| Revision as of 04:28, 31 January 2023 editYourlocallordandsavior (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users9,776 editsm →Portrait change← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 21:48, 6 January 2025 edit undoPeaceray (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators95,036 edits →Very minor edit request.: ReplyTag: Reply |
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== Regarding the article's current primary portrait == |
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== Hamilton's Jewish roots == |
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The current portrait being used to portray Hamilton at the top of the article is not Hamilton. The portrait was painted by John Trumbull two years after Hamilton's death, meaning that the portrait is merely what Trumbull remembers Hamilton looking like. There are many other contemporary portraits of Hamilton to choose from, some of which were also painted by Trumbull, that provide a much more accurate depiction of Hamilton particularly in his later years. Thank you for your consideration. ] (]) 02:44, 9 May 2023 (UTC) |
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The Misplaced Pages article negatively depicts my research on Hamilton's Jewish origins by making reference to two critics: Michael Newton, who was not actually responding to my book (as mine came out six years after his self-published book did), and Mara Cohen Ioannides, an instructor (she is erroneously identified as a professor in the Wiki article) who published an H-Net review that was roundly debunked here: |
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https://networks.h-net.org/node/8585/reviews/10784192/cohen-ioannides-porwancher-jewish-world-alexander-hamilton |
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Meanwhile, the Misplaced Pages article makes no mention of reviews from established scholars who have accepted the book's findings, such as Stephen Whitfield, who called the book "ingenious" here: https://www.jewishbookcouncil.org/book/the-jewish-world-of-alexander-hamilton |
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or Mike Fink, who called it "remarkable" here: https://www.providencejournal.com/story/opinion/columns/2021/08/26/opinion-fink-jewish-world-alexander-hamilton/8237924002/ |
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or Nan Goodman who called it an "invaluable contribution" here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14664658.2021.2015304 ] (]) 22:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:Agreed. ] (]) 16:09, 6 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:Yeah, the current text does appear misleading. Feel free to make a ]. My first impression is that that paragraph could be cut down to one or two sentences tacked onto the previous paragraph, sticking to the facts and mentioning that Hamilton might have been raised Jewish but little is known for certain. ] (]) 16:02, 26 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::Also agreed ] (]) 02:34, 19 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:It most certainly is a portrait of Hamilton, and it is not based merely on memory of the artist as explained in the caption. This is a stable item in the article for some time and has been a result of this same consensus discussion in the past. In addition, the proposed portrait while contemporaneous was criticized in its own time and after as a poor representation by both family and others. ] (]) 17:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== What's the point of quoting Paul Johnson? == |
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:I regarding Newton's argument as to not seem like a response of any sort. Regarding Cohen-Ioannides, you're correct that she's not a Jewish Studies ''professor'' (she's an English professor) but she has a ] in Jewish Studies and she has authored several books regarding Judaism & Jewish people in the U.S. so she qualifies as an ''expert'' in the field . By the way, regarding the reviews you listed: 1) Whitfield's review actually notes that the work is "supremely ]" and its claim and although he calls the book's thesis (as you noted) "ingenious", he also calls it "tentative". 2) Fink's review doesn't comment on the theory at all. 3) Goodman calls the theory "compelling" (i.e. interesting) but that's about it. We should follow the scholarly consensus and make sure not to create a ] as the theory hasn't (yet) been adopted by the majority of scholars. ] (]) 18:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::Thanks for your reply and for editing. A few comments: (1) Cohen-Ioannides is still inaccurately described as a "professor" when she is in fact an instructor, (2) Contrary to the entry, I don't actually argue that "Hamilton's mother must have converted to Judaism" but rather that she "probably" did , (3) to describe a work as "revisionist" is not to gainsay its credibility but merely to comment on its departure from conventional thinking. In fact Whitfield says that chapter one (wherein I lay out my evidence for Hamilton's likely Jewish identity) would have made "a terrific scholarly article." (When he says the theory is "tentative" he's referring to my own description of my thesis as probabilistic, rather than to his tentative acceptance of my thesis.)(4) Jonathan Sarna, widely accepted as the world's leading authority on American Jewish history, has also praised the book , (5) the book won two book prizes, including the Journal of the American Revolution Book-of-the-Year Award. |
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::These latter three points are antecedent to my main point: the Misplaced Pages entry *only* refers to two scholars who are highly critical of my theory (one of whom self-publishes books and has no graduate training in history), while not mentioning *any* of the scholars who are more amenable to it. Readers of this entry could easily draw the mistaken impression that my theory has only elicited negative reactions when in fact the reaction is mixed, with more senior scholars proving more amenable. ] (]) 19:36, 26 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::You know more about Hamilton than I do, but in my opinion all of this debate only distracts from the main point of this article, which is encyclopedic information about Alexander Hamilton. I made an that cut down and reorganized the Judaism section into {{alink|Faith}}. {{u|Porwancher}} and {{u|Antiok 1pie}}, does that work for you two? ] (]) 20:36, 27 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::Yes, I wholly agree and support your edits. This Misplaced Pages entry is not the proper place to litigate the issue. ] (]) 20:43, 27 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::{{Resolved mark}} ] (]) 01:55, 5 January 2023 (UTC) |
