| Revision as of 18:21, 7 June 2023 view sourceSandyGeorgia (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, Mass message senders, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors279,025 edits →Roxy the dog: that's all← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 18:08, 8 January 2025 view source Moscow Connection (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers62,482 edits →User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating WP:BEFORE: typo/grammar | ||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
| {{Short description| |
{{Short description|Noticeboard for reporting incidents to administrators}}<noinclude><!-- Inside the noinclude, because this page is transcluded.-->{{/Header}}</noinclude>{{clear}} | ||
| {{stack begin|float=right|clear=false|margin=false}} | |||
| <noinclude><!-- Inside the noinclude, because this page is transcluded.-->{{/Header}}</noinclude>__TOC__{{clear}} | |||
| {{User:MiszaBot/config | {{User:MiszaBot/config | ||
| |archiveheader = {{Administrators' noticeboard navbox all}} | |archiveheader = {{Administrators' noticeboard navbox all}} | ||
| |maxarchivesize = |
|maxarchivesize =800K | ||
| |counter = |
|counter = 1175 | ||
| |algo = old( |
|algo = old(72h) | ||
| |key = 740a8315fa94aa42eb96fbc48a163504d444ec0297a671adeb246c17b137931c | |key = 740a8315fa94aa42eb96fbc48a163504d444ec0297a671adeb246c17b137931c | ||
| |archive = Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive%(counter)d | |archive = Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive%(counter)d | ||
| |headerlevel=2 | |headerlevel=2 | ||
| }} | }} | ||
| {{stack end}} | |||
| <!-- | <!-- | ||
| NEW ENTRIES GO AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE NOT HERE | NEW ENTRIES GO AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE NOT HERE | ||
| NEW ENTRIES GO AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE NOT HERE | NEW ENTRIES GO AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE NOT HERE | ||
| NEW ENTRIES GO AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE NOT HERE--> | NEW ENTRIES GO AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE NOT HERE--> | ||
| == Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from ] == | |||
| ], a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use <nowiki>{{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~</nowiki> on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --] (]) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics ( and ), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is , again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute. | |||
| ::Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --] (]) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally and , despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, . I asked him to , but . | |||
| ::::I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already , the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please.] ] 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. ] ] 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::And here's explicit transphobia. It's her '''daughter''', no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == User:GenoV84 == | |||
| *:*'''Comment''' I would suggest Darwin review ]. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. ] (]) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{Archive top|status=] page blocked|result=for wiki lawyering. {{Non-admin closure}}--] (]) 08:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
| *:*:@] I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? ] ] 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::@], the bottom line is that ''you don't get to question that.'' As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is '''not''' the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them ''any'' good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. ] (]) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. ] ] 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this ] (]) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read ]' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. ] (]) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. ] ] 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including ]) - otherwise you will be blocked. ]] 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. ] ] 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here. | |||
| *:*::::::Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there. | |||
| *:*::::::And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the ] area.] (]) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::I would suggest a '''topic ban''' is imposed. ]] 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::I would '''support''' a topic ban from ]. ] (]) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. ] (]) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. ]] 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? ] ] 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. ]] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. ] ] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::@] nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. ] ] 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. ] (]) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. ] ] 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::You fundementally misunderstand the scope of ] and the concept of topic area as well. ] (]) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. ] ] 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::::I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. ] (]) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::::::::it was a collective you. ] ] 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::::::::The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. ] (]) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. ] (]) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::None of this is relevant. We follow sources and ]. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. ]] 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've continued to post where? ] ] 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? ] ] 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? ]] 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have ], and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -] (]) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. ] ] 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -] (]) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? ] ] 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] This one. -] (]) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@] I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. ] ] 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::@] Easiest way to defuse this is to post a '''bolded''' and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -] (]) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" ] ] 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. ]] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? ] (]) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. ] ] 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? ] (]) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. ] ] 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? ] (]) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 ] ] 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. ] (]) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. ] ] 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around ] (]) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::@] no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? ] ] 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::Because of edits like this . ] (]) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? ] ] 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? ] (]) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? ] ] 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. ] (]) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::::I ''answered'' a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. ] ] 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::::Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. ] (]) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::::::I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. ] ] 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::::::In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. ] (]) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. ] (]) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{Pagelinks|Habsburg monarchy}} | |||
| <br>{{Userlinks|GenoV84}} | |||
| :Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway.] ] 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I'll try to keep this short. In April, I made to ] and explained all of them using edit summaries. About a month later, ] abruptly reverted those changes and on my talk, that didn’t explain what parts of my changes they opposed. I replied, they didn't respond, so I reverted, they didn't contest. About a day later, ] reverted my changes, calling them disruptive. They left a standard disruptive edits warning on my talk. I asked what aspects of my changes they didn't like, they said they were disruptive. | |||
| :I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it.]] 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. ] ] 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary ], broadly construed, as in effect.]] 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@] yes, that's correct. ] ] 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about ] in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? ] ] 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::@] You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me ''in the English Misplaced Pages?'' ] ] 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::@] Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? ] ] 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Would recommend that Darwin ''walk away'' from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. ] (]) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Despite a prolonged chat in which they replied three more times, GenoV84 did everything to not talk content and insisted that my changes were disruptive without offering a single explanation as to why that is. In my penultimate message, I asked them—again—as directly as it gets, what they didn’t like about my changes. They were—yet again—simply dismissed as disruptive. It was more than evident, at this point, that GenoV84 just loved ] and couldn't ]. | |||
| ;Clarification | |||
| I responded with and reverted. Three days later, when I thought we were finally done, they resumed their efforts, reverted and left , labelling my changes as disruptive once again. At this point it was evident that this was gonna be a never-ending skirmish about something laughably evident. So I ], GenoV84 was unanimously opposed and the RfC was ] closed a week later. Now the thing is, I'm not a newbie, I've been on WP for 8 years (this is a ]) and have some experience on how to deal with things like this. However, if GenoV84 had the same interaction with an actual newcomer, I'm fairly certain the newbie wouldn't have gone through the trouble and quit the project. GenoV84's actions are—ironically—the very definition of ] (and newbie biting). I believe conduct like this, warrants at least a sysop warning. ] (]) 12:02, 27 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Hello @] - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in ], to the point of eventually here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much. | |||
| :Due to the ] by the editor ] on the article ] in the past two weeks, after which I have suggested them to settle this matter on the talk page and ] before deleting relevant content from WP articles (, , , ), for which they have been warned by various established editors for the exact same behavior on other articles before me, I left a warning on their talk page and explained to them the reason for reverting their edits with various replies, and I never bit him, as he falsely claims, ] why their edits were unconstructive and have been reverted, and invited them to collaborate with other editors and read the ] (, , , , ). | |||
| *As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ], which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that. | |||
| *The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here. | |||
| *Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on ] and ] or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan. | |||
| *And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. ] ] 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposed Community Sanctions=== | |||
| :] (, , , , ). User23242343 seems to have taken this warning, and the other ones that were left on their talk page before mine, far too personally and proceeded with ] and ], first on their talk page and now here on ANI (), for the same reasons as I did: unexplained removal of relevant informations and sourced content. | |||
| I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this. | |||
| :Moreover, the issue regarding the content dispute ], therefore this report on ANI is completely senseless and looks like a petty revenge for a simple warning left on their talk page. User23242343 is definitely ]. ] (]) 17:53, 27 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::You mean the "persistent and unjustified removal of historically relevant informations" that an RfC just unanimously confirmed? Everyone can leave warnings. If I left you an unjustified final warning on your talk and you disregard that warning, does that give me the right to get you blocked? As I've said before: one warning is from you, one from the aforementioned editor Vichycombo, one from an editor that subsequently admitted they were wrong and the last one from a sysos, because my edit summary wasn't very elaborate and—admittedly—this one is on me. Anyways, before this becomes a never-ending ping-pong game, '''I invite editors to take a look at the relevant venues''' (it's not that much to read, believe me) and make an impression for themselves: | |||
| '''Proposed''' DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to ] broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::* ] | |||
| ::* ] | |||
| ::* ] | |||
| ::– ] (]) 02:17, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::You keep talking about this content dispute as some kind of ] between you and me, but that's totally not the case and ] demonstrates that literally nobody was against me, they just expressed their comments about the question that you asked about the Habsburg monarchy in the same way as I did. Misplaced Pages is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts, carry on ideological battles, or nurture prejudice, hatred, or fear towards other editors. Making personal battles out of Misplaced Pages discussions goes directly against WP policies and goals. | |||
| :::], and yet you still don't seem to understand that they did so in order to help you, and warnings are not supposed to be taken so personally to open a useless ANI discussion as you did. Longstanding editors and newcomers are being warned for various reasons all the time, are they all supposed to come here on ANI and attack the editors that warned them because they feel offended as you because of a warning message? I have no reason to take your arguments seriously. | |||
| :::] (]) 06:27, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I like how you claim the moral high ground and accuse me of making personal attacks when a quick look at your block log and talk page reveal that you have been sanctioned for just that on various occasions. | |||
| *'''Support''' -] (]) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This isn't about revenge. I got a lot of unjustified warnings and never reported any of the warning editors to ANI. You did everything in your hand to stonewall your revision and dodged an actual conversation about article content countless times. This is the very definition of disruptive editing. Everything you said about WP policies and guidelines is true, so I recommend you actually stick to them. I reported you because this is no way to treat newcomers or any editors for that matter and is simple ] conduct. ] (]) 07:27, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -] (]) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::False, ]. I left a warning on your talk page and explained to you the reason for reverting your disruptive edits with various replies, and I never bit you, as you falsely claimed, ] why your edits were unconstructive and have been reverted, and invited you to collaborate with other editors and read the ] (, , , , ). I suggest you to stop with your endless ], ], and ] towards me with the only purpose of getting me blocked, ], and ] instead of reporting users on ANI for no reason other than being offended due to a simple warning left on your talk page. As if that wasn't enough of a demonstration of your ], this grudge that you keep against me is a waste of time about ], and you know it. Move on. ] (]) 08:30, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. ''PS'' - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. ] (]) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Funny that you're accusing the other user of Wikilawyering, while literally filling your entire run-on sentence paragraph with links to policies & essays. | |||
| *:Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Your edits were found to be incorrect by an RfC. You lost. Time to back down. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:02, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support topic ban and IBAN''', both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. ]] 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::{{reply to|HandThatFeeds}} I didn't lose anything, because ], not a ]. In case you didn't notice or you didn't read the aforementioned RfC, the editors that commented on that RfC were themselves confused by the fact that ''nobody'' affirmed that the Habsburg monarchy and the Holy Roman Empire were conterminous ({{tq|"It's not clear to me that there's any actual disagreement on this point, are there sources that claim that they were conterminous?"}}). In other words, the editor who requested the RfC was ]. | |||
| *'''Support'''. Just read through the above and ''good grief''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::{{reply to|HandThatFeeds}} Furthermore, despite the fact that ], User23242343 was evidently ''not'' satisfied with the result of the RfC and proceeded with this useless ANI report about ] for ], of which only one was mine, filled with ] and ] due to their ] (, , , , , ). You clearly have no idea of what you're talking about. ] and move on. ] (]) 17:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. ] (]) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Yeah, I'm not going to be told to ] by someone with a chip on their shoulder, who seems determined to throw an alphabet soup of policy & essays at the wall. | |||
| ::::::::You framed your earlier argument on the talk page to require User ] to satisfy you: {{tq|User23242343, please provide a further explanation for your edits and academic, reliable references which demonstrate that the Holy Roman Empire and the Habsburg monarchy are allegedly unrelated political entities.}} | |||
| ::::::::That's not how it works here. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:04, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::{{reply to|HandThatFeeds}} I asked for a ] that User23242343 didn't even care to provide in order to support their viewpoint, while I ''did'' provide one to support my viewpoint and summarized the content of that source in the RfC, as you can see: {{tq|Considering that the Habsburg monarchy and the territories upon which the ] used to rule over for centuries, including the ] and several other European kingdoms (], ], ], etc.), are consistently referred to as a "]" or "]" by contemporary historians, it looks like there's a great overlap between the Habsburgs and the kingdoms that they used to rule. I wouldn't consider them as a single political entity but rather a confederate statehood. See the following ]: {{cite book |author-last=Burkhardt |author-first=Julia |year=2022 |chapter=PART IV: BETWEEN COINCIDENCE AND INTENTION – Albert II of Habsburg's Composite Monarchy (1437–39) and Its Significance for Central Europe |editor1-last=Srodecki |editor1-first=Paul |editor2-last=Kersken |editor2-first=Norbert |editor3-last=Petrauskas |editor3-first=Rimvydas |title=Unions and Divisions: New Forms of Rule in Medieval and Renaissance Europe |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=xyCcEAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover |location=] and ] |publisher=] |edition=1st |series=Themes in Medieval and Early Modern History |doi=10.4324/9781003199007-21 |isbn=9781032057521}}"}} We don't write original researches nor opinion pieces; we write content based on ] in accordance with the ]. ]. ] (]) 18:14, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::GenoV84 I asked you countless times what is it '''specifically''' you oppose about my edits? What '''specifically''' is disruptive about them? What '''specifically''' is it that you want to change about the article? I don't need to provide reliable sources for removing content that lacks just that. As you have mentioned, correctly, the RfC found it ludicrous that this is even a thing. So how on God's earth is it "disruptive" to change exactly that; especially, when I explained, in my edit summaries, that I was removing said part because the ''Habsburg monarchy was not conterminous with the Holy Roman Empire''? ] (]) 18:37, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::] and suggested you to open a discussion on the article's talk page ], ''three times'' (, , ). I had to do it myself because you continued to revert my edits without a previous discussion on the article's talk page (). That's all about it. And now that the RfC is closed and consensus has been established on the article's talk page (about ], but whatever....), what is the purpose of this thread which revolves around a content dispute that is ''already over'' and no one cares about? This entire discussion is pointless. ] (]) 19:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::You don't wanna answer the question, got it. ] (]) 19:36, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I see you won't drop the stick with regards to bludgeoning the discussion around policy/essay links. | |||
| ::::::::::And you completely ignored my point: there '''will not be''' sources that say something is unrelated to something else. That's why I linked "proving a negative," you're asking User to provide evidence something does '''not''' exist. You might as well be asking for sources to prove there's not an invisible unicorn in my backyard. | |||
| ::::::::::At this point, your continued insistence on arguing this topic is becoming disruptive. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:44, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::{{reply to|HandThatFeeds}} Instead of repeatedly attacking me with ] and ] ] (, ), you should tell that to the editor who started this thread out of nowhere about a content dispute that is already over ], which is a blatant violation of the WP policy ], as ] pointed out before; which means that this ANI report shouldn't even exist in the first place. I find that to be a more concerning matter than a RfC who has been closed since 26 May, but anyway, this discussion is over. ] and move on. ] (]) 19:36, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Quit telling me to move on. You do not get to dictate this. The aggressive party here is you. The issue of ] is for admins to deal with, you don't get to invalidate the entire report. Drop the stick yourself. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 20:47, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::{{reply to|HandThatFeeds}} Everyone can see that you have been aggressive towards me without being provocked since your very first reply on this thread, as the diffs clearly demonstrate (, ). ]. Bye. ] (]) 20:56, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::Seems to me like you could do well to read over your last link and contrast its advice with your behavior here. ] (]) 21:32, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::Since you're resorting to insults, I'll leave it there. You're not going to last long at this rate. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 16:44, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :It seems to me whatever the legitimacy of this alternative account, this thread violates ]. While you've disclosed this is an alternative account, you've not disclosed what your normal account is so it should be treated as an undisclosed alternative account as your history with the other account cannot be looked in to. And you're suggesting sanction against another editor, something which can't really be considered to "directly affect the account". ] (]) 14:51, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I get very you're coming from and I'm well aware that alts are a sensitive thing. However, neither policiy nor guideline mandate editors to publically disclose their original accounts. This is a clean start account, that has never once been used abusively and any CheckUser is welcome to vet the veracity of that. ] (]) 15:18, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::P.s. I wasn't aware of ], sorry, but yes, I believe this very well directly affects the account. But if the community decides otherwise, I will withdraw this report. ] (]) 15:25, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :{{a note}} Commenting to prevent automatic bot archiving. ] (]) 17:44, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{reply to|User23242343}} Considering that now you are fully aware of the WP policy ] and that ], your last comment to prevent automatic bot archiving is evidently a violation of the WP policy ], because there's no need to keep this thread open when nobody cares to intervene and do something about it, although I would very much prefer that admins read this thread, intervene, and close it. Your behavior here clearly demonstrates that ] despite the fact that this discussion is already over. ] (]) 18:09, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :{{Comment}} {{reply to|Bishonen}}, {{reply to|HistoryofIran}}, {{reply to|Cullen328}}, {{reply to|Davey2010}}, {{reply to|Carpimaps}}, {{reply to|Nil Einne}}, {{reply to|JayBeeEll}}: I'm sorry for bothering you all but there seems to be no alternative to risolve this dispute between me and the editor who filed this complaint; I propose and support a ] for myself from the articles ], ], and every other Habsburg-related article. To be honest, I don't want anything to do with that topic and with User23242343, ]; I just want to move on and consider these sanctions upon myself to be a viable solution for both of us. ] (]) 18:44, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Page blocks.''' ], a TBAN placed by the community is a rather slow and unwieldy thing: the thread has to be open for several days after the ban is proposed, there has to be a clear consensus for it, with plenty of people commenting (probably more people than are interested in the somewhat narrow subject of the dispute) — bla bla. Instead, much more conveniently, I will page-block you from those two articles and their talkpages. The way you argue in this very ANI discussion — for instance suggesting you needn't abide by the result of the RFC because "I didn't lose anything, because the RfC was a request for comments, not a battleground between editors" and other wikilawyering — shows me this sanction is appropriate. ] | ] 19:04, 3 June 2023 (UTC). | |||
| :{{reply to|Bishonen}} Thank you for understanding that. I fully agree with you about the sanction that you suggested. ] (]) 19:15, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{Archivebottom}} | |||
| :Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. ] (]) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Rangeblock for HazemGM == | |||
| :::That's actually a fair point. -] (]) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent ] impulse. ] (]) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@] You have been misjudging me - It was , actually, if it's worth anything. ] ] 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the ] area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). ] ] 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::If they weren't before they are now... ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Ok, to be clear, I '''oppose''' a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. ] (]) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it ] (]) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. ] ] 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. ] (]) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::@] And those were the only ones, and I immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to . You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. ] ] 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance ] (]) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::@] I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? ] ] 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. ] (]) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::@] I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ ] ] 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? ] (]) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::@] Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? ] ] 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. ] (]) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::@] There was not any "lie", please stop ]. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". ] ] 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. ] (]) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::Darwin has a long history of editing in ] albeit generally less controversially. . ] (]) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::@] That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. ] ] 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::DarwIn ] covers gender ''and'' sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. ] (]) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::@] Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. ] ] 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per Bushranger. ] ] 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. ] (]) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. ] ] 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{Ping|Pppery}} days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. ] (]) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. ] (]) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? ] ] 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::{{replyto|DarwIn}} Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times ], ], ], ], ], ]. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. ] (]) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like ]. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here.] ] 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. ] (]) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. ] ] 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::], I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> | |||
| *:::::::{{Ping|Liz}} Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that.] ] 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::{{reply|DarwIn}} you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. ] (]) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. ] (]) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Support''' - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it. | |||
| :]] 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' - Per GoodDay and Springee. ] (]) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> <small>(he/him; ])</small></span> 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.] (]) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of ] may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer ]. ] (]) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| * <s>'''Support''' TBAN/IBAN</s> '''Weak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN''' - ] suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate ] behavior. ] (]) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Blocked user {{user|HazemGM}} is socking, they essentially admit so , list of IPs used at {{cat|Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of HazemGM}} across two ranges - can we get range blocks please? ]] 17:03, 27 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| : |
::This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.] (]) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
| :::Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. ] (]) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Editing earlier today as {{IP|154.180.176.155}}. ]] 18:05, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::: |
::::Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--] (]) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
| :::::If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. ] (]) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Now at {{IP|154.180.194.118}}. ]] 18:06, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::"A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. ]] 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Editing in last 10 minutes as {{IP|154.180.99.177}}. ]] 17:00, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. ] (]) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::We should also consider a third IP range of HazemGM as well, has began editing the day after GiantSnowman blocked the recently included IP. ] (]) (]) 09:00, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: |
:::::::::No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. ]] 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::::::OK boomer. ] (]) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Rangeblocking {{IPrange|41.35.80.0/20}}, I think, shouldn't be too much of a problem, all edits since 17 May surely belong to the sock. But a few of the football editors on Misplaced Pages know about persistent IP hopping every 24 hours or less. ] (]) (]) 15:18, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: |
:::::::::::Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. ]] 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| :::::: |
::::::I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.] (]) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP ] - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. ] (]) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Two IPs yesterday that I am aware of, the latter one being {{IP|154.180.13.189}}. ]] 16:29, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. ] (]) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ec}} NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of ], and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -] (]) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN. | |||
| :::sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. ] (]) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. ] (]) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour ''there would be no mention of WP:NPA''. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture ''continues'' to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. ] (]) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' as unnecessary given the commitments already given. ]] 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{hat|1=Let's not. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). <small>Edited to include edit conflict comment. ] (]) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC)</small>}} | |||
| ::::I am assuming you haven't spent much time in places ] where religious belief and persons of faith are not infrequently and quite openly subject to ridicule. Racism is a subject upon which society has happily come to more or less full agreement. Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other. I shall refrain from further comment out of deference to WP:FORUM. -] (]) 21:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Fringe ideas get ridiculed at FTN regardless of whether or not they are religious... That so many fringe views are also religious is more a result of the supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual being inherently fringe than any problem with FTN. Religion which is rational and explainable isn't religion any more after all. ] (]) 21:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Thank you for affirming my point. -] (]) 21:59, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Your point was that "Gender remains an extremely controversial subject with one side regularly resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other." Right? Like for example the ] or is that not the side you were thinking of? ] (]) 22:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::No. I was thinking of people who regularly insult and ridicule religious belief and those who hold to it. Something which based on your comment, does not seem to be a source of concern to you. That said, this discussion is veering deep into WP:FORUM territory and I am going to move on. Have a good day. -] (]) 22:16, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I don't think I've ever seen any of those people suggest that trans people are demons, or did you mean demonize in a way other than literally saying that the other side is demonic/satan's minions? Becuase that would be highly ironic... ] (]) 22:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I am reaching the uncomfortable conclusion that you are attempting to be deliberately offensive. And for the record, you are succeeding. Good day. -] (]) 22:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::You weren't aware that a cornerstone of the gender controversy was religious conservatives resorting to argumentum ad hominem in efforts to demonize and de-legitimize the views of the other? Because that is well documented in reliable sources. I don't think you're the one who is supposed to be offended here, you're the one saying what appear to be extremely offensive things and are being asked to clarify what you meant. ] (]) 22:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::{{ec}} I think a significant point here is that while we may tolerate some degree of forumish and offensive comment about gender or race or religions from editors when they are restricted to largely abstract comment or even when they reference other editors, it's far more of a problem when the editors make offensive accusations about living persons especially when these are completely unrelated to any discussion about how to cover something (noting that the editor continued to make the comment even after they had noted how the English wikipedia treats issues). So for example, if someone says a specific religious figure is delusion or lying in relation to how we treat their testimony that might barely be acceptable. When someone just comes out and says it repeatedly for no reason, that's far more of a problem. Especially if the figure is someone barely notable and not notable (as was the case here for one of the individuals each). ] (]) 22:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| {{hat|1=This ''is'' affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}} | |||
| *'''Comment''' This is definitely not the ideal place to discuss the subject since the whole problem originated with pt.wiki, but since the editor came here asking for help (for the right reasons or not), I will draw attention to the case of the admin accused of transphobia. This is not the first time that DarwIn has been singled out due to his comments on the subject (he has already given several examples of this here), but there is an where the editor has already been criticized for making such comments. There, they were also celebrating Skyshifter's ban (DarwIn commented something like "as a man he was 100%, after transitioning he became unbearable" to refer to her). As much as they try not to link the group to the project, to use this chat you need to associate your Misplaced Pages credentials, so I am concerned that pt.wiki admins could be seen spreading speeches against minorities in an official space of the project, since Misplaced Pages is the target of attacks for investing in equity and diversity. In addition to this comment, the admin was also extremely rude and crude towards a ]. | |||
| :Again, this is not the ideal place to comment on these issues, but I suggest that the case be submitted to Wikimedia if any intervention or something more incisive is necessary. The local community can accuse me of anything for writing these words, but I am concerned about the escalation of editorial harassment within that space. | |||
| == External links: concerns over copyrights and genocide denial == | |||
| {{archive top|result={{u|Sabuhi from Baku}} subject to a community imposed topic-ban from Armenia and Azerbaijan, broadly construed, and is strongly admonished against further copyright violations. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 04:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{userlinks|Sabuhi from Baku}} | |||
| :PS: The editor was mocking this discussion in the Telegram group while I was writing this. ] (]) 01:57, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I'm concerned that the many external links recently added by Sabuhi from Baku to books available for download on https://www.avetruthbooks.com (e.g., ) may be in violation of ]. I them to self-revert but they seem to . | |||
| ::Came back after a month with no edits for this? It's quite clear Jardel is taking something personal with DarwIn here. Or he doesn't have anything to do at the moment. And he didn't have such great writing and narrative in his mother tongue, now is writing perfect, well written English. That gets stranger considering he's partially blocked in ptwiki for some beefing with other editors (] in portuguese)... Quite strange, to say the least. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::And yes, by "quite strange" I am talking about maybe ]. Nobody comes after a month without edits (that was preeceded by some other months before some 5-ish edits), to make an "accusation" based on unfounded arguments, especially after being blocked precisely for beefing and attacking other members of the community in his homewiki. Such a hypocrisy, a user banned for beefing accusating another user of attacks and using the word "transphobia" so vaguely. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I expected, the group participants started making accusations against me (that's why Eduardo G. appeared in this discussion) and wanted to insinuate that Skyshifter is writing this text, perhaps wanting to provoke some kind of retaliation later. First, I appreciate the compliments on my writing, which was 100% done by Google Translate; I think Google's engineering is to be congratulated. Second, I'm only here on this page because I noticed the links to this discussion in the Telegram group itself and decided to contribute with what I've been reading for a long time with great disgust. I didn't need to bring much, Darwin himself made a point of making abject comments in this discussion, but if you want, I can bring some screenshots of what they were talking about in the group. Third, I did go 1 month without editing here because my focus is not on en.wiki but on pt.wiki, where I make regular edits. I find it strange that you entered this discussion without refuting any of the arguments above, thinking that bringing up my tarnished "reputation" changes everything that was written by me or in the group. I believe it must be embarrassing to participate in a group where they are celebrating the sanctions that Skyshifter will suffer (thinking that place is a "private club") while at the same time you from the "public side" to the same editor, simulating virtue. In any case, my goal here is only to reinforce that there is indeed materiality in what Skyshifter said with more evidence and once again I recommend that the discussion be evaluated by the Wikimedia team knowing that attitudes that demonstrate prejudice against minorities go against the project's investments in equity, diversity and equality. ] (]) 03:52, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I will not pursue any retaliation. I'm just stating what I know of this case, and I even supported Sky when the edits were being made. People are celebrating because all of this discussion was brought to even another wiki by her. But I understand you might've written this text, and will not take the subject further. If anybody needs anything, please read the message below. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::So, I don't disagree with your argument about the sanctions she's passing on the other project, unfortunately. As for "not pursue any retaliation", I don't think that's what you mean by the phrase "4 successful DBs in a row is not for everyone." directed at me. ] (]) 04:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] You're wrong, twice. First, it wasn't me saying that. It was NCC-1701, and my user in TG is Edu. And at no point did I agree with NCC's messages. And secondly, the "four DBs in a row" wasn't in anyway directed at you. It was directed to Bageense, who opened 4 block discussions in the last 2 or 3 days and all of them were successfull. You are distorting the messages to condone your erroneous narrative. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Well, if I am "distorting messages" to "tolerate" my narrative, anyone who wants to evaluate can join the group and read the messages posted there or see the pt.wiki discussion against the Projeto Mais Teoria da História na Wiki and talk to its ] to see what their opinion is on the matter. I may not be a perfect person, but what I see with great displeasure (coming from those who are "in charge of the gears") is not positive for the project. ] (]) 04:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Joining the group the community would then have no doubts about your intents and distortion of facts. You didn't deny the two things I said above — you know I'm right, you can't bend the facts this much. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| '''As a ptwiki user''' that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage ()/], thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the ] <small>(in portuguese)</small>. The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it. | |||
| I'm not really sure whether adding links to sites of this type are in violation of policy or not (Avetruthbooks.com seems to be similar to ], ] et al.; if these ''are'' a problem they should perhaps be added to the policy section), so I would like to ask other editors to weigh in and to revert if appropriate. | |||
| This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone. | |||
| There's also a separate concern voiced by {{u|HistoryofIran}} that the owners of Avetruthbooks.com are Armenian genocide deniers , which was not well received . It may be that Sabuhi from Baku only wants to provide links to full-text downloads (e.g. ), which would perhaps render this a secondary issue, though edits like would tend to contradict that. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 14:28, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Site administrators add tags that show what the post is about. The site itself does not impose its opinion in contrast to the user Historiofİran. Speaking about copyrights, you need to keep in mind tens of thousands of domains of similar placement, including archive.org, academy.edu and others. Why they can and this site can not. The owners of the site do not deny or promote anything. They host academic research (which is written in different languages and printed in different countries) in an electronic format. ] (]) 14:38, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Looks like Apaugasma beat me to it. I have great concerns about Sabuhi, who uses the cheap and classical “you must hate our people” card (]/]) because I’m against his addition of a genocide denying, pseudo-history loving, website. Not to mention his insistence/persistence on using this questionable website, going as far as adding it to countless websites and even edit warring. I’ll go into more details when I’m home. ] (]) 14:48, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::I did not add anything pseudo-scientific: and added a link from where you can download or read the book that was listed here as a source. avetruthbooks - it's just a site that provides access to scientific literature, maps, old (printed) books and manuscripts. . You simply can't provide normal arguments and decided to go through a play on words about the topic of the Armenian genocide. ] (]) 15:01, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::'''Sabuhi should be indeffedfor this comment alone.''' ] (]) 18:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Putting other issue aside it certainly looks like Avetruthbooks is similar to Z-Library and shouldn't be linked to as it's a copyright issue. -- LCU ''']''' <small>''∆]∆'' °]°</small> 16:34, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::The other problem simply does not exist (intentionally invented to remove the link). I agree about copyright. But what about equality before the rules? ] (]) 17:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I explained the difference of archive.org and academia.edu on your talk page. Your answer there makes me wonder if you have the English skills necessary for editing enwiki. -- LCU ''']''' <small>''∆]∆'' °]°</small> 18:00, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I can edit wikis in any language, I'm technically familiar with wikis. Registered here since 2009. I have been using archive.org and academia.edu for a very long time, I don’t need to explain what I know quite well. Is there a rule forbidding links to books or articles that have copyright, then they should be distributed to all sites. ] (]) 18:49, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::As you can see, I haven't tried to edit the Enwiki before (just didn't want to). And now I did not touch the text, I only added a link to the source that is indicated in the articles. ] (]) 18:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I don't doubt you ability to edit a wiki, but that {{tq|"English is not my native language"}} is very evident. I explained the difference on your talk page, your answer there is very confused and doesn't address what I said. -- LCU ''']''' <small>''∆]∆'' °]°</small> 19:10, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Here are the books to which temporary access is provided: 1,242,425 results, and everything else is in full access, . At the academia.edu, there is a huge number of users (whether they are authors or not) who have uploaded thousands of works to which they are not related. And this is what I'm talking about. I understand what you wrote to me.] (]) 19:44, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Are you using Google translate to communicate? -- LCU ''']''' <small>''∆]∆'' °]°</small> 20:06, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I ask because the sentence {{tq|Here are the books to which temporary access is provided: 1,242,425 results, and everything else is in full access, a huge part of these books have copyrights (which this site /archive.org/ does not have)}} doesn't actually make any sense. -- LCU ''']''' <small>''∆]∆'' °]°</small> 20:08, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I think you trying to say that archive.org and academia.edu have issues with copyright, but that isn't their intended aim. Misplaced Pages has issue with copyrighted material, but unlike avutruthbooks it isn't it's basic function. -- LCU ''']''' <small>''∆]∆'' °]°</small> 20:11, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::The number of posts (printed books, articles, maps, manuscripts, and so on) on the avetruthbooks.com website is more than 5 million; Absolutely majority (more than 95 percent) of the total e-books are not physically located on avetruthbooks.com but on archive.org + loc.gov + gallica.bnf.fr + davidrumsey.com, and so on. Not all material on the site is subject to copyright. The problem is that several users have become obsessed with precisely those materials (academic studies) that relate to the history / one way or another related to / Azerbaijan. In this sense, I am against his association with libgen, zlib (and similar sites).] (]) 08:51, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::If the works are actually hosted on another site, then that site should be linked to. If avetruthbooks is just a pass-through it doesn't need to be linked to at all, to do so does give the impression of trying to spam links to the site. However several of the works I checked are actually hosted on mega.nz a much less reputable site. Finally the fact that you against the association with libgen and zlib is of no importance, the site is obviously hosting or linking to copyrighted work and where it isn't the actual host should be linked. Either way links to avetruthbooks should be avoided. -- LCU ''']''' <small>''∆]∆'' °]°</small> 12:00, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::I am naive. I thought the rules were the same for everyone. I have nothing to do with the site. You can remove the links, I'm not going to wage an edit war (I don't have time for empty things). ] (]) 15:53, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::I have now removed the external links to avetruthbooks you added, per your comment and per a broad consensus here and elsewhere. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 17:23, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :: Norton also flagged up multiple intrusion attempts when I tried to access the site - so it looks like the site isn't safe.] (]) 16:45, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::This is a pop ad. No viruses. Antiviruses block this type of ad: . I don't use links without validation. ] (]) 17:31, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my ] (). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{tq|The site itself does not impose its opinion in contrast to the user Historiofİran}}. As ever: | |||
| JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community . And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. ] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| 📎 ''”Clippy” appears.'' ‘It looks like you’re a new user trying to report HistoryofIran. Would you like me to help by closing your browser?’ — <span style="letter-spacing:-1pt;font-family:'Rockwell', serif;">''']™'''</span> 17:42, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :It is pretty clear thay the intents of Jardel here are disruptive. Your comment hopefully leaves no doubt to the community. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 04:53, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Did you write this to me? I have been a registered wiki user since 2009. I didn't understand what you mean (English is not my native language). ] (]) 18:40, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :As I said above, I am not a perfect person. I may have used foul language to address some editors in a moment of anger, but I felt vulnerable and hurt by editors I held in high regard, and I apologize for what I wrote in the past. Likewise, I do not think it is right that a social channel that is reported as "linked to Misplaced Pages" is being used as a bar where people can say whatever they want, especially when it comes to prejudiced comments against minorities. At no time did I label all of them, only one of them demonstrated that she was doing so. If I happen to receive any sanction for this discussion, and knowing that bringing issues from pt.wiki here is not ideal, I will receive it for doing the right thing, because I want something to change for the better in a project that I have dedicated so much time to contributing to. I may be prevented from editing on Misplaced Pages, but if what I bring here helps to change something, I will be happy. ] (]) 05:01, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, I did. No good will come of your personal attack on HistoryofIran and you should <s>strike</s> it. Your reply to their message on your talk page – which stopped -> . <- this short of outright genocide denial, will not do. — <span style="letter-spacing:-1pt;font-family:'Rockwell', serif;">''']™'''</span> 18:46, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| :::It is he who makes an attack on me, , whose personal opinion I have not demonstrated anywhere. Implants his opinion on another user (that is, on me). I do not care about him: he is not a problem for me, unless of course he himself stops. I don't know if it's correct to translate the translator: Это он делает нападение на меня, на этнос которому я принадлежу, моё личное мнение которого я нигде не демострировал. Насаждает свое мнение на другого пользователя (то есть на меня). Мне нету дела до него: он не проблема для меня, если конечно он сам перестанет. ] (]) 19:09, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :] - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? ] ] 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I don't see an attack from HistoryOfIran there. You've suggested at least twice in this thread that he's attacking Azerbaijanis. There are a whole host of policy reasons why you shouldn't do that. Suggesting that a source, that is also Azerbaijani, denies the Armenian Genocide, does not amount to an attack on you, or the Azerbaijani people as a whole. Please either explain where the attack was, or strike your comments. I don't think you'll be asked again to do so. ] ] 19:54, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. ] (]) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'm tired of long correspondence. I posted a link, but you did not check it. He wrote the following: and this is my answer: The term Azeri was coined by the French scientist Charles Barbier de Meynard in 1885, and the term Azerbaijanis was forcibly introduced by Stalin in 1936. Both terms are exonym for us. No one has the right to deny our existence before 1936. + In addition, look at the correspondence on my personal page, despite the fact that I explained why admins use such tags, he thinks that he is a judge or prosecutor who can accuse others or judge, forgetting that this is a wiki, not a court or police. ] (]) 09:09, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, . Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. ] (]) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::So where's the attack from me? Seeing how this discussion has turned out, and Sabuhi making even more personal attacks towards me, it seems it's not necessary for me to go into details. I think Sabuhi should be topic-banned from Azerbaijan-related topics at minimum due to their egregious attacks and lack of ]. Also, their random comment about the Azerbaijani identity is pure ] (). --] (]) 10:53, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. ] (]) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::The only way you could have made a personal attack in that comment is either Sabuhi from Baku owns/works for avetruthbooks, is the one making the genocide denial tweets, or both. Given their edits I believe they likely have COI with avetruthbooks. -- LCU ''']''' <small>''∆]∆'' °]°</small> 12:04, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Supporting both IBAN and TBAN'''. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--] ] 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::So let me get this straight: because HistoryofIran ''agrees with you'' that the term "Azerbaijanis" is relatively recent, and because he believes the owners of a website to be genocide deniers, he must "fiercely hate" the Azerbaijani people? You have two choices here: to apologize for your personal attack and withdraw it, or to give plenty of ammunition to HistoryofIran's assertion that you ] to edit Misplaced Pages constructively and collectively. Neither this website nor you are synonymous with Azerbaijan or its people. ] 12:14, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. ] (]) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.] (]) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::You are right, this is Misplaced Pages, and not a court. More specifically, it is a Misplaced Pages noticeboard where contributor's behaviour is discussed (in this case, yours), and if necessary sanctions may be applied. It is clear that you have not been subject to any personal attack. Nobody has humiliated you. Nobody has humiliated 'your people'. If that is all you have to say then it seems entirely reasonable to ask whether you should be permitted to continue to edit here. ] (]) 16:15, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. ] (]) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::(shrugs) No one here can force you to comply with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines governing acceptable and civil conduct, if doing so offends your pride. The remedies available to us -- as you are on track to finding out -- are limited to restricting your ability to use Misplaced Pages until such time as you ''do'' endeavor to follow those policies. ] 07:07, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.] (]) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I just racked up 142 edits in removing the links to avetruthbooks added by Sabuhi from Baku. Given the fact that these were all of Sabuhi's 2023 mainspace edits (their last edit before that goes back to 2017), and given their sheer number, I understand that this must have been a little painful. This should probably be taken into account when evaluating Sabuhi's reluctance to comply with my request to self-revert and their generally defensive attitude. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 17:23, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain. | |||
| *:I have nominated avetruthbooks.com for blacklisting at ]. –] (]]) 02:56, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.] (]) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.] (]) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. ] (]) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Children cannot consent, their parents can. ] ]<sup>]</sup> 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--] (]) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? ] (]) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--] (]) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. ] (]) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support TBAN''', no comment on IBAN. . ] ]<sup>]</sup> 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- ] - <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose any sanctions''' I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate ] on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. ] (]) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support TBAN''', indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this ] type editing, whether it is attempting to ] or simply ] discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. ] (]) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. ] (]) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' ''Skyshifter'', if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to descelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. ''']]''' 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite () to boot. ] (]) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :'''I support''' the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :'''I oppose''' with the IP-ban because if anything this '''SHOULD’VE''' ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing. | |||
| :<br> ] (]) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. ] (]) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents. | |||
| :::NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent. | |||
| :::Cheers, <br> ] (]) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This reply reminded me of the essay ]. ] (]) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. ] (]) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. ] (]) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at ] accusing me of coming to their talk page to "{{tq|further troll me with this nonsense warning}}". '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --] (]) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' both. To make sure I haven't lost my goddamn mind, I read this discussion '''''twice'''''. I personally believe Darwin is in the wrong here. His behavior on enwiki violates both GENSEX and BLP sanctions (), and he doubled down when he had the chance to defend himself (] and comments above). Even if we play devil's advocate and assume Darwin's claims about Sky being a troll/vandal and sockmaster (which is a heavy accusation to make) on ptwiki are true, her work on enwiki has shown that she's changed for the better. This is coming from a person who has interacted with Sky a couple of times (], ], ]); she is an amazing editor on here. For the sake of everyone involved and to avoid another mess like this, the sanctions above should be enforced. 💽 ] 💽 🌹 ⚧ <sup>(''']''')</sup> 08:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === ] taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge. === | |||
| ===Proposal to tban Sabuhi from Baku=== | |||
| {{hat|1=100% affairs of other wikis. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Due to there obvious ] and ] issues I propose that Sabuhi from Baku be topic banned from Azerbaijan and Armenian topics broadly construed, and from adding links to avetruthbooks (This seems a minimum if they are not blocked for their persistent personal attacks against HOI). -- LCU ''']''' <small>''∆]∆'' °]°</small> 16:05, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|result=This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this ]s on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)}} | |||
| *'''Support''' – I'm a little disappointed that Sabuhi from Baku still does not appear to understand the problems that adding links to copyrights-violating websites can cause to Misplaced Pages, though perhaps they would have understood by now if their addition of such links had happened in a less sensitive subject area. Obviously, editing Azerbaijan and Armenian-related topics causes them a great deal of stress, and the way they immediately and repeatedly personalized a dispute with HistoryofIran about the subject ("{{gray|You personally have a very strong intolerance towards Azerbaijanis}}" ; "{{gray|Misplaced Pages is not the place to express your hatred towards other people or nations}}" ; "{{gray|You can not express personal grievances and hatred on Misplaced Pages}}" ; "{{gray|You fiercely hate Azerbaijanis}}" ) strongly suggests that a topic ban is in order.{{pb}}I don't think that any kind of block should be in the cards, because there is no evidence of misconduct in other topic areas, and because some aspects in their handling of this stressful situation (e.g., their willingness to stop and discuss) suggest to me that they may very well be a constructive and collaborative editor in other topic areas. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 17:31, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| On the 29th of December, ] started an AN/I based on a claim that ], a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination . AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate. | |||
| *'''Support''' - After reading through this discussion, I would have to agree with ActivelyDisinterested and Apaugasma. --] (]) 19:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per Apaugasma. Sabuhi from Baku has shown that they either don't understand or don't care about copyvio policy. ''']''' (] | ]) 02:58, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Comment''' So far, the content problems relate to an odd promotion of the avetruthbooks website. While I can see the plain AA2 vibes here, I question whether a topic ban should be imposed given they haven't really edited in the area. ] (]) 03:12, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I was thinking exactly this after I wrote my !vote above. But the thing is that almost every time I've followed that rationale (this editor's conduct really ''looks'' problematic, but they haven't ''edited'' problematically so let's just wait and see) I have come to regret it later. Especially in ] areas early topic bans probably do more good than harm. In any case, I'm mainly writing this reply to ask the closer to leave a ] alert if the tban is not enacted. That too would be a sensible outcome. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 15:23, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support:''' per Apaugasma. If Sabuhi from Baku not only feels, as they indicated above, that the provisions of ] do not apply to them, but that no judgment of their conduct can be tolerated, then it's plain that we should relieve them from the burden of editing in such a fraught topic area. ] 06:58, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Well, it goes without saying for me. --] (]) 11:47, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Three times Sabuhi has been asked in this thread to step back from accusations and unhelpful editing, and three times they have doubled down. A t-ban might get them back on track. — <span style="letter-spacing:-1pt;font-family:'Rockwell', serif;">''']™'''</span> 12:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' more than merited based on the evidence provided. (] · ]) ''']''' 04:17, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' - The above comments by this user show they are spoiling for a fight and not going to take advice on board. This topic ban seems to be the best way to encourage them to move on to other topics & hopefully learn to collaborate better. Once the website in question is blacklisted, that should ''hopefully'' deal with the copyvio issue, but any further violations should be strictly dealt with, should they occur. | |||
| :— <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:11, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{archive bottom}} | |||
| She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. | |||
| == Randy Kryn - ] on edit warring and fringe topics == | |||
| But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log. | |||
| Randy Kryn has been insisting at ] that a topic in '']'' and ] is not a fringe theory at ] even after being told so by multiple editors, , accuses others of edit warring while continuing to revert after multiple editors have reverted their edits , (apparently they I wasn't the only one who reverted their changes...) | |||
| This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage ( and in ]), ] over other users and using ] and ] to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it ], with all the proofs). The ] taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever. | |||
| I'm taking this to ] because quite frankly if one of the top 200 most prolific editors truly what ] is by now, this is far more serious issue of ]. | |||
| Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was '''personal''' and for '''revenge'''. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under ], here called ] I think, and ]/], and in the AN/I above she's commiting ], repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment. | |||
| They've previously been , and for edit warring before. | |||
| <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <s>My previous interaction with this editor was them '''re-opening''' a closed merge proposal (or perhaps their own personal standards), then claiming they never so this seems like a pattern of invention of non-existent rules or policies that fit their own personal standards while disregarding community concerns about their edits.</s> ] (]) 04:25, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * I thought this might happen, because I had left a message at the fringe wikiproject notice board that I was signing off for the evening. So what occurs a few minutes later? This nonsense. The edit war being referred is entirely the editors, as I reverted and asked for a talk page discussion and then....whoo, right into an edit war. And the discussion being referred to is just beginning and has had few comments from other editors. There is ''way too much'' wrong in the above (i.e. just to start, my ANI excursion was closed quickly because...the person bringing it was mistaken, and my blocks with {{u|Dicklyon}} occurred in 2015 - maybe eight years of good behavior counts for something) but I don't have time for much more now. Please read the links provided above to see how they have been spun and misdefined. And if I keep typing I'd have less than good-faith things to say about this editor, so will now sign off for real for tonight. ] (]) 04:42, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::@]: I don't know about the rest of your report, but your extrapolation that Randy Kryn has said {{gender:Randy Kryn|he|she|they}} {{tq|never read policies}} based off is wildly off-the-mark. You that Randy Kryn cited a guideline (or at least pretended to) in <small>(or maybe in ?)</small>, but it's abundantly clear Kryn did no such thing.<br />Likewise, was not a denial of the concept of fringe.<br />I try to be charitable in my responses to AN/I reports, but really I have no clue how you can so poorly misinterpret things this way without intentionally doing so. I recommend withdrawing this report as the most sensible action (lest you attract further scrutiny for yourself). <small>Though, you should probably apologize to Randy Kryn as well, but I do not find that a likely occurrence, sadly.</small> –<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">] ]<sup>]</sup></span> 05:12, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Ah, you must have missed the part in the previous edit where the first sentence of ], which was directly what they were responding to. Anyone who would like to do so is welcome to read the entire context at ] if they would like. Or perhaps you'd like to pop over to and look at it yourself? At any rate, as far as I can tell, I've done nothing wrong here, and so I have no concern about attracting further scrutiny. ] (]) 05:22, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@{{u|Carchasm|car chasm}}: I did see your comment Randy Kryn was responding to, but to me it just seemed like {{gender:Randy Kryn|he was|she was|they were}} just disagreeing with you that fringe theory applies to this case and not whether fringe theories exist conceptually.<br />The logic may or may not be flawed, but that isn't really a conduct problem for a one-off comment. The FT/N thread hasn't finished playing out, so it's yet to be seen whether Kryn can provide actually sufficient evidence that this model is ] or not. –<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">] ]<sup>]</sup></span> 16:58, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Additionally, if it wasn't clear the issue I took with that previous edit was that they '''''re-opened a closed discussion ''''' with the justification "" which certainly seems like something you'd only do if there was an issue with policy. This is a pattern of tendentious and disruptive editing. ] (]) 05:31, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::But, it is also less relevant, so I've struck it out from my report. ] (]) 06:10, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I appreciate you striking that part at least. When it comes to ], there really isn't any guideline or policy that controls it. The process is rather informal when attendance is low even if the ] makes it seem otherwise. –<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">] ]<sup>]</sup></span> 16:58, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Pinging {{ping|ජපස}} and {{ping|Ad Orientem}} as involved editors. ] (]) 05:28, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :{{replyto|Eduardo_Gottert}} You need to provide evidence when opening an ANI thread, not on request. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| There is definitely something strange going on here. I am not sure it rises to a need for admin intervention quite yet, but ] is somewhat uncharacteristically engaging in ] argumentation over at ] in rather surprising ways. He seems to be arguing that ] is considered unimpeachably ] within the context of ]. That does not seem to be the case at all according to reliable sources that we have. However, I'm not sure there is much admins can do excepting that it is weird to have such an established editor making such a misinformed argument. ] (]) 07:33, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::'@] The evidences are above. I said if you need any '''further''' evidence, you may ask. All of the necessary evidence are on the request. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *Quite concerning that this has been brought to ANI. The edit war finished at the 3rd revert, and this wouldn't generally be the venue for that anyway. The rest of the complaint seems to consist of "user disagrees with me and I'm right". Well, I don't really care who is right here, but taking somebody to ANI for being politely wrong is a massive misuse of time, energy and policy. ] (]) 07:46, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Where's the evidence? What we know is that DarwIn came here despite little involvement and made a highly offensive statement that can reasonably be characterised as transphobic. While I don't feel Sky Shifter should have described it so, better to let others decide, it was entirely reasonable for Sky Shifter to call for action against DarwIn for it. What is your evidence that they did it for revenge instead of for the fact that after a disagreement with DarwIn in a different wiki, DarwIn suddenly appeared in this wiki, one they themselves agree they barely edit, to make a highly offensive statement that Sky Shifter reasonably felt was transphobic. After doing so, they then appeared on ANI to make similar highly offensive statements were they made offensive accusations against living based on their own opinion. ] (]) 06:13, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Randy isn't really being "polite" here, but even so I think that ''if'' this ANI report is premature, it is perfectly fine to close this report. However, given that Randy is such a ''fixture'' at this place, it is somewhat understandable for a user to think that there is something off here when the rhetoric in the edit summaries and at the noticeboard is so absolutist. ] (]) 07:50, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Honestly, the argument is pretty clear above. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::To explain further, the edit war in question (apparently ] is a thing of the past) concerns the removal of ] (as well as ] - Dass used both the names Dass and Richard Alpert) from ]. They were both definitely American consciousness researchers and theorists, and have been in the category for a long time (as have other individuals who were removed quickly in a category-disrupting edit run). As either a "fixture" here (call a plumber) or if I were a one-edit newbie, many who know the work of Leary and Alpert would call much of their professional work at Harvard, and their work and writings afterwards, as being that of consciousness researchers and theorists. Mainstream or not has nothing to do with this. In his time at Harvard Leary seems to easily qualify for the category, so I reverted and asked to discuss this on the talk page. And then all hell broke loose and wham, bam, here I am asking to be put into stocks for thinking that a long-term category might just fit enough to hold off on its removal in order to discuss it (We hardly knew ye, ]). As for bringing me to ANI over this, where are the coffee and donuts? ] (]) 12:07, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If you agree you're wrong then please withdraw this ANI. ] (]) 06:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Yeah, I agree, "weird to have such an established editor making such a misinformed argument" is a good summary of why I brought this here. It's less over whether or not the topics are fringe (that's what FTN is for) and more about them engaging with the process in a way that's so ]. I mean, arguing on this very board that whether or not something is mainstream has nothing to with whether or not it's fringe? What's to be done about that? ] (]) 18:25, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I did not agree in any place that I am wrong. I just stated that the evidence is pretty clear above, with all the block discussions and diffs needed for understanding the problem. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:23, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::The spin continues. If I was one of those editors who asks for a boomerang then I'd go full kangaroo on this fellow. But I'm not. They quote me above as "arguing on this very board that whether or not something is mainstream has nothing to with whether or not it's fringe?". Where did I say that? What I said is that Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert fit the description and wording: ]. Twisting that around to mean something else seems political in nature. By the way, I've heard a rumor that this entire thing is being discussed off-site somewhere by at least one of the participants - but nobody involved has notified me. Not cool, and doesn't seem like Wikipedian fairness. ] (]) 23:34, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Your statement was very unclear. You said "the argument" which I interpreted to mean my argument. If you're still claiming your argument is clear, then please explain how it can be when part of your argument is it was unfair for Sky Shifter to go around saying "transphobia" when many of us agree that even if it was unnecessary, it was not unsupported given the comments DarwIn was making do seem to be transphobic. ] (]) 06:29, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::"Mainstream or not has nothing to do with this." - this is a sentence from one of your posts above. And you appear to be casting ] now as well about some hypothetical off-site discussion? Either make a definitive accusation or don't. ] (]) 00:44, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::As we were talking about my evidence, I think saying "the argument" clearly refer to me. And as to the reason for the opening of this ANI, it's because the revenge seeking of Skyshifter. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::A sentence taken totally out of context. Again. Making me almost regret I'm not the kind of editor who asks for a boomarang (and if someone else does, I'll defend you against it, but you're stretching the limit of Wikipedian courtesy). I've heard rumors about the off-site discussion but haven't read it (seems you have to be logged-in as a member). ] (]) 00:58, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I wouldn't say it doesn't considering as I said, one of the reasons your argument was flawed, but you didn't address that in any way. Nothing you've said above or since has explained why you're claiming Sky Shifter using the word "transphobic" is evidence for "revenge" when it's a reasonable characterisation of what DarwIn said. ] (]) 06:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Leary spread the concept of the important role of "set and setting", and that is still current, e.g.: | |||
| ::::::::{{ec}} I would add it's very unclear what you thinking you're adding that wasn't already considered above. In the above thread a 1 way iban on DarwIn seems to be getting serious consideration. A two way iban seems to have been rejected based on the assessment that whatever the wrongs with Sky Shifter's approach, it wasn't serious enough to warrant an iban. The fact that Sky Shifter was in a dispute with DarwIn on other wikis, and DarwIn was involved in their blocked is likewise not a secret, part of it was stated by Sky Shifter when opening the thread and the rest was stated by DarwIn. The sock allegation likewise. So what do you think you're adding to the discussion that wasn't already considered and seemingly rejected by the community above? ] (]) 06:40, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::* | |||
| :It is time for a ]. You already said all of that above. You seem to have been canvassed here from a discussion outside of this wiki. Go back there and let them know cross wiki harassment will get you blocked here. ] (]) 05:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::* | |||
| ::I added more evidence and context. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::* (at NIH.gov!) | |||
| :::You simply cast aspersions as part of a cross wiki harassment campaign against someone over transgender related issues. You are not here to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 06:25, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::* | |||
| ::::Your statement doesn't even make sense. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::... etc. – ] <sup>]</sup> 22:02, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::We can add ] to the reasons you are blocked then. ] (]) 06:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :And please have a look at the tags fringe project editors have added to the page about one of Timothy Leary's main works ] since yesterday (notice that the title includes 'model', not theory - it is an encyclopedic article summarized a model about which several books have been written). The fringe wikiproject page is all aglow about how this article should be gone, and about the deletions they have done in categories since yesterday. One of them asked their members to watch for many AfD's. I hope administrators pay attention to the actions of those editors about these subjects. ] (]) 23:57, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Am I? And where am I in violation of ]? <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:30, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::This, and related issues are currently being addressed at the ], which is the proper venue for handling these questions. Interested editors are invited to join the discussion there. -] (]) 01:16, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I used plain English and you said you couldn't comprehend it. ] (]) 06:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yeah, so let's move it "in house" so the discussion is tucked away in the place which includes the home turf of the editors who brought this to ANI in the first place. Make accusations about what questions in particular, I really don't know what is being discussed or asked for here, and then only discuss things with the project where accusations are coming from. Sounds like a plan. ] (]) 02:53, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, the idea that FTN could be a neutral venue for discussing this kind of topic is itself a bit of a Fringe Theory to my mind. ] (]) 07:15, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If you're asserting FTN is not neutral in this area, you've got an uphill climb to make. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:39, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::It's a clearly a sceptic magnet! ] (]) 21:37, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Yeah, there are quite a few users at FTN who seem to want to right the great wrong of people believing in woo. The practical effects of that are that posts there are the equivalent of a bat-sign. I was not the only user to point this out at the recent ]. --] (]) 07:08, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Misplaced Pages has a requirement to be provide verifiable facts, and not (intentionally or accidentally) push nonsense to our readers. Promoting woo is not factual, it's lying to people. So yes, FTN tends to be very critical when someone finds a thing saying "this woo is real." | |||
| ::::::::On the flip side, you can definitely find discussions where someone asked "is this woo?" and the consensus was "no, just a notable minority view." | |||
| ::::::::You act like people are on some grand crusade to eliminate wrongthink. That's not the case. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:55, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::My perception of this behaviour differs from yours. The Scooby gang all descended on the Alderney UFO article, which really did not say "the woo is real", and wanted it deleted, and this is happening again in this article. My impression is of users who want to restrict access to information as they fear it will lead the gullible astray. This often coincides quite well with ], but other times less so. Also, it would be good to know that the rumours of off-wiki organisation voiced in this thread are completely false. ] (]) 18:07, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Only fair to mention that there was actually a historical "grand crusade to eliminate wrongthink" waged by a paramilitary organization (Guerrilla Skepticism on Misplaced Pages) against Misplaced Pages and that it was shut down by the community. To the best of my knowledge however no such disruption is ongoing. ] (]) 20:06, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I think that Boynamedsue's ']' description of ] is spot on. However, it's very important to point out that none of the individual editors at FTN are responsible for this. Misplaced Pages is inherently vulnerable to promotion of fringe ideas, and it's only natural that those most interested to fight this should often share a similar POV (], which by the way is a very specific POV that in no way represents the general perspective of scientists and other scholars). Yes, this ''does'' put some pressure on NPOV, but 1) there is no easy solution to that problem, and 2) it pales in comparison to the problems that we would have without FTN and the editors who are active there. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 22:58, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * Randy is now at ], re-adding material that was challenged without adding a ], and insisting that primary sources are sufficient in violation of ]. No matter how prolific an editor he may be, he seems to be showing a complete lack of regard for any of our content policies whatsoever. ] (]) 00:41, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:@], a single revert is not edit warring. Randy also {{diff2|1157785988|immediately went to the talk page}} to discuss the revert, which Steve Quinn moved to its own section, which can be found ]. ] (]) 13:45, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Allow me to correct the perception by Hey man im josh. | |||
| ::*First I edited, then copy edited that edit, at the article Eight-circuit model of consciousness , . Notice in the edit history one of the things I wrote was "Please discuss on talk before reverting per WP:BRD." | |||
| ::*So rather than discuss the edit, Randy Kryn reverted my edit . Notice in the edit history they are saying "reverted, please respect BRD and discuss on the talk page" as if they are taking the initiative on BRD or something like that. At the least it confuses the situation or seems to muddy the waters. | |||
| ::*Then they come to the talk page . Here they make an assertion that "Have reverted your overall full-scale deletion." This is inaccurate, an exaggeration, and not collegial. | |||
| ::*Then I create a new section and reply . The reply is at the bottom of the diff where I say, please revert your edit and so on. | |||
| ::*Kyrn then replies, saying in part what I did "was an entire wholesale deletion which gutted the article." This is inaccurate and an exaggeration again. This is not conducive to collaboration. In the same response he seems to say that my article edit "...presents the entirety of the page." Again if he is referring to my edit in the article then this is inaccurate and exaggeration. | |||
| ::*My last response recounted the three inaccurate statements he just posted. And I referred to them as exaggerations. | |||
| ::*He replied to that and then I didn't see any point in continuing the conversation at that time. | |||
| :*Also, in a separate Deletion discussion they appear to be engaged in bludgeoning ''''''. They also seem to go off the rails regarding my ivote calling it ''wp:revenge'' and saying we had a "major disagreement" (at Eight-circuits). I didn't see it as a major disagreement nor do I see that discussion as productive. ---] (]) ] (]) 18:03, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's still not edit-warring though, is it? Just seems a pretty run of the mill content disagreement. ] (]) 17:53, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I never said it was edit warring. Please read what I said. And it is not a run of the mill content disagreement. They do not like to cooperate and seem unable to accept other's contributions as valid. ---] (]) 18:03, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I'm unclear what perception of mine you are trying to correct. I was pointing out that a single revert is not considered edit warring. Your edit summary, which essentially stated "do not revert without discussion", does not automatically protect your edit from being reverted. They reverted to the ] and began a discussion immediately after doing so. It's fine if you want to argue specific points about their editing, but that's not edit warring, that's what's supposed to be done based on ]. ] (]) 18:07, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I never said it was edit warring. Please read what I said. And you're overlooking how they were exaggerating during the discussion, making that discussion untenable - that's a behavioral problem. And also, bludgeoning in another discussion. A behavioral problem. ---] (]) 18:14, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I think Car Chasm did not adequately demonstrate part of the impetus for filing: | |||
| ::::::*Here CC removes a parent category from another category | |||
| ::::::*Here Kryn reverts | |||
| ::::::*Here CC removes the category again | |||
| ::::::*Kyrn reverts calling this edit warring. | |||
| ::::::*Here the category is removed again by another editor | |||
| ::::::*Kyrn reverts that edit . | |||
| ::::::*And the faldaral stops with the other editor . | |||
| ::::::*I'm not taking sides on this other than to show how persistent Kyrn can be. ---] (]) 18:37, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I thought it was pretty well determined in that prior ANI thread that DarwIn's edits and statements absolutely were transphobic and bigoted. ]]<sup>]</sup> 06:07, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Well I think this ANI isn't really going to go anywhere. I think it is probably premature and I '''support''' closing this thread. For my part, maybe I can think of ways I can communicate better. And my original edit at Eight-circuits may not have been the best decision and it caused upset. I take responsibility for that. I should have opened a dialogue first. ---] (]) 20:02, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::The reason for the AN/I opens is still the same, revenge. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 06:15, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *I've read many of the posts on the Portuguese wiki, and it is pretty clear that the Skyshifter's complaint above is a deliberate expansion of drama from there. The Portugese wiki is not Uganda, people do not get banned there for being Trans, and former admins don't get banned without causing a lot of disruption. It is clear these two users really strongly dislike each other and need to stop interacting in any way.--] (]) 06:59, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:People obviously doesn't get banned for being trans. She was sysop there, commited some errors, but stayed there even after 5 months of being on estrogen. And the community knew it. What caused her block there was calling the project a sewage and then outbreaking and attacking other users. I suggest they get a two-way IBAN, at least, not the one-way as proposed on the other AN/I. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I would add that unless I'm missing something, the block discussion on the Portugese Misplaced Pages seems to have been started about 30 minutes before the ANI thread . It has no contributions by DarwIn . It is theoretically possible I guess it somehow factored into the motivation of Skyshifter opening the ANI thread, but this seems extremely unlikely. There's a good chance Skyshifter wasn't even aware of it when opening the thread. In other words, there's no reason to think Skyshifter was even aware they were likely going to be permanently blocked from pt at the time of opening the thread although they did say they weren't going to return. ] (]) 07:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| '''Thoughts.''' So, I very nearly took a leap with a NAC a couple of hours ago, because I really think there is very little more to be accomplished here at the moment aside from maybe a few more reminders about process. But I decided I wanted to look into the interactions at the affected articles a little more closely (having already checked up on most the above diffs and the FTN discussion as this thread progressed over the last couple of days. And I think maybe just some comments will suffice, especially in light of Steve's comments immediately above. | |||
| ::She opened an NI, ptwiki equivalent of AN/I against DarwIn with crazy arguments. You can see it ]. It was prompty closed, and she was very well aware of the consequences she would face, and of the opening of the block discussion, and clearly opened the AN/I because of that reason. The block discussion started at 1130 UTC, and the AN/I was posted at 1300, at a time that Skyshifter had already taken notice of the discussion, as you can see . <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *This is ''very blatantly'' a tit-for-tat. As mentioned above there is the distinct smell of fishiness about it, and {{tqq|as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log}} - yes, the editor who has ''three FAs'' on en.wiki "came to this project" to do this. Suggest this be promptly closed as I hear a ] inbound. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I'll start by being honest that I think this filing was a bit premature, as others have pushed about above. Car chasm, I'm not saying I don't think your concerns are all invalid, but honestly, you didn't appropriately avail yourself of community processes for establishing a firm consensus in favour of your preferred outcome, nor did you wait for the FTN discussion to conclude before coming here. And I again agree with others above that many of your reasons presented for doing so are a little exaggerated or seem to not imply as much AGF as perhaps you could. You're only maybe sufficient reason for bringing this to ANX is the initial claim of edit warring, but it's an edge case at best, and ] is where such a report belongs anyway. I appreciate the extra context Steve has provided as to all that, which does bolster the case a little, but I still feel the proper course of action here was something like an RfC and then coming here if Randy did not accept consensus. And I say this as someone who shares some of your concerns about the content in dispute. With regard to at least Eight-circuits article, Randy is certainly the one who is better positioned to invoke BRD. Unless I am missing something obvious, Steve removed a pretty significant chunk of the article, consisting mostly or entirely of content which had been in it for years. That is almost always treated as the B in a BRD analysis, and Randy reverting that is hard to swallow as "edit warring". Steve, to esteemable credit, suggests himself that perhaps that could have been discussed first, and I agree with that assessment. That he didn't is also no biggie, but at this point, I think the ball is in the court of those who want to make these extensive changes. Of course, that said, the actual ]/burden of proof is also on Randy to justify retention. Again, simple way forward here: RfC. | |||
| *:I am not saying she isn't an avid used of English wiki. I just stated that she took ptwiki matters here for revenge and self-fullfillment. <span style="color:#4444F2;font-family:Palatino Linotype">]<sup><i><b>]-]</b></i></sup></span> 07:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::If you aren't asking for any sanctions against Skyshifter, then why did you open this sub-section, just to sling some mud at her? Give it a rest already, you're just creating more drama than is necessary.]] 08:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think that the background of this dispute is very relevant. Obviously, neither Skyshifter or Darwin should face any repercussions here for behaviour on pt.wiki, but it isn't possible to understand what is happening here without discussing what happened there. For me, having read what happened over there is the main reason I wouldn't yet TBAN Darwin, and would call for a two-way rather than one way interaction ban.--] (]) 08:50, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| Which actually gives me a segueway to what I wanted to say next. I have some direct experience of Randy myself, mainly as a random respondent to a couple of RfCs on content disputes he was party too. I know he can me a little fullsteam-ahead and hard to move off his positions at times: as I recall, I had to join with sentiments from other respondents on at least a couple of occasions to get him to slow his roll just a little. On the other hand, the other things I remember about him are that he is a very skilled editor, generally makes a solid effort to justify his position within policy constraints, and respects consensus if he exhausts his opportunities to change it. I agree there might be a patina of OWN here, but I do believe that not only will Randy drop the stick if you put together a strong enough consensus, but that actually there's almost certainly a wide area of middle ground here that is not being explored as yet, and that this got a little more antagonistic than it needed to be kind of fast. There's clearly discussion to be had here (and again, I think Steve is pointing the way on how to accomplish that). '']]'' 21:45, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| :Lastly, some observations about the finer details of the underlying disputes. I'm going to keep these comments short because they get into content rather than behavioural areas (not the purview of ANI), but they do intermingle with the nature of the dispute--and as someone who sits at the intersection of having some background in cognitive science and having a lot of experience editing scientific/MEDRS articles in general on en.wikipedia, I think I might have some brief input that could be of some small value. First, regarding the question of whether Leary constitutes a "consciousness researcher". That is a very nuanced question for our purposes here, coming down (as it must) to an analysis of WEIGHT. On the one hand, absolutely the man has been described as such in RS. But honestly, even going back in time to the heyday of his notable activities (and notoriety), probably this label was used more so in mainstream accounts than in serious academic works: he is not really a serious researcher in the areas of cognitive biopsychology that relate to the exploration of consciousness or subjects like the study of qualia, evolutionary psychology, or computational models of the mind, all of which are topics that the pseudoscience contained in these articles touches upon. Nor is he even a particularly influential name in the serious exercise of the philosophy adjacent to this science. | |||
| == ] reported by ] == | |||
| :Car chasm is certainly correct that there is a real concern here that association with terminology that today has a particular attachment to specific fields of inquiry in hard cognitive science runs a serious risk of bootstrapping this content to a status where it may be perceived by the semi-informed reader as something mainstream. When the reality is, most of it lands somewhere between "highly dubious" and "hallucinogen-inspired nonsense". On the other hand, the man is, in a sense, a major influence on the non-clinical discussion of these topics in the mainstream. How do we balance these factors? Well, again, pretty clearly and RfC issue. Or issues, rather, as I think this is, unfortunately, going to take a few sequential discussions to dial in all the language in dispute. Meanwhile, I personally think the content removed from/currently re-added to the Eight-circuit article actually serves to demonstrate how wacky these ideas are, and I think that probably comes across for a lot of readers who aren't already predisposed to psuedoscientific concepts of the mind. But I'm aware I'm not exactly a typical reader when it comes to these articles, and the influence this content could have on a subset of readers just barely into an exploration of neurophysiology and mainstream research models of perception might be greater than I appreciate. But again, consensus for those issues can be established in the relevant articles through normal process (and liberal notices at some relevant WikiProjects, if I may suggest). | |||
