Misplaced Pages

Latest revision as of 18:03, 12 January 2025

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Yasuke article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10Auto-archiving period: 10 days

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to Yasuke, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article: You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances) Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. Restrictions placed: 13 November 2024

There have been attempts to recruit editors of specific viewpoints to this article, in a manner that does not comply with Misplaced Pages's policies. Editors are encouraged to use neutral mechanisms for requesting outside input (e.g. a "request for comment", a third opinion or other noticeboard post, or neutral criteria: "pinging all editors who have edited this page in the last 48 hours"). If someone has asked you to provide your opinion here, examine the arguments, not the editors who have made them. Reminder: disputes are resolved by consensus, not by majority vote.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Why is Yasuke described as a samurai, and not a retainer? A1: A request for comment (Talk:Yasuke/Archive 3#RfC: Should the view that Yasuke was a samurai be added to the article) found, based on the reliable sources that exist on the topic, a clear consensus that Yasuke should be represented in the article as a samurai. Misplaced Pages describes things as they are described in reliable sources (see WP:NPOV). Any change to this consensus would likely require significant new sources to be presented. Q2: Why can't I use my own expertise or reading of the primary sources? A2: Per WP:V, etc, content is determined by previously published information rather than editors' beliefs, opinions, experiences, or previously unpublished ideas or information. Even if you are sure something is true, it must have been previously published in a reliable source before you can add it. See also WP:OR, WP:NPOV for more information.

This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Biography This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography Japan: Biography / History Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Japan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Japan-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project, participate in relevant discussions, and see lists of open tasks. Current time in Japan: 03:07, January 13, 2025 (JST, Reiwa 7) (Refresh)JapanWikipedia:WikiProject JapanTemplate:WikiProject JapanJapan-related Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Biography task force. This article is supported by the History task force. WikiProject Japan to do list: edit history watch purge Peer review: None A-class review: None Featured content candidates –  Articles: None Pictures: None Lists: None Good article nominations: Vinland Saga (TV series), Godzilla Minus One Add requested images to articles that need them. Pages for Deletion: Participate in Japan-related deletion discussions. Improve and expand Japan-related stubs. Create some requested articles. Help translate an article from the Japanese Misplaced Pages into English. Assess unassessed articles Africa Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Africa on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AfricaWikipedia:WikiProject AfricaTemplate:WikiProject AfricaAfrica Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened: May 12 to 18, 2024

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: "Assassin's Creed Shadows sparks Misplaced Pages edit war over Yasuke". nichegamer.com. May 15, 2024. Retrieved May 16, 2024. The Misplaced Pages page as it reads now, paints a more ambiguous picture as records of Yasuke appear to be few and far between (the article even says he was "likely" of African origin). However the real excitement is happening in the Talk page for the article. Alexander Moore (May 16, 2024). "People Are Vandalizing the Misplaced Pages Page for Assassin's Creed Shadows Protagonist Yasuke". GameRant. Retrieved May 17, 2024. In the aftermath of Ubisoft's Assassin's Creed: Shadows reveal, disgruntled gamers are flocking to Misplaced Pages to alter the page of one of the game's protagonists. Shinichiro Kageyama (July 22, 2024). "New Ubisoft Game 'Assassin's Creed Shadows:' Why the Criticism?". Japan Forward. Retrieved July 24, 2024. These inaccuracies have been widely accepted as historical facts internationally. And many in Japan have also come to partially believe them. This misunderstanding was further fueled by repeated additions to Yasuke's Misplaced Pages entry since 2015. The edits claim that "Yasuke was a samurai."

Yasuke Status as a Slave

@NutmegCoffeeTea This section is about discussing whether it should be included that Yasuke was a slave, before serving Nobunaga. Please don't bring up the possibility of him being a slave afterwards, because that could disrail the discussion. There are plenty of sources that say he was a slave. Besides the sources cited in the article, most times that Lockley mentions that Yasuke was free at the time he came to Japan, the existence of other theories is acknowledged, also he usually phrases it as "I believe" In his 2017 paper, he lists the idea of Yasuke being a freedman as just one possibility. Tinynanorobots (talk) 11:42, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

If we could have some verbatim quotations from the sources (with references) dealing with the slave issue, that would be helpful. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:57, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Sure, although you have probably read some of them before.

