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What in the name is "anti-trans activism"?

Persecuting minorities is not activism. The way he treated trans people, if he made such comments towards black people he'd be racist. If he made such comments towards Muslims he wouldn't be an "anti-Muslim activist". Making derogatory comments is not a contribution to a noble cause but very simply hate speech and should be labelled as such. It's transphobia and the relevant section should be renamed as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.25.38.31 (talk) 21:28, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Probably also worth mentioning that "trans rights activist" (or TRA) is a term used in transphobic communities to talk about people who are transgender regardless of their politics. It's not a neutral term. Transphobes routinely use it to deny trans people their identities and it is not widely used outside transphobic communities (just like "gender critical"). The article should just clarify that he's an opponent of trans rights. The "activism" he is a critic of is as simple as "being trans". We don't call the KKK "anti-black activists" and I don't think Misplaced Pages lends credence to Russian claims about "homosexual propaganda" either, so there's no reason to use transphobic language here. -- 2001:16B8:18A5:D300:C55F:7884:43D:5320 (talk) 11:20, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

What would be a most suitable way to describe him? Transphobe would possibly describe his attitudes but it feels incomplete and misses out his actions. Using phrases like transphobe activist may be a more complete description? John Cummings (talk) 16:58, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Oh, for heaven's sake, people. This is an encyclopedia. It's meant to be unbiased and scholarly. No, you cannot call him a transphobe because you personally disagree with his views regarding trans activism's effect on women's rights. The article is already badly slanted and biased, but there are limits that could put Misplaced Pages in danger of legal action if breached and that's one of them. The WP:BLP rules exist just for that reason. Lilipo25 (talk) 17:48, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

On this note, it's recently been edited to "anti-trans controversy." I reverted to anti-trans activism as there was consensus that this is the best wording for this section. It is descriptive, and also neutral. Yes, everyone can see that he is deeply transphobic, but this is still a value judgement, and the article should refrain from that no matter how obvious it may be.Wikiditm (talk) 14:44, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

@Wikiditm:Can you link me to the page where consensus was reached on this? It seems heavily biased to call the category "anti-transgender" at all instead of something neutral like "transgender controversy", and I can't find the discussion on it. Thanks. Lilipo25 (talk) 01:18, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

found the transphobe — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.110.165.109 (talk) 14:21, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

@Wikiditm:It has now been over six weeks since I asked for a link to this "consensus" that you cited as justification to revert to biased language like "anti-transgender activism". It is not the first time I have asked to see it (although I asked someone else the last time and not you), but once again, I am met with silence when asked where it is. I cannot find it myself, so I will ask yet again: where and when was this consensus that you cite reached, and may I see a link to the page? Thank you. Lilipo25 (talk) 20:00, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi. I do not use wikipedia often so just saw all your replies here. I think it is obvious that the consensus is for the current wording. If you have a reason it should be changed, and build a consensus around that, then I'll be happy for it to be changed. With all due respect, I don't think this will happen - the current wording is fine.Wikiditm (talk) 14:20, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your civil reply, it is much appreciated. In order for there to be a consensus, there must have been a discussion where a consensus was reached. No one has been able to provide a link to that, but trying to get neutral wording into this article or any other about issues regarding trans activism and women's rights is slightly more difficult than nailing Jello to a tree and I give up. Thanks again for being polite and not dismissive. Lilipo25 (talk) 15:16, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

@Wikiditm:You have long reverted all attempts to make the wording n this section neutral and insisted that the biased wording "Anti-Trans" was reached "by consensus". I have now requested several times that you provide a link to this consensus and waited months for your reply. You have refused to respond. Since I can find no evidence of this consensus and you can provide none, it seems clear that there was no such consensus reached at all. Your refusal to respond is WP:DISCUSSFAIL. I will therefore change the language to the more neutral "Transgender Controversy". Lilipo25 (talk) 15:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

"Controversy" section headings are not favored by policy, particularly where there are no sources suggesting that the BLP subject is, in fact, participating in a "Transgender controversy". Reverted therefore per BRD. Newimpartial (talk) 16:40, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? You have never edited this page before, but you're now just going to follow me around Misplaced Pages and harass me by immediately revert anything I do in minutes out of spite bc I disagreed with your bullying on another page? You actually put a watch on my edits just to do this? This is WP:HOUNDING and is expressly forbidden as harassment.

Misplaced Pages "discourages" entire sections devoted to criticism and controversies, but there's no way activists will allow that section to be cut down and integrated into the article as it should be. Since the section exists, Misplaced Pages allows the use of "Controversy" in the section heading. Re WP:CRIT:

"Controversy" section: For a specific controversy that is broadly covered in reliable sources. Various positions, whether pro or contra, are given due weight as supported by the sources. The topic of the controversy is best named in the section title. Lilipo25 (talk) 17:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

There is not anything untoward in my adding yet another anti-trans activist BLP to my watchlist; this has nothing to do with your "bullying" accusation (which is unCIVIL, unsubstantiated, and a violation of WP:AGF), nor am I singling out any editor by doing so. I watch the pages of anti-Trans activists for POV and BLP issues, but this is one I had missed until recently.

Substantively, I don't see any evidence of a "controversy", what I see is what RS describe as "activism", so that is what the section should be called. We do not impose FALSEBALANCE by artificially creating "pro" and "contra" positions that do not reflect what RS say. Newimpartial (talk) 17:27, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I resent your declaration that editing for more neutral language makes me an "anti-Trans activist". That is offensive and an insult, again. You are WP: HOUNDING. Lilipo25 (talk) 17:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Adding a page to my watchlist that is within my well-established areas of WP editing interest cannot misconstrued as HOUNDING. Please AGF, and provide some evidence (besides YOUDONTLIKEIT) that "controversy" - a heading that is unsourced and discouraged by policy - is somehow more neutral than "activism". Newimpartial (talk) 17:36, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

The current wording and section heading ("Anti-Transgender activism") is the neutral and long-standing wording. Editors should be aware that further reverts will result in them being reported for 3RR violations. Bastun 17:49, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I figured you'd be along to join in. I can't help but wonder why you didn't respond any time during the last 2 months when I asked repeatedly for the link to the "consensus" that keeps being claimed was reached on this term and no one would reply at all.

As usual, there's no way to fight trans activists who want this page to be as negative as possible. You now have someone new joining in to help keep it that way. Lilipo25 (talk) 17:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

If you can't tell the difference between sourced discussion per BALANCE and being "as negative as possible", then you should not be editing the subject in question IMO. Newimpartial (talk) 18:00, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

For example, this section was opened by an editor who believed the heading "Anti-trans activism" was too sympathetic to the subject, but for some reason you find it to be too "negative". Newimpartial (talk) 18:08, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I support "Anti-trans activism" or "Anti-transgender activism". I see "Anti-trans harassment", "Transphobic comments" etc. to be unjustified by the current sourcing, whilst anything with "trans(gender)" and not the "anti-" is potentially misleading to someone just skimming. "Controversy" is unjustified by the current sourcing for a couple of the paragraphs, which do not comment on alternate views to Linehan's. (I'm sure Linehan himself would much prefer "Anti-transgender activism" rather than "Transgender controversy" to be the title.) Can we please make sure that the "t" in "trans(gender)" is lowercase though? I've changed it to lowercase myself because I don't have reason to expect that anyone will find this typographical change controversial. — Bilorv (talk) 00:01, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing "anti-trans" nor "phobic" in his views. It does not reflect his positions, in fact, it's a complete hatchet job, opinionated take on it. "Views on transgeder issues" would be a more adequate title. 92.238.89.128 (talk) 17:40, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

However, IP, by policy WP follows the sources rather than the opinions of editors. Newimpartial (talk) 18:08, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

The fact his views are anti-transgender is surely not up for debate? It's been verified by numerous reliable sources, and is also obvious from just looking at what he's said. He's certainly not pro-transgender!Wikiditm (talk) 23:27, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

It is, of course, very much up for debate. He is anti-self-ID because he believes, as many others do, that it is a policy that is harmful to women's sex-based rights, and anti-medicalisation of children with puberty blockers, particularly by the Tavistock Centre (which just last night was exposed by a Newsnight investigation as putting kids on the experimental blockers without proper evaluation first and over the objections of many health care officials - just as Linehan had said they were doing all along and which this article suggests makes him 'transphobic'). Lilipo25 (talk) 00:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Those are all anti-transgender stances. His motivation for them may be transphobia, or may be women's rights, it doesn't really matter. Those stances are all against what transgender people are widely campaigning for.Wikiditm (talk) 07:26, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Once again, this article doesn't say that makes him transphobic: the sources say it makes him transphobic. This article follows the sources. Newimpartial (talk) 00:49, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Once again, other reliable sources agreed with him, but every time any are included for balance, they get reverted again. Which allows for the justification of biased section headings like "Anti-transgender activism".Lilipo25 (talk) 02:08, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

What "reliable sources"? Newimpartial (talk) 02:16, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

The heading "anti-transgender activism" is a violation of WP:LABEL: "unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." I don't see the term "anti-transgender" sourced anywhere, and even if it were, it would need attribution, which is not feasible for section headings. Why can't we just use the lead wording, which has bipartisan endorsement from Lilipo25 and Newimpartial: "critic of transgender rights activism"? How is "anti-transgender" - which is vague - actually better? Crossroads 17:51, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

This is clearly correct and in line with Misplaced Pages policy. Lilipo25 (talk) 05:42, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

If the heading were to be changed, say, to "criticism of transgender rights activism", then this wouldn't accurately reflect the content in the section underneath, most of which does not actually refer to transgender rights activism (having read through it, next to none of it does). WP:LABEL refers to value-laden terms, which the current heading "anti-transgender activism" is not. It is neutral and accurate, and reflects the content underneath.Wikiditm (talk) 07:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Please do not remove properly sourced and accurate content. If we're going to include his tweeted defense of Rowling (which is a minor occurrence not covered by any UK newspaper or outlet and not really worthy of inclusion in a Misplaced Pages biography anyway), then we must include specifically what he was defending her against, as it is included in the source. In addition, he did not address his comment to Hozier; he tagged Hozier in to the conversation and that is what the source says, so you can't change that (although, frankly, Hozier is irrelevant here and takes the paragraph off on a tangent).

Hi. I haven't done any such thing. I reworded a paragraph which was very distant from the source backing it. I did this to improve readability and also make it accurately reflect the source, which it now does a lot better. The final sentence is still not very readable, and will need improving in the future, but is ok for now.Wikiditm (talk) 07:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

The original paragraph was very close to the source; your rewording was inaccurate at best. Lilipo25 (talk) 10:15, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

If you consider my rewording to be inaccurate or not close to the source, then please say how and we can work on improving it and getting it closer to the source. Merely branding it inaccurate is not particularly helpful.Wikiditm (talk) 10:59, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I believe I already outlined (in the above and below comments) how it was inaccurate: stating that the tweet was to Hozier instead of saying that Hozier was tagged, as the source says, and removing six words from his direct quote in the source that specifically stated he considers trans rights to be human rights. Also, you changed it to say that he defended Rowling's comments, when the source says that he defended her from abuse she was receiving over those comments; the meaning is very different. Lilipo25 (talk) 13:54, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

This is pretty ridiculous. The distinction between "tweeting to someone" and "tweeting generally but only tagging one person" is wafer thin. I deleted 6 words from a quote which didn't change the meaning. Neither of these changes are at all substantial. And then you make up that I changed it to say he defended Rowling's comments, which I did not. Please keep the spirit of cooperation in mind.Wikiditm (talk) 17:40, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

"Cooperation" doesn't mean agreeing with egregiously biased edits, and I would appreciate it if you would permanently cease using the tactic of pretending that I am simply difficult and 'uncooperative' when you make them and receive civil, reasoned disagreement in response.

The distinction is hardly "wafer thin" - I have frequently tweeted to all of my followers but tagged a person who might be interested in the tweet. That doesn't mean the tweet is addressed to that person alone, and you cannot make an assumption that is not in the source. And deleting only the six words in the short direct quote being discussed which specifically contradict the "he's transphobic" narrative being pushed here is blatant bias. Lilipo25 (talk) 22:41, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Most importantly, you absolutely cannot alter the words of his tweet, which is quoted in full in the source, to delete the part where he agreed that trans rights are human rights. The edit I made already stuck very close to what the source says. Thank you. Lilipo25 (talk) 19:59, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I removed a part in parenthesis to improve readability. It is not great to quote things in full if readability can be improved (and meaning still conveyed) from part of the quote, especially when the full thing is pretty cumbersome.Wikiditm (talk) 07:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Cumbersome? It's a tweet - less than 280 characters in total. And the tweet is the subject of the paragraph. You removed a total of six words which contradicted him being "anti-transgender"; it didn't make it more "readable" but merely changed the intent and meaning of what he said. Lilipo25 (talk) 10:15, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't think the meaning and intent of the tweet, which seems to be primarily about criticising Hozier's approach to the topic, was changed by removing the brackets. On the other hand, it became a lot more readable, which was why I made the change. Perhaps there's a better solution?Wikiditm (talk) 10:59, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

A better solution would be not to remove part of a direct quote that is neither long nor cumbersome, but changes the meaning of what he said to eliminate his support of trans rights as human rights. Lilipo25 (talk) 13:54, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Most of it is criticism of transgender rights activism. Gender self-ID, medical transition of children, Mermaids, Tavistock Centre, and so-called "gender ideology" are all about transgender rights activism. The portions that are not about activism per se aren't really 'activism' on his part either - in fact, criticism more closely fits the section as a whole. "Anti-transgender" is obviously a value laden label, same as "transphobic" is, which is specifically mentioned at WP:LABEL. Crossroads 01:42, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm going to start an RfC on this and it would be great to have your input there.Wikiditm (talk) 07:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I also agree with Crossroads reasoning above. The section header "Anti-transgender" neither reflects the content of the section nor is it in anyway a neutral term. It is also an extremely vague descriptor. The change to "Criticism of transgender rights activism" is a much clearer descriptor. Happy to comment in RFC if started. AutumnKing (talk) 07:07, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I concur with Autumnking and Crossroads. Crossroads has made a very clear case to change the section heading and backed it up with Misplaced Pages rules. There is no doubt that "Anti-transgender" is neither neutral nor clear and should be removed. I will also be happy to comment in RFC if started. Lilipo25 (talk) 10:15, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I've just started an RfC on the topic of this heading below. Tagging everyone who has participated in the discussion above and would welcome comments. John Cummings Lilipo25 Newimpartial Bastun Bilorv Crossroads AutumnKing. Wikiditm (talk) 10:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Popcornfud and Ceoil have also recently edited the section and should be notified of the RFC. Also Bring back Daz Sampson, who was very involved in the debate over this heading on the ANI that you opened last month. Lilipo25 (talk) 15:28, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

RfC on heading on Linehan's activities in relation to transgender causes and people

