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240,000 deaths?

What is this? Too high number of casualties. The number is incredibly exaggerated and the source is not credible.DragonTiger23 (talk) 15:30, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Note about Sevgül Uludağ

Just to note that Sevgül Uludağ can be considered as a reliable source in my opinion for the simple reason that her work tries to document the suffering of both communities and is by no means a one-sided resource. In fact, Uludağ has already been cited for the massacre of Greek Cypriots in Sysklipos, and I do try to benefit from her work as much as possible for such incidents as she is one of the few Cypriot resources that can be considered unbiased on the subject. Her language and tone by no means suggest an instance of nationalism. For the massacre of Greek Cypriot prisoners of war, personally having heard of the suffering of individual POWs during the conflict, I tried to find non-Greek resources, not that being Greek automatically implies lack of neutrality, but there is no evidence that this newspaper is free from the systemic bias that prevails in the Greek/Turkish media and their Cypriot counterparts regarding such issues. However, with my limited knowledge of Greek, I do not want to take further action and kindly request a Greek reader to translate the relevant part of the text to allow judgement of the text's contents/bias. Thank you. --GGT (talk) 20:39, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I've translated the first couple of paragraphs (more-or-less word-for-word):

Though the passage of time might heal our wounds, nothing can excuse the fact that, today, Asha is burying its dead with a delay of 40 years. The dead were victims of an atrocious massacre, comparable only to the massacres in Serbia and Croatia, whose perpetrators were tried in the international court in the Hague. Though the whole of Asha is now mourning in exile, international law does not seem to apply to the case of Cyprus.

The relatives of missing persons from Asha, nearly 40 years after the massacre of 52 of their fellow villagers, as well as 18 others from nearby villages, will begin to bury their dead, who were identified using DNA testing.

Alakzi (talk) 22:30, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Sources in this page

This page has multiple source issues. Most notably:

• comes from a blog.
• and are online sources in Greek.

Considering the other sources in this list, i.e., UNESCO or UN resolution reports, Guardian Newspaper article, a published book, these sources are extremely unreliable. Under WP:AGF, I do not claim that the massacres using these references are added here for malicious reasons, however I strongly urge all participants to this page to find better sources per WP:RS. Adding acceptable sources like UN resolutions will definitely make Misplaced Pages a better place.

Especially the source seems stretching WP:AGF. If a mass grave is found by the UN, surely a report about it must be prepared. Following the original sources of the existing sources might solve this problem.

In case no acceptable source is provided, I will remove these massacres from the list. Caglarkoca (talk) 18:40, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I would agree that sources 14 and 15 are not reliable, they seem to be from one-sided, Greek news sources. 15 seems to base its claim on Turkish Cypriot newspaper Afrika, which is basically notorious for the unsubstantiated claims it presents, based on hearsay (not to imply anything about the correctness of its theses, just to point out that it is remote from reliability). I would agree with your comment regarding source 14, and I would say that one-sided reports that often occur on national newspapers should be avoided in such articles, as it would quickly turn it into a long list of purported massacres from Greek and Turkish newspapers alike.

However, I would say that 6 is a reliable resource. It is accessed in a blog, but it is not a blog article; Sevgül Uludağ is an investigative journalist whose detailed research on this topic has led to actual discoveries of bodies and has received the IWMF award for Courage in Journalism: . I would like to make the difference between her and other unsubstantiated, hearsay-based resources in Turkish and Greek media, as she is one of the few Cypriot people I have read on this topic who is neutral and her claims are based on lists of missing persons and eyewitness accounts (although primary, they are an important source of information in this conflict and such cases). I just happened to access her articles, which she originally publishes in national newspapers on a blog, but that simple fact does not affect the source's reliability; these same accounts have been published as books. --GGT (talk) 19:26, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for insight. I rescind my objection to per the information you supplied above. However, WP:RS still dictates that we need to access to more reliable sources than a blog. Maybe people with access to the books can replace them with book references. Of course, this will be a long term task and in the meantime will stay as it is.

