Talk:Great Purge: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 07:18, 8 December 2022 editMastioDziwkioDerbioBlizkio (talk \| contribs)37 edits Jacek Izworski: GWIEZDNE SZCZENIĘ: daruma, kokeshi, temari, takoTag: Reverted← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 13:55, 10 July 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk \| contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,013,528 editsm Removed deprecated parameters in {{Talk header}} that are now handled automatically (Task 30)Tag: paws [2.2]
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			== Crimes against humanity category removal ==

			] is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. ] (]) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
	== Undue weight in introduction ==
			<!-- Message sent by User:Buidhe@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Buidhe/messages&oldid=1207219674 -->

			== ] issues with "Stalin's role" section ==
	As I understand the original concern was that half of the section belonged to the gas vans. Under the close review of the code it looks like most of the info belonged to a note that somehow lost its opening ref tag while the closing tag still present. After inserting the tag the section does not look very biased to me (although maybe the executioners and the execution methods belong to a separate section, not introduction?). I have removed the undue weight tag ] (]) 00:47, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

			The section, contra ], presents a biased account containing largely only the views of a specific camp of historians. While those historians certainly exist and do have those views, the section incorrectly presents their views as consensus or as fact in Wikivoice. The section should be revised to (1) point out that there is a lively and ongoing scholarly debate as to the extent and character of Stalin's involvement and (2) summarize the views of all sides in this debate. Notable voices excluded from this discussion include the views of ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and undoubtedly others. ] (]) 03:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
	== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion ==
	The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
	* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion \| 2021-08-16T22:38:39.085104 \| Vassily Blokhin.jpg -->
	Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 22:38, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

			:Yeah, the article in general seems to need a serious overhaul with more recent and quality sourcing, like the new Harris book that seems to have been well received. (] · ]) ''']''' 03:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
	== Rename and Reduce ==

			== Not in source ==
	This entry should be retitled "The Great Terror".

			I was reading through the article and noticed the following claim "The officials were mandated to arrest and execute a specific number of so-called "counter-revolutionaries", compiled by administration using various statistics but also telephone books with names sounding non-Russian" , I looked through the source that the claim comes from, ] Black Book of Communism, without a page number and could find no mention of this method of choice with the closest being the NKVD looking through Ukrainian schoolbooks to identify possible members of the OUN during the Second World War (229). If a source could be found for this claim it would prove deliberate ethnic cleansing through the campaign however I was unable to find it in this source. ] (]) 07:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
	That is now the established and generally accepted title in Russia and elsewhere for the intense and indiscriminate period of arrests and executions between August 1937 and October 1938. The title "purge" is outdated and misleading. Evidence accumulated over the past 25 years and published in regional Books of Remembrance and online in Memorial's database of the "Victims of Political Terror in the USSR" shows that Party members were not the main targets of Yezhov and the NKVD during those 16 months.

			== Official but controversial? ==
	The public aspect of the great ] in Moscow overlaps chronologically with, but does not explain, the Great Terror. The two should be treated in separate articles. Arrests and executions after October 1938 should also not be described here -- that only confuses the specific nature of the Terror which culminated in Yezhov's own arrest and removal.

			The article states that "On 30 October 2017, President Vladimir Putin opened the Wall of Sorrow, an official but controversial recognition of the crimes of the Soviet regime." Why was this monument considered "controversial" by the editor? The source does not support this opinion. ] (]) 23:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
	The figures cited in Conquest's original 1968 book and, even, in his 1990 revision are not realistic. Drawing on participant and eyewitness accounts, like Solzhenitsyn in ''The Gulag Archipelago'', he tells the truth of events but the statistical generalisations both classic accounts contain do not accord with the careful research of the past quarter century. In "Crimes against Humanity under Stalin, 1930-1953" (2009), French historian Nicolas Werth, an editor of ], has recently provided a clear overview of the events of 1937-1938, based on Western and Russian research since 1990.

	An English summary of what Werth wrote about the Terror is available here -- https://en.mapofmemory.org/great-terror-1937-1938 -- with a link to his original French article online.

	'''John Crowfoot'''

	] (]) 09:22, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

	== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion ==
	The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
	* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion \| 2022-02-23T11:37:24.068274 \| Korolev posle aresta 1938.jpg -->
	Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 11:37, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

	== The Ukrainian purges of 1936- 1938 ==

	Wasnt there a campaign that was used in the Ukraine during that time between 1936 and 1938 that saw many Ukrainians die. Many worked to death, imprisoned in gulags, and all out executed by the Russians. The exact number is probably not known, but I've heard stories of many millions that perished during this time frame. ] (]) 05:41, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

	== the purge of poles in ukraine and bielorussia, s t a l i n+ & k a t y n!!! ==

	en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Battle_of_Stalingrad&diff=1035342516&oldid=1009994606#sta-lin_assassination_&_kat-yn_march_5_1940_-_march_5_1953

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Crimes against humanity category removal

Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

WP:NPOV issues with "Stalin's role" section

The section, contra WP:DUE, presents a biased account containing largely only the views of a specific camp of historians. While those historians certainly exist and do have those views, the section incorrectly presents their views as consensus or as fact in Wikivoice. The section should be revised to (1) point out that there is a lively and ongoing scholarly debate as to the extent and character of Stalin's involvement and (2) summarize the views of all sides in this debate. Notable voices excluded from this discussion include the views of J. Arch Getty, Sheila Fitzpatrick, R. W. Davies, Stephen G. Wheatcroft, Jerry F. Hough, Lynne Viola, Moshe Lewin, Bob Allen, and undoubtedly others. Brusquedandelion (talk) 03:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, the article in general seems to need a serious overhaul with more recent and quality sourcing, like the new Harris book that seems to have been well received. (t · c) buidhe 03:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Not in source

I was reading through the article and noticed the following claim "The officials were mandated to arrest and execute a specific number of so-called "counter-revolutionaries", compiled by administration using various statistics but also telephone books with names sounding non-Russian" , I looked through the source that the claim comes from, Stéphane Courtois Black Book of Communism, without a page number and could find no mention of this method of choice with the closest being the NKVD looking through Ukrainian schoolbooks to identify possible members of the OUN during the Second World War (229). If a source could be found for this claim it would prove deliberate ethnic cleansing through the campaign however I was unable to find it in this source. Drgerke (talk) 07:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Official but controversial?

The article states that "On 30 October 2017, President Vladimir Putin opened the Wall of Sorrow, an official but controversial recognition of the crimes of the Soviet regime." Why was this monument considered "controversial" by the editor? The source does not support this opinion. 177.26.92.203 (talk) 23:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

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