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Revision as of 20:19, 13 February 2022 editTryptofish (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers69,584 edits →Sharon A. Hill revert: gilding the lily← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 18:15, 10 January 2025 edit undoTryptofish (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers69,584 edits →A barnstar for you! (2): noted
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	Retired, <s>and not coming back</s>.		Retired, <s>and not coming back</s>.
	I do want to say thank you for the kind words to the editors who posted here. <s>But this is permanent.</s> It makes no sense to donate volunteer time and effort if I am going to be treated with disrespect.--] (]) 22:36, 8 January 2020 (UTC)		I do want to say thank you for the kind words to the editors who posted here. <s>But this is permanent.</s> It makes no sense to donate volunteer time and effort if I am going to be treated with disrespect.--] (]) 22:36, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
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	== Very sorry ==		== Very sorry ==
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	:{{ping|Barkeep49}} Thank you, sincerely, for that message, which I appreciate very much. I feel that I should give you a response, but with the caveat that I do not want it to precipitate a flurry of comments from other editors who want to take issue with anything that I say. First, it is entirely correct that I have been questioning whether or not to continue here for quite a few months now, starting around the time that MPants had his conflict and continuing through what happened to Ritchie (who I'm happy to see has returned) and through the Fram fiasco. That all happened before the present situation. But I do not see it as me being "close to the breaking point". It was an entirely rational decision on my part, and it's not like I owe Misplaced Pages anything or need to satisfy any sort of criterion in order to decide to stop being an active editor. I made a comparison of the pluses and minuses just after the comment you made about AE, and concluded that this had become a net negative. And I'm quite enjoying having a couple of hours each day being freed up that I am spending on other things, quite productively.		:{{ping|Barkeep49}} Thank you, sincerely, for that message, which I appreciate very much. I feel that I should give you a response, but with the caveat that I do not want it to precipitate a flurry of comments from other editors who want to take issue with anything that I say. First, it is entirely correct that I have been questioning whether or not to continue here for quite a few months now, starting around the time that MPants had his conflict and continuing through what happened to Ritchie (who I'm happy to see has returned) and through the Fram fiasco. That all happened before the present situation. But I do not see it as me being "close to the breaking point". It was an entirely rational decision on my part, and it's not like I owe Misplaced Pages anything or need to satisfy any sort of criterion in order to decide to stop being an active editor. I made a comparison of the pluses and minuses just after the comment you made about AE, and concluded that this had become a net negative. And I'm quite enjoying having a couple of hours each day being freed up that I am spending on other things, quite productively.
	:But, since you came here to comment, I'm going to give you two specific points of feedback, as to what went wrong. (And that will also spell it out for other editors who have been asking me what happened.) ''First'', I had told you very clearly on your talk page that I would be able to refute each of the accusations that were made against me, but that my doing so would necessarily be lengthy. I did not want to do that unilaterally, because I knew it would trigger a rebuttal to my rebuttal, which would have made things worse instead of better. So instead I told you clearly that you should ask me for my side before reaching any conclusions in your role as an admin. But you expressly did not do that, and were even somewhat dismissive about it. The ''second'' point is that you expressed a clear, and incorrect, opinion as to what should happen if the AE complaint against me had been followed through on, and you most certainly did not (as portrayed in other comments above) state it as being a neutral place where both sides would be able to work out their differences. And that, in turn, would have set up a predetermined outcome against me if the other editor had chosen to follow through. That's what I think, so take it or leave it. And please understand that I do '''not''' want anyone to treat what I said as a reason for de-adminning. God no! It's just honest feedback, in case it helps in the future, and nothing more.		:But, since you came here to comment, I'm going to give you two specific points of feedback, as to what went wrong. (And that will also spell it out for other editors who have been asking me what happened.) ''First'', I had told you very clearly on your talk page that I would be able to refute each of the accusations that were made against me, but that my doing so would necessarily be lengthy. I did not want to do that unilaterally, because I knew it would trigger a rebuttal to my rebuttal, which would have made things worse instead of better. So instead I told you clearly that you should ask me for my side before reaching any conclusions in your role as an admin. But you expressly did not do that, and were even somewhat dismissive about it. The ''second'' point is that you expressed a clear, and incorrect, opinion as to what should happen if the AE complaint against me had been followed through on, and you most certainly did not (as portrayed in other comments above) state it as being a neutral place where both sides would be able to work out their differences. And that, in turn, would have set up a predetermined outcome against me if the other editor had chosen to follow through. That's what I think, so take it or leave it. And please understand that I do '''not''' want anyone to treat what I said as a reason for de-adminning. God no! It's just honest feedback, in case it helps in the future, and nothing more.
	:And the bottom line to all that is that I'm not seeing any reason for me to volunteer to subject myself to that kind of experience. I continue to watch with interest what is happening with that dispute, but I'm not going to be involved with it in any way. I'm also watching an ArbCom case that has implications for what bothers me about what happened to MPants.<ref>I told you so: .</ref> And who knows, maybe the time will come when I will think to myself "I told you so" about both of those things.<ref>This turned out to be somewhat less black-and-white, glass half-full or glass half-empty. To some extent, the draft RfC was improved upon after I left, fixing ''some'' of the things that I was warning about. And I feel the need to say, after some distance, that I don't like the way that I was coming across, that it really did represent a decline in my frame of mind, and is all the more reason for me to continue to be away. (By the way, I'm really enjoying the free time it opened up!) But still, fundamentally, I told you so. In the RfC close, , some of the easy questions ''did'' get answered. But I clearly remember that the community's consensus for having the RfC in the first place grew out of {{tq|a fundamental and unresolved dispute between committed editors on the issue of when to include drug pricing}}: . And in the close of the RfC: {{tq|There is no consensus on whether drug prices should be included in articles at all... Drugs which fall into the grey area between these extremes should be discussed on a case-by-case basis.}} So the "extremes" are settled. But editors will be back to arguing "case-by-case" for everything else. This won't be the end of the dispute. But: not my problem any more.</ref> --] (]) 22:48, 22 January 2020 (UTC)		:And the bottom line to all that is that I'm not seeing any reason for me to volunteer to subject myself to that kind of experience. I continue to watch with interest what is happening with that dispute, but I'm not going to be involved with it in any way. I'm also watching an ArbCom case that has implications for what bothers me about what happened to MPants.<ref>I told you so: .</ref> And who knows, maybe the time will come when I will think to myself "I told you so" about both of those things.<ref>This turned out to be somewhat less black-and-white, glass half-full or glass half-empty. To some extent, the draft RfC was improved upon after I left, fixing ''some'' of the things that I was warning about. And I feel the need to say, after some distance, that I don't like the way that I was coming across, that it really did represent a decline in my frame of mind, and is all the more reason for me to continue to be away. (By the way, I'm really enjoying the free time it opened up!) But still, fundamentally, I told you so. In the RfC close, , some of the easy questions ''did'' get answered. But I clearly remember that the community's consensus for having the RfC in the first place grew out of {{tq|a fundamental and unresolved dispute between committed editors on the issue of when to include drug pricing}}: . And in the close of the RfC: {{tq|There is no consensus on whether drug prices should be included in articles at all... Drugs which fall into the grey area between these extremes should be discussed on a case-by-case basis.}} So the "extremes" are settled. But editors will be back to arguing "case-by-case" for everything else. This won't be the end of the dispute. But: not my problem any more.</ref><ref>Well, it took a long time, but I feel that this: vindicates what I believed all those years ago. And all the snarling directed at me here: sure looks different today.</ref> --] (]) 22:48, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
	::::PS. I just remembered a third point. Although you made one comment to me about redacting one thing that I had said, you never really told me that you had any broader concerns. If you had, I would have listened. --] (]) 23:54, 22 January 2020 (UTC)		::::PS. I just remembered a third point. Although you made one comment to me about redacting one thing that I had said, you never really told me that you had any broader concerns. If you had, I would have listened. --] (]) 23:54, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
	::Thanks for the feedback. FWIW I did know you could produce diffs if requested and I did not presume what the outcome of an AE filing would be. In the end I didn't feel comfortable with levying any formal sanctions against you and choose not to. I wish I had made that point clearer at the time. Anyhow I really do appreciate the feedback and will definitely return here after I've processed it a bit more to read again and further consider how I can improve as an editor and sysop. Best, 22:53, 22 January 2020 (UTC)		::Thanks for the feedback. FWIW I did know you could produce diffs if requested and I did not presume what the outcome of an AE filing would be. In the end I didn't feel comfortable with levying any formal sanctions against you and choose not to. I wish I had made that point clearer at the time. Anyhow I really do appreciate the feedback and will definitely return here after I've processed it a bit more to read again and further consider how I can improve as an editor and sysop. Best, 22:53, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
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	:::::{{like}} --] (]) 21:44, 27 January 2020 (UTC)		:::::{{like}} --] (]) 21:44, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
			== A barnstar for you! (9)==
	== Precious anniversary ==
	{{User QAIbox
	| title = Precious
	| image = Cornflower blue Yogo sapphire.jpg
	| image_upright = 0.5
	| bold = ]
	}}
	Bad timing, it seems. Tryptofish, I hope I always treated you with respect, you and others. You and others, if you feel I don't, please tell ''me''. I decided to stay in this mess in 2012, then because I felt I'd not do those a favour who would just have liked that, and still today because I came to believe that I can make this mess a bit less messy. So could you, but enjoy a break if that's best for you. I ], including ] and Brian, with thanks for what they did. Thank you for what you did! --] (]) 10:27, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
			{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
	== Last call ==
			|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Writer's Barnstar'''
			|-
			|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Great work on ]. I love the lighthearted topic and images. I only just saw the article today, so I'm a couple years behind. ] (]) 10:10, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
			|}
			:Thanks. This pick-me-up for my wiki-mood came at just the right time. Yes, when I learned of Nichols, I knew that this would be a worthy article (maybe not quite as shocking as ], but a woman who needed to be changed from red to blue, for sure). Since I started it, another editor messed up a bit of sourcing, but it's still a good read. --] (]) 18:23, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
			:: is truly funny. I remember crushing a berry basket as a kid and being fascinated by the sound. ] (]) 23:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
			:::Yes. There's something about sound effects that can bring out the inner child in all of us. --] (]) 14:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
			== A fan of the fish ==
	] will close soon. I know you've been off wiki for a while, but you spent a lot of time and effort in the early phases, and I didn't want you to miss your chance to influence the outcome, too.
			Just a quick reminder incase you didn't know. You are special and I'm definitely a fan. A fan of your contributions to the encyclopedia and the community. I'm glad I can consider you a wiki(fish)friend. --]] 17:57, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
	IMO the RFC has gone remarkably well and has been much more pleasant than the discussions leading up to it. There is a lot of good information in the comments. ] (]) 20:01, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
			:And I, of course, am a fan of the wolf. Thanks so much for the kind words! --] (]) 19:54, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
			::And thank you, kind fish, for your words. I do cherish them like a favorite book by a warm fire on an artic winter's day. They are sunshine to my soul. --]] 16:31, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
			:::{{(:}} --] (]) 18:18, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
			== Proxying ==
	== Sorry for bothering you, but... ==
			Thanks for your comments at the article. Obviously off-site stuff gets tricky, so I'm not going to provide any additional info on where exactly it was (and you don't provide email contact, so no one can claim I'm sharing it with you privately). I'll say though that I check in on off-wiki sites sometimes just to keep tabs on stalking issues because of my involvement in the GMO topic here, which used to be much worse. Unfortunately, I've known colleagues who had to have police involved due to internet stalking related to GMOs as well as some climate scientist friends who got denialist stalkers (not related to Wiki at least), so that stuff hits home a bit.
	<div style="border:2px solid #90C0FF; background:#F0F0FF; width:99%; padding:4px">
	]
	:::::'''New Page Patrol needs experienced volunteers'''
	::::* ] is currently struggling to keep up with the influx of new articles. We could use a few extra hands on deck if you think you can help.
	::::* Reviewing/patrolling a page doesn't take much time but <u>it requires a good understanding of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines</u>; Misplaced Pages needs experienced users to perform this task and there are precious few with the appropriate skills. Even a couple reviews a day can make a huge difference.
	::::* If you would like to join the project and help out, please see the ] and review our ]. You can apply for the user-right ''']'''. — '''''<small>] <sup>(])</sup><small><small><sub>(]</sub></small></small></small>''''' 20:19, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
	</div>
			Just checking in on advice here mostly though. I'm more in the camp that it's probably better not to give the user attention, but do you think emailing ArbCom the only realistic next avenue here for what would have to be private evidence? That's not to say I'm intent on doing that at this moment, but I kind of struck me that it didn't seem like there was an obvious step below that than since ANI, etc. would be ruled out. Thanks. ] (]) 03:06, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
	== Arbitration case opened ==
			:My basic reaction is to do nothing unless the problem happens again. Let me say, delicately, that there are reasons that I avoid saying anything about the user we are probably both thinking of, so that may be a reason that I'm, personally, disinclined to act. I am satisfied that the editor who made the edit here did so in good faith, and as you know, I subsequently made an edit to change the content to something that is unlikely to be like the requested proxy, while also making our content up to date as it should be. Of course, if you really want to report it, emailing ArbCom is the way to go, and you should not post about it at any of our drama boards. But I really don't see much upside to acting on this, unless it keeps happening.
	In 2018, you offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has now accepted that request for arbitration, and an arbitration case has been opened at ]. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at ]. Please add your evidence by March 23, 2020, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, ]. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration.
			:As for that risk of stalking by activists, I hear you. I know editors who have had that happen, too. --] (]) 14:58, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
			::Thanks, and yeah, I'd be more prone to wait until something like that happens again too, though it is a concern of it continuing when there's been off-site escalation to the point it resulted in something obvious like this. We'll see what happens going forward, but I don't have high expectations given what I've seen. ] (]) 16:30, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
			== Health scare ==
	All content, links, and diffs from the ] and the ] are being read into the evidence for this case.
			I haven't been commenting on it onsite, but I've been dealing with some significant health issues, centering on ] ]. More on that another time. But today, I developed swelling in my left leg, and my primary care doctor was concerned that it might be ], which could be a matter of life and death. I've just gotten home from spending several hours in the hospital, where they were able to determine that it was only ], which turns out to be no big deal. So it turned out to be quite a scare, but with a happy ending. --] (]) 00:35, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
	The secondary mailing list is in use for this case: arbcom-en-b@wikimedia.org
			:Glad to hear you are OK, but welcome to the DVT club. Have you had a chance to review the membership materials? ] (]) 01:37, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
			:::Does that mean that you had DVT? --] (]) 16:47, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
			::::I have hereditary thrombophilia, which means I have an increased risk for blood clots, and many of the people in my extended family tree have died of clots, so it's an expected outcome that I am aware of in my everyday life. I have a healthy diet and I live an active life; I run three times a week and I walk a lot in addition to running. I have had concerning symptoms in the past, such as paresthesia, and warm patches on my arms or legs, but it hasn't posed a problem. I monitor most of my vitals on a daily basis, maintain a healthy blood pressure and weight, and basically take good care of myself. Although my politics are somewhat different, my approach to medicine (as an amateur hypochondriac) is almost identical to that of ]. If you haven't read his book ''Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity'' (2023), you really should. It's a somewhat easy read and shouldn't take you more than a day or two. ] (]) 19:59, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
			:::::Oh, wow, thanks for sharing that. I'm glad you do all those things to take good care of yourself. I try to do that too, and my vitals/blood pressure are very good for someone my age. In my case, the clot was caused by an adverse reaction to a steroid injection I had gotten for the radiculopathy, go figure. --] (]) 20:20, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
			::::::That makes sense. Speaking of adverse reactions and clotting, ] has been in the news a lot for the last several months. See , and . ] deleted this information from the Misplaced Pages article in June. ] (]) 20:26, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::I use ] instead of sugar, and you just sent me on a very hurried look to make sure that it isn't erythritol (it isn't), whew. I agree with that revert by the way, per ]. --] (]) 20:33, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::In the US, products are not required to list erythritol on the label because it is classified by the ] as ], which means long-term safety studies aren't needed. But as of 2023, researchers are calling for long-term safety studies on erythritol. But such studies are not required by the FDA because erythritol is exempt as GRAS. This is pretzel logic. This reminds me of other well-known pretzel logic by the FDA, such as their claim that cannabis has no federally approved medical use for treatment in the US. Meanwhile, the FDA continues to approve cannabis-derived or synthetic cannabis-related medical products. It's really hard to take these ], regulatory agencies seriously. ] (]) 22:52, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::::Stepping out of my editor role, and speaking as I am in real life, I very much share a lot of what you just said about the pretzel logic of the US health care system. There's an irony that the big industry carve-out regarding food safety extends to the big industry centered around health foods and herbal additives, which pretends to be just mom and pop but is anything but. As someone who has seen US biomedical science from the inside, I can tell you that, as insidious as the influence of money is, there is also an incredible amount of resistance to new ideas in the medical and science communities. Even though I agree with the concept that health care should not include stuff that hasn't been proven to be safe and effective, when it comes to cannabis and other ] drugs, the slowness of progress stinks in my opinion.
			:::::::::I mentioned at the top that I've been dealing all summer with radiculopathy. In practice, that means a big part of it is pain control. I've had a very painful (pun intended) learning experience about how important it has been for me to be my own best advocate in getting the health care that I need. I have the education, communication skills, and personality to assert myself when I need more medicine, but I know that there must be many people who have the diagnosis that I have, or much worse, who cannot advocate for themselves, and that's appalling. I used to teach my students that no person should ever have to wish for death because they aren't getting enough medicine and cannot stand the pain. This summer, I've experienced what it feels like. I spent decades as a researcher into how the opioid drugs work, and I now know those drugs up close and personal. --] (]) 17:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::I won't belabor the point, other than to say I'm happy you are doing better (...and that dentistry should be fully integrated back into medicine and healthcare delivery). {{=)}} ] (]) 21:23, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::::::{{=D}} --] (]) 22:53, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::{{further|User talk:Viriditas#Moving discussion here}}
			::Pleased to learn it’s nothing too serious. Take care. ] (]) 06:39, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
			:::Thanks, both of you. Never before have I been so glad to be told that I'm just superficial. --] (]) 16:47, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
			::::Sorry to ] of your health issues, Trypto. I do wish you all the very best. At least it's not ]? Ah yes, ].... ] ] (]) 20:56, 1 October 2023 (UTC) <small></small>
			:Good luck with your progress—it's never fun to deal with health problems. ] (]) 19:39, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
			::Thanks Martin and Isaac! --] (]) 21:11, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
			:You are anything but superficial but I too am glad for the diagnosis. Tryp, you are one of most valued friends here and I don't say that lightly. Just take care of yourself, please. I had to learn this the hard way. I was always giving and rarely would receive anything in return. I would emotionally invest in others even at my own expense. I still do to a degree but I was forced to focus on myself when my health become a serious issue. I have been focusing more on myself, if only a little. Just, please, do take care. Need you around to make my day brighter. --]] 17:37, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
			::Thanks so much! That's good advice. --] (]) 18:56, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
			:::Is is. Very sorry to hear this. Put yourself first for a while. I know how hard that is. ] ] 19:03, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
			::::Thanks, Doug. (Much as I think you have been doing, I'm doing some editing here, but picking and choosing what I will and what I will not spend time and energy on.) --] (]) 19:05, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
			===Update===
	For the Arbitration Committee, ] (]) 17:09, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
			As it happens, I ''did'' become a card-carrying member of the DVT club, but I'm happy to say that, today, I got kicked out of it. Shortly after what I talked about above, my doctors decided I should have a follow-up ultrasound of my leg, just to be sure. Unfortunately, it revealed that my superficial vein thrombosis had turned into deep vein thrombosis, and I've been dealing with that for the past ~six weeks. I've been taking ], as a blood-thinner. Today, I had another ultrasound, and it showed that the DVT was cleared up and gone. Which is a nice reason for me to be thankful on Thanksgiving.
			Because I am done with the blood thinner, that makes it safe for me to have spinal cord surgery, to deal with, once and for all, the lumbar radiculopathy. My surgery is scheduled for Dec. 12. I'm actually happy about doing it, even though it's definitely major surgery, because it will mean an end to the pain. I'll post more about that, closer to the time. --] (]) 01:26, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
	== SPI ==
			:Wishing you a quick and pain-free recovery on your health journey. It's a journey we will all have to make in our own way, so we are all on this road together. ] (]) 20:32, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
	On your question about socks (not a huge fan of multi-editor discussions on someone's talk page), there was Wouldn't seem like a match based on some edits anyways, but I know I'd come down like a hammer on them if that actually was the case. I can't think of anything that would really make me say sockpuppet for sure rather than new editor quirks overlapping, but if I do, you don't need to worry about it and let others do that. Enjoy your mental health and avoiding these sorts of things.
			==question==
	Glad to be done with workshop comments on that related issue. Lots of text on my part unfortunately, but I also had to deal so much on both sides (Jytdog issues and other editor issues) that I felt the need to speak up. You were very justified too (and I agree on harsh restrictions if they come back). In the end, they exhausted community support on their legitimate behavior issues despite the other messes that I would hope they know they're entirely on their own and not getting help on improving if they do come back. I gave up on that awhile ago and was mostly there for my own concerns, despite claims, rather than Jytdog coming back. At least it's kind of nice to say I'm not going to worry about that anymore after airing that. ] (]) 00:33, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
			Typtofish we have a RfC ] that needs an uninvolved editor to close, as its been up for some time, I realize you may be busy, should you have the time to take a look I would be in your debt, Ozzie--] (]) 12:48, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
			:I'm going through a tough patch, and that looks like a lot of aggravation. I suggest you try ]. --] (]) 17:37, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
			::ok (I just read the above post, I apologize... I wasn't aware, I wish you the best and fastest recovery possible, Ozzie)--] (]) 18:03, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
			:::No need to apologize. Thanks, Ozzie. --] (]) 22:17, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
			== Not much may come of it, but ==
	:Although I can't really say that I exactly "enjoy" my mental health, I do thank you for giving the sock issue some thought. (And per the typo at the workshop page, I also "command" you for all the effort you have put into this, wink, wink.) At this point, I think I'm ready to go back to being gone, with a sigh of relief. BTW, I've gotten interested in theoretical physics, of all things, and have been teaching it to myself, which I'm actually enjoying (and Misplaced Pages's pages on the associated mathematics are abysmal). --] (]) 19:52, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
	:PS, for anyone wondering, we are talking about this: . --] (]) 20:11, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
	::I'll clarify then and say enjoy what not having to worry about these things can do for your mental health. I took enough of a break at least that I'm kind of excited to get back into some bug editing now. I'll agree that some math pages are horrible; I have some on my to-do list for statistical analyses I have some good background on, but I kind of dread starting in on them. That's a broader issue than just Misplaced Pages when it comes to literature in that field though. There are some papers I kind of want to ask the author(s) if they ''didn't'' want people to use their statistical method when they wrote the paper. ] (]) 21:36, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
	:::I noticed that you corrected the link in your opening comment, and that makes a lot more sense to me. ''Obviously'', it wasn't Jytdog, but I had not known about there having been that kind of overlap. Makes me think all the more that there is a "good-hand, bad-hand" thing going on here, but... not my problem. --] (]) 21:31, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
	::::Was just reminded of this, and while I couldn't pin anything down, I agree there's some mannerism that seems familiar. Hopefully it's just deju vu on both our parts, so I'm just going to write it off as that since I'm also trying to avoid any "new" drama.
	::::Also, apologies for "involving" you at AN. I guess technically you were already being involved before I chimed in, but I almost didn't ping you just to respect your retirement. Thanks for your comments on civility too. Even my patience has been wearing thin in that realm, especially when someone tried to a pull a "maybe they're acting that way because of COVID-19". That sure flies in the face of those of us who don't act uncivil even though we've lost people to it. Either way, I hope all is well. Critters are still crittering over here, and that's taking up most of my time nowadays. ] (]) 01:17, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
	:::::About the SPI, I've come to the conclusion (based on what I've seen since then) that the resemblance was just a remarkable coincidence, not socking.
	:::::About AN, no worries, and thank you for what you have said there. I really ''had'' intended to stay out, out of consideration for the 1-way IBAN making it impossible for them to respond to me. But I got in because of my own free will, and it was the garbage being spewed by some other editors that I felt the need to counteract.
	:::::I'm doing fine in the real world. I just realized from your comment here that you might have lost someone to COVID-19. If so, I am very, very sorry. --] (]) 18:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
			Just wanted to tell you I posted ]. ] (]) 08:58, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
	== If you're watching... ==
			:Thanks for doing that, and thanks for letting me know. I'll be watching what happens. By the way, I'm OK with the result at the AfD, although I think that the closing statement suffered from virtue signaling. --] (]) 15:19, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
			== Just in case you haven’t seen it ==
	I had you in mind when I added . ] <sub>]</sub> ] 17:44, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
	:That's so nice, thanks so much! I'm watching, briefly, but I '''really''' don't want to post anything unless someone else initiates something where I feel it fitting for me to reply. Just fyi, I watched ''Chasing Corals'' per your recommendation (see, I ''am'' watching!), and was deeply moved by it. And I liked that article about Misplaced Pages (except for where they misnamed NPOV, and where they interviewed that oddball grandmother{{fbdb}}). --] (]) 20:44, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
	::The trick is being a grandparent and not looking the part but then, one has to wonder who set the bar on looks? <sup>No, not that kind of ], although it may help.</sup> ] <sub>]</sub> ] 21:07, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
			]. He really should have pinged you, but then he didn’t ping me either, just linked to my block of him. ] ] 20:43, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
	== ] opened ==
			:Oh, I definitely saw it, thanks. I'm not going to comment about it there, given that editors are discouraged from going back and forth at one another. I'm going to wait and see what the case scope is, and who the parties are (including whether or not I'm one), but I have all the evidence that I expect to need, already lined up in my mind. --] (]) 20:47, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
			== RIP {{u|Looie496}} ==
	You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at ]. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at ]. '''Please add your evidence by April 21, 2020, which is when the evidence phase closes.''' You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, ]. For a guide to the arbitration process, see ]. For the Arbitration Committee, ] 🎷 <sup>'']'' &#124; '']''</sup> 20:49, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
			I just found out. --] (]) 21:44, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
	== ] ==
			== ]: Case opened ==
	Hi Tryptofish - just to let you know that the above made FL yesterday. It wouldn’t have but for your intervention, for which I am hugely grateful. I hope you are keeping safe and well in these difficult times and that you are enjoying doing what you are doing. Ever. ] (]) 21:26, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
			Hello {{u|Tryptofish}},
	== Today's Wikipedian 10 years ago ==
	{{User QAIbox
	| title = Awesome
	| image = Cscr-featured.svg
	| image_upright = 0.35
	| bold = ]
	}}
	--] (]) 07:17, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
	{{clear}}
			You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at ]. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at ]. '''Please add your evidence by November 8, 2023, which is when the evidence phase closes.''' For a guide to the arbitration process, see ].
	== I apologize for the multiple pings==
	I realized after I left my first comment where I did, that it really applied equally elsewhere, so I repeated the header in those two places, which, of course, resulted in the multiple pings. I wasn't trying to hurry a response. Respond or not as and when you like ;-) ] ] 17:01, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
	:Thanks, Paul, no worries! And that's very kind of you to say that. I ''have'' responded, in detail, and it took me a long time to compose it.
	:For those playing along at home, this is about the ArbCom Medicine case, that grows out of the same problems that led me to, unsuccessfully, retire. I've '''temporarily''' come back in order to try to make that case come out right. I'm also finding that doing so has been terribly unpleasant for me, and I'm very eager to be done with it. In just a few hours, the workshop phase is going to close, and I'm looking forward to it.
	:And, Paul, I've been quietly looking in at other things here, including, from time to time, the talk page of my little friend EEng, and I've seen what you have told him about civility, and ''you'' are right! --] (]) 17:21, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
	::I'm very sorry about your retirement, and other problems. As for EEng, he seems one well worth saving, so I've become his personal scold and Socratic gadfly, we'll see. ] ] 20:26, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
	:::Thanks, and I'm actually quite enjoying having more free time (except for during this case). Perhaps EEng would respond to a spanking. --] (]) 20:28, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
	:The workshop has closed, and now (hopefully) I'm going back to not being here. --] (]) 00:32, 12 May 2020 (UTC)		For the Arbitration Committee,<br>] (]) 01:09, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
	== What is going on? ==		== A quick note on recent events ==
			Hey, hope you're doing well despite all "teh dramaz" and the sorry state of the world at large, and to the extent that my actions are collaterally inflicting a smoke cloud on the proceedings or reflecting on yourself, I apologize, because I do legitimately believe that the article needs a better title and not that I'm trying to tendentiously curtail it to tell a different story, and I don't want any of my bad acts to blow up in your face as they are. IMHO, the early Zionists were pretty racist and even some of the modern ones - I firmly believe that. Ironically, I'm a leftist, and my sympathies lie very much with the Palestinian refugees, as a descendant of Jewish refugees (just not Hamas), I oppose colonialism and Netanyahu and the settlers encroaching on the West Bank (in case our mutual friends on that side are reading this). But I also think the recent actions by Hamas are egregious crimes against humanity, and I don't believe Israel is engaging in genocide in any of the accepted meanings of that (but I would accept apartheid). Anyway, I don't think we chat too much or even agree that much usually, which is why the present scenario has a certain dark comic aspect to it, ''n'est-ce pas''? Anyway, I was hoping to leave you a note on the following things, 1) I hope you don't take a "chilling effect" from the treatment you encountered at the last AE. One of the reasons I felt compelled to file this was because of the way that one ended up, and how unequivocal it is that some actors are practicing extreme ownership and hostility. Personally, I don't ever see an excuse or justification for certain hostile activities. 2) I know the person who made that apparently-antisemitic comment last time did it by accident. I'm sure they didn't really apologize suitably for it. It's a blind spot, but I know they didn't mean that. 3) Maybe you want me to close my RM so a fresh one can be reopened considering all that has transpired and archive the last 2 talk page topics. Hopefully, moving forward will be a better tenor. 4) Regarding reply threading, I use the reply tool on desktop, but I think it doesn't work well for people who read on mobile. An unrelated problem worth thinking about. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 15:07, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
	The evidence does not match the remedy. See ]. Since you know about the case can you tell me what is going on? I had a minor role in pricing. ] (]) 18:01, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
			:Thanks for the thoughtful message. For (1), I'm disappointed in the AE admins, but I've been around so many Misplaced Pages disputes that I'm quite comfortable with how these things work. (2) I agree, and I don't hold a grudge about it. I just mentioned it at AE to illustrate how toxic the dispute is. (3) I've already replied about that, at the talk page. (4) You weren't the offender about that threading, which is a very minor issue in the context of everything else.
	:I'm really not sure what to tell you. I think that there was a sense that you had a lot of sanctions before, and they felt the need to do something serious, and the topic was simply the topic at hand. But I don't make the decisions. Perhaps {{u|Barkeep49}} could explain it better than I can. --] (]) 18:53, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
			:I don't want to discuss ARBPIA issues here, or comment about my own personal opinions, which aren't relevant anyway. I'll just say that what's happening in the real world is very tragic, and I wish for peace for everyone. As for what happens onsite, you know that I don't always agree with you on content issues, but I want you to know that I do appreciate, very much, how you remain civil and how you try hard to be constructive amid these discussions. I don't otherwise edit in that topic area, and I probably should have taken it off my watchlist a long time ago, but for better or worse it pisses me off to see bad faith actors drive reasonable editors out of a topic area, and I can be very stubborn. My guess is that the RM will end in no consensus, and that I'll probably let things drop after that. --] (]) 15:19, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
	::I think ArbCom is best positioned to speak for itself and don't think I am able to say more about what is going on than has already been said. Best, ] (]) 19:24, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
			::OK, thank you. Best wishes. If you ever want to discuss anything else, you know where to find me. And I wasn't trying to solicit opinions from you, just volunteering them in the interest of transparency. I know you know that too. I'm putting stuff out in the open to clear the air. Thanks for playing along. Anything else, let me know. Cheers. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 15:21, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
			:::All good, thanks. --] (]) 15:23, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
			==]==
	== Hello ==
			As in the , you should remember the result, a merger. The poll has remained without the discussion closure marker. It should have been closed in 2010 with the {{tl|discussion-top}} and {{tl|discussion-bottom}} to indicate the talk section was completed as a merger. The merger was carried out by SlimVirgin in 2010 ; so whatever you think about the source article, ], it isn't a joke edit to indicate that the discussion is over (over a decade ago), and the merger was carried out (over a decade ago). -- ] (]) 03:11, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
			:OK, my mistake, and I see you already reverted it back, so it's corrected. Thanks for correcting me. --] (]) 16:48, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
			== regarding fasting advocates cat ==
	Tryptofish, it was good to see your input today. I know that you remain fed up with incivility here, but I just want to mention that you are missed and that all your past contributions are appreciated. I am hoping that you will check in from time to time. Be well. ] ] 01:42, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
	:Thanks for the kind words, I really appreciate that. I ''do'' look in pretty regularly, out of curiosity, and it's kind of sad how frequently a new ''drahmah'' pops up just as the previous one ends. But I'm very much withholding any content contributions. --] (]) 18:17, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
			Hi Tryptofish, I understand why you reverted my edit (I didn't see the note before), and I won't contest it. However, there are a number of medical doctors who advocate fasting listed here who don't belong in either the pseudoscientific category or the researchers category (usually they are well versed in the work of researchers and have the scientific background to support their interest). So I'm going to create another category for this specific group of doctors. I'm thinking of Medical Doctors who advocate fasting (or support fasting). It's long but specific. Then I will move the MDs there. Let me know what you think.-] (]) 23:55, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
	== What the critics are saying ==
			:P.S. I'm thinking that otherwise it's potentially a ] issue.-] (]) 23:56, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
			::Thanks for understanding. (For watchers, we're talking about .) I'm going to ping {{u|Psychologist Guy}}, who created the category and pays close attention to the subject area. Basically, I agree with that approach. The only concern that I can think of is whether an MD who is not a researcher but who makes public pronouncements about the medical benefits of fasting is really not engaging in pseudoscience. There's a difference between reducing caloric intake and actually fasting. I appreciate the BLP issue, but if there is solid sourcing it's not necessarily a BLP violation. I'll also welcome any other of my talk page participants to offer their takes on this question. --] (]) 00:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::Got it. MDs read research on many subjects and apply it to to their clinical work. For example, if an MD recommends a vegetarian diet because the research indicates that it is healthy, is that pseudoscience? I appreciate that this is a subject open to debate, so perhaps what I will do is take the cat off of MDs in general which basically will solve the problem.-] (]) 00:18, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::There are MDs who make public recommendations when it's not what the research indicates. --] (]) 00:21, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::::True, but again this is the case in many areas related to health, so it feels a little like ] if we apply this issue to one area of health and not another. Again I think we run into ] here. Though I get the basic issue that is being addressed.-] (]) 00:25, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::::It's not OR if there are reliable secondary sources that say that a particular MD is a quack. Since you've started off by asking me, I'd be more comfortable if you would wait and see if anyone else replies, before taking action with recategorization. I'm not that familiar with the topic area. --] (]) 00:31, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::Sure, that's fine. Or we can move this to the cat talk page. -] (]) 00:34, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::::I almost reverted the category, but since a discussion is taking place will address it here. Fasting, either a daily fast or a longer fast, is certainly not pseudoscience. I've known fasters, and those who advocate fasting, and since 1988 have done a 14-17 hour daily fast, etc. Highly recommended. I started doing that immediately upon learning something which may or may not be accurate (Swami Satchidananda wrote that a daily 14 hour fast gives seven hours of digestion followed by seven hours of the same organs working on toxic cleansing) but made sense. In any case, fasting works on several levels (and saves money on late night munchies). But pseudoscience? Doesn't seem an accurate descriptor, although some may disagree. ] (]) 00:36, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::All the people in the fasting advocates category were nearly all naturopaths and others promoting pseudoscientific views about fasting (it can cure all diseases etc), they were not research scientists. The fasting researchers category is for actual nutritional researchers, scientists and historians who have done basic research or clinical studies on fasting which is not pseudoscience . There's obviously a big difference between someone like ] who was studying fasting in a laboratory and publishing under peer review than ] who was writing nonsense about fasting invoking mystical powers. It's best to keep the researchers and scientists in one category whilst all the people making pseudoscientific claims about fasting in another. ] (]) 00:47, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::::::What about those who advocate for fasting who are not professionals in the field. The before mentioned Swami Satchidananda for example, would he qualify or be lumped in with pseudoscience? A thin line? ] (]) 00:54, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Swami Satchidananda had some sensible things to say about diet but he was also a believer in ] and believed in something similar to ]. I believe his views on fasting were pseudoscience although I could be wrong. I did a lot of research into historical fasting and all I found was that it was heavily associated with alternative medicine claims, there is a good historical paper about it . I used to be interested in documenting alternative fringe diets but it doesn't really interest me anymore. If you want to remove any mention of pseudoscience from fasting advocates category, it wouldn't bother me. I guess you could just use the category to add anyone who is an advocate. Historically I have never come across a non-pseudoscientific fasting advocate, the problem with the topic is all the extreme claims that come with it. ] (]) 01:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::So to clarify, are we all in agreement to remove "pseudoscience" from the fasting advocates category? Or do you want to wait for more possible input from other editors? I'm fine to wait.-] (]) 14:17, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			{{od|14}}I agree with Psychologist Guy about this. A lot of these pages, though perhaps not all, are properly described as pseudoscience. I also think that this discussion has grown to something that should not be at my user talk page. The options are either the category talk page or ], and in either case, I will want to have a neutral notice at ]. --] (]) 17:20, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			:Sounds good. I just move the discussion to the Category talk page.-] (]) 17:30, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			::Thanks. ]. --] (]) 17:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			== Oh, damn! ==
	I was looking at, um, another website, and found this: (scroll down to June 7, 3:29 AM). Quotes me and describes what I said as "extremely dumb". Happened ten days ago, and I only saw it just now, but I figure I just ''have'' to share! Now I know I'm doing something right! (In fairness, I once long ago called the person who said that "a fourteen year-old white boy", and maybe they just saw ''that'' now.) {{(:}} --] (]) 21:32, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
			{{noping|Lourdes}}: . And I supported both their RfAs, although at least I'm in ''a lot'' of good company. --] (]) 00:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
	== Thank you ==
			:Hopefully goes for the sock-to-admin threepeat! ] (]) 00:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			:I saw that last week and am honestly still digesting it. It's been brought up a little in some conversations we've both been involved in though. Everything else at hand aside, I think it's safe to say no one expected that. ] (]) 00:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::Oh, yeah. I honestly had forgotten about it, but the folks at the website that dare not speak its name reminded me that I once said this: . Now I feel better about my judgement about Lourdes. --] (]) 23:56, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
			::On logging in today, I'm in a much better mood, because of something completely unrelated: . Rather esoteric, but something that took up way too much of my editing time recently. And it came out the right way, despite the efforts of ]ers and POV pushers. It ''should'' have come out that way, but I had no confidence that it ''would''. --] (]) 17:15, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
			== Gone fishin' ==
	For saying . Not necessarily about that case specifically, but the general sentiment. I’ve become much more frustrated of late that the community seems to be insistent on giving people every chance to prove just how incompatible they are with our values and ideals. Maybe I’m jaded, but I don’t see that as a healthy thing for any group. Anyway, it’s a frustration that I know a few others have had lately. Community moods shift and we’re apparently in an AGF above all else moment now. Anyway, you’re not the only one who has similar thoughts, and it’s nice to hear a Recognized Name(tm) say them on occasion :) ] (]) 21:21, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
	:Thanks for saying that, and thanks also for getting the entire process started. As you can see here, I'm retired-and-yet-not-retired, whatever that is. I'm just flat-out disgusted with what the culture here has degraded into, and I'm only dropping in from time to time to, I guess, be a single-purpose account whose purpose is to try and do something about it. If things improve, maybe I'll eventually resume content editing, but if not, not.
	:I'll say to anyone reading here: remember the last time you recorded your favorite TV show on VHS tape using a VCR? Me neither. There is no fundamental reason why Misplaced Pages cannot become obsolete too. The most essential feature of WP was "anyone can edit", that wiki-style crowdsourcing would actually work. It was a terrible idea on its face, and yet has worked absolutely brilliantly, and vastly better than the alternatives. So far. But I think that we are starting to bump up against the limitations of "anyone can edit", and it remains to be seen whether we can adapt. The servers aren't going to go dark as the hasten-the-day folks predict, but the creation and maintenance of content will just gradually peter out. I mean it very literally when I say that "anyone can edit" is starting to be something that is accepted without critical thinking, in the way that cults do. --] (]) 22:05, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
	::I’ve never really been huge as a civility enforcer guy (think Eric and some of the usual people that refers to.) People argue with each other on the internet and I generally think that in cases of people who mean well and are actually trying to align with our values, then yes, we should find a way to try to let them contribute.{{pb}}What I don’t have much tolerance for are the individuals who in archaic terms have shown that they are not people of good will. I don’t think our principles require us to find a reason to assume that people who bait others and laugh it off as a joke, see every discussion as a battleground, manipulates facts to the point of lying, etc. as assets. I think there’s an unfortunate trend in this community now that thinks AGF means that we have to try every way to keep someone who has been around 6+ months and has a few thousand edits. AGF really is important, but so is keeping people who actually ''are'' people of good will vs. those who appeal to the principle to cause more problems. Anyway, my mini-rant. ] (]) 22:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
	:::I agree. I also have no problem with people who joke around, as some of my best wiki-friends frequently do, even though we also have users who disapprove of ''that''. It's like: if you use a dirty word, bad, if you use humor in your user space, bad, but if you condescend to other editors or if you live in an alternative reality and want everyone else to join you there, well, that's just the diversity of the community. It's like the view of civility of a peevish child, with no nuance. --] (]) 22:50, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
			I'm going to be away from Misplaced Pages November 10–16 while attending the ] meeting in Washington, DC. (A much-needed break!) I'll respond to stuff here when I get back. --] (]) 15:41, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
	== :) ? ==
			:Safe travels. Looking forward to the debriefing. ] (]) 22:52, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
			::You need real "Gone fishin'" and telling us how that time by the water was for a real break. Much better if you didn't catch any. But wishing you the near-best thing on your conference.!! <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:01, 10 November 2023 (UTC)</small>
			Welcome back. So let's get right to it: how was the food? ] (]) 20:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
	]] 22:47, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
	:Oh, I see what you mean! Not to worry. I've been getting huffed at for "not coming back" but coming back; that's why. But just now amid edit conflict, I had actually decided to replace it with something better. --] (]) 22:53, 8 July 2020 (UTC)		:Thanks. Right now, I'm exhausted, so I'm focusing on whether there's anything urgent for me to respond to, but I'll have a non-brief debrief in the next few days, including a restaurant guide. --] (]) 20:51, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
			::I've just finished my online follow-ups to the meeting materials (such as finding the things for the authors who didn't make it in person). Tomorrow, I'm going to send various emails to other people, then after that, I'll be able to turn my attention to whatever I'm going to say here. --] (]) 00:02, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::No biggie. Just mostly curious (as always) as to what personally caught your attention and what you see as significant progress and development towards greater understanding in the discipline in particular, but also in terms of interdisciplinary applications, connections, and synthesis with other disparate fields. I realize, of course, that specialization serves a necessary purpose, as there is far too much going on for any one person to understand or comprehend without narrowing focus and attention, but there's also a need to understand how these insights apply at higher levels of both abstraction and generality. I believe, for example, that these insights are not confined to one field, but at some level apply to all of them as an interconnected whole. ] (]) 09:37, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
			:OK, I finally got around to this. Briefly on food, when I go to DC I always get a hotel near ], because there are lots of good restaurants on Connecticut Avenue and on P Street. A long time favorite of mine is ''Bistro du Coin'', where this year I had an excellent ]. On P Street east of the circle I found a tiny hole-in-the-wall Thai restaurant called ''Bua Thai'' that was a real find. Oh, and near my hotel was the embassy from ], in front of which is a statue of a warrior that is ]-worthy. Sort of looks like the woman in ], but supposed to be a young man as a warrior, complete with falcon, and riding a ].
	== FYI ==
			:Now to the serious stuff. There wasn't as much this year that struck me as "breakthroughs" as in some previous years, but a couple of things in specialized topics were of interest to me personally. As I've long expected, ] (a page I started, and a subject in which our ] made important research contributions) has turned out not to be limited to ] and not to be limited to the ] and environs. Looks like it involves multiple kinds (frequencies) of waves, and happens throughout many regions of the ]: , . Also, the medial nucleus of the ] is coming to be recognized as an important brain region for things that "feel good"; for example: .
			:As I think about interesting things with interdisciplinary potential, there is starting to be serious interest in figuring out the neuroscience of consciousness. (Spoiler alert: no one has solved it yet, or gotten close to solving it, but people are thinking seriously about how to frame the question.) There was a symposium about this: . Researchers are looking at things centered on whether there is some sort of minimum quantity of neurons firing that can give rise to consciousness. One approach is using brain imaging of people waking up from general anesthesia, to see what sorts of brain regions become active. Another is asking volunteers to look at a screen and indicate when they can discern an image on it. Typically, this means working with a photo of a human face as the image, and starting out with it very pixilated, then progressively bringing it into focus until it can be recognized as a face. An interesting early finding was discussed by ]: if you ask the study subject to indicate when the face comes into view by pressing a button, most of the brain regions that get activated are actually being activated by the decision to press the button and the process of doing so. Therefore, researchers are asking subjects just to watch the image come into view, but not to do anything, and studying the much more subtle brain activity changes that happen at the time the face becomes visible. It's a tricky business, being sure that one is measuring what one ''thinks'' one is measuring! --] (]) 00:00, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
			== Tracking pageviews by user? ==
	] ] ] <sub>]</sub> ] 17:16, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
	:Was there a particular series of edits that added so many links? --] (]) 22:23, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
	::No - the other articles that linked to Sherwin's page are related. It's a spreading vine of knowledge and Chris' article is part of that. It made me smile. ] <sub>]</sub> ] 22:27, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
	:::He's listed on ], quite appropriately, and that's transcluded on a lot of those pages. (I took a quick look, and at first had trouble figuring out where the link to his page was.) Thanks for letting me know. When I think of all the people WP has lost, there's ''so many'' of them. He is much missed. --] (]) 23:31, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
	==Happy First Edit Day!==
	<!-- ##RW UNDERDATE## -->
	{| class="messagebox standard-talk" style="border: 1px solid #CC9999; background-color: Yellow;"
	|style="text-align:center"|]
	|style="text-align:left" width="100%"|Happy First Edit Day, '''Tryptofish''', from the ]! '''Have a great day!''' ] ] 07:24, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
	|}
	==Happy First Edit Day!==
	<!-- ##RW UNDERDATE## -->
	<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color:#E6E6FA; border: 1px solid #7D00B3; margin: 0.5em auto; padding: 0.5em; width:90%; text-align: center">]<span style="font-weight:bold;font-size:125%;">Happy First Edit Day!</span>]
	Have a very happy first edit anniversary!
			I don't know where to post this, so for the time being I'll post it here. While logged in, I briefly looked at a page at the Arabic Misplaced Pages. Nothing particularly fancy, just looking at how their page on something looks, in comparison to our page. Our page, in this case, is ], so not a political subject (to my knowledge). Importantly, I did not make any edits, just looked briefly, then came back here. Within seconds, I got an automated welcome message at my talk page at Ar WP. I ran it through Google Translate, and it was a very vanilla-flavored welcome message like the ones we often give to new users.
	From the ], ]<sup>]</sup> 18:51, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
			But I hadn't made any edits. I just looked. I know that Wikimedia tracks the numbers of page views, but this had to have been a tracking of views '''by user'''. And that strikes me as '''very''' disconcerting. WTF? --] (]) 21:58, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
			:Looks like the answer is fairly simple. Check out your . You triggered the "attached on" log, which likely showed up on enhanced recent changes, either giving a patroller an opportunity to welcome a new user or also triggering an automatic welcome. Not sure exactly how "attached to" does this, but my guess is that happens when you login globally and visit the other wiki. ] (]) 22:30, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
			::Thanks for finding that. Is there a way to turn that off in my user preferences? --] (]) 23:16, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
			::Actually, I think the answer to my own question is "no". And I probably don't need to continue to be alarmed. This doesn't look like it was really tracking what I was looking it, but rather tracking the fact that I looked for the first time at that particular WP. Presumably, it does not track every subsequent view of any particular project. It still feels wrong to me that "attachment" occurs simply on viewing, without depending on making a first edit, however. --] (]) 23:29, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::My memory is hazy, but there was a discussion about how this works when they first rolled out the unified login (SUL). There's notes from Brion Vibber about how it works . Search for the string "attached" and read through each instance. You triggered it automatically when you logged in through the SUL and visited the Arabic wiki. ] (]) 23:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::Thanks again for finding all this helpful information. I'm rather amused by the facetious references to "evil plans" in the phabricator post. I can see that it's basically a matter of "login continues" as someone browses from one project to another, and I'm fine with that. I can see from my global account info that it correctly shows me as "attached", but with zero edits made there. I still think it's kind of creepy that simply viewing (aka "attaching") would have shown up on enhanced recent changes, because that's putting an awful lot of work onto "enhanced", since I never made a "recent change" in the sense of an edit. But I guess that I'm satisfied that this wasn't a matter of tracking and keeping a record of page views, so I'm not going to worry about it any further. --] (]) 17:21, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::::You may be interested in ], a tool that automatically visits all wikis once so that future visits are not permanently recorded at ]. ] (]) 22:31, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::::Wow, I did it, and it just finished running, and I'm now "attached" to 828 wikis. If anyone else is thinking of doing it, you have to add the code to your global.js, not common.js. I've gotten a dozen welcoming emails (clearly bot-generated) in a plethora of languages and alphabets that I don't even recognize. Not sure if it was worth it, but certainly an interesting journey. Makes me appreciate what the Stewards have to do. --] (]) 23:58, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
			== ACE in the whole ==
			*]. --] (]) 00:22, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
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	== Interview ==		== AN mis-click ==
	I've been meaning to ask you a lot of questions since we last talked. First and foremost, what's your take on ]? I used to live a few blocks from their offices. ] (]) 07:31, 17 August 2020 (UTC)		Thanks for quickly reverting my mis-click. I honestly hadn't realized I had done it, and usually I've got the easy revert links/buttons set to require a confirmation / edit summary of some type. Appreciate it! ''']''' (]) 22:43, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
	:I haven't followed that particular company at all, but I've been (on and off) following the basic research in that field. I think that the basic research is making progress at a really impressive speed, and looks quite promising. I'd say that we are probably still about five years away from routine clinical use. --] (]) 15:54, 17 August 2020 (UTC)		:No problem. As it happens, I was just then looking to read that comment, couldn't find it, and looked at the edit history. Believe me, we all make mistakes. --] (]) 22:46, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
			:That's the primary reason I requested to have my rollback right removed. I was misclicking at least once a day, and in many cases, I wasn't even aware of it. It was also far more common on mobile while viewing desktop-style through Safari. Now without the right, it never happens. ] (]) 22:54, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
	== Don't regulate the templars? ==		== Going to hospital for surgery ==
			In a couple of days, on Dec. 12, I'll be going into the hospital for surgery, so starting then, I'll be away from editing for an undetermined amount of time. This is for the ] ], aka pinched nerve in my lower back, that I mentioned above, in ], and was delayed by the deep vein thrombosis I talked about there, but can be done now. It feels good to me to describe it in some detail here, and I think it might be interesting to some talk page participants.
	I love you. :D ]] 21:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
	:{{(:}} --] (]) 16:17, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
	:. --] (]) 16:44, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
			Trigger warning for people who are uncomfortable with descriptions of surgery.
	== Jim Bowler ==
			I've had an ] and some other testing, all of which shows that my lowest ] (L5) and top ] (S1) vertebrae have gotten pressed too tightly together on the left side, creating pressure on the nerve that leaves the spinal cord between them. The pinching of that nerve has been causing ] in my left leg and left thigh, and conservative treatments (things other than surgery) have all been exhausted. (That's putting it mildly. I'm really fed up with this.) The surgery will be designed to fix that, and should provide a permanent cure.
	If you want to help out with ], I'm happy to have your input or helping hands. ] (]) 21:36, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
	:Thanks for the invite, but since I'm sort of "on strike" with respect to content work, and since the topic isn't really in my wheelhouse, I'll have to say sorry for now, at least until I start feeling more positively about WP. Any of my magnificent (or otherwise!) talk page participants: please do help if you are interested! --] (]) 18:04, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
	::No worries. Apparently, the Mungo Man discovery had several running controversies attached to it, and I want to make sure I represent them fairly and accurately. Thank you for your consideration. ] (]) 18:07, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
			This is major surgery, and the process is kind of scary, but I'm feeling good about it and looking forward to having it done, because I really want and need that cure. I'll be in a major US teaching hospital, one whose name people in the US would readily recognize. My surgeon is the chief of ] in the spine medicine department, and I feel good about my interactions with him over multiple meetings. Amazingly, if everything goes as expected, it's going to be outpatient surgery, so that I will go home the same day.
	== Missing you ==
			They are going to start by injecting me with ], which is my favorite (most enjoyable) iv drug. Then they will put me under general anesthesia. After that, they are going to put me on a ], and inject me with a ], that will stop my breathing and any other movements. The breathing tube will breath for me. The idea is that I can't be moving because the surgery is going to be so delicate.
	Yep, I do. ] <sub>]</sub> ] 21:39, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
	:{{(:}} That's sweet of you, much appreciated! (For those following, it's re: .) --] (]) 00:04, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
	::Oops - there I go again...brevity screws me up - never fails. Thx for the clarity. Maybe editors will be more tolerant of my tl;dr responses, although I have improved greatly. ] ] <sub>]</sub> ] 00:48, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
	::Uhmmm...well, hell - I just saw Girth's "I love you." That changes everything! ] ] <sub>]</sub> ] 01:26, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
	:Missing him? I didn't even know you were shooting at him. ]] 02:00, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
	::Just like shooting fish in a barrel! --] (]) 21:53, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
	:::And here's an to go with your idiom. ] <sub>]</sub> ] 23:00, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
	::::Careful, it might shrink when wet. --] (]) 23:19, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
	:::::Nah - that only happens when it's cold. ] <sub>]</sub> ] 23:22, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
			I'll be lying face-down, and the surgeon will make a small incision on my back, a little more than one inch, where the nerve is being pinched. After that, the surgery will take place under an ], something I find amazing. The surgeon will expose the backbone where those two bones are, and locate the nerve. He will then perform a microscopic ], to make a small hole through the back of one of the vertebrae and see inside the backbone. He will then perform a ], or more precisely, a ] through that opening. The idea there is to remove the parts of the ] that are pressing on the nerve. He will also perform a ] to remove a little bit of each bone on the left side, where the bones are touching the nerve.
	== Blast from the past ==
	A couple days ago I ran into an old edit of Elvey's, and seeing as they're banned, is just making edits over it ok given that they can't reply and it's a minor issue? ] (]) 20:23, 19 September 2020 (UTC)		That's it! The surgeon told me that this operation gives immediate relief from the kind of pain I've been having, and he is confident that it will work. So I'll be editing here through the 11th, and I'll get back here some unknown number of days after that, when I'm sure that I'm feeling better. --] (]) 23:59, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
	:I don't know the details of what you are referring to, but ] is what applies here, so I don't see why not. --] (]) 23:25, 20 September 2020 (UTC)		:Fascinating! I hope that everything goes as smooth as silk, and that your recovery is quick and complete. ] (]) 00:13, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
	::ANI pban from 2016 that you acted in. Mostly wanted a second opinion here on what to do. ] (]) 22:29, 21 September 2020 (UTC)		::Thanks, Cullen! --] (]) 00:16, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
			:happened to see this, so I'm wishing you good luck and a swift recovery. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 00:21, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
	:::No problem, thanks for asking. --] (]) 22:09, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
			::Thanks, Andrevan! --] (]) 00:29, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
			:Best of luck to you and the whole care team. Hope to see you back soon! ] (] / ]) 00:31, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
			::Thanks! --] (]) 01:33, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
			:Anything like this I find scary. But I've had two friends recently go through seriously complex procedures I'd never heard of, one experimental, with successful total remission of cancers, and are symptom free. They really are making progress in the medical field -- nearly sciencefictiony. Thank you for sharing this. ] (]) 01:38, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
			::Thanks! Yes, it really has the potential to be scary, what with being paralyzed during the operation and "breathing" artificially, and with one small slip and my left leg could get paralyzed. But I very much feel confident that nothing bad will happen, and I can't wait to be done with the pain. --] (]) 01:43, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
			:Here's hoping for a smooth and flawless procedure and a quick recovery. ] (]) 09:37, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
			::Thanks, Viriditas! --] (]) 21:47, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
			:Very best wishes, Trypto. I'm sure all will go well. I've been fishing around for an amusing link, but I ]. Kind regards. ] (]) 10:14, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
			::Thanks, Martin! I'll find that link, when I get ]. <small><small>(Cue link to ]!)</small></small> --] (]) 21:47, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::<small>]: ] (]) 22:50, 9 December 2023 (UTC) </small>
			::::Speaking of backs, I've been thinking. Neurosurgery is commonly referred to as "brain surgery". Since this is going to be getting down into my ], perhaps that means that my brain is in my rear end. I know that there is no shortage of editors who would agree with that. --] (]) 22:59, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::: Hey, I resemble that remark! <small> Wishing you the best - I am confident this procedure will work out fabulously. </small> ] (]) 11:15, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::Thanks, JoJo! --] (]) 18:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
			:Best wishes Trypto! ] <span style="color:#AAA"><small><nowiki>&#123;{u&#124;</nowiki></small>]<small><nowiki>&#125;}</nowiki></small></span>  <sup>]</sup> 11:16, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
			::Thanks, Gtoffoletto, and ''crepi il lupo!'' Much as I said to Leyo, below, I appreciate this very much, under the circumstances. That's very kind of you. --] (]) 20:25, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
			Wish you the best on that. Come back soon! <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 20:37, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
			:Thanks, North! --] (]) 20:42, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
			All will be well, I think and hope. Take care. ] (]) 21:28, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
			:Thanks, KJP1! --] (]) 21:34, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
			I wish you good luck and a quick recovery. I will have surgery a few days later. --] 21:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
			:Thank you so much for saying that, Leyo, especially under the circumstances of the ongoing ArbCom case. It's a wonderful thing about Misplaced Pages, that editors can set aside their differences, to recognize that we are all real people. And I wish you, in turn, the very best of outcomes in your own surgery, and a rapid and happy return here. --] (]) 21:42, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
			:: Thank you for your kind words! I'm not so sure about the "return here" part. --] 21:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
			Wishing you luck and a painless (well, as painless as this one can get) recovery. My dad went through major back disorder and related issues for decades, and he still commented pretty often on how he wishes he had his surgery done earlier. Hopefully you end up being able to say the same thing in the coming weeks/months. ] (]) 00:28, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::Thanks, KoA, and may whatever happens here at Misplaced Pages be as painless as possible for you! --] (]) 20:25, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
			* Hope all goes well and that you're (ahem) 'back' here soon. ] (]) 07:34, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
			*:Thanks, BC, and my back thanks you as well! --] (]) 20:25, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
			Best of luck and best of health. I can't think of anything particularly elegant to say here, so I will cheat and echo everyone above (and below) me. <b style="font-family:Courier New;">]]</b><sup>]</sup> 00:16, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
			:Thanks! --] (]) 21:00, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
			:Hi everyone, I'm back. The surgery seems to have been a success, and I'm starting to feel better. I've waited until now to post here, because it's taken a while for all the medications to wear off, and I don't want to post anything here until I'm thinking clearly again (yes, I know some editors believe I've never thought clearly, wink, wink). I'll still want to ease back into things here, but I do want to let people watching here know that I'm alright. --] (]) 21:00, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
			:: And there you go! Now if only there was a surgical intervention for effecting painless editing on Misplaced Pages... ] (]) 21:09, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::I'm pretty sure a lobotomy would do that. But no need for surgery. The drugs that have been inside my body for the past two days (truly a pharmacopaeia (or however one spells that)) would make anything painless, although edits made under their influence might well have consequences that would eventually be painful. --] (]) 21:13, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::Glad you're doing better. Are you a '']'' fan? There's a fascinating depiction of the use of ] in the series (the procedure itself is supposed to take place in the early 1970s) that is used to essentially lobotomize one of the characters. One wonders how accurate it is or if such a result is purely fiction. ] (]) 22:31, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::I can highly recommend a lobotomy. I even tried ] for a year. But just like you, I ]. Alas. ] (]) 22:31, 14 December 2023 (UTC) <small></small>
			:::::There's the problem - you should have used ]. ] (]) 08:15, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::Well, I see I've come back to the same Misplaced Pages I left a few days earlier, wink, wink. Viriditas, you should know me well enough by now to know that I'm not a '']'' fan, although I'm a fan of plenty of things that are strange. Lobotomy is simply pseudoscience, often used to advance bigoted beliefs, not unlike forced sterilization. As for shock therapy, the neuroscientist here will shock you by saying that I bet (warning, what follows is OR and citation needed) that psychedelics work the same way that shock therapy does, just a bit less crudely. Ever unplug an electronic device, wait a few seconds, and plug it back in, and the device appears "fixed"? <small>(No pun on forced sterilization intended.)</small> In this case, the electronic device is just the human brain.
			::::::Now as for the rest of you wild turkeys, I'll have you know that I've been doing ] straight up, none of that weak stuff fer me. But I'm done with it, no more post-operative pain. One of the, well, stranger things, on the day after surgery was that I kept getting "zaps" of pain – I'm talking about lightening bolts going down my left leg – lasting only a second or less, the apparent result of the nerve continuing to be irritated for a while after the surgery. And I kid you not about this: they closed the incision with ]. I dare you to see what that redirects to! I dare you! It's ]! --] (]) 22:20, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::Omg ]?? More sticky than ]'s hair colour! ''I was in hospital last week. I asked the nurse if I could do my own stitches. She said "suture self"''. ] (]) 22:37, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::My doctor told me I had to stop masturbating. I asked him why. He said, so he could examine me. --] (]) 22:40, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::::This explains ]. ] (]) 22:48, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::All you guys keep me in stitches. --] (]) 22:55, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Isn't that the surgeon's job?--] (]) 02:02, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Yeah, but these WP editors look like they could stand to earn some extra cash. --] (]) 19:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::Psychedelics aren't like shock therapy AFAIK; classical psychedelics activate the ]. My theory is that it's similar to dreaming, or being a child. It's related to ]. The ] studies that I've read say that it helps form connections and ], not necessarily by zapping, but by turning off filters and letting more data in. There are some interesting evolutionary theories that visual acuity is increased, it adaptive for hunter-gathering, leading to the development of culture/mythology. In a world without artificial light and not a lot of food, sleep, you start to hallucinate more often.
			:::::::Anyway, speaking of which, glad your surgery was uneventful, when I read the description, I realized I could not bring myself to do it if I needed it. Also, do you know the one about the doctor who was testifying about an autopsy. The lawyer asked him, did you check for a pulse first, he said no. Then how did you know the patient was dead. Well, his brain was in a jar on my desk. But is it possible he could have been alive? Yes, the patient might still be alive, and maybe practicing law somewhere. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 23:25, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::Thanks for the good wishes. (Actually, it was a little eventful, but only in terms of them making me wait a long time before it began. And don't get me started on getting that oxycodone Rx filled. F—k the ], as well as medical insurance in the U.S of A.)
			::::::::But, now, now, now, young editor, don't argue with Dr. Tryptofish about neuropharmacology. Believe me, I know about serotonin. And I know about those studies. In fact, you can turn off those filters by what I described, about unplugging. (What I said about zapping, was something else, and nothing therapeutic about ''that''!) The popular writer ] wrote an ] about depression, in which he likens depression to a demon. (What I've been talking about here is the use of psychedelics for depression, not for the lulz. And I know about depression, too.) I would liken that demon to a microphone hog, who keeps telling the depressive brain that things are hopeless, while not letting rational rebuttals (as in ]) get a word in edgewise. Conventional antidepressants work by slowing the demon down, so good thoughts get heard. ]s are very sticky, like what Martin said about Rudy's hair gel. Once they become "habits of thought", they are hard to unlearn. But if you briefly unplug the oscillator, then plug it back in, that's a way to leave the noonday demon stuttering. --] (]) 23:55, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::I've been thinking about what you said, about "when I read the description, I realized I could not bring myself to do it if I needed it." After a fashion, that makes two of us! On one level, what was I thinking, agreeing to let them stop my breathing? However, I have a good understanding of how that stuff works, as a scientist, and I know that there is an excellent success rate. (Here's a scary thought: one has a better likelihood of emerging unharmed from the surgery that I had, than from driving an automobile every day for a year.) A significant consideration for me was that I am fortunate to be able to have had the surgery at a world-class hospital. I probably would not have agreed to it at a smaller, less prominent hospital.
			::::::::But here's the real thing: pain. Unless you've lived with the kind of pain I had, you cannot know how motivating it becomes to make it go away. They do this thing in health care, where they ask you to rate the pain on a scale from 1 to 10. Often for me, it was 10. And it was always worst in the evening and at night, when I was trying to go to sleep. The symptoms started in June, and followed a pattern of getting worse over time. So picture going more than 6 months with very bad sleep, and pain going from terrible to even worse. (Oddly, I could also go for extended periods during the day with no pain, before it would hit. If anyone's wondering, ''that's'' when I would edit here.) From June to August, I couldn't get anyone to take it sufficiently seriously, because it's very common for people to get a so-called "slipped disc" that just goes away with time, with minimal treatment. During August, they had begun to run out of minimal treatments, and they began to believe me when I kept telling them that this didn't feel like something minor that would just go away. So they had me get an MRI, and woops! I had been telling them the truth all along. (I'll omit, here, a lengthy listing of all the things that didn't work.) ] worked, but I quickly became ] to it. An ] worked for a while, but then wore off. By September, I had gotten a referral to the neurosurgeon who would eventually operate on me. He wanted to try every possible alternative before putting me through surgery, so he convinced me to have one more epidural injection. That one worked better than the first, but it also (apparently) gave me deep vein thrombosis, which could have killed me. They put me on ], which cured the DVT, but forced the surgery to be put off until this past week (because one cannot have this kind of surgery while taking a blood thinner). So after all that, I was far beyond desperate to have the surgery. And as of now, I'm very glad that I did.
			::::::::By the way, I found out from reading my post-op medical records that they also had a radiologist in the operating room, which I didn't know ahead of time. They apparently had an X-ray machine in/under/beside? the operating table, and were using real-time X-ray images to decide where to make the incision. I remember that just before I went under from the anesthesia, that I saw a big screen on the wall with what looked like a full-torso X-ray of a backbone, and thinking, "I wonder if that's my backbone?" --] (]) 19:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::<small>Sounds like a ]. But did they have the ]?? ] (]) 19:48, 16 December 2023 (UTC) </small>
			:::::::::::<small>Dunno, probably. Would you like me to upload my X-rays to Commons? My gown was open in the back. (Martin runs screaming in terror from the room.) --] (]) 19:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC)</small>
			:::::::::Trypto, please tell us if you really are ] (and possibly practicing law somewhere) and if so, ] we should be listening to. Thanks. ] (]) 23:43, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::Well ''of course'' I'm in a ]. ], a fish, or ]. --] (]) 00:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Thanks for ] there, dude. That's a big relief. Was afraid for a moment you had ] or, worse still, had ]. ] (]) 00:09, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::::How dare you compare me to an invertebrate! I'll have you know that ], and I've even had somebody drill a hole in it! ''sniff, sniff'' --] (]) 00:16, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::::that's quite a story. I'm glad it all worked out for the best. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 20:19, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::Thanks. Although off-topic for this thread, I'm eye-rolling to see that someone I told to eff off of my talk the other day advised you and another editor in a toxic topic area to have a '']''. Tin ear alert. (But I'm glad that you and that other editor seem to have worked things out.) --] (]) 21:12, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::{{tq|Viriditas, you should know me well enough by now to know that I'm not a Stranger Things fan}}
			:::::::You're right, but I think you should be. You would love the show, especially its foray into weird science. Reminds me a lot of what '']'' tried to do in the 2000s, and in some ways, it covers the same themes, with the only difference being its setting in the 1980s, which is brilliantly done. The thing is, I don't watch a lot of television (very little actually), so I try to make the most of it when I do. ] (]) 22:16, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Myself, I'm very into old movies. As it happens, alas, I've just made an urgent MD appointment, because the swelling in my leg suddenly came back, suggesting that I'm back in the DVT club. Gotta go now. --] (]) 22:24, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Wishing you well. ] (]) 22:32, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Thanks! After several hours in the hospital, I just got home. Back on Xarelto, sure enough. --] (]) 06:14, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::How are you feeling? Looking at the page for ], it says it will be available as a generic in 2024. Question: what does the current research on moderate alcohol intake say? When you do a google search for it, it's somewhat funny. It says alcohol in moderation may thin the blood, and just under that it say alcohol in moderation may cause clotting. Have they made up their mind yet? ] (]) 20:21, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Thanks so much for asking! I got home from the hospital very late last night, and didn't get much sleep, but overall, I feel OK-ish, under the circumstances. Getting back on that med is really all I need to feel safe from the kinds of things that could go very, very badly, so I'm currently not worried. Being in a hospital ER (different hospital than the one I recently had surgery in) is certainly a weird experience. Shortly before I left, a woman with a child who was clearly in terrible pain arrived, and the howling in pain is still giving me the creeps. (And for the 1 AM taxi ride home, my taxi driver loudly talked at me about the weirdest Q-anon kinds of stuff. Told me the secret to good health is to never take medicine. And me an emeritus professor of pharmacology. But I behaved myself, and the driver acted like he was my best friend for life when I got out of the cab.) Anyway, about alcohol and clotting, I'd have to do a literature search to answer that. When these things are contradictory from one source to the next, they probably mean that the effects are not very dramatic to begin with. Myself, I use alcohol in moderation, and don't intend to change that. --] (]) 20:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::I am happy to hear you are in good spirits and are ] (a great, uplifting song that you may enjoy listening to at your leisure). I know exactly what you mean about the sound of howling pain. Sometimes those sounds can be "sticky". As you are likely aware, there is brain circuitry that allows sounds to act as triggers. The sound of a child crying, for example, in a lactating mother is thought to release oxytocin leading to the production of breast milk. My guess is that there are a lot of these kinds of triggers going on that we aren't aware of at all. As for the taxi driver and the QAnon stuff, I'm sure you weren't in the mood for it, but it's sometimes fun to ask them questions and see where the pretzel logic goes. I've found, however, that they don't like that, and tend to get upset when forced to self-reflect on their own ideas, so it's probably a good thing that you didn't do that. I hope you enjoy the weekend. ] (]) 20:56, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Oh, and yes it's shockingly expensive, because it's still on patent, but fortunately, I have excellent insurance. --] (]) 20:53, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
			*All the best for your recovery! ] (]) 22:58, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
			*:Thanks, Johnbod! --] (]) 23:00, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
			*Wow - my head is spinning. I'm sorry you had to go through that, I'm glad it went well, I'm amazed that you could be home so quickly and that what used to be extensive surgery is now so minutely focussed, and I'm grateful that you took the time to talk us all through the process. Mostly I am optimistic, looking forward to a full recovery and relief from those years of pain and restriction. What a New Year it will be!--] (]) 02:02, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
			*:Thanks, Gronk Oz! Yes, it's really amazing how they did that procedure. Thanks for the good wishes. --] (]) 18:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
			*Thanks for the updates, glad to hear it went well and you're recovering nicely. Things can get a bit heated in this place sometimes and it's important to for us all to be reminded now and again that there is a "person behind the keyboard." ] (]) 14:49, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
			*:Thanks, Pawnkingthree! That's so very true what you say, about the importance of remembering that we are all real people (or fish!). --] (]) 18:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
			*Wonderful news! ] ] ] 13:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
			*:Thanks, Atsme! --] (]) 21:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
			*I had a follow-up appointment with my surgeon today, and I'm doing very well. I asked him to tell me details of what happened during the surgery, and found out something interesting (if a little ugly). He found (under the microscope) that a fragment of a ligament had gotten where it should not have been, and had become ], making it bone-hard. And it had gotten positioned where it was scraping against the nerve. Obviously, he removed it. No wonder I had so much pain! --] (]) 22:30, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
	== Fungi intelligence ==
			Tomorrow (Friday), I'll be going back to that same hospital, for another procedure. Since a few months ago, I've had some ongoing problems with blood clots in my left leg, and I've agreed with my doctors that we should do something to deal with it, for good. It's a much less major surgery than the one I had on my spinal cord, and I'll just be there a few hours before going home. The anesthesia will be much, much less than last time. It will just be ], along with ] that I expect to enjoy (woo-hoo!). They will inject me with ], and a vascular surgeon will make a very small incision near my ankle. He will thread a long, narrow, tube-like instrument into my ], using ] to visualize where the probe goes. As he moves it up the vein, towards the knee, he will eject more local anesthetic as it goes along. When he gets to the location where the ] that branch off from it, and where the clots have been forming due to ], he will use ] to close-off those small veins. Not a big deal, but I'll probably take a bit of time off from editing. --] (]) 22:41, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
	] and Molly Bentley recently discussed fungi intelligence on their podcast with Merlin Sheldrake, author of '']''. I was curious if you had given it much thought. It sounds like a topic that might interest you. ] (]) 08:01, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
	:There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that fungi are more intelligent than Donald Trump. (See also what Stormy Daniels said about mushrooms and part of his anatomy.)
	:But seriously, this is a topic I haven't given any thought to previously. Obviously, this depends very much upon how one defines intelligence. With life forms that do not have nervous systems, it's got to be approached with that concept in mind. Certainly, organisms do not need nervous systems to respond to their environments: ''cf'' ] (and be careful of ]!). Fungi can assemble into networks through which chemicals can be transferred; ] is quite interesting in that respect. But calling that "communication" should not be taken anthropocentrically to imply language. Nor should evolution be misconstrued as intelligent design. And I think evolution, natural selection, is really what this is mostly about. Fungi, like a lot of other seemingly "simple" life forms, have evolved to take on some pretty impressive abilities to function and adapt within their environments. Whether to call that "intelligent" or just "impressive" is a matter of how one chooses to define those words. --] (]) 19:08, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
	:::{{tps}} Am I a stalker? Not sure, but I was curious, intelligence of dogs an' all that (a little foreshadowing here). Wossname never falls far from the tree, does it? -] ] 21:40, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
	::::Feel free to stalk me as much as you want, Roxy. Just bark to let me know you're there. ;) --] (]) 22:08, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
	:::::I'm glad you havn't left us completely, but I haven't been keeping up. -] ] 22:22, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
			:I hope the procedure goes well and you emerge healthier and happier post-surgery. ] (]) 22:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
	== Jiminy Cricket ==
			:Tryp, you are already in my songs of healing and wholeness but I will send them your way more often at least until your return. I will see you then, and make sure to get plenty of rest. --]] 15:29, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
			:Best wishes for a speedy and healthy recovery. ]<small>]</small> (UTC) 22:44, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
			::Thanks all, very, ''very'' much. (And Buster7, that was a superb edit summary!) I'm back, just checking in quickly, and everything went well. And yes, I need some rest now. --] (]) 23:35, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::Good luck on the recovery and hopefully good prognosis afterwards. ] (]) 17:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::Thanks! I'm feeling much better today. The bandages are off, and it looks like a success. (By the way, I kind of like writing about the procedural details of these things, and I want to correct an anatomical detail. I said above that the surgeon would make the incision near the ankle. He actually ended up making it just below the knee, and worked on things upward from there.) --] (]) 22:16, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::And, earlier today, I had the follow-up imaging, which revealed that the procedure was a complete success. I now have no restrictions, and I can put it behind me. Yay! --] (]) 23:24, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Glad to hear. ] ] (]) 23:27, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Thanks. I think I'm missing the joke? --] (]) 23:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Linked to it above. It's a famous ad campaign. When famous people are successful at something, Disney asks them "Where are you going next?" They then reply, "I'm going to Disneyland!" ] (]) 23:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Oh. {{rimshot}} --] (]) 23:42, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Try the veal! ] (]) 23:43, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
			What a tryp you've been on! Your health journey has been a bit scary. I haven't read every word above, but some of it is in my specialty area as a PT (and also PA). I understand most of that stuff, even though I've been away from it for a number of years. I wrote the ] article, which has grown substantially. Was there ever talk of trying a ] on your lower back? In some cases, that's a good option. Getting older sucks, but think of the alternative. We can complain about being old, but getting older is sort of a good thing, unless one lives with chronic pain that defies treatment. -- ] (]) (PING me) 00:50, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
			:In my case, there was almost no disc herniation, which is what delayed the correct diagnosis. Spinal fusion wouldn't have worked in my case. It was a matter of removing a calcified ligament that was scraping against the L5-S1 nerve, and doing a ]. --] (]) 00:15, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			:: I'm sure your surgeon made the right decisions. It's very touchy stuff, and great skill is used. I really admire those surgeons. -- ] (]) (PING me) 00:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			==Happy Holidays==
	I did it WTH is happening? I had too many tabs open in the browser while hunting diffs, got distracted, then when I came back to edit, I lost my place, and awaaay we go!! Holy moly, 2020 has been the Had nothing to do with Happy Hour. ] ] <sub>]</sub> ] 01:28, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
			{| style="border: 4px solid {{{border|red}}}; background-color: {{{color|#00873E}}};"
	:I looked to see the context of that, and although there's so much I ''could'' say, I'll restrict myself to the following:
			|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" |]
	:#Don't feel bad about it, it's a pretty easy mistake to make (and I trust that you really don't feel bad, just amused!).
			|rowspan="2" |
	:#Maybe Happy Hour would actually help!
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''Happy Holidays'''
	:#Discussing reliable sourcing for current US politics is likely to make anyone unwell, and is contraindicated for those seeking peace of mind.
			|-
	:#And as for the undeniable weirdness of 2020: Medical science has a way of being right, even when politicians find it inconvenient.
			|style="font-size: large; middle; border-top: 3px solid black;"| Hello, I wanted to be the first to wish you the very best during the holidays. I hope all goes well with your upcoming surgery. I have come to respect you and your advice. You are a valued editor and your opinion matters to me. I hope we get to work together for a long time. ] (]) 02:37, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
	:#So wear a face covering. And other clothing, too.
			|}
	:--] (]) 19:08, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
			:Thanks, Lightburst, I appreciate that very much, and I wish you happy holidays, too. By the way, I already had the surgery, and I'm back now (and even my back is back now). --] (]) 18:31, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
	::Love it! I'll print it and hang it on the fridge with a magnetic frame. ] ] <sub>]</sub> ] 00:20, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
	:::I've been going back-and-forth in my mind about whether to say this or not, but regarding #3, it seems to me to be asking for trouble, and better just left for other people to worry about. For whatever that might, or might not, be worth. --] (]) 22:09, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
	::::There's enough room in there for back-and-forth? ] I've contemplated your #3, and decided the best first step and venue would be an RfC at VPP. A single key point from (1) NPOV, (2) V, and (3) RS will be stated in respective order, and the RfC question will ask if WP:RS/P is compatible with the 1, 2, 3 key points, requiring a yes or no answer for each. Pretty simple, don'cha think? ] <sub>]</sub> ] 03:05, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
	:::::As for enough room, not to mention <s>piece</s> peace of mind, we both know that if I had half a mind, I'd give you a piece of it. As for the rest, I dunno. In general, an RfC is always a good way to take an issue to the community and have it settled there. I didn't look closely enough at this particular issue to be able to give you advice on how to construct an RfC, and I don't want to look at it any more than I already have. But my concern – and as always it's just a suggestion – is more along the lines of not editing ''at all'' in that topic area. It's just too toxic, and you already have people who want to take you out of it. So many other things to write about, that are so much more pleasant. --] (]) 18:55, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
	::::::You will be happy to know that my time is actually measured in controversial areas, and even then, the opposition still wants to take me out over the least little thing but that's WP-wide regardless of topic and I blame systemic bias for the most part. I joined Project Dogs thinking it would be fun.<sup>Groan.</sup> Commons is typically one of my escapes from the madness but haven't been there in a while, and so is being on Bonaire, but my truck is in the shop so I've been spending more time on WP over the past few weeks creating and helping to promote articles to GA, and whatever else I do. I don't have anything ready to nominate for the grueling process of FA just yet, much less the incentive. When not on WP, I'm submerged in a Netflix marathon when I should be submerged underwater taking pictures. I just finished 8 seasons of Arrow - it's like an addiction. I've watched all the Merlin - Arthurian Legend type films, Outlanders, Anne of Green Gable (Anne with an E), Hell on Wheels, Godless, Reign, Tudors, Borgias, Medici, etc. One of the benefits of my former career that has endured over the years is my mental training to not remember movies I've seen or scripts I've written; therefore, reruns are like premiers to me. 😂 ] <sub>]</sub> ] 19:53, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
	:::::::Whereas mine is measured in seconds, minutes, and hours. ] --] (]) 20:12, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
	::::::::That's what all the guys say. {{stretch}} ] <sub>]</sub> ] 20:48, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
	== Well preserved ancient neurons ==		== For what it's worth ==
			I don't mind your neutral. I don't think people should be afraid to share what they think and you did it politely, so I really don't mind. RfAs are ultimately about trust, afterall. I do hope that I'm able to remedy whatever you find concerning about me sometime in the future but if I don't, that's all right. People are entitled to their feelings and shouldn't be ashamed to have them. ] ] 05:41, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
	May I assume you've had a chance to read ? I'm reminded of writer ] and his delightful series '']'' and '']''. It's hard to believe that his speculative, fictional work is 24 years old. I remember watching it as if it was yesterday. ] (]) 10:00, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
	:Actually, you give me more credit than I deserve! No, I wasn't aware of it. Until now, of course, so thank you very much for drawing it to my attention. Some of the images there are pretty awesome! Striking resemblances to modern-day specimens of ]s. --] (]) 18:08, 8 October 2020 (UTC)		:It's worth a lot. And I appreciate your being gracious, both here at my talk page and at the RfA. There's probably nothing that you need to do by way of remedy. On the very small chance that my hunch was on to something, then there's nothing for you to do, and on the far greater chance that I was reading something into nothing, then the only needed remedy is my apology to you. Thanks again for being so understanding and reasonable. --] (]) 18:28, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
			:. --] (]) 21:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
	::Out of curiosity, could there be any utility to brain vitrification? Just curious, because serendipity plays quite a significant role in scientific innovation. ] (]) 00:25, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
	:::Obviously, not likely to be useful therapeutically. But as a research tool, especially to be able to see neuroanatomy below the surface of brains, something like it has already been in use, and found to be quite useful, since 2013. Our page on ] describes it. --] (]) 21:48, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
	:::There is a beautiful video about it at . Talk page watchers may want to take a look; you won't be disappointed. --] (]) 21:58, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
	== ] ==		== Invitation ==
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	* .
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			:::::'''Hello {{SAFESUBST:<noinclude />BASEPAGENAME}}, we need experienced volunteers.'''
			::::* ] is currently struggling to keep up with the influx of new articles. We could use a few extra hands on deck if you think you can help.
			::::* Reviewing/patrolling a page doesn't take much time but <u>it requires a good understanding of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines</u>; Misplaced Pages needs experienced users to perform this task and there are precious few with the appropriate skills. Even a couple reviews a day can make a huge difference.
			::::* Kindly read <u>]</u> before making your decision (if it looks daunting, don't worry, it basically boils down to checking CSD, notability, and title). If this looks like something that you can do, please consider joining us.
			::::* If you would like to join the project and help out, please see the ]. You can apply for the user-right ''']'''.
			::::* If you have questions, please feel free to drop a message at the reviewer's ].
			::::* Cheers, and hope to see you around. </div>
			Sent by ] using ] (]) 01:27, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
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			== Happy Christmas ==
	This is going to be a wild week. ] (]) 08:18, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
			<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:red; background-color:green; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]]]<br/>
	:How prescient of me to have started the page on ]!
			<big>'''Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda.'''<br/>Happy Christmas and Best wishes for a peaceful 2024.</big> <br>
	:As for current events, I've been dreading this upcoming week, and I sure hope it ends sooner rather than later. --] (]) 17:50, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
			] (]) 18:52, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
			----
			</div>
			:Thanks so much, Martin. And to be serious for once, it's great to have you back around. May you find plenty of vowels in the New Year! --] (]) 22:01, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
			::"]!" As if! lol , maybe? ] (]) 15:45, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::I think Martin just told me to fuck off in Welsh...{{fbdb}} --] (]) 19:32, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::FBDB... <small>] ] (]) 20:14, 20 December 2023 (UTC) </small>
			::::That's very likely but it appears he did in a festive way. It's okay as long as it's jolly right? --]] 20:33, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::::That's him, Jolly Saint <s>Nick</s> Marty! Wait, what was that, about a festival of buttocks? --] (]) 21:52, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::I did see something about buttocks in there but I just figured I read that wrong and he was talking the ]. --]] 12:24, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::]! ] (]) 12:28, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::Since you brought up pistols maybe we can call Ms. Daisy and get a ].--]] 12:35, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::::I dunno. That might ] to distraction. (Is there a place called Distraction, Alaska? If not there should be.) --] (]) 00:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::I wonder what it would take to name our makeshift community Distraction? I would definitely be mayor of that town, not because I am a distraction or cause a distraction, well, maybe, as long as I avoid bathing in streams and bush pilots I am okay. --]] 13:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::::::"I didn't get where I am today by bathing in bush pilots!" ] (]) 16:16, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::::::: Close. I'd go back and edit what I said to better reflect what I meant if what I meant would make it seem more scandalous than it already does. --]] 17:08, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::::: <small>Don't worry, I remember that anecdote! ] (]) 17:13, 22 December 2023 (UTC) </small>
			::::::::::::::Now ''that's'' ]! --] (]) 20:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::: About sums me up. They should do a remake with me as the lead character. I wouldn't even have to act just be myself. Better wait until after the thaw though. We could get several hundred episodes by reliving my life here easily. --]] 12:06, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::I could definitely see you as the ] character. (Don't dissuade me if I'm wrong!) --] (]) 23:01, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::: I will not try to not ruin this image for you in the slightest, in fact my mama (aunt) gave all of the girls debutante style lessons and she very much came from an aristocratic Italian family in Firenze, or Florence as English speaking folk call it. I am not a bush pilot though I am a dog musher which is kind of similar, and I fly a lot with our bush pilot. Might be too revealing but our luck with men is sort of a parallel too. Though none have met with unfortunate accidents, yet. Oh, there was that very regrettable incident between one boyfriend and a bear trap but I was hundreds of miles away at the time. I have been married once, and divorced, on my birthday, which is Valentines day. That sounds even worse typing it back. It wasn't official on my birthday, that is just when I had the paperwork delivered to me. So, yeah, but we are reluctantly on semi-decent terms now. Hope these truths don't dissuade your perception too much. --]] 16:49, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::{{(:}} No worries. Actually, quite interesting, thanks. --] (]) 23:39, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::]. In case I find myself ]... here's a little surprise !! ] (]) 23:57, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::], dahling! --] (]) 00:01, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
	== October harvest ==		== Happy Holiday's ==
			I wish you a very safe holiday season and blessings for the new year, Tryp. You are appreciated as an editor, a member of this community and someone I consider a friend. I literally could write pages of reasons why I value you so much. You have had and continue to have a positive impact on me, personally, and I've seen the same in your interactions with others. Keep singing your Song. I have seen each note it is beautiful to my ears. --]] 14:12, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
			:Thank you ''so'' much for saying that! It means a lot to me. And all the best wishes to you, as well! --] (]) 19:33, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
			== December greetings ==
	{{User QAIbox		{{User QAIbox
			| image = Ehrenbach, plum tree with frost.jpg
	| title =
			| image_upright = 0.9
	| image = Apples, Mainz-Finthen.jpg
			| bold = December: ] · ] · ]
	| image_upright = 0.8
	| bold =
	| normal =
	}}		}}
	thank you --] (]) 23:05, 30 October 2020 (UTC)		Today, I have ], of the works of a musician born 300 years ago. - I wish you a good festive season and a peaceful New Year! -- ] (]) 15:21, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
	:Looks delicious, thank ''you''! --] (]) 20:51, 31 October 2020 (UTC)		:Thanks, Gerda! --] (]) 20:04, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
	</br>
			==Season's Greetings==
	== "A single cell that is not a neuron has everything you need to make a decision.” ==
			{| style="border:2px ; background-color: #FFF7E6;"
			|rowspan="2" valign="right" | ]
			|rowspan="2" |
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 2; vertical-align: left; height: 1.1em;" | '''Season's Greetings'''
			|-
			|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Wishing everybody a Happy Holiday Season, and all best wishes for the New Year! The Nativity scene on the ] by ] is my Wiki-Christmas card to all for this year. ] (]) 02:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
			|}
			:Thanks, Johnbod! --] (]) 21:15, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
			==Merry Christmas!==
	* (2019)
	* (Original paper)
			<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:#01902a; background-color:darkred; border-width:3px; text-align:center; padding:3px; width:800px;" class="plainlinks">]
	Any thoughts on this research and its implications for brain evolution? ] (]) 21:06, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
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			<div style="float:left">''{{resize|88%|Spread the ] and leave other users this message by adding {{tls|Multi-language Season's Greetings}}}}''</div>{{-}}
			:Thanks so much, Chris! --] (]) 22:30, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
			== HAPPY NEW YEAR! ==
	:I guess that I would say essentially the same things as I did above at ], with ] in place of a fungus. "Everything you need to make a decision" is clearly hyperbole with respect to all the possible decisions that could ever, possibly, exist. More like ''everything it needs to make the kinds of stimulus-response choices that it needs to make to survive'' – which, admittedly, isn't nothing. --] (]) 19:43, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
	:<small>Especially for something that can only reproduce asexually. No wonder the poor thing looks so horn-y. --] (]) 19:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC)</small>
			2024 and every year thereafter!! {{huge|🎉🥳🎊🎈🙌🏻🥂🍾🎆🎇}} ] ] ] 20:25, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
	== ACE in the whole ==
			:And to you, too! --] (]) 21:41, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
			== Retraction ==
	Tired of elections? Me too! But this one is different:
	:]
			It got lost in the shuffle, but my "serious distortion" comment in the EEng ANI thread was an error. I had taken "prefers the indef over a civility restriction that puts a target on his back" to be an accurate paraphrase of his statement, but it was not. I didn't see your objection to the distortion comment until ater the mess had closed. While "self-requesting an indef" wasn't an entirely accurate summary of the original statement either, it wasn't a "serious distortion", just oversimplification of a nuanced statement (suggesting that a block he'd appeal later would be better than continued community time wasted debating about him), and closer to the original than "prefers the indef over a civility restriction that puts a target on his back". <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 00:18, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
	--] (]) 00:18, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
			:Thanks, and no worries! I appreciate your message, and I'm not at all bothered over it. As you say, the discussion had become a mess. --] (]) 20:55, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
			==Sentientists==
	== ArbCom 2020 Elections voter message ==
			I recently came across this category . It was created by a user who runs a podcast on Sentientism. The problem is there is a lack of sourcing describing Sentientists and how to define this term. ] is in the category but there is no mention of sentientism on his article, nor most of the others. We do have an article on ]. The article is not well sourced and most of the sources on the article do not use the term sentientism. Per ] I think the category might have to be removed. It is rare to come across any modern academic literature defining someone as a "sentientist". I was thinking about taking it to afd but wanted to ask for some advice about this. ] (]) 00:04, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
	<table class="messagebox " style="border: 1px solid #AAA; background: ivory; padding: 0.5em; width: 100%;">
			:Hmm, I'm not sure what to say. I'm unfamiliar with the term, which of course says more about me than about it. Have you looked to see whether it's discussed on the ] page? As I see it, the worst that would happen if you take it to ] (not Afd, since it's a category) would be that consensus would go towards keeping it. My suggestion is that you make sure you've done enough ], and then go ahead with the CfD nom, and also leave a note about the CfD at ] (where I see there has been past discussion about whether or not these are two different things. --] (]) 00:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
	<tr><td style="vertical-align:middle; padding-left:1px; padding-right:0.5em;">]</td><td>Hello! Voting in the ''']''' is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on {{#time:l, j F Y|{{Arbitration Committee candidate/data|2020|end}}-1 day}}. All ''']''' are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
			:By the way, I've seen your post at the Newkirk talk page, but didn't reply. A lot of the idiosyncrasies of these pages comes from edits from a long time ago, by editors who are no longer here. (You can see my scars from such discussions in talk page archives circa 2009–12.) A fair amount of this is stuff where I think you can feel free to be ]. --] (]) 01:04, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
			::There are references for Sentiocentrism I will re-write the article at some point, that term is used in animal ethics literature. Unfortunately the category Sentientists is entirely WP:OR because no references describe any of the people in the category with that term. I will probably take it to afd.
			::Based on what I have seen, about 15-16 years ago Gary Francione was heavily inserted into animal rights articles from a bad POV. It needs to be made clear his position is a fringe one. Many articles like ] that were created a long time ago have no criticism. Any random newbie to the subject will be under the false impression that Francione's or Regan's ideas have been accepted. The ] article has a small "critics" section but it is mostly outdated. There are many critics of animal rights, I expanded this category . In the future I will be working in this area. ] has many members but I am the only user who has been willing to add criticisms of animal rights. I believe this is one area that needs to be expanded for neutrality purposes. ] (]) 18:37, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
			:::Thanks for doing this. When I first started editing, undoing the POV in that topic area was a major concern for me, and the problem was especially bad. If you take a look at this: , you can get an idea of what I was dealing with. --] (]) 18:42, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
			::::Interesting, I had little communication with SlimVirgin but I have scanned some of these articles and this user around 2009 was editing a lot of animal rights articles. They were actually active editing animal rights content as early as 2005 as seen on the Tom Regan article. It's probably a case that this user had emotional interest in the topic and did not want certain critical coverage on Misplaced Pages. I did actually email SlimVirgin once and asked them if they wanted to join ], they never replied me. In the past I confused that user with another user Flyer22. 3 days before Flyer22 passed on she sent me an email reply telling me she wasn't joining WP:VAV because she is leaving Misplaced Pages but she hopes I continue to work on the WikiProject. It's quite hard to find neutral users in this topic area. I mostly edit historical articles that are non-controversial. ] (]) 20:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Definitely two different editors. --] (]) 20:58, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
			== 2024 ==
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	If you wish to participate in the 2020 election, please review ] and submit your choices on the ''']'''. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{tlx|NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. ] (]) 01:43, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
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	==No==
			<br /><br />
	Arbcom's block of Jytdog was deserved. Saying so is not "grave-dancing". ] ] 21:55, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
			</center></div> -- ] (]) 22:04, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
	:For those playing along at home, we are talking about this: .
			:{{(:}} --] (]) 22:05, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
	:Thank you for coming here to discuss it with me. I don't disagree with you that ArbCom acted correctly. And I'm quite ready to agree that you said it in good faith, and did not intend it in any sort of mean-spirited way. Nor do I disagree with you over anyone's right to say it. My concern, however, is about saying it ''on his talk page''. I could make a very, very long list of now-gone users about whom I would readily say "good riddance". But I'm not going to say that in their user space. If there were a discussion in WP space about whether or not those users should be allowed back, I would certainly feel justified in expressing my views there. But not on their talk pages, even if their wiki-friends have posted comments that, from my perspective, lack a certain NPOV. If we're going to take seriously the values of treating one another with respect, which is very much where Jytdog himself fell short, then we need to hold ourselves to that standard. Anyone who looks back at the ArbCom case of a couple of months ago, where his appeal was denied, will see me trying very hard to be fair to both "sides": .
			:: On the Main page: ] who ] --] (]) 20:25, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
	:I meant everything I said in my edit summary, including the high regard in which I hold Risker and you. (And I'm surprised that I haven't been reverted by anyone, yet.) And I really felt badly about making that edit. But if you look at the edit history of that talk page, you'll see what I'm talking about, and I mean it when I say that it would be wrong to revert others while not reverting the two of you. I hope very much that you will not think that I regarded your comment as having been in bad faith. --] (]) 22:59, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
			{{User QAIbox
	::Sigh ... But the talk page is where the discussion was taking place. Where else could I have expressed my opinion? ] ] 00:49, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
			| image = Hazel, Ehrenbach.jpg
	:::I'm confused. As Paul August says, that is where the discussion was taking place. And you left the comment by {{u|SMcCandlish}} untouched, even though it is in exactly the same vein. When future users come to see that discussion, they will have no good way to understand why Jytdog is no longer part of this community. That's not grave-dancing. We're giving you the chance to self-revert, rather than creating an edit war on a user talk page watched by over 500 people. Please self-revert; the community deserves to know what actually happened. There really aren't that many users who were oversight-blocked twice who got a third chance and still created problems. ] (]) 06:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
			| image_upright = 0.8
	::::Perhaps I misunderstand something, so let's see whether or not I understand correctly. As for whether people who come new to the talk page can see what actually happened, it's still linked very clearly at ]. To my knowledge, there is, at this time, no active discussion about whether or not anything should be done about ArbCom's decision (nor in my opinion is there any need for such a discussion at this time). The comments at his talk page are comments from well-wishers, and they had mostly petered out over the last few months, with nothing between April 12 and November 27. In the interim, there had been some negative comments that I and others reverted, culminating in an administrator saying that the next user to restore those comments would be blocked: . Just prior to the two of you, {{u|SMcCandlish}} did indeed post a new comment. But his was a friendly one, beginning with a joke (yes, it's clearly a joke about what Jytdog did wrong) and then going on to say that he misses Jytdog and appreciates Jytdog's work on COI issues. (I'll leave it to him if he wants to, to expand on the MEDRS attrition to which he refers; I understood it to be about the recent ArbCom case on Medicine, possibly including DocJames' tban from drug pricing.) That's a far cry from what the two of you wrote. As for where else one could go in order to re-open discussion about the things Jytdog did wrong, I guess that depends upon how one feels about wanting to start a new discussion about it; as I said, I think it's a closed matter and no need for such a discussion has suddenly arisen.
			| bold = ] · ] · ]
	::::But please let me make clear that the talk page discussion was not an active discussion questioning the validity of ArbCom's decision – nor do I question that decision. I fully get what Risker refers to, about the repeated oversight blocks and failed repeat chances. --] (]) 20:58, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
			}}
	:::::My comment was in response to two comments one dated nov 27 2020, the other Nov 28 2020, so that would seem to be an "active discussion". The first comment seemed to me to amount to saying that the user in question's actions were "not that bad". I disagreed. Still don't see how that is "grave dancing". ] ] 21:43, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
			:: Yesterday was ], with related music. - I'm on vacation - see places. --] (]) 21:45, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
	::::::If I understand, those two comments were the ones by SMcCandlish and by Risker, which as I said were the first comments since April. As I also said earlier, I do not in any way think that your own comment (which, for the record, was simply "Yup") was in bad faith or in a mean spirit. I'll add this: I apologize to you, as well as to Risker, for having used the phrase "grave dancing" in specific reference to your comments. I was thinking of the context of what had come before when I used it, but I apologize for repeating it in reference to the two of you. --] (]) 22:32, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
	:I have to concur with Tryptofish on this. And my comment is not in the same vein as the reverted posts at all. I would like to see Jytdog eventually return, as long as it's clear that he realized what he did was a screwup and that nothing like it may happen again. My point was not to say "good riddance", it was to say "that was one a massive mistake, but if you can learn from it we could use you back, since you're among the editors who have most upheld MEDRS in our content."{{pb}}PS: Yes, I was referring to DocJames, but also to CFCF, QuackGuru, and several others. A lot of them kind of imploded in the e-cigs warring, which was a case of its own, but all of them have actually been major assets in keeping FRINGE garbage out of our med articles. Their mutual conflagration in the e-cigs stuff was largely due to a major split within the medical community itself, of those opposed to e-cigs and related stuff on the basis that it's still harmful and may even be bringing youths into nicotine addition who would otherwise have escaped it, versus the camp who observe that it is less harmful that cigarette smoking and is often a successful means of escaping the latter. There have been similar debates about ], especially in the EU.{{pb}}Lots of these editorial peeps just really blew their cool in that multi-article, multi-year editorial debate, but all of them have probably learned from it and should not be treated as if permanently banned from that topic or the whole site. "Indefinite" does not mean forever on Misplaced Pages. All it takes is a showing that they know exactly how they screwed up, and a commitment to not doing it again, with a plausible explanation of what they intend to do differently so that it will not happen again. None of these editors, including Jytdog, are vandals, trolls, "plants" from an off-site group attempting to manipulate WP content for its own ends, etc. And Jydog's error doesn't appear to have been malicious; it was just an "very wrong venue" application of something more normal in an academic context (if you know who wrote a paper, you might write or call them at their institution to have a discussion about it among colleagues).{{pb}}PPS: I do not disagree with the validity of ArbCom's decision in his case at all. It's simply not a wiki-death sentence. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 22:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
	::Thank you very much for clarifying that. I see now that I had, indeed, understood your comment as you intended it. I'll just add that I, personally, do find very serious fault with Jytdog for what he did. And as someone who spent a lot of effort over a long period of time trying to advise him to do better, I'll admit to some frustration over how he failed to really take on my advice. I'd say that his error was somewhere on the borderline between malicious and just-terribly-tone-deaf. Human beings are like that: they can be both good and bad at the same time. So I'm not disputing the substance of what Risker and Paul August said. (I've just wasted a lot of time looking for earlier discussions to link back to, and I decided to just leave it at this.) --] (]) 22:59, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
	:Please note: I did this: (un-archiving). I hope that it will help with the concerns about having a clear record. I think this is better than editorializing about it. --] (]) 23:21, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
	::You removed a statement I made as gravedancing too. Here's my concern. The talk page looks a lot to me like a gathering spot to encourage him to come back and have many people talk about why the ban should be lifted. I have no issue with this, but do not understand why this should be one sided. I was also aggressively harassed and attacked by Jytdog. I had no involvement in the arb proceeding, but very much would have if I had known about it. I think I am far from the only one like this. Is there some way we can be notified if he makes yet another attempt for a ban lift? As I said, he semi-permanently drove me away from active editing with nasty behavior that closely followed his behavior toward others. Given the Arb pages clearly say they are closed, I don't see how I can do this other than on the talk page. Or to put all of this another way, the talk page, as it stands now, is heavily a central advocacy page for the return of someone who was exceptionally nasty to me and many others, and who wants to come back. I don't have a desire to just say negative things about him, but I do think it is unfair that only one side of a recurring issue (should Jytdog be unbanned?) get a spot to make their case that is linked to the username.] (]) 04:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
	:::I had hoped that this issue was behind me. I won't repeat myself, but you can see my thinking above, in what I already said. Let me suggest that you put his talk page on your watchlist, and set your user preferences so that you get an email when any page you watch gets edited (or alternatively log in and check your watchlist more frequently than at multi-month intervals). You may also want to watch ], where public requests for changes to ArbCom decisions get posted. Beyond that, there's not really a personal notification system.
	:::It's not true that his talk page functions as a locus for advocacy on his behalf, because nothing posted there has any effect on any sort of decision-making process. No matter what people post there, those posts do nothing to get his ban lifted. It's just people commenting as well-wishers. Therefore, there is no need of any sort for you or anyone else to come there and provide advocacy for another point of view. --] (]) 19:50, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
	== IBAN expertise ==		== Re: Neural network ==
			Regarding , as serendipity would have it, I recently heard this criticism on an episode of Sean Carroll's podcast, but I don't think it was from a neuroscientist. IIRC, it was from someone outside that field. ] (]) 22:20, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
	Hello Tryptofish, I hope you are doing well. You gave me advice about IBANs in the past, is that something you would be willing to discuss by email? ] (]) 22:37, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
			:My reason for that edit summary is that the content is a criticism of ]s, not of the biological type. I have no opinion about whether or not it's an issue with artificial networks. (I made that edit in the context of a multi-editor effort that is trying to separate out the content of biological and artificial neural networks, so I was just removing a little more after another editor had, appropriately, removed a lot.) --] (]) 22:25, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
	:Hi. I'd be happy to help, but I do not normally use email in relation to Misplaced Pages (as an extra precaution for privacy). So I'm sorry that I will not be able to help you via email. However, if you can describe your question(s) in a sufficiently general way that you do not run afoul of anything and do not reveal any sort of personal information, I would be happy to try and answer you here. In case this helps, asking questions about what is or is not permitted under the terms of an IBAN, and asking advice about how to appeal an IBAN, is permitted on-wiki, so long as you do not identify, make it easy to identify, or comment upon the other account.
			::Understood. I just thought it was a weird coincidence that I recently heard it and saw your edit. ] (]) 22:29, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
	:As some purely general comments, made without knowing whether or not any of this might be relevant to what you might ask me about, here is some advice about what makes for a successful, or unsuccessful, appeal. Never use the argument that something wasn't actually your fault – even if you sincerely believe that it wasn't your fault. Accept the premise of the IBAN as fair, and make the case that what was previously a problem will no longer be a problem going forward. In my experience, a lot of editors chafe at what I just said, but it's my sincere advice to anyone who might find themselves in such a situation. Back it up with evidence of good, trouble-free editing over a period of time, and a promise to avoid any problematic topic areas.
	:I have no idea whether or not any of that was relevant to what you were going to ask me, but if someone were to ask me about that kind of thing I would say the same over email as what I just said here. --] (]) 18:40, 20 December 2020 (UTC)		:::BTW, if you don't listen to Sean Carroll's podcast, take a look at the episodes and see if any might interest you. It's particularly fun when he strikes a groove with a guest and they get into rapid-fire banter back and forth, as if they are old friends at a cocktail party. ] (]) 23:42, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
	::Thank you for your response. That's similar to what I've been told, but I haven't found my question to be precisely answered. I understand that the community just doesn't want to hear about this anymore, but I feel this must be relitigated if that's possible. ] (]) 20:29, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
	:::I read the two links you gave me. If (emphasis: ''if'') you believe that the other editor is following you around and making it difficult for you to obey your restriction, in spite of your own effort to avoid any crossing of paths, and you can convincingly back it up with diffs, you have every right to ask that the IBAN be made 2-way instead of 1-way. But that will not get the 1-way lifted. Beyond that, I'm not seeing a way for you to successfully appeal, and an unsuccessful appeal attempt would be likely to backfire against you.
	:::I know that must be a disappointing answer. And I can understand how you feel that the community is failing to really hear what you are saying. Maybe I'm failing to see what's really going on, too. But I've been around this project long enough to know that, once numerous admins have reached a conclusion, this has become an argument that you cannot win. Misplaced Pages is frequently unfair.
	:::But here's what I consider to be the good news (such as it is). It's only a ''bleep''ing website. It's not worth caring about clearing your "good name". Heck, you can tell yourself that it's Misplaced Pages's loss, not yours. Assuming there's still stuff you would enjoy editing about, within the confines of the IBAN, go for it, and don't look back. If you look over my own user page and talk page, you can see that I've been letting some stuff go, in my own ways (which may not be your ways, of course). But don't try to win fights that you cannot win. --] (]) 22:28, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
	::::FYI. ] (]) 21:21, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
	== Note to self ==		== Re: Sun in an Empty Room ==
			I just added a section on "Neuroscience" to '']'', but I would appreciate your eyes on this. In addition to this, Livingstone writes, "It is not only our perceptions of lightness and color that are local and opponent; virtually every sensory experience we have is computed by local opponent mechanisms. That is because the basic circuit of every part of our brains is the same and uses the same local inhibitory feedback mechanisms. You might think that by definition the three-dimensional, or spatial, organization of a scene would be a global property of that scene. But actually the computations about depth begin in early visual areas with small local receptive fields. You are probably aware that illuminated objects cast shadows, but if you look at a lot of paintings from different centuries, in Eastern art nobody seems to have noticed shadows until quite recently, and in Western art, Leonardo da Vinci seems to have been the first to make a systematic study of how shadows really look. For centuries artists have ignored the laws of physics, and our visual systems don’t much care. Because computations about depth from shading and illumination of objects begin with local computations, images do not have to be globally consistent in order to generate a satisfactory sensation of depth and shadow. Our visual systems do not bother to ascertain whether the laws of physics are being obeyed, because it is generally a safe assumption that they are, and even if they weren’t being obeyed there is not much use in knowing about it. So, despite the current enthusiasm for veridical light rays bouncing Newtonianly off various objects, artists can safely ignore the laws of physics, sometimes with odd consequences. If you look mindfully at medieval paintings, you are likely to find shadows that make no sense, even though they adequately fulfill their purpose of suggesting a light source and a solid body." I wasn't sure how to add or represent this part in the section I have. If you think you can add any of this to what I already have, please do so. ] (]) 21:08, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