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There was some heatetd discussion as to whether "Anti-transgender activism" is the status quo ante; having investigated both the article's history and the talk page archives, it looks like there were discussions on this matter in early 2019, namely Talk:Graham_Linehan/Archive_1#"Transgender_rights" which first establishes a consensus for "Anti-transgender activism". This was swapped to "Anti-transgender activity" by an editor that felt that the phrase "activism" was too charitable. Soon afterward, there was an RfC on the general content of that section, which was closed in favor of the section standing as it was. The subheading title was soon switched back to "activism", and remained without serious opposition for several months. While the opposition to this subheading has grown beyond tendentious swaps to "Pro-woman activism" in recent months, such objections do not apear to have ever gained a solid consensus to override the status quo ante, and thus "Anti-transgender activism" remains the status quo. _signed, Rosguill 21:11, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

This section has long had the heading "Anti-transgender activism." However, this has been challenged and changed a number of times with many alternatives being proposed, including "Transphobia", "Anti-trans controversy", "Transgender controversy", "Anti-transgender harassment", "Transphobic comments", and "Views on transgender issues." Following a recent edit, it currently stands at "Criticism of transgender rights activism." What should the heading be?Wikiditm (talk) 07:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support current wording of "Criticism of transgender rights activism" It needs to be both unbiased and clear. Anything with "Anti-transgender" in it is neither of those things. My preference would be for "Views on transgender issues", but I believe that the current heading of "Criticism of transgender rights activism", added by Crossroads, is also a very good one: it is specific and neutral in tone. I have no objection to keeping that. Lilipo25 (talk) 10:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support "Opposition to Transgender Rights Activism" as suggested by Equivamp, below, changing my vote from "Criticism of transgender rights activism", above. Equivamp's suggestion is the most neutral and clear heading proposed yet. Lilipo25 (talk) 22:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

• My personal view is that the old heading, "Anti-transgender activism", is accurate, neutral, concise, and true to the material of the section. All the suggested alternatives do not meet one or more of these criteria. For example, anything which suggests Linehan is transphobic (or perhaps anything which focuses on the controversial nature of his activism) is not neutral. A heading with the word "comments" or "views" or "harassment" is not true to the material underneath, or accurate, as the section is about a wider activism which may encompass more than just one of these terms. The most recent change, to "criticism of transgender rights activism", also fails to meet this criterion. Looking through the section, very little of it is accurately described by that heading. Firstly, the majority of what is covered is not accurately described as "criticism" but a more general "opposition." Secondly, the majority of what is being opposed is not accurately described as "transgender rights activism." The most noteworthy parts of his activism are the ongoing opposition to Mermaids and the Tavistock Centre, along with the police warning he received not to contact Stephanie Hayden (who is transgender). The Tavistock Centre is an NHS clinic, and so is not appropriately summarised as "transgender rights activism." The interaction with Stephanie Hayden (see ) again has nothing to do with transgender rights activism. The opposition to Mermaids is perhaps the only part which is accurately described like this, but is only really a half-truth. Mermaids does engage in transgender rights activism, and Linehan is opposed to that, but his opposition is really to everything which Mermaids does - including medical counseling and other activities which are not accurately described as transgender rights activism. For these reasons, I think this is a poor heading for the section. The previous heading, "Anti-transgender activism", correctly encapsulates all of the material. Linehan has stood in opposition to transgender rights activism in the Mermaids example, but also transgender healthcare in Tavistock, and transgender individuals in the Hayden example. The main opposition to this previous heading seems to be that it is not neutral. I think it's worth pointing out that it's been criticised on both sides for this, some people saying it is too nice to Linehan, while others saying it is too disparaging. In reality, I think this is perfectly neutral. "Activism" is neutral and encompasses all that Linehan does, without passing judgment (one can surely imagine activism you consider "good" and activism you consider "bad"). "transgender" is the topic to which his activism relates. All of the material relates to this topic somehow. Some of it relates to transgender healthcare, some of it relates to transgender activism, some of it relates to transgender individuals, but all of it is related to transgender experience and debate in some way. Finally, if the heading were just "transgender activism" it would be almost universally misunderstood to mean that Linehan is advocating alongside the trans community, when he is actually in opposition. The suffix "anti" shouldn't be interpreted here as "bad", but "opposed to." People can be "anti-capitalist" or "anti-abortion" or anti any position on any number of debates. This is a neutral and accurate way of summarising their position without applying any value or judgement one way or the other.Wikiditm (talk) 11:30, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I have laid out my own position below, but felt in necessary to directly address you point regarding the prefix "anti". You are right that it means "opposed to". If someone is therefore described as "anti-transgender" what does that imply they are opposed to? The implication is that the person is against transgender people in general, whereas Linehan has directly stated the opposite. Linehan says he celebrates that trans people are at last finding acceptance: “That’s obviously wonderful.” But, he says: “I disagree fundamentally with certain aspects of current activism. They don’t realise the damage done by certain outrageous claims.” The term is essentially synonymous with transphobic, which in a WP:BLP fails any measure of neutrality. AutumnKing (talk) 12:08, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

The section in its current form has varied examples of what Linehan is against - transgender rights activism, but also certain elements of transgender rights, transgender healthcare, and certain transgender individuals. Essentially, on anything related to transgender issues, Linehan places himself in opposition (anti-) to the transgender community. This is a personal and political philosophical stance which is reflected throughout the material in the section. This opposition isn't necessarily good or bad, it's just opposition. Transphobia, on the other hand, is a value-laden term and so should not feature in the heading.Wikiditm (talk) 17:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree the section illustrates the things that Linehan is against, where I would disagree is that the term "anti-transgender" is sufficiently precise to encompass such. Whilst the prefix "anti" is not necessarily good or bad, to phrase as such one must be directly opposed to something. Linehan is not opposed to the transgender community (which in of itself is represented by diverse views and opinions); he is opposed to particular issues. There is nothing neutral in the label, to be anti-abortion is against abortion; anti-capitalist is against capitalism; anti-transgender is therefore against transgender people. That is neither neutral nor is it what the sources show Linehan to be. AutumnKing (talk) 17:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support current wording of "Criticism of transgender rights activism", as the most literal and neutral descriptor of the section’s content. Heading the section as "Anti-transgender activism" appears to be neither neutral or accurate. (Strikethrough due to proposal by Equivamp, supported below) Whilst Linehan is clearly a vocal critic in this area, none of the content regarding his actions clearly qualify as "activism". Labeling his actions as "anti-transgender" is full of ambiguity. In this instance, his comments are clearly in opposition to a range of issues, but nowhere does he disagree that transgender people do or should exist or have rights. (see ) This is a WP:BLP, and use of such a section header would appear to go against WP:BLPSTYLE where it states Do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources. Instead use clear, direct language and let facts alone do the talking. From a perusal of the sources, I do not see Linehan being commonly labelled as anti-transgender. Additionally, the phrase anti-transgender is nearly synonymous with the label transphobic, which WP:LABEL expressly includes as value-laden. As such, I believe that the current section title of “Criticism of transgender rights activism” is the most appropriate. AutumnKing (talk) 12:08, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I restored the consensus version, "Anti-transgender activism", as it's the long-standing version, has consensus, and I didn't know what "2-1 majority on Talo" meant. I guess they mean "Talk"? The section on the talk page here is long, has been moribund since April, and has a handful of participants over the last couple of days. That's certainly not sufficient to establish that consensus has changed, and claiming that "the old title wasn't in compliance with policy, my current version is" does not make it so. Bastun 12:23, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment There does not appear to have ever been any such consensus. I have asked at least a half-dozen times over the course of a year for you and/or Wikiditm to provide a link to a discussion where any consensus on this heading was ever reached, as I am unable to locate one. Neither of you has ever responded, so it would appear not to exist at all. You cannot simply revert the heading to this repeatedly and declare that it is the "consensus" version without there ever having been any such consensus. This is not good faith editing, and you should not have changed it after this RFC was opened to discuss it and while it had only just begun being discussed. I will change it back; please wait until a consensus is actually reached here before altering it again or declaring it the consensus. Thank you. Lilipo25 (talk) 04:28, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

• Anti-transgender activism was the consensus version, is neutral, is accurate, concise, and true to the material of the section, as argues elegantly by Wikidtm above. Linehan's activities over the last couple of years, as covered in the material in that well-referenced section, transcend mere "criticism of transgender rights activism" and encompass actual activism on his own part. Bastun 12:23, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment I ask again, as I have numerous times over the past year, for a link to the discussion where this "consensus" on "Anti-transgender activism" was reached. I have never seen any consensus on this, but each time the topic is discussed, several editors state that heading is the consensus version and restore it on that basis. Please link to the consensus discussion. Thank you. Lilipo25 (talk) 14:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

• Anti-transgender activism is the neutral, accurate phrase to be used. Linehan's activities are well documented as anti-trans, regardless of how he would like to frame his behavior. Material corroborating that has been well supplied in the past. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

User:HandThatFeeds May I ask which corroborating material has been supplied to justify the section header? I have gone through the sources in the section, as best I can due to paywalls, and not a single one describes Lineham as an "anti-transgender activist". One calls him transphobic. Nearly all refer to his disputes with and criticism of transgender activists. WP:BLPSTYLE states Do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources. Not only is the term anti-transgender both contentious and loaded, it is also imprecise, in that it is not clear what exactly the subject is opposed to. AutumnKing (talk) 15:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose anything which says "anti-trans", "anti-transgender", or "transphobic". These are obviously value-laden labels, thus falling under WP:LABEL, which states that these are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. (Emphasis added.) In-text attribution must be used in such cases. Note that these terms also have zero sources supporting them, which makes them WP:Original research as well. Likewise, there are zero sources calling him an activist.
  Support "Criticism of transgender activism", "Criticism of transgender rights activism", or "Views on transgender issues". Most of the section is in fact about his criticism of transgender activism. Gender self-identification, medical transition of children, Mermaids, the Tavistock Centre's use of puberty blockers, and the comments Rowling received all concern transgender activism, and this makes up most of the section. Even the bits about the IT Crowd episode and Stephanie Hayden use sources that contain "activism" or "activist" in the title. "Views on transgender issues" works as well, and actually seems ideal. I'm not sure why some editors are so driven to describe Linehan's views in the section heading, something not generally done in other biographies.
  I emphasize that any claimed weaknesses in the alternative phrasings in no way allow us to default to the pre-existing wording, which is a blatant WP:BLP violation. Crossroads 13:53, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Could you point me to some discussion (outside of this page) where the phrase "anti-transgender activism" has been found to be "value-laden" in the sense of WP:LABEL? I am aware that "transphobic" has been discussed and should not be used without attribution except where it appears very widely with respect to the subject. However, "anti-transgender activism" seems much more neutral to me. Newimpartial (talk) 22:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

It sounds extremely similar to "trans rights activism" (TRA), which is a slur used in transphobic communities like Mumsnet or the now-banned "gender critical" subreddit as a synonym for simply being transgender. The question isn't whether the individual words are transphobic, the question is whether the term as a whole is value-laden, which it is. It would be trivial to rephrase his opposition to transgender people in a less value-laden way even if it means you don't get to use a snappy (but ambiguous and divisive) label for it. -- 2001:16B8:18A5:D300:C55F:7884:43D:5320 (talk) 11:35, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Its value-laden nature is obvious, in a WP:BLUESKY fashion. Note that the "words to watch" at WP:LABEL are not meant to be an exhaustive list of value-laden labels, per the ellipsis (...) shown there. Crossroads 03:40, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

But it isn't BLUESKY at all. We can (and do) use all kinds of "Anti-X activism" labels in wikivoice, without difficulty from "values", from "anti-social activism" to "anti-capitalist activism" to "anti-GMO activism" by way of "anti-pedophile activism" and "anti-Trump activism". What makes "anti-transgender activism" uniquely controversial, besides your own evident POV? Newimpartial (talk) 14:06, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Just to butt in here: anti-capitalist = opposing the concept of capitalism; anti-GMO = opposing use of GMO; anti-pedophile = opposing the legitimisation of pedophilia; anti-Trump = opposing the politics of Trump; anti-transgender = opposing the concept of being transgender. That is not what the sources show Linehan actions to be doing, nor is it a label given to him within them. AutumnKing (talk) 14:19, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Linehan denies the concept of gender, expresses the belief that trans people are labouring under 'delusions', opposes reassignment surgery and supports gender conversion therapy; that is 'opposing the concept of being transgender'in any practical sense. Please see the examples I have provided below. Newimpartial (talk) 23:48, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

And just as a note to the closer, Crossroads has not provided any evidence, nor has he received any evidential support, for his assertion that "anti-transgender" is covered by LABEL to a greater extent than, say, anti-gay or anti-black, or that there is any consensus anywhere at WP against using these terms, or to use them only with attribution. Crossroads has also insisted that there are "zero sources calling him an activist", although multiple sourced have in fact been provided describing his "activism" and "campaigns". And an attempt to CRYBLP block consensus, by any editor or small group of editors, to deny consensus and whitewash BLP headings, really needs to fail for the health of the project. Newimpartial (talk) 17:04, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

• Propose "Opposition to transgender activism", as "Criticism" doesn't accurately describe all of what's there (per User:Wikiditm above), and "Opposition to" is clearer than "Anti-transgender". --Equivamp - talk 17:41, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Opposition is definitely a good word that we can use in the heading, and it will help with clarity in distinguishing the heading from transphobia. Any restriction to transgender activism is not so good though. Most of the examples in the text do not relate to transgender activism. For instance, it is wrong for the heading to suggest that the Hayden case was an example of him being opposed to her activism - he received the police warning because of harassment directed at her, the transgender person, not her activism.Wikiditm (talk) 17:47, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

He directly harassed her, but she was chosen as a target because of her activism, yes. So, one form of his opposition to transgender activism is harassment of an individual transgender activist. --Equivamp - talk 17:54, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support "Opposition to transgender activism". It's nice and clear. I personally don't feel that "anti-transgender activism" is neutral - "activism" connotes something positive, or at the very least something with a leg to stand on. His views on transgender people aren't a debate over whether or not dogs or cats are better, they have realistic and tangible (especially for myself, seeing as I live in the UK and have seen first-hand the quite frankly baffling quantity of transphobes we seem to produce) effects on a minority people. Opposition will always be the right word for me. He's not an activist, he's hateful. Anti-transgender activism is not what he's spouting off on, it's an opposition to people advocating for basic human rights.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 18:22, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support "Opposition to transgender activism" I hereby change my vote to support "Opposition to transgender activism, as proposed by Equivamp. It is clear, concise and unbiased. This is an excellent choice.Lilipo25 (talk) 22:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Please remember WP:NOTVOTE. The reasons for supporting something are what is important, not numbers.Wikiditm (talk) 07:14, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Which part of "it is clear, concise and unbiased" didn't sound like reasons to you? Lilipo25 (talk) 08:52, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

• I also support this option alongside what I said in my main comment above. Crossroads 03:40, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
• I would also support the option of "Opposition to transgender activism" as adhering to WP:BLPSTYLE, per my previous comment. AutumnKing (talk) 09:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

