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What needs to be edited on this document.

The war crimes portion of the title needs to be capitalized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by William01pd2018 (talk • contribs) 16:27, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Death toll analysis

It has been brought to my attention that certain editors have scrutinized perfectly logical edits made by myself and have misconstrued my differing analysis as being "willfully misrepresented" and "without consensus". The figures I have cited ironically come from the exact same source cited by the original publisher of the death toll.

The original publisher had only cited Vladimir Žerjavić's 1995 figures regarding 18,000 and 29,000 Muslim deaths, for a total of 47,000 deaths. An alternative figure, offered by Zdravko Dizdar, cites 65,000 deaths (32,000 Croats and 33,000 Muslims), based on Žerjavić's earlier 1994 estimates. Interestingly and conversely, Dizdar is only mentioned briefly as affirming c.50,000 deaths, which I find to be facetious and misrepresentated, insofar as it seems to be purposely angled towards affirming Žerjavić's 1995 figure alone.

If Dizdar is mentioned as a corroborative source, then it is only logical that his full estimates and methodology should also be included. It is clear that Dizdar has cited the 65,000 death toll figure, with the aforementioned 50,000 figure being cited as a "guesstimate", according to Geiger.

Based on these findings, I therefore suggest that Dizdar's methodology and findings supporting the 65,000 death toll be included alongside that of Žerjavić, purely in the interest of balance, to establish a higher-lower death toll, which appropriately ranges from 47,000 to 65,000 deaths.

Tamerlanahayav (talk) 17:48, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Was there a 'Chetnik genocide' of Bosniaks and Croats?

This became a contentious issue on the Yugoslav Wars article, as "there is no consensus", so it should be brought up here. According to Tomasevich:

• "A fourth reason for the high human and material toll in Yugoslavia was the widespread practice of genocide—the systematic extermination of large numbers of people for political, ideological, religious, or racial reasons—which was then used in revenge by members of the wronged group or nationality. The most numerous victims were Serbs who perished at the hands of the Ustashas and Croats and Muslims who perished at the hands of the Chetniks." Tezwoo (talk) 23:30, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
• Several reliable scholars have described some of the Chetnik crimes as genocidal. Tomasevich, Hoare, Gojkovic etc. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:44, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

You could add to the article sth like "Some of the crimes committed by Chetniks have been described as genocide". Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:58, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

That "some of the crimes" are described as genocide does not seem to reflect what Tomasevich and Hoare say (I don't know which Gojković are you referring to). Tomasevich's quote is here already, and here is Hoare's:

"Chetnik genocide was the end result of the long struggle of the Bosnian Serb peasant-radicals against the Muslim landlords, as well as of the competition of Bosnian Serb nationalist politicians with the JMO for control of Bosnia- Hercegovina in the interwar period."

"If it was the Ustasha genocide of the Serbs that sparked a Partisan uprising waged under Bosnian patriotic and autonomist slogans, it was the Chetnik genocide of the Muslims and Croats and the Chetnik assault on the Partisans that definitely transformed the latter into a revolutionary movement aimed at establishing a Bosnian state." Tezwoo (talk) 16:40, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

:::: A number of prominent historians labeled the Chetnik crimes and atrocities against Muslims and Croats as genocide . Ramet is another historian who describes their actions as genocide. It is even listed on the Misplaced Pages Genocide page so it has consensus. MaloPoMalo (talk) 18:56, 29 April 2020 (UTC)Blocked sock: PortalTwo. --WEBDuB (talk) 11:44, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Crimes against Muslim population - most probably yes (but there is no consensus in academic works); war crimes against local Croats - no. WP:NPOV wording is a must here. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 21:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

:::::::There are four (4) sources stating YES for both Muslims and Croats. How do you state it is likely so for one and not the other despite RS saying otherwise? And who decides consensus exactly? This is seeming like a case uncomfortable facts. This is WP:IDONTLIKEIT. PortalTwo (talk) 21:46, 29 April 2020 (UTC)Blocked sock: MaloPoMalo. --WEBDuB (talk) 11:44, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

