| Revision as of 13:10, 4 March 2021 edit94.173.127.175 (talk) →Semi-protected edit request on 4 March 2021: new sectionTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 13:55, 27 December 2024 edit undoUltraodan (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers1,265 edits →Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2024 |
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| quote = As Adrianne LaFrance noted in the Atlantic, there is no self-evident unifying theory about why certain Misplaced Pages pages are higher quality than others. But with its combination of primary sources, motivated contributors, and shared vision, St. Patrick’s entry could be hinting at the magic formula. |
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| quote = As Adrianne LaFrance noted in the Atlantic, there is no self-evident unifying theory about why certain Misplaced Pages pages are higher quality than others. But with its combination of primary sources, motivated contributors, and shared vision, St. Patrick’s entry could be hinting at the magic formula. |
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{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1={{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=B|listas=Patrick, Saint}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Patrick, Saint|1= |
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{{WikiProject Christianity|class=B|importance=Top|catholicism=yes|catholicism-importance=Top|anglicanism=yes|anglicanism-importance=Mid|saints=yes|saints-importance=Top|eastern-orthodoxy=yes|eastern orthodoxy-importance=High}} |
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{{afd-merged-from|Battle for the Body of Saint Patrick|Battle for the Body of Saint Patrick|19 November 2017}} |
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== Lutheran saint? == |
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== St. Patrick's Birthplace, Place of Burial and Shrines == |
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The text asserts that Patric is "venerated as a saint in the ... Lutheran church...". Lutheran churches do not recognize "saints" or venerate them, even though Lutheran church buildings may be named after disciples, evangelists or archangels venerated by Catholics as "saints". ] (]) 14:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC) |
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There is absolutely no definitive, provable birthplace or place of burial for Patrick. Surely it makes sense to use the term "possibly" along with suggestions of various, debated places of origin? E.g. "Possibly Roman Britain", "Possibly Roman France". On the subject of major shrines, surely major Irish shrines should be listed? (Croagh Patrick, for example?) Thanks. |
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== Germanus and Catocus == |
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== Quality of Content == |
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This is a truly dreadful article, mostly obsessed with Catholic trivia about shamrocks, bells, and visions. Patrick was actually a most important person in establishing and propagating literacy - a fundamental tool for propagating religious philosophy. Catholicism, for example. By ignoring the literacy part of Patrick's existence, this article becomes an astonishing and execrable waste of time! Is nobody here aware of this other side of Patrick's life, not to mention being able to include some relevant history? ] (]) 01:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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In tracing the mission of Germanus of Auxerre to Britain in 429, I've come across 19thc. scholarship that refers to Cattug/Catocus/Catwg as a member of that mission along with Patrick, with a suggestion that Catocus also turned up in Ireland. I can't find the sources for these assertions, and am wondering if there's any substance to them. Shtove 00:59, 10 March 2020 (UTC) |
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:We don't really know any of this. You seem to want to replace one style of hagiographical myth-making with another. ] (]) 15:44, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::I'm again astonished that a would-be Patrick scholar would be so completely in the dark about Patrick's work as to suggest that it's simply more "hagiographical myth-making"! Here is just '''one''' example of an academic analysis of Patrick's substantial, even monumental, works from 807 A.D.: https://www.confessio.ie/manuscripts/dublin#1 <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:::I'm well aware of the ''Confessio'', but I don't think Patrick actually mentions teaching reading, let alone writing, anywhere in it, though he may well have done some of that. ] (]) 02:23, 18 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:I wholehearedly concur. There is a load of deliberate obfuscation here. What is the point of quoting an idiot from 130 years ago who was so arrogant as to assert that Patrick could not spell at all. You quote him as referring to "Bonaven Taburnia" when it is, of course, ''Bannavem Taburniae''. Yes... this does refer to the Roman Fort Banna on Hadrian's Wall (now usually called Birdoswald). |
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:The Bannaventa near Coventry is matched by another, now Banwen, in Wales and means "pig market". On the other hand Bannavem Taburniae means "The Boars' Inns" because when the legionaries left it became a hunting lodge complex. ] (]) 15:41, 26 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Myth? == |
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:What 19th century sources are you getting this from? It's very likely that Palladius was an associate of Germanus, as according to Prosper Germanus was sent to Britain by Celestine on the recommendation of a deacon called Palladius, and the same pope then appointed Palladius, presumably the same one, as the first bishop to the Irish. Perhaps your source thought Palladius and Patrick were the same person? --] (]) 11:44, 10 March 2020 (UTC) |
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::Thanks. Here's one discussing Patrick in Germanus's mission - the lengthy '''note a''' at the foot of p.21: https://archive.org/details/councilsecclesia01hadduoft/page/21/mode/1up |
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::It does cover your suggestion of mistaking one for the other. I have somewhere another source that accepts the possible mistake at face value, but can't find it just now - and it's likely that source hasn't considered the possibility. |
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::Any inklings about Cattug/Catocus/Catwg in respect of that mission? Shtove 16:31, 10 March 2020 (UTC) |
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So, is St. Patrick a myth? ] (]) 14:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Now I see where you're coming from. There is a tradition, found in Fiacc's Hymn and many of the medieval lives of Patrick, that after he escaped from slavery, he went to the continent and studied with Germanus and others. Victorian scholars tended to regard these medieval Irish texts as historical sources. Most modern scholars don't. The only authentic sources on Patrick are his Confession and Letter, which make no reference to Germanus. The later sources are all unreliable and unverifiable. In particular, the traditions associating him with Germanus, as your link points out, most likely derive from a confusion between Patrick and Palladius. |