• I think Anti-transgender activism is a fine clear and accurate header (while "Criticism of transgender rights activism" is not an accurate or neutral summary), per Wikiditm. I am not opposed to a compromise like the vaguer "Views on transgender issues" if that has more support, although it's true the section extends beyond "views" to things like statements and substantive actions and activities: maybe, taking a cue from how politicians' articles summarize their "views+actions" on topics, we could say something like "Position on transgender issues", if we are going the 'vague' route? "Opposition to transgender rights", to expand on Equivamp's suggestion, would also be good. -sche (talk) 17:56, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
• Anti-transgender activism: the phrase "transgender rights activism" can be used as a dogwhistle by transphobes to refer instead to "transgender people". We shouldn't use it in Misplaced Pages's words for that reason. To the argument that the phrasing "anti-X" is not neutral, I'm a little confused—there's plenty of topics where I'd be happy to call myself "anti-X", even where others might use the phrase disparagingly. He's involved in activism to limit the transgender community, nothing controversial or unclear about that. — Bilorv (Black Lives Matter) 20:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

With regard to usage of "anti-transgender", it is imprecise as a descriptor. What does it denote that the subject is in opposition to? If someone is anti-apartheid, than they are opposed to apartheid. Logically, if someone is anti-transgender, then they are opposed to either transgenderism as a concept or to transgender people themselves. Nothing in the sources supports that. Describing Linehan as "anti-transgender rights" would be more accurate, but still imprecise, as it leaves open to interpretation which rights are being opposed. Additionally, labeling Lineham as "anti-transgender" is not supported by the sources in the article. Equivamp's proposal of "Opposition to transgender activism" seems the most neutral and accurate. The term "transgender activism" is also one commonly used in main stream media, to refer specifically to people campaigning/advocating for particular rights for trans people, which the section demonstrates Linehan is opposed to. AutumnKing (talk) 11:10, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

So - "anti-transgender activism", then? You've convinced me! Bastun 11:17, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Please show me a reliable source describing Linehan as an "anti-transgender activist". That descriptor is not only loaded and inaccurate, it is also unsupported by the sources used in the article, making it a WP:BLP violation, per WP:BLPSTYLE. AutumnKing (talk) 12:02, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I know we are not allowed to use Pinknews any more (!?), but gcn referred to his 'consistently critical campaign against trans issues' and attitude referred to his 'anti-trans crusade'. So 'anti-transgender activism' seems sourced and moderate in this context, though I would personally prefer 'campaign' as a better heading for WP. Linehan certainly does beyond objection to transgender rights to object to certain aspects of transgender existence, as his opposition to reassignment surgery (and related Godwin's Law infractions) makes plain. Newimpartial (talk) 17:31, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Respectfully, I would disagree. The gcn quote consistently critical campaign against trans issues doesn't support "anti-transgender", just "anti-particular-trans-issues". Attitude does refer to Linehan as transphobic, and does so in the source used in the article as well. However, one news source referring to him in that manner does not qualify as commonly described that way in reliable sources. I completely understand why yourself and others view Linehan as transphobic or anti-transgender, but as you yourself say in a previous discussion on this page by policy WP follows the sources rather than the opinions of editors and the sources do not assign those labels to him. Use of them violates WP:BLP. AutumnKing (talk) 18:19, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Disagreement is fine, but I still see mich more here than 'anti-particular-trans-issues', which strikes me as whitewashing in this context. From the gcn piece, for example, he clearly sees himself as playing an active role in support of conversion therapy: 'Feminists all over the world are now looking to the UK as the place where the resistance to all this stuff started: I do like to think I had something to do with that.' And there's his stark opposition to reassignment surgery: 'When I first got into this conversation I would see young girls getting double mastectomies and hysterectomies and I didn’t think I’d have to talk about it long. I thought others would see this was obviously wrong, and step in. None of that happened. I’ve been left swinging in the wind by people who I thought were my friends. I have to keep speaking out.' These are not the actions of someone who is only 'opposing trans activism', this is someone engaged in public opposition to trans issues in general, or rather, to trans identities themselves. Newimpartial (talk) 18:39, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I am left confused by your examples. First, you state that the quote which begins "Feminists all over the world are now looking to the UK" is "clearly" proof that he is playing an active role in supporting conversion therapy, but that quote says nothing at all about conversion therapy, nor does the source it is taken from suggest anywhere that he was referring to conversion therapy. As far as I can tell, Linehan has never stated that he advocates conversion therapy at all. And then you take a quote about "young girls" being given double mastectomies and hysterectomies and say it means he has a "stark opposition to reassignment surgery", but he says nowhere that he is opposed to it in every case or even for adults at all. And then you use both examples to extrapolate that he is opposed to "trans issues in general, or rather, to trans identities themselves". That is a rather large stretch and wholly unsupported by your examples. Lilipo25 (talk) 19:50, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Again, this is the opinion/conclusion you are drawing. One reliable source labels him transphobic. We need more that that to support the use of anti-transgender as a section title, otherwise it goes against WP:BLP. AutumnKing (talk) 20:45, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I am looking at the gcn article right now, and I'm afraid the quote is not in the specific context you claim at all. His request for help for Stella O'Malley is mentioned as one among several other activities of his two paragraphs earlier; the writer does not in fact relate the quote back to that specific activity anywhere. Furthermore, your characterization of gender critical therapists for children with dsyphoria as "gender conversion therapy" is opinion and not fact.

As for the "young girls" quote, there is no evidence that he was referring to reassignment surgery for everyone; "young girls" means only "young girls" unless he said otherwise. And as far as your claim that he has never accepted that reassignment surgery is an appropriate treatment for gender dysphoria, it took me 30 seconds and one google search to find multiple times that he has said exactly that, including an April 9, 2019 tweet in which he said "Transexuals are those who suffer from gender dysphoria and need surgery and drugs to alleviate that." and the Irish Times article from January 22, 2019 in which he was asked about surgery and drugs to treat dysphoria and said "“Adults can do what they want, but it is dangerous to offer surgery and drugs therapy to young teenagers going through puberty." Lilipo25 (talk) 20:57, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

A quick search on this exact story found quite a lot of people talking about this link, such as and . Drawing your attention in particular to the second link, it says "The intention behind the list of therapists has been compared to ‘conversion therapy’. In Ireland, there is currently no legislation which outright bans the practice. During May 2018, the Prohibition of Conversion Therapies Bill passed into the second stage of the Seanad, however it has not been brought forward yet." The implication that this bill, on conversion therapies, will have an impact on "gender critical therapists" is clear.Wikiditm (talk) 18:21, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

And Autumnking, beyond Pinknews we have gcn, Attitude, gay star news,Vox and huffpost.uk referring to Linehan as 'anti-trans' and 'transphobic' in their own editorial voice, and on the other hand, we have him insisting that he isn't. BLP requirements on BALANCE and NPOV in this case seem pretty clear, to me. Newimpartial (talk) 23:43, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Regardless, just a tiny distance below this comment we have a litany of sources from Autumnking2012 that qualify as WP:RS just as much that do not use the term. The section heading fails WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, simple as that. NPOV is based on all the reliable sources, including ones with either POV, and, yeah, British sources too. Crossroads 03:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't think WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV should really be on our radar when trying to decide a heading. Any POV in text should be attributed, which is currently the case, but a heading should not have POV. Any POV, attributed or otherwise, would be undue if appearing in the heading anyway. The aim should be for NPOV.Wikiditm (talk) 06:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Sources that don't use a label cannot be used to imply that said label is controversial, without additional evidence. I am a bit shocked to see you make that argument here, Crossroads, since until now I have only really seen that 'logic' used by right-wing Fringe apologists to try to strip 'far-right' or 'white supremacist' off their favorite articles because not all sources use the term.

You have not established (except for an illicit appeal to 'blue sky' argumentation) that anti-trans is a term requiring attribution per LABEL, much less shown that anyone besides Linehan would argue that he is not, in fact 'anti-trans'. According to our BLP policies, we are not supposed to give undue weight to the article's subject, which your argument here is currently doing since no other sources have been proposed supporting Linehan's POV. Newimpartial (talk) 12:47, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Regarding what you said above - a list of sources that do not use such terms as "anti-trans" or "transphobic" is not an argument against the use of those terms. Only actual dispute over the terms would show them to be controversial - says who? Here's what WP:LABEL says: Value-laden labels...are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. Your claim that it's not value laden is absurd on its face. Speaking of WP:ASPERSIONS, trying to equate me to the far right and white supremacists certainly is aspersions. The differences in sourcing in such cases are obvious - those figures really are widely described as such. Crossroads 15:42, 25 June 2020 (UTC) updated Crossroads 16:33, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

NewImpartial, you absolutely must stop equating editors who offer civil arguments that you don't like to white supremacists.It is WP:UNCIVIL and violates WP:PERSONALATTACKS (and just as a heads up: when you respond with "I never said you were a white supremacist, I just said that only white supremacists say the things you do", that isn't any better). Please stop. Lilipo25 (talk) 16:44, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Crossroads, the fact remains that you are performing exactly the same argumentation as those whitewashing articles on the far-right: they count the RS who don't use a label against those who do, and then insist that BALANCE prevents use of the label. That just isn't how it works: if some quality RS use a label, and others refrain, then the label can still apply in terms of NPOV and BALANCE. If this is true of such value-laden labels as "white supremacist", why wouldn't it be true of the more descriptive "anti-trans" (and parenthetically I would note that you still have not answered my question here about why anti-trans should be used more hesitantly than, say, "anti-Trump", when it comes to attribution. No matter how many synonyms you come up for for "obvious", it just isn't). Newimpartial (talk) 17:31, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Trump is a politician who is unfortunately the current US President; transgender are a group of people. Just another apples and oranges comparison. Crossroads 19:30, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

• Questions - 1) Is "Transgender Rights Activism" a thing? As in, capitalised, used as a common term? Is it the TERF equivalent of... well, TERF? 2) Where in this section does it describe Linehan criticising activism by or on behalf of transgender people? Bastun 08:17, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

There is no proposal to capitalise the term "transgender rights activism". In fact the current proposal is to use "transgender activism", which I would agree with the proposer is a better option. This, or the equivalent "transgender activist", is indeed a common term. It is used in the sources in the article - here , here , here , here and here , also here and here , although the latter two could be argued to be using Linehan's voice. It is also a commonly used term in media articles generally. A quick google search generated the following for the Guardian , , , , and , for the Times , , , and and for the BBC , and . Conversely, none of the sources in the article use the term "anti-transgender activist" in reference to Linehan. AutumnKing (talk) 09:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Then why is it capialised now? And would you care to outline where in this section does it describe Linehan criticising activism by or on behalf of transgender people? Bastun 11:17, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, I would oppose the need for it to be capitalised, and as demonstrated above, both the options I would support are not capitalised. Sources show it is a common term, uncapitalised, and that is how it should be used in the section header. With regard to your second question, I prefer the term suggested by Equivamp, which would be "Opposition to transgender activism" as opposed to using criticism. This opposition is clearly demonstrated throughout the section. It is also accurate to the sources, for example: vocal about his opposition of the trans movement; regularly vocal critic of transgenderism; an outspoken commentator on transgender issues in recent years; the entire article at AutumnKing (talk) 11:44, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Those exact sources seem to give a very good reason why we shouldn't use any wording which restricts Linehan's apparent focus to transgender rights activism. The Telegraph says he is a "regularly vocal critic of transgenderism", not transgender rights activism but all of transgenderism as a whole. The Times says he is an outspoken commentator on "transgender issues." Again, not just activism, but more wider transgender issues (such as his opposition to certain forms of transgender health care).Wikiditm (talk) 11:56, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

The section encompasses a wide variety of issues, but it has to be labelled in a reasonably concise manner. As I have repeatedly stated, "Anti-transgender activism" violates WP:BLPSTYLE in that it is loaded, inaccurate and unsupported by sources. "Opposition to transgender activism" seems to the best fit for neutrality and accuracy. Linehan is clearly stating strong opposition to particular issues. In that context, may I ask how you would word the section header, ie "Opposition to .....". Alternative options would be most useful. AutumnKing (talk) 12:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Anti-transgender activism is my preferred wording here. It is not loaded, and is certainly not inaccurate. In terms of accuracy I think it is a clear winner over alternatives, as "activism" accurately encompasses the range of Linehan's statements and actions in the underlying material, and "anti-transgender" accurately encompasses the broad philosophical basis on which his actions lie. "Opposition to transgender activism" is also neutral, but does not accurately describe the content of the section - most importantly it does not accurately cover his opposition to the Tavistock clinic, or his harassment of Stephanie Hayden. It also feels obvious that if Mermaids were not engaging in activism, he would still be opposed to their medical counseling and educational output (indeed these seem to be his largest issues with the charity). I don't have a wording which is superior to anti-transgender activism. If forced to start the heading with "opposition to..." it would probably need to be "Opposition to a wide range of transgender causes , activities and individuals" which I think is far better summarised as "Anti-transgender activism."Wikiditm (talk) 18:06, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Have now removed the capitalisation from the article, as it is unnecessary, unsupported and not a substantive part of the Talk page discussion. AutumnKing (talk) 11:48, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

In relation to this, it seems that the term "transgender rights activist" or "trans rights activist", as shortened to TRA, is used as a pejorative and possibly a dog-whistle. Although it is a natural turn of phrase to use, as seen in AutumnKing's links above, and also for example in Category:Transgender_rights_activists, we should be very careful about using this term, and should definitely aim for alternatives, especially when the topic is already contentious.Wikiditm (talk) 11:51, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

There is no suggestion to use the acronym TRA, which I agree is often used as a pejorative. However, the fact that a term can/has been used as a slur, does not exclude its use in appropriate context, nor does it insinuate that is is being used negatively (see use of TERF). Additionally, the term is used directly by the sources cited to describe who Lineham is opposed to whereas the term "anti-transgender activist" is not used in the sources, in reference to Linehan. AutumnKing (talk) 12:02, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Acknowledged, but, to be clear, when I posed the question above, Lilipo25 had changed the section heading in the article to "Criticism of Transgender Rights Activism", capitalised. Hence my question. Bastun 23:54, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Yup, my bad on that one. I temporarily forgot that we don't capitalise all the words in section headings on Misplaced Pages. It wasn't intended to reflect on the phrase itself. Lilipo25 (talk) 06:38, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

anti-transgender activism is probably the most wiki-appropriate description of his behaviour --Licks-rocks (talk) 13:44, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Objections have been raised on the basis that the description is imprecise, loaded, and that it not supported by any sources. It would be useful if you could expand as to your reasoning for considering it the most wiki-appropriate, as at present I can see no grounds on which it meets standards for a WP:BLP. AutumnKing (talk) 13:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I know that you have raised objections on these grounds. many of the points I would make have already been made elsewhere. He's pretty open about his position, and has rallied against trans rights and anything that would have apositive impact on trans people on more occasions than I can count. --Licks-rocks (talk) 11:05, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

• Anti-transgender activism seems pretty clear cut imo, does anyone know what Graham Linehan describes his position as? Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:39, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Linehan has described himself as a "self-identification sceptic."Wikiditm (talk) 18:43, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

According to his Daily Mail piece, Graham describes himself as against "authoritarian trans rights activists", whatever that means. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:44, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - while recognising that this section contains questions as well as statements, some contributors are contributing a lot - I'm seeing one person on almost twice as many contributions as the next most frequent contributor (who happens to be the person who called the RfC). WP:BLUDGEON is a thing. (This contribution moves me onto joint 3rd, but one of mine has been a question and one has been this comment). Bastun 18:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Clearly this is a reference to myself, and is in fact the second time this month you have seen fit to pass judgement on the way in which I chose to edit on Misplaced Pages. I am attempting to generate discussion and alternatives, in order to achieve a consensus that satisfies WP:BLP, not to dominate the discussion. This isn't about who says the most, who is right or who is wrong, but about coming to a reasonable consensus that best satisfies Misplaced Pages's standards. AutumnKing (talk) 18:19, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

+1. -sche (talk) 19:48, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I'm seeing an excess of policing other user's contributions from one side of this debate. As long as people are contributing constructively and using Misplaced Pages's own guidelines to respond to specific points raised, which they are, it seems unnecessary to make accusations of WP:BLUDGEON or to ignore stated reasons for a position and make accusations of WP:NOTVOTE. Both sides must be free to contribute and respond to points raised in an RFC. Lilipo25 (talk) 20:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - One is "an excess" to you? Hyperbole, much? Ok, then... (Why are we not indenting any more?) Bastun 13:41, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment It should not have been difficult to tell from context that the reference was not, in fact, all about you. Perhaps we could stick to discussing the topic of the RFC? Lilipo25 (talk) 17:38, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

• Criticism of transgender activism seems a good heading to me as it's not in any way inflammatory and is a fair description. I would OPPOSE any inclusion of 'anti-trans' or 'transphobic'.NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:24, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
• Anti-trans activism is accurate. We don't go with "criticism of trans activism" for the same reason we don't go with "criticism of equal rights" for racists. Guy (help!) 17:37, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Newimpartial I am containing here to try and disentangle from the discussion above. Apologies from the get go for the length of this response in my attempt to be thorough . For me, fundamentally, this is about adhering to WP:BLP, with particular reference to WP:BLPSTYLE with these particular points in mind; Tone BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone, avoiding both understatement and overstatement. Articles should document in a non-partisan manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subjects and Balance Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral. As you yourself have stated, we need to follow the sources. I have therefore once again looked through the sources in the section, to see how Linehan is described.