However, I continue my objections to and and I plan to remove them if no acceptable source is provided. Cheers :) Caglarkoca (talk) 22:22, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Due to the change in the source numbers, I rephrase my objection. http://www.philenews.com/el-gr/top-stories/885/196386/assia-ena-chorio-se-golgotha and http://www.enet.gr/?i=news.el.article&id=77778 are in obvious violation to WP:RS and WP:POV. I will wait for some time before removing those massacres from the list, in case these sources are replaced with acceptable sources. Where are the other watchers of this page? Caglarkoca (talk) 15:01, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I have already searched for the potential replacements of those resources by other ones and have not found any, I support the removal of those purported massacres. 23x2, who added those massacres on the page, is not currently active (he/she was last active in January, when he/she reverted three edits of mine, one being my removal of those sources with a similar rationale and an ambiguously personal edit summary). --GGT (talk) 18:09, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I imagine it can't be too difficult to reach to scholars; they might be able to provide reliable sources. The enet article is rubbish, but I'd be surprised if there's no truth to the Asha claim. In the meantime, the two purported massacres should be removed from the list. Alakzi (talk) 18:23, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd also personally expect the Asha massacre to be true. There are some Turkish-language resources about it: . However, there is no reliable source that defines it as a massacre and gives the death toll. It is also mentioned briefly in a BBC article, as it appears, but merely as a G/C claim and in an unclear way along with other incidents: "Greek Cypriot massacre allegation: Nicosia radio on 12th September quoted an "official announcement" according to which the Turks had murdered 49 persons, including women and children, in the Palekythron, Pigi, Asha and Famagusta". --GGT (talk) 18:58, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I hardly think Asha massacre existed. If they were found by the UN, we surely could have found a resolution or report about them. Now, it has been two weeks, and no one suggested better sources for these claims. I will remove them under WP:POV and WP:RS. Caglarkoca (talk) 01:13, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Assia massacre valid source. Translate.

http://www.philenews.com/el-gr/top-stories/885/196386/assia-ena-chorio-se-golgotha Ron1978 (talk) 21:04, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

This is interesting, Phileleftheros is a good newspaper, and the claim appears to be grounded on the Missing Persons Committee. However, a third person with a knowledge of Greek needs to determine if the article calls it a massacre (apparently the word "σφαγή" is not there, so I am not sure if "massacre" is an established use for this incident). When searching about the missing people in Assia, there seem to be a number of reliable sources that indicate a high number of missing persons and a mass grave in the area (this resolution by the European Parliament for example), but all of them fall short of calling it a massacre, which is something we need for inclusion in this list. However, without doubt, there is room for this mass killing, regardless of its nature and classification, in the village article and the article of Turkish invasion of Cyprus (the atrocities section). --GGT (talk) 15:14, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

This is the article we talked about earlier. The term they've used is "mass murder" (μαζική δολοφονία). Alakzi (talk) 15:28, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Ah, yes, sorry, that was forgetful of me. There is no evidence calling it a massacre then. --GGT (talk) 17:00, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Mass murder and massacre is a term to describe the same thing, in this case and in relation with many of the incidents called massacres in this article. How do you define the difference of the one from the other in this case, and in relation with the many of the other incidents that are called massacres in this article? Ron1978 (talk) 22:50, 21 April 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Courtier1978 (talk • contribs)

It pains me to say this, but if this is a passed EU resolution, Greek claim has a solid back-up. (Is it a passed resolution? They had a terrible job with the website) :) The only better support in my opinion would be a passed UN resolution. Also per Courtier, it is not for us to identify mass murder and massacre, so in my humble opinion, we have to include Asha claims now. I think it would be in order to add an explanation to Notes stating that 83 people are still missing and it might point to a massacre. This way we present the information with no bias whatsoever. Thanks! Caglarkoca (talk) 00:35, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

• I have made some further research into the issue of Asha since yesterday, and we seem to have a complicated case indeed. There was apparently not one massacre, but two massacres, one being the massacre of "prisoners of war" (who are actually civilians) from Asha in Nicosia and the other one being a significant number of other people in Asha. Now, I was reluctant yesterday to insert the word "massacre" into the article because the sources do not explicitly state that there is a massacre, the European Parliament just talks about 83 missing, deported people whose fate is unknown, which by no means implies at least a single massacre - they could have been victims of separate incidents, as it appears to be the case, according to this source, which alleviates my concerns by using the word "massacre". This source does not give an exact number of missing from Asha, but it concurs with the number being in the 80-90 interval.
• Now, here is where the problem arises: according to the database of missing people, there indeed seems to be 84 missing people from Asha, all in August 1974, and the source confirms that these people were mainly murdered on two separate occasions, one being in Asha, the others having been taken to Nicosia. But this number seems to represent simply the number of missing from Asha, not the number of deaths in the Asha massacre or its sum with the one in Nicosia. Some people on the list were apparently last seen in places other than these two locations: Kontea, Mora etc. And oddly enough, the source only gives 39 people who were last seen in Asha: , and some of these people are not from Asha. It appears that we only have reliable information to confirm that, yes, 83 people were "deported" by the Turkish army in Asha and went missing, and some of these people were killed in two separate massacres (17-18 is the number Uludağ gives for the one in Nicosia). We also have a figure by Cyprus Mail: "Over 50 of them are believed to have died in a mass execution along with Cypriots from other areas in August 1974 and their bodies thrown into two wells." It appears that it is difficult determine or infer without having done significant original research the exact number of deaths in the Asha massacre. As an intermediate, I propose inserting these two massacres into the article with death tolls of 17-18 and 50, put the date as August 1974, and add a note stating the fact that there is no exact number available. --GGT (talk) 17:03, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we need to insert them and we need to reveal as much information as possible without making it too complicated for the readers to grasp. Your method sounds plausible. Thanks! Caglarkoca (talk) 22:10, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned references in List of massacres in Cyprus