| {{atop|result=John40332 has been blocked sitewide. ] (]) 01:33, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :Well, just as well I didn't NAC this: not even a fourth of that would have fit into a reasonably-sized results box! But my perspective in a nutshell: it looks like the parties here all have fairly reasonable perspective and a generally productive editorial style. They just missed the first boat on hammering this out constructively. Luckily there's as many of those ferries in the day as one is willing to give themselves. RfC, peeps! Or did I mention that already? '']]'' 21:50, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Haven't looked at this discussion in a day, and it's like Jack and the Beanstalk, growing and growing. Thanks for the many comments. Now someone else has reverted my edit at the 8-circuit page and the article is back to being all but gutted of full-descriptor comment, so I've asked on the talk page for a fuller reason. The long-term language should be returned and then worked on from there, removing it to the extent its been removed is ] territory (we all own the page apparently). As for the fringe theory project (and please take note that Leary's model exists as a model, and not a theory - big difference, so I don't know why the fringe project is so involved and afluffle about this), there is no woo in Leary's work being discussed. In the 1950s he was acknowledged as a pioneer in standard personality testing, and then he further explore personality and consciousness in his 8-circuit model. And in reply to the concern that I've accused an editor of revenge voting, yes, I did, and no explanation has been given for the coinkidink of the vote. Anyway, this gets long, so again, thanks everyone, pro and con, for expanding this into an interesting and probably useful discussion. ] (]) 00:40, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Are you really arguing that, because the 8-circuit page says it's a "model", it doesn't fit the defining first sentence of FRINGE which says {{tq|the term fringe theory is used in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field.}} Does that mean you believe sasquatch, Ayurveda, indigo children, etc. are not under the purview of FRINGE because they aren't explicitly called "theories"? What do you think models are based on? ] (]) 01:19, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::The 8-circuit model page is a garbage walled garden consisting entirely of an in-wooniverse description of the model sourced ''exclusively'' to its practitioners and bizarre 90s-HTML-coded new-age blogs like "". It should be TNT'd. ] (]) 01:27, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Regarding {{tq|there is no woo in Leary's work being discussed.}} | |||
| :::{{tq2|The first four circuits concern themselves with life on ], and the survival of the human species. The last four circuits are post-terrestrial, and concern themselves with the evolution of the human species as represented by so-called ], ], ] experiences, ] states of mind, and ] abilities.<sup>]'']</sup> The proposal suggests that these altered states of consciousness are recently realized, but not widely utilized. Leary described the first four as "larval circuits", necessary for surviving and functioning in a terrestrial human society, and proposed that the post terrestrial circuits will be useful for future humans who, through a predetermined script, continue to act on their urge to migrate to outer space and live extra-terrestrially.}} ] (]) 01:32, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you for not trying a NAC - I believe you've misunderstood the nature of this issue if you think this is about the content dispute, as explained in both my original report and below. ] is in the header, not sure how you missed that. ] (]) 07:37, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{moved from|]|2=] (]) 14:12, 1 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| '''Request''' - Can someone uninvolved please collapse everything from this comment up to Snowrise's? This didn't go anywhere and I'm not sure why they wrote so much but I don't feel they've added anything new to the discussion. ] (]) 07:46, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Question''' - Why is this at ]? Why can't ] be the proper forum for an editor insisting on taking the fringe view that ] is a serious scholar? Why bring this dispute here? I realize that ] can sanction ], but that hasn't been proposed, and I don't think it is in order anyway. So why are we on this noticeboard? ] (]) 06:23, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:, and nothing so far from Randy on this topic has given me the impression he's willing to ]. Several people have now told him the ''exact same thing'' and he continues to insist that the fact that Leary has a "model" and not a "theory" somehow makes it not ]! This is a clear case of ], and RfC or other process cannot resolve it, it is an issue of editor behavior and not about the content dispute. ] (]) 07:28, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::A bit unrelated, but this user is persistent and repeating their own views (by not following the policy or guidelines) despite what has been written about the discussion topic on another page, just like what you wrote above. ] 07:56, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Now a further pile-on? The dispute at '']'' is that Nyxaros came by, removed two long-term images, won't allow me to put those back, and, even odder, won't allow the addition of the fair-use ''Some Like It Hot'' trailer - and I'm the bad guy? I've asked for help on this at WikiProject Film. ] (]) 10:50, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::I didn't write you are the "bad guy". You recently added these "long-term" files and denied a valid refinement. Instead, you presented your own thoughts and how you think things should be. Although I showed the information page and the guideline, and offered improvement ideas for your additions, I have observed that you have been following a repetitive attitude similar to what other editors have mentioned here. I encourage you to provide reliable info (from a guideline or policy) that supports your views, and to re-read and re-examine the summaries and messages I (and others) have written on talk pages, rather than repeating your views. ] 18:39, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::> ''"... denied a valid refinement."'' – Does this translate to: "reverted a non-policy-based deletion of content"? – ] <sup>]</sup> 06:46, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::It is clear from this comment alone that you are not following the discussion(s) well and not doing much to contribute to this one's conclusion, so why bother with a snarky remark? No one has time for that. ] 11:25, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::This section and the other page(s) cited above show why the user ignores the comments of other users and adopts a "my way or the highway" attitude, adding what he wants to pages when he could fix the problems. . In conclusion, these are just what I and other editor(s) here have observed. I hope the user will try to be more constructive and find common ground with others (for example, by reviewing the messages they received as I mentioned above). ] 11:25, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''No, that's not going to happen.''' We don't hat comments just because you happen to disagree with the assessment contained therein. Nothing I said was not already told to you by at least two people before I commented (with the overall assessment that bringing it here was premature also being reiterated by Robert immediately above: the fourth editor to tell you that). Is Randy clearly wrong about some of the underlying content issues? Yes, I think so. Kind of profoundly, honestly. In fact, I've joined one of the discussions now to tell him as much and add a little bit of extra emphasis to try to get him to moderate his approach. But has he violated policies in such a way that he's going to get sanctioned just for sticking to his guns? No, not as yet. He's verging on tendentiousness, but he hasn't crossed that line. You can't just invoke "]" like a talisman at ANI and expect the community to rush in: editors are allowed to be IDHT with regard to content (i.e. have a different view of content issues and not concede to yours). Only where the IDHT relates to behavioural issues does it become a matter for ANI. | |||
| {{vandal|John40332}} – On {{No redirect|:Psycho (1960 film)}} ({{diff|Psycho (1960 film)|1266578685|1265765039|diff}}): account is being used only for promotional purposes; account is evidently a spambot or a compromised account. User's recent edits have been dedicated almost invariably to inserting links in classical music-related articles to an obscure sheet music site. Behavior appeared to be ] and ]. Personal attempts to curb this behavior or reach a compromise were rejected by user. ] resulted in ], despite three other editors informing user that their edits appeared to be spam or some kind of advocacy. ] (]) 08:50, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :At the point that it was just you, Randy, and another editor (and Randy had BRD on his side, because the version he was arguing for was the longstanding, stable version of the article), your argument for "edit warring" was extremely weak (and involved you violating the policy at least as much as him, if not more). As of now, that has changed, because there are now five of us on the Eight Circuit article talk page telling him his views on the sourcing are not consistent with policy. So now, if he tries to add the content back in (without first forming a new consensus to support that approach), it definitely will be edit warring and tendentious on his part, and I'm sure more of us will be supportive of taking action. But based on what has transpired so far, I'm not sure what you think we would (or even can) do? Especially considering you played the edit war game with him at length to enforce your preferred version, rather than just taking the matter straight to AN3, our hands are a little tied. '']]'' 08:56, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Not a bot and not spamming, you just keep ] me repeatedly, I cited sources to the publisher of the books in question. You appear to suffer from ] and act like I need your consent to edit the articles you feel that belong to you. You also know I'm not a compromised account, you spam ] on your reverts but you're mostly bullying other editors into submission. | |||
| ::Thanks for the comments. As for removing the long-term use descriptors from the page on Timothy Leary's model of personality development, Leary was a pioneer of 1950s personality tests and studies while at Harvard who then came up with the 8-circuit model for personality development and solidification on which full books have been written. Because Leary's fifty-year-old yet still-read and functional model is not being discussed in present-day professional literature doesn't seem to explain why fringe editors are trying to saddle his legacy with flat-Earth no-Moon-landing bigfeets to justify gutting the long-term use page descriptors. ] (]) 10:50, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :You've been asked to stop disrupting editing https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:CurryTime7-24#January_2025 , and continue to harass any edits that touch "your" articles. | |||
| :::FRINGE explicitly requires minority and fringe ideas to be contextualized with the mainstream stance on those ideas. You said it yourself: {{tq|...Leary's model is not being discussed in present-day professional literature}}. Because Leary's model has ''only'' (according to the sourcing in the article) been reviewed significantly by other fringe proponents who subscribe to his beliefs (not to mention co-published with him), it currently fails independence and fails NFRINGE. That warrants ''at least'' a major gutting of the article, and if no mainstream academic sources discussing it can be found it should be deleted. ] (]) 16:35, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :You also keep saying I add citation to obscure music sites, just because you don't know something doesn't make it obscure. Additionally, you are the only person raising this as an issue because you're extremely controlling of the articles, you don't own Misplaced Pages and hopefully some other editor or admin can remind you of that. ] (]) 09:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::On the other hand, as noted above, the concept that "set and setting" matter (which Leary popularized) is still current. – ] <sup>]</sup> 22:07, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Are you claiming that SheetMusicX is a reliable source for these articles? If so then someone (it may be me but I don't guarantee it) should take it to ]. I note that several editors have queried this, not just CurryTime7-24. John40332 is clearly not a spambot or compromised account, so please avoid over-egging the pudding. ] (]) 18:19, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Ok? Is that an integral part of his 8-circuit model? ] (]) 00:29, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::It is reliable and listed with other , it's the homepage of the Canadian music publishing house Edition Zeza, their books are part of the , shows their books in libraries around the world etc, I shouldn't even have to dig this far because 1 editor decided he ] Misplaced Pages. The links I had included provided relevant information about the articles I was editing (orchestration, dates, duration etc). Cited information from a publisher of said work, which is exactly what ] suggests doing. ] (]) 18:41, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No; that was in relation to the issue of Leary's ideas "being discussed in present-day professional literature", the criterion you just cited for not being FRINGE. And that in turn suffices to qualify him for the category "consciousness researcher"... though, BTW, where is it written that this category '''excludes''' FRINGE? – ] <sup>]</sup> 05:58, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::The editor's history does seem suspicious. From 2014 to 2023 they made a total of 24 edits to article space, almost all of which were to ] and ]. Then after more than a year of no edits, in the last 5 weeks they have made 38 edits to article space, of which all except three added a reference to sheetmusicx.com. This is a commercial site that sells sheet music. As far as I can see, every reference added was a link to a page that sells a particular piece of sheet music. This certainly seems like ]. ] (]) 19:00, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::? Read the paragraphs above. We are discussing the eight-circuit model ({{tq|...Leary's model is not being discussed in present-day professional literature}}), not random other ideas from Leary. ] (]) 06:57, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::So is the problem that I'm actively contributing now, or that the cited sources aren't good enough? You guys are grasping at straws at this point.] added links to commercial sites , such as to Fidelio Music (to which he appears to be an affiliate) and yet no one raises a flag. Even when I added a source without removing his, he removed mine to keep only his link to Fidelio Music. ] (]) 19:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Really? Insisting that Leary himself does not fit ] is sheerly about the eight-circuit model? Then, my goodness, Einstein's putting down quantum physics (because "''He'' does not play dice") should be enough to remove him from those "physicist" categories, right? We can disregard all the ''useful'' contributions if we can find one ''not'' useful, yeah? – ] <sup>]</sup> 21:56, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::There is no "you guys" here. You have exactly the same status, as a volunteer editor, as I do. I have no idea who CurryTime7-24 is, or whether that editor is an affiliate. I just know about reliable sources and that we should not be linking to ''any'' commercial site, except possibly to the original publisher of a work. ] (]) 19:38, 1 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| lol, couple of days ago. . Admins, can I revert yet? ] (]) 23:29, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *] has compiled a page, ] of edits with links to this website. This list was not created by CurryTime7-24 but by a bot looking for instances of conflict-of-interests. All of the problems you are concerned about, John40332, would not exist if you would just stop posting links to this website. If you would agree to stop referring to sheetmusicx.com, you wouldn't be "hounded" or be defending yourself and we could close this complaint. Can you agree to that editing restriction? And, if you can't, then why are you insisting on linking to this particular website? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :This is really just stealth deletion, isn't it? Quite concerning. ] (]) 01:00, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Because it's a valid source according to: | |||
| ::We're basically oscillating between two different extremes as this point. Randy seems to lionize Leary and wants an exhaustive discussion of the topic, framing it as if it were a mainstream model built on academic work (it isn't). There is a clear consensus on the talk page that the article as written is far too based upon a couple of ] works produced by Leary and an associate, and that the content overall lacks perspective and appropriate contextualization. Some have called for TNT of the article, but I see no concrete consensus on the talk page for an extensive blanking, or indeed for any specific courses of action: merely an agreement that the sourcing is inadequate for the volume of the coverage and that there are issues with tone. Advocates on both sides should be showing a little more restraint, imo. My sense of the situation with the sourcing and the impact of relevant policies is that the content will ultimately be radically reduced. But I do believe the subject is ultimately notable, so I'm not sure what a temporary TNT really accomplishes. Far, far superior to have a more neutral article which accurately situates and contextualizes the subject as being the product of new-age psuedo-mysticism filtered through the a quasi-scientific looking framework. '']]'' 02:29, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:] - "Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources" | |||
| :::> ''"... the article as written is far too based upon a couple of WP:PRIMARY works..."'' – Are we discussing <s>]</s> <small>'']''' was intended, see below]''</small>, which '''heavily''' cites WP:PRIMARY works by Sigmund Freud and associates? Should we blank '''that''' article as FRINGE? After all, as Joelle Jay quoted, ''"The notability of a fringe theory must be judged by statements from verifiable and reliable sources, not the proclamations of its adherents."'' – and the only voices in support are thereby, ''ipso facto'', "adherents". – ] <sup>]</sup> 06:07, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:] - The publisher of the work (and not only the first ever publisher, any reputable publisher of a work) | |||
| ::::Psychotherapy is not a FRINGE topic as a whole, any aspects in the article that are both FRINGE and DUE are contextualized with the mainstream stance, and a scan of the first 50 sources doesn't show a single source by Freud or his associates and very few primary sources. Please familiarize yourself with ], ], and ]. ] (]) 07:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:] - "Published means, for Misplaced Pages's purposes, any source that was made available to the public in some form." | |||
| :::::Please forgive my misnaming ''']''', which cites Freud as footnotes 3, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 21, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30, 31, 32, and 50; leaving entirely aside his "associates" and/or "adherents". – ] <sup>]</sup> 08:17, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Interestingly, "someone" (and I'm not saying it's CurryTime7-24) came to my talk page yesterday to write , I can only think of 1 person who is hounding me this much though, but that doesn't seem to be taken seriously. ] (]) 07:29, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I don't have time to read over that 135kb+ article, but if it indeed fails to describe Freudian psychoanalysis as a historical and largely deprecated system for therapy and cites only primary literature from proponents rather than critical analysis from mainstream academia, then yes those portions should be removed. ] (]) 08:48, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :That's not "interesting", that's despicable; as is your insinuation. As for sheetmusicx as as source: for what? That they published some work? Why is that noteworthy? -- ] (]) 08:00, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::After three medium-longish lede paragraphs, there's one 3-line paragraph saying in part: "Psychoanalysis is a controversial discipline, and its effectiveness as a treatment has been contested, although it retains influence within psychiatry." I'll await your having time to read it and comment. In the meantime, is Freud widely considered "FRINGE"? – ] <sup>]</sup> 16:57, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::As a source for information about the work. Yes it's despicable, and as I said, no one takes it seriously, I'm not insinuating anything, admins can look into the IP themselves. ] (]) 08:10, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::] applies, as well as ]. You don't get to demand JoelleJay read & edit a completely unrelated article for their opinion to be valid. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:04, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::So, you would prefer that this dispute continue on, which could lead to sanctions for you, rather than simply stop using this website as a reference? To me, when I see that kind of behavior, it's typically a sign of a paid editor. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 09:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::There's no dispute, it's a reliable source and ] makes a fuss about it because of his ] syndrome and potential ] with his affiliation with Fidelio Music. | |||
| ::::Why are you against a source that complies with ] ? ] (]) 09:35, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Because your use of that source is pretty clearly intended as promotional. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:27, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It's hard to understand how you can say "there's no dispute" when there is quite obviously a dispute; six editors in this thread alone have questioned your use of that source. You have invoked ] to claim that the website is an acceptable source, but I'm not sure you have understood what that guideline says about commercial sites; they are allowed as references '''only''' to verify simple facts such as titles and running times. You have not used sheetmusicx.com for such purposes; you have used it to tell the reader where they can purchase sheet music (], ], ], ], ], etc). ] (]) 01:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I used it to add relevant information that didn't exist on Misplaced Pages. | |||
| ::::::When I added "Psycho A Narrative for String Orchestra" that exists since 1968 and never mentioned on Misplaced Pages, but CurryTime decided to harass me there too. | |||
| ::::::When I added the orchestration for Tambourin Chinois , which CurryTime decided to remove too. | |||
| ::::::I used information by the publisher to confirm facts, as per ], if commercial sources are not allowed to verify contributions, then why is everyone so quiet about CurryTime's affiliation to Fidelio Music links ? So far these comments are a good example of ], first I was accused of spamming, then of being a bot, then that my account was compromised, then that the source used wasn't reliable, if you run out of ideas try my religion or ethnicity. ] (]) 08:50, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Yes, you added the bit about Psycho - which included the link ''with the same phrasing as on the other edits'' where it was obvious "buy this music here". Your edits are either promotional or are indistinguishable from being promotional. That is why they are being removed. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You have repeatedly said that CurryTime7-24 is an affiliate of Fidelio. Can you show us your evidence of that? ] (]) 18:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Here he removed my source to add Fidelio Music | |||
| ::::::Here again to make sure only Fidelio Music exists | |||
| ::::::And obviously here, deleting what I added to include Fidelio Music exclusively | |||
| ::::::Here he completely deleted everything I added about the piece as part of his ] ] (]) 19:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That may be evidence of something, good or bad, but it's certainly not evidence that that editor is an affiliate. But, anyway, the action that hould have been taken a few days ago has now been taken, so we can stop talking now. ] (]) 20:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It would be nice if an admin would compare the IP address 181.215.89.116 that told me to on my Talk Page, to existing users, now that would be fun to find out who is so against my edits, because so far the only action was a suspension. ] (]) 08:58, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::In any case the most obvious guess is: some unrelated troll who saw your name on this board. —] (]) 22:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| It appears that there is consensus here and at ] against linking to Sheet Music X. Is it possible for an admin to propose a resolution here? —] (]) 17:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The only consensus is your ] syndrome, the sources linked are reliable and fit for purpose. People have questioned my use of the source, not the reliability of it. | |||
| I won't pretend to understand the underlying content issues, but I can read diffs perfectly well and it seems quite clear that the OP's original case was incredibly weak, with a couple of clear misinterpretations being debunked by MJL very early in this thread. IMO, it's a bit concerning that the OP never acknowledged the problems with their evidence. ] (]) 01:11, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :You created this complaint stating that I'm a spammer, a bot or a compromised account, has that consensus been reached too ? ] (]) 18:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, {{u|John40332}}, you are wrong about the lack of consensus, and there is ''clear'' consensus against you linking to that commercial sheet music sales site. So, either you agree to stop doing so, or you get subjected to formal sanctions. Which will it be? ] (]) 18:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::So CurryTime can throw random accusations until something sticks? ] (]) 18:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::OK, then. {{u|John40332}} is indefinitely blocked from article space. The editor is free to make well-referenced, formal ] on article talk pages. The editor is warned that continuing to attempt to add links to Sheet Music X may lead to a sitewide block. The editor is advised to read the ]. ] (]) 19:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I made well referenced edits directly from a reputable publisher. Enjoy the power trip. ] (]) 19:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Please refrain from ] which violate policy. ] (]) 19:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Let me quote Misplaced Pages's page for Power Trip "(...) someone in a position of greater power uses that power unjustifiably against a lower-ranking person, typically just for display of dominance.", since you showed up just to block me when I haven't even edited anything else until this incident was cleared. I didn't spam, I'm not a bot, my account isn't compromised, I referenced a reputable publisher that due to CurryTime's ] and ] made him start this issue. ] (]) 19:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Put that shovel down before you are indef blocked completely. '''increase indef block to all namespaces''' for battleground mentality. ] (]) 19:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}}The block is now sitewide. ] (]) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ===More stuff=== | |||
| Kryn has a recent history of engaging in tendentious editing. This shows that last December's ANI (as posted by the OP above ) had no effect on his behavior. The reason for posting this is I think sanctions are needed to interrupt this kind of editing. . | |||
| *Most recently they removed the notability tag from "Eight Circuits" which contravenes a strong consensus on the talk page and The consensus is that this topic is not covered by independent sources. I requested that he restore the tag but this has been ignored. Also, on the talk page, it is clear he is trying to resist consensus. Also after clear consensus is demonstrated on the talk page, even at this ANI he is asking the Admins if he can revert the page back to his preferred version (in so many words). | |||
| == ] and removal of sourced information == | |||
| *Also recently he has been editing tendenitously at "]." This dispute has been mentioned in this ANI , . | |||
| {{atop | |||
| :: -Here ] edits out trivial images with the rationale: "Both images do not contribute anything to the article. Just because they are related to the film doesn't mean they should be used (randomly, between paragraphs) | |||
| | status = no action at this time | |||
| :: -Kryn reverts misrepsenting Nyxaros rationale in the edit history . | |||
| ::-Nyxaros reverts pointing out that trivial images contravene ], "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative." | |||
| ::-Kryn reverts trying to change the nexus of the issue without being grounded in ]. | |||
| ::-Here Kryn restores image and trailer. | |||
| ::-Here Nyxaros removes the trailer and writes "You forgot the talk page discussion AND added unsourced "Faro Island Film Festival" awards (+not notable)? Do not own." | |||
| ::-Here Kryn reverts again . | |||
| :There is no reason for Kryn to keep editing this stuff back in without discussion, when it has been pointed out this is a policy or guideline issue. Obviously, Nyxaros is trying to keep this page in agreement with ]. And for insight into this - see the talk page discussion . Also, Kryn does avoid the bright line of 3RR but edits the article to their their preferred version over the period of days. | |||
| | result = Participants reminded to attempt communicating with other editors before reporting their behaviour to ANI. ] (]) 21:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *As recently as May 18 he has engaged in tendentious editing at ]. | |||
| }} | |||
| :Here he takes it right up to the line with three reversions: | |||
| :- First , | |||
| :- Second , (Here he cites BLP, but not based on the actual guideline, rather based on knowing "many witches, all fine people ....and makes Misplaced Pages, in its voice, demean hundreds of thousands of individuals and readers who identify as witches.") | |||
| :-Third | |||
| :Also, as noted on the talk page, apparently he was editing against consensus , . :Also, it appears a group of editors keeps this article in agreement with policies and guidelines, according to those diffs. Here he is admonished to "Read sources and seek consensus on talk. This is about the worldwide definition, not modern redefinitions as found in new religious movements like Wicca." | |||
| This seems to be an ongoing issue. | |||
| *Regarding ], on May 14 Kryn recieved feedback on his talkpage that says {{tq|'m not saying it's not a good gallery, what I am saying is that it is wholly unsourced. And please, as per ], and please also see the 2nd point in ].}} This pertains to kryn's editing behavior on this article. | |||
| :Here an editor adds a tag noting that only one source is used in the entire article <s></s> which contains sixteen images. | |||
| :Here Kryn removes that tag | |||
| :here the same editor removes images from the page due to lack of reliable sourcing. | |||
| :Here Kryn restores the images in protest | |||
| :Here the editor removes the images again and explains: {{tq|I am saying it is wholly uncited, this is wholly ], and has been explained to you, as per ], re-adding without providing a valid reference is disruptive editing}}. | |||
| :And there it stops. However, this again shows behavior that is not collaborative. | |||
| {{Userlinks|Vofa}} has lots of warnings about disruptive editing in their user page and a block. | |||
| I can't see going back further than this. There is also what has been posted above . In any case, the reason for posting this is to show that Kryn unpredictably engages in disruptive editing. It seems from the above, there is no set pattern other than it happens. <s>Hence, I am proposing a sanction of 1RR for a period of one month to dissuade engaging in this behavior over time. Additionally, they can continue focusing on regular editing that doesn't involve conflict.</s> I am sorry to say that random editors should not have to endure this type of behavior.---] (]) 04:19, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Most recent example of removal of sourced information: | |||
| ===Further discussion (Randy Kryn - WP:IDHT on edit warring and fringe topics)=== | |||
| :> ''"Witchcraft... "'' – where Kryn reverted the addition of "usually to cause harm" from "Short description|Practice of magic". For some reason I recall what ] wrote in an open letter after she and ] had been resettled in rural Ireland for a while: don't worry about persecution, you'll be welcome as a healer and herbalist since doctors are distant and dear ... but you'd better know where the hemorrhoid-wort grows!{{pb}}> ''"Cliffs at Étretat (Moscow)... Here an editor adds a tag noting that only one source is used in the entire article.... Here Kryn removes that tag...."'' – You omit what Kryn notes there: "removed onesource tag (visual arts pages reach notability on one museum source, and this is already covered by the refimprove tag)"; IOW, the tag saying "This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed." remains. He removed what amounts to either duplication of message, or misplaced message if it referred to notability. – ] <sup>]</sup> 05:03, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Ok thanks for your input. I think the other editor was emphasizing that there was only one source for the whole page - which consisted of a number of images not applicable to that one source at that time. So, I think it is important to note that the page was lacking sources at that time. Basically, it was Kryn's interpretation of the tags that "onesource" wasn't needed. ---] (]) 05:14, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Because the pre-existing refimprove tag already addressed that need, yes. – ] <sup>]</sup> 05:35, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{ping|Raven}}: I don't think the existing reimprove tag already addressed that need. I think in this instance it was important to emphasize that only single source existed. And I think the reimprove tag doesn't clarify that there is only a single source. ---] (]) 16:39, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The pre-existing refimprove tag literally said, verbatim: "This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed." If this '''doesn't''' address your ''"I think it is important to note that the page was lacking sources at that time"'', no number of tags could have done so. What the refimprove tag has over the '''one'''source tag is that adding one '''more''' source, so now there are just '''two''', won't make it obsolete and irrelevant. – ] <sup>]</sup> 22:36, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Point taken. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. ] (]) 00:06, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's a nuanced case and I'm inclined to agree it is weak tea to imply behavioural misconduct on. But purely for the sake of discussion, it is worth noting that whatever low bar the SNG may employ, said SNG only offers presumed notability/temporary obviation of the requirement to show significant coverage in reliable sources: every article must still establish compliance with ]/] ultimately. And one short paragraph worth of discussion on the informal website catalogue for a museum is clearly not getting that job done, so just about any tag reflecting the shortfall of sourcing there would be appropriate, imo. '']]'' 05:22, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, then, isn't it nice that there already '''was''' such a tag, which '''wasn't''' removed? – ] <sup>]</sup> 05:34, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Let's not miss the forest for the trees here: I think Steve's point in raising attention regarding this tag-removal behaviour is that (no matter how you parse the necessity for / possible redundancy of the tag) the removal feels a little reactionary, and possibly part of a pattern of defensiveness of certain content on Randy's part. Now, the reason I don't view that argument as particularly compelling is that we see evidence on that very same article of Randy giving way and ending the revert cycle once particular policy language is invoked. So taken together, the activity there is not great evidence of a behavioural issue that the community needs to restrain. That said, tedious and repeated nitpicking over the applicability of tags ''can'' be a sign of a deeper issue. I just don't think the case has been made here that the overall package of behaviours is problematic to the point of needing a sanction. '']]'' 18:52, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I agree with much of your paragraph; I also agree with Randy on the redundancy of the 2nd tag. – ] <sup>]</sup> 22:30, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse top|This is long past the point where it's useful to anyone attempting to use this noticeboard, essentially. Please discuss the policy questions in an appropriate place such as ]. There might be something useful to the question of whether Randy Kryn deserves sanction in this collapse box, but I'd recommend that if you think there is, you make a short note of it below the box. ] (]) 22:48, 5 June 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
| :> ''"Eight Circuits...."'' – I especially enjoyed Joelle Jay's remark: "'The notability of a fringe theory must be judged by statements from verifiable and reliable sources, not the proclamations of its adherents.' I think Wilson, Alli, et al fall squarely in the realm of 'adherents'." The same argument could be made against the Theory of Relativity, or Evolution, or Plate Tectonics, etc.: everyone who supports them is an "adherent" and therefore not verifiable or reliable. What a boon to FRINGE!{{pb}}> ''"Some Like It Hot..."'' - Pics were deleted without policy reason (] addresses other issues, not how many relevant pics belong in an article); Kryn restored them. This is the Way. – ] <sup>]</sup> 05:31, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I never cited ]. Neither did the editor in that diff. ---] (]) 05:47, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::You wrote, ''"Here User:Nyxaros edits out <u>trivial</u> images "'' <small></small>; since ] doesn't apply, on what policy basis were the pics '''of''' that film deleted from the article '''about''' that film? – ] <sup>]</sup> 06:34, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Raven's question answered and . ] (]) 16:53, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::That section is closed, so I can't reply there. JoelleJay says: "Nyxaros reverts pointing out that trivial images contravene WP:IMGDD". | |||
| ::::::::::At the link cited (your "209" above), Nyxaros's edit comment was "Both images do not contribute anything to the article. Just because they are related to the film doesn't mean they should be used (randomly, between paragraphs)." | |||
| ::::::::::1) I don't see IMGDD mentioned in that. | |||
| ::::::::::2) ] says things like "Place images in the section to which they are related" and "Don't add images that are not relevant." | |||
| ::::::::::3) I don't see how that mandates the removal of images that ARE "related to the film" as Nyxaros admits, thus ARE relevant to an article about it. – ] <sup>]</sup> 17:28, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::IMGD is mentioned by Nyxaros. And that would be diff 203 in my original post about this (not 201). I think it would be best to ask {{ping|Nyxaros}} about this (I just pinged them). However, I will take a stab at this. I think "related" means peripherally, incidentally, or tangentially related. This does not mean they are necessarily relevant pertaining to the topic. To me, there does seem to be a distinction. | |||
| I checked the source and the information is there on page 7. | |||
| :::::::::::Also, WP:IMGDD discourages overuse of images in the article saying: "Don't use images or galleries excessively." Also, WP:GALLERY says "Misplaced Pages is ]..." and that indiscriminate collections of images are discouraged. I paraphrased there - this "definition" also includes galleries. At minimum discussion should take place to weigh relevance by consensus, rather than impetuously adding images to the article. And it appears to me that Nyxaros was trying very hard to adhere to ]---] (]) 21:42, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::So, not the original diff we'd been discussing. It sure would have helped to state or link that earlier, when the claim about the edit-comment was made. (This is on JoelleJay, not you.) {{pb}}Over and over, Randy has tried to take issues to talkpages rather than to competing edits; is it just barely possible that if you folks had tried meeting him on that level and '''discussed''' what changes you wanted and why (in specific words, not just page-links which lead to multiple different statements of which most aren't relevant), you might have '''persuaded''' him rather than having such a conflict? {{pb}}Successful attorney Gerry Spence wrote a book, ''How to Argue and Win Every Time'', which suggests getting your opponent to '''''want''''' to agree with you. It's a great book, and I recommend it. For everyone. – ] <sup>]</sup> 22:13, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::For reference, this is the diff sequence in question: | |||
| :::::::::::::{{tq2|-Here User:Nyxaros edits out trivial images with the rationale: "Both images do not contribute anything to the article. Just because they are related to the film doesn't mean they should be used (randomly, between paragraphs)<br> -Kryn reverts misrepsenting Nyxaros rationale in the edit history .<br> -Nyxaros reverts pointing out that trivial images contravene WP:IMGDD, "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative."}} | |||
| :::::::::::::And here is the dispute: | |||
| :::::::::::::#You inexplicably interpret Steve Quinn's use of the word "trivial" in diff 201 to be an (unlinked, uncapitalized) invocation of the AfD essay WP:TRIVIAL, which it seems you believe is a policy | |||
| :::::::::::::#You dismiss his argument on the basis that WP:TRIVIAL "addresses other issues" | |||
| :::::::::::::#When Steve Quinn says he never cited WP:TRIVIAL, you quote diff 201 to imply he is lying | |||
| :::::::::::::#When others explain to you that "trivial" is an English word and not just a wikipedia shortcut, you demand {{tq|Then where's the policy mandating the ''"edit'' ''out'' '' trivial images"?''}} | |||
| :::::::::::::#I quote diff 203 ''two items down'' from diff 201, which helpfully not only provides the info page WP:IMGDD where relevant policy is linked, but also demonstrates that Nyxaros had referenced this page in their edit summary | |||
| :::::::::::::#Quoting two diffs from the same small subsection regarding the same edit series is apparently just too complex to follow along | |||
| :::::::::::::] (]) 23:34, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::Inexplicably you misstate your case: ''"3. When Steve Quinn says he never cited WP:TRIVIAL, you quote diff 201 to imply he is lying"'' – No, I quoted Steve himself, not (then) his diff of that edit by ]. Only later did I quote that diff's edit-comment, after *you*, JoelleJay, said Nyxaros had cited ]... which was nowhere in that diff's edit. Then Steve said you were referring to a ''different'' diff, and I commented that it would have been nice if you'd so indicated at the time.{{pb}}> ''"Quoting two diffs from the same small subsection regarding the same edit series is apparently just too complex to follow along"'' – Try, paraphrasing a ''different'' diff than the one being discussed, and ''not indicating the fact'' (as by attaching the link), makes it seem like a misquote or misattribution. The same would happen if the references were two different sections of the same article, two different areas of the same book, two different books by the same author, etc. {{pb}}Failing to indicate a change of context or referent is a failure of the writer, not the reader; and mocking the reader for not reading your mind to realize your change (or know to '''which''' diff/section/area/book you'd changed focus) is an attempt at burden-shifting, with insults on top of it. Neither civil nor honest. How disappointing. – ] <sup>]</sup> 04:04, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::If you cannot recognize from context that "diff 201" etc. should be read as the ''item in the list quoted above'' with Steve Quinn's commentary on and link to diff 201 etc., then you lack the competence and collaborative capacity to participate here. | |||
| :::::::::::::::''I'' did not say that Nyxaros had cited IMGDD, nor did I paraphrase ''anything''; I quoted ''the item in the list with Steve Quinn's commentary on and link to diff 203''. Your statement {{tq|Then where's the policy mandating the ''"edit'' ''out'' '' trivial images"?''}} '''does not''' restrict citation of this "policy" to diff 201 itself, to discussion of diff 201, or to any of the diffs and discussions by Steve Quinn at all; I could have eliminated the green quoted text and my answer would have been just as appropriate (as further evidenced by @]'s comment). My inclusion of the quote was a nod at how ''utterly ridiculous'' your question was considering the text *you* quoted was just two items above the answer to your question. | |||
| :::::::::::::::Stop wasting people's time with captious, misguided, and irrelevant sniping. ] (]) 17:27, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::"diff 201" is ''not mentioned'' at ], which was where Steve had sent me with his above comment "Raven's question answered here and here."{{pb}}I came back from there, mentioned the absence of the purported edit-comment from the diff that Steve had cited after "trivial images".{{pb}}Steve then pointed to a ''different'' diff.{{pb}}To that I replied, "So, not the original diff we'd been discussing. It sure would have helped to state or link that earlier, when the claim about the edit-comment was made. (This is on JoelleJay, not you.)"{{pb}}AFTER that was cleared up, you began suggesting I should have known it beforehand, retroactively as it were, and NOW you say, ''"If you cannot recognize from context that "diff 201" etc. should be read as the item in the list quoted above with Steve Quinn's commentary on and link to diff 201 etc., then you lack the competence and collaborative capacity to participate here."''{{pb}}As for "context" – the exchanges between Steve and me had the ''context'' of the diff I quoted Steve citing. The paraphrase of Nyxaros you posted on WP:AN ''neither'' attributed it to Steve's earlier text on this page ''nor'' included that cite/diff.{{pb}}Once again: when a writer fails to include enough information for readers to identify their source, that is the writer's failing, not the readers' for not mind-reading. Your continued attempt at burden-shifting is now also "]". – ] <small>]</small> 01:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::Your question was this: {{tq|You wrote, ''"Here User:Nyxaros edits out trivial images"'' <small></small>; since ] doesn't apply, on what policy basis were the pics '''of''' that film deleted from the article '''about''' that film?}} | |||
| :::::::::::::::::The quotation you provided is ''wholly irrelevant'' to answering the question you asked as the P&G basis is self-evident in the edit summary accompanying that quote. Everyone else understands that P&G-based edits can be made without explicitly citing the P&G shortcut in an edit summary, because long-term editors are expected to be competent enough to recognize P&G rationales without ALLCAPS links. If an editor does not recognize paraphrased P&G and requests the justification for an edit, it is assumed they want a link to the relevant page, not for another editor to point out precisely which word in an edit summary is intended to be a shortcut to that page. So your expectation that ''all subsequent discussion'' would be directly tied to ''that specific diff'' is nonsensical. It is no one's fault but your own that you decided use of the word "trivial" ''must'' mean the author is citing WP:TRIVIAL; and then when disabused of this apparently made the illogical leap to believing that a) some ''other'' word in that particular diff/commentary must be covertly citing a policy shortcut, and b) everyone would read your mind and realize you were expecting the policy justification to be ''from that diff''. | |||
| :::::::::::::::::That you ''also'' somehow failed to notice that an edit summary containing an ALLCAPS reference to P&G rationale, concerning the '''exact same content∆''' as in diff201, actually ''was'' provided just two items below diff201 (which again, ''you quoted'', so forgive us for assuming you also read the two sentences directly after it), is utterly beyond explanation. ] (]) 02:22, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::> ''"an edit summary ... concerning the '''exact same content∆''' as in diff201"'' – Was not, however, itself the 'exact same' edit summary as in diff201. Your argument presumes that if diff_A and diff_B both "concern" content_X, then anyone who has seen diff_A has also seen diff_B... perhaps through some same-'concern' auto-linking feature? This is clearly, obviously, blatantly '''not''' the case. So clearly, obviously, etc., that it takes a great deal of disingenuity to make (then '''keep''' making) that argument. {{pb}}By the way, you seem not to have noticed that as old ANI sections with link numbers are archived, the remaining sections have their link numbers lowered; the Nyxaros diff links posted by Steve are now in the low 100s. – ] <small>]</small> 08:13, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::{{tq|''"an edit summary ... concerning the '''exact same content∆''' as in diff201"'' – Was not, however, itself the 'exact same' edit summary as in diff201.Your argument presumes that if diff_A and diff_B both "concern" content_X, then anyone who has seen diff_A has also seen diff_B...}} Again, ''being in any edit summary anywhere'' was not a prerequisite for answering the question of what the policy basis is for removing trivial images, ''which is what you asked''. Why would it even ''matter'' whether Nyxaros explicitly provided a policy shortcut when they summarized the relevant P&Gs? | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::And even though an edit summary diff was irrelevant, ''of course'' I expected you to recognize I was quoting the statement two sentences down from the one you quoted, because it was part of a very brief, tightly-linked temporal sequence that Steve Quinn included in his summary of Randy Kryn's other conflicts--a summary ''you clearly had read'' based on your {{tq|address each of the four specific claims made about "tendentious editing" by Randy Kryn.}} Do you need me to link to that diff too or can you figure it out from here? ] (]) 01:39, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::> ''"Why would it even matter whether Nyxaros explicitly provided a policy shortcut when they summarized the relevant P&Gs?"'' – In the diff under discussion at that time, Nyxaros's edit comment was ''"Both images do not contribute anything to the article. Just because they are related to the film doesn't mean they should be used (randomly, between paragraphs)"''... which could easily be the phrasing of an ''ad hoc'' argument, as it neither cites policy nor indicates that it is "summarizing" policy. | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::Indeed, you have mocked the idea that the word "trivial" might be in reference to ], but now you're turning 180° by arguing that anyone could or should know this phrasing referred to a policy. Nice rhetorical footwork. – ] <small>]</small> 02:35, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::::"Where in the specific wording of this specific diff commentary is the editor invoking a policy justification" was ''not'' your question. Your question didn't even require that the author had intentionally referenced policy in any diff; just the existence of a policy basis for the referenced action would suffice regardless of the reason for doing it. | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::::I {{tq|mocked the idea that the word "trivial" might be in reference to ]}} because no one would be so clueless as to use an utterly unrelated ''AfD essay section'' as a rationale for removing an image, so why would you even think that was an ''option''. ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]? ] (]) 06:01, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::::> ''"to use an utterly unrelated ''AfD essay section'' as a rationale"''  {{eio}} – Congratulations, you have just restated what I (more gently) said three days earlier, "deleted without policy reason (WP:TRIVIAL addresses other issues, not how many relevant pics belong in an article)". – ] <small>]</small> 06:53, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::::::You thought there was more than a 0% chance that the word "trivial" in that exchange referred to WP:TRIVIAL, while at the same time ignoring the rest of the diff/comment actually documenting the rationale AND the followup diff/comments that literally ''do'' cite the shortcut for that rationale. ] (]) 17:43, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::::::No point my answering someone who keeps playing ]. – ] <small>]</small> 22:33, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Raven, first I am posting this link to the discussion page on "Some Like It Hot" . This was in my original post. So I have to agree that discussion might have been better. But my experience of discussion with him on the "Eight circuits" talk page seemed to indicate he was not willing to move off his position, or compromise, no matter what. See the "Discussion" section on that page . I'll have to go back and see if we had linked to too many guidelines and policies in that discussion - which I have recently noticed Randy does not relate to (after I posted this). I think it is important to be accommodating if that is possible. Also, a caveat. The discussion does not start out in a good way during mine and Randy's initial interaction. We have since mended fences about that interaction. So after this, a more elaborate discussion takes place. Notice there is a 10 hour passage of time between the initial discussion and Shibbolethink's comment. ---] (]) 00:45, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::One more thing, it seems difficult for editors to be "heard" in their interactions with Randy. So, this does wear down editors. ] (]) 00:55, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::You might have tried bringing THAT issue (too) directly to Randy before bringing it to 3rd parties. Tell me, if someone has a gripe about '''you''', would you rather they tell you about it first, last, or somewhere in the middle? This certainly isn't an RfC, but ] has good advice. – ] <sup>]</sup> 04:10, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::{{u|Raven}} Yes. Good point. I would rather someone tell me about it first. In light of this and other considerations I have withdrawn my proposed sanction. Also, I appreciate the conversations we have had. However, I think, for the most part, I will bow out of this section. Hopefully that is OK with you. ---] (]) 00:51, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::Sure. I'm glad this was an educational experience! :) – ] <small>]</small> 01:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::Well, it is interesting how it didn't get past you that, for me, "this was an educational experience" without me saying that. Kudos! ---01:21, 4 June 2023 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ::The same argument ''would have'' been made for all of those topics during whichever periods of time they were controversial minority views. They are ''currently'' mainstream and so we do not treat them as FRINGE topics. If you do not understand the definition of FRINGE used on wikipedia you can start a thread at the Tea House or FTN, but re-explaining it to you here is not productive. ] (]) 07:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::> ''"The same argument would have been made for all of those topics during whichever periods of time they were controversial minority views."'' – IOW, following your preferred process those would have been declared FRINGE theories — although they were more correct than "majority" views, as showed by further research (and "paradigm changes" as the older generation faded away while younger, more flexible minds took over). Right? – ] <sup>]</sup> 08:43, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::.....yes, if we were writing WP articles at the time those theories were considered by reliable mainstream academic sources to be fringe (or more correctly alternative formulations with minority support), they would be treated as FRINGE/given appropriate weight and context. As is prescribed by ]. The ECM has at no point been supported by mainstream scholarship in the areas it purports to contribute, and in fact has been entirely ignored by it, so coupled with it clearly ''not'' being an alternative theoretical formulation it must be treated on WP as the pseudoscience it is. ] (]) 09:04, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The point here is that nobody is asking for this article to be given any prominence whatsoever at the article on ]. It is simply being suggested that enough coverage exists for an article to exist outlining the theory. These are quite different arguments. ] (]) 12:25, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Agreed. Thankfully, it looks as if discussion on the talk pages is starting to turn towards an approach which accounts for that distinction. '']]'' 18:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Fringe topics are not notable if they cannot be contextualized by mainstream sources, so the suggestion that "enough coverage exists" for notability is false. ] (]) 20:15, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I'm sorry Joelle, but even as someone new to this discussion by way of this ANI filing, and who has thus only had a couple of days to look into the sources, I can see that this is plainly not true. There are at least dozens and potentially hundreds of ] which establish the ] of this topic. Not all of them discuss the topic in depth, and fewer still come from the field of academics which this psuedoscience apes, but contrary to what you've implied above a few times, nothing in ] (or the the related ]) requires that they be. The closest anything in the policy gets to that assertion is {{tq|"While a lack of peer-reviewed sources does not automatically mean that the subject should be excluded from Misplaced Pages, there must be adequate reliable sources to allow the subject to be covered in sufficient detail without engaging in original research"}}. | |||
| :::::::And aside from that, there are ''some'' academic treatments of this work, as google scholar reveals. I'm not saying that care will not be needed to keep the content tonally appropriate to prevent the article from presenting Leary/Wilson's ideas as legitimate consensus science--extreme care will be needed to that end. But there are far too many sources to credibly argue that this topic is not notable or can't be appropriate contextualized for the reader, imo. A significant reduction and restructuring of the content will be necesary, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater is not advisable here. '']]'' 23:51, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::{{tq|Additionally, in an article about the minority viewpoint itself, the proper contextual relationship between minority and majority viewpoints must be made clear.}} | |||
| ::::::::{{tq|The notability of a fringe theory must be judged by statements from ] and ], not the proclamations of its adherents.}} | |||
| ::::::::{{tq|Fringe sources can be used to support text that describes fringe theories provided that such sources have been noticed and given proper context with third-party, independent sources.}} | |||
| ::::::::{{tq|The prominence of fringe views needs to be put in perspective relative to the views of the entire encompassing field; limiting that relative perspective to a restricted subset of specialists or only among the proponents of that view is, necessarily, biased and unrepresentative.}} | |||
| ::::::::{{tq| Discussion of mainstream ideas should be sourced from reliable mainstream sources.}} | |||
| ::::::::If we do not have independent non-FRINGE RS describing how ECM fits in with the mainstream, the article cannot possibly meet the requirements at FRINGE. ] (]) 01:02, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I'm sorry, but the conclusion that you reach at the end there is just clearly not found in the policy itself, and is pretty massively inconsistent with the vast number of articles we have on psuedoscientific topics that can't be "described in terms of how they fit in the mainstream", because they have no proper role in mainstream science (and yet are still notable topics that it serves our readers to have articles about). If your rule were actually found in ] (and it isn't), then we would have thousands less articles on various types of snake oil, conspiracy theories, and psuedoscience. Again, FRINGE is express about what is and is not required: coverage in scientific literature is not mandatory, even for science-adjacent woo, but rather we are constrained in how we can describe such topics in Wikivoice. But the absence of such sources does not by any stretch of the imagination mean that we therefore jetison the entire article as impossible to write. That's just not how notability/inclusion criteria work on this project, even for controversial or fringe topics. | |||
| :::::::::Meanwhile, as to all the portions of the policy that you selectively quoted, pulling them out of their full context, there's still not a single one of them with policy considerations that cannot be met with the substantial number of sources available in this instance. And with the exception of the sources Randy was advocating for (which we've now collectively pushed back against as the primary basis for the article), all of the sourcing is ]. '']]'' 01:43, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::How do you propose we neutrally cover a (hypothetical) FRINGE concept that is only discussed by FRINGE sources? We absolutely should jettison an article if it cannot be contextualized with the mainstream, I don't know how it could be any clearer from {{tq|The prominence of fringe views needs to be put in perspective relative to the views of the entire encompassing field; limiting that relative perspective to a restricted subset of specialists or only among the proponents of that view is, necessarily, biased and unrepresentative}}. | |||
| ::::::::::Note that I am not saying ''this absolutely is the case for ECM'', I said ''if'' it is then the article should not be retained (and that the sourcing before @]'s edits was severely inadequate). If you have found mainstream RS that discuss ECM in-depth ''and'' describe its level of acceptance within the relevant mainstream fields, then go ahead and post the links. What I got out of google scholar were some articles (in fields related to ECM only to the extent that the margins of any field can engage with any vague unempirical system of mystical precepts) providing uncritical coverage of the idea (like one in media ecology that seems to operate entirely within Leary's cosmology), and a good number of unreliable occult books from people who subscribe to such things. ] (]) 02:34, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I also checked out Google scholar and came up with the same results as JoelleJay. There doesn't seem to be anything useful there.] (]) 02:57, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::> ''"What I got out of google scholar were some articles (...) providing uncritical coverage of the idea (like one in media ecology that seems to operate entirely within Leary's cosmology), and a good number of ... books from people who subscribe to such things."'' – Absent pejoratives, this seems to say "Yeah, GS had sources supporting Leary, but ''therefore'' I reject them." – ] <sup>]</sup> 03:34, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Indeed! Because ''that is what FRINGE tells us to do'': {{tq|] are stricter than ]: the notability of a fringe theory must be judged by statements from ] and ], ''not the proclamations of its adherents.''}} emph mine ] (]) 17:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::By that logic, Relativity, Evolution, Plate Tectonics, and the Heliocentric Model ''could never have become'' NON-Fringe, because "the proclamation of their adherents" would always have been dismissed out of hand, and they would have continued to be judged only by their doubters' statements. – ] <small>]</small> 00:31, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::So you still haven't actually read FRINGE, in particular the section distinguishing it from alternative formulations. Or maybe you just don't understand how scientific consensus works. ] (]) 01:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::If every person/publication that "supported" or "adhered to" those theories had been '''''disregarded''''' under your proposed rule, that means they would not have been '''''regarded''''' as forming a consensus. That appears to be how '''''you''''' think scientific consensus '''''should''''' work. – ] <small>]</small> 01:19, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::That's not a "proposed rule"; if you haven't caught on yet (and this would actually explain a lot), the green text indicates a direct quote. Anyway, you still haven't read fringe/alt, and you're seemingly unaware that scientific consensus changes based on mainstream publications demonstrating empirical evidence. A "fringe adherent" is defined based on how little their fringe idea receives critical support from within the larger academic field. If the fringe idea eventually receives empirical validation, there will be far more "adherents", resulting in the fringe idea being considered not fringe and consequently the "adherents" will just be "mainstream". ] (]) 02:41, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::You'd said Relativity, Evolution, Plate Tectonics, the Heliocentric Model, would properly have been ruled "fringe" back when they had "minority support". The rule you're proposing is that a theory/model can be ruled "fringe" (and all its supporters and adherents likewise dismissed) '''before''' it has actually been debunked (which likewise requires reliable sources discussing it, and presenting factual disproof/s). That's how the '''''Church''''' treated the Heliocentric Model, hence Bruno's and Galileo's trials... but that's not how '''''science''''' works. Where are your RS citations of factual disproof? Waving your hands doesn't count. – ] <small>]</small> 08:37, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::Read what I wrote again (emph added): {{tq|if we were writing WP articles at the time those theories were considered by reliable mainstream academic sources to be fringe ('''or more correctly alternative formulations with minority support'''), they would be treated as FRINGE/'''given appropriate weight and context'''. As is prescribed by ''']'''. The ECM has at no point been supported by mainstream scholarship in the areas it purports to contribute, and in fact has been entirely ignored by it, so coupled with it clearly ''not'' being an '''alternative theoretical formulation''' it must be treated on WP as the pseudoscience it is.}} But the statement holds true regardless that Misplaced Pages reflects what the mainstream consensus is, and if the mainstream regards a hypothesis as fringe, or the hypothesis is so obviously in conflict with basic natural laws that no one in the mainstream even bothers to acknowledge it, we faithfully represent that consensus by noting the hypothesis is fringe or just not covering it at all. ] (]) 01:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::> ''"... if the mainstream regards a hypothesis as fringe, or the hypothesis is so obviously in conflict with basic natural laws...."'' – | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::Again, where in that article are RSs cited for either conditional? – ] <small>]</small> 03:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::''FRINGE-compliant RS weren't cited at all''. That's why it was blanked. And if you're really going to argue ECM is not self-evidently wacko garbage then this discussion is over. ] (]) 05:21, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::::Your problem in the first place is declaring the topic "fringe" without it having been debunked (factually disproved) as had, e.g., ] (but not Relativity, despite many thinking it wacko garbage*). To say "self-evidently" is hand-waving, even ] since you cite no RSs. Where's the disproof? – ] <small>]</small> 06:45, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::::Hypotheses that rely on a natural law not existing are clearly FRINGE even if they aren't debunked. {{tq|Proposals that, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus may be so labeled and categorized as such without more justification. For example, since the universal scientific view is that ] is impossible, any purported perpetual motion mechanism (e.g. ]) may be treated as pseudoscience.}} ] (]) 17:54, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::::::1) What "natural law" does the ] violate? | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::::::2) So labeling and categorizing Relativity as {{lang|de|Grundsinnlosigkeit}}, without justification by experimental disproof, was the right move, eh? | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::::::3) You think "the universal scientific view is that ] is impossible"? Have you never heard of ]? ]? ]? ]? | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::::::Ohhhh, you conflate such '''motion''' with a '''machine''' that tries to ''exploit'' such motion... and thereby slows it down. | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::::::4) And you think you understand science. – ] <small>]</small> 22:31, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::::<small></small> – Arguments remarkably similar to those made here. – ] <small>]</small> 07:36, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Should we also blank or delete ] and ]? ]? ]? – ] <sup>]</sup> 17:05, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Please stop playing (?) dumb. If you can't understand the difference between discussing a fringe idea in the context of mainstream and discussing a fringe idea without that context, you shouldn't be contributing to this discussion. --] (]) 18:01, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::> ''"discussing a fringe idea in the context of mainstream"'' – But this is not what was done to the article. See above: {{pb}}<small>lol, couple of days ago. . Admins, can I revert yet? ] (]) 23:29, 1 June 2023 (UTC){{pb}}This is really just stealth deletion, isn't it? Quite concerning. ] (]) 01:00, 2 June 2023 (UTC)</small> | |||
| :::::::{{pb}}— and —{{pb}}<small>The point here is that nobody is asking for this article to be given any prominence whatsoever at the article on ]. It is simply being suggested that enough coverage exists for an article to exist outlining the theory. These are quite different arguments. ] (]) 12:25, 2 June 2023 (UTC)</small>{{pb}} | |||
| :::::::If a bit more attention had been paid to getting straight what the opponent's argument actually '''''is''''', this wouldn't look so much like a collection of ]. – ] <sup>]</sup> 22:26, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The main person in need of the advice in your last sentence, is you. Also re: "opponents", please see ]. --] (]) 23:24, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::> ''"The main person in need of the advice in your last sentence, is you."'' – IOW, {{lang|la|"tu quoque"}} ? Sure, I'll take that advice. Which doesn't in any way negate my point above. Let neutral readers decide.{{pb}}> ''"Also re: ]"'' – see the definition of that word: 'One who opposes another; one who works or takes a position against someone or something; one who attempts to stop the progress of someone or something.'{{pb}}If being or having opponents were forbidden on Misplaced Pages, no-one would be allowed to comment "'''Oppose'''" (or its '''oppos'''ite, "Support") on RfCs or other discussions.{{pb}}The policy ] itself refers to "those with whom you have a disagreement" and "if they hold a point of view with which you disagree" — but then advises how to behave toward them. That by no means denies the '''occurrence''' of opposition here, it just guides conduct in that situation. – ] <sup>]</sup> 03:20, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Not playing then, I guess. Please find something better to do with your time. --] (]) 17:42, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::You're right, I'm definitely not joining in the game. – ] <small>]</small> 00:25, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Previous examples include: . Also see: ] ] (]) 16:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | |||
| :Just to clarify, I just noticed that there is indeed an unsourced paragraph. | |||
| *In retrospect, I think the Proposed Sanction process was derailed by the gargantuan wall of the off-topic text, which is now hatted by this box. I did participate, but I should not have allowed the derailing of the process to happen in the first place. I take responsibility for participating and allowing it to happen. My original proposed sanction should either be modified to a formal community warning or dropped. If I decide to propose a sanction I will post here, hopefully within the next 24 hours. ---] (]) 08:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :The reason for removal of sourced information would then be "removed text not relevant to Chagatai Khanate and Golden Horde in introduction". However the source does mention {{tq|The first of the changes leading to the formation of the Turco-Mongolian tradition ...}} and then gives Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate as examples. I don't see any ] or ] issues. | |||
| *I did further reading of the text that remains outside the hatted portion of this ANI. It appears that there is no consensus pertaining to whether the issues merit an ANI. Also, there is no consensus for proposed sanctions. In light of this, I am dropping the idea that any proposed sanction is appropriate. Also, I note that {{u|Softlavender}} has posted sound guidance below for how to proceed. If there are no objections, I request that this ANI thread be closed. ---] (]) 01:37, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I am concerned about removal of sourced information that does not seem to have a rationale based on ] ] (]) 16:41, 2 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Proposal''': Could everyone go back to following standard Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, such as BR'''D''', dispute resolution, and avoidance of edit wars? '''And if problems arise the correct next steps are either''' ] or usertalk-warning and then reporting at ] if EW persists. Note that even a slo-mo edit war can be reported to ANEW. <p>Misplaced Pages is really very simple when those steps are followed. And what prevents all of this ANI reporting are article-talk discussions based on sources and wiki policies, and if stalemates are reached there then RFC.<p>I say all of this because what we actually seem to have in this entire thread are '''a series of content disputes''' in which a number of people (not just the named editor) are failing to do these very simple steps. ] (]) 08:04, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hi there. The matter seems to be resolved. I did remove an unsourced paragraph and general claims not relevant to the introduction. I do not see a problem with it. You seem to have linked three edits I made. In the first edit, I had to revert because I accidentally chose the minor edit option. In the second edit, I have restored the previous version, but without a minor sign. I did not remove any sources (based on what I remember) I hope to see through my edits and understand what I did or did not do wrong. Please, avoid making an ANI in bad faith. ] (]) 03:06, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*'''Support''', per obvious. – ] <small>]</small> 01:37, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::You removed source information. The part that starts with {{tq|The ruling Mongol elites ...}} | |||
| :::{{ping|asilvering}} from the editor's talk page, you seem to be a mentor. Removing sources or sourced material without explanation, or with insufficient explanation or rationale, such as "Polished language" , is an ongoing concern with Vofa. ] (]) 15:12, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Im not sure why I’m being stalked, but the edits you’re showing as examples of myself removing sources are more than two months old. I’ve stopped removing sources. ] (]) 19:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{ping|asilvering}} This issue is still continuing ] (]) 15:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::And you previously spoke to Vofa about this where...? -- ] (]) 19:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{u|asilvering}}, I hadn't talked about removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale. | |||
| :::::I did talk about this however . See: ] | |||
| :::::I don't seek or expect a permanent block over this. But as a mentor and an administrator, maybe you can comment on removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale. ] (]) 19:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::@], that's a ''threat'', not an explanation. If you have a content dispute with an editor, which is what this appears to be, you need to be able to talk it out with them on the article's Talk page. @], please be careful to make sure your edit summaries explain what you're doing. I see that there ''was'' an unsourced statement in the link Bogazicili just supplied, so I presume that's what you meant by "unsourced". But the other statement you removed ''did'' have a source. It's ok to split your edits up into multiple edits if you need to do that to explain them properly, but you could also just give an edit summary like "removed unsourced; also, removed statement " that addresses both changes. -- ] (]) 23:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, I would not characterize this as a "content dispute". I was not involved in most of those articles. I got concerned after seeing edits market as minor removing sources or sourced material without any or proper explanation. That is not a content dispute, that is an editor conduct dispute. ] (]) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::What Vofa does at articles related to Turko-Mongolian history is not a content dispute but vandalism. It took me a lot of time to manually revert the hoax years and figures he added in ] article to decrease their population and he also removed sourced basic info from the lede of the ] which I had to restore. These are just some of few sneaky vandalism examples that I caught among the pages I patrol by Vofa. If you see his talk page, he has been warned a lot of times by many other editors for such mischief. ] (]) 07:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@], Vofa hasn't edited the Turkmens article since before they were blocked. That is obviously not an ongoing issue. As for ], I ''also'' see no discussion of those edits. If you have a problem with how someone is editing, you need to communicate with them. -- ] (]) 08:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, my concerns were removal of sourced information or sources without proper rationale or explanation. Do you think that was communicated enough to Vofa in this topic, or do we need further communication? I'm asking in case Vofa continues this type of behavior. Hopefully that won't be the case. ] (]) 08:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Im going to repeat this again; | |||
| ::::::::::I have not removed any sources since I was warned about it. | |||
| ::::::::::I do not see an issue with my recent editing. | |||
| ::::::::::You should communicate with me on any issues that you have with me. ] (]) 11:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::{{u|Vofa}}, do you see any issues with this edit: ] (]) 11:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Are you implying if I see an issue with this edit of mine or with your removal of said edit? ] (]) 15:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::{{u|Vofa}}, the former. I am asking if you see any issues yourself with your own linked edit. ] (]) 17:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::I do not see an issue with the linked edit of mine. ] (]) 19:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::Indeed, really the issue was Bogazicili's, and it has now been solved in the usual way (by restoring only the sourced content). Apologies, @], for misreading it earlier. -- ] (]) 19:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, I disagree. I did miss the unsourced paragraph. However, removal of sourced content has been an ongoing issue with Vofa. They should not have removed sourced content to begin with. | |||
| :::::::::::::::There was also a previous discussion in ANI: | |||
| :::::::::::::::] | |||
| :::::::::::::::{{u|Asilvering}}, again, is the threshold of communication met if removing sourced content by Vofa persists in the future? ] (]) 19:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::Basically, I'm not trying to get Vofa blocked, but they should be more careful in future when they remove sources or sourced content. They should have a reasonable rationale based in ], and they should explain that rationale properly. ] (]) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::Indeed they should. And you should not restore unsourced content once it has been removed. -- ] (]) 20:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::{{u|asilvering}}, the difference is I already acknowledged it multiple times. Is that not obvious? ] (]) 21:40, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::@], I'm going to close this report. No administrative action is required here at this time. You should make a habit of communicating on the article talk page when you get into a conflict with another editor, but you should ''always'' try to communicate with other editors before coming to ANI about their behaviour. This should be your last resort. If you make an earnest effort to communicate and are ignored, by all means report here. If there is edit-warring or obvious vandalism involved, please take that to the relevant noticeboard. -- ] (]) 21:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Thank you. ] (]) 11:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::This member often vandalises, in an article about ] he wrote huge numbers without backing them up with sources and tried to prove it was true. This is rabid vandalism. ] <sup>]</sup> 12:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@], vandalism has a specific meaning on Misplaced Pages; an edit being unsourced does not mean it was vandalism. Do not cast aspersions on other editors in this way. @], you are edit-warring on ]. You need to stop doing that immediately. -- ] (]) 19:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I have not edited Oirats. I have stopped edit warring. ] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ==Incivility and ABF in contentious topics== | |||
| {{Archive top | |||
| |status = none | |||
| |result = Proposal withdrawn by nom. ] (]) 10:12, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| ]'s uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it ''is'' problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days: | |||
| ===<s>Propose one month 1 RR for Randy Kryn</s>=== | |||
| <s>Please ivote "support' or "oppose". Also please see discussion section below. ---] (]) 07:58, 2 June 2023 (UTC)</s> | |||
| :::::* '''I withdraw my proposed sanction.''' ] (]) 17:51, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''oppose''' The main problem here is the fact this even being discussed at ANI. I think that this a case of wikilawfare in a content dispute. ] (]) 08:15, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Content disputes, and Kryn seems to be following policy better than his accusers. – ] <sup>]</sup> 08:46, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' this seems too heavy-handed for what appears to be a content dispute. Also, it's 'Kryn', not 'Kyrn'. ] (]) 12:36, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support ''' - I think this works, as it's a fixed time frame and addresses the issue of editor behavior, which seems to have persisted since at least the last time Kryn was brought to ANI. I don't think it's overly harsh either, most editors voluntarily end up abiding by a de facto 1RR almost all of the time anyway. ] (]) 15:47, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Neutral''', torn between realizing that this editor doesn't think his edits stink while at the same time am kind of surprised that every one of the edits being pointed out are actually pretty good and have built the encyclopedia in a pretty good direction. ] (]) 15:59, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Weak oppose.''' There are definitely issues here, largely with regard to Randy refusing the drop the stick, which have the potential to become truly disruptive. But in the current cluster of content disputes over Leary, the mishandling of the situation cannot be put at Randy's feet alone: the edit warring in particular has not been unidirectional by any stretch of the imagination, nor has he been the only party stretching the reading of policy or indulging in an overly-simplified analysis of the sources. As far as I can tell, the entire set of disputes has been characterized by some gung-ho attitudes all around. Randy happens to be mostly alone on one side of the content end of those disputes, but the 'other side' hasn't respected ] any better than he, and to the extent there are any issues with ], they too are shared by both sides. I don't want to downplay Randy's behaviour here, either: while I don't think it's sanctionable, there are elements of his editorial approach to these facts that give me concern. But nothing here justifies the proposed sanction, when you consider all context and the actions of other contributors. '']]'' 16:28, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{archive bottom}} | |||
| Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills. | |||
| == PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked == | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883 | |||
| Hi I am starting to get quite annoyed with being stalked by {{Ping|PamD}} who I feel is intentionally abusing their edit powers and ] and ] me. I'm not sure what to do about this but I am wanting to report the incidents here..please note I'm using a mobile to post this. These following sentences are from her and they are to me against ]. | |||
| WP:NPA | |||
| ""For some reason I wondered what you are doing these days and this was the first edit I looked at. I hope you're editing carefully - I won't look further as I've got other things to do today." - | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324 | |||
| And | |||
| Profanity | |||
| "This particular editor tends to remove other editors' contributions like this quite often." | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966 | |||
| On the pages ] and ]. | |||
| Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor | |||
| I really don't know how to feel about this but feel annoyed at being stalked by her and her trying to pick faults with me mostly then other editors. It seems to be only me they have interest in picking fault with on random.articles.and throwing the whole "Damaging the encyclopedia" term at me like I'm the main cause out of millions of editors. I'm tired of it and.just.want to be left alone and not bothered by them further..ive tried before to ask her to leave me alone but she carries on posting reverting and stalking me. | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877 | |||
| Please can other editors help me with being able to stop this stalking. I've made them aware of this and asked them to respond on this post. Thanks. ] (]) 00:11, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :{{Ping|DragonofBatley}} Isn't the first message you quoted here PamD explicitly promising ''not'' to stalk you? And whether or not you're offended by the words in the second quote, are they accurate? Because PamD believes she's found an ongoing problem with your contributions. That means she might be violating policy if she ''didn't'' monitor your edits for issues. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;">'']<span style="color:Green">O</span><span style="color:Red">f</span>]''</b> 00:55, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :There've been numerous times I've run into problems with one editor's contributions, then found ''another'' problem, and then ''another'' ... and so I've done a full examination of that person's editing history, and sometimes it turns up that the editor in question has committed pervasive errors needing correction. Many veteran editors have done similar examinations many times. ] 01:14, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :By my count, PamD has started 59 new sections on DragonofBatley's talk page since May 2021 (averaging more than two per month over the past two years), and made 158 edits to that talk page in total. I have no doubt these are all in good faith and in an effort to improve the quality of articles, but I think I'd also be quite annoyed if I was in DragonofBatley's shoes. It's not like there are major policy violations at play here that warrant this kind of monitoring – DragonofBatley occasionally might make a mistake when editing articles, {{em|as we all do}}, like accidentally ], or ]. This is {{em|normal}}. It is part of working on a collaborative encyclopedia. It will be fixed in time by other editors and readers. It does not require these bimonthly scoldings, put under section headings like ], ], ], ] (again!), and ]. Sometimes these aren't even mistakes, like simply PamD thinking that DragonofBatley ], or ] (this is simply a matter of editing preference). Again, I fully believe PamD is attempting to be helpful here and ensure these articles are high-quality. But this kind of long-term observation of other's edits (and repeated talk page posts) only really works when it's a mentor-mentee relationship where both parties are willing, and DragonofBatley is clearly uncomfortable. ] (]) 01:51, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's certainly very strange conduct to repeatedly leave comments at single editor's talk page over a longer period of time. I haven't looked through DragonofBatley's edits, but I agree that PamD is acting in good faith. I don't think much is needed at the moment other than to politely ask PamD to be more careful with her wording in the future. If there are major systemic issues in DragonofBatley's edits, that's a different issue that I am willing to discuss. {{ping|DragonofBatley}} Would you be interested in a mentorship from {{ping|PamD}} provided she is willing to do so? ''']''' (] | ]) 02:27, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::How could PamD be more polite when responding to an edit (]) which adds a blatant error to an article? ] (]) 02:38, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's true. As I said, I didn't look through the edits by DragonofBatley. If there are long-term issues of blatant mistakes, than I don't think any action is needed. ''']''' (] | ]) 02:53, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hi I don't want a mentorship from PamD. I've already got one I feel with editors like Crouch, Swale, Eopsid and others who collaborate with me on geographical related articles. I'm sorry if others feel she is doing things in good faith but please try to understand that I haven't even been bothered by her in weeks and then out of the blue "Just thought I'd see what your up to these days and hope your not making bad edits". I'm not a petulant child 🚸 who needs an editor to hold my hand. I want to be able to edit on articles of interest to me. I admit I at times (not often) remove original research but normally it's the present tense or out dated articles. As wiki isn't written like advertising or storytelling in terms of a towns shops or influences without sources to back them up. Or a housing development was built on a Greenfield with no relevancy. | |||
| :::I challenge certain editors if I feel they make unfair reverts or completely trample over my contributions without a second thought. Most the stuff I remove is either subjective or irrelevant like for example. I removed United Kingdom from Hereford because we had Hereford Herefordshire and England for it's railway station article. No other city uses UK because it's England the country. And I always change the km to mi because we use miles.in UK and not km like in America or Canada etc. | |||
| :::I am careful with my edits but I'm being randomly monitored when there's no need for it and I don't see other new editors being as heavily monitored as I know a few new ones from before. Please just ask PamD to leave me alone and id rather not have a mentorship as I've been on here long enough now. ] (]) 04:15, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Do you acknowledge that ] introduced an error into the article? PamD fixed that and alerted you so you would know for future edits. ] (]) 04:26, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::What's wrong with a revert + edit summary? ] (]) 05:46, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I agree. I would understand the talk page notes if they were repeatedly inserting the mistake, or had been doing across multiple articles. However, I don't think that's happened. I think all that needs to happen here is that PamG is politely told not to pester him. Revert if they want, but just leave an edit summary. ''']''' (] | ]) 06:33, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I'd prefer that in all honesty. I just want to stop the pestering it's not fair to me as I'm just trying to contribute to this site and work well with most editors but PamDs recent comments are just not on and I'll be glad if someone higher could tell her to please leave me alone. I asked her to leave me alone before but she's obviously ignored it and that last post was not on with Witney on Wye on my talk page or the language. ] (]) 07:13, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::DragonofBatley, I appreciate that you're feeling harassed; is what you are saying that you'd prefer just a ping in the edit summary when PamD or someone else reverts you? Taken in isolation, that last section on your user talk was quite polite: you made a mistake, PamD reverted it and then went to your user talk to explain why it was wrong and what you can do in future to resolve the issue. They also fixed it in to the article, as they said at your user talk, so you can see how it works. A revert with a ping is the default output when using rollback, so is usually felt to be a bit brusque, but I do appreciate that PamD has posted rather a lot on your talk page. So would you rather just the revert ping? Unfortunately, it looks as if you don't understand what was wrong with ; by switching the "km" and the "mi", you changed the distance from 25 km to 25 miles, which is incorrect. Someone fixing that mistake, no matter who they are, is maintaining the encyclopaedia. And PamD tried to explain it to you. Please instead use the "order=flip" parameter next time you want to fix a convert template that has the km value first. ] (]) 03:27, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I think I'm expected to reply, but left it a day to see what other responses there were. | |||
| :As far as I know I first encountered DragonofBatley (DoB hereafter) in May 2021 when ] was on my watchlist and I saw removals of two long-standing paragraphs of unsourced text(, ), which had never been tagged as unsourced. It looked as if this might have been ]y editing, as an unsourced addition by DoB had been 10 minutes earlier. The text DoB removed was plausible and inoffensive (not BLP, political, attack, etc), though vague and in need of sourcing, but {{tl|cn}} would have been more constructive. I posted on their talk page. It's difficult to trace the talk page history as they don't archive, but just delete, but has the "Lincolnshire" post and a couple more below where I spotted problem edits and offered constructive advice. | |||
| :DoB is an experienced and enthusiastic editor. All their edits are done in good faith, but it does look as if they don't check what they've typed, or check their links: garbled sentences, CofE churches in RC dioceses, that recent edit which moved ] by 9 miles because they didn't understand how the {{tl|convert}} template works. They work mainly on English settlements and railway stations, and our paths cross quite naturally from time to time: see ] and ]. But as Ravenswing pointed out above, when an editor sees a pattern of problematic edits they will often look at the other edits made by that editor. I've used talk page posts rather than just reverting, in the hopes of helping this editor to improve their editing. | |||
| :Yes, there were a series of talk page posts last year headed "Carelessness" etc, but "Careless please do read" was DoB's heading, and I backed off from pointing out so many careless edits: the problem has diminished, but it hasn't gone away. My recent posts on their talk page have included suggesting how to increase readership and pageviews of an article they had created, and pointing out (using a "boiler-plate" message I keep in my sandbox) the brilliant gadget which helps prevent one from linking to dab pages accidentally. | |||
| :I still think that the habit of removing longstanding article content because it's unsourced, without first leaving a {{tl|cn}} template to encourage other editors to source it, is a net negative to the encyclopedia and should be discouraged. Doing so seems particularly unhelpful. I still think that editors should check what they type to make sure it makes sense, and check their links. I wish DragonofBatley well with their editing but I wish they would, still, take a little more care. I have tried to protect the encyclopedia from some of their poor edits, and to persuade them to edit more carefully. | |||
| :I probably shouldn't have added the second paragraph of ] about ], though it explains honestly how I came across that article. The encyclopedia benefitted: I corrected DoB's mistake. I stand by the first paragraph: I found and fixed a factual error and explained how to achieve their aim (imperial-first measures) by using the "order=flip" parameter to the template, so that next time they find a similar situation they will know how to do it properly. ]] 12:12, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Out of curiosity, and please be honest as I've no choice but to take you at your word: Do you ever check DoB's contributions "out of the blue?" Or do you only view their contributions after 'fixing' one of their edits or otherwise encountering them? In other words, do you ever initiate contact with them by checking their contributions. ] (]) 18:52, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] My talk page post quoted above makes it quite clear that I did indeed have a look at their most recent contribution "out of the blue", and thereby rescued ] from the misinformation DoB had accidentally introduced. Why would I not be honest ... don't you normally take editors at their word? It's hardly polite to show such a lack of ]. ]] 07:18, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{Replyto|PamD}}I wanted a positive affirmation and not an interpretation, hence asking directly. I understand you may feel frustrated or defensive being the subject of an AN/I thread but please be careful of making such ]. Just as you wish for others to assume that you act in good faith, <s>you should</s> I'd ask you to assume others are acting in good faith. ] (]) 11:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@] Please look again at your words: "{{tq|please be honest as I've no choice but to take you at your word}}". That reads, to me, as suggesting that I may not be trustworthy (you'll have to take me at my word, for want of any other choice ... meaning, for want of something more trustworthy than what I say), and that I might not be honest unless specifically asked to be. What else can it mean? Perhaps it was a careless choice of words, but it seemed offensive. ]] 21:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| PamD is one of the most polite and patient editors I have come across, DragonofBatley is not. If you want to see why someone needs to correct his edits just look at the page history of any article he has created and the careless editing that has to be corrected after his initial start. He takes offence because he has not followed the advice offered. I am also persona non grata so I now avoid him as I really can't be bothered anymore.] (]) 13:14, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :@], I'm not a nice editor? Only you think that, doesn't make it factual. I'm actually a very nice.editor but I have had enough of being stalked. That's the difference. I didn't ask for a popularity contest. You've so far.broke. your avoiding me and you haven't only just now avoided me. You did so months ago and had a go at me for politely asking you to stop removing sourced articles on Dewsbury like minster town and having a go at me for asking you to stop removing sourced facts. Your language then was quite rude but I didn't make an issue of it cause I'm better than that. And you felt like getting personal on Skegness talkpage so I again did better by asking you and Noswall59 to stop engaging further with me because you got a bit personal and vindictive. but you still have now. So yeah 👍 nice try at trying to make me a vile editor by saying I'm not a nice editor. As far as I'm concerned your not a nice editor either. You were vile to me on many talk pages and didn't like I stood against you for it. ~ | |||
| :] (]) | |||
| :. | |||
| : ] (]) 16:16, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *I've also worked with PamD a bit lot though not much recently. Pam has used the word "careless" with be in which involved adding a separate paragraph about a topic already covered above. As far as I'm aware its not a common mistake I make so it probably didn't even need pointing out per ]. I don't know too much about the problems with DB's editing but unless serious formatting or grammar errors are frequently occurring its just best to generally just quietly fix the errors. While I appreciate PamD's support/advice these kind of words may put some people off contributing, I don't find it offensive (though it do think its a tiny bit uncivil) but some users may find it offensive especially when Pam has herself. ''']''' (]) 20:26, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Thanks fso much for your input, @]. I have worked with you a few times before in the past on Districts, UAs for places like York, Middlesbrough, Blackpool, Warrington and Chesterfield among other articles. You know and I know, we both have helped to slightly strengthen the geographical sides of WIkipedia through creating more civil parish and district/settlement/ua articles. I also created articles for the likes of ], ] and ] through thorough research and fact checking.{{pb}}It is edits like this that get overlooked and editors like Esemgee choose to ignore in favour of calling me a very nasty editor but don't have the facts to back them up other then their own vendetta. I always welcomed editors like @] to help me improve on things and tagged them where relevant for their opinions. But lately, this ] and their recent comments which I see above, she has accepted her second paragraph was a bit unprofessional but not the first. I welcome I made an error, which I have to keep saying ain't intentional and if I don't know how to fix it. I happen to leave it to fix later but then she or another editor even a bot fixes it so there is no point in faults being picked over each edit. I don't see this with many new editors or experienced/inexperienced editors.I had a rocky start at the initial beginning blah blah blah. All editors make mistakes from time to time, plenty I know have made errors or anons and resulted in me or others fixing them. Why not tell those anons straight?{{pb}}They don't. I'm just sick of the stalking and having editors like Esemgee sticking their noses in business not related to them. I am sure PamD can handle herself like I can myself and I it was a case of asking other editors to step in and help alleviate this situation. Not to point the finger and play ] on this site. If one had autism like me and kept feeling watched and hounded. It be understandable but no one else is in my situation so I have every right to call it out and ask for it to stop. I am personally tired of it and want it to stop. I am not against PamD offering advice but not like her post on my talkpage of "I was wondering what you were up to these days for some reason" and such. I ain't a petulant child.{{pb}}I have over 1000s and 1000s of edits and articles created under my alias for the site. But some don't care to think that but get all in my face for standing up to it and for being a human being who has his limits. As Crouch has pointed out, PamD has made errors before and had to fix them. Same with the unconcerned editor above and myself among others. I have respect for PamD as an editor and advisor but I don't appreciate being like a chew toy for them from time to time with nitpicking minor edits when others go on to remove counties for past counties like Oldham for Lancs then Mancs and editors removing sourced content for non sourced content. Like youtubers instead of authors and vice versa. ] (]) 21:16, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Have you acknowledged making a mistake regarding the 25 km versus 25 miles link above? It's a very minor point, but the fact that you have posted a lot of text here with no clear acknowledgement that I can see is worrying. Those suggesting that PamD has done something wrong totally miss the point that contributors have to collaborate and work together to improve the encyclopedia. This is more than a hobby where people can pass their time as they want while not caring about mistakes. ] (]) 02:12, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Regarding the edit to Whitney-on-Wye, he said {{tq|I welcome I made an error}} right above, so I don't think it's fair to say that it's still unacknowledged. ] (]) 02:18, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I’m editing from a phone and it’s problematic for adding diffs. I suggest looking at the 26 April 2023 talk page edits at ]. PamD’s behaviour on that day is sort of, well, odd. Someone posts something to Dragon’s talk page and Dragon just deletes it. PamD then appears from out of nowhere and politely berates Dragon about how to better handle their talk page. Some of the comments are valid but I kept wondering as I read them, “why are you involved in this, now?”, “who asked you?”, “are you just watching this editor all the time?” and “are you the mother-in-law?” | |||
| :::::Check them for yourself and see what you think. —<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 02:47, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::@] The talk page is on my watch list. A post was removed with edit summary "No idea what that's all about". I was curious, looked at it, and found a civil question from a sensible-seeming editor had been . I would have been interested to see DoB's reply to the post, as it raised the topic of removing untagged unsourced content, but despite having a talk page heading "Throw me your criticism in the section of the new tabs.", DoB had chosen to delete the post. This seemed discourteous to the user who had posted. I wasn't sure whether they genuinely couldn't work out that it related to (the unlinked mention of ] was a good clue): I also pinged the poster to point out the importance of using diffs on talk pages. ]] 07:30, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::So this explains why you made the choices you did, but perhaps it would be good to indicate whether you will continue to make similar choices in the future. (Personally I think it would help resolve this discussion if you would commit to stopping the busybodyish talk-page comments on subjects like talk-page etiquette where your input is not necessary or desired, while reserving the right to revert substantively problematic edits to articles.) --] (]) 17:37, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Dragon's talk page is on your watchlist, Pam? Uh huh. It might be better for everybody if that stopped being the case soon. Policing another editor's talk page is a often a good thing if they're a target of trolls or vandals or the like, but when it appears you're doing it in order to police ''the editor in question'' something has gone very wrong. — <span style="letter-spacing:-1pt;font-family:'Rockwell', serif;">''']™'''</span> 17:53, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::And while we're here, {{ping|PamD}} in the middle of a discussion about how you appear to be reviewing every single edit that another editor makes, you make these two reverts , the latter of which has an edit summary that could easily be read as outright obnoxious. Why are you doing this? — <span style="letter-spacing:-1pt;font-family:'Rockwell', serif;">''']™'''</span> 18:08, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Honestly, Trey, by the standards of incivility seen elsewhere on this noticeboard, those diffs are kind of a nothingburger. Not ANI-worthy. Admittedly that’s setting a very low behavioural bar. | |||
| :::::::::To me, the issue is instead PamD’s overall pattern of edits and their cumulative effect, not any particular edit viewed in isolation. It’s as if she’s playing especially intense ] basketball. I suggest she just lighten up and let others handle things. | |||
| :::::::::—<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 19:33, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Those diffs are a nothingburger by any standard. PamD was sourcing previously unsourced content instead of allowing it to be completely removed. And the edit summaries are completely inoffensive. ] (]) 17:22, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Agree, the stuff in article-space has been fine. --] (]) 18:05, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Unicivil | |||
| I didn't take a dive on this. But, noting in general, having somebody focus on somebody under an ostensible "just enforcing the rules" situation which is actually a "just doing an unusually thorough enforcement of an unusually strict interpretation of the rules and concentrating on a particular editor" can be very destructive. Whether or not this is such, perhaps it would be best for PamD agree to generally step back from this editor let other wiki editors and processes handle whatever is needed with this editor. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 18:26, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I concur. When you monitor a single editor's actions and constantly badger them for mistakes, more often than not valuable good-faith editors are driven away rather than improving. In some cases this can be warranted, but PamD is leaving talk page messages for minor mistakes that really could just be solved by a ping and explanation in the edit summary. ''']''' (] | ]) 07:13, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027 | |||
| I'd like to defend PamD on this. This project is a collaborative effort. With exceptions including topic bans as well as rules violations, any edit any of us makes can be checked, reverted, folded, spindled, and mutilated by any other editor. Nobody's exempt, and we don't have designated moderators whose job it is. One reason nobody's exempt is that everybody sometimes makes mistakes, misunderstands, or writes something in a way that can be improved; the wiki way is that others fix and improve things. Another is that reasonable people can disagree, for example on whether (in a non-BLP) it's better to remove a slab of unsourced text or tag it as needing a citation. Most editors would agree that unless it's obvious trivia, best of all is to insert a source. If something is removed because it's unsourced, our advice on editing disputes is that an editor wishing to restore it needs to supply a source. That's exactly in the second edit flagged above by {{U|Trey Maturin}}. How is this edit summary explaining the action "obnoxious": {{tq|Undid revision 1157950240 by DragonofBatley (talk) - sources found, one describing objections, one confirming that it is being / has been built}}? That's the rollback edit summary plus a clear explanation. The only way I can imagine softening it up is by not naming the editor. Harassment consists of following an editor's contributions in a hostile manner, but many editors check the contributions of someone who often makes problematic edits; and leaving notes on that person's talk page to explain reverts and other changes is part of doing that constructively. That is what user talk pages are primarily for. Sadly, DragonofBatley's edits here suggest there is indeed a bit of a problem. Some very unclear prose; two denials of being a "petulant child" (I think they mean a "foolish child"); in response to {{U|Esemgee}} making the comparison {{tq|PamD is one of the most polite and patient editors I have come across, DragonofBatley is not}}, an explosion of hyperbole and what looks to me like a personal attack: {{tq|I'm not a nice editor? Only you think that ... So yeah 👍 nice try at trying to make me a vile editor by saying I'm not a nice editor. As far as I'm concerned your not a nice editor either.}}; and it took two of us asking whether they understood the problem with the change to the convert template to get from {{tq|And I always change the km to mi because we use miles.in UK}} to a concession in passing that I'm grateful {{U|DanCherek}} pointed out, because it's not at all obvious: {{tq|I welcome I made an error}}. I note that DragonofBatley has said here that they're on the spectrum. But both a certain level of competence and readiness to listen are required to work here (both have policy shortcuts that I won't impolitely link to). Someone's entitled to blank their talk page (although like PamD I was surprised was on grounds of not knowing what the query was about; the article was specified, just not linked), but not to refuse all criticism, or to demand to work only with their friends, and based on this page, it seems DragonofBatley is edging too close to at least one of those. {{U|A. B.}} and others suggest PamD should leave checking DragonofBatley's work to someone else, but who gets to spend the necessary time and get called a bad guy (or a mother-in-law if they happen to have a female user name)? DragonofBatley needs to up their game. This is the big league, publication, and we all look at and work on each other's edits. They do it themself: {{tq|others go on to remove counties for past counties like Oldham for Lancs then Mancs and editors removing sourced content for non sourced content. Like youtubers instead of authors and vice versa.}} They see PamD as "nitpicking minor edits", but some of their errors aren't minor. (Some of mine aren't either, of course.) Be more careful—Pam's right, that's the fix—and realise that reasonable people can differ on what's a "nitpick". Otherwise, I'm afraid we will indeed have a problem editor here. (PamD has never dragged DragonofBatley to a noticeboard or templated them for unconstructive editing, am I right? Really, they do appear to me to have been making great efforts to be civil and constructive.) ] (]) 03:35, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Wholeheartedly agree! DragonofBatley seems (here and user page) positively proud of rebuffing and ignoring comments on their work, but given some of the example edits this seems misplaced. There may be a problem here & I don't think it's PamD causing it. ] (]) 03:42, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm less concerned that Dragon's editing isn't perfect (or even necessarily very good) than I am with what seems to be ''prima facie'' harassment: Pam is giving the appearance of watching every edit Dragon makes, policing Dragon's talk page, taking pleasure in reverting reasonable edits with what can be read as obnoxious edit summaries, dogging Dragon's every step... and whilst this is being discussed here, ''continuing to do so'' unabashed. | |||
| ::If this was happening to me, regardless of the quality of my edits, I would get sick of it rapidly – as would most reasonable people. | |||
| ::{{tq|PamD has never dragged DragonofBatley to a noticeboard or templated them for unconstructive editing, am I right?}} is a horrible metric, by the way. We don't measure harassment by the number of templates issued or how often someone is taken to a dramaboard. We measure it by how someone is editing and interacting. By that metric, Pam is on Dragon's case ''all of the time''. That would drive me nuts and isn't fair. | |||
| ::It's not asking too much for Pam to disengage for a week or so – if Dragon's edits are as bad as are being suggested here, ''someone else'' (lots of someones else) will intervene. — <span style="letter-spacing:-1pt;font-family:'Rockwell', serif;">''']™'''</span> 12:07, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * "{{tq|Pam is on Dragon's case all of the time.}}": Just a little analysis here of all of my 2023 comments on DoB's talk page (any omissions are accidental, one bullet may include more than one comment in a thread): | |||
| :# 5 Jan: I can't remember what led me to ], but the text I posted there is some standard boiler-plate advice I offer when I notice that an article has been created at a disambiguated title with no access provided from the base title(). I also talked about church-name dab pages, having made links to some of DoB's articles. I thought we had a civilised exchange. | |||
| :# 17 Jan: Can't remember what led to ] but I'd been editing a related article and made what I thought were a couple of helpful suggestions about this one, and how to increase its readership. | |||
| :# 6 April: ] is on my watchlist: I live about 5 miles away. I noticed another , including removing the mention of the local ] which has an article, and commented. (I later found sources for much of the removed content). | |||
| :# 6 April: I had created the redirect from ] to the information on the church at ], (as it ) so noticed, and commented, when that redirect was overwritten by an article on the church which was mostly infobox and omitted all the historically interesting content, as well as having a few other problems. I then went on to copy that content, with attribution, into the new article to improve it, and found a couple more sources etc. | |||
| :# 15 April: After seeing ] I thought I offered constructive comments. | |||
| :#26 April: See above ] discussion. DoB deleted another editor's talk page post saying "No idea what that's all about": I clarified and commented. | |||
| :#29 May: ]: I saw an edit which moved a town by 9 miles, corrected it, and explained how to avoid the problem (the useful parameter "|order=flip" in the {{tl|convert}}, a template with more bells and whistles than most of us have learned to use) and, not having been scrutinising their talk page particularly carefully, I noticed ] for the first time and offered my standard boiler-plate advice about the brilliant gadget which helps one to avoid linking to dab pages, as useful information. | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441 | |||
| Genuinely trying to improve the encyclopedia by helping DoB edit better, offering constructive suggestions, and occasionally fixing errors they had left. It seems we will never agree on whether or not it is good practice to removed long-standing, uncontentious, unsourced content rather than tagging it with {{tl|cn}}. I think it damages the encyclopedia, DoB presumably sees it as helpful cleanup. ]] 15:59, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :{{tq|Genuinely trying to improve the encyclopedia by helping DoB edit better, offering constructive suggestions, and occasionally fixing errors they had left.}} And they asked you to stop in this thread. Your response was to continue to go through their edits looking for 'mistakes' and reverting things they did that you didn't like ''whilst they were here asking for help to try to get you to stop''. Please stop. Stop. Stop doing this. Please. Stop. — <span style="letter-spacing:-1pt;font-family:'Rockwell', serif;">''']™'''</span> 16:05, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Repeating 'stop' over and over accomplishes nothing except to raise the temperature of the conversation. It is clear that the OP wishes to be left alone. What is much less clear is whether the OP understands the problems with their edits. Continuing to point the accusing finger solely at PamD, which you have done in each of your comments in this thread, is not helpful. Please stop berating PamD so that the discussion may proceed in a civil, reasonable manner. ] (]) 17:34, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{reply|Trey Maturin}} I don't think your reading or characterization of the situation is accurate (eg, edit-summary as {{tq|outright obnoxious}} (!)) or helpful. May I request that you step back from this thread? ] (]) 17:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Hi PamD, apologies for repeating my point from above, but it seems to have been swamped and I think it's worth making again: Could you please agree to stop giving unsolicited and unnecessary advice to DoB, as in edits 5 and 6 on your list? Or, indeed, simply agree to leave their talk-page alone in the absence of an unusually strong reason to post there? (You should, of course, continue to make edits in article-space that improve or protect the encyclopedia.) If you would agree to that, I think it would do a lot to defuse this situation. --] (]) 18:10, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{mention|PamD}} I second what {{u|JayBeeEll|JBL}} said above. Usually it is a ''good'' practice to guide users who make good-faith errors by posting on their talkpage but in this case, since the feedback is not being appreciated, it would be advisable to keep off DragonofBatley's talkpage unless necessary. | |||
| :{{mention|DragonofBatley}} Your conduct here has been really subpar, eg in comments like . Keep in mind that we are here solely to help build an encyclopedia and user talkpages is a resource that is provided to aid that effort, in part, as a venue for other editors to provide feedback. You cannot simply label editors providing that feedback (in polite, relevant and non-templated messages) "stalkers" and "harassers", as you have done repeatedly, and hope for your edit/conduct to escape scrutiny. While I have advised PamD to stay off your talkpage, they and others are still welcome to review your edits and report any grievous issues to ANI or other relevant boards. ] (]) 18:36, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::You probably should look at how that editor responded to me before and if you think being called not a nice editor is okay not to challenge. then your not offering a fair platform to challenge that opinion. Esemgee is a horrible editor towards me and I won't change my feelings about that. If they can say one thing, I can say another. He began it and I responded to it. "Your conduct here has been really subpar, eg in comments like this one". I thinks the other editors was subpar too. I'm allowed to defend myself aren't I? ] (]) 09:48, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Contact on user page attempted | |||
| ==] == | |||
| {{archive top|result=With editors finding the case for tendentious editing to be weak, I am going to log warnings for both {{u|Khirurg}} and {{u|AlexBachmann}} against accusing other editors of tendentious nationalistic editing without providing diffs of serious misconduct. Impasses over article content should be resolved through ] or an ]. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 04:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC) }} | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795 | |||
| I would like to introduce ]. I've added some historical context in the article of ]. Namely, that ] (who was of Greek origin) was raised in Illyria in the court of ] </nowiki>] which is located in nowadays' Albania). | |||
| Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent | |||
| However, the user does not seem to like this one (WP:IDL). He says that it is irrelevant to the article </nowiki>], thought the Taulantian kingdom exactly lies in the Albanian territory. He further explains that "''there is a gap of some 23 centuries between the time of Pyrrhus and the creation of the Albanian state''". Should every page about countries on Misplaced Pages remove content that "doesn't have to do anything" with their modern country? I do not think so. It's not only that, the user keeps reverting my edits and following me (</nowiki>] </nowiki>] </nowiki>] </nowiki>] (in less than 5 hours) without opening a discussion in most of the cases, except for Pyrrhus </nowiki>]. But that wasn't on the articles page either, it was on my talkpage. I responded with ''"Stop boming my talkpage and discuss on the talks of articles"'' he responded and accused me of "I'll stop when you stop the nationalistic POV-pushing across multiple articles.". It gets even worse, he's accused me of "crude nationalistic POV-pushing" </nowiki>]. Oh man. All of that in less than one day after he was inactive for a few days. This has been going on for a while. And yes, he has already been sanctioned </nowiki>] once. | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557] (]) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Think this calls for a fierce ] slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a ] according to ], as this is just an ] and frankly, I don't see ''direct'' personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as {{tq|some diffs from the past few days}} are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| This report is about both reporting a user as well as a content dispute. -- ] (]) 21:48, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Would I be the person to provide you with that {{tq|further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions}}? I did think that it would be more than a ], since that's for {{tq|one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior}} and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern ]. ] (]) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*'''Support procedural close''' Content disputes should go to ]. | |||
| :@]: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. ''Hob should know better'', and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to ]. But I would ''caution you'' about ] and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your , , and it seems like you're having a problem handling a ] and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith. | |||
| :] (]) 21:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Furthermore it does appear that you might be ] because your attempts at ] for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. , , , , , , and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding ] and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards ]. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. ] ] 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've already explained that this report isn't only about a content dispute. ''"This noticeboard is for content disputes only"'' (WP:DRN). Similar issues have been processed here, there's no reason to close it.] (]) 22:01, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address ''unique issues'' as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. ({{tq|All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.}} ]) Thank you for your time and input. | |||
| :::Your edits adding ] to an article about a country he has nothing to do with is a textbook example of nationalistic POV editing. The fact that you cannot grasp that is doubly alarming (] issues). I gave you a discretionary sanctions warning a year ago due to the poor quality and nationalistic tone of your edits. Since then your editing has not improved one bit, so maybe it's time I reported you to the appropriate venue. ] (]) 22:44, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::] (]) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's incorrect. The kingdom was located in Albania, why shouldn't it be mentioned? There is no nationalistic POV editing. You also said that I was "trying to influence the readers that he was Illyrian" which is false. This clearly rests on WP:IDL. I've contributed a lot on this project, I am (just as you) interessted in certain topics. If that's nationalistic POV, you would be doing the same. ] (]) 22:57, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: {{tq|trying to report other editors in bad faith}}. ] (]) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No, it is you who is incorrect, and I have explained this to you many times, including the article talkpage and your own userpage. Even a cursory glance at articles such ] shows that the kingdom was almost entirely located in Greece. Pyrrhus of Epirus has absolutely nothing to do with Albania, and the fact that ] is alarming. ] (]) 23:21, 30 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{OD}} | |||
| ::::::When we're talking here, you say Ancient Epirus was almost entirely in Greece, which is false. The territory up to Dhermi and the Ceraunian Mountains was Epirote. Apart from that, we're talking about the Taulantian kingdom that was completely in Albania. And that was where Pyrrhus was raised. That's a fact. But let's let someone else decide whether it is relevant or not. ] (]) 01:34, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| @]: Jay brought something to my attention with . It looks like there is ] (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think {{!tq|hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason!}} I'm confused. This specific revision also ] about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. {{tq|Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.}} I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, ], what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, '''not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT''', in your own words. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::What is definitely a fact is that you are misusing this board to re-hash the same factually incorrect points you made in your talkpage and the article talkpage (i.e. for the ''third'' time). ], ]. ] (]) 02:42, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Again, let's let some else decide. ] (]) 12:02, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Without regard to the question of whether this information is WP:DUE in the Albania article, all history of what is now Albania is relevant to include in sections about Albanian history, although the article could do a better job of citing sources that are explicitly about the history of Albania to ensure that all the content is relevant. I don't see evidence that OP is a "nationalistic POV-pusher", that type of accusation should only be made if there is abundant evidence to support it. (] · ]) ''']''' 08:01, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:The history section of country articles is meant to provide a brief overview per ], not highlight cherry-picked details.As far as I know Julius Caesar and Augustus spent some time on the territory of what is now Albania. Shall we mention them as well? Why stop at Pyrrhus? Shall we list every single notable individual that has spent a few years in a particular country several thousands years before said country was created? Anyway, ANI is not the place for content discussions. There is a thread at the article's talkpage regarding the issue. Btw I don't recall calling anyone a "nationalistic POV-pusher". I described the ''edit'' by the OP as nationalist POV-pushing, and I stand by that. Many more examples: . ] (]) 12:59, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Khirurg, I did not expect such weak examples. I provided sources to those claims and discussed in both cases; not to mention all the cases where you did not discuss but simply revert. Good idea to add Caesars arriving in Albania. Thanks for this one. I'll add the content as soon as this nonsense is over. ] (]) 13:19, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::It's also relevant to mention that you immediately reverted my edit on Albania without even finishing this discussion and ignoring the advice that was given to you above '''again'''. ] (]) 13:26, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Once again you show that you have no understanding about Misplaced Pages procedures and policies. This noticeboard is not for content disputes. You cannot just add whatever content you like without consensus. ] (]) 14:20, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Again, you are known for "unwilling to reach a consensus" It simply is impossible to add content that you don't like. That's why we're here as you've may noticed or not. Again, let's let someone else decide. And for the third time, this report isn't only about a content dispute. Similar cases have been processed here; that can't be used as an excuse to dismiss this report. ] (]) 14:46, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::"Unwilling to reach a consensus" according to whom? A user that has come for pushing nationalistic POV and socking? My contribs show perfectly well who is "willing to reach a consensus", as yours show who is the one pushing nationalistic POV. ] (]) 20:00, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::Don't get into that consensus thing, I have provided evidence that you (in the most times) don't discuss at all. The fact that RoyalHeritageAlb has been sanctioned doesn't mean his statements are malicious. Personally, I wouldn't use that as an argument because you have already been blocked too. ] (]) 20:21, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::What? I "don't discuss at all"? Then what's all this ? Maybe you should be blocked for disrupting this noticeboard with blatantly false statements. ] (]) 21:45, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::At first, you can't ignore the evidence that I've provided. Secondly, I've said in the most times. We don't need to discuss about this more, let's let a admin take a look in our discussion and decide whether there's actual malice in our statements. ] (]) 22:03, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::You haven't provided any "evidence", in fact the only evidence there is that of quite a bit of nationalistic POV-pushing by you. You have made numerous baseless accusations and now blatantly false statements. ] (]) 23:09, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::We both know that we're not going to agree on anything. ] (]) 11:24, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::Okay, '''stop''' with accusations of nationalistic POV-pushing. Unless you have stronger evidence than presented above, this constitutes a ]. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{archive bottom}} | |||
| :It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. ] (]) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| ::look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @], you should familiarise yourself with ]. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. ] (]) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a ] slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{u|BarntToust}} You're being ] and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @], I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a '''formal warning''' or a ] slap is what needs to happen to Hob. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. ] (]) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are ] and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @], I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@], I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. for ''context'', in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. ] (]) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thanks! *curtsy* ] (]) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. ] (]) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Over the years, ] has displayed ] of the article. The edits of various editors have been reverted to "his" version of the article , ] , ] , ] . Request a solution to the same. ] <sup> ] </sup> 15:11, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? ] (]) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :According to the article's talk page, it looks like Vaikunda Raja (VR) has shepherded this article for nearly 20 years. On the talk page, Redtigerxyz how an encyclopedia article should approach the subject per ] (Jun 2022); Chronikhiles (Jul 2022): {{tq|This article is riddled with theological statements that are presented as though they are facts}}. It looks like serious attempts to fix the POV of the article started most recently in July 2022, and VR has reverted every ] rewrite by multiple editors. VR repeatedly points out that there is an article about the historical person (]) but that ''this'' article is about the "spiritual figure" and claims {{tq|Academics confuses the historical as well as the spiritual perspective over Vaikundar often.}}{{pb}}I think the mental framework that VR is using of historical/spiritual prevents them from understanding how to apply ] to the "spiritual figure" ]. VR seems to think that an article about a mythology should be wiki-voiced as if the mythology were fact. I'm not convinced that VR can approach this topic as an objective editor rather than as an adherent, and it might be more constructive if VR was limited to using its talk page to propose edits. ] ] 16:38, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? ] (]) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: I suggest you take this to the ], a more appropriate venue for this sort of issue. It will save you the time and drama of a discussion here. —<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 16:46, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::: |
:::...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| ::::Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". ]] 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::''"I believe that the issue here is not the contributions, the contributor."'' | |||
| There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' ]? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word ''bullshit'', which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills"]] seems pretty temperate. And so on. ] | ] 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| :::::: If the contributor is the issue not for his contributions, then your issue with the contributor is personal?! - ]] 06:13, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::By accusing of myself claiming ], the initiator of this section here had tactically or unconsciously diverted the core issue. | |||
| ::'''To understand the issue:''' | |||
| ::Ayya Vaikundar is a mythical figure and so the article ] is primarily based on the source of Ayyavazhi Mythology, the ] as if the Krishna article is primarily based on Mahabharata, Bagavat Gita and Bagavata Purana. That does not mean that Krishna article is (and should be) solely based on Mahabharata alone. Even though various accounts, interpretations, validations are included in the article, the main narrative of the life, events, character and teachings of Krishna is based on Mahabharata and Bagavat Gita. There are historical perspective for Krishna as well. Those are cut-shorted to one section alone; and even in that section, historical sources is intermingled with literary sources and so the factual validity or historicity is mixed up with beliefs and mythys. Not even a single statement is found in the lead section which explains the historical validity of Krishna. All sources points back directly or indirectly to some religious/literary sources. | |||
| ::Phaethon is the son of Sun God Helios. And this is as per Greek mythology. The article begins with saying that "Phaethon is the son of Helios in Greek Mythology". And the whole article is written in that context. | |||
| ::These are not odd cases. Almost all articles on religious figures/god-heads is been presented in a similar way. Likewise Ayya Vaikundar article begins with a forthright statement that this is a mythology article. This is the point I was making repetedly, and I wonder that the level of ignorance in people who couldn't figure out this simple things are unbelievable! | |||
| :: | |||
| ::Apart from that, the historical validity of Vaikundar is more than that of Krishna, Phaethon etc for many reasons. The most important among them are that his period is so recent and the impact of Vaikundar (as understood by academics and historians) are immense and vivid; it be social, religious or cultural; so much so that several social reform/renaissance movements across south India had their roots in Vaikundar's activities. | |||
| ::So numerous academic/ historical sources in the past 100 years or so had done research and published hundreds of articles/ books/thesis etc. Those sources, (since most of them are under the disciplines, History/Society/Humanity and very few under spirituality/philosophy) portrayed Vaikundar from the historical perspective alone which runs directly contradicting the religious and literary sources on which the religious beliefs/views of millions of People are based upon. Another important thing is that, the Akilamic narrative is that they are two different personalities. 1. Mudisoodum Perumal (1809-1833) and Vaikundar (1833-1851). | |||
| ::So considering these things, the Historical Vaikundar article is based on Historical perspective and it is mentioned forthright on top of the article. On the other hand the Vaikundar Article is based on mythology/beliefs and that again is mentioned forthright on the leading sentence of the article Ayya Vaikundar. I don't understand what is the confusion here. | |||
| ::'''And regarding the baseless accusations:''' | |||
| ::1. ''"Over the years, User:Vaikunda Raja has displayed ] of the article. The edits of various editors have been reverted to "his" version of the article"'' | |||
| ::::I can't understand the logic that reverting undiscussed reverts amounts to claim of ownership! Especially when it is quiet convincing that, two or more users working well aligned with an agenda, completely diminishing the value of arguments and misleading as if they are working with consensus!! | |||
| ::::see edit for example which is mentioned above. Here my revert was called as Vandalism! | |||
| ::2. ''" According to the article's talk page, it looks like Vaikunda Raja (VR) has shepherded this article for nearly 20 years. On the talk page, Redtigerxyz tried to explain how an encyclopedia article should approach the subject per WP:NPOV#Religion (Jun 2022); Chronikhiles pointed out (Jul 2022): This article is riddled with theological statements that are presented as though they are facts. It looks like serious attempts to fix the POV of the article started most recently in July 2022, and VR has reverted every WP:NPOV rewrite by multiple editors. VR repeatedly points out that there is an article about the historical person (Historical Vaikundar) but that this article is about the "spiritual figure" and claims Academics confuses the historical as well as the spiritual perspective over Vaikundar often.'' | |||
| ::''I think the mental framework that VR is using of historical/spiritual prevents them from understanding how to apply WP:NPOV to the "spiritual figure" article."'' | |||
| :::: The context shall only be understood by following the conversation ]. It was distorted and narrated in a completely different way by ], which I suspect was with a clear motive. | |||
| ::3. ''"VR seems to think that an article about a mythology should be wiki-voiced as if the mythology were fact."'' | |||
| ::::Mythology is mythology and fact is fact. Nobody is claiming anything which is mythological as factual unless it is factually validated. Otherwise, validate the factual accuracy of each events in hundreds of mythology articles in Misplaced Pages before expecting it in Vaikundar article alone. Please explain your point with reference to your context for the articles Phaethon and Krishna. | |||
| ::4.'' "I'm not convinced that VR can approach this topic as an objective editor rather than as an adherent," '' | |||
| ::::It amuses me; the validation instinct of User:Schazjmd and his/her authority on scrutinizing the objectivity or rationality of other users! | |||
| ::5.'' "and it might be more constructive if VR was limited to using its talk page to propose edits."'' | |||
| ::::Best luck and I would be more happy to see it... - ]] 06:11, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at ] where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. ] (]) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''ABOVE ALL...''' I accept that the article is in a poor shape and that it need a major clean-up. The article was written some 10-15 years back and it is a time consuming process to do a major rewrite and I am working on it. I will be doing it in month or two. And I had told this to you (User:redtigerxyz) back. Despite, I am not sure why people here are in a hurry to either block myself or reverting my edits repeatedly and initiating discussion in multiple forum simultaneously? - ]] 06:17, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - ] (]) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :This is a content dispute, and should be taken to the appropriate venue. Nevertheless, a comment: Vaikunda Raja has helpfully provided the example of ], saying "The article begins with saying that "Phaethon is the son of Helios in Greek Mythology". And the whole article is written in that context." This is incorrect. The article is written in the context of real-life, constantly relating mythological statements back to those who made them ("according to version", "in some versions", "Hyginus however attributes", "Euripides' version of the story", etc.); by contrast, the Ayya Vaikundar article presents mythological statements as wikivoice, and. intentionally or not, presents the "historical figure" as secondary and inferior to the "spiritual figure". When combined with the misleading capitalisation of numerous words and the multiple tenses used, the article's tone is certainly unacademic and possibly completely inadequate for Misplaced Pages's standards, like so many other of our India-related articles. Once this ANI is closed, I would be happy to perform a thorough copyedit of the article. ] (]) 19:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I disagree that this is purely a content dispute, given VR's rather odd post, quite a bit of which flies in the face of Misplaced Pages policy. Not to mention the haughty comments like {{tq|It amuses me; the validation instinct of User:Schazjmd and his/her authority on scrutinizing the objectivity or rationality of other users!}} or the odd response to a suggestion VR be limited to talk page comments only ({{tq|Best luck and I would be more happy to see it}}). That sounds like acceptance for a topic ban from the page, but I doubt VR meant to agree to such. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:35, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Hob Gadling failing to yield to ], apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. ] (]) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Scottywong's bullying of ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ == | |||
| {{atop|1=IBAN proposal rejected as moot by Newyorkbrad due to indef of ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ, so if you have any further comments on Scottywong, take it to ]. {{nac}} ''']] (])''' 09:51, 7 June 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
| So I noticed earlier today that MalnadachBot hasn't edited in over a month, this seemed rather unusual to me because that bot is one the main lint error fixers on the site. Looking a bit further it appears the bot's operator hasn't edited in nearly the same time period, and one of the last things they did was engage in a talk page thread with Scottywong. It appears that Scottywong has bullied ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ off the site with some grossly inappropriate comments. | |||
| :Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. ] (]) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I include some of Scottywong's comments towards ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ here for context. | |||
| *'''Propose''' serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at ]. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) ] (]) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:For context, ] is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. ] (]) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. ] (]) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Recuse{{smiley}} Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. ] (]) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. ] (]) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to ] above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. ] (]) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *As a note, Hob Gadling without comment and has not responded here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse top}} | |||
| *:Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. ] (]) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{tqb|1= | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| == Please stop with the annoying useless edits already == | |||
| Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :This comment is actually more of a personal attack then any of the diffs provided originally. Smartass, like a teenager, pissy, lalaland? That's some ageism, maybe commenting on mental health, and some silly insults. I don't think you should see any sanctions for this, but hopefully you compare your comments to the diffs. ] (]) 22:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Hello, user with non-English characters on the English Misplaced Pages. I don't even know what to call you. In my head, I just think of you as "Mr. Squiggles" because your username just looks like a bunch of squiggly lines to me. | |||
| {{collapse top|Extended discussion}} | |||
| ::IP, how'd you get here? A person who calls things {{tq|bullshit}} and generally isn't in a good mood around others, being condescending: saying that they are pissy and being a smartass is ]. Teenagers are known for angst and pissy-ness and for having lip. Not insinuating they are a teenager, just that their behavior resembles that of. As you will recall, someone, somewhere in this derailed, miles-long trainwreck of an ANI report-turned morality seminar-turned COVID-19 ] + ] debate, said that there is no policy against profanity. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::If I tell User:ExampleA that they did an "amazing fuckin' job!" with a ], that is different than calling User:ExampleB a "{{!tq|fuckin' wanker}}" because they botched a ]. Context is everything, and I get how we are all connecting through the two-dimensional medium of simple text and thus misunderstandings tend to occur, but tones like these aren't that hard to discern. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::When ] shouts "fucking A!" after a job well done, that is not the same when he tells ] that he is a "fucking psycho murderer". <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Right, and there are no egregious uncivil diffs either. So, how is Hob acting like a pissy teenager, but you aren't? Catch my drift? This is a nothing burger report, and the reporter should get a boomerang. ] (]) 00:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Hob's profanity is not amiable. It sours the collaboration with other editors. most importantly, it is undue. Mine is not undue, and is a statement of truth. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Provide a diff of something you believe is sanctionable. Your pile of personal attacks is making it unclear what you are trying to say. It's ok when you cuss, but it's bad if someone else does it? What? ] (]) 01:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Profanity has nothing to do with it. The attitude is the thing that's wrong. The word "shit" can be said in many different ways. Some good, some bad. Have you even looked through these diffs of Hob's comments that have popped up through this ANI report? I also invite you to create an account. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::So, to recap, ]: It's not ''what'' it is said that causes problems, it's '''''how''''' it is said that matters, and in what context. I call a pissy editor pissy because it's great to ]. I can use profanity to describe someone's behaviour, and if I weigh words, I can even use it when addressing someone's contributions; i.e. "This is a really fuckin' well done article, User:Example". Hob calling someone's opinions {{tq|bullshit}} is not the right thing to do. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I think you may refer to this as calling a spade a spade. When someone says we should ignore science because it has a COI with Covid-19, their opinion is bullshit. This is what you are defending. ] (]) 03:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Eh, you can say "That's ] and ] and does not constitute ] as the subject is discussed in ]". Calling a spade a spade is easy, while addressing content and user contributions in dispute should require more, IDK, poise. I can say "fucking awesome work!" to an editor about their ] and no harm can be meant by that in any feasible situation, but when addressing questionable content, it should be done with nuance, eh? You can call someone's work shit whose work ''isn't'' shit, but you pretty much can't call someone's work "fucking amazing" whose work isn't amazing, as calling work "fucking amazing" provides pretty much no point of contention, unless you were just bullshitting them for no reason or trying to be nice about a novice's contributions that in terms of quality, reflect their inexperience. | |||
| :::::::::This entire ANI report has derailed into pretty much every unrelated topic save debate over what ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 03:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I'm not worried about contexts when "strong language" is ok, and you can stop giving needless examples. I don't believe anything that violates our guidelines on civility took place at all in the diffs originally provided. Hob was reasonable in tone, and sometimes people are exasperated by nonsense. Being annoyed but mostly polite isn't actually against the rules. You will need better diffs to change my mind. ] (]) 06:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::The COI pertains only to a few authors in particular with a personal stake in the outcome of the investigation. For example, the article uses several sources co-authored by Dr. Zhengliang Shi who {{tq|herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest}}<ref> Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/</ref> This is a secondary peer-reviewed article, and several editors who call LL fringe stated it is RS.<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z</ref><ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400</ref> ] (]) 08:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | |||