• In the Telegraph ] Linehan is described as a regularly vocal critic of transgenderism.
• The Irish Times states that he has defended his views on transgender issues and that has tweeted extensively about transgender issues. While he has many supporters, his comments have opened him to online accusations of bigotry and transphobia. The only reference to him in the article as transphobic comes from a quote from a petition, not direct reporting.
• The Times state that he has become an outspoken commentator on transgender issues in recent years and that he tweets almost exclusively about transgender issues. He has many supporters, but has also been accused of expressing transphobic views..
• The Sunday Times does not label Linehan at all, and neither does
• The Guardian with the only reference to transphobia a quote from Stephanie Hayden.
• The inews piece says he has been vocal about his opposition of the trans movement and again, the only reference to transphobia is from the same quote from Hayden.
• The Extra piece talks of Linehan becoming what they (his critics) claim to be a vocal critic of transgenderism?, that he has tweeted extensively about transgender issues. While he has many supporters, his comments have opened him to online accusations of bigotry and transphobia. and that Despite being labelled ‘transphobic’, Linehan defends that his concerns have stemmed discussions with transgender and lesbian friends. This last one is particularly important. The fact is that some people have labelled him transphobic. However, the reporting of such does not do the same.
• Talk radio describes him as someone who has become a vocal critic of transgender issues on Twitter,.
• Newsweek does not label Linehan.
• Beyond the joke says his comments about gender issues that have caused controversy..
• The Newsnight text reads as his vociferous arguing online and that critics have accused him of being a transphobe.
• The Metro reference that he is involved in a public row with some members of the transgender community..
• The Independent again does not label Linehan or his actions.

Two of the sources do label Linehan transphobic;

• Attitude stating the comedy writer is still on his transphobic rant.
• GCN stating Due to Linehan’s transphobic comments and actions.

However, as per WP:LABEL transphobic is a contentious, value-laden term, which are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject Two of twelve sources does not qualify as "widely used".

Of the extra sources Newimpartial has supplied, which are not used in the article;

• The GCN piece talks of his consistently critical campaign against trans issues and his adamant stance on gender identity. which wouldn’t qualify but does also state his anti-trans views which is the first reference to Linehan specifically being anti-trans.
• This second Attitude piece also refers to Linehan as transphobic.
• For some reason, I can not access the Gay Star News article, so I will have to discount that unfortunately.
• The Vox piece, mentions Linehan in passing and talks of his Twitter obsession with trans people and trans issues.
• The Huffington Post piece is a blog/opinion piece, so not really suitable for use as a reliable source in a WP:BLP, per WP:NEWSORG but does describe Linehan as having voraciously taken up the ‘cause’ of anti-trans activists.

So even if we were to consider these extra sources, we have two which call him anti-trans, and three which call him transphobic out of sixteen sources in total. If we are to count these together, which would be an acknowledgement that anti-trans is synonymous with transphobic, that does not realistically qualify as "widely used", per WP:LABEL. Additionally, those sources which do not label him as such are those which could be considered to be presenting the most neutral viewpoint and draw from a wide spectrum of media, from the BBC, to The Times, to The Guardian, to Metro.

Anti-transgender is synonymous with transphobic in the same way that anti-gay is with homophobic or anti-black is with racist. In order to ascribe those titles, we need to have sources to back it up. We do not. The section title needs to be neutral, which is why "Opposition to transgender issues" would work, or "Views on transgender issues" or "Opinions on transgender issues" or even "Views on transgenderism". Again, apologies for the length of reply, I was attempting to lay it out in as clear a manner as possible. AutumnKing (talk) 19:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the work that evidently was. For the convenience of those reading, I will give the opening and relevant passage from gay star news, Transphobic writer and comedian Graham Linehan made headlines last month for trying to get funding for trans charity Mermaids canceled.... Linehan instructed his anti-trans supporters to email the Big Lottery Fund’s CEO, Dawn Austwick. From context (and common sense), it is clear that "his anti-trans supporters" are "those who support him in his anti-trans stance", not "those of his supporters who happen to be anti-trans". So actually we have three sources for "transphobic" and four for "anti-trans" in full editorial voice, out of seventeen.

As far as "transphobic" is concerned (and this is not narrowly the topic of the RfC), I have not promoted its use in wikivoice in cases like this since it was decided to fall under LABEL. However, I do think "widely regarded as transphobic" would work, since it is (a) clearly true, (b) not contested by really anyone but the subject, and (c) supported by the three publications noted, plus Pinknews, plus the Irish Times ("accusations of bigotry and transphobia"), plus the Times ("has been accused of transphobia") plus Extra ("despite being labelled transphobic "), plus Newsnight ("accused by his critics of being a francophone"), with the Guardian and inews citing Stephanie Hayden on his Transphobia. That is ten on 17 sources noting that he is called/labelled/accused of being transphobic (in a sample that wasn't selected to make this point), which I think is ample to justify "widely regarded".

Finally, as far as "anti-trans" goes, I would draw attention first to the Telegraph. Its phrase, "vocal critic of transgenderism", seems to me to be perfectly evocative of what "anti-transgender" means to our readers, and this is not a source that is trying to curry favours among "transgenderists". The phrase "opposition to the trans movement" (inews) and "vocal critic of transgender issues" (news radio) also strike me as saying essentially the same thing as the four sources using "anti-trans". I dispute that these are all circumlocutions for "transphobic", as you state above, but they all mean something that is clearly not captured in the whitewashed "views on" phrases suggested above. There is something (or several things) about transgender people, transgender identities, and transgender activism that Linehan feels compelled to publically oppose. If this were another group, and a celebrity were opposing, say, black people, and black activism, I dare say we would not be nitpicking hit counts in the use of the label "anti-black" or "racist", WP:LABEL (which I still don't see as applying to "anti-transgender") or no. Newimpartial (talk) 20:32, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

With regards the parallels with "anti-gay", this wording is actually used on wikipedia precisely to avoid issues of LABEL, for example this section on anti-homosexual attitudes achieves neutrality without compromising on accuracy. This also includes a quotation from a relevant group to the subsection stating that they oppose a "homosexual activist movement." I think the parallels are clear with our dilemma here.Wikiditm (talk) 20:47, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

We can't use sources which say "accused of transphobia", specifically not putting it in their editorial voice, to support "widely regarded as transphobic". They themselves don't endorse the label, and never say it is "widely" used, or how often it is used. To derive "widely regarded" from those is WP:Original research. Crossroads 22:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I would be fine with 'widely accused of transphobia'; after the first, say, dozen public accusations and used of the label, the distinction between 'has been accused by his many critics' and 'has been widely accused' is without a difference. There is OR and there is common sense, and it is pedantic (and against policy) to insist that the Times or the Guardian use the word 'widely' before we do, particularly since no sources at all argue that he is not widely accused of transphobia. Outside of the British Isles, I dare say it's the main thing he's known for. (When a news outlet says that someone is accused of holding a position, and that they are regarded as holding a position, that is a difference of editorial spin and emphasis; they amount to exactly the same underlying factual claim. To argue otherwise is sheerest nit-picking). Newimpartial (talk) 22:42, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

WP:NEWSORG, of course, does not say opinion pieces cannot be used. What it actually says is "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." ~ so we can certainly refer to the HuffPost and/or it's author - "Emrys Travis, Disabled Students' Officer at Cambridge University Students' Uni, describes Linehan as having...", etc. Bastun 22:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Aaaanyway - isn't a large chunk of the above just distraction? This RfC is about the section heading which for ages had been "Anti-transgender activism" and is now "Criticism of transgender rights activism." Aside from the fact that there is still no "criticism of transgender rights activism" attributed to Linehan in the article, nobody is actually looking for the section title to be changed to "transphobic activism", "Linehan's transphobia", or anything else involving the word "transphobia." Continued discussion of the word in the context of an RfC on the section heading is needless distraction, even deflection. Bastun 09:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Newimpartial, it is inappropriate for you to simply declare that this "RFC is headed for nonconsensus" and so you are putting the version you are advocating into the article. I ask that you please revert your edit. This RFC is still ongoing, and declaring that your version is the one that gets used because you think this will end in nonconsensus is not how this works. Lilipo25 (talk) 10:54, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

One of the best practices in "how this works" is WP:BRD, which I have followed in this instance. I am simply following due process, rather than engaging in a SUPERVOTE. This edit of yours was a SUPERVOTE, was not "how this works", and did not follow BRD, but unlike some edit warriors I took my time before restoring the stable version. Newimpartial (talk) 13:23, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

As you know, that edit of mine was not a SUPERVOTE but merely restoring the version of the heading which was in place when this RFC was begun, after Wikiditm changed it without consensus being reached. Lilipo25 (talk) 15:30, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

This is yet another false accusation, and really disappointing to see when I have tried my best to ensure a constructive conversation. I have not changed the heading without consensus, and you know this.Wikiditm (talk) 16:48, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

You are correct. It was Bastun who changed it without consensus being reached, not you, and I have confused the two of you. I have struck through where I stated it was you. My apologies. Lilipo25 (talk) 18:01, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Bastun restored the stable version, which was the policy compliant course then and now. But I'm sure they both appreciate your apology. ;) Newimpartial (talk) 18:38, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Newimpartial, I have asked you repeatedly to stop WP:BAITING. You know full well I did not apologise to Bastun and you are again trying to provoke an angry response. Please stop. Bastun did not restore a "stable" version, because as I demonstrated to you below, "Anti-transgender activism" has never been "stable". It has been changed over and over since it was first put in and Bastun has merely reverted it each time. That is not stable. Again, I ask that you stop BAITING. Thank you. Lilipo25 (talk) 21:24, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

I reverted. As I stated, regarding it being headed for "no consensus", I think so too, but see WP:NOCONSENSUS: "for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it." The "contentious matter", in this case, was the label "anti-transgender". WP:BLP matters do not favor the WP:STATUSQUO, as STATUSQUO states: During a dispute discussion, until a consensus is established, you should not revert away from the status quo (except in cases where contentious material should be immediately removed, such as biographies of living people. See also WP:BLPREMOVE: Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that: 1. is unsourced or poorly sourced; 2. is an original interpretation or analysis of a source, or a synthesis of sources (see No original research)... Crossroads 15:18, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Lilipo is mistaken on this point. From January 25, 2019 until Crossroads made the controversial change on June 20, 2020, the heading for this section was either "opposition to transgender rights", "anti-transgender activity" or "anti-transgender activism" (it had been changed from "transphobia"). The stable, prior consensus version is clearly "anti-transgender activism".

As far as Crosstoads's BLP argument goes (which in truth amounts to a CRYBLP), whitewashing a BLP, or undue deference to the views of its subject, is also a BLP violation. That Linehan is active against transgender individuals and transgender rights is in fact not "unsourced or poorly sourced" - it has been demonstrated at this RfC with a remarkable list of sources, some of very high quality, and there is certainly nothing original about the interpretation of his activity on Twitter depicted in this article.

No heading that has remained with so little change for almost 18 months should be blanked as "controversial", especially given the eyes on this article. And the argument, made elsewhere on this page, that "anti-transgender" is an emotionally laden term somehow different from anti-gay or anti-spam, and is uniquely unsuited to WP, is entirely spurious not yet provided with any evidence or logic from its supporters, besides THEYDONTLIKEIT. Transgender is an adjective, like gay or black, and if there is to be some difference in how we treat these identities there should at least be an argument put forward. So BRD, please? Newimpartial (talk) 16:37, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

No, NewImpartial is mistaken here. First, the stable subject heading before it was changed to "Anti-transgender activism' in January 2019 was Transgender issues. It was briefly changed to Transphobia by an IP account in January 2019: this was up for less than two hours before being changed to Transgender rights by Onetwothreelp on January 25, 2019 . "Transphobia" was never an accepted or stable version of the heading on this article. The heading hasn't been stable since.

While it would take me at least a full day, even if I had nothing else to do, to go through the entire edit history of the last 18 months and provide every diff for the many, many times this subject heading has been changed over the last 18 months, there have definitely been numerous times when editors changed it because they found "Anti-transgender activism" to be biased. It was always changed back, usually by Bastun. But it has not been a "stable" version at all, and to say that it has been "anti-transgender activism" or something similar for the past 18 months is not true..

I can give a few of the times when this happened here. Although this is not a complete list, I think it amply demonstrates that the heading "Anti-transgender activism" has never been stable and has been regularly opposed by editors: April 2020 changed to Transgender controversy by me, reverted by NewImpartial:  ; October 2019 changed to Gender critical activism by an IP, reverted by Bastun  ; September, 2019, changed to Pro-Feminist Activism by a different IP, reverted by Bastun  ; August 2019, changed to Pro-feminist ally activism by PlantedKiss, reverted by Bastun  ; August 2019, changed to Activism by Forty 4, reverted by Bastun  ; June 2019, changed to Gender critical activism by Squigglet88, reverted by Galobtter  ; April 2019, changed to Transgender Issues by Onetwothreelp, reverted by Bastun  ; April 2019, Bring Back Daz Sampson removed the section altogether and summarized and integrated the information into an existing section, reverted by Bastun . Lilipo25 (talk) 19:03, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

As I demonstrated above, there has in fact been much change in the heading over the last 18 months. It has been in dispute the entire time that Bastun and a few others have insisted on removing any other heading put in over and over. So it is certainly not, as Wikiditm says below, "well beyond dispute that the status quo here is 'anti-transgender activism'". Lilipo25 (talk) 19:32, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

When we're looking at a period of 18 months, things like "an anonymous IP account changed it to this for 2 hours" doesn't strike me as a very good argument for anything. Apparently trying to disprove the status quo with this seems absurd to me.Wikiditm (talk) 21:49, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps you misunderstood, Wikiditm. That was not an attempt to disprove the status quo. Newimpartial said above that the previous heading on the section before "Anti-transgender activism" was "Transphobia". I was showing that this was incorrect: it only read "Transphobia" for less than two hours after an anonymous IP account changed it to that and was quickly reverted. The actual previous heading was "Transgender issues" So you see, my pointing out that it was an anonymous IP account and it was only that way for two hours was a very good argument to make that point. I hope that is clear now. Lilipo25 (talk) 22:00, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes I see. I don't think it's correct to say that "Transphobia" was the status quo prior to "Anti-transgender activism."Wikiditm (talk) 22:03, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

As above, it is well beyond dispute that the status quo here is the heading "anti-transgender activism." The aim of this RfC is to get a full idea of what people favour in terms of a heading and why. On that, "anti-transgender activism" is no more or less contentious than "opposition to transgender rights activism", and neither of these should be defaulted to on the grounds that the other is contentious. In this instance, the "removal of contentious material" would mean having a blank heading, which is obviously ridiculous. We are going to need a heading, and it would be great if we could present reasons for preferring one heading over another rather than try to force something through against the general views of the wider editorial community.Wikiditm (talk) 16:59, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

This is my understanding/view as well. -sche (talk) 22:38, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Agree entirely with Newimpartial's statement above. Absolutely no BLP issue exists with the section heading "Anti-transgender activism". Bastun 17:13, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

"Anti-transgender activism" has indeed been the stable version for pretty much 18 months, and yes, I restored to that stable version, including on occasions when a drive-by IP decided to randomly change it. Please refrain from breaking up other people's comments to insert your own answers, Lilipo. It's rude, unhelpful, and against talk page guidelines. Bastun 22:53, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Most were not IP accounts. A number - me, Bring Back Daz Sampson, Onetwothreeip, etc. - were also not 'drive-by' editors but people actively engaged in editing the article and discussions about it. Lilipo25 (talk) 22:58, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

• Opposition to transgender rights activism or Criticism of transgender rights activism. (from Feedback request service) Seems neutral enough and does not violate WP:LABEL. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  13:55, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

  Spy-cicle, so we describe David Duke as being opposed to racial equality activism? Guy (help!) 14:57, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

  That is false equivalence. Someone like David Duke has been widely described as a white supremacist/racist in RSs. Whereas, someone like Linehan has not been widely described as transphobic in RSs as noted by the sources provided by AutumnKing above. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  15:58, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

  These comments haven't been especially relevant to the debate. This is not a debate over the neutrality of "opposition to transgender rights activism" or "criticism of transgender rights activism", nor whether either of these violate WP:LABEL. It is also not being debated whether Linehan should be described as transphobic, or whether he has been described as such in reliable sources. I attempted to summarise the overall thrust of the discussion here, which would be productive reading.Wikiditm (talk) 16:59, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

That might be a cogent, policy-based argument if the section to which the heading applies contained all, or mostly, instances of "opposition to transgender rights activism". Per the discussion above and below, it is more expansive than that, which is why "Anti-transgender activism" is a more accurate heading. Newimpartial (talk) 14:24, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Newimpartial, you don't get a police warning for being opposed to activism, after all. Guy (help!) 15:01, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Oppose anything which says "anti-trans", "anti-transgender", or "transphobic". These are obviously value-laden labels, thus falling under WP:LABEL, which states that these "are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." (Emphasis added.) In-text attribution must be used in such cases. Note that these terms also have zero sources supporting them, which makes them WP:Original research as well. Likewise, there are zero sources calling him an activist. Support "Criticism of transgender activism", "Criticism of transgender rights activism", or "Views on transgender issues". Most of the section is in fact about his criticism of transgender activism. Gender self-identification, medical transition of children, Mermaids, the Tavistock Centre's use of puberty blockers, and the comments Rowling received all concern transgender activism, and this makes up most of the section. All of above copy-pasted from User:Crossroads, whose arguments I almost entirely endorse. The most neutral is "Views on transgender issues", which is similar to equivalent " "Views on ..... " sections in other BLP's. Since his views are substantially criticisms of particular aspects of trans-activism (like underage treatment), some variant of the 'stronger' "Criticism of ..." is justified IMO. Neither sources, nor common sense justify "anti-trans", "anti-transgender", or "transphobic" except as PoVs held by (largely) activist orgs or individual activists. He has views which are conservative (in the non-political sense) and which have sparked controversy - but comparing him to David Duke is almost as silly as his own "Nazi experiments" analogy. The guy might be wrong - I'm personally unsure - but the feverish determination here, and online to label anybody expressing doubts on these issues as some kind of closet trans-basher, simply eliminates the possibility of dialogue. Pincrete (talk) 11:29, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I really wish people wouldn't !vote in these RfC's without reading the discussion. There is no consensus, or even evidential support that "anti-transgender" is "obviously value-added" in a sense in which "anti-black" or "anti-semitic" are not: in fact, not a shred of support has been put forward for this. There are also not "zero sources" supporting the terms: we have seen about a dozen sources put forward in this discussion that support one or another such label. Please don't write (or repeat) things that aren't actually true. And it makes it 'worse to copy-paste from an editor's !vote whose errors of fact have already been corrected in the ensuing discussion. I have seldom seen a starker instance of IDONTHEARTHAT on Misplaced Pages.

Pincrete's final reference to Linehan, as if it were inappropriate to label someone as anti-transgender who was deplatformed from Twitter for their anti-transgender comments strikes me as an incredible ostrich move, in the kindest possible construal. Newimpartial (talk) 13:29, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

All of Newimpartial's claims have been rebutted both above and below by others. If Pincrete rejects those arguments as unconvincing, that's not WP:IDHT. Crossroads 14:32, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

So apparently we're at the "nuh-uh, you are!" part of the debate. sigh Can we get an admin to finally close this RFC? — The Hand That Feeds You: 14:46, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Crossroads, are you intending to use hyperbole, or did you forget about the many sources using these terms presented, e.g., here and here, perhaps in a fit of absence of mind? There are also not "zero sources" supporting the terms has not been rebutted and in fact is an easily demonstrated statement.

Also, if any evidence has been presented that "anti-transgender" is "obviously value-added" in a sense in which "anti-black" or "anti-semitic" are not, I must have missed it. Care to share diffs?

On Misplaced Pages, Crossroads, we are expected to share publicly available evidence about shared, consensus reality; we are not expected to retreat into a sort of Nietzschean relativism where we can make unsubstantiated statements, call them BLUESKY if questioned, and assert that claims have been rebutted because that's what we feel ought to have happened. We are supposed to provide, you know, evidence in the form of diffs and sources, of which by a quick count you have provided zero in this discussion. Newimpartial (talk) 15:10, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I think this should run for the full 30 days, and hopefully existing participants like myself can refrain from clogging it up with circular debating. As for "zero sources", okay, that part of my old comment which Pincrete quoted is out of date, but arguments around WP:Due were put forward. No need for us to argue that again, and same goes for whether or not "anti-transgender" is value-laden. Crossroads 15:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I read the whole discussion over several days, including many of the linked sources but disagreed with the arguments put forward by others. I even realised that Crossroads had slightly changed his position. If editors REALLY object to 'weasel-ly' language, the wholly neutral "Views on ..." option is still available. They don't IMO, they simply want to label his views as "closet-trans-hating", which the majority of sources don't, they record his views as controversial and sometimes clumsily phrased, but not overtly trans-phobic.

Anyone who thinks a Twitter ban, (or non-ban) proves anything at all except Twitter make commercial decisions - well I really don't know what to say to them. Why have debate, discussion, disagreement etc either on WP or in society, when we could simply count 'retweets' and Facebook 'likes'. Kangaroo court springs to mind for some reason as being the standard to which some aspire.Pincrete (talk) 16:31, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Pincrete, if you read the discussion, then you really should not be copy-pasting false statements that after corrected in the ensuing discussion. And this closet trans-hating business is coming from you: nobody is saying that either about the article's subject or for what should be in the article. "Anti-transgender" simply does not mean "closet trans-hating" any more than "anti-fascist" means (closet) fascist-hating. The former are descriptive labels, and the onus on those who find them emotive is to provide a non-BLUESKY argument why they should be understood that way.

As far as Twitter is concerned, nobody has suggested that the Twitter ban proves anything. But your position, The guy might be wrong - I'm personally unsure - but the feverish determination here, and online to label anybody expressing doubts on these issues as some kind of closet trans-basher, simply eliminates the possibility of dialogue would seem more relevant to me if we were not talking about someone who had been recently deplatformed - as you say, as a business decision - because Twitter was no longer prepared to stand by and see its brand eroded by disseminating Linehan's statements against transgender individuals, repeated statements that have widely been condemned as transphobic. Newimpartial (talk) 16:44, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

If you, or other editors did not wish to imply that the Twitter ban 'proved' something - you would not be mentioning it, `repeating it and then defending it. I take either a ban or a non-ban as seriously as I would a phone-in Daily Mail, Vox-pop survey.Pincrete (talk) 17:06, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

What corporations do with their brands is evidence for how these brands - including personal brands - are perceived. "Anti-transgender activism" might be a misleading heading if activism against transgender individuals and causes were not part of Linehan's personal brand at this point, but "all sides" now agree that it is. They simply differ on whether his activism is positive or negative in its overall effects. Newimpartial (talk) 17:12, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

The guy is sometimes blunt, he admits that himself. The non-partisan sources AFAI can see do not interpret that as being "anti-transgender" in intent, especially if that term is simply a slightly euphemistic way of saying "trans-phobic". That there are certain aspects of pro-trans activism about which he is highly sceptical or critical is fairly indisputable. You need to be "reading his mind" to turn that into "anti-transgender activism" IMO. Pincrete (talk) 18:47, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Comment "Anti-transgender activism" is very ambiguous, does it mean that he is opposed to aspects of "transgender activism" - which is probably true. Or does it mean that he is engaged in activism against trans people, which is distinctly loaded IMO and not endorsed by sources without substantial SYNTH? Pincrete (talk) 16:51, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Anti-transgender activism per JzG. It's definitely a value-laden term (compare "anti-black activism" or "anti-woman activism") but Misplaced Pages has never had a policy of shying away from describing someone in value-laden terms provided RSes support it, which they do. The existence of sources that do not describe him as transphobic does not negate the sources that do describe him as such. There are plenty of sources about the sky that don't explicitly describe it as blue, but those sources don't negate the ones that do describe the sky as blue. Loki (talk) 07:15, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break (RFC)

So, aside from drive-by anon IPs changing a section heading, Lilipo25 has pointed out above the times that the neutral and accurate heading "Anti-transgender activism" has been restored by editors. Lilipo25 is clearly implying that these were or are some kind of problematic reverts, or wouldn't otherwise be bringing them up. So Let's look at them:

• "Removal of defaming and misleading information regarding Graham Linehan at the request of Mr Linehan" is the edit summary of one of the five edits ever made by PlantedKiss, all of which were to this article. So, a CoI issue involving a single-purpose account;
• Editor Forty.4 changed the section title to "Activism" with an edit summary of "From the POV of Linehan and his supporters his activism is not anti-trans. We don't have sections on pro-life activism titled 'anti-choice activism', because it's POV)". I reverted, saying "we actually have many "anti-abortion" headings and articles. Restoring consensus version" and user did not engage on Talk page.
• Editor Squiggle88 changed the title to "Gender critical activism". Galobtter reverts, with an edit summary of "Gender critical is an euphemism." Squiggle88 does not engage on the talk page, and their edit is their one and only contribution to WP, ever.
• Editor Onetwothreeip changed the section heading to "Transgender issues" and made many other changes. I reverted the change of section heading (only). Onetwothreeip has previously contributed on this talk page and may well contribute here. They did not revert my change or discuss it on talk at that time.
• Editor Bring back Daz Sampson removed the section and its references entirely, replacing it with it a single sentence that, shall we say, presents a particular viewpoint. There was no consensus for that change. I understand that editor is not at liberty to contribute here, so I have not pinged them, but I honestly don't believe anyone is suggesting now that the topic should not be covered within its own section.

So - no problematic reverts. Or is anyone disputing that? Anyone got any evidence or content to add supporting "Criticism of gender activism" since the last time I asked? Yes? No? Bastun 23:36, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

1. I brought up the examples of some of the editors who changed the subject heading because Newimpartial incorrectly stated that the subject heading has been "stable" and had stayed the same for 18 months.

2. I stated that they were not all "drive-by IP accounts" because you incorrectly stated that they were.

Kindly do not assign motives to my comments correcting misinformation that I have not stated. That's against AGF. Thanks. Lilipo25 (talk) 23:59, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Lilipo, while we are on the topic of misinformation, I was not the one who said the section had stayed the same for 18 months. That was Bastun. I would like to be able to expect a higher degree of accuracy in your future contributions, given the standard you expect of others.

I was the one who said the heading was "stable" until last weekend's proposed change, because it was stable for many months. Drive-by editors making changes and not participating in BRD Talk page discussions do not affect the stability of the version at all. Newimpartial (talk) 01:21, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Newimpartial, it was accurate. I was referring to this quote from you: From January 25, 2019 until Crossroads made the controversial change on June 20, 2020, the heading for this section was either "opposition to transgender rights", "anti-transgender activity" or "anti-transgender activism" (it had been changed from "transphobia"). The stable, prior consensus version is clearly "anti-transgender activism".

I have already responded to your incorrect statement that all of the editors who changed the subject heading during that time were "drive-by editors not participating in BRD" by showing that they were not, so I won't reply to that again.

While the level of condescension in this comment ("I would like to be able expect a higher degree of accuracy in your future contributions") isn't quite as egregious as many of your other comments to me throughout this RFC ("Hyperbole does not become you, Lillipo" ; "Let me break this down for you, Lillipo" ; the deliberate baiting/taunting of telling me you just know Bastun appreciates my "apology" to him when I hadn't apologised bc I had not said anything wrong, etc.), it's still condescending, so I will ask yet again that you please stop. Thank you. Lilipo25 (talk) 02:16, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Lilipo, I promise to use a more encouraging tone with you when you stop mis-stating facts. In the passage from me that you just quoted, I said that the stable version was "anti-transgender activism", and I said that for the previous period back to January, 2020, the heading had been formulated in three ways, two with "anti-transgender" and one with "opposition to". These are two distinct statements, and both are factually correct. I did not say what you said here, that the heading "had been the same for 18 months", which would have been a factually incorrect statement. I try not to make factually incorrect statements, and when I (inadvertently) do, I acknowledge and apologize for them. I leave the conclusion to be drawn from this as an exercise to the reader. Newimpartial (talk) 02:30, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Newimpartial, I'm so glad to hear that you 'acknowledge and apologize for' your factually incorrect statements. In that case, I do accept your heartfelt apology for incorrectly stating, yet again, that the heading had only been formulated those three ways "From January 25, 2019 until Crossroads made the controversial change on June 20, 2020", even though I've already shown you diffs in which it was also formulated a number of other ways during those 18 months, including Pro-feminist activism. Pro-feminist ally activism, Gender critical activism and just plain old Activism. Don't feel too badly about it. As you said, it's been a valuable exercise for you and I'm sure you've learned something that will serve you in good stead the next time you make a factually incorrect statement while claiming that you try not to make incorrect statements. (Btw, it's so kind of you to promise to be 'encouraging' toward me, as I'm sure you know just exactly how much your opinion means to me). Lilipo25 (talk) 04:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Snarkasm doesn't really become you, Lilipo. If you can't tell the difference between long-running stable versions of article headings and the alternatives briefly proposed by drive-by editors, well, WP:CIR.

Oh, and adroitly moved goalposts on your previous erroneous statements. Nicely executed; almost Trumpian.

Newimpartial (talk) 05:45, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

So - no problematic reverts. Or is anyone disputing that? Anyone got any evidence or content to add supporting "Criticism of gender activism" since the last time I asked? Yes? No? Bastun 08:38, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

The RFC is ongoing and reading it it doesn't seem right that the exact content was changed from how it was at the beginning of the RFC to how it is now. Lots of editors have not expressed support for the current title. It shouldn't have been changed.NEDOCHAN (talk) 08:50, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

You can say that, but at the time the RfC was started the heading had been BOLDly changed; per BRD, it should have been left in the stable version as the discussion proceeded. After a flurry of reverting just as the discssion opened, it spent a few days in the BOLD version until I sensed that the stable version ought to remain in place until the close - which seems to have stuck. It seems clear that there will not be consensus in favor of the BOLD change proposal, so whatever the new heading might eventually be, I doubt that will be it, particularly from the perspective of policy compliance. Newimpartial (talk) 18:41, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

There has been a number of discussions peripheral to the RfC, so I thought it would be worth restating where the core of the debate is at and people can hopefully discuss these core issues a bit more. At the start of the RfC, there had been a number of alternative headings proposed, and so I and others addressed them all separately. Since then, there seems to have formed a main alternative of "Opposition to transgender rights activism," suggested by Equivamp above. As there is total overlap between this alternative and all other alternatives, both in terms of the arguments being put forward and the editors supporting them, I think it makes sense to view this as the alternative wording. The main argument against the wording "anti-transgender activism" remains that it is not neutral. As I mentioned at the start, this combines the views that it is biased in support of Linehan, and that it is biased against him. While most editors do not apparently see this lack of neutrality, there doesn't seem to be any consensus on this issue. Initially there was complaint about the word "activism" not being neutral, but the current complaint seems focused on the term "anti-transgender." It would be great if those supporting this argument could provide more details as to why exactly they think this heading is not neutral, especially in relation to other content on wikipedia and elsewhere which uses wordings such as "anti-capitalist" or "anti-gay" in a neutral context. On the other side, the main argument against "opposition to transgender rights activism" is that it is inaccurate or otherwise a poor fit. I've not seen any real attempt to dispute this. It seems accepted that this heading is indeed a poor fit for certain parts of the content, such as Linehan's opposition to Tavistock. However, it is viewed that this is a less significant problem than the neutrality issue with "anti-transgender activism." As Crossroads wrote early on "any claimed weaknesses in the alternative phrasings in no way allow us to default to the pre-existing wording." As such, I think what this comes down to is whether or not we think there is a neutrality issue with the "anti-transgender activism" heading, and if so whether we think this is more or less important than stated issues with "opposition to transgender rights activism."Wikiditm (talk) 11:45, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

My problem with "opposition to transgender rights activism" is that it is inaccurate. Mermaids UK are not "activists"; trans women going to the loo in a shopping centre or pub are not "activists"; the Tavistock Centre are not "activists". So Linehan is certainly targeting more than just "activists", he is actively being an activist himself. "Anti-transgender activism" is therefore accurate and is, in itself, a neutral phrase. Bastun 14:45, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

The problem from my perspective is that 'anti-transgender' as an adjective standing alone is a loaded term and is like using 'anti-Semitic' or 'racist'. It's not a fact. It's a loaded adjective and shouldn't be used. 'Opposition' or another abstract noun should be used to be neutral. As an adjective 'anti-transgender' is undoubtedly accusatory and loaded. Add in the noun 'activism' and you are, grammatically speaking at least, describing him as conducting 'activism' that is 'anti-transgender'. Now you could make this much less loaded simply by removing the hyphen (and therefore the adjective) and say 'anti transgender activism' and thereby create a noun meaning 'opposition to transgender activism', or, in order to avoid people reading the first two words as an adjective, you could just have 'opposition to transgender activism'. As for Bastsun's point re who and who is not an activist, that is impossible to be sure of and is opinion. A lot of activism is centred on using loos.NEDOCHAN (talk) 16:43, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

NEDOCHAN, please read (as much as you can stomach of) the discussion above the break. Don't say '"anti-transgender" is undoubtedly accusatory and loaded' when the majority of participants above have explicitly doubted or disagreed that it is accusatory and loaded. And WP does not shy from using the term 'anti-Semitic' when it is clearly sourced and amply supported with evidence, as 'anti-transgender' is in this case. Also, could we stop with the canard that Lineman is against transgender 'activism' and 'activists', when his attempts to deny blockers to 17 year old Transmen or his campaign to de-fund Mermaids (charity), not to mention his starkly patronising attempt to keep trans women out of women's restrooms, are flatly directed against Trans people and not restricted to Trans activists. Newimpartial (talk) 16:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

It is clear that some people view "anti-transgender" as being loaded language but can it please be elucidated why this is believed? Loaded language must carry positive or negative connotations, and I don't see any in this term. It is very common practice to define political or personal philosophies in terms of "pro-" or "anti-" such as "anti-capitalist" or "pro-Trump." This practice is neutral by its very nature. Each individual can position themselves in support of some cause or in opposition to it, and others may think they are right or wrong for doing so. With regards transgender causes, Linehan positions himself in opposition, hence "anti-transgender." He might be right or wrong, but this is a neutral description of his position.Wikiditm (talk) 19:03, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

I have read the entire discussion and I'm still of the same editorial view that the term is loaded, and I can have a go at explaining why. Adjectives starting with 'anti' are indeed often used perfectly neutrally as Wikiditm says but they can also be used in a specific way: as a synonym for adjectives ending in 'phobic'. So 'anti-gay' and 'homophobic' are synonymous, as are 'anti-Islam' and 'Islamophobic' and 'Anti-Jewish' means antisemitic.

I don't think the above is anything like as clear-cut as Newimpartial writes above and I don't really go along with the activists vs people argument, as opposing the activists will naturally result in opposing that which their activities are attempting to bring about.NEDOCHAN (talk) 19:14, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry one more thing - Mermaids are described as activists quite often - for instance here in the EconomistNEDOCHAN (talk) 19:18, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

With regards the other examples given here, wikipedia has many examples of the "anti-" wordings, the understanding being that these are neutral and not synonymous with the respective "-phobic" wordings. Anti-Islam is seen on many pages including BLP: Brigitte Gabriel, Anne Marie Waters, Robert B. Spencer to allow us to discuss these individuals' positions and views without branding them Islamophobic. I mentioned cases further up where "anti-gay" has been used, but I'll post another key example of Anita Jane Bryant. Misplaced Pages cannot brand her homophobic (though the article does include a line that specific people consider her to be homophobic) and so uses "anti-gay" to describe her views neutrally. It has a section heading "anti-gay rights activism" which mirrors the "anti-transgender activism" heading on this page.Wikiditm (talk) 20:15, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Yet there seems to be quite a few people who feel it's not neutral. Could it be described as more neutral than 'opposition to transgender activism'?NEDOCHAN (talk) 20:24, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

'Opposition to transgender activism' is WEASEL, and cannot be said to be 'more neutral' than anything. Also, the Economist piece above attributes the term 'activist' to lobbyists on the other side; it does not use the term in its own editorial voice. Things are decidedly more clear-cut than NEDOCHAN suggests above, particularly since most of the time Linehan is setting himself against not 'activists', but regular Trans people and their service providers. Newimpartial (talk) 20:51, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Can you explain how it's WP:WEASEL? --Equivamp - talk 02:03, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, it may not be WEASEL exactly, but it is about the heading giving a false sense of 'specific and meaningful' designation when it is actually being 'vague or ambiguous', which I understood to be the key terms of WEASEL. From the heading 'Opposition to transgender activism', one would expect the section to contain at its core a series of conflicts where trans activists are active and Linehan opposes them. There is some of that, but the section equally contains a series of attacks by Linehan on trans resources and programmes, which are not connected to 'transgender activism' by our sources. So I recognize that the focus of WEASEL is on false or misleading generalization without attribution; what we have here is not precisely the same, but something that rhymes IMO. Anyway, it is against policy to do this as well. Newimpartial (talk) 02:26, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

• Anti-transgender activism; see JzG's comment above. Given how hard it is for a verified account to end up suspended from Twitter for ToU violations, that Linehan went so far as to be suspended for "hateful conduct towards transgender individuals" is telling. We don't pussy-foot around fellow Katie Hopkins; there's no reason to pussy-foot around Linehan pretending that his views are anything other than targeted hatred against trans people. Sceptre (talk) 22:29, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

  Sceptre, aye. And (full disclosure) Linehan has interviewed the woman who was the centre of the latest Rowling shit-show, and her husband, who was a former friend of mine until this TERF crap kicked off. Guy (help!) 23:52, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Wow! Suspended by Twitter! How can two intelligent editors (and I have had enough contact with both to believe that to be true) even take that seriously? Does it not occur that such decisions are made solely to preserve company image and thus are commercial decisions? They are not even quasi-judicial decisions.Pincrete (talk) 16:08, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Has anyone suggested that tribunals are needed to decide what is or isn't "anti-transgender activism"? I had naively thought that common sense might apply here. Newimpartial (talk) 16:12, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Tribunals not needed - simply WP:RS, which Twitter bans are not. "Anti-transgender activism", apart from being very ambiguous, is a statement about motive IMO - you interpret it solely as effect. As do some others here who try to imply that - for example - being very sceptical about the efficacy of particular equal rights proposals is synonymous with being racist/sexist. This is the crudest kind of mob-thinking IMO. Pincrete (talk) 18:27, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Hey, Pincrete; WP:NPA, please. I am not using a Twitter ban as a RS (how is that even possible?); I'm saying that when a number of sources say that a BLP subject is engaged in anti-transgender activism/an anti-transgender campaign/anti-transgenderism, then they probably are. Newimpartial (talk) 18:35, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Pincrete made no personal attack that I can see. They make an excellent point about "anti-transgender activism" being a statement about motive. Lilipo25 (talk) 19:27, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

For those keeping score at home, accusing others here of the crudest kind of mob thinking is, indeed, a personal attack, AFAICT. And the point Pincrete made about motives vs. outcomes is still unsourced OR. Newimpartial (talk) 19:51, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I didn't see Pincrete name anyone, nor do I think it is a personal attack to state that equating legitimate questioning of the efficacy of rights activism with being racist is crude mob-think. It's rather like accusing other editors of promoting a personal desire to see trans people violently murdered because they say biased language like "anti-transgender activist", which assumes a POV, doesn't belong in a Misplaced Pages article. Lilipo25 (talk) 22:20, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

You'll forgive me if I don't hold my breath... Bastun 22:28, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Sarcasm is listed under WP:UNCIVIL, Bastun. Kindly stop.Lilipo25 (talk) 00:56, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Newimpartial, you had to be explicitly told three times by two different admins just last week to stop repeatedly implying that I support violence against trans people and demanding I make a statement disavowing such violence, entirely on the basis that I hadn't said anything about violence against trans people at any point (people who find a potential characterization "vile" condemn the course of action that characterization involves). This was after stating in May that I find attempts to kill, rape and eliminate Jews a matter of deep moral outrage, while attempts to kill, rape and eliminate trans people are of no consequence. You followed the second incident up with a wildly out-of-context claim that a gay rights pioneer I wrote an article about publically applauded the police shooting of a black trans man and had to be given a warning from an admin. Lilipo25 (talk) 00:56, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

And any of that somehow communicated to you that I am accusing other editors of promoting a personal desire to see trans people violently murdered? Perhaps you could work in areas where reading comprehension is less critical. Also, if I tick off an admin by stating the obvious, then IMO I am doing my job as an editor striving in the face of acute POV. Newimpartial (talk) 01:06, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps you could work in areas where reading comprehension is less critical. - It does not appear to occur to you how supercillious, condescending, and frankly pathetic that remark makes you appear to be. You lose any right to criticise anyone else for making PAs in a single sentence.

I did not provide cites for some of my previous comments because I was clearly not trying to insert content in the article. This is a talk page and a degree of WP:OR is permitted and sometimes helpful, it admits the possibility of two human beings trying to understand each other's views in good faith, not "citing at" each other. But, I came here solely for the RfC, so So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish. Pincrete (talk) 12:57, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

If admins intervened in a dispute a week ago between two editors, then surely the issue is resolved. Why bring it up again here? Keep it to your respective talk pages, please - this RfC is not the place to resurrect it. Bastun 13:31, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support: "Opposition to Transgender Rights Activism" or "Opposition to transgender activism", or alternatively "Criticism of transgender rights activism" as he has stated he is not Anti-transgender. Oppose anything which says "anti-trans", "anti-transgender", or "transphobic" as they are not neutral. CatCafe (talk) 22:03, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support the headings "Criticism of transgender rights activism" or "Opposition to transgender activism" as they seem neutral. Oppose headings with "anti-trans", "anti-transgender" or "transphobic" as they do not. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 21:27, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

• Anti-transgender activism is fair and accurate. He doesn't simply criticize specific methods or perceived excesses of transgender rights activism, when he says things like "men aren't women" in response to a women's institute kindly wishing trans women a happy pride; or when he deliberately missgenders people, it becomes clear that he has a problem with the social acceptance of trans people. (this is as awful as questioning the "social acceptance" of ppl on terms of race) - Daveout(talk) 03:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Closing the RFC

As the RFC was started on June 22, and it is now August 8 with no reply since July 11, should this RFC be closed? --Equivamp - talk 22:57, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

And it is now August 27 with no new contributions. Yes, it should be closed. Could a non-involved admin do so? Is it in order to post on AN requesting someone to drop by? Bastun 10:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Encyclopaedic?

I am genuinely curious, can anyone sincerely claim this article comes across as an encyclopaedia entry about the writer Graham Linehan? It seems much more like a forum-thread style collection of grievances and a platform for people to make all sorts of value judgments about what they consider acceptable or unacceptable opinions. To approach a neutral informative article about the subject a good start would be to remove things like "YouTuber Hbomberguy held a 57-hour fundraising livestream that raised £270,000 more for Mermaids" (irrelevant), Linehan's "nomination" and "disqualification" by a comedian for a joke award as "Dick of the Year" (trivial) and the characterization of his views as "anti-transgender" (he has explicitly denied this). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.27.83.24 (talk) 23:36, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

You are, of course, correct. It is indeed nothing but a list of grievances by a particular faction and the changes you suggest would be proper editing and make it more encyclopaedic. Absolutely.

