Talk:Ruscism: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 02:48, 6 April 2022 editMy very best wishes (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users56,459 edits →Scope of the article ← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 02:40, 5 December 2024 edit undoMy very best wishes (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users56,459 edits →See also section ... maybe needs some trimming?
(581 intermediate revisions by more than 100 users not shown)
Line 1:		Line 1:
	{{Talk header}}		{{Talk header}}
	{{Ds/talk notice\|topic=e-e}}		{{Contentious topics/talk notice\|topic=e-e}}
			{{Banner holder\|collapsed=yes\|text=Past deletion, move and merge proposals\|1=
	{{Old AfD multi \|date=3 March 2022 \|result='''no consensus''' \|page=Russian fascism (ideology)}}
			{{Old AfD multi
	{{WikiProject Russia\|class=Start\|importance=\|hist=\|pol=yes}}
			\|date=22 December 2014 \|result='''delete''' \|page=Ruscism
	{{WikiProject Politics\|class=Start\|importance=}}
			\|date2=3 March 2022 \|result2='''no consensus''' \|page2=Russian fascism (ideology)
			\|date3=27 July 2023\|result3='''Keep'''\|page3=Ruscism (2nd nomination)}}
			{{Old move
			<!-- Move 1 -->
			\|date1=April 10, 2022 \|from1=Russian fascism (ideology) \|destination1=Rashism \|result1='''Moved'''
			<!-- Move 2 -->
			\|date2=April 10, 2022 \|from2=Russian fascism (ideology) \|destination2=Fascist transformation of the Russian state \|result2='''Moved to Rashism'''
			<!-- Move 3 -->
			\|date3=1 January 2023\|from3=Rashism\|destination3=Ruscism\|result3=moved\|link3=Special:Permalink/1132307589#Requested move 1 January 2023}}

			{{Old XfD multi
	== Some possible sources ==
			\|deletion = merging
	Contemporary:
	*{{cite book \|last1=Shenfield \|first1=Stephen \|title=Russian fascism: traditions, tendencies and movements \|date=2016 \|publisher=Routledge \|location=London \|isbn=9781315500058 \|edition=Second \|doi=10.4324/9781315500058 \|url=https://api.taylorfrancis.com/content/books/mono/download?identifierName=doi&identifierValue=10.4324/9781315500058&type=googlepdf }}
	*{{cite journal \|last1=Umland \|first1=Andreas \|title=Concepts of Fascism in Contemporary Russia and the West \|journal=Political Studies Review \|date=January 2005 \|volume=3 \|issue=1 \|pages=34–49 \|doi=10.1111/j.1478-9299.2005.00018.x}}
	*{{cite journal \|last1=Gregor \|first1=A. James \|title=Fascism and the New Russian Nationalism \|journal=Communist and Post-Communist Studies \|date=1998 \|volume=31 \|issue=1 \|pages=1–15 \|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/48609343 \|issn=0967-067X}}
	*{{cite news \|last1=Motyl \|first1=Alexander J. \|title=Is Putin's Russia Fascist? \|url=https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/is-putin-s-russia-fascist/ \|work=Atlantic Council \|date=23 April 2015}}
	*{{cite journal \|last1=Norris \|first1=Stephen M. \|title="The East is a Delicate Matter": Russian Culture and Eurasianism \|journal=The Russian Review \|date=2015 \|volume=74 \|issue=2 \|pages=187–190 \|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/43662234 \|issn=0036-0341}}
	*{{cite journal \|last1=Kolstø \|first1=Pål \|title=Crimea vs. Donbas: How Putin Won Russian Nationalist Support—and Lost it Again \|journal=Slavic Review \|date=2016 \|volume=75 \|issue=3 \|pages=702–725 \|doi=10.5612/slavicreview.75.3.0702}}
	*{{cite book \|last1=March \|first1=Luke \|title=Elusive Russia: Current Developments in Russian State Identity and Institutional Reform under President Putin \|date=2007 \|publisher=Leuven University Press \|isbn=978-90-5867-608-5 \|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qdzz1.5}}
	*{{cite news \|last1=Stanley \|first1=Jason \|author-link=Jason Stanley \|title=The antisemitism animating Putin’s claim to ‘denazify’ Ukraine {{!}} Jason Stanley \|url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/25/vladimir-putin-ukraine-attack-antisemitism-denazify \|access-date=6 March 2022 \|work=The Guardian \|date=26 February 2022 \|language=en}}
	(Counter argument:)
	*{{cite book \|last1=Laruelle \|first1=Marlène \|title=Is Russia fascist? Unraveling propaganda east and west \|date=2021 \|publisher=Cornell University Press \|location=Ithaca \|isbn=9781501754135}}

			<!-- Merge1 -->
	Historic:
			\|date1=15 April 2022 \|merge1=Putinism \|page1={{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive 2#Merge Proposal \|result1='''Not merged'''
	*{{cite book \|last1=Gottfried \|first1=Paul E. \|title=Fascism: The Career of a Concept \|date=2017 \|publisher=Cornell University Press \|isbn=978-1-60909-183-5 \|page=47+ \|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7591/j.ctv177tbz6.6}} (Soviet Union totalitarianism, "Red fascism")
			<!-- Merge2 -->
	*{{cite journal \|last1=Rogger \|first1=Hans \|title=Was There a Russian Fascism? The Union of Russian People \|journal=The Journal of Modern History \|date=1964 \|volume=36 \|issue=4 \|pages=398–415 \|url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/1875247 \|issn=0022-2801}} (])
			\|date2=15 April 2022 \|merge2=Nashism \|page2={{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive 2#Merge Proposal \|result2='''Not merged'''
	<!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span>
			<!-- Merge3 -->
	:The question is which of those sources actually cover the subject of Rashism (a.k.a. Russicism or Ruscism) if this phenomenon even exists. ] (]) 23:32, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
			\|date3=15 April 2022 \|merge3=Eurasia Movement \|page3={{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive 2#Merge Proposal \|result3='''Not merged'''
			<!-- Merge4 -->
			\|date4=15 April 2022 \|merge4=Chekism \|page4={{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive 2#Merge Proposal \|result4='''Not merged'''
			<!-- Merge5 -->
			\|date5=15 April 2022 \|merge5=Russian world \|page5={{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive 2#Merge Proposal Proposal \|result5='''Not merged'''
			<!-- Merge6 -->
			\|date6=15 April 2022 \|merge6=Putinism \|page6={{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive 3#Putinism Merge \|result6='''Not merged'''
			}}

