| Revision as of 07:57, 24 April 2023 editTimothyBlue (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users38,395 edits →The events of 1915 as a period of inter-ethnic conflict: closed, see close comments (DiscussionCloser v.1.7.3)Tag: Reverted← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 14:59, 8 January 2025 edit undoBuidhe (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, Mass message senders, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Template editors136,087 edits →End date of 1917 instead of 1923: ReplyTag: Reply |
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{{warning|1=Under the discretionary sanctions imposed at ], this article has been placed on a '''one-revert rule'''. Any editor who makes more than one revert in a 24-hour period will be ''blocked''. Please edit cooperatively, and seek consensus and compromise rather than edit-war. ] 22:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)}} |
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{{warning|1=Under the discretionary sanctions imposed at ], this article has been placed on a '''one-revert rule'''. Any editor who makes more than one revert in a 24-hour period will be ''blocked''. Please edit cooperatively, and seek consensus and compromise rather than edit-war. ] 22:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)}} |
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== Infobox text in “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” incorrect == |
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== On my last reverted edit == |
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There is a miscount in the Infobox to the right of the “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” subtitle. Another of the editors’ absurdities. Listed are five vilayets but then the text says that they represented “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. Sivas, the sixth one, is missing, dearest editors. And one falsification of an RS text in ref. 4. Nowhere on p. 279 does Kévorkian (]) say that these vilayets were “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. This is what the author says on p. 279, ad verbum: “According to the figures presented in the previous chapter, of the 2,925 towns and villages of the empire in which Armenians lived, no fewer than 2,084 were located on the Armenian high plateau, properly speaking – that is, in the vilayets of Erzerum, Van, Bitlis, Mamuret ul-Aziz, and Dyarbekir.” By the way, did I mention that Kévorkian uses “the Armenian high plateau” and not “Anatolia” in this particular clause? Cheers] (]) 18:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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was reverted by @] with the comment "''Please get consensus for these changes''" - here's a quick comment on my edit (to clarify my shorter edit comment). I changed the term "Syriac" to "Assyrian" in three paragraphs. The two last ones are pretty obvious as explicitly uses "Assyrians", not "Syriacs" - so not quite sure why this was reverted. As for the first section, Assyrian is more commonly used, and the genocide is more frequently referred to as "Assyrian genocide", compared to e.g. "Syriac genocide". And ] is also used here on Misplaced Pages as the ]. This section was changed here a while back by you, Buidhe, without any consensus from what I can find? The article should at least use the slash term in the first section. ] (]) 20:37, 28 February 2023 (UTC) |
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:Good points. The caption now includes Sivas, and the text more closely matches Kevorkian's village-based analysis. There is still a problem, since Kevorkian doesn't use the "Six Villayets" concept explicitly on the page cited. Also, if we want to introduce the "Six Villayets", just doing so in this caption is odd. ] (] / ]) 15:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:All Assyrians in 1915 were ] but not all Syriac Christians referred to here were Assyrians depending on what terminology is used. Suny does use "Assyrians" but not all sources do likewise—Kevorkian for example uses "Syriac". In the Sayfo article I split the difference and used both terms depending on which population is referred to, but that is too complex for this article imo. (] · ]) ''']''' 20:53, 28 February 2023 (UTC) |
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::Thank you.] (]) 16:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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::During the ] in 1878, these vilayets were referred to as Six Armenian Vilayets, not Six Vilayets.] (]) 18:16, 23 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::Yes, but the cluster is given so many names by the sources, and I'd prefer to use the title of the linked article. You might want to propose a move of the linked article if you think that "Six Armenian Vilayets" would be a better title. ] (] / ]) 19:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Six Armenian Vilayets (or, more precisely, "the provinces inhabited by the Armenians") was the name originally figuring in the official documents of the 1878 ]. Turks, of course, labored to drop anything "Armenian" in their "best" traditions, and I'm sorry to say, the title of the linked article, ], follows this Turkish preference. Whereas one would think the title must have followed the original name version and not the Turkish distortion.] (]) 15:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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== “CUP regrouped as Turkish nationalists” is hypocrisy, the Turkish nationalists literally fought against the CUP… == |
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::I get your point, but do not fully agree. Protestant Assyrians also lived in Midyat at the time. But that is not the point anyway. Correct, not all sources do - but Suny does so here when describing the event, and a majority uses Assyrian as the umbrella term here (...which should not be ignored, right?). Same goes for the article on Misplaced Pages. My last point was not addressed, but still stands. A slash term should be used in the first section, at least. ] (]) 21:10, 28 February 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Any further comments on the above? ] (]) 20:22, 7 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Yeah, someone care to explain? ] ]<sup>/</sup>] 08:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:What you wrote is not really true and the sources that say so are decades out of date. This was Zürcher's big contribution and now most historians changed their view (] · ]) ''']''' 10:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Will go ahead and revert it back then. ] (]) 15:32, 24 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::The Istanbul Government is the CUP… which was allied to the Entente… which was fighting Turkish nationalists… ] ]<sup>/</sup>] 19:09, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::You've got it backwards. The CUP as an organization didn't outlast World War I, but most of the leading figures in the Turkish Nationalist movement were ex-CUP. If you doubt me, there are literally three sources cited in the article, I would recommend checking them out. (] · ]) ''']''' 20:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== How to contact editors with extra privileges? == |
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@]: Why do you keep reverting on the basis of "no consensus" (]) when you are not addressing any of my points above here on the talk page? ] (]) 11:25, 27 March 2023 (UTC) |
