Misplaced Pages

Talk:Paris-Panthéon-Assas University: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 21:40, 25 November 2020 editNarky Blert (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers417,472 edits →Translation help needed: Comment← Previous edit Revision as of 09:29, 26 November 2020 edit undoXIIIfromTOKYO (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users981 edits →Translation help neededNext edit →
Line 321: Line 321:
::::Those are opinion pieces about elements of the student body from time to time. They are not about the university as such. ::::Those are opinion pieces about elements of the student body from time to time. They are not about the university as such.
::::I could comment about ''les événements'' and their inexact parallels in UK and US, but that would be ]. ] (]) 21:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC) ::::I could comment about ''les événements'' and their inexact parallels in UK and US, but that would be ]. ] (]) 21:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
:::::The student body is one aspect of the university, its research an other, its History an other one, its campus... ] clearly says that an article must represent "all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". That includes controversies.
:::::You have failed to provide any translation so far. Still, you have managed to make a few mistakes, including claiming that an article published in 1995 was dealing with 2010's events.
:::::Once again, there is a ] on FR.wiki. Not only a contributor form FR.wiki will be able to check these articles, but will also be able to under the political references in them. ] (]) 09:29, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 09:29, 26 November 2020

WikiProject iconFrance B‑class Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FranceWikipedia:WikiProject FranceTemplate:WikiProject FranceFrance
BThis article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconHigher education B‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Higher education, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of higher education, universities, and colleges on Misplaced Pages. Please visit the project page to join the discussion, and see the project's article guideline for useful advice.Higher educationWikipedia:WikiProject Higher educationTemplate:WikiProject Higher educationHigher education
BThis article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Archiving icon
Archives

/Archive 1, /Archive 2,


This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Sources to be added in the notable people section

There is a need to add sources in the notable people section. --Launebee (talk) 14:28, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, and my understanding is that you have offered to provide these and others, and I suggested at ANI that you do so in the above section #Sources to be added.
But here is fine. This section would logically be a subsection of that above section in fact, perhaps we should make it one? That's just a matter of adding another = both before and after the heading. Andrewa (talk) 01:07, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Panthéon-Assas University. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:12, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Hyphen at "Panthéon-Assas"

A hyphen should be added in the title of the article. --Ransouk (talk) 20:36, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Controversies ?

@Launebee: added nearly 15 references to the Sciences Po article about "scandals" related to that college (more than half of the references), so as to describe it as "strongly criticised in France and abroad and faced numerous scandals." in the lead. Neutrality explains that articles should be written "without editorial bias". So let's see what can be found about this university, and so, what should be written in the lead if it had to be written like Science Po's. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 09:20, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you to start this thread with a personal attack on me. If you have a change to propose about SP, please tell us there. You statement is irrelevant here. --Launebee (talk) 02:07, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Can you stop saying that I'm a criminal who is breaking the rules ? XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 11:09, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
I was merely explaining to you that your point was not relevant here. --Launebee (talk) 00:01, 14 December 2016 (UTC)


A long and enduring tradition of racism and antisemitism

The university has a long tradition of racism and antisemitism. Since its creation, ratonnades have been a common sight ·  ·  ·  · . "Elitism" has a very specific meaning there.

I have noticed that @Launebee: has written the lead section of Sciences Po so as to mention any controversies. So I assume that he or she will agree to mention in the lead the racist and antisemitic reputation of this university.

References

  1. Philippe Rochette, « L'université en Ile-de-France (4) Paris-II Assas, la longue marche vers le centre droit », dans Libération, le 24 mai 1995, consulté sur www.liberation.fr le 23 juillet 2016
  2. "Les « rats noirs » du GUD". www.leparisien.fr/. 19 January 2016.
  3. Olivier Faye (25 December 2009). "Forum étudiant, GUD: la petite agitation nationaliste dans les facs". droites-extremes.blog.lemonde.fr.
  4. Olivier Faye (8 June 2015). "Avec « Assas Patriote », l'extrême droite tente de reprendre pied à Paris-II Panthéon-Assas". droites-extremes.blog.lemonde.fr.
  5. Véronique Soulé (12 November 2007). "Une excroissance du GUD emménage à Assas". www.liberation.fr.

XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 22:06, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

EDIT : and of course, Le Monde, Libération, and Le Parisien are serious newspapers, nothing like Eduniversal. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 22:07, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

@Launebee: refuses to talk about this part, and even claims that it concerns only "the 1970's (...)a few years with only a few students".
So to put it clearly, there is an an article about the Groupe Union Défense, so it's a bit famous.
But let's check an other article, by Le Figaro this time, and published in 2012 (an other well known newspaper) :
(in French)"les militants se battaient fréquemment avec ceux du GUD dans les années 1980-1990" : UDJF activists and GUD members frequently clashed during the 1980's and the 1990's.
(in French)"Des bastons très violentes entre gudards et antifascistes dont certains ont eu des côtes cassées se sont déroulés près de l'université. Et deux cars de police ont été récemment postés devant la fac" : violent brawls between GUD members and antifascists near the university, some of them had ribs and noses broken. Two police vans had to be permanently dispatched in front of the campus. This part is about recent events, and the article goes on, gibing explanations about how these GUD members enroll in this "prestigious" university. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 02:23, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Panthéon-Assas is here the VICTIM of racism and antisemitsm

What you are quoting (some fights sometimes near the university) is not at all what you are saying, ie foreigners and Jews being commonly beaten up in PA (ratonnades) or PA as an institution having or having the reputation to have an enduring tradition of racism and antisemistism! If you don’t understand that you cannot state that someone or an entity is a place for crimes, you should get informed about defamation. Your articles are only saying that some students had activities outside the university, and they tried and failed to get elected inside, that’s it. It’s not at all attached to PA, and you are yourself quoting that guards had once been put in front of PA, to prevent this violence to touch PA. But such a thing (temporary guard to protect the university from an external thing) exists for every Parisian university, it is Paris in itself that have some violence, especially student ones, perhaps like every capital in the world.

--Launebee (talk) 09:01, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Why are you refering to jew students as "foreigners" ? World War II is over, and you can still be French and jew. You should start to really carefully care about the words you use.
Well, for the rest of your comment, that's only your opinion. And of course it should be kept out of the article (and come on, cops in Front of every universities in Paris because of brawls ?)
I gave you references from well know newspapers (Le Figaro, Le Monde, Libération, and Le Parisien), I gave you the quotes, and their translations. There is a part about it on the French article. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 09:54, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
I did not write that at all, what you are writing is absolutely outrageous!
You cannot give references about one topic and invent anything you like about this topic. These newspapers are not saying that at all, simply because it is false, no court has ever said such despicable things exist in PA, and then it is libelous. Beating up people is a crime, letting that done inside an institution is a crime, having a tradition of racism and antisemitism is a crime, saying that someone has this reputation without any actual evidence is a crime. You cannot tell such things if it is not true. Any journalist who would have made such libelous statement would be prosecuted, and even if it was done, copying libelous statements from any source is in itself a crime.
You are now making libelous statements against PA and me. You seriously have to stop!
--Launebee (talk) 10:47, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
You have used to word "foreigners" to described thoses students, victims of racism and antisemitism. This kind of speech in France is deeply connected to far-right movements, and is considered as hate-speech. You say that you know a lot of things about France, so that's definitely something that you can't ignore. You are responsible for what you say.
I have given references from well know newspapers, I have quoted them, and I have translated these quotes. I have even shown that this topic is tackled on the French article. Your denial won't lead you anywhere. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 12:23, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
I clearly did not describe Jews as foreigners. Your attack is absolutely despicable. --Launebee (talk) 14:28, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

As there is no valid opposition, this shall be added to the Lead, just like the scandals are mention in the Sciences Po lead. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 09:45, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Illegal activities in SP have been pointed out by official state agencies and by courts. What you want to put in here is only libel. --Launebee (talk) 12:26, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Still nothing relevant to say about these references ? Good. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 13:01, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Again, just a selection. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 09:49, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

As stated under, PA is a victim of this swastikas, because of its strong Jewish community, it asked for prosecution. If a synaguogue receives swastikas, we wouldn’t summarize "antisemitism in this synaguogue"! --Launebee (talk) 12:28, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Sexism

Just a short selection of articles related to sexism issues at this university.

of course more can be added, and feel free to do so. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 08:59, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Not at all the deed of Panthéon-Assas

Private website, nothing to do with the university in itself (see under). --Launebee (talk) 12:28, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Unfair competition

Again, just a selection. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 09:12, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Global answer

