Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:50, 17 December 2006

Archives (dates are close, not exact)
(1) Jan 1-Sep 15 '04	(2) Feb 1-Nov 13 '04
(3) Mar 20 -Aug 17 '05	(4) Aug 19-Aug 30 '05
(5) Sep 4-Sep 18 '05	(6) Sep 25-Dec 3 '05
(7) Dec 10-Jan 9 '06	(8) Jan 9-Jan 19 '06
(9) Jan 19-Mar 27 '06	(10) Apr 2-Aug 2 '06
(11) Aug 9-Sep 20 '06	(12) Sep 21-Oct 22 '06
(13) Oct 21-Nov 1 '06	(14) Nov 1-Nov 11 '06
(15) Nov 9-Dec 4 '06	(16) Dec 5-Dec 11 '06
(17) Dec 11-Dec 13 '06	(18) Dec 13-?
Currently inactive and soon to be deleted: "Association of Reference Desk Volunteers"

deletion issues

• I think this problem is already solved. Anyone who made a habit of removing things just because they don't like it would find themselves buried in requests to cut that out. Ned Wilbury 17:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• And what happens if they ignore those ? StuRat 18:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• If we must, we continue with dispute resolution. Also, if one person is unreasonably removing things, others will put them back, and this won't be controversial. Anyone who insists on edit warring over such a thing will only make themselves look like the unreasonable one. Editors who continue to be unable to work well with others may find themselves ignored, or even blocked from editing. Ned Wilbury 19:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

For one data point on controversial deletion, see the third through sixth comments at User talk:Ummit#Reference desk.

My take on the propriety of deletion (though I haven't taken the time to research chapter and verse on this) is that we've got a general policy somewhere that says that all editors should (in general) be highly reluctant to delete information outright. My feeling also is that deletion is much more appropriate in article space (where it may well be combined with a move or an addition somewhere else) than in talk space. My feeling is finally that the Reference Desk is much more like talk space than article space (or even, for that matter, than project space). But as I say, I haven't researched these arguments fully, so I'm not sure how well they'd stand up, and I'm also not sure how to rebut the oft-repeated argument that "deletion anywhere is acceptable if it helps the project". —Steve Summit (talk) 19:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• Many of those doing the excessive deletions are Admins, however, so blocking seems unlikely, especially if there isn't any actual policy they've violated ("Hey, I'm just 'following the wiki process', by deleting everything I dislike."). StuRat 19:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• Admins can be blocked, same as anyone. As for policy violations, excessive reverting is already severely frowned upon and is a common cause of blocks. Keep in mind that it takes at least two to edit war. See WP:1RR. If you're talking about some specific edit war that actually happened, I'm not familiar with that situation. I'd be surprised if anything like that continued for any significant period of time- blocks for excessive reverting are not usually controversial. Ned Wilbury 19:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

(added after a couple of edit conflicts) Frankly, I don't think we're going to be able to assemble a one-size-fits-all procses to remove comments or impose sanctions. Anything we put together will be too rigid, prone to wikilawyering, and discourage people from using common sense to resolve disputes. I suspect that we're actually taking the wrong approach by trying to discuss a complicated process for removing problem edits when the crux of the issue is problematic behaviour. I expect that if someone makes a habit of making unhelpful or inappropriate remarks on the Desk, other editors will point out why this is a problem—hopefully with specific reference to general Misplaced Pages policy (especially WP:CIV) or with a specific explanation of how the remarks interfere with the purpose of the Desk. (This is why it's so important to have discussion and general agreement on whether or not I've correctly and clearly described our purpose, principles, and the attendant guidelines.)

I also expect that if an editor considers a remark so egregiously out of place that they immediately remove it, that editor will explain his actions to the original poster of the comment, again with explanation for why it was removed (probably with reference to WP:NPA or severe breaches of WP:CIV). If a remark is removed without good justification, I would be very surprised if the editor who removed it didn't get an earfull. Anyone who edit wars over something like this – whether they're 'right' or 'wrong' – is asking for trouble.

In any case (inappropriate remarks or overzealous removal of comments) I expect that if this informal process of reminders (and if necessary, warnings) doesn't effect a modification of behaviour, there will be intervention by admins. This is how every other dispute resolution process works where one party refuses to cooperate (attempted discussion and informal reminders of policy, warning, admin intervention, and possible arbitration); I don't see a reason for the Ref Desk to reinvent the wheel. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