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I understand there are Misplaced Pages editors who have responsibilities or an ability to perform certain administrative actions, called “editors with extra privileges”, if I’m not mistaken? Could anyone visiting this Talk page (other than these two, for the love of God, (] · ]) ''']''' and ] (] / ])) help with how such editors can be contacted? The highhandedness of the authors and editors of this article, who refuse to implement RS-based edits containing significant viewpoints in violation of Misplaced Pages’s policies and who are involved in falsification of original source texts, needs to stop for the common good of the entire Misplaced Pages community. Thank you in advance.] (]) 17:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:I already explained the reasoning for using "Syriac". (] · ]) ''']''' 19:43, 27 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::You referred to consensus in your edit comment, but have not directed me to such discussions. I am questioning the revert of my edit above; "''All Assyrians in 1915 were ] but not all Syriac Christians referred to here were Assyrians depending on what terminology is used''" is not answering my points above. Obviously the majority of sources speak on an "Assyrian genocide" compared to a "Syriac genocide". Also, the source used for the event described here in particular use the term "Assyrian" - then I think there should be a clear reason for not using "Assyrian" in that paragraph. Further, I am suggesting a compromise above, not addressed either. ] (]) 09:17, 31 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I will add the slash term, as I suggested for compromise above. Will do the same in the second part as well, even though the source explicitly uses "Assyrians" for the event in question. ] (]) 10:54, 12 April 2023 (UTC) |
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== Main photograph == |
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The photograph in the main photo is really lacking in quality. I propose we change this. ] (]) 05:14, 11 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:What photograph would you use instead? (] · ]) ''']''' 05:44, 11 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::I will list them here soon. Thank you. ] (]) 06:25, 11 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Here is one, which is one of the most iconic photos of the genocide. Much more clearer than the current photo. ] (]) 15:07, 11 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::::] is very good quality and graphically illustrates the horrors of the genocide. This would have the added effect of making any ] think twice before regurgitating ] on this talk page. ] (]) 15:17, 11 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::I oppose the one of Henry Morgenthau as the main image. It has a tree standing in the middle of the picture. ] (]) 15:46, 11 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::If you view its commons page it is used on many articles. Clearly not that much of a concern. ] (]) 16:09, 11 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::It is used in many articles, but not as the main image, about which this discussion is supposed to be. ] (]) 17:43, 11 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::My issues with this image are |
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:::::#It does not convey as much information as the current image, since it's just a pile of dead bodies whereas the current image shows how deportation occurred and includes perpetrators as well as victims |
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:::::# NOTCENSORED urges using a less graphic image as the top image if possible. |
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:::::(] · ]) ''']''' 17:54, 11 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::::This one cannot be used. If Wegner actually took it, there may be copyright issues because he died less than 70 years ago. (] · ]) ''']''' 17:56, 11 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::Well it can be changed to published before the 1928 version for the license. This image is widely available in many websites and other similar sites that list it as public use. ] (]) 03:23, 12 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::In order for "published before 1928" to be valid, you would need to track down an actual publication of the image before 1928. That would be great, as the image would then be usable in the article. (] · ]) ''']''' 08:09, 12 March 2023 (UTC) |
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== Opening paragraph is misorienting readers == |
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Many attempts have been made by several contributors on this talk page to bring to the attention of the editors of this weak article, which unfortunately only gets worse with time, that the lede, not to mention other paragraphs for which hundreds of other RS-based edits have been suggested, is disorienting in several respects. Yet, to this date, not even slightest improvement has been made. It is as if the editors are telling their readers: “you have to accept what we’ve scribbled”. |
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First, (and I’ll skip the fact of depreciating the term “Genocide” appearing in the former version to a lower-case “g” to avoid accusations of bludgeoning) is the clause “during World War I”, to which a clarification can be found in the description under the .djvu image on the right, which sets the date from 1915 to 1917. I’ve lost count, honestly, how many times and how many RS have been suggested here—all attesting that the genocide lasted well into 1918. I’m not trying to offer up my ancestors’ story as an RS, God forbid, but my paternal relatives miraculously escaped Turkish atrocities '''in 1918'''. My maternal great grandmother’s body was dismembered by the Turks when she, together with her siblings and her children, attempted to flee across the border to Russia '''in 1918''' (of these, only my grandmother had survived). And now, editors of a “free” online encyclopedia are telling me, and millions of descendants of the victims of Turkish atrocities, that the genocide lasted until 1917? Ugh… |
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Second, the clause “the ruling Committee of Union and Progress” gives an incomplete and thus misleading information about the CUP because another Misplaced Pages article, ], to which the hyper link takes the reader, says nothing about the widely known, historically proven, and generally accepted fact that the CUP, the culprit of the Armenian atrocities, was not just “the ruling committee” or “a secret revolutionary organization and political party”, but the '''wartime government''' of the Ottoman Empire. I fail to see how the editors of this article can disregard this fact which was acknowledged by scores of historians, genocide scholars, political scientists, and international lawyers? Misplaced Pages editors, do you seriously think that not mentioning the CUP as the wartime government, and mentioning it only as some obscure “ruling committee”, contributes to quality improvement of this article? |
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Third, (and I, again, skip the dreamed-up figure “around one million” to avoid accusations of bludgeoning) is there a particular reason (not being a professional editor as you are, I’d love to know) as to why Armenian males, many of whom were also forcibly Islamized and the fact, as you surely know has been acknowledged in many RS, cannot be added to Armenian women and children? |
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Forth, similarly, is there a particular reason why the Mesopotamian Desert, another widely known mass gravesite of the Armenians, as you no doubt know from RS, cannot be added to the Syrian Desert? I deliberately avoid repeating my earlier edits with regard to both points in order not to be accused of bludgeoning, bad faith, obscenity, and crap like that.] (]) 21:23, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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:{{Ping|73.173.64.115}} I can't answer all your questions but I can answer a few |
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:1) The Committee of Union and Progress being the wartime government is pretty clear from the article, the CUP being the ruling party during WW1 naturally makes the logical association, I believe your misconceptions arises from the word "Committee" which is part of their name (]) |
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:2) forcefully islamized males are few and far between in RS-s I've seen, the numbers were not as large as the women and children, please do provide RSs if otherwise. |
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:3) the Mesopotamian Desert you refer to is part of the Syrian Desert, the Syrian desert includes Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and the northern parts of Saudi Arabia. - ] (]) 07:29, 22 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::1) For the lay readers, absolutely not clear. I’m aware, of course, that the word “Committee” is part of the CUP’s name, but it’s a part of their name as a “secret revolutionary organization and political party”, a definition given in a separate article ]. When visitors of Misplaced Pages read an article, they’re not expected to make “logical associations” but consume information which the editors must lay out in an easily discernible format. The clause “Spearheaded by the ruling Committee of Union and Progress”, with a hyper link to a separate article describing it as “a secret revolutionary organization and political party”, does not in any way give your uninformed readers the slightest idea that this “ruling committee”, “secret revolutionary organization”, and “political party” was, in fact, the official government of the Ottoman Empire. Besides, it is hard to imagine that some obscure “ruling committee” was capable of masterminding and perpetrating a crime of such immense proportions as the Armenian Genocide. |
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::2) It can't be said that forcefully Islamized Armenian males were “few and far between”. I’m not sure what RSs you’ve seen, but there are, in fact, very scarce numbers given in the sources for Islamized women and children so they could be compared with males. It’s no sweat for me to provide RSs, but from my bitter experience contributing to this weak and selectively written article, hardly will editors make any edits. They seem to be pretty satisfied with the existing wording and content, especially in parts related to the number of murdered Armenians, the Ottoman Armenian population number, and the Armenians’ historical habitat which, as I came to learn from this article, was in some “Anatolia”. |
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::3) The Syrian desert includes '''southern '''Syria, '''western '''Iraq, and '''east '''Jordan, but not '''all''' of Syria, Iraq, Jordan, as you claim. That being the reason why I suggested to specify Mesopotamian desert.] (]) 13:28, 22 March 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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::: Good article but there is a several mistakes. For example: |
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::* During their invasion of Russian and Persian territory in 1914, Ottoman paramilitaries massacred local Armenians. |
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::: Article about Caucasus campaign in Misplaced Pages and sources in this article says "The Russian military campaign started on 1 November 1914 with the Russian invasion of Turkish Armenia.". ] (]) 10:47, 22 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Ah, you began to edit also earlier, but didn't sign as Davidian. Well, as before, walls of text will hardly get read and addressed. But you began to edit also on other articles and I congratulate you for that. ] (]) 18:14, 27 March 2023 (UTC) |
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== Motives == |
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Isn’t turkifaction also a motive? ] (]) 17:31, 1 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:See the second paragraph of the "Aims" section (] · ]) ''']''' 17:45, 1 April 2023 (UTC) |
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== "This genocide put an end to more than two thousand years of Armenian civilization." == |
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This sentence is worded in a very misleadingly general way. Obviously, there is still an existing Armenian civilization (there is a country called Armenia!) Perhaps it should be qualified with more words at the end. For example: "This genocide put an end to more than two thousand years of Armenian civilization in what is now Turkey." (?) ] (]) 14:12, 2 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:It should, and used to, say "in eastern Anatolia", as there is indeed an Armenian presence in the capital but Armenians were prevented from organizing as a community in the rest of Turkey, as explained in Suciyan's book. Now fixed. (] · ]) ''']''' 17:07, 2 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::There was no such a thing as "eastern Anatolia" throughout more than two thousand years of Armenian civilization. What?? I’ve lost count how many times it was suggested here that "eastern Anatolia" is a relatively recent Turkish toponymic invention, essentially a tautology translated from Greek as "Eastern East", to replace the geographically and historically correct term "Armenian Plateau" or "Armenian Highlands", the indigenous place of habitat of the Armenians. I personally offered a more neutral toponym, very often used in RSs, "Eastern Asia Minor" or "Western Asia". Editors, you're supposed to be unbiased. Why do you keep this cooked-up joke "eastern Anatolia" in the text?] (]) 01:44, 7 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::Please see the Archives in this talk for tons of RSs using "Eastern Asia Minor" as the Armenians' historical place of habitat. Can anyone here explain why one toponym, "eastern Anatolia" used in a number of RSs, is given preference over another toponym, "eastern Asia Minor" used extensively in other RSs? Which Misplaced Pages policy gives editors the right to cherry-pick one term to the detriment of the other? Please refer your contributors and readers to that particular policy. Thank you.] (]) 19:39, 9 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::I'm not sure where this idea that "eastern Anatolia" is a recent invention comes from. Read the sources from that period, including the Ottoman Armenian ones, and you'll see that it was interchangeably used as much as "Armenia," "Turkish Armenia," etc. In fact, it's rare to come across Ottoman Armenian sources referring to the region as the Armenian Plateau or Highlands (funnily enough, those are terms that originated in academia in the later 20th century, and even then to use it for the ancient and Bronze Age periods). Just because Anatolia means "east" in Greek doesn't mean this broad geographic region didn't have its constituent western, northern, and eastern ends. Note this is eastern with lowercase "e," not uppercase, which is indeed a modern invention by the Turkish state. ] (]) 21:11, 9 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::::The fact that “eastern Anatolia” is a relatively recent invention comes from the Ottoman own maps and historiography, in which the term “Anatolia” until the late nineteenth century was used to indicate a territory of the empire which was situated in the western part of the Peninsula of Asia Minor. The approximate borders of Anatolia extended from Alexandretta, today’s Turkified İskenderun, and extending north-eastward through Marash, Malatia, Yerznka (Erzinjan), and Baiburt to the Black Sea coast. The remaining territory was never Anatolia; most of it was geographically and historically known as ] or “Armenian Plateau”. Prior to the Turkification laws adopted by the Republic of Turkey at the end of 1920s, the term “Anatolia” referred to the territory to the west of the Armenian Highlands, which consists of around 60 per cent of modern-day Turkey. After Turkification, to answer your question where “this idea” that eastern Anatolia is a recent invention comes from, the remaining territory lying to the east of Anatolia was designated as “eastern Anatolia”, a never-before existed geographical toponym. Go read Misplaced Pages’s own article ] and familiarize yourself with Ottoman own maps on which eastern parts of modern-day Turkey were shown as Ermenistan (Armenia), here https://www.armgeo.am/en/anatolia/. Oh, and I forgot, next time please don’t tell a historian of late Ottoman period to “read the sources from that period”, okay? Thank you. And also, since you're not a professional in the field, please enrich your knowledge on the toponyms "Armenian Plateau" or "Armenian Highlands" by reading Robert Hewsen's "Armenia: A Historical Atlas" https://www.amazon.com/Armenia-Historical-Robert-H-Hewsen/dp/0226332284 from which you'd be surprised to know that these terms have not "originated in academia in the later 20th century" (?!). This said, may I remind that I personally offered “eastern Asia Minor”, a neutral term which is extensively used in RSs (please see Archives on this talk page for references to these many RSs). So I’m afraid I may need to repeat my question to which I received no answer. Which particular Misplaced Pages policy gives editors the right to cherry-pick one term used in a number of RSs to the detriment of the other term similarly extensively used in the RSs? Please refer us to that policy. Thank you.] (]) 14:00, 10 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::::While it's certainly the case that this region was commonly called "Armenia" or "Ottoman Armenia" at the time, modern day reliable sources don't usually use this language as it is confusing to readers now that Armenia is an independent country. (] · ]) ''']''' 23:30, 10 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::This is a very lame counterargument. And the reasons why it is lame, to put it mildly, are that: (1) if you admit the region was called “Armenia” or “Ottoman Armenia” at the time, then it must appear under that particular name in the text because the topic of the article that you had so clumsily drafted, and I’m sorry to have to say this, pertains to the period when the region was called “Armenia” or “Ottoman Armenia”, and not “eastern Anatolia”; (2) you chose to disregard many other modern-day reliable sources that I and others had brought forward, in which the region figures as “eastern Asia Minor”, neglecting these sources to the extent that there is no single mention of this term as an equally extensively used toponym to denominate the area (again, please take pains to re-visit the Archives on this talk page for dozens of such RSs); and (3) only one-fourth of what has once been historic Armenia is now the independent country of Armenia, but if you truly wished to highlight a distinction between the modern country and Armenia as a toponym designating the pre-genocide region, well, you know, there is this simple way of doing it: just put “the Republic of Armenia”, and your readers will perfectly understand that this name refers to the independent country. Besides, what does the name of modern independent country have to do with the article on the Armenian Genocide? But my question, and I’m sorry to have to repeat it for the third time, was not about “Armenia” or “Ottoman Armenia” or “Armenian Highlands”. My question was about the term “eastern Asia Minor” which, as you must know, figures equally extensively in modern-day reliable sources. If you know there is this alternative term used as frequently as “eastern Anatolia”, why is it that only “eastern Anatolia” figures across the text? Why isn’t “eastern Asia Minor” mentioned as an alternative name or used interchangeably in the text? Aren’t you guys supposed to be neutral? Where is your neutrality?] (]) 00:31, 11 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::::::I’m sorry. I didn’t hear back, so I have to repeat for the fourth time. And, of course, the purpose of repetition is not to suggest in any way that Misplaced Pages editors have difficulty understanding simple things. It is that for the fourth time no one cares to direct contributors and readers to a particular policy in this inimitable “free” online encyclopedia, which gives editors the right to select one particular term used in a number of RSs to the detriment of the other term similarly extensively figuring in the RSs. In particular, the toponym “eastern Asia Minor” is used extensively in the RSs to denominate the place of habitat of Western (Ottoman) Armenians (again, please see Archives for several dozen extracts from RSs to that regard). And the relatively new toponymic invention “eastern Anatolia” is equally extensively used in the RSs to denominate the area. I’m just trying to get an idea which Misplaced Pages policy allows the editors to make a selection in favor of one term to the detriment of the other? And if no such policy exists (I couldn’t find it, but you all are professionals in the field, aren’t you?), then I guess my follow-up question is: isn’t this a sheer violation of ] by Misplaced Pages’s own editors?] (]) 20:52, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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::::::::The main area where millennia of Armenia culture was wiped out by genocide is exactly ] plus some other places of Armenian settlement. It doesn't matter that the toponym is relatively recent. ] (]) 22:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Friend, you're not answering the question. Did you read the question? Specially for you, for the fifth time. Sorry. Which Misplaced Pages policy gives the editors the right to cherry-pick one widely used term to the detriment of the other widely used term? And, for the purpose of enriching your knowledge, please be aware that there was no such thing as "Eastern Anatolia Region" throughout millennia of Armenians' presence in their place of habitat. The place was called EXACTLY the ] or Armenian Plateau or Ermenistan on Turkey's own maps. And since you took pains to redirect me to ], do please have a quick look at what the very first sentence in this article ] states. Do you see what the sentence reads? It reads: "Anatolia, '''also known as Asia Minor'''". So I guess my question is, again, how come one Misplaced Pages article provides an alternative name for Anatolia, but you folks here stubbornly refuse any of the alternative, and much older and more authentic, names for Eastern Anatolia, such as, for example, Eastern Asia Minor? Curious to know.] (]) 23:32, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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::::::::::Besides, since when another Misplaced Pages article is considered an RS so you redirect me to it and state cocksurely that it was "exactly" Eastern Anatolia Region where the millennia of Armenians' presence was wiped out? Very unprofessional, I'm sorry to say.] (]) 00:08, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::::::::::And since you brought up this article ] here, did you read this sentence in the introductory section: "The region encompasses most of Western Armenia (Armenian: Արեւմտյան Հայաստան) and had a large population of indigenous Armenians until the Armenian genocide". Did you? How about this section "Substitution for the name Armenia" in the same article? Did you take heed of it? What conclusion can you make out of it?] (]) 01:07, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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::::::::::::The Armenian Plateau and the Armenian Highlands are larger geological areas than Turkey's Eastern Anatolia Region, and they still contain pockets of Armenian civilization outside of Turkey. So the sentence is still essentially correct, that the Armenian genocide ended Armenian civilization inside Turkey, mainly in this one region of Turkey. Your style of discussion here is combative; you might be better served if you propose simple things, for instance that Text A should be replaced by Text B. Better yet, you could register yourself a username and start earning enough experience points to edit the article directly. Or were you blocked in the past for doing this? ] (]) 08:08, 23 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::Your reply demonstrates how careless and inattentive you are towards your contributors’ suggestions. Long before you popped up in this talk, I already proposed to replace Text A: “Eastern Anatolia” by Text B: “Eastern Asia Minor”. Or at least use both terms interchangeably in the text because both are equally extensively used in RSs. Or you were asleep in the past not noticing this? So careless you are that you bring up the "Armenian Plateau" and the "Armenian Highlands", a term I’ve never proposed. And please show me a word or a clause or a passage in my remarks above that remotely suggest that my “style” is combative. If you fail to do so, you wouldn't wish to be called a liar, would you?] (]) 16:10, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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== Conflicting information in Introduction and Infobox == |
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The introductory section of this unrivalled article, in para. 3, states that “massacres and ethnic cleansing of Armenian survivors were continued out by the Turkish nationalist movement during the Turkish War of Independence after World War I”. Yet the date in the infobox right next to this section states that the genocide lasted from 1915 to 1917. Please help your contributors and readers understand: if massacres and ethnic cleansing continued during the ] (1919-1923) after ] (after 1918), what pocket calculator did the authors of this article use that produced these discrepancies in dates so we don’t buy that particular brand for our home and office use? Thank you.] (]) 23:12, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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:There is no simple answer. The Armenian genocide happened in the mid-1890s, 1909 and 1914, then there were specific government orders in 1915 and 1916 which extended through 1917. More genocide was carried out through 1929. The heaviest years of official Turkish government action were 1915–1917. So the listing is not wrong. ] (]) 23:33, 22 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::Okay, please try hard to avoid making yourself a laughingstock. The Armenian Genocide did not happen during the Hamidian massacres of 1894-1896 or in Adana in 1909 or, what??, in 1914. Most genocide scholars and historians of the late Ottoman period admit that these acts of mass violence were not part of the genocide (a few experts disagree, but they are in minority). I have no clue where “more genocide was carried out through 1929” popped out from. By 1923, most pockets of the remaining Armenians were eradicated. If you think that the heaviest (?!) years of official Turkish government action (?!) were 1915-1917, it is your personal problem. Dozens of RSs have been provided here to demonstrate that a large cohort of scholars consider that the genocide lasted well into 1918 and until 1923.] (]) 00:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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:The majority of RS acknowledge that ethnic cleansing also occurred during the TWOI, but don't count it as part of the Armenian genocide. Ditto for the Hamidian massacres which according to many historians had other motivations that distinguish them from genocide. (] · ]) ''']''' 23:43, 22 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::The TWOI started in 1919 and ended in 1923. But the date in the infobox limits the period of genocidal atrocities to 1917. So, I guess, based on your logic, in 1918 Turks, what, took a break from killing, gang-raping, hanging, burning and burying Armenians alive? If there was a continuation of atrocity, whether or not it is “counted” as part of the Armenian Genocide, then the date in infobox must state this unequivocally. As for “the majority of RS”, lol. The majority of RS acknowledge the number of mass murdered Armenians as being 1.5 million. Should I remind you what rounded figure was cooked up in the lede sentence of this article or you'll have mercy on me?] (]) 00:40, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::And I’m still waiting, patiently and for all other editors here to see, to be redirected to a Misplaced Pages policy where it is stated firmly and unequivocally that, in the case where there are two or more equally extensively used terms or toponyms in the RSs, you editors have the right to make a selection in favor of one term to the detriment of the other. This will be the FIFTH time I’m asking this simple question.] (]) 00:49, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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== Proposing Text A to be replaced by Text B == |
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I hereby solemnly and simply propose to (a) either replace a relatively recently cooked up toponymic invention “eastern Anatolia” with a more geographically and historically correct and more neutral term “eastern Asia Minor” or (b) indicate that “eastern Anatolia” is also known as “eastern Asia Minor” and use both terms interchangeably in the text of this unrivalled article. This proposal is based on the fact that much larger number of Reliable Sources (please visit Archives in this talk) refer to the area where the bulk of the Armenian Genocide had been perpetrated, using names other than “eastern Anatolia”, such as, for example, “Ottoman Armenia”, “Turkish Armenia”, “Western Armenia”, “eastern Asia Minor”, “Western Asia”, etc. I personally proposed but have to repeat especially for those editors who have eyes but don't see, to use “eastern Asia Minor”. Please visit Misplaced Pages’s own article ], where an equally extensively used alternative term “Asia Minor” is mentioned.] (]) 16:52, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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== Proposing Text A to be substantiated by Text B == |
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To bring the following text in the introductory section: “Massacres and ethnic cleansing of Armenian survivors continued through the Turkish War of Independence after World War I, carried out by Turkish nationalists” to conformity with the partially indicated date in infobox: 1915-1917, I hereby simply propose to make the following clarifying addition in infobox. "Date 1915-1917, continuing well into 1918 and even into 1923". I stand ready to provide scores of RSs supporting this addition.] (]) 17:29, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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:Ok, let's try this. Provide some of the RS but without sources we can't change it. ] (]) 17:50, 23 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:The suggested wording is self contradictory. (] · ]) ''']''' 21:58, 23 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::If there’s a will to improve this article, the wording can always be modified. But, I’m sorry to say, so far you’ve shown no will whatsoever to make alterations to your poorly drafted text, despite the fact that tons of RSs had been presented especially for such despicable text fragments as your voluntary rounding-up of the number of victims to “around one million” and your statement that the “two thousand years of Armenian civilization” were tied up to some never-before-heard “eastern Anatolia”.] (]) 22:50, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Davidian |
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::Of course I would double check the sourcing before any approval. And I would strongly recommend to provide accessible sources, but it can also accessible over the Misplaced Pages Library. But I wouldn't approve of a change on a contested FA I haven't read the source of it. ] (]) 22:06, 23 April 2023 (UTC) |
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== The events of 1915 as a period of inter-ethnic conflict == |
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{{atop |
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| status = Closed |
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| result = OP should note, this is not a place for ] and this is ]. See discussions at ] |
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}} |
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:] (] · ]) ''']''' 18:02, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::I said "other than this one (] · ]) ''']'''". Are you deaf and dumb?] (]) 18:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::You pinged us. ] (] / ]) 18:17, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:As an uninvolved administrator... I'm not sure what sort of intervention you're looking for here. To be clear, administrators also do not have the final call on content decisions, as they are instead determined by a consensus of all editors. ] (] | ]) 18:20, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thanks for this. What administrative actions do they perform then? Could you elaborate?] (]) 18:21, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::Uh, all sorts of stuff? You can see some information on the role at ]. ] (] | ]) 18:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Thank you for responding to my inquiry. Have a nice day.] (]) 18:26, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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:::::I don't remember that there has ever been a consensus on this Talk page re: the number of Armenians killed, Armenian total population numbers, and the name of historical Armenian habitat. The author's and editors' highhandedness must therefore be reported and an administrative sanction imposed. Will look into ] for that. Thanks again.] (]) 18:39, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian |
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==Note to self: new sources== |
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*{{cite book |last1=Akçam |first1=Taner |title=The Cambridge World History of Genocide: Volume 3: Genocide in the Contemporary Era, 1914–2020 |date=2023 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |isbn=978-1-108-76711-8 |pages=67–92 |chapter=The Armenian Genocide: An Overview}} |
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*{{cite journal |last1=Akçam |first1=Taner |title=Top-Down and Local Violence in the Late Ottoman Empire: The Role of Security Concerns and a Century of “Accumulated Experience” |journal=Journal of Genocide Research |date=2024 |volume=26 |issue=2 |pages=121–141 |doi=10.1080/14623528.2022.2127488}} |
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==Sayfo== |
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Should the introduction not include the ]? This was the systematic genocide of the Assyrian, Chaldean, and Syriac peoples, committed by the Ottoman Empire and their collaborators, the Kurdish tribes and other local Muslim Arab populations of the area. The intro should read something like this: |
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::{{Cquote|quote= The '''Armenian genocide'''{{efn|Also known by ].|name=names}}' was the systematic destruction of the ] and the ] peoples in the ] during ].''}} |
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Considering the fact that, based on various sources, the number of Assyrians alone (not including Chaldean) who fell victim to Ottoman/Turkish, Kurdish, and Arab persecutions between 1895 and 1925 was 800,000-1,100,000. Of these, between 150,000-400,000 (most reliable number is considered to be around 250,000 Assyrians) perished in the ], which occurred concurrently with and was closely related to the Armenian genocide (which in reality was more of a Christian genocide than just an Armenian genocide). Assyrian and Chaldean deaths comprised almost half of the genocide deaths in the "Armenian genocide." ] (]) 21:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Sources: |
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The events of 1915 were a tragic period in the history of the Ottoman Empire and its people. Turks, Armenians, and many others suffered immensely from the effects of war, famine, disease, and violence. However, the Armenian claim that these events constitute a genocide perpetrated by Turks against Armenians is a misleading. Instead, the events of 1915 should be understood in their historical and political context, where both sides experienced losses and atrocities. |
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*<small> * {{cite book |last=Donef |first=Racho |chapter=Sayfo and Denialism: A New Field of Activity for Agents of the Turkish Republic |title=Let Them Not Return: Sayfo – The Genocide Against the Assyrian, Syriac, and Chaldean Christians in the Ottoman Empire |year=2017 |publisher=] |pages=205–218 |isbn=978-1-78533-499-3}}</small> |
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*<small> {{cite book |last1=Gaunt |first1=David |last2=Atto |first2=Naures |last3=Barthoma |first3=Soner O. |chapter=Introduction: Contextualizing the Sayfo in the First World War |title=Let Them Not Return: Sayfo – The Genocide Against the Assyrian, Syriac, and Chaldean Christians in the Ottoman Empire |year=2017 |publisher=] |pages=1–32 |isbn=978-1-78533-499-3 |ref={{sfnref|Gaunt et al.|2017}}}}</small> |
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*<small>* {{cite book |last=Gaunt |first=David |title=A Question of Genocide: Armenians and Turks at the End of the Ottoman Empire |title-link=A Question of Genocide |date=2011 |publisher=] |isbn=978-0-19-978104-1 |pages=245–259 |chapter=The Ottoman Treatment of the Assyrians}}</small> |
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In 1914, First World War, one of the deadliest conflicts in history, broke out, which threatened the survival of the Ottoman Empire. The Empire faced multiple enemies on different fronts, including Russia, Britain, France, and Italy. Some of these powers had been seeking to exploit the weakness of the Empire and to carve out spheres of influence in its territories since the 1870s. They also supported and encouraged nationalist movements among some of the ethnic and religious groups that lived under Ottoman rule, such as the Armenians. |
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] (]) 21:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The Armenians were one of the oldest Christian communities in Anatolia, and had enjoyed a relatively peaceful coexistence with their Muslim neighbors for centuries. However, some Armenian groups became influenced by nationalist ideologies in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and began to demand autonomy or independence from the Ottoman Empire. Some of them formed armed militias and engaged in terrorist activities against Ottoman officials and civilians. Some others collaborated with the invading Russian army, hoping to create an ethnically homogeneous Armenian state in eastern Anatolia. They instigated rebels in major towns notably in Zeitun, Van, Shabin-Karahisar, Urfa and Musadagh, where thousands of Turkish and Kurdish civilians were murdered by the Armenian forces. |
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:Which sources describe the Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac genocides as part of the Armenian genocide? The Wiki article for ] distinguishes it from the Armenian genocide. ] ] 05:11, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The Ottoman government saw these actions as a serious threat to its security and territorial integrity, and decided to relocate some of the Armenian population from the war zones to other parts of the Empire. This decision was not aimed at exterminating or punishing the Armenians as a whole, but at preventing further rebellions and massacres. However, the relocation process was poorly planned and executed, and resulted in many deaths and hardships for the Armenians who were forced to leave their homes. Many of them died from hunger, disease, exposure, or attacks by bandits or hostile tribes along the way. The Ottoman authorities failed to protect them adequately or to provide them with sufficient food and medical care. |
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::It's complicated, but IMO most of the Sayfo cannot be considered simply a part or even a spill over of the Armenian genocide. (] · ]) ''']''' 06:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== End date of 1917 instead of 1923 == |
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It is true that many innocent Armenians lost their lives during this tragic period, and we should expresses sorrow and sympathy for their suffering. However, we should also remember that many Turks and Kurds also died or were killed during this time, either from war-related causes or from Armenian attacks. The Ottoman government had no premeditated plan or intention to annihilate the Armenians as a distinct group, which is a necessary criterion for defining an act as genocide according to international law. Furthermore, the term genocide is anachronistic and inappropriate for describing the events of 1915, since it was coined after World War II and cannot be retroactively applied to historical cases. |
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I strongly oppose the change of the date to 1917 as opposed to 1923. |
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===References=== |
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Genocide was not only committed by the CUP/Ottoman Empire, but also by TNC and Ataturk. The genocide continued in systematic massacres of Armenian (many of who returned from deportations), but also in economic and cultural erasure. |
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# Binark. İ. (1995). Arşiv Belgelerine Göre Kafkaslar’da ve Anadolu’da Ermeni Mezâlimi/Armenian Violence and Massacre in the Caucasus and Anatolia Based on Archives–Vol. I (1906-1918) and Vol. II (1919). ''Başbakanlık Devlet Arşivleri Genel Müdürlüğü Yayınları, Ankara'' |