Except those on the private school, none of these articles are related to the deeds of PA as an institution. In every academic institution, some students are doing things. For instance, in Harvard, blacks deans portraits have been crossed, but it is not Harvard as an institution at all. However, in Stanford, there has been concerns about the board attitude toward sexual assault: there, it is the institution (but even here, you could not repeat this as a fact until it proven in court). For SP, all of the scandals deal with SP as an institution, with judicicial sentences and state agency's report. For PA, I don't see how the managerial instances are anyhow involved in, for example in your claim of sexism, the fact one of its first year student created and then deleted a private-owned website (all your links deal with this event). Nobody is even accusing PA of any wrongdoing in your links. About racism, these articles do not support your original claims. About the private school, it is this time not libelous, but it is a very specific topic (is a law school allowed to create its own preparatory school) and not a controversy. --Launebee (talk) 02:07, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

The title is clearly a legal threat, and you have been warned against that. @Hasteur: told you less than a week ago that "Danger, we've entered NLT territory". You refused to remove your comment, and you said what you simply started a "discussion as to whether material is libelous (is not a legal threat)".
Today you don't even try to start a discussion about that, that is say using Arguments to proove your statement.
That's clearly an intimidation attempt. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 11:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
No it's not, and I don't think Hasteur entered the AN/I thread with a sufficient level of understanding of the discussion. Discussing or declaring something to be libelous is not in itself a legal threat. Not a legal threat; "This is libelous". A legal threat; "This is libelous and I'm going to sue" or "This is libelous and I'll be contacting my attorneys about this" or anything to that effect. Anything that has the express intention of legal intimidation, which I'm not reading anywhere in the above, is a legal threat. That said, Launebee I'm going to ask you to refrain from declaring anything as being libelous or defamatory as it is not unreasonable for an editor to perceive it as such. Per NLT; if you repeatedly assert that another editor's comments are "defamatory" or "libelous," that editor might interpret this as a threat to sue, even if that is not your intention. It's a "trigger" word that leaves people uneasy. Understandably so since usually these terms are generally used in the context of lawsuits. Mr rnddude (talk) 11:55, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
@Mr rnddude:I understand what you mean. In the same time, isn’t it important for him to know that what he is writing is seriously wrong, to the extent that he has to stop and the admins have to delete history? Yes, it is legally wrong, but it is also morally wrong to freely drag one’s reputation in the mire.
What he is trying to do is to say, there are newspapers talking in the same time of PA and Jews, so let’s say that this university has a tradition of having its Jews beaten up! And, by the way, this user is not happy with that, so let’s say he’s saying Jews are foreigners! He just 'can’t', because it is morally wrong. Don’t you think?
--Launebee (talk) 17:59, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
Launebee Doubling down on statements that editors have suggested could get you into trouble only demonstrates that you don't understand the point of NLT. Do not, under any circumstances, use language that suggests or implies that you are going to use legal action to get your point of view. Your repeated pirouetting about the definitions of the terms does not remove the chilling effect that your words and phrases have imparted to this page and to the ANI discussion. Next time you claim that you claim "libel" I will suggest that your repeated doubling down on your statements regarding the content have risen sufficiently to the point that administrative revocation of your ability to edit this encyclopedia should be enacted. I say again (along with Mr rnddude) knock off any claims of libel. There are other ways to express opposition to sources or claims such as I do not think X is right because Y,R,M, and Z which invites a consensus discussion instead of wielding implied legal threats. Hasteur (talk) 13:10, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
While I understand MrNudule point, I don’t understand yours. Once again, "A discussion as to whether material is libelous is not a legal threat." --Launebee (talk) 23:53, 13 December 2016 (UTC)


Controversies over the decades.

It's weird that this article, unlike Sciences Po's, doesn't have a "controversy" section. For decades, many newspapers, radios, and Tvs have published articles about problems women and/or minorities have to face there. Silencing theses issue clearly goes against NPOV. It needs to be addressed. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 16:12, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Hotbed of French Far right

The university has been considered for decades as the hotbed of French far right. Since its creation, ratonnades have been a common sight ·  ·  ·  · .