You nailed it. But, I think you (and others) have nailed this before, too. The common response so far is "But, things happened that there was disagreement over, thus proving that we need more specific rules." I can't think of a new way to answer this objection, but I hope somebody comes up with one. Ned Wilbury 19:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I have answered my own question. Rules are a way of writing down accepted practice in a generalized way. If there's still wide disagreement over specific incidents, this means that right now, "accepted practice" is too unclear to be generalized. If we cannot agree on what to do in specific incidents, we obviously cannot agree on a generalized set of rules, so trying to create such a ruleset would be pointless. This makes sense to me, but I don't know if it will sound convincing to those editors who want specific rules. Ned Wilbury 19:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree and I too think that behavior is a big part and wikipedia has plenty of experience in and mechanisms for dealing with behavior. Just remember that there are also substantive issues on the RD not covered by general policy; use of OR/opinion not fully cited being the big one that comes to mind (this is probably most an issue on the Misc Desk where I do all my RD work). I know that Ten is aware of these; I just don't want it thought that all the issues we are addressing are already adequately covered. The RD does need some purpose-specific guidance. --Justanother 19:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's a question. Several weeks ago, well before I was aware of the whole Reference Desk policy brouhaha, I remember discovering that a reference desk comment, that I thought was useful and appropriate, had been summarily deleted by SCZenz. I was about to complain on his talk page, but first I came across his longwinded defense of his policy at User:SCZenz/Reference desk removals, and I got the impression he was so sure of himself that it wasn't worth complaining, and on that day I wasn't up for a long debate, so I let the matter drop without comment. (Yes, this was wimpy of me, I know.) But since then, as I gather, there have been complaints about the summary deletions by SCZenz, and also about the deletions by Friday and Hipocrite. I suspect that the deletions by these three users (and perhaps others) were among the primary instigations of the brouhaha. Now, the key question (for me) is: how many people felt the deletions were inappropriate, how many of them (unlike me) complained, and how many (besides the three deleters) supported the deletion? In short, was there any attempt to build consensus around those deletions, and if not, were any of the normal dispute resolution processes attempted? (Sorry for all the questions, I know I'm still missing a lot of recent history.) —Steve Summit (talk) 19:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that was the source of the issue (although Admin:Rick Block tried something similar before Admin:SCZenz and then Admin:Friday and later Admin:Radiant! and then User:Hipocrite got involved). The problem was that they didn't feel the need to get a consensus for deletions, saying anyone can delete anything they like "as part of the wiki process". Many Ref Desk volunteers disagreed, and thought such issues should be based on consensus. This led to an attempt to come up with some basic rules (initiated by me, now at /rules), with the goal of gaining a consensus and putting them "into force". The people mentioned previously strongly took issue with developing any rules, then created a competing set of rules, now at /guideline, which were far more strict on what could be posted and far more lenient on what could be deleted, essentially allowing anyone to delete anything they dislike, without consensus, as before. This probably brings us up to where you came in. One way to characterize the disagreement is inclusionists ("leave everything in unless doing so causes more harm than removing it") versus deletionist ("delete everything that you don't like"). StuRat 20:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Some uses of the word "consensus" above should probably read "supermajority vote". One point that was brought up by some was that many standard Misplaced Pages practices are either unknown or unaccepted by some other editors who wanted to make these exact rules. So, the people who kept arguing that "this is not how we do things here" ended up not making very convincing arguments in the eyes of some others. Ned Wilbury 20:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that argument looked like pure bureaucracy gone amuck, the "we have to do it that way because we've always done it that way" argument (when, actually, the Ref Desk has always had it's own "unwritten" rules). For example, the "no original research" rule, applied strictly to the Ref Desk, would eliminate half of the correct answers given. StuRat 20:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

But weren't the people saying "this isn't how we do things" the SAME ones saying "we don't need firm rules"? I don't get it- are they advocating bureaucracy, or common sense? Surely you can't advocate both at the same time? Ned Wilbury 20:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

You guys may be talking about two different things. StuRat's talking about Radiant saying, "you can't build consensus by holding votes, that's not how we do things." Ned, what were you talking about? —Steve Summit (talk) 20:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

StuRat, your description of inclusionists and deletionists above is inaccurate and unfair. I think nearly everyone agrees that we should leave things there unless removing it is better than leaving it there. There's simply some surprisingly wide disagreement over specific cases. Show me any editor who thinks "I should delete whatever I don't like" and I'll show you someone with NO understanding of how Misplaced Pages works. Such an editor would not last very long here- they would be blocked in a hurry. Ned Wilbury 20:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed that the polarazition is inappropriate. But I have a question and a comment:

• How accurate do other people think StuRat's characterization of the early stages of the deletion debate is? Ned Wilbury has already cast doubt on the characterization of the deleter's defense as "I can delete anything I like as part of the wiki process". But, rightly or wrongly, I get the impression that the complainers felt that they couldn't (say) just bring a complaint against the deleters at RfC, because the deleters claimed they had general Misplaced Pages policy on their side. So, rather than going to dispute resolution, the complainers set about trying to clearly document the ways in with the Reference Desk might be different, such that "general Misplaced Pages policy" didn't necessarily apply. And we know what happened next. But now it's being said, with some justification (heck, I've said it myself ) that we don't need lots of new rules, we just need to use the normal dispute resolution process if people start acting out-of-hand. But I would have total sympathy with the complainers (the complainers about deletion, that is) if they said, "We were already going to do that, but we were told it wouldn't work." —Steve Summit (talk) 20:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
• You said, "Show me any editor who thinks 'I should delete whatever I don't like'". That is precisely the impression that User:Hipocrite has given me. (Apologies if I'm wrong, Hipocrite, but that is the impression I've gotten.) —Steve Summit (talk) 20:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• Here are some things I don't like, that I think are not helpful to Misplaced Pages, that I have failed to delete - Derek Smart, Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center, Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11, WP:AMA, WP:PAIN, this question with little value, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Seabhcan/Proposed_decision, Misplaced Pages:Esperanza/Admin_coaching among SCORES of other pages. I delete things when I think deleting those things net/net makes the encyclopedia better. That's the only standard I have used, and the only standard I will use. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, let me reword the deletionist POV as "I can delete anything, without consensus, so long as I think doing so improves Misplaced Pages". I've also seen it extended to "I have a duty to delete anything, without consensus, if I think doing so improves Misplaced Pages". StuRat 20:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

If I saw inappropriate deletions I put them back. --Justanother 19:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem is finding them. If the person who does the inappropriate deletion doesn't notify anyone, and doesn't even put "deletion" in the history comment, it's unlikely that anyone will notice it. This is a fundamental diff versus talk pages, the volume of changes is so high that the edit on that section may only show up under the watchlist for a minute or two before being superseded. StuRat 19:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

(unindent, responding to Steve Summit's query) I guess you could put me in the strong deletionist camp, i supported all the deletions (at least the ones i saw and can recall) and thought they improved the reference desk. None of them individually needed consensus beforehand and none of them should have been reverted. That said, all in combination, and w/ the blocks and all the new faces showing up caused problems. In retrospect there should have been more effort to convince everyone that there was a problem before taking action. It's probably unhelpful now tho keep looking back at past events. If we need to assign some blame for the current difficulties then lets just blame the system and move on eh?EricR 16:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Call for Suggestions on How to Appropriately Deal with Factual Inaccuracies in Responses

I'm open to any and all suggestions. What is the most appropriate way to deal with factually incorrect responses, (as well as their insertion into wiki articles on the subject) keeping in mind that the FIRST PILLAR of Misplaced Pages is that it is above all Encyclopedia, and more particularly, that as an Encyclopedia, according to Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, factual accuracy is of utmost importance?