Good luck making that happen, though. Making the Linehan article read like an encyclopaedia article is supposed to read is the Gordian Knot of Misplaced Pages. It simply cannot be done under the Misplaced Pages editing system that is currently in place. Linehan is deeply hated by a group of editors who will revert any and all attempts to remove inappropriate material or headings. RFCs have failed. ANIs have been taken out. Bitter fights have been waged across multiple boards. Sanctions have been imposed.

But hey, if you want to take a crack at it, go for it. Lilipo25 (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

There has been a lot of discussion around this and there is now a very wide consensus in support of the section as it currently stands. Misplaced Pages has a transphobia problem but we're not allowed to mention it apparently. Awoma (talk) 13:10, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

You're not allowed to make personal attacks on talk pages. If you want to complain that other editors are acting in bad faith out with transphobic intent, do it at ANI with specific evidence. Please try to keep this a collegiate workspace. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:32, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Awoma There is not only not "a very wide consensus" for the section as it currently stands, there isn't even a tiny, breadth-of-a-human-hair consensus for it. The recent RFC had to be closed with no consensus after another long, contentious and ultimately fruitless battle. (For the sake of bare civility, I won't respond to the ugly insult or the go-around you put back in after Girth Summit redacted it). Lilipo25 (talk) 00:53, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

What is ANI? Awoma (talk) 13:33, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Awoma, WP:ANI. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:37, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Gottit. And how many times have you successfully fought an ANI against a transphobic editor? Awoma (talk) 13:39, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I can't answer that question, though a couple of them have been site banned in my memory. Certainly personal attacks are not officially tolerated on WP (though I have received my share). But I think it is within the TPG to point out that certain editors do not consider actions of this article's subject, which are perceived as hostile by LGTBQ+ communities as reliable sources indicate, to be ENCcyclopaedic, for some reason or other. Motives are an entirely separate question. Newimpartial (talk) 13:40, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

When you look at the number of "gender critical" edits on wikipedia, the motive is obvious. There's a reason that wikipedia has a reputation for transphobia, and forbidding people from talking about it is only going to make that reputation worse. Awoma (talk) 13:43, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Awoma your use of the word 'fought' is troubling. I'm not about to discuss my activities at ANI on an article talk page, it's completely off-topic. Keep this focused on the content, and don't throw labels at other editors - that's all I'm asking. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:44, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

LOL. That'll be zero then. Check yourself. Awoma (talk) 13:46, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

What does 'check yourself' mean? GirthSummit _(blether) 13:52, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Just so that we are clear, Awoma, "fighting" is not the officially intended activity on ANI (though fighting undoubtedly occurs, out of various motives). My own sense is that if editors regard ANI more as an administrative tribunal and less as a puppet court, things tend to go better than otherwise.

And to pick up a thread from elsewhere on the Talk page, I think it really can make a difference to have the two terms, "anti-trans" and "transphobic", while making one a synonym (or euphemism) for the other just confuses matters. "Transphobia", like "homophobia", carries with it assertions about motives which, while relevant when true, are just disruptive when thrown about without justification. "Anti-trans", like "anti-gay" or "anti-LGBT", is a more descriptive term that delineates actions and utterances opposing, or opposed my, trans and pro-trans communities in terms of rights, recognition, political demands or what have you.

So for WP purposes, a BLP subject can be anti-trans without being transphobic (or anti-gay without being homophobic), regardless of how unlikely this might seem based on the lived experience of some activists. And IMO moves to reduce one of these terms to the meaning of the other - from either direction - only serve to confuse the discussions among editors here. Newimpartial (talk) 14:11, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Also, I think the collapsed discussion on gender conversion therapy, at Talk:Graham Linehan#RfC on heading on Linehan's activities in relation to transgender causes and people, is worth looking at in this context. Newimpartial (talk) 15:11, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Girth Summit, why are you only reprimanding Awoma for it and not more or less the same action from Lilipo right above? --Equivamp - talk 14:06, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Equivamp, I don't believe that I'm reprimanding anyone - I'm asking that we all try to focus on content, and drawing attention to the policies on personal attacks. I am not exactly happy about Lilipo's assertion that there is a group of editors who hate Linehan - I think that goes too far in the direction of criticising other editors' motivations - but she at least stopped short of applying an label to those editors. I'd encourage everyone to keep this discussion focused exclusively on the content, and to leave speculation about others' motivations out of it. GirthSummit _(blether) 14:30, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

It's obvious why, no? You're just not allowed to say it. Awoma (talk) 15:26, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Awoma, I wasn't aware of a transphobic reputation being held about Misplaced Pages on other sites. If you could post links re same to my talk page, I'd appreciate it. As someone subject to a "trial" at AN/I recently for trying to accurately represent balance on trans-related issued on this and other articles, I'd be interested in reading such coverage. Bastun 23:10, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Bastun, I think this SPA might need to find somethign else to edit. Guy (help! - typo?) 00:10, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Bastun, You may not have been aware of it because it doesn't actually exist. Perhaps Awoma was confusing Misplaced Pages's actual reputation for misogyny and hostility toward female editors and feminists with a reputation for transphobia? There are a great many news articles that have been written and studies that have been conducted about that. Here are a few to start with:

"Misplaced Pages's Hostility to Women" The Atlantic:

"WP: Clubhouse? An Exploration of Misplaced Pages's Gender Imbalance" by Lam, et. al.

"Misplaced Pages Has a Misogyny Problem" Verily ]

"Where are the Women in Misplaced Pages?"" The New York Times

"Misplaced Pages Completely Failed to Fix Gender Imbalance" BBC

"Why 'women's voices disappear' on Misplaced Pages and what Hamilton women are doing about it" CBC

"Women Who Edit Misplaced Pages report Serious Harassment" Futurity Lilipo25 (talk) 00:37, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

In your opinion, it doesn't exist, or maybe you just haven't noticed it. Like I say, I wasn't aware of it, which is why I asked. However, as trans women are women, they do undoubtedly suffer the misogyny and hostility you mention above. Bastun 12:02, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Linehan's Twitter socking

I added a brief sentence about Linehan's recent self-outed alternate Twitter account which he deliberately revealed he had so he could call a man "a traitor to women, gay people and yourself", because the content was covered in a full-length article by PinkNews. Lilipo25 is edit warring over the content to introduce the following errors:

1. Violation of WP:UNDUE by introducing five lines of content (on my browser) about the topic, including lengthy weight to the open letter which is only of secondary relevance to the topic, which gives the open letter that Linehan did not sign and does not support more weight than anything Linehan has said or done relating to trans people (second to the Nazi experiments content, four lines but about two sets of comments).
2. criticised the creation of feminist and gay rights organisations which the signers deemed to hold is deliberate undermining of the letter. This isn't how we summarise people's points of view. We say their perspective and attribute it clearly, without the "but wink wink their opinion is wrong".
3. Introduction of an unreliable source, Gript, which is not a distinguished BLP-reliable publication so whose opinion is not of merit.
4. Everyone's favourite, WP:WEASEL, in the text ... a move that journalists pointed out ... which refers to one non-significant journalist's point of view.
5. Misrepresentation of a source's point of view, again about Gript, by reading the wording the writer used, would seem to clash with ... (emphasis mine) wrongly as would be at odds with ....
6. Verbose wording Linehan evaded the suspension with the creation of an account using an assumed name, deliberately revealing himself in order Linehan's account was immediately suspended a second time by Twitter rather than the salient points In December 2020, Linehan evaded the suspension with the creation of account which he used to call. I'd accept This alternate account was suspended by Twitter as an addition of content, but I honestly think it's so obvious as to not be worth noting.
7. Removal of the fact that Linehan's account posed as a trans man, a point so integral to the only reliable coverage—that of PinkNews—that it's in the headline.

Lilipo25 has shown intention to edit war, so I think we need some more voices in the conversation. The user has the intent to justify Linehan's the head of Amnesty International Ireland calling for women to be stripped of their political representation if they disagree with gender ideology's effect on their rights human rights groups, women's groups and numerous newspaper op-eds (clauses reordered, original here). I suppose by this Lilipo25 means "calling someone a traitor on Twitter". Personally, I have no interest in condemning or justifying Linehan, just of noting that he was suspended but was subsequently active on Twitter (which raises some small, self-contained questions we can answer by a single sentence—the one I introduced). Pinging Bastun, JzG, NEDOCHAN, Newimpartial and -sche based on who has contributed to one of the last couple of threads, has shown a longer-term interest in the page, and who is recently activate (bit of an arbitrary cutoff / may have made mistakes so ping anyone who seems odd to leave out). Note that one editor thanked me for the edit at the time but I won't say who without permission. — Bilorv (talk) 17:40, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, is the Twitter socking really relevant to include in this article? Especially without including the broader background of what he's apparently "criticizing", it seems like all that happened was he made a sock account on Twitter after being banned, revealed it to insult someone, then got banned again. --Equivamp - talk 17:54, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I am also pinging Crossroads and Autumnking to notify them of the discussion, as I'm surprised to see both left off the list of those pinged based on participation in past discussions on this page. Lilipo25 (talk) 04:07, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, wrong user name - should be Autumnking2012 Lilipo25 (talk) 04:12, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

A single sentence for a full-length PinkNews source is in line with what I consider standard practice across the articles I edit. With a topic like this I try to use every reliable source that exists, because there aren't too many of them. We could also say that the earlier part of the paragraph, about Linehan's suspension, is incomplete without mentioning that it didn't prevent him from being active on the site. — Bilorv (talk) 17:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

My own view is that the version which Lilipo has restored as of time of signing this post is better, however I do feel that his posing as a trans man should be made clear. Something like, 'using an assumed name of a trans man'. It's certainly relevant. The alternative is not including it at all. If it is included, I can't see how it benefits the article not to point out that he was posing as trans.NEDOCHAN (talk) 20:09, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@NEDOCHAN: thanks for the comment. Do you think that Gript is a reliable source? If so, could you expand a little on why? If not, would we be removing the content that only Gript covers? — Bilorv (talk) 00:47, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Several points: 1. Lilipo was reverted, but again reverted, themselves. WP:BRD should be followed - if reverted, discuss on talk, rather than re-revert. 2. Lilipo's version is too long; this article is about Linehan, and brief coverage of the ban evasion is appropriate and due. The ins and outs of the letter, less so. 3. That said, it would absolutely be appropriate to include the subject of the letter, moreso than is mentioned in Bilory's version. That can be done without (mis)representing what the letter was about (apparently some UK-based activists setting up an "Irish" anti-trans "organisation"), and without including more about criticism of the letter than Linehan's actual block evasion! 4. Gript is in no way a reliable source. 5. It beggars belief that we wouldn't include mention that Linehan was posing as a trans man on his sock account! I would therefore favour Bilory's version, with the addition of a sentence clause describing the subject of the letter. Bastun 23:37, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

NEDOCHAN Bastun It "beggars belief that we wouldn't include that Linehan was posing as a trans man on his twitter account" (quoting Bastun) - unless, of course, he wasn't. What the bio on his sock account said, in full, was Fun trans guy or Graham Linehan, it's almost as if people can lie about their identity on here! Pink News, being as always exceedingly biased against Linehan, claims he was simply "posing as a trans man", but if so, then we also have to say that he was openly revealing he was, in fact, Graham Linehan, since he wrote that in the bio, too, and gave it equal weight. But anyone reading the bio could see that he was doing neither and was in fact humorously saying that since anyone can lie in their twitter bio about who they are, no one should assume that anything a bio says is true.

Bastun, your description of "what the letter was about" is a severe misrepresentation, not mine; the groups you refer to were neither set up by UK-based activists nor are they anti-trans "organisations" (no need for the sarcastic quotation marks there at all): they are several Irish feminist and gay rights organisations, set up by Irish women and homosexuals to advocate for their own rights. As for Gript, it has never been deemed an unreliable source by Misplaced Pages, but I can change the source to Phoenix Magazine, if preferred - the Phoenix article is behind a paywall, but I have access to it. As for my not discussing it on this page before reverting back, I responded to Bilorv where he wrote to me, on my own talk page, and he made no effort to post here before reverting back twice.

My own opinion is that Equivamp is correct and the twitter socking doesn't belong in the article at all, as an encyclopedia is not meant to be a long list of the grievances that one very biased publication has against the article's subject, and this one already reads like Pink News is writing it. But if we must include it every time they publish another hit piece on Linehan, no matter how inconsequential the subject, then we must at least include other sources that give more context to the story than the very slanted view they create. Lilipo25 (talk) 03:35, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Unable to comment further until much later today but yes, Phoenix is fine as an additional source. Bastun 09:03, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

@Lilipo25: your misunderstanding of the situation is a perfect example of why we need to defer to reliable sources rather than make assumptions ourselves. Linehan used the "scarlysimon" account for months and of course did not joke that he was Graham Linehan in his bio until he had already outed himself with the "traitor" tweet. He posed as a trans man for a good long period prior to that tweet. (You can actually see him cite "scarlysimon" once on his blog.) This is why PinkNews correctly refer to the situation as such, based on investigative journalism backed up by editorial oversight rather than random guesses and wrong assumptions. — Bilorv (talk) 12:58, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

@Bilorv: My "misunderstanding of the situation"? First, even your Pink News source never says what you are claiming: it says nowhere at all in their story that he only put the "Graham Linehan" in the bio after outing himself. So I don't even understand the point of you stating that as if it's fact and then telling me we need to "defer to reliable sources" like Pink News because I "misunderstand the situation". According to their own story, the account was immediately suspended by Twitter when he outed himself and so he couldn't have changed the bio after that. They make no claim at all that he did.

Secondly, let's not be silly here: Pink News actively prides itself on the fact that it does no "investigative journalism" when it comes to celebrities in its hit pieces. This is the same publication that started a worldwide fury against JK Rowling recently by claiming her new book was all about a transgender serial killer, and then when actual newspaper reviewers read the book and said there was in fact no transgender character at all anywhere in it, Pink News proudly responded that they had never actually read any of the book before writing their story on it and never would read it because she's a bigot. They aren't the exactly the staff of the New Yorker. Lilipo25 (talk) 16:43, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that's right, your misunderstanding of the situation. My information comes from a primary source which is not reliable/significant/published for Misplaced Pages's purposes so I'm choosing not to provide it (screenshots of the account before it was suspended), but it is concrete fact that Linehan's account has been around for a lot longer than it has mentioned "Graham Linehan" in its bio. Uncontroversial fact—Linehan wouldn't try to hide it if you asked him, based on his newsletters and comments. Linehan had the account for at the very least a fortnight (possibly several months), posed as a trans man and commented on trans topics, and then recently used the account to call a man "a traitor" revealing it to be his own, also altering his bio and making a tweet pointing readers towards his blogs at the same time. The "traitor" comment was not the purpose or origin of the account, just the public identification of the account to Linehan. — Bilorv (talk) 18:02, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

I forgot that there's one piece of evidence I can easily point you to—Linehan quoting "scarlysimon" (his Twitter account) on his blog on 25 November, a week before he connected himself to the account. Before you say "this is original research / doesn't prove that X", that's exactly the point I'm making. This is why we write what reliable sources say, rather than trying to debunk them ourselves and making basic factual errors in the process. PinkNews, as little as you hear it, has been identified as generally reliable for such simple statements of fact as "Linehan created an account on Twitter which ..." by the Misplaced Pages community as a whole, per WP:RSP, so your argument against its use here cannot be "it's not generally reliable for simple statements of fact". — Bilorv (talk) 18:39, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Sigh, Bilorv, we are supposed to assume that other editors are editing in good faith. In order to do that, you have to at least attempt to argue in good faith. This is so egregiously outside of good faith that I don't even know what I'm supposed to do in response here.

