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This is the discussion page for the In the news section of the Main Page, referred to as ITN. If you are new to ITN, please read the criteria and procedures that guide ITN and its updates. The most important thing to remember is that ITN does not act as a newspaper or an obituary; it provides links to encyclopedia articles that have been updated to reflect important current events, and that have a reasonable amount of information on the topic.

Quick guide

Joseph Aoun Joseph Aoun (pictured) is elected president of Lebanon after a two-year vacancy. A series of wildfires in Southern California, United States, leaves 5 people dead and forces more than 180,000 others to evacuate. A 7.1-magnitude earthquake hits Tingri County in the Tibet Autonomous Region, China, leaving at least 126 people dead. Indonesia becomes a full member of BRICS. Justin Trudeau announces his intention to resign as prime minister of Canada. Ongoing: Israel–Hamas war Russian invasion of Ukraine timeline Sudanese civil war timeline Recent deaths: Rosita Missoni Brian Matusz Jean-Michel Defaye Ágnes Keleti Ripken Wayne Osmond Nominate an article view - page history - related changes - Edit (admins only) - Suggestions

If you have already read the criteria page, here is the quick guide:

• For an item to appear on ITN, a relevant article must be updated and a blurb added to Portal:Current events or one of its subpages.
• The event has to be important enough to merit updating the article and should be of international import, or at least interest.
• If you are not an admin, have updated an article with an item that you feel is of international significance and put a blurb on Current events, suggest the item at the candidates page.
• If you are an admin, familiarize yourself with both the Criteria and Admin guidelines. In particular, please pay close attention to the procedure for images.

Archives
2004 – Jan 2005 Jan–Apr 2005 May–Oct 2005 Nov–Dec 2005 Dec 2005 – Mar 2006 Mar–Jun 2005 Jun–Jul 2006 Jul–Sep 2006 Oct 2006 Nov 2006

Benedict meeting Bartholomew in Turkey

Pope Benedict XVI meeting Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople in Istanbul (Constantinople). Has anybody dealt with this? Do you realize the importance of a reconciliation visit some 1000 years after the Schism? If this is not notable encyclopedic news, then what is? NikoSilver 11:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Taking into account all the statements and negotiations that took place before the trip, his recent speech in Bavaria (that had as a side effect the muslims' anger), and also the facts that this is the Pope's second trip (the first one being his native Germany) and the first in a muslim country, i think it should be mentioned 'In the news'. Without also forgeting that this trip, for which the Pope was invited last year by the Ecumenical Patriarch, is meant to heal the wounds of the Great Schism, and this is its aim. Even today the Pope called the divisions among the Christians as a scandal for humanity, not to mention that they called each other succesors of brothers (Apostles Peter and Andrew) and their churches (Catholic and Orthodox respectively) as sister churches. Since the Pope is about to visit later today the Hagia Sophia and the Blue Mosque, i suppose it is quite important his visit in Turkey to be in the news. A quick look in BBC, CNN, the Greek, Italian, Turkish and German media (to list just some, cause it is mentioned on every station and newspaper in the world), will persuade everyone about that. Hectorian 13:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It's notable, but is there an updated article that corresponds to the actual event? Nishkid64 18:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It's covered at Pope Benedict XVI#Turkey (November 28 to December 1, 2006). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Afterthought — it would have been appropriate to add this when it was current, but the trip is past and it would be somewhat belated to add it now. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It was (notice past tense referring to 'belated' above) also covered in Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople (the article I had initially posted here when it was current). Unfortunately I didn't know the process then (and still don't). I always thought WP had a separate mechanism for finding notable news (especially of that importance). Obviously I was wrong, and the whole thing depends on us mere users to suggest... NikoSilver 23:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you did the right thing. It's the rest of us — particularly the admins who are supposed to keep tabs on this page — who fell down on the job. I was busy with other matters, and didn't check this often enough. The only other thing you might have done is add the item to Portal:Current events, which is supposed to be a prerequisite for addition to "In the news". —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:-( NikoSilver 00:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

UCLA Taser incident

Seems like an example that fits the purpose of this template purfectly. 149.175.37.228 21:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it of international interest? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

What the hell is that? Grandmasterka 22:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

UCLA Taser incident, apparently. I don't think it's quite important enough for the template, myself, but I thought I'd give others a chance to reply. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a great article, but unfortunately, it has no real international significance. Nishkid64 22:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Iraq Study Group

Would it be appropriate to add the publication of the Iraq Study Group Report to "In the News", or is that too U.S.-centric? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it would count as "international interest", although I'm sure others might disagree. Grandmasterka 22:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's something of major international interest, but I also don't know what others would think. I think it should be up there. How shall we word it? Nishkid64 22:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

How about this:

The Iraq Study Group releases its final report, describing the situation in Iraq as "grave and deteriorating" and making 79 policy recommendations.

—Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I've been bold and put this on the template; if anyone wants to improve the wording, post here and I or another admin will change it. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I noticed it wasn't linked to the Iraq War, and I was going to fix it, but I had to go to dinner. Looks like someone else got to it first. Nishkid64 00:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that Chavez should move out in favour of Image:ISG report cover.jpg. Shagmaestro 08:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a nice thought, but that image is copyrighted, and I don't think we're supposed to put fair use images on the front page. (I'm not entirely sure why that is, come to think of it, but I'm sure I've seen it objected to in the past.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Augusto Pinochet

His health had been deteriorating for the past few months. I don't think his death is that unexpected, given his age. I'm removing it from ITN, unless I see some opposition to this. Nishkid64 17:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It has been discussed on WP:ITN/C, and if I have interpreted the discussion correctly, Pinochet met criterion C, the effect on current events. He's still a Chilean senator, the trial against him was ongoing, etc. I endorse his death being posted on ITN. Aecis 17:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

He has died, but it's current wording if awful. It doesn't even say who he is and you can see an unclosed ]. --TheTallOne 18:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC) - In addition, the article does not cover this subject well - only a paragraph can be seen about the events occuring over the past few weeks and if this is going to be put up, I would change the wording to something more like: Former Chileian president Augusto Pinochet dies aged 91, following a heart attack just seven days before.

(edit conflict) He made a statement a few weeks ago saying that he accepts all the blame for the tyranny after the Chilean coup in 1973. I had added it to ITN myself, but it was subsequently removed because it wasn't discussed much in the article itself. He knew he was going to die soon, and he made that statement, which is why I don't think his death should have been on ITN. However, I can see your reasoning, so I put it back up for now. Nishkid64 18:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I added the Chilean president bit. Nishkid64 18:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

What is the criterion to labelling him as Chilean "president" and not as "dictator"? His government was a dictatorship; he's in the List of dictators; as has been pointed out, he admitted of being "politically responsible" for the atrocities committed during his régime; as far as I know, legitimate Presidents, the ones who deserve to be called so, don't have to explicitly admit "political responsibility" because that's implicit. He has done it, so was a dictator and should be labelled as such. Amorim Parga 21:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was originally going to put that, but I wasn't totally sure so I just didn't. Anyway, from your evidence, I've changed it to "Former Chilean dictatorial president" Nishkid64 21:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that WP:ITN, perhaps more than other parts of wikipedia, has to respect the neutral point of view. There's also no space on ITN to deal with all the nuances, sources, references etc. as to what constitutes a dictatorship, which definitions are used for a dictatorship, why Pinochet meets those criteria, etc. What we can say for sure is that Pinochet held the office of the presidency of Chile. Whether his policies constituted a dictatorship is not for ITN. Aecis 22:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't put it in the first place because of NPOV, but I thought it would be accepted, since all of this was true. Anyway, I removed it now. Nishkid64 22:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