The most recent example of this ocurred here: ] in response to a question asking for the origin of the prefix "step" as in "step-parent".

Apparently I don't seem to be able to deal with these problems in a manner that is acceptable to many other users.

Once again, I'm open to any and all suggestions as to how to better deal with the matter. Loomis 17:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Stu, where are we discussing policy now? --Justanother 17:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you asking how this question would be addressed by the /rules ? It's clearly not a case of "disruption", so a speedy delete is out, that leaves notifying the author of the "incorrect info" politely on their talk page and requesting that they remove it. If that fails, it could be brought up here, and, if there is consensus, it could then be removed. StuRat 17:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Just that the way he worded the header and question was as a call for policy issue with his specific case as an example, not as "can anyone help me with a situation." Loomis, nothing wrong with what you did; but since we are in the process of drafting policy then it be best if we keep the draft policy discussion in one place so I was asking Stu where that might be. --Justanother 18:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't personally think there is a need for a specific rule on dealing with potential factual errors in responses, but, if you disagree, let me know which rule you would like to propose and I will add it to the talk page for /rules, then see what type of response it gets. StuRat 18:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

My copy of Collins also has the 'steop' etymology, so it appears that this is not a straightforward factual error, but rather a matter of dispute. I'm not clear why Loomis thinks that www.etymonline.com is so obviously the final authority. The answer to the question, surely, is that alternatives, with supporting sources, should be given, which is what has happened in Loomis's example. Yours, Sam Clark 17:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, don't remove something because you "know" it's wrong. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, let the person who asked the question decide. Presumably, the one with the correct answer (in cases where there is a single correct answer) will be able to present better evidence and references, and thus convince the audience they are correct. StuRat 17:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I also have a source giving "not a blood relative", the transposition of vowels and Old English vs. Middle English vs. Anglo-Saxon i can't comment on. What research did you do to determine this was one of many "Factual Inaccuracies" on the desk? And why did you remove part of my response and sig ?EricR 17:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This kind of dispute is, in my opinion, a good reason to be conservative in our answers and stick with what's in an article or a reputable source. If the sources disagree, that's fine- let the reader decide how to interpret this. Ned Wilbury 17:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I see this type of dispute as a good reason not to remove posts you disagree with, without consensus, as they may be correct after all. StuRat 17:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure, saying "I disagree with so-and-so because.." and giving a better answer if preferable. However my point was that these disagreements can be AVOIDED in the first place if we're more conservative with our answers. Ned Wilbury 17:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added another link to this question, confirming the accuracy of the first definition given. However, people, there is another, more serious issue underlying this whole thread. Please examine the history of the Humanities page. The response by User Looms was conceived as yet another assault on my integrity, by inference, rather than by name. To the original question I flagged up the Misplaced Pages Stepfamilies page, which, amongst other things, provided the definition I expanded on. User Loomis went to that page, removed the definition without explanation, and then posted some offensive personal remarks on the Humanities page, subsequently removed by User Eric, who advised Loomis of the action taken. I cannot imagine a greater breach of Misplaced Pages protocol than to airbrush out part of the article and then accuse another user of 'making up' a response. But with Eric's actions I saw no need for me to make further comment on this attempt at manipulation. However, here we are again. The first time User Loomis attacked me I was angry; now I find the whole business wretchedly sad. I can see him pouring over all of my contributions in a spirit of petty spite, looking for weak spots. But User Loomis, it is obvious to me, judging from his spluttering prose, his switches from one extreme to another, his inability to express himself with detachment, his lack of control, is suffering from some deep rooted emotional problem, and I say this with no sense of elation or satisfaction. I would simply ask all those who joined in his previous attempt at a witch-hunt against me to consider this matter in a little more depth. It is sad for me, sad for Misplaced Pages; but it's saddest of all for Loomis. Clio the Muse 20:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Please don't say things like "suffering from some deep rooted emotional problem", that looks like a personal attack. Also, can you provide diffs to illustrate what you said Loomis did ? StuRat 20:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

You saw what was said about me on this page under My Recent Remarks etc., which now appears in the Ref. Desk/Archive 17, item 19, and what was originally posted on the Humanities page itself, and still appears on this users talk page under Hi Loomis, some of it of a foul nature. You allowed all of this to pass without comment, even when I pointed out that it was contrary to Misplaced Pages policy. More than that, you added fuel to the fire. What I have written above is descriptive, and mild in contrast, based on my observations of Loomis' erratic conduct. As far as the present debate is concerned, please examine the page history of the Humanities desk itself and the article on Stepfamilies, then you will see what I mean. I would suggest, StuRat, that you try to take an objective view or step out of the matter altogether. And please do not take that as an attack. Clio the Muse 23:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Leaving the character analysis aside (which, whether I agree with it or not, is inappropriate here, and will likely be branded as a breach of NPA), this sounds like very bad behavior on Loomis's part. Is Clio's description accurate? If so, Loomis should be asked to apologize, and not to do that again. —Steve Summit (talk) 21:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Steve. I will not get, nor do I expect an apology. But I would ask other editors to keep this matter, and Loomis' future conduct, under close observation. I have made it clear that I will enter into no debate or conflict with him on any matter. Clio the Muse 23:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Loomis's actions look bad at first site but if his/her definition is correct (with the other being at fault) then his/her actions have been quite correct as regards "step-" if there are other issues eg politeness/tone of response/other edits I am not aware of them. Given that we now have two entymological roots for step I have made a temporary (?) change to the stepfamilies page mentioning both.

I suggest that all of you now make sure the stepfamily page is correct using its talk page - I'm no expert on etymology so I can't guarantee what I have done is correct.

that aside time for a pun - "step families are called such since they are always turning up on the steps (or steppes if you live in central asia)" <end of pun>. Hopefully everyone was having a bad day and no real offence has been taken or meant.87.102.8.141 21:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well this explains why there was no definition at the link provided by clio, that did surprise me. It was incorrect for Loomis to excise that defintion from the Stepfamily article without replacing it with another. I certainly read Loomis' reply to cleo as as an unwarranted snipe and now I find out the defintion was excised too i have to wonder what other agenda is going on here. Maybe Loomis should just avoid Clio for a bit? David D. (Talk) 22:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I certainly hope so, David. But please keep this under watch. Clio the Muse 23:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Oxford English Dictionary: "Step-" - "Old English steop- -orphan".

Websters Encyplopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language 1996 ed.: "Steop-"

I don't know about you guys, but for me, when Oxford, Webster and even etymonline.com all agree on the etymology of a word, i.e., that it's got nothing to do with lack of blood relation, and all to do with some sense of sorrow, I tend to accept their authority.

BTW, who's "Collins"? Loomis 02:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

You don't know about Collins?

By the way, all above is a strawman argument. The point is HOW you went about it. David D. (Talk) 03:35, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's not forget that this is an encyclopedia. Anchoress 03:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I like it. :) May be we should write a letter to Collins about their 'factual Inaccuracies ? David D. (Talk) 03:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm proud to say that I'm able to admit that I've got no clue what you guys are talking about. Could you perhaps fill me in? :) Loomis 04:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Collins is the Collins English Dictionary, which happens to be the etymological dictionary I have on my desk. There are two separate issues here, which are being muddled. 1. Authorities disagree about the etymology of 'stepchild' and related terms. This is a useful discovery, because it allows us to improve the encyclopedia. More importantly, 2. Loomis is continuing his hate-campaign against Clio. His personal attacks against her on the Humanities reference desk and continuing here are despicable, as is the support he's received from some other reference desk regulars, notably StuRat. They should apologise and withdraw these personal attacks. Clio has been accused, in particularly over-the-top and offensive language, of deliberately giving wrong answers to refdesk questions. There is no evidence whatever for this accusation. And now, when Clio points out Loomis's erratic and aggressive behaviour, we get StuRat warning her about personal attacks! Double standard, much? Yours, Sam Clark 14:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The warning about personal attacks was justified; you'll notice that I had independently made it, also.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Loomis should not be attacking Clio; Clio should not be publicly attributing psychological motives to Loomis. And, Loomis should not be castigating Clio for scholarly inaccuracy when she based a statement of hers on information she found on a Misplaced Pages page, information which Loomis later deleted. —Steve Summit (talk) 14:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Etymology is tricky, something we shouldn't speculate on without a reliable source to back us up. I have trouble enough understanding how words are used today—let alone a thousand years ago. An O.E. steop- w/ connotations of loss and M.E. steop- meaning unrelated by blood are not mutually exclusive. Loomis could have edited stepfamily in an effort to improve the article. He could have simply made a cut-and-paste error while editing, but has so far failed to explain. Plainly tho, the only reason he responded to the question at all was to attack Clio. I would have thought the first episode had provided enough embarrassment that he would discontinue his behavior. Apparently not. Loomis, you are behaving badly, steop.EricR 15:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it 'steop' does not mean 'unrelated by blood' at all - that was the original problem, neither does 'stoep' mean anything (except being a dutch version of step) - if there is any evidence for 'steop' or 'stoep' meaning 'unrelated by blood' could you please link to it for me so I can re-correct the stepfamily article. (and stoep hounding Loomis - as least his answer was right! manners aside)87.102.4.180 15:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do correct entymology in stepfamily, it is bugging me.EricR 15:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Done, but when you see some error like that which makes your skin crawl, feel free to correct it yourself. StuRat 15:51, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

You're right of course, i was making a point and instead should have just fixed the article.EricR 16:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

If the situation is this bad maybe you should create a list of the offending remarks and file a request for comment Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment. This page is for the reference desk, so why not take this personal dispute somewhere else where it can be sorted out. P.S. have any of you attempted to correct the stepfamily article - as it was originally at fault - I'm no etymology expert.87.102.4.180 15:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC) You could also try Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee perhaps.87.102.4.180 15:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Though I agree that this discussion is misplaced here, I beg to differ: No one is hounding Loomis. Loomis asked for comments and received them. ---Sluzzelin 15:35, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

There was no fault on the stepfamily page except one of omission. It only had one of the arguments for the origins of step, rather than the full complement. David D. (Talk) 22:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to thank all those who have commented on my observations and concerns. It is not my intention to attack or malign anyone. But I now feel that my contributions are being 'stalked' with malevolent purpose. This will not stop me. But I would ask all editors, regardless of how they may feel about me personally, to keep this sorry situation under close scrutiny. Clio the Muse 01:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

When you say 'stalked', do you mean replied to or commented on?--Light current 01:31, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I mean that my contributions are being observed with spiteful intent. When no weakness is found, weakness has to be invented. But I really have no wish to say more on this wretched business. Clio the Muse 01:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, Clio, unfortunately, whatever one says on wikipedia is examined through many powerful microscopes by many people.(as I know to my cost). Some people feel compelled to reply and sometimes these replies may not be to your liking. The only sure way of avoiding this is, Im afraid, not to say anything at all! 8-(--Light current 01:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Silent I will never be, Light current. I'm a big girl, and I can cope with disagreement. It's attempts at character assasination that disgust me. Clio the Muse 01:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I know all too well about that! Mines been assassinated a few times -- but Im still here and kicking! 8-)--Light current 01:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, this whole thing is becoming tiresome. At first I was absolutely amazed at Clio's apparent wealth of knowledge. It was actually quite enchanting. Too good to be true, apparently! "Really? I never knew that! You must know so much more than I!" But after a while my suspicions began to rise, until finally, with the whole silly Eli Whitney Cotton Gin thing, my suspicions were raised to the point where I actually bothered to check up on her apparent "facts". I still haven't received one bit of explanation from her explaining to me why she brought Eli Whitney into the discussion. An obvious red hering. (Oh I'm sorry Loomis, I was wrong on that one! :) No such luck. And there are dozens more.

