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Revision as of 01:47, 10 December 2006

Outside view by Ideogram - discussion

I am quite certain nothing will come of this RfC. Ghirla's credibility with all steps of the dispute resolution process is quite low. --Ideogram 19:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. --Ideogram 19:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Is this kind of comment really the way to resolve this problem? I hardly see how further driving Ghirla into a corner will benefit anyone. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 19:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Please don't comment in the space reserved for other people's comments except to endorse. --Ideogram 19:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

rest of deleted convo, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 20:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I agreee with Ideogram that discussions should take place on talk, as is RfC custom. And Ghirla, I would like to note that such offensive edit summaries coupled with deletion of other people's legit comments are further undermining whatever 'cause' you might have.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that I know Ideogram better than you do. Furthermore, while you are known for encouraging trolls, I am known for exposing them for what the are and eliminating Misplaced Pages from this stuff (see the anti-troll barnstar on my user page :) That's what makes a difference between us. --Ghirla 09:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment: it is deplorable to turn tables and start with assassination of the complaining side. This is a RFC for Piotrus. Are you trying to say that the behavior of admin Piotrus is perfectly OK because Ghirla is not an ideal gentleman? `'mikkanarxi 17:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Formatting

I think that the page needs tweaking. What looks like a statement by Calgacus seems to have been added to an endorsement section. I don't want to wade in and tweak things myself, but figured I'd mention it here so that someone else can fix it. There are also sections that seem to have been written in the first person, but it's not clear who wrote them.

I'll probably also post my own statement, but I need to spend some time reading the rest of it first. --Elonka 23:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I pointed that out to Calgacus and he replied he is ok with moving this - will you? I prefer to limit refactoring by myself to the bare minimum here.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I think I got it... I'm not sure about the headers though. I don't spend a lot of time in RfC-land. --Elonka 07:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Trolling moved from main space

Response by Piotrus

Outside view by Goodlief

I signed the first outside view because it is true. I signed the next because... it is true.

The RFC is not neutral at all; so I will not read it.

As Elaragirl had once stated: " two have let your personal frustrations affect your ability to interact with one another." End your war with each other because quite honestly, neither of you are going to win-- you both lose. This debacle cannot get any wider; a debacle is a complete collapse or failure, and you have both failed to work together. Shame on you two, but it's ok. Now kiss and make up, please.

RFC are not meant to showcase private wars publicly. Goodlief 05:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. --Goodlief

Outside view by Samir

Peripheral to these issues. Goodlief (talk · contribs · logs) registered 24 hours ago and appears to be trolling WP:RFC -- Samir धर्म 06:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Samir धर्म 07:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Samir, he was blocked 48 h for RfC trolling. I think this has nothing to do with our particular RfC, so I moved your comments to talk. --Ghirla 09:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

No probs. -- Samir धर्म 11:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Responding to Darwinek's endorsement by Dr.Dan

Comment w/o endorsement. Like where else would have you signed? Am I right you were yawning when you signed? Dr. Dan 17:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Response to mikkanarxi comment

There are two points I'd like to address in my reply to mikkanarxi. First, it's interesting to see how my calling Ghirla 'a problematic editor' is labelled 'slander' and 'enormous character assassination'; but his calling my actions harassment, tedious editing, spamming, character assassination, abuse of admin powers, suppor of trolling, name-calling, hypocrisy and vandalism (all words from his opening statement of this RfC) is ignored. Perhaps it's just me, but the pharse 'double stadnards' seems appopriate; that said I can agree with mikkanarxki that putting me and Ghirla on a common ground seems a tad strange... -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

We are discussing you, not ghirla. Also, he is not "calling your actions", he is accusing, with quotations. As an admin, with certain powers you surely have to see the differences, otherwise your judgement will be quiestionable and questioned. `'mikkanarxi 01:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Second, you say that 'we are discussing an accusation of an admin (!) being a rogue'. Do tell where have I abused my admin powers in my conflict with Ghirla? Please also note that when few months ago Ghirla accused me of abuse of admin powers, it was explained to him by a neutral mediator that I have not abused my admin powers. PS. I am proud to add WP:ROGUE to the list of my misdeeds, just after WP:CABAL :) -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say you are abusing admin rights. I admint, there is a hair splitting between the "wikipedism" wikipedia:Rogue admin and "admin being a rogue", i.e., an "admin being a bad guy". Also please notice the word "accusation" in the phrase. In other words, again, this RFC is duscussing your behavior. And my phrase is in the context of an attempt of turning tables, resetting the focus to Ghirla, which is a deplorable tactics of defense. And a smiley is not an answer either. `'mikkanarxi 01:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Mikka, it's impossible to discuss my actions without looking at Ghirla's; especially as most of his 'arguments' are about me waging 'an anti-Ghirla crusade'; I believe this RfC would be rather moot if I could not address such concerns. Besides, I am not an RfC expert, but during his own RfC, most of Ghirla's arguments centered around the behaviour of others, particularly, Halibutt - it's a shame you did not comment there to condemn such tactics there... As for his quotations, well, if anybody follows them I am sure they will reach the same conclusion as K. Lástocska did - i.e. that most of them don't support Ghirla's interpretation.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Mr. Lástocska's opinion is far from impartial. Several months ago, I saw him engage in Russophobia on WP:FAC and told him so. It is sort of cheap to cite established Ghirlaphobes as neutral observers. --Ghirla 08:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Ghirla, is this the WP:FAC to which you refer in your allegation?István 21:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo, if you believe you have so many opponents intent on making your life miserable that they merit their own name ("Ghirlaphobes"), I urge you to review WP:CABAL and to consider examining your own behavior. Appleseed (Talk) 14:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Appleseed please, denying that there are Ghirlaphobes on board, is like saying that Piotrus is not the self-appointed "leader" of the non-existent Cabal. Dr. Dan 04:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Does that mean that the supporters of this RFC are Piotruphobes? :-) Appleseed (Talk) 04:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure some are, while some genuinely take issue with P.P.'s actions and lack of neutrality in his capacity as an administrator, and have nothing against his persona. I truly think that the issue of his being an administrator and his related behavior in that capacity, has a lot more to do with this RfC than most Ghiraphobes will acknowledge, ever. Dr. Dan 14:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

From the looks of this RFC, the major complaint isn't anything Piotrus has done, but the ongoing bickering between him and Ghirlandajo. The rest of it is just the same old complaints from the usual "Piotruphobes", few but vocal. Appleseed (Talk) 15:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I am lost, please clarify - you belong to Ghirlaphobes or Piotruphobes?. Thanks. M.K. 20:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Once again, the argument "He pissed on the carpet, so I can do the same" is a no-go. I didn't comment of Ghirla's RfC because I was up to the eyebrows in shit from our Romanian colleagues at this time. Still, on some other occasions I did comment that Ghirla has to cool down. I am not going to search for quotes mong my 60K+ edits, since it is not me who is being discussed here. `'mikkanarxi 05:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Admin's abuse: yes, it is among accusations: gratuious unblocking of Molobo. So you indeed earned the right to proudly wear your Rot Front template. `'mikkanarxi 05:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Riiight, a year old unblocking which had nothing to do with Ghirla... this is 2006, not 2005, Mikka. Do you have any 'abuse of admin powers' issues from this year, or any specific example of my behaviour from the last few months you want to discuss, or are we going to turn this into 'once upon a time, you made a mistake, and I will remind you of it till the stars go cold'? :)-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I have not provided any recent examples because I don't see you perform any administrative actions, in general. They are limited to rollbacking edits of those users you are in conflict with. --Ghirla 08:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

You have not provided any recent examples because there aren't any, despite how many times you will claim otherwise. Anybody can review both my contributions and my logs. Looking at the days before you filled this RfC (i.e. before the 12:14 6th December), you can see I used rollback several times reverting vandalism: 03:42, December 6; 17:45, December 5; 17:44, December 5; 13:02, December 5; 12:44, December 5; 01:20, December 5; 01:15, December 5... none of those rollbacks was against you, and no matter how often you will repeat that I use rollback only on you it will not make it true. As for admin logs, on the Dec 5 I deleted two articles (redirect and speedy); none created by you. I am afraid the 'real' evidence does not back up your claim of 'Piotrus anti-Ghirla crusade' - as can be seen by anyone who looks at the diffs you provide (when you provide them).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