No, it is not. It seems to me that you still need to learn more about consensus and. There are 4 sources (and not all 4 use the same formulation, which is very important) but it's nowhere to be found in most other works on the topic, for example Yugoslav historiography does not mention it. I've read Dedijer, Djilas, Pavlowitch and several more notable historians - they only mention war crimes and ethnic cleansing, which is not disputed. Even the notable documentary TV series Yugoslavia in War 1941–1945 does not mention it. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 22:33, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

::::::::: I understand where you are coming from given your concern about those other sources not mentioning it. And I don’t blame you being skeptical. But given that these sources do in fact state it was Genocide, how can we ignore it? It was nowhere as deviously organized and wide scale as the Ustashe Genocide of Serbs, but it still happened although not as well looked into or covered. I only came across one source specifically saying the Chetniks did not carry out genocide, McDonald, but he also claims the Ustashe did not carry out a genocide. (Which blows my mind). I assume he has a very peculiar metric for what constitutes genocide. So given the 4, who are not from Croatia nor bare ties to ultranationalist sympathizers, they seem to carry weight. Tomasovich makes up a bulk of Misplaced Pages pages on WWII. They should be mentioned in the article as I agree with the other two editors. Other historians saying ethnic cleansing and massacres occurred doesn’t mean they cannot be or are claimed by them not to constitute genocide.PortalTwo (talk) 22:42, 29 April 2020 (UTC)Blocked sock: MaloPoMalo. --WEBDuB (talk) 11:44, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Obviously it is a significant number of scholars and authors who say it was a genocide of both Croats and Bosnian Muslims, so that needs to go in the article, cited to them. The absence of the word genocide in works by others can't be used to balance the authors who say it was genocide, because that is OR. What you would need to balance Tomasevich et al is authors who specifically say it was "not genocide", of which I am only aware of MacDonald, and as mentioned above, he doesn't think that anything that happened in Yugoslavia in WWII was genocide, so his is frankly a WP:FRINGE view, as the definition he uses of genocide is incredibly narrow and not mainstream at all. Especially not given his definition doesn't take into account Lemkin's original one. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:55, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree with @Peacemaker67, we must respect the sources and fact that Chetniks committing genocide against Croats and Bosniaks. Mikola22 (talk) 06:28, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - When evaluating !votes in this discussion it is necessary to have in mind that MaloPoMalo and PortalTwo are recently created accounts while editor interaction analysis shows that significant proportion of edits of Mikola22 (five times blocked this year) are in very narrow topics, systematically supporting the same POV as the other editors, most often aimed to present Serbs as inherently bad. Two of editors who support genocide hypothesis Peacemaker67 (diff) and Ktrimi991 (diff) routinely deny reliability of the sources if they are authored by people of Serb ethnicity. Knowing the ropes here, I am concerned that this !voting may attract members of multiple travelling circuses and sockpupets, so I reccommend any uninvolved admin thinking about closing this discussion to take this in consideration. I do not have intention to !vote in this discussion, and this comment will be my last comment in this discussion here.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:06, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

We all need work together on wikipedia. We have some reliable sources which we should respect. If this bothers you try imagine these people killed in the Chetniks genocide. These people have suffered and this must not be ignored, also and the Ustasha genocide etc must not be ignored. "present Serbs as inherently bad" IMO the problem is that most Serbians actually do not know much of their history (based on historical documents) that's why in my work on wikipedia I warned about forgeries which unfortunately exist and they are transmitted by foreign historians and RS on wikipedia. Instead of helping me keep these forgerys on wikipedia minimal as possible you are not with me. That you find Croatian forgeries I would be the first one to help you delete this citations etc from wikipedia. After you think again I hope you support these reliable sources, cheers. Mikola22 (talk) 19:30, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Typically of Antid, when he can't gain consensus for his POV, he attacks the man (claiming sock, meat, or travelling circus) and then runs away. I hope the closing admin will take Antid's POV editing history and behaviour into account when evaluating his commentary. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:50, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Comment: Another selfrefutal. User:PortalTwo and User:MaloPoMalo are indeff blocked as socks.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:05, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

There's also the issue of article name and scope. The part about the crimes against Partisans is sourced mostly with Yugoslav-era books and primary sources, and there's not much on that in Tomasevich, Redžić, or Hoare. To avoid WP:COATRACK, it would be best to split that into a separate article. Tezwoo (talk) 16:24, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