Look, people, I really regret this whole thing. I love Misplaced Pages because I learn so much from it, and there's nothing I love more than to learn. On the other hand, when I come to the realization that for the past few weeks I've been being fed abolute fiction disguised as fact, I felt, quite understandably I'd say, betrayed. I'm an incredibly curious person and I've come to adore Misplaced Pages as a source of facts for whatever particular thing I'm curious about.

Yes, I admit it. I indeed "personally attacked" Clio, ONCE, when I said that it seemed as if she had some "pathological intention to mislead". I later apologized for it. In a sense, that's a microcosm of the difference between us. When I'm wrong, I admit it. The comment was inappropriate. I'm big enough of a person, and confident enough in my intelligence to be able to apologize when I'm wrong.

Since then though, I've been subject to the wildest of accusations ranging from a questioning of my mental health, to "stalking", and whatever other vitriol she can come up with. I haven't responded to any of those attacks because I find them so silly as to be unworthy of response. I try to think that I'm bigger than that.

Were you "wrong", Clio, about Eli Whitney? Were you "wrong" about the etymology of the prefix "step"? Were you "wrong" by linking to an article that actually negated you point? Are the words "I'm sorry, I'll try to do better research in the future" not in your vocabulary?

Personally, whenever I quote a source I say "according to X-source, the answer is Y", leaving it up to the questioner to evaluate for him or herself the validity of the source. I never have and never would answer a question so arrogantly by saying "The answer is Y. See X".

On the other hand, if Misplaced Pages values decorum over truth; that the term "step-" was derived from some nonexistent Middle English word meaning "not related by blood"; that Eli Whitney's Cotton Gin had some sort of mysterious effect on the economics of slavery that would leave the most brilliant of economists scratching their heads; that Queen Elizabeth can commit a tort with utter impunity, and have no de facto price to pay for it; that the noble romantic Edward VIII simply decided of his own free will to abdicate the throne of England, and not because Stanley Baldwin, in the words of Don Corleone, "made him an offer he couldn't refuse"; that Vichy France was not complicit with Nazi Germany, but rather a bona fide "independent neutral" state during WWII; -- in other words, if Misplaced Pages is indeed NOT an Encyclopedia, but rather a repository for any deceptions, misconceptions, factual innaccuracies and whatever fantasies that its contributors choose to dream up, then honestly, I have no interest in further contributing. If this is indeed the case, then I beg of all of you, please BAN ME.

However, if Misplaced Pages is indeed everything I had hoped it to be, that is the best Encyclopedia to ever exist, due in large part to its dedication to TRUTH and ACCURACY, then I'd love to stick around.

Clio, I'd love to put this all behind us. I have no interest continuing this senseless feud. If you'd just be big enough of a woman to publicly and explicitly admit that you're but a mere human as I, and that you may have been "wrong" in certain of your "facts", and if you'd only publicly and explicitly commit yourself to being more honest and dilligent in the future in your research before making bald pronunciations of "fact", there's nothing I'd like better than to move on and forget about this silly dispute.

On the other hand, if you stubbornly reject this reality, in favour of insisting that I'm some sort of mentally deranged lunatic out to get you, well, then, I'll have no choice but to continue to scrutinize each and every one of your posts to make sure that what you claim to be fact, is indeed fact.

So here we are, I've tossed the olive branch. Please, Clio, for everybody's sake, pick it up so that we can all finally move on. Loomis 08:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Loomis, you are the only one with any "interest continuing this senseless feud." You solicited opinion on the matter, yet have ignored those opinions and failed to respond to questions that have been raised. Why did you accuse Clio of making things up when what she said came from a portion of the Misplaced Pages article, a portion which you removed ? Why did you alter another editor's response (mine) ? Why do you ignore the further sources that have been brought forward? Instead of responding to these questions you post this ridiculous tirade. You demand public and explicit admissions of wrongdoing else you will continue the same behaviour. How is that an "olive branch"? Since pointing out were you have been mistaken has not convinced you to cease, maybe being more direct will. Loomis, you have made and are continuing to make a fool of yourself.EricR 16:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Archival

All recent discussions archived in Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk/Archive 18 - I'm very aware that there were a number of threads which were active, so please feel free to reinstate the ones which are ongoing and important. --HappyCamper 04:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Chastising opinion responses on the Ref Desk

I answered a question which I believed to be asking for opinions with my opinion. User:Sam Clark then complained, on the Ref Desk directly, about giving "unsupported opinions". I feel both that opinions are proper in response to questions which solicit an opinion, and that any chastisement of other editors should be done off the Ref Desk. Here is the question and answers: Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Humanities#Holocaust_guilt. What does everyone else think ? StuRat 18:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It looks to me like Sam was trying to give information about how philosophy would address such an issue, and you were trying to give your personal opinions. Sam seems to be making a good case that even questions that could easily turn into just opinion and chatting could perhaps instead be answered in an encyclopedic way. I applaud that effort. As for whether it belongs on the talk page, I think a small amount of such stuff is acceptable on the RD itself, but if it turns into extended meta-dicussion it should be on the talk page. Friday (talk) 18:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank-you, yes, that's part of what I'm getting at: what looks like mere chat-fodder to one person is a question which deserves a serious response to people who know the area. Sam Clark 18:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Well Stu, according to the new rules (if Im not mistaken) say the Q itself should be disallowed as it asks for opinion 8-)--Light current 18:36, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that such rules have been approved. StuRat 18:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Stu, I didn't 'chastise' you, I suggested that your post was unhelpful, and in doing so, I further developed an answer to the question. Part of what is at stake here is whether the question was merely 'soliciting an opinion': as I've pointed out on the desk, your view that 'all moral questions are opinion' is a matter of controversy, and widely opposed. Making that point seems to me to be a worthwhile addition to the answer; if I hadn't thought that, I would simply have asked you, privately, to remove your contribution. Moral questions in fact raise difficult philosophical problems on which there is a large body of closely-reasoned debate, and that body of work is my professional expertise. Responding to this kind of question with your gut reaction does not strike me as adding any value to the desk. The point I'm making, essentially, is that we should all think twice before responding to a question which is outside our knowledge and expertise: I don't answer questions on the computing desk, for instance, for just that reason. On Light current's point: I don't think any such rule has wide acceptance, and I oppose it, because what counts as 'opinion' is (as this debate demonstrates) itself a matter of controversy. Yours, Sam Clark 18:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Correct. But if they had been, the question would have been disallowed. Yes?--Light current 19:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so: the question doesn't ask for feelings and opinions. It asks for an answer to a difficult question, and encyclopedic answers - further information, context and sources - can be provided. That's what I tried to do in my answer. Sam Clark 19:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Sam makes another good point above- people have expertise in different fields. So, as long as we have folks with philosophy expertise around, we can provide good answers. I agree that those unfamiliar with the field should probably think twice before just offering their personal opinions. Friday (talk) 19:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

What about opinions on other peoples opinons? Are those allowed?--Light current 19:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I think what this comes down to is the quality of an opinion.

If something rings false, it's called an opinion.

If something rings true, then it is not challenged, and it can therefore be safely assumed to be either true or factual -- or at least not patently wrong. Vranak

I would argue that only things which can be test and proven, via the scientific method, are facts, while all else is opinion. Even widely held opinions, like that slavery was just (up until two centuries ago) are never the same as facts. StuRat 20:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Well said.

However, in my experience, scientifically-affirmed facts aren't much use. Example: the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West, is a scientifically-verifiable fact. What good does it do? Everybody already knows this is the case -- or if they didn't, they certainly go about their daily business as if they did. Vranak 20:51, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It depends on the field. In math, science, engineering, and history, facts are quite common and useful. In philosophy and morality, however, there are very few hard facts, mostly people in those fields deal in opinions. StuRat 21:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Fully agreed.

As however, a fair portion of questions posed at the Reference Desk are of the sort to which no factual answer may be given, there is of course a wide range in quality in the given responses: some may be dismissed as mere opinion, while others will be useful, though they too are mere opinion. Thus, 'opinional answers' cannot be dismissed outright, though dubiously-opinionated answers certainly can. :) Vranak 03:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you think my answer was dubiously opinionated, as you put it ? If so, why ? StuRat 13:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Sam, I simply don't understand your argument, is it that matters of morality can be decided in some universal and scientific manner, with no opinion involved ? I don't see how. The only defense I could possibly see here is that they were soliciting the opinions of noted academics, not the general public. They didn't actually say that, though, so this is purely an assumption on your part. And, in any case, we want to avoid saying things like "that answer is unhelpful" on the Ref Desk. It's up to the questioner to decide what info is useful to them, not other responders. This type of conflict should be kept off the Ref Desk. StuRat 19:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Stu, my argument is 1. that 'moral questions are all opinion' is not an obvious truth, but a controversial metaethical position, and that simply assuming it in your answers is a mistake; and 2. that we should be wary of answering questions outside our fields of expertise. Your field of expertise (judging by your user page) is computers; mine is philosophy. You don't know anything much about philosophy, as you've revealed in your answers to a number of questions at the humanities desk. I therefore don't plan to get into any debate about the metaethical issue with you: you don't have the background or the particular skills to engage constructively in such a debate. It wouldn't be worth your while getting into a debate with me about COBOL programming, for the same reason. Finally, I'm not making an assumption about the questioner's intentions. Whatever they are, the question asked can be given an encyclopedic answer, not merely a gut-reaction, as I've demonstrated with the answer I gave. I suggest that this is what we should be trying to do here: this is an encyclopedia, not a chatroom. Yours, Sam Clark 19:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I reject your argument from authority (paraphrased as "I'm an authority, and you're not, so I'm not even going to discuss it with you"), as well as the assumption that each person can only have one area of expertise, and also your assumption that they only wanted to hear from experts in the field of morality. If that was the case, they would have said so. And, finally, you haven't addressed the issue of bringing negativity to the Ref Desk by criticizing the answers of others. If you believe another answer to be incorrect, then say so, and offer proof. However, don't engage in ad hominem attacks, or say "that answer is unhelpful", as that is for the question asker to decide for themself. StuRat 19:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

So you're essentially rejecting the notion that statements about notable work done in a field, made by people with the knowledge of the field, are to be preffered to personal opinions? -- SCZenz 20:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

So you are essentially saying that only professional philosophers are allowed to express views on moral or ethical questions ? Gandalf61 21:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say anything about what's "allowed." I said we should be giving facts, and I said that people who know a field are more likely to do this well. But certainly anyone can give statements about the field of philosophy and provide relevant links supporting what they said. Sam Clark did that. -- SCZenz 21:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

And he is welcome to do so. He is not, however, welcome to criticize other responders who he considers to be "unqualified to speak". StuRat 21:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

StuRat (and anyone else) is correct to chip in with his 2c in that the questioner did not ask for opinion only from a professional moral guidance counsellor or professional philosopher. The {{strict}} tag was not placed either. 8-)--Light current 21:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

(after eit conflict) But random Wikipedian's opinions are not notable or encyclopedaic. Schools of thought within the field of philosophy are. That's why Sam's answer was more consistent with the reference desk being a useful resource. -- SCZenz 21:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's try not to couch this in contentious terms, as an argument between "authorities" and "non-authorities".

I think we agree that the Reference Desk deals much more comfortably with facts than opinions; I think we agree that highly-opinionated discussion threads are problematic and often out-of-place. So I think we should all think twice before offering personal opinions on the Desks. (And I think we have to be just as careful regardless of whether the opinion was explicitly solicited, and whether by an original questioner or by another answerer.)

To my mind, one of the important questions to ask is, Is there anything special about my opinion that makes it worth posting here? If the question is a broad one on which everyone has an opinion, it's probably pointless for you (or anyone else) to post your own opinion; the Reference Desk is not for opinion polls. If, on the other hand, the question is particularly topical, and if you feel that your opinion has an above-average value (perhaps because the question is one which you've spent a lot of time thinking about already, even though you may not be a formal expert), then it might be worth posting.

It's somewhat of a delicate question, and I doubt we'll able to come up with any cut-and-dried rules. (I have some more thoughts which I'll post when I have more time.) —Steve Summit (talk) 21:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I have indeed given a great deal of thought to this topic, as should everyone, in my opinion. To state that only those with degrees in philosophy are able to offer moral opinions (I'm not saying you did this, Steve), is, in my opinion, misguided. StuRat 21:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes. We are all philosophers in our own little ways! But naturally we will all have different judgements in such cases. 8-)--Light current 21:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It is precisely because this particular question is a broad one that affects all of humanity that everyone is qualified to provide an answer if they wish to. A professional philosopher may have an academic opinion, but the man in the street may also have an equally valid opinion. As well as Sam and StuRat, three other editors have now provided their points of view, with suppporting reasoning. None of them sounds like a professional philosopher to me. Are we saying none of their reponses are valid ? If we allow this type of question then we must allow intelligent, polite and reasoned answers not matter what their source. Gandalf61 22:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

THis sort of question will be banned under the new rules! --Light current 22:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) Sam was not providing his point of view; he was organizing the ideas of philosophers, which exist in our articles. If the ref desk is a place to solicit the personal opinions of random users, then how is it not a discussion forum? -- SCZenz 22:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Opinions should not be sought by questioners on moral, ethical, religious or other sorts of serious issues. No answers that are satisfactory to all concerned are likely to be provided and we end up with pages of crap that has to be read thro and then archived. I actually beleive this sort of question is more disruptive to the RDs than joke questions and/or answers. At least jokey responses usually dont take up much more than 1 or 2 screens worth!and dont get editors all hot under the collar and at each others throats. Now which is more disruptive? Tell me honestly 8-)( --Light current 22:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Questioners who ask about moral, ethical, and religious issues can be told encyclopedaic facts about thought in those areas. Nobody's said anything in this section about what questions can be asked (except you, repeatedly); the complaint is about answers that are opinion and original research. -- SCZenz 22:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

If you read my post again, you will see that I said questioners should not ask for opinion on matters to which there can be no unequivocal answers, neither should RD staff offer it. --Light current 23:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that you, or anyone else, could honestly hold this sentiment. Can you think of a single interesting question to which there are no unequivocal answers? And, if a question is uninteresting, it will not be asked in the first place, and certainly not answered with any degree of vigour if it were.

If there are to be no questions asked that allow for variation or interpretation in answers, then the Reference Desk will quickly dry up and lose the bulk of its readership. Vranak 04:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me that Sam certainly was providing his point of view. He selected and described two specific ethical approaches to the problem, from a menu of many possible choices. Presumably he selected the two approaches that coincide most closely with his own opinion. If someone asks "what is the best family car" and you reply "model A has some good points but model B has some good points as well", that is still an opinion. So, yes, the question asked for opinions and Sam, like all responders, provided them. Its just that he provided a choice of two opinions rather than one. Gandalf61 00:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I see no basis for your presumption that "he selected the two approaches that coincide most closely with his own opinion." I also note again that he presented notable ideas from the field, and linked to Misplaced Pages articles with further information (and support). There has to be some willingness here to aknowledge that sourced answers are better than pure opinions. -- SCZenz 01:03, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

(rmv indent) Nevertheless Sam's answer is a POV answer, because he selected two possible approaches to the problem from many equivalent choices - whether this is actually his own opinion is irrelevant. And this is not a critcism of Sam's answer - it would be impossible for any single editor to create a balanced NPOV answer to such a complex question on their own. That is precisely why Wikiepdia is a colllaborative enterprise. In summary, we have:

1. The Holocaust guilt question, like any other moral or ethical question, has a wide range of possible approaches and answers. No answer is any "better" or more "right" than the others, because moral and ethical statements cannot be categorised as true or false (I am not just asserting this - this follows from A.J. Ayer's emotivism and R. M. Hare's prescriptivism, for example).
2. It is impossible for any single editor to give a balanced NPOV answer to such a complex question, giving equal weight to every approach. Sam did not attempt to give an NPOV answer - he selected two particular approaches and described them.
3. A professional philosopher such as Sam will be aware of wider range of opinions than the man in the street, and will know the arguments behind each of these views in more detail. However, the constraints of time and space in the RD format mean that even a professional philosopher can only provide a partial, POV answer to such a broad question.
4. Because no one approach is objectively better than any other, the man in the street's POV is just as valid as a professional philosopher's POV, provided it is presented in a rational and coherent fashion.
5. The only objective difference between Sam's response and those of the other editors who answered the question is that he provide some wikilinks and recommended a book for further reading. In this limited sense, his answer is more "factual" than the other responses - not because it is more correct, but because it provides references. This should certainly be encouraged, but it is a difference of degree - it does not place Sam's response in a different category to anyone else's.

If we allow moral and ethical questions on the RDs then we must also allow answers from all editors, not matter what their qualifications, and we must allow a certain amount of discussion between editors to clarify or refine their responses. Taking the sum of all such responses is the only way we can hope to approach an balanced NPOV answer to such questions. Gandalf61 10:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Well said, although I would add that "discussion between editors to clarify or refine their responses" should not include denigrating the value of another response or ad hominem attacks against other editors. Everyone is "qualified" to respond here, not just those with a degree in philosophy. StuRat 13:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Gandalf, you could also assemble committees to determine the world's premiere expert on every topic and only allow that expert to answer these types of questions--if you can get them to volunteer at Misplaced Pages. Alternatively, you could let an administrator pick someone to answer it. Or you could take the view that Misplaced Pages's an "encyclopaedia that anyone can edit" and allow anyone to answer. Maybe it would be a good idea to limit responses to three lines. -THB 16:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

If someone asks for other editors' opinions, I don't see the problem with giving them. All experts are welcome to contribute or argue against the other editors. People ask opinion questions because they want to get a wide variety of answers; there are no "right" or "wrong" responses. I know some people think opinion questions shouldn't be allowed, but there's already a lot of discussion and debate going on at the reference desk. This is not a courtroom; do we need to follow "instructions" word by word? Also, opinion questions increase the questioner's knowledge, since he/she now knows many ways to argue a point. As such, they are useful to the questioner, and therefore legitimate questions. --Bowlhover 16:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Strict

Template:Strict has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- SCZenz 21:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk/Proposed policy for the reference desk

What is going on here: A lot of work was done (in large part by StuRat) in developing two pages; /rules and /guideline. There was accusation of POV-forking. Then TenOfAllTrades developed a draft based in the previous work and discussions. There was consensus that that draft would be an appropriate continuation. To that end, and to prevent discussion of the same topic, proposed RD policy, taking place in multiple locations, I am bringing it all here. The /rule and /guideline are archived there for reference only. Please do not edit those. The Ten draft can and should be edited.

Please discuss edits HERE, on the regular RD talk page. --Justanother 16:03, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there some reason that our normal page/talk page arrangement won't work in this case? Ned Wilbury 16:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Only because people discuss there and discuss here too. If there is a consensus or policy reason to move it then it can be moved to its adjacent "project page". So please chime in and let me know you'all. One of my goals was to eliminate "all the discussion forking" at least, if not "all the forking discussion" (smile). --Justanother 16:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

If people don't bother learning the purpose of pages and talk pages, the solution is to educate editors, not change our how procedure to match the misunderstanding. The Reference desk gets discussed at its talk page. The policy proposal gets discussed on its talk page. How is this difficult? If you want to edit the guideline, go ahead, but I see no reason to move it. And, moving it the way you did makes no sense at all. Ned Wilbury 16:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I tried to fix the page move, by moving it to Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Proposed policy for the reference desk. Why this name is better than the old one still eludes me. We don't name it "proposed policy" - that's a stage it might go thru, not the name of a page. However the old name is still there, so I think an admin will have to fix this, since we need to move the corresponding talk page also and there's a page in the way. Ned Wilbury 16:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

There is support for what I did. I did not invent this. Please review Misplaced Pages:Subpages re: placing drafts on subs of talk pages. If you messed up what I did then please fix it. --Justanother 16:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, two things: /guideline was a perfectly good name for the page. Naming it "proposed policy" is a bad idea- it may get marked as a proposal, or even a policy some day, but that shouldn't mean we rename the page. Also, you moved it to project talk space when it should have been in project space. Ned Wilbury 16:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Once again: There is support for what I did. I did not invent this. Please review Misplaced Pages:Subpages re: placing drafts on subs of talk pages. The name is irrelevant - this is a draft! --Justanother 16:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm astounded that we're continuing to have this conversation. Why do you NOT want a talk page for the proposed policy? As for Misplaced Pages:Subpages, the suggestion about articles drafts was to keep them out of mainspace. Really, we should probably leave the page moves to people who understand namespaces. Ned Wilbury 16:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

"Really, we should probably leave the page moves to people who understand namespaces." Please don't get personal with me. I take a very dim view of that. --Justanother 17:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. That type of argument from authority has no place on Misplaced Pages, Ned. If you object to somebody's actions, state clearly why, don't just imply that they are incompetent and thus unworthy of a logical discussion. StuRat 17:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Now, about that reference. Here is one of two specific statements in Misplaced Pages:Subpages that support what I did.

From "Allowed Uses" - Temporary subpages in Talk namespace, usually formatted Talk:Example Article/Temp, for example the kind of "/Temp" pages that can be created from Template:Copyvio. But avoid additional incoming and outward links that would make it appear as if this "/Temp" page is part of the encyclopedia: that is, in the case the Copyvio template is used, only this template, applied in article namespace, can link to the "/Temp" article from article or "main" namespace. See below Disallowed uses for further recommendations on how to avoid creating the impression a "/Temp" page is an encyclopedia page.

Can you give me the specific statement that indicates that I erred? My way clearly shows that the draft is NOT yet policy and that is the intent of subbing off talk pages. --Justanother 17:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Like a reference desk

"The Misplaced Pages reference desk works like a library reference desk." - surely that is enough guidance - see Library reference desk it's very enlightening. Note that librarians are not there to "put in their 2 cents".87.102.13.235 16:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but most of us are not trained librarians so that does not really tell us how to act. We need some guidance. --Justanother 16:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

There are a number of editors who agree. However there are a number of people who insist that they do not understand how to behave unless they have exact rules. Ned Wilbury 17:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest those are the users who would be breaking said rules.. such is life 87.102.13.235 17:15, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

There are also a number of us that do know how to act but want some policy spelled to 1) defend the way we act against attacks that we are acting wrongly, and 2) have a standard to point "bad acters" to so they clearly know what they are doing wrong and can, hopefully, correct their behaviour. If someone does not want to participate in the process of developing policy they only need ignore the process and let those that care to get on with it. There will be a comment period before it is adopted when those that think it is unneeded can express their opinion. --Justanother 17:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)