His regime is often associated with dictatorship (a.o. by me), so it's not an uncommon association. But this is already described in the article. I don't think it is needed on ITN as well. Aecis 22:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, at least now I know for the future. :-P Nishkid64 22:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe the current wording – Augusto Pinochet, 91-year-old former Chilean president, dies one week after suffering a heart attack – sounds very good. The interjection of 91-year-old former Chilean president sounds especially awkward. -- tariqabjotu 23:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

What about "Former Chilean president Augusto Pinochet (91) dies one week after suffering a heart attack"? Aecis 23:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I like it. I've added the word "age" and performed the edit. —David Levy 23:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks good now. Nishkid64 23:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Please change president for dictator. Pinochet was not elected democratically and he dissolved Chilean Congress upon rising to power through a military coup d'etat. He is a dictator by definition. At best, he is a de-facto head of state, but not president.--Thor Waldsen 16:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

He was a dictator, and we all agree on that. However, we don't want to bring in POV into ITN, so we're keeping it as president. If people want to know if he was a dictator or not, they can go to the article. Nishkid64 21:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

"President" is NOT neutral. "Head of state" is acceptable. Please change. ☆ CieloEstrellado 06:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

As I said on your talk page, he was the 30th president of Chile. I mean, I can go either way on this, but I think it's fine as it is. Nishkid64 23:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Kofi Annan

I've added an item about Kofi Annan's final speech in office. In diplomatic terms, the speech is actually quite a strong rebuke of US foreign policy (and is noted as such by the BBC), but in the interests of NPOV I tried to reflect Annan's actual diplomatic language. (Kofi Annan has, of course, been updated.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a great addition to ITN. It's both internationally appealing, and it follows ITN candidate guidelines. Nishkid64 21:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the wording could be changed a bit to reflect NPOV. It seems to grant Annan's assumption that the U.S. has now abandoned its "historic commitments." Tfine80 22:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Any suggestions for an improvement? (I had considered something like "...chides the United States for moving away from its historic commitments...", but decided that didn't accurately reflect his diplomatic language — even though that's how it's being universally interpreted.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

As noted above, this text is blatantly POV and suggests that the U.S. has abandoned its commitments to human rights. /Slarre 00:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Would it be better to say "...suggests that the United States has abandoned its commitments to human rights and multilateralism"? Annan's actual words are "When it appears to abandon its own ideals and objectives, its friends abroad are naturally troubled and confused." My question above was a legitimate one: any suggested improvements would be welcome, and I'm sure that I or another admin can incorporate them. This is a wiki, after all. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not just simply state that he criticised the U.S. in his speech? We don't need to go into details here. /Slarre 13:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The bit on Kofi Anan and his speech is loaded in my opinion. There is no article regarding his speech, yet someone took the liberty of noting how critical he was of the United States. He didn't talk about anything else? Again, his stance on the US might actually be noteworthy if there was an article to properly back it up - it's editorializing otherwise. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 09:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, his criticism of the US is the aspect of the speech that major media sources have focused on, so I think it's not a "liberty" to do the same. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The use of the ad populum justification is inherently POV. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 06:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

While I don't think Kofi's speech deserves its own article, I do agree that there may be a bit of "editorializing" on ITN. --64.229.220.121 16:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

As I've said twice now, all suggestions for a more neutral wording are welcome. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

ITN items don't have to stem from novel articles, just updated ones- although this often comes down to a matter of opinion, unfortunately. Annan's biography is updated to reflect his speech and therefore the piece is legitimate. I would certainly say it's noteworthy (to paraphrase the ITN guidelines, "of internation interest..."). It could be shortened, but he has obviously deliberately used diplomatic language and I think we should reflect that intent here as well when reporting- criticism is too strong a word in my opinion. Badgerpatrol 16:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Would it be better to say "encourages the United States to follow its historic commitments" instead of "return to"? He does say that the U.S. appears to have abandoned its own ideals and objectives. However, I think that if we say baldly "Kofi Annan ... suggests that the United States has abandoned its historic commitments to multilateralism and human rights" it might misrepresent his constructive tone. Once again, suggestions for a better, more neutral wording are welcome. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion: why not quote Annan? That is, use his own words in the final line instead of "encourages...". That makes it clear ITN isn't endorsing his views, simply repeating them. (Something not clear in the present version). Mikker 19:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

How about "Outgoing United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan (pictured), in his final speech in office, encourages the United States to provide global leadership in the multilateral tradition of Harry S. Truman"? (Having read the speech; the current version most certainly can't stay... it's clearly POV and OR). Mikker 21:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Alternatively, "Outgoing United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan (pictured), in his final speech in office, encourages the United States to provide global leadership whilst respecting the principles of "collective responsibility, global solidarity, the rule of law, mutual accountability, and multilateralism"". (the last part is a quote from the speech, see this). Mikker 21:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, Mikkerpikker. I can support either of these — but since it seems my judgement was a bit off in this case, I don't know that I should be the one to choose between these two alternatives. Does anyone have a preference? (They both seem accurate to me.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Ummm... although the second version is somewhat better, it may be a bit too wordy. That said, the first version places undue weight on Truman - Annan praises him, but this story isn't noteworthy because of that. The second version more accurately reflects Annan's goal it seems to me. Mikker 22:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I've made that adjustment, and linked most of the concepts Annan spoke about in his quote. I was a bit unsure about linking to collective responsibility (doctrine), because that article doesn't have much about the application of the term in international relations, but I reckon people who know more about that than I do can take the opportunity to improve that article. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

This item is way too long. —Centrx→talk • 23:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It's long because it's tough to be succinct and accurately reflect diplomatic language. Any suggestions for a shorter version that's NPOV and accurate? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

How about "Outgoing United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan gives his final speech in office, widely interpreted as a criticism of the unilateralist policies of the George W. Bush administration."? Is that better? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:WEASEL. I'd go with the Truman version then... and, yeah, after seeing it on the main page, I think Centrx is right. Mikker 00:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Pharos has cut it down, and I suppose it's OK now. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Hate to carry on about it... but the current version doesn't make very much sense to be honest. What does it mean to "respect multilateralism"? It should either be "respect the principle of multilateralism" or "encourages the United States to provide multilateral global leadership." Mikker 00:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

And I hate to be overdefensive of my own language, but isn't "multilateralism" by definition a principle? Discussion about the need to "respect multilateralism" is pretty common anyway, isn't it?--Pharos 00:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Not really, multilateralism is both a description of a state of affairs and a moral princinple. Annan urged the US to follow the moral principle. Mikker 01:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but isn't his intention clear from the context? I don't disagree with you in principle, I'm just trying to reduce unnecessary verbiage.--Pharos 01:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

