Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:26, 9 December 2006

Bickerings

This should not be classified in Misplaced Pages, since WP is a 'systemic' resource and as such appears to be against the ideals of the LARC.

If anything it should be filed under a different, completely unrelated and hard to find name.

--Dunk 13:15, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

How useful.

The buildings puropose does seem to be to help people carry out various prjects and what not, as such it's a practical one. Datepalm17 10:01, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

The library at LARC is experiencing a fresh start and is free from the tyranny of structurelessness that the oxymoronic anti-systemic library imposed! NickW 22:59, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

i have changed "collectively run" to "run by a limited company". NickW, a former director should be able to verify this. Paki.tv

It is very debatable about whether WP is a systemic resource! It is a very POV to suggest that WP is systemic!#

---

I've put a POV warning as NickW's edits are not neutral! Paki.tv 18:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

1)How am I not neutral? 2)How are you neutral? 3)Who's got the axe to grind? NickW 19:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

____

Moving forward

London needs to get it's act together and come up with a reasonable solution on this entry, so that us here across the pond can get the proper information about the LARC. brooklyn_agit 22:21, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed! I cleaned up a bit, more is needed... Mujinga 21:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

removal of POV tag

i have taken out a few unsubstantiated statements, which can be replaced if backed up by a reliable source. having done that, i feel i can remove the POV tag and i hope we can expand the article again by adding more information, perhaps along the lines of the RampART Social Centre entry. Mujinga 16:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I have restored some of the material. Unfortunately the Companies House website is shut at the weekend so I could not put up the company refrence number etc. I hope to get a chance later in the week. I do not see how the entry can be along the lines of the RampART Social Centre, when LARC is basically Mark Brown's Wendy house!Harrypotter 18:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the POV, spurious self-referencing, and non-notable content. I'm also fed up of Harrypotter and his sidekick taking it upon themselves to use Misplaced Pages to promote their personal fantasy - as I was involved in setting up LARC I don't want to have to constantly fight over what's in this article. Is there an uninvolved third party out there willing to check up on all this? NickW 09:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm. I'm an uninvolved third party i guess, but i dont have much time to waste right now. This page should certainly be better .. i have tried to clean it up again. Mujinga 11:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

More on moving forwards

I have contacted NickW, Paki.tv and Harrypotter about having a discussion here as to how to make the page better. First of all it would seem to be a good idea to find out what exactly the controversy is. Where is the disagreement? I'm not really sure but it seems to revolve around different ideas of how the place is run, but that should be quite simple to state in a NPOV way. Mujinga 12:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I have made some minor alterations - i.e. claim, selected and included the company reference number.

The controversy is not necessarily simple and indeed involves issues which appeared in the national press in England wand also stuff translated in French as well. It also relates directly to the fascist infiltration of the PGA by Leonid Savin a follower of Alexander Dugin. These are of course very real issues, despite the smug complacency of NickW who seems very keen to cover the LARC/PGA collusion with fascism

2004 Controversy

Following the disruption of the London European Social Forum (ESF) meeting, on Friday October 14, 2004 the National Assembly Against Racism (NAAR) issued a statement signed by twenty signatories denouncing this intervention as "the introduction of physical violence by a very small minority to undemocratically suppress people�s views within the ESF". They then refer to two groups of "anarchists", one of which completely opposed the ESF and threatened the Mayor Ken Livingstone with violence, and the other group the Wombles who they say organised the storming of the stage on October 14.

The following day, the Metropolitan Police arrested four anarchists at Kings Cross, whilst on their way to the ESF Trafalgar Square Rally. (Lee Jaspers, secretary of NAAR is also Ken Livingston's Special Advisor on equality and policing ). Following this, Javier Ruis, singled out by the police for arrest in Trafalgar Square, issued a response PGA Considered As Neoist Invisible Theatre which highlighted his role as the technical person responsible for the computer in LARC and stated that the threats were made by the West Essex Zapatista which he claimed consisted of two people.

Although not responsible for the original Attack Red Ken posting, the West Essex Zapatista issued a statement Red Ken or Chicken Licken criticising the NAAR, the Wombles and the PGA (of which LARC is an info point).

I have to leave the computer know, but this is a start at dealing with the controversy which as you can see involves quite complex issues. More later.Harrypotter 13:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont see at all how these comments relate to the page we are discussing here, namely a page about the LARC. Please clarify. Mujinga 00:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, it had timed out on the signature. As stated above it has not been completed.Harrypotter 13:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

selected

I do not understand why this sentence: "The London Action Resource Centre supports individuals and groups taking direct action on social and ecological issues, or enagaging in other radical projects" should read "The London Action Resource Centre supports SELECTED individuals and groups taking direct action on social and ecological issues, or enagaging in other radical projects". If you want to include the word "selected" please explain your reasons here and back up the inclusion of this weasel word with a reliable source. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mujinga (talk • contribs) 00:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

actually i did sign this comment, but there was some technical problem - also only half the above message was shown. now the problem seems to be resolved Mujinga 00:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

problem explained here ... please be sure to close your tags! Mujinga 00:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I've made a change to the introduction which I think explains this issue better than the use of the so-called weasel word. Comments? Paki.tv 00:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Which change do you refer to? 'Building' to 'buiolding' or "which runs the centre in the fashion of a Bakuninist invisible dictatorship". I find both pretty strange. Neither explain at all for me to use of the word 'selected'. I am trying to assume good faith but i think you need to explain yourself better Paki.tv Mujinga 00:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

well, its not "building", comrade thats obviously a typo - but i too will try to assume good faith on your part... and i appreciate that its not easy to understand all this. the articles on bakunin and invisible dictatorship should make it clearer wahat is the politics behind the project - ... ie that a group operating behind the limited company (ie the so-called revolutionary elite) will make decisions while functioning behind a front group which claims to be non-hierarchical and self-organised. it is that bakuninist group (ie a secret organisation) which will select which groups use the building and which do not. i am not arguing for the inclusion of the so-called weasel word in any case, but to explain the situation to a better to newcommers. Paki.tv 01:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your clear answer Paki.tv. Now i can understand your reasoning i can reply that you are doing what appears to be original research. The Misplaced Pages maxim of no original research states in a nutshell "Articles may not contain any unpublished arguments, ideas, data, or theories; or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published arguments, ideas, data, or theories that serves to advance a position". Thus, the claim that the centre is run in the "fashion of a Bakuninist invisible dictatorship" needs to be backed up by a verifiable reliable source. Otherwise it is has no place in the article. Mujinga 11:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

I do not think Mujinga is NPOV, but perhaps is unfamiliar with the events which have taken place at LARC - but this does not mean NPOV. Having looked at the contribution to the Social centres page and their involvement in the decision to completely excise the discussion relation between Social centers and community centers it is clear that the person is very partisan concerning these issues. i,e,

Social Centres are distinguished from Community centers in the particular relationship social centres have toward the state and governmental institutions. While "communtiy centre" is a term used to describe any center of "public" activity, occasionally sanctioned by the state or private interests such as a corporation, social centres are characterized by their quasi-legal and sometimes illegal existence, their direct subsistence on the community that supports it and their political vision vis-a-vis the state.

This simply has no basis and runs against the terminology of social center in the early twentieth century see the section in Community Centres on Schools as Social Centres:

==Schools as social centers==

Early forms of community centres in the United States were based in schools providing facilities to inner city communities out of school hours. An early celebrated example of this is to be found in Rochester, New York from 1907. Edward J. Ward, a Presbyterian minister, joined the Extension Department at the University of Wisconsin, organising the Wisconsin Bureau of Civic and Social Development. By 1911 they organised a country-wide conference on schools as social centres. Despite concerns expressed by politicians and public officials that they might provide a focus for alternative political and social activity, the idea was successful. In 1916, with the foundation of the National Community Center Association, the term Community Center was generally used in the US. By 1918 there were community centres in 107 US cities, and in 240 cities by 1924. By 1930 there were nearly 500 centers with more than four million people regularly attending. The first of these was Public School 63, located in the Lower East Side. Clinton Childs, one of the organisers, described it as