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In the intro, too... just calling him a genius is insubstantial, without even him backing it up, and, also, coming after AH agreeing to his own demise makes 'genius' sound bizarre... I think it should be removed, possibly to some other section with quotes about AH, as it seems extraneous (non-neutral as well, although quotes are treated differently), and repetitive too (a lot of insubstantial 'geniuses' in the intro, makes Paul Johnson sound like some cultish fan...) ] (]) 03:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 25 December 2022 == |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2024 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Alexander Hamilton|answered=yes}} |
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Footnote 20 to the sentence: "Alexander supplemented his education with a family library of 34 books" should reference page 24 of Chernow's biography of Hamilton, not 34; 34 books as referenced on page 24. ] (]) 14:02, 25 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 14:15, 25 December 2022 (UTC) |
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{{edit semi-protected|Alexander Hamilton|answered=yes}} |
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== edit request == |
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I suggest you either delete: "The consensus of mainstream scholars and historians who have addressed the underlying question of whether Lavien was Jewish, such as Ron Chernow, is that the assertion is not credible." OR substitute with something like: "Mainstream scholars are divided on the question of The foregoing statement is not accurate. I wrote ''The Jewish World of Alexander Hamilton'', which is cited in the notes and which argues that there is a probabilistic case that Hamilton and Lavien had a Jewish identity. Numerous leading scholars have endorsed the book's findings. Professor Jonathan Sarna, the world's leading authority on American Jewish history, described the research as "remarkable." Professor Stephen Knott, formerly of the University of Virginia, described it as "truly a pathbreaking work." Professor Stephen Whitfield, of Brandeis University, described it as "ingenious." Pulitzer Prize winning scholar and Harvard professor Annette Gordon Reed described it as “provocative and intriguing.” The book was published by Princeton University Press and won the Journal of the American Revolution Book-of-the-Year Award. It is simply not accurate for Misplaced Pages to dismiss the idea as a fringe theory. To be sure, it would be inaccurate to say there's now consensus that Hamilton likely was Jewish. But it is equally inaccurate to say that there's consensus he was not. The basis for the foregoing statement in Misplaced Pages is a short passage in Chernow's book. But Chernow made no special study of the topic whereas I dedicated an entire peer-reviewed book to it. It makes little sense to imply or suggest that his book refutes my findings when Chernow's book was written nearly twenty years earlier and thus did not engage my findings nor look at the reams of evidence from the Caribbean that I surfaced. ] (]) 01:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
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{{request edit|A}} |
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I have a conflict of interest, of course, but I would ask an editor to revise the Misplaced Pages article, which one-sidedly depicts my research on Hamilton's Jewish origins by only making reference to two critics (neither of whom has a PhD in the field) while neglecting the established scholars who have widely accepted the book's findings. The Misplaced Pages page could simply suggest that Porwancher's theory is controversial with a number of established scholars accepting it and others disputing it. |
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:{{not done}}:<!-- Template:ESp --> The article already acknowledges your book. Without having read your book, this sounds to me like you want your view to be more prominently considered without any other sources. ] (]) 13:51, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The two critics are: (1) Michael Newton, who was not actually responding to my book (as mine came out six years after his self-published book did), and (2) Mara Cohen Ioannides, an instructor (she is erroneously identified as a professor in the Wiki article) who published an H-Net review that was roundly debunked here: https://networks.h-net.org/node/8585/reviews/10784192/cohen-ioannides-porwancher-jewish-world-alexander-hamilton |
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::{{u|Ultraodan}}, the IP makes a good point in that a full on-topic peer-reviewed book written decades after another cited work should change a word or two in the sentence which includes "...not credible". The IP should list some of their best sources from the book to strengthen the case for the requested change, and/or consider becoming a Misplaced Pages editor themselves to both learn and climb the ropes here. Thanks. ] (]) 14:08, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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If the Misplaced Pages article continues to highlight these critics, it ought also to note reviews from established scholars who have accepted the book's findings, such as Stephen Whitfield, who called the book "ingenious" here: |
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:::hey can you please respond on ]. @] wanna get this over with ] (]) 14:09, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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https://www.jewishbookcouncil.org/book/the-jewish-world-of-alexander-hamilton |
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::::The only relevance your comment has to this discussion is that Jesus was Jewish, otherwise please read ], thanks. ] (]) 14:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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or Mike Fink, who called it "remarkable" here: |
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:::::how does jesus being jewish have anything to do with this alexander hamilton discussion, and i need consensus just say yes or no to the image i linked please. they don't me to get consensus then ghost me for no apparent reason. i know WP:CIVILITY but i've been ignored for hours now and i'm fed up. please just go to the jesus talk page so we can finish off the discussion. remsense left and i don't know what to do. ] (]) 14:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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https://www.providencejournal.com/story/opinion/columns/2021/08/26/opinion-fink-jewish-world-alexander-hamilton/8237924002/ |
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::::::{{u|HumansRightsIsCool}}, it doesn't, and neither does your jumping into this discussion to mention another. Nobody is ghosting you, Misplaced Pages conversations often go on for weeks, it's the lay of the land here. It's also Wikipolite to ping others editors when mentioning them by name ({{u|Remsense}}), even in a tangential way. Since you came here maybe you can comment on this interesting issue. An IP claiming to be an author of a prize-winning book is concerned that their work and its findings are being ignored within the page wording as well as that wording implying that this author's conclusions are not credible. In my opinion not enough authors challenge Misplaced Pages wording in such a way, and to do so is commendable as regards defense of their research subject and to care enough that Misplaced Pages gets it right. I hope that they return and continue this defense. ] (]) 15:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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or Nan Goodman who called it an "invaluable contribution" here: |
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https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14664658.2021.2015304 Porwancher (talk) 22:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC) ] (]) 16:58, 26 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:{{Resolved mark}} ] (]) 01:55, 5 January 2023 (UTC) |
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== Portrait change == |
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== Very minor edit request. == |
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Since this topic is semi-protected, I'm not capable of doing it myself. I would appreciate it if someone could link Hercules Mulligan, Revolutionary War/Early Military Career - second paragraph, to his corresponding article. Thanks. ] (]) 16:33, 6 January 2025 (UTC) |
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{{ping|Shoreranger|SwensonJ|Baguetteboing|KAYTRA}} I have mentioned you all here because of my editing of the portrait of Alexander Hamilton provided in the infobox. As the conversation on my talk page has gone to a standstill, I am opening a conversation on this article's talk page to discuss this in a more appropriate location than a user talk page and so that people who didn't read my previous edit summary can voice their opinions. I will not change the infobox portrait for now to not cause another edit war, but I firmly stand with the belief that the 1792 portrait is way better than both the 1802 and 1806 portraits. I am open to counter-arguments to this statement. ] ] (<sup>]</sup>) 22:57, 24 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{done}} ] (]) 21:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:The 1802 portrait is by a huge margin closer to the likeness of the ] bust Hamilton sat for, neither of which bear much resemblance to the 1792 portrait. ] (]) 18:03, 25 January 2023 (UTC) |
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::The image is massively cropped and depicts Hamilton out of office. Now I'm not going to change it yet but just be aware that I don't agree with your change (maybe unless you can find the full original portrait). ] (]) 21:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:::If what you mean by "out of office" is that the image depicts him after he was no longer the Secretary of the Treasury, I fail to see the significance. If it is a good likeness of him as an adult, what difference does it make? |
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::::You can find an image of the full portrait here, for what it's worth: |
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] |
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::: The Trumball portrait was also cropped as I recall. (]) 18:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC) |
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::::I still prefer the portrait that they use at the Treasury website or the portrait that's used on the $10 bill. ] (]) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::This?: https://home.treasury.gov/about/history/prior-secretaries/alexander-hamilton-1789-1795#main-content ] (]) 21:30, 27 January 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::I meant the one that you replaced. ] (]) 02:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::Are you okay with this image as a compromise? It's an official portrait of him as Secretary of the Treasury in 1792 and looks fairly close to your 1802 portrait. Most importantly, it looks official (and doesn't depict Hamilton in a depressed state after the death of his son in 1801). ] (]) 01:00, 29 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::No, not OK. |