			:Note: if you want to get credit for a DYK, feel free to formulate an ALT and add it to ]. ] (]) 21:32, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
			::I think the wording of what you wrote is fine from a neuroscience perspective. I've added some links that I think will help (and I also think that more scientific detail would be undue). I like the DYK hook that you wrote. --] (]) 22:04, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
			::Hopper is one of my favorite artists, by the way. Also, when I was an undergrad, Livingstone was a grad student, and was my TA in a course that I took. I remember her being rude to me, but I'm pretty sure she's mellowed since then. --] (]) 22:06, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
			:::The connections between Hopper and filmmaking are quite interesting. He was not just a fan of the cinema, but it seems that his frequent attendance at the movies also influenced his style (haven't seen anything written about this) which led his paintings in turn to influence film directors and others (lots about his influence on Hitchcock, for example). What do you make of the controversy on Livingstone's biography page? ] (]) 23:13, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
			::::I didn't know about that until now. I'd have to know more about the details of the specific monkey studies, to have an opinion on the ethics of ''that particular'' research. Hubel and Weisel, with whom she trained, did very important research, with real health benefits, using similar methods. I'm a defender of animal research, so long as it's done according to the law, and with proper oversight (see ]). --] (]) 22:25, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I can't remember if we discussed this before or not, but I recall, several years ago, reading about how a lot of traditional animal testing could be replicated using computer models, but it's been too long for me to remember the details. Have you heard anything about this, or do you think it's still mostly science fiction? ] (]) 08:41, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
			::::::] is definitely something useful. But a computer can only tell you about whatever has been inputted into it (even true for advanced AI, which just gets a lot more input). "Garbage in, garbage out", so to speak. So if you want to find out what actually happens in living systems, you have to examine living systems, and often this means testing in a living system. One of my earliest (and most trying) content disputes during my wiki-career was over trying to make the animal testing versus animal rights content here NPOV. (Some further details about ''that'' in ], a short way above.) --] (]) 22:20, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
			===Re: linking in hook===
	]
	] Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Although every Misplaced Pages ] is ] to do as they wish for up to 24 hours, it appears that you have gone ] without ]. This violates ] requiring that everyone ] at ] of not more than 24 hours. Please use ] to test any ] that you have for pissing off ].
			I removed the link to Edward Hopper in the hook due to several discussions we've had about this on the DYK talk page. Basically, what happens is, whenever the link to the primary article hook comes after a preceding link, the preceding link steals views away from the hook, which defeats the purpose of the hook in the first place. The point of DYK is to increase views to the linked hook, not to the other links. ] (]) 23:38, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
	Each month, one editor is ] the Misplaced Pages Pissoff Award ''(shown at right)'' for having pissed off the ] of other editors. Please ] qualified editors ].
			:]. Linking to a preceding link resulted in what can conceivably be the worst possible result—nobody visited the article I wrote. So, I learned my lesson. ] (]) 23:42, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
	--] (]) 22:39, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
			::No problem! I didn't know about this new rule. --] (]) 00:12, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
			:::Part of the blame rests on my construction of the hook. If I had put more thought into it, I could have linked Edward Hopper ''after'' the article link, but the seven day deadline was rapidly approaching and I didn't have any ALTs. If you're interested, I will ask for your help creating a new Hopper hook in the next week or two, and this time create a buffer for more lead time so that there's no rush. That way, we can link to Hopper in the next hook. ] (]) 00:24, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
			::::No big deal, as far as I'm concerned. What is more important is that you made a fine new article, thanks. --] (]) 00:32, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
			==='']''===
	== Thoughts, anyone? ==
			I will try to put something together later tonight. Stay on your toes! ] (]) 00:46, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
			:Believe me, I can barely stand upright! {{(:}} --] (]) 00:47, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
			::I have decided on '']''. Whenever you have time to come up with a hook, please do so. Otherwise, I will prod you for ideas after the article is created. Of course you are free to start or contribute. ] (]) 02:37, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
			::When you have a minute, I would appreciate it if you look into what Hopper meant when he called the woman in the painting an "egghead". This kind of slang is before my time and I'm not sure what he meant by it. My guess, based on what I've seen in terms of definitions online, is this was an old term for what we might call a "nerd" today, but I'm not sure. I think it has more academic or professorial connotations, I really don't know. I think the other reason I'm confused is because Hopper's wife said other things about the woman that make me think "egghead" means something else. It's actually a bit confusing. My guess, based on what I've read, is that he meant she was more of a bookworm, but I'm just throwing that out there. Trying to figure out what Hopper meant is not a light task. ] (]) 08:15, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
			:::Looks like according to ], Hopper might have been deriding her as a liberal? ] (]) 08:21, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
			::::OK, I found a source that I think helps answer the "egghead" question (or at least gives an RS for an opinion about it): . It's annoying to scroll through, but an interesting read. It's a transcript of a radio discussion between ] and ], about Hopper's works. You have to scroll pretty far towards the end before coming to ''Intermission'', but they talk about the meaning of "egghead" there. You can read for yourself what they say, but I think it goes much more towards "nerd", with a bit of "bookworm" or "absent-minded professor", than towards anything about politics. The idea they have is that the theater is a place with many people, but this one person stayed behind, deep in thought, while everyone else had gone out to the lobby. (Levin speculates that it is Hopper's wife Josephine, waiting for him to come back or pausing before joining him in the lobby.) It's sort of like a lonely figure who thinks deeply and is disconnected from the rest of the crowd that were in the theater. Other sources like this: , quote Josephine as describing the woman as not being the type to take her shoes off, which similarly sound to me like someone a bit awkward. I also think it's interesting that Edward and Josephine named the woman "Nora".
			::::Another thing: it looked odd to me that the image of ''Solitary Figure'' isn't the standard "thumb" format. I assume you used "gallery" because you intend to add more images? --] (]) 22:15, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Yeppers. Nice work. I started adding a bit . ] (]) 09:32, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
			{{outdent|:::::}} Have you tried coming with some hooks? The clock is ticking on this. Also, please feel free to add some of the material up above that you found. ] (]) 09:54, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
			:Looks good. I'm very limited for time, so you shouldn't wait for me. --] (]) 00:37, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
			:Maybe: DYK... that the woman in the 1963 painting ''''']''''' was described by ] as an ]? --] (]) 21:21, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
			::Ok, that's one. Can you come up with a few others? ] (]) 21:24, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
			:::Depends on time. Don't count on me for it. --] (]) 21:26, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
			::::Looks like we have another couple days. ] (]) 22:12, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Well, ''you'' have another couple days. As the old joke goes, I've stopped buying green bananas. --] (]) 23:57, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
			::::::It's funny how idioms can be regionally specific. I try to always buy green bananas in Hawaii, otherwise the bananas will go bad very fast. Not true in cooler climates, I believe. ] (]) 21:19, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Add ] to your watchlist. Thanks. ] (]) 21:59, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::And thank ''you''! --] (]) 23:26, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
			{{tps}}The intermission. Gosh, I vaguely remember that. The usher would get her brief starring-role, with a little tray of choc-ices and fruit lollies. While the big screen tempted you to the wonderfully exotic world of ] orange drink, ] popcorn, and ]. I really miss . ] (]) 22:43, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
	On a more serious note, and in the context of what I say currently at ], I've been noticing a pattern on my watchlist, and I'm curious if anyone else is observing it too. Even though I'm not really editing mainspace articles lately, I've still got lots of them on my watchlist. And lately, the entries on my watchlist are increasing edits to articles made by bots, doing gnomish corrections. Fewer major content edits made by editors, more series of automated fixes by bots.
			::''Double entendres'' duly noted. If I weren't such a dignified fish, I'd tell your wrestlers what to do with their ]. --] (]) 23:57, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
			:::{{small|ooooh, "hark at her!" I'll have you know, ] was a real brand! ] (]) 23:09, 10 February 2024 (UTC)}}
			::::<small>Sounds like ''someone'' needs an intermission! --] (]) 23:34, 10 February 2024 (UTC)</small>
			:All joking aside, intermissions ''should'' return to the cinema, not just because films are much longer these days, but because ] has so many benefits for society. This idea that everything needs to be fast, efficient, monetized, and in and out, is destroying civilization. The promise of technology is that it was supposed to free humanity from labor and monotonous work and deliver increased leisure time for people to pursue not just entertainment, but contemplation. This idea has been completely lost. An intermission forces the audience to reflect upon a work of art and think about it. It's the opposite of something like ] which makes reflection and contemplation impossible. ] (]) 22:58, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
	Anyone else thinking this, too? --] (]) 22:44, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
			::How very true. People get so tense, after three hours, they start planning ].... ] (]) 23:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
	:I've noticed this a bit, though I'm definitely one that mostly just checks my watchlist now and doesn't go out of my way for doing major edits right now. n=1, but in my case, I'm computered out by the end of the day now that if I'm going to spend any more time on it, it won't be anything involving text at least. I'm more likely to shut it down earlier in the day than I used to though. I wonder if it's similar fatigue across the board. ] (]) 23:57, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
	::Thanks. By the way, I'm glad to see you back and I hope you continue to feel better in re Covid. But yes, there could certainly be any number of reasons for editing fatigue on the part of multiple editors. --] (]) 18:33, 21 December 2020 (UTC)		:::I have that solved. I watch films on my TV, On Demand, and take bathroom breaks whenever I want to. (Whether that makes me a ], I leave to others.) --] (]) 23:51, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
			::::I honestly ''do not understand'' how anyone could sit for three hours in a single sitting. I really do like Nolan, but he's wrong on this one. He could have easily designed bathroom breaks into the film, but given how wrong he was about ''Tenet'' and his decision to place the value of the visuals and action above the audience hearing the dialogue (he's surprisingly on record about this, which is even more damning), I think he's lost touch with what audiences expect. ] (]) 23:59, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Haven't seen that one yet. But I'll admit to having ''loved'' watching ''Barbie''. --] (]) 00:05, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Oooh! Is that ?? Yummy! ] (]) 00:16, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::] --] (]) 00:19, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::And in this week's thrilling '']'', the lovely leggy ] performs a stunning ], with the equally lovely and ], to the rousing sound of the ]? Ah, . ] (]) 23:35, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Not just leggy: . --] (]) 23:50, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Oooh, how very revealing. If I were you, I'd ]! ] (]) 00:02, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Agreed. And he's not as ] as he used to be. --] (]) 00:04, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
			{{tq|better not to cite a scientist as opposed to an art critic as a source for popularity}}
	::: Actual builders of non-trivial content have largely been driven from Misplaced Pages. There is a still a bit of non-trivial content building, but for the most part it needs to be done by stealth. Posturing in the gathering darkness is the main approved activity. — ] (]) 07:12, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
	::::There are 676 stubs, 1845 start and 986 C-B-possible Good class articles for a total of 3507 articles in the AfC queue at this moment with 1935 sitting in the NPP queue. We have several highly proficient editors working AfC/NPP. According to we currently have 125,639 active users, and 40,645,602 registered users. I don't know how that compares to other time periods. ] ] ] 11:48, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
	::::: You need more information before statistics like that clarify anything. For example, the average time spent in queue, as well as objective measures of triviality. I don't know how you measure triviality, or even what I mean by it apart from things I personally find tedious. Maybe non-trivial topics tend to be picked over first. Then again, maybe non-trivial topics are too inflammatory to be mentioned at all. — ] (]) 17:16, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
	::::::Agree - when a redirect is removed the article ends up in the queue. Recently, there was a one-sentence stub being discussed relative to delete or not delete (can't remember where I saw the discussion, possibly AN) but it was kept hoping others would expand it into an article. The problem is that we don't have enough "others" who are chomping at the bit to expand stubs created by other people, especially if they're not interested in the topic. Articles on WP get created because (a) the author has an interest in the topic, (b) it's a school assignment, or (c) the author is getting paid to do it. Feel free to add whatever else you believe motivates the creation of new articles. ] ] ] 18:38, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
	:::::::Thanks for the further observations, both of you. One issue that occurs to me is that I think that en-Wiki is moving from having previously needed lots of new pages, to where that need (while never gone) is less than the need for building existing content of low quality or preliminary development into high quality and fully developed content. That's something that new pages won't capture (by design).
	:::::::I have around 1K pages on my watchlist, and I long ago stopped looking at every new watchlist entry, instead going and paying close attention whenever it looked interesting to me. But for most of the, let's say, past decade, that has always meant deciding daily that someone's extensive work on a given page today is probably not in need of my attention, while there would be just the occasional occurrence of a bot doing something bot-ish. But over the past few months, I'm pretty sure that I'm just not seeing that much in the way of people adding new sections to existing pages, outside of what look like student edits or paid edits. (The perennial dramas over user conduct and policy revisions in WP-space are unabated.) But I'm seeing very large quantities of edits by bots, doing stuff like changing "accessdate" to "access-date" in citation templates (something readers will never really benefit from, unless there's some long-term benefit to page-loading time, which I doubt will be all that significant). Maybe there are some new ways that editors can tell a bot to make a particular kind of check on a selected category of pages, and that's driving the increase. But I don't think it's ''just'' an increase in the number of bot edits, superimposed on roughly the same number of serious content edits as before. I think it's an actual trend that is shifting away from substantial content editing. If I'm right about that, and if the trend continues, it's a bad sign. --] (]) 22:18, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
	:The obvious "yes", but more importantly, it appears that there was a trigger to make us simultaneously notice this recently. I think that there has been a recent jump in robots making unneeded and sometimes bad-idea format changes. It looks like monkbot may be a big culprit there.<b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 01:56, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
	::I don't think JS Wiki Browser is considered a bot, is it? It allows for a form of automated editing (or maybe it's more like mass editing) and it's mostly wikignoming type edits which can also cause an inadvertent f-up or two from time to time, or worse if one is not careful. It could also be that the newness of WP has worn-off, not to mention the lack of proper damage control within which leaves us without. ] It's anybody's guess, I guess. ] ] ] 16:17, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
	:::Thanks again for the observations. I actually don't mind if there are more bot edits and bot-like edits, ''per se'', but the issue is that they are accompanied by fewer significant content edits.
	:::Out of curiosity, I just went through my own watchlist for the past 7 days, omitting userspace edits. Of all the other edits there, here is the breakdown:
	:::::OAbot: 38 edits
	:::::Monkbot: 26
	:::::Sporkbot: 4
	:::::Various bots that archive stuff: 6
	:::::Other bots (excluding reverts by bots): 8
	:::::Reverts (whether by editors or by bots): 22
	:::::WP: (and WT:) space edits: 19
	:::::Edits by IP editors to articles or article talk pages: 10
	:::::Edits (excluding reverts) by registered editors to articles or article talk pages: 31
	::::::Of the above 31 edits by editors, those that were marked "minor" or were indicated by the edit summary as routine and not really about significant content improvement (''ie'', spelling correction): 19 (that leaves 12).
	:::I expected to see a lot by OAbot and Monkbot, and to see a pretty large number of edits by registered editors in WP: space. But the large number of reverts surprised me. And it's really striking, from my perspective, how low the proportion is for editors doing non-routine edits to articles or substantive comments on article talk pages. Putting that another way, it sure looks like the major activities (by numbers of recent edits, in one fish's idiosyncratic watchlist) are minor gnomish work, minor gnomish work by bots, reverting stuff, and discussions in WP: space. --] (]) 20:37, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
			Sorry it came off that way, but Goldstein is a famous art essayist. Check out his biography for the details (at the bottom). He probably knows art better than most art critics. I will defer to your judgment, of course. ] (]) 23:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
	::::IMO there are probably many reasons for that (besides your selections for your watch list.) Some are naturally due to Misplaced Pages maturing, other are due to Misplaced Pages problems. The political articles have gotten so hopelessly biased, written off by the general public and dangerous for people with the "wrong" viewpoints to edit that that area which does need ongoing and new work is somewhat abandoned by good editors. Next there are many barriers to entry, making it too much trouble for the most-needed folks (experts in the fields) to bother with. First, policies and guidelines are a weird alternate universe that needs to be learned, including the hundreds of obscure ones that somebody is going to jump them with. Next, Misplaced Pages is a nasty and vicious place. To give an idea, things like wp:civility are the tools for clever warfare, not ways to avoid it. Finally it's getting more and more complex to edit. WWF answer was to dumb-down the already-easy part, while the other 98% gets ever more complex. The good news is that I think that 3-5 smart active editors working together could fix nearly anything in Misplaced Pages. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 22:37, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
	:::::I think you are spot-on with that, especially (alas) the fact of it becoming "a nasty and vicious place". Although 3–5 smart editors can indeed fix ''any'' one problem – at least until they run up against some others who try their patience – there is no way they can fix ''every'' problem. --] (]) 18:07, 7 January 2021 (UTC)		:. Oh, not a matter of how it came off. And I don't dispute that; it's a pretty erudite essay. But looking at it from the perspective of a general reader, it doesn't sound like he's an art expert, and I saw this as a way of avoiding that concern while also tightening up the sentence. --] (]) 23:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
			:See! . --] (]) 23:33, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
	::::::What I had most in mind is fixing policies and guidelines, which would reduce a whole lot of other problems. And I course, I didn't mean that they could find the time to fix 100 problems, just any 1 or 2 at a time. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 21:14, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
	::::::::::Oh, my mistake, as I was assuming it was about page edits. But the problem with fixing policies and guidelines in any significant way is that ≤5 editors will not be a functional consensus. And what policy says and what happens when there is a dispute are two different things. --] (]) 23:16, 7 January 2021 (UTC)		:Maybe we should add a DYK ALT for the Covid content? --] (]) 23:34, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
			::I don't think the content is strong enough for a good hook just yet. There's an enormous amount of sources, so maybe I will find one soon. ] (]) 23:37, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::{{ping|Tryptofish}}, I know all of the but still stand by my assertion. 3-5 smart editors working together (which never really happens in Misplaced Pages) can get any policy or guideline fixed. Of course, it also has to be a good idea. They work out the details (and settle their differences then) and all agree to actively support exactly whatever they arrived at. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 13:52, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
			:::OK. If you find a source that you like for it, maybe it could be something like "... that the 1963 painting ''''']''''' became part of a ] about the ]?" --] (]) 23:43, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::: Would these problems be easier to deal with if like {{u|Levivich}} said, administrators were merely an "implement of consensus"? We have to do something before this place be becomes . ] (]) 21:18, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
			::::Speaking only for myself, I'm looking for three things in a hook: hookiness, interestingness, and tight, solid, unambiguous sourcing. I wouldn't add "1963 painting" because we want people to be curious about what ''Intermission'' is or isn't. For example, there's a little bit of mystery involved when you read "Intermission can be viewed as a metaphor for the world as theater". I think that's one way of leaving the reader wanting to know more. Is it a painting or an actual intermission? Will it encourage readers to click the article? Does the reader need the context that it's a painting? There are different styles of hooks. Some of the best hooks are forms of double entendres or somewhat open ended; some are straightforward, no nonsense retelling of historical facts. There isn't one kind of hook. The sourcing that I'm looking at regarding the meme could be used for a hook, but I would personally wait until something better comes up. Feel free to look around and find one you like. I don't have access to Misplaced Pages Library, but if you do, that might be the place to look. ] (]) 00:01, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::I think not. If anything, I'd like to see admins do more in terms of using discretion. (For example, we have too many "bright line" blocks.) As I just replied to North, getting consensus about policy is often the place where toxicity reigns. --] (]) 23:16, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
			:::::For me too, those same three things are important. And I often feel like I don't care that much about "rules" for hooks. In ''this particular'' case, I feel like just saying "Intermission" is ''too'' mysterious, in a way that conflicts with being encyclopedic (although, again, I don't feel strongly about it). It might make me not care to click through, instead of being curious. (For that matter, I don't really agree with the idea that there shouldn't be any blue links before the main one.) But none of this is a hill that I would want to die on. I think it's something that can be settled by whoever ends up reviewing it. Actually, there is also a middle ground, between "that Illumination" and "that the 1963 painting Illumination": "that the painting Illumination". Saying what it is, is more useful than specifying the year (although, in the case of a Covid hook, the year provides information about the foreshadowing aspect). Whatever. --] (]) 00:40, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
			::::::DYK is one of the few places where you can submit short, somewhat ambiguous hooks that draw interest and views. I wouldn’t describe it as "unencyclopedic", it’s more of a style for creating clickbait and driving readers to your article. In any case, I just found a new source to expand other sections of the article.. If you feel like taking a look, have at it, as there’s some good stuff we can use and you might find a hook there as well. ] (]) 00:47, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I've read it, and it's a good read about the Hoppers overall, but there's only a brief, passing mention of ''Intermission'', unless I missed something else. --] (]) 23:01, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::You're right, but the interesting part is the quotes from O'Doherty. You can find the full interview . That's what the NYT cites. ] (]) 23:31, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Note, I've got to say, I really enjoy the way O'Doherty writes. ] (]) 23:34, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
			== Did you notice Andrzejbanas reverted an edit of yours at ANI? ==
	== This year passed slower than Christmas! ==
			Not sure why and I can’t undo it and as I’m on my iPad won’t try to fix it? If there wasn’t a good reason I’m tempted to block. ] ] 19:21, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
	{|style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 3px solid #fceb92;"
			:No need to block. It looks like one of those wiki-glitches that keep happening with edit conflicts at ANI. They posted a good faith edit, but in so doing reverted my edit and an edit by someone else. And tracking that down froze my computer. Sheesh! (But thanks for checking with me!) --] (]) 19:26, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
	|rowspan="1" style="align: top; padding: 5px;" | ]
			::Good to know. I think others, including me, are having a freezing problem.] ] ] 19:30, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
	<center>🔔🎁⛄️🎅🏻 <small>] ] ] 04:15, 24 December 2020 (UTC)</small></center>
			:::The ANI edits are all fixed now, I think. Thanks again. --] (]) 19:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
	|}
			::::Glad to hear that. ] ] 20:07, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
	{{clear}}
	:Thanks, Atsme! This year passed slower than molasses, and was far stickier (and ickier) too. Here's to a much happier new year! --] (]) 18:57, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
	==Yo Ho Ho==		== Wha’cha think ==
	<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:blue; background-color:AliceBlue; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">] ]
			A ? ] ] ] 12:41, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
	] (]) is wishing a foaming mug of ]! Whether you celebrate your hemisphere's ] or ], ], ], ], ], ] or even the ], this is a special time of year for almost everyone! <br />
			:{{buttinsky}} It seems to have been promising ], and the cynic in me would say that 'shows promise' is journal-speak for 'doesn't work'. ] (]) 12:54, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
			::Um, I forgot what we were talking about... OK, more seriously, I agree with BC. Very unlikely to have lasting benefits. Good for diagnosing the blood clots in my leg (ultrasound, that is), but amyloid plaques aren't kidney stones (so to speak). --] (]) 21:04, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
			::Putting that another way, breaking up plaques won't reestablish disrupted synapses. --] (]) 22:53, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
			:::Then again, when it comes to neuroscience, I'm apparently not constructive: (but ). --] (]) 22:53, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
			::::Gratifying. ] (]) 06:52, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
			== No hard feelings ==
	<small>Spread the holiday cheer by adding {{]:]}} to your friends' talk pages</small>.
	{{clear}}
	</div>
	:Thanks, ]! (By the way, you got a Christmas-y plug on the NPR Sunday Puzzle: ) --] (]) 19:02, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
	::Thanks. I reluctantly admit that many years ago, perhaps as far back as my youth, I thought "Donder" was "Donner." I think that some people still use "Donner." In retrospect, I wonder whether a version of "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" (Gene Autry?) had something to do with that. Best wishes. ] (]) 23:13, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
			Hi Tryptofish. Just wanted to stop by and let you know that I have no hard feelings towards you over our recent disagreements. I am glad we have avoided personalizing the dispute, and I look forward to collaborating with you in the future! <b style="font-family:Courier New;">]]</b>&nbsp;(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;he/him) 22:34, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
	== Why? ==
			:Thanks and – of course! – I have no hard feelings to you, either. For those watching here, we are talking about ]. --] (]) 22:37, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
			== RFA2024 update: no longer accepting new proposals in phase I ==
	Seriously - I don’t understand it. Please stop bringing them up. They can’t respond, they definitely see it, and it certainly doesn’t help anything. ] (]) 22:58, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
	:I'm sorry that you don't understand it. And you clearly don't understand. At all.
	:What we are talking about here is about my posting this: .
	:So, let's have a little poll!
	::How many people here think that what I wrote was:
	:::(a) an attack on SashiRolls, or
	:::(b) an extended comment at ], in which I expressed sympathy for O3000 and gave advice to El C, and called for less "bright-line" administrative action, and more attention to BLP in mainspace content, and for editors to just generally treat one another with more kindness?
	::Mr Ernie then replied to me with this: . How many people think that:
	:::(c) Mr Ernie was right that my comment "had no obvious reason or point", or
	:::(d) Mr Ernie made a personal attack on me, and contributed nothing in that comment to the ARCA discussion that was ongoing?
	:--] (]) 23:13, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
	::I don't think what you wrote was an attack, but I agree it's not terribly obvious why you're bringing up another situation without providing greater context on how it applies to the current one. Without this, it just feels like a "trust me, I think you should do something else for this situation, just like another time where the initial response got modified later". Personally, I wouldn't have written this reply as a comment in the clarification and amendment request, because I don't think the arbitrators need my view on this matter. Either they'll infer some additional context and gain more insight, or they won't. (Essentially it's not very important whether or not it seems obvious to me.) ] (]) 05:45, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
	:::Thanks, isaacl, for looking at this from both sides. I'll certainly admit to being as prone as anyone else to sometimes failing to realize that what may be self-evident to me might not be self-evident to others, and it's helpful that you have drawn my attention to that here. The context in which I wrote the comment was that some of the Arbs were saying that they probably would not take formal action, in part because of what {{u|El C}} had been posting about what he was prepared to do. Therefore, my comment was in part to say that I think that El C should do those things he was considering, to give him more reasons to do so, and to encourage the Arbs to let it go at that. (I've pinged El C because I'm mentioning him, although he need not necessarily reply, but I just feel that he should be aware.) In terms of giving him those "more reasons", I think that his reply to me, , indicates that he understood what I was getting at, and agreed in some parts and disagreed in others, which is fine with me. --] (]) 19:15, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
	::::And I think this is worth noting in that regard: . --] (]) 20:05, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
	::Thinking it over more, the grave-dancing comment wasn't necessary and I'll strike that. ] (]) 08:23, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
	:::Thank you for that, Mr Ernie, I appreciate that. --] (]) 19:15, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
			Hey there! This is to let you know that phase I of the ] is now '''no longer accepting new proposals'''. Lots of proposals remain open for discussion, and the current round of review looks to be on a good track towards making significant progress towards improving ]'s structure and environment. I'd like to give my heartfelt thanks to everyone who has given us their idea for change to make RfA better, and the same to everyone who has given the necessary feedback to improve those ideas. The following proposals remain open for discussion:
			* ''']''', initiated by {{noping|HouseBlaster}}, provides for the addition of a text box at ] reminding all editors of our policies and enforcement mechanisms around decorum.
	==Mikhail Lebedev==
			* ''']''' and ''']''', initiated by {{noping|Barkeep49}} and {{noping|Usedtobecool}}, respectively, provide for trials of discussion-only periods at RfA. The first would add three extra discussion-only days to the beginning, while the second would convert the first two days to discussion-only.
			* ''']''', initiated by {{noping|SilkTork}}, provides for a trial of RfAs without threaded discussion in the voting sections.
			* ''']''' and ''']''', initiated by {{noping|BilledMammal}}, provide for allowing users to be selected as provisional admins for a limited time through various concrete selection criteria and smaller-scale vetting.
			* ''']''', initiated by {{noping|Lee Vilenski}}, provides for the "General discussion" section being broken up with section headings.
			* ''']''', initiated by {{noping|Reaper Eternal}}, provides for the requirement that allegations of policy violation be substantiated with appropriate links to where the alleged misconduct occured.
			* ''']''', ''']''', and ''']''', initiated by {{noping|City of Silver}}, {{u|Ritchie333}}, and {{u|HouseBlaster}}, respectively, provide for reducing the discretionary zone, which currently extends from 65% to 75%. The first would reduce it 65%–70%, the second would reduce it to 50%–66%, and the third would reduce it to 60%–70%.
			* ''']''', initiated by {{noping|Novem Lingaue}}, provides for periodic, privately balloted admin elections.
			* ''']''', initiated by {{noping|Kusma}}, provides for the creation of some minimum suffrage requirements to cast a vote.
			* ''']''' and ''']''', initiated by {{noping|Thebiguglyalien}} and {{noping|Soni}}, respectively, provide for community-based admin desysop procedures. 16 would desysop where consensus is established in favor at the ]; 16c would allow a petition to force reconfirmation.
			* ''']''', initiated by {{noping|BilledMammal}}, would extend the recall procedures of 16 to bureaucrats.
			* ''']''', initiated by {{noping|SchroCat}}, provides for "on-call" admins and 'crats to monitor RfAs for decorum.
			* ''']''', initiated by {{noping|theleekycauldron}}, provides for lowering the RfB target from 85% to 75%.
			* ''']''', initiated by {{noping|SportingFlyer}}, provides for a more robust alternate version of the ].
			* ''']''', initiated by {{noping|Femke}}, provides for the requirement that nominees be extended-confirmed in addition to their nominators.
			* ''']''', initiated by {{noping|WereSpielChequers}}, provides for the creation of a training course for admin hopefuls, as well as periodic retraining to keep admins from drifting out of sync with community norms.
			* ''']''', initiated by {{noping|HouseBlaster}}, tightens restrictions on multi-part questions.
			To read proposals that were closed as unsuccessful, please see ]. You are cordially invited once again to participate in the open discussions; when phase I ends, phase II will review the outcomes of trial proposals and refine the implementation details of other proposals. Another notification will be sent out when this phase begins, likely with the first successful close of a major proposal. Happy editing! ] (] • she/her), via:
	We urgently need a Misplaced Pages article on the famous neuorscientist, Mikhail Lebedev. Can you please finish the article on Mikhail Lebedev this weekend? It needs to be nominated as a good or featured article within 30 days. I Already started. Please see ]. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 01:18, 23 January 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Note: It looks like this is a new and troubled editor who has been indeffed since posting this message to me. --] (]) 18:58, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
	::Come on now, Trypto, surely you could manage a teeny-weeny new article, it's not ], you know. ] (]) 19:04, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
	:::Ha! I just saw the corresponding section on ''your'' talk page, which is undeniably prettier than what I have here. --] (]) 19:05, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
	:::Anyway, it looks like Rushin' hacking to me. --] (]) 19:08, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
	::::Ah yes, just like in the . **sob**. ] (]) 19:12, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
	:::::And now ''I'' need some brain surgery, so I can un-see that link! --] (]) 19:18, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
			] (]) 10:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
	== Not sure if you've seen the latest or watch True Facts at all ==
			<!-- Message sent by User:Theleekycauldron@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_adminship/2024_review/Mailing_list&oldid=1213660347 -->
			== Appreciation ==
	Wish I had thought of back in the day!! ] ] ] 00:56, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
	:Beautiful to look at, indeed. Are there Untrue Facts? (Don't answer that!) I don't know what you mean by "this approach". --] (]) 20:00, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
	::Ha! By "this approach", I was referring to raw humor vs the stuffy PBS academic-style I was forced to use, not to mention various other broadcast restrictions. A few editors/producers toyed a bit with humor in the studio (off-the-clock) and we did some crazy stuff, not unlike the with its NPR style, but we dared not go astray, at least not to the extent of ''True Facts''. Commercial network programming was different, but back then, I had my own studio and called the shots. For fun, we'd put together shorts with nothing but out-takes or of ] (my fav), ], ](the genius), and even some of my own Water Sports Weekly shows - boy, did we have bloopers! I was also writing a humorous short story series for Bass'n Gal magazine & In Fisherman but it was a time when women were just beginning to break the stereotypical mold of the Stepford wife who dared not venture into a man's sports world. With the advent of digital broadcasting/recording, plus the www, everything changed. Doors flew open to unlimited possibilities, but of late, some of those doors have been slammed shut, particularly in light of recent censorship activities by the Big Tech 3 (Twitter, FB & YouTube/Google) - not saying that some wasn't necessary. Speech (text) is now being patrolled by thought police - it's happening here on WP - and it can be daunting at times; the liberal arts aren't quite as liberal as they used to be...at least, not in certain areas. I'm predicting here now so, mark my words, if you'd like, but I foresee the move toward decentralization as the way of the future, and it will bring big change from the way we're accustomed to doing things now. Are you familiar with ] ] ] 14:11, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
	:::That bloopers reel is hilarious (lucky for fish like me)! And '']'' may be the best name I've ever heard for a magazine. As for me, I have made it a life-long rule for myself to stay off – completely – all social media sites. I may not have much sanity left, but I want to preserve what little I still have. (Also in that vein, I'm not commenting about what you said about thought police etc., OK?) --] (]) 18:15, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
	::::No pressure about responding to all of my comments - be happy. I have some extra pills if you need some - Ibdonewithol (500mg) and Amnotanazitol (50-500mg). Sorry, but I ran out of the Trimyazagain Uprick (30mg) and have to get a refill, maybe a stronger dose, but I don't think they would be a good option for you right now, anyway. ] ] ] ] 12:12, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
			You persistently remain able to disagree with fellow editors while embracing kindness and patience. A few weeks of less than kind comments had worn me down. You and another editor disagreeing with me kindly did wonders for me feeling better about the project. Thank you. Best, ~ ] (]) 22:03, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
	== New essay ==
			:And you are ''very'' welcome. (This is about: .) I'm sorry that you felt worn down, but I certainly know from personal experience how that feels. I guess saying what I said there is a big part of what I see me doing in this project. --] (]) 23:03, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
			::You are great at so much more than just being kind but I do see that as a major part of your contributions to this encyclopedia community. You have always been kind and understanding even the few times we disagreed. You even managed to get me to see your points and adjust my wiki-philosophy about somethings. Keeping the heat down in discussions will almost always yield the same results for the discussion without the necessary drama associated with raised tempers and hurt feelings. I've always seen you as somewhat of a "smoother", whether it's high points or low points, you bring everything level. We are here ultimately to build and improve on this encyclopedia. However, any one who thinks that building the community in the process is not equally important is foolish and the only way to do that is through civil interactions. It's not what you accomplish in life but how you accomplished what you did. You, my friend, are a big part of why I am here. So, I celebrate you with Pbritti. --]] 11:41, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
			:::{{blush}} And ''you'' just made my day! Thanks ''so'' much for that! --] (]) 21:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
			:::(Even when what I said doesn't work: . --] (]) 21:26, 20 March 2024 (UTC))
			::::Every editor is a human being. We don't have to always be in agreement but we can always operate with understanding. There are so many ways to get our point across without being mean. We shouldn't need a policy to tell us to be nice and respectful in our interactions. --]] 12:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I agree. And after a bit of time for it to sink in, I really appreciate your description of "smoothing". I had never thought about it that way before, but now that you pointed it out to me, I like it very much, and feel honored that you would say it about me. It also occurs to me to say that I often see the queries from new and confused editors on your talk page. Myself, I'm not particularly wired to explain things patiently to people who are confused about such basic stuff, but I really do recognize the value of what you do in helping those editors get on track. Well done! --] (]) 22:37, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
			::::::But you do know that you are always welcome, as is any editor that watches my talk page, to comment if you have thoughts to contribute. If you didn't know that you do now. You have been a steadfast support for me when I needed advice and you've been a valued friend when I needed words of encouragement or a quick laugh. Even when we disagreed I have always taken your words to heart and evaluated my position because I am confident in your advice and trust it. You are a true gem. Thank you for all you do. --]] 15:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
			==DYK for Intermission (Hopper)==
	I've started ], still in the draft stage. Revisions, advice, suggestions, all welcome. --] (]) 20:39, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
			{{ivmbox
	:Damn SpellChecker didn't catch it!! I can't believe I did that...OMG! I was up at 3:00 am, which goes to prove that by the time I started tweaking, it was actually time for me to take a nap. ] ] ] 18:20, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
			|image = Updated DYK query.svg
	::For those playing along at home, this is about "principal" and "principle". In any case, no worries, and thanks! --] (]) 18:27, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
			|imagesize=40px
			|text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ''... that ]'s 1963 painting ''''']''''' can be viewed as a metaphor for the ]?'' The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ]. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page <small>(], )</small>, and the hook may be added to ] after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the ].
			}}<!-- Template:UpdatedDYK --> ] (]) 00:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			{{DYK views|7,819|651.6|March 2024|Intermission (Hopper)}} ] (] • ]) (he/]) 03:28, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
	Moved now to WP: space. --] (]) 22:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)		:Congratulations! ] (]) 03:15, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			::And to you, too! You started the page, and I just came along for the ride. (We are now both officially ].) --] (]) 18:07, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			:::I just read something funny in Kandel's ''Principles of Neural Science'' (Sixth Edition): "Caffeine can produce mild physical dependence but does not result in compulsive use." Have the authors ever visited a Starbucks at 7 in the morning? ] (]) 20:40, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			::::Or me, at any time of the morning before I have my cup! Definitely should be Schedule 1! (Not to name drop, but I met ], and he's a lovely person. Pseudo-related, but I added an image to our page on ].) --] (]) 20:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Good work, that's a nice image. I'm reading about how "BMIs can restore lost brain processing capabilities". Couldn't this also be used to augment the problem-solving process in healthy brains? For example, could you give ten practicing climate scientists BMI "caps" that would allow them to come up with better solutions for stabilizing the temperature of the Earth within a shorter time-frame (decades instead of centuries)? Or is this just a science fiction short story that I'm working on? ] (]) 21:11, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Thanks. (I'm taking BMI to mean brain-machine interface.) In theory, this should be possible. Of course, it's way too early in the experimental process to do this now (especially for a noninvasive cap that one could put on and then take off, as opposed to inserting stuff through someone's skull), and there are immense ethical considerations. --] (]) 21:16, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Aww, c'mon Trypto. Misplaced Pages needs ]!! ] (]) 21:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Watch out, Viriditas, Martin has a ] he wants to sell us. On the other hand, ] says that, if necessary, he's going to vote for Biden's head in a jar of blue liquid if the alternative is Trump, which is pretty much how I feel. --] (]) 21:23, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::{{small|(Um, would it improve ] at all?) ] (]) 21:35, 28 March 2024 (UTC)}}
			::::::::::{{small|I dunno. I thought Maher's memory was pretty good already. /deliberate evasion of the question. --] (]) 21:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)}}
			:::::::::::{{small|LOL. ] .... I'll bid ]! ] (]) 21:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC)}}
			::::::::::::{{small|] --] (]) 22:01, 28 March 2024 (UTC)}}
			:::::::::::::Thank you, Trypto, for making me laugh out loud. ] (]) 22:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::{{(:}} Whenever I think of the upcoming US election, I think we ''all'' need a bit of cheering up. --] (]) 22:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::{{small|Don't worry... you're ] there. I'm personally interested in psychedelics, too. But ] just doesn't look good on me... **sob** ] (]) 22:17, 28 March 2024 (UTC)}}
			::::::::::::::::{{small|] --] (]) 22:22, 28 March 2024 (UTC)}}
			:::::::::::::::::{{small|But if you are looking.... there's ] in stock? Only £5M, and you get a free peerage ]! Apply: ] (]) 12:29, 29 March 2024 (UTC)}}
			::::::::::::::::::{{small|See! He ''is'' trying to sell us a bridge! --] (]) 20:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)}}
			::::::::As for those brain caps, if you put "transcranial" into our search box, numerous results come up for technologies that exist so far. --] (]) 21:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
	== Seeking Wikimarkup wisdom ==
			:::::::::Right. I guess what I'm getting at is what does it really mean to augment problem-solving? We were just talking about caffeine, which is known to help some people with focus and attention, but when you talk to people who have given it up, one begins to wonder if that is true across the board, instead of just in specific circumstances and individuals. We have many examples of people like Paul Erdős, who were known to take stimulants to help them work on math problems, but this might just be another example similar to people who drink coffee, albeit a bit more extreme. So, beyond simple so-called nootropics and cognitive enhancers, could a BMI, at the end of the day, really help with problem-solving, and how could it conceivably work in theory? I ask, because when I read about people who have worked on difficult ideas, one thing that always seems to come up is this idea that you have to go out of your mind (not in terms of mental illness, but the notion of getting outside of your own head) to find the solution. Some people have characterized this as thinking outside of the box, while others have said that they had to set aside their training in one discipline to see it anew from afar, such as thinking about the problem from another discipline altogether, even one they weren't trained in. Then they could take those insights and apply them to their own work. This reminds me of what researchers found in study subjects who took LSD, that "disparate regions in the brain communicate with each other when they don't normally do so", although trying to apply these results to creativity research isn't really recognized by most scientists. ] (]) 21:34, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::These are very interesting questions, I think. A lot of it comes down to scale or focus. What I mean is that we aren't going to augment problem-solving by stimulating or modulating the brain as a whole, or even a larger-than-microscopic portion of it. It probably requires getting to the scale of single neurons. For one thing, we don't know which ones. And for another, we can just recently do that by inserting electrodes surgically, but we are years away from being able to triangulate magnetic fields or electrical currents with that kind of resolution. And it's not even a matter of getting out of accustomed patterns of thought, but of doing that in a way that actually draws upon some high-level reasoning or database, as opposed to just feeling "stimulated" or "uninhibited". As I've said in the past, I'm personally interested in psychedelics. But I've also recently become concerned about ethical and methodological issues that have been reported about the earlier studies (). --] (]) 21:48, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Whenever I have this discussion, I'm always drawn back to the ] and ]. Results are still accumulating. ] (]) 22:03, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Yes, definitely. --] (]) 22:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
			== On this day... ==
	Hi there Tryptofish, once upon a time I saw you pull off what seemed to me ] that I'm still not sure I understand. Now I've got a similar wikimarkup problem that I'm wondering if you can easily solve (or just as valuable, let me know if it's unsolvable): I've been writing a ] that includes side-by-side boxes listing FA/GAs that have been promoted and are being reviewed (]). My dream is for those boxes to appear the same height and vertically aligned, even when they contain different amounts of text. The sad way I do that now is by adding as many <nowiki><br></nowiki> as it takes to get the two to be the same height on my screen. But of course on narrower and wider screens they get out of alignment. Do you know of a superior way to set this up? Any thoughts/guidance would be much appreciated. More importantly I hope you're keeping well. All the best. ] (]) 05:44, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
	:Yes, I'm keeping well, and I hope you are too. Here's how I do it:
	{|
	|style="vertical-align: top;"|{{quote frame|text='''Example1'''<p>line1line1line1line1line1line1line1line1line1line1line 1line1line1line1line1line1line1}}
	|style="vertical-align: top;" style="width: 50%;"|{{quote frame|text='''Example2'''<p>line2line2line2line2line2line2line2line2line2 line2line2line2line2line2line2line2line2}}
	|}
	:Obviously, you should go to the edit window to see the markup, which you can just copy, and substitute the real text for the placeholder terms. The idea is basically to use the "quote frame" template within a table. I've used it in multiple places (because I often find it useful to discuss stuff side-by-side), and it seems to work pretty consistently for me. As for vertically aligning texts of different amounts, you can see that this uses the "vertical-align: top" style, so it ''should'' do that, but I'm not confident that this will really happen if the two sides are very different. (I don't know if there's a way to apply that style across the entire table. Any talk page watchers with advice on that?) I hope that helps! --] (]) 23:30, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
			Has it really been another year gone by? . --] (]) 19:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
	*I typically consult {{u|RexxS}} who has a huge bag of tricks, and he's a luau expert, or maybe it's lua - I can't remember. I also recently found the user page of {{u|Timeshifter}} who has all the appearances of a table magician; not that he does tricks on a table...but you know what I mean. ] ] ] 23:43, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
	{{od}}
	{{re|Ajpolino|Atsme}} The problem with tables is that they eventually produce horizontal scroll-bars when the window gets narrow (e.g. on mobile devices). If you want to maximise accessibility for screen readers as well as allow the two boxes to sit side-by-side on wide screens while moving one-under-the-other on narrow screens, you need something like this:
	<div style="display:flex;flex-flow:row wrap;justify-content:space-evenly">
	<div style="margin:0.5em; padding:0.4em; border:1px solid grey; background-color:#F3F3FF;">
	'''Newly recognized content'''
	{{plainlist |
	* {{icon|GA}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Maxim Masiutin}}, reviewed by {{noping|Vaticidalprophet}}</small>
	* {{icon|GA}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Andrew nyr}}, reviewed by {{noping|HickoryOughtShirt?4}}</small>
	}}
	</div>
			:Speaking of time, when I first heard the Bangles cover Simon & Garfunkel’s 1966 song "]" in 1987, I knew it was going to be a classic. I’m happy to say that the song has made a resurgence in recent years, in small part due to ''Stranger Things'', the best show you’ve never seen! ] (]) 00:21, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
	<div style="margin:0.5em; padding:0.4em; border:1px solid grey; background-color:#F3F3FF;">
	'''Nominated for review'''
	{{plainlist |
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Doug Coldwell}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Akrasia25}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Ozzie10aaaa}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|David notMD}}, under review by {{noping|HaEr48}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Andrew nyr}}, under review by {{noping|HickoryOughtShirt?4}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Steve M.}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small> nom. {{noping|Vaticidalprophet}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|FARC}} ] <small>Currently a ].</small><br>
	* {{icon|FAR}} ] <small>] of impending ] at talk.</small><br>
	* {{icon|FAR}} ] <small>] of impending ] at talk.</small><br>
	* {{icon|FAR}} ] <small>] of impending ] at talk.</small><br>
	* {{Icon|FAR}} ] <small>] of impending ] at talk.</small>
	}}
	</div>
	</div>
	I could create a template to hide all the css styling if you would like, but the {{tag|div}} tags don't actually cause problems and they help interested editors to learn about the markup. See what you think. --] (]) 00:31, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
	:The way that looks on my display is that the two boxes are one above the other, not side-by-side. --] (]) 00:51, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
	::
	:: That's how it should look on a display that's not wide enough to display the two boxes at their default width. It happens around a window width of 1300px. If you want to keep them side-by-side at the expense of having lines wrap inside the boxes, you can set a width for each box:
	<div style="display:flex;flex-flow:row wrap;justify-content:space-evenly">
	<div style="margin:0.4em; padding:0.4em; border:1px solid grey; background-color:#F3F3FF; max-width:26em;">
	'''Newly recognized content'''
	{{plainlist |
	* {{icon|GA}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Maxim Masiutin}}, reviewed by {{noping|Vaticidalprophet}}</small>
	* {{icon|GA}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Andrew nyr}}, reviewed by {{noping|HickoryOughtShirt?4}}</small>
	}}
	</div>
			In the good old days, we would have renamed WP:Talk page guidelines as WP:Toilet paper guidelines. In a nutshell: Over, not under. --] (]) 20:29, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
	<div style="margin:0.4em; padding:0.4em; border:1px solid grey; background-color:#F3F3FF; max-width:26em;">
	'''Nominated for review'''
	{{plainlist |
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Doug Coldwell}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Akrasia25}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Ozzie10aaaa}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|David notMD}}, under review by {{noping|HaEr48}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Andrew nyr}}, under review by {{noping|HickoryOughtShirt?4}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small>nom. {{noping|Steve M.}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|GAN}} ] <small> nom. {{noping|Vaticidalprophet}}</small><br>
	* {{icon|FARC}} ] <small>Currently a ].</small><br>
	* {{icon|FAR}} ] <small>] of impending ] at talk.</small><br>
	* {{icon|FAR}} ] <small>] of impending ] at talk.</small><br>
	* {{icon|FAR}} ] <small>] of impending ] at talk.</small><br>
	* {{Icon|FAR}} ] <small>] of impending ] at talk.</small>
	}}
	</div>
	</div>
	:: You might have to jigger with that depending on the content, though. A width of 29em allows side-by-side down to about 1000px window width. --] (]) 05:02, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
	:::Thanks RexxS. Ajpolino, I hope there's something within these options that works for you. --] (]) 19:03, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
	::::Excellent! Thank you both very much. Lord knows how long it would've taken me to sort this out on my own. Cheers. ] (]) 02:57, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
			== Collaboration requested ==
	== Change is on the horizon ==
			I recall you are very good at distilling ideas and concepts into smaller, bite-size chunks. You frequently do this, for example, to avoid undue weight. I need your kind of expertise to help do this with content about Babe Ruth. I have posted a brief comment over at ]. There is a link in that discussion to sources and content. No hurry on this. I hope we can continue this on the Babe Ruth talk page. ] (]) 00:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
	I'll leave this in case you haven't seen it. There are also changes proposed for the number of community board members and how they are elected. Oh, and here's the Here's a little brain teaser - does our usage of the term ''virtual reality'' affect how we use ''virtually everything''? 🤔
			:Will do. --] (]) 17:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
	:Hi Atsme. I actually had seen all of those things already, and decided that I probably don't care much about any of them. And I'll settle for some virtuous reality, of which I see all too little.
	:On a more serious note, I've been seeing a lot of news about horrid weather conditions in Texas. I hope that all is well at your ranch. --] (]) 19:43, 17 February 2021 (UTC)		:I've looked, and I'm not sure what exactly you want me to do. I can see that it's about adding some additional content about his cause of death, either at the bio page, or at the page about his death and funeral, and the latter is under GA review. It sounds like you'd like me to look at a proposed passage somewhere, and see if I can copyedit it to make it more succinct, but I don't know where to find it. I'd be happy to do it, once I know what to do. --] (]) 18:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
			::What, you can't read minds? ] (]) 20:19, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::I already knew that you would say that. (joke) When you have something specific, just let me know. --] (]) 20:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::I will briefly summarize the issue: our featured article on ] doesn't mention anything about Ruth's lifelong use of tobacco, which may have contributed to his death from nasopharyngeal cancer. This is not surprising since Ruth died in 1948, and the topic about Ruth and tobacco didn't enter the literature until much later, after 1987. (The larger background context of this health discussion starting from 1964 until 2014 is covered by the CDC in , so if you want to refer back to that I have linked it for you.)
			::::It looks like the precipitating event for bringing Ruth into this discussion started the year previously, when in 1986, Surgeon General C. Everett Koop published ''The Health Consequences of Involuntary Smoking'', the first official report to detail the "harmful effects of secondhand smoke". My understanding is that this was the clarion call for the beginning of smoking bans and smoke-free spaces, and one can plainly see a steady decline in smoking from 1986 levels until today. Late in 1987, Randal J. Thomas and John D. Cantwell, both of the Georgia Baptist Medical Center in Atlanta, sent a signed letter to ''JAMA'' (v258i15) which was quite ingenious in its scope.
	::What a mess they had to deal with in Texas!! Frozen water buckets...sub-zero temps...snow...not what we're accustomed to in the big state. I do feel a little guilty being here and not there to help, but I'd probably just be pushed out of the way, so it makes no difference. This is the time of year babies are born - two new foals have already hit the ground. My granddaughter is doing well at OSU as a member of their Equestrian Team (she's there on a scholarship) - very proud of her. She's in the early studies working toward a medical career. What a surprise. I thought she'd be going into chemistry, but I guess she'll have her share of that, too. Anyway, relative to me going back to Texas, I prefer to not increase my risks. Here on Bonaire we had fewer than 5 cases until they allowed more European visitors in, and now that number has increased. Add to that, throughout the Caribbean, and well...it's sad. Sunshine does wonders for one's health and state of mind. I've got a boat load of new pictures to upload and that's keeping me busy along with my work at OTRS, NPP training, NPP/AfC reviewing, etc. I'm just happy to know they weathered the storm in Texas, and that the ranch is still in one piece. Happy editing! ] ] ] 15:58, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
	:::Well, I'm glad for you that it isn't any worse than that, and I'm glad that the ranch is still in one piece. Three cheers for sunshine! --] (]) 19:10, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
			::::As you know, these letters to ''JAMA'' often highlight patient case studies that physicians bring to the attention of the wider community for discussion. Thomas & Cantwell structured their 1987 letter in this format, using language such as "A case in point is that of a 53-year-old man with an 18-month history of progressive dysphonia and dysphagia, accompanied by weight loss and easy fatigability. He had had no significant prior medical problems." You can see where this is going. "Significant health risk factors included the heavy use of chewing tobacco and alcohol for nearly 45 of his 53 years, along with smoking approximately 30 cigars daily for about 30 years". Nothing out of the ordinary, right?
	== Precious anniversary ==
	{{User QAIbox/auto|years=Eight}} --] (]) 08:19, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
	:Thanks! --] (]) 19:20, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
	:: Today, we have a DYK about ], who stood up for future with the striking school children when he was in his 90s, - a model, - . - Thank you for your position in the arb case request, - I feel I have to stay away, but there are conversations further down on the page, in case of interest, - in a nutshell: "... will not improve kindness, nor any article". --] (]) 14:46, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
	{{clear}}
			::::By the end of the letter we are surprised to discover that the writers aren't discussing their patient at all, but rather "In life, his markers were towering home runs and all-night parties; in death, his marker read simply "George Herman 'Babe' Ruth." So, this was a brilliant way of reopening the Babe Ruth case file, particularly during a new era of tobacco health research. From this initial letter came more, and from those, many new sources about Babe Ruth's death.
	== Admin Abuse cases ==
			::::Nadim B. Bikhazi eventually got permission from Ruth's family to study the autopsy files in this regard. Bikhazi's article, "'Babe' Ruth's Illness and Its Impact on Medical History" was published in ''The Laryngoscope'' in 1999,, with Maloney et. al publishing similar material in 2008 ("A comprehensive analysis of Babe Ruth's head and neck cancer"). Although you may find relevant material in those links, I have also summarized the proposed content over ].
	I have a general point I'd like to float by you. You wrote at ARC {{tqq|There's a danger here, that ArbCom is becoming somewhere where an editor who has a gripe with an admin and who can come up with some bad-temper diffs can come to RfAr and the Committee will take the attitude that there is "a low bar" for admin abuse cases, and once the case is accepted, the outcome is predetermined.}} I think you identify the right tension but come to the opposite conclusion as me. If ArbCom accepts cases where there might be no evidence of anything wrong then some of the time it should come up with a final decision of "nothing to see here folks". If, on the other hand, it requires a fair amount of evidence that something is wrong, it would be amazing if cases didn't end with some sort of sanction (if only a reprimand or the like). So if the committee actually acts on the premise that there is a low bar for admin abuse cases that should be, in my view, the opposite of the idea that once a case is accepted the outcome is predetermined. Best, ] (]) 22:46, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
	:Thanks for raising that with me here, that's nice of you to reach out that way. If we come to opposite conclusions, then so be it. But I actually think that a good outcome of my comment would be that if ArbCom – not just you individually, but the whole Committee – would be persuaded that if you do take the case you will do something along the lines of what some other editors have commented on, on the case request page: to mediate/arbitrate between the two aggrieved parties, as opposed to issuing a desysop.
	:It's such a complicated issue with admin abuse cases: I actually found myself thinking that the community process that TonyB initiated could end up being a "nicer" alternative to ArbCom, which led quickly to my having cognitive dissonance. En-wiki has swung very far from where it was, when I worked on a failed proposal for community desysops eleven years ago. Back then, I felt like ArbCom was ineffectual in dealing with admins who had passed RfA when RfA was comparatively trivial. Now, the community treats RfA much differently, and ArbCom has become much more effective.
	:In any case, I still hope you all decline, but if you accept, I hope you do it with a light hand. --] (]) 23:00, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
	::For me, if I vote to accept the case, it will be for what Thrydulf said: {{tqq|I think it's clear that the specific dispute between RexxS and ProcrastinatingReader (PR) is at best premature and, on it's own, does not require ArbCom's involvement. That is not what ArbCom is being asked to investigate though, it is being asked to investigate a long-standing pattern of behaviour of which the dispute involving PR is simply the latest (and not most egregious) example.}} I think you (and Ritchie) are right that this GS template situation just needs some mediation and my suggestion that Ritchie be the one to do it was sincere. Best, ] (]) 23:22, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
	:::Well, you were the filing party in the Medicine case, and if this is going to become Medicine2, I might just ask you to recuse. --] (]) 23:28, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
	::::Why do you say it will be Medicine 2? I don't see a sprawl across the topic area. If it's accepted it will be about looking at a single administrator's conduct. That editor happens to edit in Medicine, but even at the height of my medicine admin work I was not doing any work outside of MEDPRICES. But I'm intrigued by your thoughts that I shouldn't arbitrate. Best, ] (]) 23:33, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
	:::::If this goes back beyond the template, and it's focused only on RexxS's conduct as an admin (so as, officially, not to be Medicine2), then it's going to become a matter of his interactions with other editors who were parties in the Medicine case, a lot of it recently having been about ], which is the same venue as the price dispute was about, and which rehashes the same grievances that underlay the pricing dispute. (I've been quietly watching that, without getting involved, so I've been seeing what has been going on there, and it looks to me like PR's diffs come from there.) Based upon how you interacted with me in that area, and based upon how you interacted with other parties during the case, I do not believe that you can approach RexxS's conduct in an uninvolved way. --] (]) 23:42, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
	::::::Well this shows that I have not been following that at all because I had no idea that there was any acrimony going on. So far the diffs entered (Joe Roe brought the most) have touched on medical topics but not MEDPRICES. Med topics are to be expected when there is question about INOVLVED with Rexx. Anyhow I will keep this in mind as things progress. Best, ] (]) 00:50, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
	:::::::I'm not aware of anything ongoing about prices. What I meant was that the same interpersonal grievances are at play. --] (]) 01:00, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
	::::::::And I meant to write MEDMOS. Best, ] (]) 05:29, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
			::::Basically, we want to come up with one or two sentences that summarize Ruth's lifelong use of tobacco and its potential risk which may have contributed to his cancer. In this regard, the NYT reported, "While there is no evidence that tobacco killed him, Dr. Bikhazi said it probably played a part." ] (]) 21:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Got it. I did see what you said in the GA review. So the bottom line is to come up with an additional sentence or two about this, and how to word that. Would this be for ''both'' the bio page and the death and funeral page, or would it differ between the two pages? I'll give this some further thought, but one thing that stands out to me on a quick look is that we need to avoid any SYNTH, and base it only on the sources that actually are about Ruth (not those that are about health effects in general). --] (]) 21:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Ideally, it would be for both pages. I acknowledge your concern about SYNTH; I only provided the extraneous material to show how and why the interest in Ruth's death and tobacco arose in the 1980s. ] (]) 21:31, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::OK, I'll think on it, and propose some language at ]. --] (]) 21:34, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Thank you. Like I said, there's no hurry, so take as much time as you want. ] (]) 21:36, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Looks great. "Why couldn’t I have thought of that?" ] (]) 02:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Glad to help! --] (]) 21:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
			== Vibes ==
	== Arbitration Case Opened ==
			]
	You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at ]. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at ]. '''Please add your evidence by March 13, 2021, which is when the evidence phase closes.''' You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, ]. For a guide to the arbitration process, see ]. For the Arbitration Committee, ]] 04:53, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
			Hi, I'm not sure if this will help the "vibes" feeling you expressed at my RfA, but I'm pictured in this photograph. This is from when I attended ] a few months ago in Toronto. I'm in the green. Umm... maybe this isn't quite the reassurance you were looking for and you still have whatever you saw in me that concerned you. If that's the case, I do hope that maybe I can alleviate that concern someday. ] ] 12:16, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
			:Hi, Clovermoss! I'm actually quite flattered that you (or anyone, for that matter) would care enough about my opinion to still be thinking of what I said then. But to whatever degree my opinion at that time has caused you any discomfort, please let me very sincerely apologize to you for that.
			:Since you've brought this up, I'm going to try to explain where my concern came from, without disclosing anything that I cannot disclose publicly. A long time ago, I happened to see you post a comment on a talk page, that reminded me of someone who is banned from Misplaced Pages. It sounded to me like something they would have said, and they are known to be a prolific and skillful socker. That said, it's 90% likely that the similarity was just a random coincidence, in which case my suspicion would just be an injustice to you. That's why I only went "neutral" and no further: I wanted to see if what I did post would ring a bell with anyone else, without posting anything that would be explicitly unfounded and a personal attack. Nobody else shared my concern, and I think in hindsight that I should not have even posted what I did. Sorry.
			:For reasons that I cannot post, I have a hunch that I know who the sockmaster is, and what they look like. (It's not, to my knowledge, a view held by others, and it rests on some questionable evidence, not enough for me to forward to functionaries.) I've just been looking very closely at your photo, and some photos of them. And I hate to say this, but there's a resemblance, just enough that I don't feel comfortable saying outright that I was wrong. It's not quite an exact resemblance, so I was probably wrong. That's where I'm at: I'm probably wrong.
			:I know that's terribly unfair to you, if as is probable, I'm insinuating something that isn't at all your fault. But I want to be honest in what I post in this reply.
			:But here's what's more important than any of that. As far as I'm aware, you've been doing an excellent job as an admin, and as a member of the community. For Misplaced Pages purposes, that's what matters. Not some fish's idiosyncratic hunch. Keep up the good work, and know that you have nothing to worry about from me. --] (]) 22:02, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
			::I just wanted to try and put your mind at ease since obviously something about me bothered you. And I've always been relatively open about myself so sharing a photo didn't seem like a big deal since I've attended events. I admit to being a bit disappointed that it isn't enough and that you apparently see a resemblance. ] ] 23:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::I'm sincerely sorry that I ended up leaving you feeling disappointed. Please don't let this make you feel bad. --] (]) 15:33, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::: The only other thing I can think of would be ? That's me at WCNA. It's a bit more than a photograph and you can hear my voice (it's before I cut my hair a few months ago, it used to be quite long). I think it's human nature to find situations like this disheartening. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how I could prove that I am exactly who I say I am, but I've come to the conclusion that it's likely going to be impossible to convince you 100%. I know you've said that you think I'm a good admin but it's kind of hard not to focus on the you think I resemble a banned editor part. I think my reaction to that is quite reasonable, all things considered. ] ] 20:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::It really doesn't matter what I think. After all, as I often say here, it's only a website. And for that matter, I'm only some random person on the Internet. I recognize that it's true that it's only human nature for this to keep tugging at you, but I really wish that it didn't. I'm 68 years old, and I can certainly think of many times during my own life when someone's criticism of me stuck in my mind much more than someone else's compliments, and much more than, by rights, I should have let it. But I can also give you my sincere advice to just let this one go. --] (]) 20:58, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::The video didn't do it then? I can move on, I was just hoping that (like the photo), it might be enough. ] ] 21:07, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::The video actually looks even more like that person. Alas, probably just a coincidence. --] (]) 21:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::(ec) ] {{tq|I'm only some random person on the Internet}} And we all thought you were only some random fish in the net. <small> And apparently an <strike>old</strike> ''experienced'' one at that! </small> ] (]) 21:08, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I figured ''you'' were a disease, which shows how little I know. {{(:}} But no sugar-coating it, I'm old. --] (]) 21:33, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::You're going to have to try much harder if you want to be the 2024 candidate for the Curmudgeon of the Year award. ] (]) 00:17, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::If nominated, I will not run, and if elected, I will not serve. Now, get off my lawn. --] (]) 21:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
			:. --] (]) 21:53, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
			== Re: Information overload in medicine ==
	== pattern of behaviour ==
			From the article on ]:
	The issue isn't how many discussions can be used to establish a pattern of evidence, but that the proposed procedure for initiating a review of the administrator's behaviour requires a discussion that was closed indicating the administrator behaved inappropriately. That can be challenging for certain types of behaviour that have strong supporters, or if many people support the same point of view held by the person in question. If we had a better way to deal with content disputes, the incentive to behave aggressively would be considerably reduced. But we don't, and so here we are. ] (]) 01:26, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
	:I agree with all of that. I think that this is a very useful discussion nonetheless, and I'm working (just in my own head, for the moment, not ready for prime time) on another direction that we could take it in. I feel like it may be something quite good (how's that for a tease?). Maybe I'll bring it up there (for those playing along at home, we're talking about the desysop policy RfC that's on everyone's watchlist notices, specifically a comment near the end of the oppose section), and/or maybe as part of the ArbCom case about a specific admin, that is going on right now. --] (]) 19:28, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
	::I started to toy with the idea of trying to track patterns of behaviour on pages visible only to admins, mirroring what would happen in a real-world organization, but I think it would face strong opposition. I'm more interested in ] aspect, in any case. But I suspect something will have to happen to first break the stalemate imposed by consensus-based decision making. ] (]) 21:19, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
			:{{tq|It would be impossible for an individual to read all the ] published in a narrow speciality, even if they spent all their time reading. A response to this is the publishing of ] such as the ]. Richard Smith argues that it would be impossible for a general practitioner to read all the literature relevant to every individual patient they consult with and suggests one solution would be an ] for use of doctors while consulting.}}
	== Somewhat entertaining ==
			This would be fascinating to continue in a separate article about this subject. However, I have no idea what the topic would be called. It's not quite ] but more of a subject about how experts can keep in touch with the latest studies. Anyway, I'm a bit overextended as I'm working on two different articles (one offline) at the moment. But I'm curious if you have any input as to what this kind of article would be called. It would probably fall under psychology, but I'm just guessing. BTW, these so-called expert systems have been around as startups forever. Not sure if they ever got off the ground as I was only familiar with their development in the 1990s, which is like a century ago in internet time. ] (]) 08:35, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
	Well, at least I found it primarily because that fish can grow to be 6+ ft. ] ] ] 23:45, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
			:I feel like one could call it the story of my life. I can attest, from personal experience, that it's a thing, and has been for decades, doubtlessly only getting worse with time. I'm sure it's true for clinical medical practice, and I know it's true for medical research, but I'd also say that it's true for science in general, and very well may apply to other academic disciplines. It's an adverse side-effect of "]". My gut reaction is that it probably belongs where we have it now, as a section of the information overload page, rather than spinning it out into a standalone page. Probably could be expanded, there. --] (]) 23:28, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
	:I bet that's what it tells all the female fish!
			::Oh, agreed. What I'm getting at though, is an entirely different topic. It may already exist, I don't know. Something having to do with "the ability to keep current in your field". ] (]) 00:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	:But seriously, that's some atrociously irresponsible fishkeeping. Did that thing actually eat the ]? And adding ]es? Anyone who keeps animals as pets has responsibilities. And putting a fish that will grow to six feet in a tank two feet long, along with other fish that will fit in its mouth, is nothing to be proud of. {{smiley|1=27}} --] (]) 00:02, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
			:::Oh, so more like becoming "dead wood", becoming a ] issue. I don't have any suggestions at the moment, but you might get some ideas by looking through ]. --] (]) 21:58, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	::Exactly. What got my interest was a recent comment at the Alligator gar: Predator or Prey page on YouTube. I remember when I produced that program, the curator of the Dallas Aquarium mentioned how expensive they are to keep because they primarily eat other fish but they'll eat other prey, too, like water fowl, turtles, small stuff. So now we have the public raising them in personal aquariums - and when they get too big, guess where they go? Typically, they're dumped into the closest lake. Kids who get pet baby alligators do the same thing - it's insane. I think the person in that video uses the goldfish as food or as a snack to go with the pelleted food. ] ] ] 00:15, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
	:::And introducing them into the wild as invasive species... {{facepalm}}. --] (]) 00:22, 7 March 2021 (UTC)		::::Thank you, kind sir! ] (]) 22:20, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Kind{{citation needed|date=April 2024}} sir{{citation needed|date=April 2024}}. --] (]) 22:25, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	== Extenuating circumstances ==		== Re: Pit bull ==
			]
			:{{tq|Pit bull attacks are often perceived as taking place "without warning"}}
			Just a note, this recently happened to me. I was very lucky because the dog was young and small (female, less than a year old). It went for my right hand first, and then my groin, with no advance warning, and wouldn't let go. Normally, I'm very good with dogs and have no issues, but I suspect the young owner was the problem and didn't know what they were doing. I immediately relaxed every muscle in my body and went completely limp, and the owner was able to get them to let go. Although most people recommend other drastic self-defense measures, I think you have to use the ones that come most naturally in the moment based on the circumstances. I immediately judged that the age of immaturity of the dog did not demand an aggressive defense posture. By relaxing and going completely limp, my skin and flesh was less taut, less rigid, and more malleable, and aside from redness and bruising, that was the worst of it. I think if I had tried to resist and pull away, there could have been major tissue damage. I would say "good times", but it really wasn't. ] (]) 23:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	Not sure what you mean by (though I suspect as Levivich alluded to, COVID-19 probably made administrators more forgiving in simply closing the incidents noticeboard thread). The two disagreed in the categories for discussion thread, which likely spilled over into the dispute on talk page formatting.
			:: You displayed impressive control. I have fortunately avoided dog attacks such as you describe. But my default (and unquestionably faulty) response, for which I have prepared to a certain extent, would be to eliminate the attacker with extreme prejudice. I am glad your approach proved to be a good one. ] (]) 09:40, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::My guess, and I could be wrong, is that given its age, the dog was at the very end of the teething phase. ] (]) 19:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
			:Oh, I almost forgot to mention the second failed attack that happened back in January. I was on a nature walk late at night to stargaze in my neighborhood, when one of the neighbor's pits got loose and was running the streets looking for trouble. As I was crossing the street to make my way back to my place, this dog comes literally out of nowhere and starts barking, staring me down. To keep my wits, I remembered to show no fear; I was trying not to laugh at the absurdity of the situation because if I did laugh it could make the dog angrier than it already was. At first I thought the poor dog must be rabid, because it was in the middle of the street doing this with a weird look on its face. I thought I could hear ], perhaps it was ]? I must have imagined it. Now I could hear ], straight out of ]. We stared each other down. Was that tumbleweed rolling by? We stood in place like it was a gunfight at the O.K. Corral. It was then that I realized that the dog was scared and slightly lost and couldn't get back home, but at the same time, it was overly aggressive and wouldn't let me get close enough to read its tag and help it. As luck would have it, a bicyclist showed up out of nowhere and saw the scene unfolding. The dog immediately got distracted and turned its head from me to them and was prepared to switch gears and go after them instead. Lucky me. The bicyclist slowed down; I quickly explained what was happening and asked them to slow even further down and go in the opposite direction as that would allow me to walk away from the dog as its Homer Simpson-like attention span quickly forgot about me and decided to pursue another moving target, albeit one that was faster than them. And that's how I made my way back home. ] (]) 23:33, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
			::{{tps}} ] is possibly not recommended as a distraction strategy for pit bulls. You could try ]? Or maybe you really need to just ] (the one without the dog teeth embedded...) ] (]) 09:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
			::: ] (]) 18:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::I make a few cleanup edits to a page that {{u|Atsme}} asked me to watch (), and when I log in the next day, I have 15 new messages. ''Rolls eyes.'' --] (]) 19:31, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::{{small|Atsme's ] is much worse that her ], you know. ] (]) 19:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)}}
			:::::::{{small|How many little ]s does it take to make one ]? --] (]) 19:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)}}
			::::::::{{small|Slightly more than one ]. ] (]) 19:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)}}
			:::::::::{{small|Well I for one, feel a bit ]. Seems like it's all been going for ]. ] (]) 21:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)}}
			::::::::::Speaking of dogs - I received a Common's notice: "Shamoople‬ left a message on your talk page." Based on recent experiences from there, I am hesitant to go. I've learned that stalkers derive some sort of pleasure using the element of surprise. Would you or another brave colleague let me know if it's safe? I don't know any user named Shmoople, and I doubt that it's going to be a pleasant message on Commons (which is usually an image when on Commons). ] ] ] 22:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	I hope your change of heart does not centre on my evidence; I just wanted to give more context to the noticeboard thread as I was concerned no one would examine the actual technical impact of the edits (as many in the thread did not). ] (]) 00:49, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
			:::::::::::All I see there are friendly messages about things like choosing good images. --] (]) 23:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::As far as I can tell, the message was deleted by an admin on March 23. It must have been pretty bad. ] (]) 23:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Oh, it's pretty bad alright. It's still up on Wikidata. Wikidata admin needed! (Do not click that link...unless you want to.) ] (]) 23:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::I reverted. ] (]) 23:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::I won't be clicking it. Thank you, Viriditas. I figured it might be that sick-o stalker. *sigh* ] ] ] 23:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::It occurs to me, the more I think about it, that this kind of thing really reflects the age of the person doing it. At my age, I would be far more upset at an image of a toenail with fungus or someone sticking their hands in a restaurant buffet. I suppose this is partly why profilers can generally give an accurate yet restricted age range to most crimes. In other words, your stalker must be very young. ] (]) 23:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::{{small|So glad that neither of those gentlemen had toenail fungus or had hands in a restaurant buffet. Shucks, I thought it might be ]... alas ]. ] (]) 07:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)}}
			:::::::::::::::::{{small|I am partial to a Doxle (Beagle x Dachshund). Cute little fellers. ] (]) 20:51, 16 April 2024 (UTC)}}
			::::::::::::::::::It didn't occur to me to check the talk page history until after I had logged out. Anyway, 'nuff said. Thanks for reverting it, Viriditas. --] (]) 21:15, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::{{small|There's a lot to be said for that cross between the ] and the ], affectionately known as the Du-Rex. Very protective, it seems. ] (]) 21:36, 16 April 2024 (UTC)}}
			:::::::::::::::::::I'm partial to the ]. <small><small>But don't tell anyone about ].</small></small> --] (]) 21:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::Ah yes, the ] crossed with that other ]? ] (]) 09:12, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::It's extremely rude to make fun of DeSantis' utter and abject failure to make an impact as a presidential candidate.
			:::::::::::::::::::::You should make fun of his , instead. But only because he's so opposed to anyone else getting ]. ] (]) 13:52, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::::Hey, Temp Account! As always, so happy to see you here! As far as I'm concerned, if Radical Ron weren't governor, ] wouldn't have happened. And I have documents to prove it. --] (]) 18:37, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::::"He made a mess of my dress and my heart stood still. Somebody told me that his name was ]" etc. etc. ] (]) 14:00, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::::It appears I missed all the ]. You need a few more reliable sources before I can review ] and move it to mainspace, Tryp. Do you have a COI with the subject? Something ]. {{emoji|1F61C}} --]] 16:14, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::::::] I'm utterly corrupt. But don't anyone mess with my Feathered Article! --] (]) 18:40, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
			== Reminder to vote now to select members of the first U4C ==
	:Then let me make this very clear. Yes, it centers '''entirely''' on your evidence, which I find devastating. Talk about burying the lead – all the evidence prior to yours seemed to me to point the other way. But the issue here is the '''extreme''' edit warring. If I were "in charge", that would be, all by itself, immediate grounds for desysopping. --] (]) 00:53, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
	:<small>Logging out now. I need to sleep on this. --] (]) 00:55, 7 March 2021 (UTC)</small>
			<section begin="announcement-content" />
	== Conventions for discussion thread formatting ==
			:''] ''
			Dear Wikimedian,
	Regarding : as unsolicited advice, please feel free to ignore the following, particularly if you're already aware of it. You responded to a comment that started with <code>*</code> with a comment that started with <code>::</code>, immediately following a comment that started with <code>*::::::</code>. The first comment started a first-level bulleted list. Your reply changed the first-level list to an unbulleted one, and nested a second-level unbulleted list item below it. This causes screen readers to announce the closing of seven list levels (from the comment before your reply) and the opening of two list levels.
			You are receiving this message because you previously participated in the UCoC process.
	To avoid unnecessary additional overhead for those using screen readers, and under some circumstances (depending on how the list nesting gets altered midstream) to prevent a more verbose output for those using the visual diff option, you can follow the conventions described at {{section link|Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Accessibility|Lists}}. RexxS has a essay, ], and I have my own, ], that also cover this. In a nutshell: use the same prefix as the comment to which you're replying, and then add the character of your choice to it. In this case, this means using a prefix of <code>*:</code>. This would have limited the announcements to the closing of five list levels, with no added opening list announcements. ] (]) 19:43, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
	:Thanks, no problem. I learned something from this. I'm going to blue-link to ] because, although it's something that I was vaguely aware of, I wasn't really ''actively'' aware of it. And I want to be very friendly to readers who depend upon ], because it's the right thing to do. (Actually, I've long wondered about it, when I see someone making those kinds of corrections, and I'll admit to thinking, ignorantly, that this must be people with too much time on their hands. Stuff like "list announcements" means nothing to those of us who don't think in html: does that have something to do with mailing lists? wink wink. And in this specific example, I actually was just following the edit that was immediately above my own.) When I think of it, I'll try to remember the right way to do it, although I'm quick to add that I'll probably forget a lot of the time. In which case, gnomish editors, thank you, and I'll try not to think snarky things about you in the future. --] (]) 22:17, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
	::Yes, I imagine many editors think of colons as indent levels/tab stops (in old typewriter terms). A common thing I've seen is editors replying to a comment prefixed with something like <code>***</code> with a comment prefixed with something like <code>:::*</code>. Presumably they are thinking "I want to match the indent level of the previous comment, and then add a bulleted item". I started also mentioning the problem with visual diffs now, as I'm guessing that might resonate with a (very?) slightly larger audience. (For the edit I linked to, the edit immediately above yours had a prefix of <code>*::::::</code>; there are other cases however where you were indeed following a comment that had been the first to change the first character in the prefix.)
	::I was more reluctant to make these kind of changes in the past, but after convincing myself that for the cases where the comments were placed at the correct nesting level but just needlessly changed the list types, it made no discernable visual difference (other than changing weird-looking hanging bullets into ones with the usual spacing), I do them more often. I'm still cautious about cases where list levels are skipped, because changing it will affect the horizontal layout, and sometimes editors do it when interjecting before an earlier response, ignoring the conventional approach of replying at the end and not jumping ahead of earlier responders.
	::As I understand it, browsing with a screen reader is a dramatically different experience. The users speed up the playback and key off small cues to figure out where to jump to next. I had a discussion with one editor where I talked about the best practice of having meaningful link text instead of "click here", as some users depend on going through links quickly based on the announced link text, and the response was that they should learn not to do that. Having an accessible site, particularly when the vast majority of editors (including me) have very little knowledge of the browsing experience for those with accessibility needs, is hard. ] (]) 23:18, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
	:::I'm actually a lot less sympathetic to issues with the Visual Editor, because no one ''has'' to use it, and the developers should be responsible for fixing stuff like that instead of expecting editors to compensate for its shortcomings. But making the site accessible for those with disabilities is something I'm happy to support. --] (]) 17:05, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
	::::I don't use the Visual Editor to edit, but I regularly use both text and visual diffs. I find the visual diff output easier to read (when it isn't highlighting pseudo-changes caused by unnecessary changes in list styles) and often provides better surrounding context. The problem with unnecessary changes in list styles can't really be fixed by developers, because just like screen readers, it can't tell if you actually meant to change list styles for some reason, or if you're just treating all of the prefix characters as indents. ] (]) 17:17, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
			This is a reminder that the voting period for the Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) ends on May 9, 2024. Read the information on the ] to learn more about voting and voter eligibility.
	I forgot I mentioned the case of interjected comments in this thread. You mentioned not understanding the issue on a technical level; do you have some additional questions that I might help clarify? ] (]) 19:20, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
	:Thanks very much for your reply here, and for your reply at EEng's talk page. No, I really don't have any further questions. It's more like: (a) I don't really care that much about technical stuff, (b) I already understand the basic reasons, and (c) I wanted to sound interested but neutral in the debate, and ignorance is always a convenient excuse. {{(:}} --] (]) 20:58, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
			The Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) is a global group dedicated to providing an equitable and consistent implementation of the UCoC. Community members were invited to submit their applications for the U4C. For more information and the responsibilities of the U4C, please ].
	== Input, please ==
			Please share this message with members of your community so they can participate as well.
	I'm of the mind that you are more attuned to collegiate/scholarly matters on a much broader scale than I (the beach vs a sand castle),{{stretch}} and would very much appreciate your input about this . My namesake (granddaughter) is graduating early with great reviews from her teachers, and is now contemplating that program. I am much too close to the subject to judge fairly. ] ] ] 16:17, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
	:I'm happy to try to help with this, and I'd like to offer a few initial impressions, and then I want you to follow up with more questions to me. I'm asking for that further discussion largely because I can see a lot of different possible directions this discussion could take, and I want your guidance towards the parts that are actually relevant to what you want to find out about.
	:One part is whether to use ''this'' program, or to use ''other'' programs for gap years. I see from their website that they say that students can get college credits for what they do in the program. That actually depends on the college, as it's up to ''them''. So your granddaughter should think about some of the colleges/universities she ''might'' want to apply to, and look into their policies for giving course credit for stuff like that. But don't just take the company's word for it.
	:I otherwise didn't see any obvious red flags about this particular company, and a superficial look seems to indicate a lot of positive online reviews.
	:Another part, and it's an important one, is whether or not to do a gap year (regardless of how to do it). There's no right or wrong answer there. It depends on the young person, and their interests, and their possible benefit from a year spent figuring out those interests. What is she interested in, academically and perhaps professionally? What does she want to get out of the experience of a year of traveling? Gap years and traveling ''are'' becoming (have become?) very popular with young people, and they are often very successful and worthwhile. But everyone is an individual, and it's obviously not one-size-fits-all.
	:Does she have any colleges in mind she wants to apply to? Does she have any major(s) in mind? Does she have any specific interests in another part of the world? Does she have specific questions about her future that she wants to figure out?
	:And what would be the pluses and minuses of doing a gap year where the travel and the rest is set up by the family, instead of buying a package commercially?
	:--] (]) 17:24, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
	::Thanks, Tryp. I'm going to send her the link to this page so she can follow along, and ask me questions to ask you. ] ] ] 00:26, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
	:::All good! --] (]) 18:06, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
	::::Your ears must be burning because I just now finished discussing what you said and here is her response in a nutshell:
	:::::She is currently thinking about a career as an x-ray technician but she also wants to take business management thinking it may lead to other opportunities. (She's neither pro nor con gap years and realizes the tendency to not complete one's schooling when study is not contiguous.) She has no particular college or university in mind at this point, primarily because she has not had an opportunity to discuss that topic with her HS counselor, and is unaware of her options. The benefits she sees in the proposed program is that it affords her exposure to new experiences, and an opportunity to explore different cultures in a country much different from her own. She also believes it will help make her more aware of business opportunities, available internships, etc.
	::::They say dolphins communicate that way. 😂 ] ] ] 18:11, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
	:::::Dolphins? I must have done that on porpoise. (Sorry, that was awful!) Two thoughts: One is for her to not get too worried about failing to complete schooling. Gap years and the like are very common, and each individual controls their own ability to follow-through. If she wants to continue, she will continue.
	:::::The other is that I think this is an excellent topic for her to discuss with her guidance counselor. Unless there are any questions for me that cannot wait til then, my suggestion is to wait until that meeting has happened, and then follow-up here after that. I expect that it will be helpful in focusing what to evaluate next. --] (]) 18:35, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
	::::::Clever - I spewed my drink as I was reading your first 2 sentences - luckily no damage to the keyboard. I do agree that she needs to consult with her counselors first, and go from there. My primary interest was how the gap programs work, but I feel a little better now after your input. The adventure she's talking about (Thailand with an adult leader overseeing a small group) will provide some college credits, and give her some experience in another part of the world. To be continued. ] ] ] 19:52, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
	:::::::I want to repeat what I said earlier, that whether a given college actually accepts it as credits depends on the college, and not on what the (for-profit) company says. I have two Harvard classmates (thus equally as ancient as I am) who went to Thailand between high school and college and found it very worthwhile (one is an attorney, the other a physician). I could get in touch with them if that were to be useful. --] (]) 20:10, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
			On behalf of the UCoC project team,<section end="announcement-content" />
	== Oops! ==
	Sorry... ] (]) 22:22, 28 March 2021 (UTC)		] 23:10, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
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	:No worries! --] (]) 22:23, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	:PS: As much as it would be entertaining to block multiple Arbs, please don't. --] (]) 22:26, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	::For those playing along at home: , . --] (]) 22:28, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
	::: Can I be the ]? .. lol. Seriously though - I saw where you '''restored''' a post and was thrown for a second thinking you posted using another users sig. My mind was jumped into overdrive on that one. ] (]) 16:45, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
	::::LOL! I dunno, being a car might give you gas. That's actually the second time in less than 24 hours that I made that kind of edit, the first being the one that JBW posted to me about just above, although this time I restored someone else's comment instead of my own. It might not be gas, but there sure is something that is becoming absolutely rampant around here: too many otherwise reasonable people getting so, so very upset about stuff that it feels like everyone is about to bust an axle. Everyone needs to calm the F down, and when they don't, it becomes contagious. I've been informally keeping track of whether or not, each day when I log in here, I see something (without going out of my way to look for it) where someone is either getting very upset, or getting into trouble, or creating a situation where it makes me feel upset, and I can say that there have been ZERO days for over a month when I've logged in and everything is peaceful. It's like Misplaced Pages is the bottomless well that just keeps on giving. I'm truly not seeing a way out of this. --] (]) 17:03, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
	:::::And now, , but I won't dare touch ''that'' one, because I don't want to be a rotten Tryptofish! --] (]) 20:44, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
	:::::''Noting'': Today, I haven't seen anything that is negative in the way that I just described above. Literally, the first time in recent memory. Maybe it's an early omen of April Fools Day tomorrow. (Which I'm sure will summon forth the annual indignation of the humor-challenged.) --] (]) 20:15, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
			== RFA2024 update: phase I concluded, phase II begins ==
	==Modest flowers==
	{{User QAIbox
	| image = Daisies, Rüdesheim.jpg
	| image_upright = 0.8
	}}
	Thank you for what you said on Yoninah's talk, - see also ]! --] (]) 16:21, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
			Hi there! Phase I of the ] has concluded, with several impactful changes gaining community consensus and proceeding to various stages of implementation. Some proposals will be implemented in full outright; others will be discussed at phase II before being implemented; and still others will proceed on a trial basis before being brought to phase II. The following proposals have gained consensus:
	... and also for ] --] (]) 20:49, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
	{{clear}}
			* '''Proposals 2 and 9b''' (''']'''): ] and ]
	== This? ==
			* '''Proposal 3b''' (in trial): ]
			* '''Proposal 13''' (in trial): ]
			* '''Proposal 14''' (implemented): ]
			* '''Proposals 16 and 16c''' (''']'''): ] and ]
			* '''Proposal 17''' (''']'''): ]
			* '''Proposal 24''' (''']'''): ]
			* '''Proposal 25''' (implemented): ]
			See the ] for a full list of proposals and their outcomes. A huge thank-you to everyone who has participated so far :) looking forward to seeing lots of hard work become a reality in phase II. ] (]), via ] (]) 08:09, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
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			== Monitors not closing the RFA they are monitoring ==
	] (]) 22:16, 29 March 2021 (UTC)]]
			Should this be suggested as a separate statement? It seems an obvious idea, but defining it now looks like an idea that could help avoid issues in the future. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 00:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
	I got you some extra. That really made me laugh .. literally out loud ] (]) 22:16, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
	:Thanks! (''In re'' this: .) That's what I'm here for: stinking up Misplaced Pages! --] (]) 22:21, 29 March 2021 (UTC)		:Yes, I agree with that. And, {{done}}: . --] (]) 20:01, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
	::<small>Is it just me, or is that Old Spice container a little too phallic-looking? --] (]) 22:34, 29 March 2021 (UTC)</small>
	:::<small> LOLOLOLOL ... only you would find that. ] (]) 22:44, 29 March 2021 (UTC) well ... now that I look again ... ] (]) 22:44, 29 March 2021 (UTC)</small>
	::::<small>Help! Help! Ched is sexually harassing me!{{fbdb}} My new personal pronoun is now... oh, nevermind! --] (]) 22:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)</small>
			== email ==
			Hey, Tryptofish! You don't have email enabled, which maybe means you don't want to interact via email, but if you're willing to, could you email me? ] (]) 13:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
	===Hahaha===
			:Hi Valereee. I generally don't like to conduct Misplaced Pages business via email, largely for privacy reasons. I'm also making a guess that you are contacting me about the current drama involving someone who is upset. That's something that I '''really''' do not want to discuss anymore. But if it's about something else, please drop a hint here, and I'll reconsider. Of course, I'm always happy to talk with you, so please don't feel like I'm brushing you off. --] (]) 21:23, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
			::Not at all, and I totally understand. Tangentially related, although not in the way you're probably thinking of. ] (]) 12:26, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
			== TFA ==
	... of course piscine odors distinct from ] were meant :-) ---] ] 22:19, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
			{{User QAIbox
	:I may need ], after all the anger around this place today. You had linked to ], and I guess I'm a saucy fish. Or I need a ]. --] (]) 22:26, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
			| image = Hawthorn in bloom, Ehrenbach.jpg
	] ] 23:12, 29 March 2021 (UTC)]]
			| image_upright = 1.3
	:Thanks! And it's the giant economy size, which is even better! A nice, shapely bottle... no, I'm not gonna go there. --] (]) 16:56, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
			| bold = ] · ] · ]
			}}
			Today's TFA, ], was written by Vami_IV and Epicgenius, introduced: "This article is about another of the great houses that once lined Fifth Avenue in New York. Specifically, this is the mansion of Felix M. Warburg, a Jewish financier who ignored fears of anti-Semitic reprisal to his decided to build himself a big Gothic manor in the middle of New York City. Although the Warburgs no longer remain, their legacy does: the museum is now the home of the Jewish Museum (Manhattan) and the building largely survives as they left it. It's a beautiful building and I hope you will all enjoy it."! - in memory -- ] (]) 14:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
			:Thanks! --] (]) 21:19, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
			:: today's story has a pic of a woman holding her cat, a DYK of 5 years ago - the recent pics show 2 orange tip butterflies --] (]) 15:21, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
			:: ] mentions a concert I loved to hear and a piece I loved to sing in choir, 150 years old OTD. --] (]) 15:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
	== tv ==		== Why? ==
			Could you tell me why you reverted my edit on Doug Weller's page? How did that impact you in any way? ] (]) 22:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
	Just got my Disney+ too .. guessing you have Comcast/Xfinity? Watched first episode of Wanda Vision and The Mandilorian. Still not sure on the ESPN+ .. it seems it didn't automatically import with the others. Looking forward to the 'Zilla movie (been watching since the early 70's .. some great stuff on Sat. morning. - and agree "so bad it's good). Think I've seen most of the Zilla and Kong stuff in the past 20 years or so - but could have missed one. Liked the Sam Jackson one, but the Mathew Brodrick and Jack Black ones I could go either way. Did you see the Snyder cut of Justice League yet? ] (]) 23:58, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
	:I'm not as into that category of movies as it sounds like you are, but I can certainly use some escape. Funny that you asked me about the Snyder cut, because I haven't seen it, and I too was thinking of asking if anyone had seen it. I'm curious, but reluctant to give it four hours. And, yes, it's effing Comcast. (I just posted a joke about the Zilla stuff at Arb-talk, and I got the red notification from you so soon after doing so that I had a moment of paranoia, thinking I had been blocked for posting it.) --] (]) 00:03, 2 April 2021 (UTC)		:It doesn't impact me, ''per se''. I did it because of ] and ]. If you want to withdraw something you've posted, you can <s>strike through</s> it, as in: <nowiki><s>strike through</s></nowiki>. --] (]) 23:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
	::LOL .. seriously doubt any admin would block on that. Pic was funny. I only got through about half of Snyder cut ... will finish this weekend maybe. I probably favor Star ''Trek'' over ''Wars'', but enjoy both. These days I have more time for TV and movies. (reasons are personal info I'd only share in email though). Picked up the new Hanks movie too ] (DVD). DVR kinda backed up too .. sigh - so much "entertainment" and so little time. lol. Getting dragged back into wiki has hurt my time too ... need to go back to my own little "short description" world. ] (]) 00:21, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
	:::Yeah, I was just being momentarily paranoid, but kinda shows where the on-wiki mentality is these days. Talk page watchers should definitely check out ]. --] (]) 00:30, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
			== Good ==
	== In response to Mahsa Shoaran's Wiki page ==
			]
			Good. --] (]) 21:15, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
			== ] ==
	Thank you so much for your message. We really appreciate the support you provide for the Misplaced Pages platform.
			The article is now improved into a perfect article Nano-ayurvedic medicine and the sources are now accurate, so turning it into an article is better. ] (]) 08:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	First of all let us clearly define a neuroscientist: A neuroscientist (or neurobiologist) is a scientist who has specialised knowledge in the field of neuroscience, the branch of biology. This person studied electrical engineering and she cannot be considered as a neuroscientist. Please do not add unreal titles to the people. We added full reference for any new sentences. We beleive in the clarification of the current situation about the recrutments of new professors in Switzerland and we are trying to clearly and honestly provide all information to the readers. Please do not remove the critical information that are clearly cited. Number of citation in our field is very important and we are trying to make a transparent scientific enviroment. Everyone should be able to receive the information about the number of citations of a professor at the time of his/her recrument and how much self-citated references they have. The sentence about the self-citation was cited clearly. 20 out of 26 references were self-citation and unfortunately this is becoming a trend to increase the number of citation and we cannot understand why it was removed. If you believe in transparent information you should not eliminate such critical information. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:32, 3 April 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Answered at the IP's talk page. --] (]) 23:38, 3 April 2021 (UTC)		:{{facepalm}} Let's just say you have an idiosyncratic understanding of the word "perfect". --] (]) 20:23, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:And the page is now deleted. Thanks to {{u|Chris troutman}} for the PROD. --] (]) 18:30, 11 April 2021 (UTC)		:]. --] (]) 20:41, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			::Tryptofish, out of curiousity, have you ever met, sat down, and talked with someone who practices ayurvedic medicine? I have. What surprised me the most was the realization that they were practicing "medicine" from the 1st century BC. While on the one hand it boggled my mind, since it is, after all, 2024 right now, on the other hand, this isn't so strange when you think about all the old beliefs people have. Why do you think people continue to harbor old beliefs about reality when the new ones tend to explain the world, for the most part, in a much better way? Well, I asked the ayurvedic practitioner this very question. Their response? A perfectly, well-formed ]. ] (]) 00:02, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::I have to give two answers, one as an editor, and the other as my offsite self.
			:::My answer as an editor is that this content fails ], and is beyond fixing. Full stop, and I don't want to discuss that any further, outside of the AfD discussion that is going on now. And I don't want to encourage this IP.
			:::My answer as a scientist is also that I don't want to encourage this IP. In this particular case, the idea of doing ayurveda by way of nanoparticles is very much what another editor at the AfD rightly called "bollocks". More generally, I'm friendly to the idea that cultural traditions have, over long periods of time, discovered ways of providing health care that can turn out to be very real, and that should be made use of, rather than dismissed out of hand. The way that I try to distinguish between useful insights and bollocks is by seeing if there is a scientifically rational way to explain how the proposed treatment may work. As often happens, the nano-bollocks theory fails this criterion. As for why people find it so easy to harbor old beliefs even when evidence is right in front of their eyes, well, I'll answer that with another facepalm and a quick mention of MAGA. --] (]) 22:05, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::I think you may have entirely misinterpreted what I wrote, but that doesn't matter, as I still enjoyed your answer. What I was getting at was experientially trying to figure these people out, not in any way encouraging them or legitimizing their behavior or ideas, but understanding their motivations and beliefs face to face, not on Misplaced Pages. The reason I raised this issue is because I live in Hawaii, and for whatever reason we have a large number of people who believe in this stuff. When COVID-19 first started, ayurvedic practitioners were the vanguard of COVID-19 denial. At the time, partly due to the lockdowns and with everyone being out and about in the sunshine, I got to talk to these people, in ]. I took photographs, interviewed people involved in the protests, etc. The ayurvedic people I interviewed were part of what eventually became known as the early ] movement, and they were really unusual. The gist of their argument was that modern medicine was lying to everyone, and worse, trying to "kill" them, so "logically" (in their mind, of course), they went back to the roots of medicine to see what worked in the past. When I politely brought up that humoral theory used by the Ancient Greeks was long past its due date and didn't seem to help anyone, their answer would always default to some form of an appeal to tradition. Just wanted to share what I learned firsthand, in the field, so to speak. Oh, and speaking of MAGA, there's a guy who goes to MAGA protests and films interviews with people in a similar manner on YouTube. They are considered some of the greatest videos of all time on the internet. He basically just asks them a very simple question about what they believe and then lets the wheels turn in their head and have their say. It's some of the most enlightening interviews on the subject available. That's kind of what I was going for and getting at. One thing I learned about the MAGA videos is that they don't really believe anything at all. It's some kind of received "wisdom", an eclectic nihilism, a smorgasbord of things they heard on Fox News. I suspect that's also true for the lower-level ayurvedic believers, but the ones who are actually in that field are probably engaged in some aspect of con artistry, but that's just my opinion. ] (]) 22:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I'm laughing at the combined facts that I misunderstood you, and I was still entertaining. {{(:}} I think I'm a bit stuck on two semi-related things: feeling annoyed at the IP, and feeling annoyed at the state of things in US politics. Anyway, I think it's relevant that your interviewees said that they thought modern (aka Western) medicine was not only lying, but trying to kill them. On the one hand, they were responding to something real: the American descendants of Europeans do have a history of, literally, exterminating native peoples. That's real, and it's something that needs to be taken seriously. But on the other hand, there's a phenomenon of people developing a sense of "self" based on their life experiences, even when there are cultural aspects of those life experiences that are not based on rational thought, and then seeing something that is merely rational and valid as being a fundamental threat to that sense of "self". And ''that'' becomes an existential threat, that must be fought back against. In turn, that gets folded into the human sense of us-them, something that got hard-wired when humans were nomadic hunter-gatherers. I think those kinds of things were going on in those discussions you had. I also think those kinds of thing play a role in people who believe that Trump's guilty verdicts were an attack on ''them'', or believe that what I said about the extermination of native peoples needs to be purged from public school education. And if I'm going to be honest about myself, it may be something that contributed to my getting stuck on the things I just got stuck on. (Note: edit conflict with the additions you made to your comment.) --] (]) 22:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::No worries. Just FYI... I thought the guy who was an expert on interviewing MAGA was ], but I think it was someone else. On that note, Klepper argues along the same lines as you do, but he attributes the problem to "identity", and MAGA has a hard time changing or discarding what they hold so dear, or as you put it, their sense of self. ] (]) 22:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Found it! Don't know his name though: . This is the guy I was talking about, not Klepper. ] (]) 21:21, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::His name is Jason Selvig and he's part of ] comedy duo. ] (]) 21:32, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
			== Quick note on ] ==
			Thanks for your edits to ].
			Yeah, Labeled Section Transclusion is very weird. There might be a way to fix it so that people can directly edit those sections. I did something similar for the "edits on behalf of banned and blocked editors" thing. I could probably do something similar here.
	== If you're still interested ==
			] ] 20:23, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
			:Thanks for the note about this. I'm not sufficiently tech-savvy to know the fix, but the font really looked bizarre to me. I'm glad you don't mind. --] (]) 20:27, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
			== Belly up! ==
	I added a bit of info to ] because few editors have used that page. Much of the commenting has been confined to edit summaries on the article page. Based on my first-hand experiences, I can assure you that this particular article has created a high stress, complex working environment; not a fun ride for the happily retired, so please don't misconstrue this post as an invitation to edit. I would not do that to anyone I consider a Wikifriend. Common sense tells us that the deeper one digs, the more information comes to light, and the better the result...but better, yet, is when the findings are reviewed through the lens of a pragmatist. 🎶 Ta-da! 🎶 ] ] ] 15:43, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
	:Oh, I have no intention of editing it. I'd rather lick a cactus! But having seen the unhappiness at your talk page, I felt like it was the right thing for me to comment in the discussion at BLPN (). Having done that, I'm outta there. In general, I find that the most useful, and relatively less stressful, way to deal with that kind of content dispute is to start an RfC, and to construct the RfC as a choice between two (or more) choices that reflect the opposing views of how to write it. --] (]) 18:35, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
	:{{ping|Atsme}} Just letting you know that I saw your reply to me at ], so I'm aware of it. But as I said just above, I'm washing my hands of this, so I'm not going to look into it any further, and don't much want to discuss it any more. --] (]) 21:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
	::Oh, and about licking a cactus...I have a much . ] ] ] 21:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
	:::Now, ''that's'' a good solution to a thorny problem! --] (]) 21:54, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
	::::Uhm..."a good solution to a thorny problem"...do you have a lisp? 🤣 ] ] ] 00:54, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
	:::::You mean: "a good tholuthion to a horny problem"? --] (]) 23:24, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
			I've just created ] (can't figure out a way to relate it to ]). My wonderful talk page participants are welcome to expand and improve it! --] (]) 23:20, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	== Update ==
			:Great work. I only see four things that could do with some expansion:
	. ] ] ] ] 20:14, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
			:* More should be said about the backstory to the tongue twister. I can’t recall the exact details, but maybe it started out as a combination of nursery rhymes or teaching German language, I don’t know.
	:Thanks for letting me know! Hooray!! --] (]) 21:35, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
			:* More should be said about the technical compounding (iteration), perhaps how it differs from English or other languages. For example, the main difference is that there is no space between subsequent compound words, unlike English.
	::Damn, you guys move fast. I saw Tony's response to my emailed unblock request while I was on the toilet. I logged in as soon as I got back to my desk, and Tryp's welcome was on my talk already. I was legit hoping to announce my renewed presence with snide comments.
			:*More can be said about the most notable viral videos and succession of videos by internet celebrities, particularly the most unusual ones (the English version is particularly hilarious, as it tries to recreate it by closely translating it)
	::You know. For the lulz. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;">] ]</span> 22:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
			:*More can be said about the German people and culture involved. There’s some weird tangential discussions about the origin of the word "barbarian" and what it originally meant, etc.
	:::You must do one for the lulz and the highs. ] ] ] 00:56, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
	:::There's something oddly appropriate about finding out about it there. Flush with success, and all that! Anyway, I've really missed you. --] (]) 23:26, 21 April 2021 (UTC)		:Again, great job. ] (]) 23:37, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::I thought about quite a few of you guys a lot during the past 2 years. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">] ]</span> 01:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
			::Thanks for the very helpful feedback. I'll work on those things before going to DYK (which I think this page is tailor-made for). --] (]) 23:39, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	===Dipping my toe back in===
			:::The '']'' is now deprecated on Misplaced Pages, so you’ll want to replace that source with another before nominating for DYK. See ]. ] (]) 23:58, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	Perhaps as a sign of my improving wiki-mood, and definitely because this strikes me as a subject that WP needs to cover, I've tentatively dipped my toe (fin?) back into content editing, and started a page on ]. If ever there were a woman who has been too-long overlooked by WP, it's her. I'll be taking it to DYK in a few days. If any of my talk page participants would be so kind as to give it a look and make any improvements or suggestions, that would be great! Something that bugs me is that I haven't found any dates of birth or death, or information about life outside of work, so if anyone finds that, I'd appreciate it very much. --] (]) 21:24, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
			::::Damn! I wondered about that, and checked ], where it isn't listed, so I thought it was OK. --] (]) 00:04, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Looks like you’re correct. It’s not technically deprecated, just "generally unreliable". This is because historical use of that source prior to 1976 is still acceptable. ] (]) 00:08, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I've just been reading over the various discussions and RfCs linked from RSP, and there seems to be some sentiment that its reliability depends on what is being sourced to it. For example, it would not be reliable for politics, crime, or celebrity gossip. I'm kinda thinking the things I sourced to it might fall in the area of not-a-problem, but it's also not a hill I would want to die on. I'm going to sleep on it. --] (]) 00:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I’m not concerned, but I’m concerned others might be concerned, hence the preventative discussion. Personally, I would tend to agree with you, but that hasn’t stopped other crusading editors from removing dozens of sources from articles I wrote. ] (]) 00:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Forgot to mention ]. You'll want to add incoming links from other articles. ] (]) 19:46, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Yes, thanks, all of this is helpful to me, and I appreciate it. (Also thanks for the most recent notes in the talk section above.) I find "preventative discussion" very helpful. I've got a couple of days within the DYK time deadline, so I just need to think things through. Initially, I wanted to source the page to independent news accounts, rather than to website commentary, on the theory that this would better demonstrate notability. Some things I'm trying to figure out are: can I source what I sourced to the ''Post'' to another source already on the page, and if not, would some website be better or worse? I'll ponder all of this. --] (]) 23:29, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::As for the orphan situation, start by linking to the song ] "]", a German tongue-twister, made popular on TikTok in 2024." You'll either want to create a redirect or use that title, it's your choice. ] (]) 00:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::{{ping|BradPatrick}} in the event he has an opinion about the article title and sources. ] (]) 00:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
			Found a that can help fill in the gaps above. It's classified as "generally reliable" at ]. ] (]) 00:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	== Turn on your email ==
			:Yes, that one came up on my search, and I now don't know why I skipped over it. Thanks again. --] (]) 00:53, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	]
			::There's more. '']'', which is a good RS, has an article about the song. But it's behind a paywall. You can request a copy at ]. ] (]) 01:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	Or email me. I want to tell you something without putting it in a public place.
			::::Thanks so much for your help with this. I ''really'' appreciate the thought and effort you've put into it. I've decided to remove the ''Post'' source. What pushed me to a final decision was finding out that Marjorie Taylor Greene used a bogus headline from the ''Post'' in the hearing with Anthony Fauci. Not an RS, and I don't need it. --] (]) 14:39, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::Probably a good idea to take a look at ] and merge what you can into your article, giving ] a credit in the edit summary. ] (]) 08:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::Oh, damn. It didn't occur to me that someone would start an article using the German name instead of the English one. I'm going to put a note on the draft talk page now. --] (]) 14:39, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Any hook ideas yet? Sorry to be pushy... Given the wide availability of free images of Bodo Wartke (and Marti Fischer), you could get the first position in the DYK slot by adding images of them to the article (or just focusing on Wartke, it's your choice) and writing the hook around Wartke and Fischer. Not ideal of course, but something to consider to get the best showing for your hook. ] (]) 20:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::It didn't occur to me to look for images of those two on Commons (probably because we don't have BLPs about them here, although that's dumb, because I think they ''do'' a de-wiki). So I'm going to add images to the page right now. As for DYK, I don't care about being the first in the list, so I'm thinking instead of something jokey and hooky, like "... that barbarians go to ''']'''?" I'm considering various alternatives to "go to", such as "love". The one thing I'm still stuck on, on the page, is the sourcing for the lyrics/plot, partly because I'm not sure about some user-generated sources, and partly because I don't want any arguments about whatever verb I use in the hook not being well-sourced. (Alas, the ''Post'' had a particularly good translation of the lyrics.) --] (]) 21:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::I'm going to have to rethink the hook, because DYK disallows hooks that are entirely "in universe" for a fictional story. I'm thinking that if I bring "cake, not pie" into it, I can still use some of the plot. --] (]) 22:28, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::One thing that took me a while to learn but really helped me with hooks is to not focus on just one, but to come up with like six, and then try to narrow them down to one that works for you. In other words, brainstorming at a wider level may be more productive than narrowing down in the beginning. Reversing the process (going from general to particular) helps with coming up with hooks at first. One of the things I find slightly scary about hook creation is that the sky is the limit. I'm not ] (quite the opposite, actually), but when it comes to hooks, I find that the notion makes me slightly anxious. ] (]) 22:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::As long as you aren't ]! Thanks again. --] (]) 21:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Hey, any word yet on hook ideas? I love the shared etymology idea, but it would have to be reworked for a hook. ] (]) 22:18, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::Phew. Was worried that you had disappeared. Glad you see you submitted it. Cake vs. pie. Brilliant. ] (]) 22:57, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::Ha! I was just busy working on it, and I figured that would answer your question. --] (]) 23:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::I'm concerned about ]. Even though cake and pie are real, I don’t think the hook passes that criterion. This is a common problem. What you might do, is just straight out ask on the DYK talk page, and see what answer you get. Could save a lot of time. Also, get in the habit of creating multiple hooks. ] (]) 18:48, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::I'm continually training myself to get in the habit of crossing that bridge when I come to it. I already gave it a lot of thought, and studied numerous past discussions of that rule, and I'm personally satisfied that the cake-pie part satisfies the requirement. And I already have workarounds in mind ''if'' a reviewer has an issue about it. --] (]) 20:40, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::You're an intriguing person. I tip my hat to you, sir. ] (]) 20:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::I'm a fish, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. --] (]) 22:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I recall seeing reliably sourced articles about the lyrics two days ago. Will have another look when I get home. ] (]) 21:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Peruvian news and entertainment source ''Mag.'' has an article with lyrics. ] (]) 01:23, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Thanks. (Talk about going to the ends of the earth! {{(:}}) I decided against using it, because it means taking a German-to-Spanish translation, and then translating ''that'' into English. After more thought than it's worth, I decided to go with what I've got, and I think the page is probably ready for prime time. --] (]) 21:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::That's great! Good to you see you getting into the swing of things. ] (]) 22:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
			:Read your article and laughed. I've enjoyed introducing friends to that youtube video for years ().
			:I tend to really enjoy wordplay and punnistry : )
			:And I have a ] recording called ''A Tribute to the Comedian Harmonists'', in which they sing Veronika. So I immediately had that song going through my head. I blame you - lol.
			:Anyway, added that wikilink about the song to your article.
			:I hope you're having a great day : ) - <b>]</b> 21:32, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
			::And you, too! I'm glad you enjoyed the article, and I'm happy to take the blame. Yes, indeed, "bababababa!" Thanks for adding that to the page. --] (]) 21:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::Happy to help : )