"A Community organized about some center for its own political and social welfare and expression; to peer into its own mind and life, to discover its own social needs and then to meet them, whether they concern the political field, the field of health, of recreation, of education, or of industry; such community organization is necessary if democratic society is to succeed and endure".

bearing in mind the history of the building as an International Modern School - linked to that in New York (in which Emma Goldmann was involved and the previous discussion in which Mujinga was deeply involved, it is clear that this person has quoite distinct views on Social Centres, particularly in relation to Ramparts. - which is about 700 metres away from LARC. Further as one of the bones of contention is whether LARC is sanctioned by private interest - i.e. the millionaire Mark Brown of the Vestey family. This is not to say that Mujinga hasn't got important and interesting things to say about LARC, merely that it is no more Neutral than anyone elses and certainly I would not accept them in any way as a neutral arbitor between Nick W, myself and Paki.TV. i have to admit I gave up arguing on the Social centers page faced with a glacier of ignorance and the preposterous suggestion that only activists in recent years have been smart enough to invent the wheel as it were. (Synagogue is basically the greek for social centre and emerged fromjewish culture in the hellenised world of cAlexandria about two thousand years ago. In nthis context the emergence of the International modern Schools out of Jewish culture is particularly instructive, as it is in many ways a secularisation of jewish culture - and in this context it would be good to remember that certainly in England the idea of universal education was first implemented in Jewish circles who created their own schools lonmg beforethe educational reforms of the late nineteenth century. Of coyrse I a don't know to what extent Mujinga is actally interested in how the ral world works and the historical developemnts which have yielded contemporay society, or whetehr they prefer to reiterate the mouthings of contenmporay neo-libertarian thought, but where's there life there's hope . . . I hope. hey why not check out infed and get yuself an edikation!Harrypotter 22:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

thanks for your reply harrypotter, it makes interesting reading but i would suggest that it would be better if you could stick to the topic, namely how to improve this page about LARC rather than zooming off on tangents.

and if i might reply to some of your points...

1 of course I am not NPOV, being a human being. but i hope my edits to[REDACTED] are NPOV, because that is one of the three content policies.

2 you seem to attribute this quote to me:

"Social Centres are distinguished from Community centers in the particular relationship social centres have toward the state and governmental institutions. While "communtiy centre" is a term used to describe any center of "public" activity, occasionally sanctioned by the state or private interests such as a corporation, social centres are characterized by their quasi-legal and sometimes illegal existence, their direct subsistence on the community that supports it and their political vision vis-a-vis the state".

- i didnt write it. if you can back up your arguments with reliable sources, by all means improve this paragraph. it's pretty bad right now in my opinion! i do believe social centres are different to community centres, at least in the parlance of modern England, and my part in the debate was merely to back up brooklyn_agit and prenna when they said that you had not put forward a good enough case for the merger. see also this edit

3 if you are not happy with me arbitrating this dispute between yourself, Paki.tv and NickW, then thats fine, we can take the arbitration process another step further. i already said that i dont have much time to waste on this. but i remember i never claimed to be NPOV - just an uninvolved third party. if you make accusations, they should at least be correct.

4 let me reiterate, please stay on topic - rather than ranting about contemporay neo-libertarian thought, which im sure you can quite happily do down the pub, why not discuss on this page how to improve the LARC page?

