| Revision as of 18:31, 24 January 2023 editTirronan (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers5,449 edits →Not A Neutral Article← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 12:43, 6 December 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,304,377 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:War of 1812/Archive 29) (bot |
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| archiveurl = http://www.americanhistoryprojects.com/downloads/JMH1812.PDF |
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{{Tmbox|text='''This page is for discussions about changes to the article.''' There has been considerable debate over "who won the war" (please refer to Archives 8 and 9 for the most recent discussions). Historians and the editors have various viewpoints on which side won, or if there was a stalemate. For more information, see the section *Memory and historiography, Historian's views*. However, the consensus, based on historical documentation, is that the result of the war was per the Treaty of Ghent, i.e., ], which, in plain English means "as things were before the war." |
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{{Tmbox|text='''This page is for discussions about changes to the article.''' There has been considerable debate over "who won the war" (please refer to ], ], ], ] and ] for the most recent discussions). Historians and the editors have various viewpoints on which side won, or if there was a stalemate. For more information, see the section *Memory and historiography, Historian's views*. However, the consensus, based on historical documentation, is that the result of the war was per the Treaty of Ghent, i.e., ], which, in plain English means "as things were before the war." |
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'''Please do not use this page to continue the argument that one or the other side "won" unless you are able to present citations from ] to support your claims.''' Per the principle of ] and ], the article can only claim a side's victory if there is a verifiable general agreement. |
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'''Please do not use this page to continue the argument that one or the other side "won" unless you are able to present citations from ] to support your claims.''' Per the principle of ] and ], the article can only claim a side's victory if there is a verifiable general agreement. |
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== The American killed in action == |
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the American gave head in action is listed at 2,200 which is completely false. The source is Warfare and Armed Conflicts: A Statistical Encyclopedia of Casualty and Other Figures which is known to be a terrible book filled with inaccuracies. If you tally American killed on all the pages on Misplaced Pages as well as other engagements not on Misplaced Pages the number comes to around 3,300. ] (]) 18:37, 6 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:Firstly, if you are going to make a change on the page, be sure to actually update/remove the prior source you are replacing, because your prior edit changed the content without changing the citation (which would lead to confusion for the reader if they needed to track down the figures). |
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:In saying that, if you have a contention with the cited content, please provide an actual reliable source for said figures (keep in mind, Misplaced Pages is a reflection of what is published on reliable sources). We do not use other Misplaced Pages articles as a source/citation, as that would be inappropriate self-referencing (per ]). Additionally, we do not surmise our own conclusions by combining figures from multiple soures as that would be considered original research and something not verified by secondary sources (see ] and ] for details on that). Generally speaking (not just for this article) you should not be combining/synthesizing the figures from different sources (given how there differing standards of what is counted, etc.), let alone from Misplaced Pages (as that's self-referential). ] (]) 19:50, 6 January 2023 (UTC) |
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== Can we give the americans an image of their outfits? == |
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== Not A Neutral Article == |
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While the British have an image for their outfits in that era, The Americans don't. can we change that so we can see what the Americans looked like in the war of 1812? |
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This article states more often than not that the cause of the war was British actions. The historians quoted supporting this view, however, are all American and their objectivity is obviously questionable. |
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(I'm fine if someone responds with yes or no.) ] (]) 15:52, 15 November 2024 (UTC) |
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Needs a discussion as to whether this is an American-centric article and should be more neutral as per Misplaced Pages guidelines. ] (]) 18:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC) |
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== Infobox == |
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:Provide examples, because I don't see a real problem. |
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:There is a wide variety of opinions in the United States on the War of 1812. U.S. historians Ronald Drez and Troy Bickham clearly don't share the same opinion of this war. Same with U.S. historians Donald Hickey and George Daughan. |
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:I would like to know why Benn and Lambert are still quoted on the main article. Lambert is just a Royal Naval enthusiast with very heavy anti-American rhetoric who failed to research the land campaign. Benn's information is better but very outdated; the book is not nearly as informative as Taylor or Toll. |
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:American-centric would be that the United States won. The main article is far from that perspective. I would argue that the article gives too much emphasis to the Canadas based on modern popular perception. ] (]) 00:44, 22 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:: It is often screamed that this article is tilted. One gentleman took it as a personal crusade to have the article state that the British won for 13 years. Throughout the report, we took pains to present the facts and only the facts without commentary of any sort. While a small war, it is a complex one. Some Canadians would swear on a stack of bibles that American greed was the only reason the war started. Some Americans insist that since we kept the country whole, we won. However, there is ample documentation on both the American Government of the time and the British that maritime trade was the issue. |
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About the revert: |
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:: The object of contention over the last 15 years that I have been involved as an editor on this article has been the outcome section. There are and remain wars that do not lend themselves as a won/lost outcome. This war was one of them. Having read through the letters and memorandum of both governments, it becomes apparent that both sides wanted out of a war that had no chance of ever ending outside of a settlement. |
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I understand why it was reverted (I'd be guessing likely due to the "Both sides claim victory" and "Native American defeat" parts), but I don't exactly know why everything was removed? |
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:: As with the American Revolutionary War, trying to supply and equip an army for continuous operations from across the Atlantic Ocean was all but impossible in the age of sail. Moreover, the lack of a good transportation network crippled any offensive operation from either side of the US/Canadian border. Further, the one edge the British enjoyed in land operations, a professional military, had disappeared when American professional military formations began appearing. |
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Even though I obviously shouldn't have added some of the information I did decide to add, other things I added such as other casualties surely shouldn't have been removed? ] (]) 09:10, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:: British proponents will point with pride the accomplishments of the Royal Navy. Rightly so. But, Americathann didn't need trade as anything but a profit center. As I have repeatedly stated, neither side ever concluded a successful offensive campainn. |
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::From the long view, the America of 1812 was unwilling to change society to field a large professional army and build a road network to enable a successful Canadian campaign. That same lack kept the British from accomplishing attempts to move forward with such ended in disasters. The two sides were like drunken boxers able to hurt one another but never force a conclusion.] (]) 18:24, 24 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:The changes to the result parameter are contrary to ]. Per ], the infobox is not a place for detail. It is there to summarise ''key facts'' from the article. The article should remain complete without the infobox. The casualty section is a mess and quite contrary to the guidance. Your edits there only take things from bad to worse. We should be writing such things into the article. Regards, ] (]) 10:45, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::So are you blaming me or the infobox itself? |
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::''"The changes to the result parameter are contrary to ]."'' |
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::I think I clearly acknowledged that I made a mistake here, don't particularly get the point of repeating it to me. |
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::''"The casualty section is a mess and quite contrary to the guidance.Your edits there only take things from bad to worse."'' |
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::How do I worsen the casualty section by adding more info to it? Is there a problem in acknowledging the fact that there isn't only one source giving one specific casualty number? I don't get this point in the slightest. ] (]) 11:46, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
While the British have an image for their outfits in that era, The Americans don't. can we change that so we can see what the Americans looked like in the war of 1812?
I understand why it was reverted (I'd be guessing likely due to the "Both sides claim victory" and "Native American defeat" parts), but I don't exactly know why everything was removed?
Even though I obviously shouldn't have added some of the information I did decide to add, other things I added such as other casualties surely shouldn't have been removed? Setergh (talk) 09:10, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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