Some have said that Yasuke was a slave, and Lockley acknowledges the theory but disagrees. “Personally I don’t think he was a slave in any sense of the word, I think he was a free actor,” Lockley said. The author speculates that given the circumstances of how the African man arrived at his employment with Valignano, it’s possible that Yasuke was enslaved as a child and taken from Africa to India. There, Lockley said the man could have been a military slave or an indentured soldier, but he “probably got his freedom before meeting Valignano.”

So, even as he disagrees, Lockley mentions that Yasuke being a military slave was a possibility.

It is worth pointing out that henceforth he was no longer a slave, since he received a salary for being in the daimyo's service

Lopez writes this after referring to Yasuke as a slave 3 times.

a mob in Kyoto broke down the door of a Jesuit residence in their eagerness to see an African slave.

an African slave in the retinue of a visiting superior...

There are some other sources that mention that Yasuke was a slave, but aren't clear if that was just when he was a child, or also when he arrived in Japan. What is actually wrong with the disputed sentence? It isn't weasel words, and the last challenge was just, this was removed before. Tinynanorobots (talk) 14:38, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Right, then I see no problem with the proposed text, Some historians believe that he was a slave when he arrived in Japan, only gaining his freedom when serving Nobunaga. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:55, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this is due at all especially with a major source disputing it. EEpic (talk) 04:11, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

What major source is disputing that some historians say Yasuke was a slave upon arrival?

Himaldrmann (talk) 03:50, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Who is "some"? Lockley disputes it Personally I don’t think he was a slave in any sense of the word, I think he was a free actor. EEpic (talk) 17:20, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I am sure that you know it does not really matter, "personally I think" here.

and Why editors here still regard Lockley's statements to be arguable opinions when many of his statements are mere speculations that are based on "if"s and "might have been"s.

One must check on how other Black men served the Portuguese missionaries around the time of 1580, and on what circumstances they become non-slaves (I know the missionaries did not use the term slave which seems like just a "guise") and what changes would that mean when they gain freedom (if such really was a rule) outside their homeland, what could they do really? buy a ticket to their homeland? or they may choose to continue serving the same master?

and of course the Argument is still not be applicable to Yasuke himself, who does not have much record other than being called like "(our) Cafre" in the missionary's letters. 2001:F74:8C00:2200:C2C9:0:0:1002 (talk) 03:33, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

As I see it in context, Lockley lists several options and says which one he leans towards. Compare this to who he talks about Yasuke's place of origin. Lockley wrote in 2017 that there were 4 possibilities. In 2019 he had settled on one, and even said in an interview that it was pretty much certain. However, he has also admitted that the majority opinion is that Yasuke was from Mozambique. Tinynanorobots (talk) 14:13, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Pardon, I may have misunderstood what you meant---I was trying to say that I think that "some historians believe Yasuke was a slave at his coming to Japan" is true, but that "Yasuke was definitely a slave when he arrived at Japan" is disputed. I.e., it is true to say the former ("some dispute whether he was a slave..."), but not the latter ("he was a slave..."); or, at least, not without qualification.

IMO, it seems almost certain that Yasuke was not a slave upon arrival---it wouldn't have been too uncommon, esp. given the company he was traveling with (though not a universal qualm, many Jesuit missionaries were opposed to slavery, as was---IIRC---Valignano); and Yasuke appears to have been a relatively independent agent soon after arrival (with no intervening record of "Padre Valignano freed his slave yesterday" or the like, AFAIK)...

(...but, as the unnamed commenter above notes, I suppose an "IMO" carries little weight, heh.)

Himaldrmann (talk) 08:50, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, I do not oppose if the article writes Yasuke is believed to be from Mozambique.