References

1. Tomasevich, Jozo (2001). War and Revolution in Yugoslavia: 1941–1945. Stanford University Press. p. 747. ISBN 0804779244. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help)
2. Marko Attila Hoare (2007). The History of Bosnia: From the Middle Ages to the Present Day. Saqi. p. 254. ISBN 978-0-86356-953-1.
3. Marko Attila Hoare (2007). The History of Bosnia: From the Middle Ages to the Present Day. Saqi. p. 256. ISBN 978-0-86356-953-1.
4. Tomasevich, Jozo (2001). War and Revolution in Yugoslavia. Stanford University Press. p. 747. ISBN 978-0-8047-0857-9.
5. Redžić, Enver (2005). Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Second World War. New York: Tylor and Francis. p. 155. ISBN 978-0714656250.
6. Hoare, Marko (2006). Genocide and Resistance in Hitler's Bosnia: The Partisans and Chetniks, 1941–1943. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 386.

The Croats had substantial numbers of Partizans; The Bosniaks, not so much. According to Yugoslav sources, the Bosniaks constituted about 2.5% of the Partizans. Peacemaker is notoriously unreliable and biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.187.100.203 (talk) 17:40, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Is the Chetnik Genocide disputed?

There's an extensive section based on Hoare, Marko Attila (2006). Genocide and Resistance in Hitler's Bosnia: The Partisans and the Chetniks, 1941-1943. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0197263801. among many sources. It describes the ethnic cleansing campaign by collaborators of the Nazis, the Chetniks, as genocide. If some editors want to change the WP:STABLE, do the grunt work and get bibliography, but we won't change how fascist war crimes are described because "it's more NPOV". Thank you. --Maleschreiber (talk) 03:41, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Specifically in relation to the genocide of Bosnian Muslims, there is also Miletić, Antun and Dedijer, Vladimir (1990) Genocid nad Muslimanima, 1941-1945 and Čekić, Smail (1996) Genocid nad Bošnjacima u Drugom svjetskom ratu: dokumenti. And plenty of others if we need to dig them up to make the point. It is hardly a fringe view. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:32, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

In relation to Croats as well in a number of sources. “Hoare’s monograph is divided into eight chapters addressing the Serb Rebellion against fascist occupation, the Croatian Ustasha and Serbian Chetnik genocides, the shift from a Partisan strategy...”

Other historians regarding Chetnik actions during this period as constituting genocide.

Zdravko Dizdar's "Chetnik Genocidal Crimes Against Croatians and Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Against Croatians in Croatia During World War II (1941-1945)" in Aleksander Ravlić (ed.) 1998 book Southeastern Europe 1918–1995.

Genocid nad Muslimanima by Vladimir Dedijer, which focuses on the genocide carried out by the Chetniks on Bosnian Muslims in eastern Bosnia in particular. Doesn’t seem fringe. Chetniks had a stronger hatred for Bosniaks and Croats strangely but they are still included. OyMosby (talk) 07:36, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

• That is still only several historians, as I said before, there is more mentions of genocide done to the Muslims, which is not the general case for Croats. The title alone seems awkward ("Genocide of Bosniaks and Croats") and a verbal construct of Misplaced Pages editors. The number for the Croats are simply not there, neither is the scale of crimes, which simply can't be compared to most of similar terrible events. Another thing, as far as I know Encyclopedia of genocide is not listing it. I shall check other encyclopedias as well, but those which I've read years ago did not list it, I know that for sure. Another thing, is the disputed /genocide of Croats/ by the Chetniks per UN convention? Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 20:46, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

How exactly is the UN Convention relevant? It was created AFTER WWII. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:00, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

“ The number for the Croats are simply not there, neither is the scale of crimes, which simply can't be compared to most of similar terrible events.” True if you keep ignoring the sources. The same sources that describe Bosniak victims states number of Croat victims. How are they not there? A genocide not being as terrible as another doesn’t discredit it. Number of Croat victims are not that far off from Bosniak victims. The number of victims is sourced in the article. “ there is more mentions of genocide done to the Muslims, which is not the general case for Croats.” Most of sources that are RS state a genocide was waged toward Bosniak AND Croats so I don’t get this constant push to ignore the Croat victims of this crime. It’s blatantly denying the sources and the Croat victims.OyMosby (talk) 21:13, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