A short selection on references on that topic :

Videos and photos are also provided on that article by France Info (radio network). XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 16:12, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

References

  1. Philippe Rochette, « L'université en Ile-de-France (4) Paris-II Assas, la longue marche vers le centre droit », dans Libération, le 24 mai 1995, consulté sur www.liberation.fr le 23 juillet 2016
  2. "Les « rats noirs » du GUD". www.leparisien.fr/. 19 January 2016.
  3. Olivier Faye (25 December 2009). "Forum étudiant, GUD: la petite agitation nationaliste dans les facs". droites-extremes.blog.lemonde.fr.
  4. Olivier Faye (8 June 2015). "Avec « Assas Patriote », l'extrême droite tente de reprendre pied à Paris-II Panthéon-Assas". droites-extremes.blog.lemonde.fr.
  5. Véronique Soulé (12 November 2007). "Une excroissance du GUD emménage à Assas". www.liberation.fr.

Sexism

Just a short selection of articles related to sexism issues at this university. These articles clearly say that sexism is a real issue there.

XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 16:12, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Translation help needed

Could someone uninvolved who speaks French please evaluate the section above and tell us whether the sources claim what the person posting them says they claim? A question about this has been posted at Misplaced Pages:Help desk#Are talk pages subject to rules about content and how to address repetitive claims in talk pages? Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 13:35, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

@Guy Macon: I am neither an admin nor involved. French is probably my third language. I skimmed all the above citations.
All the allegations are historical: 2007-2016.
The far-right allegations relate to a group, who claimed to be students, called Assas Patriote, and who claimed to be successors to Groupe Union Défense (GUD). Their activities may have taken place at the university, but there is no indication that they were condoned by the university; indeed, the swastika-daubing incident mentioned in the Europe1 citation was condemned by it. IMO they have no place in University of Paris II Panthéon-Assas, though they might merit addition to the GUD article.
The sexism allegations relate to a short-lived website, bestassas.com. I can see no reason for enwiki to cover that unpleasant one-off affair at all. Narky Blert (talk) 17:37, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Thanks! That doesn't seem like it supports the claim "The university has been considered for decades as the hotbed of French far right". XIIIfromTOKYO , do you have a source that actually says that about this university?
As a general question just for my personal curiosity; in the US many universities tend to be somewhat leftist (in the US meaning of "left"). Is the same true of French Universities? Is there any evidence that the University of Paris II Panthéon-Assas is more to the right or left than is typical? As an analogy, in the US the University of California, Berkeley tends to lean more to the left than most and Texas A&M tends to lean more to the right than most. How about University of Paris II Panthéon-Assas? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:18, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
I think @Narky Blert: ment that most of these articles were published during the 2007-2016 period. I don't understand how an article published in 1995 could cover that period. Speaking of which, could you provide a translation from this article "Paris-II Assas continua donc la tradition de la faculté de droit de Paris, marquée, sans remonter aux Camelots du roi, par les riches heures de la corpo, présidée par Le Pen, et d'Occident, dirigé par Madelin. La tradition se perd. L'extrême droite lyncheuse, faute d'adversaires, a perdu son ressort anticommuniste".
An other is also needed from this article... : "Le local que la direction de l'université de droit Paris-II Panthéon-Assas vient d'attribuer au RED - le Rassemblement des étudiants de droite - dérange. (...) Car même si le RED n'a été créé qu'en 2000, il a déjà une lourde histoire derrière lui. Il n'est autre que le petit frère du GUD, le Groupe union défense née en 1968 à Assas et connu pour ses liens avec le Front de la jeunesse, son logo en forme de croix celtique et ses positions... radicales'"
...This article... Cette arrivée (...) attire l'attention dans un établissement marqué par un passé de violences liées au militantisme d'extrême droite.]
...or what's your opinion of what is said in this article.
And for Guy Macon's personal curiosity, yes some colleges have that kind of reputation in France. Toulouse Le Mirail, Rennes-II, or Paris VIII are often associated with left to far-left groups. Assas-Paris-II or Lyon-III are often associated with right to far-right groups. The Groupe Union Défense is notoriously associated with Assas. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 18:53, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Those are opinion pieces about elements of the student body from time to time. They are not about the university as such.
I could comment about les événements and their inexact parallels in UK and US, but that would be WP:OFFTOPIC. Narky Blert (talk) 21:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
The student body is one aspect of the university, its research an other, its History an other one, its campus... Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view clearly says that an article must represent "all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". That includes controversies.
You have failed to provide any translation so far. Still, you have managed to make a few mistakes, including claiming that an article published in 1995 was dealing with 2010's events.
Once again, there is a village pump for non-French speakers on FR.wiki. Not only a contributor form FR.wiki will be able to check these articles, but will also be able to under the political references in them. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 09:29, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Categories: