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Revision as of 03:46, 27 June 2020 editHnedrfrieowjiahfguh (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users606 edits →The title "Holodomor" is extremely provocative ← Previous edit		Revision as of 04:29, 27 June 2020 edit undoThe Four Deuces (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers50,517 edits →The title "Holodomor" is extremely provocative Next edit →
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	::::{{blockquote\|The term ''Holodomor'' emphasises the famine's man-made and intentional aspects, such as rejection of outside aid, confiscation of all household foodstuffs, and restriction of population movement. Whether the ] is still the subject of academic debate, as are the causes of the famine and intentionality of the deaths. Some scholars believe that the famine was planned by ] to eliminate a Ukrainian independence movement.}}		::::{{blockquote\|The term ''Holodomor'' emphasises the famine's man-made and intentional aspects, such as rejection of outside aid, confiscation of all household foodstuffs, and restriction of population movement. Whether the ] is still the subject of academic debate, as are the causes of the famine and intentionality of the deaths. Some scholars believe that the famine was planned by ] to eliminate a Ukrainian independence movement.}}
	::::Most of the material discussing whether the Holodomor is a genocide -- mentioned on this page at ] -- has been moved to ]. ] (]) 03:46, 27 June 2020 (UTC)		::::Most of the material discussing whether the Holodomor is a genocide -- mentioned on this page at ] -- has been moved to ]. ] (]) 03:46, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
			:You lose crediblity when you say, "It was a famine that the Soviet leadership tried get a hold of, but the kulaks made worse." OTOH the ] is Ukrainian famine, and the term holodomor has been adopted by anti-Communists because of its similarity to the word Holocaust and to promote the narrative that the Communists killed 10 million Ukrainians while the Nazis only killed 6 million Jews. Notice that none of the sources Timothy cites use the term holodomor in their titles. All these writers are anti-Communists. Anti-Communism does not mean opposition to Communism, but opposition to an extreme degree. That doesn't mean that their books are unreliable but that they present one view of events. ] (]) 04:29, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

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Extra section

I'd like to add a link to Scotland's memorial to the holodomor in Edinburgh (c/f https://edinburgh.mfa.gov.ua/en/news/photos/2238-vidkrittya-ta-osvyachennya-pershogo-v-shotlandiji-pamjatnogo-znaku-zhertvam-golodomoru-19321933-rokiv-v-ukrajini) with photograph.

Second paragraph incoherent

The second paragraph needs a rewrite. It sounds more like a rant than an encyclopaedia, and it's unclear what is the article and what is a quote 14.202.37.121 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:04, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Are you referring to the second paragraph of the lede? If so, it coherently describes the death toll as reported by sources. Darwin Naz (talk) 22:32, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Man-made?

Considering this topic is STILL controversial decades later, and considering WP:NPOV, why is it fine to call it a man-made famine? There are many scholars who dispute this mainstream narrative. --Felipe Forte 20:40, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Dare I say there's some personal bias here, Mr. Stalinist-Marxist? There is zero controversy. It happened and it was caused by the Party. Just because it's politically inconvenient for you that Stalin did horrible things to his own people, doesn't mean it's all Bourgeoisie fantasy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.248.12.54 (talk) 17:34, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

there is do debate as to it being man-made or not, but whether it was the result of bad collectivization practices; will-full genocide; or some combination of the two Blindlynx (talk) 16:45, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

The title "Holodomor" is extremely provocative

It implies it was a genocide, which it wasn't. There was no genocide committed against any people of the USSR. It was a famine that the Soviet leadership tried get a hold of, but the kulaks made worse. Calling it Holodomor implies it's akin to the Holocaust, the killing machine of six million jews. I don't think anyone in their right mind would think the USSR would do anything even close to killing off an entire group of people. AHC300 (talk) 12:56, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Your personal opinion thereof is irrelevant. Misplaced Pages is based on reliable scholarly sources, and those say it was genocide.--Galassi (talk) 13:14, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

No, a genocide, as in, the real intention of killing a considerable part of the population based on ethnicity, is an extremely unusual event in History. The burden of proof is on you. What is your reliable scholarly source that say it was a genocide? --Felipe Forte 23:15, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

The bibliography section is filled with WP:RS that this was an intentional man-made genocide. Some you can start with are:

Applebaum, Anne. Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine
Conquest, Robert. The Harvest Of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivisation and the Terror-Famine
Dolot, Miron. Execution by Hunger: The Hidden Holocaust
Kotkin, Stephen. Stalin (volume 2)
Montefiore, Simon Sebag. Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar
Naimark, Norman M. Stalin's Genocides

This issue has been discussed numerous times and their is a clear and overwhelming consensus. // Timothy :: talk 23:12, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

@AHC300: @Marx.FelipeForte: The name is popularly used and used by scholars. The third paragraph of the lede states:

The term Holodomor emphasises the famine's man-made and intentional aspects, such as rejection of outside aid, confiscation of all household foodstuffs, and restriction of population movement. Whether the Holodomor was genocide is still the subject of academic debate, as are the causes of the famine and intentionality of the deaths. Some scholars believe that the famine was planned by Joseph Stalin to eliminate a Ukrainian independence movement.

Most of the material discussing whether the Holodomor is a genocide -- mentioned on this page at Holodomor#Genocide_question -- has been moved to Holodomor genocide question. FuzzyCatPotato (talk) 03:46, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

You lose crediblity when you say, "It was a famine that the Soviet leadership tried get a hold of, but the kulaks made worse." OTOH the common name is Ukrainian famine, and the term holodomor has been adopted by anti-Communists because of its similarity to the word Holocaust and to promote the narrative that the Communists killed 10 million Ukrainians while the Nazis only killed 6 million Jews. Notice that none of the sources Timothy cites use the term holodomor in their titles. All these writers are anti-Communists. Anti-Communism does not mean opposition to Communism, but opposition to an extreme degree. That doesn't mean that their books are unreliable but that they present one view of events. TFD (talk) 04:29, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

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