I am just not sure what exactly what this section is aiming at, whether Lockley insists that Yasuke was from region A or B, such definitive primary source has not been found to pin down the truth. Valigniano once received 3 Cafres in Mozanbique and kept 1 Cafre with him during his travel, and even that is impossible to say that the it really was Yasuke, this is the fact that the discoverer of this source admits and is how little the primary source is left about Yasuke.

That make it nonsense to further-speculate that he was a "free actor" or a "slave", because there is no primary source for Yasuke to prove it, not to mention there may be badly speculated products out there with full of "if so, it might have been" s, I wonder whether they really are qualified as secondary source when sources/citations are not to be verified.

On contrary, there is missionary's letter (Cartas de Evora, definitive prime source) which touches on Cafre (Yasuke ) that missionarys think because Japanese people wanted to see black man eagerly, they can easily make a lot of money if they showcase him. Is this what you think of a treatment of "non-slave but free actor"? 2001:F74:8C00:2200:C2C9:0:0:1002 (talk) 13:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

That's a good point!

(...on the other hand, I'd showcase myself to Japanese people all day, no problem, if some missionaries came up & told me we'd make a lot of money doing it--)

Himaldrmann (talk) 08:27, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we can answer the question, "was Yasuke a slave?". The question is do historians think he is a slave? The answer is yes, some do. It actually appears to be the majority opinion, and I don't understand giving Lockley's personal belief more weight than the opinions of experts more qualified than him. Brockey specializes in Portuguese and Jesuit history. Lockley also said in his 2017 paper that Yasuke probably didn't have much of a choice if he served Nobunaga or not. Lockley himself says that some historians believe that he was a slave, so that he could be cited as a source.

So is it okay to restore Some historians believe that he was a slave when he arrived in Japan, only gaining his freedom when serving Nobunaga. I think that it would go against NPOV not to. Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

It's a footnote that is contested by historians. You seem to have a fixtation with denying that Yasuke was a samurai and calling him a slave. 79.199.139.135 (talk) 04:49, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

even Lockley called him in a youtube video 2021 a slave. You have a different fixation to erase slave history to be able to justify, that he was only a samurai. I can pull out a source from 2009, that calls him a slave too, if you need a RS, btw. the author is already mentioned in this article as a source in a different content.-- ErikWar19 (talk) 02:22, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Please give the source then. Lockley's interview on youtube is not as high quality or recent as his other works where he suggests otherwise. I have not reviewed a lot of the sources in a while though so I am unsure what his most recent view is. Relm (talk) 22:25, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

If you are looking for the source which Lockley states Yasuke was a slave, I will write one for you.

信長と弥助 本能寺を生き延びた黒人侍 2017/1/25

from this book:

https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E4%BF%A1%E9%95%B7%E3%81%A8%E5%BC%A5%E5%8A%A9-%E6%9C%AC%E8%83%BD%E5%AF%BA%E3%82%92%E7%94%9F%E3%81%8D%E5%BB%B6%E3%81%B3%E3%81%9F%E9%BB%92%E4%BA%BA%E4%BE%8D-%E3%83%AD%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC-%E3%83%88%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%82%B9/dp/4778315561

Probably the most comprehensive Yasuke book among the Lockley's and the one the author claims to be academic, which I do not think so.

In the book, there are many moments that the author refers to Yasuke's status as servant, slave, or a contracted worker, well, he says many things.

Basically his view is that the Portuguese missionaries refrained to call their fellows "slaves" but they were essentially slaves (or servants) and Yasuke was the one.

and know that there is a difference in the nuance what one might imagine from the modern word "slave".

I do not want to dig into his book much for I do not believe it is academic, but this line is relatively strong so I will write one.

Firstly in Japanese as the original and then machine translated version.

p78. After refering to Ietada Diary.