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:::No idea about Catocus. The only person of that name I'm aware of is St. ], who is supposed to have lived the following century. --] (]) 19:15, 10 March 2020 (UTC) |
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:Err..... no, but the Catholic Church did so mess with eg his dates (for their own political reasons) as to make their story as worthless as a myth. There was a real person born c420 at Gretna who died in 493. ] (]) 15:44, 26 June 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Cheers! And I've reached the same conclusion on Catocus. The query arose from the stone carvings at Lady St Mary's in Wareham, which seemed to stir up some aboriginal Wessex sentiment back in the day. Shtove 22:28, 16 March 2020 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 17 March 2020 == |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2024 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Saint Patrick|answered=yes}} |
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{{edit semi-protected|Saint Patrick|answered=yes}} |
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Add a hyperlink to 'Ireland' in the patronage that leads to the Ireland Misplaced Pages page. ] (]) 21:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Please change X to Y, because the page seems to lack specific links to other places - especially within Somerset. Glastonbury has a rich link with both Irish pilgrims of the faith and St. Patrick to this day and I think linking it in wiki will only enrich and add further interest to the amazing knowledge that is here thus far. It will also add context to the mention of Glastonbury within the list of "major shrines" section. Thank you. |
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For reference - X reads: |
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"Patrick was born in Roman Britain. His birthplace is not known with any certainty; some traditions place it in England—one identifying it as Glannoventa (modern Ravenglass in Cumbria)—but claims have also been advanced for locations in both present-day Scotland and Wales." |
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Edit request to change it to Y: |
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"Patrick was born in Roman Britain. His birthplace is not known with any certainty; some traditions place it in England—one identifying it as Glannoventa (modern Ravenglass in Cumbria), with one historian claiming it to be Banwell in Somerset ,due it's location (access to the Bristol Channel) and is also close to Glastonbury - a place that has been commonly associated with his final resting place. Claims have also been advanced for locations in both present-day Scotland (Kilpatrick) and Wales." |
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http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artgue/guestjelley.htm & https://www.irishcatholic.com/new-light-on-st-patricks-birthplace/ |
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1 See H. P. R. Finberg. I.E.R. June 1967 "“pilgrims of Irish race, like many others of the faithful, frequented Glastonbury with great devotion, especially in honour of blessed Patrick, who is said to have ended his life happily 'there in the Lord”" ] (]) 08:12, 17 March 2020 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' According to the page's protection level you should be able to ]. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details.<!-- Template:ESp --> '''''<span style="background:#4169E1;padding:2px; border-radius:7px"><span class="nowrap">]]</span></span>''''' 09:44, 19 March 2020 (UTC) |
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== Questionable "Abduction Reinterpreted" Section == |
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This section rests on the assertions of one scholar, whose argument on this subject has not been accepted in mainstream scholarship on Late Antiquity or St. Patrick. See the review by Diarmaid MacCulloch. |
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https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v41/n15/diarmaid-macculloch/who-kicked-them-out |
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I would propose eliminating the section outright, or, at least, adding a clear disclaimer that the opinion is not generally accepted. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:02, 13 December 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Checking the section itself it should either be made clearer that it only has a single source. One of the links is also now dead, I'm unsure how to show that on the citation itself. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:14, 13 December 2020 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 4 March 2021 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Saint Patrick|answered=no}} |
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It says that St Patrick was born in Great Britain but this is incorrect as Great Britain did not officially exist until 1707. It would be accurate and proper to state the British Isles which refers to the geographical area rather than to any particular country seeing as the country is contested however he was definitely not born in Great Britain unless he had a time machine! |
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Great Britain is widely understood to mean England, Wales and Scotland hence the British passport says the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Many today perceive Great Britain as a country. |
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:{{not done}}:<!-- Template:ESp --> already linked under died and should not be relinked as per ] ] (]) 13:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Whilst it is said Great Britain was used colloquially to refer to the mainland of the British Isles, confusion can still arise when using the term today as it is also a politically loaded term which may be used to assert a particular identity rather than to assert a geographical area, particularly with regards to Unionist and Nationalist debates relating to national identity. For these reasons it would be more prudent to use British Isles. ] (]) 13:10, 4 March 2021 (UTC) |
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The text asserts that Patric is "venerated as a saint in the ... Lutheran church...". Lutheran churches do not recognize "saints" or venerate them, even though Lutheran church buildings may be named after disciples, evangelists or archangels venerated by Catholics as "saints". Jarmo K. (talk) 14:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
This is a truly dreadful article, mostly obsessed with Catholic trivia about shamrocks, bells, and visions. Patrick was actually a most important person in establishing and propagating literacy - a fundamental tool for propagating religious philosophy. Catholicism, for example. By ignoring the literacy part of Patrick's existence, this article becomes an astonishing and execrable waste of time! Is nobody here aware of this other side of Patrick's life, not to mention being able to include some relevant history? Henrilebec (talk) 01:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Not done: already linked under died and should not be relinked as per MOS:REPEATLINK Ultraodan (talk) 13:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC)