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== NPOV tag == ==Legacy==
The article affirms that Giulio Clovio stated his Croatian identity. Can I have more details about this. --] (]) 10:07, 4 July 2012 (UTC)


Why do I have to search if everything is already in bibliography and references, aside from the talk page? It is well established fact that he signed himself mostly as Giulio Clovio Crovata.
Apparently, one more 'translation' of the Italian painter name. Avoiding to list references where this painter is exclusively listed as an Italian painter - yet another reason for the NPOV tag.


Bradley: "his customary signature (Crovato or Crovata) (was) adopted by him as a native of Croatia." page 18 His signatures and his contemporary Vasari already affirm that. ] (]) 19:32, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
Here is a few references mentioning Giorgio Clovio exclusively as the Italain painter , , , ,


Possibly, but other authoritative sources such as the Britannica affirms his Italian nationality.
As to the 'famous' tag 'Under Klović's bust, beside his name, is written the name of his homeland, which he always emphasized: Julio Clovio de Croatia.' - it's a nonsense. The tag was added much later (19th century) and not immediately after the painter's death.
Reporting the two nationalities and the relevant sources in support is the most equitable solution to the matter. --] (]) 17:28, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


Such statements have already been refuted in talk page. I don't know why Britannica should be "authoritative" source for Giulio Clovio - it doesn't explain how is Giulio Clovio Italian and is contradicting itself. It affirms he was born in Croatia, does this mean he is Italian from Croatia? It is an encyclopedia, therefore one short reference on Giulio Clovio by dubious author cannot refute whole Bradley's 400 pages book analysing solely Giulio Clovio and his work. (Britannica claimed that Charlmeagne was the first Holy Roman Emperor). Not only that, but the artist which is in question claimed for himself that he is Croatian, and is therefore futile to further discuss his nationality.
During his lifetime (1498–1578) there was no Croatia and the Clovio's birthplace could be only in Hungary. It is ok to mention today's name of his birtplace, but original names coming from that time shall be used on the first place.--] 23:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


It is already mentioned in the article that (because of his lifetime spent in Italy) he is proclaimed (mostly in encyclopedias and other "instant information" reference literature) as Italian which is refuted by Giulio Clovio himself when he signs himself as "Crovata." If you can find sources which claim that he is born in Italy, and that he claimed for/signed himself as "Italiano" I will gladly change the article myself. ] (]) 20:10, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
:Sorry, I only read your post here afterwards. Anyways, you claim I vandalized the article by "deleting sources". Actually, you have not sourced anything. All you did was post a lot of external links. Until you actually source your info, you can't make such significant claims. Now, on the other hand '''you''' have vandalized the article by deleting my sourced info. Until you can prove that my info is wrong (which you can't with little passing references to Italianism) you can't remove it. Cheers. --] 04:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


: It looks like a few things need to be mentioned:
::Now, I sourced a lot. You did not have anything that is not a link written by someone in Croatia and today. I posted the links and the books that are not supporting the name as given here (Klovic). The links and books are not written in Itally which gives them an aura of neutrality and credibility. I found just speculations that his name might be Glovicic or Glovischich. Apparently another political propaganda with 'properly' naming great Italian people. Also, the books and links emphasized his Macedonian origins. But all references are listing him exclusively as an Italian painter - like it or not.--] 02:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
:* The field you're haggling about is called "Nationality". The meaning of that word in English isn't the same as ''nacionalnost'' or ''narodnost'' in Croatian; it's no less common to treat it as equivalent to ''državljanstvo''.
:* He is described as an Italian painter by Britannica, which is not necessarily indicative of his ethnicity, rather they could have legitimately simply meant he was naturalized in Italy, which he apparently was.
:* It's not invalid to reference another encyclopedia - it's a tertiary source, which is fine. If secondary sources contradict tertiary sources, they take precedence, but it should be spelled out.
:* Infoboxes sometimes suck, horribly - trying to provide this information in the infobox here has obviously been most unhelpful.
: --] (]) 08:25, 23 July 2012 (UTC)


1.) I'm well acquianted with terms "nationality" and "ethnicity" in English language, thank you. In this case I think nationality in '''both''' meanings (Citizenship, state which he comes from - Croatia; and membership to the Croatian nation) is undoubtedly Croatian.
== Giulio Clovio Croata nonsense ==


2.) There was no official state called "Italy" in the 16th century as far as i know, therefore his nationality = citizenship cannot be "Italian". There was an idea of Italy and Italian people of course (the goal of Machiavelli's book "The Prince" is to unite "enslaved" Italian people). His nationality could be Italian in the sense of belonging to Italian people (not citizenship), but Giulio Clovio expressed his feelings during his lifetime mostly as "Crovato" and didn't affiliate himself with any of the Italian states or Italian people.
Clovio was nicknamed as ''Grovato'' by some of his contemporaries - which might be seen as a mutilated word ''Croata''. Also, some of his paintings he really signed by ''Macedo''. No proof that he ever claimed to be a Croat.--] 00:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


3.) I don't know how you would arrange the article - it is mentioned that (because of his lifetime spent in Italy) he is mentioned as "Italian" in encyclopedias, and Britannica is sourced in the article. If you have ideas (or anyone else) for some new edits or changes, I would gladly hear it and edit the article, but not if edits are incorrect. ] (]) 11:32, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
:You haven't proved any of this. In fact, all you have done is delete my sources. You say there is no proof that he ever claimed to be a Croat. I have at least one source which says he did. However, you have shown exactly '''zero''' proof in which he claimed to be an Italian. Stop vandalizing the article and cite sources if you want changes to be made. --] 19:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


: I think it's completely nonsensical to pretend that the Italian ethnonym/toponym is completely inapplicable in the 1500s. You're making exactly the same mistake as Silvio did with the Croatian toponym as described at ], except that this idea is probably insulting to the Italians, while that one was to the Croatians. Please, let's just drop this bizarre double standard. Klović affiliated practically exclusively with Italy and the Italians between the age of 28 and his death in Rome at the age of 52, so it's not unreasonable to describe him as an Italian painter. This is also not at all exclusive to Italy - Croatia does the same to ]. --] (]) 13:25, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
== False reference ==


If I didn't read this, I wouldn't believe you said it. How did Giulio Clovio affiliate himself with Italians? By living and working in Italy? Then Ivan Lučić (Giovanni Lucio, spent last 20 years of his life in Rome), Stjepan Gradić and other notable Slavs from Dubrovnik and Dalmatia are also Italians? Is ] American (what his grandson claims) since he spent last 17 years of his life in the USA, the country that he hated to live in? I don't understand what you are trying to say. Julije Klović was born in Croatia and stated his identity, and most of his life he spent in Italy, but that doesn't make his nationality (belonging to people) Italian. Italian ethnonym is applicable to Italian people, I said it is (you can say that Leonardo da Vinci is Italian), but Klović/Clovio never affiliated himself with Italian people.
Please, check the validity of claims you are trying to sell here cheap. Your reference/link openly claims this nonsense:


Modern citizenships didn't exist then, so when the article states "nationality" it is in the sense of where the artists comes from, and which people does he view as his own. ] (]) 14:41, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
''Giorgio Vasari, a friend of Klović's wrote his biography. In his second edition of biographies of famous artists (Le Vite, 1568), Giorgi notes that the famous minaturist war born in the Province of Schiavonia or Coruatia (Croatia) in a town called Grisone in the Modruša Diocese (diocesi di Madrucci).''


Philosopher12, from my perspective the concept of nationality (either Italian or Croatian) is totally inapplicable in this case. It exists (yes, unfortunately this does exist) a tendency in modern Croatian historiography to extend the concept of Croatian nationality and ethnicity to areas of Romance culture and to periods well before the beginning of the modern concept of nationality.
The same book (Le Vite, 1568) is fully reprinted and available today as:
Whatever is the approach this does not apply to Giulio Clovio. I believe the actual reference to the nationality should be removed or alternatively both nationality should be reported (this would be however just an horrible compromise).
Joy, concerning ] I do not contest that those people were ethnically Slavs. But they were from Dalmatia, not from Croatia. There is a cultural specificity in the area of Romance culture from that part of Europe that from some reasons some contributors tend to forget
--] (]) 19:24, 23 July 2012 (UTC)


: I feel we're all making a set of monologues, but let's continue for a bit more... Klović apparenly permanently emigrated out of the Kingdom of Hungary and spent the rest of his life in Italy, blending in the way many other ''Schiavone'' like him, and made his best work there. To say that it's completely unacceptable to describe him as an "Italian painter" because you want to restrict the meaning of the adjective "affiliate" to a meaning of "renounce former nationality" which doesn't actually exist (to affiliate means simply to keep company with or to join in an affiliation) - is silly. On the other hand, it's also silly to avoid calling the Dalmatian Slavic subjects of Venice Croatian or Slavic just because they were Dalmatians - their cultural specificity is explained by linking to the article that explains the history of the Venetian Republic in Dalmatia, but that doesn't in any way override the simple fact that the ''Italians'' of that time had explicated their Slavic origin, often even in their names. Anyway, as I said before, the "nationality" field in the infobox only serves to muddle the water - let's just drop it. The lead section already nicely describes everything. If we don't have to put "Thracian" in ]' infobox, there's no need to do anything like that here, either. --] (]) 07:31, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
''Lives of the Artists (2 Volume Set) (Hardcover) by Giorgio Vasari, Peter Smith Publisher Inc. (June 1993) ISBN: 0844666785''
::Right. Just remember that under our biographical guidelines, if Clovio had emigrated to the USA at the same age we would be unable to describe him as Croatian in the <s>lead</s> first sentence in any way. I absolutely agree about the nationality bit in the infobox - I would say drop the whole box. For those joining recently, there is ''tons'' more on what sources say in various languages in the archives for this page, in fact there is almost nothing else. The only thing most editors here, now and in the past, are interested in is the few words describing his nationality/origins/ethnicity. Hardly anyone takes any interest in the actual man or his work. ] (]) 11:24, 24 July 2012 (UTC)


Since you are experts on this question, feel free to delete nationality from the infobox.] (]) 14:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Even from the book Contents it is clear that Vasari did not write the Clovio's biography. The book Contents is visible .


::It is also wrong "Legacy" chapter. Vasari wrote he was born in "Crovazia" into a family from "Macedonia": http://it.wikisource.org/Le_vite_de'_pi%C3%B9_eccellenti_pittori,_scultori_e_architettori_(1568)/Don_Giulio_Clovio
Once again - please, refrain from removing the links and references I've provided!--] 02:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
--] (]) 13:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


:::Also Bradley (falsely used in the article) reports "Macedonian": http://books.google.it/books?id=xADJ2x45iJAC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=%22Giulio+Clovio%22+macedonian&source=bl&ots=FBvv46aY8Y&sig=5phPUuMX71PlfY-Vp5tu0kpOsxA&hl=it&sa=X&ei=vWwRULroIcb1sgaRxoG4DQ&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Giulio%20Clovio%22%20macedonian&f=false --] (]) 16:24, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
:Again, a non-Croatian source (as well as many others) verifies that he is in Vasari's book, and he appears to be located in the third part. That may be an abridged version you are looking at, or Klović's biographical notes may not form a separate section. Whatever the case, Klović is definately in the book, as it is one of the main sources of info we have about his life.


::::Same for Visani: http://books.google.it/books?ei=Xm8RUKK-BcfOswa6y4FY&hl=it&id=XAPWAAAAMAAJ&dq=visani+maria+clovio&q=macedonia#search_anchor --] (]) 16:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
:Also, I have not removed any of your sources or links. Only you have done this. I have even had the common courtesy to incorporate the few sourced parts of your edits into the article. --] 17:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
::''Klović's given name was Juraj Klović'' - this is nonsense - due to the fact that it is not confirmed by any reliable source. ''He took on the Italianized version his Croatian/Slavic name Giulio Clovio after his fellow artist Giulio Romano when he entered the religious order.'' - no source for this claim also. ''His exact ethnicity is unknown, but he was allegedly also called Macedo, or Macedone, to connect him with his supposed Macedonian ancestry.'' - he used to sign his works as Macedo or Il Macedone - no one says 'unknown' or 'supposed'. And finally your 'non-Croatian source' is badly beaten by and . Looks like you like forgeries, don't you?--] 21:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
:::That link points to the 1550 Florence edition. That was the first edition. This article specifically states that he was in the ''second edition'' of 1568. Also, Misplaced Pages itself is not a valid source. So, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop insulting me and give some respect. I have sourced that he changed his name to the Italianized version. The source is a little out of place, so I can easily remedy that. As to '''reliable sources''', we'll have to get a third party to decide that. You obviously don't respect any of my sources, so you're not in a position to adequately judge them.


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
:::Also, sites claim that he was called ''Macedone'', but they have not provided any direct instances only vague assertions. You have demanded of me rigourous proof of everything, but you do not rigousously proven anything yourself. Show where he signed as Macedone, as I have already shown his tomb says he was a Croatian painter. --] 23:07, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Which article 'specifically states that he was in the ''second edition'' of 1568'??? --] 21:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


I have just modified 4 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
:::::'''This one''' (that we are editting) does. ''The renowned Giorgio Vasari, the first art critic of the modern world, considered Klović to be the greatest miniaturist of the time and included him within his famed artists' biographies (second edition, 1568).'' You may have missed this section as you repeatedly deleted it. Therefore, to disprove my sources, you'll have to at least find the ''actual'' text. --] 00:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
*Added {{tlx|dead link}} tag to http://wwar.com/masters/c/clovio-giorgio_giulio.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071121154812/http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Giorgio_Giulio_Clovio to http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Giorgio_Giulio_Clovio
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060509030353/http://biblio.cribecu.sns.it/cgi-bin/vasari/Vasari-all?code_f=print_page&work=le_vite&volume_n=6&page_n=213 to http://biblio.cribecu.sns.it/cgi-bin/vasari/Vasari-all?code_f=print_page&work=le_vite&volume_n=6&page_n=213
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20031219124203/http://www.hnb.hr/numiz/zla-sre/klovic/eklovic.htm to http://www.hnb.hr/numiz/zla-sre/klovic/eklovic.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927225902/http://www.posta.hr/main.aspx?id=193&idmarke=312 to http://www.posta.hr/main.aspx?id=193&idmarke=312


When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
::::::So, self-referencing. Are you serious at all????--] 16:30, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
:::::::Please. I have already referenced that he is in Vasari's text. You are the one using incorrect info to try to show my sources are inaccurate. I am not self-referencing - you simply are't bothering to read the article. --] 16:35, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 01:50, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
== Finally ==

I found proper Italian references confirming that Vasari wrote about Clovio. Tried to force this ] to give us the correct reference i.e. the primary source which ] escaped regularly. The reason is here

For those who can read Italian, Vasari says clearly: "della famiglia de' Clovi, fussero venuti di Macedonia, et il nome suo al battesimo fu Giorgio Iulio" i.e. Clovio's name at baptism was Giorgio Iulio, his family name was Clovi and he is a Macedonian. Therefore, insisting on Juraj Julije Klovic is baseless, doubting into his Macedonian origins is nonsense.

Searching the web I found that 'Giulio Clovio Croata' comes from the Croatians sites and a few of them citing the Croatian sources. All other are using exclusively Giorgio Giulio Clovio, Giulio Clovio, or Giorgio Clovio. So, the claim 'known worldwide as Giulio Clovio Croata,' is yet another (nacionalistic) nonsense that simply pollutes this article.--] 17:11, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

:His usual name in English is Giulio Clovio, as used by the British Library etc; the article should be renamed as this. ] 18:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
::Agreed.--] 19:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

{{{result|The result of the debate was}}} '''PAGE MOVED''' per discussion below. I made this decision based on demonstration that Giulio Clovio is the most common name in English language sources, which is the deciding factor per ]. -]<sup>(])</sup> 19:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
== Requested move ==
] → ] — As per Vasari, at baptism, Clovio's name was Giorgio Iulio, his family name was Clovi and he was a Macedonian. There is no valid reference that this artist ever used 'Juraj Julije Klović' nor any of his contemporaries ever mentioned this 'translated' name. ] 20:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

===Survey===
:''Add &nbsp;<tt><big><nowiki># '''Support'''</nowiki></big></tt>&nbsp; or &nbsp;<tt><big><nowiki># '''Oppose'''</nowiki></big></tt>&nbsp; on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>.''

====Survey - Support votes====
#'''Support''' - as the nominator.--] 02:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - apart from the reasons above, he is a well-known artist who I have always seen called Clovio in English-languages books, museums etc. Until I saw his entry here, and although I was well aware he came from what is now Croatia, I had never seen the Croatian version of his name. In accordance with the Misplaced Pages policy on names, the Italian version should be used, as being the most commonly used in English (for example by the ], London and the ], New York - they both use "Giulio Clovio"). What he called himself, or what his contemporaries called him, is not really relevant from the point of view of Misplaced Pages policy on naming.] 01:29, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - as Johnbod has noted, Clovio is by far the most commonly name used in English language; and it's not really relevant which was his ethnicity, but which is the most commonly used, and there is little doubt regarding this.--] 16:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
#'''Support''', per Johnbod and Aldux. How he is known in English is most important, the fact that he is rarely if ever known by the current title a strong secondary reason. ] 17:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
#'''Support''', most common name as per ] but I would bolden the full South Slavic name too in the intro. This does not mean I consider him ''Italian''. ]<sup>]</sup> 14:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. To quote from ]: ''Use the name(s) and terminology that the individual or organization themselves use.'' That pretty much decides it in favor of Clovio, as I understand that he signed his name like this and was referred by this name by his contemporaries. This does not mean that Clovio/Klović was in fact Italian, so let's not discuss what is not the issue here. ] 18:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' The 'Clovio' name has a clear historic justification. 'Klovic' - I wouldn't pay for it a red cent.--] 01:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' per ], Johnbod, Aldux, Gene Nygaard, Asterion & GregorB. - ] 15:13, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

====Survey - Oppose votes====
#'''Oppose''' born, raised there, no evidence of ever admittng to being an Italian. ] 11:41, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' Agreed. He is a Croat who was also known under italian name, his first name was Croat and why would somebody wanted to change that? Redirect function works perfectly well when you ask for "Giulio Clovio". ] 16:07, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' His croatdom is well established, and the fact that he is perhaps better known (although this is HIGHLY debatable) as "Guilio Clovio" doesn't mean his proper name should be thrown out the window. Besides, I feel this rename was started in bad faith and would not accept it based on 5 votes supporting it. --] 23:00, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
#:DrGonzo, the point here is not whether the guy was Croatian or not (I do believe the former for a fact), but whether the most commonly used name in English language is Giulio Clovio. I think that ] is a very similar example, the article title not being the same as his birth name. Regards, ]<sup>]</sup> 23:34, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
#::El Greco is not comparable - El Greco is a nickname, denoting his nationality (his real name was Doménicos Theotocópoulos). I don't understand why we couldn't simply have a redirect from "Giulio Clovio" to the proper article entitled "Juraj Julije Klovic". Call me paranoid, but I believe there is some nationalist/irredentist agenda behind this rename... Oh, one more thing - there are literally thousands of streets, squares, buildings etc. named after Juraj Klovic in Croatia (some of the finest galleries too), and he is an important part of Croatian national heritage. I have NEVER heard him called Giulio Clovio here, ever. So does that count for anything then? --] 23:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
#:::Of course he is rightly called Klovic in Croatia, and that is his article title in the Croatian WP. But he is called Clovio in English, and this is the English WP. Are you saying the Italian WP should also call their article Klovic? This is basic stuff! I have many times reverted to keep him described as "Croatian", but his origin does not give Croatia the right to dictate to the rest of the world what he is called, when was unknown when he left, and became famous in Italy as Clovio. ] 01:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
#::::Just for the record, the article is under Klovic in the ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 02:01, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
#:::::Yes - it is there so, and I've put a note suggesting the name change. I would request the name change equally there like here - if not being limited by the lack od knowledge of Italian language.--] 02:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
#::::::Giorgio Orsini, could I request, as a fellow anglophone, that you represent for our language a little better than by barging into the Italian Misplaced Pages with "What's matter with you people over there?" Not only is it unspeakably rude, it's not even correct English. I'm embarassed by that note, and if I knew Italian, I would go apologize on your behalf, certain that you were typing during an uncharacteristic lapse of judgement. Please be more careful in the future. -]<sup>(])</sup> 19:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. Official language in Croatia was Latin. He worked in Italy. I think that explains everything... I won't bother to comment those Italian attacks on croatian heritage, although I find them very insulting, nor will I comment that posts that says that there were no Croatia, because anybody can see that's not true. -- ] 12:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. Official language in Croatia was Latin. To calm those who deny Croatia at those times, I'll remind him than on Appeninne peninsula there was no Italy, but the Republic of Venice, Grand Duchy of Tuscany, Papal States etc.. Gonzo is not paranoid. There is an Italian nationalist-irredentist offensive on en.wiki, hidden behind the renaming of various Croatian names/surnames and toponyms (I've found similar cases with other South Slavic peoples). ] 12:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

===Discussion===
:''Add any additional comments:''

His entry in the Getty Union List of Artist Names, which is the most up-to-date and reputable database of these reads:

Clovio, Giulio (Croatian illuminator, 1498-1578, active in Italy)

This is authoritative regarding both name and nationality.

] 18:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I just looked at very first original version of the article, from 2004, which, I think puts the question of commonest-used name rather well (my bolds):

''Juraj Julije Klović (Grižane, 1498 - 1578, Rome - Roma Rim) '''Throughout the world known by the name of Giulio Clovio''', Klović is one of the most illustrious Croats. Renown Giorgio Vasari, first Art critic of the modern world, considered Klović to be the ....''
] 23:34, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

==== Simple tests ====

'''Google Print test'''
* Searching for : '''50''' books in English published since 1990.
* Searching for : '''22''' books in English.
* Searching for : '''0''' books in English.<br/>Searching for : '''0''' books in English.
* Searching for : '''2''' books in English.

'''Google Scholar test'''
* Searching for : '''103''' results in English.
* Searching for : '''10''' results in English.
* Searching for : '''1''' result in English.<br/>Searching for : '''1''' result in English (the same one as before).
* Searching for : '''2''' results in English (including the same one as before).

'''Amazon.com test'''
* Searching for : '''78''' books in English.
* Searching for : '''6''' books in English.
* Searching for : '''0''' book in English.<br/>Searching for : '''1''' book in English using ''Juraj Julije Klović''.
* Searching for : '''0''' books in English (1 in Croatian).<br/>Searching for " ": '''4''' books in English using ''Julije Klović'' (travel guides to Croatia & Botswana).

''The New York Times'':
* Searching for " ": '''8''' results.
* Searching for " ": '''0''' results.
* Searching for " ": '''0''' results.<br />Searching for " ": '''0''' results.
* Searching for " ": '''0''' results.

Best regards, ] 00:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:] many thanks for this test. I hope that some people might find this useful - in order to drop their baseless opposition to the article name change.--] 03:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

==== On canvassing ====

'''Note for closing admin''': There has been ] on this RQM survey. ]<sup>]</sup> 15:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
:'''Further note''': Among these that were contacted in the canvassing by the anon. is one of the voters, ]. For completeness, there was also a similar aborted attempt by {{user|GiorgioOrsini}}, but after a warning he interrupted. At the moment, none of those contacted by the latter user have voted.--] 16:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
::Don't really see your point. Is canvassing somehow illegal on Misplaced Pages? Oh, and Aldux, I would appreciate it if you DIDN't delete messages on my talk page. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Dr.Gonzo&diff=97742391&oldid=97668939
::I don't understand what you were trying to achieve. --] 23:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
:::This is very easy to explain: votestacking is a violation of ], and an attempt to disrupt the regular going of the poll. For this I have to ask the closing admin not to take in account the votes of both ] and ].--] 01:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
::::What is violated when somebody informs you there is something wrong with some page? Besaides the votestaking, doesn't any of the wikipedians have the right to say what he/she means?<br/>--] 20:24, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

::::Like I said, this vote was started in bad faith, and regardless of canvassing, it should be scrapped altogether. --] 01:33, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::None of that matters. The only important thing is: what's the most ] for the article's subject? From the above, it appears that Giulio Clovio is the far more common name in English language sources, therefore the Misplaced Pages article should be titled Guilio Clovio, per our naming conventions.
:::::Furthermore, I would remind editors to refrain from speculating about one another's "bad faith"; it turns out that such speculation does not lead to solutions. Also, regarding canvassing, I would suggest that the appropriate way to bring more voices to a discussion such as this would be to post notes on appropriate article and project talk pages, rather than cross-posting to specific user talk pages. -]<sup>(])</sup> 19:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->

== Nationality ==
These references regarding Klović/Clovio by GiorgioOrsini simply aren't adequate to declare him Italian. The references are anything but rigorous. Klović/Clovio ''is'' Italian in the sense that he worked in Italy. But he is Croatian first and foremost because it was his homeland and the site of his upbringing (first language, family, etc.). As mentioned above the Getty Union List of Artist Names has this: "Clovio, Giulio (Croatian illuminator, 1498-1578, active in Italy)". This is a respectable, neutral site whose focus is on confusing situations such as these. --] 21:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
:His nationality not in question nor it can be claimed using any rational reason. From the today's point of view i.e. the contemporary definition of the nationality - Clovio was a Hungarian or/and Venetian, not a Croat. As a state, Croatia that time did not extst at all. Here, he is mentioned just as an Italian Renaissance painter and miniaturist - as it can be seen from the references. Also, be advised not to put the pseudo historical claim about never existed Croatia-Hungary 'personal union'.--] 04:24, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Pseudo historical claim? What was kingdom of two Sicilies during the sixteen century, when it's kings were Habsbourgs? Part of Spain or Austria? Croatia had its own parliment and other sign's of its statehood, no matter that its kings were not Croats.<br/>
Second he was born in Modruš diocese, which is in modern central Croatia (Lika, Gorski Kotor and Rijeka) which was never part of Venice. How could he be Italian just based on a fact that he worked in petty Italian kingdoms (Italy did not exist at that time, remember:)<br/>
] 5:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
:Here, the ''Italian Renaissance painter'' is commonly accepted term that marks the medieval Italy (common name for the Papal State, Genoese and Venitan Republics) and a well-known period and place in the European art history (Italian Renaissance). Clovio is not born in modern Croatia - rather was born in Hungary of that time. As to the 'personal union' and the 'Croatian parliament' of that time - take a course in the late medieval history of the Hungarian kingdom. As to the Venitian republic - Clovio was her citizen and ''Giulio Clovio'' was the legal painter name.--] 02:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Take a course? Please do. There is a very good history course in University in Zagreb. Would you like a link?:)<br/>
There is a difference between this to notions which you mentioned. Italy as a geografical therm (apenines peninsula) and Italy as a modern state. Same goes for Hungary. Modern state of Hungary is much smaller then the acient medieval Croato-Hungarian kingdom. Klović lived with Croatian people (not Italian, or Hungarian) and he was raised as a Croat...<br/>
--] 20:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
::GiorgioOrsini, there is absolutely no reason to be dismissive of other users' views. I would also appreciate if no further reverts take place till the survey ends. Thanks, ]<sup>]</sup> 04:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

:::Thanks for the advice. I used to respect only those pieces of advice bringing to me an effective knowledge. The above one is not of that type.--] 03:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
::::Giorgio Orsini (or Juraj Dalmatinac in Croatian) it is little bit odd for someone who grow up in another continent (you are from USA right?) to judge about "effective knowledge" of somebody who lives few thousands of kilometres away. And we realy have a great historical study here, you should try it
::::--] 22:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

==Comment on the nationality debate==
''Note: I was directed to this page by the anonymous user who was spamming users to come here, so I will not be participating in the above vote, as it would be "improper".''

First of all, to GiorgioOrsini, your above argument is not valid (i.e he's not Croatian because at the time it was part of Hungary). By your logic, Klovic/Clovio cannot be called Italian, because Italy did not exist at the time - he would be called Venetian since he became a citizen of Venice. However, if I was to vote in the above requested move, I would support the name change to "Giulio Clovio". "Clovio" is much more well known as his name in the English speaking world. But, it has been established that his ethnicity was ] - which brings me to my next point, that nationality and ethnicity are different things, and in the modern sense of the word, his nationality would be Italian, but his ethnicity would be Croat. I would suggest the title of the page be changed to '''"Giulio Clovio"''' and the lead sentence be changed to '''"Giorgio Giulio Clovio (1498–1578), ''(sometimes known as Juraj Julije Klović)'', was a Italian illuminator, miniaturist, and painter, of ] descent."''' I think most people could settle for this compromise.

Another thing I'd like to say is, too many people place too much importance on the ethnicity/nationality of historical figures like Klovic/Clovio, instead of focusing on the person's contribution to society. I mean, I've seen talk pages much longer than their article, and the only focus on the talk page was the person's origin (see ] for a good example, as it's now featured on ]. Anyway, I think what I've written above is a good compromise, and most people could settle for it. <font style="background:none" size="3">&mdash;]]</font> 03:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

:How about: '''"Giorgio Giulio Clovio''' (1498–1578), known in ] as '''Juraj Julije Klović''', was an illuminator, miniaturist, and painter, of ] origin, who worked in ]."

:- "descent" rather implies his parents came from Croatia, but not him. I note (recent edit summary to article) that Giorgio Orsini does not think an adjectival Croat or Italian before "illuminator" is a statement of nationality - but I'm sure many people take it to mean that. This phrasing removes that ambiguity, I think. ] 03:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

::I agree with this. User:Ivan Kricancic totally misses the fact that Clovio/Klović was born and lived in the Kingdom of Croatia until he was 18 (as confirmed by Vasari), apart from being an ethnic Croat. Croatia was never a part of Hungary before the 19th century, although certain texts will erroneously claim this to give a simpler, less exhaustive explanation of the region. User:Johnbod's intro is fair, and those who have a great deal of opposition are probably editting in bad faith, whether they are Croatian or Italian.

::I'd also like to say that it is not my intent to start edit wars, but it sets horrible precedent when Medieval and Renaissance Croats who (by necessity) worked abroad are unfairly labelled as the nationality of the country they worked in, without considering the wider picture. I have tried and I have offered to make compromises, but the Italian side has failed to make a single compromise in return. You may notice I have tried to expand the article with bits and pieces of info along the way, because I am getting just as tired of this edit war as anyone. --] 15:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
:::Yeah, Clovio considered himself being a Macedionian - not a Croat. Respect his own words, please.--] 03:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
:::I didn't miss the point - I knew he was born and raised in Croatia. But what I was trying to do was reach a compromise so there wouldn't be any edit warring on this article. And yes, I would also agree to ]'s re-phrasing of the intro, above. <font style="background:none" size="3">&mdash;]]</font> 15:37, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

::::Ok, I'll put it in now ] 16:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::Interesting, this is getting into denying (in any possible way)Klović's ties with Croatia and Croats, either by claiming he's Italian or Macedonian. Like 19th century slogan of <u>Italian irredentist propaganda</u> in Croatian provinces: "any name, any nationality, but Croat". Still, if he's Macedonian, he still wouldn't be Clovio, but Klović. ] 12:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::?? we have "of Croat origin" in the lead sentence, which is fair & accurate, I think ] 16:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::Please, avoid tagging me as ''Italian iredentist''. Bear in mind that ''Klović'' name is a primitive translation of his orignal name (Clovi). A man being of the Macedonian origins might be equaly Greek or Slav. There is no single document coming from the times of Clovio's life and work confirming that Clovio ever used ''Klović'' name, nor any public document (taxation, birth certificate, baptismal or death record) contains the ''Klović'' name, nor any of his contemporaries ever mentioned him under this fake ''Klović'' name.--] 16:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Why is Klović a fake name? And Clovi his original? Clovi is just a name under which he was know in Venice, Florence and Rome... --] 18:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

:Saying that ''Giorgio Giulio Clovio (1498–1578), was an Italian Renaissance illuminator, miniaturist, and painter'' - has nothing to do with Clovio's supposed nationality. The idea of nationality used today is simply not applicable to the people lived long ago. The ''Italian Renaissance illuminator'' simply locates Clovio's life and work in an history of art period of the European culture. Also, Clovio considered himself being a Macedonian (because of his ethnic background) and, therefore, used to sign his works as ''Il Macedo''.--] 03:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::Yes, it ignores compleatly his Croatian sides of character (early years of life, education, etc) and defines him soley throught the place of his work (appenine peninsula) and his macedone roots. Nothing to do with nationality at all. --] 18:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

::Actually, saying that ''Giorgio Giulio Clovio (1498–1578), was an Italian Renaissance illuminator, miniaturist, and painter'' - does have to do with his "supposed" nationality. If it just said "''Giorgio Giulio Clovio (1498–1578), was an Renaissance illuminator, miniaturist, and painter''", then it would have nothing to do with his nationality. Whether or not the Italian Renaissance differed from the Renaissance in other parts of Europe is irrelevant - if the lead section states "Italian Renaissance illuminator", people are going to assume it means "an Italian painter from the Renaissance period", especially if you don't link "Italian renaissance" (i.e ]). However, I wouldn't object if you changed the lead sentence to "'''''Giorgio Giulio Clovio''' (1498–1578) (sometimes known as '''Juraj Julije Klović'''), was an illuminator, miniaturist, and painter during the ] period.''" <font style="background:none" size="3">&mdash;]]</font> 06:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:::This is exactly why I added " He was the greatest illuminator of the Italian High Renaissance" when I put in my new version. A leading adjective is ambiguous, and it is disingenuous of you to pretend otherwise, Giorgio. It is fine as it is. ] 19:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

== On his ''real'' name ==

The discussions above lead nowhere. What is needed are ] ] that we can cite, so that we can write something along the lines of: ''Art historians like Smith, Jones and Bond consider that his actual name was Whatever <sup>ref ref ref</sup>, while the genealogist Phillips concluded that this name was Whatever <sup>ref</sup>.''

Our own especulations and interpretations of primary sources are ], which may be all very interesnting but have no place in Misplaced Pages. - Best regards, ] 20:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

:It was already done here --] 03:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

::lol I hadn't read the article beyond the introduction :-) I wrote the previous comment after seeing some comments posted a few hours ago about real & fake names, which made me assume the worst, sorry.
::I will give those references a proper format in a few moments. Thanks for pointing me there :-) Best regards, ] 04:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

== Again ==

For the Croatians editors

- here, the ''Italian Renaissance painter'' is commonly accepted term that marks the medieval Italy (common name for the Papal State, Genoese and Venitan Republics, Sicily, Tuscan Duchy) and a well-known period and place in the European art history (Italian Renaissance); I've provided nine English language reference supporting this fact;

- there was no ''Kingdom of Croatia'' that time; this is definitively forgery coming only from Croatia

- Clovio worked once for the Hungarian king, not in ''Lands of the Crown of St. Stephen''

- also, Clovio claimed only Macedonian origins which might be equal of Greek or Slav ethnicity; he was born in the place that is in today's Croatia and that fact is not hidden here

- I've respected the fact that Croatia honors this great painter; nothing wrong with that even though that has nothing to do with his biography--] 03:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

:The Kingdom of Croatia certainly existed. It is the reason why Croatia was represented by a ban, and a Sabor (parliament) of some form survived for most of its history. Clovio/Klović worked in the court of the Hungarian king for a few years, but he must have also worked/studied in Croatia for some time during his youth. It's just easier to lump these two together as the Crown Lands of St. Stephen. You have also not shown any primary sources about this Macedonian issue, and even your secondary sources are vague. How and when did he call himself Macedonian? "He did because a website says he did" is not good enough if it is just a vague, unexplained reference.
:''No one'' denies that the Kingdom of Croatia existed at this time. When Klović worked in Buda, Croatia and Hungary were still in union, but they soon fell under ] control. The Habsburgs also took on the title of Kings of Croatia, separate from their Hungarian title. --] 18:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

::Nonsense. Feudal Hungary did not have a parliament and it is far from true that a 'personal union' ever existed. See what says about Hungary. About his Macedionian origins, read Vasari

::He says clearly: "della famiglia de' Clovi, fussero venuti di Macedonia, et il nome suo al battesimo fu Giorgio Iulio" . Also there are paintings Clovio signed as ''Il Macedo''--] 20:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
:: Here is the picture Clovio signed as ''Il Macedo'' --] 20:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

:::Vasari should be treated as a ] only, requiring interpretation by modern scholars. What is needed is a modern reliable source argumenting that he was Macedonian. - Best regards, ] 20:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

::::Perhaps Feudal Hungary did not have a parliament. I have no idea. Croatia, on the other hand, ]. It was made up of various nobility and clergy for most of its history. Also, the ] article says nothing about Croatia, while the ] affirms that the union existed. Lastly, that painting is not signed as "Il Macedo". It is visibly, and clearly, signed as ''Dó Iulio clovio inventor''. --] 16:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

== Note ==

About Clovio's nationality

I'd rather accept the modern point of view, accepted on the West - nationality = citizenship. For sure, Clovio was subject of Venitian Republic - therefore, Italian painter in the broad sense - where 'Italian' attributes medieval Italy.

About Clovio's ethnic origins

Valid historic documents say that Clovio was an ethnic Macedonian. No clue Slav or Greek.

About ''Under Clovio's bust, beside his name, is written the name of his homeland: Pictor de Croatia (Painter from Croatia)'' - I simply would not buy it. Why and who wrote it - is a bizzare detail that has nothing to do with Clovio's life and work.

About ''Kingdom of Croatia''

The named 'Kingdom of Croatia' vanished after being conquered by Hungarians at the end of 12th century. The 'Kingdom of Croatia' was restored just as a Hungarian province in the year of 1862 - in order to appease nacionalistic tensions which were on rise after 1848 in Europe and Hungary. So, the claim that Clovio was born in 'Kingdom of Croatia' is nonsense.--] 18:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

:Barry - a suggestion; why not try this out on the ] or ] pages. They were born subjects of Venice and Britain respectively! ] 18:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

::Your comment is a plain nonsense. Most of Clovio's life and work took place in the medieval Italy (after his 18th year of age - to his death). You have at least 11 references (in the English and in the Italian languages) already confirming it here. About that time non-existent 'Kingdom of Croatia', please, read A.J.P.Taylor's book - The Habsburg Monarchy, 1809-1918 - in order to learn when was re-established the Kingdom fo Croatia and why.--] 18:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

::: There are several things which are wrong in your logic:) Let go through them one by one:
:::About Clovio nationality: You say that nationality=citizenship. Clovio was subject of Venetian republic and Venetian citizen. Venetian republic was abolished by Napoleon and at Congress in Viena it became part of Habsbourg Monarchy. So Habsbourg monarhy is it's legal soucessor, no? At that time Clovio(if he would have been alive, of course:) would became citizen of Habsbourg Monarhy, no? Venetian Republic was made from Dalmatia, Istria and Veneto. After Austro-Prussian war 1867 new kingdom of Italy got Veneto, not entire teritory of ex-Venetian Republic. So Habsbourg Monarhy (Austro-Hungarian empire after 1868) is still it's legal soucessor. Habsbourg Empire broke apart in 1918 and Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (later Yugoslavia) was one of it's succesors. Croatia is legal sucesor of that state. So by your logic he is Croat.
:::About kingdom of Croatia: Your arguments are the same as if you woud say that there is no Scotland. That it does not exist, because you can not find it on the map. From 1102 Croatia had its Parliment, ruler (ban), and always some sort of autonomy, no matter in which asociation it was. Please look more about Croatian history before you storm out with your opinion (google it out). Drvenik (birth place of Klović) is for the last 1300 years in Croatia.
:::.--] 19:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Barry, this is not a nonsense. Your comment: </br>
" I'd rather accept the modern point of view, accepted on the West - nationality = citizenship. For sure, Clovio was subject of Venitian Republic - therefore, Italian painter..."

- would make El Greco Italian, Ghandi and George Washington British, Kafka Austrian and so on. It is simply not tenable. You have completely removed all references to Croatia, which is blatent POV. Giorgio does not go this far. Of course all his mature work was done in Italy - this is not in dispute. The formula I am reverting to of the first sentence is balanced and accurate. I am getting fed up with this continual edit warring and may take matters further.
] 20:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

== Latest changes ==

* As to the Clovio's Croatian 'name' - no any reference that Clovio eve used that name or was ever known under that name during his life.
* Croatian 'origin' - respected that he was born in the place that belongs today's Croatia - his ethnicity was obviously Macedonian where there is no knowledge whether of the Slav or the Greek lineage
* Kingdom of Croatia ceased to exist at the end of 12th century - re-established as the Austro-Hungarian province under Kingdom of Croatia and Slavonia in the year of 1862. When Clovio was born, his place of birth belonged to Hungary.
* Claim to support by references the sentence ''However, not a single reference claiming Klović, or Glovichic name provides any valid legal document (birth, baptismal record, contract signature, tax document) confirming that Clovio ever used those names or were ever given to him.'' is nonsense. '''Simply the very references claiming this name do not provide any valid and verifiable source - only speculations or the plain claim.'''
--] 02:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

:To simplify the discussion, I copied GiorgioOrsini's four points under different headings, to see if we can solve these issues once and for all. - Regards, <small>the editor formerly known as Evv</small> ] 18:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

=== On Clovio's Croatian name ===

As to the Clovio's Croatian 'name' - no any reference that Clovio ever used that name or was ever known under that name during his life. --] 02:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

:Regarding this Croatian name/s, the article presents two kinds of clear facts:
:# Today he is known in Croatian language as ''Juraj Julije Klović''.
:#:::::Bear in mind that personal names are simply not translatable. Doing so means simply lack of respect of a man whose name you are 'translating' into other languages.--] 22:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
:# Certain authors speculate on "possible original Croatian names".
:The article merely states those facts, without asserting who's right and who's wrong, and letting the reader make his own mind on the issue. This is standard Misplaced Pages practice.

:If you want to mention in the article's body that those authors are wrong, or that he didn't have an "original Croatian name", you would have to bring a really good ] to back it up, to ensure that such mention complies with ] (especially ]). - Best regards, ] 21:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

::BarryMar, sometimes personal names are simply ''very'' translatable, and are translated on a daily basis, especially those from people who lived over 300 years ago.

::An example taken from this article: I guess that we all first heard about Clovio in relation with the ''Farnese Hours'', made for and named after ] (], ], ]).

::::::Your example is called '''transliteration''' and is not '''translation'''. Learn the very basic language notions, at first - before trying to teach others! Farnese remains in all languages Farnese as well Clovio is Clovio in all languages - and not Cloviere in French nor maybe Clovierer in German!!--] 01:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::::In Spanish, "Farnese" becomes "Farnesio". In any case, the paragraph below remains valid. - ] 02:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

::In any case, regardless of the translatability or not of the name, the simple fact remains that Croatians call him ''Juraj Julije Klović''. We're not passing judgement on their right to call him so, but merely mentioning this clear and verifiable fact, for which incontestable evidence is presented at ]. - Best regards, ] 23:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

:About removing Croatian 'name' from the article
:* This 'name' is invented i.e. meaningless name not used by Colvio or by his contemporaries ever, and therefore, this 'name' is of no biographical value here
:* This 'name' is not in use in the English speaking world nor any editors of the Clovio's biographical notes or biography saw it rational to include into the biographical text
:* Italian and Russian Wikipedias did not include this 'name'
:* However, to make Croatian nationalists happy, this 'name' is still mentioned later -as a sort of trivia knowledge - and there is no need to have it at the beginning of this article
:--] 03:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
:<small>The preceding comment by BarryMar was copied here from the "]" section bellow to simplify the discussion by keeping focus on each specific topic (his full original comment remains in the said section). - ] 06:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)</small>

::BarryMar, today's inhabitants of the region where he was born have choosed to call him ''Juraj Julije Klović'' in their own language, Croatian. As the sources presented in the article show, the Croatians sometimes use this form even when writing in English. This is a clear verifiable and already sourced fact, which I find interesting and worth mentioning in the article.
::I believe it should be included in the first paragraph, as it is in "my preferred version", so that readers can immediately make the connection between those two names (especially important for readers who came here after reading a Croatian text using this form).
::Let's try to gauge editors take on this simple issue, by means of a simple '''straw poll'''. - Regards, ] 06:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

::our reasoning for removing the Croatian name is totally flawed. Also, Misplaced Pages itself is not a valid reference. Even if, as you contend, the name has no historical basis, the fact that it is in standard use in Croatia and through Eastern Europe is enough to include it in the header. --] 19:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
::<small>The preceding comment by Thewanderer was copied here from the "]" section bellow to simplify the discussion by keeping focus on each specific topic (his full original comment remains in the said section). - ] 21:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)</small>


'''Straw poll:'''
*I agree to include it in the first paragraph. ] 06:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

=== On Clovio's origin ===

Croatian 'origin' - respected that he was born in the place that belongs today's Croatia - his ethnicity was obviously Macedonian where there is no knowledge whether of the Slav or the Greek lineage. --] 02:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

:Let's check the external links included in the article:
:* : "...by birth a Croat... He was called Macedo, or Macedone, to connect him with his supposed Macedonian ancestry."
:*''The Catholic Encyclopedia'' at : "b. at Grizani, on the coast of Croatia... His family appear to have come from Macedonia..."
:*''The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition'' at : "... also called Macedo or Il Macedone because of his Macedonian origin."

:Books:
:* : "Nacque costui nella provincia di Schiavonia, overo Crovazia, in una villa detta Grisone, nella diocesi di Madrucci, ancorché i suoi maggiori, della famiglia de' Clovi, fussero venuti di Macedonia..."
:*Bradley, John William: ''The Life and Works of Giorgio Giulio Clovio, Miniaturist: with notices of his contemporaries, and of the art of decoration in the Sixteenth Century'', London, 1891, p.17 & 20:
::p.17: "Giorgio Clovio... was by birth a Croatian." p.20: "The familiy seemed to have been tolerably well-to-do, for a Macedonian ancestry is alluded to as denoting a position of some consideration, possibly as nobles –at least as substantial cultivators of the soil. "Macedo" is one of the names by which Clovio's signature is frequently acompanied..."

:This hardly contitutes a clear consensus on his Macedonian ancestry. To reflect this ambiguity, the first paragraph using the text of the 1911 Britannica, to read: "He was also called ''Macedo'' or ''Il Macedone'' because of his supposed Macedonian ancestry." - Best regards, ] 20:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

::The fact that Clovio was born in a place that belongs today's Croatia - is fully respected. All the efforts above by Ev are just attempt to support his claim and not to grasp nonsense about his 'supposed' Macedonian origin. Nothing is supposed nor it was claimed by Vasari.--] 22:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

:BarryMar, I will make it more clear, using only some precise fragments from my post above:

:External links included in the article:
:*1911 Britannica: "...his '''supposed''' Macedonian ancestry."
:*''The Catholic Encyclopedia'': "His family '''appear''' to have come from Macedonia..."
:*''The Columbia Encyclopedia'': "...because of his Macedonian origin."

:Books:
:*Vasari, Volume 6, p.213: "...i suoi maggiori fussero venuti di Macedonia..."
:*Bradley, John William (p.20): "...a Macedonian ancestry is '''alluded''' to as denoting a position of some consideration..."

:Do you really consider these sources as clear, unambiguous references to a firmly demostrated Macedonian origen/ancestry, thus allowing the article to mention the said ancestry as an undisputed fact ?

:Let me be clear about one thing: I don't know whether he was of Macedonian ancestry or not, nor do I care. I'm just pointing out that the references currently used in the article do not support an undisputed claim for any ancestry whatsoever, be it Macedonian, Swedish or Chinese. – Maybe, if you find other sources, you could convince me (and others) that he was indeed of Macedonian origin. Please, provide such sources. Until you do so, any user can remove that statment per ]. - Best regards, ] 23:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

::OK, I might accept above to some point - and at the same time ask you why is deleted the fact that Clovio was an Italian painter. --] 01:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

::<small>To simplify the discussion by keeping focus on each specific topic, GiorgioOrsini's comment on the use on "Italian artist" are discussed at "]" (his full original comment can be seen ) - ] 02:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</small>

:GiorgioOrsini, to which point might you accept that there's a lack of sources to assert his Macedonian origin as an undisputed fact ? Since that comment, you have already reverted twice to your preferred version:
:*
:*
:...thus adding "because of his Macedonian origin, which explicitly denies the first reference".

:The first part, the factual mention of "his Macedonian origin", is '''not''' supported by the sources and external links used in the article, as discussed above.

:The second part, "which explicitly denies the first reference", is your personal comment, added to the body of the article, where it doesn't belong. And it's based on your personal beliefs only, since so far it's not supported by reliable sources.

:Please, stop adding such claims and your personal comments to the article, and use that time to search for better sources to support your POV instead. - Best regards, ] 02:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

::About his ethnic origins - apparently he was a Macedonian due to the fact pointed in the Vasari's book and to the fact that Clovio used ''Il Macedo'' signature. --] 03:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
::<small>The preceding comment by BarryMar was copied here from the "]" section to simplify the discussion by keeping focus on each specific topic (his full original comment remains in the said section). - ] 06:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)</small>

:::BarryMar, that's your own personal interpretation based on a 16th-century book and the artist's signature: it's a textbook example of ]. - Regards, ] 06:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


'''I have on this issue.''' - Do the sources used in the article suffice to mention his Macedonian ancestry as a clear fact, or only as a supposition ? - ] 03:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


=== On the Kingdom of Croatia ===

Kingdom of Croatia ceased to exist at the end of 12th century - re-established as the Austro-Hungarian province under Kingdom of Croatia and Slavonia in the year of 1862. When Clovio was born, his place of birth belonged to Hungary. --] 02:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

About his birthplace - that time it was in the Hungarian kingdom, today in Croatia - fixed accordingly. --] 03:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)</br>
<small>The preceding comment by BarryMar was copied here from the "]" section to simplify the discussion by keeping focus on each specific topic (his full original comment remains in the said section). - ] 06:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)</small>

=== On GiorgioOrsini's sentence ===

Claim to support by references the sentence ''However, not a single reference claiming Klović, or Glovichic name provides any valid legal document (birth, baptismal record, contract signature, tax document) confirming that Clovio ever used those names or were ever given to him.'' is nonsense. '''Simply the very references claiming this name do not provide any valid and verifiable source - only speculations or the plain claim.'''--] 02:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

:<small>GiorgioOrsini, please read ]: "Misplaced Pages is an '''encyclopedia''', not a publisher of original thought. The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is whether material is '''attributable''' to a reliable published source, not whether it is ]. ] the place to publish your opinions, experiences, or arguments."</small>

:<small>In other words, as long as no ] publishes that same argument, it constitutes ] by you based only on the references used in this article.</small>

:<small>] clearly states that "ditors should provide attribution for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. The burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material. If an article topic has no reliable sources, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it."</small>

:<small>Or, adapted by me to this particular situation :-) "if a sentence/paragraph has no reliable sources, Misplaced Pages should not include it in the article." - Best regards, ] 18:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)</small>
::Looks like you do not understand the Misplaced Pages rules and guidance.Ask somebody to help you out in clear undertstnding the rules you are referring to and their applicability to this case. Best regards. (UTC)--] 03:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

:lol I misunderstood the meaning of that sentence. I took it for a general assertion on ''all'' references and literature about the Croatian names, while I now see that it actually is a simple comment on ''only'' the references used in the article itself to source the said names. My initial confusion stemed from the custom of placing this kind of comments on the text not in the ''body'' of an article, but in a ] instead.

:I suggest that we start by transforming that sentence into a footnote, and only then discuss if it is appropriate to have it there at all. - Best regards, ] 05:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

:I edited that sentence into a footnote (). - ] 21:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

:Since my last post, the comment has been re-added to the article's ''body'' three times:
:*by BarryMar
:* by GiorgioOrsini
:* by GiorgioOrsini
:Regards, ] 03:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


'''I have on this issue.''' - Do editors' personal comments on the sources belong in the ''body'' of the article ? - ] 03:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


=== On the use of "Italian artist" ===

<small>The first comment by GiorgioOrsini was moved here from the "]" sub-section to simplify the discussion by keeping focus on each specific topic (his full original comment can be seen ) - ] 02:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)</small>

I ask you why is deleted the fact that Clovio was an Italian painter. Following your technique, I got:

1. Giorgio Giulio Clovio

2. '''Italian''' miniature painter and priest.

3. Artist: Giorgio Giulio Clovio (1498 - 1578) Nationality: '''Italian'''

4. Clovio, Giorgio Giulio 1498–1578, '''Italian''' illuminator, miniaturist, and painter, also called Macedo or Il Macedone because of his Macedonian origin.

5. 1498–1578, '''Italian''' illuminator, miniaturist, and painter, also called Macedo or Il Macedone because of his Macedonian origin.

6. (Also known as Giulio Clovio)

A famous '''Italian''' miniaturist, called by Vasari "the unique" and "little Michelangelo",

7. GIORGIO GIULIO CLOVIO (1498-1578), '''Italian''' painter,

8. Creator Dates/Places: '''Italian'''; 1498-1578 Europe,Italy
Creator Name: Giorgio Giulio Clovio

9. '''Italian''' miniature painter and priest.

--] 01:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

:The issue was previously discussed at the "]" & "]" sections above.

:Far from being removed, the fact is merely mentioned in the article with other words (and even repeated): "an illuminator, miniaturist, and painter, of Croat origin, who worked in Italy illuminator of the Italian High Renaissance".

:In the links listed above, the word "Italian" doesn't convey ethnicity or our modern concept of nationality (even citizenship), but refers to the notion that he was active in Italy and spent at least his whole adult life fully immersed in an Italian cultural enviroment.

:As Johnbod mentioned before <small>(03:47, 2 January 2007)</small>, "an adjectival Croat or Italian before "illuminator" is a statement of nationality - but I'm sure many people take it to mean that. phrasing removes that ambiguity."

:In any case, the links listed above are mostly very brief texts that don't dwell on his origins <small>(perhaps the most detailed on this issue is your n. 7 : , which states "Italian painter, by birth a Croat and...")</small>, or even just "index cards", that resort to the word "Italian" as the briefest possible description. - Best regards, ] 02:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

About removed Italian painter - there are the two reasons not to remove it from this article
* First of all, this is the English Misplaced Pages and in the Enlish speaking countries (USA, Canad, UK, Ireland, New Zealans, Australia, ...) nationality=citizenship. Clovio was a citizen of the Venitian Republic - a medieval Italian state
* As we see in the overwhelming number of references Clovio is listed as Italian painter due to the fact that he worked and lived in medieval Italy and, as a painter, belonged to the Italian Renaissance
--] 03:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)</br>
<small>The preceding comment by BarryMar was copied here from the "]" section to simplify the discussion by keeping focus on each specific topic (his full original comment remains in the said section). - ] 06:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)</small>

:BarryMar, On your first point: if you want to mention his "Italian or Venetian or Whatever citizenship", you can do it much better by clearly stating that "he was a citizen of X political entity". Of course, in order to do so, we must ] a ] making the exact same argument (i.e. , that "he was a citizen of X political entity"), since such things were not as simple in the 16th century as they are today.

:On the second point, as I mentioned above, most links presented so far list him as an "Italian painter" because they don't dwell on the issue, and so resort to the simplest possible description. - I find "Italian" is too ambiguous a word to use in this case without adding a lot of caveats immediatly afterwards, thus complicating the sentence's redaction. Luckily, we can convey the exact same idea using different words - Best regards, ] 06:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

== Calm down, please! ==

*About removed Italian painter - there are the two reasons not to remove it from this article
** First of all, this is the English Misplaced Pages and in the Enlish speaking countries (USA, Canad, UK, Ireland, New Zealans, Australia, ...) nationality=citizenship. Clovio was a citizen of the Venitian Republic - a medieval Italian state
** As we see in the overwhelming number of references Clovio is listed as Italian painter due to the fact that he worked and lived in medieval Italy and, as a painter, belonged to the Italian Renaissance

*About removing Croatian 'name' from the article
** This 'name' is invented i.e. meaningless name not used by Colvio or by his contemporaries ever, and therefore, this 'name' is of no biographical value here
** This 'name' is not in use in the English speaking world nor any editors of the Clovio's biographical notes or biography saw it rational to include into the biographical text
** Italian and Russian Wikipedias did not include this 'name'
** However, to make Croatian nationalists happy, this 'name' is still mentioned later -as a sort of trivia knowledge - and there is no need to have it at the beginning of this article

*About his ethnic origins - apparently he was a Macedonian due to the fact pointed in the Vasari's book and to the fact that Clovio used ''Il Macedo'' signature

*About his birthplace - that time it was in the Hungarian kingdom, today in Croatia - fixed accordingly

* About ''Under Clovio's bust, beside his name, is written the name of his homeland: Pictor de Croatia''
**Utter nonsense - invented by the editor of this 'reference' - therefore removed
--] 03:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

:<small>To simplify the discussion by keeping focus on each specific topic, I copied BarryMar's comments under the appropiates headings above (with the sole exception of his last point). - ] 06:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)</small>

::I won't be exhaustively responding to these points, because you are only bringing up topics that I (along with others) have already refuted. Instead, I'll deal with your changes to the article.

::*Your basic argument revolves around Croatia apparantly not existing at the time of Clovio's birth, including deleting a reference (which you have hurled names at, but haven't really refuted). The Kingdom of Croatia obviously existed during this time (not even the Hungarians dispute this!). Vasari, whom you yourself are referencing for a lot of your info, said that Clovio was from Croatia.
::::::Kingdom of Croatia ceased to exist in the year of 1102 - after being defeated and conquered by Hungarians. Vasari's reference fully respected--] 03:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

::*Your reasoning for removing the Croatian name is totally flawed. Also, Misplaced Pages itself is not a valid reference. Even if, as you contend, the name has no historical basis, the fact that it is in standard use in Croatia and through Eastern Europe is enough to include it in the header.
:: --] 19:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
:::I gave at least 10 other references, among them Encyclopaedia Britannica, not finding rational to include this Croatian 'discovery'. However, this nonsense ('Juraj Julije Klovic') is still in this article and there is no reason to put it at the beginning of this article. No it is not used in Eastern Europe at all. All I see is a number of Croatian nationalists pushing this 'name' as something valid - who even tried to write an article on the Italian Misplaced Pages under the 'Juraj Julije Klovic' title. As I see, after investigating more about some Croatian 'names' - Marco Polo shall be Croat Marko Pilic?!?! How about George Washington? Might he be actually Croat Juraj Zagreb?--] 03:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

::::"Rationale to include it" is given in the article: , & clearly prove that the 'discovery' is currently used in Croatia. The article restricts itself to mention this fact. - Regards, ] 03:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::No it is not - non-biographical data yes, political propaganda yes! Misplaced Pages is not a place for political propaganda.--] 18:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
::::::Look Giorgio, sorry if I was brutal, but you are behaving in a very disruptive way. Now, you should understand that if you insist in editing against consensus, even if you may not formally break the 3RR you could all the same be blocked by an admin. Like it or not, the references you removed respect ], and removing reliably sourced material is considered vandalism in wikipedia.--] 18:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
::::::Reference is nota reference - just a librarian classification of names. I've put it back and please, be involved into a rational discussion, without any threats!--] 00:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

::::::GiorgioOrsini, I guess that by "no it is not" you meant that the usage of "Juraj Julije Klović" in Croatia is not a valid rational to merit its inclusion in the article. - If that is the case, I strongly disagree.
::::::First, because it's an interesting fact, one worth mentioning.
::::::Second, because "Juraj Julije Klović" is not only used in the Croatian language, but also by Croatians in English-language texts. - Regards, ] 19:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

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Legacy

The article affirms that Giulio Clovio stated his Croatian identity. Can I have more details about this. --Silvio1973 (talk) 10:07, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Why do I have to search if everything is already in bibliography and references, aside from the talk page? It is well established fact that he signed himself mostly as Giulio Clovio Crovata.

Bradley: "his customary signature (Crovato or Crovata) (was) adopted by him as a native of Croatia." page 18 His signatures and his contemporary Vasari already affirm that. Philosopher12 (talk) 19:32, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Possibly, but other authoritative sources such as the Britannica affirms his Italian nationality. Reporting the two nationalities and the relevant sources in support is the most equitable solution to the matter. --Silvio1973 (talk) 17:28, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Such statements have already been refuted in talk page. I don't know why Britannica should be "authoritative" source for Giulio Clovio - it doesn't explain how is Giulio Clovio Italian and is contradicting itself. It affirms he was born in Croatia, does this mean he is Italian from Croatia? It is an encyclopedia, therefore one short reference on Giulio Clovio by dubious author cannot refute whole Bradley's 400 pages book analysing solely Giulio Clovio and his work. (Britannica claimed that Charlmeagne was the first Holy Roman Emperor). Not only that, but the artist which is in question claimed for himself that he is Croatian, and is therefore futile to further discuss his nationality.

It is already mentioned in the article that (because of his lifetime spent in Italy) he is proclaimed (mostly in encyclopedias and other "instant information" reference literature) as Italian which is refuted by Giulio Clovio himself when he signs himself as "Crovata." If you can find sources which claim that he is born in Italy, and that he claimed for/signed himself as "Italiano" I will gladly change the article myself. Philosopher12 (talk) 20:10, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

It looks like a few things need to be mentioned:
  • The field you're haggling about is called "Nationality". The meaning of that word in English isn't the same as nacionalnost or narodnost in Croatian; it's no less common to treat it as equivalent to državljanstvo.
  • He is described as an Italian painter by Britannica, which is not necessarily indicative of his ethnicity, rather they could have legitimately simply meant he was naturalized in Italy, which he apparently was.
  • It's not invalid to reference another encyclopedia - it's a tertiary source, which is fine. If secondary sources contradict tertiary sources, they take precedence, but it should be spelled out.
  • Infoboxes sometimes suck, horribly - trying to provide this information in the infobox here has obviously been most unhelpful.
--Joy (talk) 08:25, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

1.) I'm well acquianted with terms "nationality" and "ethnicity" in English language, thank you. In this case I think nationality in both meanings (Citizenship, state which he comes from - Croatia; and membership to the Croatian nation) is undoubtedly Croatian.

2.) There was no official state called "Italy" in the 16th century as far as i know, therefore his nationality = citizenship cannot be "Italian". There was an idea of Italy and Italian people of course (the goal of Machiavelli's book "The Prince" is to unite "enslaved" Italian people). His nationality could be Italian in the sense of belonging to Italian people (not citizenship), but Giulio Clovio expressed his feelings during his lifetime mostly as "Crovato" and didn't affiliate himself with any of the Italian states or Italian people.

3.) I don't know how you would arrange the article - it is mentioned that (because of his lifetime spent in Italy) he is mentioned as "Italian" in encyclopedias, and Britannica is sourced in the article. If you have ideas (or anyone else) for some new edits or changes, I would gladly hear it and edit the article, but not if edits are incorrect. Philosopher12 (talk) 11:32, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I think it's completely nonsensical to pretend that the Italian ethnonym/toponym is completely inapplicable in the 1500s. You're making exactly the same mistake as Silvio did with the Croatian toponym as described at Talk:Schiavone, except that this idea is probably insulting to the Italians, while that one was to the Croatians. Please, let's just drop this bizarre double standard. Klović affiliated practically exclusively with Italy and the Italians between the age of 28 and his death in Rome at the age of 52, so it's not unreasonable to describe him as an Italian painter. This is also not at all exclusive to Italy - Croatia does the same to Andrija Aleši. --Joy (talk) 13:25, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

If I didn't read this, I wouldn't believe you said it. How did Giulio Clovio affiliate himself with Italians? By living and working in Italy? Then Ivan Lučić (Giovanni Lucio, spent last 20 years of his life in Rome), Stjepan Gradić and other notable Slavs from Dubrovnik and Dalmatia are also Italians? Is Ivan Meštrović American (what his grandson claims) since he spent last 17 years of his life in the USA, the country that he hated to live in? I don't understand what you are trying to say. Julije Klović was born in Croatia and stated his identity, and most of his life he spent in Italy, but that doesn't make his nationality (belonging to people) Italian. Italian ethnonym is applicable to Italian people, I said it is (you can say that Leonardo da Vinci is Italian), but Klović/Clovio never affiliated himself with Italian people.

Modern citizenships didn't exist then, so when the article states "nationality" it is in the sense of where the artists comes from, and which people does he view as his own. Philosopher12 (talk) 14:41, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Philosopher12, from my perspective the concept of nationality (either Italian or Croatian) is totally inapplicable in this case. It exists (yes, unfortunately this does exist) a tendency in modern Croatian historiography to extend the concept of Croatian nationality and ethnicity to areas of Romance culture and to periods well before the beginning of the modern concept of nationality. Whatever is the approach this does not apply to Giulio Clovio. I believe the actual reference to the nationality should be removed or alternatively both nationality should be reported (this would be however just an horrible compromise). Joy, concerning Talk:Schiavone I do not contest that those people were ethnically Slavs. But they were from Dalmatia, not from Croatia. There is a cultural specificity in the area of Romance culture from that part of Europe that from some reasons some contributors tend to forget --Silvio1973 (talk) 19:24, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I feel we're all making a set of monologues, but let's continue for a bit more... Klović apparenly permanently emigrated out of the Kingdom of Hungary and spent the rest of his life in Italy, blending in the way many other Schiavone like him, and made his best work there. To say that it's completely unacceptable to describe him as an "Italian painter" because you want to restrict the meaning of the adjective "affiliate" to a meaning of "renounce former nationality" which doesn't actually exist (to affiliate means simply to keep company with or to join in an affiliation) - is silly. On the other hand, it's also silly to avoid calling the Dalmatian Slavic subjects of Venice Croatian or Slavic just because they were Dalmatians - their cultural specificity is explained by linking to the article that explains the history of the Venetian Republic in Dalmatia, but that doesn't in any way override the simple fact that the Italians of that time had explicated their Slavic origin, often even in their names. Anyway, as I said before, the "nationality" field in the infobox only serves to muddle the water - let's just drop it. The lead section already nicely describes everything. If we don't have to put "Thracian" in Spartacus' infobox, there's no need to do anything like that here, either. --Joy (talk) 07:31, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Right. Just remember that under our biographical guidelines, if Clovio had emigrated to the USA at the same age we would be unable to describe him as Croatian in the lead first sentence in any way. I absolutely agree about the nationality bit in the infobox - I would say drop the whole box. For those joining recently, there is tons more on what sources say in various languages in the archives for this page, in fact there is almost nothing else. The only thing most editors here, now and in the past, are interested in is the few words describing his nationality/origins/ethnicity. Hardly anyone takes any interest in the actual man or his work. Johnbod (talk) 11:24, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Since you are experts on this question, feel free to delete nationality from the infobox.Philosopher12 (talk) 14:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

It is also wrong "Legacy" chapter. Vasari wrote he was born in "Crovazia" into a family from "Macedonia": http://it.wikisource.org/Le_vite_de'_pi%C3%B9_eccellenti_pittori,_scultori_e_architettori_(1568)/Don_Giulio_Clovio

--Grifter72 (talk) 13:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Also Bradley (falsely used in the article) reports "Macedonian": http://books.google.it/books?id=xADJ2x45iJAC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=%22Giulio+Clovio%22+macedonian&source=bl&ots=FBvv46aY8Y&sig=5phPUuMX71PlfY-Vp5tu0kpOsxA&hl=it&sa=X&ei=vWwRULroIcb1sgaRxoG4DQ&ved=0CF0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Giulio%20Clovio%22%20macedonian&f=false --Grifter72 (talk) 16:24, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Same for Visani: http://books.google.it/books?ei=Xm8RUKK-BcfOswa6y4FY&hl=it&id=XAPWAAAAMAAJ&dq=visani+maria+clovio&q=macedonia#search_anchor --Grifter72 (talk) 16:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

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