「...ありがたいことに ”宣教師が信長に贈った” 黒人であると特定されているため、これが弥助についての記述であること、また弥助が献上品として ”進上された” ことの確証にもなっている。もし特定されていなければ、実はほかにも黒人侍がいたのではないかと考慮しなければならなかっただろう。さらに、ヴァリニャーノの従者だったころの弥助は、自由な身分ではなく、奴隷だったことも裏付けられた。」

the machine translation (After refering to Ietada Diary):

`...thankfully, since the missionary is identified as the black man who was "presented to Nobunaga, this confirms that this is a description of Yasuke, and that Yasuke was "advanced as an offering. If they had been identified, they would have had to wonder if there were actually other black samurai. Furthermore, it was confirmed that Yasuke, when he was Valignano's servant, was not a free thinker, but was a slave.'

end of the translation

I kept it as it is though it may seem a bit awkward to avoid forgery, so test it yourselves with different translations.

and really, where does this lead to? Lockley says here Yasuke was a slave during his service to Valigniano, and perhaps (without any citations here) was gained freedom upon dedication to Nobunaga, to me is nothing more than his speculation. and he might say differently at different page, that is how he is. KeiTakahashi999 (talk) 10:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Luis Frois

Luis Frois' report to Jesuit Society, November 5, 1582:

And the cafre the Visitador gave to Nobunaga on his request, after his death went to the mansion of his heir and fought there for a long time, but when one of Akechi's vassals got close and asked him give up his sword, he handed it over. The vassals went and asked Akechi what to do with the cafre , he said the cafre is like an animal and knows nothing, and he's not Japanese so don't kill him and give him to the church of the Indian padre. With this we were a bit relieved.

sources:

https://digitalis-dsp.uc.pt/bg5/UCBG-VT-18-9-17_18/UCBG-VT-18-9-17_18_item1/P744.html

https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1041119/1/164

Is this account valid to be added to the article in some way, or due to the type of source it is does it need some other type of reference? This clearly shines a different light on Yasuke's status/view among his contemporaries. Tofflenheim (talk) 06:55, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The account is covered in the article. If you are asking if you can put the quote back in, it was removed mainly because of concerns about the translation. The original language is Portuguese, but it was translated from Japanese, and was inconsistent with how it translated words. There are some scholarly sources that discuss it, though. I think we should get a better translation before entering it. Cafre doesn't mean savage. It meant black African, it could refer to free Africans, but it had a connotation of slave. The Portuguese had slaves and servants from other parts of Asia in Japan as well as Africa, so this one way it is known that Yasuke is black and not Indian or Malaysian. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:58, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

That quote is relatively rare that it touches on Yasuke (only mentioned as Cafre) in some length, and should be put back in the page.

I do not think there is translation problem in the Japanese sources for there are at least

2 major translations by professionals I think (I mean PortugueseToJapanese here).

and going from Japanese to English, we can easily verify with various machine translations nowadays.

Plus, problems with translation are not really a excuse not to have in the article, or you can leave the word Cafre as it is if that is the word-in-question with some comments why doing so.

While it may not be difficult to find the english web article that touches on this material, why try finding less professional? One cannot claim that Japanese professional works are wrong in translation(Portuguese to Japanese), it does not mean anything saying so, or it will not be disqualified as the secondary source even some errors are contained (and I do not think there are crucial errors).

Some sources used in this article are Japanese and of Japanese web articles and editors put their own translations which may contain error of course, and how is this different? 2001:F74:8C00:2200:C2C9:0:0:1002 (talk) 04:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I think this is a good content to return to in the article. If you are concerned about the translation content, write in both Portuguese and Japanese. Readers can choose whichever is easier for them to read. If the translation is incorrect, someone who knows Portuguese will probably notice and tell you.