			}}
	*Here is a typical argument on this subject (from , probably qualify as a PhD thesis, written in 2012):
			{{WikiProject banner shell\|class=C\|1=
	{{quotation2\|It is undeniable that Vladimir Putin’s rise to power bears significant resemblance to that of Adolf Hitler. This paper has demonstrated that, like Hitler in Weimar Germany, an
			{{WikiProject Russia\|importance=Low\|hist=\|pol=yes}}
	authoritarian leader can come to power by capitalizing on the defeated mindset of a people who have undergone significant hardships. The collapse of the Soviet Union and the Yeltsin government’s approach to democracy significantly affected the average Russian. The people of Russia, like the Weimar Germans, felt betrayed. Russians share a belief that their great power status was taken from them without ever having lost a battle, that they have had to relinquish unfairly both territory and resources, and that they have had to endure both economic and political turmoil as a result. These feelings of betrayal, in conjunction with both Putin’s exploitation of the chaotic conditions of 1990s Russia and his authoritarian leadership style that promotes revanchism, irredentism and Russian fascism, have resulted in Putin’s assumption of ultimate power in Russia. The answer to the title question, as demonstrated by the comparison of the rise to power of Hitler and Putin, is that Putin, in many ways, is already Russia’s Hitler}} ] (]) 01:31, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
			{{WikiProject Politics\|importance=Low}}
	:Your source is about ], not Raschism. ] (]) 22:39, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
			}}
	:These are all opinion pieces. ] (]) 16:19, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
			{{User:MiszaBot/config
			\| algo = old(30d)
			\| archive = Talk:Ruscism/Archive %(counter)d
			\| counter = 5
			\| maxarchivesize = 75K
			\| archiveheader = {{Automatic archive navigator}}
			\| minthreadstoarchive = 1
			\| minthreadsleft = 3
			}}
			{{annual readership}}
			{{FAQ}}

			== Dangerous word... ==
	== This article from an Australian newspaper might come in handy somewhere ==
	A discussion on far left and far right perspectives on Putin
	] (]) 01:43, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

			In my humble opinion, words are important, terminology creates logical and emotional associations in human brains. So, this word is dangerous, because it uses the word "Russian", which means simply every man that was born by the Russian women and speaks Russian language. Why do we blame every Russian, even if they do not support invasion in Ukraine? We must call it " Russian militarism" or maybe "ideology of Russian supporters of invasion". Why use the word that offence russians who not support invasion, or maybe even supports Ukraine? I think this word leads to russofobia and national conflicts, not to clear understanding of the situation. May the peace be on Earth. Stop war! ] (]) 18:00, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
	:But how is Putin related to the alleged rachism phenomenon? ] (]) 23:49, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

			:Nearly all the sources used are Ukrainian sources. This is fully propaganda. Once the war dies down. We can delete some of this nonsense. ] (]) 20:14, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
	== Editing problems ==
			::Ukraine has faced Ruscism in the closest way. Once the war is down this article will be updated with a references to thousands of russian criminals sentenced in UN court and to studies about this state-backed neonazi ideology that was spread by means of genocide. The main reason it can't be formalized is that Ruscism is not defeated yet. ] (]) 22:38, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
			::The word was first coined by Chechen independence leader Dzhokhar Dudayev and was used even before Russian invasion of Ukraine. ] (]) 12:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
			:In my opinion, the only dangerous word here is "russophobia". It shifts the conversation from Russia committing crimes now, it's historical responsibility for numbers of crimes throughout Eastern Europe in XX century and its colonial policy years prior. In its effects it's similar to "All lives matter" which is an anti-thesis to "Black lives matter". ] (]) 15:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
			:it’s a shame this page exists ] (]) 06:08, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
			::Its a shame that Ruscism and "ruskies" (cliche of Aryan race) and "Ruskie mir" (cliche of Lebensraum im Osten") exist. ] (]) 05:41, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
			:Nice to see how Misplaced Pages has turned into a source of western racism. Yet again... ] (]) 07:37, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
			::], you politically opposing a concept does not mean it doesn't exist. ] (]) 17:12, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
			:Rashism is combination of two words "Russia" + "Fascism". It's just a shorthand and doesn't imply any ethnic bias. ] (]) 12:46, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
			:]
			:That what happens when nobody who is a resident of country (not born, but tax resident) objects against state-backed neonazism. ] (]) 05:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

			<small>— ] (]) has made ] outside this topic. </small>
	{{ping\|Tsans2}}
	<br>1. :
	* none of the sources are about "rachism" apart from which is a report on the opinion of a local deputy and thus not a RS to establish scientifically a concept.
	2. :
	* , : report on Danilov's opinion, nothing about {{tq\|The term "rashism" is in common usage among military and political elites of Ukraine.}} And the opinion of Danilov is not a scientific opinion or worthy of being mentioned.
	3. :
	* Mykola Tomenko's opinion is irrelevant.
	] (]) 23:05, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

	:~~disagree~~. it'~~s just your own view what is relevant and what is not.~~ ] (]) 23:57, 13 ~~March~~ 2022 (UTC)		:] you're right ] (]) 18:44, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
	::{{ping\| Tsans2}} ], ]. You have also added back all the non-reliable or unrelated references I had removed without justifying yourself. ] (]) 00:43, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

			Absolutely correct, it’s a shame this page exists. ] (]) 07:00, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
	===Justification for removal===
			*I think this is completely wrong interpretation. If applied to people (i.e. to "rashists") the term is not about all ethnic Russians or Russian-speakers (many thousands of ethnic Russians are killed by ''rashists'' in Mariupol), but to citizens of Russia who support or participate in Russian military aggression, colonialism, or state-promoted totalitarianism (they are not necessarily ethnic Russians, some of them are Buryats, whoever). The term does apply to the entire Russian armed forces during wars in Chechnya, Georgia, Syria and Ukraine. ] (]) 02:36, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
			**Moreover, it is normal to use country name to refer to the regime, even if it's fascist. E.g. ], ]. --] (]) 11:15, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

			:It is a shame that state-backed Neonazi ideology of Ruscism exists. ] (]) 06:42, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
	{{ping\|Tsan2}} Let us review each of those source I have removed in which you have added back numerous times. I had provided a rationale in my edit summaries for each of those removals; since you continue not to communicate, I will have to do it again here for those. The subject of the article, while vague, appears to be Russian Fascism/Raschism, an alleged specific form of ], just like ], ] or ] are a form of ].
	*: despite the title, no mention of the topic, only numerous Conservative to far-right topics discussed here and there without any coherence between the topics. No mention of what the source is supposed to support in the article: "considered by many to be the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of ] in the ]. This interpretation is based on the ideas of the 'special civilizational mission' of the ], Moscow as the third Rome"
	* "" : brief mentions of Fascism in Russia, the article is about ]; no mention of the "expansionism" in the article, only that "For Ziuganov, ''Stalinism'' shorn of its Marxist-Leninist trappings, infused with nationalist and statist sentiments, rendered politically homogeneous, 'organic' in character (Ziuganov, 1997 p. 85), developmental in intent, and expansionist in practice, constitutes a political ideal." (p. 11; my emphasis), and that "What seems evident is that a plausible case can be made for the presence of Fascist elements in the political ideology of some of the major opponents of the Yeltsin administration in post-Soviet Russia. That those elements constitute the grounds for identifying its proponents as 'right-wing extremists' is, at least initially, counterintuitive." (p. 12)
	* "": the article states some people have called ] ]; it does not describe Russian Fascism/Raschism, simply that "Fascist regimes have charismatic dictators with hyper-masculine personality cults. These regimes generally evince a hyper-nationalist ethos, a cult of violence, mass mobilization of youth, high levels of repression, powerful propaganda machines, and imperialist projects. Fascist regimes are hugely popular—usually because the charismatic leader appeals to broad sectors of the population. Putin and his Russia fit the bill perfectly."
	* "": the article states ] is almost ]; it does not describe Russian Fascism/Raschism
	* "": the article states ] is ]; it does not describe Russian Fascism/Raschism
	* "": copy-paste of an "opinion expressed in a post on Facebook by historian, chairman of the Ivano-Frankivsk Regional Council Oleksandr Sych", not a notable nor reliable opinion although it does discuss the topic
	* "", "", "": absolutely no mention of the topic or anything related to political ideology, it simply describes how the "Z" symbol is used with no mention of Fascism. ''The Times'' article states: "Russians around the world have been daubing the white letter on black backgrounds to denote support for their army fighting in Ukraine. The adoption of the 'Z' as a symbolic expression of support is viewed as particularly controversial as it was originally daubed on tanks attacking Ukrainian cities. Police in Kyrgyzstan, a former Soviet republic, said they would fine drivers featuring it on their cars. Czech police will treat the 'Z' symbol in the same way as the swastika." tengrinews.kz reports that in Kazakhstan the symbols "Z" and "O" are forbidden to be displayed on cars. So those source support most of the information in the line they are in front of, but no link is made, either in the WP article or in the newpaper articles, between the "Z" and Russian Fascism/Raschism.
	*I will not check the sources supporting what is written later about the Z symbol, as the symbol's link to the alleged Raschism has no been proved; those parts should simply be removed
	] (]) 21:50, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

			So this Russian fascism, I wonder if there are some examples of Russian officials claiming Russian superiority over other ethnicities/races? If I missed the announcement, and Misplaced Pages has been converted to hate bible or something, fine with me. Just like to know when changes like that occur. Anyone has ideas what slur we should use for American, British, and Canadian Nazism defined governments? After all, those states all oppress their minorities, don't value lives of non-whites, disregard international agreements, USA illegaly occupies land all over the globe and assassinates people 24/7. If a Snyder that built his "fame" on making excuses for real Nazi collaborators in Poland and Ukraine, and calling the people that defeated Hitler fascists can do it, are we supposed to agree to also become immoral scum like him? I swear, the dishonorable assholes are aparently in charge of society now, and everyone else forgot how to read a document or use their brain. ] (]) 05:45, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
	:*I agree with regard to sources about letter Z. As about others, you are simply saying they are not on the subject, whereas they ''are'' actually on the subject of the alleged modern-day fascist political system and ideology in Russia (aka Rashism). I am not saying all these claims are completely true, but they are notable enough and sufficiently well sourced to be included on the page. ] (]) 16:30, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
			:''if there are some examples of Russian officials claiming Russian superiority...''? Yes, of course. Some of them are described on pages ], ], ] ("unity" means that Ukrainians have no right to exist because they are Russians and all their land is Russia - just to simplify), ], etc. ] (]) 01:50, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
	:*:{{ping\|My very best wishes}}
			::It's also worth noting the hate speech, e.g. . -- ] (]) 11:37, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
	:: you are making you own ] and ]. No reliable source has stated what you described. Those who have claimed the Putin gevernment was Fascist or had Fascist elements never used the term "Rashism", nor have they described the alleged Fascism or Fascist elements as part of a sub-ideology. At best those claims can be a section at ], but cannot be an article.
	:: ~~you~~ ~~completely~~ ~~avoided~~ ~~the~~ ~~criticism~~ of ], ~~you~~ ~~seem~~ to ~~even~~ ~~implicitly~~ ~~support~~ ~~those~~ ~~fictitious~~ ~~references~~. ] (]) 16:40, 17 ~~March~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		:::Oh yes. There is so much of that, and not only about Ukrainians, but also about Russians who recently left the country, the enemy West, etc. I am not reading it to remain sane. ] (]) 13:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
			:::All this hate speech and other warmongering by Russian officials (e.g. today ) serve an important purpose: to paralyze Western leaders with fear. In essence, they are telling "We will kill you all", and these are not just empty words, given the increased attacks on Ukrainian civilians. That fear mongering is the only reason why Ukraine did not receive a lot more weapons long time ago, and still did not receive Western tanks, aviation and long-range missiles. ] (]) 18:14, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
	:::I am sorry, but no, this is all sourced or can be easily sourced. Word "Rashism" ("рашизм" in Russian) is an obvious combination of two words: "Russian" and "fascism". Speaking about English language sources, here are a couple of ''scholarly books'' saying it ,. Speaking about Russian language sources, this is very widely used (I am linking only to books). Speaking about Ukrainian sources, well, you know. But again, this page is not about this specific word (there are many words to define the same), but about the ''subject'' of the alleged contemporary Russian ].] (]) 16:56, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
			::::It's true, but there is another breakthrough in military aid happening right now. Anyway, WP:NOTFORUM in this talk. -- ] (]) 13:59, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
	::::{{ping\|My very best wishes}}
			::::It also serves to cheer the genocide of civilians by Russian military. ] (]) 05:47, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
	::::* So you claim that when I wrote e.g. {{tq\|no mention of what the source is supposed to support in the article: "considered by many to be the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of Russian Federation in the 21st century. This interpretation is based on the ideas of the 'special civilizational mission' of the Russians, Moscow as the third Rome"}}, there is indeed a mention of this in the article an I am deliberatly lying or have completely missed those parts?
			:If you're going to search for a word-for-word similarities between German and ruzzian fascisms you may not find them or find only a few. That still doesn't mean that ruzzian regime and ideology are not fascist-like. And because it's not the classic fascism known from the 20th century but a ruzzian breed of it, it's received its own name. But several hallmarks common to both German and ruzzian fascism stand out: irredentism, revanchism, imperialism, colonialism, cult of the past along with repressions, curtailing of civic freedoms, one party rule. Calling a spade a spade has never been dangerous unless you're living in a tyranny which ruzzia is. ] (]) 10:36, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
	::::* I have already refuted your two sources
			::Ein Volk = "Odin narod"
	::::* The existence of a word does not mean it meets the encyclopedic criteria ] (]) 17:06, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
			::Untermensch = "nation that had been artificially created by Lenin"
	:::::Well, in your diff , not only you did not refute anything (because the discussion of Rashism in these books is on the subject of this page), but you actually supported what I just said, i.e. the flat denial of RS on your part. ] (]) 17:12, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
			::Lebensraum im Osten = "Russian World" ] (]) 22:41, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
	::::::{{ping\|My very best wishes}} The fact a word is used in a certain way is not related in any way to the topic. At best is it worth a Wiktionary entry. And you have once again ignored all my other arguments.
			:::Nonsense, Ein volk is about racial purity and consolidation in isolation, Odin narod is a frequently used expression that refers more to the trinity, Belarusians, Velikorissian and Malorussian, and in general it is more about the proximity of nations. The nation artificially created by Lenin is an absurd propaganda theory, but it is far from the same as the Untermensch. The first is about arguments about the legitimacy of the invasion and that "We are one people", and the second is about hierarchy and the legitimacy of discrimination.
	::::::Either provide ''reliable'' sources that state the sub-ideology of Raschism is also called Russicism or Russian Fascism and provide details of them. The subject of the article is not "Suspicions of Fascism during Vladimir Putin's presidency", otherwise this would be only worth a section at ]. ] (]) 17:21, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
			:::Lebensraum im Osten this is about expanding to expand and settle the nation, and the Russian world is just an irrendentism. ] (]) 00:37, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::*First of all, you are not listening. I just said that the ''subject'' of this page is NOT word "Rashism", but the alleged ] ideology and practice in that country. Why do you think they attacked Ukraine? These RS are providing one of the explanations. Moreover, the RS just have been already provided, right on the top of this page and in this thread. ] (]) 17:30, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
			::::Exactly what Ruscism is. Not just racial purity, but the race is made up: "Aryan race"="ruskies". But only Velikorossian has agreed to be repainted into this made up race while Malorossian has transformed into Ukrainian gaining their national state in the beginning of XX. Because ruscism craves for racial purity, they have claimed Ukrainians as Untermensch and started to ethnically cleanse (]) the russian occupied territory ("]" or "] from them. ] (]) 05:55, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::*:{{ping\|My very best wishes}}
			::::As we may see, "Ruskiy mir" is exactly about expanding, ethnical cleanse on the gained territory and about concentration camps network on the occupied territory: ] ] (]) 05:59, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::: You have not conceded a single one of my points, which I interpret as you supporting the use of FICTREFs and disagreeing with all of the points I have made
	:::::::: So the subject of the article is "Fascism in Russia", not "Russian fascism"/"Raschism"/"Russicism". I am tired of playing with words. And yes, it revolves around words, as the words "Raschism" and "Russicism" are used by Ukrainians as catch-all, vague anti-Russian terms.
	:::::::: {{tq\|Why do you think they attacked Ukraine? These RS are providing one of the explanations}} which ones? No RS says that, and neither does the article. ] (]) 17:42, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::*From the very emergence of this claim about modern-day Russian state-promoted fascism, it was used specifically to explain the roots of Russian military aggression, starting from the ]. See how it was used by ] ( - this not a great source, but sufficient to document his words. ] (]) 18:14, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::*:{{ping\|My very best wishes}}
	:::::::::::*:This is not a RS at all - Dudayev is not a RS and the source which quotes him is not a RS either -, and there is no mention of Ukraine in your source. And the original source of this source is a livejournal.
	:::::::::::*:Again, you have ignored all my other arguments. ] (]) 18:22, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::*::{{ping\|HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith\|Jr8825}} since it appears me and My very best wishes cannot come to a conclusion, what is your opinion? Do you disagree with my removal of those sources I have discussed at the top of this sub-section ("Рашизм і фашизм: знайдіть дві відмінності, etc.) along with the claim(s) they accompany? ] (]) 18:34, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::I am not sure what you are trying to prove here. The comparisons of Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022 and the Nazi invasion in 1941 are so abundant in discussions and so obvious. Here is just a random example in Russian language sources . Author say: ''Today the heroic Ukrainian army is saving the world from a new fascist plague. '' No matter if you agree or not, it now appears so frequently in political and historical discourse that we can not ignore the subject. ] (]) 18:40, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::You have completely avoided almost all of my previous arguments. ] (]) 18:58, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::I haven't read the entire discussion in-depth, but I am leaning towards Veverve's side. It definitely seems like at least ''some'' of these sources don't support the claims being given (eg. the articles that clearly say Putin is only ''nearly'' a fascist) or are only tangentially related to the article topic. I can't speak for ''all'' the sources, as I have not read all of them, but I think it's pretty obvious at least some should be removed. ] (]) 20:44, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::Sure, welcome to check sources and improve. However, this page is currently under AfD, and the scope is not clear. There are two options based on the AfD discussion I think. One of them is making a general page ] (instead of current disambig. page) that would cover a long period of time, i.e. sub-subjects that appear in the disambig. page. Another option would be to cover only the more narrow subject of "Ruscism/Rashism", i.e. the aggressive fascist-like ideology and practice of the current regime in Moscow, starting from ] (our page ] would be a sub-page of such page). I think one could do both pages. I think someone recently suggested good sources here . Something like ? Yes, that also seem to be on the subject. ] (]) 00:55, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::As about that source<ref>{{Cite web \|last=Snegovaya \|first=Maria \|title=Is it Time to Drop the F-Bomb on Russia? Why Putin is Almost a Fascist \|url=https://isnblog.ethz.ch/politics/is-it-time-to-drop-the-f-bomb-on-russia-why-putin-is-almost-a-fascist \|access-date=2022-02-26 \|language=en-US}}</ref>, originally published in a journal by Duke University , that is actually a great source on this subject (do not judge by the title!). ] (]) 01:56, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