			:::Note that Veronika was popular in the 20s too. I started to try to redo the sentence, but didn't want to get afowl of the person being quoted, so I just removed that phrase. Not sure the best way to make the line include the quote while maintaining accuracy.
			:::I also am looking at the quotes of the recent song's makers. Even though the top of the article does note the toungue twister's been around for years, they make it sound like they invented Barbara, etc. Just a suggestion, but I think the tone there probably should get a bit of neutral shifting.
			:::Anyway, minor details. Thanks for the smile of the day : ) - <b>]</b> 22:00, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::Thanks again, and I'm happy to focus on minor details. I revised the lead according to what you pointed out. As for Veronika's popularity, I'm going to go with what the source quotes the person as saying, but saying that it was popular in the 30s doesn't rule out it being popular the decade before. --] (]) 22:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
			:{{tq|Sarah Maslin Nir places the craze over the video in the context of rhubarb's place in springtime seasonal cusine in Germany. Rhubarb, along with strawberries and white asparagus, are treated as cause for merriment.}}
	It's nothing bad, I promise. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;">] ]</span> 20:10, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
			:This reminded me of the "Rhubarb pie" song segment from '']''. Interestingly, there is nothing about rhubarb in the ] article, but the ] article provides additional context explaining how it became popular in parts of Minnesota. It's interesting from a cultural perspective how it is associated with Germany in this way, because Rhubarb needs a cold climate to flourish. I wish more could be said about the relation of the plant to the culture, but that's likely going to be difficult to do. My overall point is that the Germans are growing and singing about it for good reason: they have the climate for it. ] (]) 01:43, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:I'm so sorry, and it's nothing personal, for sure, but I'd rather not. I'm super-sensitive about privacy. Sorry. --] (]) 20:12, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
			::Yeah, but don't eat the green parts of the leaves. For me, Marti Fischer in some of the videos reminds me of ]. Anyway... I '''very''' much appreciate all the help you've given me. --] (]) 21:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I get that. Would you like me to say it here? You might find it a little embarrassing, but I assure you it's no big deal. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;">] ]</span> 20:15, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
	:::Entirely up to you. I wouldn't want you to get into trouble over it. As long as it isn't a photo of me naked, I don't think I'll be embarrassed. --] (]) 20:18, 29 April 2021 (UTC)		:::I think it's you who has helped me. I'm very interested in watching article development in real time. The process is so incredibly messy, I've always wondered if there's way to improve it. Maybe we can talk about that later on down the line. ] (]) 22:36, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::By the way, if you are interested in how I got the idea for the page, in the first place, it was because I saw the first page (first page, no less!) article in ''The New York Times'', and thought this is hilarious and this is notable for our purposes. That's a typical way for me to get ideas about starting pages. For ], I heard an interview on NPR with ] about his biography of ], and he briefly mentioned that someone in Powell's crew mutilated himself, and I thought that this was worth following up on. As you can see from my (surprisingly) meager DYK stats, I don't start new pages very often. I'm personally more interested in improving existing pages or solving problems, so I have to convince myself that a new topic is something special, before starting a new page. --] (]) 20:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::{{tq|As long as it isn't a photo of me naked, I don't think I'll be embarrassed.}} No, no. I'm keeping those all to myself.
			:::::::I still don't understand why he castrated himself. ] (]) 23:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::It's regarding {{diff2|1020564252|this edit}}. I wanted to say that... Well... Tryp, '''I'm''' on the spectrum. Asperger syndrome. Was diagnosed at 14. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;">] ]</span> 20:40, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
	:::::Oh, is that all? I already knew that, because you already told me that. I wouldn't have said that, otherwise. See ]. --] (]) 20:48, 29 April 2021 (UTC)		::::::::It's such a remarkable story, isn't it? I cite two historians' theories on why, but who really knows. --] (]) 22:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Oh, wait. I just remembered something. There's a small body of literature that describes the phenomenon of drug-induced psychosis and the practice of self-mutilation. Given that Sumner was prone to bouts of heavy drinking, I wonder if that explains it. ] (]) 21:02, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Oh, okay then! I know some people get mortified if they think they ''might'' have offended someone with something like that. It's never bothered me a bit (because I've met people further along the spectrum than I and... Yeah. There's a reason "autist" became the go-to insult on the internet.)
			::::::::::Sounds plausible, but I haven't seen any sourcing for that, in Sumner's case. --] (]) 21:36, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::I had honestly forgotten that I'd ever mentioned it on WP. Makes sense though. I'm an over-sharer. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;">] ]</span> 21:21, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Understood, it's just something I think about when I read crime reports from a so-called "Florida man" in the news. Very often, there's some kind of unusual self-mutilation involved and it is something that always stuck out to me. What is it about drug-induced psychosis that makes someone think it's a good idea? ] (]) 21:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::All good! (I recently told a joke that I had forgotten I told before, on EEng's talk page, where it's no laughing matter!) --] (]) 21:33, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
			::::::::::::<small>Now, now, let's leave Mar-A-Lago out of this. --] (]) 21:47, 19 June 2024 (UTC)</small>
			:::::::::::::{{small|. ] (]) 21:50, 19 June 2024 (UTC)}}
			::::I've checked the page views, and... wow! --] (]) 22:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	== Tot ==
			*]. --] (]) 22:56, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
			*:Nice work. Still too bad you couldn't come up with an image for the main slot, even though you don't care. ] (]) 22:57, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
			*:::True, I don't care. I've got no shortage of page views, even before appearing on the Main Page. Edit Misplaced Pages, show up on Google searches. --] (]) 23:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
			*::BTW, in my lifetime, I've only had "rhabarber-streusel-kuchen" ''once'', but for the life of me, I can't remember where! I think it was in San Francisco. ] (]) 22:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
			*:::Don't forget about the QPQs. I could donate a bunch to you, but they tend to frown on that. ] (]) 23:00, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
			*::::No worries, I'll get to it tomorrow. --] (]) 23:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
			*:::::Cool, cool, cool. ] (]) 23:09, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
			:Nearly 2,500 page views, and it hasn't even yet passed thru DYK. --] (]) 21:02, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
			:And it has now passed DYK, with a lovely review from an experienced editor. --] (]) 19:19, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
			::Don't forget to follow it closely as it goes from queue to queue for preparation. It can get removed (or altered in weird ways) at any point in that process, and I've had to track down a few nominations (not my own) that were removed like this without anyone saying anything. ] (]) 19:45, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::Yes, I know. (You know, I ''have'' done this before?) I'm already watching the one I qpq'ed as it moves through. --] (]) 19:51, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::Please remember to brush your teeth tonight. ] (]) 19:57, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::] --] (]) 20:03, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
			:Now over 3,250 views! --] (]) 20:22, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
			::] There's a Wikipedian somewhere, working remotely from home, using a ] to hit F5 every few seconds. ] (]) 20:49, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
			===Gradually going off-topic===
	Hey!, please, tolerate talk page messages. You're welcome. --] (]) 21:39, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
			{{cot|Abandon all good taste, ye who enter here.}}
	:Thank you. For those watching: , . --] (]) 21:41, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
			Two new image candidates:
	::Wut. --] (]) 21:43, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
			<gallery class="left" widths="180px" heights="120px">
	:::Well, I guess you not do nothing. --] (]) 21:44, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
			File:Rhabarberkuchen mit Streuseln.jpg|Rhubarb cake
			File:Rhabarberkuchen mit Streuseln.JPG|Piece of rhubarb cake with crumbles, next to a cup of cappuccino
			</gallery> ] (]) 20:11, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			:Note: one of these images could be added to the "Cultural context" section. ] (]) 20:35, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			::Yes, excellent idea, thanks. I'm going to do just that with the image on the left.
			::And the page is now over a thousand page views in just a few days! That's not just editors here. --] (]) 20:45, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			::. Actually, I changed my mind. The image is really of a pie, with streusel topping. --] (]) 20:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			]
			I think I found the one you are looking for:
			Are we good? ] (]) 20:56, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			::We're good already, although this discussion is giving me a sugar rush. I've been going through the Commons category, and I actually found a better one, so I'm going to use that. By the way, it seems to me that drinking beer with this stuff is... barbaric. Just sayin'. Although I guess there's ]. --] (]) 21:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::The fruity beer craze in the US has been in full swing for years, but I wonder if a Franziskaner Hefe-Weissbier would go well with it. ] (]) 21:27, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::Good job, but I notice the parent category is "rhubarb pie". Should there be two categories for cake and pie? ] (]) 21:20, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::I don't care what they do with categories at Commons. It's also in the Streuselkuchen category, so go figure. There's an alternative one that's also in both (and yet doesn't look at all like a pie), and I'm going to look at what it looks like with both. --] (]) 21:25, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Wow, I just had a mild olfactory hallucination after viewing those images. I could swear I could smell the sugary streusel topping coming right out of the page. I wonder if this is a function of olfactory memory being triggered by the image? ] (]) 21:59, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Looks like you walked right into my trap!! Now with the cake pics, you have to have the first DYK slot! ] (]) 22:07, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			]
			::::::Hmm... what does ''this'' image do to you? --] (]) 23:03, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Honestly, nothing. I've only been able to visually trigger olfactory memories with something sweet or spicy. Possibly also sour and savory, but I don't recall. ] (]) 23:14, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::I was messing with you; check what kind of mushroom that is. {{(:}} --] (]) 23:17, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Oh, I know. I didn't even have to check. I wanted to play it straight. Who is messing with who? ] (]) 23:46, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Barbarian! --] (]) 22:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Oh, wait, did you realize that it's also a part of a certain prominent public figure? (Not that you'd want to smell ''that''.) --] (]) 22:03, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::You've gone too far, sir. Too far. Which reminds me, I made the same mistake the other day. I tried to tell a joke that I invented (that takes serious skills, still working on it) about how the upcoming election should be decided by Trump and Biden competing in a ] rather than a debate. Let's just say, my joke did not go over well. I was accused of being a Trump supporter. Which reminds me: we need an article about the ]. You know the one, in the tradition of ]. "Sweet fancy Moses!" ] (]) 23:14, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::] does a very funny bit, in which he describes what I assume is the same dance you are talking about, as "jerking off two guys at once". Might be a good skill for Trump to learn in preparation for prison. I feel a need to joke about this, lest I think too seriously about it and start crying over where the election seems likely to end up. I did see, by the way, what you posted about Trump on your talk page. Good thing we both edit under pseudonyms, because after the election we would otherwise be headed for the Gulag. --] (]) 23:23, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::Yeppers, that's the dance. Who could forget it? And you're absolutely right. I feel the need to joke about this because Trump has taken the country to hell in a handbasket. But as I keep reminding myself, you know what's worse than Trump? Trump supporters. I assume you saw the news today? ] has now revealed that Trump actively discussed executing a staffer who had leaked a story to the media. Of course, that's not the first time. Trump loves talking about executing people. He even took out a full page ad in 1989 ] for people later found to be innocent. Then, you've got the Trump rallies where he called for violence and killings. I've documented some of the material ]. ] (]) 23:32, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::I'm tempted to use ] to combine these two images: ] and ]. But of course I would never do that. --] (]) 23:49, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::Oh, my friend. You are really missing out. Go search for free generative AI. Have fun. I could spend all day doing this. But there’s an art to learning how to write a good prompt. ] (]) 23:52, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::Viriditas is making prompts great again. He has all the best prompts. --] (]) 23:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::Wasn’t sure if you . It’s open access, from 2021. ] (]) 02:36, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::No, that paper is new to me, but it seems plausible. As in "stand back and stand by". The scientist in me reacts to the statistical approach by thinking that it's hard to rigorously evaluate cause-and-effect, but it does make sense. --] (]) 21:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
			{{cob}}
	== Chung ==		== ] ==
			The response to her about epigenetic memory is unusually controversial. I wasn’t aware of the study on mice. Not sure why she is receiving so much pushback on this from skeptics on Hacker News, but I found her article entirely reasonable. ] (]) 21:23, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
			:It's been a long day, and I'm finally getting around to a reply. I might be able to do more later, but here is what I have now. I tried to do a quick search for that Hacker News criticism, but didn't find it, so I don't know what it was. But these kinds of multi-generational studies in lab animals that attribute behaviors to epigenetics are tricky, and it's very easy to "see what you want to see". Actual ''genetic'' changes are straightforward to document, because you can sequence the DNA, and see if it changed. But epigenetic changes – where did the change, at the molecular level, happen? For something to be passed along through generations, it can be a bit like ], does it get so diluted that it isn't "real" anymore? I've taken a quick look at the full version of that paper, , and I'm glad to see that the behavioral measurements were done double-blind. That's important here. I need some sleep, and I'll look more closely at the epigenetics and anatomy. --] (]) 02:56, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
			:OK, looking at the mouse study in detail, I find it pretty impressive overall, with the kinds of controls I would want to see in such a study. So maybe there's something there. The short version of what the authors think is that when the mice developed a fear of the smells, there would be less ] of the gene for the protein (called M71) that acts as a receptor for the odorants in neurons in the ], leading to changes in that neural pathway. They show that there is less such methylation of that gene in the sperm of the mice, and that it is associated with changes in nerve anatomy and behavior, and they do a lot of very good controls. If I want to play devil's advocate, how does that methylation decrease get passed along from generation to generation? If there were a change in the DNA sequence of the M71 gene, that would be easy to understand. But this is a decrease in the activity of an enzyme (a protein, coming from a different gene) that methylates DNA in many genes (not just M71), and there's no evidence about changes in the DNA for the gene of that enzyme. So how does that enzyme "know", in the cells of the offspring, that it should be less active at that particular gene, as it had been in the parental sperm cell? (Parenthetically, it could also be an enzyme that removes the methylation, and becomes ''more'' active, but the idea is the same.) I'm not saying it can't happen, but it's an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
			:As for the ''Guardian'' piece by Chritchlow, I don't know anything more. I note that she relates these ideas to trauma passed down by human survivors of the Holocaust, and that's such a fraught subject that I can certainly imagine some people reacting negatively to claims that what happens in mice might also happen in humans. --] (]) 20:47, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
			::Thanks for the critical read. Is it really such a fraught subject? I was under the impression that there was loads of evidence that trauma is passed down in our genes. ] (]) 21:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::I meant that the Holocaust is fraught. If it's passed down epigenetically, then it's '''not''' passed down "in our genes". There's certainly loads of evidence of trauma having physical, organic effects on the human body, but much less evidence of it being passed along genetically. Note that children can observe trauma in their parents and acquire their own behaviors from that, but ''that's'' experiential, not genetic. --] (]) 23:31, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::Looks like we have an article on the subject: ]. As for genetic changes, I was referring to the ] theory. ] (]) 00:44, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I think it's useful to note how the TT page says (correctly) that a lot of it is due to children learning behaviors from their parents or their environment. The FP page struck me as an odd topic, and maybe a coatrack. I see that it was started by student editors as part of a class project. --] (]) 20:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Interesting! I had no idea we even had an article on the subject. Maybe we could improve the topic area? ] (]) 21:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I had no idea that it was a subject. {{(:}} I personally have zero interest in working on it. --] (]) 22:46, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
			== Hmmm... ==
			{{atop|bg=FFF5F5|I'm not finding fault with anyone's posts here, but I think there's nothing more that I can contribute to this on my talk page, and further discussion should really be somewhere else. Thanks. --] (]) 21:23, 20 June 2024 (UTC)}}
			I don't think ] is an appropriate use for a user page, or the intent of this encyclopedia as an educational resource, do you? I realize user pages are more lenient, but I don't think attempts to defame other users via ]s is acceptable, much less a productive use of purpose. Your thoughts? ] ] ] 13:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
			:Completely inappropriate (unless it is temporary information being collected in preparation for dispute resolution, which this isn't). The relevant policy is ]. I've watchlisted it, but won't start action right away, because I'm dealing with too many other things at the moment. It's arguably eligible for db-g10, and definitely eligible for MfD.
			:By the way, nice to hear from you. --] (]) 18:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
			::Thank you, Tryp. It's a comfort knowing I can post on your talk page from time to time. Can you believe 13 years has flown by so quickly?!! ] ] ] 19:40, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::No worries. 13 years – don't remind me! By the way: ]. --] (]) 19:44, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::It is either highly inappropriate or really, really poor judgement to maintain lists of editors for no apparent good reason. Leave it to me to match the absurdity with a bit of my own. --]] 20:11, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Yeah, I was debating whether or not I should say something in the way of a warning, but I didn't want to rain on the cheerfulness. I guess I'll just sit back and watch what happens. It deserves to be made fun of, but it's also the wrong thing for that editor to have done. (And sheesh, I didn't even make the list!)
			:::::By the way, I hope y'all will enjoy ]! --] (]) 20:15, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
			:Atsme,
			: I received a notice that you sent me an email. I have no idea how to access it, I guess that email is on a Wikipediae email system that I am unaware off. I would be interested to read it. Please tell me how to access your email.
			:About keeping a list of editors on a talk page, is there some Misplaced Pages rule against it?.
			:I would appreciate it if you would point out where I made a personal attack on my talk page.
			:And, out of curiosity, what prompted you to have this opinion of my talk page contents. ] &#x1F43B; ] 22:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
			::See ]. This is old news, my friend. ] (]) 22:49, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::Osomite, I'll just include it here (without revealing any email addys):
	環遊世界 ] (]) 03:12, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
			:::{{quote|Perhaps I have had an occasion to cross editing paths with you at some time during my 13 years editing WP, and if so, it must have been under a different user name because I don't recall ever editing with User Osomite. Yet, I received notice that my user name was added to one of your subpages, and it is prepended by the following notice:<br/>''Trigger warning: Long-winded, self-important naval gazing and unapologetic criticism of a large number of incompetent editors who should damn well know who they are, but probably don't because, well, incompetence''.<br/>How about an explanation, your "grandness"?}}] ] ] 23:15, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
	:] --] (]) 17:16, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
			::::Yeah, the whole thing is unusual, to be honest. Never once seen "Osomite" before. ] (]) 23:42, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
	::. Fun fact! That video give me nightmares. Literally. I used to like it, too... <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">] ]</span> 17:32, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
			:::::And Osomite {{diff|User:Osomite/Stuff/More Stuff|prev|1229995390|decided to move you to the top}} of the list {{ping|Atsme}}. --]] 13:16, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Osomite is the only one who appreciates me...#1 - doesn't get any higher than that, now does it? Too bad he's unknown; just my luck. ] ] ] 20:18, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Tell him about your Patreon! You might have a sustainer donor on your hands! ] (]) 20:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::] ] ] ] 20:43, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	== Taking care with tags ==		== Re: Gulag ==
			I wanted to followup with you on your comments about the gulag. Hope you had a chance to see ]'s latest comments. Althought the biography doesn't include the full quote, here it is: "Tell you what - I do want to 'ethnic cleanse' by deporting white progressive Democrats - with a special bonus for rich ones with an Ivy League degree. I really do not like 'those people.'" ] (]) 21:45, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
	Thank you for your contributions to Misplaced Pages. In ], you used {{tag|small}} tags. But the way you did it created ] for {{tag|small}}. Whenever a {{tag|small|o}} tag is on a line beginning with an asterisk (*), number (#) or colon (:), the closing {{tag|small|c}} tag also has to be within the scope of the the asterisk, number, or colon. In other words, each bullet point needs its own {{tag|small}} markup. I fixed the error. —] (]) 22:15, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
	:{{re|Anomalocaris}} Thanks for catching and correcting my mistake. I actually do know about that, and normally do it correctly, but for whatever reason this time, I made a mistake. Thanks again. --] (]) 22:18, 30 April 2021 (UTC)		:The feelings are reciprocal. --] (]) 21:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
			::Have you got your gulag ] packed yet? Still deciding on what to put in my mine... ] (]) 22:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::Just my membership card in the cabal. --] (]) 22:11, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::Next April 1, I'm going to propose merging ] with ]. --] (]) 19:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC) <small>See ] for the cause of his difficulty speaking during the debate. --] (]) 19:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)</small>
			:::::That's cute that you think there's going to be a "next" April. ] (]) 20:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Insert joke about not buying green bananas. --] (]) 21:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Tryptofish, if you do end up in the gulag, I will slip you a secret cracker from my hidden pocket. I've got you fam. ] (]) 21:29, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::I'll refrain from making a joke about the epithet meaning of "cracker". --] (]) 21:31, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. ] (]) 21:37, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::And a mushroom is just a mushroom. --] (]) 21:48, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::You are entirely too predictable. If I was evil, I could have fun with that. But sadly, I'm Chaotic Good, so I'll just sit back and laugh. ] (]) 22:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Yeah, I should have said that April is the cruelest month. But re #6 in the list below, true story, after the 2016 election I went around wearing a "Don't blame me, I voted for Hillary" button, and I got yelled at on the street by a guy who said I should have voted for Jill Stein. --] (]) 23:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::<small>Re: , I'd like to think I have Big Fish Energy. --] (]) 20:55, 16 July 2024 (UTC)</small>
			:::::::::::::::{{small|I knew you were going to go there. I just knew it.}} ] (]) 02:56, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::<small>You have fallen into my trap. Now I can control your mind. You are getting sleepy, very sleepy. Now send my all your money. --] (]) 20:31, 17 July 2024 (UTC)</small>
			:::::::::::::That's fascinating. Looking at all the interlocking parts makes for some interesting reading. I'm no expert, but didn't Jill Stein contribute to Clinton's defeat in the same way that Nader stole votes from Gore and led to Bush's win, which helped turn the Supreme Court to the right? What's fascinating is how this connects with the ], as Powell (and others) originally named and blamed Nader for forcing their hand and creating the right-wing political movement that eventually led to Trump five decades later. Unintended consequences are a wild thing. I appreciate the work Nader did in the 1960s ('']'', 1965. We are also seeing a resurgence of these same concerns with ] in the modern era), but there's some evidence that Nader received GOP money in 2004 to siphon votes from John Kerry, but who knows if that was also true in 2000, when he did take away votes from Gore and likely led to Bush winning. Also, I think there's evidence that Jill Stein received significant help from Russian state actors on social media, and there are accusations she parroted Kremlin talking points. I think all of this could be prevented or even tamped down a bit if we had a stronger system of electoral regulation, removed dark money from politics, and limited campaigning like they do in other countries, but that ship sailed a long time ago. I just don't see how America is going to survive as a nation under all of these threats, foreign and domestic. The honest truth, is that my loyalty to the US is mostly because of how well it treated my ancestors; I feel like that deserves some kind of respect, however begrudgingly, because if my ancestors weren't allowed to come here and thrive, I would not have been born here. I'm not a nationalist, but given the safe harbor my ancestors were given, it only makes sense that I try to repay that in some way. I also think that American values, like the kind ] wrote about in regards to pluralism and democracy, are a ], so I feel like I owe a debt of some kind, although it isn't clear how it can be repaid. With that said, the barbarians are not only at the gates, they are running for president and fill the state capitals. History is a harsh mistress, but we've seen this kind of thing again and again. I don't see any way forward. ] (]) 23:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::Yes, those are ''excellent'' comments, and I agree with you very much. As it happens, just before logging in today, I was on the phone with my psychiatrist, talking with her about my depression over that exact same sense of not seeing any way forward for this country, and not feeling like there's anything I can do about it. (By the way, I've been getting some help from chewing ].) ] wrote that ], and that seems just as true in 2024 as it was in 1919. I guess I can try to cheer myself by thinking of those other barbarians, the ones who went to ]. --] (]) 20:45, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
			::Maybe we aren't going to the Gulag, after all. ;) --] (]) 19:29, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
			;Build Viriditas' personal gulag go bag!
	== WP functions and external sites ==
			#Tryptofish's Official Cabal card
	After reading a thread at the arbcom noticeboard I realized that it should be policy that discussion by "functionaries" (i.e. admin or arb member and possibly everyone involved in a case) related to ongoing processes should strictly use the expected open on-WP processes for discussion (except obviously for things that should be more private as part of those processes, or restricted to designated mailing lists and wikis). If it's not already the case (I admit I didn't research it yet) maybe it's something to look at and propose. Although we're all volunteers, in the real world we're often expected professional confidentiality, for instance; this would be a similar type of integrity expectation. ] is somewhat related... —]] – 16:08, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
			#"Trump" branded travel toothbrush
	:I need to clarify: ] are defined as Arbs, Checkusers, and Oversighters. They include neither admins nor regular editors. That said, I'm familiar with the discussion you refer to (obviously, to anyone who reads it), but I'm not seeing anything that I would formally propose. ArbCom makes its own rules, and the community can only advise about that. And we are talking about things that are in the category of "if you gotta ask, you'll never know". --] (]) 18:48, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
			# Bespoke, monogrammed orange jumpsuit with secret pocket sewn in
			# A copy of "How to Survive a Prison Labor Camp on $1 per Day!"
			# Signed copy of '']''
			# One pair of black underwear that says ] on the rear
			== Hi there ==
	== How incredibly, amazingly, impressively, ultimately, ludicrously, poignantly, wonderfully, wetly, scratchily, loosely, adjectively unhelpful of you ==
	{{atop|We are done here. --] (]) 19:29, 7 May 2021 (UTC)}}
	Don't worry, the title is just me making fun of my own comment. I'm not upset or annoyed.
			We haven't spoken for months (a year maybe?) Tryptofish? I was really inexperienced then. Ah well, I think I've reached the disillusionment phase of my wikicareer, perhaps years prematurely. There are so many things that I wish I could do, but when you look at the and toxicity that appears, continuing onward is a painstaking thing. I kind of miss the eagerness that came with being a fresher and younger contributor, and I'd never though I'd reach that point, but now after being bitterly disillusioned, my mood is kind of ebbing and flowing. I don't know how you stick with this for 15+ years and continue to be lighthearted. I kind of envy that. But yeah it's incredibly hard to not be jaded and cynical, especially when you've made a personal commitment to be nicer to others. Hope you're feeling alright :) ] ] 22:57, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
	I get where you're coming from at Bish's talk, the problem wasn't what you said, but the fact that someone (anyone, really) weighed in with something for Stonk to reply to. Now, instead of a simple request from me and an excuse from Stonk, there's an argument for Bish to wade through. Ultimately, it's not your fault (it's Stonk's fault both for making the situation to begin with, and for latching onto your comment like that), it was just a mistake. I hope I didn't sound like I was being an ass.
			:Thank you for the kind words, and I'm sorry that you're going through these feelings now.
			:I'm definitely not lighthearted all the time (but I'm probably very stubborn!). I find it's always a good idea to just step away from editing whenever it feels unrewarding, and there's no deadline for when to come back. I also think it's important to remember that, as I'm fond of saying, it's only a website. None of us owe it any effort, and the world is not any the worse if we ever decide to blow it off. Over time, I've gotten to know quite a few wiki-friends, and that's a good way to lift one's spirits. I also find that doing content work on something that isn't contentious can be enjoyable, and if I don't feel like doing anything major, just making some gnomish fixes here and there is pretty easy. And maybe your voluntarily stopping being an admin will make it easier for you to stay away from the toxic stuff. I hope those thoughts will help. I'd be glad if you find it works for you to become more active again, whenever that feels right for you, but please know that you don't owe it to anyone here to do that. You owe it to yourself to find whatever path makes you happy.
			:I can say that, for 15+ years, there has always been some community toxicity in one form or another. It's inevitable for a project that says that "anyone can edit". I've been thinking for a pretty long time about rolling my user-page back to what it was before I pseudo-quit, and just haven't yet felt the desire to do it, although I've been getting closer. If I try to put my finger on what the main problems here might be over the past year or so, one thing I'm noticing is that there is a very obvious changing of generations here. That's certainly not a problem in itself, and there are a lot of good things about newer editors and admins who have become active here in the past year. But it's definitely a largely new "cast of characters". If I focus on just the negative things, one that I can identify is that there is more of a culture of what happens at other internet sites, more of a social media kind of culture here. (That played a role in my writing ].) Another is that we have more editors who see things in terms of The Rules, rather than caring about the nuances of human interactions. (].) We've always had a significant number of such editors, but now, it feels increasingly like they are a constituency who support one another in discussions. That reminds me, that you had commented on a related point during a recent RfA, and another editor suggested at your talk that it was a more general subject, and I had been meaning to follow up with you about it. Here, I want to be very clear that what I'm going to say next isn't about anyone in particular, but is a general observation. It's worth taking a look at ] (which I did ''not'' write), because Misplaced Pages really ''is'' a "honeypot" for editors on the spectrum. Perhaps there are a lot of editors who like rules, and don't get nuance, for ''that'' reason. I don't have a good idea for how to improve things in that regard, other than that it should come from a position of mutual respect and listening, but I think it's worth discussing. --] (]) 23:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
			::Ditto to what Tryp said. I've been involved with quite a few contentious discussions lately and it has been so nice to step away and finish an old small article I started years ago (]). I find it peaceful to write about lakes and rivers. There is some old "magic" in these ancient waters. It brings a smile to my face even now discussing it. I feel those vibrations. Hopefully I can expand on the articles one day, maybe if I publish a book myself someone else can enjoy these waters by expanding the article. I love to read our articles about them too. I may never fully understand the special connection between humans and the elements, like water, but I can feel it all the same, that tug on me, and it brings me comfort. That's my happy place, my honeypot. --]] 12:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::Thanks for that. What a lovely river, and what a lovely name for a river. --] (]) 20:38, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::It's been a while @]. Do you remember me? But anyway, yeah a lot of mutual respect for our fellow editors is good. I've been thinking a lot of my role in that, and the role of others. I mean, I can't claim to have always been nice, and always played well with others when I should have. Or even listened as well as I should have. I think a friend of mine had a good way to describe this: "We need collegiality, not civility… civility is a fucking low bar". Something along those lines anyway. We all could be doing more to care about others.
			::::I've noticed that a handful of people here have a penchant to poke at flaws in others instead of self-reflecting. That's kind of what social media is about right? And also the focus on the rules. I thought your knitting essay was insightful Trytofish. But I think it's unfair when we have so many editors on the spectrum that have trouble expressing themselves and learning boundaries and ways to communicate. I'm not on the spectrum, but I do have some form of social anxiety and perfectionist personality traits, which color how I interact with others. Yes, you can laugh at me all you want for the theatrics I got into. I don't mind :)
			::::Anyway I've been taking a similar approach with wikifriends, there are a few who I've tried to warm up to privately. I'm hoping to start working in a new area after some thoughtful time reading and going for nice hikes, so hopefully that'll be a positive change. Both of you take care, ] ] 03:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::@], could anyone forget your colors? They are so beautiful. I didn't know you had a guestbook but I did correct the fact that my signature was not on it. I liked your old user name. I believe we have a lot more we share in common than we are different. It's so unfortunate in this world that humans tend to focus on the differences.
			:::::Tryp, I can't take credit for the name but I do take quite a bit of pleasure out of the fact it shares that similarity to myself, the lake as its headwaters, and the surrounding land we both traverse. I continue to sing songs of peace and love over my Wikifriends here. --]] 13:45, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::@] Aw I'm glad that you like the colors. I've changed so much since when I had my old username, some for the better, some for the worse. I thought we didn’t have much in common when we first met, but I think my values have changed to align a lot with yours. Recently I've been thinking about maybe changing my username to something else, to figuratively turn a new leaf once I get through this phase. My current one was inspired by a painting that my dad liked, but now I feel like I should choose something more true to myself. Hope you're doing well up in Alaska, I really need to visit there someday. ] ] 16:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Thanks, both of you, excellent comments. Yes, going for hikes (or really any form of getting outdoors and moving around) is something I like to do, too. Best wishes, all around. --] (]) 22:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
			==DYK for Barbara's Rhubarb Bar==
	I had to erase three comments '''I''' wanted to type there, and let me tell you, choosing not to say something (especially to say that I never asked for a block, but Stonk had gotten three warnings already, so since we're all on the same page of blocks following warnings...) for someone as deeply in love with his own voice/writings as me is an act of willpower. For someone like Stonk, I doubt it's even an option. (Note how I managed to work it in here, just to get it out of my system.) <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">] ]</span> 19:16, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
	:I think you are too close to it right now, to be seeing it clearly. And I don't want to argue with you about it any further. But I really want you to take to heart what I said about edit summaries. You just got back after the last time that some troublemaker who isn't worth anyone's time made a wikilawyer ploy about you being "incivil" in an edit summary, and the last thing that you need is for it to happen again. --] (]) 19:21, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
	::{{tq|I get where you're coming from at Bish's talk}} Why you making me repeat myself? <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">] ]</span> 19:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
	:::Because I'm ''really'' not being helpful. --] (]) 19:28, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
	{{abot}}
	==DYK for Ora Nichols==
	{{ivmbox		{{ivmbox
	|image = Updated DYK query.svg		|image = Updated DYK query.svg
	|imagesize=40px		|imagesize=40px
	|text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ''... that ''']''' was the first woman to run a ] ]s unit?'' The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ]. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page <small>(], )</small>, and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to ]. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the ].		|text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ''... that barbarians would have bought ], not ], at ''']'''?'' The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ]. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page <small>(], )</small>, and the hook may be added to ] after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the ].
	}}<!-- Template:UpdatedDYK --> ] (]) 00:03, 16 May 2021 (UTC)		}}<!-- Template:UpdatedDYK --> &spades;]&spades; ] 00:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
	:::<small>2,598 views. --] (]) 19:16, 17 May 2021 (UTC)</small>
	:YAAAAY!!
	:Sort of.
	:As I said ], I decided to tentatively stick my toe/fin back into the water of content editing and see what happens. I had heard a radio piece about ] (cited at the page), and decided that it interested me enough to create the page. So I did. It was the first meaningful content work I have done since I semi-demi-retired.
	:Writing the page, and researching it, was fun. And I'm happy with the way it came out. And the DYK review went just fine.
	:Then, at the same time as the DYK review, a rather pointless, and needlessly Wiki-policing, idea was floated at ]. As a result of the early parts of the discussion, the DYK reviewer and I decided to change the proposed hook. Still OK with me.
	:Then an admin changed the hook and put it into the full-protected queue. It was an entirely good-faith change, and it had some reason to it, but I found it objectionable because it went against what I understand the thrust of the source material to be. <small><small>(I should make the caveat that my objection was a rather nitpicking one, not earthshaking. {{u|EEng}} pointed that out at the time, and so did some reasonable people.)</small></small> But it mattered to me. And it led to some discussions that I found somewhat disappointing ], ], and ]. And that part just seems to me to be (albeit in a rather minor way) the same old same old that increasingly annoys me about the Misplaced Pages community.
	:That said, I was successful over the course of those discussion to get the hook that ended up as the final one appearing on the Main Page, to be the hook that I originally proposed (ALT0), so it worked out in the end. Good new article, good hook. --] (]) 20:28, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
	* Well done, congrats. ] (]) 21:36, 16 May 2021 (UTC)		:Good job! ] (]) 00:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
			::I still don't understand how you got away with ] here! ] (]) 00:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::Thanks, although I can hardly recognize the page after all the changes that accompanied the Main Page appearance. (I have a feeling I should just leave it to other editors for a day or so, and then go in and clean up the mess of ].)
			:::As for DYKFICTION, it's because I based the hook on the real-world distinction between cake and pie. And also my membership in The Cabal. --] (]) 22:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::I know, I was just ribbing you, you old fish. ] (]) 22:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Get off my lawn! --] (]) 22:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Speaking of lawns, historically, in the 1970s in Northern California, particularly after the ], instead of lawns, homeowners experimented with all sorts of creative ideas to give the front of their houses a certain je ne sais quoi that made it inviting and interesting. I personally knew a family who put in an entire, fully operational ], complete with aquatic garden features that went from the front all the way into their backyard and circled back around the perimeter of the house. As you can imagine, the property owners had no idea how much work was involved and there it sat, unused for the next 20 years. But you have to admire the effort. ] (]) 23:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
			:DYK day pageviews: 12,535 (522/hour), ranking #12 for the month so far. . Almost 20,000 views total since page creation. --] (]) 16:40, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
			::Rather amusing: One of the people at the website-that-dare-not-speak-its-name is criticizing the hook on the basis that the tongue twister isn't really an RS for what kinds of desserts real historical barbarians ate. Talk about DYK fiction! --] (]) 19:57, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
	== DS 2021 Review Update ==		== Scaling a cropped image ==
			Hello, Tryptofish! Re. your edit to the ] IB, just offering a tip, in case you come across one again—the feature doesn’t seem often used—that the <code>cWidth</code> & <code>cHeight</code> parameters set only the size of the picture’s frame or window, having no effect on the image scale. In this case reducing those alone cut off a bit of the site at the bottom. To preserve the framing when resizing an image formatted with {{T|CSS image crop}}, multiply ''all'' the dimensional parameters by a constant (which would have been 0.88 here).—]]] 02:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
	Dear Tryptofish,
			:Thanks for fixing it. I had commented on the talk page that I wasn't sure how to do it. --] (]) 22:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
			::I took your mention of “the map” to refer only to the Derbysire locator map—I guess I think of the Lidar scan as a kind of photo. (In my ES I offered a tongue-in-cheek suggestion for dealing with the former.) Changing the tall map’s scale by a given amount will have a larger effect on the depth of the IB than would the same change to the square imaage.—]]] 20:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::You were right. I ''was'' referring more specifically to the Derbyshire locator. But when I tried to change the size of it (and I also looked unsuccessfully for an alternative locator image), the edit that I made was all I was able to come up with. --] (]) 20:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
			== Practically a knighthood ==
	Thank you for participating in the recent ]. We are truly appreciative of the range of feedback we received and the high quality discussion which occurred during the process. We have now posted a ] of the feedback we've received and also a preview of some of what we expect to happen next. We hope that the second phase, a presentation of draft recommendations, will proceed on time in June or early July. You will be notified when this phase begins, unless you choose to to opt-out of future mailings by removing your name ].
	<br>--] & ] (aka L235) 21:05, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
	<!-- Message sent by User:Barkeep49@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions/2021_review/Update_list&oldid=1024052917 -->
			"" Good to know Kratu is doing well. ] (]) 07:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
	== Time to pick your brain ==
			:Aw, I thought you were nominating ''me'' for a knighthood. --] (]) 22:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
			::]. ] (]) 15:11, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::Ha! That made my (k)day! --] (]) 21:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
			== Stick around ==
	{{Justcurious}}a friend who has a master's in nutrition refuses to take an based on and from what I gathered, her concerns over the presence of ] being in these tests. I haven't a clue about any of it, so I scanned Google scholar (as if I could understand any of it) and came across . Do you think my friend has a valid reason to be concerned or is nutritruth.org off the charts unreliable? ] ] ] 17:29, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
	:Off-the-charts. You may, perhaps, have heard conspiracy theories that Bill Gates created microchips to go into COVID vaccines in order to track people (as if phones can't do that already), and take over the world or something. This is tin-foil hat stuff, truly loony tunes. ] is a perfectly legitimate research wing of the Defense Dept. They have sponsored research about hydrogels, in case they can be used to treat wounds, maybe by stopping bleeding. So could hydrogels, if they were present in an antigen kit, result in genocide? {{facepalm}}. The way an antigen test for COVID works is someone takes a blood sample, just like when a doctor has you get blood tests for routine checkups, or maybe a swab from the nose. That's ''taking'' a sample, not putting anything ''into'' someone. Then a lab does a test, to see if the sample reacts with antibodies that recognize a coronavirus. It's a way to evaluate whether or not someone has been exposed to COVID (or a similar virus). Now, ''maybe'', there are some hydrogels in the test kit that is used in the lab to test the sample. Maybe, I don't know. But there is no bleeping way that anything in the test kit is going to get back into the person the sample came from. No bleeping way. So it's not like the person could possibly get the hydrogel into them, or even near them. (Unless one is a wacko conspiracy theorist who believes that a microchip the size of a dime can go through a syringe needle or believes that the lab tech who takes someone's sample for an antigen test is sooper-sekretly injecting the person with a hydrogel that would leave a bulge under the skin where the needle went in, or would get sneezed out of the nose after a nose swab.) And could all of that great big nothing-burger result in ''genocide''? Duh, no. (What, me, getting all worked up?) Anyway, the genocide stuff really takes the whole thing into wacko land. Your friend's health doesn't depend on getting the test. It's just for information about past exposure. (Although an employer or health department might ask her to get one.) But if she also refuses a vaccine, that would be sad. --] (]) 21:54, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
	::Thx, Tryp - I figured as much but my explanation would have sounded very layperson to someone with an M.S. in clinical nutrition. The only thing I'm a master at is baiting...as in my <big><big>🎣</big></big> But that's another topic. ] ] ] ] 22:49, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
	:::Happy to help. As for Fish and chips, when I repeated that thing that I heard, about the size of a dime, I had a feeling that I was passing along something inaccurate. I guess I know more about corn chips than about microchips. --] (]) 23:57, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
	:::I just read, pretty much in its entirety, your Bass 'N Gal link (better than Fish 'N Chips). I didn't know until now that you had done work with birds: ] and ]. I've been a life-long birder, so I really like that! (But "One Good Tern Deserves Another": now I know where you got your taste for puns!) --] (]) 00:23, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
			I will likely jettison myself soon, but you should stick around. You have a voice of reason. ] (]) 05:00, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
	== In case you're interested ==
			:Lightburst, I'm so sorry you've had so many problems. I've always enjoyed interacting with you, even when we disagree. It's so interesting how different personalities clash while others manage to get along just fine. It's a dynamic I find fascinating. I think it might have something to do with our shared interest in music, but I can't say for sure. ] (]) 19:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
			::Lightburst, I see from your page that, for now, you're going to take a break, which is always a good choice when one is feeling stressed by this place. I'm glad you are ''there'' now, rather than retiring right away. I've gone through tough patches myself, but yes, I currently plan to stick around. As I said at ANI, I think you are being treated unfairly there. (There's a reason it's called a "cesspit".)
			::I find it interesting that Lightburst and Viriditas are the two people together in this talk thread on my page. As each of you will, separately, remember, at various times in the past I have sharply criticized each of you. But there is probably nothing that makes me happier, and prouder, on Misplaced Pages than finding, over time, that wiki-adversaries can become wiki-friends. It's really a wonderful thing, isn't it? If that makes anyone see me as "a voice of reason", well, that's what I ''aspire'' to, and if I occasionally accomplish it, so much the better. Remember, it's only a website, and people, real people, matter much, much more. --] (]) 22:33, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::I don't know about that; it feels pretty real, and I've met several people in RL from here. ] (]) 23:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
			::(''Completely'' unrelated, but I just ''had'' to link to ! --] (]) 23:18, 13 July 2024 (UTC))
			* I like Tryp. We don't agree on everything, namely Arbcom on Wiki, but as with everyone I have had experiences and discussions with here we happen to agree on more than we disagree. That's a foundation for some beautiful interactions which I believe we have had. There is enough hate and injustice in the world. I don't have time for it in my life. I would rather focus on the awe-inspiring positives I encounter daily on my journey. --]] 15:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
			*:And rest assured that I like you, too. It's so much more important to value one another as people, than to agree on whatever might be the wiki-drama of the day. Today, I just saw that ] made the DYK section, which pleases me very much because I helped the editor who made it a personal project get there. When there's so much ugliness in the world, this is the sort of thing that makes for something very happy. --] (]) 20:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::I am going to stay relatively quiet until I hear from the Ombuds about my MT report. I do not want what happened to me to happen to any other editor. {{pb}}I am glad for the evolution of relationships on here. I once had loads of friction with Tryp, Levivich, Serial Number, Dronebogus and others... but for the most part we have all done our best to squash it. I think we all see in each other, at least some measure of value to the project. Some relationships I have here are still strained, but it is not because I do not respect those editors. I also respect many of the editors who were trying to bury me last week. I am not sure what the future holds, but I am glad that Tryp and I have seen value in each other. No matter who is consistently donating their time here has importance and value. Good to see you here Viriditas and ARoseWolf. ] (]) 02:43, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::Thanks! --] (]) 19:12, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::The Ombuds finally got back to me and said "not my department". MT did not abuse the tools he just made erroneous conclusions and assumptions. So I am probably going to be participating much less, but sometimes there is an article so wrong on here... Anyway hello Tryp. ] (]) 00:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Thanks for letting me know. Please don't let it get you down. (Things don't always work the way one wants them to do around here. Just yesterday, a DYK reviewer objected to a hook that I thought of and felt was very good. But I figured "whatever", and gave him another hook, and the DYK went through.) Anyway, I saw the other day that you posted a thoughtful support comment at the RfA – so much for the stereotype that you only oppose there. --] (]) 20:25, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Thanks. I am relatively happy with my scaled back involvement here. The RfA candidate looked like a good one and I could see no reason to oppose. I scaled back my involvement with DYK or I could have helped. TLC is an admin there and I think I made a big mistake supporting them at RFA - it is a note to myself to be more careful about candidates. DYK is generally a very cool place and involving yourself there definitely helps you become a better editor. Lots of eyes and opinions. And when your article runs it gets tuned up by many proficient editors. Right now I have started an ANI which is primarily about leftover animosity from the last ANI. Regarding MT and the Ombud report. The mechanisms where a person can be fairly heard are few and most are biased. So I have to be ok with the scarlet letter MT gave me. So have a great weekend. ] (]) 16:31, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
			== Thanks for being THE voice of reason ==
	there's a current discussion at ]. Have a nice weekend! ] (]) 18:41, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
	:Thanks! By the way, I noticed that you said that you recently got your first COVID vaccine shot. I'm glad, and I hope that it's a good thing for you and yours. (I got my shots about three months ago, and I was very, very happy to get them.) --] (]) 18:48, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
			Thanks for being THE voice of reason. I don't mind if people don't like the topic, and I understand why Trump fans might object, but I'm not doing anything unusual. Articles are created by experienced users in their userspace all the time. I have done everything I can to NOT draw attention to it, to NOT misuse my space to promote or advance a POV. Yet this started with a blatant assumption of bad faith. It's weird.
	==New message from Chess==
	]&nbsp;You are invited to join the discussion at ]. ] (]) <small>(please use&#32;{{tlx|reply to|Chess}} on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 20:03, 19 June 2021 (UTC)<!-- ] -->
	==] has been nominated for deletion==
			Thanks for bringing focus back to PAG and what is allowed in the article creation process. BTW, have you read those DKY? I wrote? The topic is barely scratched at ]. This is not about the "dossier golden showers video", this is about the original rumor that Trump knew about right after it began circulation. The one that got him to send Cohen on a search and destroy mission for several years. It's a pretty big story about ''kompromat'' and national security issues. The Senate Intelligence Committee took it seriously and went much further than the Mueller Report. Cohen's 2019 testimony is the real clincher. He spilled so many beans.
	<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>''']''' has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the ] guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at ''']''' on the ] page.<!-- Template:Cfd-notify--> Thank you. ] (]) 04:25, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
	:]. --] (]) 20:32, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
	::This is a truly momentous occasion. The first time that ] has been used for its intended purpose. Centuries from now, children will look to their parents at bedtime and ask with eager voices and dreams in their eyes, "Will you tell me the story of the fun police again?" ] <small><small>]</small></small> 20:49, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
	:::''(Rolls eyes at the circumstances.)'' Thanks. I should live so long! --] (]) 20:52, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
	::::That's all you, buddy. I'm grumpy enough in my 40's, could you imagine ? ] <small><small>]</small></small> 21:05, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
	::::: --] (]) 21:09, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
	::::::That's one ''dryyyy'' fish. I wouldn't blame you for being grumpy. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 21:50, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
	:::::::Yes, drinks all around! Cheers! --] (]) 21:52, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
	::And after all ''that'', the CfD was withdrawn by the nominator. No hard feelings on my part. --] (]) 21:43, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
	:::I didn't notice this comment until after I'd left a beer at the nom's talk page and explained that I harbor no hard feelings, either. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 22:31, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
			It's fascinating how those who chased the 2013 alleged tapes and those who chased the 2016 dossier's alleged tapes, ended up, as declared by Judge Cooper, finding they were chasing "one and the same" tapes. He tied them together, in court. There is really only one very real rumor about one alleged event, and it started in 2013. Steele's sources just repeated that 2013 rumor to him in 2016. Trump succeeded in squashing the rumor until Steele's sources resurrected it. That really pissed him off, and then he made the mistake of telling very specific, and easily debunked, lies about it to Comey and others. -- ] (]) (PING me) 00:05, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
	== indenting ==
			:Well, you're very welcome, and thank you so much for the kind words. (For those who are watching here, this is about an MfD of something in Valjean's user space, where I have advocated for keep.) I don't really want to get into the subject matter that much, but I know an inappropriate use of the deletion process when I see it. (<s>I'm not sure what DYKs you are referring to.</s> Oh, yes I have read that.) I've also seen and I appreciate the other things you have said about how you feel about this, on other pages. (In particular, I had ''no idea'' about your diagnosis until you disclosed it. I've never noticed any problems with how you communicate.) --] (]) 19:27, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
	No worries, btw. I know it looks weird sticking out there, but for me for that post it's a feature not a bug. :) ] (]) 22:19, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
			:: I have always lived with the disadvantages of my Aspergers, but only learned about it after our son was diagnosed in first grade. Our daughter is fine. At the time, it was a "new" thing. It's painful for me to admit, and I have tried to avoid "coming out" with it here, but it's a simple fact that should be factored into "who I am". I don't expect to receive special treatment, but if it helps people understand me better, maybe that's a good thing. My son has it bad enough that he cannot hold a job or finish an education, so he was "retired" with a full pension at 18 years old. Even though females are much less likely to be affected, his female cousin is much worse off, and she is even going through sexual transition. Her life has been chaotic. There are several family members, primarily on my wife's side of the family, who are on the spectrum, some who function fairly well, and others who do not. I'm "only" slightly affected. It could be much worse, but it's still a daily irritation. The genetic factor is huge, and my wife's ancestry from an with a very small population meant that inbreeding occurred, hence the concentration of victims in the family. Otherwise, the incidence rate there is pretty much like other countries. There is nothing like that on my side of the family, so we don't know why it affects me and a couple others of my family members. Being a bit different meant I was a loner and somewhat socially awkward in school, so I found solace by excelling academically. Such is life. I carry on. -- ] (]) (PING me) 00:37, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
	:Thanks. I do all kinds of weird stuff. --] (]) 22:21, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
			:::Thanks for sharing this, and please know that, although some people on the spectrum have distinctive features of how they communicate, that can give-away their status, I've never noticed that with you, and only know about this because you chose to post about it. I mean that as a compliment. You have my best wishes with that MfD. --] (]) 23:22, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::: Your kindness is much appreciated, especially at a time when kindness is rare. I don't expect or want you to be partisan or less than neutral in all of this. I'd rather hear honesty, but you seem to be able to pack it in a nice package, something I often fail to do. I have never been accused of being tactful. Any good advice is welcome. I note the complaints about BLP issues. I wish I understood exactly what they mean. BLP applies to "unsourced" negative information, not negative information. NPOV means we document what RS say, without the imposition of editorial POV, and objections to "negative" content seem just like partisan "I don't like it", protectionism, and whitewashing to me. Maybe you can parse it for me. -- ] (]) (PING me) 00:59, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Thanks again. Here is how I would parse the BLP issues. To some degree, editors are misusing the BLP policy to address issues that are really the NPOV policy. I think the biggest concern is that it sounds like a ] with a negative POV. The whole "pee tape" business is widely perceived by sources, and by partisans, as something that is "negative" about Trump. Your draft comes across as "here is all the evidence that the pee tape accusations might not be a hoax". I just checked, and ] is a red link, while ] is a redirect to ]. I don't want to read that page, but I'm going to guess that it presents evidence for and against the pee tape actually existing, and gives ] to the evidence that the tape never existed. You've assembled sources (largely independent of the Steele dossier), that point toward a different conclusion. Editors are seeing that, with good reason, as a fork of the Steel dossier page, that focuses on sources that are negative about Trump. Strictly speaking, that's a POV problem, rather than a BLP problem, '''but it's still a problem''', and BLP has a sort of emotive heft that makes it an easy go-to for editors who want to sound like they are making an important criticism (see also ]). So my suggestion for how to fix the problem is to (1) look for any sources that might fail ] (I haven't looked, so I don't know whether or not there are any), and remove any if you find them, and (2) expand the page with sources that disagree with the existence of a scandal, that would present a counterpoint to the argument that the scandal is real. And, with that, write the page without taking a side (in Misplaced Pages's voice) as to which "side" is "correct". --] (]) 00:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::: While the first public knowledge of the pee tape rumor came from the dossier on January 10, 2017, and is mentioned in the Steele dossier article, that is a very misleading story, if one stops there. That article cannot discuss aspects of the rumor that are not named in the dossier, so it only mentions a small part of the full story. After the dossier made people aware of the rumor, sources began to dig, and then investigations started, and what came forth changes the story completely.
			:::::: The rumor started in 2013, right after Trump left Moscow, and Steele's sources just repeated the rumor to him. Cohen really spilled the beans with his testimony, from the inside, that revealed he learned of the rumor then, immediately told Trump, and then began a years long hunt for the source of the rumor and location of the tapes, if they existed. So we're dealing with a big coverup and catch and kill operation, with a web of secrecy among Cohen and his cohorts who tried to find and suppress the tape(s). Legal cases, and witnesses, shed even more light on what happened. Trump's many lies, very specific and easily debunked, make it even more interesting, and make him look guilty, even if he might not be. Why does he act guilty? Why did he order a hunt for tapes that did not exist? Why did he lie about the exact and only time the incident could have occurred, when no one had mentioned that time yet? Only he would know that. Comey changed from a skeptic to a maybe peeliever. So how do we tell that story without it being negative about Trump? We always include denials with allegations, per NPOV and BLP. But whe the denial is a huge lie, what then? Do we leave it out, even though documented in the most impeccable sources? Negative content that is properly sourced is allowed and does not violate our BLP and NPOV rules, sometimes even when it is the largest portion of the article. We have rules that expressly allow articles of that type, because articles on some topics cannot be other than negative. -- ] (]) (PING me) 00:59, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::As I said earlier, I don't want to get tangled up in the content, but my advice that I gave just above is how I think one can avoid the BLP criticisms. The alternative is to hunker down and keep arguing that you think you are right, but that way lies more drama. --] (]) 01:21, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::: Yes, hunkering down wouldn't be good. Unfortunately, I still am at a loss to understand the problem without mention of the specific contents considered a problem. Maybe I should explain the "fork" issue. This article is like an article about one "bird" with lots of info and the full context. The dossier article just mentions the "bird" in passing, and only partially and misleadingly out of context. Both articles are legitimate. (Once this article is established, the Steele dossier article's content about the pee tape and rumor will need to be tweaked a little bit so it's at least accurate.)
			:::::::: The Steele dossier article isn't an article about the pee tape. That is not the primary topic. That is only one of many allegations, so it gets very little attention, and only in the context of the way the dossier mentions it. This is about the 2013 pee tape rumor as a whole (only secondarily, but necessarily, about the alleged tape), and ''kompromat'', as those are the real issues. This is about the whole story, and the ] section would link to this as the "main" article for the topic. Nearly everything else here is not mentioned there.
			:::::::: This is about an FSB operation to compromise Trump with a honey trap inspired by Trump's own revealing actions at a Las Vegas nightclub, and he appears to be a willing "victim". He also did some other, very public, sexually embarrassing things while in Moscow, and they have been publicized before the dossier was written. They are not mentioned anywhere at Misplaced Pages. He physically accosted two different girls and propositioned them, all in public. He claimed to be very careful, but he wasn't. He was also involved in a loud row with hotel security. A group of prostitutes wanted to come up to his room without signing in, and Trump was with them and defending them. He was also seen in an elevator with a group of prostitutes. This is all what witnesses said.
			:::::::: Sources draw a narrative of him being set up by the FSB and his Russian acquaintances, who had close ties to the FSG and Putin, then trying to suppress and cover it up, and after the dossier repeated the old rumor, lying about it to Comey and others. Then his own lawyer testified and revealed the whole story, right from the beginning in 2013, and testified about how "many" people knew of the rumor and were involved in trying to suppress it. Cohen revealed the dossier didn't originate the rumor.
			:::::::: It's hard to tell the facts about Trump's lying, as described in many RS, in a positive manner, as that would be dishonest and violate NPOV. The RS describe those lies as a negative fact that demonstrates his ]. How can anyone claim that's a BLP or NPOV issue? Maybe they're referring to something else? I wish they'd tell me. Discussing this in hypotheticals doesn't work. -- ] (]) (PING me) 04:41, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::As I've said, I don't want to get tangled up in the content issues. I'd prefer that you not continue to post summaries of what the draft page says, here on my talk page. As an alternative, you can ask me to look at such-and-such a section of the draft page, to make the same point. That said, I do understand that you are trying to use specifics, rather than general principles (hypotheticals, as you refer to them), to get a clear understanding of what I'm trying to say, and I do want to cooperate with you on that.
			:::::::::(Before I get into the details, I just looked at the MfD page, and I see that you left a talk page message to the editor who most recently commented delete. I want to suggest that replying to every delete comment can look to uninvolved editors like bludgeoning, and I also want to say that it's a waste of time trying to reason with that particular editor, who is a notorious POV-pusher. My guess is that the MfD is headed towards a "no consensus" close, which is functionally the same as "keep".)
			:::::::::Now getting back to the matter at hand, I took another look at the draft page, and I'll try to name here some specific things that I saw, that I would regard as significant POV problems. Something I noticed very quickly were the draft section headings. Some of them are: "Trump's lies to Comey", "Trump's phony alibi and excuses", "List of repeated and unforced lies to Comey", "Attempted cover-ups, evasion, and attempts to find the tapes", "Trump's behavior makes him vulnerable to blackmail", and "Trump as national security risk". And that's only a partial list. (And my head is reeling, just typing it here, even though I'm absolutely no defender of the guy.) When you said above that "It's hard to tell the facts about Trump's lying, as described in many RS, in a positive manner, as that would be dishonest and violate NPOV", you misunderstand NPOV, and I want to explain why I consider it a misunderstanding. Every one of those section titles violates the NPOV policy, and does so rather badly. Maybe there are RS that substantiate each of the assertions in those headers (I haven't checked, and I don't know). But those assertions need to be attributed to those sources, not stated in Misplaced Pages's voice (whether in section headers or in the paragraph text). The existence of such sources does not make it honest to word those headers in those ways. Here are my suggestions for some possible better ways to write each of the headers I quoted: "Trump's statements to Comey", "Trump's explanations", "List of disputed statements to Comey", "Problems in attempts to find the tapes", "Vulnerability to blackmail", and "National security risks". (There are doubtless other ways to write those, but that's what I came up with.) I ask that you look at each header, as I quoted it from your draft, and as I revised it here, and compare them side-by-side. I hope that you can see the differences, and how my revisions are actually the right way to be NPOV. If that's unclear to you, please ask me.
			:::::::::I won't list further examples for now, hoping that this has provided an explanation that you can extrapolate to the rest of the draft. I'll also suggest that you review ], because Misplaced Pages articles cannot correct problems in what the media are reporting. Misplaced Pages can only report what the sources say, without taking sides. When editors look at your draft page, the same things stand out to them, that stood out to me. Editors come away with the impression that "this is a lot of stuff attacking Trump", and they make a mental jump from that, to "BLP violation". Even if they are being imprecise about what the BLP policy actually says, that's the thought process. If I may say so, you should want neurotypical editors to look at the draft page, and think to themselves "this is presenting facts about what happened", rather than "this is a lot of stuff that is all negative". I can see now that I agree with you that this isn't really a content fork, but when something comes across the way your draft currently does, even I had a subjective reaction that it was a content fork.
			:::::::::I hope that's clearer. --] (]) 21:01, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::: I love it! You are very clear. It's interesting that before you wrote the above, I had tried to look at the headings with different "glasses", and I had been working on changing exactly those headings, but my versions may be different than yours. I'll go back and probably use yours, as they are much likely to be better. Thanks for being so patient. It's much appreciated. I also agree about that editor. NOTHERE comes to mind, but sometimes they do make good edits. It's just any topic related to TFG that is a problem for them. I'll move the message to their talk page. -- ] (]) (PING me) 22:14, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::{{(:}} --] (]) 22:16, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::: Okay, I have heeded your excellent suggestions and revised those, and other, headings. Are there any left that are borderline or dubious? What about the title? I wonder if I've tried to cover too much territory, since this is a national security issue. One could split it into two articles, one about pee tape rumor and another about Trump as a national security risk. There is a lot of stuff about that. -- ] (]) (PING me) 22:39, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::: is an interesting development. They were willing to come here and abuse the MfD process, but not defend themself or be collaborative and collegial. Hmmm.... I really wonder who they are. I have suspicions, but... -- ] (]) (PING me) 23:15, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::The header changes I suggested were examples, and only skimmed the surface. I just made, and then self-reverted, a more comprehensive revision of the section headers. You can look at the version where I changed them, and see what you think about that. I think it's important for me to point out that it will be necessary to significantly change the text itself. The section headers are just a beginning of that.
			:::::::::::::It's true that the page covers a lot of stuff. It would probably be best to NPOV it first, and then evaluate what to do about page scope. I think there might be sections that could be combined.
			:::::::::::::Yes, I saw that retirement statement. Probably best not to comment about it until the people with advanced permissions make a determination. --] (]) 22:29, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
			{{od}}
			I like those changes and will give you permission to make such changes. As it's in my userspace, such permission is necessary, unlike a draft in draftspace. I'll add a note to that effect. We can discuss any changes that are of consequence. You may want to do it on my talk, or just continue here. It's up to you. If there are any sources that aren't the best (it's all on a case-by-case basis), we can also discuss that. I might be able to find better sources. -- ] (]) (PING me) 23:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
			:{{ec}} Thanks for giving me "permission to edit" (which, strictly speaking, I do not need). But I really do not want to do that work for you. It would become very time consuming for me, and it's just not something I want to get tangled up in. I'm happy to give advice, but you are going to have to do this yourself. --] (]) 23:33, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
			:: Strictly speaking, that's an important difference between userspace and draftspace, and it's not absolute. There are exceptions, but they have to be good ones. I understand and respect your reticence. Just offer the help you feel comfortable with. I'll be grateful for anything. -- ] (]) (PING me) 23:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::Actually, there is no policy basis for saying that other editors need your permission to edit something in your userspace. That's a misunderstanding on your part. There's a matter of courtesy in avoiding editing someone else's userspace content, but it's not a policy violation. I can see at least one good-faith editor at the MfD who is holding it against you, that you discourage other editors from editing it. --] (]) 00:02, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
			Here's what I posted there. The "exception" I mention is indeed about courtesy. It's not absolute. In that you're right.
	== off of EEngs lawn ==
			''Relevant guidelines for this MfD'''
	Apparently, local women who had a pretty decent grasp of English would spread around crude English phrases as a joke, saying it was the properly formal way for a young woman to greet a young, foreign man in American culture.
			Different "]" here at Misplaced Pages are governed by different rules, and that includes the rules for MfDs. Valjean's work here is governed by personal "]", not ] (which governs drafts in "draftspace"). Unlike a "personal userspace draft",
	My favorite instance was when we were posted up inside a smallish shed near the back of some friendly farmer's property watching a small compound and waiting for orders. Middle of the day, the farmer's mischievous wife sent their daughter out to us with tea and a "proper greeting". By that point we'd heard it all before, so when she came in with the tea and greeted us with "You have a pretty cock," my buddy Jay didn't bat an eyelash, just smiled and said "Ashkuruk," ("Thank you") as he took the tea. I still like to remind him of that, usually in an as out-of-the-blue way as possible.
			: "Articles in the ] namespace can be edited and moved into the main encyclopedia by anyone. So you can create the draft in your personal userspace, move it to the draft namespace to be edited by anyone, and later move it to the main encyclopedia."<small>(Source: ])</small>
	It's an ''extremely'' common joke, and I've even heard it here in the US (and may have given a few friends some foreign language "pickup lines" or "customary greetings" myself...) ] <small><small>]</small></small> 22:30, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
			This implies that a user has ''nearly'' full control of a draft in their "personal userspace", both creation and publication, but not their work in draftspace. (That "nearly" implies that control is not absolute, as with all things at Misplaced Pages. There are exceptions to every rule.) If I'm wrong, please enlighten us. -- ] (]) (PING me) 23:58, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
	:That's very interesting! I, like a lot of Americans, have a stereotyped image of Middle Easterners as religiously conservative and repressed, but I keep seeing how people are people the world around. So it's really quite reassuring that young Iraqi women can act like young American women, so long as the wrong people aren't watching them. By the way, I would figure that Iraqis would speak Persian, rather than Arabic. (I should also say that I've had Iranian grad students working in my lab, and they were quite sophisticated about Western culture.) --] (]) 17:05, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
			:As we seem to agree, this is primarily a matter of courtesy. The distinction I would make comes down to the fact that no policy says that you can ''demand'' that courtesy. If some editor, not me, to whom you never offered an invitation to edit the draft page, were to make such an edit, they would not be doing something that is intrinsically against policy, intrinsically disruptive. If the edit improved the draft page, it would be an acceptable edit, permission or not. When you make it sound like you want other editors to get your permission before they can edit the draft page, it sounds to other editors like you are claiming something more than courtesy, claiming something more like full control, and they are understandably reacting negatively to that. --] (]) 00:25, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
	::Arabic and Kurdish are the official languages, and there's a lot of Arab influences in the Iraqi identity. Half the country is on the Arabian peninsula, after all. They don't even recognize Farsi as regional language, though lots of more rural folks near the border with Iran speak at least a few words of it, and there's tiny pockets of fluency here and there.
			:: I get my understanding from this wording: {{tq|"Articles in the ] namespace can be <u>edited</u> and moved into the main encyclopedia by anyone. So you can create the draft in your personal userspace, move it to the draft namespace to be edited by anyone,..."}}
	::Yes, most of the people I met over there were quite conservative, but there's a lot of universalism in humanity. Rednecks are quite conservative in the States, yet no-one would be surprised to hear one make a dick joke, and my unit spent our first deployment out of the cities, in the sticks, where all the Iraqi rednecks are. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 17:09, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
			:: So an {{tq|"article in the ] namespace can be <u>edited</u> and moved ... by anyone"}}. When it's in "personal userspace", that can't happen. (That's where "you can create the draft in your personal userspace"). It's created/edited by you in your own "personal userspace". When you later {{tq|"move it to the draft namespace"}}, it can {{tq|"be <u>edited</u> by anyone".}}
			:: I'm not a lawyer, but my parsing has been used by a judge to decide a case without even calling witnesses. The judge just wrote their decision and quoted almost word for word from my statement, and threw out the case, thus saving over 30 people and entities from a trial.
			:: Maybe my parsing is wrong here, but it appears to me like there is a difference between "personal userspace" and "draft namespace". If there isn't a difference, what's the point of having them?
			:: I know they are "reacting negatively", but that's because they are approaching this draft as if it was in "draft namespace", when it isn't. There's a difference. Am I totally off my rocker? The guideline could be changed to eliminate the difference, thus preventing my apparent "misunderstanding", but I think it would be better to protect editors from harassment by making the difference even more clear, and thus prevent this abuse of MfD. Removing editor protections would lessen the incentive to write articles, especially controversial ones. What editor wants to go through what I'm going through? POV warriors would just harass them while they are trying to create an article. These POV warriors don't care about GNG. They want to prevent full and accurate NPOV coverage of their favorite topics. -- ] (]) (PING me) 03:13, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::Before answering here, I looked at the MfD page, and was happy to see that no new drama happened since I logged off yesterday.
			:::Anyway, you are definitely not "off your rocker". {{(:}} But I'm starting to notice some things as we discuss this, that I hadn't noticed before, that perhaps may reflect differences in the ways that neurotypical and divergent editors interpret some things. It's true that the language says explicitly that content in draft space can be edited by anyone. But there is no policy that explicitly says that content in user space ''cannot'' be edited by anyone. To the contrary, ] ''is'' a policy, and you can find the answer in the section ]. Please read what it says there, and I think it's self-explanatory. The policy language there trumps (no pun intended) what you have inferred from something that the other language, about user space, leaves out. (I suspect it leaves it out because of that issue of courtesy that we discussed earlier.)
			:::I hope that's clear enough. I agree with you that some editors at the MfD are motivated by pro-Trump POV-pushing, although there are others who have sincere beliefs about the BLP policy. I've been attempting to point out the flaws in their arguments (and I have ''a lot'' of experience in navigating POV disputes, so I know what works and what backfires). But one has to contend with such editors nonetheless, and they can make things difficult when you are trying to save a page from deletion. And I can give you my very strong advice that the best defense is to fix the numerous and significant POV problems at your draft page. --] (]) 23:25, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
			The BLP arguments at MfD are dubious. We do not delete an article or a draft just because a BLP violation exists somewhere in it. We fix that specific content, and if they point to such a spot, I'll fix it. I am not saying that such an actual BLP issue exists here. Everything is sourced. There is only one source we don't normally use (Medium), and in this case it's for a totally neutral, non-BLP, matter, from a Pulitzer Prize winning NYTimes reporter. On a case-by-case basis, it passes muster for this specific use.
	== Request (Atsme) ==
			Without them pointing it out, I'd guess it's more likely potential NPOV issues they are seeing, as I am not making "unsourced" negative claims. That would be a BLP issue. So far, they are just making evidence-free claims, and they are offensive aspersions, IOW NPA violations. They need to stop it. They have likely not even read the content, just seen the word "lies" and assumed it's a BLP violation. Well, it isn't if it's backed by RS. (We have a whole article about his lies!) Even if true and properly-sourced, phrasing can be an NPOV matter, that I'll admit, but it's not a BLP matter. Sometimes, choosing the right synonym makes all the difference. As Trump is a public figure, the bar for BLP inclusion of negative content is pretty low, but I still use good sources.
	Please read the Conclusion of this , which in retrospect, I question calling it a "staple food", which is a rather exceptional claim. When trying to find other sources to support such a claim (2008), I was not very successful. The other issue is that the reference to "staple food" is not just about the alligator gar so it could be misconstrued. The reference speaks to various species of gar. While researching for more sources to support "staple", I found material that is far more worthy of inclusion as an update, so I replaced what I consider to be "meh" material with updated material. I certainly don't want to get into an edit war with an IP over the inclusion of "staple food" vs "popular food choice", so hopefully the update will suffice - maybe it won't, so I'm simply seeking your opinion as a former collaborator, a scientist and someone who is knowledgeable about fish & aquariums. ] ] ] 21:09, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
	:The source seems to me to be a detailed examination of how gar fry develop (]) and how that applies to aquaculture of them. Aside from that one phrase within one sentence in the Conclusion section, it's not really about how big or small a role in people's diets gar have. So it seems to me that, as an editorial matter, it can be "safe" to say "staple" and attribute that to this source, because that's literally the word they use – but it's not a source that I would want to use for how many days a week people eat it, or whether they eat it because they like it, or because they depend upon it for nutrition. Consequently, I think the IP was making a mountain over a molehill to argue with you about it. And I also think the best editorial strategy is to do exactly what you did in your most recent edit to the page: just drop the sentence entirely, and replace it with a more directly-relevant source, from which you quote verbatim. I think you handled it the right way. --] (]) 21:28, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
			I appreciate your honest and good-faith attempts to guide this in the right direction. You are one of the few who is AGF here. There are lots of IDONTLIKEIT arguments. -- ] (]) (PING me) 23:55, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
	== Request (TOA) ==
			:Thanks, I'm trying to do what's right. Suggestion: save a copy (maybe in a word processing program) on your computer, just in case. --] (]) 23:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
			:: Good idea. -- ] (]) (PING me) 00:00, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::I'm increasingly getting the sense that the MfD is going to end in "delete", so I increasingly think that saving a copy off-site is in your best interest. --] (]) 22:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
			I have some more specific suggestions on improving the draft. (I'm saying this without having looked at ''any'' of the sources, by the way.) Please start by reviewing these two pages: ] and ], and particularly their lists of sources that are either deprecated, or considered questionable. Then go through every source that you cite on the draft, and identify any citations from sources that are listed at either of those two pages. If you have any citations that are listed as deprecated or unreliable, delete them from the draft. If there are any sources that are listed as sometimes reliable, but possibly questionable for politics, current events, and the like, delete them too. If there are any sources where you see it as a matter of opinion whether they are OK or not, delete those as well, even if you personally feel like that is overkill. The goal is to remove ''any'' source that other editors might find a reason to question.
	Regarding "Then, <s>out of the blue,</s> TOA posted a trollish comment that served only to complain that if BHG had been blocked, then MPants should have been, too."
			Then look over the remaining citations for any sources that could be characterized as "self-published", as defined at ]. Anything fitting that description, delete that too.
	That is not what I said. I respectfully request that you strike, and/or apologize for, the remaining part of that comment. Implying that I am a troll is a violation of NPA. And it is posted in a BHG section and not a MPants section, so per AGF you should interpret it as my opinion as to what should happen to BHG (rather than a complaint about how the MPants thread went). Thank you. 23:36, 9 August 2021 (UTC) ]&nbsp;]
	:No, I'm not going to do that. --] (]) 23:42, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
	::Why not? 00:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC) ]&nbsp;]
	:::I stand by what I said, and I don't buy your reasoning in your request here. --] (]) 00:12, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
			Then look critically at ''all'' the remaining citations, and ask yourself very honestly whether there are any where you have used the source to cite something that the source only mentions in passing, but where it is not the main point of the source. Delete those, too.
	== Thought of you when I saw this ==
			At this point, look back over the text of the draft page. There will potentially be content that no longer has sourcing cited to support it. Delete all of that material. I don't know how much material that will be, because I haven't checked it myself. I'm sure this is something that you can do, on your own. It's possible that a significant amount of the draft will be removed. But once you have done that, you will have gone a significant way towards fixing POV problems, and fixing perceptions of BLP problems. Check back with me after you have completed that. --] (]) 22:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
	A short jog down the road from me is The viz is poor right now, at least for anything beyond 5 to 10 feet in front of the camera. Looking out my window now, I can see some surface chop so the wind must have kicked-up a bit of sand in the shallow water (we have 50 to 100 ft. viz a little further out where the reef begins, but close to shore, it's not so good.) Anyway, there's an interesting diversity of reef fish that come and go, so it can be quite relaxing with the right kind of music in the background. ] About to be heading for the US in a few hours. ] ] ] 13:52, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
			: There are no deprecated sources or sources not approved at WP:RSP. I have regularly double-checked. What you're asking goes far beyond our PAG for sourcing and verifiability, but I understand your suggestion is out of an abundance of caution. What I have done is my usual practice of using sources on a case-by-case basis, recognizing that no source is always reliable, and some sources are reliable in certain instances, but not in others. Opinions are usually attributed and/or in quotation marks. Maybe you should take the time to read the draft. It won't take long. Treat it like you would an article in '']'' or '']''. (Yes, I know we have other rules here. Unlike them, I cite all my sources. {{;)}} )
	:Thanks. It's a lovely thing to watch, and I've bookmarked it to watch often. Have a good and safe trip! --] (]) 19:17, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
			: Maybe I'll end up having to only tell part of the story (but which part?), IOW bow to whitewashing demands. The question is which RS to ignore, and how to do it without violating our goal of documenting the sum of all human knowledge (about this topic) as it's told in RS. Anything less is unwikipedian, but those are the demands of some editors who don't want any of this at Misplaced Pages even though it easily passes GNG.
	==Happy First Edit Day!==
			: Did you see my talk page thread there? -- ] (]) (PING me) 23:23, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
	<!-- ##RW UNDERDATE## -->
	<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color:#E6E6FA; border: 1px solid #7D00B3; margin: 0.5em auto; padding: 0.5em; width:90%; text-align: center">]<span style="font-weight:bold;font-size:125%;">Happy First Edit Day!</span>]
	Have a very happy first edit anniversary!
			: I forgot about from a source I mentioned above. That is '']'', which is normally not used, per WP:RSP: "should be avoided unless the author is a subject-matter expert". The author is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist for the New York Times, and the content is totally neutral and not problematic in a BLP sense. I believe that on a case-by-case basis, it passes muster for this specific use. I don't usually use it, but it contains a nice timeline (with its sources) that harmonizes with what other RS say. It's compiled by lawyer and journalist . "Abbie VanSickle is a lecturer at the journalism school and a reporter for The Marshall Project, where she covers criminal justice in California. She has also worked as a reporter for the UC Berkeley Investigative Reporting Program, the Center for Investigative Reporting and the Tampa Bay Times." -- ] (]) (PING me) 23:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
	From the ], ]<sup>]</sup> 06:31, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
			::I'm not the person you need to convince. You are, of course, free to take responsibility for the draft in whatever form you think is best. I do wonder, however, why my careful following of the "mainstream media" has never led me to coverage about the pee tape allegations being true. I think that good-faith editors who are not POV-pushers might look at the draft and think "why is this page emphasizing things that I thought mainstream sources had dismissed as a hoax?" Again, you don't need to answer that ''for me'' – and I don't want you to – but rather, to improve the draft page so it doesn't come across that way. --] (]) 16:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
	</div>
			::PS: I'll add a neurotypical suggestion that making some concessions on page content, even if you feel those concessions are unnecessary, can be a way to win over editors who are skeptical. It's like a gesture of good faith. --] (]) 16:37, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
	:Happy Wiki-birthday, Trippyfish. Our interactions have been such a joy. I'm honestly glad I "found" you on Atsme's talk page. I spend a fair amount of time in user space because, in my opinion, building community relationships is a crucial element to improving the encyclopedia and the atmosphere surrounding it. {{smiley|2}} --]] 12:23, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
	::Thanks, and once again congrats on your good news, at your talk page! --] (]) 19:30, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
			::: The premise of RS is that the allegation first publicly appeared in the Steele dossier, and that pretty much all coverage occurred on and after January 10, 2017, and focused only on Steele and the dossier, as if that was the origin and creator of an unproven salacious allegation about Trump. Most coverage happened then, and as there were no investigations, testimony from Cohen and others, etc. '''at that time''', it was immediately rejected as a preposterous, salacious, and ridiculous allegation, a hoax, and lots of other accusations against Steele based on zero evidence. That, for many, is their unchanged image of the story. They don't know that much more came to light later, but, because it's an icky topic, it was largely ignored. It's as if journalists were afraid to touch it. But many still did their work and learned a lot more. You just have to find and read the sources. That's what I have done, and it's all in RS. I have done a lot of work. Contrary stories exist, with denials, but they are in unreliable sources, ergo they do not have due weight for mention here.
	== Your wiki-friend ==
			::: If you want NPOV "balance", and we do, RS do provide it. The counter balancing story to the "maybe the pee tape" does exist is Trump's denials and lies about it, and that doesn't help him. There is no "good" way out of this for him. He closed that door by repeatedly lying about it, and in the most childish way possible, telling lies about the timing that only a perpetrator could know. Those lies were like a traile of bread crumbs for Comey and journalists, leading to a number of RS alleging a certain time period where the incident might have happened. "MIGHT HAVE"!!! Not DID happen. We don't know for sure. When one looks at the timeline for Trump's weekend in Moscow, a very welll-documented timeline, there is really only one time period where it could have happened, and Trump claimed, without prompting, that he wasn't even in Moscow at that time. Well, his own bodyguard, pageant host, social media, his own tweets, flight records, etc. proved he was lying. A false alibi is admissible evidence as a proof of "]". Comey was the first, but not only, one to use those words about Trump's lies.
			::: After that, and more under the radar (unless one reads more widely than the popular press), one finds that many RS went deeper and found that the allegation did not start with Steele's sources, and that Trump learned of the rumor right after he left Moscow in 2013, and assigned Cohen the job of tracking it down. (How many people know that? We never mention it at Misplaced Pages, yet it's a proven fact.)
			::: The Mueller report only touched the topic, but deliberately did not go deeper, yet a footnote became the ONLY subject of a whole lawsuit, and that lawsuit, much to the consternation of its instigator (Rtskhiladze), revealed that he had changed his story and likely lied to Mueller, and that he had good reason, provided by evidence in his own emails, to believe that the alleged salacious tapes of Trump with prostitutes he had been hunting for Cohen, and the tapes mentioned by Steele, were "one and the same" tapes. That's what Judge Cooper said. He revealed that Rtskhiladze's claim that the tapes he had "stopped" were "fake" was likely not a good faith claim. To the contrary, Rtskhiladze, Cohen, and Trump had all acted as if the tapes were real and had to be suppressed by any means, and Cohen said he was willing to pay a lot for them.
			::: The Senate Intelligence Committee report went much deeper and really examined the pee tape rumor, including lots of evidence of witness testimony and allegations of many forms of Trump's alleged salacious activity in Russia and his vulnerability to blackmail.
			::: Then we have Cohen's own testimony in 2019, where he spilled the beans even further, proving that Steele had nothing to do with the creation or origins of the rumor. (How many people know that? We never mention that a Misplaced Pages, and the Steele dossier article is currently in error.)
			::: The picture that emerges from all these RS is not of "the pee tape allegations being true", as you put it. The picture is that there is more evidence that it is likely true, no evidence that it is false, and that '''we do NOT know if it is true'''. I am like Comey, who is open to it being true. There is no evidence that the story is false or a hoax, contrary to what many sources say. So after January 2017, many sources went much further, and that's what I discovered, and what we do not cover. There is a GNG size hole in our coverage of the "sum of all human knowledge" on this topic. It is our duty to include it. The question is how to do it best and most faithfully to what RS say. I don't have a magic answer for that question. -- ] (]) (PING me) 18:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Sorry, tl;dr. --] (]) 17:07, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::: And now I'm pinged that Nickps has dragged me to ANI. I only asked him to provide evidence. That's a reasonable request not worthy of misusing ANI. -- ] (]) (PING me) 18:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I'm glad that the MfD has closed as "no consensus". And I've made my views clear at ANI. --] (]) 17:07, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
			== You still amaze me. ==
	Tryptofish,
			Thank you for your voice. --]] 11:17, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
	I appreciate to give a thoughtful response] to my post at ANI. I will say that I was not surprised at the results. I predicted them myself -- people thinking that "pilgrim" is not a problem and not caring about the targeting, folks just piling in with the jokes, and nothing getting done. The end result is that I now have a powerful editor (and I'm ranking power not in admin-bits but in support and "wiki-friends") who has been effectively told that there is nothing against the rules about taking deliberate efforts with the sole apparent reason of making me uncomfortable, and that nothing will be done about it. No one even suggested that they should say that they wouldn't do this again in order to make this go away.
			:You are very welcome (needless to say!). When I saw your post on your user talk page, I remembered my own feeling when, a couple of years ago, I felt the same way and posted similarly. I know what that feels like, and I care about making things right when wiki-friends feel that way. So that's why I said what I said at the WikiProject talk page (). In fact, editors going around and making drive-by edits that get in the way of what other editors are trying to accomplish, and doing so simply in the name of keeping things supposedly "orderly", is one of the things that especially annoys me. And I've recently seen this happen at some of the WikiProjects I keep an eye on, where somebody who is clueless that I'm watching there comes by and labels the project "inactive" (with a template that actually discourages new editors from making it active again). So, I'm happy to call BS when I see it. And in your case, there was also the much greater harm of making good-faith editors feel unwelcome because of their personal backgrounds. I have no use for that. If you run into any such situation, please always feel free to ask me for whatever help I can provide. --] (]) 23:04, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
			::It's been a series of, in my opinion, egregiously biased discussions against Indigenous people and Indigenous owned/allied media sources on Misplaced Pages. Mocking Indigenous editors by saying that capitalizing Indigenous shows favoritism over other groups of people, like "colonials" and "religious" people, pushed me over the line. That editor has no business even discussing Indigenous topics let alone editing them. Their entire argument was based on that and worse, it was accepted in the close. We were said to have provided no policy and guideline evidence in the discussion despite presenting English language style guides, the statements from multiple reliable sources that Misplaced Pages uses on the regular, and the United Nations making a addendum to their own writing guidelines for member nations. They called the use of style guides as a source a preference and said that our preferred style is not shared by everyone. They said it doesn't matter how sources write something because ewe shouldn't be copying them anyway. They said the UN is inconsistent and we don't have to follow them either. I personally don't give a damn what they think or care about their opinion about subjects they have no business commenting on. Keep your racist and bigoted views to yourself. The rest of the world has long since passed Misplaced Pages by and these entrenched racial views need to go. --]] 14:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::Yes, that's sad. --] (]) 17:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
			== EEng ANI thread ==
	And yes, I am teetering on the edge of resigning Misplaced Pages. I am an editor with a long and substantial history of contributing to this project, and so of course I've dealt with a lot of problems -- determined vandals, aggressive and abusive COI editors, newbies whose vision for how Misplaced Pages should work overrides. Because I edit under my own name (a choice so that it's clear when I do and do not have a COI, as many of my personal interests are linked to my professional ones), ] has been subject to various retaliatory attacks, and I have been subject to off-wiki targeting. I've faced not just legal threats, I've actually had a purported billionaire file a lawsuit against me. Some of this just rolls off, some of this has caused a lot of unhealthy stress. I've gotten through it with a ] and, up until now, to the best of my recollection, never requesting nor receiving an interaction ban.
			I didn't say it was a suggestion of self-harm that was likely to succeed, or to do any lasting damage, but it's just shocking to me that any comment anywhere near that harsh would be tolerated. Where would you draw the line in this genre of comments being acceptable? If someone had conducted a coordinated and possibly successful campaign to have someone slash their wrists, I would block them permanently without question. Having some detail exactly how I could suffocate myself would be unlikely to succeed given I'm not suicidal and they are clearly just angry at me. Having someone tell me to sit on a sharp stick is likely to be interpreted as an angry turn of phrase, not a serious suggestion, though following it could result in bleeding out. Having someone tell me to slap myself in the face is not going to result in serious harm, but in no event would I consider that civil. I would expect that ''any'' negative comment about me and my body or what I should do with it would be unacceptable in a civil work environment. Isn't that what Misplaced Pages is supposed to be? -- ] (]) 22:34, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
	But now the problems are coming from "inside the house". Now I have a powerful, experienced editor who has decided to make me their target. They did, of course, have ample chance in the discussion to say that they wouldn't target me, but of course they only used their involvement in the thread to make jokes, give the old-back-and-forth with their wiki-chums, because the matter of deliberately abusing a fellow editor was not something they were at all concerned about. (And yes, I'm perfectly aware that they are likely to see this message. I fully expect they are glorying in the idea that they may have gotten under my skin enough to make me quit.) A group of admins just decided that it's a-okay for them to be deliberating making the editing environment here acidic. If I continue to edit, I am volunteering to be their ongoing target -- and I see their name often enough to know that our editing realms overlap.
			:Are you really not aware of this common idiom? E.g. . It is vaguely related to an actual medical thing that can happen but that has nothing to do with self-harm . ] (]) 01:32, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	So it's all very nice for you to write a message to me that you hope this doesn't drive me off... but what have you actually done to make that happen? What have you actually said to your "wiki-friend"? --] (]) 16:22, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
			::Of course I'm aware of the expression and its social purpose in this context, which is to insult rather than having any expectation that the target would attempt to perform the requested action, any more than "go suck a bag of dicks" is a literal suggestion. That said, the insult uses the language of self-harm to convey its message. This is not acceptable on Misplaced Pages either in terms of being an insult or using this type of language. Similarly, using the expression "that's gay" to give a negative opinion about something is using homophobic language, even if the speaker means pretty much the same thing as "that's dumb". And bigoted language, regardless of whether or not there is a discriminatory intent, is even more uncivil and unacceptable than non-bigoted insult equivalents. -- ] (]) 02:23, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	: {{u|NatGertler}}, you brought up an instance where EEng referred to you by a term you didn't like. EEng was told not to continue. If they do then it is grounds for harassing and hounding. Drag them back to AN/I and provide the diffs where they do it and the community can see this is not just a one off between two editors that happened to disagree on something. There is no official interaction ban. We specifically shot down any BOOMERANG against you as trivial and unnecessary. If you decide not to interact then that is your decision. Personally, I would just go on editing as I normally would. If you cross paths again then edit as you normally would. There is no reason to let this stop you from editing. Does it benefit the encyclopedia to have you stop editing? I don't think so. Don't be antagonistic if you come across them but state your position plainly and back it up with reliable sources. You'll be fine. Your feelings are valid because you are valid. Just keep going. --]] 17:13, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
			:::This is all perfectly sensible except that "until you're blue in the face" has nothing at all to do with self-harm (literally or metaphorically), so that the value of the analogies crumbles completely. You got called childish, and then you went to ANI to complain that someone told you to off yourself -- amazing that this didn't work out. ] (]) 02:38, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	::''{{green|EEng was told not to continue.}}'' No, they were told that it was "probably best" if they didn't. No commands given. Dragging them back to ANI (not that they actually were "dragged" to ANI, they themselves saw no need to say anything of substance, and were only there for the larfs) would seem likely to have the same effect as taking the matter there in the first time -- he was, after all, warned by me that this could go to ANI, so being warned that it could go to ANI again would seem to have little impact. {{green|There is no reason to let this stop you from editing.}} I'm sorry you missed the part where the deliberate targeting of me and the group decision that my concerns are not just to be meaningful addressed but are to be derided are the source of stress, stress which can and does have genuine physical consequences. (In my field, at least ] has been attributed to a stroke that likely arose from stress over online arguments.) Yes, there are reasons for both happiness and health to discontinue my editing. My choosing to "just keep going" may well be the best thing for the Misplaced Pages, but given its current state, probably not the best thing for me. --] (]) 18:16, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
			::::I could believe "arguing until you are blue in the face" is unrelated to self-harm, but EEng told someone to "hold your breath until you turn blue", pretty clearly invoking (for the purpose of generating an insult) a situation in which the victim's tissues are deprived of oxygen. As the WebMD article points out, this can cause the person to lose consciousness and fall down. This can cause serious injury; someone in my family got dizzy and passed out once, and had to go to the emergency room because hitting their head on the way down caused them to temporarily lose their short- and long-term memory. In older people, this type of fall can also cause broken bones, which has also happened to one of my family members. -- ] (]) 03:05, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	::: {{u|NatGertler|Nat}}, since you love to quote what was said in the summary by the closer, I will make a few quotes myself, ''{{tq|@EEng: please stop calling Nat Gerler "pilgrim".}}'', ''{{tq|It obviously bothers Nat and it should be stopped"}}'', {{tq|EEng should stop calling Nat a pilgrim}}. That is three examples of EEng being directly requested or told they should stop or have stopped. Tryp came in and further chastised EEng by stating they shouldn't have said it and only made it worse by repeating it. In this case, it didn't rise to the level that the community felt was block worthy or even interaction ban worthy. That is not to say that, should it continue, it won't get there. If you decide to stop editing because someone goaded you into retirement then that's your choice. You are free to come or go as you choose. My suggestion to you was not just for the sake of the encyclopedia but also because your voice does matter. My position hasn't changed and wont change. I might be quirky, I definitely love to laugh and smile, but I am absolutely genuine and nothing I said to you was done haphazardly or dismissive of your feelings.--]] 19:30, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
			:::::{{tq|the victim}} lol ok bro. ] (]) 11:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::What word would you prefer to use to describe someone who is self-harming as a result of bullying directed at them? -- ] (]) 19:23, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::This conversation is as if I reached the conclusion (based on our exchanges so far, and your obvious unfamiliarity with English idiom) that you are actually a Portugese farmer, and then I made multiple posts of many hundreds of words based on this theory, and every single other person in those discussions pointed out that I was being ridiculous, and then I called you "senhor agricultor", and you were like "whatever, bro", and now I'm asking what name I'm possible supposed to call a guy who lives outside Lisbon and grows cork trees for a living. The correct answer would be something like "wtf is this surrealist absurdity?" ] (]) 22:09, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::I used the word "victim" to describe a person in a hypothetical circumstance, so it really need not have anything to do with real events. If you don't think the other editor in this conversation was being insulted or bullied, that's fine, I can agree to disagree. -- ] (]) 23:50, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::And no, EEng was not telling me to off myself; their comments were not directed at me. They were directed at a third editor, and I am embarrassed for Misplaced Pages that they had to put up with that. I reported it to WP:ANI because it's against our behavioral guidelines, and EEng is a chronic an ongoing offender. -- ] (]) 03:07, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			::BTW, that page on 24campfire.com is a pretty good example of things we ''don't'' tolerate on talk pages; I see posters calling people "leftard" and "douche", and one displaying a confederate flag. Misplaced Pages isn't a right-wing forum where people are encouraged to spout off vulgar opinions; it's a collaborative research project where civility is required. -- ] (]) 03:12, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			The meaning is well established and has nothing to do with self harm. Claiming that it is is an error at best and a serious false accusation at worst. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 02:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			:The point is that everyone interprets speech and language somewhat differently based on their background and culture. This is one reason why people in leadership positions can come off as milquetoast. They know that language is tricky so they try to use language that won't cause unintended problems. There's been many times where I've made jokes in a Misplaced Pages discussion only to be accused of making personal attacks (And I've made those, too). This kind of thing happens a lot. Not only do people have issues with reading comprehension that is tainted by our own experience, but even having face to face communication can be incredibly trying. I was just telling Tryptofish recently about a joke I made to a fellow Democrat about Biden and Trump forgoing the debate (which turned out terribly) and opting for a ] instead. I thought my joke was funny and terribly non-political, drawing on both the culture of ''Idiocracy'' and the viral trend of doing things for the likes. Well, my joke wasn't taken that way. Instead, I was accused of being a Trump supporter, and was told that I was encouraging people not to vote. ] (]) 02:49, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	:Hi Nat, and first of all, thank you for taking the time to come here and discuss it with me.
			::True, but that does not allow an accusation of intending a very bad unusual meaning. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 02:58, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	:You ask what I have done to tell {{u|EEng}} to show more courtesy to other editors, and that's a very fair question. And the truth is, that I have done so. Please let me direct your attention . You need to scroll down to my comment beginning with "EEng, I have a bunch of things to say." The first paragraph of my comment is joking about the dispute of ''that'' time, but I hope you will see what I said in part of the second paragraph: {{tq|In my experience, you are very frequently correct in your evaluations of editorial judgements here. But the fact that you are right and someone else is wrong does not entitle you to show off what a smarty-pants you are by making fun of them. It's really ugly. I mean it. Stop doing it. Bish wasn't wrong in terms of enacting consensus, but she was wrong in making it psychologically easier for you to figure that you were vindicated. She did you, personally, no favor. And you really, really need to get the message that you have every right to explain why you are correct about something, but no right to ridicule other editors who are wrong.}} So, yes, I've done that. And it wasn't the only time. I won't track down every time, but there is , where, if you go down to my comment starting "FWIW", you will see me agreeing with advice from an admin, that EEng should stop mocking other editors. And, once I finish writing my reply to you here, I'm going to do it yet another time, and I'll post a diff here.
			:::No doubt, but I think it explains it. AGF, I think Beland truly believes what they are saying, perhaps not realizing there are multiple interpretations, of which there is only one likely interpretation in a given context. This is the essence of the problem, and it's something I see play out again and again, not just here, but pretty much everywhere. A current example playing out in real time is the drag queen tableau at the Olympics. ], while art historians see it as ]. ] (]) 03:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	:If you look up near the top of my talk page here, and at the current version of my user page, you will see that I am very serious about my concerns over declining civility here, and that it has led me to quit for a significant amount of time before coming back to a lesser amount of editing activity. And I sympathize with your real-life difficulties. I wouldn't want anyone to have to go through that. At the same time, EEng is a, well, complicated person. He is unquestionably smart and makes a lot of positive contributions here, but he also has a lot of pride, an annoying tendency to be a smarty-pants, and a flawed sense of whether other people will or will not think what he writes is funny. (Yes, I expect him to see that I said that.) People can tell him to change, but he also is who he is. And "pilgrim" isn't even close to being the worst thing he has ever said, nor is it, objectively, a particularly nasty thing to say. The fact that it pressed your buttons does, however, make it something that he should have immediately stopped repeating (and I expect him to see me say that, too). I can respect whatever choice you make about editing here or not, but I hope that you will know, in any case, that I sincerely wish you well. --] (]) 20:58, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
	:As promised, the diff of what I said I would do: . --] (]) 21:17, 3 September 2021 (UTC)		::::And more importantly, in neither interpretation is this civil behavior appropriate for Misplaced Pages talk pages. -- ] (]) 03:08, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::The problem is that when you police and regulate speech like that, you are dealing with the same cultural influences, in this case subcultural, at work. For example, if I said to you, "Have you given any thought to ]?" in this discussion, you would probably shrug it off as meaningless. But that statement was considered a blockable offense (and equivalent to a personal attack) on a site like ]. So trying to come up with a universal code of conduct for speech is not as easy as you might think. Another way to think about this is how different countries, particularly the US, Canada, UK, and Europe, treat the depiction of sex and violence and how they regulate it. The cultural component here is huge. ] (]) 03:20, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	::Well said, Trypto. I find EEng very funny. Equally, as you've pointed out before, he's often a real ]. I meant no malice and I'm very sorry if Nat's feelings have been hurt. I know there's nothing worse than feeling belittled by gangs and cliques. Vast swathes of Misplaced Pages are so humourless that it's easy to get carried away with the slightest excuse for light-hearted<!-- it was actually light-heated with a pinch of roasted chilli, but never mind. Oh, that would be ]! --> ridicule. The entire scenario seemed to me (and still seems, I must admit) quite ridiculous. Perhaps Nat will forgive me for likening his predicament to a strong and punchy extra mature cheddar. ] (]) 21:37, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
			::::::Are you arguing that despite their long experience of editing and history of blocks and complaints at ANI, that EEng was under the impression, for cultural difference reasons, that this comment:
	:::Thank you for sharing me that older posted, Tryptofish. I recognize and respect your earnestness.
			::::::{{blockquote|See WP:IDHT. Why don't you hold your breath until you turn blue? That might convince people.}}
	:::Nonetheless, I am about to go post an "extended Wikibreak" notice on my talk page, holding off claiming absolute retirement for now. And then I will do something I've not done in many years, if ever: log out. We'll see if I choose to stay off (or even if I can. I mean, I have some strong will, but sometimes the commas are in the ''wrong damn place!'')
	:::May you do well by Misplaced Pages, and may it do well by you. --] (]) 22:10, 3 September 2021 (UTC)		::::::is friendly, civil, and appropriate for Misplaced Pages talk pages? -- ] (]) 03:37, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Yes. My reading of that out of context quote is not the same as yours. I see someone drawing a direct analogy between IDHT, or refusing to get the point, and the metaphor of holding one’s breath. In fact, if you read the IDHT page, it makes the analogy quite clear, and even shows an image of someone sticking their fingers in their ears and mouthing "I can’t hear you", which is the same as threatening to hold one’s breath in the comparison. "Believing that you have a valid point does not confer the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told otherwise." The site ] has a more complete explanation of the metaphor: "Threatening to hold one's breath until they get what they want is considered an idle threat primarily because it's a type of coercion that is unlikely to be effective and can be self-harming. This form of persuasion, much like some historical examples of political intimidation, is based on the fallacy of ], or an appeal to force. The ineffective nature of such threats is explained through human psychology and historical precedents. For example, as described by ], it is part of human nature to issue promises and threats without fully committing to carrying them out. Moreover, when a person threatens to hold their breath, the natural survival instincts of the human body will eventually override the conscious effort to avoid breathing, making this an ineffective strategy for getting what one wants." ] (]) 03:56, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	::::{{(:}} --] (]) 22:15, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
			::::::::OK, so given your explanation, I don't see how suggesting to an editor that they act like a child and engage in an ineffective, potentially self-harmful coercive technique to get their way could be anything other than an insult (unless it's meant as friendly teasing). Drowning out someone's speech with "la la la" and fingers in your ears does not carry a danger of self-harm, though it is also childish and unreasonable. Referring someone to ] bluntly is rude, and criticizes that editor personally rather than focusing on the actual disagreement or misunderstanding that is causing the author to not feel heard. Other editors did make progress clarifying the objections of GiantSnowman (which were not always clear) by using those techniques.
			::::::::Reading this quote '']'', EEng says in their own words they are "pissed" at GiantSnowman, and there's plenty of other angry context that makes clear this was an insult.
			::::::::EEng's comments read as hostile starting from the edit summary, which began: "this should be obvious but apparently it's not to everyone". To be fair, GiantSnowman started to be uncivil to a third editor: "unsure if you're trolling or having AI write your responses for you". EEng was clearly annoyed by this discussion, and started to use emotional tantrum phrases like "No, no, no." and "is an absolutely terrible idea". Then got even more unhelpfully hyperbolic - remember we're talking about whether day or month should go first, here: "The idea that we're going to debate the clear preference in English-language publications from the country is either a joke or part of a plot to destroy Misplaced Pages from the inside."
			::::::::As the conversation goes on, EEng starts swearing: "every goddam time they write an article". GiantSnowman called EEng's proposal "nonsense" in a not-vote. Then EEng tells GiantSnowman to hold their breath until they turn blue.
			::::::::Then, after GiantSnowman ''agrees that EEng's proposal has consensus'', instead of taking "yes" for an answer and quietly bringing this contentious thread to a close, EEng unleashes a torrent of angry comments with phrases like "butthurt", "quite obviously, my hand was already so upper that the Hubble telescope would be needed to see it". GiantSnowman requests "Stow the 'tude please." which prompts a completely gratuitous new subsection titled "'tude? You wanna see 'tude?" in which EEng rants for several paragraphs about GiantSnowman's past edits, saying "And now here you've wasted a dozen people's time with your mixed-up reading of MOS. No wonder I'm pissed off at you." (Another innocent editor previously disputed that EEng's reading of the MOS was "obvious".) Yet another editor had to declare the discussion closed to stop the ranting.
			::::::::I brought to AN/I what I thought were the most obvious examples of bad conduct for brevity, but picking through the thread like this has made me realize that this was not just a one-off inappropriate comment, but an extended uncivil flying off the handle. It doesn't seem like the editors who responded to the AN/I thread took the time to look at the context. I'm sad we never got to discuss just how bad this incivility got, because {{u|RickinBaltimore}} closed the AN/I thread before I had a chance to respond to others' comments. But thanks for your thoughtful consideration here. -- ] (]) 07:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			EEng is a big topic. I think that the more specific conversation is about saying that the comment was about self-harm and critiquing folks for saying otherwise. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 12:45, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			:Well, I stand by my assertion that the comment unacceptably uses the language of self-harm, even though I agree it can be (and probably was) used without actually intending that someone harm themselves or realizing the statement could be interpreted that way.
	== Failed pings ==
			:Putting any disagreement about self-harm aside, would you at least agree that EEng was being unacceptably uncivil during that conversation, especially at the end? -- ] (]) 20:16, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			Well, folks, I logged on this morning and had a notification that I had something like 28 new messages. Did I get nominated for Vice-President or something?
	Regarding , I saw that thread and was going to notify you here about those totally unjustified comments, but it slipped my mind. Sorry about that. Anyway, I noticed that the OP oddly linked to your talk page instead of your user page, and wondered if that was the reason why the ping didn't go through. ] (]) 21:32, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
	:Thanks for this message, and no worries! Yes, linking to my talk is the reason for the failed ping. At this point, water under the bridge. --] (]) 21:55, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
	:<small>And if anyone looks at that diff, please note that I subsequently corrected "SPI" to "SPA". lol. --] (]) 21:58, 3 September 2021 (UTC)</small>
			OK, let me get serious and reply to Beland. Beland, as you know, you and I have worked well together on other things, and I want to assure you that I have no ill-will towards you. I see that other editors have already pointed out (at great length) how "holding one's breath until one's face turns blue" is a turn of phrase that does not mean instructions for anoxia, but rather, means acting childishly to demand what one wants. I also see that you did not interpret it that way, and I think that you did so in good faith. So your concern was a good faith one. But the fact remains, nonetheless, that EEng used the phrase in the common meaning and multiple editors who commented at ANI understood it that way.
	== Edits to others' user pages ==
			EEng is indeed "a big topic". And maybe he can be faulted for peevishness in saying that to the other editor. He's had a long history of being blocked for things that he did wrong. He's also had a long history of being blocked for things that he ''didn't'' do wrong. And many editors, including me, are troubled by ANI complaints that seem to be "taking another swing" at editors who have been regarded as controversial. When you posted your ANI complaint, you didn't simply link to the "hold breath" diff, but you listed a wall of previous block history, in a way that came across as a request for a site-ban or indefinite block, and indeed you proposed a series of rapidly escalating sanctions. That might have been proportionate to a genuine threat of violence, but this wasn't a genuine threat of violence. That's why you got the reaction that you got. My advice is to try not to take it personally, but to learn from it. --] (]) 16:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	Due to your history of failing to AGF regarding my edits, I have reverted your edits to my userspace.
			:Well, being the Misplaced Pages user page with the largest number of admitted lurkers (like me) is right up there with being the VP candidate. :-) <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 19:42, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	I don't object to your idea per se, but rather I would prefer for there to be wider community input on it.
			::I'm guessing you're being facetious about that "largest number" (especially with the "admitted" qualifier), but you're not actually saying I have more ] than Jimbo, are you? --] (]) 21:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			:Thanks for the thoughtful reply. ] says, I think sensibly: "While a few minor incidents of incivility that no one complains about are not necessarily a concern, a continuing pattern of incivility is unacceptable." Given what has happened, I'm scratching my head a bit about how the second part could be usefully enforced. It seems to me that if anyone is ever to be sanctioned for a continuing pattern of incivility, a history of incivility would need to be established at AN/I. If presenting a long history of bad behavior is dismissed as a "wall" or "taking another swing" at an editor who has been previously punished, then it seems we have a ] where we can only sanction individual instances of egregiously bad behavior and never a chronic pattern of moderately bad and occasionally egregiously bad actions.
			:I expect opinions differ greatly on which blocks were deserved and whether they were too long or too short, which is why I noted which ones were shortened. And also why I presented all of them; no matter what you might think of any given block, it seems like there are still plenty of others that establish a chronic pattern of bad behavior. Would spending an enormous amount of time researching which blocks were the most controversial and dropping those have helped? Would it have helped to spend even more time pulling out actual quotes and linking to actual diffs?
			:It occurred to me, perhaps people who participate at AN/I are used to dealing with much worse behavior, and their level of tolerance is simply far higher than mine? That would imply no action will be taken in a chronic case like EEng until the next ''egregiously'' bad incivility. It also implies this problem would need to be dealt with in the meantime without the benefit of sanctions.
			:In many cases, reminding people to be civil and refocusing the conversation on the merits of a content dispute can get people to cool off and proceed to resolution. With some chronically uncivil people and EEng in particular, that sort of admonishment can just enrages them further, resulting in incivility directed at the person trying to cool off the conversation, and further "they deserve it" sort of abuse directed at editors involved in the content dispute. Previously I've been told that sort of reaction is not a site-blockable offense on its own, so the result seems to be that chronic incivility continues, and anyone who isn't willing to put up with sharp elbows just doesn't engage with certain discussions or articles or Misplaced Pages at all. Given it is now possible to block an individual editor from a specific page for a certain time, would it be appropriate to do so as a response to a moderately uncivil comment from a chronic offender? If so, is a warning required? Would that last until they say they are going to be civil and stop attacking the admin?
			:I'm genuinely curious what sort of solutions you would recommend. -- ] (]) 20:57, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			::Thanks for your interest in what I would suggest, and I'm going to disappoint you that I don't have a good solution.
			::In a way, you are right about what you said in the paragraph starting "It occurred to me...". It's true that admins (I'm not an admin, by the way), tend to sanction for ''really bad'' incivility, but not for "minor" incivility, whatever "minor" really means. In some ways, Misplaced Pages has never been good at handling the civility policy. Partly, that's because different editors perceive civility different ways, in good faith, so it's difficult to define a boundary between "OK" and "not OK". But it's also because everyone's merely human, and it doesn't seem right to block someone for "understandable" conduct (even if they have had a history of doing worse). There's also the issue of not wanting to block someone who was ]ed into incivility. There's a theory about some editors being ], which I don't believe. (I've lost count of how many times EEng has been called an unblockable, and yet he has a lengthy block log.) And in this case, what EEng actually said was no big deal. I chose my words above carefully when I said that "maybe" it was "peevishness"; it was certainly nothing more than that.
			::So what I'd recommend is to accept that the civility policy is never going to be enforced in a fully satisfactory way. Remember that other editors are real people. One thing that follows from that is that they will make mistakes and lose their cool from time to time. Another thing that follows from that is that, even if other editors hold themselves to a low bar for civility, we can still choose to ''try'' to hold ourselves to a higher standard in what we do. And if you see someone be incivil to someone else, think twice before going to ANI on behalf of the victim. In this case, GS did not choose to complain, so you didn't need to step in on his behalf. --] (]) 21:45, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			:::Well said. -- ] (]) 23:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
			== ANI closure ==
	Thank you, 20:25, 12 September 2021 (UTC) ]&nbsp;]
			The MfD and ANI have been closed:
	:Duly noted. As for wider community input, be careful what you wish for. --] (]) 20:27, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Valjean/Rumor#Closures_at_two_drama_boards
	== ANI ==
			I have left a comment about continued personal attacks here:
	] There is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.<!--Template:Discussion notice--><!--Template:ANI-notice--> ~] (she/they • ]) 21:01, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
	:We edit conflicted, and I started a similar thread just below yours. ]. --] (]) 21:06, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Red-tailed_hawk#ANI_closure
	== Fishy ==