For example, like this article. 140.227.46.9 (talk) 03:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

This is the relevant manual of style: MOS:FOREIGNQUOTE. It also should be applied to the other quotes here. There is no objection to putting the quote in. Although I wonder if it is needed. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:54, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

it should always be pointed out, that the term cafre was not simply used to describe black africans, it was more specific used to describe non-muslim in eastern-africa and was adopted for these eastern african natives/slaves and with a similar view on it, like the N-word in the Atlantic slave trade, it was used in the Asian slave-trade for slaves from this location.

i will just add, that the article should and is stating, that Cafre is a term regularly used to describe slaves in Portuguese in these times, explicit in their colonies...-- ErikWar19 (talk) 02:28, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Several other editors contested this as inaccurate and/or OR - including when it was brought up by you in the past. (1) (2) (3) Relm (talk) 22:35, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think this will improve the article, especially with the poor translation, and because it's already covered. EEpic (talk) 22:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

well, it appears that there is not much argument besides the wording of "Cafre" if I am understanding everyone correctly. The translating the word "Cafre" is treated as "the black man" in other places in the article so that should not cause any problem if it is kept that way.

Please be specific on what you think was poorly translated before, or else I will put the quote and the translation back to the article soon. As written above somewhere, insisting that the secondary source being inaccurate or having poor translation (?) could easily be considered the Original Research I think, so please be at your best to explain your opnion if you have one. KeiTakahashi999 (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Recent edits

Hi @Tofflenheim,

1. This edit removes As a samurai and replaces it with indicating samurai status which is against the RFC consensus: "There exists a consensus to refer to Yasuke as a samurai without qualification"

2. This edit adds Captured which was discussed above and doesn't have talk page consensus on account of it not being related to the duration of his samurai service. Similar comments in respect to edits inserting "slave".

By WP:ONUS can you seek consensus first before making these changes? EEpic (talk) 22:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

indicating samurai status is not a qualification. He is plainly stated as a samurai in the first sentence.

2. "Yasuke was captured by Mitsuhide’s vassals" this is from Thomas Lockley's brittanica article, the same source used as the rest. There is no clear reason why the sentence can only be about the duration of his service. Tofflenheim (talk) 22:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

The status quo of As a samurai is a direct statement. Removing that and replacing it with indicating samurai status is introducing uncertainty which is against the RFC consensus, which says that it should not be qualified or presented as an object of debate.

For this and the captured change, as well as editing that labels him as a slave, you should follow the consensus building process outlined in WP:ONUS and seek consensus prior to reinserting them given that they've been contested by editors. Hope that helps. EEpic (talk) 23:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Let's be clear about the sequence of events.

After the RFC, well before you started editing, the article read as follows: "He was granted a sword, a house and a stipend." No mention of the word samurai at all in this sentence, for months after the RFC.

It wasn't until this diff by Symphony Regalia (now topic banned for adversarial behavior from this article) in Nov, well after RFC, that this "as a samurai" line was added: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yasuke&diff=1255054230&oldid=1255051519

Since then, it was edited, removed, in various ways and SR kept reintroducing it using the same line of argument you are using until he was topic banned at which point you promptly picked up the cause.

This line is not part of the RFC. The RFC line in the first sentence is clearly indicated in a comment when you edit the source.

On top of this, the phrase you are trying to edit, "indicating samurai status" clearly states that he is recognized as a samurai, it does not go against RFC whatsoever and is not a qualifying statement at all.

The other edit about him being captured is not a comment about him being a slaved. It is a direct quote from the Brittanica Article by Lockley, I quote: "Yasuke was captured by Mitsuhide’s vassals, but Mitsuhide saw him and released him, describing him in bestial terms. Mitsuhide suggested that because Yasuke wasn’t Japanese, his life should be spared; he was not expected to perform seppuku as had Nobutada and the other defeated samurai. Yasuke was accompanied by Mitsuhide’s vassals to the Jesuit church, and it is reported that the missionaries gave thanks to God for his deliverance. This is the last confirmed record of Yasuke." This is merely a sequence of events that occurred. Also, I have not mentioned anything about slaving or being a slave in this series of edits. Please be clear / don't muddy the water with other topics which don't have to do with these reverts.