	==== ~~Follow-up~~ ====		== Ruscism ==
	{{ping\|My very best wishes\|HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith}} are we all agreeing on the remarks I made that those sources along with what they support must be removed from the article? If no, please explain why, e.g. by showing that the information the sources are supposed to support in the WP article are indeed in said sources and thereby refuting my FICTREF claims. ] (]) 16:46, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
	:No, I do not think the discussion above shows agreement. As about sources, many new just appeared, such as , ,,,, etc., along with older ones . Sources on this subject are very easy to get. ] (]) 21:56, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
	:And of course this: . Unfortunately, the cited article by ] is behind paywall. ] (]) 22:03, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
	::{{ping\|My very best wishes}} I did not discuss any of those sources you have just now presented. Please stay on topic.
	::Do I have to individually ask you e.g.: "show me in '' where you see any mention of the topic and the fact that Rashism is 'considered by many to be the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of Russian Federation in the 21st century. This interpretation is based on the ideas of the ‘special civilizational mission’ of the Russians, Moscow as the third Rome'."? This is what this discussion is about, about whether or not {{tq\| those sources along with what they support must be removed from the article}}. ] (]) 22:38, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
	:::"where you see any mention of the topic"? Whole article is obviously on the subject (Google translation: ). Does it support such exact wording? No, I think it would better be used to support another statement (I just fixed it). Also, the lead could be rephrased, but certainly not in the way you did , i.e. a removal of sourced and explanatory description in the lead and replacement it by a meaningless phrase. ] (]) 00:43, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
	::::{{ping\|My very best wishes}} no, it is not about the topic at all apart from having the word in the title. And no reliable source talks about Raschism being the current ideology of Putin's government, even less of said ideology being linked to the Moscow, Third Rome concept. ] (]) 12:20, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
	::::You have no answered concerning the other sources I mentioned. Do you believe they have to be kept and that they contain the information I stated they did not? ] (]) 23:37, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
	:::::I guess your silence means you agree on my removal of those sources and the information they were supposed to support but in fact do not. ] (]) 13:02, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

			Nothing to complain about, just saying something. Compared to older early 2022 edit of this article, current version of this page emphasize it was a neologism and derogatory term, which is accurate, thanks for the editor who edited it. Only Ukrainian media and society or it's supporter, and very few scholar use that terms, while the rest of the world never use that word to describe Putin government ideology.
	=== Tsan2's revert ===
	{{ping\|Tsans2}} you have those information which since they were not included in the sources. Your justification is "sources are ok". Please explain where you found all those information in the sources; as for me, I have already produced an analysis explaining why none of those information are to be found in the sources given.
	<br>You also restored the "the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of the Russian Federation in the 21st century" (I had it to "the alleged political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of the Russian Federation in the 21st century" with {{ping\|Buidhe}}'s ]). Please also explain why you have gone against the consensus here. ] (]) 14:04, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