The comparison of numbers of victims doesn't a serve any purpose in terms of how historiography approaches the subject. What is a fact is that the Chetnik ethnic cleansing campaign had the goal of eliminating the non-Serb population of Bosnia and it made no distinction between Bosniaks and Croats.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:30, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Nor did it make a difference if the target were partisan/communist Serbs. Should we add them to the article as well? Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 23:05, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

There is a different between targeting people for ethnic reasons to make a homogeneous ethno state vs political or ideological reasons. The Ustashe killed a huge amount of anti-fascist Croats. By your logic is that genocide? And no I am not at all comparing thenChetniks and the Ustase genocides as equal at all before that accusation arises again from the past.OyMosby (talk) 23:17, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

@Sadko: The article discusses Chetnik war crimes in general, so you could expand the section about war crimes against antifascist Serbs. --Maleschreiber (talk) 00:30, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber: would it not make more sense to have that as a separate article? Chetnik atrocities against anti-fascist and or Partisan Serbs? Then again that just complicates things into FORKS. And this is a general scope article. So I think I agree with you. OyMosby (talk) 00:45, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Agree with Maleschreiber, this is about Chetnik war crimes in WWII, regardless of against whom they were committed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:48, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Editor @Tezwoo: had proposed “ The part about the crimes against Partisans is sourced mostly with Yugoslav-era books and primary sources, and there's not much on that in Tomasevich, Redžić, or Hoare. To avoid WP:COATRACK, it would be best to split that into a separate article.” but for the time being if the title is crimes in general then atrocities against any Chetnik victims would make sense here. I disagree with Tezwoo on disregarding Yugoslav-Era books though. OyMosby (talk) 00:56, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

A side comment about categorization of victims: We shouldn't overcategorize them. We can all agree that ethnic violence is different from strictly political violence, but both refer to the same end goal: seizure of power. If you strip mass state/parastate violence against civilians from its ideological content, a very cynical reality emerges.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:00, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

In parallel with the significant improvement of the Genocide of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia article, several editors who opposed some changes have edited this and The Holocaust in German-occupied Serbia in a similar way. Before that, there was practically never a debate about the categorization of these crimes. Let's ignore this well-known habit of “countermeasures” on Balkan topics, but drawing parallels is very wrong. Genocide in the NDH is widely recognized by scholars (even Croatian historians claim that the crimes are unequivocally classified as genocide), memorial centers, institutes, head of states (even of Croatia and B&H), Raphael Lemkin, Israel Charny's the Encyclopedia of Genocide, Yad Vashem, Simon Wiesenthal Center, Combat Genocide Association etc.

In the case of Chetnik mass crimes, there is a lack of academic consensus on genocide categorization, as well as everything else listed that exists for the NDH and other widely known genocides. Several of the same authors are always cited here, and the lack of consensus is ignored. Moreover, some scholars explain that the crimes can't be characterized as genocide because the Chetniks were not one organized and homogeneous group, as well as they didn't have their own regime, state apparatus and something like that. I really appreciate the significant improvement of articles about Chetniks and their crimes, but simply, this characterization of genocide is not something that is widely accepted in the mainstream media and by consensus of scholars and institutions related to the topic. Of course, no one questions the existence of crimes, their number and brutality, the nature of ethnic cleansing campaigns, and collaboration with Nazis. --WEBDuB (talk) 20:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

WEBDuB you had just said on another talk page to assume good faith and not engaged in conspiracies such as “countermeasure” otherwise vise versa it can go both ways. There tends to be a certain collection of editors that oppose Chetnik crimes to constitute genocide have also engaged in editing other Similar pages almost in response to the debate on the Genocide of Serbs page and improvements made to The Chetniks page too. But again this is all baseless conspiracy theories. No one apposed mentioned of genocide on the Genocide of Serbs page (which is not new nor has it been dramatically changed for years) so there is no “parallel” As the improvements didn’t change much of the facts already there. Let’s stop with these conspiracy theories. No one is drawing parallels or equalizing the crimes at all. Quite the opposite. The topic of Chetniks crimes constituting genocide predates the recent changes of the Genocide of Serbs page. It was discussed over years a go on the Genocide general page and The Chetniks page. So its a fact this isn’t tit for tat and we shouldn’t avoid improvements in fear of it talking away the spotlight or being done out of pure spite. These are not valid counter arguments. Also please cite the sources claiming these crimes do not constitute genocide. It would help. There are several RS sources saying otherwise. Thank you. OyMosby (talk) 20:39, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