How can I debate this issue when you make utterly false claims about what the published sources say while sneering about how I 'misunderstand', and when I point out that your sources say no such thing at all, change your story to claim you actually got your information from a secret "primary source" you have access to but won't name because it can't be used on Misplaced Pages, then say no, wait, actually, it is from Linehan's own blog - except that nothing in Linehan's blog backs what you said in the least! Nowhere does that link or any other on his blog show that he changed his bio after revealing he was behind the sock. It doesn't even show the bio! Him quoting the sock account on his blog is apropos of nothing at all that is being disputed.

There is no evidence in any source at all that your story about Linehan changing his bio is true. I have not misunderstood. This is absurd. Lilipo25 (talk) 03:38, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

My story has not changed—I referred to non-Pink News evidence and Linehan's blog in my initial comment; there are multiple pieces of information which I have, of which I've given the one that I can. I've not been talking about the published sources but the truth of what happened, which you are wrong in your description of. PinkNews refer to him posing as a trans man because he posed as a trans man for a long time before the account mentioned the name "Graham Linehan". If you're interested in WP:AGF then why are you assuming that I'm lying about something that I have no reason to lie about when I have no history of lying on Misplaced Pages in 20,000 edits? — Bilorv (talk) 12:22, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

You right now in the above comment: My story has not changed....I've not been talking about the published sources

You yesterday in this comment : Lilipo25 your misunderstanding of the situation is a perfect example of why we need to defer to reliable sources rather than make assumptions ourselves. Linehan used the "scarlysimon" account for months and of course did not joke that he was Graham Linehan in his bio until he had already outed himself with the "traitor" tweet. He posed as a trans man for a good long period prior to that tweet. (You can actually see him cite "scarlysimon" once on his blog.) This is why PinkNews correctly refer to the situation as such, based on investigative journalism backed up by editorial oversight rather than random guesses and wrong assumptions

I don't even know how to have a discussion with someone who repeatedly says something, then when it is shown to be wrong, simply denies they ever said it.

So instead I'll just ask: you keep saying you have personal access to "primary sources" with information on this situation that you can't cite in the article. In addition, you indicated that you know Pink News also has access to this information, but they have not published it anywhere. It is therefore reasonable to ask if you have an affiliation of any kind with Pink News or members of its staff? Lilipo25 (talk) 15:02, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely that's a reasonable question, and I'm sorry to have unintentionally given this impression. I have no financial or professional COI in regards to PinkNews and had no involvement in the article's research or publication. I choose to avoid all COI editing, but if I were to talk about news sources I had any involvement with then I would disclose it and not edit articles directly. — Bilorv (talk) 00:20, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

I cannot help but notice that your wording is somewhat circumspect, @Bilorv:. You say you have no financial COI and didn't help write or edit this particular article, but that isn't what was asked: do you have an affiliation with Pink News of any kind, and if so, what is the nature of that affiliation? Lilipo25 (talk) 00:49, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

No, I have no affiliation with PinkNews of any kind. Otherwise comments such as the ones I made at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_305#PinkNews would be a violation of COI. If you'd like, I could disclose the information I can't present on-wiki to an uninvolved administrator by email, who could confirm that they do not relate to PinkNews. — Bilorv (talk) 02:21, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

New development, new source: . I presume we would want to mention this in the same breath as the "scarlysimon" ban: This account was banned, though Linehan told fans he was using a new SIM card to create a new Twitter account. — Bilorv (talk) 13:10, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

That's yet another hit piece from the same tabloid source, Pink News, and seriously, now we're going to add everything he says to his fans that Pink News doesn't like to this encyclopedia article? So much for your call for "brevity". Lilipo25 (talk) 16:43, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Enough. Quoting Linehan isn't "another hit piece", it's quoting Linehan. It's perfectly fine to use the same source. Considering we cover his Twitter ban, then yes, Linehan evading that ban and boasting about doing it again is absolutely due - obviously and clearly so. Bastun 19:27, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Bastun, when you are finally put in charge of Misplaced Pages, you will get to tell me when I must stop participating in discussions. Until then, do stop saying "Enough" to me, as I am not your child and I do not stop speaking on your command. Lilipo25 (talk) 03:38, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Quoting Linehan isn't "another hit piece", it's quoting Linehan. It's perfectly fine to use the same source. Considering we cover his Twitter ban, then yes, Linehan evading that ban and boasting about doing it again is absolutely due - obviously and clearly so. Bastun 13:44, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

The first three words of the article refer to him as "Disgraced comedy writer". It goes on to quote a completely random twitter user calling him "unhinged". Please stop pretending these articles about him by Pink News are objective journalism that merely "quote Linehan". You know they aren't. Lilipo25 (talk) 15:10, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

When you get put in charge of my head, you can tell me what I know and don't know. WP:RSP has concluded that "There is rough consensus that PinkNews is generally reliable for factual reporting, but additional considerations may apply and caution should be used." Pinknews reported on Linehan's socking, quoting him in its report: "Using the handle “scarlysimon”, Linehan told Amnesty Ireland executive director Colm O’Gorman that he was a “traitor to women and gay people” for signing a letter supporting trans rights." and "He told his supporters in a newsletter Wednesday (2 December): “I had a new sim card standing by and am back on the site under a new account.”" Bastun 19:21, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

The sentence on Lenihan's socking currently reads "In December 2020, Linehan evaded the suspension with the creation of account posing as a trans man, which he used to call Colm O'Gorman "a traitor to women, gay people and yourself" for signing an open letter published by the Transgender Equality Network of Ireland." I think this needs some expansion - the letter in question was signed by 28 organisations and over 50 individuals. There needs to be some reference to that. As I argued at the JK Rowling article some time ago on a similar topic, we can't talk about "an open letter" without mentioning the subject of the letter. I therefore propose:

"In December 2020, Linehan evaded the suspension with the creation of an account posing as a trans man, which he used to call Colm O'Gorman "a traitor to women, gay people and yourself" for signing an open letter published by the Transgender Equality Network of Ireland and signed by over 75 individuals and organisations, that called for continued solidarity with the transgender community." Bastun 19:33, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

And once again, as in every single discussion on this talk page, you have simply bulldozed and dismissed all the voices that disagreed with yours and made the determination that the article will be written your way, to depict Linehan as negatively as possible. We have two editors (Equivamp and myself) saying this is an inconsequential incident not worthy of inclusion at all and two (you and Bilorv) who of course want it in because Pink News has written yet another hit piece on him using it. NEDOCHAN was fairly neutral, but did say my version was better than Bilorv's. And from that, you of course take it for granted that it will be included, bulldoze over the other opinions to decide only your biased source will be used and the article will reflect Pink News' negative view. Every discussion here ends this way.

The incident doesn't belong in an encyclopaedia article at all. Only Pink News even reported it (with their article reprinted by a handful of unreliable tabloid sources like Metro UK). Pink News should frankly never be used in this article as a source, in accordance with the "caution" Misplaced Pages suggests regarding them. They are wildly biased against the article subject and since they report on incidents so unimportant that no legitimate news sources will cover them at all and therefore provide an unbiased source that can be used to balance theirs, the entire section is now simply a repetition of their personal vendetta against him.

If you will insist (and you will) on including the incident, then at the very least you cannot use Pink News' absurd description of the letter he was objecting to. Other, far more legitimate, political publications have covered the letter. "In December 2020, Linehan revealed that he had evaded the suspension by creating a twitter account with a false name, which he used to call Amnesty Ireland executive director Colm O'Gorman "a traitor to women, gay people and yourself" for signing an open letter published by the Transgender Equality Network of Ireland. The letter called for feminists who "defend biology" and question aspects of gender-recognition legislation to be denied a media platform and political representation, a move heavily criticised by women's groups."(The Phoenix and Spiked can both serve as sources for the second sentence, since you didn't like the original source I used). Lilipo25 (talk) 20:57, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

NPOV? The TENI letter was signed by the National Women's Council of Ireland, Dublin Lesbian Line, Migrant and Ethnic Minorities for Reproductive Justice, the Abortion Rights Campaign, and other feminist- and feminist-led groups, though... Bastun 21:36, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Who signed the letter has nothing to do with the neutrality of the sources reporting on it. I consent to changing it to "heavily criticised by some feminist and gay-rights groups" (among those would be Women's Space Ireland, Radicailin, The Countess Didn't Fight for This and LGB Alliance Ireland) but not to using Pink News' false representation of the letter as merely "calling for solidarity with the transgender community" as you have done.

If you want to include Pink News' support of the letter in the article, then we will also be including those who condemned it (no, "brevity" does not mean we only represent the side you agree with): sources as wide-ranging across the political spectrum as the far-left Socialist Democracy (who called the letter "dangerous lies and hypocrisy"), Spiked ("McCarthyism"; "a chilling, authoritarian rant"), Phoenix magazine ("censorship") and the far-right Gript ("clashes with the Universal Declaration on Human Rights"). Also, public figures like the granddaughter of Amnesty International founder Sean McBride, Iseult White, who wrote an Op-Ed on it for the Irish Times (the letter "seeks to deny legitimate representation to people of conscience"), among others. Lilipo25 (talk) 00:31, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Spiked and Gript are not reliable. — Bilorv (talk) 12:31, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

False, Bilorv. Neither has been deemed an unreliable source by Misplaced Pages. If you want them to be, then you need to open a discussion on them in the Reliable Sources noticeboard. But you cannot continue to pronounce every conservative-leaning source "unreliable" simply because you don't agree with their politics. That's not how reliability works. Lilipo25 (talk) 19:38, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Spiked is far-left (at least in my opinion; I know there's differing views). There are of course millions of potential sources, and the onus is not on RSN to prohibit a source (there's not enough time in the world...), but the person trying to use a source to demonstrate either past precedent or substantial evidence that the website has a reputation for editorial fact-checking. I see little to no use of Gript or Spiked on the English Misplaced Pages (with Spiked receiving mostly negative views by editors when it is discussed, including on RSN), nor evidence that they have the requisite fact-checking policies (I'm more familiar with Spiked, which is just a source of polemic opinions with little regard for facts). — Bilorv (talk) 08:11, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Oh, for crying out loud, you're going to try to claim Spiked is far-left now? You can always check the Media Bias site, which rates every source for their political affiliation . And your description of Spiked as "just a source of polemic opinions with little regard for facts" perfectly suits Pink News, your favorite source for everything. Lilipo25 (talk) 14:47, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Where do I say I want to include PinkNews' "support" of the letter? I don't. Doubtful if Iseult White can be considered a "public figure", but in any case, notable ancestry does not convey authority. In a Republic, anyway. In contrast to the long-established groups and organisations who signed the letter that I mention above (NWCI and ARC have their own articles, Dublin Lesbian Line is a registered charity with a bricks-and-mortar address that's been around for a few decades, MERJ have been around for several years and have had speakers at Marches for Choice), "The Countess Didn't Fight For This" is a website registered in June, "Women's Space Ireland" is a website registered in April with a home page and website indicating transgender issues are its sole cause, and Radicailín (there's a fada) appears to be a twitter account created in August. Not very compelling. Bastun 13:44, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Using only Pink News' description of the letter as merely "calling for solidarity with the transgender community" is including their support for it, and is meant to falsely convey that Linehan objected to that. When what he objected to - as did many others - is the call for feminists and gays who question any aspect of gender ideology to be stripped of their political representation and media platform. You may dismiss any group of women who don't adhere to the same viewpoint that you do, but fortunately they need neither your permission nor O'Gorman's to object to an authoritarian call that they be silenced from advocating for their own rights. As for White, I didn't say that her ancestry is what gave her authority on the matter. Her response was covered by the media and she was published in the Irish Times on it. If Pink News' opinions are allowable, the Irish Times' certainly are. Lilipo25 (talk) 03:03, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

This seems so trivial. I'm not sure it should be included in this article and I can't believe you have spent this much space arguing over what should be a sentence, at most, if it can be reliably sourced and I'm not sure your sources are reliable. I'm sure impersonation on social media doesn't rank up in the Top 50 things a reader might want to know about this BLP and his career. It should be a footnote. Liz 05:50, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Welcome to the Graham Linehan article, Liz, where we have had entire sections opened on the Talk page over a single connective word ("but" or "and") in a sentence . 90% of it is the same argument over and over: whether or not every anti-Linehan article Pink News publishes should be recounted in the Misplaced Pages article about him, and if so, how it should be worded. Lilipo25 (talk) 10:12, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

I begin these discussions because you are the only editor who consistently undoes changes I make at this article that would never in a million years be undone at a non-politics topic (changing a connective, introducing a handful of words summarising a reliable source) and I won't let someone bully me into not making routine changes. — Bilorv (talk) 12:31, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

You begin these discussions specifically because you are looking to gather support from the usual anti-Linehan group to bully me into not making any attempts to make this article even slightly encyclopedic, rather than a listing of Pink News hit pieces on its subject. Lilipo25 (talk) 19:38, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Liz, I don't know how familiar you are with the topic, but Linehan's comments on Twitter and other social media (trivial as you might find them) are the only source of a large body of coverage about Linehan in the last two years and Twitter is the thing he is most well-known for since The IT Crowd. His ban definitely is one of the Top 10 things people know about him (or might want to know) and so I believe that the repeated ban evasion is relevant. I agree that it should only be a sentence. — Bilorv (talk) 12:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Also agreed, it should only be a sentence. Bastun 13:47, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

The problem is that when the two of you (Bilorv and Bastun) say "it should only be a sentence", you always mean that it should only include Pink News' heavily biased anti-Linehan account and anything that gives a more neutral viewpoint can't be added to that, because that would make it too long. You aren't concerned with brevity; you're concerned with keeping out anything that doesn't make the article subject look as bad as possible.

It's an unimportant incident that doesn't belong in the article at all and received zero coverage from any legitimate news media. Lilipo25 (talk) 03:03, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm concerned with including anything that has been mentioned in reliable sources and removing anything that has not been mentioned in reliable sources (or anything covered only in sources that do not mention Linehan by name). — Bilorv (talk) 08:11, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

I'd say an anti-trans advocate creating a sockpuppet account to pretend to be a transman, specifically to be quoted on his own blog, and then using that account to attack trans advocates, is worthy of at least a brief mention. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:53, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Exactly my view. Newimpartial (talk) 18:29, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

French source

So far as I can tell, this is just a French translation of the PinkNews source so it's not additional independent coverage. I also can't see much/any use of 45secondes on the English or French Misplaced Pages, a poor sign. — Bilorv (talk) 08:11, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

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