	=== New additions ===
	{{ping\|Tsans2}} I see you have . Here are my thoughts:
	* "The terms rashism and rashist are in common usage among military and political elites of Ukraine, as well by journalist, influencers, bloggers, etc." -> none of the three sources state this. You have quoted one ] article, one defence-ua.com article which is not a RS from what I understand, and one glavcom.ua article. Each article ''uses'' the expression (either one or the other, or both), but none of those articles state the expressions "are in common usage among military and political elites of Ukraine, as well by journalist, influencers, bloggers, etc." This is pure ] and ] at best. And what does "etc." mean here?
	* Why should we care (]) about what Oleksiy Danilov has to say?
	* Russian philosopher ] in 2022 has described the whole current Russian society as 'schizo-fascism,' meaning: 'fascism that is hiding under the mask of fighting against fascism.' " + "President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky calls current political regime in Russia as well as Russian invasion as Russian fascism." -> This is a consideration for ]. Moreover, the ] is that it is not ''any claim of Russia being a Fascist government and any comparison of past Fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin''.
	So, unless you can justify those additions, I will remove them.
	] (]) 10:08, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

			Early days of the Russian invasion is absolutely wild, Misplaced Pages articles covering the war, at least during 2022, disregarded Misplaced Pages rule on neutrality and source reliability due to fervent pro Ukraine sentiment and anti Russian sentiment were at its peak. What claimed, alleged even if it was absurd, become a fact. Nevertheless, current Misplaced Pages editor are more unbiased and have objectivity, carefully analyze the source whether if it was confirmed or not, whether if the source such as news media said if they verify or not a claim from a warring side, more tolerant of Russian source instead of outright refusing, which allow recent Misplaced Pages pages about the war to be much neutral than articles in 2022. ] (]) 08:19, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
	:# Common usage is common, as the grass is green. but okay, I will rephrase it.
	:# Nope, why should you care? because, you are the one who wanted to delete this article, and now, you are obsessed with it? it's okay for everyone - what Danilov says, but not you. So please, justify why we shouldn't care what top war politician of Ukraine says officially and condemns russians in context of russian fascism.
	:# This is a consideration for ]. - nope, you don't know the topic neither you speak Ukrainian or Russian to understand it. Regarding this: Moreover, the ] - it's just your idea or statement. You wrote it, you defend it, I'm lucky with that, but don't make it a point here.
	:] (]) 07:52, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
	::{{ping\|Tsans2}}
	::1) none of the sources you have added claim this expression is common
	::2) we should not care about what politicians have to say in general when it comes to ]. Why is his opinion worth more than any other politician? I will not answer your ], but I ask you to stop.
	::3) "you don't know the topic" -> Then please, since you created this article, explain what the topic is supposed to be at ]. Meanwhile, my opinion and that of {{ping\|buidhe}} seem to form a consensus on the basis of a scope to say that ''any claim of Russia being a Fascist government and any comparison of past Fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin'' does not consitute the scope of the article.
	::I will revert those additions once again, because you are supposed to discuss before adding as per ]; you clearly do not have "a better understanding of the reverter's concerns". ] (]) 14:04, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
	:::@] 1) I don't mention common - don't mess up
	:::2) why it cares, because it's an official position. this article (the one you wanted to delete) is not about only political science, it's more broad topic. so we do care what Dudaev says, Putin says, Danilov says.
	:::3) it's only your idea. no one revert my edits, but only you. you have been banned for a week from editing this page. and what? no one reverted my edits. what does that mean?
	:::You also deleted not only the text I've returned, but also new thoughts of Ukrainians historians on Rashism. You thought I wouldn't see this? Or you think that the views of Ukrainian historians are not worth mentioning here?
	:::I reverted my edits because you even don't read the article. please be careful. ] (]) 21:44, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
	::::{{ping\|Tsans2}}
	::::* "The terms rashism and rashist started circulating in usage among military and political elites of Ukraine and media." -> none of the source says that the terms rashism and rashist started circulating in usage among military and political elites of Ukraine and media. This is FICTREF and OR from primary sources.
	::::* {{tq\|it's an official position}} the official position of what? this politician?
	::::* You have not expressed any opinion when 12 days ago I asked for feedback on what the scope of the article should be. Do you want to change the lede to something akin to "In Russia, there has been and is some fascist movement and groups as well as claims that some groups in Russia are fascists and comparisons between the actions of some groups in Russia and past fascist regimes"? Feel free to suggest that this article become the most catch-all possible; from the person who "the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of Russia in the early XXI century based on the ideas of the 'special civilizational mission' of the Russians, intolerance, xenophobia, paternalism, Soviet-style imperialism, the use of Russian Orthodoxy as a moral doctrine, and on geopolitical instruments of influence, such as nuclear arsenal, energy resources etc.", I find it quite strange you now suddenly want the scope to be as broad as possible.
	::::* You have also been banned for a week from editing this article. And you , and never argued back on this revert. I have nothing against you personnaly, if this is your concern. I will admit one thing: I appear to be the only one who cares enough that the Misplaced Pages standards be applied to this article to be working on it.
	::::Per ], I ask you to undo your edit; the basis for all discussion is to go back to ]. Otherwise, I will open an ANI. ] (]) 22:22, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
	:::::I don't revert. I put back what is supported by sources and I argued it here. You contstantly delete my additions, including the latest ones with Ukrainian historians. That proves you either don't read the article or don't like their views. ] (]) 09:23, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
	::::Please do not use ] on talk pages, like calling other editors {{talk quote inline\|Ukrainiphobic}}. It's WP policy to ], and base your discussion on policy rather than character. You may want to ] that part of your post. ] (]) 03:52, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
	:::::I removed that part you highlighted. It is possible insulting. Thanks! ] (]) 09:25, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
	::::::Well, ANI it is then. Also two other sources are FICTREF, the closest thing to the content they support is as follows:
	::::::* pravda.com.ua: "Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Oleksiy Danilov is convinced that the word 'racism' has already exceeded 'fascism' in terms of cruelty to civilians."
	::::::* "Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Oleksiy Danilov noted that it is time for the world to get acquainted with a new type of war crimes - racists."
	::::::-> No mention of Danilov "advocat on the natioanl level the use of the word in the meaning of Russian/Putin's fascism, to describe Russia's aggression against Ukraine". I also note that this wording is not neutral at all even if it is what Ukranews says (see below).
	::::::Ukranews does contain something akin to Danilov "advocat on the national level the use of the word in the meaning of Russian/Putin's fascism, to describe Russia's aggression against Ukraine", but it does not precise whether it is Danilov's opinion or an official policy, or whether it is a natonal or international appeal. I will also note that the article uses the expression "путінський фашизм" ("Putinian fascism") to describe raschism; it seem to me that is what the subject of the article should be for Tsans2, despite the lack of clarity of the user's declaration, i.e. ''any claim of Russia being a Fascist government and any comparison of past Fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin''. ] (]) 11:30, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
	{{reflist-talk}}

			== See also section ... maybe needs some trimming? ==
	== New page in Draft space for general Fascism in Russia topic. ==

			The see also section seems excessive. According to ]: ''"Links in this section should be relevant and limited to a reasonable number. Whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense. One purpose of "See also" links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics; however, articles linked should be related to the topic of the article or be in the same defining category. ''" It seems like that advice has not been followed here. ] ] 22:52, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
	This morning I added the ] template to the page ] as the first step of creating a more coherent structure for the topic area. I have just created a page ] which has a few page links and some section headings on with with the intention of eventually putting it there. Rather than waiting until I have written something that I am happy with I am letting people know that it exists and ''inviting everyone to make changes to it''. I hope that this makes things easier for everybody as there is now a (draft) place for the wider context to sit. Feel free to reach out with questions or comments. ] (]) 02:10, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
	:~~Noted.~~ ~~Yes~~, ~~this~~ is ~~probably~~ a ~~good~~ ~~way~~ to ~~handle~~ ~~this.~~ ~~There~~ ~~is about it. But this is not a subject I am really~~ ~~interested~~ in. ] (]) 21:44, 18 ~~March~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		:I removed some, but think the remaining topic are indeed related and helpful to have linked. ] (]) 02:40, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

	== Scope of the article ==

	It seems there are somee problems defining the scope of the article.
	<br>Here are my thought on what the article is about, from what I can read in the lede:
	* The alleged sub-ideology of ] allegedly followed by the Putin government; this sub-ideology's name is "Raschism", "Russicism", "Ruscism" and it has defined characteristics which make it different from other forms of Fascism
	-->The article should therefore never have been named "Russian fascism (ideology)"; all the versions of the article are called "Raschism", see ]. Therefore, I am in favour of a page move of the article to "Raschism".
	<br>Here are my thought on what the article is NOT about, unless on a case-by-base basis ''a clear link is made with the (alleged) Raschism ideology'':
	* Accusations or claims of Vladimir Putin being a ]
	* The broader topic of ]
	* The 2022 invasion of Ukraine by Russia
	* The History of Fascist movements in Russia
	* Parallels between Fascist Italy/the Third Reich/Francoist Spain and Russia under Vladimir Putin
	* Russian far-right in general
	* Russian nationalism
	Do you agree on my evaluation of the scope of the article? ] (]) 20:33, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
	:*No, I think the subject as described in sources above (see several previous threads) should be named as ], ] or ], while ] could be used as a redirect. Then sub-subjects #1, #3, and #5 above would have to be prominently included, while others could too be mentioned in Background or other sections.] (]) 22:43, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
	:*:# Radically changing the scope of an article right after an AfD is not very advised
	:*:# How is your scope worth a separate article? Would it not be better a a section of ]? ] (]) 23:36, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
	::::Yous suggested: ''The sub-ideology of ] followed by the Putin government; this sub-ideology's name is "Raschism", "Russicism", "Ruscism"''. Yes, I agree, this is the scope (but then #1, #3, and #5 above must be prominently included!). Yes, one could make such section on page ], but that does not precludes from having also a separate page which describes the subject in more detail. ] (]) 00:17, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
	:::::No, you do not agree. You believe ''any claim of Russia being a Fascist government and any comparison of past Fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin'' is the scope of the article. ] (]) 10:30, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
	*My thoughts generally align with Veverve. In particular, the charge that Putin regime is fascist is controversial to say the least in RS sources, and should be presented as a contested opinion. Furthermore, there have been different fascist ideologies followed by different Russians throughout history; the place for an overview would be ] rather than an article about 1 singular ideology. (] · ]) ''']''' 23:08, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
	*:{{ping\|Buidhe}} ] exists to attempt to distinguish the two topics, unfortunately it is still a draft. ] (]) 14:26, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
	To be clear, I find absurd to create a page with such a broad title with so many more-or-less-related-but-not-that-much-when-you-look-at-it topics. It seems to me as absurd as creating a page called ] about actual ] in Russia, an alleged ideology of "Russinism", and ], because Major Archbishop ] has and . ] (]) 17:22, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

	*'''Redirect''' already. There is nothing in this article that is salvageable. The made up term, promoted by unreliable Ukrainian publications is all we have got here. ] (]) 05:46, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''': I will speak my mind concerning this article. We do not have the time to wait for someone to create an article on the broader topic of fascism in Russia to replace the current article, since the recent versions of the article, with all of their unacceptable flaws and their vague scope, ]. The article as it is cannot remain, for its problems of scope and the numerous FICTREFs which populate it and which the two main authors (Tsans2 and Jafaz) seem to be fond of. ''It has been ] for too long for this article'' without anyone willing or able to take the necessary steps to uphold Misplaced Pages's standards and policies. With the recent topic-ban of Tsans2 the (among other things) POV-pusher, now I feel is the time to do some cleaning.
	::A) ''First and foremost'': the current title does not reflect the content of this article at all. The title needs to change.
	::B.α) There are three scopes which I have seen being proposed or implicitly proposed for this article:
	:#accusations of ] of being fascist
	:#any claim of Russia having a fascist or fascist-ish government at one point in time, and any comparison of past fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin
	:#ratschism
	::The problems are: the first two subjects could easily fit into a section at ] or ], the third one has no notability in the ] sense.
	::B.β) I have two solutions:
	::*Turn the article into a broad article about fascism in Russia by translating ], and rename the article to ]
	::*Redirect the article to the same place as ], i.e. to a DAB
	::My solutions are not great after an AfD... but what did those who decided to keep the article want to keep, exactly? What scope and subject did they deem notable? I do not see it, and a good portion of the "keep" votes are ].
	::{{ping\|NavjotSR\|HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith}} what are yout thoughts on this? If no one opposes my proposals, I will enact one of my two solutions. ] (]) 05:01, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
	::No objections, this article is a pretty big mess as is. ] (]) 17:30, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
	*Strongly agree with ], the term appears to be made up by Ukrainian media for propaganda purposes re: Russian invasion. Recommend '''Redirect'''. ] (]) 17:28, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
	*:{{ping\|Detsom}} the term likely has a history which goes back before that, as the attempts made between ] and ] at creating the WP ru article seem to indicate. ] (]) 18:19, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
	*::Termin begins in 1995. It is very well explained by Djohar Dudaev in his But it was translated a bit mistakenly - russism. The correct tranclation is Ruscism. ] (]) 18:42, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

	*I have completed the redirect now because the subject fails ] and no attempts were made to prove this to be wrong probably because it is not possible to. Anyone who wants to revert the redirect should better establish GNG here and propose what they want to write than abiding by the misleading ] of the older version. ] (]) 04:32, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

	*'''Comment''': {{u\|Veverve}}, {{u\|My very best wishes }} -- it seems that at this point most editors agree that Russia, especially recently, is in many substantial ways behaving as a fascist state. There are articles on this subject, some are already listed, but more have appeared recently e.g. . It seems that the debate is primarily about the terminology. There is already an article about ], which in itself is compared to fascism. A few days ago, Polish PM described Russia as "totalitarian-fascist state" . It seems that Putinism has been transforming into the Russian fascism as a more distinct ideology. However, it is not yet ''universally accepted'' view, as some scholars/observers/politicians do voice it, while some not (yet). In any case, this is a notable (WP:N) subject and deserves an article, either as a more general "Fascism in Russia" or a more distinct "Russian fascism" article. --] (]) 13:21, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
	*:{{ping\|Mindaur}}
	*:{{tq\|it seems that at this point most editors agree that Russia, especially recently, is in many substantial ways behaving as a fascist state}}: then please edit ] or ] if you want those considerations to be added. This very article (]) has been a pain for all its existence.
	*:{{tq\| A few days ago, Polish PM described Russia as "totalitarian-fascist state"}} why should we care? Are we going to quote ] on any issues he tacles? Being a PM does not mean your opinion is notable or scientific. ] (]) 17:18, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
	*Re to Mindaur (since I was pinged). Yes, absolutely. I will take a look later when I have time. It will take some time, definitely days. Please do not effectively delete this page against results of the AfD. ] (]) 02:28, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
	*:The consensus is to turn this page into a redirect. The AfD ended with no consensus; weeks of discussion later we do have a consensus. ] (]) 02:38, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
	:::Where do you see consensus to to turn this page into a redirect? Please make an official RfC about it and have it officially closed (just as the AfD). And please self-revert. ] (]) 02:48, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