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The article discusses how the Genocide ‘ended 2000 years of Armenian residence to the region.’ If that is the case, you simply have to expand the date to 1923, because TNC/ Ataturk’s policy were the final nail in the coffin. |
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# Çiçek, K. (2012). ''The Great War and the forced migration of Armenians''. Athol Books. |
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From systematic massacres, such as the aftermath of the Battle of Maras; to seizure of most Armenian property, and the systematic destruction of Armenian heritage (Ani being one of several examples); it’s hard to justify their exclusion. |
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# Çiçek, K. (2020). ''The Armenians of Musa Dagh, 1915–1939: A Story of Insurgency and Flight''. Lexington Books. |
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Would like to hear the moderators argument, of keeping those events-which truly did end Armenian presence in the region-from inclusion in the genocide. Thank you. ] (]) 07:39, 8 January 2025 (UTC) |
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# Çiçek, K. (2010). Relocation of Ottoman Armenians in 1915: A Reassesment. ''Review of Armenians Studies'', ''22'', 115-134. |
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# Dyer, G. (1976). Turkish ‘falsifiers’ and Armenian ‘deceivers’: historiography and the Armenian massacres. ''Middle Eastern Studies'', ''12''(1), 99-107. |
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# Erickson, E. J. (2013). ''Ottomans and Armenians: A Study in Counterinsurgency'' (p. 119). New York: Palgrave Macmillan. |
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# Erickson, E. J. (2008). The Armenians and Ottoman military policy, 1915. ''War in History'', ''15''(2), 141-167. |
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# Gauin, M. (2015). “Proving” a “Crime against Humanity”?. Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs, 35(1), 141-157. |
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# Güçlü, Y. (2012). A Question of Genocide: Armenians and Turks at the End of the Ottoman Empire. |
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# Halaçoğlu, Y. (2002). ''Facts on the Relocation of Armenians (1914-1918)'' (No. 94). Turkish Historical Society Printing House. |
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# Halaçoğlu, Y. (2008). ''The story of 1915: what happened to the Ottoman Armenians?'' (No. 113). Turkish Historical Society. |
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# Halaçoğlu, Y. (2006). ''Die Armenierfrage''. Wieser. |
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# Lewis, B. (1961). ''The emergence of modern Turkey'' (No. 135). Oxford University Press. |
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# Lewy, G. (2005). Revisiting the Armenian genocide. ''Insight Turkey'', 89-99. |
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# Lewy, G. (2005). ''The Armenian massacres in Ottoman Turkey: A disputed genocide''. University of Utah Press. |
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# Lewy, G. (2007). Can there be genocide without the intent to commit genocide?. ''Journal of Genocide Research'', ''9''(4), 661-674. |
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# McCarthy, J., Arslan, E., & Taskiran, C. (2006). ''The Armenian Rebellion at Van'' (p. 282). Salt Lake City: University of Utah Press. |
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# McCarthy, J. (2003). Missionaries and the American Image of the Turks. In ''Turkish-American Relations'' (pp. 49-71). Routledge. |
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# McCarthy, J., Arslan, E., & Taskiran, C. (2006). ''The Armenian Rebellion at Van'' (p. 282). Salt Lake City: University of Utah Press. |
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# Palabıyık, M. S. (2015). ''Understanding the Turkish-Armenian Controversy Over 1915''. Beta. |
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# Sarinay, Y. (2011). The Relocations (Tehcir) of Armenians and the Trials of 1915–16. ''Middle East Critique'', ''20''(3), 299-315. |
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# Sarınay, Y. (2001). Ermeniler Tarafından Yapılan Katliam Belgeleri/Documents on the Massacre Perpetrated by Armenians–Vol. I (1914-1919) and Vol. II (1919-1921). ''Ankara: Başbakanlık Devlet Arşivleri Genel Müdürlüğü''. |
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# Stone, N. (2004). Armenia and Turkey. ''TLS-The Times Literary Supplement'', (5298), 17-17. |
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# Yavuz, M. H. (2011). Contours of scholarship on Armenian-Turkish relations. ''Middle East Critique'', ''20''(3), 231-251. |
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] (]) 23:10, 23 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:No. To start with, {{tq|thousands of Turkish and Kurdish civilians were murdered by the Armenian forces}} during purported Armenian uprisings in 1915 is a complete lie. (] · ]) ''']''' 00:06, 24 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:As it's possible to make the case either way, this is why I support removing the infobox. However, most sources end it at 1916, 1917, or 1918 so I don't support changing it. (] · ]) ''']''' 14:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) |
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::A more nuanced version of the infobox, but less helpful to our readers, would go something like follows: |
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::This is a fact. It is clearly documented in contemporary reports. To write an impartial history of 1915, it is necessary to study the mutual killings. |
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::Location |
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::* The telegram sent by the head official of the Mahmudi district of Van to the Ministry of Interior on 4 March 1915, describing the Armenian atrocities in the region cited in Kamuran Gürün's ''The Armenian File'', |
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::Ottoman Empire (but also parts of Iran and arguably the Republic of Turkey) |
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::{{blockquote|Those who were killed in the village of Merkehu: 41 men, 14 women<br>Those who were killed after being raped: 4 women<br>Those who were killed in the village of Ishtuju: 7 men, 4 women<br>Those who are alive among those who have been raped: 5 women<br>The wounded: 3 men, 2 women}} |
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::Date |
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::* Massacres of prisoners and Muslim population in the neighborhood of Kars and Ardahan, |
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::1915–1917 (some sources start at 1914 or earlier, and you can see 1916, 1918, 1923 or the present as end dates) |
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::{{blockquote|The number of Muslims committed to the guards of Armenians and '''massacred by them after being inflicted physical pains upon and struck by the butt of rifles reached 30,000'''; the Armenians serving in the Ottoman army were deserting and deliberately surrendering to Russians to disclose information about the said army; Armenians from the Caucasus were first allowing to be taken prisoners by the Ottomans and afterwards evading and delivering to the Russians the intelligence they gathered.|title=Documents on the Massacres Perpetrated by Armenians|source=Massacre Of Prisoners And Muslim Population in The Neighborhood Of Kars And Ardahan}} |
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::Target |
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::* The telegram sent from the prime ministry to the interior ministry taken from ''The Armenian File'', |
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::Ottoman Armenians (but some would bundle in Assyrians and perhaps Greeks) |
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::{{blockquote|Some of the Armenians residing in quarters near military areas are hindering the activities of the Imperial Army which is engaged in protecting the Ottoman borders against the enemies of the State. They combine their efforts and action with the enemy, they join the ranks of the enemy. '''They organize attacks against the Armed Forces and innocent people, they engage in aggression, murder, terror, and pillage of Ottoman cities and towns''', they provide the enemy with provisions, and manifest their audacity against fortified places.}} |