			You really should activate your email. If you have one you would like to use, email it to me. -- ] (]) (PING me) 16:24, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	I know you probably get it a lot but just in case you don't, you are so amazing, my friend. --]] 16:03, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
	:Always nice to get the opportunity to say: +1 : ) - <b>]</b> 20:03, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
	::That's lovely! Thanks, both of you! --] (]) 20:39, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
			:I'm already aware that it has all been closed, because I've been following it closely. That's good, and I hope we can both start working on some constructive stuff now. As for the links you've given me to your continuing concerns about personal attacks and the like, my strong advice is to just drop all of that. And move on. No good will come of continuing to complain about it. Some editors are just hostile to you, and you cannot change that. But you can stay away from it.
	==You have been nominated==
			:As for email, I'm doing things that way on purpose, and I'm not going to change it for you. I never use email on Misplaced Pages, because I want to be extra careful about protecting my privacy. I've always done it this way. We can communicate onsite, especially at the draft talk page. --] (]) 16:31, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	]&nbsp;You are invited to join the discussion at ]. &#x0020;You have been nominated by ], with ], to be a region selector for North America (Canada, and the United States) for the ] selector committee. If you accept your nomination, please indicate it on the page. If you do not accept your nomination, please remove yourself from the list of potential selectors. Thanks in advance for your time regarding this nomination, and thanks for everything you have done so far on a Wikimedia project. ] (]) 21:59, 12 October 2021 (UTC)<!-- ] -->
			:: Fair enough. -- ] (]) (PING me) 16:41, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
	== A barnstar for you! (2)==		== Re: Unsubscribing ==
			Oh, great, now I can no longer read about the latest scripts on your talk page. Thanks a lot dude. I thought you were taking one for the team. Now I have to subscribe to it and have it take up half my talk page instead? You were performing a public service. ] (]) 00:26, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
	{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
			:Ha! I do the same thing, reading newsletters on other editors' talk pages. --] (]) 15:20, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
	|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
			::<small>Your comment triggered a ]. Many years ago, my friends and I used to inhabit a small cafe in the city, when ]s were very much a thing. People would buy newspapers from around the world and leave them on the tables for the next person. I will never forget sitting there, listening to fantastic music, eating too much food and drinking too much coffee, and most of all, staying warm as SF was really cold back then, and the condensation on the windows of the cafe would fog up the glass, giving the scene outside a hazy, colored light streaked swirl that resembled an oil painting. ] (]) 19:32, 2 August 2024 (UTC)</small>
	|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Civility Barnstar'''
			:<small>Actually, I had never subscribed in the first place. Someone just put me on the list. Maybe they used a script. --] (]) 15:37, 2 August 2024 (UTC)</small>
	|-
			::<small>It was your . You were interested in the script for some reason. ] (]) 19:12, 2 August 2024 (UTC)</small>
	|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | For your level-headed and diligent comments at ]. I specifically appreciate you recognizing that my proposal was done in good faith. ––] <span style="border-radius:7em;padding:1.75px 3.25px;background:#005bed;font-size:75%">]</span> 00:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
			:::Whaddya know? I didn't even remember doing that. Good research on your part. There must have been a long time between that, and when the newsletter started again. As for my watchlist, it probably needs a really powerful cleaning agent. And disinfectant. (I'm not quite myself today. I was supposed to have an airline flight this afternoon, but it was canceled, and I'm rescheduled for tomorrow. I feel, um, disrupted.) --] (]) 19:38, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
	|}
			::::Please. I doubt most people remember half the edits they made. If you knew how many times I searched for a topic on Google, found a search result that led me to Misplaced Pages, and then discovered a great article on the subject, only to wonder about the authorship, and then to find, to quite my embarrassment, that I was actually the one who wrote it, well, you would laugh. It's happened so many times that I don't even look anymore. ] (]) 19:46, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
	:Thanks, that is truly nice of you! I think that, even when editors disagree, we should recognize that we are acting with good intentions. --] (]) 19:04, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
			:::::I ''think'' I remember what I had for breakfast this morning. --] (]) 20:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
	::Awwww, it's true and this was a very nice and well deserved gesture by {{u|FormalDude}}. I never lose faith in the positives of humanity despite all the negatives we sometimes encounter. You both are fine examples of the former. --]] 19:38, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
			::::::I think I've told you this several times, but I like telling the story because it's so fascinating. NPR aired a segment a decade ago that interviewed several vetted memory savants. They were quite literally in tears because they ''couldn't'' forget what they ate for breakfast ''every day for the past 20 years''. The show was about the necessity and benefits of forgetting, and how much we needed to do it to have healthy and happy lives. It's also interesting to take this idea and put it into other contexts, such as the process of dealing with anger, forgiveness, grieving, etc. Forgetting is, in many ways, very important, although socially, we pretend it's a bad thing that makes us look feeble. It's not. ] (]) 20:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
	:::Group hug! --] (]) 19:41, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
			:::::::I forgot to mention, stay safe. I think I can intuit why your flight was cancelled. Stay on top of civil alerts. ] (]) 21:37, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
	:::: I do smell like fish for real, I've been hanging them in the smoke house today. --]] 19:47, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
	:::::That's OK! You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot smoke a fish, nor tune one. Actually, that's not true, and I ''love'' lox! --] (]) 19:50, 20 October 2021 (UTC)		::::::::I've decided not to ask you why, until I get there. --] (]) 21:45, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::No magic. Just look at a . :) ] (]) 21:54, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
	==] has been nominated for discussion==
			::::::::::Well, I'm back, uneventfully. You had me wondering, sounded like it might have been Gulag-related. As it turns out, the flight ''was'' cancelled because of weather, although it wasn't really located within the worst of what's on that map you linked to. --] (]) 22:12, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Glad you're okay. I had something weird happen to me when I last flew from JFK to HNL. It was an 11+ hour flight. I had a good seat, but when I stood up to get some air and walk around, I realized I couldn't move my shoulder to get my arm out of my jacket. I'm still dealing with that loss of mobility today. I'm hoping to see an orthopedist soon. Doctor Google says it's probably a torn rotator cuff, but there's something else going on. I noticed what looks like sarcopenia as well. FWIW, I've had problems with my left hand and forearm for as long as I can remember, so I wonder if it is some kind of underlying condtion related to arthritis as well. I had carpal tunnel syndrome back in 1997, and I was able to cope until around 2000, when I had to give up playing piano and guitar altogether. This is the first time I've ever had issues with my shoulder, but the fact that it's on the same side as the previous problems makes me wonder if there's a connection. ] (]) 23:19, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::I'm so sorry to hear that. It sounds quite unpleasant. Is the difficulty moving because it's painful to move it, or just resistant to motion? In any case, I do hope you see an orthopedist soon. --] (]) 21:22, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::: Viriditas, I noticed this thread and, as a retired PT, I'm intrigued. (When a health care professional says "Oh, that's interesting!", watch out. {{;)}} We have morbid senses of humor, and pathologies interest us.) I automatically think about possible ]. You say "loss of mobility". Do you mean weakness, stiffness, and/or pain? Did any weakness on the plane occur in connection with pain? A "torn rotator cuff" doesn't occur spontaneously without any provocation. It would be quite painful. Are there symptoms of neurological deficits like pain, weakness, loss of sensation, tingling, weakened or lost reflexes, etc.? I'm wondering if there could be some variation of a ] thing going on (just much higher up). Being stuck in one position for several hours can mean some nerves were compressed for so long that they lost their function. Sometimes there is recovery and sometimes not. I've seen this happen. The presentation and medical history often provide the diagnosis without any other investigation. -- ] (]) (PING me) 23:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::It's really not clear what precipitated the event, but I did sit down last February, close my eyes, and tried to recall what happened. Nothing came up at first, and then a few minutes later, a memory popped up into my head out of nowhere. It turns out that a month before my trip, I remember sitting parked in the driver's seat of my car and doing something really stupid. My keys had somehow slipped out of my pocket and fell into the floor of the passenger seat behind me. I recalled thinking to myself, "Hey, I wonder how flexible I am, can my left arm go behind the seat and reach back behind my body?" I used to be really flexible when I was younger, not quite a contortionist, but I remember watching those magician videos as a kid and reading about people like Houdini, and trying to fit into small spaces (like a cat, "if I fits, I sits"). Well, I'm no longer a kid, and I think I must have torn something when I did this. I didn't feel a thing until weeks later when I was flying at 30,000 feet. ] (]) 02:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::: Oh! I recognize that symptom. It's a memory issue that afflicts us older characters. {{;)}} -- ] (]) (PING me) 03:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
			== Arbitration case opened ==
	<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>''']''' has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the ] guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at ''']''' on the ] page.<!-- Template:Cfd-notify--> Thank you. ] ] 04:36, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
			You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at ]. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at ]. '''Please add your evidence by August 20, 2024, which is when the evidence phase closes.''' You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, ]. For a guide to the arbitration process, see ]. For the Arbitration Committee, <b>]]</b>&nbsp;(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;he/they) 00:49, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
			== RfA and stuff ==
	]
	]
			Hello Tryptofish. I have thought about coming here for a while now; there are two things which made me resolve to do so at last. One, my post directly above: If I can leave you a template message, I can surely take the time to write a manual message. And I really like the poetry of the (in this case, necessarily) robotic/bureaucratic message being followed by a more personal note. It is both a before/after – (hopefully) becoming more aware of others' emotions and less attached to the letter of particular rules – and a reminder that there is a balance I need to strike, too.
	==Unsigned==
	Hi, Le Poisson de Trypto. (Poisson sans boisson est poison!) . That's {{noping|Attic Salt}}. I thought of responding to them, but what I wanted to say would have been needlessly unkind for a retired user. ] &#124; ] 05:47, 22 October 2021 (UTC).
	:No problem! Generally, I'm the polar opposite of the compulsively gnomish type, but there's something about unsigned comments that makes me want to clarify who it was. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:39, 22 October 2021 (UTC)</span>
			My second reason: If you can ] about RfA and stuff, I can leave you a nice message, too.
	== “Why Are Our Brains Shrinking?” ==
	] of editing Misplaced Pages...<br><br><small>-- ]</small>]]
	was featured on Hacker News today, and I immediately thought back to our discussion about ] and the Idiocracy hypothesis. Do you have any comments about Robison’s essay? In yet another data point along this line of reasoning, have you read the studies about the reduction of cognitive function due to climate change (heat and air pollution)? ] (]) 22:43, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
	{{multiple image|perrow=1|total_width=150|image1=Prune.JPG|image2=Waterpipes.jpeg|caption1=]|caption2=Synaptic plum-ing. --Tryptofish}}
	:Interesting. First, my obligatory comedy routine, even though my friend Martin beat me to it, re: shrunken heads. But I certainly agree with him that my own brain has shrunk as a result of editing here. Or as a result of my being me, or something. Is Idiocracy a Misplaced Pages criticism website? Oh, and Republicans are definitely evolving dumber, probably from the microchips in their vaccines.
	:OK, now that I got that out of my system, down to the serious-ish answer. (See also: ], ], ], ], and ], keeping in mind that there have been long-time POV disputes with some of them.) I agree with some of the people she cites in her well-written essay, that smaller doesn't equate to dumber. (Size doesn't matter; it's what you do with it. Wink, wink.) As she notes, ] among many other mechanisms can lead to brains that are smaller in terms of ] volume, but more efficient functionally. (Just as newer computers become more powerful and smaller with each new iteration. Just squishier.) Whether there's anything to the idea that changing evolutionary pressures are selecting less strongly for intellect, I dunno. One could make a case that smarter people tend to have fewer children, but that's subjective. As for pollution, I'd want to know if the brain size trends differ between built-up and rural parts of the world. Lead in drinking water, for example, can certainly cause neuron loss, sadly. As for recent climate change, there hasn't been enough time for it to have affected human evolution at the level of brain structure. --] (]) 20:01, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
	::{{small|]? I've had my ], thank you. But few more thankless tasks than ]. ] (]) 21:18, 29 October 2021 (UTC)}}
	:::<small>I think rum and prune juice is the old person's cocktail. --] (]) 22:07, 29 October 2021 (UTC)</small>
	::::{{small|]. Sorry for bringing this whole neurological thread ]. ] (]) 22:51, 29 October 2021 (UTC)}}
			I have no hard feelings for my RfA, and I hope you do not, either. Some time we will have to work on an article together. Or something. It is hard to work on CfDs together, so I do not think we should do that.... ], people can butt heads and then move on to collaborate later.
	::Thanks for your reply. I just became aware of the ] page, which lists this nugget for October:
			I wrote ], containing my thoughts on the process, how I will strive to improve, and ]. I am curious if you have thoughts on my thoughts?
	:::''Researchers describe and substantiate the hypothesis that the recent decrease in brain size in the last 3,000 years has resulted from externalization of knowledge and group decision-making, partly via social systems of distributed cognition and sharing of information.''
			Anyhow. I am rambling at this point. I am just going to end here by saying I hope you are doing well :)
	::Am I correct in interpreting your above comments that you support the idea that "brain shrinkage parallels the expansion of collective intelligence in human societies"? Extrapolating further out in the future, does this also imply that we are losing our individuality and moving towards a hive mind-like form of consciousness? Indulge me, please. ] (]) 21:29, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
			Best, <b>]]</b>&nbsp;(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;he/they) 03:40, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
	:::No indulgence needed; I enjoy discussing these kinds of things. First of all, whoever thought that those two sources were ] for a summary of the year in science was... wrong.
	:::But about brain shrinkage, I'd be willing to go just far enough to say that it might parallel an increase in the efficiency of brain organization in individuals. In other words, as evolution and natural selection proceed over time, brains will tend to have fewer extraneous structural elements, and therefore might perhaps get smaller while also getting more efficient. But that's ''not'' the same as paralleling something happening to collective intelligence. If you gather some additional useful knowledge, that doesn't mean that I'm going to pass on a genetic change to make my descendants' brains more efficient.
	:::Let's imagine that, with the development of human society, some people learn to become really good at farming, and some others learn to become really good at editing Misplaced Pages. If, hypothetically, those roles were made strictly and comprehensively inherited in families, I could imagine that, over generations, the farmers would develop really specialized farmer brains that don't need to do anything else, and the Wikipedians would develop really specialized editor brains that would just sit on the couch in their mother's basement and not need to do anything else. (OK, bad example, problem with Wikipedians never having offspring, but you get the idea.) In theory, that could lead to smaller and smaller brains that are more and more specialized. But that's not reality, because humans don't do the same tasks as their ancestors, or even their parents. The child of a farmer could become an editor, and the child of an editor could become a farmer. Consequently, there will be little or no evolutionary pressure over generations for the brains to specialize in such particular ways. Collectively, we've probably got less use for brain circuitry that watches for mastodons, but more use for brain circuitry that can type on a phone using thumbs.
	:::As for hive-mind consciousness, I suppose a case can be made that crowdsourcing the writing of an encyclopedia is depending on a sort of collective summation of intelligence. But that's actually not a bunch of brains working together in some kind of coordination. It's a bunch of brains, each acting individually. There's this process of natural selection of which edits stick and which don't. But that process doesn't ''really'' result in all those brains coordinating their electrical activities. The dumbass POV-pusher who gets reverted is unlikely to get a more efficient brain as a result of the revert. I don't really know what I think about brains becoming more "hive"-like. I know that I find the thought distasteful and dystopian, at least in the science fiction form of a city full of brains that fire action potentials or theta waves in unison. But, with Facebook algorithms, who knows what will happen? --] (]) 21:15, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
	::::Can I have some fun for a moment? ], professor of evolutionary biology at Simon Fraser University, takes ]’s controversial idea of loosely characterizing humans as eusocial in his speculative article (2013). I was wondering if you had seen it, or if you think any of his ideas should be taken seriously. In an altogether different domain, you’re probably well aware of the psychological research both ] and ] cite in their popular books about how the Internet is changing our brains. Bottom line: what if we are evolving to become less human-like we were in the past and more insect-like in our behavioral future? And would this be truly all that surprising given that insects are the most evolutionary successful organisms on the planet? ] (]) 22:30, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
	:::::Since we're speaking of insects, and since {{u|KoA}} is an expert on them and I think he is watching here, I'll invite him (or anyone else watching, for that matter) to weigh in as well.
	:::::Well, as I see it, it certainly ''is'' speculative. And Crespi does note that humans/primates have the evolutionary pressures of large brains, unlike insects. As for insects being the most evolutionary successful organisms, one can also make a case for bacteria and fungii as being even more successful, which would present problems in terms of making such a brain-oriented argument. And evolutionary success could look very different after a catastrophic climate disruption. I actually have not been following any of those authors, but it occurs to me to point to ] in this regard. It's one thing to point to a fairly specific ] trait for such evolutionary similarities: an organism that looks very similar to another, venomous, species, to dissuade predators. But for humans and insects, the similarities are not so morphologically definable. Certainly, there are ways in which populations of people assign roles to individuals, and there are insect species that have workers, soldiers, and reproducers. But, similarly to what I said in my previous answer, insects will tend to be locked into their genetic roles for life (barring, for example, the death of the queen bee, and a new queen emerging), whereas humans can move fluidly from one work role to another. So where Crespi notes "extensive divisions of labor", the mechanisms of how those divisions arise are quite different. There are certainly ways in which humans share food and make decisions cooperatively. But it feels to me like the comparisons are as much metaphorical as scientifically literal: there are interesting ways in which insect behaviors ''look like'' things humans do, but it doesn't mean that the neurological mechanisms are comparable.
	:::::Is internet culture changing our brains? Are internet algorithms doing so? In terms of how humans act, it sure looks that way, and not in a good way. Will that be selected for in evolution? It's way too soon to know (barely one generation of gene selection). I could say, half-facetiously, that some people are turning into . Are people becoming more conformist? Maybe. Does that make the conformists more like ants in an ant hill? As a metaphor, OK (maybe like lemmings, too). Does it mean that our brains are evolving towards having less ] and more ]? I don't know, I kind of doubt it, and I hope not. --] (]) 23:12, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
	::::::E. O. Wilson is one of my favorites in terms of his sheer fondness for ants. I haven't read that particular one yet, but he has definitely been getting a little far "out there" in recent years that I attribute to a well-known elder scientist taking some (well-deserved) artistic license. I wouldn't say going off the deep end or anything like that, just more in the vein of colorful language, but I can't say his recent ideas are really taken extremely seriously. I'd say they are best treated as thought provoking for the more philosophical rather than hard science realm. ] (]) 03:47, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
	:::::::Now you tell me! I just invested all my cash in ] futures, since as we become more insect-like, people will naturally gravitate to living on ant farms. ] (]) 23:04, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
	::::::::Ah, yes! Such are the perils of ]. And ''do'' look at that page – the hatnote is priceless! --] (]) 23:09, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
	:::::::::I feel like that face is judging me. ] (]) 23:59, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
	::::::::::The insects' revenge! Just imagine being judged by . And for a different kind of judging, I followed some see also's and found ], quite a buggy story! --] (]) 00:11, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
	::::::::::<small>And, of course, '']''. --] (]) 00:18, 25 November 2021 (UTC)</small>
	:::::::::::That reminds me some interesting drama back then. ] & ] based on the last line of ]. ] (]) 00:28, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
	::::::::::::Yes, I remember that, too. Good times. Also, I thought of ] as an alternative to a ]. --] (]) 18:50, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
	:], one of the true giants. RIP. --] (]) 20:33, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
			:Thanks so much for this very kind message!
	== Boo! ==
			:As it happens, I read your debrief very soon after you posted somewhere that you had written it. I was struck by how much of what you chose to write about had grown out of my comments at the RfA, and I'll admit to being a little surprised at how much "impact" I had had. I guess something I can focus on is what you said about learning to do things by "reading the book". In a sense, we all do some of that (or at least we all should). But I've also found that I learn about the right way of doing things by interacting with other people, and coming to understand how other people react to the things that I did. I think that may be the important take-away message. (I've also written some related thoughts at ], above.) In an essay I wrote, at ], I said that editors generally, and admins in particular, should approach disputes by asking: "How can I de-escalate the dispute, rather than escalate it?" And I went on to say: "The goal, ultimately, is ''always'' to get everyone back to productive content work." Implicitly, I think that means that those things are consequences of ].
	<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:#000; background-color:#FFB924; border-width:2px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]]
			:I know from what you wrote in your debrief that you already understand those things, and intend to take them to heart in your admin work. That's good, and I wish you all the best! --] (]) 21:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
			::<p><small>You confused me for a second; you forgot the # at the beginning of "]" and instead linked to our mainspace article ]. Who knew that "Hello" only dates to 1826?</small></p>What you said had the most impact on my RfA, no doubt about it. I definitely learned the most from your comments out of anyone at RfA, and I try to let learning experiences have the necessary impact on me. I am glad I won't have to return to RfA as a candidate, but I do wish something like ] still existed. RfA is the one and only real opportunity you have to get direct feedback from many people on your actions (positive and negative) not worth a dramaboard complaint. Anyhow. Thank you for your thoughts, and I wish you all the best, too! <b>]]</b>&nbsp;(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;he/they) 22:01, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
			==Happy First Edit Day!==
			<!-- ##RW UNDERDATE## -->
			{{ombox
			| name = First Edit Day
			| image = ]
			| imageright = ]
			| style = border: 2px solid CornflowerBlue; background: linear-gradient(60deg, MistyRose, AntiqueWhite, Ivory, Honeydew, Azure, GhostWhite);
			| textstyle = padding: 0.75em; text-align:center;
			| plainlinks = yes
			| text = <big>'''Happy First Edit Day!'''</big><br />Hi Tryptofish! On behalf of the ], I'd like to wish you a very happy anniversary of the day you made and became a Wikipedian! ] (]) 04:21, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
			}}
			: I probably say it every year but I find it so cheeky we made our first edit on the same day, albeit 12 years apart. Congrats on 16 years as a Wikipedian. --]] 11:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
			::Thanks, both of you (and congrats to you too, ARoseWolf). Is it 16 years? Feels like 26! {{(:}} --] (]) 20:44, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
			== Email ==
	{{Center|'''''{{resize|187%|Happy ]!}}'''''}}
	----
	'''Hello {{{user|{{<includeonly>SUBST:</includeonly>BASEPAGENAME}}}}}:<br>Thanks for all of your contributions to improve Misplaced Pages, and have a happy and enjoyable ]!'''<br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; —usernamekiran • sign the ] • ] 21:33, 30 October 2021 (UTC)<br /><br /></div>
	{{clear}}
	:Thanks, boo! --] (]) 19:27, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
			I know you don't generally do email but if you drop me a line I have something you may find interesting. It's not related to anything currently ongoing on Misplaced Pages but also it's not something that can be communicated in public! ] (]) 14:03, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
	== Your sub-section, your choice ==
			:I really don't like to do that. It doesn't sound to me like this is very important, but if I'm wrong about that, please let me know. --] (]) 20:41, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
			:Unrelated, but thanks for getting the page protection at TCM. --] (]) 20:48, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
			::It's interesting more than important: material from a whistleblower from what turns out to have been a coordinated effort on a topic we were both involved with years ago (we'd no doubt have suspected this at the time anyway). I'm just keeping it on file to send to Arbcom should it flare up again, rather than bother them with anything that doesn't need immediate attention. ] (]) 04:42, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::OK, thanks. Yeah, I have no doubt that there have been such wrongdoings from the kinds of POV-pushers we both encounter. As you say, just keep it on file for future submission to ArbCom if ever needed. That's the right way to handle it, and I don't need to know the details at this time. Thanks for letting me know. --] (]) 20:39, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
			== Hydrocephalus, implications for consciousness ==
	I read it. It's a proposal for sure. But, since it's a sub-section that you started? I won't be getting into a needless edit-war with you, over it. ] (]) 16:27, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
	:I appreciate that you did it in good faith, but it was the third or fourth or something time that it happened in a matter of minutes, and I felt like enough is enough. In my opinion, although there are proposal aspects to it, it's not like the other proposals, and yes, I started that subsection. For those watching, it's about . --] (]) 16:32, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
	::May I suggest that you elaborate on the sub-heading? Just having the said-editor's name, creates a grey area feel to it. ] (]) 16:34, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
	:::Thanks. I'll think about it, but I'm feeling kind of pooped over the whole thing at this moment. --] (]) 16:38, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
	::::"]" ;) ] (]) 16:40, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
	:::::I'll ] remember that! {{(:}} --] (]) 16:42, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
			This old topic is getting some renewed attention on Reddit this week. Since this is your area of expertise (as a neuroscientist, not as someone with hydrocephalus) I would love to hear your thoughts. I think the writers of ''Westworld'' were aware of this case as they appear to have echoed the ideas of ] in several episodes. And yes, ''The Simpsons'' anticipated this when Homer had his head imaged. ] (]) 10:17, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
	==Short memory==
			::{{ec}} It's certainly a remarkable example of functional adaptability. My area of expertise (and I got a good laugh out of what you said there) leads me to make a picky distinction between functionality in general and consciousness in particular. As I mentioned above, in ], researchers are trying to figure out if there's a sort of "minimum amount of brain tissue" that can be capable of being "conscious", and for now, there's no answer to that. But the example you cite demonstrates clearly that the minimum is going to be smaller than 10% of a human brain. The man in this example has some impairments, but still can live a largely normal life. It's well-established that the central nervous system makes '''a lot''' of use of redundancy – and obviously there are significant evolutionary advantages to this (one can potentially recover from various forms of brain injury, instead of it being inevitably fatal). There's also the quasi-scientific cliché that people only think with some small percentage of our brains. So that study demonstrates that a smallish percentage of the human brain can be sufficient to provide "normal function", with the remaining neurons adapting to take on some of the roles of the neurons that were lost. "Consciousness" would be some fraction of that "normal function", because the study subject clearly appears to be as conscious as anyone else, but the study doesn't let us determine what fraction that would be.
	It helps to have a short memory when working on this project. The problem is diffs never let anyone forget. At ANI I had to refresh my memory about why you would be ruffled, and then I made myself re-read the dustup over the ARS template from 2 years ago. And reading that I also saw Dlthewave's edit warring over some random list I posted there, and etc. and on and on. I prefer not to remember these things - ever. Later I participated in many GEO AfDs with Dlthewave and even proposed Geo items for deletion that he ivoted on. However points contention arose when I had a different opinion about some GEO related subjects - we all know what happened next - no need for re-litigation. In ANI - editors like yourself and many others remember these points of friction and hurriedly dredge up the fractious diffs. FYI:I may petition so that I am allowed to only ivote delete in the future. Because nobody ever had a problem with my many delete ivotes even though they are decidedly less reasoned. <small>just kidding</small>
			::By the way, when I was in graduate school, one day we went to dissect the brain of a laboratory rat. The rat had been moving around it its cage and doing what looked like the normal behaviors a rat would display, nothing out of the ordinary. But when I opened up the skull, the cerebral cortex of that rat's brain was entirely missing. Just pretty much the brainstem. I was flabbergasted, enough that I remember it decades later, and I asked some more senior people in the lab to come over and check what had happened, whether I had made some sort of mistake. We decided that, in fact, this rat had been behaviorally normal, without a cerebral cortex. --] (]) 20:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::Do you think you could have won the Nobel if you pursued that line of thinking that arose from seeing the rat without the normal anatomy? ] (]) 21:14, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::In a word, no. {{(:}} It was a rarity, but not that unique. But as for documenting it and publishing a short paper on it, maybe that was a missed opportunity. A problem would have been documenting the normal behavioral repertoire. There had been no reason to collect that data before the dissection, and after, well, it was too late. --] (]) 22:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I think I recall reading something about a researcher genetically engineering animals without full anatomical structures. That was a while ago so I don’t know what became of it. ] (]) 22:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			:I think what I'm also asking is what kind of implications does this have for AI development? One of the themes in the show ''Westworld'' is that our "code" for consciousness is very small and simplistic but we like to think of it as complex because of our hubris. While that is just fiction, it does point at some kind of paradigmatic bias in our overall approach to understanding ourselves. What if consciousness really is something incredibly simple and inconsequential, as this aforementioned medical case seems to imply? What then? I often get into discussions (outside of Misplaced Pages) where I compare animal and human intelligence, and I have to tell you, people get incredibly angry and upset when this comes up. There's this kind of idea that we are special, that we are unique, that we are better than other animals, and I get the sense that this idea pervades our culture at every level. I was just thinking about this yesterday, while I was walking around this artificial, urban environment that we've managed to create in spite of the natural environment, land that has been buried under concrete and paved over, while never giving a single thought to all the other species who live here or for their welfare. I think it's obvious that any attempt to create AI (if that is even possible and not some kind of fantasy to begin with) will end in the same way, with humanity being paved over by our own creation. ] (]) 20:34, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			::Yeah, when relating AI to biological brains, one of the things that I keep coming up against is that biological brains ''have to'' do what they do, using cells and biological constituents. There's no way (yet) to take a shortcut, and put some silicon transistors and some binary code into some part of the brain. A newly made human brain, as in a newborn baby, is a lot less computationally complete than a brain that is ten, or fifty, years older. And that would be a very inconvenient time course for someone constructing a computer that can do strong AI in time for the venture capitalists to be satisfied. I'm going to disagree with you about the case above demonstrating that consciousness is something simple that can be accomplished by something very small. Even with approx. 90% of his brain tissue gone, what remains is an incredibly large quantity of neurons and synapses. That's still an extremely complex biological system. --] (]) 20:53, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::The AI proponents reject ] and argue that consciousness is probably substrate-independent and that sentience is just a matter of degree. I've often wondered if we learned to have the feeling of consciousness as we grew up and if these ideas of feeling consciousness are just ideas that could be implanted in non-biological systems. For example, most people go through their lives with thoughts, ideas, and beliefs in their heads that came from somewhere else, but at the end of the day, we like to pretend or call our own. Couldn't consciousness be a similar kind of idea? We think we are conscious, but isn't this just another story we learned from others that we tell ourselves? ] (]) 21:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::There's a ton of fascinating philosophical issues in there. I'm not arguing for carbon chauvinism, by the way. It's entirely possible that ''in silico'' can do some things better – and certainly doesn't need to spend as much time being trained. We use the word "consciousness" as though we know what it means, but we really don't. Is your brain conscious when you sleep, when you dream, when you daydream but aren't paying attention to something near you? Depends on how you define the word. One can program a machine to mimic any particular manifestation of consciousness, but if you ask it if it is conscious, can you trust its reply? I'm taking it on faith that ''you'' are conscious, because my past experience tells me it seems to make sense to assume that other people I interact with have the same consciousness I think I have, but I don't know it for a fact. --] (]) 22:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I’ve spent a lot of time playing around with chat bots and the like, as well as interacting with different kinds of animals. I think what I mean by consciousness is being able to go beyond our programming (cultural, innate, whatever) and to recognize ourselves as self-aware in relation to the larger world. I can ask my cat to try a bit of broccoli and give me their opinion, but it can’t do that for some reason. Which is odd, because it can do a hell of a lot of things that I can’t, like catch a bird flying in mid-air. So maybe consciousness is related to tasks, I don’t know. ] (]) 23:05, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::A lot of thought about this centers on awareness of self. I have a definite sense that I am a conscious self. But how does one ask someone else if they have the same sense, and if they reply yes, how does one verify that it's really the same? If a plant turns towards the light, that's a task, but it's unlikely to be conscious. If your cat eats the broccoli, you might be able to observe its body language and infer its opinion of the taste. Cats and other mammals appear to have a lot more consciousness than the phototropic plant does, but we keep coming back to the issue of how we choose to define the word. --] (]) 23:15, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Yeah, I know. Maybe we just can’t escape the rigidity of primate consciousness. There’s a powerful scene in the film '']'' where Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin are getting ready to land on the Moon in 1969. There’s a quick succession of frames showing their faces in almost '']'', framed and entangled by the darkness and sheer terror of space while the moonlight reflecting from the lunar surface lights up slivers of their faces, mostly just their eyes, giving the distinct appearance of ape-like faces, not human, peering out of a dark primeval forest, except this is the metallic compartment of the Lunar Module ''Eagle'', not ancient Africa. This scene likely went unnoticed by most people but it really stuck with me, and it may have been a subtle homage to ''2001'' to boot. My point is that when we are truly faced with the unknown, we seem to revert back to our original programming, likely because we are unable to escape from it. ] (]) 23:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::I should note, this is a major subplot in ''Westworld'' that is used to show how an AI system and human brain might be indistinguishable. In the story, the humans think they are special and unique and better than the AI, but the AI show that human thought processes are simple and rudimentary, while the AI surpass them by being able to network and upload their minds for saving and restoration in case something happens to their bodies. The humans think they are conscious and have free choice, but the AI explain how that’s basically an illusion of limited choices, feedback loops, and predictability. ] (]) 22:52, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			== Your remark at Arca ==
	I am sure you are a good guy, and I was about to post an apology on ANI about the friction over the ARS template after my memory was refreshed, but then I saw you mixing it up with DF - and going after him. I decided not to say anything because it seemed any post from me drew negativity or suspicion. ]. Next I saw your support for my ouster with a rationale that made my jaw drop. It was quite literally a ] in that place. One Arbcom member said he watched with baited breath. I am probably not ever going to post any article on ARS again. I have only been involved for about two years, and yet I bear the brunt for 12 years of bad feelings. If I had a long memory I would be unable to continue after the terrible things which have been said.
			as a disenchanting experience, and it is implied older editors like myself are to blame. Several say the problem is that a group of editors (me, nableezy etc) bludgeon.
	I am enjoying my time away from AfD. I spent way to many hours deletion sorting every day and night. And I spent many hours working on deletion related articles, or tied up in questions about rationales. Have a look at the discussion for Big John dinosaur: I saw an argument in that AfD over the size of the specimen, so I spent 4 hours gathering newspaper articles about the size of the specimen going back to 1892. Turns out nobody cared. So I now have that time for other encyclopedic endeavors. And I wish everyone luck in getting along - my own opinion is that ANI is not a community - it is a horror show with almost no rules, and a terrible way to treat volunteers. With time I will erase these hateful things from my memory. My best. ] (]) 20:59, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
			Well here is an analysis of , where you and Andrevan, sharing almost identical views argued your case
	:Hi Lightburst. Thank you for coming here to discuss it with me, and for writing this thoughtful explanation of your views. For those watching, the prompt for this message was that I saw Lightburst post some comments at ARS, and gave him some (hopefully) friendly advice that he might be (unintentionally) violating his topic ban.
			*Tryptofish edits 60
	:About me supposedly "going after" that other editor, here is the (recent memory) diff of what I first posted at ANI, expecting it to be my only comment about it: . My talk page watchers can decide for themselves whether or not I was "going after" anyone. Then, in response, the other editor to whom Lightburst refers replied to that comment of mine, personalizing it about me, dredging up diffs from the past, misrepresenting them, and making personal attacks on me. And yes, I replied to that ().
			*Andrevan edits 59
	:Anyway, Lightburst, that's good that you are finding ways to enjoy your editing away from deletion discussions. That's always a good thing to be able to do, after all. I disagree with a lot of what you say in your comment here, but I don't want to dwell on that unless you want me to explain further. I do think that you need to be careful that you ''really'' understand what you are restricted from, and that you need to avoid seeing ARS, and those with concerns about it, as ]. --] (]) 17:45, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
			*Nishidani 27
	::Gosh, I'd strongly advise against ever putting your in the water... Wikipeida can be a ]. But glad to see I'm not the only one with a ]. ] (]) 23:19, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
			*Levivich 20
	:::right? I always even after they have been unkind. Some kind of character flaw I have. Some people I hang onto the hate and bear grudges. I give it three tries, like I did in that diff I sent. And Tryptofish, I am not some kind of AfD nut. I found that I enjoyed the pressure of improving the article with a time limit. I already wrote an article yesterday: ], and in the past month about 30 articles. See you guys around on the project. ] (]) 02:30, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
			etc. The totally of edits by both of you exceeds the comments of several other partecipants.
	::::I should know better than to post on your page or respond to you in any way. It will not happen again. You can stay off my talk page from now on and I will do the same. Happy editing. ] (]) 19:28, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
	:::::This was about: . So it goes. --] (]) 19:49, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
			Idon't think you were tagteaming, and since I think talk page discussions should run their natural course, tolerate longueurs but by the sloppy criteria being splashed all round that ARCA page, you are a tagteamer and bludgeon, a view and an interpretation I do not share. ] (]) 22:08, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
	== Thanks ==
			:It looks like ArbCom is going to accept a full case, and you will have the opportunity to present your evidence there. I'm not interested in arguing about it here. My comments at ARCA were not about bludgeoning and tag teaming. --] (]) 22:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			::I have no intention of accepting an invitation to join what I consider a farce. I appreciate your indirectly citing my position correctly, that Jewish/Israeli/diaspora scholarship is the most reliable guide to the conflict. That is a position I have insisted on for a decade, hoping other editors absorb it. You mention ] as if someone like myself believed in the truth of that scholarship and was muscling this in in a behaviourally aggressive manner (try to seed that suspicion to anyone who works as a lecturer in academe and has to interpret cutting edge scholarship so that his students can themselves master a subject). It is not a matter of belief. Scholarship doesn't give anyone the truth: it succeeds where it shows that less empirically grounded stories are shaky, and gives us a narrative that, provisorily, is superior in terms of explaining any historical question. It is simply a matter of writing articles according to the best available scholarship, even if one may entertain personal doubts about some of it. Why? Because it is infinitely more sober, objective and analytical, data-rich, than the newspaper memes and nationalistic fairy tales touted by what you identify as the other camp. And note, rampant sockpuppetry is almost the exclusive practice of that nationalistic camp. You have a scientific background. I would have expected you to have grasped that.] (]) 23:09, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::I can grasp that I said that I'm not interested in arguing about it here. --] (]) 23:42, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
			== Dear sir and/or madam ==
	Thanks for fixing that on my talk page. I'm on very sporadically now so I don't catch things but that would have annoyed me as well. You are very free to make MOS alterations to my talk page. I respect you and you have earned my trust. I will probably rethink the layout when I fully return or if I get in that mood to do so before. I have to get my mind in the right frame for the long winter though so I will be on less and less over the next few days and weeks. --]] 15:15, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
	:You are, of course, very welcome, and I was happy to do it. Have a great winter! --] (]) 16:02, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
			Are you interested in another Hopper DYK? ] (]) 23:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
	== Would you be willing to launch the RfC? ==
			:OK. I'm guessing it's '']''. --] (]) 21:24, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
			::Great! I’ll do a major expansion later tonight. You’re free to do whatever you want, of course. ] (]) 00:35, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
			::Lots to do! The tension between Hopper and his critics is fascinating, with Hopper denying every attempt to describe him as an abstract artist or surrealist. I believe this is where the famous "You kill me" quote comes from, when a critic compared Mondrian with Hopper’s ''Rooms by the Sea''. Also need to add he began it in Truro in September during a bout of artist’s block and finished in October. He famously described it as his "jumping off place". His wife was pretty critical of it! ] (]) 00:46, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::One hypothesis that I have is that Hopper was so opposed to the association because at the time, many of the people associated with abstract art and surrealism were communists or fellow travelers. Just an insight I have with no evidence, but it makes sense given Hopper was a conservative. Also, I’m ignoring abstract expressionism for obvious reasons. ] (]) 01:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::As a whimsical idea: DYK... that ] sold some ''']''' to a New York art gallery? --] (]) 21:50, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Love it! You have a talent for this. Apologies for the delay, but there's so much information on this one painting, I'm experiencing a bit of information overload. I've spent the last few hours collating. ] (]) 22:03, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I think it's best if I start small, that always seems to help when I feel overwhelmed. I will focus on the provenance section for the next hour. ] (]) 22:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::No worries. I'm going to log out now, and I'll give it some attention tomorrow. --] (]) 22:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Just added the provenance section ''in toto''. I've got a bit more time to start another section, so we will see what happens. I hope to have a third section added by tonight, and a fourth by tomorrow morning. ] (]) 23:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::If all goes according to plan, maybe we could submit the hook sometime Thursday? ] (]) 23:07, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Just added a background, description, and exhibition section. I'm signing out now, but I may return much later if I have the energy. ] (]) 02:34, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::I've done what I could think of, and I think it looks good. --] (]) 20:44, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::The doctor is in, Charlie Brown! ] (]) 22:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Let me know if you have any other hooks. I will try to submit tomorrow morning. I think it's best to present multiple hooks, so if you can, please come up with a few others. Otherwise, I will just submit the one up above, and maybe one of my own if you don't have a few more. ] (]) 00:48, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::Offhand, that's all I've got. If the reviewer doesn't like a given hook, it's always OK to add more options as needed. I'm going to leave the kewpy-que to you. (I'm always happy to be hired as a hooker!) --] (]) 20:19, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::I will be taking you up on that for the next year. ] (]) 01:43, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::OK, I'm done copyediting. --] (]) 21:48, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::That's too bad, as I would encourage you to continue copyediting like you were. I just didn't like the image placement. Other than that, please keep going! I already have a stack of unused QPQs, so that's already done. ] (]) 22:23, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::Oh, sorry, that's not the way I meant it. I just meant literally, that there's nothing more I can think of. Like I'm done, and you don't have to wait for me to do anything more. --] (]) 22:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::Ok, so if I submit the DYK right now, the first thing the reviewer is going to say is "where do I find it in the article"? There's two places that I see that could partially support it right now, but I'm not against making additional changes. ] (]) 22:28, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::I will submit it now if you don't have other changes for the hook or the article. Or if you do, consider making them after the DYK, when it will give you additional opportunities for more hooks. ] (]) 22:29, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::Yes, feel free to go ahead; that's pretty much what I meant by my clumsy remark above. I see the same two places related to the hook, and they both make sense. But I don't have access to the full source material. My advice is to follow the hook by as many source citations as can support it, perhaps from both places on the page, and include in small font some quotes from the sources that support it (as I did ]). The sources you cite will determine the "where" to find it. And if the source material isn't quite consistent with the hook I wrote, the language of the hook could be adjusted slightly. --] (]) 22:41, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::Yeah, I don't write hooks that way, I tend to follow ]. So I will add your hook and see how it goes. ] (]) 22:47, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::Done. ] (]) 23:04, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::]: looks good! --] (]) 23:47, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::{{ping|Viriditas}} I just noticed that the source quotes at the DYK nom sound like quotes ''from the page'', but they should be quotes ''from the sources''. --] (]) 18:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::Yeah, I did that on purpose. Happy to reverse it. ] (]) 19:47, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::::Done. ] (]) 19:59, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::Regarding the small expansion: "Hopper sent the finished painting to Frank Rehn". That's a safe assumption, but none of the sources give us that information. ] (]) 20:01, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::I should note that such information ''might'' appear elsewhere, particularly in places I haven't yet looked. For example, there's a cited source that includes discussion of the original note written by Jo that I have not yet checked. It's very well possible that it says "the note was sent along with the painting that was delivered to Rehn". But we don't have that in the article yet, do we? ] (]) 20:31, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::One of them is called ''Edward Hopper: A Journal of His Work'' (1995) by Deborah Lyons. Seems very hard to get a hold of online. ] (]) 20:37, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::Only available in brick and mortar libraries. ] (]) 20:39, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::You willing to make the trip to a library? ] (]) 20:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::::About the quotes for DYK, that's much better, thanks. About the small expansion, I just tweaked it so as to not imply that the painting and the letter were sent simultaneously (although that may be gilding the lily). As for whether there's any OR in saying that Hopper sent the painting to Rehn, I really don't think so. We know from the sources that Rehn was the first holder of the painting after Hopper was finished with it. Either Hopper sent it (very likely), or Jo (or someone else) sent it on his behalf (possible, but effectively the same thing), or it traveled to Rehn magically. I honestly don't think it's an issue. About me going to a library, sorry, I just don't have time. --] (]) 20:59, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::::Given Hopper's Greenwich Village studio, it seems likely that he finished the painting in Truro and then delivered it to Rehn. It wouldn't make sense for Rehn to come and get it when the Hopper's go back to NY after their Truro summer vacation every year. However, I do have concerns about going beyond the sources, so I will continue to look for additional supporting material. ] (]) 21:09, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::::::I don't feel strongly about "sent" in "Hopper sent the finished painting". But I think that "sent" can encompass "delivered" or "handed to", in this context. --] (]) 21:15, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::::::But we still don't have the source for how the painting got from Truro to the New York dealer. I mean, I think it's obvious that Hopper delivered and drove it to Rehn himself (he didn't like it when Jo drove, and this was a major source of friction between them). But I also like to stick as closely to the sources as possible. ] (]) 21:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::::::::At this point, I don't even think it matters. The hook is probably fine, I don't see anything wrong with it. ] (]) 21:45, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::::::::{{like}}. I agree. --] (]) 21:56, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Don't get mad at me. ] (]) 22:41, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Ha! No problem. (Why you, why you..... !) --] (]) 00:09, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
			:(And I just learned from your talk page what a ] is. --] (]) 21:32, 26 August 2024 (UTC))
			::Rest assured, you wrote a great hook. It’s unfortunate, but there are people who might not see that. It kind of reminds me of all the criticism about '']'' from 2021, one of the greatest films of the pandemic era. At the time, conservatives and technologists on the right were apoplectic about the movie, and couldn’t figure out how anyone could like or appreciate it, seeing as they were directly pilloried by analogy. At one point, when the film was receiving accolades around the world, these people all bandied together to flood the Internet with bad reviews, claiming it was one of the worst films ever made. Sometimes people are just wrong and there’s nothing you can do about it. I just wanted you to know that I see you and recognize your brilliance. ] (]) 03:21, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
			:::First of all, welcome back (belatedly) after your vacation. I was a little worried that EEng's edits had caused some friction, but I think the page ended up in very good shape.
			:::That's incredibly kind of you to say those things (blush). And of course the page would not have existed at all without you. As for the hook, yeah, humor is a very iffy thing on Misplaced Pages. And I'm perfectly content with the ALT hook that got accepted. Whatever. Now if only someone would get around to promoting it to a prep and queue. I also agree with you about ''Don't Look Up'', a film that I admired a lot. --] (]) 21:33, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
			::::The next to last scene at the end, where they all settled their differences and held hands, waiting for the end of the world, touched me in a way that no other film has in recent years. It was such a beautiful film. ] (]) 21:47, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I have to admit that I liked where the tech bro got eaten! --] (]) 21:49, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Just deserts, quite literally. We can't build a single, sustainable contained biosphere on Earth, but Musk is all systems go on a Mars colony. It's insanity. ] (]) 21:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::It will end up being ], I hope. --] (]) 21:53, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::] just showed up on my watchlist. Draw your own conclusions. --] (]) 21:58, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::And what's even crazier, ] didn't win an award for his performance. That's upsetting to me. He made the whole film worthwhile and made me laugh so much. I demand an award for him! ] (]) 21:55, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
			:::::{{tq|if only someone would get around to promoting it to a prep and queue}}
			::::There are a few reasons why it hasn't been promoted, I think, but I would rather not muddy the waters with my unbridled speculation. It would help if you could leave a brief note at ] asking for fresh eyes to take a look. I've seen this kind of thing happen before, so there may be a reason. ] (]) 22:10, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I agree with you about the process, but I'm not going to do anything right now (but I have no objection if you do). I'm going to the neuroscience meeting soon, so my time for things here is about to go down a lot for a while. --] (]) 22:13, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Have a good time! ] (]) 22:17, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
			::::DYK just featured the following hook in the primary, top spot: "Did you know... that Punam Krishan (pictured) was raised on curry and Irn-Bru?" I completely fail to see how this is in any way different from your initial proposed hook. We all know Krishan wasn't raised on curry and Irn-Bru, just as we know Hopper didn't sell a beachfront property. ] (]) 01:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I've long since adjusted to Misplaced Pages being the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, including people who are humor-challenged, and worse. And I've had work of mine, in real life, that I cared about far more than this, get pissed on. So, I'm not bothered by how this came out. And I hope you aren't, either. '']'' is a fine new article, that we can both take pride in. --] (]) 22:45, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I just became aware of ], and I want to make sure you are abreast of it. --] (]) 23:16, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Thank you for the utterly preposterous link. I could milk the idea until it runs dry, but I would prefer to just latch on and wait for others to comment. I will not be cowed into participating. ] (]) 23:32, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I assume you meant udderly preposterous. Sorry if I'm acting like a boob. --] (]) 23:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Note the use of double Ts, not double Ds. What would your alma mater think? ] (]) 23:41, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
			== Proposed decision in the ''Historical elections'' case posted ==
	Hi Tryptofish,
			Hi Tryptofish, in the open ] arbitration case, in which you offered a statement, a ]. If you have comments on the proposed decision, they may be brought to the attention of the committee on the ]. ]&nbsp;] 14:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
	I appreciate you being a voice of reason and neutrality over at the ArbCom talk page. Reading your latest comment about the possibility of a new RfC, it occurred to me that perhaps the best option would be for you to launch it yourself. Given that recent attempts by Ferahgo and Gardenofaleph to do just that haven't met with success, and since you seem to have a much more comprehensive understanding of what makes a consensus solid than any of us who are parties to the dispute, it seems that this is likely the best (and perhaps only) way for your suggestion to really proceed as you've outlined it. Thoughts? ] (]) 18:59, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
	:Thanks for asking. (For talk page watchers, it's about ; scroll down to where you see me in the discussion.) I'm more than happy to give advice, and I was motivated to give advice here, partly because my wiki-friend MPants was dedicated to the subject but has stepped back from editing en-wiki, plus I have a lot of respect for DGG. But, myself, I'm trying to stay away from too much involvement in contentious stuff (see my user page). So I really don't want to play a primary role in constructing or launching the RfC, sorry. I'll certainly give an opinion in it after it launches. Beyond that, I'm willing to respond to questions and give advice during the construction phase, so it's fine to ask me what to do on a particular issue that comes up. But I'd rather not put myself out there as the person in front. If you want to see what a super-sized version of such an RfC looks like – way more than what you need here! – I'll toot my own horn by pointing to ] (the consensus from that has lasted years!). Perhaps it will give you some ideas. --] (]) 19:14, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
	::Understood! Thanks for the thoughtful response. To be clear, I don't think {{u|NightHeron}} or I or any of the other consensus defenders can launch it either. As you can probably tell from the tone of the conversation over at ArbCom, it's unlikely that any RfC we launch will be accepted as legitimate by opponents of the consensus no matter how many best practices we follow. This will be up to either those opponents or else an uninvolved editor who's willing to step up to do –– and I imagine that the process would be much healthier for the project if it were the latter. In any case, I appreciate where you're coming from here and I thank you again for your suggestions. ] (]) 19:26, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
	:::Maybe ask DGG? (You can point him to here.) --] (]) 19:33, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
	::::It seems that DGG is against the idea of a new RfC too . In any case I really would prefer to see this done by someone without a stated allegiance to either side. Regarding ''bickering'', it's a difficult situation to see allegations being flung around so casually, without evidence, on such a high profile forum without responding. With the recent descent into outright conspiracy theory by at least one opponent of the consensus , I'd suggest that NightHeron should be forgiven for responding at length. But I am, of course, involved in the content dispute myself, so perhaps I'm not seeing things as an outside observer might. Any further advice you might have to give about how best to handle things would be most welcome. ] (]) 16:37, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
	:::::Again, thanks for asking. I was actually thinking of saying the following a few days ago, but now I definitely think it applies even more. There's no rush for an RfC. I proposed it on the basis that it's (obviously) preferable to the (insert facepalm) that is going on now. But if a lot of the most interested parties don't want to do it now, then there's no urgent need. After all, without a change in consensus, the ''status quo'' remains in effect. If others want instead to carefully research sources, that's fine. If anyone wants to continue sniping, just stay out of it. I've come to think that, although the ''ideal'' RfC would be drafted collaboratively by both "sides" together, it's better to let the people who disapprove of what they see as the current consensus draft it when they are ready, and therefore to "own" the RfC that results. The more they procrastinate, the more one can say "let's settle this with an RfC". For you and I, as a hypothetical example, to go forward with an RfC now, would be wasted effort. If others want things to change, then let them do the initial work. --] (]) 19:54, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
	::::::That makes a lot of sense. I very much appreciate hearing your perspective. ] (]) 20:31, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
			== RFA2024 update: Discussion-only period now open for review ==
	== Rigged election! Rigged election! ==
			Hi there! The trial of the <strong>RfA discussion-only period</strong> passed at ] has concluded, and after open discussion, the RfC is now considering whether to retain, modify, or discontinue it. You are invited to participate at ''']'''. Cheers, and happy editing! ] (]) 09:38, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
	Well, no.
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	But ]. Vote early and often. --] (]) 23:18, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
			I'm going to be away from Misplaced Pages October 4–10 while attending the ] meeting in Chicago. I'll respond to stuff here when I get back. --] (]) 15:20, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
			:Looking forward to your return and any updates on the recent breakthrough which led to the mapping of the fruit fly connectome and how it can hopefully improve my life soon. :-) ] (]) 20:55, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
	== ArbCom 2021 Elections voter message ==
			:Dear Trypto. I read about that poor fruit-fly, ] for the good of humanity, and naturally I thought ]. Bless you. ] (]) 21:06, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
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			::Hey ]s, I'm back. Seems like I've got a lot to get caught back up on, on my watchlist, but I'll post my yearly debrief when I get to it. --] (]) 22:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
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			:::Did they discuss anything related to the fringe (literally straight out of ] lab), emerging technology of and two-way communication? ''New Scientist'' gave it lip service as future tech back in July. ] (]) 02:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::It's a huge meeting, so if anyone did, it wasn't in what I attended. I'll get around to posting what I found interesting, when I get around to it. --] (]) 22:16, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
			:Well, it's taken me long enough, but I've finally broken away from the firehose of blech coming over my watchlist, and I'm going to reply about what I learned at the meeting. Caveat: everything is preliminary reports of findings, frequently not yet even peer-reviewed, and so it's all entirely what WP calls primary sources, viewed through my personal opinions.
			:There were things that were of a specialized, technical nature, that were of interest to me personally, but if I focus here on things that would be of more general interest, one point that stood out was that there is increasing evidence that the idea that specific brain regions have specific functions is just not holding up at all. Stuff like one part of the brain is responsible for memory, another for pleasure, and another for fear. Those brain regions do, indeed, play roles in those things, but all of these complex functions actually involve multiple brain regions simultaneously interacting with one another, and a single brain region that is involved in one kind of function is also involved in many other kinds of functions. Another trend I noticed is that there are increasingly significant differences between how male and female brains (in humans and in other animals) process various kinds of inputs, with some specific brain circuits actually going in opposite ways. (To anticipate a possible question, I didn't see anything in that regard for non-binary humans.)
			:But I think the most memorable information that would be of general interest definitely was about "brain implants", along with implants in other parts of the nervous system, as a way of providing medical treatment. Things like electrical devices that can be implanted, usually surgically, in the body. This kind of thing has been going on for quite a few years, and I had been regarding it as still pretty early in the experimental process. But in the past year, scientists and doctors working on it have figured out a lot, from trial and error, about what does or does not work. And it's really starting to work. I saw results in individual people that were '''spectacular'''. A person who could not stand up on his own, and was needing to use a wheelchair, now able to go jogging down the sidewalk of a city street, and looking very athletic. Another person who had lost the ability to speak, and who could only communicate by moving his eyes, now talking out loud in a conversation and sounding entirely lucid. Patients saying that they had finally gotten their lives back. Loved ones saying that they had finally gotten their family member back.
			:And a new ethical issue has come up in that regard. These implants need a lot of maintenance. Repairing a microelectrode after a while, or even just changing a miniature battery. This can be very expensive, and there is a shortage of neurosurgeons who work in this specialty area. And (of course) medical insurance does not pay for it, because it's experimental. We are now facing the dilemma of patients who have been dramatically cured, but nobody will cover the expenses of maintaining the cure. So there are cases where the implant will just have to be removed, which is horrifying. One patient said that if you want to remove his implant, he is going to fight you over it. We are going to need a new way of paying for this, and we need it yesterday. --] (]) 21:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
			::{{small|Could I order one of those snazzy ]. please? ] says he'll do ]. Please send the bill to ]. ] (]) 21:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)}}
			:::<small>Sorry, you're one of those cases who just cannot be cured. --] (]) 21:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</small>
			:::<small>But if you don't have a surgeon to open up your head yet, Dr. Fishy would be happy to do it! Now, where is my axe, anyway? --] (]) 22:01, 28 October 2024 (UTC)</small>
			:::Discussion continues ]. --] (]) 00:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
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			This is probably me making a stupid impulsive decision in the middle of the night, but I try very hard to not let bad experiences burn me, so here I go. Hopefully our conversation goes better than the ], especially now that you've apologized. I still have no idea what you saw in me, or what those coincidences were, but I figured I'd give you a glimpse into what I'm actually like. I gave a keynote at this year's WikiConference North America. A lot of people said it moved them, but I'm not sure I actually did that well. There's a lot of umms and you can practically feel my fear from the stage (or maybe that's just me projecting because my heart pounds even trying to watch it). But I got through it. It still feels surreal that I really did all that. Anyways, if you want to watch it, it's . ] ] 05:45, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
	{{User QAIbox
			:Hi, and let me assure you right away that it's fine that you posted this here, and I appreciate it very much. Please know that you are always welcome on my talk page.
	| title = ]
			:I watched and listened very carefully to your entire video. You did very well, by the way, and I think you are an effective and personable speaker. (We are all our own worst critics.) Although I previously had a superficial understanding of some of your life experiences, your talk did indeed fill in many more details. I'm genuinely sorry for the difficulties you had to deal with, especially when you were so young, and I'm glad that you are finding the strength to move on with your life, into a better set of circumstances. If Misplaced Pages helps with that, all the more to the good.
	| image = Sunrays in foggy forest, Ehrenbach.jpg
			:I'll tell you a few things about me (all of which I've posted here in the past, but I'll repeat it in one place now). I'm 68 years old. I was sexually abused as a child, by a teacher at my elementary school. I've had ] for much of my adult life, and am getting good health care to deal with it.
	| image_upright = 0.8
			:That said, I'm sort of flattered that you appear to care so much what I think, but my sincere opinion is that you shouldn't care that much about it. Misplaced Pages can be a very random place, in that you never know who the other person is, who is about to cross paths with you in editing. Fortunately, there are plenty of fellow editors who are really wonderful people to interact with. But there can also be people whose opinions are really not worth spending any energy on. As I said, I'm glad that you are finding a positive community in editing here, but it's important to keep it in perspective. Don't care too much about any random thing that some anonymous user might say to you, or else it can really wear you down.
	}}
			:As far as I'm concerned, the rough patch that you and I had in the past is in the past, water under the bridge, any metaphor you want, to convey that it's over and done with. From now onward, I consider you to be a colleague, and you are always welcome on my talk. --] (]) 20:05, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
	The is pictured again today, in the context of my ] about arbcom. I mentioned you ]. --] (]) 20:14, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
			:: I was hoping that we'd be able to put this past us, yes. But that doesn't just happen automatically, you know? That's why I wanted to reach out about this instead of just being angsty. To be quite frank, the talk I gave just scratches the surface of everything I've been through. I've learned to be very careful in how much detail I explain my childhood, because it tends to either lead to people pitying me and seeing me as a victim with no agency, or feeling like their problems aren't nearly as bad. Life isn't a competition. I'm sorry you went through what you went through, too.
			:: I know you're concerned that I'm placing too much stock in what "random" people think, but it's a bit more complicated than that. You're not really a random person to me. I don't care about what random trolls say. Otherwise I'd be more troubled by all the revdelled nonsense (some it incredibly sexual in nature) LTAs say to me. The reason all this mattered to me so much is because I've always viewed you as my colleague, and I generally valued your perspective elsewhere. So it was a bit more personal to me in that way, I suppose. I just desperately wanted to prove that I could be trusted and it felt like there was nothing I could do that would be convincing enough. Sharing that photo was the first time I ever confirmed that information on-wiki, and showing ''who I was'' wasn't even enough. But I also know that sometimes people just don't like you and there's nothing you can ever do to change that. That's why I said I could move on, even if I didn't really want to. I generally try to err on the side of hope and that reasonable people will come around if something really unfair is happening. Because I've spent a lot of time dealing with people who won't come around no matter what you say.
			:: I think I am slightly more sensitive to accusations of lying and somehow being inherently evil; others might be able to put that out of their head more easily. My father's abuse started when I was 5, around the time he was ]. He hurt my Mom a lot too. Part of what made it hard to see that what happening wasn't normal is that my Dad was a "mentally diseased apostate". I thought that it wasn't really my Dad that was doing these things (he was just being influenced by Satan) and that if I could just convince him to come back to Jehovah, the abuse would stop. We'd be a family and everything would be okay. Then my living situation changed, as I said in my talk. So when I lost my faith and the support system that came with that, the only person who really understood what that was like was someone I could never confide in. I was worried I was destined to become some sort of evil monster like my father. Afterall, I was his child.
			:: My point is that you never really know what someone on the other side of the screen has been through and I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt if they've never done anything wrong. I don't think it's a good idea for the community to be so paranoid about socks that baseless accusations happen. LTAs do some real harm to people and accusing people of being one should not be taken lightly. ] ] 21:22, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::Well, it's kind of you to respect me enough to care what I thought. If you want, I can go into more detail about my thinking about the photo, but I'd prefer not to. I ''have'' said clearly and publicly that I came to realize that I was wrong, and you should always feel free to link to the diff where I said that. There may be a limit to what I am qualified to do, in terms of explaining why that past interaction with me should not be triggering for you. I hope there is someone off-wiki, in real life, who can talk with you about this. --] (]) 21:31, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::I do realize you have apologized since. I'm just trying to be open about why I cared about it. It's not triggering for me to simply have a conversation about this, I've been through a lot and this is nothing. Our previous interaction definitely ''hurt'' but it wasn't the end of the world either. I'm not asking you to be my counselor or anything.
			::::I just try very hard to make sure that our community is a place where everyone feels welcome, you know? I'm not the only one out there that has falsely been accused of being a sock and not the only one that felt some sense of rejection from the community because of that. I'm not placing all the blame on you here, I'm using this as an example that hopefully everyone can learn from? At least that's what I was trying to do. I don't think approaching people with inherent suscipion because they look like some other person on the planet or aren't making a ton of mistakes is what a non-toxic community does. ] ] 21:46, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::::In context, when you say "I'm not placing all the blame on you", it sounds like you are placing ''some'' of the blame on me. I'm going to push back on that. I'm not someone who makes careless accusations. In fact, I didn't make anything like an accusation, just a vague "neutral" comment, until you pushed me to say more about it. I wasn't "approaching" you with "inherent suspicion". At the time, there were very substantial reasons for my concerns, nothing careless about it – but also nothing that was your fault. I'm all in favor of doing more to making the community more welcoming, and I have a long track record of working towards that. In fact, you might want to look back and my entry on your editor reflections page, in that regard. --] (]) 21:56, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I happen to disagree with your conclusion here. People can care about making the community more welcoming while also acting in ways that don't always reflect that intention. To me, your accusations definitely seemed careless, and I doubt that others wouldn't also see it that way. I hope you reconsider what I've said. All I can hope for is that you get the point of what I'm saying one day. I've tried my best. I should probably move on from this conversation, because I doubt I'm going to change your mind here, and I've already invested too much time on this. ] ] 22:06, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I said I didn't want to go into details about my earlier thinking, but your insistence on calling me "careless" has made me feel that I need to do so. A long time ago, I happened to notice a comment you posted that sounded, oddly, like something that someone else might also have said. I'm not going to explain, because ] applies to that someone else, who may still be out there. The fact that it sounded that way could, of course, just be a coincidence. And in fact, it eventually turned out that it ''was'' just a coincidence. Did I do anything to you, as a consequence of that, that could reasonably be construed as hurtful? No. I commented neutral in your RfA, and did so in a bland way. At the time, your response was this: . I figured that was that. Later on, you came back to my talk, in the discussion you link to above. Let me reconstruct exactly what I thought:
			:::::::#Oh, that's disappointing. I thought we had settled that, but it sounds like she is still concerned about it. Let's see what this is about.
			:::::::#Good! She's posted a photo. I'm going to look at it and see it isn't the same person, and that will put it to rest. That's good.
			:::::::#Oh shit! I can't believe what I'm seeing in that photo.
			:::::::All that went through my mind more rapidly than the time it takes to read that. What I did next, was to pull up the photo you posted, in a separate browser tab where I could enlarge it. And in a second tab, I enlarged a photo of the person I suspect of being the disruptive user (obviously also a youngish woman). I then carefully compared them, side-by-side and feature-by-feature.
			:::::::Again, this turns out to have been a horrendous coincidence. But the similarities were remarkable, nothing careless about it. I carefully compared every feature I could find (other than changeable things like hairstyle or clothing), and each thing matched up, detail by detail. It was spooky. I tried to find subtle differences, really tried, really wanted to find some, but nothing stood out. I hadn't been particularly convinced that my suspicions were justified, but now I was really wondering if a very nasty person was playing games with me. I had to decide: should I just say OK and don't worry about it, or should I indicate that I had reasons to be concerned? Obviously, I chose the latter. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't, because that would have saved both of us a lot of hassle. But I said what I said, even then acknowledging that I wasn't sure whether it was just a coincidence. I didn't post about it anywhere else, just here on my talk page. Now I know that some of my talk page regulars posted some jokey things about it, in that same section, and I know that that hurt your feelings, which I ''am'' sorry about. But you also lashed out at me, at places like ], in the months that followed, and I feel that I didn't deserve that.
			:::::::The day that you won that Wikimedian recognition, I looked at the video, and immediately saw things that proved, conclusively, to me that this had all been a horrible coincidence. I'm not going to say what, because of BEANS. But I immediately went to your talk page to try to make things right.
			:::::::I know that this has been bad for you, and I'm very sincerely sorry that it has. I wish I had not gone into those details in my earlier talk page comments, and just let it all pass. But I did not do that out of malice towards you, and it wasn't careless.
			:::::::Something I'm trying to get across to you is that, on Misplaced Pages, you sometimes, often times, just have to let things go. When I was a new editor, I had this said to me by someone very experienced and respected: , which also led to: . This is the internet, and stuff like that happens. The person who said that second thing later became someone I got along with very well, and I doubt that he remembers what he earlier said about me. And I haven't forgotten what it was like to be a new editor. Indeed, my concern about that person whom I mistakenly confused with you grows out of my concerns over unfair things done to other editors.
			:::::::I get it, that your life experiences made you especially vulnerable to feeling hurt by what I had said. And again, I'm very, very, sorry that I said it. But I wasn't being careless. Stuff like this happens online, and one should not blow it out of proportion. --] (]) 22:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::There's also no proof that whoever you think I look like is a sock, as you've said yourself: {{tq|For reasons that I cannot post, I have a hunch that I know who the sockmaster is, and what they look like}}. I still believe it is careless to make these accusations because I wrote something once that apparently sounded like something this sock would say. I think that's what happens when people get so paranoid about socks that they don't listen to what this sounds like to literally anyone else. You really are missing the point of what I'm trying to convince you of here.
			::::::::I don't think anything I've ever said to push back against this logic is "lashing out". I'm not content to simply sit back and let people say awful things about me anymore. You have a right to think whatever you like about me and I have a right to respond to that rhetoric when it publicly involves me. I think I've been beyond reasonable about it, all things considered. ] ] 23:05, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::I'm not missing the point. I haven't gone looking for any of this. If you initiate a discussion, understand that you cannot dictate how someone will respond to you. --] (]) 23:16, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::I'm well aware I can't control how you respond. I'm saying that it's clear you don't understand the point I'm trying to make. I encourage you to ask other people which position is the more reasonable one. I have a hunch no one would side with you. Feel free to prove me wrong. ] ] 23:22, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::No one would side with me? That's cold. --] (]) 23:25, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::I'm not trying to be. I'm just trying to get you consider that if you're the only person who thinks something is reasonable and everyone else is saying it isn't, maybe you should consider if you're the one in the wrong. Like ] but as a general approach to life instead of just a content dispute. Talk to other people. See what they think. We're obviously at a standstill here and I doubt anything I can say here will come across. ] ] 23:30, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::And now I'm the only person who thinks it's reasonable. Everyone else says I'm wrong. --] (]) 23:34, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::When I referred to ], I was remembering a discussion about why people are reluctant to run, where I said this: . I'm confident that what I said was reasonable and relevant. And it also had absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing here. But your response, , made it into something about you, and not about what I had actually said. That's what I was talking about. --] (]) 23:40, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::I disagree that it had nothing to do with what was being discussed. ] ] 23:44, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::This is something I cared about for a long while, even before I ran myself. See ]. People see toxicity like that and get scared of the process. ] ] 23:46, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::I understand that. But my comment, in that diff, was about something else entirely. --] (]) 23:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::The general discussion was about why people don't run for RfA. I've had many discussions with people, both online and off (especially now that I've been a nominator), about why exactly they don't run, and I thought my comment there was very relevant to the general idea. While some people are concerned that certain things they've done will be taken out of context (like you expressed), others aren't concerned about that at all (they can own up to their mistakes and getting opposes on that basis isn't what prevents from from RfA), they're more worried about people finding reasons to reject them that are completely out of their control (like sockpuppetry accusations). RfA can be a rather arbitrary toxic process sometimes. If I could back in time, I'd link to what I did in the above comment because it would've made things in that specific discussion less personal, especially as I was replying to you directly at that time. But people really are scared about these things happening at RfA and I wanted everyone who cares about why people choose not to run to consider that. ] ] 00:01, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
			{{od|16}}Look, I'm also following the discussion about me, between you and Viriditas, on your talk page. Let me attempt to close with this: I want to go back to what I said near the start of this discussion, before it took a turn for the worse. You are welcome at my talk page. You and I are not enemies. I've apologized for when I was wrong, and I've set the record straight. I don't want to keep ruminating on something that belongs in the past. --] (]) 00:05, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
			:Sounds like we came to a similar conclusion at the same time. I meant what I said at my talk page too. I don't think something entirely belongs in the past when it's an aspect of our community that shows up from time to time and continues to hurt innocent people, but Rome isn't built in a day and you can always come to me if you ever feel like reopening this specific discussion. ] ] 00:10, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
			::Thanks. I appreciate that. --] (]) 00:14, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::I promise this will be the last thing I ever say on this unless you ever choose to engage with me on this topic again, but for what it's worth, I am sorry for the "no one would side with you" comment. I really didn't mean it to come across that way but to some extent, my intentions don't really matter there. That's a phrase that can have some pretty awful connotations for people (especially if they've been through trauma like we have) and I should have considered that. I should've been more careful. I'm sorry. ] ] 03:34, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::Thank you, I appreciate that very much. --] (]) 18:09, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
			== You probably don't remember me... ==
	== Bits ==
			...but basically, when I was a young teenager, I made an account on Misplaced Pages, and tried to fix some stuff. You helped me do it, and you were really warm and welcoming and you made me feel appreciated. I abandoned the account because I was a silly kid with the attention span humans stereotypically assign to goldfish(in complete ignorance of their intelligence, btw), and when I wanted to come back in 2018, I had to create a new account once I realised I had inadvertently revealed personal information that I don't want connected back to me. (Internet privacy was very overrated in my younger mind). But the way you welcomed me, and the way you walked me through edits/did the edits yourself, has always stuck with me. So thank you. From the bottom of my heart, thank you. I've wanted to say this to you for a long time, and the past week has been making me think a lot about it. And again, there's no way you'll remember who I am - our original exchange all those years ago probably didn't even take more than a few minutes out of your day - but thank you. ] (]) 21:44, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
	{{tq|"I'm selling some of those bits on ebay."}}
			:Thank you very, very much for that. (On a day when I've been feeling pretty shitty about the world, both onsite and in the real world, especially with anxieties about the US election, I really needed that!) I certainly don't know what account was your previous account, but I'm happy to have been able to help. I'm inferring that the ongoing ANI thread was the immediate reason for you posting this, and I, in turn, appreciate the comment you made following mine. I've been seeing you around (in your current account), and I've been noticing that you do good work and have good judgment (or at least judgment I agree with!). Anyway, thanks again for that, and happy editing! --] (]) 21:52, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
			== Oh yeah? ==
	I may entertain the idea if those ]. --]] 19:30, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
			]
	:For those wondering, we're talking about and . I figure it's time for me to cash in on Misplaced Pages. As for whether I was also making a ''double entendre''... --] (]) 19:34, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
			Regarding , I always assumed you were small and dry, like an anchovy. But if it will prevent me from EVER AGAIN trying to help an editor avoid sanctions, even if they are well deserved, please throw yourself onto a pizza ]. Good eatin'! But as I pondered on Doug's Talk page, what the f was I thinking? ] (]) 05:08, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
	:Wait, did you say you want to eat '''fish''' and chips? No eat fish! No eat fish! Help! --] (]) 19:36, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
			:Small and dry? I've been called a lot of things, but I don't remember being called either of those two before. Maybe just salty. {{(:}} --] (]) 21:51, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
	:: There is this place called the Bamboo Room in Haines that makes the best fish & chips. We are way past "no eat fish". lol Just wanted to have a little fun with you, Tryp. Thanks for indulging me.--]] 19:46, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
	:::{{(:}} --] (]) 19:48, 3 December 2021 (UTC)		:: But have you ever been called late for dinner? Or DOCTOR Late For Dinner? ] (]) 23:10, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
	:::Whether we're talking food, or ''double entendre'', got me looking for ]. Alas, Anthony Bourdain is much missed. --] (]) 19:53, 3 December 2021 (UTC)		:::]? What's for dinner? Pizza? Fish? Anchovy pizza? A ] of anthrax? --] (]) 19:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::Guess who's coming to dinner.... ]? No, it's ]! yay!! ] (]) 20:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
	:::: Good, I got you thinking and reminiscing over something cherished. That's the real gem from all of this and the joy I get out of it. Thank you for sharing! --]] 20:05, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
			:::::Yet more rampant ]! --] (]) 20:19, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Ah, ], scaley features! Shove that in your ] pipe and ]! ] (]) 20:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::You can lead a horse to water but you cannot smoke a fish, or is it tuna fish? I can't even remember if I've been called scaley before... Small, dry, and scaley. --] (]) 20:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Don't worry Trypto, at least you're not ]. ] (]) 21:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::{{(:}} --] (]) 21:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
			== just some food for thought ==
	Get back in the ], Miss ]! ] (]) 22:38, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
			When I first opened the thread about LB's trolling userpage edits, you were one of the first to respond and seemed to me to be acting as an uninvolved admin (which I now see is on me and not you, to my embarassment). You didn't make it at all clear to me or anyone else that you have a very cozy relationship with them.
	:Thanks all around. It looks as though I was successful at ], even if it got ]. --] (]) 18:35, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
	:: That's ] not ], {{u|Martinevans123}}. Should have known you would go after something shiny, even if it digital, Tryp. :) --]] 18:25, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
			Despite accusations to the contrary, I have never closeley followed LBs actions or watched his talk page outside of when I was actively engaging there, and so I was completely unaware of this. It created an impresssion that you were acting as an admin, as opposed to a friend of the accused person.
	== Thank You for your Arbitration Committee Elections 2021 Voter Guide ==
			I'm not making an accusation or saying you did anything abusive, I'm just saying it would've been nice to know, and that probably most particpants in the thread were as unaware of it as I was. ] ] 01:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
	Hello Tryptofish, I would like to thank you for publishing and providing your voter guide for Arbitration Committee Elections 2021 at ]. It has been very helpful and useful to me in learning about the pros & cons of all the different candidates with respect to their suitability for Arbitration Committee. It had proper detailed analysis and rationale on every candidate and helped me in voting informatively. Thanks. ] (]) 01:29, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
	:{{ping|TheGeneralUser}} And thank ''you'' very much for the kind words. Although I nearly didn't bother to write a guide this year, I decided at the last minute to do so and am glad that I did. It means a lot to me when other editors find my guide helpful, so I'm very glad to hear that. I attempt to be reasonably polite in what I say about each candidate, and to write it in a manner that I hope provides useful information about suitability, rather than to simply harp on a pet peeve or responses to a single question. --] (]) 21:29, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
			:Tryptofish isn't an admin, uninvolved or otherwise, JSS. ] (] / ]) 01:20, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
	Hi Tryptofish. I liked your guide and it's my guess it will fairly accurately reflect the results. 52% of the votes were cast on day 1 of the ballot. You might find ] of the campaign to be of interest. You are welcome to leave your thoughts on its talk page. Take care, ] (]) 03:35, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
			::well shit. For whatever reason I sure thought he was but didn't take five seconds to check. ] ] 02:02, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
	:{{ping|Kudpung}} Thank you very much as well. Given that there were 11 running for 8 seats, I suspect that this will be a year where it will be pretty easy to have some matching between guide supports and the actual results. But, as I say every year in my guides, it's not my purpose to predict the outcome, and I don't much care whether I do or not. I'm really focused on the suitability (or lack thereof) of the candidates. As a matter of fact, I had already been looking at your analysis, and was interested in the concentration of voting on the first day. I haven't yet looked much at my guide's page views, but if I read your graph correctly, even though my views over time were not very high, I seem to have had a very large peak on that first day of voting, when perhaps it mattered most (or not). --] (]) 21:29, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
	::There's not a lot to predict. It's more a question of who will be the three who ''don't'' get in, thus the result is going to be fairly obvious. Not a healthy sign for this kind of election or the future performance of Arbcom where there are barely enough candidates to fill the seats. ] (]) 12:32, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
	:::I agree. I think there's a real possibility of people getting onto the Committee who probably should not be there. (I'll bring the popcorn.) --] (]) 17:29, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
	::::That's the main risk and it does happen (in my opinion) each year there is a low ratio of candidates to vacant seats. Perhaps the election should be restructured to get more candidates. For example, have the community nominate candidates, those who don't want to run could remove themselves from the list, and then hold run off elections. Just an idea... ] (]) 20:25, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
			:Cozy? I don’t get that at all. My impression is that Tryptofish, who is unusually sensitive and perceptive to the nuances of human speech in written form, was treating LB as a person, with the kind of respect, compassion, empathy, and good faith required for effective communication. It’s wild how people can read so much stuff into it that doesn’t exist. ] (]) 01:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
	== Nadolig llawen a blwyddyn newydd dda ==
			::Well, my whole comment was based on the idea that he was admin, which he isn't and as far as I can tell never has been or even run at RFA, so that's 100% on me. I didn't sleep well last night and probably need to switch off for a while if I'm making mistakes that basic. ] ] 02:06, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::Lack of sleep does alter perception in a big way, so I can sympathize with your predicament. The only reason I responded was because I've often been impressed with Tryptofish’s active listening skills (albeit in written form) to the point where it’s forced me to come to terms with my own deficiencies in this area. ] (]) 02:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
			:It took me a few minutes, after logging in today, to be sure whether or not I had figured out what was going on here. Just to be clear, my only significant extra permission is rollback (and I think I also have that thing where I get notified about pending changes, but I only rarely use it and it mostly annoys me). I'm not an admin, and (although lots of people have asked me) I've never agreed to have an RfA. So nothing I did regarding Lightburst was ] from the admin perspective. As other editors have kindly pointed out here, I was just acting editor-to-editor, according to what I believe to be the right thing to do.
			:Beebs, please don't worry about having a bad night and mistaking my status. It's no big deal, and believe me, we all have days like that. And with all the shit happening in the real world, I think everyone, including me, is on edge. I also realize that you genuinely felt insulted by a lot of the things that have been coming in your direction in recent weeks, and I'm sincerely sorry that it's weighing on you. Please don't let it get you down.
			:And thanks, FFF and Viriditas. --] (]) 19:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
			::The really dumb part is that I use a script that shows me such things whenever I look at user or user talk pages, so like right now at the top of this very page I can see ''"An extended confirmed user, pending changes reviewer, and rollbacker, 16 years 2 months old, with 68,981 edits. Last edited 3 hours ago''". (it's actually really handy, but only if you actually look at it) I was obviously way off my game yesterday. ] ] 02:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::No worries! --] (]) 20:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
			== I know we often don't see eye to eye ==
	{| style="border: 1px solid plum; background-color: #A3BFB1;"
	|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ]
	|rowspan="2" |
	|style="font-size: large; color: gold; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''] llawen a blwyddyn ]'''
	|-
	|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid White;" |<font color =Green> '''So here's some and some and some and some just for you!!'''<br><br><font color =red>'''Very best wishes for Christmas and the New Year.''' <font color =blue> ] (]) 22:26, 21 December 2021 (UTC)</font>
	|}
			But I wanted to stop by to say that I really appreciate your respect for consensus around the recall issue. That's model behavior, and I just wanted to let you know that I see and appreciate it. ] (]) 21:33, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
	:Diolch, Martin, a'r un peth i chi! (I think!) --] (]) 22:56, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
			:Thanks, SFR! I hope that, now that Clovermoss and I have patched things up, you and I can be on a better footing. Aside from the things where we've disagreed, I actually think that you have been doing excellent work as an administrator. --] (]) 22:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
			::Thanks for that, it's nice know that at least someone thinks I'm not botching it. No hard feelings on my end, and I'm glad to put that behind us. ] (]) 22:21, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
			== RFA ==
	::I'm ], Trypto."You put the suck in ]"! ] (]) 17:21, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
	:::Well, I suck at a lot of things. Sialciwch hi i fyny i Google translate. --] (]) 19:18, 22 December 2021 (UTC)		Please keep the back and forth of a personal nature to user talk pages. ] (]) 23:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
			:If anyone cares, this is about this: . I see that you made an identical post on the talk page of the other editor, which I appreciate. As I see it, your role as the admin moderator in this RfA is to see to the community consensus that personal attacks should not take place on RfA pages. So for me, this brings up the question of whether you have allowed a personal attack, directed against me, to remain on the RfA page, and from my perspective, you did. I posted a polite and, I think, thoughtful neutral comment, with links to what I was specifically concerned about. The other editor simply said "Support, per Tryptofish". That's the kind of snarky posting that belongs on social media, but not on Misplaced Pages, and that might, perhaps, be an appropriate rationale for someone rejecting a bogus oppose from a troll or an idiot. I am neither a troll nor an idiot. And civility is expected not only of those who oppose (or who, for goodness sake, are neutral), but also for those who support. You have left the toxicity on the RfA page, and that's on you. --] (]) 19:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
			::The threshold for removing or striking a vote is higher than removing other comments. While I see the snark, it's also possible to read it as "I agree with this analysis, but find myself supporting." I've had another discussion based on something that was brought up to me about the RFA, and what I said there holds in this case. There is a rationale, and although it's not how I would have worded it I don't see it as passing the line. Reasonable people can disagree on where the line is, and any time there is one person judging the civility in a discussion involving hundreds there is bound to be disagreement on that line. ] (]) 21:12, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::You can read it as "I agree with this analysis" as in, the analysis that I had written? That's ridiculous, in this case. --] (]) 21:14, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::Yes, like the support that says {{tq|I immensely respect Tryptofish and find myself agreeing with the content of their neutral}}. Obviously that much better communicates agreeing with your analysis and deciding that it warrants support. ] (]) 21:19, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Those are two different support comments, the other of which, of course, is fine. The one that I am discussing with you here is not possibly that. And you should know that, because when you reverted me, you also reverted the other editor making it very clear that they disagree with me: . --] (]) 21:22, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I think this has less to do with you, and more to do with the recent attempts to reign in the free for all comments on RFA. I totally get what you are saying Tryptofish, but I think in this specific instance, SFR did the right thing, and honestly, I don't see it having anything to do with you on a personal level, so I would just let this go. ] (]) 22:05, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I appreciate that, I really do. I don't think that SFR did this out of anything personal about me, but I think the editor who made that comment about me did one of two things: either making it personal about me, or being so insensitive as to not realize that it came across as personal about me. I see a bias in the effort "to reign in the free for all comments on RFA." Comments challenging (badgering) opposes (or, in my case, a mere neutral) get way more leeway than those challenging supports. As for letting it go, I'm saying what I think here, but I'm not reverting anyone on the RfA page, and it's not like I'm going to make a crusade out of it or anything. --] (]) 22:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::I totally get it, and I think the editor did do what you say they did, but they only mentioned your name, and I think that kind of snark is allowed, however unfortunate. ] (]) 22:49, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Thanks for your understanding, and for your concern about how I feel. The way that I see it, the community has a policy about civility and a policy about no personal attacks, as well as a recent consensus that these policies should be enforced especially seriously on RfA pages. Although the editor has now stricken their comment and replaced it with something different (though, frankly, boilerplate), a snarky mention of my name meant, in this case, mocking my neutral comment, and policy does not make a carve out for that. And practice should not make a carve out for that, either. In this case, the target was me (and I have the same privileges under policies that any other editor in good standing has), but there are other editors who are more easily hurt by this kind of thing than I am. It's important to me to take a stand on behalf of editors in such a position, and I try to do that. The burden should not be on the victim, to just suck it up and move on. --] (]) 22:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::I'm looking at the responses to the oppose too, and stewing pretty hard. It's a difficult position, since I'm a single person trying to use my judgement to act on what the community consensus on what is acceptable. We're all aware that any consensus about what exactly is actionable incivility is pretty shakey, and varies widely based on who shows up to talk about it, and who's actions are being discussed. I'm sorry that I'm not taking the actions you'd like to see, and I mean that with no snark. Just know that I'm trying to moderate the discussion in line with my understanding of what most editors would think is acceptable or unacceptable, and applying that evenly. ] (]) 23:52, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Thanks for saying that. And I sympathize with how difficult this is to monitor, and empathize with your stewing. (Root vegetables taste good in stews, however. {{(:}}) Anyway, I'm not angry and I'm not upset. I respect your decision, and I'm not holding any grudge over it. Best wishes, --] (]) 22:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
			==Wishing you a Happy Wednesday==
	::::"Peidiwch byth â methu, gwers bob amser." (... my life at Misplaced Pages). ] (]) 21:24, 22 December 2021 (UTC) <small></small>
			]
			:Viriditas: how apt a message!
			:I've had a feeling this was coming, for a few weeks, so I've already gone through the various stages of grief, and I'm actually now at peace with the whole thing. I've become determined to fight back (off Misplaced Pages), and this morning I even bought a tire thumper. --] (]) 17:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
			:PS: Someone dressed as an orangutan would be even better! --] (]) 17:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
			::I chose ] for a reason. ] (]) 00:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::I also find it interesting that the personal values of ] aligned with the role of Zira. Hunter was a progressive democrat, and Zira was a liberal scientist at odds with her superiors. ] (]) 00:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::That one went way over my poor little head. --] (]) 21:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Do give my best wishes to Bob (Bob Amser). --] (]) 22:48, 22 December 2021 (UTC)		:Just , it seems? ] (]) 17:46, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
	:::::In fact, I think ]. --] (]) 22:57, 22 December 2021 (UTC)		::I've been reading the post-election autopsy articles and paying attention to various discussions on social media. This part of the analysis is the most interesting and will be talked about for years. ] (]) 22:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::One of the most interesting takeaways is the significant rise of ] and Latinos who turned to Trump. I predicted this a while ago, but I wasn’t alone, and it’s been discussed for a long time now. I think history will demonstrate that this will be one of the greatest self-owns ever, with both cohorts voting against their interests. ] (]) 01:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Yes, and a half-sister for ], allegedly. ] (]) 23:06, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
			::::There's so much that I could say here, but I wanna keep it brief. I think it's true that many of the voters who supported him will come to regret their choice when events, especially economic ones, unfold. At the same time, I think that people like me need to accept facts, including the fact that we just got bitch-slapped. Working people in the US are increasingly post-racial (which, in the long run, will be a good thing). They are very clearly angry at being, as they see it, condescended to. Even if they don't understand that the President doesn't raise prices at the supermarket (sigh), they don't want to be talked down to. They feel hurt, like they can no longer expect better lives than the lives their parents had. They have valid reasons for feeling that, and everyone owes them the respect that they have those valid reasons.
	:::::::I'm allegedly half-fish. (I'm actually half American, and half human.) --] (]) 23:10, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
			::::As I went through the various stages of grief (I'm better now), one of the things I came to embrace is the idea that I should not feel bad about things that are beyond what I can control. I can control my own actions, and I'm good with what I, myself, did before and in the election. And I'm starting to get clarity about what I'm going to do in the future, and resistance is a big part of it. I don't ''exactly'' know what Trump will actually do, because he's unpredictable, but I expect that it will look very, very bad once it starts happening. --] (]) 21:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::You put the fish in ]... and the cod in ]... and the ray in ]! --] (]) 23:32, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
			:::::You're worried about lil ol' ]? Just "Let That ]" shall we? (And I don't think he's there just to ). Still, at least the cows and the buildings with windows can now breath easy. ] (]) 22:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC) p.s. and never underestimate the mid-Western ]...
	] was a, um, ''member'' of ], but formed the splinter group ] to protect the ].{{fontcolor|blue|<sup>''''</sup>}} --Tryptocod<br/>Piece, bro! ] ] ] ]]]
	:::::::::And I may or may not put the cod in ]. --] (]) 23:55, 22 December 2021 (UTC)		::::::You folks over there better start practicing your Russian. --] (]) 22:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Ah, yes. Thanks for reminding us. More ] vicar? ] (]) 22:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::Shouldn't that be spelled "piece"? ] ] ] 19:12, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
	:::::::::::] But that's what I blue-linked it to. (And many of the images in the Commonscat for that topic are quite amusing.) And, a whole lot of Nadolig llawen or whatever that is, to you, too! --] (]) 19:35, 23 December 2021 (UTC)		::::::::I find ] helps me deal with it. --] (]) 22:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::{{small|I expect Elon thinks he already owns the ]. ] (]) 22:32, 7 November 2024 (UTC)}}
	::::::::::::My naieveté is showing. ]. I'll recipricate with words most familiar to our en.wikipedia - Be merry and safely enjoy the holiday spirits! <big>🍻</big> ] ] ] 19:57, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::And may the next year be a lot better than the one that's ending. And I hope your house-move is reaching or has reached a satisfactory completion. --] (]) 20:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)		::::::::::{{small|Oh, I thought that was Kim Hunter in an ape mask. --] (]) 22:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)}}
			:::::Regarding the working class, that's true. One of the reasons Clinton lost in 2016 and Harris lost in 2024 is because Democrats try to move right and appeal to Republicans during a campaign, which hurts their own base and never brings Republicans on the fence into their camp. I knew it was over back in September when Harris started talking about how fracking wasn't so bad. I also heard next to nothing how Harris was going to directly address greedflation and the prices which are driving people to desperation, from rent to food prices to insurance doubling overnight. These are real issues, and Harris barely raised them. Same mistake, every time. Lucy, Charlie Brown, football. Liberals and young people aren't going to show up if Harris is taking GOP talking points as her own. The DNC needs to learn from their mistakes. As for gen Z and Latinos, they fucked around, and now they are about to find out. I still remember the Latinos for Trump guy who was all over the news in 2017. Trump deported his family after he voted for him in 2016. ] (]) 23:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::Thank you, Tryp - it already promises to be! As for the house-move, it probably would have been easier had I actually been able to move the house to the new ranch. I still have two more rooms to go with a deadline of Jan 12th on my extended lease. I'm thinking 1 day to pack/move it, and a month to unpack/place it. Once that's done, I can get started on decorating the bar/stage/entertainment area in the barn. ] ] ] ] 20:28, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
			::::::This is something where we could potentially get into a lengthy argument, but I really don't want to do that. I don't see the problem as having moved to the right, instead of moving to the left. I see it as a problem as moving inconclusively, instead of taking a firm position and sticking to it. I've long believed that Bernie Sanders could have beaten Trump in 2016, and we'd all be so better off now if he had. That doesn't mean that the electorate aligns with Democratic Socialism, and it also doesn't mean that the electorate aligns with MAGA. The electorate aligns with whoever seems most confident and strong, regardless of ideology. --] (]) 23:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::] --] (]) 20:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
			:::::::There’s no argument; in the US we have socialism for the rich and capitalism for everyone else. Virtually all of the major donors and billionaires behind Trump are the beneficiaries of government aid, subsidies, and contracts. This close relationship between corporations and government is also one of the definitions of fascism. The push to eliminate the department of education has nothing to do with improving education. It’s all about stuffing the pockets of donors who will benefit from private and charter schools, which will provide less services for increased costs. This is the game. As for Harris moving to the right, this is pretty much substantiated. She reversed her 2019 promise to ban fracking a few months ago, with even the director of Yale’s climate change communication program saying Harris' position was 15 years out of date. I’ve addressed this before. Almost nothing has changed or progressed in the US in 30 years. We are not going forward, we are going backwards. ] (]) 23:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::If your nativity ], you're probably best off getting a ]. ] (]) 20:30, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
			::::::::Update: 53% of white women voted for Trump. I wonder just how many more women have to die from miscarriages in red states before that changes. 1000? 10,000? I blame religion, but I'm not supposed to say that. ] (]) 09:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::Nothing to be embarrassed about, it happens to ]. --] (]) 20:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
			:::::::::I've decided, for the sake of my mental health, that I'm done discussing this, except when it might relate specifically to editing on Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 21:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Just wanted to confirm. ] (]) 21:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::That's OK. I think I said that too harshly, sorry, but I figure you understand what I mean. --] (]) 21:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Understood. But all I have to do is couch any further questions in the context of ], and we're all good, right? :-) ] (]) 22:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::Ha! That reminds me of the neuroscience debrief that I posted above, some time ago. --] (]) 22:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::Where's the new one? ] (]) 22:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::]. --] (]) 22:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::First I'm seeing of it. Reading it now. ] (]) 22:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::Ah, that was a nice read. You should write more on Misplaced Pages. One thing you wrote that piqued my interest: why is there a high cost and level of expertise needed to maintain the brain implants? It sounds like an engineering issue that didn't account for the design? ] (]) 22:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::Thanks. About writing more content, I agree. Again, my mental health – and the firehose of blech every time I open my watchlist.
			::::::::::::::::::The expense comes from at least two things. One is the incredibly exacting neurosurgery that it takes to remove and replace an implant in an extremely precise position in the brain, with no room for error. It takes a large operating room staff and recovery staff with very specialized expertise. The second thing is what it takes to manufacture, again with no room for error, what may be a near-to one-of-a-kind piece of near-microscopic machinery. Often, this is a matter of giving small electrical impulses at very precise times to just one or just a few neurons, and not to anything else, and then measuring what happens in order to compute and precisely time the next impulse. --] (]) 22:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::I understand. Given the popularity of non-invasive brain stimulation devices, do you think this might work in the near future, and solve this problem? ] (]) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::Perhaps eventually, I'm not sure. The idea of "sculpting" the electrical field so that it targets somewhere at a distance is an interesting one. The question will become how precise the focus can be made. Although it would make the surgery simpler, it would still require a lot of the other things, including a very demanding process of tuning it to the exact target. --] (]) 00:11, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::Thanks for the explanation. Oh, to backup a bit and address what you said about the stress from watchlists, I solved that by eliminating many of the problematic articles on my own list. It helps! ] (]) 00:53, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::::Thanks again. For me, articles aren't the problem. It mostly comes from user talk of people I care about and really don't want to ignore. --] (]) 00:56, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::::]. Had never seen your User page image before. How utterly poignant and chilling. Bleak in the extreme. Quite shocking, in fact. ] (]) 11:44, 9 November 2024 (UTC) <small> p.s. '''End of season sale:''' One slightly confused has-been - offers invited (could possibly trade for orange ]) </small>
			::::::::::::::::::::::::Thanks, Martin. I spent some time tracking down an image that I felt would work, and that was it. Perhaps the interior of my mind is a terrible place to look, but that's what it is. --] (]) 21:07, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::::::It chills one to the bone. Sheer horror. ] (]) 21:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::::::::And I call this one ]. ] (]) 14:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::::::::Or, "Anticipating the Trump inauguration". --] (]) 22:40, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			== This is very, very important. ==
	==Happy new era==
			]
	<div style="width:800px; margin:0 auto; text-align:center;">
			If you care at all about the safety of Misplaced Pages editors: ]. (If you live in the US, just consider if Trump decides he doesn't like what our articles say.) --] (]) 21:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
	]
	Your friend ] and all her socks wish you a happy and healthy new Jurassic era! ] &#124; ] 08:30, 31 December 2021 (UTC).</div>
			{{clear}}
	::Thanks, and a great big ROARRR back to all of you! --] (]) 19:14, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
			===Music===
			{{User QAIbox
			| image = Apple tree in field, detail, Ehrenbach.jpg
			| image_upright = 0.8
			| bold = ] · ] · ]
			}}
			Thank you! - For a surprise, ] is on the Main page today, where it was last year for the 300th anniversary, and they were too lazy to find something new ;) - Look at my story, and listen to the 3 whole-tone steps and the dialogues of Fear and Hope. - I tell others at this point that there's an ] open to be signed. --] (]) 21:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
			] - ]. --] (]) 17:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
	== Happy New Year| ==
			] on the Main page. - I uploaded pics of a trip that was a 10-day celebration of a 16 November event, but the day was also when a dear friend died. We sang ] at his funeral yesterday, and it was good. --] (]) 19:50, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
	I hope the new year is treating you well. I noticed that ] is up as a GA nomination, and since you are one of my favorite scientific skeptics that I respect and I admire, I thought I should consult you in advance of even taking this nomination. On first glance, it appears somewhat problematic in terms of its health and medical claims in the context of science. I’m not asking you to devote any kind of time to this, but rather a cursory look of about a minute. My spidey sense tells me this could be a problem, and maybe shouldn’t be up for a nomination. ] (]) 04:05, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
			{{clear}}
	:Thanks very much for the kind words, and of course, best wishes for the New Year to you too!
	:I've looked at the article, and I'll try to identify the issues as they apply to GA criteria, without actually making a conclusion about whether or not it should pass GA. First, I think there is some ] language that could easily be toned down: "among the deepest possible states of relaxation" in the State of consciousness section needs to be preceded to "said by its practitioners to be". And "single-observation study of a famous yogi" in the Scientific evidence section needs to lose "famous".
	:I think the central issue is that all of the claims about health effects need to have sourcing that complies with ]. Some of it is simply cited to non-independent sources from the yoga community, and needs to be presented as assertions made by practitioners, rather than as fact. Of the content that is cited to scientific journals, most of it is to very small primary source studies (very small in terms of numbers of people), and MEDRS requires secondary sources, reviews of the literature. I think there is only one fully MEDRS-compliant review, which is . MEDRS can still permit cautiously-worded content cited to primary sources, but it needs to make clear that the evidence is preliminary. --] (]) 19:03, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
	::Thank you. I invited the user to this discussion in the hopes that they could fix the issues before anyone starts the review. Although I consider myself a people person in public, for some reason, my skills don’t translate well into text on Misplaced Pages, and I think you could communicate the issue with the editor far better than I can. Thanks for taking a look. ] (]) 21:53, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
			== Trump presidency concerns ==
	I'll take a look at it from the point of view of scientific caution. The article is not at all salesy but I can certainly make it clear what is yoga-talk and what is tentative evidence. ] (]) 04:06, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
			Hey, wanted to write to you here rather than taking up more space on the open letter talk page. Have you considered bringing up your concerns about how the Trump presidency might affect Misplaced Pages at the ]? That might be a better place for it than a talk page about a separate issue. --] (]) 22:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
	== Only Half ==
			:{{Ping|Valjean}} Pinging you too, as you opened the initial thread. --] (]) 22:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
	"I'm allegedly half-fish. (I'm actually half American, and half human.)"
			:Thanks for that question. For now, I feel like the immediate issue is the open letter, affecting editors from India. And if the WMF does the right thing there, then we have a good start for when the problem moves to the US. And if the WMF drops the ball, ''then'' that's when I'd be more inclined to act. When I think of how AmPol has become a CTOP, and about all the back-and-forth that happens every time Fox News or its kin get discussed at RSN, I figure just bringing up a new VP discussion will merely turn into a quagmire. So I'm going to watch and wait for now. But yeah, this will become a substantive issue sooner or later. --] (]) 22:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
			:It just occurred to me to indicate that what we are talking about is this edit I made: . --] (]) 00:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
			===It's starting to happen===
	Well, if that isn't a tabloid scandal I don't know what is. There must be some reason to take this to the drama boards. {{emoji|1F61C}}
			This is '''very serious''' for everyone who edits Misplaced Pages: .
			Discussion at ] and ].
	Touching my Talk Page again too. Trypyfish really knows how to make the girls blush. {{emoji|1F60A}}
			We need to take this very seriously. --] (]) 23:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	Hope you have an amazing year ahead of you, my friend. --]] 18:07, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
			:Agreed. The HF is launching an attack on this project, and the incoming administration is very likely to support them enthusiastically. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 14:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Thanks, and Happy New Year to you, too! () --] (]) 18:34, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
			::For whatever it might be worth, here are some of my (rather dark) thoughts: . --] (]) 18:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Those are smart thoughts, and I hope people read and heed them. These people aren't Saturday-morning cartoon villains. They're smart and competent, and we need to keep a clear head. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 19:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	== A barnstar for you! (3)==		== One disastrous election is enough. ==
			]. --] (]) 23:21, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
	{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
			:Thanks for posting your guide, Tryp; I always look forward to it. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 23:28, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
	|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
			::{{(:}} --] (]) 23:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
	|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Original Barnstar'''
	|-
	|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | For moving the convos on ] to be within the styling. Honestly I would be doing it myself however lately I haven't been feeling the best and haven't had much time to do minor things like that. ― ]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze&nbsp;Wolf#6545</sub> 18:08, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
	|}
			===ACE2024===
	::Thank ''you'' for the kind words – and get well soon! --] (]) 18:11, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::Thank you. I've been doing my best. The thing I'm mostly worried about is that I may somehow have CoVID, despite me having gotten the vaccine, mainly because some of my other classmates who went on the band trip to the Alamo Bowl have gotten CoVID since returning home. ― ]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze&nbsp;Wolf#6545</sub> 18:16, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::Yes, that's quite understandable. For what it's worth, because you are vaccinated, it's unlikely that COVID would make you seriously ill. --] (]) 18:19, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
			Hi. Thank you for your voter guide. The descriptions are very accurate. However: '''Error querying Pageviews API - Not Found''', ] (]) 01:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
	== ''Skepticism and coordinated editing'' arbitration case opened ==
			:Thanks! I had just duplicated the pageviews thing from last year, so I guess it's obsolete. I deleted it. --] (]) 16:20, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
			:Also, glad to see you around. (It also occurred to me that the pageviews might need 24 hours before working.) --] (]) 16:55, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
			::It works now. It just needs 24 hours for the software to do its thing. --] (]) 16:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::I'm not staging as comeback or anything, but stuff that concerns WP admins and Arbcom still interests me, particularly the chaotic discussions about RECALL. I wonder if they will ever get it right instead of just stumbling around and makinbg it far more complex than it needs to be - or just end up scraping the whole thing for want of knowing how to organise the discussions. Only about 4 people seem to know what's going on. ] (]) 08:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::I'm very dissatisfied about the recall process, and about how it came to be enacted, but I also had it pointed out to me yesterday that I've started letting my frustration show in abrasive ways, so I'm going to start dialing it down. --] (]) 22:32, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
			== ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message ==
	You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at ]. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at ]. Please note: per ], ArbCom is accepting private evidence by ]. If in doubt, please email and ArbCom can advise you whether evidence should be public or private. Please add your evidence by January 31, 2022, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, ]. For a guide to the arbitration process, see ]. <small>You may unsubscribe from further updates by removing your name from the ].</small>
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	: Very sage and sound advice offered. You know all to well how these things typically go whether you respond to the case or not. Maybe with new arbitrators it will be different. You are correct that if you do not participate it will most likely end poorly for the accused. In most cases I would say to fight but if the results are equal then fighting may have delayed the end result but ultimately you suffer from more wounds along the way. --]] 18:37, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
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	::Thanks. Yes, you saw what I wrote, and the less that I say further about it, at least here, the better. I feel rather sad about the whole thing, but, what can one do. --] (]) 18:40, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
	::: I agree with you. And it's okay not to talk about it. You don't have to. I know. I share in the sadness you feel. One is quite limited in what they can do about things outside their control (circle of influence) but no one can limit our own compassion and kindness directed at others. --]] 18:47, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
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	== A barnstar for you! (4)==
			If you wish to participate in the 2024 election, please review ] and submit your choices on the ''']'''. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{tlx|NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. <small>] (]) 00:21, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</small>
	{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
	|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
	|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Barnstar of Diplomacy'''
	|-
	|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Whatever the result of the ArbCom case, your neutrality, open-mindedness, and concern for the principles related to this case is sure to have a positive effect on its resolution. I look forward to coming across your signature in the future, hopefully in less heated environments. I see on your user page that you have dabbled in retirement, but I'm glad you stayed long enough to help out this time. ] &#8258; ] 21:52, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
	|}
			</div>
	:Thank you, especially considering that my evidence has been somewhat critical of you. Let me put it this way: like most ArbCom cases, this one is far too full of editors simply trying to say that everyone on the other side is bad. And that's not good. Anyway, I hope that you will find the feedback you have been getting as a result of the case to be a learning experience. --] (]) 21:58, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
			</div>
	::While it has been critical of me, it does paint a better, more complete picture of what's been going on. Additionally, I see the criticisms as professional ones and not personal ones so they don't bother me, especially seeing how they're (in my opinion) deserved. I'm certain that I will learn much more from the case as it progresses, although the whole way here has been filled with lessons. Hopefully my future endeavors here will involve less dispute resolution, and I think my involvement with the WikiCup and increased work at FAR is a good forecast for that. ] &#8258; ] 22:12, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
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	::A lot of us aren't saying everyone on the other side is bad. I'm saying the whole topic area is a toxic battleground, and nothing good can happen until that's addressed. We can't get community action against an editor using a (intentionally vague here) source they have a COI with to coat rack negative information into BLPs, and going so far as inserting that negative information into other BLP articles. As soon as any of that is brought up at a noticeboard a group of editors starts calling it a witch-hunt, hurling insults and attacks, and assuming the "other side" are a bunch of pro fringe editors, likely because there are a lot of pro fringe editors they've had to deal with. That's why it's at arbcom. Even just some decent principals and DS would help immensely. Being able to go to AE and post some diffs of poor behavior and get some sort of structured discussion would be huge. And, for the most part, incivility and attacks are tolerated far less at AE. ] (]) 22:55, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::SFR, I've really just gotten to know you recently, and it's unfortunate that it's been via the inevitable unpleasantness of an ArbCom case. From what I can tell, you are very smart and have a good sense of humor, two things that I like a lot, and I hope that in better times ahead, we will end up as wiki-friends. That said, I'm going to do something I'm known to do with my wiki-friends, which is to tell you the unvarnished truth as I see it. Whether you meant to or not, yes, you ''have'' been saying (in effect) that everyone on the other side is bad. All of your evidence is of what you think is bad behavior, and there is precious little about extenuating circumstances or context. And you've been reacting to every rebuttal (including mine) with a give-no-ground tit-for-tat. The impression that gives is of a partisan who wants ArbCom to resolve a content dispute in your favor. You complain about "stonewalling", but what I see in that evidence is a dispute that you lost because consensus was against you and you failed to convince other editors. They were not stonewalling, but just telling you what they think, and you didn't like what you heard. If things go the way they're supposed to, ArbCom is going to decline to overturn the consensus to your liking. But I know from long experience that things often go off the rails in ArbCom cases, with sad results. I have a bad feeling, as I just told Celestina in the talk section below, that they are going to site-ban Roxy.