	== Symbol "Z" ==

	Symbol "Z" of racism resulting from Russia's attack on Ukraine in 24 February 2022. ] (]) 15:53, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

	:No source claims that. ] (]) 14:06, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
	::A lot of source can proof this words. You can choose for example by yourself https://www.google.com/search?q=z+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B6%D0%BA%D0%B0&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiY89eyxPj2AhV2_bsIHWxFCyMQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=z+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B6%D0%BA%D0%B0&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzIECAAQGDIECAAQGDIECAAQGDIECAAQGDoKCAAQsQMQgwEQQzoFCAAQgAQ6BAgAEAM6CAgAEIAEELEDOgQIABBDOgQIABAeOgYIABAIEB5QzAVY3RRg0xVoAHAAeACAAYYBiAH2CZIBBDAuMTCYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=6-hJYtjRKPb67_UP7IqtmAI&bih=664&biw=1536&rlz=1C1CHBF_ruUA892UA892 ] (]) 18:35, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
	:::What? ] (]) 21:30, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

	== Semi-protected edit request on 1 April 2022 ==

	{{edit semi-protected\|Russian fascism (ideology)\|answered=yes}}
	Typo: In the section "Ideology of Russian fascism" the word "racism" is used twice where I think that "rashism" is the intended word. ] (]) 20:00, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
	:Redirect so nothing to see here. ] (]) 04:28, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

	== Title ==

	What kind of word is "Russian fascism"? I don't think that anybody has heard of this term applied to this concept. This looks like a pretty horrid violation of ]. ] (]) (]) 15:15, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

	:{{ping\|Dunutubble}} the title was very likely chosen to hide the numerous problems this article has (see among other things: ]). ] (]) 15:54, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
	::A lot of problems can be checked. Can you, please, clarify? ] (]) 18:36, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
	:::Such as the use of FICTREFs or the vagueness around the scope of this article. ] (]) 21:36, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

	== Soft deletion via redirect ==

	{{ping\|Veverve}} I see your huge contributions to this article and I'm thankful for that. However, I don't see the point why to delete the page after consensus was not foudn on AfD a few weeks. If the administrator decided to redirect, than it would be kind of AfD resolution. But to redirect (soft delete) the page here when not so many users are involved in the process, is at least hasty. --] (]) 19:01, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
	* besides, there are enough flags that indicate the problems of the article. --] (]) 19:03, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

	:There is a clearly a consensus for redirection at ]. You are trying to ]. ] (]) 19:20, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
	::@] I see. than I will try to make Rashism article and focus mainly on that. ] (]) 19:34, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
	:::{{ping\| IgorTurzh}} I would disadvise that. From all the sources I could find, the alleged "Raschism" ideology is not notable or defined precisely. Each definition I have seen looks more like an excuse to insult (and I mean real insults, not opinions) ]. If this topic exists, why is there no RS on it? Why is there no reliable political science journal or academically published book discussing it? ] (]) 19:38, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
	::::It's tricky. Ukrainian historians started talking about Rashism. Isn't it enough or only American/Western are reliable? By the way, https://theconversation.com/yes-putin-and-russia-are-fascist-a-political-scientist-shows-how-they-meet-the-textbook-definition-179063 is this a good source in this context? ] (]) 19:46, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
	:::::{{tq\|Ukrainian historians started talking about Rashism}}: in what reliable sources?
	:::::This is 99% about ] (or a hypothetical ] article), with one line on the term "rashyst" described more as an insult or a joke than a political ideology (see also ]). ] (]) 19:53, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

	*The result on AfD was "no consensus". Perhaps this page could be renamed, but not deleted. ] (]) 02:19, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 02:40, 5 December 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ruscism article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 30 days

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Past deletion, move and merge proposals

This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

Keep, 27 July 2023, see discussion.
no consensus, 3 March 2022, see discussion.
delete, 22 December 2014, see discussion.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

'Moved', 10 April 2022, from Russian fascism (ideology) to Rashism.
'Moved to Rashism', 10 April 2022, from Russian fascism (ideology) to Fascist transformation of the Russian state.
Moved, 1 January 2023, from Rashism to Ruscism, see discussion.

This article was nominated for merging. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

Merge with Putinism: Not merged, 15 April 2022, see discussion.
Merge with Russian world: Not merged, 15 April 2022, see discussion.
Merge with Chekism: Not merged, 15 April 2022, see discussion.
Merge with Eurasia Movement: Not merged, 15 April 2022, see discussion.
Merge with Nashism: Not merged, 15 April 2022, see discussion.
Merge with Putinism: Not merged, 15 April 2022, see discussion.

This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Russia: Politics and law Low‑importance

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the politics and law of Russia task force.

Politics Low‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

view · edit Frequently asked questions Why does this article exist at all?

Because it is a notable topic that has been covered by reliable sources.

Isn't this term offensive to Russians? Quite possibly, but Misplaced Pages is not censored and contains many articles on subjects that certain groups may find offensive. The purpose of Misplaced Pages is to provide free information, not to judge the morality of a topic or a phrase. I still think it should be deleted. In order for that to happen, you would need to make a compelling argument in a deletion discussion that the topic is not, in fact notable, and there is not significant coverage in reliable sources. Complaining about it on the talk page will not result in deletion, only a formal deletion nomination with compelling, substantive arguments based on Misplaced Pages policies will do that.

Dangerous word...

In my humble opinion, words are important, terminology creates logical and emotional associations in human brains. So, this word is dangerous, because it uses the word "Russian", which means simply every man that was born by the Russian women and speaks Russian language. Why do we blame every Russian, even if they do not support invasion in Ukraine? We must call it " Russian militarism" or maybe "ideology of Russian supporters of invasion". Why use the word that offence russians who not support invasion, or maybe even supports Ukraine? I think this word leads to russofobia and national conflicts, not to clear understanding of the situation. May the peace be on Earth. Stop war! 79.172.89.185 (talk) 18:00, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Nearly all the sources used are Ukrainian sources. This is fully propaganda. Once the war dies down. We can delete some of this nonsense. Ahm1453 (talk) 20:14, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine has faced Ruscism in the closest way. Once the war is down this article will be updated with a references to thousands of russian criminals sentenced in UN court and to studies about this state-backed neonazi ideology that was spread by means of genocide. The main reason it can't be formalized is that Ruscism is not defeated yet. 2A02:2378:11BD:E0B4:2006:71BB:9E8A:D1BC (talk) 22:38, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