Mujinga 02:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

moving forwards again

so harrypotter is not happy with me arbritrating this dispute (as stated above). that's fine by me, but i think we are going to have to get some more people involved and maybe even end up in formal arbitration because NickW states here that harrypotter and Paki.tv are in fact the two members previously expelled from the LARC collective. then it seems quite clear that they are following a path of destructive vandalism on this page, albeit a path more of a bizarre intellectual nature than a straightforward page blanking. i thank harrypotter and paki.tv for engaging in discussion with me, but i really dont think[REDACTED] is the best place to pursue a vendetta. i hope you both understand that.

examples of the vendetta can be found here, here, here, here, here, and here. The path followed seems to be one of inserting weasel words or of obfuscation.

Following the steps on formal dispute resolution i think we are at the stage where informal mediation has failed and therefore the next step is discussion with third parties. Now i dont think it is worth getting a third opinion because i doubt that will help very much it is not "a controversy involving only two editors". I would rather we get some sort of consensus on how to progress, so im going to make a request for comment. For any users wanting to help mediate, i do advise that this is quite a strange case! Mujinga 02:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

This page isn't an advertisment for LARC, which Mujinga, along with Nick W - a director of LARC, seems keen on making. I can understand why NickW would want to do that but wheres the rub for you Majinga? I'm just describing what i know, not researching anything - i am getting accused by all sorts of nonsence by NickW, but i will not stoop to that level to respond - but i will say that i have alot of personal experience with anarchist activity in London - i run a website on http://paki.tv where u will see that paki.tv is involved with the scene and i know a Bakuninist invisible dictatorship when i see one !!!! Paki.tv 03:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Paki.tv you may very well know what a bakuninist invisible dictatorship is. good for you. all i ask is that you give a reliable source when saying that about LARC in the LARC wikiarticle .. i think thats not asking too much. Please participate in the rfc below .. i will leave you a message now. Mujinga 03:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment: London Action Resource Centre

This is a dispute about the content of the London Action Resource Centre page 03:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• i asked for the rfc in the hope that we can get some consensus on how to break through this slow burning edit war. my thoughts on the matter are summarised here Mujinga 03:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Comments

OK, I've removed the Bakunin reference until a source is found Paki.tv 03:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

that's not quite true. i removed the reference yesterday, what you have just done is to make another destructive edit, this time justifying it as "remove non verified and promotional material", which is indeed partly true, since you were removing some material lifted from the LARC's own website, but not the whole story. in fact, this is quite a good example of your insidious campaign against the LARC, which you seem to be waging through the[REDACTED] page. i call this latest edit destructive because you have created a few grammatical errors and removed a referenced statement (which harrypotter had previously tempered with the word "claim") Mujinga 04:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

what i meant is i will not re-insetrt the bakunin reference. and what gramatical errors do u refer to? all you need do is correct them - and the statement i took out is just larc's self promotion, whoever put it there. Your accusations are what are insidious and your use of the word "destructive" is what is weasly. Paki.tv

Statement by NickW My view on the LARC article is straightforward. Users Paki.tv and Harrypotter have attempted to misrepresent LARC through their numerous edits. Their motivation appears to be one of 'revenge' as they are banned from using LARC (you'll note early contributions to the article by Harrypotter in 2003 were of a different vein). They are both consistent in their approach and methodology, favouring obscure labyrinthine 'intellectual' debate (i.e. obfuscation to confuse and wear down third parties), personal attacks and 'outing'(N.B. I don't think they always use their named accounts), self-creation of supporting 'evidence', and general misrepresentation. Interestingly enough, it was this kind of behaviour that led to their rejection from LARC.

To put LARC in context too - LARC was created by a group of people who had been involved in London RTS, the UK anti-roads movement, and the J18 coalition. The activities of this group - including myself - are very well documented in both the corporate media and the DIY media. The many groups involved in LARC are listed on the LARC website, along with more details on LARC's history. I'm happy to answer any more questions on any of the above. Thanks to Mujinga for taking this disput forward. NickW 10:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

1. National Assembly Against Racism Declaration
2. Ken Livingstone's Special Advisor Accuses White Anarchists of Racial Violence!
3. Damning criticism