LOL!! Ghirla, it's "Ms. Lástocska"! :) (and how the hell am I Russophobic? I speak Russian, my favorite writers are Pushkin and Lermontov, favorite composers are Shostakovich, Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev and Rahkmaninov, I find Russian history and culture fascinating. You'll notice even my username is in some strange form of magyarized Russian. Just because someone disagrees with you yourself doesn't make them Russophobic.) K. Lástocska 16:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't feel too bad. Ghirlandajo flings accusations of Russophobia rather easily (, , , , ) and hence I do not believe he takes them very seriously. Why, he even believes User:M.K, his partner in this RFC, is a Russophobe as well (you can't help recognziing M.K.'s Russophobic hand in this article). Note that this does not prevent him and M.K. from being friends. Balcer 20:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

A major comment by Piotrus ('Reply 2')

On the main page of this RfC I have replied to particular issues raised by Ghirla. Since then I have noticed in several comments that some users think there is a 'Polish-Russian war' on Misplaced Pages; such a view seems also to dominate Ghirla's opening statement. I'd like to take the opportunity here to address this 'big picture' issue. Simply put: there is no 'Polish-Russian war' on Wiki; the only 'war' that may occasionaly surface is a 'Polish-Ghirla war'. Let me elaborate.

Granted, there are many controversial issues related to the history of both countries, but I - and others - have been working long and hard to set such historical issues besides us and concentrate on writing an neutral encyclopedia. As a user who has written a good part of 18 featured articles I have had on many occasions collaborated extensivly with our Russian collegues. Of course, both sides have different POVs - that is only to be expected - but we have time and again worked to succesfully find a middle ground. If a 'Polish-Russian Wiki war' truly existed, we would not have been able to feature articles like Polish-Soviet War, Battle of Warsaw (1920), Polish–Muscovite War (1605–1618), Warsaw Uprising (1794) or Katyn massacre or History of Poland (1945–1989), to name just a few, and not to mention many Good Articles and other succesfull collaborations. As I prefer facts, here are some differences where our work is supported by Russian editors (Alex Bakharev, Kazak, Kuban Kazak), or other users known for their expertise on Russian subject (Zscout370, 172, Grafikm fr). Of course, for an article to reach FA-level it takes many months of balancing between pro-Polish, pro-Russian or pro-whatever POVs; however as the above examples show this can be achieved and majority of Polish and Russian editors (who are by no means 'barred' from editing them by any 'cabal') have no problem with working together; we often have long debates on talk, but the end result (FAs) speak for itself (unless one would claim that a 'Polish cabal' subverted the FA process...). This I hope is enough to prove there is no conflict (war - sic(!)) between Polish and Russian editors.

That said, there are however exceptions, when certain users, instead of seeking a middle ground NPOV compromise assume the stance 'my POV is neutral, your is propaganda' and refuse to change their views even by an inch. This is a stance often taken by Ghirla, who for example reffered to our newest FA (History of Solidarity) as propaganda and to an older one a monument to the Polish POV interpretation of history (both passed with a very wide marigin). Ghirla, whose vast knowledge in the fields of Russian architecture and art is amazing, has unfortunatly some extremly strong feelings when it comes to Polish-Russian relations, views that are fortunatly rarely supported by other editors (Russian or otherwise) - for example, few would support his claim that Katyn massacre was staged by CIA... (but it explains why he objected to the FA as noted above). That is not to said, let me stress, that those articles contained no pro-Polish POV and that they were not at some point (constructivly) criticized and then improved by Russian editors; collaboration with neutral Russian (and other) editors ameliorated such problem time and again. Ghirla, however, as seen in this RfC, tries to build upon the fact that Polish editors has an undeniable pro-Polish bias, and refuses to acknowledge that we are willing to compromise (succesfully, as FA show); I find his portayal of the situation as some 'wiki Polish-Russian war' extremly misleading. What there is is an occasional 'Polish-Ghirla war'. Let me make another disclaimer: often Ghirla 'has a point', i.e. the article he criticizes contains pro-Polish bias (hence he is sometimes supported in discussions by other editors). However instaed of discussing the issue in a civil way or providing sources, Ghirla's contributions to Poland-related articles are usually very minor, and revolve around addition of unsourced, controversial and extremly POVed statements (per 'Katyn is not a massacre and was probably staged by CIA' as shown above), then accusing editors (usually, Polish) who try to NPOV them of trolling/vandalism/nationalism, and when he finally gives up on changing content we often see another round of tag warring. This recent article is a good example of the most recent situation developing along those lines that culminated in this RfC (I was so annoyed by his offensive comments at talk and edit summaries there that I took the issue to WP:PAIN; he in turn decided it's a proof our our 'anti-Ghirla campaign' and took it here).

Finally, several editors suggested that we should make peace. I'd dearly love to settle this conflict. I made many gestures of good will, such as asking him to join a mediation related to one of our conflicts (his reply and mediator's reply to his reply, after which he never posted there again); I also refusing to support an ArbCom againt Ghirla few months ago by declaring that 'I have no beef with him and he was behaving better' (this was noted by other editors). As for his reply to my gestures - well, the RfC sais it all, I believe.

To sum it up: yes, Polish editors have pro-Polish POV. No, it is not any more excessive then any other POV by an average group of contributors out there. No, we have no conflicts with Russian editors other then those that can be expected when two or more groups negotiate towards NPOV on an average Wiki article; we have featured many FAs which is the primary mission of Wiki - in other words our collaboration is very succesfull. Ghirla's behaviour on Poland-related article's is far from constructive. He tends to portray average, normal conflicts as a major war, and accusses all who disagree with him of extreme incivility. His accusation that Lástocska is a 'Russophobe' is a perfect example of his behaviour. As seen in my FAs, I am always willing to compromise and negotiate. If anybody can convince Ghirla to take our hand - i.e. stop insulting us and start negotiating - this would solve the issue. The only way I and other Polish editors could compromise more is if we would stop editing Poland-related articles entirly.

Uff, that was one long post...-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It was long and really didn't say anything meaningful. Dr. Dan 14:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, Piotrus continues to hijack the discussion of his own incivity and admin abuse to content disputes. I'm not going to follow suit. I assure him that his spamming of public boards in order to have his articles promoted to featured or, if he fails to achieve this aim, his harrassing of our FA director merits a separate RfC. Suffice it to say for the present that Piotr uses WP:FA for propaganda as well. Once the article is promoted by a crowd of Polish voters, it becomes (in his view) sacred and intangible to every efforts aimed at attenuating its POV. --Ghirla 14:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus, what about your energetic efforts to have every Russo-Polish conflict named an "invasion" if it is started by Russia and a "war" if it is started by Poland? What about your contininuing claims that Russia did not exist before the 18th century? What about your efforts to conceal from our readers the concentration camps of Pilsudski's Poland? To mask Polish imperialism as its striving for freedom? To forget about the Polish-Nazi alliance against Czechoslovakia and the Polish participation in the partition of that country? To represent Soviet victories as the Polish ones? To purge from the project images documenting the Soviet liberation of Poland in 1944? Well, there are too many content issues and I would not allow you to hijack the discussion there. I will only note that I never write articles on Polish history (when not provoked to), while you do, representing yourself as an expert in Russian history and interfering into such topics as Russian Enlightenment with strange accusations of Polonophobia. I also never insert Russian names into the articles on Polish towns and cities (such as Warsaw, which was a Russian city for a century), while your friends regularly provoke conflicts by adding Polish spelling to the articles on such towns as Smolensk, Pskov, Trubchevsk, etc. I urge all participants to stop discussing content and to return to the questions of xenophobia, name-calling, vandal-calling, etc. --Ghirla 15:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus' post was long indeed, but summarizes well the situation. The wiki way - as far as I can understand it - is to present the sources and to negotiate and to balance different POVs. Sometimes, to make a gesture of good will. This is, generally, what I perceive on Piotrus side. On the other hand, I can not admit the same for Ghirla. When in POV conflict, he easily gets into a fight, not necessarily in the Polish-Rushian relation context. This is perceived as uncivil, a recent example (by Atlant (talk · contribs)) can be found here. This is not the wiki way. That's a big difference. --Beaumont (@) 17:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Beaumont, you seem like a nice man, or a nice lady. When you are able to criticize P.P.'s behavior and antics on Misplaced Pages objectively, then you are welcome to lecture one and all on the wiki way. But if in an almost knee-jerk reaction you are going to mask your own lack of objectivity and neutrality with that kind of "balderdash" as posted above, you might as well lecture us on the milky way, instead of the wiki way. My problem with these whole counter productive circuses is they reek of a desire to censor and to propagandize on Misplaced Pages. Reading the histories (thankfully they are there and will be for a long time), it's so bizarro that almost everything the Polish "victims of Ghirlandajo" accuse him of doing is dealt out even more so to it's smaller neighbor, Lithuania, by them. Nor is Germany immune to these pot shots. The issue being discussed is Piotrus' role as an administrator and a contributor to these matters, not a recapitulation of irrellevant he loves me, he loves me not anecdotes. Dr. Dan 01:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Responce by Ghirla to István endorsment of Biruitorul

Per RfC customs and rules, long comments and questions should be started on talk, to prevent main RfC page from turning into a discussion page. I have moved a newly started discussion here, with a note in the relevant place to inform a reader that there is a debate on talk.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Support The label "sad" is understatement - like two people who are otherwise OK but cant get along, like ex-spouses in who's inane squabbles you really dont want to get involved ...but a forced moral equivalency is not correct here - this mud doesnt stick 50/50. To keep positive about it, Piotrus behaves correctly in those instances where I have had involvement - indeed admirably in one case (failed FAC) where he kept his poise under undue provocation. I'm happy to put my two cents in for his defense. István 20:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I assume that you refer to the first nomination of the History of Solidarity. By claiming that Piotrus "kept his poise under undue provocation", do you mean his lengthy harrassing of our FA director that followed? --Ghirla 15:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

That is about as far from harrassment as Mexico is from China. — Deckiller 17:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Yup. And giving the harrassment label is just another example of his typical attitude that I described above... --Beaumont (@) 18:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree--that wasn't harrassment, that was discussion. That's what civilized people do when they get into disagreements. e.g. "please explain your reasoning", "I'm trying to understand my own POV", etc. A request for someone to explain their reasoning is not a challenge, it's a request for clarification so the parties involved could come to some consensus.... K. Lástocska 17:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this represents a common tactic used by Ghirla - calling non-controversial edits harassment, vandalism, trolling, character assassination. I strongly urge people to follow the diffs he provides and see for themselves if his accusations are backed up by them. As I said in my reply: unless you take his word for it, his 'evidence' does not support his accusation.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Users who don't endorse this summary:

1. Apart from Mikka, JzG, and Calgacus, all other users who have commented on this RfC so far are newbies, mostly from Eastern European countries formerly dominated by Russia. Judging from their comments, they have little understanding of what's going on between Polish and German/Russian/Lithuanian editors and (unlike Piotrus) I actually hear their names for the first time. If their interactions with Piotrus have been uniformly positive, good for them. What is objectionable, is that they fail to distinguish admin abuse from content disputes and basically hijack the discussion of Piotr's incivility to discussing content. That Biruitorul (who has slightly more experience in the project than the others mentioned above) seems unable to spot admin abuse is particularly frustrating, given his ambitions to become an admin. I emphatically object to placing me on the same footing with Piotrus. First of all, he is a sysop, while I'm not, so there is no comparison here. Secondly, I never called him names (let alone despite his protests), I never passed secretive communications with other editors in Russian language, I never agitated for Piotrus to be blocked on public boards, and I never encouraged the activity of edit-warring trolls as a sort of ram to push anti-Polish POV. Those who fail to see the crux of the matter should understand that their comments don't help to defuse the situation. On the contrary, they may encourage Piotrus to increase his level of aggression against myself. --Ghirla 14:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo, don't you think it's a little disingenuous to start an RFC and then complain when the comments disagree with yours? Also, why does it matter that some of the editors are "from Eastern European countries formerly dominated by Russia". Is there now a multinational "anti-Ghirlandajo cabal"? Is everyone who disagrees with you a "Ghirlaphobe"? Appleseed (Talk) 16:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Whether I've spotted admin abuse or not is immaterial. I have spotted unfortunate behaviour on both sides. The fact is that neither of you is 100% innocent, and you both ought to step back and make peace. Be men. Biruitorul 18:02, 9 December 2006 (UTC)