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:::::::For one thing, that is the portrait I edited out in the first place. Secondly, as I have already contended, it i not "fairly close" to the 1802 portrait I substituted it with. Third, while I have provided a ink to another portrait directly from the Treasury website, there is conversely no indication that the portrait you suggest is "official" in any way. Finally, it is speculation as to what "state" Hamilton was in for the portrait I propose, but it is irrelevant anyway. ] (]) 14:10, 30 January 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::I actually meant the 1806 posthumous image of Hamilton, that is most frequently used when referring to Hamilton. The 1806 image is the one used for Alexander Hamilton articles on the Mount Vernon website, the National Park Service website, and the Department of the Interior website (you can scroll down Google forever after searching for "Alexander Hamilton" without seeing the 1802 portrait without having to try to find it on Google images). The Ron Chernow book on Hamilton, which inspired the play Hamilton, uses the 1806 portrait on its front-cover. As a counter-point, it appears that his portrait on the Treasury article doesn't use that 1806 image, but it is based on the 1806 portrait and based on the opinions on the Talk Page of the Frederick the Great article, using portraits done many years after their deaths is not ideal (the Treasury portrait was done 80 years after Hamilton's death). The 1806 image, however dramatized, was done just two years after Hamilton's death and is in my opinion, artistically most suitable to be the infobox photo, not the 1802 image. Being historically accurate is one thing, but the presentation or suitability of an image on an infobox representing an important historical person as Hamilton is another.<br><br>In comparison, even if your portrait is the most "accurate" portrait, your portrait is square (while the full sized one is low-res). The artist is not that great of a painter compared to the talented Turnbull. Your portrait depicts Hamilton ten years after leaving office and in the midst of depression following the death of his eldest son in a duel (according to on Facebook, "The portrait captured a pensive and somber Hamilton who was still mourning the death of his eldest son, Philip, who was killed in a duel in 1801 at age nineteen."), so I don't see how this is the most "realistic portrait", if you don't give any historian evidence. No websites uses the 1802 or 1792 portraits (Britannica and History uses the 1792 portrait, but they are encyclopedias with editors just like Misplaced Pages), compared to the 1806 portrait reused a thousand times when referring to Hamilton (the 1806 portrait is also exclusively used on many foreign language Wiki articles of Hamilton). Is your argument supported by multiple historians (I can't even find a book on Hamilton that uses that 1802 image)?<br><br>If this debate continues to go nowhere, then I'll have to request a third opinion. ] (]) 04:19, 31 January 2023 (UTC) |
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The current portrait being used to portray Hamilton at the top of the article is not Hamilton. The portrait was painted by John Trumbull two years after Hamilton's death, meaning that the portrait is merely what Trumbull remembers Hamilton looking like. There are many other contemporary portraits of Hamilton to choose from, some of which were also painted by Trumbull, that provide a much more accurate depiction of Hamilton particularly in his later years. Thank you for your consideration. UnbearableIsBad (talk) 02:44, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
In the intro, too... just calling him a genius is insubstantial, without even him backing it up, and, also, coming after AH agreeing to his own demise makes 'genius' sound bizarre... I think it should be removed, possibly to some other section with quotes about AH, as it seems extraneous (non-neutral as well, although quotes are treated differently), and repetitive too (a lot of insubstantial 'geniuses' in the intro, makes Paul Johnson sound like some cultish fan...) 92.18.124.187 (talk) 03:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
I suggest you either delete: "The consensus of mainstream scholars and historians who have addressed the underlying question of whether Lavien was Jewish, such as Ron Chernow, is that the assertion is not credible." OR substitute with something like: "Mainstream scholars are divided on the question of The foregoing statement is not accurate. I wrote The Jewish World of Alexander Hamilton, which is cited in the notes and which argues that there is a probabilistic case that Hamilton and Lavien had a Jewish identity. Numerous leading scholars have endorsed the book's findings. Professor Jonathan Sarna, the world's leading authority on American Jewish history, described the research as "remarkable." Professor Stephen Knott, formerly of the University of Virginia, described it as "truly a pathbreaking work." Professor Stephen Whitfield, of Brandeis University, described it as "ingenious." Pulitzer Prize winning scholar and Harvard professor Annette Gordon Reed described it as “provocative and intriguing.” The book was published by Princeton University Press and won the Journal of the American Revolution Book-of-the-Year Award. It is simply not accurate for Misplaced Pages to dismiss the idea as a fringe theory. To be sure, it would be inaccurate to say there's now consensus that Hamilton likely was Jewish. But it is equally inaccurate to say that there's consensus he was not. The basis for the foregoing statement in Misplaced Pages is a short passage in Chernow's book. But Chernow made no special study of the topic whereas I dedicated an entire peer-reviewed book to it. It makes little sense to imply or suggest that his book refutes my findings when Chernow's book was written nearly twenty years earlier and thus did not engage my findings nor look at the reams of evidence from the Caribbean that I surfaced. 2600:8800:1B02:F300:81F9:253:808E:893C (talk) 01:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Since this topic is semi-protected, I'm not capable of doing it myself. I would appreciate it if someone could link Hercules Mulligan, Revolutionary War/Early Military Career - second paragraph, to his corresponding article. Thanks. BruceHoudini (talk) 16:33, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
level-4 vital article is rated GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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Not done: The article already acknowledges your book. Without having read your book, this sounds to me like you want your view to be more prominently considered without any other sources. Ultraodan (talk) 13:51, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Done