The word was first coined by Chechen independence leader Dzhokhar Dudayev and was used even before Russian invasion of Ukraine. 78.58.3.21 (talk) 12:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, the only dangerous word here is "russophobia". It shifts the conversation from Russia committing crimes now, it's historical responsibility for numbers of crimes throughout Eastern Europe in XX century and its colonial policy years prior. In its effects it's similar to "All lives matter" which is an anti-thesis to "Black lives matter". 94.254.144.201 (talk) 15:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

it’s a shame this page exists RudolFreedom (talk) 06:08, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Its a shame that Ruscism and "ruskies" (cliche of Aryan race) and "Ruskie mir" (cliche of Lebensraum im Osten") exist. 176.113.167.189 (talk) 05:41, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Nice to see how Misplaced Pages has turned into a source of western racism. Yet again... 2A02:3030:615:ECBA:CF9B:3D97:908:EC73 (talk) 07:37, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:IDONTLIKEIT, you politically opposing a concept does not mean it doesn't exist. Ashleighhhhh (talk) 17:12, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Rashism is combination of two words "Russia" + "Fascism". It's just a shorthand and doesn't imply any ethnic bias. 78.58.3.21 (talk) 12:46, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Good German

That what happens when nobody who is a resident of country (not born, but tax resident) objects against state-backed neonazism. 176.113.167.189 (talk) 05:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

— 79.172.89.185 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

@79.172.89.185 you're right 46.72.204.73 (talk) 18:44, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely correct, it’s a shame this page exists. JtLea7 (talk) 07:00, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I think this is completely wrong interpretation. If applied to people (i.e. to "rashists") the term is not about all ethnic Russians or Russian-speakers (many thousands of ethnic Russians are killed by rashists in Mariupol), but to citizens of Russia who support or participate in Russian military aggression, colonialism, or state-promoted totalitarianism (they are not necessarily ethnic Russians, some of them are Buryats, whoever). The term does apply to the entire Russian armed forces during wars in Chechnya, Georgia, Syria and Ukraine. My very best wishes (talk) 02:36, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- Moreover, it is normal to use country name to refer to the regime, even if it's fascist. E.g. Italian fascism, Austrofascism. --Cannibal Rat (talk) 11:15, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

It is a shame that state-backed Neonazi ideology of Ruscism exists. 176.113.167.189 (talk) 06:42, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

So this Russian fascism, I wonder if there are some examples of Russian officials claiming Russian superiority over other ethnicities/races? If I missed the announcement, and Misplaced Pages has been converted to hate bible or something, fine with me. Just like to know when changes like that occur. Anyone has ideas what slur we should use for American, British, and Canadian Nazism defined governments? After all, those states all oppress their minorities, don't value lives of non-whites, disregard international agreements, USA illegaly occupies land all over the globe and assassinates people 24/7. If a Snyder that built his "fame" on making excuses for real Nazi collaborators in Poland and Ukraine, and calling the people that defeated Hitler fascists can do it, are we supposed to agree to also become immoral scum like him? I swear, the dishonorable assholes are aparently in charge of society now, and everyone else forgot how to read a document or use their brain. AzzAzeL-US (talk) 05:45, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

if there are some examples of Russian officials claiming Russian superiority...? Yes, of course. Some of them are described on pages What Russia Should Do with Ukraine, Address concerning the events in Ukraine, On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians ("unity" means that Ukrainians have no right to exist because they are Russians and all their land is Russia - just to simplify), On conducting a special military operation, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 01:50, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

It's also worth noting the hate speech, e.g. . -- Mindaur (talk) 11:37, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Oh yes. There is so much of that, and not only about Ukrainians, but also about Russians who recently left the country, the enemy West, etc. I am not reading it to remain sane. My very best wishes (talk) 13:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

All this hate speech and other warmongering by Russian officials (e.g. today ) serve an important purpose: to paralyze Western leaders with fear. In essence, they are telling "We will kill you all", and these are not just empty words, given the increased attacks on Ukrainian civilians. That fear mongering is the only reason why Ukraine did not receive a lot more weapons long time ago, and still did not receive Western tanks, aviation and long-range missiles. My very best wishes (talk) 18:14, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

It's true, but there is another breakthrough in military aid happening right now. Anyway, WP:NOTFORUM in this talk. -- Mindaur (talk) 13:59, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

It also serves to cheer the genocide of civilians by Russian military. 176.113.167.189 (talk) 05:47, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

If you're going to search for a word-for-word similarities between German and ruzzian fascisms you may not find them or find only a few. That still doesn't mean that ruzzian regime and ideology are not fascist-like. And because it's not the classic fascism known from the 20th century but a ruzzian breed of it, it's received its own name. But several hallmarks common to both German and ruzzian fascism stand out: irredentism, revanchism, imperialism, colonialism, cult of the past along with repressions, curtailing of civic freedoms, one party rule. Calling a spade a spade has never been dangerous unless you're living in a tyranny which ruzzia is. LXNDR (talk) 10:36, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Ein Volk = "Odin narod"

Untermensch = "nation that had been artificially created by Lenin"

Lebensraum im Osten = "Russian World" 2A02:2378:11BD:E0B4:2006:71BB:9E8A:D1BC (talk) 22:41, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Nonsense, Ein volk is about racial purity and consolidation in isolation, Odin narod is a frequently used expression that refers more to the trinity, Belarusians, Velikorissian and Malorussian, and in general it is more about the proximity of nations. The nation artificially created by Lenin is an absurd propaganda theory, but it is far from the same as the Untermensch. The first is about arguments about the legitimacy of the invasion and that "We are one people", and the second is about hierarchy and the legitimacy of discrimination.

Lebensraum im Osten this is about expanding to expand and settle the nation, and the Russian world is just an irrendentism. 81.163.45.41 (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Exactly what Ruscism is. Not just racial purity, but the race is made up: "Aryan race"="ruskies". But only Velikorossian has agreed to be repainted into this made up race while Malorossian has transformed into Ukrainian gaining their national state in the beginning of XX. Because ruscism craves for racial purity, they have claimed Ukrainians as Untermensch and started to ethnically cleanse (Anti-Ukrainian sentiment) the russian occupied territory ("Lebensraum" or "Russian world from them. 176.113.167.189 (talk) 05:55, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

As we may see, "Ruskiy mir" is exactly about expanding, ethnical cleanse on the gained territory and about concentration camps network on the occupied territory: Russian filtration camps for Ukrainians 176.113.167.189 (talk) 05:59, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Ruscism

Nothing to complain about, just saying something. Compared to older early 2022 edit of this article, current version of this page emphasize it was a neologism and derogatory term, which is accurate, thanks for the editor who edited it. Only Ukrainian media and society or it's supporter, and very few scholar use that terms, while the rest of the world never use that word to describe Putin government ideology.

Early days of the Russian invasion is absolutely wild, Misplaced Pages articles covering the war, at least during 2022, disregarded Misplaced Pages rule on neutrality and source reliability due to fervent pro Ukraine sentiment and anti Russian sentiment were at its peak. What claimed, alleged even if it was absurd, become a fact. Nevertheless, current Misplaced Pages editor are more unbiased and have objectivity, carefully analyze the source whether if it was confirmed or not, whether if the source such as news media said if they verify or not a claim from a warring side, more tolerant of Russian source instead of outright refusing, which allow recent Misplaced Pages pages about the war to be much neutral than articles in 2022. Dauzlee (talk) 08:19, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 02:40, 5 December 2024

Dangerous word...

Ruscism

See also section ... maybe needs some trimming?