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of massacres in Cyprus's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "hoff":

• From Cyprus: Hoffmeister, Frank (2006). Legal aspects of the Cyprus problem: Annan Plan and EU accession. EMartinus Nijhoff Publishers. pp. 17–20. ISBN 978-90-04-15223-6.
• From Turkish Cypriot enclaves: Hoffmeister, Frank (2006). Legal aspects of the Cyprus problem: Annan Plan and EU accession. EMartinus Nijhoff Publishers. pp. 17–20. ISBN 978-90-04-15223-6.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 07:35, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Insistence on adding POV content

@Mr.User200:, can you please verify the claim about a massacre of 2,000 Greek Cypriots that you have reinstated, with full verification and quotes from the sources? And can you please remove the content and sources that are NOT explicitly given in the source as part of a "massacre" as that is undue inference and WP:OR. As the reinstating user, you have full responsibility for this content and you will be held accountable. In the meantime, this page should be back at the stable version per WP:BRD, which means before the mass insertion of massively POV content, content that I previously authored for the article on the Turkish invasion of Cyprus and has been copied here as a WP:POVFORK. --GGT (talk) 17:42, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Also I realised that this also applies to the content on Bloody Christmas, 1963. That also needs to be removed. None of those sources refer to the event as a massacre. Cyprus has a long strife of civil unrest and war and we need to separate massacres from general war deaths or atrocities. I missed out on that as it was not a recent addition but a much, much earlier one, and that is my mistake. --GGT (talk) 17:52, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Agree on that, remove all or rename the article to "List of massacres and killing in Cyprus".Mr.User200 (talk) 18:03, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Just found that 1,500 Greek Cypriots were missing and dissapeared on 1974. Not nessesary a single massacre but fits on a "killing/death criteria".Mr.User200 (talk) 18:05, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

If you are willing to remove all three, shall we do that? The sources need to be calling the events "massacres" for them to be included there. That has been the historical practice and I and other users have regularly removed additions that don't meet that criterion. Missing persons (a massive topic that deserves its own article) does not fit that by any measure. --GGT (talk) 18:10, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

May I also add: there are massacres that took place within the context of each of these conflicts, and that is the scope of this article. So Maratha, Tochni, Asha and the others in 1974, Gönyeli in 1958, and we could add Kumsal and Agios Vasilios in 1963. The general civilian casualties in conflicts are out of the scope. --GGT (talk) 18:15, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I think that the fact that a normal WP reader find out this article (Not mediatic content like politics or Syrian Civil War.etc) a name change could help to ilustrate about not only the massacres but also the killings and other forced disappearances, if happened on Cyprus.Mr.User200 (talk) 13:07, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

This will be very difficult since ALL articles are named List of Massacres . Maybe a note should be placed at the Source code.Mr.User200 (talk) 13:11, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Go ahead remove allMr.User200 (talk) 13:11, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, I have removed all three as agreed. --GGT (talk) 16:48, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

I have added a further reference. I have studied this in detail many times. GGT is attempting to suggest that the 1974 deaths were 'military conflict'. This is false and multi-referenced. The massacre corresponds to multiple correlated mass-murders of NON-combatants. Bloody Christmas was removed, because I agree this was not a massacre, but inter-communal conflict. However, please note, the 1974 deaths listed relate to civilian deaths only, military deaths (not included) would bring the number up.WikiCorrection0283 (talk) 12:21, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