These are not conspiracy theories, I have already been the victim of WP:HOUNDING combined with tendentious editing several times. Some editors literally copied my sentences in a short period of time and replace some words. Regardless, I said we should put that aside. For example, several authors (Tomislav Dulić, Paul Mojzes, Michele Frucht Levy, Philipp Ther, Ana Trbovich...) compared the crimes and campaigns of the Chetniks with the Ustaše and other participants in the war. They unequivocally emphasized that genocide was systematically committed in the NDH, while that the Chetniks did not have a regime, state apparatus, propaganda machinery, etc.

As I have already explained, many genocide scholars and relevant institutions omit to mention and classify Chetniks crimes as genocide, while most authors and virtually all mainstream media describe them mainly as massacres and ethnic cleansing. That is horrible enough, there is no need to equate it with some other events. This all is already a sufficient argument for the absence of a consensus. Simply, the term of Chetniks genocide is not accepted at all (besides the Al Jazeera and some pro-government Balkans media outlets), and Misplaced Pages should present a predominantly accepted view and categorization. --WEBDuB (talk) 21:35, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

You had said we are not to compare Ustashe atrocities to Chetnik crimes yet you are comparing them. See what I mean? No one is trying to equate them. If they are then they are blind anti Serb nationalists. Genocides vary greatly in size, scope, mechanism and so on. The Rwanda genocide had no system it was people running around with machetes and gardening tools but it was still a genocide. I get your point of “well why isn’t it widely known like the others?”. Historical research is an ever evolving process much like Misplaced Pages which is updated faster than other platforms. Some of the sources I presented were published in recent years as Chetnik activity, being as you said not as organized and systemic with the power backing of the German Bayonets keeping Pavlic safe and in power direct as a state(all though Chetniks received supplies from the Germans when they got to collaboration stage), it makes research all the more difficult there are still horrors being uncovered we don’t even know about yet they may have happened around the world. The NDH being a German puppet state and having extensive documentation of their own and by the a Germans is easier to trace than guerrilla fighters as you said not in a structured extermination system. When I was reading these books and looking further into the Chetniks in Tomasevich’s book were he made claims of Genocide it caught my attention personally. I can’t speak for everyone else though. And it lead me down a rabbit whole finding reputable sources confirming it constituted genocide. Otherwise I would be here arguing in favor of labeling the Chetnik atrocities as genocide. Please know my intentions are pure here and out of empathy for the civilian victims who cannot speak. And I don’t care what ethnicity any victims were they all deserve the facts to be heard and we should go by RS. Again where are these sources specifying orcountering the other sources that Chetnik activities cannot be labeled genocide? It would help in this conversation. Regards, OyMosby (talk) 21:53, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't question your intentions for a moment. Also, the emphasis was not on the comparison with the Ustaše, but on the author's conclusions that there is not genocide. Furthermore, it is not necessary here to have a conclusion of that kind, a sufficient argument is the lack of inclusion of Chetniks crimes in most relevant sources related to genocide. It is an indisputable fact that most media, publications, books, institutions and authorities use terms such as “massacres” and “ethnic cleansing”, as opposed to “genocide”. The Rwandan government was led by the ethnic Hutu political leader. Most importantly, Rwanda genocide is widely known by that name. Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. (WP:UNDUE) --WEBDuB (talk) 22:04, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

My point was was not the notoriety of the Rawanda Genocide but that it was carried out by people using tools inspired by hate speech on a radio unorganized around the country, in a short amount of time with a huge numbers of victims. Regardless of the Hutu leader and government who stood and allowed it to unfold. The Chetniks had a leaser as well. Dragoljub-Draza Mihailovic. Also keep in mind the Rewanda genocide was massive and televised in the modern era. I already said I understand your viewpoint of “ well why isn’t it widely known like the others?”. A valid question. And I gave an explanation. But still what are these sources you mention that outright claim it was not a genocide since ethnic cleansing is a component of genocide, that doesn't deny genocide happened? Bear that in mind. Who defines consensus and which sources are relative? I think at this point we both said what we could say. OyMosby (talk) 22:41, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Dragoljub Mihajlović was the leader of the Yugoslav Army in the Homeland, while the term Chetniks is much broader. It is used for different groups that were not interconnected and ideologically homogeneous. However, that is not the main topic. But still what are these sources you mention that outright claim it was not a genocide since ethnic cleansing is a component of genocide, that doesn't deny genocide happened? That would be WP:OR. It is important to mention that there are authors who characterize crimes as genocide, but it is not correct to state this as a fact established by consensus, we put in the titles of articles, articles and templates about genocide. Most genocide scholars and institutions omit Chetniks. Also, those who describe and investigate crimes classify them differently. These are all facts supported by sources, so as not to repeat myself. Also keep in mind the Rewanda genocide was massive and televised in the modern era. There is also a lot of talk about Chetnik crimes in modern times, and it should be talked about, but different terms and classifications are predominantly used. According to Misplaced Pages policies, we have to follow that. --WEBDuB (talk) 23:14, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

But still what are these sources you mention that outright claim it was not a genocide since ethnic cleansing is a component of genocide, that doesn't deny genocide happened? That “would be WP:OR” I said state the sources that say it wasn’t a genocide. Ethnic cleansing is a component of genocide. What is OR here? The absence of the word genocide in works by others can't be used to balance the authors who say it was genocide, because that is OR. You glossed over this quote that was asking you to present the sources you claim say it wasn’t genocide. Otherwise it is OR to assume if the authors says ethnic cleansing that they are claiming it wasn’t or cannot be considered genocide. Chetnik crimes didn’t unfold in modern times, Rwanda did. Talking about old crimes vs seeing them unfold and recorded realtime in modern times is hugely different for historiography and the ease of documenting what happened. I think my point was pretty obvious. The operating nature of the Chetnik factions only adds to the complexities hence my point that some genocides are quicker or easier to document or het more publicity. There are some genocides hardly spoken of not as well covered in the mainstream. I understand your views on this and I think now you might understand mine, that quote of my last reply in particular. We’re just going in circles at this point. The sources are all there up above. They state what they state. They speak for themselves. I’ll leave the floor to others in this thread. OyMosby (talk) 23:30, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@OyMosby: The discussion has effectively concluded. Existing bibliography is fairly represented in the article. If bibliography emerges, new discussions may start. The important thing is to discuss on the basis of bibliography without allowing a WP:FORUM environment to emerge.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:51, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber: agreed. No need to go on and on. Bibliography was recently updated today however without discussion. Please take a look. OyMosby (talk) 20:03, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Genocide question

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Should it be emphasized throughout the article, first in the lead and the historiography section, that the question of classifying crimes as genocide is open and that there is no consensus? --WEBDuB (talk) 19:24, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

@Buidhe:, @Paul Siebert:, @Davide King:, @Volunteer Marek: I would be extremely grateful for your comments.

Comment – It is true that there are authors who claim that the Chetniks committed genocide, but their inclusion in that context as a supermajority and accepted view is WP:UNDUE, WP:CHERRYPICKING and WP:EXCEPTIONAL. The fact is there is no academic consensus, nor is it an established majority view in the mainstream media. If the overwhelming majority of sources described the crimes not as genocide, and if most genocide scholars (including Raphael Lemkin and Israel Charny), relevant institutions and memorials (such as the Yad Vashem, Simon Wiesenthal Center, Combat Genocide Association, Genocide Watch, International Association of Genocide Scholars...), head of states, authorities, etc., do not include Chetniks crimes among genocides, there is no need to provide a source that explicitly says that was not genocide.

However, we even have sources that directly deal with of categorization and that refuted claims that it was genocide, but massacres, crimes against humanity, and ethnic cleansing! That is horrible enough, there is no need to equate it with some other events. Some of these authors are Paul Mojzes, David Bruce MacDonald, Tomislav Dulić, Michele Frucht Levy. Also, some reviewers questioned the use of the term “genocide” by Marko Attila Hoare, who is often referred to. Furthermore, Samuel Totten notes that some historians argue that the Chetniks committed genocide. He didn't say that it was a dominant and unanimously accepted position. Even, neither Vladimir Žerjavić nor Vladimir Geiger mentions genocide, and they are most cited in Croatia and overall as a source on the death toll.