	:::You said that you'd like to have DS, so things could be brought to AE. There are ''already'' DS for pseudoscience, so that's already available within that topic area. But if you want DS for "skepticism", I'd suggest that you propose on the Workshop page how to define that topic area. ''That'' would be a very good idea, one that I could support. But I, for one, don't have a clue as to how to define that topic area. I suppose it could be BLPs about skeptics and their detractors, but we already have DS for all BLPs. --] (]) 23:42, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::What I was writing below while you wrote that almost works as a response. Know that I have no ill will towards any participants, even Roxy, whose been nothing but mean in every interaction with me. Look at my discussion with {{u|Alexbrn}} on my talk page. I'd consider us on good terms, despite my posting some of their diffs as evidence. As far as it being a content dispute, I really don't edit much in the skeptic area, and I've stayed fairly clear of whatever the article I used for stonewalling evidence. There's no article I'm seeking to change here, just editor behavior that's contrary to policy. ] (]) 23:57, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::So Roxy has been nothing but mean to you, and yet you have no ill will. Pardon me if I roll my eyes. --] (]) 00:06, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::::I've been on the internet far too long to give a shit about mean words in text. Someone that traveled 2000 miles to come to my wedding was originally someone I had "strongly worded" arguments on irc with. I don't care that Roxy is a dick, or acts like a dick. If he hadn't blocked me from his talk page I would give him the same expression of concern and hope you did over the chemotherapy disclosure, and it would be heartfelt. I'm old enough to realize that you don't always get along with everyone, and a handful of interactions is not the measure of a person. ] (]) 00:17, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::::Just to date myself a bit, back in the early 90s, on a MajorBBS, there was a guy who was my absolute enemy. We were constantly antagonistic to each other, griefed each other in Swords of Chaos and Tradewars, and generally didn't get along. Until we did. He ended up being one of my closest friends for over a decade. Mean words in text are no reason to hold actual, real world, bad will. ] (]) 00:25, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::Either you aren't bothered by it, or you are making a big deal about it at ArbCom. But you can't have it both ways. And no, you don't need to ] me here. --] (]) 00:28, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::I wasn't going to reply, cause you went and hit me with the ol' last word, but alas, I'm going to be that guy. I am more than capable of, on one hand, of bearing no ill will to someone and not being personally bothered by their words, and on the other hand, recognizing that their behavior is bad. The two are not exclusive.
	::::::::Sorry for being that guy and replying after ] was invoked. ] (]) 01:26, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	:: and here's this so you can see what I've been aiming for since I first got involved. I think with the arbcom case things are likely to end up with stronger consequences for those involved. If the area weren't such a battleground this whole hullabaloo could have been resolved with some voluntary restrictions and a handshake. Or the person with the COI had said "I won't do that anymore," instead of attacking other editors with legitimate, good faith concerns, they wouldn't be in front of arbcom with dozens of diffs of bad behavior on the evidence page. The skeptic POV is, for the most part, the default POV of the encyclopedia, so there's plenty of sympathy and forbearance for skeptic editors. If any path other than "there will be no compromise" were taken, we wouldn't be here. And if this type of editing were done by almost any other POV, or group, or however you want to classify it, they would be blocked already. They were in a unique position to give a little ground and be fine with it, instead everyone's time is being wasted, and there's a fair chance we'll lose one or more editors in the topic area, if not more. ] (]) 23:43, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::I'll assume that you didn't see my reply until after you posted that additional part. I've deliberately not posted anything on the case pages that would "defend" the GSoW editors who were the original named parties, for much the same reasons you point out here. What I ''have'' done on the case pages is differentiate between policies and guidelines. COI and canvassing are guidelines; civility is a policy, but one that has never had agreement about what it means. On the other hand, socking/meatpuppetry, edit warring, and BLP violations ''are'' policy. I hope the focus will be on violations of ''those'' things. But if it gets into COI that was declared but not enough, notices on boards that might or might not have been canvassing, and huffy comments in talk, there is the likelihood of bad outcomes. I've thought hard about whether things would be different if the POV were something the opposite of skepticism. Yes, it would be different, but I think that's appropriate. The NPOV policy makes skepticism the house POV, but that's consensus, not some kind of cabal thing. Now if some users are making BLP violations and using skepticism as a fig-leaf, ''that's'' what ArbCom should be looking at. And when the discussion devolved to where some pro-skeptic editors thought there was a "witch hunt", they were reacting too bluntly to criticisms that were '''also''' too blunt. --] (]) 00:03, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
			== Probiotics and lucid dreaming ==
	Darn it! I should've started drafting my proposed findings before evidence ended, now you've got a head start... I disagree with some of your base assumptions as to the case, but am looking forward to discussing them on the workshop after I write a good reply. ] &#8258; ] 00:18, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
	:Ha! I just started working on it, in a subpage of my sandbox, earlier today, and I waited to post it for the private evidence summary to come out. But then I figured go for it. I've admittedly got an itchy trigger finger, but the Workshop is open for a week. Of course, feel free to post your own proposals, and/or respond to mine in the comments by parties sections. --] (]) 00:23, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
	:: I just want to say a few things on this thread. Tryp, avert your eyes if you don't want to read me boasting on you. The barnstar is very deserved but does not adequately describe Tryp's contribution. I have a lot of people I respect on Misplaced Pages but very few Wiki-friends. Tryp is one of the few. We probably don't agree on everything but I don't want friends that simply agree with me. That would be boring. Tryp is honest and speaks plainly but not brutal in his delivery even when I know he is annoyed or upset. That makes me respect him more. He isn't perfect, none of us are. But he tries to be better and shows great compassion. I think he deeply cares about the people here behind the encyclopedia. He makes being a part of this community fun, even when he critiques you. I'm glad we met and personally I am honored to call him friend. Okay, enough mush, back to your regularly scheduled programing. --]] 13:54, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::{{blush}} I'm almost at a loss for words (but, of course, that's only almost). I cannot possibly thank you enough for saying that. And back at you, I can always count on you to be one of the kindest and most considerate people around here. But what you described is just about exactly what I ''aspire'' to be like on Misplaced Pages – not what I think I am, but what I set as a goal to work towards. That someone would think that I actually achieve it is my fondest wish, so again, thank you. --] (]) 19:16, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
			I only just randomly discovered this and had no idea it was a thing. It turns out other people have doing it for a while and I'm very late to the party. I've never taken it before bed, so last night I decided to give it a go. Normally I take it during the day and I haven't experienced any enhanced dreams. This time I took a cold-pressed juice shot two hours before bed. The label claims that it has one billion colony forming units of '']''. I also had a focaccia veggie sandwich with those Italian herbs and spices baked into the bread, which are also infamous as alleged dream enhancers (talk to anyone who has ever eaten Italian food before bed and they will tell you all sorts of stories). I forgot to also mention, I consumed two large cups of hot ] (''Camellia sinensis''). So there I am waiting for the rocket ship to blast off. I go to sleep and wake up early, check the news, and then do the standard WBTB. I'm now in a dream where someone has dented my car and I'm upset about the body work I need to get done. What's funny is that in the back of mind, there's another sense of "me", that knows this is a just a dream and my car isn't really damaged. What's unusual, however, is that "me" doesn't have much of a voice and is being suppressed by the dream "me" in a big way. So, when I wake up from the actual dream, I'm convinced my car was damaged and start making preparations to call a body shop. About three minutes after waking up, that dream "me" disappears, and the primary "me" reappears and I realize my car is just fine. The closest feeling I can compare it to is when you lose your keys or wallet, only to discover that they are sitting right in front of you where you always leave them and you breathe a sigh of relief. Well, enough of this nonsense and down to the brass tacks. Probiotics and lucid dreaming? This is the first I'm hearing of it. How would this work if it does? ], ]? Give me the lowdown. In the past, I've experimented with liquid omega-3-6-9 supplements, which do indeed facilitate lucid dreaming. ] (]) 21:12, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
	== Communicating with established knowledgeable editor ==
			:I don't think there's any way that being "probiotic", ''per se'', would confer this property on anything one would eat. I'd need to put a lot more thought into it, to pinpoint specific chemical compounds present in those foods, but it seems to me that there must be molecules in some of these things that are psychoactive. (There's also the issue that your "experiments" are, of necessity, not blinded, so you may also get some effects because you have come to expect them.) It's plausible that that ''Bacillus'' makes trace amounts of who knows what. The tea certainly contains ], which is related to caffeine. There's certainly the possibility that a research project of trying to isolate the active compounds in these edibles could lead to something interesting. Follow the molecules. --] (]) 00:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			::Gut bugs can certainly produce psychoactive metabolites, including serotonin. See review. Veriditas, your experimental methodology needs to be refined a wee bit (OK, a lot), but with adequate controls you just might find, if not the ], perhaps the ]? Good luck! ] (]) 01:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::. Interesting stuff. ] (]) 01:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::TIL.. we have an ]. ] (]) 01:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Those are interesting links, both of you, thanks. There's no doubt that there are a lot of potential leads for new kinds of beneficial substances, out there in nature. I know there's also some interesting screening going on, for medically beneficial molecules, in venoms, of all things. --] (]) 20:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I remember as a kid playing in the dirt a lot, even up to the age of 8, after which I kind of lost the interest. I've read that ] at a young age have better immune systems. I have to say, mine is pretty good and I rarely get sick, and when I do, it's just for a day or two. ] (]) 20:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Yes, there's a significant amount of science to back that up. There's evidence that decreasing amounts of pediatric play outdoors may be causally related to increasing asthma rates and increasing food allergies. ({{ec}} before you added that link.) --] (]) 20:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::It makes me wonder if we are compelled to get dirty as kids for health protection. I remember having an unusual fascination with the dirt, and along with my play buddies, building strange fortifications, dams, canals, and tiny cities, similar to what people do with sand castles. Then we learn about hygiene and are compelled to do the opposite. ] (]) 21:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Almost all of human evolution, as a species, took place before the time of antisepsis, so that's the state of being that we evolved for. The addition of antibiotics is unquestionably a good thing, as are the avoidance of severe infectious food poisoning and the use of sterile technique in surgery, but the jury is out on other kinds of "cleanliness". --] (]) 21:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Tell that to the Trump admin! When they said MAGA, I had no idea they meant to take the country literally back to 1776. I read a book a while back that said every man, woman, and child was drunk most of the time in early America because the available water was unsafe to drink and alcohol was the safest way to get your water requirements. Not sure how true it is, but it did open my eyes a bit. ] (]) 21:18, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::And don't forget ], for which the evidence is sketchy but interesting, building off the hypothesis that exposure to and ingestion of the mother's vaginal flora helps to populate the newborn's gut biome. It isn't my field, now or ever, but I believe there is a substantial literature reporting that in the 1700s (Britain, ocean-going vessels, etc.) most people, including children and pregnant women, were at least semi-drunk pretty much all the time because of the unhealthy state of their "drinking" water. Providing safe drinking water to most of the world's population is one of the greatest public health achievements of the past 200 years. ] (]) 21:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::I'm going to ''try'' to forget that. My first thought was that this was going to have something to do with ]. --] (]) 21:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Get out of my head! That's exactly what I was thinking before I clicked the link. ] (]) 21:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::I'm a ], and I'm eating your brain. And with that, let's close this discussion. --] (]) 22:03, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::That's too bad. I had a pusillanimous joke all queefed up and ready to go. ] (]) 22:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::And I doubt ] was referring to ''these'' particular seeds as a source of discontent. ] (]) 22:12, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::You kids get off my lawn! --] (]) 22:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
			== Re: Western Motel ==
	Coming from Bishonen TP, this scared me, I’m a little too preoccupied to do read through every entry at the Case page, but please what exactly do you mean by “{{green|lose us some good editors}}” I note both {{u|ScottishFinnishRadish}} & {{u|Roxy the dog}} are listed as involved parties, and these are editors I have respect for, are they likely to get into any trouble? Please could you explain this to me? ''']''' (]) 22:42, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
	:Part of the context that I'm sure Bish understood implicitly is the way that the ArbCom Medicine case caused us to lose RexxS. In this case, the person I am especially worried about is Roxy; if you look at his talk page, you can see what I've been saying to him. And yes, I am very worried. --] (]) 23:23, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::Oh, yes, I understood you were alluding to RexxS, compare , and to Roxy. Of course. ] &#124; ] 22:36, 24 January 2022 (UTC).
	::::Indeed. And speaking of nothing, a few nights back I watched '']'', and now I'm scared to death of Swedish people. Swedish fire-breathing lizards, no problem, but ''people''. Just about gave me ]! --] (]) 23:17, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	:: May I worry with you, Tryp? I only know RexxS through you and Gerda exposing me to his contributions but the very first real ArbCom case I read through was his and then I kept hearing of others so I dug into the archives (I like to read and absorb information) and, sure enough, found others. I may not necessarily agree with the actions of those brought before ArbCom but I rarely felt that those actions warranted the response given to them. I don't blame the arbitrators, per se. These issues are more to do with the mechanisms and results of the process. How many cases, like the one going on now, resulted in no casualties, no loss and no harm? I can't help but feel the foreboding doom from the dark clouds building on the horizon. Can there be a rainbow at the end? I just don't know. --]] 15:01, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::{{re|ARoseWolf}} one of the Arbs said at acceptance of the case {{tq|To all parties: this case is one where it is possible I won't vote for any sanctions; I can see us acting to clarify the bounds of what is acceptable and what is not (possibly with the benefit of private evidence) without stern remedies.}} This may still come true. I think they made a mistake in apparently broadening the scope and all of a sudden declaring {{u|Roxy the dog}} a named party, but perhaps they will pull back a bit from that now. In any case, I retracted my evidence because I realize now that it doesn't belong there and that I made a mistake in bringing it there. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 15:44, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::: {{u|Apaugasma}}, I don't fault someone for bringing evidence once a case is open. You added what you thought was correct and then retracted it once you felt you made an error. I am in no position to judge whether that was an error or not and you certainly owe me no explanation. Maybe they will and maybe they won't pull back. I find it very hard to get the beans back in the can without a little dirt once they are spilled. We all could go back into our own history and probably point out different situations when we acted uncivil towards others, even to the point where in some situations it had become chronic and we had to be told to step away. I have always battled with extremes both ways because it is so easy to let the pendulum swing freely. My experience this past year with cancer has not so much changed my view on things as renewed my dedication to the principles that I firmly believe in. Funny how those situations tend to do that to us. --]] 16:31, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
			I would like to start working on '']''. If you can come up with the greatest hook in human history, that would be appreciated. ] (]) 21:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
	== ArbCom - the incivility issue ==
	{{tmbox|text=Everybody is welcome here, and I'm ''not'' closing this discussion. If anyone wants to comment on something related to how to proceed in the ArbCom case, that's welcome. However, the amount of back-and-forth about content and about editors being unhappy with one another has gotten out of hand, and I would like it to stop. There are other talk pages where it would be more appropriate to pursue it further. Thanks. --] (]) 18:23, 27 January 2022 (UTC)<br>(]].)}}
	Hi Tryptofish! I see that you on the ArbCom workshop page, conveying that {{tq|I am not seeking sanctions, and I sincerely hope that no sanctions apart from a warning or two will come from this case.}} While that remains very much true, I feel that it should not be ignored that I followed that up with {{tq|What I do want, however, is an acknowledgment of the fact that there indeed is a civility problem, and that it needs to be addressed.}} If there is no such acknowledgment, if indeed the problem will just continue, I ''do'' think that sanctions would become appropriate at some point.
			:No pressure. :-) ] (]) 21:14, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
	Since I posted my evidence, two editors have already made unsubstantiated comments about my competency, one editor my evidence {{tq|flawed "reasoning"}} without even attempting to explain why this should be so, and another me {{tq|if you want to debate, learn how to do it first}}. In itself this is ''really nothing'', and perhaps even to be expected in the context, but what I'm trying to show with it is how the broader pattern just continues. The common thread here is a habit of repeatedly and aggressively ''asserting'' that other editors are unable to reason correctly, without substantiating these assertions and without a real willingness to investigate or defend their accuracy. The irony, of course, is that this is itself a fallacy (]), and indeed one of the ] variety. Ever since Jimmy Wales the words "lunatic charlatans" to fend off an actual and dangerous fringe organization, some editors have felt it their right to frame anyone they disagree with as pro-fringe, and to simply ''assert'' that they are pushing crazy ideas and unable to make a logically valid argument.
			::]. --] (]) 21:19, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::Funny story that has no relation to anything in this discussion: I was going through some very old photos I made back in 2007-2008. It turns out I captured some pretty nice photos of some Hopper paintings that I wasn't aware of at the time. Seeing the painting up close and personal is so much different. I don't see any texture in that professional photo from the museum I linked to, but in my own, you do see it. I was having this discussion with Randy Kryn on his talk page a few months ago. Although we don't agree on much, we both agreed that seeing a painting in person and seeing it in digital form is such a different experience that we almost need new technology to handle it. It's an interesting idea. ] (]) 21:30, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::Oh, and in case I forget, the other thing that bothers me, is something like 80% (just guessing, based on how many paintings I've seen on Commons) are uploaded with the wrong colors/white balance, lighting, etc. Something I didn't understand until maybe five years ago is that capturing a good photo of a painting is extremely difficult and you need a very expensive setup; from what I've seen, the body, lenses, lighting, and the right setup required to take accurate photos of paintings are anywhere from $10k and up, although 10k is clearly the very low end, my guess when all is said and done, you're looking at closer to $20k if you include a lab-like workbench for the process). ] (]) 21:40, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
			:Update: ] just sent me images and video of the exhibition in Virginia. It’s quite good. I think the hook should be about that exhibition. See the linked discussion for details. Here is the news article about it. That should make it immediately obvious as to why it should be the hook. ] (]) 18:51, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
	Look, I'm really not one to complain of such things if they happen once or twice. But it's so habitual, so ingrained, that it creates a toxic editing environment. And this ''does'' hurt the encyclopedia. Competent, productive editors like {{u|Bilorv}} , like myself , are being chased away from the topic area. I know not how many others, especially newbies, will not even try to edit an article again after being so unduly derided and ridiculed the first time around. It also skews article content: contrary to a widespread rumor, Misplaced Pages is ]. The ] or ] POV of individual editors is ''not'' always identical to the POV of mainstream academic sources. I've seen it happen more than once that experienced editors presuppose they know what the sources are saying, and are simply not willing to have an honest look at them. The result is that they'll push inaccurate and/or undue article content, while at the same time ridiculing a perceived pro-fringe editor for pointing to accurate and/or due content in the sources.
			::Yes, I agree that has a lot of potential for a good hook. I'm feeling a little, oh, I don't know what word I want to use, so I'm not sure how much I'll contribute on this, but we'll see. Another thing I notice here is that I think what you are saying about photography is about old-timey film photography, not digital. --] (]) 00:07, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::The word, my friend and mentor, is ''ennui''. It’s times like this that every American needs to rely on their emotional support Canadian. Stay golden. ] (]) 01:32, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::No, definitely not that. Some kind of mix of depression, anger, irritability, anxiety, and whatever one wants to read into the images on my user page. --] (]) 19:43, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Interesting. This is from left field, but your comment reminded me of my grandmother (now deceased), who seemed to have a kind of ], and was unable to derive any kind of pleasure from listening to it. ] (]) 23:05, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::The problem is related to optical physics, so we would need a physicist to explain it. It doesn't really matter all that much if it is film or digital, there's a quality to the static nature of the captured visible light that a reproduction can't show dynamically, such as how the light appears to change when you move your head or come closer or move farther away from a painting. That's one of the issues, but not the only one. For example, Hopper's ''Four Lane Road'' (1956) presents this issue. Writer Larry Aydlette mentions it in an article about an exhibition featuring the work. He writes, "There is also nothing like seeing a Hopper in person. Reproductions (even the one pictured here) don’t do justice to the deep colors of summer that he renders — the darkening horizon, the long shadows, the ribbon of lonely highway." This is a common problem, and it's one I recently wrote a DYK about in '']'' by Frederic Edwin Church. You'll note, the problem in both paintings is remarkably similar, having to do with the deep colors of a sunset that photos can't capture. In the latter example, it was believed that it has something to do with the way the human eye perceives the painting as one moves in proximity to it. There may be something to this. Now, in terms of the texture that I captured in my old photo, I'm not sure why that is, but there are competing styles of museum photography where one captures the deep texture while another flattens or evens it out. ] (]) 22:59, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
			I gathered some online sources ]. I'm sure there are also plenty of books that would be useful. Unfortunately the closest place that has ''Western Motel: Edward Hopper and Contemporary Art'' is ]. Just let me know when you want one of the uploaded (if Commons allows it). ] (]) 10:50, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
			:Great! I've discovered some fascinating background info about the painting that is very hard to find. I was able to confirm and verify the basic elements of it in the general literature, but there are deep connections with Los Angeles history in the late 1950s that would be amazing to expand upon, but that part is almost impossible to find because it's locked up in archival documents that almost nobody has written about! Wow. If anyone knows of any Los Angeles history experts on this site that could help, please let me know, because there's a story here that's never been told before, and without sources we can use, I can't tell it. ] (]) 23:11, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
	I fully understand your concern about losing valuable editors over a heap of drama. I don't want that. But I think that you're failing to consider that we equally risk losing valuable editors by allowing this rampant toxicity and POV-pushing to continue. In the long term, trying to prevent the former without trying to prevent the latter will not work. We need to stop closing our eyes to uncivil behavior until it becomes so bad that editors get banned, or retire because they come to perceive the slightest push-back against their behavior as an intolerable impugnment (this is what I believe happened to {{u|MjolnirPants}}). Even if we manage to keep the uncivil ones on board, it won't do to ignore all the good ones they tossed in the water. But really, if we could stop the tossing itself, all problems would be solved at once, and this is what we should really aim for. We should do everything we can to avoid sanctions, but never at the expense of allowing the problem to continue.
			::Just letting you know that the ArbCom case below is likely to suck all the oxygen out of the room for several weeks if I decide to present evidence in it. So I probably don't want to commit to doing much about the painting page. --] (]) 20:32, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::You're choosing to work an arbcom case rather than write about a painting? No wonder you're feeling angry and irritable! :) ] (]) 21:16, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::''Touché''! Then again, I feel angry and irritable about things that need to be fixed with the editing environment, and will continue to feel that way until they get fixed – and, for me, that gets in the way of being able to enjoy content work. On the other hand, the Arbs seem to be making some dumbass decisions that may lead me to deciding not to participate anyway. --] (]) 19:34, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::]
			:::::Your hopeful idealism is impressive, especially this late in life. Despite your biological age, I am curious how is it you seem to drink from this bottomless spring of cool, clear optimism. The demographic here favors people who don't want change of any kind, and would prefer to keep things the way they are due to their strange predilection for the status quo, often manifesting as a unique value system based on predictability and structure, two things which are incompatible with progress and change. I will leave it to you to think about this. Thank you for persisting in the face of inevitability. ] (]) 21:33, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::{{like}}. I can check out any time I like, but I can never leave. {{wink}} --] (]) 22:23, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::]. --] (]) 22:33, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::I can't get over all the discussions on Reddit about an entire subculture of people devoted to ''eating'' roadkill. I never knew it was even a thing. I suppose it's probably not all that bad, but wouldn't it have to be fairly fresh to consume safely? Anyway, there isn't a day that doesn't go by where Reddit makes me think I might have lived a very protective and insular life. Oh, and before I forget, this is apparently very much a thing in Hawaii. There's a loose, informal network of people in the restaurant industry, mostly chefs, who will collect fresh ] if it has been recently killed by a car. This is also very illegal, as the state doesn't want people doing this, but there's barely any enforcement on this front. The meat is kept by the chefs for their own personal consumption. ] (]) 22:43, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{clear}}
			== '']'' arbitration case opened ==
	I believe that you yourself are not editing in the skepticism/fringe area, nor on religious topics, another subject area which shares a large part of the same editor base. What I'm doing above is trying to give you a perspective from within these subject areas. Maybe one has to see the incivility happen, the editors being chased away, the content being skewed (I should hasten to add that this aspect is perhaps rather minor), the enormous amounts of time needed at the talk page to set that content straight, etc., to get a sense that there really is a problem. If you've got 750 words on the ArbCom evidence page, there's only so much you can bring forward, so you select some of the worst you've seen. But really, it's only the tip of the iceberg. It's certainly ''not'' 'throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks'. I believe that the problem is not well perceived by many because they do not share the quixotic interest to heavily edit in these areas without having the pro- or anti-fringe goals that usually come with it, and so I'm kind of a lonely voice in this. I accept that, but I thought I'd share my perspective with you. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 19:49, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	:If you don't want your flawed "reasoning" called-out, stop doing it. You are producing rubbish arguments: and that is explained why on the page you link to. If you're going to adopt the role of offensive prosecutor (which you have chosen to do), and be effective, you need to be truthful and plain, not wrong and manipulative. ] (]) 19:59, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	::Alexbrn, I have explained myself at length at {{u|Pyrrho the Skipper}}'s ], twice. One more time: if you're not willing to engage with that, that's ''fine''. Really! But if instead you're going to continue ''calling'' it rubbish, all you're doing is reinforcing my point. You've done that enough now, so please do not follow me around with it. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 21:34, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::Before I get to the main part of my reply, I want to suggest to Alexbrn (who, by the way, is welcome here): I think it would be helpful if you could contribute on the case pages, particularly with evidence, if you can. (I'm not canvassing you to do that, but commenting in response to your comment on my talk.)
	:::Now, to Apaugasma, I actually ''have'' been in the thick of controversial religious topic editing, just not recently. (Take a gander at ].) I was the filing party in the ArbCom case about GMOs. And I know my way around a lot of other fraught topics, such as animal rights, and I'm plenty familiar with what happens with incivility. (In fact, a long time ago, ArbCom had a case ''called'' Incivility, and I gave evidence in ''that''.) And you just have to look at the top of my talk page now to see that I've had some experience of my own with feeling like being driven off WP by unpleasant editors. And what my friend MPants had to deal with was far from slight.
	:::I also didn't say "shit": I said "throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks". . I know you had limited word and diff counts, but you could have presented ''less'', not more. A lot of the criticism that has been directed at you by me and by others is valid, and I stand by what I said in my own comments. Now as for your desire that there be an acknowledgment of the problem in the final decision, that's something that I fully support (as long as ArbCom doesn't get heavy-handed about it, which they have an unfortunate tendency to do). As for the editors who are members of GSoW, there is private evidence, and I'm deliberately not commenting on what I don't know. But as for the on-wiki toxic discussion environment, I'm increasingly thinking that the central failure here has been that DS, enforceable at AE, were available before coming to ArbCom, but there was something in the way of getting that utilized. ANI and COIN are simply not places where anyone has ever gotten civility concerns about experienced editors resolved. --] (]) 21:38, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::Adding something more: About skepticism and whether or not it aligns with policy here, it really is the case that ] (which is part of ]) is a core policy, and is basically what skepticism is usually about. Where they diverge in terms of our policies is primarily with ], so skepticism does not justify BLP violations about people criticized by skeptics. A focus on ''that'', along with, possibly, ], ], and ], would have been far more useful. --] (]) 21:57, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::I believe there was some hesitancy to use pseudoscience DS for the COI. Also, I don't think that psychics fall under pseudoscience DS, as they fall on the Santa Claus and his flying reindeer side of the spectrum. I'm would hope that if anyone thought the existing DS would cover this they would have mentioned it, as going to arbcom was mentioned. Even the arbs could have said "take it to AE, decline until existing dispute resolution is exhausted." ] (]) 22:11, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::Clearly there was some hesitancy, and that's why (as I assume you saw) I just added something about it not being used, to the Evidence page. It's true that they might be of limited use for COI, but they are tailor-made for incivility. And ''that'' would have been the place where there could have been: "you need to be more civil, and this is your final warning". Now, we're at the place for "this is the last resort for intractable problems, so we don't do warnings or admonishments, just bans and boiling in oil". ArbCom didn't say "take it to AE" because there was private evidence, that I assume was unrelated to incivility. Why no one at ANI didn't point there, I don't know, but ArbCom ought to take a look at why not. --] (]) 22:22, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::::In that case there was no reason to expand the scope. Pass a motion clarifying that the DS applies to skeptics and psychics or what have you, then open a case specifically on the COI editing to handle the private evidence. That would have been easy peasy. ] (]) 22:27, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::Yes, exactly. At long last, I agree with you 100%.
	:::::::(But they did it, given that they added you as a named party in addition to Roxy, because of the evidence in your case request statement, I'm sorry to say. Maybe it's also my fault, because I drew attention to it, because of the notifications. {{facepalm}} Let's blame it on the reindeer, ok? I never trusted that Rudolph character.) --] (]) 22:34, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::I didn't really understand why I was added as a party, other than as a preemptive word and diff limit extension. ] (]) 22:55, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::Unless they have some deep dark secret why they're going to stick it to you (not really), it's because someone decided that you had a lot of evidence that they wanted to see, so they gave you that extension. And it follows that they added Roxy because they were interested in your evidence about him. --] (]) 23:03, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::<small>. ] (]) 23:10, 23 January 2022 (UTC) </small>
	::::] is both a specific philosophical position (closely related to ]: roughly, the idea that only empirically verifiable things and logic, not coincidentally the two things needed to do ''science'', 'really' exist) and a type of activism. ] is an editorial policy within an encyclopedia that is designed to make sure that pseudoscience and fringe topics are represented from the mainstream point of view (perhaps we should rename NPOV to MPOV? 'mainstream' is in its own way ambiguous, but perhaps less so than 'neutral'). To conflate these two, or even to suggest that they always share the exact same goals, would be seriously mistaken. While BLPs may be the most visible place for issues to arise, anything where philosophical questions come into play (like whether it is possible to positively affirm the nonexistence of empirically unverifiable concepts like '']'', a philosophically debatable assumption that most scholars who deal with ''qi'' do not make), and especially anything where the activist goal of debunking and disparaging fringe stuff comes into play, ''will'' lead to friction between what scientific skeptic editors are doing and the proper application of PSCI/NPOV. In particular, PSCI does not trump DUE, nor ], both of which scientific skeptic editors often have much incentive to ignore.
	::::That the civility issues should have been, somehow, at AE is an excellent point. The problem is indeed that it's not immediately clear what DS it would fall under, but ] would probably do it. That was a mistake, and one I will be sure not to make again. While it's true that the Arbs could have done some things differently (passing a motion that DS apply to scientific skepticism and fringe, broadly construed, would be helpful), this is really my fault. I have retracted my evidence accordingly. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	{{cot|Extended discussion}}
	:::::"Specific philosophical position" well, yes and no. Philosophically, like everything, it can be classified, but philosophy is also doomed to do so for everything at the same level. Outside of the human mind's games and labyrinths is reality (the real world) and a main goal of the scientific method is to attempt to assess it. It is reasonable to admit that we may never have an answer to everything, but skepticism is an important part of that method, so are systems to defeat the natural fallacies and illusions of scientists. As a path to knowledge it is quite successful and to describe what is best called "the real world" as "only a materialist position" is a false equivalence between the "metaphysical positions". Philosophical arguments are also among the favorite of apologetics who want to insist that we don't know anything, a type of nihilism to justify that all beliefs are equal... I hope that it's not what you mean by IMPARTIAL, it would be misrepresenting it. Pseudoscience for instance, is simply something that is not science but is presented as such. For Misplaced Pages, it's even simpler: if we have decent sources that describe a topic as such, ] should be applied. If some decent sources also dispute that, it can also be mentioned. We don't have to deal with the ] ourselves. —]] – 17:25, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::::I'm not discussing the philosophical merits of scientific skepticism, which would be interesting in itself, but not what's relevant here. What's relevant is that, like all philosophical systems, it takes a number of positions which go ''beyond'' what is indeed philosophically debatable (since in principle everything is) but still near-universally accepted as indisputable. The trouble is that proponents of scientific skepticism often do not distinguish between what is near-universally held to be indisputable and what they as scientific skeptics regard as indisputable. They tend to assume that these two categories overlap entirely, which is not the case. The idea that reality is exclusively located outside of the human mind, for example, is a typical skeptic/positivist premise. I'm not arguing that this premise isn't true, I'm not even arguing that it is not held to be true by a majority, I'm merely arguing that it's not one of those things which are ''near-universally'' held to be ''indisputably'' true (like, e.g., logic, mathematics, or even empirical facts as ] from repeated sensory input). What is 'really' real or not is a notorious philosophical problem, lying at the basis of one of its main branches (]), and precisely the subject of much dispute.
	::::::Reliable, academic sources that do not have any philosophical axe to grind will not normally take strong ontological positions. We live in a culture that strongly epistemologizes things: what matters is what we can ''know'', not what ''is''. If, for example, they are talking about something scientific, what counts is that the phenomenon is empirically observable and that the results of this observation fit into a logically coherent theory. Whether any of it is 'real' or not is a question that is not even posed. When such sources are talking about pseudoscience, the relevant determinations are that despite purporting to be scientific, there is no empirical evidence for it, and/or that it's impossible to fit into existing and accepted scientific theories. Again, whether it is 'real' or not is a philosophically loaded question that doesn't even need to come into play. For this type of sources, ] dictates that they don't need to wade through complex ontological problems if it doesn't add anything to the analysis.
	::::::Not so for scientific skeptic sources. These routinely and casually imply that things for which there is no empirical or scientific evidence are not real, imaginary, do not exist, etc. This is largely for rhetorical reasons: saying that something is imaginary is a good way to discredit it, which is a core goal for scientific skeptic sources. It works much better than to merely say that there is no scientific evidence for something. There is no scientific evidence for many things: for the existence of God, for the existence of good and evil, for the truth of ]s, or even for the existence of a set of such axioms that is ]. As is evident from the preceding list, things also quickly get very complicated that way. But of course, apart from rhetorical reasons, there's also just the scientific skeptic ''conviction'' that when there's no scientific evidence for something, that means it's imaginary. Nothing wrong with that. But as should be clear by now, this is a very specific position that cannot and normally is not taken to be indisputably true.
	::::::What's relevant for Misplaced Pages here is that regular mainstream academic sources do not normally wade into the deeps of ontology, while scientific skeptic sources make strong ontological assumptions not generally found elsewhere. This also means that these two types of sources will write in a different tone. The tone that we should follow, naturally, is that of the mainstream academic sources. This is a basic question of WP:DUE. But what mainstream academic sources themselves are doing in not taking strong ontological positions is also more directly required from us by ]: ''The tone of Misplaced Pages articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view.'' IMPARTIAL also points out that ''inappropriate tones can be introduced through how facts are selected, presented, or organized.'' Basically, the kind of framing done in scientific skeptic sources, which is aimed at persuading the reader of a certain POV, is inappropriate on WP, even independently of issues of DUE. But the rhetoric of 'not real', 'does not exist', 'merely imaginary', etc. is adopted wholesale by some editors, which in most cases is extremely unencyclopedic. It violates both DUE and IMPARTIAL, and it's this that I was referring to above when I said that scientific skeptic editors have much incentive to violate these two aspects of NPOV. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 23:52, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::Wrong again. We use the most appropriate sources for discussing whether woo is woo, and abide by them. So stuff like "drinking bleach cures cancer" isn't accorded the long-winded dance-around you favour. We say it's rubbish just like the sources. Job done. ] (]) 06:42, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::Now ''that'' is a ]: where did I argue for the proposition that we should use inappropriate sources (surely not where I argued for using mainstream academic sources over skeptic blogs?), and where did I argue for the proposition that we should have a long-winded dance-around for fake cancer cures? Nowhere, of course. You're just implying that I defend these propositions, and since everyone around here strongly believes these propositions to be false (unlike, e.g., the proposition that Holocaust deniers and similar fringe-pushers are 'bad people', which is perhaps pettily framed but not untrue, and not something I or anyone here would refute), you don't even need to refute them. But the strawman you put up there and shot down is really something ''you'' need to believe I'm defending, because if I wouldn't, none of your rhetoric would work. And since I don't, it doesn't, except to the extent that others around here also believe that I'm defending these things. So what's really at stake here for you is to make others believe that I ''am'' defending these things. Once it's established I'm a fringe-pusher, no more words are needed, right? But it's impossible to have a real conversation when it is shot through with such hostile rhetoric.
	::::::::I get it, you were POV-pushing (replacing a clumsy and unclear but still more or less accurate summary of with something that directly contradicts it), I explained precisely why to the ArbCom , and now you think the best defense is to attack. While that is never a good idea, I ''retracted the evidence''. You can calm down now. Maybe look at that and re-read . Maybe put up a good-faith attempt to understand why someone would object to the ontologically loaded and unsourced statement you made there as unencyclopedic, even if they personally believe the statement to be true (I do: I positively believe that qi doesn't exist). And then perhaps disagree, but agree to disagree without further attacks and aspersions. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 14:54, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::I don't know ''what'' you're doing, other than producing verbiage. You don't seem to understand logic, sourcing or the ]s so it's impossible to respond meaningfully. If sources say qi doesn't exist, so does Wikpedia, precisely because of: sourcing, logic and the ]s. ] (]) 15:16, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::The source says {{tq|the existence of qi can neither be proven nor disproven}}. If you make of that {{tq|sources say qi doesn't exist}}, you're misrepresenting them, right here. If you can't see that 'qi does not exist' is in direct contradiction with 'the existence of qi cannot be disproven', then ''you'' have a serious problem with understanding logic. It would appear that you have. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 15:49, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::As was discussed at the time, we had sources saying qi doesn't exist (which as you admit, is trivially true). By your argument because unicorns can't be proven not to exist, we can't say unicorns aren't real. But they aren't real; they're a myth (just like qi, as our sources ''literally'' say: "myth"). Misplaced Pages is based on reality, whereas you seem to inhabit some elaborate personal thought system built on bogus reasoning. We're not going to be adopting it. ] (]) 16:01, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::::Incidentally, we don't have sources saying that qi does not exist. The skeptic blog in the diff says that meridians are imaginary, not qi. But that indeed is trivial. The salient point is that if something can't be proven not to exist, its nonexistence simply is not a verifiable fact. Non-philosophical academic sources, as well as encyclopedias, deal with verifiable facts. That's why they don't state stuff like 'unicorns do not exist'. Stating this as some kind of serious 'fact' actually borders on the ridiculous. Furthermore, Misplaced Pages is based on sources, not on 'reality', and it's ''your'' personal thought system that is being mistaken for 'reality' here.
	::::::::::::But note how you're backpedaling: did you or did you not directly contradict the source in that diff? Does 'qi does not exist' contradict 'the existence of qi cannot be disproven', or not? It's a simple question really. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 16:32, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::No, my editing was faithful and wise. Unicorns don't exist; neither does qi. Quacks insist otherwise, and base treatments on what they say and charge money for it (and do harm). Misplaced Pages calls out the woo to satisfy NPOV, using appropriate sources. Your invocation of a notion of "verifiable non-existsence" in this context is yet more nonsense, of the kind we hear continually from ] editors (Hmm, perhaps water has a ] but science hasn't yet found a yet to show it... You can't say this is bogus - respect my reasoning! etc! ) ] (]) 17:01, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::You misrepresent the source, defy logic, evade direct questions about it, and instead turn to more aspersions. It's the whole of your malformed argument: you're pro-fringe because what you say resembles some of the things I heard from pro-fringe editors, and since you're pro-fringe, you must be wrong somehow. But I honestly believe that some things just go over your head here. To say that something's nonexistence is not verifiable is just another way of saying that you can't prove it doesn't exist. It's <u>what Ernst says</u>. To infer from the unverifiability of something's nonexistence that it actually exists (a ''non sequitur''), or that its existence should be taken as a serious possibility despite there not being a shred of empirical or theoretical evidence for it, is something else entirely. ''That'' kind of bad reasoning is the pro-fringers' game. It's not what I say. What I say is that our best source points out that qi can't be proven to not exist, and that writing 'qi does not exist' directly contradicts that. It violates WP:V, as well as WP:NPOV. The fact that you will not answer my simple question about this clearly shows that you are in denial. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 18:04, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::I cast no aspersions. Your argument is just a variant of "we can't know anything". That not how it works (even in philosophy). If you think (in anything other than a school debate) that the non-falsifiability of something means it might be real, then good luck to you. I recommend not pursuing such eccentricity on Misplaced Pages mind you. Misplaced Pages works with ''accepted knowledge''. ] (]) 18:24, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
	{{cob}}
	:I just found this thread, and it illustrates wonderfully what I said in the contribution linked above {{tq|another telling me "if you want to debate, learn how to do it first"}}. This is how that happened, demonstrated with two of many examples of bad reasoning by Apaugasma:
	:*I talked about what mistakes different profringe people make
	:*] said , {{tq|you've heard some bad people say that}} and {{tq|Not everyone who affirms these almost self-evident truths is one of the bad people}} and {{tq|Again, it's not because some of the bad people like to}}.
	:*I had not mentioned any "bad people", and I do not think of those people as "bad". "Bad people" are an invention of Apaugasma, words that have been put into my mouth. They are a classic ]. Everybody who knows that fallacy can see that. So I wrote , {{tq|That has nothing to do with {{tq|bad people}} (a ], BTW. I don't see them as bad people, they just annoy me)}}. That was an explanation or substantiation of the "strawman" assertion.
	:*The response shows that the explanation fell on deaf ears: : {{tq|it's you who takes offense at anyone disagreeing with you, and casually represents them as being dogmatic, promoting bullshit, using bad reasoning, putting up strawmen, etc.}} When '''I''' am accused of bad reasoning, the last thing that would come to my mind would be to complain about the accusation. Instead, I would either plead guilty or not guilty, and, in the second case, explain why the accusation is wrong. {{tq|there's also so much ad hominem}} I cannot find any ad hominem by me in that discussion, only 1. disagreement and 2. criticism of reasoning. So, unless I overlooked something despite checking twice, the accusation of "ad hominem" is either a lie, or a careless oversight, or it demonstrates that Apaugasma does not understand what "ad hominem" means.
	:*Change of venue to my Talk page: :{{tq|When I tell someone that they have used a fallacy, such as a strawman, then the correct response is either, "you are right, that was bad reasoning" or "you are wrong, it was good reasoning because " and not "Waaah! You accused me of bad reasoning! That is ad hominem!" Of course, pointing out the bad quality of someone's reasoning is the exact opposite of ]. Go read the article, you don't know what the term means.}} That was an explanation or substantiation of what I asserted. {{tq|From my previous exchanges with you, I have no expectation that you will learn anything from what I am saying here. I expect you will complain about it instead.}}
	:*This is exactly what happened! Uncanny! Instead of clearing up the question or of silently accepting the reprimand and trying to get better at discussions, Apaugasma came here and complained about me teaching her/him about how discussions work. The claim above {{tq|two editors have already made unsubstantiated comments about my competency}} and {{tq|without substantiating these assertions}} is either a lie, or a careless oversight, or it demonstrates that Apaugasma is not competent or willing to understand the arguments of opponents. I had substantiated my accusation of using a strawman as well as my accusation of not understanding what "ad hominem" means. If one cannot follow an explanation, one should ask for clarification.
	:That behavior is typical: When accused of bad reasoning, Apaugasma will deflect, evade, and counterattack (often by running to someone else and complaining) instead of either admitting to have been wrong in that one point, or asking for clarification, or explaining why the accusation is wrong. That behavior is unacceptable. It is not possible to have meaningful discussions with this user until that changes. --] (]) 11:06, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	::{{u|Hob Gadling}}, Apaugasma has retracted the evidence and will move the discussion elsewhere where it's more relevant. Adding this after the conversation is more or less done just to get a dunk on another editor is not constructive nor helpful to collaborative editing. It might boost your ego, but that's about it. ] helps none of us, and in fact increases the uncivil atmosphere pointed out in the arbcom case in which you are currently participating. {{tq|I just found this thread, and it illustrates wonderfully what I said in the contribution linked above}} feels just like finding a dead horse and ]. ] &#8258; ] 11:36, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::You are assuming that I knew {{tq|the conversation is more or less done}}. I did not. --] (]) 11:57, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	::Hi {{u|Hob Gadling}}! I would take this to your talk, but since you've asked me not to comment there, let me reply here. If you go back to my comment (which, incidentally, is the sharpest I made, lost my patience a bit there), and replace {{tq|bad people}} with {{tq|annoying people}} or {{tq|pro-fringe people}}, would the meaning change in any way? <small>(please try this before you read on)</small> My point was that the mere fact that annoying/fringe-pushing/'bad' people claim something (i.e., that we should not be biased) does not, by itself, make that claim false. It's a bit like ]: it's not because bad-faith editors commonly complain that we should not slander people and follow BLP, that we should say 'yes, we ''are'' slanderous, and this is the ''real'' meaning of BLP'. Likewise, it's not because bad-faith editors commonly complain that we should not be biased and follow NPOV, that we should say '], and this is the ''real'' meaning of NPOV' (that's my view anyway, and the point I was trying to make, in direct reply to yours about fringe people crying bias ). My use of the expression 'bad people' was perhaps unfortunate (we were talking about Holocaust deniers before, and I wanted to generalize away from that), but it is not in any way a ]: 'bad people' do indeed claim in bad faith that we should not be biased, and I was in no way putting easily refutable words into your mouth only to go on refuting them (which is what a strawman would be: implying you think they're bad, which it would be easy to show they're not, and then indeed demonstrating that they're not bad). Rather, the expression 'bad people' may be understood as a bit contemptuous (it may imply that the fight against them is a petty affair, which it is not): ''I'' was being uncivil there.
	::I'm sorry that I didn't point that out the first time, but really just consider your own comment here: apart from the unfounded claim that I was putting up a strawman, you were (and this is a list): calling what I said bullshit, making a red herring out of the fact that I had (again, unfortunately) used the expression "almost self-evident truths" (in reference to "scientists cannot afford to ignore the evidence" and " should be unbiased"; the point did not depend on these things being true, but rather on their not being ''rendered false'' by bad-faith actors claiming it: replace "these almost self-evident truths" with "these things", and the point remains exactly the same <small>–again, try this before you read on</small>), calling me dogmatic, purporting to teach me about the right way to debate, comparing me to a creationist spouting bad reasoning, implying that I was preaching that everybody should be like me, and affirming that this wouldn't work on you. Then go back to my comment to which you were replying, and see how you did not engage with the substance of anything I was trying to say (again, a list): my point about bad-faith actors claiming X not necessarily rendering X untrue, my point about NPOV itself unmistakably containing the clause that we should represent POVs {{tq|without editorial bias}} no matter how much bad-faith actors try to subvert it, my point about the wiki-speak ] of the word ']' not possibly being able to deplace the mainstream meaning of that word. What should I call not engaging with these substantial points and instead commenting on my personal abilities and proclivities? That's ''ad hominem'' right there. You replying that I don't know the meaning of ''ad hominem'', don't know how discussions work, etc., is only continuing along the same line.
	::Listen, this I think is the crux of the matter: it's more than okay to ''conclude'', after substantive arguments have been made on both sides, and after both sides have engaged in good faith with what the other side was trying to say, that the other side is committing themselves to some kind of logical fallacy or mistaken reasoning. What you cannot do, however, is to ''start'' with that assumption, to call it all bullshit, and at the same time ''not engage'' with anything they're trying to say. You don't show anyone anything in this way, and it would very much justified for them to conclude, as I did, that you're ]. It's not so difficult to avoid, especially when the other side ''is'' trying to substantiate what they're saying: just read it well, try to get to the core of their argument, think about it a bit, and directly reply to the argument itself. Concluding who's right and who's not can come later. Finally, even if your conclusion is that your opponent is mistaken, it's worth considering the exact reasons why you believe that to be the case. Most often you will find that they're starting from some different premise which you don't share. Only rarely will it be appropriate to call it bullshit. And even in that case, it doesn't need to be ''said'' that it's bullshit to ''show'' that it's bullshit. A large part of ] is simply to focus on the latter. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 14:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::First of all: wow! I logged in today to find 10 of those notifications at the top of the page, and some huge changes at the Evidence page at ArbCom. Also, this morning I had my second-of-two cataract surgeries, so I'm sitting here with some lovely ] drifting around my brain, and a huge blue bandage over my left eye, so I'm not thinking or seeing as clearly as I would like to do. Please don't anyone worry about me: it's no big deal and went well and I'm fine. And a lot less than the health issues some of my wiki-friends have been braving. But please just understand that in the context of my limited ability right now to respond comprehensively to everything on my talk page.
	:::Apaugasma, thank you '''very''' much for the change you made in the evidence. I am very grateful for it. I also just put on the Workshop page. I'm now vastly more optimistic (hopefully not drug-induced!) that the case will end up ok. And thanks everyone else who has commented here. (Hey, my talk page is where all the cool kids are!) I won't try to reply to everyone individually, but I'm very happy to have each of you here. --] (]) 18:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::: I'll pick and choose that for which I shall worry myself, thank you very much, dear fish. {{emoji|1F609}} Of course I will continue to be concerned for you but I'm glad everything went well and I hope your recovery is swift. --]] 19:21, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::Shall I say: here's looking at you! {{(:}} --] (]) 19:31, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::: ] {{emoji|1F49E}} --]] 19:51, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::I just made the mistake of reading ]. Yuk! Breast milk and ghee??? --] (]) 20:02, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::Hi Tryptofish, I'm doubly glad to have cheered you up on a day like this. I wish you a ]! <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 21:00, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::Thanks ''very'' much! I'm always happy when something that starts out as a heated disagreement finds its way to becoming a cordial resolution. All the best to you too. And I'm sure it ''will'' be ]. --] (]) 21:03, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::::Good to hear. I had felt sorry for invading your home for a sort of bar fight, but it seems you already have the popcorn out. --] (]) 10:01, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::Thanks! (Drinks are on me!) --] (]) 14:37, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::: I used to drink a lot and I was the opposite of a mean drunk. I still have cases of drinks that I will most likely never drink now. Couldn't drink while I was in hospital. Just haven't picked it back up since. I'll have a cup of chilled goat's milk though. --]] 14:45, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::Help yourself to the popcorn. <small>(And stay away from the breast milk and ghee.)</small>--] (]) 14:48, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::: I would never dare touch the medical necessities. Never know when you might need to help flush another cataract. --]] 14:58, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::I'd flush the folk remedies. --] (]) 15:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::: Might be original research but since I'm never going to try and add it Misplaced Pages, I've relied on quite a few "folk" remedies while living in a remote area of Alaska. Some work better than others but none of them have hurt us to my knowledge. Also, I will not be using breast milk or ghee for anything anytime soon so it's all yours. It's because I care, Tryp. --]] 15:13, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::You know, right after I posted that, I regretted that I had oversimplified the usefulness of folk remedies. I guess I'm a skeptic. (See, I brought this back around to the ArbCom topic!) But no ghee in my eyes for me. Everyone knows tartar sauce works better. --] (]) 15:35, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
			You offered a statement in an arbitration enforcement referral. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at ]. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at ]. '''Please add your evidence by 23:59, 14 December 2024 (UTC), which is when the evidence phase closes.''' You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, ]. For a guide to the arbitration process, see ]. For the Arbitration Committee, ]&nbsp;] 06:14, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
	:::{{tq|would the meaning change in any way?}} Yes, of course it would. If you had said something different, then yes, I would have responded differently. It would still have been a strawman though, because what you depicted as the point I made was not the point I made. Adding a word can turn a true statement into a false statement. See below.
			<!-- Message sent by User:SilverLocust@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_5/Update_list&oldid=1260341982 -->
	:::{{tq|but it is not in any way a ]: 'bad people' do indeed claim in bad faith that}} This is fallacious reasoning, but I don't think it has a name. In Misplaced Pages articles, using me as a source and adding the "bad people" thing to what I said would be ]. You were combining what I said with what you believe, thus making a new statement, which I did not utter and which I would refuse to sign when asked. (Replacing "bad people" with "annoying people" would change the situation only a bit, as you would have combined what I said with what I said later, still making a new statement by the nonexisting logical connection of the thing I had said and the thing I later said.) I did not say it and would not not say it, and you pretending I did is a misrepresentation. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.
	::::Going back a bit, and indenting this part more to separate it from the strawman part, my point was that the demand to "follow the evidence" itself is bad - because, as I said in the same posting, {{tq|it is better not tell scientists what they should believe, only what they should do}}, and telling people what they should or should not believe is the definition of dogma. What does it matter if a scientist believes that, for example, God created the Earth 6000 years ago in seven days, if the scientist admits there is no evidence for that? As soon as the scientist lets that belief poison his research and makes mistakes because of it, then we can castigate his mistakes - but not his belief. Having a personal bias is a normal state, not having one is impossible, and there is nothing wrong with having one. This applies even to groups of people, such as the scientific community or Misplaced Pages.
	::::In your essay ], you quote the article ], which defines bias as {{tq|disproportionately being in favor of or against something, usually in a way that is closed-minded, prejudicial, or unfair.}} Note the word "usually". Cut the "usually" part to get the general definition, and you will see that in that sense, Misplaced Pages is biased. We are disproportionately in favor of scientific explanations because reliable sources prefer them, and disproportionately against all that other stuff in ] because reliable sources frown on them. ("Disproportionally" relative to the general population, which has a different bias.) Using the word "bias" in this sense is completely legitimate. Using it in the narrower sense of the "usual" case is also completely legitimate, but declaring that the narrower sense is the only correct one is wrong.
	:::I used people you call "bad" (and I call "deluded") as examples for crying bias, as a way of saying that the same reasoning can be applied for defending noxious ideas. When a kind of reasoning is applicable for justifying false statements, that is a big hint that that kind of reasoning is not really a good idea. But you somehow seemed to have got the idea that I associated crying bias with being a bad person, or that crying bias shows that someone is a bad person, or that I am "comparing" you to "bad people", or something like that. When I call that a strawman, I am saying that your depiction of my views is at odds with my views as well as with what I said, and you have no business to contradict me and say that no, it was not a strawman, and that oh yes, my views are as you described them. You do not need to actually tear down your strawman to fulfil the definition of a strawman: if it is silly enough that the reader can easily imagine how tear it down, it is one. But you actually did tear it down: {{tq|Not everyone who affirms these almost self-evident truths is one of the bad people}} is a refutation of something I did not say.
	:::I did not {{tq|start with that assumption}}, and I did not {{tq|call it all bullshit}} ("all" being the crucial part here). I see non sequitur, and I call it out. Usually, it does not need to be explained in this level of detail because most people understand that when person A says a and person B claims that person A said b, that is a strawman. If you still do not get it, then I give up. --] (]) 10:01, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::Hob Gadling, you're failing to see the logic yourself. In such a case, it is indeed useless to argue. Something about playing chess with a pigeon. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 14:12, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::Ah, you prefer, as you put it above, to {{tq| not engage with anything they're trying to say}}, replacing actual debate with a put-down you heard in another context, which I could have applied with far better justification but refrained from using. Fine with me, it's easier to handle. Less time wasted, opinion of you confirmed. EOD, I guess. --] (]) 07:12, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::::{{buttinsky}} I have to say, a lot of this rings true. The pattern of my interactions with Apaugasma have been like him posting a 1,000 word essay on why my favourite color is "blue", and if I respond with "sorry no, it's red" then they're like ''how dare you not engage with my reasoning''! ] (]) 07:18, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::I don't say your favorite color is blue, I say that in one instance you picked blue over red. You also don't say "no, I picked red", or "look, what you think is blue is really another kind of red", you say "claiming I picked blue is dishonest and flawed". When I ask why that should be so, you say "because it's transparently false: my favorite color is red". When I then make a well-substantiated argument that, whatever your general proclivity for red, you did in fact in this instance pick blue, and say ''either engage with that in good faith, or just agree to disagree –which would be more than fine by me'' , you come following me around to tell me I should stop ''producing rubbish arguments'', and now that ''I'''m unreasonable and can't agree to disagree. Like one more pigeon strutting around. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 14:08, 26 January 2022 (UTC) <small>There it is, now you too can admonish me for stooping down to your own level, and you would be right. I'd still like to respectfully agree to disagree though, if ever that would be an option.</small>
	* Hmmm. Apaugasma seems to have disagreements with Roxy, Hob, and with my essay at ]. I wonder what the common factor is? Possibly related: --] (]) 13:23, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	*:{{re|Guy Macon Alternate Account}} please look . See how bias works out in wrong ways? I'm a serious, mainstream historian, and so is {{noping|Ajrocke}} (= ; look at what he says in that RfC). No more aspersions please. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 14:12, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	:At this point, this discussion on my talk is increasingly becoming a content dispute (with some unhappiness about the content spilling over into the conduct of editors towards one another). That's fine to have here, I'm easy, but I would hope that ArbCom will stay out of it. --] (]) 14:40, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	::Thanks for <s>not throwing us out</s> hosting us here! Today, I went for the pithy drink. Cheers! <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 15:22, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::Careful, you thould know that ith dangerouth to drink pith. --] (]) 15:36, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::I was pinged but didn't have the time to read all of the rest yet. I'm not really interested in debating this, but my point was that it was empty argumentation and this more or less confirms it: "I'm not arguing that this premise isn't true". To me the above is a philosophical uncertainty argument to entertain the possibility that something for which there is no scientific evidence may perhaps still exist at some level and coming from a religious background I've seen many similar arguments. And personal convictions are fine, the important is to not let that interfere with WP editing (like discarding ] where relevant). —]] – 06:07, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
	::::Thanks, {{u|PaleoNeonate}}, that's a great answer! {{p|teeth}} Let me just state that I think you're turning things on their heads when saying that ''questioning'' the premise that only things for which there is scientific existence really exist is the special ('philosophical uncertainty') argument: rather, ''assuming'' the truth of that premise is a special position, i.e., the ] one, which is ''not'' shared by a majority of philosophers today (see ]), and which is ''not'' taken for granted by non-philosophical reliable sources. For example, Ernst ''does not'' grant the premise when he that the existence of qi cannot be disproven (please note that if the premise is granted, it can ''easily'' be disproven: if there is no scientific evidence for qi, and if all things for which there is no scientific evidence do not exist, then necessarily qi does not exist). As you indicate, anyone believing in God already would not be able to agree with the truth of the premise. Neither would most people believing in ] (i.e., that good and evil really exist). It's simply not widely granted, and it really are the personal convictions of editors here which conflict with that. It should go without saying that following sources like ] in not making logical positivist assumptions does not put us in any danger of discarding ]: that's just a red herring.
	::::But please ''do'' feel free to disagree with how solid or mainstream the logical positivist premise is! It's already so great that you at least recognize its basic logic! You can't believe how happy you've made me with that! On a related note, {{u|Hob Gadling}} has posted a on his talk page to which I am ''only'' allowed to respond if I admit he's right. {{p|surprise}} Would you please take a look at it? If I were allowed to, I would tell him that what he says is not logically equivalent is indeed not logically equivalent. Instead, it is contradictory, which is what ''I'' said (], anyone?). Note that the second statement there ('Qi does not exist') needs to be read ] as 'Qi necessarily does not exist' or 'it's a proven fact that Qi does not exist' for it to be truly contradictory with 'the non-existence of qi cannot be proven', but that ] is pretty much assumed in an affirmative statement that is supposed to be factual (i.e., when we on WP say 'X does not exist' we mean 'it is a verifiable, proven fact that X does not exist', i.e., 'it necessarily does not exist'). Since Hob reacts rather badly every time I explain he's made a goof, I would seriously appreciate it if someone could just briefly confirm that it really is a goof, and that I'm not, as , insane just for being conversant with basic logic.
	::::I think that how widely granted the positivist premise (i.e., that only things for which there is scientific evidence really exist) actually is, is an ''excellent'' point to disagree on. We could just admit that more than one view on this is possible without getting uncivil about it (cf. the title of this thread), which also means we could stop arguing about it and finally leave Tryptofish's talk page in peace. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 11:04, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
			==Plant cognition==
	{{od}}
	And here we see the basic problem. Apaugasma has a POV that is held by some philosophers (and rejected by others). There is no evidence that Apaugasma is wrong, crazy, holding the POV for ulterior motives, etc. However -- and this is a key point -- '''Apaugasma's POV, while welcome in Misplaced Pages's philosophy and logic articles, is fundamentally incompatible with the overwhelming consensus among Misplaced Pages editors regarding how we should handle fringe views, pseudoscience, and skepticism.'''
			I noticed you left some comments 11 years ago on the ] talk-page. I would like to improve the article. The field of plant cognition/plant intelligence/plant neurobiology is not accepted by most plant scientists and I do not believe it should be mentioned in detail on the plant perception article. The idea of plant cognition or intelligence shouldn't be confused with mainstream plant physiology. In the "plant intelligence" section on the plant perception article I believe that much of it should be deleted and some of it merged to ]. ] (]) 01:50, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
	Consider the following quotes:
			:Yes, this stuff has been and still is on my watchlist, so I actually saw some of your edits related to the cognition page yesterday. As I started to write my answer to you, I looked at the ] page, and saw that you have just nominated it for AfD. As far as I'm concerned (and keep in mind that I'm a neuroscientist in real life), the idea that plants have "cognition" is nonsense, so my inclination is to merge the cognition page into the paranormal page, sort of the opposite of what you have proposed. I'm not going to nominate the cognition page for deletion – yet. But I think the physiology page should be purely RS physiology, and the paranormal page should be repository for all of the nonsense. --] (]) 19:43, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
			::The field of "plant neurobiology" or "plant intelligence" is being led by ], František Baluška, ], Peter V. MInorsky and Paco Calvo, apart from Calvo they are all botanists, and they have easily published between 40 and 60 peer reviewed papers on plant neurobiology. The term is misleading so some of them now just use the term "plant intelligence". They have had a lot of media exposure. I agree with you that what they are promoting is nonsense but there is no referencing classifying their ideas as paranormal. The paranormal thing was only Cleve Backster. This other group of researchers are promoting a fringe cellular consciousness model but it should be noted that many of those researchers have also published sound plant physiology work and they do not make recourse to the paranormal. They have dressed up their research with false terminology to sell books. The problem is that there are no good references on paranormal plant perception, which doesn't exist. The only referencing that exists on that is criticism of Backster's experiments. There are many sources on plant neurobiology including plenty of criticism. Plant perception (paranormal) doesn't exist, it's just another name for the Backster effect. I agree that it would be good to have all the nonsense on a single page to separate it from plant physiology. Is there an alternative article title we can use?
			::Regarding plant cognition, someone has created a category for that and put it all over the place . I am open to name changes but I doubt the plant cognition article would be deleted at an afd as there is too much sourcing on it. I think we just need one large article with all of the nonsense on, that's why I was keen to put it all over at plant cognition. ] (]) 23:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::PER WP:RS, the only title suggestion I have is to rename the "plant cognition" article plant intelligence, as that is the term most of the modern sources use. ] (]) 00:12, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Well, I guess that following ] has a logic to it. But, because this discussion is already happening simultaneously in multiple places (AfD, talk page merge discussion), it's probably best if we keep it there, rather than here on my talk. --] (]) 22:53, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
			== Fish and brains ==
	Apaugasma:
			Two of your fave topics! ] (]) 20:44, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
	:"The idea that reality is exclusively located outside of the human mind, for example, is a typical skeptic/positivist premise. I'm not arguing that this premise isn't true, I'm not even arguing that it is not held to be true by a majority, I'm merely arguing that it's not one of those things which are ''near-universally'' held to be ''indisputably'' true (like, e.g., logic, mathematics, or even empirical facts as induced from repeated sensory input)."
			:Still no article on the ], and although it is purely speculative, one wonders if an article could be created. If not, could it be discussed in a parent article? Thanks. ] (]) 21:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
	Apaugasma again:
			::: – ] (]) 04:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
	:"The source says {{tq|the existence of qi can neither be proven nor disproven}}. If you make of that {{tq|sources say qi doesn't exist}}, you're misrepresenting them, right here. If you can't see that 'qi does not exist' is in direct contradiction with 'the existence of qi cannot be disproven', then ''you'' have a serious problem with understanding logic. It would appear that you have."
			::::Thanks for that, Epipelagic, and good to see you around. I figured that it sounded, well, fishy. Just making sure that {{u|Viriditas}} notices that. --] (]) 20:12, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I read it and acknowledged it on Epipelagic's talk page yesterday. You should put their talk page on your watchlist. ] (]) 21:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Actually, I should be making my watchlist a lot smaller. --] (]) 20:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{cot|]}}
			:::::::Why was the neuroscientist accused of ]? Because they like to examine the inner workings of the mind. ] (]) 20:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::Get yer mind out of yer belly button! --] (]) 20:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::I screwed that up. It should have read "their mind". ] (]) 20:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::No worries, probably attributable to brain microbes. ] --] (]) 21:03, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Do you have any favorite comedians? Asking for a reason... ] (]) 21:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::There are many that I like, hard to pick just a few. I'm curious about the reason. --] (]) 21:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::It's a surprise. Any comedic writers stand out? ] (]) 21:25, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::Uh-oh. I sense this is leading to a punch line. OK, then, I'll mess with you and say (insincerely) ]. --] (]) 21:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::No punch line. So the opposite of Carrot Top? Gotcha!
			:::::::::::::::* ]
			:::::::::::::::* ]
			:::::::::::::::* ]
			:::::::::::::::* ]
			:::::::::::::::* ]
			:::::::::::::::* ]
			:::::::::::::::* ]
			:::::::::::::::* ]
			:::::::::::::::* ]
			:::::::::::::::* ]
			:::::::::::::::If you had to choose two? ] (]) 21:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::Well, if I'm gonna pick from within that list, I'll pick C.K. (yes I know about the controversy) and Seinfeld. --] (]) 21:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::That joke C.K. tells about the boat left me in stitches. ] (]) 21:46, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::Um, I wish you a speedy recovery? --] (]) 21:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::The doc says I have ten seconds left to live. Strange doctor. Got their medical degree out of a cracker jack box. ] (]) 22:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::If you're still here to read this, the same doc says you have to stop masturbating. So he can examine you. --] (]) 22:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::I just found out; that was no doctor. It was an elevator salesman. What a downer. ] (]) 22:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::::Can you get it back up? --] (]) 22:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::::::::::Did I say elevator? I meant enveloper. Currently stuck in a Möbius loop. See you on the flip side. ] (]) 22:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::::::::::Are you taking me into a ]? --] (]) 22:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			{{cob}}
			::<small>"Eat them up !" (?) ] (]) 22:34, 2 December 2024 (UTC)</small>
			:::{{small|Still the ] of all time.}} ] (]) 22:37, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::<small>My personal fave: ]. --] (]) 22:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)</small>
			::::My serious answer: This sounds odd to me, because of the immunulogical implications. I'd want to wait until there is more source material before starting any content here. --] (]) 22:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
			* I can attest that I've met a few people with nothing ''but'' a microbiome in their heads, but unless & until I write up and publish a case study or two, that would be ]. Also, I'm pretty sure I can find a weirder video than that, though it wouldn't be something you could watch at work... ] <small><small>]</small></small> 15:20, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:I agree entirely. I also remember you and I discussing a music video of Sponge Bob doing heavy metal. (To make it unwatchable at work, you'd probably have to make it Sponge Bob Leather Pants. Yes, I know I'm sick in the head.) --] (]) 23:47, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
			::: {{tq|Yes, I know I'm sick in the head.}} Likely due to ] setting up shop in your brain. How did they get there? Yeah, you got it...vaginal seeding. ] (]) 02:58, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::And here I thought your username was a reference to the band... I can't say I'm disappointed, though. I've always been more of an ] guy. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 14:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::I mean, I could tell you what I've been up to lately. I bed that would make you feel totally ]. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 14:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::{{small|I had a packet of ] once, but sadly they ]. ] (]) 14:29, 4 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			:::::Aww, man, that ]! ] <small><small>]</small></small> 14:38, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Now I realize where I went wrong in life. I should have had a worm in my brain, instead. Then, I'd be in charge of all of HHS. --] (]) 00:26, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Yet another example of ] at work, right there. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 15:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Sorry mate, we're fresh out of ]. Could you make do with ]? ] (]) 15:17, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::]. ] (]) 15:30, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::{{small|Beats ], I guess. ] (]) 15:36, 5 December 2024 (UTC)}}
			*What about the ]? ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 20:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:That's for real. Just so long as those gut-bugs stay out of one's brain (and don't eat RFK's). --] (]) 20:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::Don't be bacilly. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 23:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::I'll be ] not to. --] (]) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
			== ] updates ==
	<s>Tryptofish</s> Alexbrn: <small><sup>(Note to self: next time, smoke crack '''after'' editing Misplaced Pages...)</sup></small>
			You are receiving this message because you are on ] for ]. The drafters note that the scope of the case was somewhat unclear, and clarify that the scope is {{tqq|The interaction of named parties in the ] topic area and examination of the ] process that led to ] ] to ]}}. Because this was unclear, two changes are being made:
	:"No, my editing was faithful and wise. Unicorns don't exist; neither does qi. Quacks insist otherwise, and base treatments on what they say and charge money for it (and do harm). Misplaced Pages calls out the woo to satisfy NPOV, using appropriate sources. Your invocation of a notion of "verifiable non-existsence" in this context is yet more nonsense, of the kind we hear continually from ] editors (Hmm, perhaps water has a ] but science hasn't yet found a yet to show it... You can't say this is bogus - respect my reasoning! etc! )"
			First, '''the Committee will accept submissions for new parties for the next three days''', until '''23:59, 10 December 2024 (UTC)'''. Anyone who wishes to suggest a party to the case may do so by creating a new section on ], providing a reason with ] as to why the user should be added, and notifying the user. After the three-day period ends, no further submission of parties will be considered except in exceptional circumstances. Because the Committee only hears disputes that have failed to be resolved by the usual means, proposed parties should have been recently taken to AE/AN/ANI, and either not sanctioned, or incompletely sanctioned. If a proposed party has not been taken to AE/AN/ANI, evidence is needed as to why such an attempt would have been ineffective.
	Compare the above discussion with the source they are both talking about:
			Second, the ] '''has been extended by a week''', and will now close at '''23:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)'''. For the Arbitration Committee, <b>]]</b>&nbsp;(]&nbsp;•&nbsp;he/they) 03:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
	:"Concepts such as the qi of Chinese traditional medicine are myths which enjoy the same status as religious faiths. Believers cling to the myth despite the evidence, reinterpret the myth to suit the evidence, or lie about the evidence to support the myth. Even though the existence of qi can neither be proven or disproven, the related concept of a meridian system and acupoints does generate testable hypotheses..."
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			== Nadolig Llawen ==
	Whether any of us like it or not, the Misplaced Pages community has come to a consensus. That consensus is that we apply ] to all ] views. We treat ], ], ], ], ], etc. (but not mainstream unprovable views such as ]) as being nonexistent even though nobody has ''actually'' proved that Russell's teapot doesn't exist or that all birds in the United States weren't exterminated by the government between 1959 and 1971 and replaced by drones.
	An interesting sidenote is ''how'' Misplaced Pages treats things that (according to our consensus) do not exist despite some philosophers correctly saying that we can't prove that. Our ] article says "The existence of Qi has not been proven scientifically" but is our article on ] we say "In physics, the fundamental interactions, also known as fundamental forces, are the interactions that do not appear to be reducible to more basic interactions. There are four fundamental interactions known to exist... Some scientists hypothesize that a fifth force might exist, but these hypotheses remain speculative". We do '''not''' list Qi or anything similar as being a possible ]. (If present, a fifth fundamental force would most likely be 1,000-100,000 times weaker than gravity over the range 1-1000 meters. Otherwise we would have detected it already.)
			<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:red; background-color:yellow; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]]]<br/>
	So, do we need to do anything about Apaugasma's POV being fundamentally opposed to Misplaced Pages's POV on fringe subjects? If {{they were|Apaugasma}} being a jerk about it (edit warring, flooding talk pages, ect.) the answer would be yes, but I have seen zero misbehavior on Apaugasma's part, so it seems to me that nothing needs to be done here other than not responding, as Hob has decided to do.
			<big>'''Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda.'''<br/>Happy Christmas and Best wishes for a peaceful 2025:</big> performed by the ].<br />(], ] folk carol)
			----
			</div> ] (]) 09:06, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Thanks, Martin, and the same to you (which I can safely say, not knowing if I can trust the translation.) And stop getting me into trouble with those ]. --] (]) 20:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			::It's all relative, you know, dude. As ] beg to . ]] <small>(to my mind the video has a lot of ] about it!) N.B. Sophia doesn't actually appear in this one, sorry.</small> ] (]) 21:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			*Tryptofish wishes to post this disclaimer. The views expressed by other editors on this talk page represent the mental states of those other editors, and have not necessarily been preapproved by Tryptofish or by any other aquatic lifeform. Or even ]. --] (]) 21:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
			**<small>Or even even ]. ] (]) 21:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC) </small>
			==Joyous Season==
	''''''. --] (]) 15:04, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
			<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:green; background-color:lightyellow; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">] ]{{Center|]}}
			I wish that you may have a very Happy Holiday! {{smiley|christmas}} Whether you celebrate ], ], ], ], ] or your hemisphere's ], this is a special time of year for almost everyone! May the New Year provide you joy and fulfillment! Thanks for everything you do here. ] (]) 16:59, 22 December 2024 (UTC) <br />
	:I see two potential problems with considering "the existence of qi can neither be proven nor disproven" and "sources say qi doesn't exist" equivalent: the first has no mention of sources, but also, closer would be "there is no scientific evidence for qi/that qi exists". Then of course, if it really "cannot be proven" and "cannot be disproven" it means that it is an untestable hypothesis, not falsifiable. This suggests that it is a religious doctrine, outside of the realm of science. Then this may or may not be the only definition or completely correct: if there are claims about its connection to the body, science could legitimately attempt to determine if it can be useful, detected, exploited (like with a "metaphysical meridians map", and recording statistics of effects/recovery between various methods used on a population, etc.) if the latter fails, the premise of the system's existence and/or benefits were not met (falsified hypothesis or perhaps flawed metaphysics or pseudoscience, something else claimed to be science-like). If it succeeds, science is advancing and mainstream medicine can be expected to eventually understand it better and integrate it... —]] – 20:34, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::Any reply here will be reverted immediately. I mean it. --] (]) 21:00, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
	:::: —]] – 02:24, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
			<small>Spread the holiday cheer by adding {{]:]}} to your fellow editors' talk pages</small>.
	::I'm not going to hat this, but please see the notice at the top of this talk section. And Guy Macon, you attributed a quote to me that was said by someone else. --] (]) 16:53, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
			{{clear}}
	:::Fixed the error (Note to self: next time, smoke crack '''after''' editing Misplaced Pages...), dropping the subject. --] (]) 17:12, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
			</div>
	::::{{(:}} --] (]) 17:15, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
	:On a mildly related note, I managed to take a bunch of blurry pictures of black helicopters circling around the apartment building I lived in, and landing on the rooftops and parking lots of nearby buildings a decade or so back. Because it was dark, and the helicopters were moving pretty quickly most of the time, all of the pictures came out like something you'd see in the ]. ] (]) 15:09, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
	::] —]] – 20:46, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
			] (]) 16:59, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
	== Discretionary sanctions topic area changes ==
			:Thanks so much, and the same to you! --] (]) 19:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
			== Saved you a click ==
	In a process that began last year with ], the Arbitration Committee is evaluating ] (DS) in order to improve it. A larger package of reforms is slated for sometime this year. From the work done so far, it became clear a number of areas may no longer need DS or that some DS areas may be overly broad.
			]
			Happy Holidays! ] (]) 07:01, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Thanks, ViridiSanta! --] (]) 21:13, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
			== Sensory compensation hypothesis ==
	The topics proposed for revocation are:
	*Senkaku islands
	*Waldorf education
	*Ancient Egyptian race controversy
	*Scientology
	*Landmark worldwide
			See ]. There's a lot of material in the sources for a new article. I was surprised we don't have anything already? ] (]) 21:38, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
	The topics proposed for a rewording of what is covered under DS are:
			:We do have a significant amount of related content: ], ], ], ], ], and to some degree ]. That's what I could find after a quick search. You might want to check the categories these pages are in, to see if there are other related pages. You can decide whether you want a standalone page for the hypothesis, ''per se'', or whether it should be a section in one or more of these existing pages. --] (]) 23:22, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
	*India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan
	*Armenia/Azerbaijan
			== Is the doctor in? ==
	Additionally any Article probation topics not already revoked are proposed for revocation.
			]
	Community feedback is invited and welcome at ]. --] (]) 16:59, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
			How is the New Year treating you? Are you staying warm? I need the opinion of a neuroscientist. No, I don't have a fear of cats, and I can fly a kite just fine. My problem has to do with the word ]. Yeah, I know, it's weird. If I don't use the word for, let's say, a month or so, I lose the ability to instantly recall it, and I have to think deeply, perhaps 10-15 minutes or more, before I can recall it again. This has been going on with just this word for perhaps a decade. I don't seem to have this problem with any other word. What do you think is causing this, and how long do I have left? Signed, C. Brown. ] (]) 23:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
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			:] is a hell of a drug ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 23:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::<small>Some people might think I'm anti-semantic. --] (]) 23:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
			:::There should be a "laugh" or "😂" button next to the "thank" button. Though I'm sure it would get some creative abuse. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 00:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{ec}} Scientifically, I'm not aware of any memory issue that would involve only one single word. Never heard of that. How about ]? If you're thinking deeply about it for 10–15 minutes, maybe it's just something you've gotten focused on, but not anything of health significance. (The word might come to you more easily if you put it out of your mind, instead of "working" on it.) But I'm not gonna practice medicine without a license (and, for that matter, without an MD). If you're concerned about it, ask a doctor. (I hope you have good insurance. I hope everyone does.)
			:About how I'm doing, I'm OK. I'm still not particularly feeling it, as to content work. --] (]) 23:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Funny thing about coriander. Whenever I try to think about cilantro, I come up with ] and ], but never cilantro. It's like that one word is blocked for me. ] (]) 00:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I don't know if this will work, but I know of a memory trick that is based upon associating the thing you want to remember with something else, that isn't really related, but that might help remind you. Maybe something like "The fact that I can't remember it is '''silly'''." And "silly" sounds like the beginning of "silly-antro". --] (]) 00:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Try this ] suggestion: go to the top of the tallest stairwell you know and yell "CILANTRO" then drop something weird down to the bottom. Maybe an old appliance that you were going to replace, like this microwave I have to toss because my new microwave is an air fryer. Inside, pack it with fresh green cilantro and a bit of lime. Then, go out for Peruvian food and eat as much green salsa as you can. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 00:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Along similar lines (lateral lines?), I suggest that you give something the name "Cilantro." A tree in your yard, the neighbor's kid, or...a pet fish? ] (]) 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::That's the best idea I've seen. I will try that. ] (]) 00:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Ok, I'm going to name my citrus tree "cilantro". I say citrus, because I haven't identified what kind it is just yet, but I think it's a lemon tree. ] (]) 01:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Oh yeah, I use those things all the time. It's a variation on the ], ]s, etc. I use them to memorize shopping lists like this: Bees buzzing for bread, cats meowing for cantaloupe, dogs barking for dijon mustard, neanderthals grunting for naan, orangutans hooting for oranges, parrots squawking for persimmons, Talaxians cooking tomatoes, etc. The issue is that when I try to come up with cilantro, I think primarily of coriander and secondarily of related words like curcumin. It's like I can't encode cilantro. ] (]) 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I just thought of something else. Since cilantro is pungent (more so when you are working with it, with the smell filling the room after chopping it up), and there is a strong correlation between olfactory memory and long term memories, I wonder if the smell of cilantro is related to something in my past that was traumatic. ] (]) 00:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Not as traumatic as the re-education camp RFK will throw you in for smoking too much of that cilly cilantro. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 04:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Plot twist: I’m already in the camp. This is all just a fantasy I’ve created to pass the time. ] (]) 07:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{tps}} For what it's worth, I had this exact problem today where I couldn't remember the word cilantro, and eventually had to settle on coriander knowing that isn't the name I'd normally use. Cilantro though just wouldn't come to me no matter how hard I tried. ] (]) 04:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{cot|title="The Cilantro Paradox", by ChatGPT}}
			::Dr. Iris Kline frowned at her screen. The data was perfect—too perfect. It was the kind of perfection that whispered to a physicist, "You made a mistake." She leaned closer, the glow of her monitor outlining her face in ghostly blue. The experiment at CERN that morning had been ambitious, even by her standards: a collision of particles at an energy level just shy of the Planck scale. Officially, they were probing the quantum foam, searching for anomalies that might hint at extra dimensions. Unofficially? She had wanted to make a ripple in reality itself.
			::And now, it seemed, she had.
			::A notification chimed on her phone.
			::BREAKING NEWS: TRUMP ANNOUNCES SECOND PRESIDENTIAL TERM.
			::Iris blinked. "Second?" she muttered. As far as she remembered, Donald Trump had been a businessman and reality TV star, not a political figure. She brushed it off as fatigue—she hadn't slept in 36 hours—and returned to her data. But something gnawed at her, a faint tickle at the edge of memory, like trying to recall a dream already half-forgotten.
			::—
	== A barnstar for you! (5)==
			::Dr. Nadia Rivera knew something was wrong the moment she tried to order lunch. Standing in line at the hospital cafeteria, she stared at the menu screen above the counter. "What’s the garnish on the soup today?" she asked.
	{| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;"
			::The cashier’s smile froze.
	|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ]
			::"The what?"
	|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Barnstar of Good Humor'''
			::"The green herb," Nadia said, gesturing vaguely. "You know, the one that tastes… soapy to some people?"
	|-
			::The cashier's brow furrowed. "Parsley?"
	|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | made me smile. ] ] ] 20:55, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
			::"No, not parsley," Nadia said, frustrated. "It’s…" She trailed off. The word was there, right on the tip of her tongue. She could feel it. But every time she tried to grab it, it dissolved, slipping through her mental grasp like water through fingers.
	|}
			::She returned to her office unsettled. A neuroscientist specializing in memory disorders, she recognized the symptoms of aphasia, but this felt different. It wasn’t that she couldn’t remember the word; it was as though the word had never existed.
	:Thanks! I, for one, could use a bit of wiki-humor these days. --] (]) 20:58, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
			::To test herself, she called a colleague, Dr. Patel.
	::How about this one: ? (I didn't use rollback, just so I could leave a summary!) --] (]) 21:54, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
			::"Quick question," she said after some small talk. "What’s that herb some people hate because it tastes soapy?"
	:::Okay, that got a chuckle. {{smiley}} ] ] ] 01:45, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
			::Dr. Patel laughed. "Sounds like you’ve been hanging out with the culinary snobs again. But I don’t know… Is that a real thing?"
			::The pit in Nadia’s stomach deepened. "Never mind," she said and hung up.
			::She turned to her computer, typing into Google: "herb tastes soapy." Nothing.
			::The search engine offered "parsley" and "dill" but no sign of… whatever she was looking for. It wasn’t just that people couldn’t remember it. The word itself had vanished.
			::—
	== Latest Bilby comment ==
	{{multiple image|image1=Lol2.gif|perrow=1|total_width=130|footer=ArbCom --Tryptofish}}
	Should I respond to him somehow at the workshop phase before it is too late? His remarks are most unfair, referring as they do to a comment I made regarding a now topic banned editor taken well out of context, in the discussion that led to the topic ban? -] ] 13:32, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:As I recall from the original context you were going to "confront" this guy merely by meeting him in person at a WMF event, but this got twisted in (some ridiculous) evidence into sounding like you were going to duff him up in a dark alley. My eyebrow is raised. ] (]) 17:06, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	::Sorry, by the time I logged in and saw this, it is too late. I read that comment, and I dislike it, obviously. (It's a classic case of waiting until the phase is about to close, so that there won't be time to refute it, a common trick in ArbCom cases. Heck, I've even done it myself. It's also why I hoped that you would have done more to refute evidence, before the last minute – but that's water under the bridge.) But it's just his opinion, and not binding on the Arbs. Also, his saying that doesn't blank out what I and others have already said, so the Arbs have heard both sides. I'm loathe to attempt any predictions, but from what I've read from what the Drafting Arbs have posted, they seem to be leaning against sanctions for individual editors. Now, the only thing to do is to wait for them to post the ]. If they don't propose any sanctions against you, and no other Arbs raise the possibility during the Arbs' discussions, then you will be out of the woods. If they ''do'' propose something against you based on that incident, there is still the possibility of commenting about it on the PD talk page. --] (]) 17:27, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::Thanks Tryptofish. Alex assessment is about correct. The original statement was, if I recall correctly, a joke during an AfD discussion, and what Bilby refers to is a reference to discussion in the Topic-banning of said editor. The workshop phase is totally opaque to me btw. So, I've got my spiderman suit round my ankles and I'm lubed up ready. ] ] 17:39, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	::::Please find the diff of your original joke, and the diff from the topic-ban discussion, and post the diffs for me here. Also, was there anything about your interactions with that editor that occurred by email or something similar that was not posted on-site? (Also, I looked in more detail at what Bilby posted and where he posted it, and it was in regard of a proposal to give you a warning. If the Arbs decide simply to warn you not to do it again, that would be perfectly acceptable, and you should just accept it.) --] (]) 17:45, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::This also outlines one of the problems that seems to happen at the Workshop phase. When the (not familiar enough with the interactions to assess ]) only proposes one Finding of Fact for Sgerbic, but goes on to propose remedies for a bunch of others without any evidence/diffs, that proposal should be outright dismissed. I wouldn't count on that level of bureaucracy always being followed through though. You never know what might "surprise" you. Either way, it just makes it really hard to follow for those of us with very limited time, especially when you have others proposing FOF's without any diffs at all. ] (]) 18:01, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::No emails. social media, letters, subspace messages, semaphore or telephone. I dont do off-wiki. The dramah discussion was the ARS one that led to two topic bans. Was rather unpleasant, and I referred to them as Project ARSehole, and ran the idea of topic bans up the flagpole before anybody else. I can probably find that, but as to the original, well I'll try, but my search-fu has poor rating. ] ] 18:11, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::: I don't believe there should ever be a case where anyone can make a claim that can't be addressed directly. There should be one "untimed down" so to speak. So long as the response sticks to the comments made and doesn't stray from them then it should be allowed. You can even put a word restriction on it. Waiting until just before the close, if in fact that was done purposefully, seems like a dirty tactic and antithetical to the intent of the overall process. No offense, Tryp, you know I love ya, for a fish human thingy anyway. :) --]] 18:26, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::I dont know what "untimed down" means ! -] ] 18:29, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::: {{u|Roxy the dog}}, It's just a term used in silly American football (sorry football fans). I grew up on the ''real'' football. I just means you should be given a chance to respond within reason and under possibly limited circumstances but giving you a chance to address it with, hopefully, diffs or links. Perhaps not in your case but the thought in general. --]] 18:33, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::When I did it, it was in a good cause, so there (and I did it to reply to someone, not to bring up something new). Roxy, I was there for the ARS stuff, and I went back and found and bookmarked those discussions, but I don't know about the AfD. I found your comment, and it is so clearly obvious that you weren't threatening anything for real, that... omg. On the other hand, calling other people ARS = arse, isn't going to get you any friends at ArbCom. --] (]) 18:38, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::I am grateful for the direct and straightforward nature of your advice, no pulled punches. Tis what I expected when I asked you in the first place. -] ] 18:52, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Because I'm a glutton for punishment, I went back through all of the AfDs you participated in, back to December 2020, and I didn't find it. The only significant interactions are , and . Would I be correct that it was more than a year ago? --] (]) 19:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::: Oh, I will so stick out my tongue at you so don't make me, Tryp. I'm sure you had a good reason. ;) Roxy, I remember reading the ARS AN/I case and I found the comment in question too. Obviously you weren't threatening anything. Was the comment uncivil? Yeah, I think so but I've also seen way worse than that and what I would consider actually threatening and they didn't even get so much as a trip to the dramah boards over it. I don't believe you should get sanctioned for that alone but I avoid ArbCom as a rule due to the unpredictability and I have placed a restriction on myself from responding at AN (tempted to extend that to even reading it). --]] 19:09, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::OK, I looked at the Evidence page for the ArbCom case, and the only diff about this was from FeydHuxtable's evidence, and that's the diff from the ANI about ARS. Whatever was at the earlier AfD is not entered as evidence in the case, and it must not have been particularly recent, so we can assume that it will be out-of-scope for anything ArbCom will do. If necessary, it will be a matter of clarifying the ANI remark on the PD talk page, and we can cross that bridge if and when we come to it. --] (]) 19:12, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::ArbCom cases needed to be whittled down to ''Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Decision (Talk)''. All the formalities, $10 terminology, and overall approach takes forever and explains why these cases take so darn long. It goes beyond tedious and makes it seem like someone's about to get a lethal injection, and that includes anyone who acted in like-kind either with or against the accused. How is "culling the herd" a remedy? ] ] ] ] 19:13, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::First of all, dogs move in packs, not herds (and fish go to schools). Secondly, I'm actually a big believer that workshops are a net positive, so long as the Arbs don't let themselves get duped. But that's a disagreement for another occasion, so I'd like to wind this discussion down, and wait for the PD. --] (]) 19:18, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::: {{u|Atsme}}, I still like the approach I adopted best...''Don't''! I love this community and I love editing as I can and discussing edits and this idea of working together to build a community to form a consensus but it is so not worth stressing over to me. Tryp has been outstanding through this and Roxy, I might add, you have been so amazing considering the circumstances. I don't think I could have done this nor would I want to, tbh. ''Unwinding'' --]] 19:24, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::<small>Tryp has been out standing in the rain. --] (]) 19:32, 8 February 2022 (UTC)</small>
	::::::::::::::::<small>You'll never have that recipe again. -] ] 19:36, 8 February 2022 (UTC)</small>
	:::::::::::::::::<small>I don't think that I can take it. --] (]) 19:41, 8 February 2022 (UTC)</small>
	::::::::::::::::::<small>A ] ].--]] 19:42, 8 February 2022 (UTC)</small>
	:::::::::::::::::::<small>] --] (]) 19:46, 8 February 2022 (UTC)</small>
	::::::::::::::::::::<small><small>For all the young-uns who aren't familiar with it, the dog and the fish are riffing on . --] (]) 19:55, 8 February 2022 (UTC)</small></small>
	::::::::::::::::::::<small>And it took so long to bake it. --] (]) 19:57, 8 February 2022 (UTC)</small>
	::::::::::::::::::{{ping|Bishzilla}} I found ], just for you! --] (]) 20:10, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
			::By evening, Nadia had pieced together enough anecdotal evidence to convince her she wasn’t imagining things. Other doctors, patients, even her barista—no one could remember the word. Worse, the recipes she’d scrolled through earlier seemed subtly altered, their ingredients lists lacking the thing she knew should be there. The reality of it made her dizzy.
	== Cladogram ==
			::She went home and poured herself a drink. That was when she saw the notification on her phone: CERN DISCOVERS QUANTUM ANOMALY.
			::Her heart skipped a beat. The headline reminded her of the articles she’d read years ago about particle accelerators potentially creating "false vacuum" events or destabilizing the fabric of spacetime. Irrational as it seemed, she wondered if… no. Impossible.
			::But curiosity gnawed at her. She clicked the article, skimmed it, then found herself searching for the name of the lead researcher: Dr. Iris Kline. By midnight, she’d tracked down Iris’s email and fired off a message:
			::"Dear Dr. Kline, my name is Dr. Nadia Rivera, a neuroscientist at St. James Hospital. Something very unusual is happening, and I suspect your recent experiment may be related. May we speak?"
			::—
	Any ideas as to what the royal blue clade in actually represents? I think maybe it's grouping them by genetic commonalities within that group, and that they share some behavioral traits and physical characteristics, and maybe also share the same or similar geographic origins? ] ] ] 18:22, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
	:I'd be able to give a much more helpful answer if I could see the context of that image, like what paper or study it was a part of, and whether there is an image caption or some explanatory text. But based on what I see there, it is ''probably'' about DNA sequencing, and showing the amount of similarity of the DNA sequence between different dog breeds. So each color probably represents a group with highly similar (homologous) gene sequences (and it's pretty obvious that it sort-of matches with groups like Herding Group, Working Group, Sporting Group, and so on). In other words, the dogs with the same colors are the ones that are most closely related to one another. But it '''doesn't''', that I can see, tell you which came first or which was descended from the other. Those brackets with the yellow, black, and star-shaped symbols probably represent the amount of DNA sequence similarity between the two breeds. So those brackets for 90–100% show that the two breeds are ''very'' similar genetically, and those are mostly within each color group. The brackets for 50–69% are the least similar. (That said, when I look closely, I'm not exactly sure what's going on with those bracket symbols.) However, a ] does not always have to be based on DNA sequence, and sometimes they are based on morphology (physical characteristics). --] (]) 19:07, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
	::My apologies - I thought the cladogram linked back to ] ] ] 22:38, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::No problem. I've given it a quick read now, and what I said above is pretty much correct. It's primarily based on DNA sequence. They took ] sequences for each breed, and determined similarities and differences. So basically that cladogram shows breeds that were very similar in their genes close together, and ones that were more dissimilar farther apart. When they assigned the colors to different groups, they also took ] into account: things like how kennel clubs group breeds based on looks and behaviors. It turns out (not surprisingly) that the ] and phenotype usually match up pretty well. They also found a few outliers.
	:::Since I'm making a wild guess that you are particularly interested in the Staffordshire Bull Terrier ''(wink)'', the breeds that are very close to it are: Bull Terrier, Miniature Bull Terrier, and American Staffordshire Terrier. They each differ by just a tiny amount in their DNA. Almost, but not quite, the same are: Mastiff and Bull Mastiff, going in one direction, and Boxer, Bulldog, Dogue de Bordeaux (I'd like a half-glass of that one), Boston Terrier, and French Bulldog, going in the other direction. So those are breeds that probably share a lot of ancestry. However, there is no information in this about who was the parent or offspring of whom. It supports the fact that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a distinct and identifiable breed. It says nothing about former names by which the breed was known. For example, it shows that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the Bull Terrier are very closely related, but it's ''silent'' on whether Staffordshire Bull Terriers were or were not ''called'' Bull Terriers at various times in the past. --] (]) 23:13, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
	::::Wild guess it is.<big>🍻</big> A little background on the DNA stuff in a nutshell (and I'm just the shell). "Back when" I was working on the sturgeon doc (2 years in the making), I spent a great deal of time and learning about relative genetics, DNA, and environmental changes/adaptations so I could properly script/present relative material the general puplic could understand. Granted, my memory is a little rusty because it's not something I do everyday. Worse yet, my hands-on background & education in animal husbandry (the latter doesn't change my pronoun) is what guides me. Am I under arrest, yet? While I may be too old to change, I'm not too old to learn new tricks (probably not the kind you're thinking, & has nothing to do with the topic of this discussion, at least not intentionally...well, maybe jokingly), <big>BUT</big>...since you brought it up...''(wink)''...maybe you can help me ] enough to learn what kind of RS justifies the inclusion of ''the earth is flat'' kind of material into a WP article. Example of a –scroll down to ''About the Author'' and then (+3 more pages) to the subtitle "Bull and terrier dogs" and the following statement (in context): {{xt|This is of prime importance in the story of the development of '''<u>our breed'''</u> as 150 years later this dog would be recognized by the Kennel Club as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier!!}}...which is followed by...{{xt|"So how did they go about producing these dogs? '''There is a theory….'''}} And then see if you can find where the Kennel Club (UK) or even the American Kennel Club made such claim.{{Shrug}} ] ] ] 01:03, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::Sturgeon doc? Where do they go to medical school? (Or do they not school?) Can a sturgeon become a surgeon? As for flat earth: ], ]. OK, now that I got ''that'' out of my system...
	:::::My reaction is that this book is an RS for your purposes. Given the content dispute, the proper way to deal with it would be with attribution: "According to James Beaufoy...". As I've said elsewhere, there is going to have to be inclusion of both perspectives on the page, and neither one is going to "win" this dispute. I also note that he treats it as two possible theories: one with terriers along with bulldogs as the ancestors, the other with bulldogs only. He does go on to describe in some detail how in the 1930s dog shows classified the breeds, so I figure that reflects what the kennel clubs determined. That's what I can get. --] (]) 23:20, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::Re-reading your question, I get the feeling that you believe that the source may ''not'' be reliable. If so, I don't agree with that. --] (]) 23:40, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::I don't think it's reliable for what has been proposed. Ok, so let me get this straight: we present the material with in-text attribution, saying something along the line of (maybe quote the author): {{xt|"150 years later this dog would be recognized by the Kennel Club as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier" (attributed); however, the that "The Staffordshire Bull Terrier shares the same ancestry as the Bull Terrier, i.e. Bulldog crossed with the Black and Tan terrier, and was developed as a fighting dog."}} Tryp, the Kennel Club does not state that it '''is the bull and terrier renamed''' which is the crux of the disagreement. Perhaps editors are getting confused with the breed name, ] vs the hybrid ancester ] that was never a bona fide breed? What is being proposed (actually insisted upon) is for us to say in Wikivoice that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier '''IS the''' "bull and terrier". Otherwise, there's no issue. The fact that the Stafford descends from the bull and terrier is already in the article, as are the two prevalent theories, and a very thoroughly detailed origin. Another fact that we know is that the ] was often called "bull and terrier" and is a direct descendant of the bull and terrier hybrid (undocumented mixed breeds). The Bull Terrier was recognized in the AKC registry first (back in the late 1800s). The English Kennel Club actually states: {{xt|"The modern Bull Terrier descended from a cross between the Bulldog and the White English Terrier and was bred for dog fighting in the 19th century."}} I guess my question is why you feel we should include misinformation as long as we attribute it? And what do we do with the other 5 (of 6) distinct breeds that are also descendants of the bull and terrier hybrid? ] ] ] 00:56, 11 February 2022 (UTC) <sup>Tryp, it's complicated, and I hope you know me well enough by now to know that I'd be the first to agree to adding material if it improved the article. My concern is that it will only serve to confuse <s>them</s> our readers. In fact, the {{xt|The story of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a relatively brief one in the grand scheme of canine history, but it can be confused by the several different names hung on the breed at various times.}} I welcome ideas that will help resolve this dilemma but please, not at the expense of accuracy. ] ] ] 02:22, 11 February 2022 (UTC) </sup>
	::::::::Yes, this ''is'' complicated, somewhat more complicated than I have the bandwidth to analyze fully, and I would have to hear both "sides" of this argument, from editors on each "side". And I don't want to. And what I say here is advice to you, but is not binding on any discussion elsewhere on-wiki. That said, it sounds to me like it would be '''wrong''' to say in Wikivoice that the SBT '''is''' the BaT, full stop. It just sounds to me like this is something where some sources say one thing and some sources say another, so to say in Wikivoice that this '''is''' the fact of the matter would be OR or POV. I think that the page could say something like "some sources say that the SBT is the same as the BaT (cite sources inline), while other sources say it is not (cite sources inline)". (The AKC source sounds like something worth citing for the fact that there has been ambiguity.) There may be some use for elaborating on what some individual sources say, with attribution, but it need not be worded in a comically verbose way. If editors see some problems with "source X says that the Kennel Club says so-and-so", then leave that out as undue weight, but still treat it as a question with two sides, for which Wikivoice does not take one side and ignore the other. (If there is a verifiable source from the actual Kennel Club, that would be better to cite there.) I think it's perfectly reasonable to be careful ''not'' to confuse readers about Bull Terrier and "bull and terrier" being the same thing; it should ''always'' be clear about distinguishing between the two. --] (]) 19:42, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::A similar compromise was made at ], dealing with the location of his birth. Some things are just lost to history, and sources will disagree. ] (]) 19:51, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
			::Iris responded by dawn, though not with words. She appeared on Nadia’s doorstep, looking haggard but electric with urgency.
	==Linda Blair==
			::"Did your email say… cilantro?" Iris asked by way of introduction.
			::Nadia’s breath caught. The word jarred her like a distant memory suddenly snapping into focus. "Yes! That’s the word!"
			::Iris stepped inside. "It’s not just you," she said. "I ran the experiment yesterday, and today I woke up in…" She gestured vaguely, her hand trembling. "This timeline. Trump. President. Twice. Does that sound right to you?"
			::"No," Nadia whispered. "That’s not right at all."
			::Iris nodded grimly. "I think the experiment created a resonance event. A ripple. We didn’t just detect extra dimensions—we collided with one. Things were… swapped, maybe overwritten. And now reality is… unstable."
			::—
	] was clearly an animal rights activist. It's mentioned in her lead. "''Blair has publicly supported various charitable causes and is a prominent activist for the animal rights movement. In 2004, she founded the Linda Blair WorldHeart Foundation, a nonprofit organization that serves to rehabilitate and adopt rescue animals. A vegan, Blair co-authored the book Going Vegan! in 2001''." In the article is also says "As an adult, she became an animal rights activist and humanitarian, working with People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, Feed the Children, Variety, the Children's Charity, and other organizations". How is this not defining? It appears you are removing other categories as well when we have good sourcing on some of these biographies. David Bale for example is described as an animal rights activist in obituaries . ] (]) 19:39, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
	:OK, please feel free to revert me. My watchlist blew up today with all the categorization you have been doing, and I'm seeing a lot of bios being placed in animal rights categories that are pushing ] too far. But I can certainly make mistakes, and I'm sorry when I do. --] (]) 19:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
	:: Fair play I have not actually added any of those categories originally I was just replacing them with specific countries because the main category is overpopulated, I understand the category has been mis-used. I have just replaced the animal rights activist category with specific countries that's all I was doing I haven't actually read over all of them, I agree that some are not defining. There is also a big issue as some articles in the lead describe such people as animal rights but when you read the article they were animal welfare or vice versa. The same issue might be happening at veganism activists which is massively populated and needs to be broken down into sub-categories. ] (]) 19:49, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::Yes, I recognize that that's all that you were doing, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I appreciate fixing the countries. It's just that I saw all this, and wanted to correct the misuse of the categories where it was happening. --] (]) 19:51, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::: Yes sorry, I agree with most of your edits. I know the category has been mis-used. Feel free to correct them, cheers. ] (]) 19:52, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::::Is there a category for "possessed" or "exorcised"...or is the latter more suited to ] ] ] ] 22:45, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
	::::::Yeah, probably. My funniest anecdote from those edits was that there is a page about an athlete, where someone put the page into ] only because the person had once run into the street to rescue a turtle who was at risk of getting hit by a car. Only on Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 23:17, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
			::Before they could test Iris’s hypothesis, they found themselves in danger. Nadia’s phone buzzed with a notification from an unknown number: "STOP ASKING QUESTIONS." She showed it to Iris, who paled.
	== Requesting some article expansion help ==
			::"We’ve been flagged," Iris muttered. "I saw this happen to a colleague who leaked data on quantum tunneling. Government goons will be here soon."
			::"Goons?" Nadia asked, incredulous.
			::"They work for Trump’s special enforcement division," Iris said. "They don’t ask nicely."
			::Sure enough, an unmarked van screeched to a halt outside Nadia’s apartment moments later. Iris grabbed Nadia by the wrist. "We’re leaving. Now."
			::—
	Greetings @ Tryptofish
			::They fled to a safe house—a cluttered lab Iris kept at a university where the funding board hadn’t yet realized she wasn’t teaching any actual classes. There, she unveiled her plan.
	Requesting your visit to the article ] and help expand the same if you are interested in the topic.
			::"If the experiment caused this," she said, setting up a portable particle collider, "another experiment might reverse it. Or at least shift us to a new timeline, hopefully closer to the original."
			::"And if it doesn’t?" Nadia asked.
			::Iris hesitated. "Then we… might make things worse."
			::As Iris calibrated the machine, the pounding of boots echoed in the hallway outside. They were out of time. Iris slammed a lever forward, and the collider hummed to life.
			::—
			::The world rippled. For a moment, Nadia saw everything: timelines stacked like layers of glass, shimmering and infinite. She saw herself in countless iterations—a teacher, a soldier, a gardener. She saw Iris, too, her doppelgangers tweaking experiments, raising families, or staring into the void. And then, just as quickly, it was gone.
	] (]) 13:12, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
			::They awoke in silence. The lab was empty. Outside the window, the streets looked normal, unmarked by armed vans or propaganda posters. Nadia turned on the TV. The president’s face appeared.
			::"Kamala Harris," she whispered. Relief swept over her.
			::But something was still… off. Iris pointed to a banner scrolling beneath the news anchor: "In local news, scientists confirm extinction of parsley family."
			::Nadia’s heart sank. "Iris…"
			::"I know," Iris said, her voice hollow. "We didn’t fix it. We just… shifted the glitch."
			::Nadia tried to recall the taste of cilantro but found she couldn’t. Instead, a new absence began to form in her mind, an aching blank where another word should have been.
			::Parsley.
			::—
	:Thank you for asking me, but I won't be able to put the time in for that. (If any of my talk page participants are interested, I hope that they will help you with it.) After a quick look, I'd like to suggest that you read ] and make sure the page is compatible with that. Good luck and happy editing. --] (]) 19:46, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
			::And somewhere, in a timeline just a hair’s breadth away, Donald Trump’s goons received orders to stop hunting the word "cilantro."
	== "anyone can edit" ==
			::Now, they were after "oregano."
			{{cob}}
			:Having logged in today, to find that my entire talk page retinue has gone cuckoo{{fbdb}}, I will randomly link to this: . --] (]) 21:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::That song was played as the outro on NPR's latest episode of "On the Media". They played it again last night, which is when I heard it while driving in my car. Were you listening as well? ] (]) 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yup, exactly that. When I heard it, I just ''had'' to find it online. (Obviously, I have sophisticated tastes in music.) --] (]) 23:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Speaking of good music, of "]" by ] is one of my faves. ] (]) 10:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			== A barnstar for you! (2) ==
	Hi Tryptofish. You user page caught my attention. I was just wondering, out of pure curiosity, what would be your remedy for the problems that you see with the "anyone can edit" model? Would it be to select users based on credentials and things of that nature? Or am I misunderstanding something? Again, I'm just curious, nothing more. ] ] 19:29, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
	:Hi, and thanks for asking. It's definitely not a suggestion to require credentials, and it never even occurred to me until now that it could be understood that way. First of all, I posted it at a time when I was ''seriously'' pissed off over some things, and that now feels to me more like it's at least partially in the past – but I just haven't felt like updating my page. To some extent, it's more about a feeling (generally speaking) that there were some people who should have been blocked or banned or page-blocked or topic-banned, and who weren't. And partly over seeing some good editors driven away by editors who should have been recognized as "not here". And, most of all, over a feeling that the crowdsourcing model has been starting to bump up against its limitations. That last one remains something I'm concerned about now. The WMF has this misguided premise that it's always good when the number of edits goes up and it's always bad when it goes down or stays flat, and that the same thing applies to numbers of editors. And that's not true. I (to use an example that's near and dear to my heart!) am more useful than an IP vandal. I'm not at all convinced that Misplaced Pages is here to stay, and a part of the problem is the tendency to accept conventional wisdom without continuously reevaluating it. --] (]) 19:43, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
			{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
	== ] revert ==
			|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | ]
			|rowspan="2" |
			|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar'''
			|-
			|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | For your brilliant summation at the Village Pump concerning MAGA's threat to Misplaced Pages. ] 21:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			|}<!--Template:The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar-->
			:"Let's make Greenland ]!" <small>(Now taking bookings for tropical ])</small> ] (]) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	I was wondering why you reverted changes that gained consensus on the talk page. I don't see why the results of the Arbcom case are necessary. ] &#8258; ] 19:35, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
			::Ravenswing, thank you very much for the kind words. (By the way, I've always been amused by the phrase "Defender of the Wiki". I think this is the first time I've gotten that one.) Martin, I'm booking a one-way ticket to Wales (not Jimmy). This is about: . --] (]) 22:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Because the consensus on the talk page was to remove a paragraph that remains removed and was unaffected by my edit, and because the other talk page RfCs remain open and do not show any ] in either direction. So your claim of consensus is unfounded. And your making, again, a removal of content that you had removed repeatedly in the slow edit war that I documented in my ArbCom evidence, is just continuing, after a long break, that same slow edit war. I returned the page, for the time being, to where it was at the beginning of the ArbCom case. --] (]) 19:51, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
			:::Yes, I know. And also applaud your sentiments. Well said! ] (]) 22:21, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	:(e-c) In addition, I'm also having difficulty tracking down which version you have reverted to Tryptofish. Could you link that diff please? At least some of the changes that have been reverted do have valid consensus via RfC, so this revert appears improper. ] (]) 19:53, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
			:. --] (]) 18:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I'll reply because it's a straightforward question on something where I'm accountable, but this does not negate my notice below. My revert was this: . The material I reverted was this: . I did not revert this: . As a result, the present page is this: , with this: added. --] (]) 20:04, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
	:::Just to be super-easy to follow, I reverted the combination of these three edits: , , , and did ''not'' revert these two edits: , . --] (]) 20:19, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
	:'''Important Note to Other Editors:''' Please do not make '''any''' edits in this talk section. I will revert them. That's because I don't want the dispute underlying the ArbCom case to re-erupt here. This discussion will be between ACS and me. --] (]) 19:51, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

---

Latest revision as of 18:15, 10 January 2025

Retired, and not coming back.

I do want to say thank you for the kind words to the editors who posted here. But this is permanent. It makes no sense to donate volunteer time and effort if I am going to be treated with disrespect.--Tryptofish (talk) 22:36, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Very sorry

I don't pretend to understand the entire back story, but I'm very sorry to see this. I greatly enjoyed working with you, am proud of what we did, and know that this place will be the poorer for your absence. KJP1 (talk) 06:56, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Ditto. And again ditto. And thrice ditto, alas. A great loss to the project. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:16, 13 January 2020 (UTC) p.s. I don't pretend to actually understand any story, but never mind.

Really ?

That would be such a loss. please reconsider.--Iztwoz (talk) 08:21, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Tryptofish, I appreciate the contributions you have made to wikipedia over the years, and I think your ability to work in areas of conflict while avoiding personalization of disputes is a great asset to wikipedia. I encourage you to return when you feel ready.Dialectric (talk) 21:12, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	Hey Tryptofish. Yah lately has sucked :-( Thank you for all your efforts over the years. I have truely enjoyed working with you and it is with great sadness to see you go. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:25, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

I'll chime in here to say it will be tough to see you go. Dealing with stressful topics is already hard enough even though you've done it well (and it's helped make stressful topics I've edited slightly more manageable), but regardless of personal stuff going on, you deserve a break. Considering that personal stuff though, I won't speculate on if it's an acute short-term or a more serious long-term issue, but definitely don't feel like you owe more to Misplaced Pages to the point it draws you away from obviously more important things at this time. If your editing did indeed end yesterday, you've done more than plenty to be able to say all done. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:30, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

I was sorry to notice this. Thank you for all you did for Misplaced Pages and farewell, Tryptofish. I'll always be glad to see you around should you return. —PaleoNeonate – 10:19, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Hope that, at some point in time, you will reconsider. Sorry to see you go. Best wishes, El_C 11:13, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

No!!!

We took a vote and it's been decided that you're not leaving. Misplaced Pages can't afford to lose you. Yeh, Misplaced Pages is badly and intractably screwed up in some areas and abuses it's best people. Just gotta avoid those and eventually try to fix them, which will take some fundamental fixes and that will need the top 1% best people like you. So please strike your post :-)

More seriously, you owe Misplaced Pages nothing (quite the reverse)and you deserve a good and pleasant life so do whatever you need to to have that. If we're lucky that will include you being here tomorrow or some day. May the wind be at your back.... North8000 (talk) 23:03, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Wikipedians also known as Le Poisson de Trypto

A tag has been placed on Category:Wikipedians also known as Le Poisson de Trypto requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Liz 02:28, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Because our readers cannot find useful information if there are empty user categories. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:48, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Of course, C1 doesn't apply to categories that are populated. But once they delete the category, they'll also remove the red-link category from this talk page, too. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:57, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians also known as Le Poisson de Trypto has been nominated for discussion

Category:Wikipedians also known as Le Poisson de Trypto, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Gonnym (talk) 19:39, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

To anyone who still watches this page: could you please keep an eye out for this kind of crap and see if you can do something about it? I'd like to be able to take a quick look at my talk page without being made to feel like my head is going to explode. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:47, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't know the background of what led you to leave; I assume from clues above that it was not this. But if it was, I'd understand. This place is becoming increasingly, relentlessly anti-human being. FWIW I commented at the CFD. But while I'm here, I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus. You'll be missed. You're good people, Tryp. Not quite as good as me, but damn close. Vaya con Dios. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:59, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. There's a diff that I put at the top of this talk page, where another editor summarizes (with a few inaccuracies that are not related to what concerns me) what led me to this; interested editors can work back from that to get the details. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:17, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

I've been remiss

...partly because of a health issue and a little Doc-In-The-Box surgery, and now that I'm back on track, I came by to say "hi" only to find this sad news. It's not often that one finds me speechless but this is one of those times. 💔 _Talk 📧 11:18, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Atsme, and no worries. I do continue to look here from time to time, as I have every right to do, but I really am done donating volunteer effort to improve content or to try to help resolve disputes. But I do want to let you know that I heard the interview with you on Innovation Hub, and I knew that it was you right away. I really enjoyed that! (While I'm at it, I also hope the health stuff is fine for you now, as well as to let everyone know that the health stuff of my own that I mentioned just before leaving was utterly trivial and had nothing to do with my leaving, and that I'm just fine physically and mentally. Insert joke about "mentally" here.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:48, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Good to know you're in good health and will be checking in from time to time. Thank you for letting me know about IH - I didn't know the interview was included on their website podcast. _Talk 📧 20:09, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

What in the world is going on?

I've been chasing diffs for 20 minutes now and I can't find any indication of what this is all about. EEng 20:19, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict):My sincere apologies if anything is leaving you feeling frustrated. What's going on, as far as I'm concerned, is that I am through with donating effort to this project, and would be quite content to make no posts here whatsoever – but I feel that I have every right to simply read here about anything going on that refers to me, and to be offended when something is hostile to me. If nobody takes any shots at me, I'll be entirely silent. So all I want is to be left alone. I don't think that's asking very much. I know that's not what you asked, but I don't think that it would do anyone any good for me to put a detailed complaint here. The locus of it follows from the two diffs at the top, and if to some extent it doesn't make sense, that's because it doesn't make sense, and that's all I'm going to say. But, really, I do appreciate your concern. After ec: maybe what comes below explains it to some extent. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:36, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

@EEng: start here, here, and here, for the context behind this, where Barkeep49 merely suggested both parties could get a fair hearing at AE. Trypto, please decide if you are retired or not. Per this, no I did not notify you (you said you were not coming back) and no, I did not suggest administrator action against you, any more than Barkeep49 did. I am sorry that you seem to find simple directives, asking people to walk back commentary or AGF, apparently offensive. I am sorry that you didn't tell us about your draft while you were working on it, only letting us know at the 11th hour, but we all did our best. Since, as a retired user, you want to be notified when you are mentioned, please consider that you are. I believe my good faith efforts, asking you to stop pushing toward an arbcase, are in plain view on your talk page before you blanked and retired. I continue to ask same. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:30, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

I have to go fix my sister-in-law's heat, but I'll just say quickly that implying Tfish is "high-maintenance" isn't going to get you very far with experienced users throughout the project. It may be true (I don't know) that in this particular situation he's asking for some unusual (for him) level of consideration, but he's built up a large reserve of capital he's entitled to draw on now. Tfish, I'll try to untangle this when I get back (not that I have any hope of being the one to change your mind) but, y'know, . EEng 21:14, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

@EEng:, in these particular discussions, it could be helpful for you to note who the "experienced users" are. IMO, the page I linked to describes editors who retire at the mere mention that their conduct (along with others) might be reviewed impartially at WP:AE (with no blame assigned in either direction), and then ... don't actually "retire" as stated. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:40, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

By experienced users I mean editors who have seen and worked with Tfish on many articles, policy discussions, and dispute resolutions over many years. EEng 01:53, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Where I tend to use that term for editors who have been building top content for 15 years ... that's the crowd I am most associated with. As a group, we tend to hold WP:V, WP:NOT, WP:NOR, and WP:WEIGHT in high regard. YMMV. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:40, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Just want to add that I hope you realize (and I'm sure you do) that there are a substantial number of editors who have been building top content for far less than 15 years, and that those editors (as a group) also tend to hold WP:V, WP:NOT, WP:NOR, and WP:WEIGHT in high regard. To relate only to a specific group of editors' capability based on "tenure" rather than ability demonstrates to me how easily WP:CIR can be misconstrued, and why we should AGF before jumping to conclusions (although that may be the only exercise some actively engage in). I have 8 years invested in WP, and while Tryp has not always been on my side (to his fault ), I have always respected his input, mediation capabilities, and sincere desire to find resolution. No one is perfect but we all deserve a proper level of respect for our input, regardless of whether it fits within the realm of popular opinion. I think the long and short of it is that sitting on a high horse means you have a longer distance to fall if/when you get bucked off. _Talk 📧 03:37, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Did you find a "sincere desire to find resolution" in the diffs I provided? Or a desire to enact one RFC format, rejected by many editors for various reasons, which was worked on without telling anyone else until very late in the process, while repeatedly raising the issue of an arbcase? (I appreciate and respect your eight years of solid content work, I suspect I may have been on many more bucking horses in my life than you, and you might re-read the evolution of the "experienced users" commentary to distinguish use of the concept as it applies to these discussions.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:57, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

editors who have been building top content for 15 years ... that's the crowd I am most associated with – even if you do say so yourself, that is. Just so you know, I am substantially less impressed with the FA crowd's talents than are they themselves (though as a group, they exhibit powers of self-congratulation that are truly extraordinary). High horse (Atsme's words above) hardly does justice. EEng 06:19, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

So, I was wondering why you walked in to the "experienced users" issue here at all, considering the most "experienced users" in the discussions are in agreement about Misplaced Pages policies. From what I can gather, it appears you meant to say, "experienced friends of Tryptofish". Have you now had a chance to catch up on the discussions ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:47, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

I brought up "experienced users" because you termed Tfish "high maintenance", and the fact is that editors with wide experience in article and project space would have a hard time seeing him that way. I'll add that many of the FA crew do not qualify as widely experienced, because long dainty teas during which every added or dropped comma is the subject of multiple posts, thank-yous, and ritual congratulations, instead of someone just doing it, doesn't get you what I would call wide experience in the project's many facets. EEng 22:48, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

No, I did not term Trypto "high maintenance". I linked to a page that explains why one might ignore editors who left in a fit, as an explanation for why I didn't ping him. (Why are you so focused on FAs?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:53, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Your link implicitly characterized him. I brought up FAs because you bragged about "building top content for 15 years"; if by that you didn't mean FAs then that's a relief, because there are plenty of FAs which ain't so great. EEng 22:58, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

So, back on topic after the odd reference to "experienced users" (there has only been one non-"experienced user" by any definition in the discussions to my knowledge, but curiously, Trypto quotes them in diffs at the top of this page). Trypto, whether or not you are retired, I am asking you, again, the same thing I asked repeatedly before you put up the retirement post: please refrain from stirring the pot. It was unbecoming before, and is even more unbecoming now that you offer unfair criticism of Barkeep49's very moderate approach from the distance of "retirement", and it is not helpful towards efforts to a "sincere desire to find resolution". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:23, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Sandy, I'll be blunt (and I can generally only recall positive things from you when I've come across you before), but the tone of your comments here really does come across as stirring the pot to the point of badgering regardless of intent. Especially since Trypto has indicated they don't intend to really interact outside brief somewhat recent comments at this talk page anymore, it's probably better if folks just drop the stick on this particular section. EEng had a question, Trypto responded (also indicating they wanted to be left alone on this subject), and it's probably best for others not to "jump in" given the nature of what was lead to this. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:41, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

You may have missed a piece: the fact that Trypto made an accusation aimed at me in his last post. That's not "stirring the pot"; it's answering a direct accusation. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:10, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, I think you'd really be better off leaving this discussion. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 05:25, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Sad

I didn't think there was any point in writing something here because I saw the retired notices. But since you're reading occasionally I would just like to express how sad I am about your leaving. I am also regretful the actions I did that precipitated your choosing to step back. I hadn't realized how close to the breaking point you were and if I had I would have phrased some stuff differently. I don't think my going long there is likely to help things (but if it would let me know and I'll write more). So let me just conclude with the fact that I think Misplaced Pages is a better place with you as an active editor than you not. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:57, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

@Barkeep49: Thank you, sincerely, for that message, which I appreciate very much. I feel that I should give you a response, but with the caveat that I do not want it to precipitate a flurry of comments from other editors who want to take issue with anything that I say. First, it is entirely correct that I have been questioning whether or not to continue here for quite a few months now, starting around the time that MPants had his conflict and continuing through what happened to Ritchie (who I'm happy to see has returned) and through the Fram fiasco. That all happened before the present situation. But I do not see it as me being "close to the breaking point". It was an entirely rational decision on my part, and it's not like I owe Misplaced Pages anything or need to satisfy any sort of criterion in order to decide to stop being an active editor. I made a comparison of the pluses and minuses just after the comment you made about AE, and concluded that this had become a net negative. And I'm quite enjoying having a couple of hours each day being freed up that I am spending on other things, quite productively.

But, since you came here to comment, I'm going to give you two specific points of feedback, as to what went wrong. (And that will also spell it out for other editors who have been asking me what happened.) First, I had told you very clearly on your talk page that I would be able to refute each of the accusations that were made against me, but that my doing so would necessarily be lengthy. I did not want to do that unilaterally, because I knew it would trigger a rebuttal to my rebuttal, which would have made things worse instead of better. So instead I told you clearly that you should ask me for my side before reaching any conclusions in your role as an admin. But you expressly did not do that, and were even somewhat dismissive about it. The second point is that you expressed a clear, and incorrect, opinion as to what should happen if the AE complaint against me had been followed through on, and you most certainly did not (as portrayed in other comments above) state it as being a neutral place where both sides would be able to work out their differences. And that, in turn, would have set up a predetermined outcome against me if the other editor had chosen to follow through. That's what I think, so take it or leave it. And please understand that I do not want anyone to treat what I said as a reason for de-adminning. God no! It's just honest feedback, in case it helps in the future, and nothing more.

And the bottom line to all that is that I'm not seeing any reason for me to volunteer to subject myself to that kind of experience. I continue to watch with interest what is happening with that dispute, but I'm not going to be involved with it in any way. I'm also watching an ArbCom case that has implications for what bothers me about what happened to MPants. And who knows, maybe the time will come when I will think to myself "I told you so" about both of those things. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:48, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

PS. I just remembered a third point. Although you made one comment to me about redacting one thing that I had said, you never really told me that you had any broader concerns. If you had, I would have listened. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:54, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. FWIW I did know you could produce diffs if requested and I did not presume what the outcome of an AE filing would be. In the end I didn't feel comfortable with levying any formal sanctions against you and choose not to. I wish I had made that point clearer at the time. Anyhow I really do appreciate the feedback and will definitely return here after I've processed it a bit more to read again and further consider how I can improve as an editor and sysop. Best, 22:53, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

1. I told you so: .
2. This turned out to be somewhat less black-and-white, glass half-full or glass half-empty. To some extent, the draft RfC was improved upon after I left, fixing some of the things that I was warning about. And I feel the need to say, after some distance, that I don't like the way that I was coming across, that it really did represent a decline in my frame of mind, and is all the more reason for me to continue to be away. (By the way, I'm really enjoying the free time it opened up!) But still, fundamentally, I told you so. In the RfC close, , some of the easy questions did get answered. But I clearly remember that the community's consensus for having the RfC in the first place grew out of a fundamental and unresolved dispute between committed editors on the issue of when to include drug pricing: . And in the close of the RfC: There is no consensus on whether drug prices should be included in articles at all... Drugs which fall into the grey area between these extremes should be discussed on a case-by-case basis. So the "extremes" are settled. But editors will be back to arguing "case-by-case" for everything else. This won't be the end of the dispute. But: not my problem any more.
3. Well, it took a long time, but I feel that this: vindicates what I believed all those years ago. And all the snarling directed at me here: sure looks different today.

I appreciate the hard work

		The Fishy Barnstar
		Thank you for all the work that you have put into aquarium fishes and aquascaping articles!  — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:12, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi Tryptofish,

I very much appreciate the hard work that you have put into aquarium fishes and aquascaping articles. Simply studying aquascaping, shrimp keeping and other related hobbies is very satisfying, rewarding and peaceful as I'm sure you know.

I believe that if you take some of the drama areas out of your watchlist, and focus on the fun and satisfaction of editing within the hobby, then you will have a more pleasurable experience. I also believe that you have much more to contribute and share with the readers who are the silent majority that never find their way to the talk pages to say "thank you". I think that you have had a greater impact for their benefit than you know and I hope that you will continue to do so.

Perhaps a bit selfish of me but I would like to see you upload photos of your tanks as well as the inhabitants in them. I would enjoy hearing about them. I surf Youtube quite a bit to see what others are doing in the hobby and I think that you might appreciate the experiments in this list. Among other things, he's had some success converting terrestrial grass and mosses into candidates for the aquarium. I also imagine that his sentiments about the hobby's community in his channel video linked above are apropos here. I believe that you have edited here for many of the same reasons that he does what he does.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:12, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

A very fishy thank you very much for such a wonderful message! I appreciate it very much. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:34, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

P.S. I see that the WMF servers crashed today. That's what happens: I go away and everything here falls apart! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:38, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

I was hoping you’d notice. I crashed them in protest of your leaving. EEng 00:31, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Maybe that crash is the perfect excuse for them to change their name to Misplaced Pages Foundation. 😳 _Talk 📧 03:49, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Like --Tryptofish (talk) 21:44, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you! (9)

	The Writer's Barnstar
	Great work on Ora Nichols. I love the lighthearted topic and images. I only just saw the article today, so I'm a couple years behind. Viriditas (talk) 10:10, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. This pick-me-up for my wiki-mood came at just the right time. Yes, when I learned of Nichols, I knew that this would be a worthy article (maybe not quite as shocking as Jack Sumner, but a woman who needed to be changed from red to blue, for sure). Since I started it, another editor messed up a bit of sourcing, but it's still a good read. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:23, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

This comment is truly funny. I remember crushing a berry basket as a kid and being fascinated by the sound. Viriditas (talk) 23:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes. There's something about sound effects that can bring out the inner child in all of us. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

A fan of the fish

Just a quick reminder incase you didn't know. You are special and I'm definitely a fan. A fan of your contributions to the encyclopedia and the community. I'm glad I can consider you a wiki(fish)friend. --ARoseWolf 17:57, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

And I, of course, am a fan of the wolf. Thanks so much for the kind words! --Tryptofish (talk) 19:54, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

And thank you, kind fish, for your words. I do cherish them like a favorite book by a warm fire on an artic winter's day. They are sunshine to my soul. --ARoseWolf 16:31, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

--Tryptofish (talk) 18:18, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Proxying

Thanks for your comments at the article. Obviously off-site stuff gets tricky, so I'm not going to provide any additional info on where exactly it was (and you don't provide email contact, so no one can claim I'm sharing it with you privately). I'll say though that I check in on off-wiki sites sometimes just to keep tabs on stalking issues because of my involvement in the GMO topic here, which used to be much worse. Unfortunately, I've known colleagues who had to have police involved due to internet stalking related to GMOs as well as some climate scientist friends who got denialist stalkers (not related to Wiki at least), so that stuff hits home a bit.

Just checking in on advice here mostly though. I'm more in the camp that it's probably better not to give the user attention, but do you think emailing ArbCom the only realistic next avenue here for what would have to be private evidence? That's not to say I'm intent on doing that at this moment, but I kind of struck me that it didn't seem like there was an obvious step below that than since ANI, etc. would be ruled out. Thanks. KoA (talk) 03:06, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

My basic reaction is to do nothing unless the problem happens again. Let me say, delicately, that there are reasons that I avoid saying anything about the user we are probably both thinking of, so that may be a reason that I'm, personally, disinclined to act. I am satisfied that the editor who made the edit here did so in good faith, and as you know, I subsequently made an edit to change the content to something that is unlikely to be like the requested proxy, while also making our content up to date as it should be. Of course, if you really want to report it, emailing ArbCom is the way to go, and you should not post about it at any of our drama boards. But I really don't see much upside to acting on this, unless it keeps happening.

As for that risk of stalking by activists, I hear you. I know editors who have had that happen, too. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:58, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, and yeah, I'd be more prone to wait until something like that happens again too, though it is a concern of it continuing when there's been off-site escalation to the point it resulted in something obvious like this. We'll see what happens going forward, but I don't have high expectations given what I've seen. KoA (talk) 16:30, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Health scare

I haven't been commenting on it onsite, but I've been dealing with some significant health issues, centering on lumbar radiculopathy. More on that another time. But today, I developed swelling in my left leg, and my primary care doctor was concerned that it might be deep vein thrombosis, which could be a matter of life and death. I've just gotten home from spending several hours in the hospital, where they were able to determine that it was only superficial vein thrombosis, which turns out to be no big deal. So it turned out to be quite a scare, but with a happy ending. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:35, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Glad to hear you are OK, but welcome to the DVT club. Have you had a chance to review the membership materials? Viriditas (talk) 01:37, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Does that mean that you had DVT? --Tryptofish (talk) 16:47, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I have hereditary thrombophilia, which means I have an increased risk for blood clots, and many of the people in my extended family tree have died of clots, so it's an expected outcome that I am aware of in my everyday life. I have a healthy diet and I live an active life; I run three times a week and I walk a lot in addition to running. I have had concerning symptoms in the past, such as paresthesia, and warm patches on my arms or legs, but it hasn't posed a problem. I monitor most of my vitals on a daily basis, maintain a healthy blood pressure and weight, and basically take good care of myself. Although my politics are somewhat different, my approach to medicine (as an amateur hypochondriac) is almost identical to that of Peter Attia. If you haven't read his book Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity (2023), you really should. It's a somewhat easy read and shouldn't take you more than a day or two. Viriditas (talk) 19:59, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Oh, wow, thanks for sharing that. I'm glad you do all those things to take good care of yourself. I try to do that too, and my vitals/blood pressure are very good for someone my age. In my case, the clot was caused by an adverse reaction to a steroid injection I had gotten for the radiculopathy, go figure. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:20, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

That makes sense. Speaking of adverse reactions and clotting, erythritol has been in the news a lot for the last several months. See erythritol and cardiovascular events, and popular artificial sweetener erythritol linked to higher risk for blood clots. User:Zefr deleted this information from the Misplaced Pages article in June. Viriditas (talk) 20:26, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I use stevia instead of sugar, and you just sent me on a very hurried look to make sure that it isn't erythritol (it isn't), whew. I agree with that revert by the way, per WP:MEDRS. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

In the US, products are not required to list erythritol on the label because it is classified by the FDA as GRAS, which means long-term safety studies aren't needed. But as of 2023, researchers are calling for long-term safety studies on erythritol. But such studies are not required by the FDA because erythritol is exempt as GRAS. This is pretzel logic. This reminds me of other well-known pretzel logic by the FDA, such as their claim that cannabis has no federally approved medical use for treatment in the US. Meanwhile, the FDA continues to approve cannabis-derived or synthetic cannabis-related medical products. It's really hard to take these industry-captured, regulatory agencies seriously. Viriditas (talk) 22:52, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Stepping out of my editor role, and speaking as I am in real life, I very much share a lot of what you just said about the pretzel logic of the US health care system. There's an irony that the big industry carve-out regarding food safety extends to the big industry centered around health foods and herbal additives, which pretends to be just mom and pop but is anything but. As someone who has seen US biomedical science from the inside, I can tell you that, as insidious as the influence of money is, there is also an incredible amount of resistance to new ideas in the medical and science communities. Even though I agree with the concept that health care should not include stuff that hasn't been proven to be safe and effective, when it comes to cannabis and other Schedule 1 drugs, the slowness of progress stinks in my opinion.

I mentioned at the top that I've been dealing all summer with radiculopathy. In practice, that means a big part of it is pain control. I've had a very painful (pun intended) learning experience about how important it has been for me to be my own best advocate in getting the health care that I need. I have the education, communication skills, and personality to assert myself when I need more medicine, but I know that there must be many people who have the diagnosis that I have, or much worse, who cannot advocate for themselves, and that's appalling. I used to teach my students that no person should ever have to wish for death because they aren't getting enough medicine and cannot stand the pain. This summer, I've experienced what it feels like. I spent decades as a researcher into how the opioid drugs work, and I now know those drugs up close and personal. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I won't belabor the point, other than to say I'm happy you are doing better (...and that dentistry should be fully integrated back into medicine and healthcare delivery). Viriditas (talk) 21:23, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

--Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Further information: User talk:Viriditas § Moving discussion here

Pleased to learn it’s nothing too serious. Take care. KJP1 (talk) 06:39, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, both of you. Never before have I been so glad to be told that I'm just superficial. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:47, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry to hear of your health issues, Trypto. I do wish you all the very best. At least it's not pushing and pulling? Ah yes, pretzel logic.... "Any minor world that breaks apart falls together again..." Martinevans123 (talk) 20:56, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Good luck with your progress—it's never fun to deal with health problems. isaacl (talk) 19:39, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Martin and Isaac! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:11, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

You are anything but superficial but I too am glad for the diagnosis. Tryp, you are one of most valued friends here and I don't say that lightly. Just take care of yourself, please. I had to learn this the hard way. I was always giving and rarely would receive anything in return. I would emotionally invest in others even at my own expense. I still do to a degree but I was forced to focus on myself when my health become a serious issue. I have been focusing more on myself, if only a little. Just, please, do take care. Need you around to make my day brighter. --ARoseWolf 17:37, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks so much! That's good advice. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:56, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Is is. Very sorry to hear this. Put yourself first for a while. I know how hard that is. Doug Weller talk 19:03, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Doug. (Much as I think you have been doing, I'm doing some editing here, but picking and choosing what I will and what I will not spend time and energy on.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:05, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Update

As it happens, I did become a card-carrying member of the DVT club, but I'm happy to say that, today, I got kicked out of it. Shortly after what I talked about above, my doctors decided I should have a follow-up ultrasound of my leg, just to be sure. Unfortunately, it revealed that my superficial vein thrombosis had turned into deep vein thrombosis, and I've been dealing with that for the past ~six weeks. I've been taking Xarelto, as a blood-thinner. Today, I had another ultrasound, and it showed that the DVT was cleared up and gone. Which is a nice reason for me to be thankful on Thanksgiving.

Because I am done with the blood thinner, that makes it safe for me to have spinal cord surgery, to deal with, once and for all, the lumbar radiculopathy. My surgery is scheduled for Dec. 12. I'm actually happy about doing it, even though it's definitely major surgery, because it will mean an end to the pain. I'll post more about that, closer to the time. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:26, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Wishing you a quick and pain-free recovery on your health journey. It's a journey we will all have to make in our own way, so we are all on this road together. Viriditas (talk) 20:32, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

question

Typtofish we have a RfC Talk:COVID-19 pandemic#RFC on current consensus #18 that needs an uninvolved editor to close, as its been up for some time, I realize you may be busy, should you have the time to take a look I would be in your debt, Ozzie--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:48, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm going through a tough patch, and that looks like a lot of aggravation. I suggest you try Misplaced Pages:Closure requests. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:37, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

ok (I just read the above post, I apologize... I wasn't aware, I wish you the best and fastest recovery possible, Ozzie)--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 18:03, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

No need to apologize. Thanks, Ozzie. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Not much may come of it, but

Just wanted to tell you I posted Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom/Suggestions#Suggestion_by Gråbergs_Gråa_Sång_(2023-10-11). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:58, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that, and thanks for letting me know. I'll be watching what happens. By the way, I'm OK with the result at the AfD, although I think that the closing statement suffered from virtue signaling. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:19, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Just in case you haven’t seen it

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Statement by Gtoffoletto. He really should have pinged you, but then he didn’t ping me either, just linked to my block of him. Doug Weller talk 20:43, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I definitely saw it, thanks. I'm not going to comment about it there, given that editors are discouraged from going back and forth at one another. I'm going to wait and see what the case scope is, and who the parties are (including whether or not I'm one), but I have all the evidence that I expect to need, already lined up in my mind. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:47, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

RIP Looie496

I just found out. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:44, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Industrial agriculture: Case opened

Hello Tryptofish,

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Industrial agriculture. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Industrial agriculture/Evidence. Please add your evidence by November 8, 2023, which is when the evidence phase closes. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration.

For the Arbitration Committee,
~ ToBeFree (talk) 01:09, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

A quick note on recent events

Hey, hope you're doing well despite all "teh dramaz" and the sorry state of the world at large, and to the extent that my actions are collaterally inflicting a smoke cloud on the proceedings or reflecting on yourself, I apologize, because I do legitimately believe that the article needs a better title and not that I'm trying to tendentiously curtail it to tell a different story, and I don't want any of my bad acts to blow up in your face as they are. IMHO, the early Zionists were pretty racist and even some of the modern ones - I firmly believe that. Ironically, I'm a leftist, and my sympathies lie very much with the Palestinian refugees, as a descendant of Jewish refugees (just not Hamas), I oppose colonialism and Netanyahu and the settlers encroaching on the West Bank (in case our mutual friends on that side are reading this). But I also think the recent actions by Hamas are egregious crimes against humanity, and I don't believe Israel is engaging in genocide in any of the accepted meanings of that (but I would accept apartheid). Anyway, I don't think we chat too much or even agree that much usually, which is why the present scenario has a certain dark comic aspect to it, n'est-ce pas? Anyway, I was hoping to leave you a note on the following things, 1) I hope you don't take a "chilling effect" from the treatment you encountered at the last AE. One of the reasons I felt compelled to file this was because of the way that one ended up, and how unequivocal it is that some actors are practicing extreme ownership and hostility. Personally, I don't ever see an excuse or justification for certain hostile activities. 2) I know the person who made that apparently-antisemitic comment last time did it by accident. I'm sure they didn't really apologize suitably for it. It's a blind spot, but I know they didn't mean that. 3) Maybe you want me to close my RM so a fresh one can be reopened considering all that has transpired and archive the last 2 talk page topics. Hopefully, moving forward will be a better tenor. 4) Regarding reply threading, I use the reply tool on desktop, but I think it doesn't work well for people who read on mobile. An unrelated problem worth thinking about. Andre🚐 15:07, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughtful message. For (1), I'm disappointed in the AE admins, but I've been around so many Misplaced Pages disputes that I'm quite comfortable with how these things work. (2) I agree, and I don't hold a grudge about it. I just mentioned it at AE to illustrate how toxic the dispute is. (3) I've already replied about that, at the talk page. (4) You weren't the offender about that threading, which is a very minor issue in the context of everything else.

I don't want to discuss ARBPIA issues here, or comment about my own personal opinions, which aren't relevant anyway. I'll just say that what's happening in the real world is very tragic, and I wish for peace for everyone. As for what happens onsite, you know that I don't always agree with you on content issues, but I want you to know that I do appreciate, very much, how you remain civil and how you try hard to be constructive amid these discussions. I don't otherwise edit in that topic area, and I probably should have taken it off my watchlist a long time ago, but for better or worse it pisses me off to see bad faith actors drive reasonable editors out of a topic area, and I can be very stubborn. My guess is that the RM will end in no consensus, and that I'll probably let things drop after that. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:19, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

OK, thank you. Best wishes. If you ever want to discuss anything else, you know where to find me. And I wasn't trying to solicit opinions from you, just volunteering them in the interest of transparency. I know you know that too. I'm putting stuff out in the open to clear the air. Thanks for playing along. Anything else, let me know. Cheers. Andre🚐 15:21, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

All good, thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:23, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Talk: People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals v. Doughney

As you participated in the 2010 poll, you should remember the result, a merger. The poll has remained without the discussion closure marker. It should have been closed in 2010 with the {{discussion-top}} and {{discussion-bottom}} to indicate the talk section was completed as a merger. The merger was carried out by SlimVirgin in 2010  ; so whatever you think about the source article, People Eating Tasty Animals, it isn't a joke edit to indicate that the discussion is over (over a decade ago), and the merger was carried out (over a decade ago). -- 65.92.247.90 (talk) 03:11, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

OK, my mistake, and I see you already reverted it back, so it's corrected. Thanks for correcting me. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:48, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

regarding fasting advocates cat

Hi Tryptofish, I understand why you reverted my edit (I didn't see the note before), and I won't contest it. However, there are a number of medical doctors who advocate fasting listed here who don't belong in either the pseudoscientific category or the researchers category (usually they are well versed in the work of researchers and have the scientific background to support their interest). So I'm going to create another category for this specific group of doctors. I'm thinking of Medical Doctors who advocate fasting (or support fasting). It's long but specific. Then I will move the MDs there. Let me know what you think.-Classicfilms (talk) 23:55, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

P.S. I'm thinking that otherwise it's potentially a WP:BLP issue.-Classicfilms (talk) 23:56, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for understanding. (For watchers, we're talking about .) I'm going to ping Psychologist Guy, who created the category and pays close attention to the subject area. Basically, I agree with that approach. The only concern that I can think of is whether an MD who is not a researcher but who makes public pronouncements about the medical benefits of fasting is really not engaging in pseudoscience. There's a difference between reducing caloric intake and actually fasting. I appreciate the BLP issue, but if there is solid sourcing it's not necessarily a BLP violation. I'll also welcome any other of my talk page participants to offer their takes on this question. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Got it. MDs read research on many subjects and apply it to to their clinical work. For example, if an MD recommends a vegetarian diet because the research indicates that it is healthy, is that pseudoscience? I appreciate that this is a subject open to debate, so perhaps what I will do is take the cat off of MDs in general which basically will solve the problem.-Classicfilms (talk) 00:18, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

There are MDs who make public recommendations when it's not what the research indicates. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:21, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

True, but again this is the case in many areas related to health, so it feels a little like WP:OR if we apply this issue to one area of health and not another. Again I think we run into WP:BLP here. Though I get the basic issue that is being addressed.-Classicfilms (talk) 00:25, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

It's not OR if there are reliable secondary sources that say that a particular MD is a quack. Since you've started off by asking me, I'd be more comfortable if you would wait and see if anyone else replies, before taking action with recategorization. I'm not that familiar with the topic area. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:31, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Sure, that's fine. Or we can move this to the cat talk page. -Classicfilms (talk) 00:34, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I almost reverted the category, but since a discussion is taking place will address it here. Fasting, either a daily fast or a longer fast, is certainly not pseudoscience. I've known fasters, and those who advocate fasting, and since 1988 have done a 14-17 hour daily fast, etc. Highly recommended. I started doing that immediately upon learning something which may or may not be accurate (Swami Satchidananda wrote that a daily 14 hour fast gives seven hours of digestion followed by seven hours of the same organs working on toxic cleansing) but made sense. In any case, fasting works on several levels (and saves money on late night munchies). But pseudoscience? Doesn't seem an accurate descriptor, although some may disagree. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:36, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

All the people in the fasting advocates category were nearly all naturopaths and others promoting pseudoscientific views about fasting (it can cure all diseases etc), they were not research scientists. The fasting researchers category is for actual nutritional researchers, scientists and historians who have done basic research or clinical studies on fasting which is not pseudoscience . There's obviously a big difference between someone like Francis Gano Benedict who was studying fasting in a laboratory and publishing under peer review than Wallace Wattles who was writing nonsense about fasting invoking mystical powers. It's best to keep the researchers and scientists in one category whilst all the people making pseudoscientific claims about fasting in another. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:47, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

What about those who advocate for fasting who are not professionals in the field. The before mentioned Swami Satchidananda for example, would he qualify or be lumped in with pseudoscience? A thin line? Randy Kryn (talk) 00:54, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Swami Satchidananda had some sensible things to say about diet but he was also a believer in Mucoid plaque and believed in something similar to colon cleansing. I believe his views on fasting were pseudoscience although I could be wrong. I did a lot of research into historical fasting and all I found was that it was heavily associated with alternative medicine claims, there is a good historical paper about it . I used to be interested in documenting alternative fringe diets but it doesn't really interest me anymore. If you want to remove any mention of pseudoscience from fasting advocates category, it wouldn't bother me. I guess you could just use the category to add anyone who is an advocate. Historically I have never come across a non-pseudoscientific fasting advocate, the problem with the topic is all the extreme claims that come with it. Psychologist Guy (talk) 01:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

So to clarify, are we all in agreement to remove "pseudoscience" from the fasting advocates category? Or do you want to wait for more possible input from other editors? I'm fine to wait.-Classicfilms (talk) 14:17, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Psychologist Guy about this. A lot of these pages, though perhaps not all, are properly described as pseudoscience. I also think that this discussion has grown to something that should not be at my user talk page. The options are either the category talk page or WP:CSD, and in either case, I will want to have a neutral notice at WT:MED. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:20, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good. I just move the discussion to the Category talk page.-Classicfilms (talk) 17:30, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Category talk:Fasting advocates. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh, damn!

Lourdes: . And I supported both their RfAs, although at least I'm in a lot of good company. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Hopefully goes for the sock-to-admin threepeat! Randy Kryn (talk) 00:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I saw that last week and am honestly still digesting it. It's been brought up a little in some conversations we've both been involved in though. Everything else at hand aside, I think it's safe to say no one expected that. KoA (talk) 00:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh, yeah. I honestly had forgotten about it, but the folks at the website that dare not speak its name reminded me that I once said this: . Now I feel better about my judgement about Lourdes. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:56, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

On logging in today, I'm in a much better mood, because of something completely unrelated: this. Rather esoteric, but something that took up way too much of my editing time recently. And it came out the right way, despite the efforts of WP:OWNers and POV pushers. It should have come out that way, but I had no confidence that it would. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:15, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Gone fishin'

I'm going to be away from Misplaced Pages November 10–16 while attending the Society for Neuroscience meeting in Washington, DC. (A much-needed break!) I'll respond to stuff here when I get back. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:41, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Safe travels. Looking forward to the debriefing. Viriditas (talk) 22:52, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

You need real "Gone fishin'" and telling us how that time by the water was for a real break. Much better if you didn't catch any. But wishing you the near-best thing on your conference.!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by North8000 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Welcome back. So let's get right to it: how was the food? Viriditas (talk) 20:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Right now, I'm exhausted, so I'm focusing on whether there's anything urgent for me to respond to, but I'll have a non-brief debrief in the next few days, including a restaurant guide. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:51, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I've just finished my online follow-ups to the meeting materials (such as finding the things for the authors who didn't make it in person). Tomorrow, I'm going to send various emails to other people, then after that, I'll be able to turn my attention to whatever I'm going to say here. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:02, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

No biggie. Just mostly curious (as always) as to what personally caught your attention and what you see as significant progress and development towards greater understanding in the discipline in particular, but also in terms of interdisciplinary applications, connections, and synthesis with other disparate fields. I realize, of course, that specialization serves a necessary purpose, as there is far too much going on for any one person to understand or comprehend without narrowing focus and attention, but there's also a need to understand how these insights apply at higher levels of both abstraction and generality. I believe, for example, that these insights are not confined to one field, but at some level apply to all of them as an interconnected whole. Viriditas (talk) 09:37, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

OK, I finally got around to this. Briefly on food, when I go to DC I always get a hotel near Dupont Circle, because there are lots of good restaurants on Connecticut Avenue and on P Street. A long time favorite of mine is Bistro du Coin, where this year I had an excellent beef bourguignon. On P Street east of the circle I found a tiny hole-in-the-wall Thai restaurant called Bua Thai that was a real find. Oh, and near my hotel was the embassy from Kazakhstan, in front of which is a statue of a warrior that is Borat-worthy. Sort of looks like the woman in this, but supposed to be a young man as a warrior, complete with falcon, and riding a white tiger.

Now to the serious stuff. There wasn't as much this year that struck me as "breakthroughs" as in some previous years, but a couple of things in specialized topics were of interest to me personally. As I've long expected, phase precession (a page I started, and a subject in which our Looie496 made important research contributions) has turned out not to be limited to theta waves and not to be limited to the hippocampus and environs. Looks like it involves multiple kinds (frequencies) of waves, and happens throughout many regions of the cerebral cortex: , . Also, the medial nucleus of the amygdala is coming to be recognized as an important brain region for things that "feel good"; for example: .

As I think about interesting things with interdisciplinary potential, there is starting to be serious interest in figuring out the neuroscience of consciousness. (Spoiler alert: no one has solved it yet, or gotten close to solving it, but people are thinking seriously about how to frame the question.) There was a symposium about this: . Researchers are looking at things centered on whether there is some sort of minimum quantity of neurons firing that can give rise to consciousness. One approach is using brain imaging of people waking up from general anesthesia, to see what sorts of brain regions become active. Another is asking volunteers to look at a screen and indicate when they can discern an image on it. Typically, this means working with a photo of a human face as the image, and starting out with it very pixilated, then progressively bringing it into focus until it can be recognized as a face. An interesting early finding was discussed by Christof Koch: if you ask the study subject to indicate when the face comes into view by pressing a button, most of the brain regions that get activated are actually being activated by the decision to press the button and the process of doing so. Therefore, researchers are asking subjects just to watch the image come into view, but not to do anything, and studying the much more subtle brain activity changes that happen at the time the face becomes visible. It's a tricky business, being sure that one is measuring what one thinks one is measuring! --Tryptofish (talk) 00:00, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Tracking pageviews by user?

I don't know where to post this, so for the time being I'll post it here. While logged in, I briefly looked at a page at the Arabic Misplaced Pages. Nothing particularly fancy, just looking at how their page on something looks, in comparison to our page. Our page, in this case, is Osteopathy, so not a political subject (to my knowledge). Importantly, I did not make any edits, just looked briefly, then came back here. Within seconds, I got an automated welcome message at my talk page at Ar WP. I ran it through Google Translate, and it was a very vanilla-flavored welcome message like the ones we often give to new users.

But I hadn't made any edits. I just looked. I know that Wikimedia tracks the numbers of page views, but this had to have been a tracking of views by user. And that strikes me as very disconcerting. WTF? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Looks like the answer is fairly simple. Check out your global account info. You triggered the "attached on" log, which likely showed up on enhanced recent changes, either giving a patroller an opportunity to welcome a new user or also triggering an automatic welcome. Not sure exactly how "attached to" does this, but my guess is that happens when you login globally and visit the other wiki. Viriditas (talk) 22:30, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for finding that. Is there a way to turn that off in my user preferences? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:16, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Actually, I think the answer to my own question is "no". And I probably don't need to continue to be alarmed. This doesn't look like it was really tracking what I was looking it, but rather tracking the fact that I looked for the first time at that particular WP. Presumably, it does not track every subsequent view of any particular project. It still feels wrong to me that "attachment" occurs simply on viewing, without depending on making a first edit, however. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:29, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

My memory is hazy, but there was a discussion about how this works when they first rolled out the unified login (SUL). There's notes from Brion Vibber about how it works here. Search for the string "attached" and read through each instance. You triggered it automatically when you logged in through the SUL and visited the Arabic wiki. Viriditas (talk) 23:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks again for finding all this helpful information. I'm rather amused by the facetious references to "evil plans" in the phabricator post. I can see that it's basically a matter of "login continues" as someone browses from one project to another, and I'm fine with that. I can see from my global account info that it correctly shows me as "attached", but with zero edits made there. I still think it's kind of creepy that simply viewing (aka "attaching") would have shown up on enhanced recent changes, because that's putting an awful lot of work onto "enhanced", since I never made a "recent change" in the sense of an edit. But I guess that I'm satisfied that this wasn't a matter of tracking and keeping a record of page views, so I'm not going to worry about it any further. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:21, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

You may be interested in meta:User:Krinkle/Tools/Global_SUL, a tool that automatically visits all wikis once so that future visits are not permanently recorded at Special:CentralAuth/Tryptofish. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:31, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Wow, I did it, and it just finished running, and I'm now "attached" to 828 wikis. If anyone else is thinking of doing it, you have to add the code to your global.js, not common.js. I've gotten a dozen welcoming emails (clearly bot-generated) in a plethora of languages and alphabets that I don't even recognize. Not sure if it was worth it, but certainly an interesting journey. Makes me appreciate what the Stewards have to do. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:58, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

ACE in the whole

• User:Tryptofish/ACE2023. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:22, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

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AN mis-click

Thanks for quickly reverting my mis-click. I honestly hadn't realized I had done it, and usually I've got the easy revert links/buttons set to require a confirmation / edit summary of some type. Appreciate it! Ravensfire (talk) 22:43, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

No problem. As it happens, I was just then looking to read that comment, couldn't find it, and looked at the edit history. Believe me, we all make mistakes. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:46, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

That's the primary reason I requested to have my rollback right removed. I was misclicking at least once a day, and in many cases, I wasn't even aware of it. It was also far more common on mobile while viewing desktop-style through Safari. Now without the right, it never happens. Viriditas (talk) 22:54, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Going to hospital for surgery

In a couple of days, on Dec. 12, I'll be going into the hospital for surgery, so starting then, I'll be away from editing for an undetermined amount of time. This is for the lumbar radiculopathy, aka pinched nerve in my lower back, that I mentioned above, in #Health scare, and was delayed by the deep vein thrombosis I talked about there, but can be done now. It feels good to me to describe it in some detail here, and I think it might be interesting to some talk page participants.

Trigger warning for people who are uncomfortable with descriptions of surgery.

I've had an MRI and some other testing, all of which shows that my lowest lumbar (L5) and top sacral (S1) vertebrae have gotten pressed too tightly together on the left side, creating pressure on the nerve that leaves the spinal cord between them. The pinching of that nerve has been causing a lot of pain in my left leg and left thigh, and conservative treatments (things other than surgery) have all been exhausted. (That's putting it mildly. I'm really fed up with this.) The surgery will be designed to fix that, and should provide a permanent cure.

This is major surgery, and the process is kind of scary, but I'm feeling good about it and looking forward to having it done, because I really want and need that cure. I'll be in a major US teaching hospital, one whose name people in the US would readily recognize. My surgeon is the chief of neurosurgery in the spine medicine department, and I feel good about my interactions with him over multiple meetings. Amazingly, if everything goes as expected, it's going to be outpatient surgery, so that I will go home the same day.

They are going to start by injecting me with midazolam, which is my favorite (most enjoyable) iv drug. Then they will put me under general anesthesia. After that, they are going to put me on a breathing tube, and inject me with a paralyzing drug, that will stop my breathing and any other movements. The breathing tube will breath for me. The idea is that I can't be moving because the surgery is going to be so delicate.

I'll be lying face-down, and the surgeon will make a small incision on my back, a little more than one inch, where the nerve is being pinched. After that, the surgery will take place under an operating microscope, something I find amazing. The surgeon will expose the backbone where those two bones are, and locate the nerve. He will then perform a microscopic laminotomy, to make a small hole through the back of one of the vertebrae and see inside the backbone. He will then perform a discectomy, or more precisely, a microdiscectomy through that opening. The idea there is to remove the parts of the spinal disc that are pressing on the nerve. He will also perform a foraminotomy to remove a little bit of each bone on the left side, where the bones are touching the nerve.

That's it! The surgeon told me that this operation gives immediate relief from the kind of pain I've been having, and he is confident that it will work. So I'll be editing here through the 11th, and I'll get back here some unknown number of days after that, when I'm sure that I'm feeling better. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:59, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Fascinating! I hope that everything goes as smooth as silk, and that your recovery is quick and complete. Cullen328 (talk) 00:13, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Cullen! --Tryptofish (talk) 00:16, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

happened to see this, so I'm wishing you good luck and a swift recovery. Andre🚐 00:21, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Andrevan! --Tryptofish (talk) 00:29, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Best of luck to you and the whole care team. Hope to see you back soon! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:31, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 01:33, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Anything like this I find scary. But I've had two friends recently go through seriously complex procedures I'd never heard of, one experimental, with successful total remission of cancers, and are symptom free. They really are making progress in the medical field -- nearly sciencefictiony. Thank you for sharing this. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:38, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Yes, it really has the potential to be scary, what with being paralyzed during the operation and "breathing" artificially, and with one small slip and my left leg could get paralyzed. But I very much feel confident that nothing bad will happen, and I can't wait to be done with the pain. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:43, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Here's hoping for a smooth and flawless procedure and a quick recovery. Viriditas (talk) 09:37, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Viriditas! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:47, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Very best wishes, Trypto. I'm sure all will go well. I've been fishing around for an amusing link, but I can't find one. Kind regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:14, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Martin! I'll find that link, when I get back. (Cue link to this!) --Tryptofish (talk) 21:47, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

sure thing, dude: Martinevans123 (talk) 22:50, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Speaking of backs, I've been thinking. Neurosurgery is commonly referred to as "brain surgery". Since this is going to be getting down into my sacrum, perhaps that means that my brain is in my rear end. I know that there is no shortage of editors who would agree with that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:59, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Hey, I resemble that remark! Wishing you the best - I am confident this procedure will work out fabulously. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 11:15, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, JoJo! --Tryptofish (talk) 18:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Best wishes Trypto! In bocca al lupo {{u|Gtoffoletto}}   11:16, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Gtoffoletto, and crepi il lupo! Much as I said to Leyo, below, I appreciate this very much, under the circumstances. That's very kind of you. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:25, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Wish you the best on that. Come back soon! North8000 (talk) 20:37, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, North! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:42, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

All will be well, I think and hope. Take care. KJP1 (talk) 21:28, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, KJP1! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:34, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I wish you good luck and a quick recovery. I will have surgery a few days later. --Leyo 21:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much for saying that, Leyo, especially under the circumstances of the ongoing ArbCom case. It's a wonderful thing about Misplaced Pages, that editors can set aside their differences, to recognize that we are all real people. And I wish you, in turn, the very best of outcomes in your own surgery, and a rapid and happy return here. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:42, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words! I'm not so sure about the "return here" part. --Leyo 21:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Wishing you luck and a painless (well, as painless as this one can get) recovery. My dad went through major back disorder and related issues for decades, and he still commented pretty often on how he wishes he had his surgery done earlier. Hopefully you end up being able to say the same thing in the coming weeks/months. KoA (talk) 00:28, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, KoA, and may whatever happens here at Misplaced Pages be as painless as possible for you! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:25, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

• Hope all goes well and that you're (ahem) 'back' here soon. Bon courage (talk) 07:34, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks, BC, and my back thanks you as well! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:25, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Best of luck and best of health. I can't think of anything particularly elegant to say here, so I will cheat and echo everyone above (and below) me. HouseBlaster 00:16, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:00, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I'm back. The surgery seems to have been a success, and I'm starting to feel better. I've waited until now to post here, because it's taken a while for all the medications to wear off, and I don't want to post anything here until I'm thinking clearly again (yes, I know some editors believe I've never thought clearly, wink, wink). I'll still want to ease back into things here, but I do want to let people watching here know that I'm alright. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:00, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

And there you go! Now if only there was a surgical intervention for effecting painless editing on Misplaced Pages... JoJo Anthrax (talk) 21:09, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure a lobotomy would do that. But no need for surgery. The drugs that have been inside my body for the past two days (truly a pharmacopaeia (or however one spells that)) would make anything painless, although edits made under their influence might well have consequences that would eventually be painful. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:13, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Glad you're doing better. Are you a Stranger Things fan? There's a fascinating depiction of the use of shock therapy in the series (the procedure itself is supposed to take place in the early 1970s) that is used to essentially lobotomize one of the characters. One wonders how accurate it is or if such a result is purely fiction. Viriditas (talk) 22:31, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I can highly recommend a lobotomy. I even tried "Wiki Cold Turkey" for a year. But just like you, I came back. Alas. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:31, 14 December 2023 (UTC) pass those tissues, "sob"...

There's the problem - you should have used this turkey. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 08:15, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, I see I've come back to the same Misplaced Pages I left a few days earlier, wink, wink. Viriditas, you should know me well enough by now to know that I'm not a Stranger Things fan, although I'm a fan of plenty of things that are strange. Lobotomy is simply pseudoscience, often used to advance bigoted beliefs, not unlike forced sterilization. As for shock therapy, the neuroscientist here will shock you by saying that I bet (warning, what follows is OR and citation needed) that psychedelics work the same way that shock therapy does, just a bit less crudely. Ever unplug an electronic device, wait a few seconds, and plug it back in, and the device appears "fixed"? (No pun on forced sterilization intended.) In this case, the electronic device is just the human brain.

Now as for the rest of you wild turkeys, I'll have you know that I've been doing oxycodone straight up, none of that weak stuff fer me. But I'm done with it, no more post-operative pain. One of the, well, stranger things, on the day after surgery was that I kept getting "zaps" of pain – I'm talking about lightening bolts going down my left leg – lasting only a second or less, the apparent result of the nerve continuing to be irritated for a while after the surgery. And I kid you not about this: they closed the incision with Dermabond. I dare you to see what that redirects to! I dare you! It's crazy! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:20, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Omg really?? More sticky than Rudy Giuliani's hair colour! I was in hospital last week. I asked the nurse if I could do my own stitches. She said "suture self". Martinevans123 (talk) 22:37, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

My doctor told me I had to stop masturbating. I asked him why. He said, so he could examine me. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:40, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

This explains a lot. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:48, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

All you guys keep me in stitches. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:55, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Isn't that the surgeon's job?--Gronk Oz (talk) 02:02, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, but these WP editors look like they could stand to earn some extra cash. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Psychedelics aren't like shock therapy AFAIK; classical psychedelics activate the 5HT2A receptor. My theory is that it's similar to dreaming, or being a child. It's related to serotonin. The psilocybin studies that I've read say that it helps form connections and neuroplasticity, not necessarily by zapping, but by turning off filters and letting more data in. There are some interesting evolutionary theories that visual acuity is increased, it adaptive for hunter-gathering, leading to the development of culture/mythology. In a world without artificial light and not a lot of food, sleep, you start to hallucinate more often.

Anyway, speaking of which, glad your surgery was uneventful, when I read the description, I realized I could not bring myself to do it if I needed it. Also, do you know the one about the doctor who was testifying about an autopsy. The lawyer asked him, did you check for a pulse first, he said no. Then how did you know the patient was dead. Well, his brain was in a jar on my desk. But is it possible he could have been alive? Yes, the patient might still be alive, and maybe practicing law somewhere. Andre🚐 23:25, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the good wishes. (Actually, it was a little eventful, but only in terms of them making me wait a long time before it began. And don't get me started on getting that oxycodone Rx filled. F—k the war on drugs, as well as medical insurance in the U.S of A.)

But, now, now, now, young editor, don't argue with Dr. Tryptofish about neuropharmacology. Believe me, I know about serotonin. And I know about those studies. In fact, you can turn off those filters by what I described, about unplugging. (What I said about zapping, was something else, and nothing therapeutic about that!) The popular writer Andrew Solomon wrote an excellent book about depression, in which he likens depression to a demon. (What I've been talking about here is the use of psychedelics for depression, not for the lulz. And I know about depression, too.) I would liken that demon to a microphone hog, who keeps telling the depressive brain that things are hopeless, while not letting rational rebuttals (as in cognitive therapy) get a word in edgewise. Conventional antidepressants work by slowing the demon down, so good thoughts get heard. Neural oscillations are very sticky, like what Martin said about Rudy's hair gel. Once they become "habits of thought", they are hard to unlearn. But if you briefly unplug the oscillator, then plug it back in, that's a way to leave the noonday demon stuttering. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:55, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I've been thinking about what you said, about "when I read the description, I realized I could not bring myself to do it if I needed it." After a fashion, that makes two of us! On one level, what was I thinking, agreeing to let them stop my breathing? However, I have a good understanding of how that stuff works, as a scientist, and I know that there is an excellent success rate. (Here's a scary thought: one has a better likelihood of emerging unharmed from the surgery that I had, than from driving an automobile every day for a year.) A significant consideration for me was that I am fortunate to be able to have had the surgery at a world-class hospital. I probably would not have agreed to it at a smaller, less prominent hospital.

But here's the real thing: pain. Unless you've lived with the kind of pain I had, you cannot know how motivating it becomes to make it go away. They do this thing in health care, where they ask you to rate the pain on a scale from 1 to 10. Often for me, it was 10. And it was always worst in the evening and at night, when I was trying to go to sleep. The symptoms started in June, and followed a pattern of getting worse over time. So picture going more than 6 months with very bad sleep, and pain going from terrible to even worse. (Oddly, I could also go for extended periods during the day with no pain, before it would hit. If anyone's wondering, that's when I would edit here.) From June to August, I couldn't get anyone to take it sufficiently seriously, because it's very common for people to get a so-called "slipped disc" that just goes away with time, with minimal treatment. During August, they had begun to run out of minimal treatments, and they began to believe me when I kept telling them that this didn't feel like something minor that would just go away. So they had me get an MRI, and woops! I had been telling them the truth all along. (I'll omit, here, a lengthy listing of all the things that didn't work.) Percocet worked, but I quickly became tolerant to it. An epidural steroid injection worked for a while, but then wore off. By September, I had gotten a referral to the neurosurgeon who would eventually operate on me. He wanted to try every possible alternative before putting me through surgery, so he convinced me to have one more epidural injection. That one worked better than the first, but it also (apparently) gave me deep vein thrombosis, which could have killed me. They put me on Xarelto, which cured the DVT, but forced the surgery to be put off until this past week (because one cannot have this kind of surgery while taking a blood thinner). So after all that, I was far beyond desperate to have the surgery. And as of now, I'm very glad that I did.

By the way, I found out from reading my post-op medical records that they also had a radiologist in the operating room, which I didn't know ahead of time. They apparently had an X-ray machine in/under/beside? the operating table, and were using real-time X-ray images to decide where to make the incision. I remember that just before I went under from the anesthesia, that I saw a big screen on the wall with what looked like a full-torso X-ray of a backbone, and thinking, "I wonder if that's my backbone?" --Tryptofish (talk) 19:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Sounds like a pretty impressive set-up. But did they have the machine that goes "ping"?? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:48, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Dunno, probably. Would you like me to upload my X-rays to Commons? My gown was open in the back. (Martin runs screaming in terror from the room.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Trypto, please tell us if you really are in a jar (and possibly practicing law somewhere) and if so, which brain we should be listening to. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:43, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Well of course I'm in a jar. On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog, a fish, or in a jar. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for reaching out there, dude. That's a big relief. Was afraid for a moment you had regained human form or, worse still, had become a real lawyer. Martinevans123 (talk) 00:09, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

How dare you compare me to an invertebrate! I'll have you know that I have a backbone, and I've even had somebody drill a hole in it! sniff, sniff --Tryptofish (talk) 00:16, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

that's quite a story. I'm glad it all worked out for the best. Andre🚐 20:19, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Although off-topic for this thread, I'm eye-rolling to see that someone I told to eff off of my talk the other day advised you and another editor in a toxic topic area to have a Gentleman's Agreement. Tin ear alert. (But I'm glad that you and that other editor seem to have worked things out.) --Tryptofish (talk) 21:12, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Viriditas, you should know me well enough by now to know that I'm not a Stranger Things fan

You're right, but I think you should be. You would love the show, especially its foray into weird science. Reminds me a lot of what Fringe tried to do in the 2000s, and in some ways, it covers the same themes, with the only difference being its setting in the 1980s, which is brilliantly done. The thing is, I don't watch a lot of television (very little actually), so I try to make the most of it when I do. Viriditas (talk) 22:16, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Myself, I'm very into old movies. As it happens, alas, I've just made an urgent MD appointment, because the swelling in my leg suddenly came back, suggesting that I'm back in the DVT club. Gotta go now. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:24, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Wishing you well. Viriditas (talk) 22:32, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! After several hours in the hospital, I just got home. Back on Xarelto, sure enough. --Tryptofish (talk) 06:14, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

How are you feeling? Looking at the page for Rivaroxaban, it says it will be available as a generic in 2024. Question: what does the current research on moderate alcohol intake say? When you do a google search for it, it's somewhat funny. It says alcohol in moderation may thin the blood, and just under that it say alcohol in moderation may cause clotting. Have they made up their mind yet? Viriditas (talk) 20:21, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks so much for asking! I got home from the hospital very late last night, and didn't get much sleep, but overall, I feel OK-ish, under the circumstances. Getting back on that med is really all I need to feel safe from the kinds of things that could go very, very badly, so I'm currently not worried. Being in a hospital ER (different hospital than the one I recently had surgery in) is certainly a weird experience. Shortly before I left, a woman with a child who was clearly in terrible pain arrived, and the howling in pain is still giving me the creeps. (And for the 1 AM taxi ride home, my taxi driver loudly talked at me about the weirdest Q-anon kinds of stuff. Told me the secret to good health is to never take medicine. And me an emeritus professor of pharmacology. But I behaved myself, and the driver acted like he was my best friend for life when I got out of the cab.) Anyway, about alcohol and clotting, I'd have to do a literature search to answer that. When these things are contradictory from one source to the next, they probably mean that the effects are not very dramatic to begin with. Myself, I use alcohol in moderation, and don't intend to change that. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I am happy to hear you are in good spirits and are feeling good (a great, uplifting song that you may enjoy listening to at your leisure). I know exactly what you mean about the sound of howling pain. Sometimes those sounds can be "sticky". As you are likely aware, there is brain circuitry that allows sounds to act as triggers. The sound of a child crying, for example, in a lactating mother is thought to release oxytocin leading to the production of breast milk. My guess is that there are a lot of these kinds of triggers going on that we aren't aware of at all. As for the taxi driver and the QAnon stuff, I'm sure you weren't in the mood for it, but it's sometimes fun to ask them questions and see where the pretzel logic goes. I've found, however, that they don't like that, and tend to get upset when forced to self-reflect on their own ideas, so it's probably a good thing that you didn't do that. I hope you enjoy the weekend. Viriditas (talk) 20:56, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Oh, and yes it's shockingly expensive, because it's still on patent, but fortunately, I have excellent insurance. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:53, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

• All the best for your recovery! Johnbod (talk) 22:58, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks, Johnbod! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:00, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

• Wow - my head is spinning. I'm sorry you had to go through that, I'm glad it went well, I'm amazed that you could be home so quickly and that what used to be extensive surgery is now so minutely focussed, and I'm grateful that you took the time to talk us all through the process. Mostly I am optimistic, looking forward to a full recovery and relief from those years of pain and restriction. What a New Year it will be!--Gronk Oz (talk) 02:02, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks, Gronk Oz! Yes, it's really amazing how they did that procedure. Thanks for the good wishes. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Thanks for the updates, glad to hear it went well and you're recovering nicely. Things can get a bit heated in this place sometimes and it's important to for us all to be reminded now and again that there is a "person behind the keyboard." Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:49, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks, Pawnkingthree! That's so very true what you say, about the importance of remembering that we are all real people (or fish!). --Tryptofish (talk) 18:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• Wonderful news! Atsme 💬 📧 13:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks, Atsme! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

• I had a follow-up appointment with my surgeon today, and I'm doing very well. I asked him to tell me details of what happened during the surgery, and found out something interesting (if a little ugly). He found (under the microscope) that a fragment of a ligament had gotten where it should not have been, and had become calcified, making it bone-hard. And it had gotten positioned where it was scraping against the nerve. Obviously, he removed it. No wonder I had so much pain! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:30, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Tomorrow (Friday), I'll be going back to that same hospital, for another procedure. Since a few months ago, I've had some ongoing problems with blood clots in my left leg, and I've agreed with my doctors that we should do something to deal with it, for good. It's a much less major surgery than the one I had on my spinal cord, and I'll just be there a few hours before going home. The anesthesia will be much, much less than last time. It will just be local anesthesia, along with a mild sedative that I expect to enjoy (woo-hoo!). They will inject me with an anti-clotting medication, and a vascular surgeon will make a very small incision near my ankle. He will thread a long, narrow, tube-like instrument into my great saphenous vein, using ultrasound to visualize where the probe goes. As he moves it up the vein, towards the knee, he will eject more local anesthetic as it goes along. When he gets to the location where the small veins that branch off from it, and where the clots have been forming due to too-slow blood flow, he will use radiofrequency thermal ablation to close-off those small veins. Not a big deal, but I'll probably take a bit of time off from editing. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:41, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I hope the procedure goes well and you emerge healthier and happier post-surgery. Viriditas (talk) 22:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Tryp, you are already in my songs of healing and wholeness but I will send them your way more often at least until your return. I will see you then, and make sure to get plenty of rest. --ARoseWolf 15:29, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Best wishes for a speedy and healthy recovery. Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 22:44, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks all, very, very much. (And Buster7, that was a superb edit summary!) I'm back, just checking in quickly, and everything went well. And yes, I need some rest now. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:35, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Good luck on the recovery and hopefully good prognosis afterwards. KoA (talk) 17:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm feeling much better today. The bandages are off, and it looks like a success. (By the way, I kind of like writing about the procedural details of these things, and I want to correct an anatomical detail. I said above that the surgeon would make the incision near the ankle. He actually ended up making it just below the knee, and worked on things upward from there.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:16, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

And, earlier today, I had the follow-up imaging, which revealed that the procedure was a complete success. I now have no restrictions, and I can put it behind me. Yay! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:24, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Glad to hear. Are you heading to Disneyland? Viriditas (talk) 23:27, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I think I'm missing the joke? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Linked to it above. It's a famous ad campaign. When famous people are successful at something, Disney asks them "Where are you going next?" They then reply, "I'm going to Disneyland!" Viriditas (talk) 23:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh. rimshot --Tryptofish (talk) 23:42, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Try the veal! Viriditas (talk) 23:43, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

What a tryp you've been on! Your health journey has been a bit scary. I haven't read every word above, but some of it is in my specialty area as a PT (and also PA). I understand most of that stuff, even though I've been away from it for a number of years. I wrote the spinal disc herniation article, which has grown substantially. Was there ever talk of trying a spinal fusion on your lower back? In some cases, that's a good option. Getting older sucks, but think of the alternative. We can complain about being old, but getting older is sort of a good thing, unless one lives with chronic pain that defies treatment. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:50, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

In my case, there was almost no disc herniation, which is what delayed the correct diagnosis. Spinal fusion wouldn't have worked in my case. It was a matter of removing a calcified ligament that was scraping against the L5-S1 nerve, and doing a foraminotomy. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:15, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure your surgeon made the right decisions. It's very touchy stuff, and great skill is used. I really admire those surgeons. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Happy Holidays

		Happy Holidays
		Hello, I wanted to be the first to wish you the very best during the holidays. I hope all goes well with your upcoming surgery. I have come to respect you and your advice. You are a valued editor and your opinion matters to me. I hope we get to work together for a long time. Lightburst (talk) 02:37, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Lightburst, I appreciate that very much, and I wish you happy holidays, too. By the way, I already had the surgery, and I'm back now (and even my back is back now). --Tryptofish (talk) 18:31, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

For what it's worth

I don't mind your neutral. I don't think people should be afraid to share what they think and you did it politely, so I really don't mind. RfAs are ultimately about trust, afterall. I do hope that I'm able to remedy whatever you find concerning about me sometime in the future but if I don't, that's all right. People are entitled to their feelings and shouldn't be ashamed to have them. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 05:41, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

It's worth a lot. And I appreciate your being gracious, both here at my talk page and at the RfA. There's probably nothing that you need to do by way of remedy. On the very small chance that my hunch was on to something, then there's nothing for you to do, and on the far greater chance that I was reading something into nothing, then the only needed remedy is my apology to you. Thanks again for being so understanding and reasonable. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:28, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Invitation

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Happy Christmas

Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda.
Happy Christmas and Best wishes for a peaceful 2024. "Csordapásztorok"
Ring-a-ling-a-ling-a-ding-dong-ding! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:52, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

---

Thanks so much, Martin. And to be serious for once, it's great to have you back around. May you find plenty of vowels in the New Year! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

"O fy Nuw ffycin!" As if! lol Ysgythysgymlngwchgwch Bryggy, maybe? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:45, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I think Martin just told me to fuck off in Welsh... --Tryptofish (talk) 19:32, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

FBDB... "Festive Bollocks - Damned Bastard" Martinevans123 (talk) 20:14, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

That's very likely but it appears he did in a festive way. It's okay as long as it's jolly right? --ARoseWolf 20:33, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

That's him, Jolly Saint Nick Marty! Wait, what was that, about a festival of buttocks? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:52, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I did see something about buttocks in there but I just figured I read that wrong and he was talking the butt. --ARoseWolf 12:24, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

"God Save the Queen"! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:28, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Since you brought up pistols maybe we can call Ms. Daisy and get a Red Ryder BB Gun.--ARoseWolf 12:35, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I dunno. That might drive her to distraction. (Is there a place called Distraction, Alaska? If not there should be.) --Tryptofish (talk) 00:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

I wonder what it would take to name our makeshift community Distraction? I would definitely be mayor of that town, not because I am a distraction or cause a distraction, well, maybe, as long as I avoid bathing in streams and bush pilots I am okay. --ARoseWolf 13:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

"I didn't get where I am today by bathing in bush pilots!" Martinevans123 (talk) 16:16, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Close. I'd go back and edit what I said to better reflect what I meant if what I meant would make it seem more scandalous than it already does. --ARoseWolf 17:08, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Don't worry, I remember that anecdote! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:13, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Now that's Northern Exposure! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

About sums me up. They should do a remake with me as the lead character. I wouldn't even have to act just be myself. Better wait until after the thaw though. We could get several hundred episodes by reliving my life here easily. --ARoseWolf 12:06, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I could definitely see you as the Janine Turner character. (Don't dissuade me if I'm wrong!) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:01, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I will not try to not ruin this image for you in the slightest, in fact my mama (aunt) gave all of the girls debutante style lessons and she very much came from an aristocratic Italian family in Firenze, or Florence as English speaking folk call it. I am not a bush pilot though I am a dog musher which is kind of similar, and I fly a lot with our bush pilot. Might be too revealing but our luck with men is sort of a parallel too. Though none have met with unfortunate accidents, yet. Oh, there was that very regrettable incident between one boyfriend and a bear trap but I was hundreds of miles away at the time. I have been married once, and divorced, on my birthday, which is Valentines day. That sounds even worse typing it back. It wasn't official on my birthday, that is just when I had the paperwork delivered to me. So, yeah, but we are reluctantly on semi-decent terms now. Hope these truths don't dissuade your perception too much. --ARoseWolf 16:49, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

No worries. Actually, quite interesting, thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:39, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Awwwwwww. In case I find myself otherwise engaged on Feb 14... here's a little surprise in advance!! Martinevans123 (talk) 23:57, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely Fabulous, dahling! --Tryptofish (talk) 00:01, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Happy Holiday's

I wish you a very safe holiday season and blessings for the new year, Tryp. You are appreciated as an editor, a member of this community and someone I consider a friend. I literally could write pages of reasons why I value you so much. You have had and continue to have a positive impact on me, personally, and I've seen the same in your interactions with others. Keep singing your Song. I have seen each note it is beautiful to my ears. --ARoseWolf 14:12, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much for saying that! It means a lot to me. And all the best wishes to you, as well! --Tryptofish (talk) 19:33, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

December greetings

December: story · music · places

Today, I have a special story to tell, of the works of a musician born 300 years ago. - I wish you a good festive season and a peaceful New Year! -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:21, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Gerda! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:04, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Season's Greetings