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::Attack type |
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::* General Harbord's report on Armenia, |
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::Genocide, death march, Islamization |
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::{{blockquote|We know, however, so much to be a fact that the Armenians in the new State are carrying on operations in view of '''exterminating the Mussulmen element''' in obedience to orders from the Armenian corps commander. We have had copies of their orders under our eyes. That the Armenians of Erivan are following''' a policy of extermination against the Mussulmen '''and this wave of sanguinary savagery has spread right up to our frontier is also established by the fact of the presence within our borders of numerous Mussulmen fleeing from death on the other side. The government of Erivan has, on the other hand, resorted to direct acts of provocation such as the practice of gunfire this side of the border.|author=James G. Harbord|title=Conditions in the Middle East: The Report of Military Mission to Armenia|source=p. 35}} ] (]) 06:50, 24 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::Deaths |
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:::The only sources that could support your claim of {{tq|thousands}} are possibly #2 and #4, but even assuming these sources are credible (which I highly doubt) they both appear to be talking about Armenian reprisal killings '''after''' the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia, when the genocide in those areas had already occurred. You appear to be reversing cause and effect. |
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::600,000–1.5 million |
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:::This article is based on recent, scholarly, non-] sources. Nothing you provided qualifies. (] · ]) ''']''' 06:58, 24 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::Perpetrators |
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::::The document #2 is dated 6 March 1915, before the deportation order is taken; The document #4 describes the revenge killings after the deportation but this cannot justify the violence against civilians. |
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::Committee of Union and Progress (but also random ottoman Muslims, Kurdish tribes, ottoman bureaucracy etc.) (] · ]) ''']''' 14:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC) |
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::::* This excerpt is from the document sent by the German Ambassador Wangenheim to the Germany Foreign Ministry dated 19 May 1915, |
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::::{{blockquote|On 17 May 1915, Van was occupied by the Russian army. Armenians joined the ranks of the enemy and '''started massacring the Muslims'''. 80,000 Muslims are now fleeing towards Bitlis.|cited in Nejat Göyünç's ''Osmanlı İdaresinde Ermeniler/Armenians under Ottoman Rule'' and Yusuf Halaçoğlu's ''Facts on the Armenian Relocation''}} |
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::::* The report dated 1916 on the massacre committed in Bitlis and Van by the Russian and Armenian forces |
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::::{{blockquote|During the occupation of Van and Bitlis terrible cruelties were commited by Russian and Armenian brigands against the muslim population; cossack cavalry arriving in Bitlis, massacred muslim families and children fleeing the Armenians; hearing that the Russians were coming to Van, Armenians uprose and pursued the fleeing muslim population trying to escape and tragically killed them,''' massacred thousands of women, young girls and men '''among those who didn't emigrate; all the population of the villages of Zive, Mollakâsım, Şeyhkara, Şeyhayne, Ayans, Paksi, Zorâbâd and many other villages, who stayed unable to emigrate were''' all exterminated '''and not a single person escaped the carnage; on the eve of the arrival of the Russians to Dir, a town attached to Hakkari, Armenians made irruptions on the roads and '''massacred all the male Kurdish population''' of the villages situated on these roads and cut up into chunks with daggers and swords more than thousand small children the oldest less than three years and used the cut and broken bodies as trenches and ravished more than four hundred Kurdish girls, the old women being killed.|title=Documents on the Massacres Perpetrated by Armenians|source=p. 41}} ] (]) 07:35, 24 April 2023 (UTC) |
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There is a miscount in the Infobox to the right of the “Armenians in the Ottoman Empire” subtitle. Another of the editors’ absurdities. Listed are five vilayets but then the text says that they represented “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. Sivas, the sixth one, is missing, dearest editors. And one falsification of an RS text in ref. 4. Nowhere on p. 279 does Kévorkian (The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History) say that these vilayets were “the six most heavily Armenian-populated Ottoman vilayets”. This is what the author says on p. 279, ad verbum: “According to the figures presented in the previous chapter, of the 2,925 towns and villages of the empire in which Armenians lived, no fewer than 2,084 were located on the Armenian high plateau, properly speaking – that is, in the vilayets of Erzerum, Van, Bitlis, Mamuret ul-Aziz, and Dyarbekir.” By the way, did I mention that Kévorkian uses “the Armenian high plateau” and not “Anatolia” in this particular clause? Cheers73.173.64.115 (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
I understand there are Misplaced Pages editors who have responsibilities or an ability to perform certain administrative actions, called “editors with extra privileges”, if I’m not mistaken? Could anyone visiting this Talk page (other than these two, for the love of God, (t · c) buidhe and Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs)) help with how such editors can be contacted? The highhandedness of the authors and editors of this article, who refuse to implement RS-based edits containing significant viewpoints in violation of Misplaced Pages’s policies and who are involved in falsification of original source texts, needs to stop for the common good of the entire Misplaced Pages community. Thank you in advance.73.173.64.115 (talk) 17:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)Davidian
Considering the fact that, based on various sources, the number of Assyrians alone (not including Chaldean) who fell victim to Ottoman/Turkish, Kurdish, and Arab persecutions between 1895 and 1925 was 800,000-1,100,000. Of these, between 150,000-400,000 (most reliable number is considered to be around 250,000 Assyrians) perished in the Sayfo, which occurred concurrently with and was closely related to the Armenian genocide (which in reality was more of a Christian genocide than just an Armenian genocide). Assyrian and Chaldean deaths comprised almost half of the genocide deaths in the "Armenian genocide." FJZAJV (talk) 21:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
I strongly oppose the change of the date to 1917 as opposed to 1923.
Genocide was not only committed by the CUP/Ottoman Empire, but also by TNC and Ataturk. The genocide continued in systematic massacres of Armenian (many of who returned from deportations), but also in economic and cultural erasure.
The article discusses how the Genocide ‘ended 2000 years of Armenian residence to the region.’ If that is the case, you simply have to expand the date to 1923, because TNC/ Ataturk’s policy were the final nail in the coffin.
From systematic massacres, such as the aftermath of the Battle of Maras; to seizure of most Armenian property, and the systematic destruction of Armenian heritage (Ani being one of several examples); it’s hard to justify their exclusion.
Would like to hear the moderators argument, of keeping those events-which truly did end Armenian presence in the region-from inclusion in the genocide. Thank you. Nlblough (talk) 07:39, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
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