Please wait for consensus for making changes before editing the article with your own POV. If you want to revert, then revert to the status quo before disruptive editor Symphony Regalia added POV.

Hope that helps. Tofflenheim (talk) 00:29, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Just checked and "As a samurai" was present as far back as June in response to the RFC consensus, so it has long been the status quo. EEpic (talk) 03:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

"As a samurai" replaced "as a retainer". You didn't just discover that. It was already mentioned as part of the SPI. "As a samurai" was challenged and arguably had no consensus. That isn't important though. Being status quo isn't an argument against change. Several users support "signifying samurai status". A compromise could be to remove both until consensus is found. Tinynanorobots (talk) 15:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Given that removing "As a samurai" looks to be the intention, that's not a compromise. RFCs are not supposed to be overturned by one or two editors. EEpic (talk) 22:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any form of consensus for removing As a samurai or such wording from the article. Silverseren 22:34, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

It was discussed by Tinynanrobots and Gitz during the arbcom case. Gitz assented to it but I did not think it was clear. It was clarified and assented to by myself (here).

Tinynanrobots and EEpic were topic banned at Arb Enforcement yesterday and can no longer comment - but I will give my attempt at the argument.

"As a samurai, Yasuke recieved x y and z" the first portion 'As a Samurai' implies he recieved these things as part of his service after obtaining that status. Cutting that first clause and adding ", indicating samurai status" to the end is closer to the sources (the phrasing is borrowed largely from Atkins Vera if I recall) who use this to assert that Yasuke was a Samurai.

The only way this could be interpreted as violating the RFC is if 'status' is taken as a qualifier. I fail to understand any other way to phrase the sentence, so to me it looks like:

1. The more rigid interpretation of the RFC which was only ever held to by Symphony Regalia and EEpic who are both topic banned stands and the version SR added is kept. I would still contest that the clause 'as a samurai' does nothing in the sentence but make it more confusing what it is attempting to say. I would be open to rewordings.

2. The sentence is altered to Tinynanorobots suggestion, maybe with a rephrasing of 'samurai status' though I am unsure what that would be.

3. The entire sentence, as its purpose is to describe why Historians assert that Yasuke was a samurai, is a qualifier in and of itself and is moved to the body of the article rather than the lede. Relm (talk) 14:18, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

"qualification" is still confusing word for me, and I'm not sure the word stands for qualifier in English grammar as Tinynanorobots interpreted. Though, I disagree with Symphony Regalia/EEpic version which adds a new nuance that is not mentionted in the original source. I think Tinynanorobots/Tofflenheim version is better one. Although someone may feel inserting "indicating/signifying..." will generate uncertainty of samurai status, this just suggests that the source has such uncetainty originally.

Moving the sentence or "indicating..." phrase whould be the best one personally. From "According to historical accounts," to the end of the lede focuses on the historic records. Inserting historians' assertation there will generate misleadingness. Though, I concern that some people here think "indicating samurai status" is historical fact rather than historians' assertation. NakajKak (talk) 10:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

If it at all suggested uncertainty I would be against the wording. I am arguing that it doesn't, because it is at its core the explanation for the historical interpretation. English Misplaced Pages prioritizes secondary scholarship interpretation of primary sources over primary sources - for good reason. The 'without qualifier' was part of the RFC because of many attempts to subvert the RFC by placing primary sources higher than their secondary scholarship.

'indicating' and 'signifying' are not words that denote lack of certainty, they attribute reasons for an interpretation. Relm (talk) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The rfc consensus phrase "There exists a consensus to refer to Yasuke as a samurai without qualification" is somewhat vague and misleading. It is not fully explained there. EEpic interprets this phrase that the description of samurai status of Yasuke have to be definitive form. Tofflenheim probably interprets this as citation manner; "without qualification" means without authors' attribution, such as "according to (author)" or "(authour) aruges".NakajKak (talk) 12:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