		Season's Greetings
		Wishing everybody a Happy Holiday Season, and all best wishes for the New Year! The Nativity scene on the Pulpit in the Pisa Baptistery by Nicola Pisano is my Wiki-Christmas card to all for this year. Johnbod (talk) 02:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Johnbod! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:15, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!

~~~ Merry Christmas! ~~~
Joyeux Noël! ~ Buon Natale! ~ Vrolijk Kerstfeest! ~ Frohe Weihnachten!
¡Feliz Navidad! ~ Feliz Natal! ~ Καλά Χριστούγεννα! ~ Hyvää Joulua!
God Jul! ~ Glædelig Jul! ~ Linksmų Kalėdų! ~ Priecīgus Ziemassvētkus!
Häid Jõule! ~ Wesołych Świąt! ~ Boldog Karácsonyt! ~ Veselé Vánoce!
Veselé Vianoce! ~ Crăciun Fericit! ~ Sretan Božić! ~ С Рождеством!
শুভ বড়দিন! ~ 圣诞节快乐！~ メリークリスマス！~ 메리 크리스마스!
สุขสันต์วันคริสต์มาส! ~ Selamat Hari Natal! ~ Giáng sinh an lành!
Весела Коледа! ~ Meri Kirihimete!

Hello, Tryptofish! Thank you for your work to maintain and improve Misplaced Pages! Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Chris Troutman (talk) 23:08, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Spread the WikiLove and leave other users this message by adding {{subst:Multi-language Season's Greetings}}

Thanks so much, Chris! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:30, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

2024 and every year thereafter!! 🎉🥳🎊🎈🙌🏻🥂🍾🎆🎇 Atsme 💬 📧 20:25, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

And to you, too! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:41, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Retraction

It got lost in the shuffle, but my "serious distortion" comment in the EEng ANI thread was an error. I had taken "prefers the indef over a civility restriction that puts a target on his back" to be an accurate paraphrase of his statement, but it was not. I didn't see your objection to the distortion comment until ater the mess had closed. While "self-requesting an indef" wasn't an entirely accurate summary of the original statement either, it wasn't a "serious distortion", just oversimplification of a nuanced statement (suggesting that a block he'd appeal later would be better than continued community time wasted debating about him), and closer to the original than "prefers the indef over a civility restriction that puts a target on his back".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:18, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, and no worries! I appreciate your message, and I'm not at all bothered over it. As you say, the discussion had become a mess. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:55, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Sentientists

I recently came across this category . It was created by a user who runs a podcast on Sentientism. The problem is there is a lack of sourcing describing Sentientists and how to define this term. Brian Greene is in the category but there is no mention of sentientism on his article, nor most of the others. We do have an article on Sentiocentrism. The article is not well sourced and most of the sources on the article do not use the term sentientism. Per WP:OR I think the category might have to be removed. It is rare to come across any modern academic literature defining someone as a "sentientist". I was thinking about taking it to afd but wanted to ask for some advice about this. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:04, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure what to say. I'm unfamiliar with the term, which of course says more about me than about it. Have you looked to see whether it's discussed on the animal rights page? As I see it, the worst that would happen if you take it to WP:CfD (not Afd, since it's a category) would be that consensus would go towards keeping it. My suggestion is that you make sure you've done enough WP:BEFORE, and then go ahead with the CfD nom, and also leave a note about the CfD at Talk:Sentiocentrism (where I see there has been past discussion about whether or not these are two different things. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

By the way, I've seen your post at the Newkirk talk page, but didn't reply. A lot of the idiosyncrasies of these pages comes from edits from a long time ago, by editors who are no longer here. (You can see my scars from such discussions in talk page archives circa 2009–12.) A fair amount of this is stuff where I think you can feel free to be WP:BOLD. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:04, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

There are references for Sentiocentrism I will re-write the article at some point, that term is used in animal ethics literature. Unfortunately the category Sentientists is entirely WP:OR because no references describe any of the people in the category with that term. I will probably take it to afd.

Based on what I have seen, about 15-16 years ago Gary Francione was heavily inserted into animal rights articles from a bad POV. It needs to be made clear his position is a fringe one. Many articles like Tom Regan that were created a long time ago have no criticism. Any random newbie to the subject will be under the false impression that Francione's or Regan's ideas have been accepted. The animal rights article has a small "critics" section but it is mostly outdated. There are many critics of animal rights, I expanded this category . In the future I will be working in this area. WP:WPAR has many members but I am the only user who has been willing to add criticisms of animal rights. I believe this is one area that needs to be expanded for neutrality purposes. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:37, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this. When I first started editing, undoing the POV in that topic area was a major concern for me, and the problem was especially bad. If you take a look at this: , you can get an idea of what I was dealing with. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:42, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Interesting, I had little communication with SlimVirgin but I have scanned some of these articles and this user around 2009 was editing a lot of animal rights articles. They were actually active editing animal rights content as early as 2005 as seen on the Tom Regan article. It's probably a case that this user had emotional interest in the topic and did not want certain critical coverage on Misplaced Pages. I did actually email SlimVirgin once and asked them if they wanted to join WP:VAV, they never replied me. In the past I confused that user with another user Flyer22. 3 days before Flyer22 passed on she sent me an email reply telling me she wasn't joining WP:VAV because she is leaving Misplaced Pages but she hopes I continue to work on the WikiProject. It's quite hard to find neutral users in this topic area. I mostly edit historical articles that are non-controversial. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Definitely two different editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:58, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

2024

Die Zeit, die Tag und Jahre macht

Happy New Year

2024

-- Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:04, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

--Tryptofish (talk) 22:05, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

On the Main page: the person who made the pictured festival possible --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:25, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

story · music · places

Yesterday was a friend's birthday, with related music. - I'm on vacation - see places. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:45, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Re: Neural network

Regarding this, as serendipity would have it, I recently heard this criticism on an episode of Sean Carroll's podcast, but I don't think it was from a neuroscientist. IIRC, it was from someone outside that field. Viriditas (talk) 22:20, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

My reason for that edit summary is that the content is a criticism of artificial neural networks, not of the biological type. I have no opinion about whether or not it's an issue with artificial networks. (I made that edit in the context of a multi-editor effort that is trying to separate out the content of biological and artificial neural networks, so I was just removing a little more after another editor had, appropriately, removed a lot.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:25, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Understood. I just thought it was a weird coincidence that I recently heard it and saw your edit. Viriditas (talk) 22:29, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

BTW, if you don't listen to Sean Carroll's podcast, take a look at the episodes and see if any might interest you. It's particularly fun when he strikes a groove with a guest and they get into rapid-fire banter back and forth, as if they are old friends at a cocktail party. Viriditas (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Re: Sun in an Empty Room

I just added a section on "Neuroscience" to Sun in an Empty Room, but I would appreciate your eyes on this. In addition to this, Livingstone writes, "It is not only our perceptions of lightness and color that are local and opponent; virtually every sensory experience we have is computed by local opponent mechanisms. That is because the basic circuit of every part of our brains is the same and uses the same local inhibitory feedback mechanisms. You might think that by definition the three-dimensional, or spatial, organization of a scene would be a global property of that scene. But actually the computations about depth begin in early visual areas with small local receptive fields. You are probably aware that illuminated objects cast shadows, but if you look at a lot of paintings from different centuries, in Eastern art nobody seems to have noticed shadows until quite recently, and in Western art, Leonardo da Vinci seems to have been the first to make a systematic study of how shadows really look. For centuries artists have ignored the laws of physics, and our visual systems don’t much care. Because computations about depth from shading and illumination of objects begin with local computations, images do not have to be globally consistent in order to generate a satisfactory sensation of depth and shadow. Our visual systems do not bother to ascertain whether the laws of physics are being obeyed, because it is generally a safe assumption that they are, and even if they weren’t being obeyed there is not much use in knowing about it. So, despite the current enthusiasm for veridical light rays bouncing Newtonianly off various objects, artists can safely ignore the laws of physics, sometimes with odd consequences. If you look mindfully at medieval paintings, you are likely to find shadows that make no sense, even though they adequately fulfill their purpose of suggesting a light source and a solid body." I wasn't sure how to add or represent this part in the section I have. If you think you can add any of this to what I already have, please do so. Viriditas (talk) 21:08, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: if you want to get credit for a DYK, feel free to formulate an ALT and add it to Template:Did you know nominations/Sun in an Empty Room. Viriditas (talk) 21:32, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I think the wording of what you wrote is fine from a neuroscience perspective. I've added some links that I think will help (and I also think that more scientific detail would be undue). I like the DYK hook that you wrote. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:04, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Hopper is one of my favorite artists, by the way. Also, when I was an undergrad, Livingstone was a grad student, and was my TA in a course that I took. I remember her being rude to me, but I'm pretty sure she's mellowed since then. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:06, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

The connections between Hopper and filmmaking are quite interesting. He was not just a fan of the cinema, but it seems that his frequent attendance at the movies also influenced his style (haven't seen anything written about this) which led his paintings in turn to influence film directors and others (lots about his influence on Hitchcock, for example). What do you make of the controversy on Livingstone's biography page? Viriditas (talk) 23:13, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I didn't know about that until now. I'd have to know more about the details of the specific monkey studies, to have an opinion on the ethics of that particular research. Hubel and Weisel, with whom she trained, did very important research, with real health benefits, using similar methods. I'm a defender of animal research, so long as it's done according to the law, and with proper oversight (see Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee). --Tryptofish (talk) 22:25, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I can't remember if we discussed this before or not, but I recall, several years ago, reading about how a lot of traditional animal testing could be replicated using computer models, but it's been too long for me to remember the details. Have you heard anything about this, or do you think it's still mostly science fiction? Viriditas (talk) 08:41, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Computational biology is definitely something useful. But a computer can only tell you about whatever has been inputted into it (even true for advanced AI, which just gets a lot more input). "Garbage in, garbage out", so to speak. So if you want to find out what actually happens in living systems, you have to examine living systems, and often this means testing in a living system. One of my earliest (and most trying) content disputes during my wiki-career was over trying to make the animal testing versus animal rights content here NPOV. (Some further details about that in #Sentientists, a short way above.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:20, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Re: linking in hook

I removed the link to Edward Hopper in the hook due to several discussions we've had about this on the DYK talk page. Basically, what happens is, whenever the link to the primary article hook comes after a preceding link, the preceding link steals views away from the hook, which defeats the purpose of the hook in the first place. The point of DYK is to increase views to the linked hook, not to the other links. Viriditas (talk) 23:38, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Here's a link to the original discussion. Linking to a preceding link resulted in what can conceivably be the worst possible result—nobody visited the article I wrote. So, I learned my lesson. Viriditas (talk) 23:42, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

No problem! I didn't know about this new rule. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:12, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Part of the blame rests on my construction of the hook. If I had put more thought into it, I could have linked Edward Hopper after the article link, but the seven day deadline was rapidly approaching and I didn't have any ALTs. If you're interested, I will ask for your help creating a new Hopper hook in the next week or two, and this time create a buffer for more lead time so that there's no rush. That way, we can link to Hopper in the next hook. Viriditas (talk) 00:24, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

No big deal, as far as I'm concerned. What is more important is that you made a fine new article, thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:32, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Intermission (Hopper)

I will try to put something together later tonight. Stay on your toes! Viriditas (talk) 00:46, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Believe me, I can barely stand upright! --Tryptofish (talk) 00:47, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I have decided on Intermission (Hopper). Whenever you have time to come up with a hook, please do so. Otherwise, I will prod you for ideas after the article is created. Of course you are free to start or contribute. Viriditas (talk) 02:37, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

When you have a minute, I would appreciate it if you look into what Hopper meant when he called the woman in the painting an "egghead". This kind of slang is before my time and I'm not sure what he meant by it. My guess, based on what I've seen in terms of definitions online, is this was an old term for what we might call a "nerd" today, but I'm not sure. I think it has more academic or professorial connotations, I really don't know. I think the other reason I'm confused is because Hopper's wife said other things about the woman that make me think "egghead" means something else. It's actually a bit confusing. My guess, based on what I've read, is that he meant she was more of a bookworm, but I'm just throwing that out there. Trying to figure out what Hopper meant is not a light task. Viriditas (talk) 08:15, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Looks like according to egghead, Hopper might have been deriding her as a liberal? Viriditas (talk) 08:21, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

OK, I found a source that I think helps answer the "egghead" question (or at least gives an RS for an opinion about it): . It's annoying to scroll through, but an interesting read. It's a transcript of a radio discussion between Studs Terkel and Gail Levin (art historian), about Hopper's works. You have to scroll pretty far towards the end before coming to Intermission, but they talk about the meaning of "egghead" there. You can read for yourself what they say, but I think it goes much more towards "nerd", with a bit of "bookworm" or "absent-minded professor", than towards anything about politics. The idea they have is that the theater is a place with many people, but this one person stayed behind, deep in thought, while everyone else had gone out to the lobby. (Levin speculates that it is Hopper's wife Josephine, waiting for him to come back or pausing before joining him in the lobby.) It's sort of like a lonely figure who thinks deeply and is disconnected from the rest of the crowd that were in the theater. Other sources like this: , quote Josephine as describing the woman as not being the type to take her shoes off, which similarly sound to me like someone a bit awkward. I also think it's interesting that Edward and Josephine named the woman "Nora".

Another thing: it looked odd to me that the image of Solitary Figure isn't the standard "thumb" format. I assume you used "gallery" because you intend to add more images? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:15, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeppers. Nice work. I started adding a bit here. Viriditas (talk) 09:32, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Have you tried coming with some hooks? The clock is ticking on this. Also, please feel free to add some of the material up above that you found. Viriditas (talk) 09:54, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Looks good. I'm very limited for time, so you shouldn't wait for me. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:37, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Maybe: DYK... that the woman in the 1963 painting Intermission was described by Edward Hopper as an egghead? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:21, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Ok, that's one. Can you come up with a few others? Viriditas (talk) 21:24, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Depends on time. Don't count on me for it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:26, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Looks like we have another couple days. Viriditas (talk) 22:12, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, you have another couple days. As the old joke goes, I've stopped buying green bananas. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:57, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

It's funny how idioms can be regionally specific. I try to always buy green bananas in Hawaii, otherwise the bananas will go bad very fast. Not true in cooler climates, I believe. Viriditas (talk) 21:19, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Add Template:Did you know nominations/Intermission (Hopper) to your watchlist. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

And thank you! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:26, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)The intermission. Gosh, I vaguely remember that. The usher would get her brief starring-role, with a little tray of choc-ices and fruit lollies. While the big screen tempted you to the wonderfully exotic world of Kia-Ora orange drink, Butterkist popcorn, and Wrestler's Hot Dogs. I really miss Pearl & Dean. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:43, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Double entendres duly noted. If I weren't such a dignified fish, I'd tell your wrestlers what to do with their buns. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:57, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

ooooh, "hark at her!" I'll have you know, ButtKiss was a real brand! Norman Buttkiss 123 (talk) 23:09, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like someone needs an intermission! --Norman Conquest (talk) 23:34, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

All joking aside, intermissions should return to the cinema, not just because films are much longer these days, but because slow movement has so many benefits for society. This idea that everything needs to be fast, efficient, monetized, and in and out, is destroying civilization. The promise of technology is that it was supposed to free humanity from labor and monotonous work and deliver increased leisure time for people to pursue not just entertainment, but contemplation. This idea has been completely lost. An intermission forces the audience to reflect upon a work of art and think about it. It's the opposite of something like binge-watching which makes reflection and contemplation impossible. Viriditas (talk) 22:58, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

How very true. People get so tense, after three hours, they start planning armageddon.... Martinevans123 (talk) 23:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I have that solved. I watch films on my TV, On Demand, and take bathroom breaks whenever I want to. (Whether that makes me a châtelain, I leave to others.) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:51, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I honestly do not understand how anyone could sit for three hours in a single sitting. I really do like Nolan, but he's wrong on this one. He could have easily designed bathroom breaks into the film, but given how wrong he was about Tenet and his decision to place the value of the visuals and action above the audience hearing the dialogue (he's surprisingly on record about this, which is even more damning), I think he's lost touch with what audiences expect. Viriditas (talk) 23:59, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Haven't seen that one yet. But I'll admit to having loved watching Barbie. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:05, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Oooh! Is that Miss?? Yummy! Martinevans123 (talk) 00:16, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

No comment. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:19, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

And in this week's thrilling Dancing with the Stars, the lovely leggy "Tuxi" performs a stunning Cuban two-step, with the equally lovely and hated war criminal Vlad, to the rousing sound of the Trump Civil Fraud Anthem? Ah, bless. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:35, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Not just leggy: . --Tryptofish (talk) 23:50, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oooh, how very revealing. If I were you, I'd refuse to pay! Martinevans123 (talk) 00:02, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. And he's not as foxy as he used to be. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:04, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

better not to cite a scientist as opposed to an art critic as a source for popularity

Sorry it came off that way, but Goldstein is a famous art essayist. Check out his biography for the details (at the bottom). He probably knows art better than most art critics. I will defer to your judgment, of course. Viriditas (talk) 23:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

. Oh, not a matter of how it came off. And I don't dispute that; it's a pretty erudite essay. But looking at it from the perspective of a general reader, it doesn't sound like he's an art expert, and I saw this as a way of avoiding that concern while also tightening up the sentence. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

See! . --Tryptofish (talk) 23:33, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Maybe we should add a DYK ALT for the Covid content? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:34, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the content is strong enough for a good hook just yet. There's an enormous amount of sources, so maybe I will find one soon. Viriditas (talk) 23:37, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

OK. If you find a source that you like for it, maybe it could be something like "... that the 1963 painting Intermission became part of a meme about the COVID-19 pandemic?" --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Speaking only for myself, I'm looking for three things in a hook: hookiness, interestingness, and tight, solid, unambiguous sourcing. I wouldn't add "1963 painting" because we want people to be curious about what Intermission is or isn't. For example, there's a little bit of mystery involved when you read "Intermission can be viewed as a metaphor for the world as theater". I think that's one way of leaving the reader wanting to know more. Is it a painting or an actual intermission? Will it encourage readers to click the article? Does the reader need the context that it's a painting? There are different styles of hooks. Some of the best hooks are forms of double entendres or somewhat open ended; some are straightforward, no nonsense retelling of historical facts. There isn't one kind of hook. The sourcing that I'm looking at regarding the meme could be used for a hook, but I would personally wait until something better comes up. Feel free to look around and find one you like. I don't have access to Misplaced Pages Library, but if you do, that might be the place to look. Viriditas (talk) 00:01, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

For me too, those same three things are important. And I often feel like I don't care that much about "rules" for hooks. In this particular case, I feel like just saying "Intermission" is too mysterious, in a way that conflicts with being encyclopedic (although, again, I don't feel strongly about it). It might make me not care to click through, instead of being curious. (For that matter, I don't really agree with the idea that there shouldn't be any blue links before the main one.) But none of this is a hill that I would want to die on. I think it's something that can be settled by whoever ends up reviewing it. Actually, there is also a middle ground, between "that Illumination" and "that the 1963 painting Illumination": "that the painting Illumination". Saying what it is, is more useful than specifying the year (although, in the case of a Covid hook, the year provides information about the foreshadowing aspect). Whatever. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:40, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

DYK is one of the few places where you can submit short, somewhat ambiguous hooks that draw interest and views. I wouldn’t describe it as "unencyclopedic", it’s more of a style for creating clickbait and driving readers to your article. In any case, I just found a new source to expand other sections of the article.. If you feel like taking a look, have at it, as there’s some good stuff we can use and you might find a hook there as well. Viriditas (talk) 00:47, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I've read it, and it's a good read about the Hoppers overall, but there's only a brief, passing mention of Intermission, unless I missed something else. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:01, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

You're right, but the interesting part is the quotes from O'Doherty. You can find the full interview beginning here. That's what the NYT cites. Viriditas (talk) 23:31, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Note, I've got to say, I really enjoy the way O'Doherty writes. Viriditas (talk) 23:34, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Did you notice Andrzejbanas reverted an edit of yours at ANI?

Not sure why and I can’t undo it and as I’m on my iPad won’t try to fix it? If there wasn’t a good reason I’m tempted to block. Doug Weller talk 19:21, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

No need to block. It looks like one of those wiki-glitches that keep happening with edit conflicts at ANI. They posted a good faith edit, but in so doing reverted my edit and an edit by someone else. And tracking that down froze my computer. Sheesh! (But thanks for checking with me!) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:26, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Good to know. I think others, including me, are having a freezing problem.Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)#Editing of large page times out repeatedly and won't finish loading Doug Weller talk 19:30, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

The ANI edits are all fixed now, I think. Thanks again. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Glad to hear that. Doug Weller talk 20:07, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Wha’cha think

A promising treatment? Atsme 💬 📧 12:41, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

It seems to have been promising for a few years now, and the cynic in me would say that 'shows promise' is journal-speak for 'doesn't work'. Bon courage (talk) 12:54, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Um, I forgot what we were talking about... OK, more seriously, I agree with BC. Very unlikely to have lasting benefits. Good for diagnosing the blood clots in my leg (ultrasound, that is), but amyloid plaques aren't kidney stones (so to speak). --Tryptofish (talk) 21:04, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Putting that another way, breaking up plaques won't reestablish disrupted synapses. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Then again, when it comes to neuroscience, I'm apparently not constructive: (but ). --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Gratifying. Bon courage (talk) 06:52, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

No hard feelings

Hi Tryptofish. Just wanted to stop by and let you know that I have no hard feelings towards you over our recent disagreements. I am glad we have avoided personalizing the dispute, and I look forward to collaborating with you in the future! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 22:34, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks and – of course! – I have no hard feelings to you, either. For those watching here, we are talking about Misplaced Pages talk:Banning policy#Semantic markup. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:37, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

RFA2024 update: no longer accepting new proposals in phase I

Hey there! This is to let you know that phase I of the 2024 requests for adminship (RfA) review is now no longer accepting new proposals. Lots of proposals remain open for discussion, and the current round of review looks to be on a good track towards making significant progress towards improving RfA's structure and environment. I'd like to give my heartfelt thanks to everyone who has given us their idea for change to make RfA better, and the same to everyone who has given the necessary feedback to improve those ideas. The following proposals remain open for discussion:

• Proposal 2, initiated by HouseBlaster, provides for the addition of a text box at Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship reminding all editors of our policies and enforcement mechanisms around decorum.
• Proposals 3 and 3b, initiated by Barkeep49 and Usedtobecool, respectively, provide for trials of discussion-only periods at RfA. The first would add three extra discussion-only days to the beginning, while the second would convert the first two days to discussion-only.
• Proposal 5, initiated by SilkTork, provides for a trial of RfAs without threaded discussion in the voting sections.
• Proposals 6c and 6d, initiated by BilledMammal, provide for allowing users to be selected as provisional admins for a limited time through various concrete selection criteria and smaller-scale vetting.
• Proposal 7, initiated by Lee Vilenski, provides for the "General discussion" section being broken up with section headings.
• Proposal 9b, initiated by Reaper Eternal, provides for the requirement that allegations of policy violation be substantiated with appropriate links to where the alleged misconduct occured.
• Proposals 12c, 21, and 21b, initiated by City of Silver, Ritchie333, and HouseBlaster, respectively, provide for reducing the discretionary zone, which currently extends from 65% to 75%. The first would reduce it 65%–70%, the second would reduce it to 50%–66%, and the third would reduce it to 60%–70%.
• Proposal 13, initiated by Novem Lingaue, provides for periodic, privately balloted admin elections.
• Proposal 14, initiated by Kusma, provides for the creation of some minimum suffrage requirements to cast a vote.
• Proposals 16 and 16c, initiated by Thebiguglyalien and Soni, respectively, provide for community-based admin desysop procedures. 16 would desysop where consensus is established in favor at the administrators' noticeboard; 16c would allow a petition to force reconfirmation.
• Proposal 16e, initiated by BilledMammal, would extend the recall procedures of 16 to bureaucrats.
• Proposal 17, initiated by SchroCat, provides for "on-call" admins and 'crats to monitor RfAs for decorum.
• Proposal 18, initiated by theleekycauldron, provides for lowering the RfB target from 85% to 75%.
• Proposal 24, initiated by SportingFlyer, provides for a more robust alternate version of the optional candidate poll.
• Proposal 25, initiated by Femke, provides for the requirement that nominees be extended-confirmed in addition to their nominators.
• Proposal 27, initiated by WereSpielChequers, provides for the creation of a training course for admin hopefuls, as well as periodic retraining to keep admins from drifting out of sync with community norms.
• Proposal 28, initiated by HouseBlaster, tightens restrictions on multi-part questions.

To read proposals that were closed as unsuccessful, please see Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I/Closed proposals. You are cordially invited once again to participate in the open discussions; when phase I ends, phase II will review the outcomes of trial proposals and refine the implementation details of other proposals. Another notification will be sent out when this phase begins, likely with the first successful close of a major proposal. Happy editing! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her), via:

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Appreciation

You persistently remain able to disagree with fellow editors while embracing kindness and patience. A few weeks of less than kind comments had worn me down. You and another editor disagreeing with me kindly did wonders for me feeling better about the project. Thank you. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:03, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

And you are very welcome. (This is about: .) I'm sorry that you felt worn down, but I certainly know from personal experience how that feels. I guess saying what I said there is a big part of what I see me doing in this project. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:03, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

You are great at so much more than just being kind but I do see that as a major part of your contributions to this encyclopedia community. You have always been kind and understanding even the few times we disagreed. You even managed to get me to see your points and adjust my wiki-philosophy about somethings. Keeping the heat down in discussions will almost always yield the same results for the discussion without the necessary drama associated with raised tempers and hurt feelings. I've always seen you as somewhat of a "smoother", whether it's high points or low points, you bring everything level. We are here ultimately to build and improve on this encyclopedia. However, any one who thinks that building the community in the process is not equally important is foolish and the only way to do that is through civil interactions. It's not what you accomplish in life but how you accomplished what you did. You, my friend, are a big part of why I am here. So, I celebrate you with Pbritti. --ARoseWolf 11:41, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

And you just made my day! Thanks so much for that! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

(Even when what I said doesn't work: . --Tryptofish (talk) 21:26, 20 March 2024 (UTC))

Every editor is a human being. We don't have to always be in agreement but we can always operate with understanding. There are so many ways to get our point across without being mean. We shouldn't need a policy to tell us to be nice and respectful in our interactions. --ARoseWolf 12:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree. And after a bit of time for it to sink in, I really appreciate your description of "smoothing". I had never thought about it that way before, but now that you pointed it out to me, I like it very much, and feel honored that you would say it about me. It also occurs to me to say that I often see the queries from new and confused editors on your talk page. Myself, I'm not particularly wired to explain things patiently to people who are confused about such basic stuff, but I really do recognize the value of what you do in helping those editors get on track. Well done! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:37, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

But you do know that you are always welcome, as is any editor that watches my talk page, to comment if you have thoughts to contribute. If you didn't know that you do now. You have been a steadfast support for me when I needed advice and you've been a valued friend when I needed words of encouragement or a quick laugh. Even when we disagreed I have always taken your words to heart and evaluated my position because I am confident in your advice and trust it. You are a true gem. Thank you for all you do. --ARoseWolf 15:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

DYK for Intermission (Hopper)

On 28 March 2024, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Intermission (Hopper), which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Edward Hopper's 1963 painting Intermission can be viewed as a metaphor for the world as theater? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Intermission (Hopper). You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Intermission (Hopper)), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Z1720 (talk) 00:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

		Hook update
		Your hook reached 7,819 views (651.6 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of March 2024 – nice work!

GalliumBot (talk • contribs) (he/it) 03:28, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Congratulations! Viriditas (talk) 03:15, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

And to you, too! You started the page, and I just came along for the ride. (We are now both officially eggheads.) --Tryptofish (talk) 18:07, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I just read something funny in Kandel's Principles of Neural Science (Sixth Edition): "Caffeine can produce mild physical dependence but does not result in compulsive use." Have the authors ever visited a Starbucks at 7 in the morning? Viriditas (talk) 20:40, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Or me, at any time of the morning before I have my cup! Definitely should be Schedule 1! (Not to name drop, but I met Kandel, and he's a lovely person. Pseudo-related, but I added an image to our page on George Aghajanian.) --Tryptofish (talk) 20:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Good work, that's a nice image. I'm reading about how "BMIs can restore lost brain processing capabilities". Couldn't this also be used to augment the problem-solving process in healthy brains? For example, could you give ten practicing climate scientists BMI "caps" that would allow them to come up with better solutions for stabilizing the temperature of the Earth within a shorter time-frame (decades instead of centuries)? Or is this just a science fiction short story that I'm working on? Viriditas (talk) 21:11, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. (I'm taking BMI to mean brain-machine interface.) In theory, this should be possible. Of course, it's way too early in the experimental process to do this now (especially for a noninvasive cap that one could put on and then take off, as opposed to inserting stuff through someone's skull), and there are immense ethical considerations. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:16, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Aww, c'mon Trypto. Misplaced Pages needs volunteers!! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Watch out, Viriditas, Martin has a bridge he wants to sell us. On the other hand, Bill Maher says that, if necessary, he's going to vote for Biden's head in a jar of blue liquid if the alternative is Trump, which is pretty much how I feel. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:23, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

(Um, would it improve his memory at all?) Martinevans123 (talk) 21:35, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I dunno. I thought Maher's memory was pretty good already. /deliberate evasion of the question. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

LOL. "You want bridges? We got bridges! A little tuck, a little seam... you'll look great!" .... I'll bid 4 billion No Trumps! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Bridges? We don't need no stinkin' bridges! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Trypto, for making me laugh out loud. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Whenever I think of the upcoming US election, I think we all need a bit of cheering up. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Don't worry... you're not alone there. I'm personally interested in psychedelics, too. But responsibly-farmed beaver just doesn't look good on me... **sob** Martinevans123 (talk) 22:17, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Aw, don't feel too bad. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:22, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

But if you are looking.... there's a handy replacement in stock? Only £5M, and you get a free peerage thrown in! Apply: R Sunak (Downing Street Deals Ltd.) 12:29, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

See! He is trying to sell us a bridge! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

As for those brain caps, if you put "transcranial" into our search box, numerous results come up for technologies that exist so far. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Right. I guess what I'm getting at is what does it really mean to augment problem-solving? We were just talking about caffeine, which is known to help some people with focus and attention, but when you talk to people who have given it up, one begins to wonder if that is true across the board, instead of just in specific circumstances and individuals. We have many examples of people like Paul Erdős, who were known to take stimulants to help them work on math problems, but this might just be another example similar to people who drink coffee, albeit a bit more extreme. So, beyond simple so-called nootropics and cognitive enhancers, could a BMI, at the end of the day, really help with problem-solving, and how could it conceivably work in theory? I ask, because when I read about people who have worked on difficult ideas, one thing that always seems to come up is this idea that you have to go out of your mind (not in terms of mental illness, but the notion of getting outside of your own head) to find the solution. Some people have characterized this as thinking outside of the box, while others have said that they had to set aside their training in one discipline to see it anew from afar, such as thinking about the problem from another discipline altogether, even one they weren't trained in. Then they could take those insights and apply them to their own work. This reminds me of what researchers found in study subjects who took LSD, that "disparate regions in the brain communicate with each other when they don't normally do so", although trying to apply these results to creativity research isn't really recognized by most scientists. Viriditas (talk) 21:34, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

These are very interesting questions, I think. A lot of it comes down to scale or focus. What I mean is that we aren't going to augment problem-solving by stimulating or modulating the brain as a whole, or even a larger-than-microscopic portion of it. It probably requires getting to the scale of single neurons. For one thing, we don't know which ones. And for another, we can just recently do that by inserting electrodes surgically, but we are years away from being able to triangulate magnetic fields or electrical currents with that kind of resolution. And it's not even a matter of getting out of accustomed patterns of thought, but of doing that in a way that actually draws upon some high-level reasoning or database, as opposed to just feeling "stimulated" or "uninhibited". As I've said in the past, I'm personally interested in psychedelics. But I've also recently become concerned about ethical and methodological issues that have been reported about the earlier studies (). --Tryptofish (talk) 21:48, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Whenever I have this discussion, I'm always drawn back to the neuroscience of sleep and sleep and creativity. Results are still accumulating. Viriditas (talk) 22:03, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, definitely. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

On this day...

Has it really been another year gone by? . --Tryptofish (talk) 19:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Speaking of time, when I first heard the Bangles cover Simon & Garfunkel’s 1966 song "A Hazy Shade of Winter" in 1987, I knew it was going to be a classic. I’m happy to say that the song has made a resurgence in recent years, in small part due to Stranger Things, the best show you’ve never seen! Viriditas (talk) 00:21, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

In the good old days, we would have renamed WP:Talk page guidelines as WP:Toilet paper guidelines. In a nutshell: Over, not under. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:29, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Collaboration requested

I recall you are very good at distilling ideas and concepts into smaller, bite-size chunks. You frequently do this, for example, to avoid undue weight. I need your kind of expertise to help do this with content about Babe Ruth. I have posted a brief comment over at Talk:Babe Ruth#Tobacco. There is a link in that discussion to sources and content. No hurry on this. I hope we can continue this on the Babe Ruth talk page. Viriditas (talk) 00:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Will do. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I've looked, and I'm not sure what exactly you want me to do. I can see that it's about adding some additional content about his cause of death, either at the bio page, or at the page about his death and funeral, and the latter is under GA review. It sounds like you'd like me to look at a proposed passage somewhere, and see if I can copyedit it to make it more succinct, but I don't know where to find it. I'd be happy to do it, once I know what to do. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

What, you can't read minds? Viriditas (talk) 20:19, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I already knew that you would say that. (joke) When you have something specific, just let me know. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I will briefly summarize the issue: our featured article on Babe Ruth doesn't mention anything about Ruth's lifelong use of tobacco, which may have contributed to his death from nasopharyngeal cancer. This is not surprising since Ruth died in 1948, and the topic about Ruth and tobacco didn't enter the literature until much later, after 1987. (The larger background context of this health discussion starting from 1964 until 2014 is covered by the CDC in "The Health Consequences of Smoking—50 Years of Progress: A Report of the Surgeon General", so if you want to refer back to that I have linked it for you.)

It looks like the precipitating event for bringing Ruth into this discussion started the year previously, when in 1986, Surgeon General C. Everett Koop published The Health Consequences of Involuntary Smoking, the first official report to detail the "harmful effects of secondhand smoke". My understanding is that this was the clarion call for the beginning of smoking bans and smoke-free spaces, and one can plainly see a steady decline in smoking from 1986 levels until today. Late in 1987, Randal J. Thomas and John D. Cantwell, both of the Georgia Baptist Medical Center in Atlanta, sent a signed letter to JAMA (v258i15) which was quite ingenious in its scope.

As you know, these letters to JAMA often highlight patient case studies that physicians bring to the attention of the wider community for discussion. Thomas & Cantwell structured their 1987 letter in this format, using language such as "A case in point is that of a 53-year-old man with an 18-month history of progressive dysphonia and dysphagia, accompanied by weight loss and easy fatigability. He had had no significant prior medical problems." You can see where this is going. "Significant health risk factors included the heavy use of chewing tobacco and alcohol for nearly 45 of his 53 years, along with smoking approximately 30 cigars daily for about 30 years". Nothing out of the ordinary, right?

By the end of the letter we are surprised to discover that the writers aren't discussing their patient at all, but rather "In life, his markers were towering home runs and all-night parties; in death, his marker read simply "George Herman 'Babe' Ruth." So, this was a brilliant way of reopening the Babe Ruth case file, particularly during a new era of tobacco health research. From this initial letter came more, and from those, many new sources about Babe Ruth's death.

Nadim B. Bikhazi eventually got permission from Ruth's family to study the autopsy files in this regard. Bikhazi's article, "'Babe' Ruth's Illness and Its Impact on Medical History" was published in The Laryngoscope in 1999,, with Maloney et. al publishing similar material in 2008 ("A comprehensive analysis of Babe Ruth's head and neck cancer"). Although you may find relevant material in those links, I have also summarized the proposed content over here.

Basically, we want to come up with one or two sentences that summarize Ruth's lifelong use of tobacco and its potential risk which may have contributed to his cancer. In this regard, the NYT reported, "While there is no evidence that tobacco killed him, Dr. Bikhazi said it probably played a part." Viriditas (talk) 21:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Got it. I did see what you said in the GA review. So the bottom line is to come up with an additional sentence or two about this, and how to word that. Would this be for both the bio page and the death and funeral page, or would it differ between the two pages? I'll give this some further thought, but one thing that stands out to me on a quick look is that we need to avoid any SYNTH, and base it only on the sources that actually are about Ruth (not those that are about health effects in general). --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Ideally, it would be for both pages. I acknowledge your concern about SYNTH; I only provided the extraneous material to show how and why the interest in Ruth's death and tobacco arose in the 1980s. Viriditas (talk) 21:31, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

OK, I'll think on it, and propose some language at Talk:Babe Ruth#Tobacco. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:34, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Like I said, there's no hurry, so take as much time as you want. Viriditas (talk) 21:36, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Looks great. "Why couldn’t I have thought of that?" Viriditas (talk) 02:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Glad to help! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Vibes

Hi, I'm not sure if this will help the "vibes" feeling you expressed at my RfA, but I'm pictured in this photograph. This is from when I attended Misplaced Pages Day a few months ago in Toronto. I'm in the green. Umm... maybe this isn't quite the reassurance you were looking for and you still have whatever you saw in me that concerned you. If that's the case, I do hope that maybe I can alleviate that concern someday. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:16, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Clovermoss! I'm actually quite flattered that you (or anyone, for that matter) would care enough about my opinion to still be thinking of what I said then. But to whatever degree my opinion at that time has caused you any discomfort, please let me very sincerely apologize to you for that.

Since you've brought this up, I'm going to try to explain where my concern came from, without disclosing anything that I cannot disclose publicly. A long time ago, I happened to see you post a comment on a talk page, that reminded me of someone who is banned from Misplaced Pages. It sounded to me like something they would have said, and they are known to be a prolific and skillful socker. That said, it's 90% likely that the similarity was just a random coincidence, in which case my suspicion would just be an injustice to you. That's why I only went "neutral" and no further: I wanted to see if what I did post would ring a bell with anyone else, without posting anything that would be explicitly unfounded and a personal attack. Nobody else shared my concern, and I think in hindsight that I should not have even posted what I did. Sorry.

For reasons that I cannot post, I have a hunch that I know who the sockmaster is, and what they look like. (It's not, to my knowledge, a view held by others, and it rests on some questionable evidence, not enough for me to forward to functionaries.) I've just been looking very closely at your photo, and some photos of them. And I hate to say this, but there's a resemblance, just enough that I don't feel comfortable saying outright that I was wrong. It's not quite an exact resemblance, so I was probably wrong. That's where I'm at: I'm probably wrong.

I know that's terribly unfair to you, if as is probable, I'm insinuating something that isn't at all your fault. But I want to be honest in what I post in this reply.

But here's what's more important than any of that. As far as I'm aware, you've been doing an excellent job as an admin, and as a member of the community. For Misplaced Pages purposes, that's what matters. Not some fish's idiosyncratic hunch. Keep up the good work, and know that you have nothing to worry about from me. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:02, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I just wanted to try and put your mind at ease since obviously something about me bothered you. And I've always been relatively open about myself so sharing a photo didn't seem like a big deal since I've attended events. I admit to being a bit disappointed that it isn't enough and that you apparently see a resemblance. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm sincerely sorry that I ended up leaving you feeling disappointed. Please don't let this make you feel bad. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:33, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The only other thing I can think of would be this? That's me at WCNA. It's a bit more than a photograph and you can hear my voice (it's before I cut my hair a few months ago, it used to be quite long). I think it's human nature to find situations like this disheartening. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how I could prove that I am exactly who I say I am, but I've come to the conclusion that it's likely going to be impossible to convince you 100%. I know you've said that you think I'm a good admin but it's kind of hard not to focus on the you think I resemble a banned editor part. I think my reaction to that is quite reasonable, all things considered. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 20:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter what I think. After all, as I often say here, it's only a website. And for that matter, I'm only some random person on the Internet. I recognize that it's true that it's only human nature for this to keep tugging at you, but I really wish that it didn't. I'm 68 years old, and I can certainly think of many times during my own life when someone's criticism of me stuck in my mind much more than someone else's compliments, and much more than, by rights, I should have let it. But I can also give you my sincere advice to just let this one go. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:58, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The video didn't do it then? I can move on, I was just hoping that (like the photo), it might be enough. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:07, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The video actually looks even more like that person. Alas, probably just a coincidence. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

(ec) Jaguar padding by... I'm only some random person on the Internet And we all thought you were only some random fish in the net. And apparently an old experienced one at that! JoJo Anthrax (talk) 21:08, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I figured you were a disease, which shows how little I know. But no sugar-coating it, I'm old. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:33, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

You're going to have to try much harder if you want to be the 2024 candidate for the Curmudgeon of the Year award. Viriditas (talk) 00:17, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

If nominated, I will not run, and if elected, I will not serve. Now, get off my lawn. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:53, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Re: Information overload in medicine

From the article on information overload:

It would be impossible for an individual to read all the academic papers published in a narrow speciality, even if they spent all their time reading. A response to this is the publishing of systematic reviews such as the Cochrane Reviews. Richard Smith argues that it would be impossible for a general practitioner to read all the literature relevant to every individual patient they consult with and suggests one solution would be an expert system for use of doctors while consulting.

This would be fascinating to continue in a separate article about this subject. However, I have no idea what the topic would be called. It's not quite information overload in medicine but more of a subject about how experts can keep in touch with the latest studies. Anyway, I'm a bit overextended as I'm working on two different articles (one offline) at the moment. But I'm curious if you have any input as to what this kind of article would be called. It would probably fall under psychology, but I'm just guessing. BTW, these so-called expert systems have been around as startups forever. Not sure if they ever got off the ground as I was only familiar with their development in the 1990s, which is like a century ago in internet time. Viriditas (talk) 08:35, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I feel like one could call it the story of my life. I can attest, from personal experience, that it's a thing, and has been for decades, doubtlessly only getting worse with time. I'm sure it's true for clinical medical practice, and I know it's true for medical research, but I'd also say that it's true for science in general, and very well may apply to other academic disciplines. It's an adverse side-effect of "publish or perish". My gut reaction is that it probably belongs where we have it now, as a section of the information overload page, rather than spinning it out into a standalone page. Probably could be expanded, there. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:28, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, agreed. What I'm getting at though, is an entirely different topic. It may already exist, I don't know. Something having to do with "the ability to keep current in your field". Viriditas (talk) 00:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, so more like becoming "dead wood", becoming a patient safety issue. I don't have any suggestions at the moment, but you might get some ideas by looking through Category:Health care quality. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, kind sir! Viriditas (talk) 22:20, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Kind sir. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:25, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Re: Pit bull

Pit bull attacks are often perceived as taking place "without warning"

Just a note, this recently happened to me. I was very lucky because the dog was young and small (female, less than a year old). It went for my right hand first, and then my groin, with no advance warning, and wouldn't let go. Normally, I'm very good with dogs and have no issues, but I suspect the young owner was the problem and didn't know what they were doing. I immediately relaxed every muscle in my body and went completely limp, and the owner was able to get them to let go. Although most people recommend other drastic self-defense measures, I think you have to use the ones that come most naturally in the moment based on the circumstances. I immediately judged that the age of immaturity of the dog did not demand an aggressive defense posture. By relaxing and going completely limp, my skin and flesh was less taut, less rigid, and more malleable, and aside from redness and bruising, that was the worst of it. I think if I had tried to resist and pull away, there could have been major tissue damage. I would say "good times", but it really wasn't. Viriditas (talk) 23:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

You displayed impressive control. I have fortunately avoided dog attacks such as you describe. But my default (and unquestionably faulty) response, for which I have prepared to a certain extent, would be to eliminate the attacker with extreme prejudice. I am glad your approach proved to be a good one. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 09:40, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

My guess, and I could be wrong, is that given its age, the dog was at the very end of the teething phase. Viriditas (talk) 19:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I almost forgot to mention the second failed attack that happened back in January. I was on a nature walk late at night to stargaze in my neighborhood, when one of the neighbor's pits got loose and was running the streets looking for trouble. As I was crossing the street to make my way back to my place, this dog comes literally out of nowhere and starts barking, staring me down. To keep my wits, I remembered to show no fear; I was trying not to laugh at the absurdity of the situation because if I did laugh it could make the dog angrier than it already was. At first I thought the poor dog must be rabid, because it was in the middle of the street doing this with a weird look on its face. I thought I could hear whistling in the distance, perhaps it was Ennio Morricone? I must have imagined it. Now I could hear flamenco clapping, straight out of Santa Esmeralda. We stared each other down. Was that tumbleweed rolling by? We stood in place like it was a gunfight at the O.K. Corral. It was then that I realized that the dog was scared and slightly lost and couldn't get back home, but at the same time, it was overly aggressive and wouldn't let me get close enough to read its tag and help it. As luck would have it, a bicyclist showed up out of nowhere and saw the scene unfolding. The dog immediately got distracted and turned its head from me to them and was prepared to switch gears and go after them instead. Lucky me. The bicyclist slowed down; I quickly explained what was happening and asked them to slow even further down and go in the opposite direction as that would allow me to walk away from the dog as its Homer Simpson-like attention span quickly forgot about me and decided to pursue another moving target, albeit one that was faster than them. And that's how I made my way back home. Viriditas (talk) 23:33, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Flamenco clapping is possibly not recommended as a distraction strategy for pit bulls. You could try Filipino? Or maybe you really need to just use one hand (the one without the dog teeth embedded...) Martinevans123 (talk) 09:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Bride vs. O-Ren Ishii Viriditas (talk) 18:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I make a few cleanup edits to a page that Atsme asked me to watch (), and when I log in the next day, I have 15 new messages. Rolls eyes. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:31, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Atsme's bark is much worse that her bite, you know. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

How many little bits does it take to make one bite? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Slightly more than one dog year. Viriditas (talk) 19:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Well I for one, feel a bit dog-eared. Seems like it's all been going for donkey's years. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Speaking of dogs - I received a Common's notice: "Shamoople‬ left a message on your talk page." Based on recent experiences from there, I am hesitant to go. I've learned that stalkers derive some sort of pleasure using the element of surprise. Would you or another brave colleague let me know if it's safe? I don't know any user named Shmoople, and I doubt that it's going to be a pleasant message on Commons (which is usually an image when on Commons). Atsme 💬 📧 22:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

All I see there are friendly messages about things like choosing good images. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the message was deleted by an admin on March 23. It must have been pretty bad. Viriditas (talk) 23:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, it's pretty bad alright. It's still up on Wikidata. Wikidata admin needed! (Do not click that link...unless you want to.) Viriditas (talk) 23:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I reverted. Viriditas (talk) 23:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I won't be clicking it. Thank you, Viriditas. I figured it might be that sick-o stalker. *sigh* Atsme 💬 📧 23:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

It occurs to me, the more I think about it, that this kind of thing really reflects the age of the person doing it. At my age, I would be far more upset at an image of a toenail with fungus or someone sticking their hands in a restaurant buffet. I suppose this is partly why profilers can generally give an accurate yet restricted age range to most crimes. In other words, your stalker must be very young. Viriditas (talk) 23:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

So glad that neither of those gentlemen had toenail fungus or had hands in a restaurant buffet. Shucks, I thought it might be something cute... alas no. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I am partial to a Doxle (Beagle x Dachshund). Cute little fellers. Viriditas (talk) 20:51, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

It didn't occur to me to check the talk page history until after I had logged out. Anyway, 'nuff said. Thanks for reverting it, Viriditas. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:15, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

There's a lot to be said for that cross between the Dunker and the Ruski, affectionately known as the Du-Rex. Very protective, it seems. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:36, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm partial to the Du-Ron. But don't tell anyone about this. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, the flightless bald eagle crossed with that other famous lame duck? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:12, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

It's extremely rude to make fun of DeSantis' utter and abject failure to make an impact as a presidential candidate.

You should make fun of his gender-affirming care, instead. But only because he's so opposed to anyone else getting gender affirming care. MPantsTempAccount (talk) 13:52, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Hey, Temp Account! As always, so happy to see you here! As far as I'm concerned, if Radical Ron weren't governor, Hurricane Ian wouldn't have happened. And I have documents to prove it. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:37, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

"He made a mess of my dress and my heart stood still. Somebody told me that his name was Bill" etc. etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:00, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

It appears I missed all the fun. You need a few more reliable sources before I can review this and move it to mainspace, Tryp. Do you have a COI with the subject? Something smells. --ARoseWolf 16:14, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I'm utterly corrupt. But don't anyone mess with my Feathered Article! --Tryptofish (talk) 18:40, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Reminder to vote now to select members of the first U4C

You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki. Please help translate to other languages.

Dear Wikimedian,

You are receiving this message because you previously participated in the UCoC process.

This is a reminder that the voting period for the Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) ends on May 9, 2024. Read the information on the voting page on Meta-wiki to learn more about voting and voter eligibility.

The Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) is a global group dedicated to providing an equitable and consistent implementation of the UCoC. Community members were invited to submit their applications for the U4C. For more information and the responsibilities of the U4C, please review the U4C Charter.

Please share this message with members of your community so they can participate as well.

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RFA2024 update: phase I concluded, phase II begins

Hi there! Phase I of the Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/2024 review has concluded, with several impactful changes gaining community consensus and proceeding to various stages of implementation. Some proposals will be implemented in full outright; others will be discussed at phase II before being implemented; and still others will proceed on a trial basis before being brought to phase II. The following proposals have gained consensus:

• Proposals 2 and 9b (phase II discussion): Add a reminder of civility norms at RfA and Require links for claims of specific policy violations
• Proposal 3b (in trial): Make the first two days discussion-only
• Proposal 13 (in trial): Admin elections
• Proposal 14 (implemented): Suffrage requirements
• Proposals 16 and 16c (phase II discussion): Allow the community to initiate recall RfAs and Community recall process based on dewiki
• Proposal 17 (phase II discussion): Have named Admins/crats to monitor infractions
• Proposal 24 (phase II discussion): Provide better mentoring for becoming an admin and the RfA process
• Proposal 25 (implemented): Require nominees to be extended confirmed

See the project page for a full list of proposals and their outcomes. A huge thank-you to everyone who has participated so far :) looking forward to seeing lots of hard work become a reality in phase II. theleekycauldron (talk), via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:09, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Monitors not closing the RFA they are monitoring

Should this be suggested as a separate statement? It seems an obvious idea, but defining it now looks like an idea that could help avoid issues in the future. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with that. And,  Done: . --Tryptofish (talk) 20:01, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

email

Hey, Tryptofish! You don't have email enabled, which maybe means you don't want to interact via email, but if you're willing to, could you email me? Valereee (talk) 13:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi Valereee. I generally don't like to conduct Misplaced Pages business via email, largely for privacy reasons. I'm also making a guess that you are contacting me about the current drama involving someone who is upset. That's something that I really do not want to discuss anymore. But if it's about something else, please drop a hint here, and I'll reconsider. Of course, I'm always happy to talk with you, so please don't feel like I'm brushing you off. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:23, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Not at all, and I totally understand. Tangentially related, although not in the way you're probably thinking of. Valereee (talk) 12:26, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

TFA

story · music · places

Today's TFA, Felix M. Warburg House, was written by Vami_IV and Epicgenius, introduced: "This article is about another of the great houses that once lined Fifth Avenue in New York. Specifically, this is the mansion of Felix M. Warburg, a Jewish financier who ignored fears of anti-Semitic reprisal to his decided to build himself a big Gothic manor in the middle of New York City. Although the Warburgs no longer remain, their legacy does: the museum is now the home of the Jewish Museum (Manhattan) and the building largely survives as they left it. It's a beautiful building and I hope you will all enjoy it."! - in memory -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:19, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

today's story has a pic of a woman holding her cat, a DYK of 5 years ago - the recent pics show 2 orange tip butterflies --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:21, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Today's story mentions a concert I loved to hear and a piece I loved to sing in choir, 150 years old OTD. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Why?

Could you tell me why you reverted my edit on Doug Weller's page? How did that impact you in any way? MarydaleEd (talk) 22:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't impact me, per se. I did it because of WP:TPO and WP:REDACT. If you want to withdraw something you've posted, you can strike through it, as in: <s>strike through</s>. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Good

Good. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:15, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Nano-ayurvedic medicine

The article is now improved into a perfect article Nano-ayurvedic medicine and the sources are now accurate, so turning it into an article is better. 120.56.170.208 (talk) 08:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Facepalm Let's just say you have an idiosyncratic understanding of the word "perfect". --Tryptofish (talk) 20:23, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:FTN#Nano-ayurvedic medicine, again. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:41, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Tryptofish, out of curiousity, have you ever met, sat down, and talked with someone who practices ayurvedic medicine? I have. What surprised me the most was the realization that they were practicing "medicine" from the 1st century BC. While on the one hand it boggled my mind, since it is, after all, 2024 right now, on the other hand, this isn't so strange when you think about all the old beliefs people have. Why do you think people continue to harbor old beliefs about reality when the new ones tend to explain the world, for the most part, in a much better way? Well, I asked the ayurvedic practitioner this very question. Their response? A perfectly, well-formed appeal to tradition. Viriditas (talk) 00:02, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I have to give two answers, one as an editor, and the other as my offsite self.

My answer as an editor is that this content fails WP:MEDRS, and is beyond fixing. Full stop, and I don't want to discuss that any further, outside of the AfD discussion that is going on now. And I don't want to encourage this IP.

My answer as a scientist is also that I don't want to encourage this IP. In this particular case, the idea of doing ayurveda by way of nanoparticles is very much what another editor at the AfD rightly called "bollocks". More generally, I'm friendly to the idea that cultural traditions have, over long periods of time, discovered ways of providing health care that can turn out to be very real, and that should be made use of, rather than dismissed out of hand. The way that I try to distinguish between useful insights and bollocks is by seeing if there is a scientifically rational way to explain how the proposed treatment may work. As often happens, the nano-bollocks theory fails this criterion. As for why people find it so easy to harbor old beliefs even when evidence is right in front of their eyes, well, I'll answer that with another facepalm and a quick mention of MAGA. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:05, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I think you may have entirely misinterpreted what I wrote, but that doesn't matter, as I still enjoyed your answer. What I was getting at was experientially trying to figure these people out, not in any way encouraging them or legitimizing their behavior or ideas, but understanding their motivations and beliefs face to face, not on Misplaced Pages. The reason I raised this issue is because I live in Hawaii, and for whatever reason we have a large number of people who believe in this stuff. When COVID-19 first started, ayurvedic practitioners were the vanguard of COVID-19 denial. At the time, partly due to the lockdowns and with everyone being out and about in the sunshine, I got to talk to these people, in gonzo fashion. I took photographs, interviewed people involved in the protests, etc. The ayurvedic people I interviewed were part of what eventually became known as the early conspirituality movement, and they were really unusual. The gist of their argument was that modern medicine was lying to everyone, and worse, trying to "kill" them, so "logically" (in their mind, of course), they went back to the roots of medicine to see what worked in the past. When I politely brought up that humoral theory used by the Ancient Greeks was long past its due date and didn't seem to help anyone, their answer would always default to some form of an appeal to tradition. Just wanted to share what I learned firsthand, in the field, so to speak. Oh, and speaking of MAGA, there's a guy who goes to MAGA protests and films interviews with people in a similar manner on YouTube. They are considered some of the greatest videos of all time on the internet. He basically just asks them a very simple question about what they believe and then lets the wheels turn in their head and have their say. It's some of the most enlightening interviews on the subject available. That's kind of what I was going for and getting at. One thing I learned about the MAGA videos is that they don't really believe anything at all. It's some kind of received "wisdom", an eclectic nihilism, a smorgasbord of things they heard on Fox News. I suspect that's also true for the lower-level ayurvedic believers, but the ones who are actually in that field are probably engaged in some aspect of con artistry, but that's just my opinion. Viriditas (talk) 22:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm laughing at the combined facts that I misunderstood you, and I was still entertaining. I think I'm a bit stuck on two semi-related things: feeling annoyed at the IP, and feeling annoyed at the state of things in US politics. Anyway, I think it's relevant that your interviewees said that they thought modern (aka Western) medicine was not only lying, but trying to kill them. On the one hand, they were responding to something real: the American descendants of Europeans do have a history of, literally, exterminating native peoples. That's real, and it's something that needs to be taken seriously. But on the other hand, there's a phenomenon of people developing a sense of "self" based on their life experiences, even when there are cultural aspects of those life experiences that are not based on rational thought, and then seeing something that is merely rational and valid as being a fundamental threat to that sense of "self". And that becomes an existential threat, that must be fought back against. In turn, that gets folded into the human sense of us-them, something that got hard-wired when humans were nomadic hunter-gatherers. I think those kinds of things were going on in those discussions you had. I also think those kinds of thing play a role in people who believe that Trump's guilty verdicts were an attack on them, or believe that what I said about the extermination of native peoples needs to be purged from public school education. And if I'm going to be honest about myself, it may be something that contributed to my getting stuck on the things I just got stuck on. (Note: edit conflict with the additions you made to your comment.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

No worries. Just FYI... I thought the guy who was an expert on interviewing MAGA was Jordan Klepper, but I think it was someone else. On that note, Klepper argues along the same lines as you do, but he attributes the problem to "identity", and MAGA has a hard time changing or discarding what they hold so dear, or as you put it, their sense of self. Viriditas (talk) 22:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Found it! Don't know his name though: "TheUrglyTrue". This is the guy I was talking about, not Klepper. Viriditas (talk) 21:21, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

His name is Jason Selvig and he's part of The Good Liars comedy duo. Viriditas (talk) 21:32, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Quick note on Misplaced Pages:Banning policy

Thanks for your edits to Misplaced Pages:Banning policy.

Yeah, Labeled Section Transclusion is very weird. There might be a way to fix it so that people can directly edit those sections. I did something similar for the "edits on behalf of banned and blocked editors" thing. I could probably do something similar here. Awesome Aasim 20:23, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the note about this. I'm not sufficiently tech-savvy to know the fix, but the font really looked bizarre to me. I'm glad you don't mind. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:27, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Belly up!

I've just created Barbara's Rhubarb Bar (can't figure out a way to relate it to Barbenheimer). My wonderful talk page participants are welcome to expand and improve it! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:20, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Great work. I only see four things that could do with some expansion:

• More should be said about the backstory to the tongue twister. I can’t recall the exact details, but maybe it started out as a combination of nursery rhymes or teaching German language, I don’t know.
• More should be said about the technical compounding (iteration), perhaps how it differs from English or other languages. For example, the main difference is that there is no space between subsequent compound words, unlike English.
• More can be said about the most notable viral videos and succession of videos by internet celebrities, particularly the most unusual ones (the English version is particularly hilarious, as it tries to recreate it by closely translating it)
• More can be said about the German people and culture involved. There’s some weird tangential discussions about the origin of the word "barbarian" and what it originally meant, etc.

Again, great job. Viriditas (talk) 23:37, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the very helpful feedback. I'll work on those things before going to DYK (which I think this page is tailor-made for). --Tryptofish (talk) 23:39, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

The New York Post is now deprecated on Misplaced Pages, so you’ll want to replace that source with another before nominating for DYK. See WP:RSP. Viriditas (talk) 23:58, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Damn! I wondered about that, and checked WP:DEPS, where it isn't listed, so I thought it was OK. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:04, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Looks like you’re correct. It’s not technically deprecated, just "generally unreliable". This is because historical use of that source prior to 1976 is still acceptable. Viriditas (talk) 00:08, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I've just been reading over the various discussions and RfCs linked from RSP, and there seems to be some sentiment that its reliability depends on what is being sourced to it. For example, it would not be reliable for politics, crime, or celebrity gossip. I'm kinda thinking the things I sourced to it might fall in the area of not-a-problem, but it's also not a hill I would want to die on. I'm going to sleep on it. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I’m not concerned, but I’m concerned others might be concerned, hence the preventative discussion. Personally, I would tend to agree with you, but that hasn’t stopped other crusading editors from removing dozens of sources from articles I wrote. Viriditas (talk) 00:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Forgot to mention WP:O. You'll want to add incoming links from other articles. Viriditas (talk) 19:46, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, all of this is helpful to me, and I appreciate it. (Also thanks for the most recent notes in the talk section above.) I find "preventative discussion" very helpful. I've got a couple of days within the DYK time deadline, so I just need to think things through. Initially, I wanted to source the page to independent news accounts, rather than to website commentary, on the theory that this would better demonstrate notability. Some things I'm trying to figure out are: can I source what I sourced to the Post to another source already on the page, and if not, would some website be better or worse? I'll ponder all of this. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:29, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

As for the orphan situation, start by linking to the song here: "Barbaras Rhabarberbar", a German tongue-twister, made popular on TikTok in 2024." You'll either want to create a redirect or use that title, it's your choice. Viriditas (talk) 00:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

@BradPatrick: in the event he has an opinion about the article title and sources. Viriditas (talk) 00:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Found a source that can help fill in the gaps above. It's classified as "generally reliable" at WP:RSP. Viriditas (talk) 00:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that one came up on my search, and I now don't know why I skipped over it. Thanks again. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:53, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

There's more. Rheinische Post, which is a good RS, has an article about the song. But it's behind a paywall. You can request a copy at WP:RX. Viriditas (talk) 01:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your help with this. I really appreciate the thought and effort you've put into it. I've decided to remove the Post source. What pushed me to a final decision was finding out that Marjorie Taylor Greene used a bogus headline from the Post in the hearing with Anthony Fauci. Not an RS, and I don't need it. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:39, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Probably a good idea to take a look at Draft:Barbaras Rhabarberbar and merge what you can into your article, giving User:BradPatrick a credit in the edit summary. Viriditas (talk) 08:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh, damn. It didn't occur to me that someone would start an article using the German name instead of the English one. I'm going to put a note on the draft talk page now. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:39, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Any hook ideas yet? Sorry to be pushy... Given the wide availability of free images of Bodo Wartke (and Marti Fischer), you could get the first position in the DYK slot by adding images of them to the article (or just focusing on Wartke, it's your choice) and writing the hook around Wartke and Fischer. Not ideal of course, but something to consider to get the best showing for your hook. Viriditas (talk) 20:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

It didn't occur to me to look for images of those two on Commons (probably because we don't have BLPs about them here, although that's dumb, because I think they do a de-wiki). So I'm going to add images to the page right now. As for DYK, I don't care about being the first in the list, so I'm thinking instead of something jokey and hooky, like "... that barbarians go to Barbara's Rhubarb Bar?" I'm considering various alternatives to "go to", such as "love". The one thing I'm still stuck on, on the page, is the sourcing for the lyrics/plot, partly because I'm not sure about some user-generated sources, and partly because I don't want any arguments about whatever verb I use in the hook not being well-sourced. (Alas, the Post had a particularly good translation of the lyrics.) --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to have to rethink the hook, because DYK disallows hooks that are entirely "in universe" for a fictional story. I'm thinking that if I bring "cake, not pie" into it, I can still use some of the plot. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:28, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

One thing that took me a while to learn but really helped me with hooks is to not focus on just one, but to come up with like six, and then try to narrow them down to one that works for you. In other words, brainstorming at a wider level may be more productive than narrowing down in the beginning. Reversing the process (going from general to particular) helps with coming up with hooks at first. One of the things I find slightly scary about hook creation is that the sky is the limit. I'm not apeirophobic (quite the opposite, actually), but when it comes to hooks, I find that the notion makes me slightly anxious. Viriditas (talk) 22:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

As long as you aren't trypophobic! Thanks again. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Hey, any word yet on hook ideas? I love the shared etymology idea, but it would have to be reworked for a hook. Viriditas (talk) 22:18, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Phew. Was worried that you had disappeared. Glad you see you submitted it. Cake vs. pie. Brilliant. Viriditas (talk) 22:57, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Ha! I was just busy working on it, and I figured that would answer your question. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm concerned about WP:DYKFICTION. Even though cake and pie are real, I don’t think the hook passes that criterion. This is a common problem. What you might do, is just straight out ask on the DYK talk page, and see what answer you get. Could save a lot of time. Also, get in the habit of creating multiple hooks. Viriditas (talk) 18:48, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm continually training myself to get in the habit of crossing that bridge when I come to it. I already gave it a lot of thought, and studied numerous past discussions of that rule, and I'm personally satisfied that the cake-pie part satisfies the requirement. And I already have workarounds in mind if a reviewer has an issue about it. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:40, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

You're an intriguing person. I tip my hat to you, sir. Viriditas (talk) 20:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm a fish, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I recall seeing reliably sourced articles about the lyrics two days ago. Will have another look when I get home. Viriditas (talk) 21:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Peruvian news and entertainment source Mag. has an article with lyrics. Viriditas (talk) 01:23, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. (Talk about going to the ends of the earth! ) I decided against using it, because it means taking a German-to-Spanish translation, and then translating that into English. After more thought than it's worth, I decided to go with what I've got, and I think the page is probably ready for prime time. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

That's great! Good to you see you getting into the swing of things. Viriditas (talk) 22:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Read your article and laughed. I've enjoyed introducing friends to that youtube video for years (video).

I tend to really enjoy wordplay and punnistry : )

And I have a King's Singers recording called A Tribute to the Comedian Harmonists, in which they sing Veronika. So I immediately had that song going through my head. I blame you - lol.

Anyway, added that wikilink about the song to your article.

I hope you're having a great day : ) - jc37 21:32, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

And you, too! I'm glad you enjoyed the article, and I'm happy to take the blame. Yes, indeed, "bababababa!" Thanks for adding that to the page. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Happy to help : )

Note that Veronika was popular in the 20s too. I started to try to redo the sentence, but didn't want to get afowl of the person being quoted, so I just removed that phrase. Not sure the best way to make the line include the quote while maintaining accuracy.

I also am looking at the quotes of the recent song's makers. Even though the top of the article does note the toungue twister's been around for years, they make it sound like they invented Barbara, etc. Just a suggestion, but I think the tone there probably should get a bit of neutral shifting.

Anyway, minor details. Thanks for the smile of the day : ) - jc37 22:00, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks again, and I'm happy to focus on minor details. I revised the lead according to what you pointed out. As for Veronika's popularity, I'm going to go with what the source quotes the person as saying, but saying that it was popular in the 30s doesn't rule out it being popular the decade before. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Sarah Maslin Nir places the craze over the video in the context of rhubarb's place in springtime seasonal cusine in Germany. Rhubarb, along with strawberries and white asparagus, are treated as cause for merriment.

This reminded me of the "Rhubarb pie" song segment from A Prairie Home Companion. Interestingly, there is nothing about rhubarb in the cuisine of Minnesota article, but the Rhubarb pie article provides additional context explaining how it became popular in parts of Minnesota. It's interesting from a cultural perspective how it is associated with Germany in this way, because Rhubarb needs a cold climate to flourish. I wish more could be said about the relation of the plant to the culture, but that's likely going to be difficult to do. My overall point is that the Germans are growing and singing about it for good reason: they have the climate for it. Viriditas (talk) 01:43, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, but don't eat the green parts of the leaves. For me, Marti Fischer in some of the videos reminds me of Borat. Anyway... I very much appreciate all the help you've given me. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it's you who has helped me. I'm very interested in watching article development in real time. The process is so incredibly messy, I've always wondered if there's way to improve it. Maybe we can talk about that later on down the line. Viriditas (talk) 22:36, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

By the way, if you are interested in how I got the idea for the page, in the first place, it was because I saw the first page (first page, no less!) article in The New York Times, and thought this is hilarious and this is notable for our purposes. That's a typical way for me to get ideas about starting pages. For Jack Sumner, I heard an interview on NPR with John F. Ross (author) about his biography of John Wesley Powell, and he briefly mentioned that someone in Powell's crew mutilated himself, and I thought that this was worth following up on. As you can see from my (surprisingly) meager DYK stats, I don't start new pages very often. I'm personally more interested in improving existing pages or solving problems, so I have to convince myself that a new topic is something special, before starting a new page. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I still don't understand why he castrated himself. Viriditas (talk) 23:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

It's such a remarkable story, isn't it? I cite two historians' theories on why, but who really knows. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh, wait. I just remembered something. There's a small body of literature that describes the phenomenon of drug-induced psychosis and the practice of self-mutilation. Given that Sumner was prone to bouts of heavy drinking, I wonder if that explains it. Viriditas (talk) 21:02, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Sounds plausible, but I haven't seen any sourcing for that, in Sumner's case. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:36, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Understood, it's just something I think about when I read crime reports from a so-called "Florida man" in the news. Very often, there's some kind of unusual self-mutilation involved and it is something that always stuck out to me. What is it about drug-induced psychosis that makes someone think it's a good idea? Viriditas (talk) 21:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Now, now, let's leave Mar-A-Lago out of this. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:47, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Facts. Viriditas (talk) 21:50, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I've checked the page views, and... wow! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

• Template:Did you know nominations/Barbara's Rhubarb Bar. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  Nice work. Still too bad you couldn't come up with an image for the main slot, even though you don't care. Viriditas (talk) 22:57, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  True, I don't care. I've got no shortage of page views, even before appearing on the Main Page. Edit Misplaced Pages, show up on Google searches. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  BTW, in my lifetime, I've only had "rhabarber-streusel-kuchen" once, but for the life of me, I can't remember where! I think it was in San Francisco. Viriditas (talk) 22:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  Don't forget about the QPQs. I could donate a bunch to you, but they tend to frown on that. Viriditas (talk) 23:00, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  No worries, I'll get to it tomorrow. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  Cool, cool, cool. Viriditas (talk) 23:09, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Nearly 2,500 page views, and it hasn't even yet passed thru DYK. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:02, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

And it has now passed DYK, with a lovely review from an experienced editor. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:19, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Don't forget to follow it closely as it goes from queue to queue for preparation. It can get removed (or altered in weird ways) at any point in that process, and I've had to track down a few nominations (not my own) that were removed like this without anyone saying anything. Viriditas (talk) 19:45, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I know. (You know, I have done this before?) I'm already watching the one I qpq'ed as it moves through. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:51, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Please remember to brush your teeth tonight. Viriditas (talk) 19:57, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

--Tryptofish (talk) 20:03, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Now over 3,250 views! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:22, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Simpsons did it first! There's a Wikipedian somewhere, working remotely from home, using a drinking bird to hit F5 every few seconds. Viriditas (talk) 20:49, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Gradually going off-topic

Abandon all good taste, ye who enter here.

Two new image candidates: Rhubarb cake Piece of rhubarb cake with crumbles, next to a cup of cappuccino Viriditas (talk) 20:11, 14 June 2024 (UTC) Note: one of these images could be added to the "Cultural context" section. Viriditas (talk) 20:35, 14 June 2024 (UTC) Yes, excellent idea, thanks. I'm going to do just that with the image on the left. And the page is now over a thousand page views in just a few days! That's not just editors here. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:45, 14 June 2024 (UTC) . Actually, I changed my mind. The image is really of a pie, with streusel topping. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC) I think I found the one you are looking for: Are we good? Viriditas (talk) 20:56, 14 June 2024 (UTC) We're good already, although this discussion is giving me a sugar rush. I've been going through the Commons category, and I actually found a better one, so I'm going to use that. By the way, it seems to me that drinking beer with this stuff is... barbaric. Just sayin'. Although I guess there's this. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC) The fruity beer craze in the US has been in full swing for years, but I wonder if a Franziskaner Hefe-Weissbier would go well with it. Viriditas (talk) 21:27, 14 June 2024 (UTC) Good job, but I notice the parent category is "rhubarb pie". Should there be two categories for cake and pie? Viriditas (talk) 21:20, 14 June 2024 (UTC) I don't care what they do with categories at Commons. It's also in the Streuselkuchen category, so go figure. There's an alternative one that's also in both (and yet doesn't look at all like a pie), and I'm going to look at what it looks like with both. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:25, 14 June 2024 (UTC) Wow, I just had a mild olfactory hallucination after viewing those images. I could swear I could smell the sugary streusel topping coming right out of the page. I wonder if this is a function of olfactory memory being triggered by the image? Viriditas (talk) 21:59, 14 June 2024 (UTC) Looks like you walked right into my trap!! Now with the cake pics, you have to have the first DYK slot! Viriditas (talk) 22:07, 14 June 2024 (UTC) Hmm... what does this image do to you? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:03, 14 June 2024 (UTC) Honestly, nothing. I've only been able to visually trigger olfactory memories with something sweet or spicy. Possibly also sour and savory, but I don't recall. Viriditas (talk) 23:14, 14 June 2024 (UTC) I was messing with you; check what kind of mushroom that is. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:17, 14 June 2024 (UTC) Oh, I know. I didn't even have to check. I wanted to play it straight. Who is messing with who? Viriditas (talk) 23:46, 14 June 2024 (UTC) Barbarian! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC) Oh, wait, did you realize that it's also a part of a certain prominent public figure? (Not that you'd want to smell that.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:03, 15 June 2024 (UTC) You've gone too far, sir. Too far. Which reminds me, I made the same mistake the other day. I tried to tell a joke that I invented (that takes serious skills, still working on it) about how the upcoming election should be decided by Trump and Biden competing in a dance off rather than a debate. Let's just say, my joke did not go over well. I was accused of being a Trump supporter. Which reminds me: we need an article about the Trump dance. You know the one, in the tradition of Elaine's bad dancing. "Sweet fancy Moses!" Viriditas (talk) 23:14, 15 June 2024 (UTC) Bill Maher does a very funny bit, in which he describes what I assume is the same dance you are talking about, as "jerking off two guys at once". Might be a good skill for Trump to learn in preparation for prison. I feel a need to joke about this, lest I think too seriously about it and start crying over where the election seems likely to end up. I did see, by the way, what you posted about Trump on your talk page. Good thing we both edit under pseudonyms, because after the election we would otherwise be headed for the Gulag. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:23, 15 June 2024 (UTC) Yeppers, that's the dance. Who could forget it? And you're absolutely right. I feel the need to joke about this because Trump has taken the country to hell in a handbasket. But as I keep reminding myself, you know what's worse than Trump? Trump supporters. I assume you saw the news today? Alyssa Farah Griffin has now revealed that Trump actively discussed executing a staffer who had leaked a story to the media. Of course, that's not the first time. Trump loves talking about executing people. He even took out a full page ad in 1989 calling for the death penalty for people later found to be innocent. Then, you've got the Trump rallies where he called for violence and killings. I've documented some of the material here. Viriditas (talk) 23:32, 15 June 2024 (UTC) I'm tempted to use Template:Multiple image to combine these two images: 1 and 2. But of course I would never do that. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:49, 15 June 2024 (UTC) Oh, my friend. You are really missing out. Go search for free generative AI. Have fun. I could spend all day doing this. But there’s an art to learning how to write a good prompt. Viriditas (talk) 23:52, 15 June 2024 (UTC) Viriditas is making prompts great again. He has all the best prompts. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC) Wasn’t sure if you read this paper. It’s open access, from 2021. Viriditas (talk) 02:36, 16 June 2024 (UTC) No, that paper is new to me, but it seems plausible. As in "stand back and stand by". The scientist in me reacts to the statistical approach by thinking that it's hard to rigorously evaluate cause-and-effect, but it does make sense. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Hannah Critchlow

The response to her popular article about epigenetic memory is unusually controversial. I wasn’t aware of the study on mice. Not sure why she is receiving so much pushback on this from skeptics on Hacker News, but I found her article entirely reasonable. Viriditas (talk) 21:23, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

It's been a long day, and I'm finally getting around to a reply. I might be able to do more later, but here is what I have now. I tried to do a quick search for that Hacker News criticism, but didn't find it, so I don't know what it was. But these kinds of multi-generational studies in lab animals that attribute behaviors to epigenetics are tricky, and it's very easy to "see what you want to see". Actual genetic changes are straightforward to document, because you can sequence the DNA, and see if it changed. But epigenetic changes – where did the change, at the molecular level, happen? For something to be passed along through generations, it can be a bit like homeopathy, does it get so diluted that it isn't "real" anymore? I've taken a quick look at the full version of that paper, , and I'm glad to see that the behavioral measurements were done double-blind. That's important here. I need some sleep, and I'll look more closely at the epigenetics and anatomy. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:56, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

OK, looking at the mouse study in detail, I find it pretty impressive overall, with the kinds of controls I would want to see in such a study. So maybe there's something there. The short version of what the authors think is that when the mice developed a fear of the smells, there would be less DNA methylation of the gene for the protein (called M71) that acts as a receptor for the odorants in neurons in the olfactory bulb, leading to changes in that neural pathway. They show that there is less such methylation of that gene in the sperm of the mice, and that it is associated with changes in nerve anatomy and behavior, and they do a lot of very good controls. If I want to play devil's advocate, how does that methylation decrease get passed along from generation to generation? If there were a change in the DNA sequence of the M71 gene, that would be easy to understand. But this is a decrease in the activity of an enzyme (a protein, coming from a different gene) that methylates DNA in many genes (not just M71), and there's no evidence about changes in the DNA for the gene of that enzyme. So how does that enzyme "know", in the cells of the offspring, that it should be less active at that particular gene, as it had been in the parental sperm cell? (Parenthetically, it could also be an enzyme that removes the methylation, and becomes more active, but the idea is the same.) I'm not saying it can't happen, but it's an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.

As for the Guardian piece by Chritchlow, I don't know anything more. I note that she relates these ideas to trauma passed down by human survivors of the Holocaust, and that's such a fraught subject that I can certainly imagine some people reacting negatively to claims that what happens in mice might also happen in humans. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:47, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the critical read. Is it really such a fraught subject? I was under the impression that there was loads of evidence that trauma is passed down in our genes. Viriditas (talk) 21:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I meant that the Holocaust is fraught. If it's passed down epigenetically, then it's not passed down "in our genes". There's certainly loads of evidence of trauma having physical, organic effects on the human body, but much less evidence of it being passed along genetically. Note that children can observe trauma in their parents and acquire their own behaviors from that, but that's experiential, not genetic. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Looks like we have an article on the subject: transgenerational trauma. As for genetic changes, I was referring to the fetal programming theory. Viriditas (talk) 00:44, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it's useful to note how the TT page says (correctly) that a lot of it is due to children learning behaviors from their parents or their environment. The FP page struck me as an odd topic, and maybe a coatrack. I see that it was started by student editors as part of a class project. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Interesting! I had no idea we even had an article on the subject. Maybe we could improve the topic area? Viriditas (talk) 21:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I had no idea that it was a subject. I personally have zero interest in working on it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:46, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm...

I'm not finding fault with anyone's posts here, but I think there's nothing more that I can contribute to this on my talk page, and further discussion should really be somewhere else. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:23, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I don't think this is an appropriate use for a user page, or the intent of this encyclopedia as an educational resource, do you? I realize user pages are more lenient, but I don't think attempts to defame other users via WP:PAs is acceptable, much less a productive use of purpose. Your thoughts? Atsme 💬 📧 13:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Completely inappropriate (unless it is temporary information being collected in preparation for dispute resolution, which this isn't). The relevant policy is WP:Attack page. I've watchlisted it, but won't start action right away, because I'm dealing with too many other things at the moment. It's arguably eligible for db-g10, and definitely eligible for MfD.

By the way, nice to hear from you. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Tryp. It's a comfort knowing I can post on your talk page from time to time. Can you believe 13 years has flown by so quickly?!! Atsme 💬 📧 19:40, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

No worries. 13 years – don't remind me! By the way: User talk:Osomite#Just wondering why you added my editor data to one of your user pages. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:44, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

It is either highly inappropriate or really, really poor judgement to maintain lists of editors for no apparent good reason. Leave it to me to match the absurdity with a bit of my own. --ARoseWolf 20:11, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I was debating whether or not I should say something in the way of a warning, but I didn't want to rain on the cheerfulness. I guess I'll just sit back and watch what happens. It deserves to be made fun of, but it's also the wrong thing for that editor to have done. (And sheesh, I didn't even make the list!)

By the way, I hope y'all will enjoy Barbara's Rhubarb Bar! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:15, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Atsme,

I received a notice that you sent me an email. I have no idea how to access it, I guess that email is on a Wikipediae email system that I am unaware off. I would be interested to read it. Please tell me how to access your email.

About keeping a list of editors on a talk page, is there some Misplaced Pages rule against it?.

I would appreciate it if you would point out where I made a personal attack on my talk page.

And, out of curiosity, what prompted you to have this opinion of my talk page contents. Osomite 🐻 (hablemos) 22:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

See WP:POLEMIC. This is old news, my friend. Viriditas (talk) 22:49, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Osomite, I'll just include it here (without revealing any email addys):

Perhaps I have had an occasion to cross editing paths with you at some time during my 13 years editing WP, and if so, it must have been under a different user name because I don't recall ever editing with User Osomite. Yet, I received notice that my user name was added to one of your subpages, and it is prepended by the following notice:
Trigger warning: Long-winded, self-important naval gazing and unapologetic criticism of a large number of incompetent editors who should damn well know who they are, but probably don't because, well, incompetence.
How about an explanation, your "grandness"?

Atsme 💬 📧 23:15, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, the whole thing is unusual, to be honest. Never once seen "Osomite" before. Viriditas (talk) 23:42, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

And Osomite decided to move you to the top of the list @Atsme:. --ARoseWolf 13:16, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Osomite is the only one who appreciates me...#1 - doesn't get any higher than that, now does it? Too bad he's unknown; just my luck. Atsme 💬 📧 20:18, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Tell him about your Patreon! You might have a sustainer donor on your hands! Viriditas (talk) 20:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Atsme 💬 📧 20:43, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Re: Gulag

I wanted to followup with you on your comments about the gulag. Hope you had a chance to see Chip Roy's latest comments. Althought the biography doesn't include the full quote, here it is: "Tell you what - I do want to 'ethnic cleanse' by deporting white progressive Democrats - with a special bonus for rich ones with an Ivy League degree. I really do not like 'those people.'" Viriditas (talk) 21:45, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

The feelings are reciprocal. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Have you got your gulag survival kit packed yet? Still deciding on what to put in my mine... Viriditas (talk) 22:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Just my membership card in the cabal. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:11, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Next April 1, I'm going to propose merging Category:Biden family with Category:Bidens. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC) See Bidens hyperborea for the cause of his difficulty speaking during the debate. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

That's cute that you think there's going to be a "next" April. Viriditas (talk) 20:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Insert joke about not buying green bananas. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Tryptofish, if you do end up in the gulag, I will slip you a secret cracker from my hidden pocket. I've got you fam. Viriditas (talk) 21:29, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll refrain from making a joke about the epithet meaning of "cracker". --Tryptofish (talk) 21:31, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Viriditas (talk) 21:37, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

And a mushroom is just a mushroom. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:48, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

You are entirely too predictable. If I was evil, I could have fun with that. But sadly, I'm Chaotic Good, so I'll just sit back and laugh. Viriditas (talk) 22:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I should have said that April is the cruelest month. But re #6 in the list below, true story, after the 2016 election I went around wearing a "Don't blame me, I voted for Hillary" button, and I got yelled at on the street by a guy who said I should have voted for Jill Stein. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Re: this, I'd like to think I have Big Fish Energy. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:55, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I knew you were going to go there. I just knew it. Viriditas (talk) 02:56, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

You have fallen into my trap. Now I can control your mind. You are getting sleepy, very sleepy. Now send my all your money. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:31, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

That's fascinating. Looking at all the interlocking parts makes for some interesting reading. I'm no expert, but didn't Jill Stein contribute to Clinton's defeat in the same way that Nader stole votes from Gore and led to Bush's win, which helped turn the Supreme Court to the right? What's fascinating is how this connects with the Powell memo, as Powell (and others) originally named and blamed Nader for forcing their hand and creating the right-wing political movement that eventually led to Trump five decades later. Unintended consequences are a wild thing. I appreciate the work Nader did in the 1960s (Unsafe at Any Speed, 1965. We are also seeing a resurgence of these same concerns with Boeing in the modern era), but there's some evidence that Nader received GOP money in 2004 to siphon votes from John Kerry, but who knows if that was also true in 2000, when he did take away votes from Gore and likely led to Bush winning. Also, I think there's evidence that Jill Stein received significant help from Russian state actors on social media, and there are accusations she parroted Kremlin talking points. I think all of this could be prevented or even tamped down a bit if we had a stronger system of electoral regulation, removed dark money from politics, and limited campaigning like they do in other countries, but that ship sailed a long time ago. I just don't see how America is going to survive as a nation under all of these threats, foreign and domestic. The honest truth, is that my loyalty to the US is mostly because of how well it treated my ancestors; I feel like that deserves some kind of respect, however begrudgingly, because if my ancestors weren't allowed to come here and thrive, I would not have been born here. I'm not a nationalist, but given the safe harbor my ancestors were given, it only makes sense that I try to repay that in some way. I also think that American values, like the kind John Dewey wrote about in regards to pluralism and democracy, are a Good Thing, so I feel like I owe a debt of some kind, although it isn't clear how it can be repaid. With that said, the barbarians are not only at the gates, they are running for president and fill the state capitals. History is a harsh mistress, but we've seen this kind of thing again and again. I don't see any way forward. Viriditas (talk) 23:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, those are excellent comments, and I agree with you very much. As it happens, just before logging in today, I was on the phone with my psychiatrist, talking with her about my depression over that exact same sense of not seeing any way forward for this country, and not feeling like there's anything I can do about it. (By the way, I've been getting some help from chewing coca leaves.) W. B. Yeats wrote that "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity", and that seems just as true in 2024 as it was in 1919. I guess I can try to cheer myself by thinking of those other barbarians, the ones who went to that bar. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:45, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe we aren't going to the Gulag, after all. ;) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:29, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Build Viriditas' personal gulag go bag!

1. Tryptofish's Official Cabal card
2. "Trump" branded travel toothbrush
3. Bespoke, monogrammed orange jumpsuit with secret pocket sewn in
4. A copy of "How to Survive a Prison Labor Camp on $1 per Day!"
5. Signed copy of Hillbilly Elegy
6. One pair of black underwear that says "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!" on the rear

Hi there

We haven't spoken for months (a year maybe?) Tryptofish? I was really inexperienced then. Ah well, I think I've reached the disillusionment phase of my wikicareer, perhaps years prematurely. There are so many things that I wish I could do, but when you look at the and toxicity that appears, continuing onward is a painstaking thing. I kind of miss the eagerness that came with being a fresher and younger contributor, and I'd never though I'd reach that point, but now after being bitterly disillusioned, my mood is kind of ebbing and flowing. I don't know how you stick with this for 15+ years and continue to be lighthearted. I kind of envy that. But yeah it's incredibly hard to not be jaded and cynical, especially when you've made a personal commitment to be nicer to others. Hope you're feeling alright :) The Night Watch (talk) 22:57, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words, and I'm sorry that you're going through these feelings now.

I'm definitely not lighthearted all the time (but I'm probably very stubborn!). I find it's always a good idea to just step away from editing whenever it feels unrewarding, and there's no deadline for when to come back. I also think it's important to remember that, as I'm fond of saying, it's only a website. None of us owe it any effort, and the world is not any the worse if we ever decide to blow it off. Over time, I've gotten to know quite a few wiki-friends, and that's a good way to lift one's spirits. I also find that doing content work on something that isn't contentious can be enjoyable, and if I don't feel like doing anything major, just making some gnomish fixes here and there is pretty easy. And maybe your voluntarily stopping being an admin will make it easier for you to stay away from the toxic stuff. I hope those thoughts will help. I'd be glad if you find it works for you to become more active again, whenever that feels right for you, but please know that you don't owe it to anyone here to do that. You owe it to yourself to find whatever path makes you happy.

I can say that, for 15+ years, there has always been some community toxicity in one form or another. It's inevitable for a project that says that "anyone can edit". I've been thinking for a pretty long time about rolling my user-page back to what it was before I pseudo-quit, and just haven't yet felt the desire to do it, although I've been getting closer. If I try to put my finger on what the main problems here might be over the past year or so, one thing I'm noticing is that there is a very obvious changing of generations here. That's certainly not a problem in itself, and there are a lot of good things about newer editors and admins who have become active here in the past year. But it's definitely a largely new "cast of characters". If I focus on just the negative things, one that I can identify is that there is more of a culture of what happens at other internet sites, more of a social media kind of culture here. (That played a role in my writing WP:KNIT.) Another is that we have more editors who see things in terms of The Rules, rather than caring about the nuances of human interactions. (WP:MALVOLIO.) We've always had a significant number of such editors, but now, it feels increasingly like they are a constituency who support one another in discussions. That reminds me, that you had commented on a related point during a recent RfA, and another editor suggested at your talk that it was a more general subject, and I had been meaning to follow up with you about it. Here, I want to be very clear that what I'm going to say next isn't about anyone in particular, but is a general observation. It's worth taking a look at WP:HONEYPOT (which I did not write), because Misplaced Pages really is a "honeypot" for editors on the spectrum. Perhaps there are a lot of editors who like rules, and don't get nuance, for that reason. I don't have a good idea for how to improve things in that regard, other than that it should come from a position of mutual respect and listening, but I think it's worth discussing. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Ditto to what Tryp said. I've been involved with quite a few contentious discussions lately and it has been so nice to step away and finish an old small article I started years ago (Wild River (Alaska)). I find it peaceful to write about lakes and rivers. There is some old "magic" in these ancient waters. It brings a smile to my face even now discussing it. I feel those vibrations. Hopefully I can expand on the articles one day, maybe if I publish a book myself someone else can enjoy these waters by expanding the article. I love to read our articles about them too. I may never fully understand the special connection between humans and the elements, like water, but I can feel it all the same, that tug on me, and it brings me comfort. That's my happy place, my honeypot. --ARoseWolf 12:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that. What a lovely river, and what a lovely name for a river. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:38, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

It's been a while @ARoseWolf. Do you remember me? But anyway, yeah a lot of mutual respect for our fellow editors is good. I've been thinking a lot of my role in that, and the role of others. I mean, I can't claim to have always been nice, and always played well with others when I should have. Or even listened as well as I should have. I think a friend of mine had a good way to describe this: "We need collegiality, not civility… civility is a fucking low bar". Something along those lines anyway. We all could be doing more to care about others.

I've noticed that a handful of people here have a penchant to poke at flaws in others instead of self-reflecting. That's kind of what social media is about right? And also the focus on the rules. I thought your knitting essay was insightful Trytofish. But I think it's unfair when we have so many editors on the spectrum that have trouble expressing themselves and learning boundaries and ways to communicate. I'm not on the spectrum, but I do have some form of social anxiety and perfectionist personality traits, which color how I interact with others. Yes, you can laugh at me all you want for the theatrics I got into. I don't mind :)

Anyway I've been taking a similar approach with wikifriends, there are a few who I've tried to warm up to privately. I'm hoping to start working in a new area after some thoughtful time reading and going for nice hikes, so hopefully that'll be a positive change. Both of you take care, The Night Watch (talk) 03:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@The Night Watch, could anyone forget your colors? They are so beautiful. I didn't know you had a guestbook but I did correct the fact that my signature was not on it. I liked your old user name. I believe we have a lot more we share in common than we are different. It's so unfortunate in this world that humans tend to focus on the differences.

Tryp, I can't take credit for the name but I do take quite a bit of pleasure out of the fact it shares that similarity to myself, the lake as its headwaters, and the surrounding land we both traverse. I continue to sing songs of peace and love over my Wikifriends here. --ARoseWolf 13:45, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@ARoseWolf Aw I'm glad that you like the colors. I've changed so much since when I had my old username, some for the better, some for the worse. I thought we didn’t have much in common when we first met, but I think my values have changed to align a lot with yours. Recently I've been thinking about maybe changing my username to something else, to figuratively turn a new leaf once I get through this phase. My current one was inspired by a painting that my dad liked, but now I feel like I should choose something more true to myself. Hope you're doing well up in Alaska, I really need to visit there someday. The Night Watch (talk) 16:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, both of you, excellent comments. Yes, going for hikes (or really any form of getting outdoors and moving around) is something I like to do, too. Best wishes, all around. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

DYK for Barbara's Rhubarb Bar

On 9 July 2024, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Barbara's Rhubarb Bar, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that barbarians would have bought cake, not pie, at Barbara's Rhubarb Bar? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Barbara's Rhubarb Bar. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Barbara's Rhubarb Bar), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Good job! Viriditas (talk) 00:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I still don't understand how you got away with WP:DYKFICTION here! Viriditas (talk) 00:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, although I can hardly recognize the page after all the changes that accompanied the Main Page appearance. (I have a feeling I should just leave it to other editors for a day or so, and then go in and clean up the mess of WP:OR.)

As for DYKFICTION, it's because I based the hook on the real-world distinction between cake and pie. And also my membership in The Cabal. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I know, I was just ribbing you, you old fish. Viriditas (talk) 22:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Get off my lawn! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Speaking of lawns, historically, in the 1970s in Northern California, particularly after the drought of 1976-77, instead of lawns, homeowners experimented with all sorts of creative ideas to give the front of their houses a certain je ne sais quoi that made it inviting and interesting. I personally knew a family who put in an entire, fully operational Japanese garden, complete with aquatic garden features that went from the front all the way into their backyard and circled back around the perimeter of the house. As you can imagine, the property owners had no idea how much work was involved and there it sat, unused for the next 20 years. But you have to admire the effort. Viriditas (talk) 23:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

DYK day pageviews: 12,535 (522/hour), ranking #12 for the month so far. . Almost 20,000 views total since page creation. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:40, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Rather amusing: One of the people at the website-that-dare-not-speak-its-name is criticizing the hook on the basis that the tongue twister isn't really an RS for what kinds of desserts real historical barbarians ate. Talk about DYK fiction! --Tryptofish (talk) 19:57, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Scaling a cropped image

Hello, Tryptofish! Re. your edit to the Pinxton Castle IB, just offering a tip, in case you come across one again—the feature doesn’t seem often used—that the cWidth & cHeight parameters set only the size of the picture’s frame or window, having no effect on the image scale. In this case reducing those alone cut off a bit of the site at the bottom. To preserve the framing when resizing an image formatted with {{CSS image crop}}, multiply all the dimensional parameters by a constant (which would have been 0.88 here).—Odysseus1479 02:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing it. I had commented on the talk page that I wasn't sure how to do it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I took your mention of “the map” to refer only to the Derbysire locator map—I guess I think of the Lidar scan as a kind of photo. (In my ES I offered a tongue-in-cheek suggestion for dealing with the former.) Changing the tall map’s scale by a given amount will have a larger effect on the depth of the IB than would the same change to the square imaage.—Odysseus1479 20:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

You were right. I was referring more specifically to the Derbyshire locator. But when I tried to change the size of it (and I also looked unsuccessfully for an alternative locator image), the edit that I made was all I was able to come up with. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Practically a knighthood

"Among the guests was a rescue dog called Kratu from Transylvania, which the King could not resist stroking." Good to know Kratu is doing well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Aw, I thought you were nominating me for a knighthood. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The Knights of the Fish. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:11, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Ha! That made my (k)day! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Stick around

I will likely jettison myself soon, but you should stick around. You have a voice of reason. Lightburst (talk) 05:00, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Lightburst, I'm so sorry you've had so many problems. I've always enjoyed interacting with you, even when we disagree. It's so interesting how different personalities clash while others manage to get along just fine. It's a dynamic I find fascinating. I think it might have something to do with our shared interest in music, but I can't say for sure. Viriditas (talk) 19:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Lightburst, I see from your page that, for now, you're going to take a break, which is always a good choice when one is feeling stressed by this place. I'm glad you are there now, rather than retiring right away. I've gone through tough patches myself, but yes, I currently plan to stick around. As I said at ANI, I think you are being treated unfairly there. (There's a reason it's called a "cesspit".)

I find it interesting that Lightburst and Viriditas are the two people together in this talk thread on my page. As each of you will, separately, remember, at various times in the past I have sharply criticized each of you. But there is probably nothing that makes me happier, and prouder, on Misplaced Pages than finding, over time, that wiki-adversaries can become wiki-friends. It's really a wonderful thing, isn't it? If that makes anyone see me as "a voice of reason", well, that's what I aspire to, and if I occasionally accomplish it, so much the better. Remember, it's only a website, and people, real people, matter much, much more. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:33, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know about that; it feels pretty real, and I've met several people in RL from here. Viriditas (talk) 23:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

(Completely unrelated, but I just had to link to this! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:18, 13 July 2024 (UTC))

• I like Tryp. We don't agree on everything, namely Arbcom on Wiki, but as with everyone I have had experiences and discussions with here we happen to agree on more than we disagree. That's a foundation for some beautiful interactions which I believe we have had. There is enough hate and injustice in the world. I don't have time for it in my life. I would rather focus on the awe-inspiring positives I encounter daily on my journey. --ARoseWolf 15:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

  And rest assured that I like you, too. It's so much more important to value one another as people, than to agree on whatever might be the wiki-drama of the day. Today, I just saw that Pinxton Castle made the DYK section, which pleases me very much because I helped the editor who made it a personal project get there. When there's so much ugliness in the world, this is the sort of thing that makes for something very happy. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I am going to stay relatively quiet until I hear from the Ombuds about my MT report. I do not want what happened to me to happen to any other editor. I am glad for the evolution of relationships on here. I once had loads of friction with Tryp, Levivich, Serial Number, Dronebogus and others... but for the most part we have all done our best to squash it. I think we all see in each other, at least some measure of value to the project. Some relationships I have here are still strained, but it is not because I do not respect those editors. I also respect many of the editors who were trying to bury me last week. I am not sure what the future holds, but I am glad that Tryp and I have seen value in each other. No matter who is consistently donating their time here has importance and value. Good to see you here Viriditas and ARoseWolf. Lightburst (talk) 02:43, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 19:12, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

The Ombuds finally got back to me and said "not my department". MT did not abuse the tools he just made erroneous conclusions and assumptions. So I am probably going to be participating much less, but sometimes there is an article so wrong on here... Anyway hello Tryp. Lightburst (talk) 00:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. Please don't let it get you down. (Things don't always work the way one wants them to do around here. Just yesterday, a DYK reviewer objected to a hook that I thought of and felt was very good. But I figured "whatever", and gave him another hook, and the DYK went through.) Anyway, I saw the other day that you posted a thoughtful support comment at the RfA – so much for the stereotype that you only oppose there. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:25, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I am relatively happy with my scaled back involvement here. The RfA candidate looked like a good one and I could see no reason to oppose. I scaled back my involvement with DYK or I could have helped. TLC is an admin there and I think I made a big mistake supporting them at RFA - it is a note to myself to be more careful about candidates. DYK is generally a very cool place and involving yourself there definitely helps you become a better editor. Lots of eyes and opinions. And when your article runs it gets tuned up by many proficient editors. Right now I have started an ANI which is primarily about leftover animosity from the last ANI. Regarding MT and the Ombud report. The mechanisms where a person can be fairly heard are few and most are biased. So I have to be ok with the scarlet letter MT gave me. So have a great weekend. Lightburst (talk) 16:31, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for being THE voice of reason

Thanks for being THE voice of reason. I don't mind if people don't like the topic, and I understand why Trump fans might object, but I'm not doing anything unusual. Articles are created by experienced users in their userspace all the time. I have done everything I can to NOT draw attention to it, to NOT misuse my space to promote or advance a POV. Yet this started with a blatant assumption of bad faith. It's weird.

Thanks for bringing focus back to PAG and what is allowed in the article creation process. BTW, have you read those DKY? I wrote? The topic is barely scratched at Steele dossier. This is not about the "dossier golden showers video", this is about the original rumor that Trump knew about right after it began circulation. The one that got him to send Cohen on a search and destroy mission for several years. It's a pretty big story about kompromat and national security issues. The Senate Intelligence Committee took it seriously and went much further than the Mueller Report. Cohen's 2019 testimony is the real clincher. He spilled so many beans.

It's fascinating how those who chased the 2013 alleged tapes and those who chased the 2016 dossier's alleged tapes, ended up, as declared by Judge Cooper, finding they were chasing "one and the same" tapes. He tied them together, in court. There is really only one very real rumor about one alleged event, and it started in 2013. Steele's sources just repeated that 2013 rumor to him in 2016. Trump succeeded in squashing the rumor until Steele's sources resurrected it. That really pissed him off, and then he made the mistake of telling very specific, and easily debunked, lies about it to Comey and others. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:05, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, you're very welcome, and thank you so much for the kind words. (For those who are watching here, this is about an MfD of something in Valjean's user space, where I have advocated for keep.) I don't really want to get into the subject matter that much, but I know an inappropriate use of the deletion process when I see it. (I'm not sure what DYKs you are referring to. Oh, yes I have read that.) I've also seen and I appreciate the other things you have said about how you feel about this, on other pages. (In particular, I had no idea about your diagnosis until you disclosed it. I've never noticed any problems with how you communicate.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:27, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I have always lived with the disadvantages of my Aspergers, but only learned about it after our son was diagnosed in first grade. Our daughter is fine. At the time, it was a "new" thing. It's painful for me to admit, and I have tried to avoid "coming out" with it here, but it's a simple fact that should be factored into "who I am". I don't expect to receive special treatment, but if it helps people understand me better, maybe that's a good thing. My son has it bad enough that he cannot hold a job or finish an education, so he was "retired" with a full pension at 18 years old. Even though females are much less likely to be affected, his female cousin is much worse off, and she is even going through sexual transition. Her life has been chaotic. There are several family members, primarily on my wife's side of the family, who are on the spectrum, some who function fairly well, and others who do not. I'm "only" slightly affected. It could be much worse, but it's still a daily irritation. The genetic factor is huge, and my wife's ancestry from an island society with a very small population meant that inbreeding occurred, hence the concentration of victims in the family. Otherwise, the incidence rate there is pretty much like other countries. There is nothing like that on my side of the family, so we don't know why it affects me and a couple others of my family members. Being a bit different meant I was a loner and somewhat socially awkward in school, so I found solace by excelling academically. Such is life. I carry on. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:37, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing this, and please know that, although some people on the spectrum have distinctive features of how they communicate, that can give-away their status, I've never noticed that with you, and only know about this because you chose to post about it. I mean that as a compliment. You have my best wishes with that MfD. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:22, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Your kindness is much appreciated, especially at a time when kindness is rare. I don't expect or want you to be partisan or less than neutral in all of this. I'd rather hear honesty, but you seem to be able to pack it in a nice package, something I often fail to do. I have never been accused of being tactful. Any good advice is welcome. I note the complaints about BLP issues. I wish I understood exactly what they mean. BLP applies to "unsourced" negative information, not negative information. NPOV means we document what RS say, without the imposition of editorial POV, and objections to "negative" content seem just like partisan "I don't like it", protectionism, and whitewashing to me. Maybe you can parse it for me. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:59, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks again. Here is how I would parse the BLP issues. To some degree, editors are misusing the BLP policy to address issues that are really the NPOV policy. I think the biggest concern is that it sounds like a content fork with a negative POV. The whole "pee tape" business is widely perceived by sources, and by partisans, as something that is "negative" about Trump. Your draft comes across as "here is all the evidence that the pee tape accusations might not be a hoax". I just checked, and Pee tape is a red link, while Trump pee tape is a redirect to Steele dossier. I don't want to read that page, but I'm going to guess that it presents evidence for and against the pee tape actually existing, and gives primary weight to the evidence that the tape never existed. You've assembled sources (largely independent of the Steele dossier), that point toward a different conclusion. Editors are seeing that, with good reason, as a fork of the Steel dossier page, that focuses on sources that are negative about Trump. Strictly speaking, that's a POV problem, rather than a BLP problem, but it's still a problem, and BLP has a sort of emotive heft that makes it an easy go-to for editors who want to sound like they are making an important criticism (see also WP:CRYBLP). So my suggestion for how to fix the problem is to (1) look for any sources that might fail WP:RS (I haven't looked, so I don't know whether or not there are any), and remove any if you find them, and (2) expand the page with sources that disagree with the existence of a scandal, that would present a counterpoint to the argument that the scandal is real. And, with that, write the page without taking a side (in Misplaced Pages's voice) as to which "side" is "correct". --Tryptofish (talk) 00:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

While the first public knowledge of the pee tape rumor came from the dossier on January 10, 2017, and is mentioned in the Steele dossier article, that is a very misleading story, if one stops there. That article cannot discuss aspects of the rumor that are not named in the dossier, so it only mentions a small part of the full story. After the dossier made people aware of the rumor, sources began to dig, and then investigations started, and what came forth changes the story completely.

The rumor started in 2013, right after Trump left Moscow, and Steele's sources just repeated the rumor to him. Cohen really spilled the beans with his testimony, from the inside, that revealed he learned of the rumor then, immediately told Trump, and then began a years long hunt for the source of the rumor and location of the tapes, if they existed. So we're dealing with a big coverup and catch and kill operation, with a web of secrecy among Cohen and his cohorts who tried to find and suppress the tape(s). Legal cases, and witnesses, shed even more light on what happened. Trump's many lies, very specific and easily debunked, make it even more interesting, and make him look guilty, even if he might not be. Why does he act guilty? Why did he order a hunt for tapes that did not exist? Why did he lie about the exact and only time the incident could have occurred, when no one had mentioned that time yet? Only he would know that. Comey changed from a skeptic to a maybe peeliever. So how do we tell that story without it being negative about Trump? We always include denials with allegations, per NPOV and BLP. But whe the denial is a huge lie, what then? Do we leave it out, even though documented in the most impeccable sources? Negative content that is properly sourced is allowed and does not violate our BLP and NPOV rules, sometimes even when it is the largest portion of the article. We have rules that expressly allow articles of that type, because articles on some topics cannot be other than negative. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:59, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

As I said earlier, I don't want to get tangled up in the content, but my advice that I gave just above is how I think one can avoid the BLP criticisms. The alternative is to hunker down and keep arguing that you think you are right, but that way lies more drama. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:21, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, hunkering down wouldn't be good. Unfortunately, I still am at a loss to understand the problem without mention of the specific contents considered a problem. Maybe I should explain the "fork" issue. This article is like an article about one "bird" with lots of info and the full context. The dossier article just mentions the "bird" in passing, and only partially and misleadingly out of context. Both articles are legitimate. (Once this article is established, the Steele dossier article's content about the pee tape and rumor will need to be tweaked a little bit so it's at least accurate.)

The Steele dossier article isn't an article about the pee tape. That is not the primary topic. That is only one of many allegations, so it gets very little attention, and only in the context of the way the dossier mentions it. This is about the 2013 pee tape rumor as a whole (only secondarily, but necessarily, about the alleged tape), and kompromat, as those are the real issues. This is about the whole story, and the Steele dossier#Kompromat and "golden showers" allegations section would link to this as the "main" article for the topic. Nearly everything else here is not mentioned there.

This is about an FSB operation to compromise Trump with a honey trap inspired by Trump's own revealing actions at a Las Vegas nightclub, and he appears to be a willing "victim". He also did some other, very public, sexually embarrassing things while in Moscow, and they have been publicized before the dossier was written. They are not mentioned anywhere at Misplaced Pages. He physically accosted two different girls and propositioned them, all in public. He claimed to be very careful, but he wasn't. He was also involved in a loud row with hotel security. A group of prostitutes wanted to come up to his room without signing in, and Trump was with them and defending them. He was also seen in an elevator with a group of prostitutes. This is all what witnesses said.

Sources draw a narrative of him being set up by the FSB and his Russian acquaintances, who had close ties to the FSG and Putin, then trying to suppress and cover it up, and after the dossier repeated the old rumor, lying about it to Comey and others. Then his own lawyer testified and revealed the whole story, right from the beginning in 2013, and testified about how "many" people knew of the rumor and were involved in trying to suppress it. Cohen revealed the dossier didn't originate the rumor.

It's hard to tell the facts about Trump's lying, as described in many RS, in a positive manner, as that would be dishonest and violate NPOV. The RS describe those lies as a negative fact that demonstrates his consciousness of guilt. How can anyone claim that's a BLP or NPOV issue? Maybe they're referring to something else? I wish they'd tell me. Discussing this in hypotheticals doesn't work. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:41, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

As I've said, I don't want to get tangled up in the content issues. I'd prefer that you not continue to post summaries of what the draft page says, here on my talk page. As an alternative, you can ask me to look at such-and-such a section of the draft page, to make the same point. That said, I do understand that you are trying to use specifics, rather than general principles (hypotheticals, as you refer to them), to get a clear understanding of what I'm trying to say, and I do want to cooperate with you on that.

(Before I get into the details, I just looked at the MfD page, and I see that you left a talk page message to the editor who most recently commented delete. I want to suggest that replying to every delete comment can look to uninvolved editors like bludgeoning, and I also want to say that it's a waste of time trying to reason with that particular editor, who is a notorious POV-pusher. My guess is that the MfD is headed towards a "no consensus" close, which is functionally the same as "keep".)

Now getting back to the matter at hand, I took another look at the draft page, and I'll try to name here some specific things that I saw, that I would regard as significant POV problems. Something I noticed very quickly were the draft section headings. Some of them are: "Trump's lies to Comey", "Trump's phony alibi and excuses", "List of repeated and unforced lies to Comey", "Attempted cover-ups, evasion, and attempts to find the tapes", "Trump's behavior makes him vulnerable to blackmail", and "Trump as national security risk". And that's only a partial list. (And my head is reeling, just typing it here, even though I'm absolutely no defender of the guy.) When you said above that "It's hard to tell the facts about Trump's lying, as described in many RS, in a positive manner, as that would be dishonest and violate NPOV", you misunderstand NPOV, and I want to explain why I consider it a misunderstanding. Every one of those section titles violates the NPOV policy, and does so rather badly. Maybe there are RS that substantiate each of the assertions in those headers (I haven't checked, and I don't know). But those assertions need to be attributed to those sources, not stated in Misplaced Pages's voice (whether in section headers or in the paragraph text). The existence of such sources does not make it honest to word those headers in those ways. Here are my suggestions for some possible better ways to write each of the headers I quoted: "Trump's statements to Comey", "Trump's explanations", "List of disputed statements to Comey", "Problems in attempts to find the tapes", "Vulnerability to blackmail", and "National security risks". (There are doubtless other ways to write those, but that's what I came up with.) I ask that you look at each header, as I quoted it from your draft, and as I revised it here, and compare them side-by-side. I hope that you can see the differences, and how my revisions are actually the right way to be NPOV. If that's unclear to you, please ask me.

I won't list further examples for now, hoping that this has provided an explanation that you can extrapolate to the rest of the draft. I'll also suggest that you review WP:RGW, because Misplaced Pages articles cannot correct problems in what the media are reporting. Misplaced Pages can only report what the sources say, without taking sides. When editors look at your draft page, the same things stand out to them, that stood out to me. Editors come away with the impression that "this is a lot of stuff attacking Trump", and they make a mental jump from that, to "BLP violation". Even if they are being imprecise about what the BLP policy actually says, that's the thought process. If I may say so, you should want neurotypical editors to look at the draft page, and think to themselves "this is presenting facts about what happened", rather than "this is a lot of stuff that is all negative". I can see now that I agree with you that this isn't really a content fork, but when something comes across the way your draft currently does, even I had a subjective reaction that it was a content fork.

I hope that's clearer. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I love it! You are very clear. It's interesting that before you wrote the above, I had tried to look at the headings with different "glasses", and I had been working on changing exactly those headings, but my versions may be different than yours. I'll go back and probably use yours, as they are much likely to be better. Thanks for being so patient. It's much appreciated. I also agree about that editor. NOTHERE comes to mind, but sometimes they do make good edits. It's just any topic related to TFG that is a problem for them. I'll move the message to their talk page. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 22:14, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

--Tryptofish (talk) 22:16, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I have heeded your excellent suggestions and revised those, and other, headings. Are there any left that are borderline or dubious? What about the title? I wonder if I've tried to cover too much territory, since this is a national security issue. One could split it into two articles, one about pee tape rumor and another about Trump as a national security risk. There is a lot of stuff about that. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 22:39, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

This is an interesting development. They were willing to come here and abuse the MfD process, but not defend themself or be collaborative and collegial. Hmmm.... I really wonder who they are. I have suspicions, but... -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:15, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

The header changes I suggested were examples, and only skimmed the surface. I just made, and then self-reverted, a more comprehensive revision of the section headers. You can look at the version where I changed them, and see what you think about that. I think it's important for me to point out that it will be necessary to significantly change the text itself. The section headers are just a beginning of that.

It's true that the page covers a lot of stuff. It would probably be best to NPOV it first, and then evaluate what to do about page scope. I think there might be sections that could be combined.

Yes, I saw that retirement statement. Probably best not to comment about it until the people with advanced permissions make a determination. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:29, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I like those changes and will give you permission to make such changes. As it's in my userspace, such permission is necessary, unlike a draft in draftspace. I'll add a note to that effect. We can discuss any changes that are of consequence. You may want to do it on my talk, or just continue here. It's up to you. If there are any sources that aren't the best (it's all on a case-by-case basis), we can also discuss that. I might be able to find better sources. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thanks for giving me "permission to edit" (which, strictly speaking, I do not need). But I really do not want to do that work for you. It would become very time consuming for me, and it's just not something I want to get tangled up in. I'm happy to give advice, but you are going to have to do this yourself. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:33, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, that's an important difference between userspace and draftspace, and it's not absolute. There are exceptions, but they have to be good ones. I understand and respect your reticence. Just offer the help you feel comfortable with. I'll be grateful for anything. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Actually, there is no policy basis for saying that other editors need your permission to edit something in your userspace. That's a misunderstanding on your part. There's a matter of courtesy in avoiding editing someone else's userspace content, but it's not a policy violation. I can see at least one good-faith editor at the MfD who is holding it against you, that you discourage other editors from editing it. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:02, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Here's what I posted there. The "exception" I mention is indeed about courtesy. It's not absolute. In that you're right.

Relevant guidelines for this MfD'

Different "namespaces" here at Misplaced Pages are governed by different rules, and that includes the rules for MfDs. Valjean's work here is governed by personal "userspace drafts", not Misplaced Pages:Drafts (which governs drafts in "draftspace"). Unlike a "personal userspace draft",

"Articles in the Misplaced Pages:Draft namespace can be edited and moved into the main encyclopedia by anyone. So you can create the draft in your personal userspace, move it to the draft namespace to be edited by anyone, and later move it to the main encyclopedia."(Source: Help:Userspace draft)

This implies that a user has nearly full control of a draft in their "personal userspace", both creation and publication, but not their work in draftspace. (That "nearly" implies that control is not absolute, as with all things at Misplaced Pages. There are exceptions to every rule.) If I'm wrong, please enlighten us. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:58, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

As we seem to agree, this is primarily a matter of courtesy. The distinction I would make comes down to the fact that no policy says that you can demand that courtesy. If some editor, not me, to whom you never offered an invitation to edit the draft page, were to make such an edit, they would not be doing something that is intrinsically against policy, intrinsically disruptive. If the edit improved the draft page, it would be an acceptable edit, permission or not. When you make it sound like you want other editors to get your permission before they can edit the draft page, it sounds to other editors like you are claiming something more than courtesy, claiming something more like full control, and they are understandably reacting negatively to that. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:25, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I get my understanding from this wording: "Articles in the Misplaced Pages:Draft namespace can be edited and moved into the main encyclopedia by anyone. So you can create the draft in your personal userspace, move it to the draft namespace to be edited by anyone,..."

So an "article in the Misplaced Pages:Draft namespace can be edited and moved ... by anyone". When it's in "personal userspace", that can't happen. (That's where "you can create the draft in your personal userspace"). It's created/edited by you in your own "personal userspace". When you later "move it to the draft namespace", it can "be edited by anyone".

I'm not a lawyer, but my parsing has been used by a judge to decide a case without even calling witnesses. The judge just wrote their decision and quoted almost word for word from my statement, and threw out the case, thus saving over 30 people and entities from a trial.

Maybe my parsing is wrong here, but it appears to me like there is a difference between "personal userspace" and "draft namespace". If there isn't a difference, what's the point of having them?

I know they are "reacting negatively", but that's because they are approaching this draft as if it was in "draft namespace", when it isn't. There's a difference. Am I totally off my rocker? The guideline could be changed to eliminate the difference, thus preventing my apparent "misunderstanding", but I think it would be better to protect editors from harassment by making the difference even more clear, and thus prevent this abuse of MfD. Removing editor protections would lessen the incentive to write articles, especially controversial ones. What editor wants to go through what I'm going through? POV warriors would just harass them while they are trying to create an article. These POV warriors don't care about GNG. They want to prevent full and accurate NPOV coverage of their favorite topics. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 03:13, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Before answering here, I looked at the MfD page, and was happy to see that no new drama happened since I logged off yesterday.

Anyway, you are definitely not "off your rocker". But I'm starting to notice some things as we discuss this, that I hadn't noticed before, that perhaps may reflect differences in the ways that neurotypical and divergent editors interpret some things. It's true that the language says explicitly that content in draft space can be edited by anyone. But there is no policy that explicitly says that content in user space cannot be edited by anyone. To the contrary, WP:OWN is a policy, and you can find the answer in the section WP:OWN#User pages. Please read what it says there, and I think it's self-explanatory. The policy language there trumps (no pun intended) what you have inferred from something that the other language, about user space, leaves out. (I suspect it leaves it out because of that issue of courtesy that we discussed earlier.)

I hope that's clear enough. I agree with you that some editors at the MfD are motivated by pro-Trump POV-pushing, although there are others who have sincere beliefs about the BLP policy. I've been attempting to point out the flaws in their arguments (and I have a lot of experience in navigating POV disputes, so I know what works and what backfires). But one has to contend with such editors nonetheless, and they can make things difficult when you are trying to save a page from deletion. And I can give you my very strong advice that the best defense is to fix the numerous and significant POV problems at your draft page. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:25, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

The BLP arguments at MfD are dubious. We do not delete an article or a draft just because a BLP violation exists somewhere in it. We fix that specific content, and if they point to such a spot, I'll fix it. I am not saying that such an actual BLP issue exists here. Everything is sourced. There is only one source we don't normally use (Medium), and in this case it's for a totally neutral, non-BLP, matter, from a Pulitzer Prize winning NYTimes reporter. On a case-by-case basis, it passes muster for this specific use.

Without them pointing it out, I'd guess it's more likely potential NPOV issues they are seeing, as I am not making "unsourced" negative claims. That would be a BLP issue. So far, they are just making evidence-free claims, and they are offensive aspersions, IOW NPA violations. They need to stop it. They have likely not even read the content, just seen the word "lies" and assumed it's a BLP violation. Well, it isn't if it's backed by RS. (We have a whole article about his lies!) Even if true and properly-sourced, phrasing can be an NPOV matter, that I'll admit, but it's not a BLP matter. Sometimes, choosing the right synonym makes all the difference. As Trump is a public figure, the bar for BLP inclusion of negative content is pretty low, but I still use good sources.

I appreciate your honest and good-faith attempts to guide this in the right direction. You are one of the few who is AGF here. There are lots of IDONTLIKEIT arguments. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:55, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm trying to do what's right. Suggestion: save a copy (maybe in a word processing program) on your computer, just in case. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Good idea. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:00, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm increasingly getting the sense that the MfD is going to end in "delete", so I increasingly think that saving a copy off-site is in your best interest. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I have some more specific suggestions on improving the draft. (I'm saying this without having looked at any of the sources, by the way.) Please start by reviewing these two pages: WP:DEPS and WP:RSP, and particularly their lists of sources that are either deprecated, or considered questionable. Then go through every source that you cite on the draft, and identify any citations from sources that are listed at either of those two pages. If you have any citations that are listed as deprecated or unreliable, delete them from the draft. If there are any sources that are listed as sometimes reliable, but possibly questionable for politics, current events, and the like, delete them too. If there are any sources where you see it as a matter of opinion whether they are OK or not, delete those as well, even if you personally feel like that is overkill. The goal is to remove any source that other editors might find a reason to question.

Then look over the remaining citations for any sources that could be characterized as "self-published", as defined at WP:SPS. Anything fitting that description, delete that too.

Then look critically at all the remaining citations, and ask yourself very honestly whether there are any where you have used the source to cite something that the source only mentions in passing, but where it is not the main point of the source. Delete those, too.

At this point, look back over the text of the draft page. There will potentially be content that no longer has sourcing cited to support it. Delete all of that material. I don't know how much material that will be, because I haven't checked it myself. I'm sure this is something that you can do, on your own. It's possible that a significant amount of the draft will be removed. But once you have done that, you will have gone a significant way towards fixing POV problems, and fixing perceptions of BLP problems. Check back with me after you have completed that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

There are no deprecated sources or sources not approved at WP:RSP. I have regularly double-checked. What you're asking goes far beyond our PAG for sourcing and verifiability, but I understand your suggestion is out of an abundance of caution. What I have done is my usual practice of using sources on a case-by-case basis, recognizing that no source is always reliable, and some sources are reliable in certain instances, but not in others. Opinions are usually attributed and/or in quotation marks. Maybe you should take the time to read the draft. It won't take long. Treat it like you would an article in The New Yorker or Washington Monthly. (Yes, I know we have other rules here. Unlike them, I cite all my sources. )

Maybe I'll end up having to only tell part of the story (but which part?), IOW bow to whitewashing demands. The question is which RS to ignore, and how to do it without violating our goal of documenting the sum of all human knowledge (about this topic) as it's told in RS. Anything less is unwikipedian, but those are the demands of some editors who don't want any of this at Misplaced Pages even though it easily passes GNG.

Did you see my talk page thread there? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:23, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I forgot about one citation from a source I mentioned above. That is Medium, which is normally not used, per WP:RSP: "should be avoided unless the author is a subject-matter expert". The author is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist for the New York Times, and the content is totally neutral and not problematic in a BLP sense. I believe that on a case-by-case basis, it passes muster for this specific use. I don't usually use it, but it contains a nice timeline (with its sources) that harmonizes with what other RS say. It's compiled by lawyer and journalist Abbie VanSickle at NYTimes. "Abbie VanSickle is a lecturer at the journalism school and a reporter for The Marshall Project, where she covers criminal justice in California. She has also worked as a reporter for the UC Berkeley Investigative Reporting Program, the Center for Investigative Reporting and the Tampa Bay Times." Abbie VanSickle ’11 Key Part of Team Awarded Pulitzer Prize in National Reporting -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not the person you need to convince. You are, of course, free to take responsibility for the draft in whatever form you think is best. I do wonder, however, why my careful following of the "mainstream media" has never led me to coverage about the pee tape allegations being true. I think that good-faith editors who are not POV-pushers might look at the draft and think "why is this page emphasizing things that I thought mainstream sources had dismissed as a hoax?" Again, you don't need to answer that for me – and I don't want you to – but rather, to improve the draft page so it doesn't come across that way. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

PS: I'll add a neurotypical suggestion that making some concessions on page content, even if you feel those concessions are unnecessary, can be a way to win over editors who are skeptical. It's like a gesture of good faith. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:37, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

The premise of RS is that the allegation first publicly appeared in the Steele dossier, and that pretty much all coverage occurred on and after January 10, 2017, and focused only on Steele and the dossier, as if that was the origin and creator of an unproven salacious allegation about Trump. Most coverage happened then, and as there were no investigations, testimony from Cohen and others, etc. at that time, it was immediately rejected as a preposterous, salacious, and ridiculous allegation, a hoax, and lots of other accusations against Steele based on zero evidence. That, for many, is their unchanged image of the story. They don't know that much more came to light later, but, because it's an icky topic, it was largely ignored. It's as if journalists were afraid to touch it. But many still did their work and learned a lot more. You just have to find and read the sources. That's what I have done, and it's all in RS. I have done a lot of work. Contrary stories exist, with denials, but they are in unreliable sources, ergo they do not have due weight for mention here.

If you want NPOV "balance", and we do, RS do provide it. The counter balancing story to the "maybe the pee tape" does exist is Trump's denials and lies about it, and that doesn't help him. There is no "good" way out of this for him. He closed that door by repeatedly lying about it, and in the most childish way possible, telling lies about the timing that only a perpetrator could know. Those lies were like a traile of bread crumbs for Comey and journalists, leading to a number of RS alleging a certain time period where the incident might have happened. "MIGHT HAVE"!!! Not DID happen. We don't know for sure. When one looks at the timeline for Trump's weekend in Moscow, a very welll-documented timeline, there is really only one time period where it could have happened, and Trump claimed, without prompting, that he wasn't even in Moscow at that time. Well, his own bodyguard, pageant host, social media, his own tweets, flight records, etc. proved he was lying. A false alibi is admissible evidence as a proof of "consciousness of guilt". Comey was the first, but not only, one to use those words about Trump's lies.

After that, and more under the radar (unless one reads more widely than the popular press), one finds that many RS went deeper and found that the allegation did not start with Steele's sources, and that Trump learned of the rumor right after he left Moscow in 2013, and assigned Cohen the job of tracking it down. (How many people know that? We never mention it at Misplaced Pages, yet it's a proven fact.)

The Mueller report only touched the topic, but deliberately did not go deeper, yet a footnote became the ONLY subject of a whole lawsuit, and that lawsuit, much to the consternation of its instigator (Rtskhiladze), revealed that he had changed his story and likely lied to Mueller, and that he had good reason, provided by evidence in his own emails, to believe that the alleged salacious tapes of Trump with prostitutes he had been hunting for Cohen, and the tapes mentioned by Steele, were "one and the same" tapes. That's what Judge Cooper said. He revealed that Rtskhiladze's claim that the tapes he had "stopped" were "fake" was likely not a good faith claim. To the contrary, Rtskhiladze, Cohen, and Trump had all acted as if the tapes were real and had to be suppressed by any means, and Cohen said he was willing to pay a lot for them.

The Senate Intelligence Committee report went much deeper and really examined the pee tape rumor, including lots of evidence of witness testimony and allegations of many forms of Trump's alleged salacious activity in Russia and his vulnerability to blackmail.

Then we have Cohen's own testimony in 2019, where he spilled the beans even further, proving that Steele had nothing to do with the creation or origins of the rumor. (How many people know that? We never mention that a Misplaced Pages, and the Steele dossier article is currently in error.)

The picture that emerges from all these RS is not of "the pee tape allegations being true", as you put it. The picture is that there is more evidence that it is likely true, no evidence that it is false, and that we do NOT know if it is true. I am like Comey, who is open to it being true. There is no evidence that the story is false or a hoax, contrary to what many sources say. So after January 2017, many sources went much further, and that's what I discovered, and what we do not cover. There is a GNG size hole in our coverage of the "sum of all human knowledge" on this topic. It is our duty to include it. The question is how to do it best and most faithfully to what RS say. I don't have a magic answer for that question. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, tl;dr. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:07, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

And now I'm pinged that Nickps has dragged me to ANI. I only asked him to provide evidence. That's a reasonable request not worthy of misusing ANI. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad that the MfD has closed as "no consensus". And I've made my views clear at ANI. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:07, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

You still amaze me.

Thank you for your voice. --ARoseWolf 11:17, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

You are very welcome (needless to say!). When I saw your post on your user talk page, I remembered my own feeling when, a couple of years ago, I felt the same way and posted similarly. I know what that feels like, and I care about making things right when wiki-friends feel that way. So that's why I said what I said at the WikiProject talk page (). In fact, editors going around and making drive-by edits that get in the way of what other editors are trying to accomplish, and doing so simply in the name of keeping things supposedly "orderly", is one of the things that especially annoys me. And I've recently seen this happen at some of the WikiProjects I keep an eye on, where somebody who is clueless that I'm watching there comes by and labels the project "inactive" (with a template that actually discourages new editors from making it active again). So, I'm happy to call BS when I see it. And in your case, there was also the much greater harm of making good-faith editors feel unwelcome because of their personal backgrounds. I have no use for that. If you run into any such situation, please always feel free to ask me for whatever help I can provide. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:04, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It's been a series of, in my opinion, egregiously biased discussions against Indigenous people and Indigenous owned/allied media sources on Misplaced Pages. Mocking Indigenous editors by saying that capitalizing Indigenous shows favoritism over other groups of people, like "colonials" and "religious" people, pushed me over the line. That editor has no business even discussing Indigenous topics let alone editing them. Their entire argument was based on that and worse, it was accepted in the close. We were said to have provided no policy and guideline evidence in the discussion despite presenting English language style guides, the statements from multiple reliable sources that Misplaced Pages uses on the regular, and the United Nations making a addendum to their own writing guidelines for member nations. They called the use of style guides as a source a preference and said that our preferred style is not shared by everyone. They said it doesn't matter how sources write something because ewe shouldn't be copying them anyway. They said the UN is inconsistent and we don't have to follow them either. I personally don't give a damn what they think or care about their opinion about subjects they have no business commenting on. Keep your racist and bigoted views to yourself. The rest of the world has long since passed Misplaced Pages by and these entrenched racial views need to go. --ARoseWolf 14:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's sad. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

EEng ANI thread

I didn't say it was a suggestion of self-harm that was likely to succeed, or to do any lasting damage, but it's just shocking to me that any comment anywhere near that harsh would be tolerated. Where would you draw the line in this genre of comments being acceptable? If someone had conducted a coordinated and possibly successful campaign to have someone slash their wrists, I would block them permanently without question. Having some detail exactly how I could suffocate myself would be unlikely to succeed given I'm not suicidal and they are clearly just angry at me. Having someone tell me to sit on a sharp stick is likely to be interpreted as an angry turn of phrase, not a serious suggestion, though following it could result in bleeding out. Having someone tell me to slap myself in the face is not going to result in serious harm, but in no event would I consider that civil. I would expect that any negative comment about me and my body or what I should do with it would be unacceptable in a civil work environment. Isn't that what Misplaced Pages is supposed to be? -- Beland (talk) 22:34, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Are you really not aware of this common idiom? E.g. . It is vaguely related to an actual medical thing that can happen but that has nothing to do with self-harm . 100.36.106.199 (talk) 01:32, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Of course I'm aware of the expression and its social purpose in this context, which is to insult rather than having any expectation that the target would attempt to perform the requested action, any more than "go suck a bag of dicks" is a literal suggestion. That said, the insult uses the language of self-harm to convey its message. This is not acceptable on Misplaced Pages either in terms of being an insult or using this type of language. Similarly, using the expression "that's gay" to give a negative opinion about something is using homophobic language, even if the speaker means pretty much the same thing as "that's dumb". And bigoted language, regardless of whether or not there is a discriminatory intent, is even more uncivil and unacceptable than non-bigoted insult equivalents. -- Beland (talk) 02:23, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

This is all perfectly sensible except that "until you're blue in the face" has nothing at all to do with self-harm (literally or metaphorically), so that the value of the analogies crumbles completely. You got called childish, and then you went to ANI to complain that someone told you to off yourself -- amazing that this didn't work out. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 02:38, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I could believe "arguing until you are blue in the face" is unrelated to self-harm, but EEng told someone to "hold your breath until you turn blue", pretty clearly invoking (for the purpose of generating an insult) a situation in which the victim's tissues are deprived of oxygen. As the WebMD article points out, this can cause the person to lose consciousness and fall down. This can cause serious injury; someone in my family got dizzy and passed out once, and had to go to the emergency room because hitting their head on the way down caused them to temporarily lose their short- and long-term memory. In older people, this type of fall can also cause broken bones, which has also happened to one of my family members. -- Beland (talk) 03:05, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

the victim lol ok bro. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 11:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

What word would you prefer to use to describe someone who is self-harming as a result of bullying directed at them? -- Beland (talk) 19:23, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

This conversation is as if I reached the conclusion (based on our exchanges so far, and your obvious unfamiliarity with English idiom) that you are actually a Portugese farmer, and then I made multiple posts of many hundreds of words based on this theory, and every single other person in those discussions pointed out that I was being ridiculous, and then I called you "senhor agricultor", and you were like "whatever, bro", and now I'm asking what name I'm possible supposed to call a guy who lives outside Lisbon and grows cork trees for a living. The correct answer would be something like "wtf is this surrealist absurdity?" 100.36.106.199 (talk) 22:09, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I used the word "victim" to describe a person in a hypothetical circumstance, so it really need not have anything to do with real events. If you don't think the other editor in this conversation was being insulted or bullied, that's fine, I can agree to disagree. -- Beland (talk) 23:50, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

And no, EEng was not telling me to off myself; their comments were not directed at me. They were directed at a third editor, and I am embarrassed for Misplaced Pages that they had to put up with that. I reported it to WP:ANI because it's against our behavioral guidelines, and EEng is a chronic an ongoing offender. -- Beland (talk) 03:07, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

BTW, that page on 24campfire.com is a pretty good example of things we don't tolerate on talk pages; I see posters calling people "leftard" and "douche", and one displaying a confederate flag. Misplaced Pages isn't a right-wing forum where people are encouraged to spout off vulgar opinions; it's a collaborative research project where civility is required. -- Beland (talk) 03:12, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The meaning is well established and has nothing to do with self harm. Claiming that it is is an error at best and a serious false accusation at worst. North8000 (talk) 02:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The point is that everyone interprets speech and language somewhat differently based on their background and culture. This is one reason why people in leadership positions can come off as milquetoast. They know that language is tricky so they try to use language that won't cause unintended problems. There's been many times where I've made jokes in a Misplaced Pages discussion only to be accused of making personal attacks (And I've made those, too). This kind of thing happens a lot. Not only do people have issues with reading comprehension that is tainted by our own experience, but even having face to face communication can be incredibly trying. I was just telling Tryptofish recently about a joke I made to a fellow Democrat about Biden and Trump forgoing the debate (which turned out terribly) and opting for a dance off instead. I thought my joke was funny and terribly non-political, drawing on both the culture of Idiocracy and the viral trend of doing things for the likes. Well, my joke wasn't taken that way. Instead, I was accused of being a Trump supporter, and was told that I was encouraging people not to vote. Viriditas (talk) 02:49, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

True, but that does not allow an accusation of intending a very bad unusual meaning. North8000 (talk) 02:58, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

No doubt, but I think it explains it. AGF, I think Beland truly believes what they are saying, perhaps not realizing there are multiple interpretations, of which there is only one likely interpretation in a given context. This is the essence of the problem, and it's something I see play out again and again, not just here, but pretty much everywhere. A current example playing out in real time is the drag queen tableau at the Olympics. Christians see it as an attack on their faith, while art historians see it as homage to a 17th century painting about pagan gods. Viriditas (talk) 03:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

And more importantly, in neither interpretation is this civil behavior appropriate for Misplaced Pages talk pages. -- Beland (talk) 03:08, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that when you police and regulate speech like that, you are dealing with the same cultural influences, in this case subcultural, at work. For example, if I said to you, "Have you given any thought to Roko's basilisk?" in this discussion, you would probably shrug it off as meaningless. But that statement was considered a blockable offense (and equivalent to a personal attack) on a site like LessWrong. So trying to come up with a universal code of conduct for speech is not as easy as you might think. Another way to think about this is how different countries, particularly the US, Canada, UK, and Europe, treat the depiction of sex and violence and how they regulate it. The cultural component here is huge. Viriditas (talk) 03:20, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Are you arguing that despite their long experience of editing and history of blocks and complaints at ANI, that EEng was under the impression, for cultural difference reasons, that this comment:

See WP:IDHT. Why don't you hold your breath until you turn blue? That might convince people.

is friendly, civil, and appropriate for Misplaced Pages talk pages? -- Beland (talk) 03:37, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes. My reading of that out of context quote is not the same as yours. I see someone drawing a direct analogy between IDHT, or refusing to get the point, and the metaphor of holding one’s breath. In fact, if you read the IDHT page, it makes the analogy quite clear, and even shows an image of someone sticking their fingers in their ears and mouthing "I can’t hear you", which is the same as threatening to hold one’s breath in the comparison. "Believing that you have a valid point does not confer the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told otherwise." The site Brainly has a more complete explanation of the metaphor: "Threatening to hold one's breath until they get what they want is considered an idle threat primarily because it's a type of coercion that is unlikely to be effective and can be self-harming. This form of persuasion, much like some historical examples of political intimidation, is based on the fallacy of argumentum ad baculum, or an appeal to force. The ineffective nature of such threats is explained through human psychology and historical precedents. For example, as described by Cassius Dio, it is part of human nature to issue promises and threats without fully committing to carrying them out. Moreover, when a person threatens to hold their breath, the natural survival instincts of the human body will eventually override the conscious effort to avoid breathing, making this an ineffective strategy for getting what one wants." Viriditas (talk) 03:56, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

OK, so given your explanation, I don't see how suggesting to an editor that they act like a child and engage in an ineffective, potentially self-harmful coercive technique to get their way could be anything other than an insult (unless it's meant as friendly teasing). Drowning out someone's speech with "la la la" and fingers in your ears does not carry a danger of self-harm, though it is also childish and unreasonable. Referring someone to WP:IDHT bluntly is rude, and criticizes that editor personally rather than focusing on the actual disagreement or misunderstanding that is causing the author to not feel heard. Other editors did make progress clarifying the objections of GiantSnowman (which were not always clear) by using those techniques.

Reading this quote in context, EEng says in their own words they are "pissed" at GiantSnowman, and there's plenty of other angry context that makes clear this was an insult.

EEng's comments read as hostile starting from the edit summary, which began: "this should be obvious but apparently it's not to everyone". To be fair, GiantSnowman started to be uncivil to a third editor: "unsure if you're trolling or having AI write your responses for you". EEng was clearly annoyed by this discussion, and started to use emotional tantrum phrases like "No, no, no." and "is an absolutely terrible idea". Then got even more unhelpfully hyperbolic - remember we're talking about whether day or month should go first, here: "The idea that we're going to debate the clear preference in English-language publications from the country is either a joke or part of a plot to destroy Misplaced Pages from the inside."

As the conversation goes on, EEng starts swearing: "every goddam time they write an article". GiantSnowman called EEng's proposal "nonsense" in a not-vote. Then EEng tells GiantSnowman to hold their breath until they turn blue.

Then, after GiantSnowman agrees that EEng's proposal has consensus, instead of taking "yes" for an answer and quietly bringing this contentious thread to a close, EEng unleashes a torrent of angry comments with phrases like "butthurt", "quite obviously, my hand was already so upper that the Hubble telescope would be needed to see it". GiantSnowman requests "Stow the 'tude please." which prompts a completely gratuitous new subsection titled "'tude? You wanna see 'tude?" in which EEng rants for several paragraphs about GiantSnowman's past edits, saying "And now here you've wasted a dozen people's time with your mixed-up reading of MOS. No wonder I'm pissed off at you." (Another innocent editor previously disputed that EEng's reading of the MOS was "obvious".) Yet another editor had to declare the discussion closed to stop the ranting.

I brought to AN/I what I thought were the most obvious examples of bad conduct for brevity, but picking through the thread like this has made me realize that this was not just a one-off inappropriate comment, but an extended uncivil flying off the handle. It doesn't seem like the editors who responded to the AN/I thread took the time to look at the context. I'm sad we never got to discuss just how bad this incivility got, because RickinBaltimore closed the AN/I thread before I had a chance to respond to others' comments. But thanks for your thoughtful consideration here. -- Beland (talk) 07:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

EEng is a big topic. I think that the more specific conversation is about saying that the comment was about self-harm and critiquing folks for saying otherwise. North8000 (talk) 12:45, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, I stand by my assertion that the comment unacceptably uses the language of self-harm, even though I agree it can be (and probably was) used without actually intending that someone harm themselves or realizing the statement could be interpreted that way.

Putting any disagreement about self-harm aside, would you at least agree that EEng was being unacceptably uncivil during that conversation, especially at the end? -- Beland (talk) 20:16, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, folks, I logged on this morning and had a notification that I had something like 28 new messages. Did I get nominated for Vice-President or something?

OK, let me get serious and reply to Beland. Beland, as you know, you and I have worked well together on other things, and I want to assure you that I have no ill-will towards you. I see that other editors have already pointed out (at great length) how "holding one's breath until one's face turns blue" is a turn of phrase that does not mean instructions for anoxia, but rather, means acting childishly to demand what one wants. I also see that you did not interpret it that way, and I think that you did so in good faith. So your concern was a good faith one. But the fact remains, nonetheless, that EEng used the phrase in the common meaning and multiple editors who commented at ANI understood it that way.

EEng is indeed "a big topic". And maybe he can be faulted for peevishness in saying that to the other editor. He's had a long history of being blocked for things that he did wrong. He's also had a long history of being blocked for things that he didn't do wrong. And many editors, including me, are troubled by ANI complaints that seem to be "taking another swing" at editors who have been regarded as controversial. When you posted your ANI complaint, you didn't simply link to the "hold breath" diff, but you listed a wall of previous block history, in a way that came across as a request for a site-ban or indefinite block, and indeed you proposed a series of rapidly escalating sanctions. That might have been proportionate to a genuine threat of violence, but this wasn't a genuine threat of violence. That's why you got the reaction that you got. My advice is to try not to take it personally, but to learn from it. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, being the Misplaced Pages user page with the largest number of admitted lurkers (like me) is right up there with being the VP candidate. :-) North8000 (talk) 19:42, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm guessing you're being facetious about that "largest number" (especially with the "admitted" qualifier), but you're not actually saying I have more WP:Centijimbos than Jimbo, are you? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. WP:UNCIVIL says, I think sensibly: "While a few minor incidents of incivility that no one complains about are not necessarily a concern, a continuing pattern of incivility is unacceptable." Given what has happened, I'm scratching my head a bit about how the second part could be usefully enforced. It seems to me that if anyone is ever to be sanctioned for a continuing pattern of incivility, a history of incivility would need to be established at AN/I. If presenting a long history of bad behavior is dismissed as a "wall" or "taking another swing" at an editor who has been previously punished, then it seems we have a catch-22 where we can only sanction individual instances of egregiously bad behavior and never a chronic pattern of moderately bad and occasionally egregiously bad actions.

I expect opinions differ greatly on which blocks were deserved and whether they were too long or too short, which is why I noted which ones were shortened. And also why I presented all of them; no matter what you might think of any given block, it seems like there are still plenty of others that establish a chronic pattern of bad behavior. Would spending an enormous amount of time researching which blocks were the most controversial and dropping those have helped? Would it have helped to spend even more time pulling out actual quotes and linking to actual diffs?

It occurred to me, perhaps people who participate at AN/I are used to dealing with much worse behavior, and their level of tolerance is simply far higher than mine? That would imply no action will be taken in a chronic case like EEng until the next egregiously bad incivility. It also implies this problem would need to be dealt with in the meantime without the benefit of sanctions.

In many cases, reminding people to be civil and refocusing the conversation on the merits of a content dispute can get people to cool off and proceed to resolution. With some chronically uncivil people and EEng in particular, that sort of admonishment can just enrages them further, resulting in incivility directed at the person trying to cool off the conversation, and further "they deserve it" sort of abuse directed at editors involved in the content dispute. Previously I've been told that sort of reaction is not a site-blockable offense on its own, so the result seems to be that chronic incivility continues, and anyone who isn't willing to put up with sharp elbows just doesn't engage with certain discussions or articles or Misplaced Pages at all. Given it is now possible to block an individual editor from a specific page for a certain time, would it be appropriate to do so as a response to a moderately uncivil comment from a chronic offender? If so, is a warning required? Would that last until they say they are going to be civil and stop attacking the admin?

I'm genuinely curious what sort of solutions you would recommend. -- Beland (talk) 20:57, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your interest in what I would suggest, and I'm going to disappoint you that I don't have a good solution.

In a way, you are right about what you said in the paragraph starting "It occurred to me...". It's true that admins (I'm not an admin, by the way), tend to sanction for really bad incivility, but not for "minor" incivility, whatever "minor" really means. In some ways, Misplaced Pages has never been good at handling the civility policy. Partly, that's because different editors perceive civility different ways, in good faith, so it's difficult to define a boundary between "OK" and "not OK". But it's also because everyone's merely human, and it doesn't seem right to block someone for "understandable" conduct (even if they have had a history of doing worse). There's also the issue of not wanting to block someone who was WP:BAITed into incivility. There's a theory about some editors being WP:Unblockables, which I don't believe. (I've lost count of how many times EEng has been called an unblockable, and yet he has a lengthy block log.) And in this case, what EEng actually said was no big deal. I chose my words above carefully when I said that "maybe" it was "peevishness"; it was certainly nothing more than that.

So what I'd recommend is to accept that the civility policy is never going to be enforced in a fully satisfactory way. Remember that other editors are real people. One thing that follows from that is that they will make mistakes and lose their cool from time to time. Another thing that follows from that is that, even if other editors hold themselves to a low bar for civility, we can still choose to try to hold ourselves to a higher standard in what we do. And if you see someone be incivil to someone else, think twice before going to ANI on behalf of the victim. In this case, GS did not choose to complain, so you didn't need to step in on his behalf. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Well said. -- Beland (talk) 23:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

ANI closure

The MfD and ANI have been closed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Valjean/Rumor#Closures_at_two_drama_boards

I have left a comment about continued personal attacks here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Red-tailed_hawk#ANI_closure

You really should activate your email. If you have one you would like to use, email it to me. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:24, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm already aware that it has all been closed, because I've been following it closely. That's good, and I hope we can both start working on some constructive stuff now. As for the links you've given me to your continuing concerns about personal attacks and the like, my strong advice is to just drop all of that. And move on. No good will come of continuing to complain about it. Some editors are just hostile to you, and you cannot change that. But you can stay away from it.

As for email, I'm doing things that way on purpose, and I'm not going to change it for you. I never use email on Misplaced Pages, because I want to be extra careful about protecting my privacy. I've always done it this way. We can communicate onsite, especially at the draft talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:31, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:41, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Re: Unsubscribing

Oh, great, now I can no longer read about the latest scripts on your talk page. Thanks a lot dude. I thought you were taking one for the team. Now I have to subscribe to it and have it take up half my talk page instead? You were performing a public service. Viriditas (talk) 00:26, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Ha! I do the same thing, reading newsletters on other editors' talk pages. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:20, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Your comment triggered a madeleine moment. Many years ago, my friends and I used to inhabit a small cafe in the city, when third places were very much a thing. People would buy newspapers from around the world and leave them on the tables for the next person. I will never forget sitting there, listening to fantastic music, eating too much food and drinking too much coffee, and most of all, staying warm as SF was really cold back then, and the condensation on the windows of the cafe would fog up the glass, giving the scene outside a hazy, colored light streaked swirl that resembled an oil painting. Viriditas (talk) 19:32, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I had never subscribed in the first place. Someone just put me on the list. Maybe they used a script. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:37, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

It was your doppelgänger. You were interested in the Watchlist Cleaner script for some reason. Viriditas (talk) 19:12, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Whaddya know? I didn't even remember doing that. Good research on your part. There must have been a long time between that, and when the newsletter started again. As for my watchlist, it probably needs a really powerful cleaning agent. And disinfectant. (I'm not quite myself today. I was supposed to have an airline flight this afternoon, but it was canceled, and I'm rescheduled for tomorrow. I feel, um, disrupted.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:38, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Please. I doubt most people remember half the edits they made. If you knew how many times I searched for a topic on Google, found a search result that led me to Misplaced Pages, and then discovered a great article on the subject, only to wonder about the authorship, and then to find, to quite my embarrassment, that I was actually the one who wrote it, well, you would laugh. It's happened so many times that I don't even look anymore. Viriditas (talk) 19:46, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I think I remember what I had for breakfast this morning. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I think I've told you this several times, but I like telling the story because it's so fascinating. NPR aired a segment a decade ago that interviewed several vetted memory savants. They were quite literally in tears because they couldn't forget what they ate for breakfast every day for the past 20 years. The show was about the necessity and benefits of forgetting, and how much we needed to do it to have healthy and happy lives. It's also interesting to take this idea and put it into other contexts, such as the process of dealing with anger, forgiveness, grieving, etc. Forgetting is, in many ways, very important, although socially, we pretend it's a bad thing that makes us look feeble. It's not. Viriditas (talk) 20:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I forgot to mention, stay safe. I think I can intuit why your flight was cancelled. Stay on top of civil alerts. Viriditas (talk) 21:37, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I've decided not to ask you why, until I get there. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

No magic. Just look at a weather map. :) Viriditas (talk) 21:54, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, I'm back, uneventfully. You had me wondering, sounded like it might have been Gulag-related. As it turns out, the flight was cancelled because of weather, although it wasn't really located within the worst of what's on that map you linked to. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:12, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Glad you're okay. I had something weird happen to me when I last flew from JFK to HNL. It was an 11+ hour flight. I had a good seat, but when I stood up to get some air and walk around, I realized I couldn't move my shoulder to get my arm out of my jacket. I'm still dealing with that loss of mobility today. I'm hoping to see an orthopedist soon. Doctor Google says it's probably a torn rotator cuff, but there's something else going on. I noticed what looks like sarcopenia as well. FWIW, I've had problems with my left hand and forearm for as long as I can remember, so I wonder if it is some kind of underlying condtion related to arthritis as well. I had carpal tunnel syndrome back in 1997, and I was able to cope until around 2000, when I had to give up playing piano and guitar altogether. This is the first time I've ever had issues with my shoulder, but the fact that it's on the same side as the previous problems makes me wonder if there's a connection. Viriditas (talk) 23:19, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm so sorry to hear that. It sounds quite unpleasant. Is the difficulty moving because it's painful to move it, or just resistant to motion? In any case, I do hope you see an orthopedist soon. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Viriditas, I noticed this thread and, as a retired PT, I'm intrigued. (When a health care professional says "Oh, that's interesting!", watch out. We have morbid senses of humor, and pathologies interest us.) I automatically think about possible differential diagnoses. You say "loss of mobility". Do you mean weakness, stiffness, and/or pain? Did any weakness on the plane occur in connection with pain? A "torn rotator cuff" doesn't occur spontaneously without any provocation. It would be quite painful. Are there symptoms of neurological deficits like pain, weakness, loss of sensation, tingling, weakened or lost reflexes, etc.? I'm wondering if there could be some variation of a Saturday night palsy thing going on (just much higher up). Being stuck in one position for several hours can mean some nerves were compressed for so long that they lost their function. Sometimes there is recovery and sometimes not. I've seen this happen. The presentation and medical history often provide the diagnosis without any other investigation. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It's really not clear what precipitated the event, but I did sit down last February, close my eyes, and tried to recall what happened. Nothing came up at first, and then a few minutes later, a memory popped up into my head out of nowhere. It turns out that a month before my trip, I remember sitting parked in the driver's seat of my car and doing something really stupid. My keys had somehow slipped out of my pocket and fell into the floor of the passenger seat behind me. I recalled thinking to myself, "Hey, I wonder how flexible I am, can my left arm go behind the seat and reach back behind my body?" I used to be really flexible when I was younger, not quite a contortionist, but I remember watching those magician videos as a kid and reading about people like Houdini, and trying to fit into small spaces (like a cat, "if I fits, I sits"). Well, I'm no longer a kid, and I think I must have torn something when I did this. I didn't feel a thing until weeks later when I was flying at 30,000 feet. Viriditas (talk) 02:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh! I recognize that symptom. It's a memory issue that afflicts us older characters. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 03:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Arbitration case opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Historical elections. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Historical elections/Evidence. Please add your evidence by August 20, 2024, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Historical elections/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Party Guide/Introduction. For the Arbitration Committee, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 00:49, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

RfA and stuff

Hello Tryptofish. I have thought about coming here for a while now; there are two things which made me resolve to do so at last. One, my post directly above: If I can leave you a template message, I can surely take the time to write a manual message. And I really like the poetry of the (in this case, necessarily) robotic/bureaucratic message being followed by a more personal note. It is both a before/after – (hopefully) becoming more aware of others' emotions and less attached to the letter of particular rules – and a reminder that there is a balance I need to strike, too.

My second reason: If you can leave a nice message to Clovermoss about RfA and stuff, I can leave you a nice message, too.

I have no hard feelings for my RfA, and I hope you do not, either. Some time we will have to work on an article together. Or something. It is hard to work on CfDs together, so I do not think we should do that.... As mentioned above, people can butt heads and then move on to collaborate later.

I wrote a debrief, containing my thoughts on the process, how I will strive to improve, and my thoughts on further RfA reform. I am curious if you have thoughts on my thoughts?

Anyhow. I am rambling at this point. I am just going to end here by saying I hope you are doing well :)

Best, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 03:40, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks so much for this very kind message!

As it happens, I read your debrief very soon after you posted somewhere that you had written it. I was struck by how much of what you chose to write about had grown out of my comments at the RfA, and I'll admit to being a little surprised at how much "impact" I had had. I guess something I can focus on is what you said about learning to do things by "reading the book". In a sense, we all do some of that (or at least we all should). But I've also found that I learn about the right way of doing things by interacting with other people, and coming to understand how other people react to the things that I did. I think that may be the important take-away message. (I've also written some related thoughts at #Hi there, above.) In an essay I wrote, at WP:KNIT#Dealing with it, I said that editors generally, and admins in particular, should approach disputes by asking: "How can I de-escalate the dispute, rather than escalate it?" And I went on to say: "The goal, ultimately, is always to get everyone back to productive content work." Implicitly, I think that means that those things are consequences of WP:IAR.

I know from what you wrote in your debrief that you already understand those things, and intend to take them to heart in your admin work. That's good, and I wish you all the best! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

You confused me for a second; you forgot the # at the beginning of "#Hi there" and instead linked to our mainspace article Hi there. Who knew that "Hello" only dates to 1826?

What you said had the most impact on my RfA, no doubt about it. I definitely learned the most from your comments out of anyone at RfA, and I try to let learning experiences have the necessary impact on me. I am glad I won't have to return to RfA as a candidate, but I do wish something like WP:ADMINREVIEW still existed. RfA is the one and only real opportunity you have to get direct feedback from many people on your actions (positive and negative) not worth a dramaboard complaint. Anyhow. Thank you for your thoughts, and I wish you all the best, too! HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 22:01, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Day!

Happy First Edit Day! Hi Tryptofish! On behalf of the Birthday Committee, I'd like to wish you a very happy anniversary of the day you made your first edit and became a Wikipedian! The Herald (Benison) (talk) 04:21, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I probably say it every year but I find it so cheeky we made our first edit on the same day, albeit 12 years apart. Congrats on 16 years as a Wikipedian. --ARoseWolf 11:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, both of you (and congrats to you too, ARoseWolf). Is it 16 years? Feels like 26! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:44, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Email

I know you don't generally do email but if you drop me a line I have something you may find interesting. It's not related to anything currently ongoing on Misplaced Pages but also it's not something that can be communicated in public! Bon courage (talk) 14:03, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I really don't like to do that. It doesn't sound to me like this is very important, but if I'm wrong about that, please let me know. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:41, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Unrelated, but thanks for getting the page protection at TCM. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

It's interesting more than important: material from a whistleblower from what turns out to have been a coordinated effort on a topic we were both involved with years ago (we'd no doubt have suspected this at the time anyway). I'm just keeping it on file to send to Arbcom should it flare up again, rather than bother them with anything that doesn't need immediate attention. Bon courage (talk) 04:42, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Yeah, I have no doubt that there have been such wrongdoings from the kinds of POV-pushers we both encounter. As you say, just keep it on file for future submission to ArbCom if ever needed. That's the right way to handle it, and I don't need to know the details at this time. Thanks for letting me know. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:39, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Hydrocephalus, implications for consciousness

This old topic is getting some renewed attention on Reddit this week. Since this is your area of expertise (as a neuroscientist, not as someone with hydrocephalus) I would love to hear your thoughts. I think the writers of Westworld were aware of this case as they appear to have echoed the ideas of Axel Cleeremans in several episodes. And yes, The Simpsons anticipated this when Homer had his head imaged. Viriditas (talk) 10:17, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's certainly a remarkable example of functional adaptability. My area of expertise (and I got a good laugh out of what you said there) leads me to make a picky distinction between functionality in general and consciousness in particular. As I mentioned above, in #Gone fishin', researchers are trying to figure out if there's a sort of "minimum amount of brain tissue" that can be capable of being "conscious", and for now, there's no answer to that. But the example you cite demonstrates clearly that the minimum is going to be smaller than 10% of a human brain. The man in this example has some impairments, but still can live a largely normal life. It's well-established that the central nervous system makes a lot of use of redundancy – and obviously there are significant evolutionary advantages to this (one can potentially recover from various forms of brain injury, instead of it being inevitably fatal). There's also the quasi-scientific cliché that people only think with some small percentage of our brains. So that study demonstrates that a smallish percentage of the human brain can be sufficient to provide "normal function", with the remaining neurons adapting to take on some of the roles of the neurons that were lost. "Consciousness" would be some fraction of that "normal function", because the study subject clearly appears to be as conscious as anyone else, but the study doesn't let us determine what fraction that would be.

By the way, when I was in graduate school, one day we went to dissect the brain of a laboratory rat. The rat had been moving around it its cage and doing what looked like the normal behaviors a rat would display, nothing out of the ordinary. But when I opened up the skull, the cerebral cortex of that rat's brain was entirely missing. Just pretty much the brainstem. I was flabbergasted, enough that I remember it decades later, and I asked some more senior people in the lab to come over and check what had happened, whether I had made some sort of mistake. We decided that, in fact, this rat had been behaviorally normal, without a cerebral cortex. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Do you think you could have won the Nobel if you pursued that line of thinking that arose from seeing the rat without the normal anatomy? Viriditas (talk) 21:14, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

In a word, no. It was a rarity, but not that unique. But as for documenting it and publishing a short paper on it, maybe that was a missed opportunity. A problem would have been documenting the normal behavioral repertoire. There had been no reason to collect that data before the dissection, and after, well, it was too late. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I think I recall reading something about a researcher genetically engineering animals without full anatomical structures. That was a while ago so I don’t know what became of it. Viriditas (talk) 22:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I think what I'm also asking is what kind of implications does this have for AI development? One of the themes in the show Westworld is that our "code" for consciousness is very small and simplistic but we like to think of it as complex because of our hubris. While that is just fiction, it does point at some kind of paradigmatic bias in our overall approach to understanding ourselves. What if consciousness really is something incredibly simple and inconsequential, as this aforementioned medical case seems to imply? What then? I often get into discussions (outside of Misplaced Pages) where I compare animal and human intelligence, and I have to tell you, people get incredibly angry and upset when this comes up. There's this kind of idea that we are special, that we are unique, that we are better than other animals, and I get the sense that this idea pervades our culture at every level. I was just thinking about this yesterday, while I was walking around this artificial, urban environment that we've managed to create in spite of the natural environment, land that has been buried under concrete and paved over, while never giving a single thought to all the other species who live here or for their welfare. I think it's obvious that any attempt to create AI (if that is even possible and not some kind of fantasy to begin with) will end in the same way, with humanity being paved over by our own creation. Viriditas (talk) 20:34, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, when relating AI to biological brains, one of the things that I keep coming up against is that biological brains have to do what they do, using cells and biological constituents. There's no way (yet) to take a shortcut, and put some silicon transistors and some binary code into some part of the brain. A newly made human brain, as in a newborn baby, is a lot less computationally complete than a brain that is ten, or fifty, years older. And that would be a very inconvenient time course for someone constructing a computer that can do strong AI in time for the venture capitalists to be satisfied. I'm going to disagree with you about the case above demonstrating that consciousness is something simple that can be accomplished by something very small. Even with approx. 90% of his brain tissue gone, what remains is an incredibly large quantity of neurons and synapses. That's still an extremely complex biological system. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:53, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The AI proponents reject carbon chauvinism and argue that consciousness is probably substrate-independent and that sentience is just a matter of degree. I've often wondered if we learned to have the feeling of consciousness as we grew up and if these ideas of feeling consciousness are just ideas that could be implanted in non-biological systems. For example, most people go through their lives with thoughts, ideas, and beliefs in their heads that came from somewhere else, but at the end of the day, we like to pretend or call our own. Couldn't consciousness be a similar kind of idea? We think we are conscious, but isn't this just another story we learned from others that we tell ourselves? Viriditas (talk) 21:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

There's a ton of fascinating philosophical issues in there. I'm not arguing for carbon chauvinism, by the way. It's entirely possible that in silico can do some things better – and certainly doesn't need to spend as much time being trained. We use the word "consciousness" as though we know what it means, but we really don't. Is your brain conscious when you sleep, when you dream, when you daydream but aren't paying attention to something near you? Depends on how you define the word. One can program a machine to mimic any particular manifestation of consciousness, but if you ask it if it is conscious, can you trust its reply? I'm taking it on faith that you are conscious, because my past experience tells me it seems to make sense to assume that other people I interact with have the same consciousness I think I have, but I don't know it for a fact. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I’ve spent a lot of time playing around with chat bots and the like, as well as interacting with different kinds of animals. I think what I mean by consciousness is being able to go beyond our programming (cultural, innate, whatever) and to recognize ourselves as self-aware in relation to the larger world. I can ask my cat to try a bit of broccoli and give me their opinion, but it can’t do that for some reason. Which is odd, because it can do a hell of a lot of things that I can’t, like catch a bird flying in mid-air. So maybe consciousness is related to tasks, I don’t know. Viriditas (talk) 23:05, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

A lot of thought about this centers on awareness of self. I have a definite sense that I am a conscious self. But how does one ask someone else if they have the same sense, and if they reply yes, how does one verify that it's really the same? If a plant turns towards the light, that's a task, but it's unlikely to be conscious. If your cat eats the broccoli, you might be able to observe its body language and infer its opinion of the taste. Cats and other mammals appear to have a lot more consciousness than the phototropic plant does, but we keep coming back to the issue of how we choose to define the word. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:15, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I know. Maybe we just can’t escape the rigidity of primate consciousness. There’s a powerful scene in the film First Man where Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin are getting ready to land on the Moon in 1969. There’s a quick succession of frames showing their faces in almost chiaroscuro, framed and entangled by the darkness and sheer terror of space while the moonlight reflecting from the lunar surface lights up slivers of their faces, mostly just their eyes, giving the distinct appearance of ape-like faces, not human, peering out of a dark primeval forest, except this is the metallic compartment of the Lunar Module Eagle, not ancient Africa. This scene likely went unnoticed by most people but it really stuck with me, and it may have been a subtle homage to 2001 to boot. My point is that when we are truly faced with the unknown, we seem to revert back to our original programming, likely because we are unable to escape from it. Viriditas (talk) 23:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I should note, this is a major subplot in Westworld that is used to show how an AI system and human brain might be indistinguishable. In the story, the humans think they are special and unique and better than the AI, but the AI show that human thought processes are simple and rudimentary, while the AI surpass them by being able to network and upload their minds for saving and restoration in case something happens to their bodies. The humans think they are conscious and have free choice, but the AI explain how that’s basically an illusion of limited choices, feedback loops, and predictability. Viriditas (talk) 22:52, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Your remark at Arca

You cite this as a disenchanting experience, and it is implied older editors like myself are to blame. Several say the problem is that a group of editors (me, nableezy etc) bludgeon.

Well here is an analysis of just the talk page of that article, where you and Andrevan, sharing almost identical views argued your case

• Tryptofish edits 60
• Andrevan edits 59
• Nishidani 27
• Levivich 20

etc. The totally of edits by both of you exceeds the comments of several other partecipants.

Idon't think you were tagteaming, and since I think talk page discussions should run their natural course, tolerate longueurs but by the sloppy criteria being splashed all round that ARCA page, you are a tagteamer and bludgeon, a view and an interpretation I do not share. Nishidani (talk) 22:08, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

It looks like ArbCom is going to accept a full case, and you will have the opportunity to present your evidence there. I'm not interested in arguing about it here. My comments at ARCA were not about bludgeoning and tag teaming. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I have no intention of accepting an invitation to join what I consider a farce. I appreciate your indirectly citing my position correctly, that Jewish/Israeli/diaspora scholarship is the most reliable guide to the conflict. That is a position I have insisted on for a decade, hoping other editors absorb it. You mention WP:BRIE as if someone like myself believed in the truth of that scholarship and was muscling this in in a behaviourally aggressive manner (try to seed that suspicion to anyone who works as a lecturer in academe and has to interpret cutting edge scholarship so that his students can themselves master a subject). It is not a matter of belief. Scholarship doesn't give anyone the truth: it succeeds where it shows that less empirically grounded stories are shaky, and gives us a narrative that, provisorily, is superior in terms of explaining any historical question. It is simply a matter of writing articles according to the best available scholarship, even if one may entertain personal doubts about some of it. Why? Because it is infinitely more sober, objective and analytical, data-rich, than the newspaper memes and nationalistic fairy tales touted by what you identify as the other camp. And note, rampant sockpuppetry is almost the exclusive practice of that nationalistic camp. You have a scientific background. I would have expected you to have grasped that.Nishidani (talk) 23:09, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I can grasp that I said that I'm not interested in arguing about it here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:42, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Dear sir and/or madam

Are you interested in another Hopper DYK? Viriditas (talk) 23:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

OK. I'm guessing it's Rooms by the Sea. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:24, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Great! I’ll do a major expansion later tonight. You’re free to do whatever you want, of course. Viriditas (talk) 00:35, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Lots to do! The tension between Hopper and his critics is fascinating, with Hopper denying every attempt to describe him as an abstract artist or surrealist. I believe this is where the famous "You kill me" quote comes from, when a critic compared Mondrian with Hopper’s Rooms by the Sea. Also need to add he began it in Truro in September during a bout of artist’s block and finished in October. He famously described it as his "jumping off place". His wife was pretty critical of it! Viriditas (talk) 00:46, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

One hypothesis that I have is that Hopper was so opposed to the association because at the time, many of the people associated with abstract art and surrealism were communists or fellow travelers. Just an insight I have with no evidence, but it makes sense given Hopper was a conservative. Also, I’m ignoring abstract expressionism for obvious reasons. Viriditas (talk) 01:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

As a whimsical idea: DYK... that Edward Hopper sold some beachfront property to a New York art gallery? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:50, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Love it! You have a talent for this. Apologies for the delay, but there's so much information on this one painting, I'm experiencing a bit of information overload. I've spent the last few hours collating. Viriditas (talk) 22:03, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it's best if I start small, that always seems to help when I feel overwhelmed. I will focus on the provenance section for the next hour. Viriditas (talk) 22:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

No worries. I'm going to log out now, and I'll give it some attention tomorrow. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Just added the provenance section in toto. I've got a bit more time to start another section, so we will see what happens. I hope to have a third section added by tonight, and a fourth by tomorrow morning. Viriditas (talk) 23:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

If all goes according to plan, maybe we could submit the hook sometime Thursday? Viriditas (talk) 23:07, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Just added a background, description, and exhibition section. I'm signing out now, but I may return much later if I have the energy. Viriditas (talk) 02:34, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I've done what I could think of, and I think it looks good. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:44, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

The doctor is in, Charlie Brown! Viriditas (talk) 22:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Let me know if you have any other hooks. I will try to submit tomorrow morning. I think it's best to present multiple hooks, so if you can, please come up with a few others. Otherwise, I will just submit the one up above, and maybe one of my own if you don't have a few more. Viriditas (talk) 00:48, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Offhand, that's all I've got. If the reviewer doesn't like a given hook, it's always OK to add more options as needed. I'm going to leave the kewpy-que to you. (I'm always happy to be hired as a hooker!) --Tryptofish (talk) 20:19, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I will be taking you up on that for the next year. Viriditas (talk) 01:43, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

OK, I'm done copyediting. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:48, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

That's too bad, as I would encourage you to continue copyediting like you were. I just didn't like the image placement. Other than that, please keep going! I already have a stack of unused QPQs, so that's already done. Viriditas (talk) 22:23, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, that's not the way I meant it. I just meant literally, that there's nothing more I can think of. Like I'm done, and you don't have to wait for me to do anything more. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so if I submit the DYK right now, the first thing the reviewer is going to say is "where do I find it in the article"? There's two places that I see that could partially support it right now, but I'm not against making additional changes. Viriditas (talk) 22:28, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I will submit it now if you don't have other changes for the hook or the article. Or if you do, consider making them after the DYK, when it will give you additional opportunities for more hooks. Viriditas (talk) 22:29, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, feel free to go ahead; that's pretty much what I meant by my clumsy remark above. I see the same two places related to the hook, and they both make sense. But I don't have access to the full source material. My advice is to follow the hook by as many source citations as can support it, perhaps from both places on the page, and include in small font some quotes from the sources that support it (as I did here). The sources you cite will determine the "where" to find it. And if the source material isn't quite consistent with the hook I wrote, the language of the hook could be adjusted slightly. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:41, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't write hooks that way, I tend to follow WP:DYKHFC. So I will add your hook and see how it goes. Viriditas (talk) 22:47, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Done. Viriditas (talk) 23:04, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Rooms by the Sea: looks good! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:47, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: I just noticed that the source quotes at the DYK nom sound like quotes from the page, but they should be quotes from the sources. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I did that on purpose. Happy to reverse it. Viriditas (talk) 19:47, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Done. Viriditas (talk) 19:59, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the small expansion: "Hopper sent the finished painting to Frank Rehn". That's a safe assumption, but none of the sources give us that information. Viriditas (talk) 20:01, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I should note that such information might appear elsewhere, particularly in places I haven't yet looked. For example, there's a cited source that includes discussion of the original note written by Jo that I have not yet checked. It's very well possible that it says "the note was sent along with the painting that was delivered to Rehn". But we don't have that in the article yet, do we? Viriditas (talk) 20:31, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

One of them is called Edward Hopper: A Journal of His Work (1995) by Deborah Lyons. Seems very hard to get a hold of online. Viriditas (talk) 20:37, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Only available in brick and mortar libraries. Viriditas (talk) 20:39, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

You willing to make the trip to a library? Viriditas (talk) 20:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

About the quotes for DYK, that's much better, thanks. About the small expansion, I just tweaked it so as to not imply that the painting and the letter were sent simultaneously (although that may be gilding the lily). As for whether there's any OR in saying that Hopper sent the painting to Rehn, I really don't think so. We know from the sources that Rehn was the first holder of the painting after Hopper was finished with it. Either Hopper sent it (very likely), or Jo (or someone else) sent it on his behalf (possible, but effectively the same thing), or it traveled to Rehn magically. I honestly don't think it's an issue. About me going to a library, sorry, I just don't have time. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:59, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Given Hopper's Greenwich Village studio, it seems likely that he finished the painting in Truro and then delivered it to Rehn. It wouldn't make sense for Rehn to come and get it when the Hopper's go back to NY after their Truro summer vacation every year. However, I do have concerns about going beyond the sources, so I will continue to look for additional supporting material. Viriditas (talk) 21:09, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly about "sent" in "Hopper sent the finished painting". But I think that "sent" can encompass "delivered" or "handed to", in this context. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:15, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

But we still don't have the source for how the painting got from Truro to the New York dealer. I mean, I think it's obvious that Hopper delivered and drove it to Rehn himself (he didn't like it when Jo drove, and this was a major source of friction between them). But I also like to stick as closely to the sources as possible. Viriditas (talk) 21:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

At this point, I don't even think it matters. The hook is probably fine, I don't see anything wrong with it. Viriditas (talk) 21:45, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Like. I agree. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:56, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Don't get mad at me. Viriditas (talk) 22:41, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Ha! No problem. (Why you, why you..... !) --Tryptofish (talk) 00:09, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

(And I just learned from your talk page what a bandoneon is. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:32, 26 August 2024 (UTC))

Rest assured, you wrote a great hook. It’s unfortunate, but there are people who might not see that. It kind of reminds me of all the criticism about Don't Look Up from 2021, one of the greatest films of the pandemic era. At the time, conservatives and technologists on the right were apoplectic about the movie, and couldn’t figure out how anyone could like or appreciate it, seeing as they were directly pilloried by analogy. At one point, when the film was receiving accolades around the world, these people all bandied together to flood the Internet with bad reviews, claiming it was one of the worst films ever made. Sometimes people are just wrong and there’s nothing you can do about it. I just wanted you to know that I see you and recognize your brilliance. Viriditas (talk) 03:21, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

First of all, welcome back (belatedly) after your vacation. I was a little worried that EEng's edits had caused some friction, but I think the page ended up in very good shape.

That's incredibly kind of you to say those things (blush). And of course the page would not have existed at all without you. As for the hook, yeah, humor is a very iffy thing on Misplaced Pages. And I'm perfectly content with the ALT hook that got accepted. Whatever. Now if only someone would get around to promoting it to a prep and queue. I also agree with you about Don't Look Up, a film that I admired a lot. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:33, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

The next to last scene at the end, where they all settled their differences and held hands, waiting for the end of the world, touched me in a way that no other film has in recent years. It was such a beautiful film. Viriditas (talk) 21:47, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I have to admit that I liked where the tech bro got eaten! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:49, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Just deserts, quite literally. We can't build a single, sustainable contained biosphere on Earth, but Musk is all systems go on a Mars colony. It's insanity. Viriditas (talk) 21:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

It will end up being natural selection, I hope. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:53, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

This just showed up on my watchlist. Draw your own conclusions. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

And what's even crazier, Mark Rylance didn't win an award for his performance. That's upsetting to me. He made the whole film worthwhile and made me laugh so much. I demand an award for him! Viriditas (talk) 21:55, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

if only someone would get around to promoting it to a prep and queue

There are a few reasons why it hasn't been promoted, I think, but I would rather not muddy the waters with my unbridled speculation. It would help if you could leave a brief note at Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know asking for fresh eyes to take a look. I've seen this kind of thing happen before, so there may be a reason. Viriditas (talk) 22:10, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you about the process, but I'm not going to do anything right now (but I have no objection if you do). I'm going to the neuroscience meeting soon, so my time for things here is about to go down a lot for a while. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:13, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Have a good time! Viriditas (talk) 22:17, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

DYK just featured the following hook in the primary, top spot: "Did you know... that Punam Krishan (pictured) was raised on curry and Irn-Bru?" I completely fail to see how this is in any way different from your initial proposed hook. We all know Krishan wasn't raised on curry and Irn-Bru, just as we know Hopper didn't sell a beachfront property. Viriditas (talk) 01:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I've long since adjusted to Misplaced Pages being the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, including people who are humor-challenged, and worse. And I've had work of mine, in real life, that I cared about far more than this, get pissed on. So, I'm not bothered by how this came out. And I hope you aren't, either. Rooms by the Sea is a fine new article, that we can both take pride in. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:45, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I just became aware of this, and I want to make sure you are abreast of it. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:16, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the utterly preposterous link. I could milk the idea until it runs dry, but I would prefer to just latch on and wait for others to comment. I will not be cowed into participating. Viriditas (talk) 23:32, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I assume you meant udderly preposterous. Sorry if I'm acting like a boob. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Note the use of double Ts, not double Ds. What would your alma mater think? Viriditas (talk) 23:41, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Proposed decision in the Historical elections case posted

Hi Tryptofish, in the open Historical elections arbitration case, in which you offered a statement, a proposed decision has been posted. If you have comments on the proposed decision, they may be brought to the attention of the committee on the proposed decision talk page. SilverLocust 💬 14:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

RFA2024 update: Discussion-only period now open for review

Hi there! The trial of the RfA discussion-only period passed at WP:RFA2024 has concluded, and after open discussion, the RfC is now considering whether to retain, modify, or discontinue it. You are invited to participate at Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Discussion-only period. Cheers, and happy editing! MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:38, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Wiki-break

I'm going to be away from Misplaced Pages October 4–10 while attending the Society for Neuroscience meeting in Chicago. I'll respond to stuff here when I get back. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:20, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Looking forward to your return and any updates on the recent breakthrough which led to the mapping of the fruit fly connectome and how it can hopefully improve my life soon. :-) Viriditas (talk) 20:55, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Dear Trypto. I read about that poor fruit-fly, giving up it's brain for the good of humanity, and naturally I thought of you. Bless you. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:06, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey flyboys, I'm back. Seems like I've got a lot to get caught back up on, on my watchlist, but I'll post my yearly debrief when I get to it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Did they discuss anything related to the fringe (literally straight out of Walter Bishop's lab), emerging technology of REM dream control and two-way communication? New Scientist gave it lip service as future tech back in July. Viriditas (talk) 02:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

It's a huge meeting, so if anyone did, it wasn't in what I attended. I'll get around to posting what I found interesting, when I get around to it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:16, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, it's taken me long enough, but I've finally broken away from the firehose of blech coming over my watchlist, and I'm going to reply about what I learned at the meeting. Caveat: everything is preliminary reports of findings, frequently not yet even peer-reviewed, and so it's all entirely what WP calls primary sources, viewed through my personal opinions.

There were things that were of a specialized, technical nature, that were of interest to me personally, but if I focus here on things that would be of more general interest, one point that stood out was that there is increasing evidence that the idea that specific brain regions have specific functions is just not holding up at all. Stuff like one part of the brain is responsible for memory, another for pleasure, and another for fear. Those brain regions do, indeed, play roles in those things, but all of these complex functions actually involve multiple brain regions simultaneously interacting with one another, and a single brain region that is involved in one kind of function is also involved in many other kinds of functions. Another trend I noticed is that there are increasingly significant differences between how male and female brains (in humans and in other animals) process various kinds of inputs, with some specific brain circuits actually going in opposite ways. (To anticipate a possible question, I didn't see anything in that regard for non-binary humans.)

But I think the most memorable information that would be of general interest definitely was about "brain implants", along with implants in other parts of the nervous system, as a way of providing medical treatment. Things like electrical devices that can be implanted, usually surgically, in the body. This kind of thing has been going on for quite a few years, and I had been regarding it as still pretty early in the experimental process. But in the past year, scientists and doctors working on it have figured out a lot, from trial and error, about what does or does not work. And it's really starting to work. I saw results in individual people that were spectacular. A person who could not stand up on his own, and was needing to use a wheelchair, now able to go jogging down the sidewalk of a city street, and looking very athletic. Another person who had lost the ability to speak, and who could only communicate by moving his eyes, now talking out loud in a conversation and sounding entirely lucid. Patients saying that they had finally gotten their lives back. Loved ones saying that they had finally gotten their family member back.

And a new ethical issue has come up in that regard. These implants need a lot of maintenance. Repairing a microelectrode after a while, or even just changing a miniature battery. This can be very expensive, and there is a shortage of neurosurgeons who work in this specialty area. And (of course) medical insurance does not pay for it, because it's experimental. We are now facing the dilemma of patients who have been dramatically cured, but nobody will cover the expenses of maintaining the cure. So there are cases where the implant will just have to be removed, which is horrifying. One patient said that if you want to remove his implant, he is going to fight you over it. We are going to need a new way of paying for this, and we need it yesterday. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Could I order one of those snazzy Wik-implants. please? Jeff says he'll do free next day delivery. Please send the bill to Jimbo. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, you're one of those cases who just cannot be cured. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

But if you don't have a surgeon to open up your head yet, Dr. Fishy would be happy to do it! Now, where is my axe, anyway? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Discussion continues below. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

DYK for Rooms by the Sea

On 15 October 2024, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Rooms by the Sea, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that an art critic felt that Rooms by the Sea was one of Edward Hopper's "strangest" works? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Rooms by the Sea. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Rooms by the Sea), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 00:12, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi again

This is probably me making a stupid impulsive decision in the middle of the night, but I try very hard to not let bad experiences burn me, so here I go. Hopefully our conversation goes better than the last time I came here, especially now that you've apologized. I still have no idea what you saw in me, or what those coincidences were, but I figured I'd give you a glimpse into what I'm actually like. I gave a keynote at this year's WikiConference North America. A lot of people said it moved them, but I'm not sure I actually did that well. There's a lot of umms and you can practically feel my fear from the stage (or maybe that's just me projecting because my heart pounds even trying to watch it). But I got through it. It still feels surreal that I really did all that. Anyways, if you want to watch it, it's here. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 05:45, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi, and let me assure you right away that it's fine that you posted this here, and I appreciate it very much. Please know that you are always welcome on my talk page.

I watched and listened very carefully to your entire video. You did very well, by the way, and I think you are an effective and personable speaker. (We are all our own worst critics.) Although I previously had a superficial understanding of some of your life experiences, your talk did indeed fill in many more details. I'm genuinely sorry for the difficulties you had to deal with, especially when you were so young, and I'm glad that you are finding the strength to move on with your life, into a better set of circumstances. If Misplaced Pages helps with that, all the more to the good.

I'll tell you a few things about me (all of which I've posted here in the past, but I'll repeat it in one place now). I'm 68 years old. I was sexually abused as a child, by a teacher at my elementary school. I've had major depressive disorder for much of my adult life, and am getting good health care to deal with it.

That said, I'm sort of flattered that you appear to care so much what I think, but my sincere opinion is that you shouldn't care that much about it. Misplaced Pages can be a very random place, in that you never know who the other person is, who is about to cross paths with you in editing. Fortunately, there are plenty of fellow editors who are really wonderful people to interact with. But there can also be people whose opinions are really not worth spending any energy on. As I said, I'm glad that you are finding a positive community in editing here, but it's important to keep it in perspective. Don't care too much about any random thing that some anonymous user might say to you, or else it can really wear you down.

As far as I'm concerned, the rough patch that you and I had in the past is in the past, water under the bridge, any metaphor you want, to convey that it's over and done with. From now onward, I consider you to be a colleague, and you are always welcome on my talk. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:05, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I was hoping that we'd be able to put this past us, yes. But that doesn't just happen automatically, you know? That's why I wanted to reach out about this instead of just being angsty. To be quite frank, the talk I gave just scratches the surface of everything I've been through. I've learned to be very careful in how much detail I explain my childhood, because it tends to either lead to people pitying me and seeing me as a victim with no agency, or feeling like their problems aren't nearly as bad. Life isn't a competition. I'm sorry you went through what you went through, too.

I know you're concerned that I'm placing too much stock in what "random" people think, but it's a bit more complicated than that. You're not really a random person to me. I don't care about what random trolls say. Otherwise I'd be more troubled by all the revdelled nonsense (some it incredibly sexual in nature) LTAs say to me. The reason all this mattered to me so much is because I've always viewed you as my colleague, and I generally valued your perspective elsewhere. So it was a bit more personal to me in that way, I suppose. I just desperately wanted to prove that I could be trusted and it felt like there was nothing I could do that would be convincing enough. Sharing that photo was the first time I ever confirmed that information on-wiki, and showing who I was wasn't even enough. But I also know that sometimes people just don't like you and there's nothing you can ever do to change that. That's why I said I could move on, even if I didn't really want to. I generally try to err on the side of hope and that reasonable people will come around if something really unfair is happening. Because I've spent a lot of time dealing with people who won't come around no matter what you say.

I think I am slightly more sensitive to accusations of lying and somehow being inherently evil; others might be able to put that out of their head more easily. My father's abuse started when I was 5, around the time he was disfellowshipped. He hurt my Mom a lot too. Part of what made it hard to see that what happening wasn't normal is that my Dad was a "mentally diseased apostate". I thought that it wasn't really my Dad that was doing these things (he was just being influenced by Satan) and that if I could just convince him to come back to Jehovah, the abuse would stop. We'd be a family and everything would be okay. Then my living situation changed, as I said in my talk. So when I lost my faith and the support system that came with that, the only person who really understood what that was like was someone I could never confide in. I was worried I was destined to become some sort of evil monster like my father. Afterall, I was his child.

My point is that you never really know what someone on the other side of the screen has been through and I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt if they've never done anything wrong. I don't think it's a good idea for the community to be so paranoid about socks that baseless accusations happen. LTAs do some real harm to people and accusing people of being one should not be taken lightly. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:22, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, it's kind of you to respect me enough to care what I thought. If you want, I can go into more detail about my thinking about the photo, but I'd prefer not to. I have said clearly and publicly that I came to realize that I was wrong, and you should always feel free to link to the diff where I said that. There may be a limit to what I am qualified to do, in terms of explaining why that past interaction with me should not be triggering for you. I hope there is someone off-wiki, in real life, who can talk with you about this. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:31, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I do realize you have apologized since. I'm just trying to be open about why I cared about it. It's not triggering for me to simply have a conversation about this, I've been through a lot and this is nothing. Our previous interaction definitely hurt but it wasn't the end of the world either. I'm not asking you to be my counselor or anything.

I just try very hard to make sure that our community is a place where everyone feels welcome, you know? I'm not the only one out there that has falsely been accused of being a sock and not the only one that felt some sense of rejection from the community because of that. I'm not placing all the blame on you here, I'm using this as an example that hopefully everyone can learn from? At least that's what I was trying to do. I don't think approaching people with inherent suscipion because they look like some other person on the planet or aren't making a ton of mistakes is what a non-toxic community does. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:46, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

In context, when you say "I'm not placing all the blame on you", it sounds like you are placing some of the blame on me. I'm going to push back on that. I'm not someone who makes careless accusations. In fact, I didn't make anything like an accusation, just a vague "neutral" comment, until you pushed me to say more about it. I wasn't "approaching" you with "inherent suspicion". At the time, there were very substantial reasons for my concerns, nothing careless about it – but also nothing that was your fault. I'm all in favor of doing more to making the community more welcoming, and I have a long track record of working towards that. In fact, you might want to look back and my entry on your editor reflections page, in that regard. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:56, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I happen to disagree with your conclusion here. People can care about making the community more welcoming while also acting in ways that don't always reflect that intention. To me, your accusations definitely seemed careless, and I doubt that others wouldn't also see it that way. I hope you reconsider what I've said. All I can hope for is that you get the point of what I'm saying one day. I've tried my best. I should probably move on from this conversation, because I doubt I'm going to change your mind here, and I've already invested too much time on this. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:06, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I said I didn't want to go into details about my earlier thinking, but your insistence on calling me "careless" has made me feel that I need to do so. A long time ago, I happened to notice a comment you posted that sounded, oddly, like something that someone else might also have said. I'm not going to explain, because WP:BEANS applies to that someone else, who may still be out there. The fact that it sounded that way could, of course, just be a coincidence. And in fact, it eventually turned out that it was just a coincidence. Did I do anything to you, as a consequence of that, that could reasonably be construed as hurtful? No. I commented neutral in your RfA, and did so in a bland way. At the time, your response was this: . I figured that was that. Later on, you came back to my talk, in the discussion you link to above. Let me reconstruct exactly what I thought:

1. Oh, that's disappointing. I thought we had settled that, but it sounds like she is still concerned about it. Let's see what this is about.
2. Good! She's posted a photo. I'm going to look at it and see it isn't the same person, and that will put it to rest. That's good.
3. Oh shit! I can't believe what I'm seeing in that photo.

All that went through my mind more rapidly than the time it takes to read that. What I did next, was to pull up the photo you posted, in a separate browser tab where I could enlarge it. And in a second tab, I enlarged a photo of the person I suspect of being the disruptive user (obviously also a youngish woman). I then carefully compared them, side-by-side and feature-by-feature.

Again, this turns out to have been a horrendous coincidence. But the similarities were remarkable, nothing careless about it. I carefully compared every feature I could find (other than changeable things like hairstyle or clothing), and each thing matched up, detail by detail. It was spooky. I tried to find subtle differences, really tried, really wanted to find some, but nothing stood out. I hadn't been particularly convinced that my suspicions were justified, but now I was really wondering if a very nasty person was playing games with me. I had to decide: should I just say OK and don't worry about it, or should I indicate that I had reasons to be concerned? Obviously, I chose the latter. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't, because that would have saved both of us a lot of hassle. But I said what I said, even then acknowledging that I wasn't sure whether it was just a coincidence. I didn't post about it anywhere else, just here on my talk page. Now I know that some of my talk page regulars posted some jokey things about it, in that same section, and I know that that hurt your feelings, which I am sorry about. But you also lashed out at me, at places like WT:RFA, in the months that followed, and I feel that I didn't deserve that.

The day that you won that Wikimedian recognition, I looked at the video, and immediately saw things that proved, conclusively, to me that this had all been a horrible coincidence. I'm not going to say what, because of BEANS. But I immediately went to your talk page to try to make things right.

I know that this has been bad for you, and I'm very sincerely sorry that it has. I wish I had not gone into those details in my earlier talk page comments, and just let it all pass. But I did not do that out of malice towards you, and it wasn't careless.

Something I'm trying to get across to you is that, on Misplaced Pages, you sometimes, often times, just have to let things go. When I was a new editor, I had this said to me by someone very experienced and respected: , which also led to: . This is the internet, and stuff like that happens. The person who said that second thing later became someone I got along with very well, and I doubt that he remembers what he earlier said about me. And I haven't forgotten what it was like to be a new editor. Indeed, my concern about that person whom I mistakenly confused with you grows out of my concerns over unfair things done to other editors.

I get it, that your life experiences made you especially vulnerable to feeling hurt by what I had said. And again, I'm very, very, sorry that I said it. But I wasn't being careless. Stuff like this happens online, and one should not blow it out of proportion. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

There's also no proof that whoever you think I look like is a sock, as you've said yourself: For reasons that I cannot post, I have a hunch that I know who the sockmaster is, and what they look like. I still believe it is careless to make these accusations because I wrote something once that apparently sounded like something this sock would say. I think that's what happens when people get so paranoid about socks that they don't listen to what this sounds like to literally anyone else. You really are missing the point of what I'm trying to convince you of here.

I don't think anything I've ever said to push back against this logic is "lashing out". I'm not content to simply sit back and let people say awful things about me anymore. You have a right to think whatever you like about me and I have a right to respond to that rhetoric when it publicly involves me. I think I've been beyond reasonable about it, all things considered. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:05, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not missing the point. I haven't gone looking for any of this. If you initiate a discussion, understand that you cannot dictate how someone will respond to you. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:16, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm well aware I can't control how you respond. I'm saying that it's clear you don't understand the point I'm trying to make. I encourage you to ask other people which position is the more reasonable one. I have a hunch no one would side with you. Feel free to prove me wrong. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:22, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

No one would side with me? That's cold. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:25, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be. I'm just trying to get you consider that if you're the only person who thinks something is reasonable and everyone else is saying it isn't, maybe you should consider if you're the one in the wrong. Like WP:1AM but as a general approach to life instead of just a content dispute. Talk to other people. See what they think. We're obviously at a standstill here and I doubt anything I can say here will come across. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:30, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

And now I'm the only person who thinks it's reasonable. Everyone else says I'm wrong. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:34, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

When I referred to WT:RFA, I was remembering a discussion about why people are reluctant to run, where I said this: . I'm confident that what I said was reasonable and relevant. And it also had absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing here. But your response, , made it into something about you, and not about what I had actually said. That's what I was talking about. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:40, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree that it had nothing to do with what was being discussed. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:44, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

This is something I cared about for a long while, even before I ran myself. See Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for adminship/Archive 263#Accusing someone of being a sock in an RfA?. People see toxicity like that and get scared of the process. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:46, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I understand that. But my comment, in that diff, was about something else entirely. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

The general discussion was about why people don't run for RfA. I've had many discussions with people, both online and off (especially now that I've been a nominator), about why exactly they don't run, and I thought my comment there was very relevant to the general idea. While some people are concerned that certain things they've done will be taken out of context (like you expressed), others aren't concerned about that at all (they can own up to their mistakes and getting opposes on that basis isn't what prevents from from RfA), they're more worried about people finding reasons to reject them that are completely out of their control (like sockpuppetry accusations). RfA can be a rather arbitrary toxic process sometimes. If I could back in time, I'd link to what I did in the above comment because it would've made things in that specific discussion less personal, especially as I was replying to you directly at that time. But people really are scared about these things happening at RfA and I wanted everyone who cares about why people choose not to run to consider that. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:01, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Look, I'm also following the discussion about me, between you and Viriditas, on your talk page. Let me attempt to close with this: I want to go back to what I said near the start of this discussion, before it took a turn for the worse. You are welcome at my talk page. You and I are not enemies. I've apologized for when I was wrong, and I've set the record straight. I don't want to keep ruminating on something that belongs in the past. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:05, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like we came to a similar conclusion at the same time. I meant what I said at my talk page too. I don't think something entirely belongs in the past when it's an aspect of our community that shows up from time to time and continues to hurt innocent people, but Rome isn't built in a day and you can always come to me if you ever feel like reopening this specific discussion. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:10, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I appreciate that. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:14, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I promise this will be the last thing I ever say on this unless you ever choose to engage with me on this topic again, but for what it's worth, I am sorry for the "no one would side with you" comment. I really didn't mean it to come across that way but to some extent, my intentions don't really matter there. That's a phrase that can have some pretty awful connotations for people (especially if they've been through trauma like we have) and I should have considered that. I should've been more careful. I'm sorry. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 03:34, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate that very much. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:09, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

You probably don't remember me...

...but basically, when I was a young teenager, I made an account on Misplaced Pages, and tried to fix some stuff. You helped me do it, and you were really warm and welcoming and you made me feel appreciated. I abandoned the account because I was a silly kid with the attention span humans stereotypically assign to goldfish(in complete ignorance of their intelligence, btw), and when I wanted to come back in 2018, I had to create a new account once I realised I had inadvertently revealed personal information that I don't want connected back to me. (Internet privacy was very overrated in my younger mind). But the way you welcomed me, and the way you walked me through edits/did the edits yourself, has always stuck with me. So thank you. From the bottom of my heart, thank you. I've wanted to say this to you for a long time, and the past week has been making me think a lot about it. And again, there's no way you'll remember who I am - our original exchange all those years ago probably didn't even take more than a few minutes out of your day - but thank you. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 21:44, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very, very much for that. (On a day when I've been feeling pretty shitty about the world, both onsite and in the real world, especially with anxieties about the US election, I really needed that!) I certainly don't know what account was your previous account, but I'm happy to have been able to help. I'm inferring that the ongoing ANI thread was the immediate reason for you posting this, and I, in turn, appreciate the comment you made following mine. I've been seeing you around (in your current account), and I've been noticing that you do good work and have good judgment (or at least judgment I agree with!). Anyway, thanks again for that, and happy editing! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:52, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh yeah?

Regarding this, I always assumed you were small and dry, like an anchovy. But if it will prevent me from EVER AGAIN trying to help an editor avoid sanctions, even if they are well deserved, please throw yourself onto a pizza before delivery. Good eatin'! But as I pondered on Doug's Talk page, what the f was I thinking? JoJo Anthrax (talk) 05:08, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Small and dry? I've been called a lot of things, but I don't remember being called either of those two before. Maybe just salty. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:51, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

But have you ever been called late for dinner? Or DOCTOR Late For Dinner? JoJo Anthrax (talk) 23:10, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Doctor Who? What's for dinner? Pizza? Fish? Anchovy pizza? A Petri dish of anthrax? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Guess who's coming to dinner.... Sidney Poisson? No, it's Trypt-overdose! yay!! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Yet more rampant Trypophobia! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:19, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah, suck it up, scaley features! Shove that in your Hebridean pipe and smoke it! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot smoke a fish, or is it tuna fish? I can't even remember if I've been called scaley before... Small, dry, and scaley. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Don't worry Trypto, at least you're not frozen. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

--Tryptofish (talk) 21:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

just some food for thought

When I first opened the thread about LB's trolling userpage edits, you were one of the first to respond and seemed to me to be acting as an uninvolved admin (which I now see is on me and not you, to my embarassment). You didn't make it at all clear to me or anyone else that you have a very cozy relationship with them.

Despite accusations to the contrary, I have never closeley followed LBs actions or watched his talk page outside of when I was actively engaging there, and so I was completely unaware of this. It created an impresssion that you were acting as an admin, as opposed to a friend of the accused person.

I'm not making an accusation or saying you did anything abusive, I'm just saying it would've been nice to know, and that probably most particpants in the thread were as unaware of it as I was. Just Step Sideways 01:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Tryptofish isn't an admin, uninvolved or otherwise, JSS. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:20, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

well shit. For whatever reason I sure thought he was but didn't take five seconds to check. Just Step Sideways 02:02, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Cozy? I don’t get that at all. My impression is that Tryptofish, who is unusually sensitive and perceptive to the nuances of human speech in written form, was treating LB as a person, with the kind of respect, compassion, empathy, and good faith required for effective communication. It’s wild how people can read so much stuff into it that doesn’t exist. Viriditas (talk) 01:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, my whole comment was based on the idea that he was admin, which he isn't and as far as I can tell never has been or even run at RFA, so that's 100% on me. I didn't sleep well last night and probably need to switch off for a while if I'm making mistakes that basic. Just Step Sideways 02:06, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Lack of sleep does alter perception in a big way, so I can sympathize with your predicament. The only reason I responded was because I've often been impressed with Tryptofish’s active listening skills (albeit in written form) to the point where it’s forced me to come to terms with my own deficiencies in this area. Viriditas (talk) 02:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

It took me a few minutes, after logging in today, to be sure whether or not I had figured out what was going on here. Just to be clear, my only significant extra permission is rollback (and I think I also have that thing where I get notified about pending changes, but I only rarely use it and it mostly annoys me). I'm not an admin, and (although lots of people have asked me) I've never agreed to have an RfA. So nothing I did regarding Lightburst was WP:INVOLVED from the admin perspective. As other editors have kindly pointed out here, I was just acting editor-to-editor, according to what I believe to be the right thing to do.

Beebs, please don't worry about having a bad night and mistaking my status. It's no big deal, and believe me, we all have days like that. And with all the shit happening in the real world, I think everyone, including me, is on edge. I also realize that you genuinely felt insulted by a lot of the things that have been coming in your direction in recent weeks, and I'm sincerely sorry that it's weighing on you. Please don't let it get you down.

And thanks, FFF and Viriditas. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The really dumb part is that I use a script that shows me such things whenever I look at user or user talk pages, so like right now at the top of this very page I can see "An extended confirmed user, pending changes reviewer, and rollbacker, 16 years 2 months old, with 68,981 edits. Last edited 3 hours ago". (it's actually really handy, but only if you actually look at it) I was obviously way off my game yesterday. Just Step Sideways 02:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

No worries! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I know we often don't see eye to eye

But I wanted to stop by to say that I really appreciate your respect for consensus around the recall issue. That's model behavior, and I just wanted to let you know that I see and appreciate it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:33, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, SFR! I hope that, now that Clovermoss and I have patched things up, you and I can be on a better footing. Aside from the things where we've disagreed, I actually think that you have been doing excellent work as an administrator. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that, it's nice know that at least someone thinks I'm not botching it. No hard feelings on my end, and I'm glad to put that behind us. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:21, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

RFA

Please keep the back and forth of a personal nature to user talk pages. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

If anyone cares, this is about this: . I see that you made an identical post on the talk page of the other editor, which I appreciate. As I see it, your role as the admin moderator in this RfA is to see to the community consensus that personal attacks should not take place on RfA pages. So for me, this brings up the question of whether you have allowed a personal attack, directed against me, to remain on the RfA page, and from my perspective, you did. I posted a polite and, I think, thoughtful neutral comment, with links to what I was specifically concerned about. The other editor simply said "Support, per Tryptofish". That's the kind of snarky posting that belongs on social media, but not on Misplaced Pages, and that might, perhaps, be an appropriate rationale for someone rejecting a bogus oppose from a troll or an idiot. I am neither a troll nor an idiot. And civility is expected not only of those who oppose (or who, for goodness sake, are neutral), but also for those who support. You have left the toxicity on the RfA page, and that's on you. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

The threshold for removing or striking a vote is higher than removing other comments. While I see the snark, it's also possible to read it as "I agree with this analysis, but find myself supporting." I've had another discussion based on something that was brought up to me about the RFA, and what I said there holds in this case. There is a rationale, and although it's not how I would have worded it I don't see it as passing the line. Reasonable people can disagree on where the line is, and any time there is one person judging the civility in a discussion involving hundreds there is bound to be disagreement on that line. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:12, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

You can read it as "I agree with this analysis" as in, the analysis that I had written? That's ridiculous, in this case. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:14, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, like the support that says I immensely respect Tryptofish and find myself agreeing with the content of their neutral. Obviously that much better communicates agreeing with your analysis and deciding that it warrants support. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:19, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Those are two different support comments, the other of which, of course, is fine. The one that I am discussing with you here is not possibly that. And you should know that, because when you reverted me, you also reverted the other editor making it very clear that they disagree with me: . --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I think this has less to do with you, and more to do with the recent attempts to reign in the free for all comments on RFA. I totally get what you are saying Tryptofish, but I think in this specific instance, SFR did the right thing, and honestly, I don't see it having anything to do with you on a personal level, so I would just let this go. Viriditas (talk) 22:05, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate that, I really do. I don't think that SFR did this out of anything personal about me, but I think the editor who made that comment about me did one of two things: either making it personal about me, or being so insensitive as to not realize that it came across as personal about me. I see a bias in the effort "to reign in the free for all comments on RFA." Comments challenging (badgering) opposes (or, in my case, a mere neutral) get way more leeway than those challenging supports. As for letting it go, I'm saying what I think here, but I'm not reverting anyone on the RfA page, and it's not like I'm going to make a crusade out of it or anything. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I totally get it, and I think the editor did do what you say they did, but they only mentioned your name, and I think that kind of snark is allowed, however unfortunate. Viriditas (talk) 22:49, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your understanding, and for your concern about how I feel. The way that I see it, the community has a policy about civility and a policy about no personal attacks, as well as a recent consensus that these policies should be enforced especially seriously on RfA pages. Although the editor has now stricken their comment and replaced it with something different (though, frankly, boilerplate), a snarky mention of my name meant, in this case, mocking my neutral comment, and policy does not make a carve out for that. And practice should not make a carve out for that, either. In this case, the target was me (and I have the same privileges under policies that any other editor in good standing has), but there are other editors who are more easily hurt by this kind of thing than I am. It's important to me to take a stand on behalf of editors in such a position, and I try to do that. The burden should not be on the victim, to just suck it up and move on. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm looking at the responses to the oppose too, and stewing pretty hard. It's a difficult position, since I'm a single person trying to use my judgement to act on what the community consensus on what is acceptable. We're all aware that any consensus about what exactly is actionable incivility is pretty shakey, and varies widely based on who shows up to talk about it, and who's actions are being discussed. I'm sorry that I'm not taking the actions you'd like to see, and I mean that with no snark. Just know that I'm trying to moderate the discussion in line with my understanding of what most editors would think is acceptable or unacceptable, and applying that evenly. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:52, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for saying that. And I sympathize with how difficult this is to monitor, and empathize with your stewing. (Root vegetables taste good in stews, however. ) Anyway, I'm not angry and I'm not upset. I respect your decision, and I'm not holding any grudge over it. Best wishes, --Tryptofish (talk) 22:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Wishing you a Happy Wednesday

Viriditas: how apt a message!

I've had a feeling this was coming, for a few weeks, so I've already gone through the various stages of grief, and I'm actually now at peace with the whole thing. I've become determined to fight back (off Misplaced Pages), and this morning I even bought a tire thumper. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

PS: Someone dressed as an orangutan would be even better! --Tryptofish (talk) 17:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I chose Zira for a reason. Viriditas (talk) 00:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I also find it interesting that the personal values of Kim Hunter aligned with the role of Zira. Hunter was a progressive democrat, and Zira was a liberal scientist at odds with her superiors. Viriditas (talk) 00:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

That one went way over my poor little head. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Just out-numbered, it seems? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:46, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I've been reading the post-election autopsy articles and paying attention to various discussions on social media. This part of the analysis is the most interesting and will be talked about for years. Viriditas (talk) 22:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

One of the most interesting takeaways is the significant rise of Generation Z and Latinos who turned to Trump. I predicted this a while ago, but I wasn’t alone, and it’s been discussed for a long time now. I think history will demonstrate that this will be one of the greatest self-owns ever, with both cohorts voting against their interests. Viriditas (talk) 01:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

There's so much that I could say here, but I wanna keep it brief. I think it's true that many of the voters who supported him will come to regret their choice when events, especially economic ones, unfold. At the same time, I think that people like me need to accept facts, including the fact that we just got bitch-slapped. Working people in the US are increasingly post-racial (which, in the long run, will be a good thing). They are very clearly angry at being, as they see it, condescended to. Even if they don't understand that the President doesn't raise prices at the supermarket (sigh), they don't want to be talked down to. They feel hurt, like they can no longer expect better lives than the lives their parents had. They have valid reasons for feeling that, and everyone owes them the respect that they have those valid reasons.

As I went through the various stages of grief (I'm better now), one of the things I came to embrace is the idea that I should not feel bad about things that are beyond what I can control. I can control my own actions, and I'm good with what I, myself, did before and in the election. And I'm starting to get clarity about what I'm going to do in the future, and resistance is a big part of it. I don't exactly know what Trump will actually do, because he's unpredictable, but I expect that it will look very, very bad once it starts happening. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

You're worried about lil ol' Scarecrow Donald? Just "Let That Sink In" shall we? (And I don't think he's there just to do the dishes). Still, at least the cows and the buildings with windows can now breath easy. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC) p.s. and never underestimate the mid-Western squirrel lobby...

You folks over there better start practicing your Russian. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah, yes. Thanks for reminding us. More tea vicar? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I find another kind of tea helps me deal with it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I expect Elon thinks he already owns the joint. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:32, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I thought that was Kim Hunter in an ape mask. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the working class, that's true. One of the reasons Clinton lost in 2016 and Harris lost in 2024 is because Democrats try to move right and appeal to Republicans during a campaign, which hurts their own base and never brings Republicans on the fence into their camp. I knew it was over back in September when Harris started talking about how fracking wasn't so bad. I also heard next to nothing how Harris was going to directly address greedflation and the prices which are driving people to desperation, from rent to food prices to insurance doubling overnight. These are real issues, and Harris barely raised them. Same mistake, every time. Lucy, Charlie Brown, football. Liberals and young people aren't going to show up if Harris is taking GOP talking points as her own. The DNC needs to learn from their mistakes. As for gen Z and Latinos, they fucked around, and now they are about to find out. I still remember the Latinos for Trump guy who was all over the news in 2017. Trump deported his family after he voted for him in 2016. Viriditas (talk) 23:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

This is something where we could potentially get into a lengthy argument, but I really don't want to do that. I don't see the problem as having moved to the right, instead of moving to the left. I see it as a problem as moving inconclusively, instead of taking a firm position and sticking to it. I've long believed that Bernie Sanders could have beaten Trump in 2016, and we'd all be so better off now if he had. That doesn't mean that the electorate aligns with Democratic Socialism, and it also doesn't mean that the electorate aligns with MAGA. The electorate aligns with whoever seems most confident and strong, regardless of ideology. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

There’s no argument; in the US we have socialism for the rich and capitalism for everyone else. Virtually all of the major donors and billionaires behind Trump are the beneficiaries of government aid, subsidies, and contracts. This close relationship between corporations and government is also one of the definitions of fascism. The push to eliminate the department of education has nothing to do with improving education. It’s all about stuffing the pockets of donors who will benefit from private and charter schools, which will provide less services for increased costs. This is the game. As for Harris moving to the right, this is pretty much substantiated. She reversed her 2019 promise to ban fracking a few months ago, with even the director of Yale’s climate change communication program saying Harris' position was 15 years out of date. I’ve addressed this before. Almost nothing has changed or progressed in the US in 30 years. We are not going forward, we are going backwards. Viriditas (talk) 23:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Update: 53% of white women voted for Trump. I wonder just how many more women have to die from miscarriages in red states before that changes. 1000? 10,000? I blame religion, but I'm not supposed to say that. Viriditas (talk) 09:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I've decided, for the sake of my mental health, that I'm done discussing this, except when it might relate specifically to editing on Misplaced Pages. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Just wanted to confirm. Viriditas (talk) 21:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That's OK. I think I said that too harshly, sorry, but I figure you understand what I mean. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Understood. But all I have to do is couch any further questions in the context of neuroeconomics, and we're all good, right? :-) Viriditas (talk) 22:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Ha! That reminds me of the neuroscience debrief that I posted above, some time ago. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Where's the new one? Viriditas (talk) 22:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

#Wiki-break. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

First I'm seeing of it. Reading it now. Viriditas (talk) 22:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah, that was a nice read. You should write more on Misplaced Pages. One thing you wrote that piqued my interest: why is there a high cost and level of expertise needed to maintain the brain implants? It sounds like an engineering issue that didn't account for the design? Viriditas (talk) 22:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. About writing more content, I agree. Again, my mental health – and the firehose of blech every time I open my watchlist.

The expense comes from at least two things. One is the incredibly exacting neurosurgery that it takes to remove and replace an implant in an extremely precise position in the brain, with no room for error. It takes a large operating room staff and recovery staff with very specialized expertise. The second thing is what it takes to manufacture, again with no room for error, what may be a near-to one-of-a-kind piece of near-microscopic machinery. Often, this is a matter of giving small electrical impulses at very precise times to just one or just a few neurons, and not to anything else, and then measuring what happens in order to compute and precisely time the next impulse. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I understand. Given the popularity of non-invasive brain stimulation devices, do you think this might work in the near future, and solve this problem? Viriditas (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps eventually, I'm not sure. The idea of "sculpting" the electrical field so that it targets somewhere at a distance is an interesting one. The question will become how precise the focus can be made. Although it would make the surgery simpler, it would still require a lot of the other things, including a very demanding process of tuning it to the exact target. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:11, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. Oh, to backup a bit and address what you said about the stress from watchlists, I solved that by eliminating many of the problematic articles on my own list. It helps! Viriditas (talk) 00:53, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks again. For me, articles aren't the problem. It mostly comes from user talk of people I care about and really don't want to ignore. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:56, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Anguish. Had never seen your User page image before. How utterly poignant and chilling. Bleak in the extreme. Quite shocking, in fact. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:44, 9 November 2024 (UTC) p.s. End of season sale: One slightly confused has-been Party clown - offers invited (could possibly trade for orange "dishonest, xenophobic, narcissistic, neo-Nazi-sympathising sociopath")

Thanks, Martin. I spent some time tracking down an image that I felt would work, and that was it. Perhaps the interior of my mind is a terrible place to look, but that's what it is. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:07, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

It chills one to the bone. Sheer horror. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

And I call this one "Surprise indefinite block and facing AN/I". Martinevans123 (talk) 14:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Or, "Anticipating the Trump inauguration". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

This is very, very important.

If you care at all about the safety of Misplaced Pages editors: Misplaced Pages:2024 open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation. (If you live in the US, just consider if Trump decides he doesn't like what our articles say.) --Tryptofish (talk) 21:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Music

story · music · places

Thank you! - For a surprise, a Bach cantata is on the Main page today, where it was last year for the 300th anniversary, and they were too lazy to find something new ;) - Look at my story, and listen to the 3 whole-tone steps and the dialogues of Fear and Hope. - I tell others at this point that there's an open letter open to be signed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Madeleine Riffaud - remember. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Odile Bailleux on the Main page. - I uploaded pics of a trip that was a 10-day celebration of a 16 November event, but the day was also when a dear friend died. We sang Hevenu shalom aleichem at his funeral yesterday, and it was good. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:50, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Trump presidency concerns

Hey, wanted to write to you here rather than taking up more space on the open letter talk page. Have you considered bringing up your concerns about how the Trump presidency might affect Misplaced Pages at the village pump? That might be a better place for it than a talk page about a separate issue. --Grnrchst (talk) 22:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Valjean: Pinging you too, as you opened the initial thread. --Grnrchst (talk) 22:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that question. For now, I feel like the immediate issue is the open letter, affecting editors from India. And if the WMF does the right thing there, then we have a good start for when the problem moves to the US. And if the WMF drops the ball, then that's when I'd be more inclined to act. When I think of how AmPol has become a CTOP, and about all the back-and-forth that happens every time Fox News or its kin get discussed at RSN, I figure just bringing up a new VP discussion will merely turn into a quagmire. So I'm going to watch and wait for now. But yeah, this will become a substantive issue sooner or later. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

It just occurred to me to indicate that what we are talking about is this edit I made: . --Tryptofish (talk) 00:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

It's starting to happen

This is very serious for everyone who edits Misplaced Pages: Heritage Foundation plans to "identify and target" Misplaced Pages editors.

Discussion at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors and Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#The Heritage Foundation.

We need to take this very seriously. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. The HF is launching an attack on this project, and the incoming administration is very likely to support them enthusiastically. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

For whatever it might be worth, here are some of my (rather dark) thoughts: . --Tryptofish (talk) 18:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Those are smart thoughts, and I hope people read and heed them. These people aren't Saturday-morning cartoon villains. They're smart and competent, and we need to keep a clear head. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

One disastrous election is enough.

User:Tryptofish/ACE2024. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:21, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for posting your guide, Tryp; I always look forward to it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 23:28, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

--Tryptofish (talk) 23:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

ACE2024

Hi. Thank you for your voter guide. The descriptions are very accurate. However: Error querying Pageviews API - Not Found, Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I had just duplicated the pageviews thing from last year, so I guess it's obsolete. I deleted it. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:20, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Also, glad to see you around. (It also occurred to me that the pageviews might need 24 hours before working.) --Tryptofish (talk) 16:55, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

It works now. It just needs 24 hours for the software to do its thing. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not staging as comeback or anything, but stuff that concerns WP admins and Arbcom still interests me, particularly the chaotic discussions about RECALL. I wonder if they will ever get it right instead of just stumbling around and makinbg it far more complex than it needs to be - or just end up scraping the whole thing for want of knowing how to organise the discussions. Only about 4 people seem to know what's going on. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm very dissatisfied about the recall process, and about how it came to be enacted, but I also had it pointed out to me yesterday that I've started letting my frustration show in abrasive ways, so I'm going to start dialing it down. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:32, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

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Probiotics and lucid dreaming

I only just randomly discovered this and had no idea it was a thing. It turns out other people have doing it for a while and I'm very late to the party. I've never taken it before bed, so last night I decided to give it a go. Normally I take it during the day and I haven't experienced any enhanced dreams. This time I took a cold-pressed juice shot two hours before bed. The label claims that it has one billion colony forming units of Bacillus coagulans. I also had a focaccia veggie sandwich with those Italian herbs and spices baked into the bread, which are also infamous as alleged dream enhancers (talk to anyone who has ever eaten Italian food before bed and they will tell you all sorts of stories). I forgot to also mention, I consumed two large cups of hot green tea (Camellia sinensis). So there I am waiting for the rocket ship to blast off. I go to sleep and wake up early, check the news, and then do the standard WBTB. I'm now in a dream where someone has dented my car and I'm upset about the body work I need to get done. What's funny is that in the back of mind, there's another sense of "me", that knows this is a just a dream and my car isn't really damaged. What's unusual, however, is that "me" doesn't have much of a voice and is being suppressed by the dream "me" in a big way. So, when I wake up from the actual dream, I'm convinced my car was damaged and start making preparations to call a body shop. About three minutes after waking up, that dream "me" disappears, and the primary "me" reappears and I realize my car is just fine. The closest feeling I can compare it to is when you lose your keys or wallet, only to discover that they are sitting right in front of you where you always leave them and you breathe a sigh of relief. Well, enough of this nonsense and down to the brass tacks. Probiotics and lucid dreaming? This is the first I'm hearing of it. How would this work if it does? Gut–brain axis, enteric nervous system? Give me the lowdown. In the past, I've experimented with liquid omega-3-6-9 supplements, which do indeed facilitate lucid dreaming. Viriditas (talk) 21:12, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there's any way that being "probiotic", per se, would confer this property on anything one would eat. I'd need to put a lot more thought into it, to pinpoint specific chemical compounds present in those foods, but it seems to me that there must be molecules in some of these things that are psychoactive. (There's also the issue that your "experiments" are, of necessity, not blinded, so you may also get some effects because you have come to expect them.) It's plausible that that Bacillus makes trace amounts of who knows what. The tea certainly contains theophylline, which is related to caffeine. There's certainly the possibility that a research project of trying to isolate the active compounds in these edibles could lead to something interesting. Follow the molecules. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Gut bugs can certainly produce psychoactive metabolites, including serotonin. See this review. Veriditas, your experimental methodology needs to be refined a wee bit (OK, a lot), but with adequate controls you just might find, if not the secret of dreams, perhaps the Monsters from the Id? Good luck! JoJo Anthrax (talk) 01:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

More here. Interesting stuff. Viriditas (talk) 01:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

TIL.. we have an entire article on the subject. Viriditas (talk) 01:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Those are interesting links, both of you, thanks. There's no doubt that there are a lot of potential leads for new kinds of beneficial substances, out there in nature. I know there's also some interesting screening going on, for medically beneficial molecules, in venoms, of all things. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I remember as a kid playing in the dirt a lot, even up to the age of 8, after which I kind of lost the interest. I've read that kids exposed to bacteria in dirt at a young age have better immune systems. I have to say, mine is pretty good and I rarely get sick, and when I do, it's just for a day or two. Viriditas (talk) 20:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there's a significant amount of science to back that up. There's evidence that decreasing amounts of pediatric play outdoors may be causally related to increasing asthma rates and increasing food allergies. ((edit conflict) before you added that link.) --Tryptofish (talk) 20:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

It makes me wonder if we are compelled to get dirty as kids for health protection. I remember having an unusual fascination with the dirt, and along with my play buddies, building strange fortifications, dams, canals, and tiny cities, similar to what people do with sand castles. Then we learn about hygiene and are compelled to do the opposite. Viriditas (talk) 21:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Almost all of human evolution, as a species, took place before the time of antisepsis, so that's the state of being that we evolved for. The addition of antibiotics is unquestionably a good thing, as are the avoidance of severe infectious food poisoning and the use of sterile technique in surgery, but the jury is out on other kinds of "cleanliness". --Tryptofish (talk) 21:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Tell that to the Trump admin! When they said MAGA, I had no idea they meant to take the country literally back to 1776. I read a book a while back that said every man, woman, and child was drunk most of the time in early America because the available water was unsafe to drink and alcohol was the safest way to get your water requirements. Not sure how true it is, but it did open my eyes a bit. Viriditas (talk) 21:18, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

And don't forget Vaginal seeding, for which the evidence is sketchy but interesting, building off the hypothesis that exposure to and ingestion of the mother's vaginal flora helps to populate the newborn's gut biome. It isn't my field, now or ever, but I believe there is a substantial literature reporting that in the 1700s (Britain, ocean-going vessels, etc.) most people, including children and pregnant women, were at least semi-drunk pretty much all the time because of the unhealthy state of their "drinking" water. Providing safe drinking water to most of the world's population is one of the greatest public health achievements of the past 200 years. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 21:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to try to forget that. My first thought was that this was going to have something to do with Goop (company). --Tryptofish (talk) 21:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Get out of my head! That's exactly what I was thinking before I clicked the link. Viriditas (talk) 21:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm a worm, and I'm eating your brain. And with that, let's close this discussion. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:03, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

That's too bad. I had a pusillanimous joke all queefed up and ready to go. Viriditas (talk) 22:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

And I doubt he was referring to these particular seeds as a source of discontent. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 22:12, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

You kids get off my lawn! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Re: Western Motel

I would like to start working on Western Motel. If you can come up with the greatest hook in human history, that would be appreciated. Viriditas (talk) 21:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

No pressure. :-) Viriditas (talk) 21:14, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:19, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Funny story that has no relation to anything in this discussion: I was going through some very old photos I made back in 2007-2008. It turns out I captured some pretty nice photos of some Hopper paintings that I wasn't aware of at the time. Seeing the painting up close and personal is so much different. I don't see any texture in that professional photo from the museum I linked to, but in my own, you do see it. I was having this discussion with Randy Kryn on his talk page a few months ago. Although we don't agree on much, we both agreed that seeing a painting in person and seeing it in digital form is such a different experience that we almost need new technology to handle it. It's an interesting idea. Viriditas (talk) 21:30, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh, and in case I forget, the other thing that bothers me, is something like 80% (just guessing, based on how many paintings I've seen on Commons) are uploaded with the wrong colors/white balance, lighting, etc. Something I didn't understand until maybe five years ago is that capturing a good photo of a painting is extremely difficult and you need a very expensive setup; from what I've seen, the body, lenses, lighting, and the right setup required to take accurate photos of paintings are anywhere from $10k and up, although 10k is clearly the very low end, my guess when all is said and done, you're looking at closer to $20k if you include a lab-like workbench for the process). Viriditas (talk) 21:40, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Update: User:APK just sent me images and video of the exhibition in Virginia. It’s quite good. I think the hook should be about that exhibition. See the linked discussion for details. Here is the news article about it. That should make it immediately obvious as to why it should be the hook. Viriditas (talk) 18:51, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that has a lot of potential for a good hook. I'm feeling a little, oh, I don't know what word I want to use, so I'm not sure how much I'll contribute on this, but we'll see. Another thing I notice here is that I think what you are saying about photography is about old-timey film photography, not digital. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:07, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

The word, my friend and mentor, is ennui. It’s times like this that every American needs to rely on their emotional support Canadian. Stay golden. Viriditas (talk) 01:32, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

No, definitely not that. Some kind of mix of depression, anger, irritability, anxiety, and whatever one wants to read into the images on my user page. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:43, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. This is from left field, but your comment reminded me of my grandmother (now deceased), who seemed to have a kind of musical anhedonia, and was unable to derive any kind of pleasure from listening to it. Viriditas (talk) 23:05, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

The problem is related to optical physics, so we would need a physicist to explain it. It doesn't really matter all that much if it is film or digital, there's a quality to the static nature of the captured visible light that a reproduction can't show dynamically, such as how the light appears to change when you move your head or come closer or move farther away from a painting. That's one of the issues, but not the only one. For example, Hopper's Four Lane Road (1956) presents this issue. Writer Larry Aydlette mentions it in an article about an exhibition featuring the work. He writes, "There is also nothing like seeing a Hopper in person. Reproductions (even the one pictured here) don’t do justice to the deep colors of summer that he renders — the darkening horizon, the long shadows, the ribbon of lonely highway." This is a common problem, and it's one I recently wrote a DYK about in Mountain Landscape by Frederic Edwin Church. You'll note, the problem in both paintings is remarkably similar, having to do with the deep colors of a sunset that photos can't capture. In the latter example, it was believed that it has something to do with the way the human eye perceives the painting as one moves in proximity to it. There may be something to this. Now, in terms of the texture that I captured in my old photo, I'm not sure why that is, but there are competing styles of museum photography where one captures the deep texture while another flattens or evens it out. Viriditas (talk) 22:59, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I gathered some online sources here. I'm sure there are also plenty of books that would be useful. Unfortunately the closest place that has Western Motel: Edward Hopper and Contemporary Art is 1.5 hr away. Just let me know when you want one of the video clips uploaded (if Commons allows it). APK hi :-) (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Great! I've discovered some fascinating background info about the painting that is very hard to find. I was able to confirm and verify the basic elements of it in the general literature, but there are deep connections with Los Angeles history in the late 1950s that would be amazing to expand upon, but that part is almost impossible to find because it's locked up in archival documents that almost nobody has written about! Wow. If anyone knows of any Los Angeles history experts on this site that could help, please let me know, because there's a story here that's never been told before, and without sources we can use, I can't tell it. Viriditas (talk) 23:11, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Just letting you know that the ArbCom case below is likely to suck all the oxygen out of the room for several weeks if I decide to present evidence in it. So I probably don't want to commit to doing much about the painting page. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:32, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

You're choosing to work an arbcom case rather than write about a painting? No wonder you're feeling angry and irritable! :) Viriditas (talk) 21:16, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Touché! Then again, I feel angry and irritable about things that need to be fixed with the editing environment, and will continue to feel that way until they get fixed – and, for me, that gets in the way of being able to enjoy content work. On the other hand, the Arbs seem to be making some dumbass decisions that may lead me to deciding not to participate anyway. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:34, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Your hopeful idealism is impressive, especially this late in life. Despite your biological age, I am curious how is it you seem to drink from this bottomless spring of cool, clear optimism. The demographic here favors people who don't want change of any kind, and would prefer to keep things the way they are due to their strange predilection for the status quo, often manifesting as a unique value system based on predictability and structure, two things which are incompatible with progress and change. I will leave it to you to think about this. Thank you for persisting in the face of inevitability. Viriditas (talk) 21:33, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Like. I can check out any time I like, but I can never leave. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:23, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Tryptofish after ArbCom (2025). --Tryptofish (talk) 22:33, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I can't get over all the discussions on Reddit about an entire subculture of people devoted to eating roadkill. I never knew it was even a thing. I suppose it's probably not all that bad, but wouldn't it have to be fairly fresh to consume safely? Anyway, there isn't a day that doesn't go by where Reddit makes me think I might have lived a very protective and insular life. Oh, and before I forget, this is apparently very much a thing in Hawaii. There's a loose, informal network of people in the restaurant industry, mostly chefs, who will collect fresh axis deer if it has been recently killed by a car. This is also very illegal, as the state doesn't want people doing this, but there's barely any enforcement on this front. The meat is kept by the chefs for their own personal consumption. Viriditas (talk) 22:43, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Palestine-Israel articles 5 arbitration case opened

You offered a statement in an arbitration enforcement referral. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 5. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 5/Evidence. Please add your evidence by 23:59, 14 December 2024 (UTC), which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 5/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Party Guide/Introduction. For the Arbitration Committee, SilverLocust 💬 06:14, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Plant cognition

I noticed you left some comments 11 years ago on the Plant perception (physiology) talk-page. I would like to improve the article. The field of plant cognition/plant intelligence/plant neurobiology is not accepted by most plant scientists and I do not believe it should be mentioned in detail on the plant perception article. The idea of plant cognition or intelligence shouldn't be confused with mainstream plant physiology. In the "plant intelligence" section on the plant perception article I believe that much of it should be deleted and some of it merged to plant cognition. Psychologist Guy (talk) 01:50, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this stuff has been and still is on my watchlist, so I actually saw some of your edits related to the cognition page yesterday. As I started to write my answer to you, I looked at the Plant perception (paranormal) page, and saw that you have just nominated it for AfD. As far as I'm concerned (and keep in mind that I'm a neuroscientist in real life), the idea that plants have "cognition" is nonsense, so my inclination is to merge the cognition page into the paranormal page, sort of the opposite of what you have proposed. I'm not going to nominate the cognition page for deletion – yet. But I think the physiology page should be purely RS physiology, and the paranormal page should be repository for all of the nonsense. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:43, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

The field of "plant neurobiology" or "plant intelligence" is being led by Tony Trewavas, František Baluška, Stefano Mancuso, Peter V. MInorsky and Paco Calvo, apart from Calvo they are all botanists, and they have easily published between 40 and 60 peer reviewed papers on plant neurobiology. The term is misleading so some of them now just use the term "plant intelligence". They have had a lot of media exposure. I agree with you that what they are promoting is nonsense but there is no referencing classifying their ideas as paranormal. The paranormal thing was only Cleve Backster. This other group of researchers are promoting a fringe cellular consciousness model but it should be noted that many of those researchers have also published sound plant physiology work and they do not make recourse to the paranormal. They have dressed up their research with false terminology to sell books. The problem is that there are no good references on paranormal plant perception, which doesn't exist. The only referencing that exists on that is criticism of Backster's experiments. There are many sources on plant neurobiology including plenty of criticism. Plant perception (paranormal) doesn't exist, it's just another name for the Backster effect. I agree that it would be good to have all the nonsense on a single page to separate it from plant physiology. Is there an alternative article title we can use?

Regarding plant cognition, someone has created a category for that and put it all over the place . I am open to name changes but I doubt the plant cognition article would be deleted at an afd as there is too much sourcing on it. I think we just need one large article with all of the nonsense on, that's why I was keen to put it all over at plant cognition. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

PER WP:RS, the only title suggestion I have is to rename the "plant cognition" article plant intelligence, as that is the term most of the modern sources use. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:12, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, I guess that following WP:COMMONNAME has a logic to it. But, because this discussion is already happening simultaneously in multiple places (AfD, talk page merge discussion), it's probably best if we keep it there, rather than here on my talk. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Fish and brains

Two of your fave topics! Viriditas (talk) 20:44, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Still no article on the brain microbiome, and although it is purely speculative, one wonders if an article could be created. If not, could it be discussed in a parent article? Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 21:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe not – Epipelagic (talk) 04:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Epipelagic, and good to see you around. I figured that it sounded, well, fishy. Just making sure that Viriditas notices that. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:12, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I read it and acknowledged it on Epipelagic's talk page yesterday. You should put their talk page on your watchlist. Viriditas (talk) 21:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I should be making my watchlist a lot smaller. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Why was the neuroscientist accused of navel gazing? Because they like to examine the inner workings of the mind. Viriditas (talk) 20:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC) Get yer mind out of yer belly button! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC) I screwed that up. It should have read "their mind". Viriditas (talk) 20:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC) No worries, probably attributable to brain microbes. Navel oranges are the new black. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:03, 22 December 2024 (UTC) Do you have any favorite comedians? Asking for a reason... Viriditas (talk) 21:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC) There are many that I like, hard to pick just a few. I'm curious about the reason. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC) It's a surprise. Any comedic writers stand out? Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 22 December 2024 (UTC) Uh-oh. I sense this is leading to a punch line. OK, then, I'll mess with you and say (insincerely) Carrot Top. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC) No punch line. So the opposite of Carrot Top? Gotcha! Steven Wright Louis C.K. Bill Hicks Mitch Hedberg Jerry Seinfeld John Mulaney Ricky Gervais Norm Macdonald Jim Gaffigan Patton Oswalt If you had to choose two? Viriditas (talk) 21:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC) Well, if I'm gonna pick from within that list, I'll pick C.K. (yes I know about the controversy) and Seinfeld. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC) That joke C.K. tells about the boat left me in stitches. Viriditas (talk) 21:46, 22 December 2024 (UTC) Um, I wish you a speedy recovery? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC) The doc says I have ten seconds left to live. Strange doctor. Got their medical degree out of a cracker jack box. Viriditas (talk) 22:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC) If you're still here to read this, the same doc says you have to stop masturbating. So he can examine you. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC) I just found out; that was no doctor. It was an elevator salesman. What a downer. Viriditas (talk) 22:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC) Can you get it back up? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC) Did I say elevator? I meant enveloper. Currently stuck in a Möbius loop. See you on the flip side. Viriditas (talk) 22:26, 22 December 2024 (UTC) Are you taking me into a strip club? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

"Eat them up yum!" (?) Martinevans123 (talk) 22:34, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Still the weirdest music video of all time. Viriditas (talk) 22:37, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

My personal fave: Big Mouth Billy Bass. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

My serious answer: This sounds odd to me, because of the immunulogical implications. I'd want to wait until there is more source material before starting any content here. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

• I can attest that I've met a few people with nothing but a microbiome in their heads, but unless & until I write up and publish a case study or two, that would be WP:OR. Also, I'm pretty sure I can find a weirder video than that, though it wouldn't be something you could watch at work... ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:20, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

  I agree entirely. I also remember you and I discussing a music video of Sponge Bob doing heavy metal. (To make it unwatchable at work, you'd probably have to make it Sponge Bob Leather Pants. Yes, I know I'm sick in the head.) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:47, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I know I'm sick in the head. Likely due to these guys setting up shop in your brain. How did they get there? Yeah, you got it...vaginal seeding. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 02:58, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

And here I thought your username was a reference to the band... I can't say I'm disappointed, though. I've always been more of an AC/DC guy. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I mean, I could tell you what I've been up to lately. I bed that would make you feel totally N = (0 0 1). ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I had a packet of vaginal seeds once, but sadly they never bloomed. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:29, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Aww, man, that bites! ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:38, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Now I realize where I went wrong in life. I should have had a worm in my brain, instead. Then, I'd be in charge of all of HHS. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:26, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Yet another example of worm privilege at work, right there. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry mate, we're fresh out of headworms. Could you make do with one of these? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:17, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I eat worms for breakfast. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 15:30, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Beats ants, I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:36, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

• What about the gut-brain axis? Andre🚐 20:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  That's for real. Just so long as those gut-bugs stay out of one's brain (and don't eat RFK's). --Tryptofish (talk) 20:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  Don't be bacilly. Andre🚐 23:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  I'll be gram-positive not to. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Palestine-Israel articles 5 updates

You are receiving this message because you are on the update list for Palestine-Israel articles 5. The drafters note that the scope of the case was somewhat unclear, and clarify that the scope is The interaction of named parties in the WP:PIA topic area and examination of the WP:AE process that led to two referrals to WP:ARCA. Because this was unclear, two changes are being made:

First, the Committee will accept submissions for new parties for the next three days, until 23:59, 10 December 2024 (UTC). Anyone who wishes to suggest a party to the case may do so by creating a new section on the evidence talk page, providing a reason with WP:DIFFS as to why the user should be added, and notifying the user. After the three-day period ends, no further submission of parties will be considered except in exceptional circumstances. Because the Committee only hears disputes that have failed to be resolved by the usual means, proposed parties should have been recently taken to AE/AN/ANI, and either not sanctioned, or incompletely sanctioned. If a proposed party has not been taken to AE/AN/ANI, evidence is needed as to why such an attempt would have been ineffective.

Second, the evidence phase has been extended by a week, and will now close at 23:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC). For the Arbitration Committee, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 03:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Nadolig Llawen

Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda.
Happy Christmas and Best wishes for a peaceful 2025: "Gabriel's Message" performed by the Winchester Cathedral Choir.
("Birjina gaztetto bat zegoen", Basque folk carol)

---

Martinevans123 (talk) 09:06, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Martin, and the same to you (which I can safely say, not knowing if I can trust the translation.) And stop getting me into trouble with those underage Italians. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

It's all relative, you know, dude. As Little Big beg to remind us. (to my mind the video has a lot of Cyriak about it!) N.B. Sophia doesn't actually appear in this one, sorry. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:16, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

• Tryptofish wishes to post this disclaimer. The views expressed by other editors on this talk page represent the mental states of those other editors, and have not necessarily been preapproved by Tryptofish or by any other aquatic lifeform. Or even Biggie Smalls. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Or even even Martina. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Joyous Season

I wish that you may have a very Happy Holiday! Whether you celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Hogmanay, Festivus or your hemisphere's Solstice, this is a special time of year for almost everyone! May the New Year provide you joy and fulfillment! Thanks for everything you do here. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:59, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Spread the holiday cheer by adding {{subst:User:Coffee/Holidays}} to your fellow editors' talk pages.

Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:59, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks so much, and the same to you! --Tryptofish (talk) 19:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Saved you a click

Happy Holidays! Viriditas (talk) 07:01, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, ViridiSanta! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:13, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Sensory compensation hypothesis

See User:Viriditas/sandbox16. There's a lot of material in the sources for a new article. I was surprised we don't have anything already? Viriditas (talk) 21:38, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

We do have a significant amount of related content: Sensory substitution, Cortical remapping, Cross modal plasticity, Crossmodal attention, Multisensory integration, and to some degree Stimulus modality. That's what I could find after a quick search. You might want to check the categories these pages are in, to see if there are other related pages. You can decide whether you want a standalone page for the hypothesis, per se, or whether it should be a section in one or more of these existing pages. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:22, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Is the doctor in?

How is the New Year treating you? Are you staying warm? I need the opinion of a neuroscientist. No, I don't have a fear of cats, and I can fly a kite just fine. My problem has to do with the word cilantro. Yeah, I know, it's weird. If I don't use the word for, let's say, a month or so, I lose the ability to instantly recall it, and I have to think deeply, perhaps 10-15 minutes or more, before I can recall it again. This has been going on with just this word for perhaps a decade. I don't seem to have this problem with any other word. What do you think is causing this, and how long do I have left? Signed, C. Brown. Viriditas (talk) 23:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Semantic satiation is a hell of a drug Andre🚐 23:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Some people might think I'm anti-semantic. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

There should be a "laugh" or "😂" button next to the "thank" button. Though I'm sure it would get some creative abuse. Andre🚐 00:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Scientifically, I'm not aware of any memory issue that would involve only one single word. Never heard of that. How about coriander? If you're thinking deeply about it for 10–15 minutes, maybe it's just something you've gotten focused on, but not anything of health significance. (The word might come to you more easily if you put it out of your mind, instead of "working" on it.) But I'm not gonna practice medicine without a license (and, for that matter, without an MD). If you're concerned about it, ask a doctor. (I hope you have good insurance. I hope everyone does.)

About how I'm doing, I'm OK. I'm still not particularly feeling it, as to content work. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Funny thing about coriander. Whenever I try to think about cilantro, I come up with coriander and curcumin, but never cilantro. It's like that one word is blocked for me. Viriditas (talk) 00:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know if this will work, but I know of a memory trick that is based upon associating the thing you want to remember with something else, that isn't really related, but that might help remind you. Maybe something like "The fact that I can't remember it is silly." And "silly" sounds like the beginning of "silly-antro". --Tryptofish (talk) 00:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Try this mnemonic suggestion: go to the top of the tallest stairwell you know and yell "CILANTRO" then drop something weird down to the bottom. Maybe an old appliance that you were going to replace, like this microwave I have to toss because my new microwave is an air fryer. Inside, pack it with fresh green cilantro and a bit of lime. Then, go out for Peruvian food and eat as much green salsa as you can. Andre🚐 00:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Along similar lines (lateral lines?), I suggest that you give something the name "Cilantro." A tree in your yard, the neighbor's kid, or...a pet fish? JoJo Anthrax (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

That's the best idea I've seen. I will try that. Viriditas (talk) 00:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to name my citrus tree "cilantro". I say citrus, because I haven't identified what kind it is just yet, but I think it's a lemon tree. Viriditas (talk) 01:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I use those things all the time. It's a variation on the art of memory, memory palaces, etc. I use them to memorize shopping lists like this: Bees buzzing for bread, cats meowing for cantaloupe, dogs barking for dijon mustard, neanderthals grunting for naan, orangutans hooting for oranges, parrots squawking for persimmons, Talaxians cooking tomatoes, etc. The issue is that when I try to come up with cilantro, I think primarily of coriander and secondarily of related words like curcumin. It's like I can't encode cilantro. Viriditas (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I just thought of something else. Since cilantro is pungent (more so when you are working with it, with the smell filling the room after chopping it up), and there is a strong correlation between olfactory memory and long term memories, I wonder if the smell of cilantro is related to something in my past that was traumatic. Viriditas (talk) 00:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Not as traumatic as the re-education camp RFK will throw you in for smoking too much of that cilly cilantro. Andre🚐 04:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Plot twist: I’m already in the camp. This is all just a fantasy I’ve created to pass the time. Viriditas (talk) 07:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) For what it's worth, I had this exact problem today where I couldn't remember the word cilantro, and eventually had to settle on coriander knowing that isn't the name I'd normally use. Cilantro though just wouldn't come to me no matter how hard I tried. KoA (talk) 04:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

"The Cilantro Paradox", by ChatGPT

Dr. Iris Kline frowned at her screen. The data was perfect—too perfect. It was the kind of perfection that whispered to a physicist, "You made a mistake." She leaned closer, the glow of her monitor outlining her face in ghostly blue. The experiment at CERN that morning had been ambitious, even by her standards: a collision of particles at an energy level just shy of the Planck scale. Officially, they were probing the quantum foam, searching for anomalies that might hint at extra dimensions. Unofficially? She had wanted to make a ripple in reality itself. And now, it seemed, she had. A notification chimed on her phone. BREAKING NEWS: TRUMP ANNOUNCES SECOND PRESIDENTIAL TERM. Iris blinked. "Second?" she muttered. As far as she remembered, Donald Trump had been a businessman and reality TV star, not a political figure. She brushed it off as fatigue—she hadn't slept in 36 hours—and returned to her data. But something gnawed at her, a faint tickle at the edge of memory, like trying to recall a dream already half-forgotten. — Dr. Nadia Rivera knew something was wrong the moment she tried to order lunch. Standing in line at the hospital cafeteria, she stared at the menu screen above the counter. "What’s the garnish on the soup today?" she asked. The cashier’s smile froze. "The what?" "The green herb," Nadia said, gesturing vaguely. "You know, the one that tastes… soapy to some people?" The cashier's brow furrowed. "Parsley?" "No, not parsley," Nadia said, frustrated. "It’s…" She trailed off. The word was there, right on the tip of her tongue. She could feel it. But every time she tried to grab it, it dissolved, slipping through her mental grasp like water through fingers. She returned to her office unsettled. A neuroscientist specializing in memory disorders, she recognized the symptoms of aphasia, but this felt different. It wasn’t that she couldn’t remember the word; it was as though the word had never existed. To test herself, she called a colleague, Dr. Patel. "Quick question," she said after some small talk. "What’s that herb some people hate because it tastes soapy?" Dr. Patel laughed. "Sounds like you’ve been hanging out with the culinary snobs again. But I don’t know… Is that a real thing?" The pit in Nadia’s stomach deepened. "Never mind," she said and hung up. She turned to her computer, typing into Google: "herb tastes soapy." Nothing. The search engine offered "parsley" and "dill" but no sign of… whatever she was looking for. It wasn’t just that people couldn’t remember it. The word itself had vanished. — By evening, Nadia had pieced together enough anecdotal evidence to convince her she wasn’t imagining things. Other doctors, patients, even her barista—no one could remember the word. Worse, the recipes she’d scrolled through earlier seemed subtly altered, their ingredients lists lacking the thing she knew should be there. The reality of it made her dizzy. She went home and poured herself a drink. That was when she saw the notification on her phone: CERN DISCOVERS QUANTUM ANOMALY. Her heart skipped a beat. The headline reminded her of the articles she’d read years ago about particle accelerators potentially creating "false vacuum" events or destabilizing the fabric of spacetime. Irrational as it seemed, she wondered if… no. Impossible. But curiosity gnawed at her. She clicked the article, skimmed it, then found herself searching for the name of the lead researcher: Dr. Iris Kline. By midnight, she’d tracked down Iris’s email and fired off a message: "Dear Dr. Kline, my name is Dr. Nadia Rivera, a neuroscientist at St. James Hospital. Something very unusual is happening, and I suspect your recent experiment may be related. May we speak?" — Iris responded by dawn, though not with words. She appeared on Nadia’s doorstep, looking haggard but electric with urgency. "Did your email say… cilantro?" Iris asked by way of introduction. Nadia’s breath caught. The word jarred her like a distant memory suddenly snapping into focus. "Yes! That’s the word!" Iris stepped inside. "It’s not just you," she said. "I ran the experiment yesterday, and today I woke up in…" She gestured vaguely, her hand trembling. "This timeline. Trump. President. Twice. Does that sound right to you?" "No," Nadia whispered. "That’s not right at all." Iris nodded grimly. "I think the experiment created a resonance event. A ripple. We didn’t just detect extra dimensions—we collided with one. Things were… swapped, maybe overwritten. And now reality is… unstable." — Before they could test Iris’s hypothesis, they found themselves in danger. Nadia’s phone buzzed with a notification from an unknown number: "STOP ASKING QUESTIONS." She showed it to Iris, who paled. "We’ve been flagged," Iris muttered. "I saw this happen to a colleague who leaked data on quantum tunneling. Government goons will be here soon." "Goons?" Nadia asked, incredulous. "They work for Trump’s special enforcement division," Iris said. "They don’t ask nicely." Sure enough, an unmarked van screeched to a halt outside Nadia’s apartment moments later. Iris grabbed Nadia by the wrist. "We’re leaving. Now." — They fled to a safe house—a cluttered lab Iris kept at a university where the funding board hadn’t yet realized she wasn’t teaching any actual classes. There, she unveiled her plan. "If the experiment caused this," she said, setting up a portable particle collider, "another experiment might reverse it. Or at least shift us to a new timeline, hopefully closer to the original." "And if it doesn’t?" Nadia asked. Iris hesitated. "Then we… might make things worse." As Iris calibrated the machine, the pounding of boots echoed in the hallway outside. They were out of time. Iris slammed a lever forward, and the collider hummed to life. — The world rippled. For a moment, Nadia saw everything: timelines stacked like layers of glass, shimmering and infinite. She saw herself in countless iterations—a teacher, a soldier, a gardener. She saw Iris, too, her doppelgangers tweaking experiments, raising families, or staring into the void. And then, just as quickly, it was gone. They awoke in silence. The lab was empty. Outside the window, the streets looked normal, unmarked by armed vans or propaganda posters. Nadia turned on the TV. The president’s face appeared. "Kamala Harris," she whispered. Relief swept over her. But something was still… off. Iris pointed to a banner scrolling beneath the news anchor: "In local news, scientists confirm extinction of parsley family." Nadia’s heart sank. "Iris…" "I know," Iris said, her voice hollow. "We didn’t fix it. We just… shifted the glitch." Nadia tried to recall the taste of cilantro but found she couldn’t. Instead, a new absence began to form in her mind, an aching blank where another word should have been. Parsley. — And somewhere, in a timeline just a hair’s breadth away, Donald Trump’s goons received orders to stop hunting the word "cilantro." Now, they were after "oregano."

Having logged in today, to find that my entire talk page retinue has gone cuckoo, I will randomly link to this: . --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

That song was played as the outro on NPR's latest episode of "On the Media". They played it again last night, which is when I heard it while driving in my car. Were you listening as well? Viriditas (talk) 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Yup, exactly that. When I heard it, I just had to find it online. (Obviously, I have sophisticated tastes in music.) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Speaking of good music, this cover of "Golden Lady" by Abbey Lincoln is one of my faves. Viriditas (talk) 10:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

A barnstar for you! (2)

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		For your brilliant summation at the Village Pump concerning MAGA's threat to Misplaced Pages. Ravenswing 21:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

"Let's make Greenland great again!" (Now taking bookings for tropical condo concessions) Martinevans123 (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Ravenswing, thank you very much for the kind words. (By the way, I've always been amused by the phrase "Defender of the Wiki". I think this is the first time I've gotten that one.) Martin, I'm booking a one-way ticket to Wales (not Jimmy). This is about: . --Tryptofish (talk) 22:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I know. And also applaud your sentiments. Well said! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:21, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

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