(I think I'll make this my last post on this). I probably went too far when I said 'it doesn't make sense' but I do think my version is somewhat clearer. It's not that n.b. tho; I'll leave it up to you to decide, oh One With Tools. :) Mikker 01:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe this entry should be taken down altogether. It doesn't seem as though a short, comprehensive wording of what Annan said is possible. In that case, the question is whether this topic is ITN material. Aecis 00:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• I tend to question whether this is really that important of an update (it's doubtful that in 5 years this speech will still have a separate section in the Kofi Annan article), but I don't think the particular characterization of his speech is that difficult of an issue. Currently the discussion between Mikkerpikker and myself is whether "multilateralism" or "the principle of multilateralism" is preferable.--Pharos 01:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe this discussion is over for the most part, but I would just like to express one point: When creating a news headline, it is not acceptable to use an ad populum justification to editorialize it. If 'the news' decides to focus on an aspect of a story, that is their agenda, not Misplaced Pages's. Do not parrot. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 07:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I read the speech myself, and found the sections criticizing US policy (in diplomatic language) to be the most noteworthy aspects of it. Perhaps it was an error to justify that judgment by pointing out that it was shared by major media sources reporting on the speech, perhaps not. But I still maintain that if the UN Secretary-General chooses to use his final speech in office to criticize the United States, that is appropriate material for "in the news", and it is precisely because of that criticism that it is noteworthy. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't disagree with you - many stories are notable in themselves and the media can't help but report them heavily, and I'm sincerely glad you read the speech - I believe you're part of the minority who actually have. I only wanted to stress the importance of resisting the temptation to follow major media focus simply for the sake of. I realize that such an ideal is difficult to adhere to in all the chaos of world events, but it's an ideal nevertheless. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 08:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand and respect your concern, but since the name of the section is "in the news" there's going to be an unavoidable bias towards covering the stories — and the aspects of stories — that are, y'know, in the news. Of course, Misplaced Pages aspires to an ideal of neutrality not shared by most media outlets, but a story is a story. The speech wasn't notable because of Annan's reminiscences about arriving in Minnesota, or his expressed concerns about SARS and avian flu. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Ipswich murders

There's currently a discussion about putting up the Ipswich area murders. Please join the discussion at Misplaced Pages:In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates#12 December. Aecis 00:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Pinochet

It is disturbing for me to see Misplaced Pages calling Pinochet a "president" on its main page. Only the pinochetistas call him that. If you read the international media, all call him a "dictator" or "general" or "head of state" but never "president." Can anybody please, at least, change it to "de facto president" or "de facto head of state"? It reads now like Misplaced Pages is taking sides. Thanks! ☆ CieloEstrellado 02:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

That's pretty much the same as calling Robert Mugabe or Hugo Chavez a president. It's their official title. If you notice on the main page, Saddam Hussein is also called a president. 151.196.27.12 02:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Chávez was democratically elected. Pinochet was not. There's a world of difference. ☆ CieloEstrellado 02:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

We do (and should) call people by their official titles. The title "president" doesn't only apply to democratically elected leaders. (Witness Mugabe). Besides, alternative titles ("dictator" etc.) reflect a bias and therefore violates Misplaced Pages policy. Mikker 02:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm changing it to "head of state", as that doesn't carry any POV (I think) with it, and it describes Pinochet better. Nishkid64 (talk • contribs) 03:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC).

That's fair enough... hadn't thought of that. Mikker 04:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Picture

Should we change the picture to Image:Lipotes vexillifer.jpg? ~ trialsanderrors 22:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It looks like someone already got to that. Nishkid64 22:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Solar array redeploy?

The wording of this headline is not entirely accurate, and the event of redeploying was not newsworthy in and of itself. The event involved attempting to stow the port-side P6 array, which due to kinks, led controllers to try extending and retracting the array in an attempt to cause the sections to fold properly. While this ultimately failed, the array is still just over 50% extended, which really doesn't qualify as "redeployed" (since it wasn't fully retracted to being with). Besides this, perhaps the headline should be changed to reflect EVA #2, in which the spacewalkers performed a (apparently flawless) task of rewiring the station's electrical systems? Perhaps, "Astronauts on mission STS-116 performed the first of two spacewalks to rewire the ISS electrical system for future expansion." -- Huntster 10:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Ipswich murders - procedural issues

There is already a discussion here about notability, global interest and so on and I don't want to duplicate that, but I'm wondering about some procedural issues. As we all know, WP:NOT a democracy (nor should it be one) so I'm not going to count support vs. object; but it seems to me attempts at consensus formation with substantive arguments are deadlocked. People have provided pretty solid arguments both for and against inclusion on ITN (I happen to think the against arguments are more convincing, but maybe that's my pov) and it seems the debate won't be resolved one way or another.

My question is: what happens in cases like this? Is the story kept or discarded? Should we perhaps look at adding something to the guideline? (Note, I am not concerned here about settling the Ipswich issue one way or another, I'm more concerned with how to settle disputes like these in the future). Mikker 19:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This is the right place to debate about things like this, Mikker. Hopefully, you'll convince an admin or two to remove the bad item. Or, you can find better ITN candidates to help displace this bad item from ITN sooner. --PFHLai 18:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Suffolk police launches

Shouldn't that be "Suffolk police launch..." or "The Suffolk Constabulary launches..."? —ptk✰fgs 02:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I changed it, as Suffolk police launch I believe is at least correct in British English. Next time, try WP:ERRORS (although it appears someone else has transcribed it there). -- tariqabjotu 02:35, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Tariq, for fixing my careless typo. --PFHLai 18:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Ipswich investigation

At the moment we have the first set of text for this story, which doesn't work very well in British English:

Suffolk police launch an investigation on five dead bodies discovered near Ipswich in Suffolk, England.

Compared to the original submission which sounds much better:

Police in Ipswich, UK are hunting a possible serial killer after five prostitutes are found dead within the last ten days.

Although I would advocate the following as removing some of the potential assumptions in the second headline:

Suffolk police launch an investigation after 5 prostitutes are found dead within 10 days near Ipswich, United Kingdom

I think this would improve the item, but at least can we get away from "launching an investigation on five dead bodies" and can we have United Kingdom rather than England. We wouldn't just put Houston, Texas after all would we... Ian3055 23:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

How about now: ''Suffolk police have arrested a man under suspicion of murdering 5 prostitutes within 10 days near Ipswich, United Kingdom --TheTallOne 14:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions. I've posted a similar line. I avoided the p-word out of respect for the dead. And I left out 'within 10 days' as I ain't sure when they died, though their bodies were discovered within 10 days. -- PFHLai 23:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

This needs updating, a second man has been arrested in connection with the murders QmunkE 20:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Shane Warne

I know Shane Warne is a notable cricketer. I know he's made a massive impact on the sport. I know many people will fondly remember him. But is his retirement really that notable that it needs to be added to ITN? (And please don't say that it's more notable than five murdered woman in England...) Aecis 01:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

He's the leading wicket-taker in international history. We put Schumacher up there when he retired. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point, and the blurb is better now than it was. It doesn't just mention his retirement, but it also makes it clear to outsiders why he is notable. Aecis 02:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the retirement of an athlete is notable enough if the regular death of a famous person isn't. I just don't understand how retirement of famous athlete > death of famous person. Both are bound to happen eventually, but the second one is death! I am referring back to Template talk:In the news/Archive 10#Please add Friedman, when Friedman's death lost out to Ian Thorpe's retirement, because apparently a famous swimmer deciding he doesn't want to swim anymore is greater news than a famous person dying. Shane Warne issues one press release and he's In the news material. The guy is 37, obviously he's not going to professionally play cricket forever. I know a lot of famous people die daily, and am willing to agree that ITN shouldn't include "normal" deaths. But if this is to be the case, no more athletic retirements either! -newkai t-c 06:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't add the Warney entry, Harro5 did. Friedman is very famous, and I didn't express an opinion on him as I am not an economics expert, but Thorpe won the most world championships ever (11), and Warne took the most wickets ever (699) - so with those stats ready, it was quite straightforward. If some mathematician, who had the most cites or the most papers ever, were to die, I guess that would present a strong case also. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but this guy is retiring, not even dying! For all we know he could pull off a Michael Jordan and be on the field again two years from now. Seriously, it's just retirement. All it means is that he won't be getting a 12th world championship. Oh, and I wasn't not accusing you of adding the entry, I was objecting to the entry being added! -newkai t-c 07:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm very surprised that this actually made it to the main page. Major sporting events (The Ashes, the Olympics, various Tennis Grand Slams, Golf majors etc) might be noteworthy news items, but the retirement of a particular player, however exceptional, is pushing the envelope a little. After all, as newkai stated above, retirement is bound to happen at some stage in the life of a sporting champion. By all means, put it in the article Shane Warne, but this announcement is not unique, unusual, spectacular, unexpected or global enough to warrant a listing on the main page.--Phil500 (Talk / Contribs) 07:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Just commenting on this: news covers individuals all the time, and the template has seen many individuals recognised for awards and achievements that are exceptional. Champions and athletes retire all the time, but a world leader in sports is something different. --Scottie theNerd 08:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the process and guidelines of this template, but I would think this template should contain items gaining significant coverage in many news outlets. If his retirement is really that significant I don't see why not to include it. - Tutmosis 16:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

In countries which play cricket, there is hardly any bigger news. Front page stuff. It even beats the bushfires in Eastern Australia to the front page. Should've stayed on. That's the problem of cricket not being enough of a global sport... Nobleeagle 00:24, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The American baseball leagues aren't global either, yet the winner of the World Series has been publicised here. We could compromise though: When The Ashes officially end, we could bundle the Australians reclaiming the Ashes as well as Warne's retirement, as he did announce retirement after the series. --Scottie theNerd 00:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The World Series isn't a global event, but I'd safely assume that people around the world know what the World Series is and probably have some amount of familiarity with the teams involved. If nothing else, they know it's baseball. I have never heard of this cricketer, and in fact, I have never heard of the Ashes. This does not make them (or him) any less notable, but there is a fine line between how Americans view non-American sports and how non-Americans view American sports. -- Kicking222 02:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the World Series is an event. I wouldn't object to the mention of who won The Ashes being placed in ITN, but we're talking about an individual player choosing to retire. No one chooses to win an event (hopefully). -newkai t-c 17:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Centrx removed it because Warn'e article wasn't revamped, as is required. Of course, we can do that now. IND + PAK + BANG = 1.5 billion people roughly.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I have suggested Warne again today following his 700th test wicket. WP:ITN/C--Hamedog_Talk| 05:53, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Niyazov

Somebody should add a line about the death of Saparmurat Niyazov. Rain74 10:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Abu Bakar Bashir

The blurb about Abu Bakar Bashir has been changed from "The spiritual leader of Jemaah Islamiyah, Abu Bakar Bashir, has his 2002 Bali bombing conviction overturned by the Indonesian Supreme Court" to "Abu Bakar Bashir's conviction related to the 2002 Bali bombing is overturned by the Indonesian Supreme Court." I don't think it reads well in the passive form. Wouldn't it be better to swap the sentence around and make the sentence active: "The Supreme Court of Indonesia overturns the conviction of Abu Bakar Bashir for his alleged role in the 2002 Bali bombing." Aecis 00:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• • Yup. Changing. The Tom 00:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Protecting ITN images

I would like to remind everyone that all images on ITN must be protected and just protecting the version at Wikimedia Commons in not adequate -- the 'local file' in English Misplaced Pages must be protected as well. Otherwise, vandals can upload anything they want with the same filename and spoil our MainPage. Thank you for your attention. -- PFHLai 16:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Somalia entry

The current entry on the fighting in Somalia is overlinked, in my opinion. It now reads,

In Somalia, heavy fighting between forces of the Islamic Courts Union and government troops allegedly reinforced by the Ethiopian military breaks out near Baidoa.

Not all of those links are needed, especially not ], ], and ]. Could someone either delink those three or explain why the template needs nine links in one twenty-four word blurb? Thanks. Picaroon 20:14, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Resolution 1737

Regarding Resolution 1737 against Iran: isn't the news the passing of the resolution, instead of Iran's nuclear program? So shouldn't Resolution 1737 be bolded instead of Iran's nuclear enrichment program? Aecis 23:42, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I had the same concern. Perhaps both should be bolded. Aran|heru|nar 04:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

James Brown death

I removed James Brown from ITN because the article did not have much information about his death and such. Also, I'm not sure if this qualifies as an "unexpected" death. He was 73, and had been suffering health problems for a while now. Nishkid64 18:29, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Not unexpected? He was scheduled to play a concert on New Year's Eve! Not to mention that he's been touring all year, around the world. User:Conor M

You were correct to remove this entry. The article's update is small (because there's little to report), and this death does not meet the pertinent inclusion criteria. James Brown was a very famous person who will be missed by many, but ITN is not an obituary section. —David Levy 18:40, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

...he said, and replaced one death-report with another (Niyazov). When famous people die and it's all over the global news, it merits listing here. And when it's a good article, even more so. Many people will want to read and learn more about James Brown today, and we are the one site that really should be giving them that info. And the Main page is the obvious place to have a link to his bio. Shanes 18:53, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

We're not a news ticker or something. There are some notability guidelines, and at first I had some doubts, but I still think it's not something that noteworthy on an international scale. Nishkid64 19:00, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

1. Niyazov "was in a high ranking office of power at the time of death." Please see our inclusion criteria.

2. As noted above, ITN is not a news ticker (and Misplaced Pages is not a news site). James Brown's death will be reported by all of the websites whose purpose it is to relay mainstream news (including sister project Wikinews, which links to our James Brown article).

3. Anyone who wishes to read about James Brown (today or at any point in the future) can simply come to this site and search for "James Brown." —David Levy 19:19, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The ITN is not a news ticker can be used against any entry. But in as much as trying to make subjective opinions apply to rules is a healthy aproach, I'd say that James Brown was a key figure in music and therefore passes criteria 5 b. His death was sudden. I also note that the American James Brown's death is noted on (among others) the main page of the German, Japanese, French, Polish, Swedish and the Spanish Misplaced Pages. I think that speaks alot for his global fame, and also makes it a bit strange for the English Misplaced Pages to shy away from mentioning it out of concern that his death is not notable on an international scale. Shanes 20:26, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

1. "ITN is not a news ticker" could not be used against all entries. No one is arguing that anything should be excluded because it's news. The point is that something shouldn't be included merely because it's news.

2. A borderline argument for inclusion under criterion 5b could be made, but not until a substantial article update (id est more than two sentences) has occurred.