The term of Chetniks genocide is not accepted at all by mainstream media (besides the Al Jazeera and some pro-government Balkans media outlets and media that try to establish a false balance, primarily trivialize the Genocide of Serbs and make it less visible), and Misplaced Pages should present a predominantly accepted view and name. (WP:POVNAMING) Also, it is extremely difficult to find a connection between the terms Chetniks and genocide by the Google search.

Comment – It is important to remember that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. Any sort of WP:CANVASS is considered inappropriate. It is also necessary to present the overall context. Тhis article was massively changed during the same period with the significant improvement and extensive discussions on the Genocide of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia article. Several editors who opposed some changes have edited this and some other articles in a similar way. That sort of ‘countermoves’ and generally WP:TENDENTIOUS are common on Balkan topics. Before that, there was practically never a debate over whether the Chetniks committed genocide or not. --WEBDuB (talk) 19:25, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

References

1. Tomasevich, Jozo (2001). War and Revolution in Yugoslavia. Stanford University Press. p. 747. ISBN 978-0-80477-924-1.
2. Redžić, Enver (2005). Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Second World War. New York: Taylor and Francis. p. 155. ISBN 978-0-71465-625-0.
3. Hoare, Marko (2006). Genocide and Resistance in Hitler's Bosnia: The Partisans and Chetniks, 1941–1943. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 386. ISBN 978-0-19726-380-8.
4. Mojzes, Paul (2011). Balkan Genocides: Holocaust and Ethnic Cleansing in the 20th Century. Lanham: Rowman & Littlefield. pp. 98–99. ISBN 9781442206632. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
5. MacDonald, David Bruce (2009). "From Jasenovac to Srebrenica: Subaltern Genocide and the Serbs". In Robins, Nicholas A.; Jones, Adam (eds.). Genocides by the Oppressed: Subaltern Genocide in Theory and Practice. Bloomington, Indiana: Indiana University Press. p. 107.
6. Dulić, Tomislav (2010). "Ethnic Violence in Occupied Yugoslavia: Mass Killing from Above and Below". In Djokić, Dejan; Ker-Lindsay, James (eds.). New Perspectives on Yugoslavia: Key Issues and Controversies. Routledge. p. 94. ISBN 978-1-136-93132-1. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
7. Levy, Michele Frucht (2013). "'The Last Bullet for the Last Serb': The Ustaša Genocide against Serbs: 1941–1945". In Crowe, David (ed.). Crimes of State Past and Present: Government-Sponsored Atrocities and International Legal Responses. Routledge. p. 57.
8. Gumz, Jonathan (2011). "Reviews: Marko Attila Hoare, Genocide and Resistance in Hitler's Bosnia: The Partisans and Chetniks, 1941—1943, British Academy Postdoctoral Fellowship Monograph, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2006; xiv + 386 pp; £65.00 hbk; ISBN: 9780197263808: Stevan K. Pavlowitch, Hitler's New Disorder: The Second World War in Yugoslavia, London: Hurst Publishers, 2008; xix + 332 pp.; £20.00 pbk; ISBN: 1850658951". Journal of Contemporary History. 43 (3): 219. doi:10.1177/00220094110460010310. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
9. Williams, Heather (2008). "Genocide and Resistance in Hitler's Bosnia: The Partisans and Chetniks, 1941-1943. By Marko Attila Hoare. Oxford: Oxford University Press for the British Academy, 2006. xiv, 386 pp. Notes. Bibliography. Glossary. Index. Maps. $99.00, hard bound". Slavic Review. 67 (2): 465–466. doi:10.1017/S0037677900023810. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
10. Totten, Samuel; Parsons, William Spencer (2013). Centuries of Genocide: Essays and Eyewitness Accounts. Routledge. p. 483. ISBN 978-0-41587-191-4.

• NPOV is a requirement. Per the sources above, whether it is a genocide is disputed by reliable sources. The qualification as genocide, therefore, should be described as a disagreement, with different viewpoints given weight according to the weight of reliable sources. (t · c) buidhe 19:48, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

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