To clarify, GGT previously suggested (in edit comments) that missing individuals included military casualties, this is false, while many of the missing include captured soldiers - they were not killed in war, they were killed and buried as Prisoners of War. POWs are non-combatants. In addition to the POW, many were civilians, women and children. GGT also mentioned that the number of missing persons was reduced - this was because the DNA analysis confirmed their remains. (i.e. they were murdered). The 4500-6000 statistic mentioned by a previous editor includef military AND civilian deaths. It also does NOT include mass burial deaths, in accordance with the ICMP. Please actually read the extensive study conducted by the respected academic Hitchens, which itself is multi-referenced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiCorrection0283 (talk • contribs) 12:25, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@WikiCorrection0283:, your edit is copy paste from the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, it's even not clear where you got that 2000 number, and how do we know those didn't include other massacres? Beshogur (talk) 13:02, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

The *NOTES* section includes a copy paste from another article - is there anything wrong with that if its related to the same events? the 2000 number includes an approximate figure (indicated by ~). This is well referenced, Mr.User above has already confirmed that he identifies a 1500 number. I would add that this is after the remaining 500 or so were already identify in mass graves (see ICMP) reference. If you wish to edit to 1500-2000, your call. The fact remains, around 2000 non-combatants including women and children were murdered. The figure does not include other massacres because by definition they do not comprise missing people, and their references predate the 500 or so identifications. Further, as I already said, I have referenced an extremely detailed academic study by Hitchens, this was a result of years of first-hand journalistic work and historical research. Have you read the study? WikiCorrection0283 (talk) 13:06, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Do the sources use that number? I don't have time to check it now. If not, and you came that numbers by youself, please check WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. Beshogur (talk) 13:11, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, Mr.User has already agreed that those numbers are there, as I said if you wish to edit to 1500-2000 instead then that would be better than no information at all. The important distinction is that these deaths are distinct to military/conflict deaths - these were mass-murder by design - this is well explained, in great depth, in the Hitchens study.WikiCorrection0283 (talk) 13:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC) Also, I'd add that 100% precise numbers are impossible, approximate figures around 2000 is what the evidence points to on balance of probability, surely including approximations that are well supported is better than no information? I know I can't reference this, but I have spoken to eye-witnesses who witnessed elderly family members tied to trees and beaten to death - such incidents cannot be referenced formally but the overall effect is reflected in the DNA evidence, and explained in a historical context by the Hitchens study.WikiCorrection0283 (talk) 13:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

With regards to June 1958, this is also explained in the study, this was not a two-way intercommunal conflict like Bloody Christmas - this originated with protests, looting and attacks from the Turkish Cypriot community, who (in their defence) were manipulated into this behaviour following the planting of a fake bomb. There were zero Turkish-Cypriot deaths in this period - this was an attack on a community resulting in multiple intentional murder - i.e. the events included a (small) massacre (implicit).WikiCorrection0283 (talk) 13:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

However, I insist that the really important point is the 1974 numbers, as someone who has studied this from a British perspective, I think it would be a failure of this Misplaced Pages page to not include such important info.WikiCorrection0283 (talk) 13:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Also, strangely GGT suggests that the sources need to explicitly use the word 'massacre', while some of them do, why should this be a requirement? If the sources literally describe the murder of large numbers of NON-COMBATANTS, this is by definition massacre - any sensible interpretation should include very clear implicit references to massacre - i.e. ***the deliberate killing of multiple people***.WikiCorrection0283 (talk) 13:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Mr.User200: do you support the inclusion of the 1974 'massacres in northern Cyprus', given all of the discussion above? I note that you already have identified the 1500+ deaths, which I explain in detail above and in view of the new (large study) citation. I note that other editors, e.g. @Dr.K.: are also in agreement with me. (see history)

The sources should clearly define the events being added here as massacres because *gasp* this article is a list of massacres in Cyprus. Civilian deaths do not equal a massacre. No one is claiming that civilian deaths in 1974 did not take place, I was myself the one to develop the relevant sections in the article on Turkish invasion of Cyprus. I was also the one to add here the massacres that took place during the conflict - the Asha massacre against Greek Cypriots included, the discussion is right above. There is no problem with massacres against anyone being added here, the problem is with SPAs trying to manipulate dozens of sources to push their POV agenda with original research. It's really laughable at this point - some of the "sources" are the one I added myself and some of them like one don't even talk about Cyprus. The fact of the matter is that WikiCorrection0283 is a single-purpose account whose activity to date has solely consisted of attempting to add massively inflated accounts of "massacres" to this article, despite a consensus here by longstanding editors. This pattern of disruptive editing needs to stop now, consider this your final warning. --GGT (talk) 16:58, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

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