3. I'm not familiar with those Wikipedias' inclusion criteria. Are you? I agree that James Brown was internationally famous (and that his death is of international interest), but that doesn't negate the other criteria. —David Levy 21:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

We've had this debate many times before (above I actually went back and copied exactly what I wrote over a year ago when we debated whether Rosa Parks death should be mentioned or not). In my opinion we should be better in promoting well written articles about people or subjects when they are much talked and written about in the news media. Indeed, Misplaced Pages is not a news site. What we are is an encyclopedia with background information people can turn to after they've read, seen or heard news about someone or something. Having links to articles about day-to-day evolving stories like the Battle of Baidoa, now topping the ITN section, is much more of the kind that belongs on a news site than in an encyclopedia. If someone wants to get the latest news on an ongoing military battle, an encyclopedia isn't and shouldn't be that place. If someone wants to learn about the life of James Brown (and right now, many people do), Misplaced Pages shouldn't be afraid to tell the readers, "here, here it is! This is the article for you. Learn more about James Brown here!". There will always be borderline cases regarding both notability and global interest. But as I was trying to indicate when stating that every other major Misplaced Pages right now have his bio featured on their main page, James Brown is of global interest and he is notable. Shanes 21:49, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

As it stands, ITN's designated purpose is to highlight articles that have been created or substantially updated to reflect news. You're arguing that the section should be revamped to serve a different purpose (and you might consider authoring a formal proposal). While entirely reasonable, this has no bearing on the criteria as they currently exist. —David Levy 22:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe that an update of an article stating that the subject is not alive anymore, that he just died, is an update of rather major importance. And I do believe all this has considerate bearing on whether reasonable people could agree in that, yes, having his bio linked to from the main page will serve our readers and Misplaced Pages well. If we think so (that something is a good thing to do), then we can point to the rule, his sudden death and section 5b and tell all the poor people who always need backing by rules to make a sensible decision that, yes, we're fine. We have this rule, the case complies with it, so we're fine, and Merry Christmas. Shanes 22:31, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

1. Yes, the fact that James Brown died is important, but the article does not contain detailed information about his death and the repercussions thereof.

2. I believe that it's reasonable to propose changing the rules. I do not believe that ignoring these rules is a reasonable application of WP:IAR. Creating a situation in which people complain because the rules weren't ignored when someone important to them died doesn't help to improve or maintain Misplaced Pages, nor does setting a precedent that leads to further bickering. —David Levy 23:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I was trying to hint at that we can post the very short note about his death and still comply with the rules. I wasn't talking about Ignoring All Rules, though the essence of that policy is in fact to not be afraid of using ones common sense now and then. Especially when interpreting rules. Oh well, I guess that 5 day old note about Niyazov's death is important enough to stay a little longer. He was a rather interesting character, and we have a decent enough article on him, too, that new readers will still enjoy looking up. Shanes 00:45, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I understood your argument, but I disagree with your interpretation of the rules. Therefore, I explained why I also believe that this would be an inappropriate application of WP:IAR. —David Levy 00:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey, look, you two both agree that including a note guiding people to the James Brown page would help our readers (many of whom would be interested in reading that article at this point in time), and I agree with that as well, so why not work together to get the purpose of ITN changed to include more of a 'DYK we have an article about this news item' ethos. Carcharoth 01:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I have mixed feeling on this matter. I recognize the potential usefulness of linking to articles that contain only small news-related updates (but provide background information), but I wouldn't want to see such entries combined with links to articles that actually include in-depth coverage of recent/current events.

Perhaps a new section (something along the lines of Behind the news) could be created and placed below In the news. This, of course, would require the creation of another new section for the left-hand column (or the relocation of Today's featured picture to that position). —David Levy 02:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I would personally suggest, considering that we have the link for "Recent Deaths", to include a quick list of notable recent deaths right below the link. Nothing big- just something taking up one or two lines that would consist of something like (with wikilinks, of course) "Person 1 - Person 2 - Person 3". If someone incredibly important dies unexpectedly, or if a sitting president or someone along those lines dies, then still include it in ITN. But if there was a small section such as this one, there would be considerably less debate about including deaths of notable individuals in the ITN section. -- Kicking222 02:36, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

He is one of the most influential figures in American music, and his unexpected death does not even make the "in the news"? That's a slap in the face. Instead, it is replaced by news of Ethiopia invading Somalia. Which story might have more relevance to English-speaking nations? The "In the news" section is one of the worst parts about Misplaced Pages. Half of the things on there pertain to the middle east or some third world countries; many major stories in nations that actually speak English and will see this version of Misplaced Pages get completely overlooked. It's a shame. NIRVANA2764 03:48, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not a slap in the face. This is an English language encyclopedia, not an encyclopedia for people in English-speaking countries. We're writing it as much for a Cambodian English speaker as we are for a Canadian one. For the record, I'm an English-speaking American, and the news about Somalia is more relevant to me than James Brown's death. Picaroon 03:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Instead of posting a self-described "rant" here, you could have been expanding the James Brown article to include additional facts pertaining to his death (citing reliable sources, of course). If no such information exists, I'm afraid that this particular article cannot qualify for inclusion in ITN at this time. You could, however, assist in bringing the article up to "featured" status (which most likely would lead to its eventual appearance on the main page as Today's featured article). —David Levy 05:12, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems that there is an argument being presented here that unless the news event itself is the subject of significant Misplaced Pages text, the event cannot be mentioned on ITN. I would disagree with this assessment. If you look at the current ITN list, you see, for example, the landing of the space shuttle. The landing itself was not that big of a deal and is mentioned only briefly in the article. But the event is mentioned on ITN because the link to STS-116 (the mission) is timely. The overturning of the conviction of Abu Bakar Bashir, which is also mentioned on ITN, merits only one sentence in the article on the guy. The fact that there is not a big long description of James Brown's death on the James Brown article should not be a reason to exclude the death from ITN. The question is whether Brown was notable enough to be mentioned on ITN. I think the answer is yes, considering the enormity of his contributions to American music. Among living musicians, perhaps only Chuck Berry is of more note. -- Mwalcoff 12:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

1. The subject of the Space Shuttle entry is the mission (which the entire article covers in great detail), not merely the landing.

2. Thank you for bringing the Abu Bakar Bashir issue to my attention. I've removed the entry. —David Levy 13:12, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

But see, just as we used the space shuttle landing to link to the article on the mission, we should use James Brown's death as a reason to link to the article on his life. IMO, the point of ITN is to provide an easy-to-find link to background information on an event in the news. It's not to link to the news itself, which is what Wikinews is for. -- Mwalcoff 19:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Your opinion does not jibe with the current criteria. It's true that the point isn't merely to link to the news itself, but a reasonable amount of pertinent information is supposed to be included. The "background information" idea has been suggested by several users at various points, so a formal proposal might be a good idea. In the meantime, we need to enforce the rules that we have. I'll note once again, however, that Wikinews already links to our James Brown article for background information. —David Levy 23:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I would disagree with you on the criteria. Criterion 4 simply says the article should be "updated to reflect the new information." It doesn't say "the new information" needs to be a significant part of the article if it's not warranted. JB might not meet criterion 5, which, IMO, means we should change that criterion. -- Mwalcoff 23:57, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The prevailing interpretation (as established in many previous discussions) is that the update must be reasonably large. Otherwise, a one-word change would qualify. Under the current format, readers expect to find substantially more information on the pertinent event than they obtain via the ITN entry itself. —David Levy 01:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

So we're down to that we no longer need to change the rules. We just need to agree in that posting of very notable people's sudden death is worthy of a note even if the only new thing in the article is that they died. That we can agree on that and still obey the rules. That's great. We're fine as far as the rules go, and it's up to us interpreting them by using common sense and good judgement. That's how it should be. Now, the question I'm asking myself is: Would the ITN-section as it currently reads be improved if we instead of the bottom 8 day old entry about a trial in Libya, put in the (now) 1 day old entry on James Brown's death? Would us making that edit improve Misplaced Pages? In my opinion it would. So I say let's make that edit. Shanes 02:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I don't agree. As I said, under the current format, readers expect to find a substantial amount of information on the pertinent event. If the section's format were to be changed (thereby eliminating said expectation), that would be a different story.

I also believe that most people visiting Misplaced Pages who care about James Brown will learn of his death via another source and type in his name if they wish to read our article. —David Levy 02:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for being slow. With what do you not agree? That we can post the note about his death and still follow the rules? Is that wrong, or are we fine with the rules? If we are not fine with the rules, which of the 7 criteria are we not complying with if we post it? Or did you agree in this (I thought you did) and you simply don't believe that exchanging the 8 day old note about the trial in Libya with the more current entry on James Brown would be an improvement of the ITN as it currently reads?

Regarding readers expectation, I quite honestly believe readers would expect the English Misplaced Pages to spend one line about James Brown's death it in its ITN-section. At least it wouldn't surprise or shock many of them. I'm more surprised by seing every other major Misplaced Pages having done so. But they have. He's on the main page of all of them. And James Brown was an American. He sang in English. Shanes 03:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

• Just to say I too find it odd that there isn't a "James Brown, the "Godfather of Soul", dies aged 73." entry. My impression is that he was known throughout most of the world, to many people from many backgrounds. The omission may inadvertently suggest something less than a NPOV ("I wonder why James Brown hasn't been mentioned...") which I'm not sure recourse to criteria/rules/guidelines would satisfy... Regards, David Kernow (talk) 22:43, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't imagine what bias would be perceived (racism?), and I don't see how modifying the inclusion criteria (should consensus be established) would fail to address the above concerns. —David Levy 23:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

As I see it, James Brown wasn't included for two reasons, neither of them being that Nishkid doesn't like him. The first is that his death wasn't exactly out of the blue - he was 73, and had health problems. Therefore, it wasn't an unexpected death like, say, Princess Diana's or JFK's was. The second is that the article, as David Levy said above, doesn't have much about his death, (four sentences at last count,) because there isn't much to to say.

In my opinion, the current inclusion criteria is fine. It isn't biased, especially not against America; in fact, two out of six entries are currently American, and two more are indirectly related, for those who complain that it doesn't look the front of New York tabloids. Seeing as this discussion keeps coming up, I've added a note to the text at the top of this page. Picaroon 02:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Just thought I'd register a puzzled reaction from another source and suggest one unfavorable interpretation (not my own!). If I find myself thinking similar thoughts in future, I'll take a closer look at the criteria and see if any suggestion/s spring to mind. I guess my view is that regardless of how unsurprising the death or how little an article might say about it, the death of someone such as James Brown, a person known outside their own field (and as an icon of it), is probably worth a one-line mention – not least to draw people toward his/her article and possibly – hopefully – thereby improve it. Assuming they pass away peacefully, I wonder if the deaths of (say) Paul McCartney or Bob Dylan would be considered newsworthy... (Incidentally, in case you were wondering, I'm no major James Brown fan!)  Thanks for your thoughts, David (talk) 02:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

You, like several others, are suggesting that the ITN section's purpose be changed. That's an entirely reasonable opinion, but this has not yet occurred. —David Levy 02:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Just want to say that I think with Gerald Ford's death now being listed we should keep James Brown out of it. One dead guy is enough. Shanes 05:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Can someone please explain to me which criteria Gerald Ford meets, but James Brown doesn't? Iorek85 06:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Umm, Gerald Ford was the President of the United States? That's the criterion he meets that James Brown doesn't. A former U.S. president dying is a big deal. There's going to be thirty days of national mourning with flags at half mast and everything. James Brown doesn't get that. --Cyde Weys 06:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but he wasn't the President of the United States when he died. (the deceased was in a high ranking office of power at the time of death). He wasn't the greatest or most well known President (the deceased was a key figure in their field of expertise, and died unexpectedly or tragically) and it won't have much impact outside the U.S. Don't get me wrong, I think he should be in there, but I can't for the life of me see why he should and Brown shouldn't.Iorek85 06:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Setting aside notability concerns, please compare the short paragraph about James Brown's death to the information about Gerald Ford's death that has been written in a fraction of the time. A former world leader's death simply has far more public ramifications (and therefore far more to write about) than a musician's death has.

Two quotes? If I add two quotes to the James Brown article (and I'm sure I could find plenty) will it get to ITN? Iorek85 06:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit late now (and there are other issues), but something along those lines wouldn't have hurt (though I don't know that James Brown's death was commented on by any world leaders).

I also see nothing regarding Brown's funeral arrangements. —David Levy 06:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd add this but I don't want to make a point. Actually, would improving the article count? Iorek85 06:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Provided that the relevant policies/guidelines are followed, it's always okay to improve an article. —David Levy 07:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Change to criteria?

Here's a summary of what's happened since yesterday:

• Several language versions of Misplaced Pages have featured the death of James Brown on their equivalent to ITN.
• Several people have expressed puzzlement at the exclusion of this piece of news from the English version of ITN.
• A case has been made to exclude the news based on an interpretation of the ITN criteria.

I admit to not being a veteran of ITN discussions. But to me, the above indicates we should change the criteria to make sure that the death of an extremely notable person, such as Bob Dylan, Muhammad Ali or Steven Spielberg, can be mentioned on ITN, even if the deaths themselves are relatively ordinary (e.g., heart failure).

To me, criterion 4 reads as if it should not be a barrier to this. But we've been told that there are precedents to the contrary, perhaps it should be spelled out in the criterion that the "new information" mentioned need not be exhaustive.

Criterion 5 perhaps should be modified to allow for the inclusion of "normal" deaths of extremely notable non-politicians. -- Mwalcoff 03:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I think your summary is accurate. And I don't see criterion 4 to be a barrier either. Iv'e only followed discussions about ITN very much on and off for the last two years, so I'm no regular either. It's actually strange to argue this particular case about an artist I don't like at all and never listen to. But that's beside the point. When someone really world famous die, we can and should put a link to the bio on him in our In The News section. I don't think readers expect to see lot's of breaking news about him in the bio either. I don't think that because I believe the readers know they are reading an encyclopedia and not a news site. Shanes 03:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

And as we were discussing this Gerald Ford died and we'll have to discuss if he is notable enough or not. Sigh. Maybe this isn't such a good idea after all. Though if it's up to me he'll be up there In The News as well. Lot's of people will want to read about him the next days. Shanes 04:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

We had this discussion when Milton Friedman died last month (whether Ford would be recognized given the criteria, being a former POTUS, and having changed the world...Friedman wasn't included). If Ford isn't mentioned on the ITN, but there's something stupid about Paris Hilton or some celebritute, or some Pokemon, or some stupid swimmer in Australia no one's heard of saying he'll swim no more, I will hang the ITN editors by their balls and demand their removal. —ExplorerCDT 04:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I've commented in the past that I support expanding the criteria to explicitly reference former heads of state. Nonetheless, I doubt that many would dispute Ford's international notability, and I hope that the Gerald Ford article is substantially updated to reflect his death's ramifications. —David Levy 05:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I see that Infrogmation has added the entry. I'm not going to fight this one, but I'll reiterate my hope that the article receives the update that it's due. —David Levy 05:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

And you'd be the first person I hang...with dental floss. —ExplorerCDT 05:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't appreciate your threats of physical violence. I'll kindly ask you to refrain from making such remarks (and I'll seek administrative intervention if you do not). I don't know if you're trying to be funny, but I know that I'm not laughing. —David Levy 05:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

What would be the criteria for "extremely notable" then? The examples you've listed are all American and well known in the West. Sure Muhammad Ali was a great sportsman, but once we start running obituaries in this template, I think we'll find that many people feel that others should be included also. What about someone like Sergei Bubka? He is one of the most legendary athletes of all time, but probably not as famous as Ali in the US. There are thousands of examples like this and I think we should be wary of transforming ITN into an obituary section. If the death is not an exceptional event then I don't think it should be added since the article will not have any major revisions. Misplaced Pages comes out on top for searches in Google for the people you mention, so I don't think anyone will have trouble finding the articles if they are looking for them. I think if we expand the criteria and we maintain the effort of countering systemic bias, this could get out of control. jaco♫plane 05:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I share exactly the above concerns. By relaxing the criteria in question, we risk opening the proverbial floodgates to entries about the deaths of all sorts of arguably "extremely notable" people (undoubtedly leading to never-ending disputes regarding which deaths qualify). As you noted, it's likely that we'd be left with little room for non-obituaries. —David Levy 05:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe we could state that we never list more than one death at the time? Let's say that James Brown had been listed since yesterday, he would then now have been taken off and replaced with Ford. Maybe we can even make these entries stay much shorter. Just for, say, two days tops? Because, frankly, when they're dead not much more happen to them (despite all the current event-tags about how things "might change rapidly" people love to smear on top of deceased people's bios), except the funeral. So these kinds of news get old really fast and we can remove them sooner? Shanes 05:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

That makes a lot of sense, Shanes, and I think it would be a reasonable compromise, except for one thing: what if two prime ministers die in a helicopter crash (as happened in Central Africa once, IIRC.) What if, on the same day, a queen dies of heart failure, and a junta leader is assassinated? It's because of the possibility of such competition for "the spot" which you propose ("my politician was more important than yours!") that leads me to doubt that it will work. Picaroon 05:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Has all that ever happened on one day? Do you think the updates about and the quality of all the articles will be the same? Also, the current obituary requirements have no special way to resolve this either; all of these events would qualify under them, so the point is moot. It would be dealt with in just the same way as would any multiple major events, as it should be. —Centrx→talk • 06:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Huh? The current ITN criteria allow more than one death-related entry to appear at a given time. —David Levy 06:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. —Centrx→talk • 10:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I was going to type a reply very similar to Picaroon9288's, so I'll simply state that I strongly agree with Picaroon9288. —David Levy 06:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The reason for the obituary requirements was originally simply because there were too many deaths crowding out other news. As long as that is handled, the reasons for originally having this requirements is dealt with and there is no reason for it. We can satisfy this simply by requiring that more notable persons, or superior articles, or articles with more improvements to it, replace lesser articles. This should be done for any kind of article; there is no need for subject-specific criteria on In the news. —Centrx→talk • 05:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

It certainly is a tricky issue. One thing we can't have is sometimes using judgement to decide who should be in, and sometimes using the criteria. You can't fairly have both. I don't think we should have a limit on the number of people, but a time limit certainly. The 'one person per day' rule could work, if the only objection is multiple deaths, by combining them into one bullet point - i.e. "The President of Namibia and Prime Minister of Zimbabwe die in a plane crash while touring Namibia" or "The Queen of England dies of heart failure and Stephen Spielberg dies in a car crash". Iorek85 06:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

If two people die by the same event, I would agree it wise to have them in the same line however the death of two world leaders is not a small event by any means IMHO. However if two people die in seperate events, e.g. Queen Elizabeth II (who isn't just the Queen of England) dies of a heart failure and Stephen Spielberg of a crash crash, I would suggest they both should be featured in seperate lines. Definitely QEII fulfills our criteria and I would suggest Spielberg does too (a death from a car crash would be unexpected and he's still a fairly noteable and active director). Obviously if Spielberg dies of a heart attack at the age of 102, this would be different Nil Einne 09:30, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

In terms of the overall issue, as with all ITN consderations it's a tricky one. As per below, I disagree with Gerald Ford fulfilling the criteria. If were going to try to use arbitary judgement on noteability of people, then we'll end up with the same dilemmas we face e.g. with sports figures but compounded. Is Gerald Ford more noteable then any other former world leader? To Americans, yes perhaps. But to many others, perhaps not. The one death and multiple lines suggestions have flaws, per above. One option would be to leave our current criteria for multilines but enable other deaths in a single line. But the question so arises, who should qualify? Everyone with a wikipedia article? Everyone who's death is a significant event in at least one country? Nil Einne 09:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I was very disappointed that James Brown's death was missing from ITN. The death of the "Godfather of Soul" was on ITN for several other languages, but not here. The omission seemed glaring. I don't understand how his death is ignored, yet there was some minor item about some cricket player retiring. I don't understand all this talk about criteria, much of it sounds petty to me. I think the section needs some rethinking. Misplaced Pages is now one of the top sites in the world, and many people, like myself, use it as my home page on my browser. It is my primary source of news. I expect to hear about it first here. I think things stay on the list much too long. The decisions about what should be posted are journalistic decisions that should be based on some consensus about what is "front page" newsworthy. I don't think the condition of the linked articles is relevant. Once it appears on the main page the articles will be updated quickly. --Samuel Wantman 10:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest using Portal:Current events as your "source of news", instead of ITN ? Only well updated articles would "graduate" from there and get on ITN. --PFHLai 15:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikinews is another good news source. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, Nil Einne. —David Levy 15:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Gerald Ford?

Whilst unfortunate and all, would it at all be possible for whomever to mention to me why his recent death fulfills any of the critera listed as required, especially: "A death should only be placed on ITN if it meets one of the following criteria: (a) the deceased was in a high ranking office of power at the time of death, (b) the deceased was a key figure in their field of expertise, and died unexpectedly or tragically, (c) the death has a major international impact that affects current events. The modification or creation of multiple articles to take into account the ramifications of a death is a sign that it meets the third criterion." It doesnt seem to fit at present. Thankyou, 58.7.195.145 07:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Unlike some other past presidents, Clinton and Bush being examples, I've never really heard much about Ford which suggests to me he wasn't doing much so his death is IMHO unlikely to have major international impact. From an international perspective, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, I would have to say who gives a damn? Personally I think Keyes and maybe even James Brown was more deserving of being featured in ITN under our current criteria Nil Einne 09:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Your opinion is based on how much you personally have heard of the person? That's quite a ridiculous assumption. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-12-27 14:54Z

What the hell!!! James brown is cut because his death wasnt unexpected enough at 73, Gerald Ford was 93!! And TBH no-one outside the US could probably care less. Philc _TC 12:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

James brown was cut because of what ? Philc, you may want to scroll up to #James Brown death to see why Nishkid cut James Brown. (the 1st line there) It wasn't totally what you think. --PFHLai 15:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Nishkid cut James Brown for a reason that isn't even in the criteria. Arbitrary and unjustified. —ExplorerCDT 15:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Please see criterion 4. If Nishkid thinks the update was not done adequately, the removal would be justified. Perhaps this criterion needs to be clarified and elaborated. This would be a tough one. --PFHLai 15:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I was critical of the Ford entry's inclusion when the article contained one sentence about his death (though I knew that this would quickly change), but omitting it now is silly. Notable dignitaries from various countries will abruptly cancel plans and travel to the U.S. to attend Ford's funeral, and it's reasonable to describe this as "a major international impact that affects current events." —David Levy 15:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Quit it already

I'd give Ford, Brown and Friedman all the same weight of importance. The question here is now not one of individual's merit to inclusion, the guidelines are at fault. As David Levy has pointed out several times, these arguments will keep occuring until the guidelines are formalised. So let's stop arguing over Mister Ford and address the real problem here. --Monotonehell 13:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I wouldnt weight them the same at all. Even though I now know who gerald ford is, I still dont care that he just died, whereas anyone who doesnt know who James Brwon is I would consider musically deprived. Philc _TC 13:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, your opinion is based solely on your own personal familiarity with Gerald Ford. You can never win an argument with such a response. Whether or not you've heard of him or care that he died cannot have any impact on whether he should be on ITN. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-12-27 14:56Z

Proposal: to alter the criteria for inclusion.

—

Criteria for adding entries The In the news section should have 3-5 items. The criteria for inclusion, as decided through community consensus, are:

1. A story should be listed at Portal:Current events, or one of its subpages.
2. The current event needs to be important enough to warrant updating the corresponding article.
3. It should be a story of an international importance, or at least interest.
4. The article must be updated to reflect the new information and have a recent date linked (but remember: Misplaced Pages is not a news report so relatively small news items should not be put into articles; thus those type of news items should not be displayed on the Main Page).
5. A death should only be placed on ITN if it meets one of the following criteria: (a) the deceased was in a high ranking office of power at the time of death, (b) the deceased was a key figure in their field of expertise, and died unexpectedly or tragically, (c) the death has a major international impact that affects current events. The modification or creation of multiple articles to take into account the ramifications of a death is a sign that it meets the third criterion.
6. A short headline should be written for the current event and the link to the article that was updated based on the current event should be emboldened.
7. One and only one image should be included on Template:In the news at any one time, and it must be protected. It should be no more than 100 pixels wide, be right justified, and have alt text. This can be done by enclosing the image code in <div style="float:right"> </div> and adding |100px| followed by the alt text inside the image code, for example: <div style="float:right">]</div>. The use of the "|right" extended image markup should be avoided, since under the current MediaWiki parser it results in unsightly and unsymmetrical white borders around images on the coloured Main Page sections. When adding an image of a person, be sure to add "(pictured right)" to the news entry for clarity.

   Avoid using fair use images. Instead, find a related free image (PD, GFDL, CC etc.) as an alternative.

—

Above are the current critera for inclusion. First we need to decide where they are "at fault", that is; very often a death is included or excluded and an argument ensues. This shows that there is not concensus with either 1)How the critera are interpreted or 2)the criteria are causing some events to be omitted where consensus would include them. Either way this shows that there is something amiss with the guidelines.

I propose that we first hold a debate over the relative merits, reasons and effects of including certain kinds of deaths into ITN. Note: this is NOT a vote, no "me toos", please state your case. After that we can look at adjusting the guidlines so they are less ambiguious.

So let's start by proposing the kinds of items that we believe should be included and why... --Monotonehell 13:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposals

ExplorerCDT

The most contentious and most needed to be changed is the death criterion. None of the others raise such a debate over the merits of whether someone should be included.

1. "Died unexpectedly or tragically" should be removed from the death criterion's subset (b), because too many deaths fit those adverbs. All deaths are tragic. Most deaths are unexpected (heart attacks, anything except cancer pretty much).
2. There should be a subset (d) for those who are retired or out of the limelight but had great impact in their day.

We've excluded a lot of really important people who changed their discipline or expertise. Milton Friedman the greatest economist of the last half of the 20th Century, still a force in Economics, was ignored. James Brown, whose impact was over many genres of music, including INVENTING Funk. Now, Gerald Ford is delisted from ITN (he was on it last night) even though his Nixon pardon was essential to putting to bed the intense partisan division over Watergate, whose oversight of the withdrawl from Vietnam did the same, who was the last man alive who sat on the Warren Commission, 26 years in Congress, etc. But just because these three were out of the public limelight for a while, or weren't as active, they don't merit ITN inclusion? That's b.s. People like David Levy, (who I can't stand because of his being a strict constructionist and stickler for these blatantly wrong rules) always cite that a death shouldn't be included unless there's something more than a line written about it, which is not in the criteria. Well, often even great figures only get a line or two about their death, usually a.) He/She died b.) He/She died of X c.) buried/ashes spread/entombed/ at this location. Unless the widow jumps in the funeral pyre, there's just not much more that needs to be said.

What's sad about the death requirement is that we mention the President of Kazakhstan, who did nothing on the international stage, never won a Nobel, and was only the subject of jokes outside his country gets a mention while Ford, Friedman, Brown and countless others more important are not mentioned...yet the news of their death dominates the airwaves around the globe (and yet I've seen nothing more than a ticker sentence about the Prez of Kazakhstan on FoxNews or CNN or even al jazeera.).—70.126.123.153 14:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC) —ExplorerCDT 14:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

• P.S. Thought I was logged in. Sorry about that —ExplorerCDT 14:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

"Died unexpectedly or tragically" should be removed from the death criterion's subset (b), because too many deaths fit those adverbs. All deaths are tragic. Most deaths are unexpected (heart attacks, anything except cancer pretty much).

I disagree. While any death can be referred to with those terms, this criterion is widely understood and usually applied correctly. Obviously, the death of a 25-year-old in an accident is more tragic than the death of a 100-year-old of natural causes. Obviously, while a heart attack isn't expected to occur on a particular day, it's hardly unexpected for certain individuals to experience them at some point.

Steve Irwin's demise is a good example of a tragic, unexpected death.

There should be a subset (d) for those who are retired or out of the limelight but had great impact in their day.

I see no harm in this, provided that the death itself has sufficient impact to warrant a substantial article update. (A mere mention that the person died on x day of y cause doesn't cut it.) In particular, I've long advocated inserting an explicit reference to "former heads of state."

People like David Levy, (who I can't stand because of his being a strict constructionist and stickler for these blatantly wrong rules)...

While this is a step in the right direction (compared to your threat to hang me "by balls" "with dental floss"), it remains a personal attack. Please stop. —David Levy 15:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Protect ITN images, please!

Come on, fellow admins. I don't care about this "edit war" over obituaries of James Brown & Gerald Ford, etc. Please be reminded that whatever image we put on ITN, it must be properly protected. Otherwise, we are making MainPage vulnerable to vandalism. Be careful when you revert and re-use an old image that may or may not be still protected. Thank you. -- PFHLai 14:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Who put an unprotected image on the ITN template? Release the Furies on them! Seriously. Name and shame may be the only way to stop drive-by admins unfamiliar with the need to keep the main page secure, doing this sort of thing. Is there not a way to contact all admins and tell them this sot of thing? Carcharoth 15:39, 27 December 2006 (UTC)