As someone who was apart of that RFC, 'without qualifier' requires some context. Prior to the RFC many people desired a full change from samurai to retainer and/or servant. At the time (and still to now) there were not reliable sources to make such a change. After that conversation stalled, many attempted to situate 'samurai' within a larger qualification of that term to indicate that it was illegitimate. 'Without qualifier' as I always understood the RFC was to avoid people attempting to place asterisks in the lede to the term to otherwise bypass the consensus. Relm (talk) 14:04, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

I also see no consensus for removing as a samurai or the other edits. NutmegCoffeeTea (she/her) (talk) 01:49, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Targetting

Came across this article while going through WP:Contentious topics (found sanctions for a single article topic area interesting). Also noticed disruption regarding this on Wikidata.

After reading through the Arb case and the archives here, it becomes clear that this page has been targetted by the Gamergate and Netto-uyoku campaigns (the latter also promoted through 5channel ). The jawiki page on this and Thomas Lockley having been seriously distorted (the latter now largely rendered as an attack page).

Lockley has been harassed to the point of deleting all his social media accounts (which the jawiki ironically notes) as have many Western scholars looking into the topic, historian Paula R. Curtis notes this in detail here.

Also fringe historians/sources have weighed in on the controversy, and have been picked up by the netto-uyoku. These include , thatparkplace, J. Mark Ramseyer among others.

Issues with the Japanese Misplaced Pages (specifically its connections with 4chan progenitor 2channel) are rife and are noted in our article on it; many a jawiki IP editors connected with this have engaged with our enwiki article looking to promote their extreme views on this and a number of a other related articles.

Just wanted to highlight the targetting of this enwiki article by various groups especially those from the jawiki and the fringe of the Japanese internet. Gotitbro (talk) 14:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2025

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I would like the opportunity to update this to be historically accurate as well as to add present day pop culture references as well as underline the importance of the bushido ideology that influenced yasuke and nobanagas Core values and to further detail their lives together using historical documentation from Japan i am very passionate about history and i look forward to adding to many articles and making Misplaced Pages that much more insightful and helpful to the world i hope to add a detailed account of yasukes battle to this as well thank you for your consideration on this matter i look forward to your reply with eagerness, Count Rainer , The Historical Account, P.S. I cant wait to work with Misplaced Pages. The Historical Account (Count Rainer) (talk) 21:10, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 21:31, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

There are pop culture references already. Bladeandroid (talk) 02:29, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

not a samurai

Yasuke was a slave, not a samurai. He is a fictional folk legend, not a real person either. 2600:100A:B034:9981:E870:2DFF:FE9D:BEB2 (talk) 06:29, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

This has been discussed before. You are supposed to provide reliable sources backing your claims if you want this to be discussed once again. Azuredivay (talk) 06:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Yasuke Image

There has been a silent back and forth over the past month which has carried on in regards to the usage of the suzuri-bako image being used in the lede. I don't recall it ever being discussed and it never stayed long on the page.

I disagree with the usage of the suzuri-bako, unless it is stated in the caption as "a dark-skinned man in Portuguese clothing" rather than presenting it as Yasuke, as our sources do not directly link it to Yasuke.

I think using the Sumo Yurakuzu Byobu depiction would be more apt since we have more sources directly hypothesizing that it is Yasuke being depicted, especially given its relation to Oda Nobunaga and wrestling which make it far more relevant to Yasuke as a subject. If there is opposition to this then I will likely ask for comment from Wikiproject History (here) since I feel that discussion is more aptly about whether it is appropriate to use an image which is not certain to be the subject - however there are several times where statues, coins, tapestries, etc which are only hypothesized to be a particular figure are used. I likewise found nothing in the MOS for images suggesting this would be inappropriate.

• Detail from the Sumō Yūrakuzu Byōbu

Relm (talk) 18:03, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• C-Class biography articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• C-Class Japan-related articles
• Low-importance Japan-related articles
• WikiProject Japan articles
• C-Class Africa articles
• Low-importance Africa articles
• WikiProject Africa articles
• Pages in the Misplaced Pages Top 25 Report
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press