| It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing ] misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as ], and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as ]. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. ]]<sup>]</sup> 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| You might remember me as the editor that has loudly complained about how annoying and useless I find your bot that fixes lint errors. I even started an RFC to determine consensus on whether your bot is in violation of ]. Sadly, there wasn't consensus, so I decided to crawl back into my hole and shut up. I went through the trouble of hiding your bot's edits from my watchlist, in the hopes that I could minimize the annoyance caused by your fixing of trivial cosmetic non-issues on ancient pages that no human will likely ever view again for the remainder of human civilization as we know it. But today I opened my watchlist, and I find more lint error edits on some of my ancient user talk page archives. How is that possible if I've already hidden your bot's edits? Well, it appears that now you're making lint error edits from your main account, not your bot account. And you're not flagging them as bot edits anymore. | |||
| :Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. ] (]) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| :*I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) {{tq|bullshit}} to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that ''that'' was what led Lardlewarmers to try and , a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward ] situation. --] (]) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Why are you doing this? And why did you choose my user talk page archives as the target of your annoying edits? Are you trying to annoy me on purpose? | |||
| :*:There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "]" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to ] and stop treating ]. ] (]) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*:The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a ''chronic'' and ''ongoing'' habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (]) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. ] (]) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed ''I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type''. As the Alien above said, you '''{{tq|Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning.}}''' now ]. ] ] 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to ], the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the ] contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ], as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the ''content'', not attacking the person (]). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.] (]) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::For the record I do ''agree with you'' that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been ] you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing ] or ], rather we depend on ] and ] to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to {{tq|steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person}}. However, that is not what I read in that . Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! ] ] 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (]) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.] (]) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. ] ] 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a {{tq|lesser offense}}. ] (]) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| If these edits are automated, it's likely that they are in violation of ]. I would ask that you stop immediately, or explain why you're making bot edits from your main account. ] 20:15, 21 April 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
| :Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. ] (]) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of ''this specific'' pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. ] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{tqb|1=The {{tl|nobots}} template was added to those pages specifically to prevent '''''you (and only you)''''' from editing those pages any further. And despite our history, and despite noticing the {{tl|nobots}} template on the pages, and despite noticing the timing with which the {{tl|nobots}} template was added directly after your bot ravaged my talk page archive, your reaction to seeing that your bot correctly skipped those pages is to edit them manually from your main account instead? Seriously? I'm really starting to suspect that there is a potential ] problem here, between your decision-making in this situation, to your bot's historical performance record, to your username that uses non-English characters, to the hideous font on your user page, to the annoying rainbow border on your user pages, etc., etc., etc. | |||
| :::What you are describing is a different idea: ]. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus. {{tq|the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ]}} {{tq|The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.}}(]) ] (]) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. ] (]) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I would propose a third option for dealing with this situation: in the future, please do not edit ''any'' page in my userspace from ''any'' of your accounts for ''any'' reason, with the exception of my user talk page if you wish to send me a message. I don't know how I can make it any clearer than that. ] 05:31, 24 April 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
| :::::Beyond what @] said, ''for all parties'', it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil ]. ] ] 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Indeed. ] (]) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should ''not'' be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. ] (]) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from ] or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - ] (]) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. ] (]) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I am in the diffs. | |||
| :::::I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - ] (]) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. ] (]) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above: {{tq|Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.}}] ] (]) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. ] (]) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. ] (]) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse top|title=Extended discussion}} | |||
| :::::How ironic that you would call out canvass, when you haven't contributed to this discussion previously, nor have you contributed to any prior notice board. See ], also please see ] if you logged out just to make {{tq|problematic edits}} here.... ] ] 05:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times, what are you talking about? IPs are only assigned for a few hours to weeks at a time usually. ] (]) 05:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@]: Okay let me say it another way... | |||
| :::::::* never in this history of this subject has an IP editor contributed. | |||
| :::::::* since January 1, ALL of the IP's who have contributed to ANI aside from your are blocked or had their contribution reverted. | |||
| :::::::* in the last 50,000 edits to this notice board, not a single anon has commented more than 34 times and that user was in Romania, whereas your IP shows US/Mobile, and they are currently blocked. Followed up an IPv6 with 30 edits, last participated in ANI back in May. Followed by a handful from the UK and other countries. The first one who is US based that was mobile has less than 12 edits, not hundreds. | |||
| :::::::* when you choose to edit anonymously (which is your privilege) you accept the reality that people will question your constructiveness because of a lack of established history. | |||
| :::::::But beyond all of that, aren't you simply deflecting from the question brought up? Perhaps @] has been lurking anonymously. As they have logged at least 31 edits to ANI alone . ] ] 05:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::There's a lot of strawmen there to knock down if I cared to derail this conversation, but I'm curious what question you think I'm deflecting? Your assumptions of bad faith are expected, but disappointing. ] (]) 06:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::What I claim you are deflecting KETTLE: Somehow you feel like you can call out someone who hasn’t contributed previously as canvassed, which is a ''serious allegation'', yet that is exactly what your user account history appears reflect. When challenged, you claimed to have edited hundreds of time, which was rebutted with facts, you resorted to allegations. Interestingly they very closely mirror only one other person who liberally throws around terms like strawman and bad faith. And really only one person at ANI has ever held this view so strongly they would plainly say bad faith was “expected” from me . If your not that person, then my query is how did you get involved in this conversation, and when exactly do you proffer that you last edited on here as an IP constructively? ''However, '''if''' you are indeed that person, let me warn you, such activity is considered sock puppetry.'' (Of course editing while accidentally logged out is a human mistake. But persisting and pretending otherwise, is not.) ] ] 07:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Don't know what this thread is about, but point 2 and 3 seem wrong - none of my IPs have been blocked, and I am an anon that has, in the to this board I made 38 of them (all edits by IPs starting with 2804:F14), let alone in the last 50 thousand edits. | |||
| ::::::::Maybe I'm misunderstanding your claims. – ] (]) (]) 06:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I think my detail for you was accidentally edited out. You would be an IPv6 from a different country, so unless this IP user is claiming they have rotating IPs hourly because they’re using an international VPN connecting via various countries, I find their claim that they just stumbled upon this conversation dubious at best. ] ] 06:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Also in case you were not aware, while mobile IP addresses can and do change, they still remain with that mobile carrier. So while your ip address will change, who all of those addresses are registered to will not. What I mean is that will your current IP goes back to a US based cell network, you’re not going to get a new IP address that is registered in Japan or even one in the US that is through a completely different network (a few technical exceptions exist, but they’re nevertheless evident). Same with home internet as well. And of course, most work addresses are persistent. All that to say, a claim of “my ip address changes” does not mean that a persona cannot reasonably determine if you’ve contributed to ANI from the a network. ] ] 07:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::When did I say I stumbled upon this thread? Provide the diff. You are putting words in my mouth and casting aspersions. I said my IP changes as a response to you saying I was a new editor. You are creating an elaborate narrative and getting strangely defensive. ] (]) 07:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I will gladly provide the answe after you answer the two questions I have previously asked to you. First was about KETTLE, and the second asked you to substantiate your claim of {{tq|I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times}} by providing your last contrustive ip edit to this notice board. ] ] 07:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Please read ]. I'm not going to link all of my comments across IPs here for you. If you really believe I was canvassed, you need some diffs, or maybe you should strike your aspersions. ] (]) 07:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::All I can do is laugh at your replies. More KETTLE behavior. You claim don’t have to proof anything per SATISFY, yet in the same breath you demand such of others. More ad hominem, deflection. Zero actual replies. ] ] 08:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::What are you talking about? I asked one question, got one answer and it was done. It was you who started a long thread full of bad faith assumptions and no diffs. Provide diffs, or kindly stop bludgeoning. ] (]) 08:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{collapse bottom}} | {{collapse bottom}} | ||
| {{reflist}} | |||
| How on earth is this an appropriate manner for an administrator to be interacting with another user? Even more concerningly every single policy reference Scottywong gives does not support what they claim it does. | |||
| ===Send to AE?=== | |||
| * How is it appropriate for an administrator to be engaging in childish, purile name calling and refering to other editors with names like {{tqi|Mr. Squiggles}} or {{tqi| user with non-English characters on the English Misplaced Pages}}. | |||
| * How on earth is "you have a username in a script other than Latin" evidence of a CIR issue? Policy explicitly allows for non-Latin usernames (]) and this editor is using their real name. Frankly this just comes across as racist - "your name is foreign so you're incompetent" is a grossly inappropriate thing to insinuate. | |||
| * How on earth are three edits made over the course of an hour evidence of a meatbot violation? The edits were not being made at a rapid pace, were not made with an automated tool and the editor has repeatedly gained consensus for making them, including in an RFC that Scottywong started. | |||
| * Why was Scottywong playing stupid, passive aggressive games with the nobots template instead of just ''asking'' the editor not to edit their archives. | |||
| ** Why is Scottywong claiming that the fact that ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ didn't pick up on the fact that they were using the nobots template as passive aggressive nonsense as evidence of a CIR issue? | |||
| * How is "you have a border on your userpage" evidence of a CIR issue? What part of policy would support blocking someone because they added a decorative border to their userpage? | |||
| * How is "I don't like the font on your userpage" evidence of a CIR issue? | |||
| * What on earth are they referring to when they say {{tqi|your bot's historical performance record}} is evidence of a CIR issue? The performance record that lead to MalnadachBot being given the go ahead to fix any lint error on the site? | |||
| Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to ] since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. ] (]) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Scottywong's messages seem completely out of line. The name calling and tone are extremely inappropriate, especially coming from an administrator, a position that requires that editors behave in a respectful, civil manner (]). It is deeply concerning that Scottywong doesn't seem to have read or understood any of the policies they quote, and misuses them in grossly inappropriate ways (how is it acceptable to threaten to CIR block a user for having a non-Latin name?). And how on earth is that first message a reasonable reaction to an editor making two edits in your userspace? ] (]) 19:07, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| : {{tqi|Mr. Squiggles}} or {{tqi| user with non-English characters on the English Misplaced Pages}} alone would make me question an admin's temperament to continue to be an admin. The fact that Malnadach's name is on his user page makes this even worse. Looking at Malnadach's page and contribtions, it seems he is one of the few people who has deep knowledge of html and does linting on this site. Their work makes converts what would be gibberish for those using screen readers and other alternative browsing methods into a usable site. <small style="background:#ccc;border:#000 1px solid;padding:0 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap;">] | ]</small> 19:28, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'll admit that I was frustrated with the behavior of ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ, and my messages to them expressed that frustration in a way that was admittedly a bit blunt. And for that bluntness, I apologize. The issue in question has a long history that I won't take the time to go into here, suffice it to say it wasn't just this single isolated incident that frustrated me. Contrary to the Oxford IP's claim, I never resorted to name-calling or personal attacks of any kind. Referring to the user as "Mr. Squiggles" or "user with non-English characters on the English Misplaced Pages" were not intended as name-calling or insulting in any way, but instead were simply my attempts to come up with a pronounceable moniker that I could use to refer to this editor, and a way to highlight the difficulties in both communication and relationship-building posed by choosing a username with non-English characters on a site that is dedicated to generating and maintaining English language content exclusively. Jumping to the conclusion that my messages triggered the user to stop editing is clearly not supported by any evidence, as they continued editing for several weeks after the conversation, and it has only been about 3 weeks since their last edit. People take wikibreaks. In my opinion, there was no reason to bring this conversation to the drama board. I won't be monitoring this thread, so please send a message to my talk page if there is anything else that urgently requires a response from me. ] 20:54, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Ugh. It's increasingly hard to live with people like this. I guess the best I can come up with is that I will block you from editing if you do this kind of xenophobic mocking again. It seems silly to resort to threats, but you've made it clear you aren't interested in feedback. ] (]) 21:19, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I've lost confidence in ScottyWong's judgement and temperament to be an admin. | |||
| ::::Also, I note that ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ has 94,000+ edits on this Misplaced Pages plus more on others. In all this time, nobody's seen a need to him for his user name, his user page or anything else. Perhaps he should be the admin. | |||
| ::::--<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 21:36, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If we had a working community desysop protocol, this manner of belittling another user would be worth using it over. Seriously, SUL has been a thing for well over a decade. ] (]) 22:34, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{tqi|on a site that is dedicated to generating and maintaining English language content exclusively}}. The Wikimedia foundation runs projects covering 320 languages and ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ contributes to projects in multiple other languages. Why should they have to use an English/Latin name? ] (]) 22:27, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::If you contribute to multiple language wikis, there is no requirement that your username must be the same on all wikis. No one ''has to'' have an English/Latin name on the English Misplaced Pages, but it certainly facilitates communication to do so. If I can't pronounce your name, how will I remember it? If my keyboard doesn't support typing your name, how will I navigate to your user talk page? These aren't just issues that apply to me, they apply to all non-Kannada speakers on the English Misplaced Pages, which is likely more than 99.99% of en-wiki editors. Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems to me that it's counterintuitive to create an account on the Japanese Misplaced Pages and choose a username comprised of Sanskrit characters. Is it allowed? Of course. Is it a good idea? In my opinion, no. This is not an inherently xenophobic viewpoint; if it is, then I guess xenophobia is enshrined in ]. Nowhere have I ever expressed hatred or negative feelings towards Kannada language speakers, people of Indian descent, or non-native-English speakers in general; precisely because I harbor no hatred or negative feelings for such people (and I'm confident that a deep look through my 16+ years of contributions here will not show any pattern of xenophobic behavior). Hell, even my wife is a non-native-English speaker, and her native language uses non-English characters. While I can see how a superficial glance at my comments might cause someone to believe they come from a place of racism or xenophobia, that is a gross misinterpretation of my intent. My comments were simply about common-sense communication efficiency. So I agree with Floquenbeam that threatening to block me ''is'' rather silly in this case. The conversation ended over a month ago, bringing it here now just feeds the drama machine. Again, I fully admit that I was frustrated when I wrote those messages (regardless of whether or not you agree with the reasons for my frustration), and my tone was borderline rude, and again, I apologize for that tone. The tone was likely a bit of an overreaction in hindsight, as was the creation of this ANI thread and the melodramatic threats to block me. It may be instructive to re-read the same policy that the Oxford IP noted above (]), which reminds us that {{xt|"Occasional mistakes are entirely compatible with adminship; administrators are not expected to be perfect."}} I'm admitting my mistake here, while attempting to explain the rationale behind my comments for the benefit of those that have misinterpreted them. If that doesn't do it for you, or if you believe you've found a pattern of xenophobic behavior in my editing history, then by all means, block me and/or ship me off to Arbcom immediately. Otherwise, there isn't much more to say. ] 23:30, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Suggestion: for non-Latin names, I just copy and paste. For example, ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ. As for how to pronounce a word like that, I just don’t worry about sounding it out since I read silently. | |||
| :::::English is definitely easier for me but this is a polyglot community. —<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 01:27, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::And if you really need to know? just throw google translate at it, which has a pronunciation feature. In this case, I got . Hi Malnadach! --] (]) 18:26, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Or, if you don't want to use google translate, ask them! ] (]) 19:00, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Obviously the comments are unacceptable, but it's always been amusing to me how upset some people get about fixing LINT errors. If the edits are, seriously, "trivial cosmetic non-issues," then ''why get so worked up''? <span style="color:green">](he/him)<sup>]</sup></span> 21:34, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Because of . It took us more than a year of begging to get this botop to even attempt to combine edits like (I'm not exaggerating here) fixing <nowiki><font color="blue"></nowiki> and <nowiki><font color="purple"></nowiki>. Doesn't excuse making up belittling nicknames for a user one's in conflict with, but the bad blood here is ''fully'' justified. —] 20:06, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::I mean, I've had my own technical disagreements with Malnadach (which IMO we've resolved through collaboration) but this is far beyond that. I don't think it matters if the bad blood is justified or not, it's a recurring pattern that Scottywong ends up with grudges and then goes past the line of what is acceptable (]). ] (]) 23:13, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :And Malnadach Konkno gives their transliterated name ]. <nowiki><facepalm></nowiki>. ] (]) 22:58, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I would like it if people used pronounceable latin-character handles on here too. I'd also like it if communism worked in real life rather than just on paper and that homophobes had their pubic hair permanently itch. I'm not getting any of that in reality and I'm aware that my preferences in this regard are ludicrous, which is why I've never asked anyone to abide by them, on here or anywhere else. | |||
| :Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories". | |||
| :But especially not on an international worldwide project like Misplaced Pages, for very obvious reasons. WTF, Scotty? | |||
| :That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - ] (]) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The IP made no such claim? - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - ] (]) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. ] (]) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Also, to make such a weird posting to someone and when challenged in the place designated for such challenges to announce {{tq|I won't be monitoring this thread, so please send a message to my talk page if there is anything else that urgently requires a response from me}} is conduct unbecoming. If that truly is your only response, then your resignation will be accepted ]. — <span style="letter-spacing:-1pt;font-family:'Rockwell', serif;">''']™'''</span> 23:14, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why ] is policy. | |||
| :I just came across this thread while stalking ANI cause I was completely bored. I certainly agree that Scottywong's behavior here is absolutely unacceptable for an administrator and just plain rude, incivil and xenophobic. And what the heck does disliking another person's user page have to deal with ]? I know people might not like others' userpage designs but Scottywong's comments were just plain incivil. -- ] ] ] 00:02, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. ]. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Referring to someone with a non-latin script username as "Mr. squiggles" is grossly unbecoming for an admin. ScottyWong should do the dignified thing at this point and resign, and if he does not an ArbCom case should be considered. ] (]) 01:27, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. ] (]) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Good freaking grief. It's "hard" to use "ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ" as opposed to some insulting nickname? Hardly. ''I just cut-and-pasted it.'' Elapsed time: two-thirds of a second, or about a tenth as long as it took me to type this sentence. That's poor judgment for someone we trust to be an admin, and ScottyWong compounded it with that I'm-not-going-to-bother-with-this-thread response, something we'd consider misguided at best (and childish at worst) coming from a newbie with a hundred edits. Nor am I mollified by his pseudo-apology, somewhat negated by his if-you-don't-like-it-go-screw ending. "I had a bad day, I said some dumb things, I'm very sorry I did, I won't do it again. The end." Was something of the sort so very difficult to say? ] 01:39, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I '''second''' to motion to bring this to ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Or, for that matter, click on the name/userpage-link, and copy/paste the Romanization (Malnadach Konkno) from there. (I'm sweating from the effort, I tell you!) – ] <sup>]</sup> 04:22, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * Pretty appalling communication, especially from an administrator, compounded further here by the "admittedly a bit blunt" handwave. At minimum, a blunt acceptance that this language is unacceptable and a similarly blunt (uncaveated) apology to ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ would be in order. ] (]) 02:30, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * Scottywong may think that {{tq|In my opinion, there was no reason to bring this conversation to the drama board}}, but literally everyone (12 editors) who has commented believes he was wrong, and I agree with them. The notion that {{tq|your username that uses non-English characters, to the hideous font on your user page, to the annoying rainbow border on your user pages,}} is evidence of ] is nonsense, and reflects poorly on Scottywong's judgment and temperament as an admin. A better apology is warranted. ''']] (])''' 05:04, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Scottywong should be ashamed. To refer to a constructive editor like ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ as "Mr. Squiggles" is very disrespectful, and definitely goes against ]. I'm not impressed in the slightest with his half-assed apology either. He should resign to save ArbCom some time. ''''']''''' <sup>(] / ])</sup> 06:26, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I am not yet prepared to call for Scottywong's resignation, but to say that I am appalled and deeply disappointed with this behavior is an understatement. Misplaced Pages and Wikimedia Foundation projects operate in hundreds of languages and with many different scripts. Editors are free to move from project to project as they see fit, especially if their preferred work is gnoming. An administrator berating an editor with such vitriolic contempt is never acceptable, but when the insults focus on irrelevant trivialities like signature scripts, talk page borders and fonts, that is beyond the pale. There is no policy, guideline or community consensus forbidding fixing lint errors. That's not how I choose to spend my editing time, but Scottywong, it is utterly unacceptable for you to go into an enraged full-blown attack mode against an editor who has chosen to work on ''fixing errors''. Your response, in my view, has been inadequate to date, and I encourage you to engage in some serious self-relection, and then offer a more appropriate response to the community's concerns. ] (]) 08:03, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * The original comment wasn't great, especially from an admin. But ScottyWong's 2 posts here are hard to read without cringing. A simple I'm sorry, frustration got the better of me etc would have fixed it. ] (]) 12:03, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *There has just been an impersonation attempt against scottywong ]. ] (]) 13:01, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| **Not surprised, trolls will do anything to mislead others. ] (]) 13:04, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *The arrogance displayed in the comments that led to this thread and in the responses here are well below the standards we have for an administrator. The misreading of ]'s comment is amusing, the "confession" that their tone was "borderline rude" is revealing. ] (]) 13:08, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I have my reservations about Malnadach's editing style, and editing the userspace of an editor you've disagreed with (when they've explicitly prohibited your bot from doing so) is poor form, but Scotty's comments are disgraceful. I'm appalled that an admin would think that's an appropriate way to communicate and then just brush it off as being "too blunt". The berating tone I could just about look past with the half-arsed apology as long as there was an undertaking to bring issues to this board in future, but the borderline racism/xenophobia needs to be addressed. ] | ] 13:39, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *I don't believe this is a one-off thing from ScottyWong, at least not the contention against Malnadach. This goes back for a while. ScottyWong has had problems with MalnadachBot since at least January 2022, when he proposed its removal as an active bot, per the ] policy. Most of his arguments were reasoned and in-depth, but certain comments may inform his current frustration (apologies for not giving diffs, the didn't retain them): | |||
| **{{tq|If this bot operator claims that he is not capable of fixing all the errors on a page in a single edit, or that his code is so inefficient that it produces "false positives" and requires him to manually supervise every edit, then I think we should find a different bot operator.}} | |||
| **{{tq|I realize I'm probably being annoying by continuing to complain about this bot operator and the tasks he's carrying out, but it really is supremely annoying to me.}} | |||
| **{{tq|The vast majority of this bot's work is not worth the disruption it's causing to the project.}} | |||
| :Of course, everyone has the right to be frustrated, and the point of bringing this up is not to say don't ever be upset about things. Rather this is to provide context as to how this confrontation built up to begin with. Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 13:19, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * Could we close this thread now? ] (]) 13:30, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:With what action taken against whom? Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 13:37, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::I don't think any action is needed. Everyone have learned something from the thread, so no need to prolong it further. ] (]) 13:39, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I disagree strongly. The admin behaviour decribed here is appalling, as is the "digging in" response we've had. I think we need to see some genuine reflection along the lines Cullen328 suggests, or I think further action is needed (by the community or by ArbCom). No way should this just be closed at this point. (And, I mean no offence ], but I think you've misjudged it badly.) ] (]) 13:51, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::As much as it might be desirable to avoid building a mountain out of a molehill, closing this now would give the impression that a long-time admin can ] of uncivil behavior. That isn't the message we really want to send around here. Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 13:53, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I also don't think it should be closed, at least while Scottywong is sticking their head in the sand, refusing to engage with this conversation and not admitting that their actions were not acceptable. I'm not calling for a desysop here, unless there is a complete and utter lack of awareness and actions (which while they refuse to engage is heading that direction.) I think Scottywong needs to reengage with this conversation and read the room. ] ] 13:58, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::My question here is that is it really worth it to keep the ANI thread open though? Closing the thread does not mean "ScottyWong has a free pass on his behavior", rather it is giving time for everyone to think about the issue. I don't think that bashing on people's mistakes and then making use of their angry temperament (OooOoH they don't sorry about their bad bad behavior), accusing them of being incompetent and then ban them is helpful. If you want to sanction ScottyWong, make a separate thread about that. Otherwise, it's helpful for all of us to drop the stick and let ScottyWong take time to learn the lesson here. ] (]) 15:01, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Yes, I'm aware that he is an administrator, but administrator are human too. Humans do make mistakes, lots of it. ] (]) 15:07, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::And if a person in a position of trust continues to make more than an acceptable number of mistakes, what should we do then? ] (]) 16:19, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::Take to ArbCom or make another thread. ] (]) 02:35, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::Another thread? That's what this is, after previous ones! ] (]) 11:32, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *As difficult as it is to express contrition amongst the uproar of criticism here, and while I feel that I've already apologized ''twice'' in my comments above, it seems that my words aren't being interpreted as genuine, so I'd like to try one last time to clear things up: I'd like to formally retract the messages I posted a month ago on ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ's user talk page. Those messages were written while I was in a frustrated state, and I said some things I shouldn't have. Particularly, the "Mr. Squiggles" comment about this user's non-English username, while not intended to be insulting, belittling, or xenophobic; was still insensitive and an unnecessary addition to the primary topic I wanted to discuss with the user. Therefore, again, I apologize to ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ for the rude comments. I would post this apology on the user's talk page, but they've asked me to refrain from posting on their user talk page, and I've always intended to respect that request. If anyone else feels the need to link to or copy/paste this apology to the user's talk page, I'd be ok with that. ] 14:07, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Well, those half-arsed apologies above for being "a bit blunt" didn't come close, especially coupled with your digging-in on the username issue. And, I know it's not nice to be exposed in public like this. Now, this apology is a lot better, and a good start. But there's a few things that still trouble me. Firstly, one specific - I'd like to hear you fully accept that it's entirely acceptable for users to have usernames in any script that's allowed by policy on this multi-national project. More generally, you've had angry episodes like this in the past, and it's just not acceptable for the community to have such a hair-trigger potential anger response from an admin hanging over our heads. In between, you do some fine work, and you've made some great contributions - and I want to keep that. But we just can't have any more of these episodes. So, do you have any ideas of how you might try to manage your anger in the future? I do hope so, because I really do think we need to see some serious long-term reflection here. And sorry if any of this comes across as patronising. ] (]) 14:36, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::You're not helping the situation. Don't try to force an apology. It's better to respect a person's pride and let it be. ] (]) 15:03, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Good point. If there was a simple way to de-sysop Scotty, it would be worth pursuing. But there isn’t. So we either go to ArbCom or live with Scotty. Either approach has a cost to the community in terms of time and tension. | |||
| *:::If we’re going to live with Scotty as an admin, I think we’ve collectively made our point here. | |||
| *:::if we’re not, then take it to ArbCom. Further discussion in this venue just degrades the community zeitgeist. —<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 15:12, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::], Again, I think you are misreading this badly, and you have completely failed to understand my points. I am not trying to force an apology - I never would, because a forced apology is not an apology at all. But we absolutely should not "respect a person's pride and let it be" in a case like this. If we have serious reservations about someone's aptitude for a role, how can you even think that's a remotely acceptable approach? The community has a concern with an admin's attitude, and you think we should priortise the admin's pride? I'm almost speechless. ] (]) 15:39, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:The reservations I'm seeing here—and one that I share—is that you haven't shown an understanding of why this is a problem. At the top of the post, you seemed to indicate that this was a trivial or harmless matter, and that you thought that this was within acceptable limits of admin conduct. It's this dismissiveness that brought it from an unfortunate mistake to a question of whether you understand the issue. It was only after a strong negative response and threats of desysopping that you gave the issue any attention. Whether this is the case or not, it may give the impression to the community that you're just "going through the motions" of expressing remorse without actually taking into consideration why messages like this are unhelpful in a collaborative environment, let alone from an admin. There are venues for solving disputes with editors like this. Going to their talk page and calling them incompetent (for any reason, let alone for having a foreign username or a customized userpage) is not one of those venues, and we should be able to take it for granted that admins know this. ] <small>(])</small> 15:20, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::{{tq|It was only after a strong negative response and threats of desysopping that you gave the issue any attention}} As much as I believe this demanded a response, you can't move the goalposts and insinuate that a now-given apology doesn't matter because it wasn't given prior to all of the criticism. That's unfair and you need to give someone a chance to properly atone and reflect on their own actions. If that's unacceptable, then {{noping|A. B.}} is right that there's really no choice but to close this down and make an ArbCom request. Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 15:51, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Yep, I mostly agree with ] here. We can't demand that someone respond to feedback, and then condemn them for not responding before we made the demand. We really should allow time for cooling off and thinking - the proper response should not be judged on how quickly it was or was not made, but on how sincere it is in the cold light of time. Saying that, I don't think we're at "ArbCom or nothing" yet. ] (]) 16:05, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::The gist of my comment is this: "your ] doubled down on the more problematic behavior, and you recanted that after the non-apology was heavily criticized, but you still haven't shown an understanding of ''why'' it's an issue, which is what we actually wanted." ] <small>(])</small> 16:27, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::{{U|Boing! said Zebedee}}, "I won't be monitoring this thread, so please send a message to my talk page if there is anything else that urgently requires a response from me"--like this isn't important. *sigh* ] (]) 01:46, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * I suspect I would be indeffed without a conversation if I called another editor Mr Squiggles because of their name. Do admins get like 3 free racisms before other admins act? ] (]) 15:56, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *So I've refrained from commenting since this morning hoping Scotty would come back with a grovelling sincere apology .... Indeed their latest apology is sincere however in that apology they state "{{xt|Particularly, the "Mr. Squiggles" comment about this user's non-English username, while not intended to be insulting, belittling, or xenophobic; was still insensitive and an unnecessary}}" which to me is utter bs. | |||
| :You don't take the mick out of someone's name unless you're intentionally trying to be insulting, belittling, or xenophobic ? (Of course friends can have a laugh over each others names but these 2 aren't friends nor quite clearly was it intended as a joke). Maybe I'm reading it wrong but their apology also reads like they're sorry they got caught out not sorry for what was said but again maybe I've read it wrong. | |||
| :Either way Scotty should resign or this should be sent to Arbcom, Not that I ever would but if I made such a comment like Scottys I would expect a very long block for it. –]<sup>]</sup> 16:25, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Scotty's comments were stupid, and so was his "I'm not monitoring this thread" (ANI flu?) And then non-apologies, and then an apology sandwiched with sniping at {{tq|the uproar of criticism here}} (so criticizing an admin for calling a constructive editor "Mr. Squiggles" is uncalled for, but said admin's comments aren't?) I say give him one more chance at an apology that addresses the inappropriateness of his comments ''and'' acknowledges why the {{tqq|uproar}}, and otherwise take it to ArbCom for a desysopping. ] (] • ]) 03:52, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I've also noticed Malnadach's and their bot's lack of editing and wondered why that was. If it really is because of Scotty's comments that is not only sad but a loss to the project. Scotty has for a while now tried to stop or block Malnadach's bot in everyway possible and when after each one failed, tried from a different angle. That lead to childishly reverting edits that fixed lint issues on their talk page. Even if Scotty's admin isn't taken away, they should at minimum be banned from anything Lint related as they've clearly shown this issue is too much for them. And yes, that also includes no reverting Lint fixes. ] (]) 08:15, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Although Malnadach's departure from the project is definitely coincident with Scotty's abusive message, it's hard for me to ] with any firm confidence. There could also have been health-related or work-related reasons involved behind the scenes which we wouldn't know about. Certainly it's a ''noteworthy'' coincidence and it would probably meet the ] standard if brought before a judge, but it's not proof. This is notwithstanding the remainder of the content in your message which I feel is absolutely correct. Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 12:30, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Scotty should be ashamed of his comments and actions, and his insincere apologies only make things worse. He also doesn't seem to recognise exactly why this is an issue. Scotty should resign as an admin lest he face an ArbCom case. Frankly if this wasn't a tenured admin I think the punishments for making such comments would have been far more severe. ''']''' (] | ]) 09:30, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * These comments are, frankly, absolutely disgusting and entirely unbecoming of ''any'' editor, let alone an admin - regardless of your opinions on linting fixes (in my opinion they're fairly useful but still), this kind of attitude and behaviour is deeply offensive and concerning. ] ] 13:51, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Just a question: can ADMINs be blocked indef? Cause Scotty needs to be. | |||
| :I'm 100% not an expert with Misplaced Pages policy, but I've seen people be banned for less. ] (]) 20:29, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, but in practice an admin wouldn't get blocked indefinitely unless they're community or arbcom-banned. ] (] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 20:31, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Clearly the community is not happy with Scotty's comments or his string of apologies. No further point is served by the continued pile-on of angry rebukes. Either propose a sanction below or take it to ArbCom. This venue does not exist for the purpose of letting y'all get in your free shots at this week's latest target, no matter how guilty they are. It's time to move this forward with an aim toward a constructive resolution. ] (]) 21:02, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Scotty having (as multiple people indicated) lost the trust an admin/sysop is expected to keep, hia resignation or removal as sysop would seem an obvious step. Unfortunately the "removal" process appears to have become "broken" (as also indicated here). I don't know what it would take to fix that, but the idea that admins/sysops can go bad without anyone being able to take that bit away strikes me as frightening. – ] <sup>]</sup> 02:22, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::How is the removal of adminship "broken"? Not one editor in this thread who thinks Scottywong should not be an admin has filed an arbitration request at the time of my comment. No one has even tried to remove his sysop bit. ] (]) 03:32, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I suspect many editors would like to see a case request filed, but ''really'' don't want to be the one to do it. — ] [] '''·''' ]] 04:05, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::That's it precisely. ArbCom is a grueling, demanding process that opens people up to insane levels of speculation & scrutiny. So people don't want to go there unless the problem is absolutely intractable, or else they have seriously damning evidence. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:51, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Does Scottywong have a history of these sorts of comments, or is this a one-off? ] (]) 04:10, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:There's ] about ] and ], and ]. So, kinda? Other editors may have more examples.{{pb}}I like to believe that if an editor whose million-edit bot I found annoying and useless, which I had tried multiple times to get consensus to shut down, and which I specifically ignored by name on my watchlist and tagged my talkpage archives to skip, had decided to edit those talkpage archives with their main account, I would at least have deleted that first paragraph that comes off as super racist, and not called their competence into question over their userpage aesthetics, but I would imagine myself feeling deliberately provoked (and probably would passive-aggressively revert my talkpage archives to their prior, lint error generating state).{{pb}}Scotty has said some dumb and mean things, and doesn't appear to grasp why people are so upset about them, but I don't believe everyone here grasps why he was so upset in the first place. I don't believe ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ ''was'' deliberately baiting Scotty, but given their history the choice to edit Scotty's talkpage archives was certainly an audacious one, and I am curious as to why he felt it necessary.{{pb}}Not excusing Scotty's comments or his evident inability to realize that unintentionally racist still counts as racist, but ignoring the context and history here doesn't seem like the route to the right outcome. Kindly, ] (]) 07:24, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{cot|Off-topic discussion}} | |||
| *'Wong' is not a common English surname. Scotty should be made to change his name to 'ScottyKing'. ] 12:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:There's certainly a lot to be said about how reprehensible Scotty's behavior is, but ] go further down this path with sort of tit-for-tat ad hominem. Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 13:22, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Yeah, you're right, someone might notice that 'Tewdar' is not a very common English name either. ] 14:26, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{cob}} | |||
| == Edit warring to prevent an RFC == | |||
| {{archive top | |||
| @] has removed an RFC tag from ] now within . | |||
| |result = Malnadach has been checkuser-blocked indefinitely as a sock of a serial long-term abuser. There is more information about this on the requests for arbitration page. While the fact that an editor is blocked doesn't automatically make an i-ban discussion about him or her moot, after reviewing the LTA page, assuming the CU finding is accurate there is no way Malnadach will be returning. Please note that the block just happened within the past couple of hours and was not known to anyone who commented in the discussion below. ] (]) 22:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| |status = '''Closed as moot'''}} | |||
| === Proposal for a one-way IBAN for Scottywong with ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ === | |||
| While, from ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ's tone, they were not driven off the project by Scotty's comments, as some above have postulated, the comments are no more acceptable for it. This is basically the bare minimum action, and I would advise Scotty to agree to a voluntary one-way IBAN and avoid ArbCom (or a CBAN, even?) ] (] • ]) 23:02, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as nom. ] (] • ]) 23:02, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :(If you didn't see the middle of the discussion and think an IBAN is not warranted for a supposed lack of ''long-term problems'': ].) ] (] • ]) 23:13, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :IBAN is Indefinite Ban, right? (I really don't know the acronyms) | |||
| :If so, then, | |||
| :'''SUPPORT''' Saying such xenophobic statements as Scotty used is unacceptable for even the newest editors. For an ADMIN, it's just indescribable. ] (]) 00:27, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, IBAN is ]. ] (] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 00:30, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Then: | |||
| ::'''OPPOSE''' We can't let Scotty get away with how they treated ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ. The bare minimum is an indefinite ban. Just because Scotty is an ADMIN doesn't mean that they shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. ] (]) 00:46, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Actually, an indefinite ban is the maximum. I don’t know what more you could do anything more to him after banning him from the site forever. —<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 00:50, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I dunno, a community ban isn't as bad as someone taking away my right to eat cookies. BTW, the proposal for an IBAN is pretty silly.--] (]) 00:56, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::True, but in a case like this, the minimum "sentence" (in lack of a better word) is the maximum sentence: indefinite ban. ] (]) 00:57, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I echo Bbb23's sentients - ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ was driven off the site and is very unlikely to ever return, Again either Scotty should resign or we should all take a trip to Arbcom. In my humble opinion IBANNING doesn't even scratch the surface here. –]<sup>]</sup> 01:03, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Scotty's comments are horrible, and an IBAN is not enough. At the very least, Scotty should lose his admin status. I'm pretty sure ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ has been driven off the site, as they haven't edited since early May. ''']''' (] | ]) 02:20, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as a bare minimum, without prejudice against more severe sanctions and/or an ArbCom case request. I agree that this is insufficient given the severity of the PAs, but that doesn't strike me as a good reason to oppose this sanction. Sanctions are meant to be preventative and it seems to me that, should ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ return to editing, this sanction would provide such a function. — ] [] '''·''' ]] 03:31, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *An IBAN for a single interaction seems unnecessary. ] (]) 04:09, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{Comment}} What is the point of banning any interaction between two users when their only interaction (written interaction) involved ScottyWong posting two comments at Malnadach's talk page? What is this supposed to achieve? ] (]'''-''']) 05:06, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:], it is a ''one-way'' IBAN on Scottywong, first off. While the incidents mentioned ] are not in themselves particularly uncivil, they show Scottywong has an issue with ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ, and the comments which are the focus of this discussion show he will make offensive comments to ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ and only sort of apologize. Ergo, it seems reasonable to expect further disruption from such. | |||
| *:And then again, the IBAN was proposed to ''encourage movement towards sanctions of some kind'' by presenting the bare minimum option. ] (] • ]) 06:04, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' seems pointless to me. The prior interaction from 2022 shows that Scottywong didn't like how ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ operated their bot, but that's hardly grounds for an iban. If a sanction is appropriate, this is not the correct one. ] (]) 05:30, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{Comment}}: Yes, as I said in proposing the IBAN, it '''is''' the bare minimum. But I proposed it mainly to move the discussion beyond a continuous stream of denunciations of Scotty's comments to action. Y'all could put your money where your mouths are and take it to ArbCom, regardless of this. ] understood this. Additionally, ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ could have temporarily stopped editing for any number of reasons, this incident being one. ] (] • ]) 05:48, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:In light of my comment that preceded this proposal, I do appreciate your rationale for proposing this sanction even if I don't agree that this is the correct path forward. I'll admit that I'm conflicted as to how this should be handled. I understand the calls for Scotty to be desysopped, but -- unless I'm missing something, which is certainly possible -- this doesn't seem to involve his use of the tools. I'm aware that admins can and have been desysopped in cases that did not involve misuse of the tools, but in this case I feel that the calls for desysop have an unattractively punitive flavor. While it is natural to be angered at boorish behavior from an admin, I'm not comfortable with the mob mentality that I've detected here. We don't desysop people to punish them or to get our pound of flesh. If we want to desysop Scotty because we've genuinely lost faith in him after this one incident that was reported a month later by an IP who made no effort to address this with Scotty before escalating it to ANI, then fine. Perhaps we are right to lose faith in him. And perhaps we are right to judge his apologies harshly, even if it is probably true that most of us would respond poorly if we were ambushed by an ANI thread like this one. When I reread Scottywong's comments, I see very little to defend. But something about the way this thread has been conducted just doesn't feel right. ] (]) 06:15, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::I just want to add a comment here (not sure if there's somewhere better, but ]'s comments do strike a note) "''But something about the way this thread has been conducted just doesn't feel right''": Yes, for sure, I feel the same way (even though I also see little to defend in Scottywong's comments). Trial by ANI is a horrible way to deal with issues like this, and it can make it sound like the accused is the devil incarnate. An angry outburst in public is really a very poor thing by which to judge a fellow human - and I say that after having met people who I like a lot in real life, but who have been excoriated here at ANI (and even blocked/banned/desysoped). When does community discussion and concensus become a knee-jerk baying mob? I'm not saying that's happened here, but I've definitely seen occasions when it's come too close for comfort. So what should we do about a contributor who, with hindsight, might not be a good fit for admin after all, but who is fundamentally a decent person who just has too many off days? I really don't know. I just wish there was something better than this. ] (]) 15:13, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - I am satisfied with Scottywong's latest apology and I am sure he will not try anything further with ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ, as obviously, harsh consequences await there. ''']] (])''' 07:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *<s>'''Oppose''' since IBANning against someone who appears to have left the project is pointless. Contrary to the half baked apologies above, Scottywong has said in Wikipediocracy today that there is no evidence that Malnadach was "sufficiently offended" by their messages. This indicates to me that Scottywong doesn't really understand the problem with their comments, which would cause them to behave the same way with other editors. This IBAN does not address the core problem, which is Scottywong's ] failure and behaviour which is unacceptable in a diverse project like Misplaced Pages. Send this to Arbcom please. ] (]) 07:53, 3 June 2023 (UTC)</s> <small>Blocked sock. ] (]) 22:16, 5 June 2023 (UTC)</small> | |||
| *'''<s>Oppose</s>''' as insufficient. If an admin needs an IBAN from someone, that just shows they should not be an admin. ] (]) 09:14, 3 June 2023 (UTC) -- Switch to '''Support''' per Tamzin's reasoning below. ] (]) 20:31, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:{{ec}} @]: Makes sense, but I would like to point out Ritchie333 received a two-way IBAN with Praxidicae from ArbCom (when already an admin). So it's not unprecedented. ] (] • ]) 15:30, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{Works for me|Support.}} I do not see how any further communication from {{u|Scottywong}} to {{u|ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ}} could be constructive.  — <span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span> 15:36, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''', ] against further sanctions. I dismiss out of hand any opposition based on the fact that Malnadach currently isn't editing. Maybe they'll return tomorrow, or in a year, or in 10 years. Whenever they do, maybe Scotty will still be editing then, and will have still not put the stick down about these linter fixes. (FWIW I've shared some of those concerns, but the point is that Scotty isn't able to express that without getting incivil, it seems.) Or maybe an IBAN would hasten Malnadach' return. It's the latter possibility that drives me to support more than anything, because I think that, as a practical matter, if Scotty were to say anything remotely incivil to Malnadach in the future, there are a number of admins who would be willing to make that block, with or without an IBAN. But in terms of signaling to Malnadach that the community won't ignore harassment of them, and signaling the same to all editors who might be in a similar situaton, I think an IBAN is more powerful than a mere lurking block threat. If further community or ArbCom sanctions are warranted, so be it, but that's never been a reason not to take the first step. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 18:11, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Rosguill's concern below is reasonable. I'd have no problem with a provision that Malnadach can unilaterally terminate the IBAN at any time. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 22:12, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. I'm on the fence about what sort of response this warrants, and I think both the "this is unacceptable" and the "avoid an angry mob" camps have good points. But I find Tamzin's argument convincing. ] <small>(])</small> 21:17, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' 1-way IBANs can often be burdensome even for the person "benefited" by the ban, as they would now have the burden of not acting in ways that could be interpreted as griefing against the IBANed editor. IBANs are only called for in cases of protracted harassment, when the affected editor is themselves in favor of the arrangement. I don't think imposing this with Malnadach in absentia is appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 22:09, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{archive bottom}} | |||
| ] provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list. | |||
| === Proposal: Send to Arbcom === | |||
| {{atop|1=]. To change policy, perhaps go to ]. ''']] (])'''{{nac}} 01:56, 4 June 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
| In the main thread above, more than two dozen editors have criticised Scottywong for his comments and there is unanimous agreement that his comments are incompatible with how admins are expected to behave. This indicates that Scottywong has lost the trust of community to continue to hold adminship. Since desysopping someone is not within the remit of AN/I, the thread should be closed and an Arbcom request should be filed. ] (]) 08:24, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as proposer. Since his last comment in this thread on June 1 and claiming to not monitor this, Scottywong has continued to discuss this on Wikipediocracy (members only thread) and making comments which are contrary to his apologies above. He has claimed in Wikipediocracy that there is no evidence that Malnadach was "sufficiently offended" by his comments, that it is "pure bullsh*t" that anyone would infer his comments as racist or xenophobic. This shows that his apologies above are not sincere; he is just pretending to show remorse onwiki to escape sanctions. If we had a community based desysop procedure, this would have been more than enough to invoke it. However in absence of that, we should file a formal request for arbitration. ] (]) 08:24, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. I do actually think Scottywong's apology is sincere, at least in part. I think he does feel remorse for the way he spoke to ] (whose name, incidentally, I copied and pasted in just a few seconds). But I don't see a full appreciation for how unaccpetable his conduct was, and continues to be, as an admin in response to criticism. So I think this should go to ARBCOM, for a couple of reasons. One is that we've seen a problematic aggressive attitude from Scottywong a number of times now (which can be brought up in evidence if there's a case, I don't want to relitigate them here). We've seen some sort of regret/apology in past cases too, but I see a repeated anger/aggression issue. That aggression, even if it shows rarely, is not compatible with being an admin. Also, Scottywong is still railing (at another site) against Misplaced Pages's policy of allowing multiple scripts/alphabets in usernames when communicating on the English language project. Now, he can dislike it - I'm sure we all have policy aspects that we dislike. But unless he can change it via consensus, he has to accept it. In fact, I'd say he committed to upholding it by accepting the admin role - or, at the very least, not openly attacking other editors ''for doing something <s>perfectly</s> in line with that policy''. That his dislike for a piece of policy can trigger such anger (and more than a hint of arrogance) also makes Scottywong unsuitable for admin, in my view. ] (]) 09:50, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Respectfully, ''{{tq|perfectly in line with}}'' is an overstatement. ] (in ]) does say {{xt|To avoid confusion and aid navigation, users with are encouraged to use Latin characters in their signature.}} Policy "encourages" a lot of things that are considered best practices, and it's a vague term that covers varying strengths of consensuses, but my reading is that ] would need to add a transliteration of his username to his signature in order to be ''perfectly'' in line with policy.{{pb}}I'm also minded of a courtesy blanked RfA from a few years ago where about half of the opposers took issue with the candidate's non-Latin username, so I'm feeling what Scottywong attributes to accessibility concerns may have some level of community buy-in. I disagree cos I can copypaste. Respectfully again, just in case it got lost in the nitpick, ] (]) 11:30, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::OK, perhaps not "perfectly", fair enough. But if something is allowed by policy, attacking people for being in line with it like that is just not acceptable, in my view. ] (]) 13:08, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Agree. Emotions inform our actions, but cannot excuse them. ] (]) 15:05, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::We're in tangent mode here, but FWIW, IMO the main accessibility issue with non-Latin names isn't addressing them in conversation, it's finding them when you're trying to look for their edits or ping them. It's all easy enough to do a 2 second copy-paste or type out Malnadach in this conversation, but if I'm trying to find their user page next month to follow up with them on something, it's going to take me a significant amount of scrolling through page histories to find them even if I can remember how to say their name out loud. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 22:23, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. Non-Latin name users should not suffer discrimination (especially due to SUL) let alone being driven out of the project. ] (]) 11:01, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. Referal to Arbcom is not merited for this, very poor, interaction between and Admin. and a user. FWIW, I am opposed to non-Latin user names but the frustrated interaction here was out of order. There has been an puerile outburst of frustration and a largely defective apology. In the wider scheme of things, while sub-optimal, it is more of a strike along the lines of 3 strikes and you're out, rather than an gross violation requiring immediate action. On balance, warnings given, acknowledgement of the errors and assurances for the future seems an appropriate way forward. ] (]) 11:51, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *One doesn't need permission to send a request to ArbCom, because in the end, the ones granting permission will be the arbitrators and not the community. The Wikipediocracy comments disturb me, at any rate. I now no longer feel the apology has any standing. Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 12:08, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - I hold no trust or confidence in this admin and if what the IP is saying is true then his apologies really do mean nothing, Given he seemingly doesn't want to resign, this should then go to Arbcom. –]<sup>]</sup> 13:59, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Personally, I don't understand why we allow IPs to make proposals such as these. ] 15:25, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Why shouldn't we? ] (]) 15:36, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. I am extremely disappointed to see Scottywong's xenophobic comments at ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ's talk page. Comments like those are unacceptable, and Scottywong has lost my trust as an admin. People are right about their reservations of the apology above. Repeated emphasis on his intention, and how he wasn't "trying to be racist or xenophobic" didn't help a bit in making him come across as being genuinely remorseful. That kind of logic is equivalent to saying "it was a joke guys" after making racist remarks. The issue is not on whether he meant it as insulting or not, it is about whether he had the slightest idea on how his comments are seen as such. The comments at WPO continue to show his inability to get the point. <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x]</span>→∞ (]) 15:30, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{Works for me|Support.}} Misplaced Pages administration is a privilege, not a right. {{u|Scottywong}} has demonstrated that he has never fully grasped Misplaced Pages's five pillars.  — <span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span> 15:36, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *You realize that this is not a way to send anything to ArbCom? The next person coming here to post a meaningless "Support" in boldface should instead file a case request. ] (]) 16:02, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:There's nothing wrong with checking to see if there's a consensus first. ] (]) 16:20, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Consensus for what?—] 17:31, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Consensus, or general agreement, that this needs to be taken to Arbcom - what else did you think I meant? ] (]) 18:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::There was nothing else, I just wanted to be sure as it didn't quite make sense. Basically, I disagree that there's nothing wrong. That decision is not subject to consensus under arbitration rules. Anyone can submit this request and a plurality of editors can't decide about that on another's behalf, so as to prevent or dictate that it be done. This discussion creates a distorted image of how the process operates. It could actually prevent someone from filing a report because they are waiting to see what the outcome could be and the outcome could be procedural. This should probably stop.—] 19:39, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Further, this is basically a list of people who would like someone to submit a request but don't feel confident writing it themselves, so it evokes the question of why are they not confident. If so many people appear reluctant, it could influence someone who otherwise would have done it to also become reluctant.—] 19:48, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Ah, got you, I understand what you mean now. I can see why someone might want to check if there's support first - but yes, anyone can just go ahead with it. (And I suspect there might be an element of "''I hope someone else will do it to save me the effort''" ;-) ] (]) 20:25, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''': But I still think no one should oppose the IBAN because it "doesn't go far enough" — the arbs may reject this case, or they may choose to simply warn Scotty, but '''we can always have the IBAN as a safety net'''. ] (] • ]) 17:02, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' that it is the rough consensus of the community that ArbCom should consider whether {{noping|Scottywong}} should be desysopped. ] (]) 19:54, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Weak support''' I think I generally agree with Leaky caldron's analysis here, but the continued whingeing at the other website (which I have not read myself) appears to be giving a lot of people pause. If editors genuinely feel that they have lost confidence in Scottywong's ability to use admin tools, an ArbCom request is the correct path forward. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 22:19, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' ScottyWong has lost the confidence of the community in his admin abilities. They have bullied an editor off the project. Why should they still be an admin? ''']''' (] | ]) 23:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' and '''filed''' - ] ―<span style="background:#368ec9;border:solid 2px;border-radius:5px"> ''''']''''' </span> 23:52, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Thank you, GhostOfDanGurney, for doing this. This ANI thread has long outlived it usefulness especially since there's no provision for community desysopping. ArbCom's a more appropriate venue for deciding if that's called for. <span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 01:36, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ====A Policy Suggestion==== | |||
| It is pointed out that the community doesn't have the authority to send a case to ArbCom. The community only has the authority to state that it requests that ArbCom take up a case that the community is unable to resolve. There are at least two types of cases that the community is unable to resolve. The first is loss of confidence in an administrator. Although the administrator is an administrator because the community had confidence in them, the community does not have the power to withdraw that confidence. The second is editors whose conduct divides and polarizes the community. I suggest that the community, which elects the ArbCom, should have the authority to instruct the ArbCom to take up a case. I am mentioning this here, and am aware that ] isn't the forum to act on this idea. ] (]) 19:54, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :This seems similar to the recent RFC at ], now at ]. It's not a complete match but seems somewhere between the second and third alternative proposals. The only proposal that passed was the first alternative, which doesn't seem to apply here. -- LCU ''']''' <small>''∆]∆'' °]°</small> 20:15, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :There's no reason why it can't. ArbCom members needn't give any special weight to a 'community consensus' requesting a case be heard, aside from any normal weight they would give to statements made on the case request. The main benefit of this 'referral' is really that a neutral closer would be filing the case request, which immunises any single person from the difficult position of being the case filer. There's not really a policy issue with that. ] (]) 20:24, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Given that ArbCom members are all volunteers, I don't see any way to compel them to do anything. And I really don't see any need anyway. ] (]) 20:27, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ec|2}} I'm not sure a policy change is needed. The community can propose and enact a motion to call for anything. We could have a community motion that dogs are better pets than cats, if we wanted. And if the enactment of a resolution would involve notifying some other body, that's something that can be done by the closer, with a link back to the discussion. "I am filing this arbitration request as closer of {{fake link|an AN/I discussion}}, which resolved that $issue merits ArbCom attention to look into <claims of admin misconduct|an intractable dispute>. Here is a basic summary of the facts..." The only issue would be if the receiving body sees a problem with that approach, but I don't think that's very likely in the case of ArbCom. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 20:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::See ]. I recommend closing this thread now that this ArbCom request has been made. --<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 01:42, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an ] problem or a ] that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm ''not'' saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in ''some'' cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute. | |||
| == Disruptive editing by Mitrayasna and Ashkan3de (edit: who have just been banned from fa.wikipedia for sockpuppetry)== | |||
| EDIT: Since 3 June, they have an indefinite block on fa.wikipedia, for sockpuppetry (see: ). Does that suffice to do the same here? | |||
| I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the ]. See you tomorrow. ] (]) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] and ] both insist on inclusion of a text that contains obvious interpunction problems, an unreliable (probably ]) source, and a misrepresented source: | |||
| etc. | |||
| :As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC. | |||
| They mostly responded ] to my and 3 other users' comments about this text and related illustrations on ], and to my comments, suggestions and questions on ], ] and ]. | |||
| :I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith. | |||
| :The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. ] (]) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. ] (]) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Axad12}}, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have ''absolutely no'' conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. ] (]) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{u|Axad12}}, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. {{u|WhatamIdoing}}, a {{tl|trout}} for ]ing. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template. | |||
| ::::The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. ] (]) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be ''falsely accused'' of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that {{tpq|exceptionally serious abuse}}? ] (]) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request. | |||
| :I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request). | |||
| :As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. ] (]) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? ] (]) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content. | |||
| :::Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. ] (]) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::"Asking a second time" is not ]. ] (]) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. ] (]) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the ]. See, e.g., {{xt|An editor ''gaming the system'' is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support.}} Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy. | |||
| ::::::I also direct your attention to the item that says {{xt|Gaming the system may include...]ing the consensus-building process}}. ] (]) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to ], which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. ] (]) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not {{tq|highly misleading}}. | |||
| :::I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. ] (]) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? ] (]) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. ] (]) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved. | |||
| ::I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. ] (]) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when ] can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one ] book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer. | |||
| :::But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my ] experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. ] (]) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself. | |||
| ::::It isn't really relevant here but actually I ''didn't'' expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. ] (]) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor ] with {{u|Graywalls}}, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article. | |||
| Also note behaviour that seems to indicate: | |||
| Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue. | |||
| ] (if not ]): Ashkan3de only started editing on the English pages after a dispute about Mitrayasna's edits, and mainly kept placing the disputed text and related imagery. While Mitrayasna has stopped this after a 24h block, Ashkan3de continues. | |||
| Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (]) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative. | |||
| ] apart from insisting on inclusion of obvious interpunction errors, from glancing over ], this editor seems more concerned about a nationalistic/ethnic agenda than about proper encyclopedic information. Much of this gets reverted back and forth and causes disputes, see for instance: | |||
| '''Proposal''': Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and ], Axad12 and Graywalls should be ] from the Breyers article and its talk page. | |||
| ] see | |||
| *'''Support'''. ] (]) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Misrepresentation of discussion: | |||
| **You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:'''Oppose''': I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard. | |||
| *:I have not {{tq|ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate}}, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them. | |||
| *:Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024. | |||
| *:I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make. | |||
| *:Also, the idea that I made a {{tq|hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC}} is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect. | |||
| *:I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time. | |||
| *:Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at ], but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. ] (]) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. , because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see ] for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling ]. {{re|Aoidh}} also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see ] ] (]) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 11:24, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. ] (]) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It is about the difference of images on a cup. There was information about this on this article's Misplaced Pages page before my edits, I just expanded it. And I cited a book by ], one of the most famous researchers in this field. I find it very strange that he is determined to exclude the views of one of animation's greatest historians. | |||
| *::I'd just like to echo that sentiment. I'm all in favour of consensus. | |||
| :I hope they have no racist motives. | |||
| *::My position on this article hasn't been motivated by a partisan view on Propylene Glycol but has simply been in relation to serving the consensus position as it stood at the time. That is the approach I hope I adopt on all Misplaced Pages articles. If the consensus alters on this article (as seems likely) then I'll adopt the same approach in relation to serving the ''new'' consensus. | |||
| :] (]) 13:44, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::My primary area of interest on this website is COI issues. I'm simply not interested in content disputes or in pushing any kind of POV on Misplaced Pages. I'm not the sort of user who flagrantly disregards a newly emerging consensus by editing contrary to the outcome of an RfC. | |||
| ::I have actually used Bendazzi's work as a source for several contributions to ], while the disputed misquotation seriously misrepresents his view, as explained to Mitrayasna multiple times by at least 3 others (see: ). The suggestion of racist motives is strange and quite offensive imho. ] (]) 16:48, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::I'd welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that going forwards (i.e. without an article ban). ] (]) 06:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::* The mention by Graywalls for an RfC on 27 Dec had no influence on the one existing. As an uncomplicated process, an editor truly sincere in having community input would have posed a simple objective question. Graywalls, why didn't you take 5 minutes and create the RfC question you wanted? What would have been your RfC question? | |||
| *::Specifically for propylene glycol (you are still defending its use in the article by - see comments about this book in the RfC): {{tq|what do you believe propylene glycol does in a frozen dessert and what would you prefer the article to say about propylene glycol? I have asked for this clarification on the talk page many times and in the DRN, but you ignored the opportunity to collaborate and clarify.}} | |||
| *:: | |||
| *::Your reverts in article history and combative talk page behavior over months revealed a persistent intent to disparage the Breyers article, focus on the "antifreeze" slur (mainly promoting ), and restore a skeletal version having no sources more recent than 2018 , after That version also has misinformation under the section 'Ice cream', falsely stating that Breyers changed their ice cream ingredients by using other additives, which in fact, were used to evolve a new category of frozen desserts not intended to be ice cream. I believe you know this, but you and Axad12 persisted to favor misinformation for the article. | |||
| *::The RfC I provided came from steps in the lead of ]: 1) generally poor talk page progress, where one editor seeking facts verified by current sources was opposed by Graywalls, Adax12, and {{u|NutmegCoffeeTea}}, all defending a version including "antifreeze"; 2) an RSN post where Graywalls argued that a web link by the Seattle PI made the Motley Fool article an RS; 3) for which Graywalls, Axad12, and NutmegCoffeeTea abstained from collaboration to improve the article; 4) , which appears to be <u>willfully ignored</u> by Axad12 and Graywalls, who responded only with hostility and defiance against the facts; 5) seeking third opinions from admins, first by BD2412 (talk page on 29-30 Nov) and by , resulting in verbose trolling by these two users. Axad12's response on 27 Dec was to . | |||
| *::Axad12 and Graywalls should be ABANNED from the Breyers article for exhibiting 1) hostility on the talk page to good faith proposals for making the article better, and 2) persistence to perpetuate misinformation on propylene glycol. Simply, what history shows that either editor has tried to improve the Breyers article? Both users meet most of the definitions of ] for the article, its talk page, and the RfC. ] (]) 18:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Zefr, I've already indicated on several occasions that I welcome and support the developing new consensus. Graywalls has made a similar comment below. That being the case, I don't really see what purpose an article ban would be intended to serve. | |||
| *:::Admittedly there has been some quite heated disagreement over recent months, but it seems that we all now have the robust talkpage consensus that we were hoping for in one way or another and that all three of us are happy to move forward in support of that consensus. | |||
| *:::You were clearly in the minority for quite a long time and I can appreciate that you found that experience frustrating. However, to continue to make allegations above of bad faith, trolling, tagteaming, etc. about those who constituted the valid majority for several months is just an attempt to perpetuate strife on an issue which is now, as far as I can see, satisfactorily resolved. ] (]) 19:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Filed under: sometimes you hurt articles by treating COI editors as the enemy. The problem here is two users who should really know better edit-warring over the course of ''months'' to reinstate TikTok diet influencer silliness into a Misplaced Pages article, repeatedly reinstating ] content (implicitly, if not explicitly). We currently treat a little "avoid antifreeze" bubble in a diet book (which includes Breyers in a list of brands) and a book published by one of RFK Jr's antivax publishers as ] for including the insinuation that an FDA-approved and much-conspiratorialized additive is harmful. They've been repeatedly removed, but two editors keep putting them back, whether because of a misunderstanding of ]/] or in pursuit of COI purification. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 13:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I take your point but I think you're misjudging the situation somewhat. Prior to the opening of the current RfC it was approximately 6 or 7 users in favour of inclusion vs 3 or 4 favouring exclusion. I only reverted the attempts at exclusion because those attempts were contrary to the talk page consensus. | |||
| *:I'm perfectly open to the suggestion that that consensus position was wrong but the simple fact of the matter was that there was ''at that time'' no consensus in favour of exclusion. | |||
| *:It has only been in the last couple of days that the requesting editor has been able to demonstrate a consensus in favour of exclusion. And that's great, I have no problem with that at all. In fact I welcome it. | |||
| *:My understanding is that editors wishing to make changes to article text should not do so if there is a consensus against what they are trying to do, and that under such circumstances an edit can be (indeed ''should be'') reverted. If I'm mistaken on that score then I'm perfectly happy to take instruction. However, I really want to stress that my actions were based primarily upon that reasoning and were made in good faith. ] (]) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::@], you should not revert something because other editors want it to be reverted. You should only make content changes that you personally support. This is necessary for BRD to work. See ] for an explanation of why. ] (]) 17:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:{{re|Rhododendrites}}, the antifreeze matter is ] since I believe everyone's pretty much agreed it doesn't need to be in there. Zefr has taken issues with me, Axad12, NutMegCoffee and possibly some others. They've tried to get the article "set in place" to their preferred version, but that was declined admin {{u|Daniel Case}} who determined it to be content dispute ]. Zefr inferring alleging I was <s>"uncooperative"</s> <u>not collaborating/cooperating in the way that he was hoping</u> in DR, but I don't believe that to be so. <u>There was nothing intentional on my part to not cooperate.</u> I'll see if {{re|Robert McClenon}} would like to share their observation on that since they closed the dispute. | |||
| *:https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Breyers/Archive_2#c-Rusalkii-20240814014600-Inkian_Jason-20240801145900 here's another uninvolved editoring erring on the side of inclusion. A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus. Reading through the current plus the archived discussions, up until the RfC, the general consensus is in support of having PG mention and Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus. As I mentioned, if consensus changes with the RfC, I'm not opposed to going with that. ] (]) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) (adjusted ] (]) 13:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)) | |||
| *::For the record, I never stated the word "uncooperative" at DRN or the Breyers talk page, but rather "non-collaborative", as discussed in the thread with Robert McClenon below. | |||
| *::"Set in place to their preferred version" and "Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus" should be translated to using "facts verified by reliable sources", which is the simple goal for the Breyers article that Graywalls has obstructed over months. | |||
| *::It's incredible that Graywalls says even today above, knowing the comments on the RfC and months of being presented with facts and sources about why propylene glycol is safely used in thousands of manufactured foods: ''"A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus."'' | |||
| *::Here's your chance to tell everyone: | |||
| *::Why do you feel propylene glycol was used in Breyers frozen desserts (in 2013, not since)? What concern do you have about it, and what government or scientific source says it's unsafe in the amounts regulated by federal laws? Give a sentence here that you think meets consensus and uses a reliable source. ] (]) 01:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::You're right, you did not use that specific word. I've corrected my response due to wording. ] (]) 13:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===A Non-Mediator's Statement=== | |||
| To clarify my NOTHERE suspicions: almost every contibution by Mitrayasna that I checked is about Iran purportedly having pioneered whatever an artcile is about, e.g. trousers , the necktie , or even ice hockey . Nationalistic pride isn't necessarily a problem and Iran is actually home to one of the world's oldest civilizations, but it seems this editor's claims are seldom backed up with proper sources and are thus not easily accepted by others. Mitrayasna seems to find it rather difficult to accept contrary claims, and thus repeatedly ends up edit warring (for instance ,, and , , , and , , , ). An ethnic element seems to have played a role in banning a Kurdish name from an article , as now more clearly dicussed on . When asked why this name would be controversial, Mitrayasna just deflected the issue by maintaining that this name has no place outside her biography .] (]) 12:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| I am not entirely sure why ] has pinged me about this dispute, saying that I "closed this dispute". The accuracy of the statement that I "closed this dispute" depends on what is meant by "this dispute". | |||
| I closed the ] thread, ], on 12 December. I obviously didn't resolve a dispute that has been continuing for another three weeks, and the claim that I closed the dispute looks to me like an attempt to confuse the jury. ] had opened the DRN thread on 3 December, complaining about the insertion of the word ] and of the mention of ]. I was not entirely sure beyond the mention of ] what the issues were. There were questions about what the procedure was for handling a ] dispute; I think that Zefr was said to be the one. There was a long question that may have been about whether ] is voluntary; DRN is voluntary. Then Zefr said that the case could be withdrawn because no one else was commenting. The disputants other than Zefr never did say exactly what the article content issues were, perhaps because they didn't want to discuss article content, and were not required to discuss article content. If anyone is implying that I resolved or settled anything, I have no idea what it was. | |||
| Do I understand correctly from and that they are both already blocked indefinitely (since June 3) from the Persian wikipedia? And why are their names linked there?] (]) 15:02, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| I see that the dispute either was continuing in other forums for three weeks, or has reopened. I see that ] edit-warred to prevent an RFC from running, making vague but noisy statements about ]. I don't know who is said to be working for Unilever or for anyone else. It is clear that this dispute is longer on antagonism than on clarity. ] (]) 22:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Problem with user == | |||
| :{{re|Robert McClenon}}, I pinged you, because I felt you'd be a good commentator to evaluate whether you also felt I was "not cooperative" in the process as Zefr says. I tried to participate, but it got closed shortly after I posted a comment in it. ] (]) 22:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I need to raise an issue with {{u|ČugaĎ}}, a user who repeatedly goes around adding " films" and "Horror films" categories to films that are ''already'' in " horror films" categories, in defiance of ] rules. Even more importantly, they've now ignored ''three'' prior requests to stop doing that — they stopped for a while after I threatened to take it to ANI the third time, but then they started up again yesterday. In addition, they're sometimes also adding films to questionable genre categories that aren't properly supported ''at all'', such as filing '']'' in {{cl|Comedy films}} and '']'' in {{cl|Fantasy films}} even though neither the articles' text nor their IMDb profiles suggest that those genre labels would be accurate in any way. | |||
| ::Was that purposely mis-stated to be provocative and mislead the discussion here? | |||
| ::I said you were <u>non-collaborative</u>, which describes your behavior throughout your editing history on the Breyers article, its talk page, and the DRN. You refused collaboration at DRN, which is the whole point of the process. DRN FAQ: ''"refusing participation can be perceived as a refusal to collaborate, and is not conducive to consensus-building."'' | |||
| ::You were notified about the , and you posted a general notice about it on the , so you were aware of the process, but ignored it. Meanwhile, your editing history over 6-12 Dec shows dozens of edits, | |||
| ::You made no attempt to collaborate at DRN, posting only one off-topic | |||
| ::I requested closure of the DRN on 12 Dec due to non-participation by you and the others. On 13 Dec, . cc: {{u|Robert McClenon}}. ] (]) 00:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ====A Possibly Requested Detail==== | |||
| Okay. If the question is specifically whether ] was uncooperative at ], then I can state that they were not uncooperative and did not obstruct or disrupt DRN. Graywalls took very little part in the DRN proceeding before I closed it. They were not required to take part, although they say that they would have made a statement if the case had stayed open a little longer. The antagonism that I saw was between ] and ], and I collapsed an exchange between them. I did not read what I am told were long previous discussions, because I expect the disputants at DRN to begin by telling me concisely what each of them wants to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Graywalls was not uncooperative at DRN. | |||
| ] (]) 00:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Okay. ] is making a slightly different statement, that ] did not ] at DRN. That is correct. And I noted above that their mention that I had closed the dispute depended on what was meant by the "dispute". and looked like an attempt to confuse the jury. ] (]) 03:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] Zefr did not use the word uncooperative although did say uncollaborative and I used the two interchangeably in my ping. I did participate in it ]. I haven't participated in DRN until that point, so I wasn't really sure how it worked. ] (]) 13:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===The actual content that led to this dispute=== | |||
| Two month ago, ] included this shockingly bad content: {{tpq|As of 2014, some flavors of Breyer's ice cream contains propylene glycol as an additive. Propylene glycol is a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze and it is clear fluid made by "treating propylene with chlorinated water to form the chlorohydrin, which is then converted to the glycol, an alcohol, by treating it with a sodium carbonate solution." Propylene glycol is formulated into Breyer's fat-free and Carb Smart ice cream to make it easier to scoop.}} The notion that an article about an ice cream company should include a detailed description of how a ] food additive is manufactured is bizarre enough, as is the cherrypicked and glaringly misleading assertion about "antifreeze", but the reference used to support the Breyers claim was a book called ''Eat It to Beat It!: Banish Belly Fat-and Take Back Your Health-While Eating the Brand-Name Foods You Love!'' written by a quack/crank diet profiteer named David Zinczenko. I invite any editor to take a search engine look at Zinczenko's body of work, and come away with the conclusion that his writings are anything other than fringe and unreliable. Despite the glaringly obviously non-neutral and tendentious problems with this shockingly bad content, editors including most prominently {{u|Graywalls}} and {{u|Axad12}} dug in their heels, fighting a reargard action for nearly two months, determined to make this mundane routine ice cream company look as bad as possible. Their self-justification seems to be that big bad corporations have ''no right whatsover'' to try to remove atrociously bad content about their products from Misplaced Pages, and that any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association. I am not an advocate for corporations ''per se'', but I am an advocate for corporations being treated ] like all other topics, rather with disdain and contempt, which was the case here, as I see it. I do not know what the best outcome is here, but I certainly encourage these two editors to refrain from any other unjustified and poorly referenced anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end. ] (]) 07:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :A striking and shocking aspect of this sordid situation is that two editors, {{u|Graywalls}} and {{u|Axad12}} were able to concoct a false "consensus" supporting various versions of this garbage content. And then when another editor tried to start a RFC about the appallingly bad content, {{u|Axad12}} tried over and over and over again to stop the RFC and defend the atrocious content rather than correcting it, aided and abetted by {{u|Graywalls}}. When the RFC actually went live, it soon became clear that many editors agreed that the content these two editors advocated for was utterly inappropriate. ] (]) 08:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Cullen, | |||
| :As per my comments above, my motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time. I did not {{tq|concoct}} that consensus, at least 5 users other than me were against excluding the material. | |||
| :I have never had any particularly strong opinion one way or the other on the content issue and I try as best as I can not to get involved in content disputes. I have not {{tq|dug in heels}} or attempted to promote any kind of fringe opinion and nor have I engaged in {{tq|anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end}}. | |||
| :Similarly I do not hold the view that {{tq|any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association}}, or any opinion even vaguely resembling that view. On the contrary, I have often implemented COI edit requests on behalf of corporations or have pointed out to corporate employees how such requests would need to be amended to conform with sourcing or other requirements. Repeatedly engaging in that activity would presumably make me very {{tq|evil}} indeed, in my own eyes, if I held the view that you attribute to me. | |||
| :I reverted the Breyer edits in good faith because there was no consensus in favour of them. If I was incorrect on a point of policy in that regard then fair enough, however please do not attempt to attribute to me sentiments which I do not harbour. | |||
| :Also, I did not attempt to stop the RfC {{tq|over and over and over again}}. I removed the tag twice, then requested guidance from administrators and immediately replaced the tag when requested to do so. The tag was removed, in all, for a matter of minutes and had no meaningful impact on the progress of the RfC. I have accepted elsewhere that I now appreciate that the basis on which I removed the tag was inappropriate. I have also stated that {{tq|From my standpoint wasn't a process that I was familiar with - but I can see from the many excellent contributions here that this is the best way of resolving content disputes}}. I have also stated that I welcome and support the new consensus. ] (]) 08:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , {{u|Axad12}}, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. ] (]) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I {{tq|obviously dislike}} Breyers or (their parent company) Unilever, or indeed that I consider either to be {{tq|evil}}? | |||
| :::To the best of my recollection, I've only ever made 3 mainspace edits to the Breyers article - each time on the stated basis in the edit summary that the edit I was reverting was contrary to consensus. | |||
| :::I've re-read the extensive talk page discussions in recent days and I can only see that I ever commented on the COI angle and the nature of the consensus. Those comments were based on my understanding of policy at the time. I do not see {{tq|anti-corporate diatribes}} or evidence that I {{tq|obviously dislike}} Breyers or Unilever. | |||
| :::Indeed, I do not hold any particularly strong views on Breyers, Unilever or any other corporations. ] (]) 09:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I said, {{u|Axad12}}, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to ] to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. ] (]) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My activity on that talk page has solely been in relation to pointing out what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was a valid COI concern and observing that from Aug to Dec there has never been a consensus in favour of exclusion. | |||
| :::::Anything beyond that is simply you attributing motives that do not exist. | |||
| :::::I have never stated or implied that {{tq|a corporation does not deserve neutrality}} and nor do I hold such a view. | |||
| :::::I happily admit that I'm quite animated and enthusiastic about COI issues and reverting edits which appear to be contrary to consensus. With the benefit of hindsight probably I should have let go of those issues at an earlier stage and vacated the field for those who actually had an appetite to argue on content grounds. | |||
| :::::I'd also point out that for a significant part of the last 2 months I had actually unsubscribed from the relevant talkpage threads and only ended up getting involved again due to being summoned to the Dispute Resolution thread. If I had been {{tq|determined over the last two months to maintain various versions of biased non-neutral content}} then hopefully it stands to reason that I would not have unsubscribed in that way - thus resulting in a situation where I was actually completely unaware of much of the talkpage and mainspace activity over the period that you refer to. ] (]) 10:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your {{tq|motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time}}. You are also obligated to ''actually'' look at the disputed content and the sources supporting it. Why didn't you do that? Why were you unable to see what multiple editors in the RfC are commenting about? You shouldn't just blindly revert content like that, without taking a look for yourself to see if the complaint about the disputed content has any merit, like it being reliably sourced and due for inclusion.]] 10:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That's a very fair question. | |||
| :::::::The answer is that I was inclined to believe the opinions of editors much more experienced than myself who were against exclusion, particularly the editor who turned down the original COI edit request (whose work on COI edit requests I have the greatest of respect for). | |||
| :::::::User Whatamidoing has already pointed out above that my error lay in accepting those users' opinions. I agree with Whatamidoing's observation there. | |||
| :::::::I can only say that what I did was done in good faith based on my understanding of policy at the time. I now know where I erred (in several different ways) and I am glad to have received instruction in that regard. | |||
| :::::::However, I really cannot accept the repeated suggestion that I vindictively masterminded a long anti-corporate campaign to keep bad material in an article. That suggestion is fundamentally not true. ] (]) 10:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been.]] 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Yes, I entirely accept that. | |||
| :::::::::For clarity, when I said {{tq|my understanding of policy at the time}} I meant ''my understanding of policy'' at the time - I wasn't trying to suggest that the policy has changed since I made those edits. | |||
| :::::::::What I am saying is that those edits were not made with malice, they were made because I accepted the opinions of other users more experienced than myself, opinions which I now know that I ought to have questioned. ] (]) 11:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — ] (]) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::As I said earlier in this thread, I am 100% supportive of the new consensus in favour of excluding the previously disputed material. | |||
| :::::::::::Virtually all of my time on Misplaced Pages is spent at COIN and dealing with COI edit requests. I'm not the sort of user who spends their time edit warring over POV fringe material and generally being disruptive. | |||
| :::::::::::So, the last thing I would ever do is attempt to reinstall material where a very robust consensus at RfC has indicated that it should be excluded. | |||
| :::::::::::I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that I can be trusted in that regard. ] (]) 12:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — ] (]) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::Yes, quite so. I have acknowledged my error in that regard in my first response to Isaidnoway, above, re: the very useful input I received from Whatamidoing. ] (]) 17:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Axad, if I read what you wrote correctly, and please correct me if I misunderstand: ''I will stay away from that article because I support the current consensus''. My concern is what if consensus was to shift on that article? ] ] 17:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::Apologies if my earlier response was unclear. My point was that I have absolutely no intention of edit warring over the previously disputed material (or any other material) so I don't see what purpose it would serve to ban me from the article. | |||
| :::::::::::::I have only ever made (to the best of my knowledge) 3 previous edits to the article (1 in November and 2 in December?). These were all on the basis of a misunderstanding on a point of policy which has been pointed out to me above and which I have happily acknowledged and accepted. The issue at stake was not that I harbour any partisan view in relation to the content dispute, it was that I edited to reflect the views of other editors whose opinions I respected on the matter in question. | |||
| :::::::::::::I do not see any reason for the community to anticipate that I would made a similar misunderstanding of policy going forwards. | |||
| :::::::::::::Hopefully this clarifies... ] (]) 17:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've been expecting something to happen around ], whom I ran into several months ago during a ]. What I noticed back in October was that Axad12 seemed to be ''clerking the noticeboard'', making prosecutorial noises, and sometimes unsupported accusations (ex: {{tq|...the existence of COI seems quite clear...}} , {{tq|...in relation to your undeclared conflict of interest...}} , {{tq|As I said, the fact that there was a significant undeclared conflict of interest in relation to editing on Paralympic Australia-related articles was demonstrated some years ago.}} ) towards what they thought of as COI editors (this was about whether ] had failed to adequately announce their conflict with Paralympic Australia, where they've been openly helping as a volunteer on our community's behalf for many years, and after they had just made an ]). I often find such clerking of noticeboards by relatively unseasoned users to be troublesome; Axad12 has 490 edits at COIN, about 12% of their total 3801 edits (but about a third of the roughly 1500 edits total on COIN since September). If you use a hammer all day, you might begin to think that all objects are potentially nails. ] (]) 12:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. ] (]) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think it would be a good idea for {{u|Axad12}} to take a break from ] and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. ] (]) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. ] (]) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::In fairness, the overwhelming majority of my posts at COIN over the last year or so have been simple helpful contributions. The two matters discussed above were atypical and in both cases I've taken on board the advice I was given. | |||
| :::::If (per the figures above) I've been making about a third of all the contributions at COIN over that period then my behaviour would have been reported here long ago if I was either disruptive or incompetent. | |||
| :::::That said, I won't deny that I've been seriously considering retiring from Misplaced Pages over the last two months. The only reason I've not done so is because other users have specifically encouraged me to carry on because they value my work at COIN and on COI issues generally. | |||
| :::::All I can say is that what I have done, I have done in good faith and when I have occasionally erred I have learned lessons. I have acknowledged above that I've made mistakes and I'm grateful to those who have given me advice. ] (]) 15:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard ''is not the high achievement you might think it is''. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. ] (]) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Buster, I know that we've had crossed words in the past so I'm grateful for your understanding and your measured response above. Yes, I deal with many bad faith users and yes it does wear on me sometimes. | |||
| :::::::I don't claim any great expertise in COI matters but I do have the time to dedicate to the project and I've picked up a decent awareness of the methods that can be used to detect and prevent UPE/PROMO etc activity. | |||
| :::::::I believe that in the past when I've been given advice on points of policy I've taken that advice on board and would hope to continue to do so in the future. ] (]) 17:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::This comment is not about you, but you might be interested in it: I've been thinking for years that a rotating duty system might be helpful. Of course we're all ], but we might be less stressed, and get more representative results, if we each spent a week at ANI and a month at RSN and a week at CCI each year than if one editor spends all year at ANI and another spends all year at RSN (and nobody is at CCI – anyone who is looking for an opportunity to deal with really serious problems should please consider spending some time at ]. The few regulars there will be so grateful, and who knows? You might find that you like it). ] (]) 18:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I do think that it's worth zooming out and looking at the article as a whole. Comparing the version from to the makes it obvious that the tone of the article has become vastly more promotional, with much more focus on glowy feel-good aspects that are only mentioned in lower-quality sources (the story about the original creator hand-churning it?) And the ''context'' of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) to the weird {{tq|In 2013, Breyers introduced frozen desserts made with food additives (section above) that were intended to create smooth, low-calorie products. However, the new desserts evoked complaints by some consumers who were accustomed to the traditional "all-natural" Breyers ice cream.}}, which 100% reads like marketing-speak (downplaying the reaction by making it sound like it's just that people loved the old version ''so much''. In fact, the current version doesn't mention Breyer's cost-cutting measures at all, even though it's a massive aspect of coverage.) That doesn't necessarily justify the version above, but it's important to remember that this was originally a one-word mention in a larger list - {{tq|Following similar practices by several of their competitors, Breyers' list of ingredients has expanded to include thickeners, low-cost sweeteners, food coloring and low-cost additives — including natural additives such as tara gum and carob bean gum; artificial additives such as maltodextrin and propylene glycol; and common artificially separated and extracted ingredients such as corn syrup, whey, and others}}, the longstanding wording, is not unreasonable and doesn't really imply that there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol, just that it's an additive. I think the context of that larger shift to a much more promotional tone to the article is significant (and looking over talk, most of the actual dispute has focused on that.) --] (]) 17:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article.]] 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::@], about this {{xt|And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources)}} – I don't know what other sources say, but the ''cited'' sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually ] a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. ] (]) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::(As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at ] instead of here.) ] (]) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::{{re|Aquillion|WhatamIdoing|Isaidnoway}} would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? ] (]) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I don't mind, but my contribution to this thread is relatively minor. ] (]) 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ====Thanks, and a Diddly Question==== | |||
| I would like to thank ] for providing the background and content information. I also have a possibly minor question for ]. They edit-warred to try to stop the RFC on the content, and said that there was an {{tq|exceptionally serious abuse}} of the ] process. I may not have done enough background research, but I don't see where they have identified who has been the paid editor or undisclosed paid editor, or what the ] content is. If there has been paid editing, who has done it, and have they been dealt with? ] (]) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Robert, probably the best single overview of the COI issue is given in this post . | |||
| Basically, it's becoming tiresome to have to clean up after them, but asking them to stop clearly isn't making them stop. ] (]) 16:01, 1 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :My impression at the time of the events, and subsequently, was that the activity was designed to distort the COI edit request process. I still feel that what happened re: the COI edit requests was irregular but I note that no other user seems to have supported me in that regard so I've not taken the matter any further. Similarly, while I felt that those events had a bearing on the RfC I now accept that the RfC relates solely to the content matter specifically under discussion. ] (]) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I think a topic ban on categorization is warranted. CugaD seem to be an otherwise productive editor who just cannot grasp categorization guidelines. ] <sup><i>]</i></sup> 14:02, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I find your characterization of events inaccurate. "we have the resubmission of the request to remove the disputed material in a COI edit request thread here " | |||
| :For what it's worth, edits otherwise identical to ČugaĎ's, adding " films" and/or "Horror films" categories to films that are already in the appropriate " horror films" intersection, are now happening by the hand of logged-out IP {{u|204.68.105.89}}. So clearly ČugaĎ didn't get the message, which was "stop doing this" rather than "log out and then keep doing this". ] (]) 22:02, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::But this was not a resubmission. was to remove a list of ingredients (including propylene glycol) which was sourced to a blog and which the COI editor says is outdated and doesn't reflect current ingredients. Meanwhile, the link you give as an example of "resubmission" was the COI editor requesting the removal of . Both requests involve propylene glycol, but they are clearly separate requests concerning separate content. | |||
| ::We want COI editors to propose changes to talk pages. The fact that this COI editor, apparently frustrated by a lack of responses to their requests went to the to request someone look at their edits, and then went to an active participant of said Wikiproject and requested they look at their requests, is not suspicious or abnormal. And I think it's highly inappropriate how Axad12 argued at length on the talk page that User:Zefr was "cultivated" by the COI editor "to do their bidding". I support other editors in recommending Axad12 take a break from COI issues. ] (]) 00:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'd just like to stress here that I only linked to my post above because Robert McClenon asked for the background to the COI element. I was not trying to re-open that issue or to request that any action be taken on that issue. I have already accepted that there is absolutely no support for the position I adopted there. ] (]) 04:00, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::This doesn't answer my question. The link is to a conversation between ], ], and administrator ]. The links from that conversation show that there is antagonism between Axad12 and Graywalls on the one hand and ] on the other hand. They show that there is discussion of ], but they show no direct evidence of ] editing by any editor. They don't answer who is said to be a paid editor making edit requests, aside from the fact that paid editors are supposed to make edit requests rather than editing directly, so I am still not sure what the issue is. I haven't seen any evidence of abuse, let alone of {{tq|exceptionally serious abuse}} that warranted edit-warring to prevent an RFC. ] (]) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The paid editor is ] who is open and transparent about their COI. The edit request which began this episode was when Inkian Jason ] where they pinged ] about having uploaded a photo of the company's logo and asking if they would be willing to add it to the article. Secondary to that they also asked about the appropriateness of the recently added propylene glycol content. The COI issues centered around whether Inkian Jason "cultivated" Zefr by pinging him to remove the added propylene glycol text after they had ] about the various ingredients used in the ice cream (which included propylene glycol). ] (]) 05:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposal 2: Article Ban of Axad12 from Breyers=== | |||
| == Titus Gold - Civil POV Pushing and Disruptive Editing. Possible Sock Puppetry == | |||
| (Proposal 1 has been lost up in the early postings.) I propose that ] be ] from ] and ] for six months. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as proposer. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. ] (]) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite ], an ] with Zefr, and a ] on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? ] (]) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::The purpose of the counter proposal was simply to indicate that I have only good intentions going forwards and I am happy to demonstrate those intentions upon pain of the strongest possible sanction. Evidently I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking, as I'm aware that eyes will understandably be upon me going forwards. | |||
| *:::As I've said before, I'm a good faith user and I'm amenable to taking instruction when I have erred. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that without being subject to a formal ban. ] (]) 05:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on {{tq|q=y|pain of an indefinite site ban}}. "A rose by any other name" comes to mind here. Your voluntary adherence to the terms of the proposal would be indistinguishable from being compelled into adherence by threat of an indef. If you still want this course of action, fair enough, I just don't think it'll do what you're envisioning. ] (]) 05:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I really don't recommend that, Axad. Sure, take a break from that article if you want to. But it's really easy to forget about a dispute years later, or even for a company to change names and suddenly you're on that article without knowing it. ] (]) 04:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::For clarification, I would be happy to undertake voluntarily any measures that the community may suggest and upon pain of any sanction that the community may suggest. I believe that there is value to undertaking such measures voluntarily because it allows one to demonstrate that one can be trusted. | |||
| *:::Also just a brief note to say that in about an hour and a quarter's time I will have no internet access for the next 12-14 hours. Any lack of response during that period will simply be for that reason and not due to a wilful refusal to communicate. Hopefully I have indicated above that I have been happy to respond to all questions. | |||
| *:::No doubt matters will progress in my absence and I will find out my fate upon my return. ] (]) 05:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' as less stringent than what Axad has proposed above within this section, but still prevents further disruption. ] (]) 06:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| We need to talk about {{U|Titus Gold}}. | |||
| *'''Oppose''' because {{u|Axad12}} seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. ] (]) 08:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. I also oppose Axad12's counter proposal. --] (]) 10:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given Cullen328's comment. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per above. I just don't see a need for such strict measures. ] (]) 16:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposal 3: Article Ban of Axad12 from COIN=== | |||
| Yesterday he moved the page ] to ]. The move was undiscussed, and appears to be tendatious as it is ''clearly'' not an uncontroversial move, the controversy being very much a matter of discussion on ](multiple sections, but, e.g. the arms section: ]), where Titus Gold has thus far been a lone voice in his attempts to remove any link between the feathers and the prince of Wales. This move was therefore ]y and disruptive. | |||
| Clerking at COIN seems to have given ] the idea that everyone whom they don't know is probably a paid editor, and something has given them the idea that they can identify "exceptionally serious abuse" without providing direct evidence. I propose that ] be ] from ] for two months. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as proposer. ] (]) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that {{tq|everyone whom don't know is probably a paid editor}}. The overwhelming majority of my contributions at COIN are simple constructive contributions and the matter described above is highly atypical. ] (]) 04:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' because {{u|Axad12}} seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. ] (]) 08:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. --] (]) 10:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Given Cullen328's comment. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I would prefer it if Axad12's voluntary commitment was to stay away from ] rather than the company article in particular. It is very unhealthy, both for Misplaced Pages and for the particular user, for anything like a third of the edits on any noticeboard to be from any one user. ] (]) 15:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' this is a good idea, and not vindictive. It will do Axad12 some good to get away from the COIN for awhile, and get out there and roam around Misplaced Pages and see where else they can contribute constructively.]] 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==Complaint against ]== | |||
| It is by no means the first disruptive page move, though. So far ''this year'' Titus Gold has moved 113 pages plus their associated talk pages, and this year is not unusual. Very many of these have been reverted, For instance, this one from earlier this month.. Some of the page moves are uncontested, but even then, disruption arises, for instance, where a whole RM is required some time later to put back an unnoticed problematic move.. | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | result = There is no merit to the report against GiantSnowman. There is a rough consensus against, or at the very least no consensus for action toward Footballnerd2007 based on the mentorship proposal put forth and accepted and no further action is needed here. ] ] 02:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| {{Notice|1=See ] below. |heading=This complaint has been withdrawn.}} | |||
| <s> Good Morning, | |||
| I am writing to formally lodge a complaint against ] for repeated violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on personal attacks (]) and casting aspersions (]) during a . | |||
| The theme of contested moves (and many are contested) is usually separation of mention of England alongside Wales, as the editor has clear issues with ] on this point. | |||
| Throughout the interaction, GiantSnowman has engaged in behavior that appears to contravene Misplaced Pages's behavioral guidelines, including but not limited to: | |||
| NPOV behaviour is not limited to page moves, and Titus Gold has tested limits of editor patience, e.g. in this discussion:. A very clear case of ]. | |||
| '''Casting aspersions without evidence:''' | |||
| There have been many informal attempts to address this behaviour. On WikiProject Wales, there is this thread which raised many serious issues, and in which Titus Gold appeared to be engaged: | |||
| * GiantSnowman repeatedly accused me of engaging in disruptive behavior, suggesting ulterior motives without providing any verifiable evidence. | |||
| * For instance, accusations of using ] to generate responses without concrete proof. | |||
| * Statements like “You are a liar and cannot be trusted” and other similar assertions lack civility and violate the principle of ]. | |||
| '''Aggressive tone and unwarranted accusations:''' | |||
| Yet problems persisted, and calls for a topic ban were reiterated: | |||
| * The user's tone throughout the discussion has been hostile, escalating to direct personal attacks: | |||
| * Referring to me as a “liar” multiple times. | |||
| * Suggesting that I have been “deliberately disruptive” without presenting any factual basis. | |||
| '''Violation of ] and ]:''' | |||
| Indeed, a tour through the WikiProject Wales archives has a litany of threads dealing with issues arising from this editor. | |||
| * Misplaced Pages encourages editors to respond constructively to newcomers' efforts. However, GiantSnowman’s behavior has been dismissive and accusatory, discouraging participation and creating a hostile editing environment. | |||
| As an administrator, GiantSnowman is expected to set an example by adhering to Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies and fostering a collaborative environment. However, their actions in this instance fall far short of the standards expected of administrators, which further exacerbates the seriousness of this issue. | |||
| He does not archive his talk page, but there have been many attempts to engage and assist on that page. This snapshot is typical, and has three of the issues that keep arising, being: | |||
| # Undiscussed page moves (despite him saying he will take it into account, he continued to make such moves) | |||
| # Neutrality of articles (and his repeated acting without establishing consensus - in that case in removing a maintenance template) | |||
| # His attempts to remove any mention of “England & Wales” together on Misplaced Pages. | |||
| I understand that discussions can sometimes be contentious, but I believe there is no justification for violating ] or ]. I respectfully request that administrators review the linked discussion and take appropriate action to address this behavior. | |||
| Another talk page snapshot shows examples of other problems: recreating pages that were recently deleted at AfD, the fact that many of his creations have to be taken to AfD, creation of categories that also need addressing, etc. All of these issues arise from a transparent Welsh nationalist POV. | |||
| If any additional information or clarification is needed, I am happy to provide it. My intent is to ensure a respectful and collaborative editing environment for all Misplaced Pages contributors. | |||
| On ] he attempts to relitigate the exact same proposal that was declined just 2 months ago, eliciting the same answers but consuming more editor time. On this occasion, though, he appears to be socking (see below). | |||
| Thank you for your time and consideration. </s> | |||
| He edits disruptively. Just one example: when he created a POVFORK of a page and it was taken to deletion, he attempted to move the page to draft, removing the deletion tag and placing it on another page. See that deletion discussion. , and the other page he attempted to delete, by later replacing the moved template with a proper one: . | |||
| Socking | |||
| ] • ] ⚽ 12:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| In an RFC which was clearly going against his preference, a new user suddenly arrived, ProfBlue12, to support Titus Gold.. This was a brand new user whose first edit was to join WikiProject Wales , which Titus Gold has also joined. They then somehow found and !voted on this RfC. They then went away to do nothing until suddenly, yesterday, they returned to !vote on the relitigated split proposal mentioned above. . I tagged the comment as an SPA, and only after I tagged it did ProfBlue finally make a (single) mainspace edit . Those edits were at 19:29 and 19:51. Titus Gold had been active earlier (14:08) and returned to editting at 20:18. | |||
| :The discussion I raised was at ], now closed. I raised concerns about this editor, who has (in brief) - undertake botched and inappropriate RM closures; re-factored other editor's talk page posts; randomly nominated another user with whom they have never interacted before for RFA; and messing with my user space draft. None of that was the conduct of a new editor here to learn the ropes, and I wanted a second pair of eyes. | |||
| After the !vote on the RFC, I opened a sockpuppet investigation. ]. Owing to the very limited number of edits, technical evidence was merely Possible, maybe leaning Possilikely, and I, despite feeling this passed a clear ] at that stage, was content to let it go, as hopefully a single abberation that would not change the outcome of the RfC. This second !vote, however, is clearly the duck quacking again. | |||
| :In the course of that discussion, it became highly suspect to multiple users that this user has been editing with LLM. They denied using Chat GPT and, when questioned further, refused to answer. That is why I said this user is a liar and cannot be trusted, and I stand by that assertion. ]] 12:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Pinging other editors who were involved in that ANI discussion or have posted concerns/advice on this user's talk page - {{ping|Liz|voorts|Folly Mox|Tiggerjay|Extraordinary Writ|Tarlby|The Bushranger|Thebiguglyalien|Cyberdog958}} - think that is everyone, apologies if not. ]] 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you for your speedy response. Now let other admins add their point of view. ] • ] ⚽ 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Given the closed section above - which was closed for a very good reason - I'd suggest that coming back to this page to complain and using an LLM to do it is a ''spectacularly'' bad idea. The community only has limited patience when dealing with editors who are causing timesinks for other edits, and I suspect that the section above was your limit. ] 12:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. ] • ] ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::] is worth reviewing. It may already be too late for you to withdraw your complaint, but it's probably worth an attempt. --] (]) 12:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ec}}Please, any passing uninvolved admin, block the OP now. Not least for using an LLM to generate a complaint that someone accused them of using ] to generate responses. Enough of our time has been wasted. ] (]) 12:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Again, this is mere conjecture. ] • ] ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Continuing to deny the obvious - especially when Tarlby ran your posts through multiple LLM checkers - is really not helping your case. For me, it shows you are not here in good faith and that you absolutely cannot be trusted. ]] 12:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, it's called people have eyes. Using LLMs this way is highly disrespectful and frankly disruptive. Boomerang block for ] seems appropriate. ] (]) 12:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::<small>(Responding to the ping, invovled)</small> My perspective regarding LLM has been it really doesn't matter (to me) if you're using various technology tools constructively, such as a spell checker or grammar checker might have been viewed two decades ago. ''However, what really matter is how those tools are used and being responsible for how they're used''. This editor has been evasive in their conversations and generally disruptive demonstrating ] behavior by very peculiar / suspicious ] I've only seen in clear LLM cases. Yet, there is no point in bludgeoning to what degree, if any, an LLM is playing here, but because this is a clear example of ] and failure to follow ] despite many attempts to bring them to this users attention. ] ] 17:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::+1 to Phil Bridger. What struck me in the prior thread, over and over again, was how repeatedly evasive he was. "I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT..." "I never made any comment about LLMs in general." "I have no explanation." "Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully." "Which AI detectors are you using?" "The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively." And so on, and so on, and so on. Footballnerd2007 has been given chance after chance to answer plainly, without Wikilawyering or weasel-wording, and has instead stuck to the tactic of deflect, deflect, deflect. I don't know where Footballnerd2007 got the notion that the Fifth Amendment was the law of the land on Misplaced Pages, and that no boomerang can touch him as long as he admits to nothing. Let's just disabuse him of the notion. ] 12:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Retaliatory BS; this should be closed immediately. ] ] 12:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === CBAN proposal === | |||
| I should say, however, that I am not looking for short bans for this editor based on socking, and if admins still feel the evidence is not conclusive of socking, that is not really my concern. I do not want Titus Gold banned from Misplaced Pages, but I do think that the protection of the encyclopaedia demands that we address the core issue: Titus Gold is a civil POV pusher with a non neutral point of view on all articles relating to Wales. | |||
| * I propose a ''']''' for Footballnerd2007, appealable no sooner than six months from now (and then once per year thereafter), alongside a ban on using LLM's which would remain in effect until specifically contested. At the time of writing, Footballnerd2007 has only 142 edits, a ''significant'' number of which are right here at WP:ANI. They are clearly a massive ] time sink. I urged Footballnerd2007 to withdraw this complaint and warned about ] and that clearly didn't land. I think it's time for everyone else to get back to regular editing. --] (]) 12:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*'''Support''', obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. ]] 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. ] • ] ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? ] 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. ]] 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::I'll respond to this in depth later today. ] • ] ⚽ 13:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::I concede that I've been backed into a corner and now I need to do the right thing, stop with the defensive act and own up to my mistakes which I'll do in my statement later this afternoon. ] • ] ⚽ 13:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. ] (]) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::I had my legal head on with the philosophy "defend until you can no more" - I now concede on reflection this is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages and that my actions were not the right way to go and for that I will take full responsibility in my statement. ] • ] ⚽ 13:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::It's too late to withdraw now. You have to take responsibility for your behaviour. ] (]) 13:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*{{ec}}<s>'''Support'''</s> - on top of what's been posted on this thread, FN2007 has ] by archiving without a link to the archive on the fresh talk page, without responding to ]. They also ] to add things they didn't say when closing a RM discussion, and haven't responded ]. These things alongside their LLM use (and subsequent wikilawyering "technically I only said I didn't use ''ChatGPT''" responses), refusal to listen to good advice, and everything else in this topic, I think a community ban would be a good idea. ] ] 13:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC) ''Update'' - striking support for cban, I think footballnerd's recent responses and CNC's offer of mentorship indicate that we may be able to avoid it. ] ] 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. ] • ] ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? ]] 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::I will go back and thank her for that. Because I had been advised that your actions could have violated WP policy and thought it would be a good way to deflect the blame, in heinsight it was absolutely the wrong course of action. I would like to draw a line under this whole sorry situation and move on with the reason that I joined once my statement has been published and the subsequent discussion has concluded. ] • ] ⚽ 14:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:(another {{ec}} To clarify, I don't think Footballnerd is doing anything malicious or deliberately trying to time-waste. I think they are a misguided new bold editor who unfortunately doesn't listen to advice and is stubborn to self-reflect. If this cban goes ahead I urge them to appeal in 6 months with a better understanding of how wikipedia works, with a more cautious editing style and more acceptance of community opinions. ] ] 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::I am not being malicious, there was only one motivation for my actions - wanting to help. | |||
| *:*::My comments on this and the above thread have been ill judged. | |||
| *:*::As for the ban, I'd like to ask that I be spared at this moment in time in view of my above comments and the concession statement that I will be posting when I return home. ] • ] ⚽ 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... ]] 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Because I'm posting from my phone and I'm not at home. When I return to my PC later today I'll make the statement. ] • ] ⚽ 14:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*<del>Support CBAN.</del> Using a chatbot to generate discussion then denying it when called out is already deeply contemptuous. Turning around and filing a chatbot generated revenge report for people not believing your lies about not using a chatbot? Words fail. ] (]) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) {{small|{{ins|edited 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC); see below.}}}} | |||
| *:*:FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. ] • ] ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. ]] 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. ] • ] ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. ]] 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. ] • ] ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::::::Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. ]] 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::::::I admit that I did, I just saw the line of "I didn't use ChatGPT" as an easy 'get out of jail card'. ] • ] ⚽ 14:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::While that might be technically accurate when you answered that you did not use Chat-GPT, you were intentionally being deceptive in your answers multiple times. It might be slightly different if you were asked ''specifically about Chat-GPT'', however multiple times you were ''specifically asked about the broad term of LLM''. Your current claim of, {{tq|never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT}}, falls on deaf ears because it is clear that you were dodging the questions, and indeed intentionally addressed only Chat-GPT for the purpose of deception instead of honesty. ] ] 17:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:::'''Soft-struck''' prior comment because now I see you have admitted to such activity prior to my comment above. ] ] 05:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*:{{a note}} for ], just to inform you there is a ] that you may not have seen. I was about to send generic pings to !voters of this section, but it appears all other editors are aware of this proposal already (or voted afterwards at least). This isn't intended to influence your decision, only to provide you updated information. ] (]) 23:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:*::{{rtp}} Withdrawing support for CBAN in light of ] combined with acceptance of mentorship by {{u|CommunityNotesContributor}} (thanks for the ping: I've been offwiki).{{pb}}{{Ping|Footballnerd2007}} I'm sure the point has got across, but please respect your colleagues here. Using an LLM (of any brand) in discussions is disrespectful of our time; assuming we won't notice is disrespectful of our competence. Please engage with the spirit of other people's communications, rather than with the precise words chosen. Misplaced Pages is very much unlike a courtroom: we're here to work together on a shared project, not to win arguments against each other. I look forward to your earnest acculturation. ] (]) 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *<s>'''Support''' as this behavior is clearly ]. </s>] (]) 15:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' CBAN as this editor has caused a monumental waste of the volunteer time of other editors, which is our most precious commodity. This is an encyclopedia, not a robot debating society. ] (]) 18:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. First choice would be an indefinite block. Despite the user's sudden acts of contrition, I don't trust them. I don't see them as an asset to the project. As for their recent statement that some think is AI-generated, my ''guess'' is it's a mixture, maybe we should call it AI-assisted. However, I wouldn't support an indefinite block if it were just that. What preceded the complaint by GS and their conduct at ANI was egregiously disruptive.--] (]) 18:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - I say give them some rope. There is good discussion going on below, and I don't think anything is gained by blocking an editor who does at times add value. We can always revisit this later - and presumably the action would then be quick and obvious. BTW, I thought we all used AI to some extent - certainly when I misspell words like "certainyl" I then accept the AI in chrome changing the spelling. Or even improving the grammar if I turn on those options. Also ]'s numerous draft articles in his userspace always confounds me. I've asked them before to write these articles in draft-space where there can be a collaborative effort, rather than their userspace where they won't let anyone else edit. ] (]) 00:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Haven't voted in this proposal yet, am abstaining for now per trying to avoid advocacy as potential mentor. The two points I will however question is: would a CBAN solve these issues or postpone them until a later date? Would a 1–2 month mentorship more likely bring about the results of reform or failure much sooner? If we want to talk about ] as we have do so, it might be worth ] the time wasted in not mentoring a newish editor into the folds of the encyclopedia. ] (]) 00:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Nfitz - that is a nonsense, editors can and do edit my user drafts whenever they want. My issue was with them moving one into mainspace. ]] 16:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose:''' CommunityNotesContributor has offered to mentor him, and the mentoring conditions have been accepted. Let's see what comes of that, and we can always revisit the subject of a ban after CNC reports back. ] 04:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strong oppose''' - A mentor has been provided. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support mentorship''' offered below by CNC, but I still have significant concerns, which I expressed after FBN's response below. ] ] 18:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' as too soon. An alternative for mentoring was proffered instead.]] 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===MENTOR proposal=== | |||
| I therefore '''propose an indefinite community topic ban be imposed on Titus Gold from articles relating to Wales, broadly construed.''' Should the community agree, he would be in a position to appeal such a ban in 6 months, but would be required to address the problematic behaviour. | |||
| {{quote|] commitments to uphold by ] for a suggested one–two month period. Mentor: ]. | |||
| # Abide by all policies and guidelines and ] to advise given to you by other editors. | |||
| A second ban might also be considered from conducting undiscussed page moves. ] (]) 13:53, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| # No page moves (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval from mentor. | |||
| :I was under the impression that bold moves are permitted by Misplaced Pages. | |||
| # No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it. | |||
| :The feathers are referred to as the "Three feathers" usually in Welsh media and recent research by myself have found reliable sources showing that the feathers are technically those of the heir apparent, not the Prince of Wales, although in my edits I recognise the association of course. | |||
| # No more dishonesty, being evasive, or using AI of any kind in discussions due to laziness. | |||
| :The Water split proposal is not the same as the page move proposal previous to that. They are different proposals although albeit similar in some ways. | |||
| # Avoid commenting on all admin noticeboards (unless summoned). If there is a problem, seek advise from mentor. | |||
| :I'm not sure why you're referring to another user. Are you suggesting this is another account made by myself? If so, I can assure you that is not the case although I don't know how I could prove that. | |||
| # Avoid reverting other editors (either manually, part or in full), unless obvious vandalism. | |||
| :With regards to claims of civil POV pushing or POV because I have made edits and contributions of differing viewpoints. It's unclear what is being suggested here. I do not at all dispute the fact that I have made a number of edits separating England and Wales. This is merely updating Misplaced Pages following the extensive change in the structure of the United Kingdom over the last 25 years with devolution in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Note that I have not at all changed pages such as e.g ], ] etc. because there is clear evidence to support these pages staying as they are. Justice is not devolved in Wales and the Green party remains an England and Wales party. | |||
| }} | |||
| :I'm happy to learn or improve as an editor and acknowledge that I have made occasional mistakes. ] (]) 14:18, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I tried to add this, but editors had replied so, adding as a new comment: Titus Gold also edit wars continually for his POV, without waiting for any consensus. Just one example, these are all reverts to re-assert something he wants in the article: , , , .] (]) 14:30, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::You'd think someone with two blocks for edit warring on their account already would know about edit warring by now, seems like a ] and the rules don't apply to me because I'm right attitude. ] ] 14:43, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support a topic ban''' as per the nominators proposal. I come here very reluctantly because my strong preference is to welcome all sincerely felt views when appropriately supported by RS. In this case however, I have felt unable to continue contributing to many pages dealing with Wales or Welsh issues because of the persistent strong nationalistic editing by Titus Gold. Wales is my home and I am personally a strong supporter of matters Welsh, but I try my best to steer a POV free line in my editing. Many of the edits by this editor do poor service to the country and misrepresent the wide view. Whether this is intentional or unintentional I cannot guess, but the outcome is undoubtedly detrimental to Misplaced Pages. <span style="background-color:lightblue">''''' ] '''''</span><span style="background-color:lightblue"> <sup>''] Talk ''</sup> </span> 14:25, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support admin intervention'''. I too come here very reluctantly, as I am concerned about the non-neutral point of view of Titus Gold, and having to closely read all of their edits for PoV is in effect disruptive. I don't see that a ban is necessary, but some form of administrator intervention must be. Perhaps Titus Gold should take a voluntary break to consider whether they do have a nationalistic bias, and if so, what they should do about it in relation to editing on Misplaced Pages. ] ] 14:48, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support topic ban per proposer'''...Oh please yes. TG has wreaked havoc in Wales-related articles for over a year now. The proposer has outlined some issues. Moving articles and creating ] and then cut and pasting text to support what he's done is one of his techniques. (Look at the list of his articles he's created and the deletions) To be honest, I'm not so bothered about the fact that he's pushing a POV (nationalist) in dubious ways ]ly - it's that he does it in vast volumes at vast speed, with ] thrown in. It's just exhausting trying to keep up with his tricks. I was going to pull together some diffs, but I think I need a good night's sleep before attempting. ] (]) 16:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Footnote: I'm wondering if theres some sort of CIR issue involved. A minute ago he's just made which is smack in the middle of the issue that prompted the opening of this thread. ], just doesn't get it or the middle finger. I don't know which. ] (]) 16:35, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:And he's also just gone 5RR so I've made a report to AN3 . ] (]) 16:58, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support topic ban''' This is a quite clearcut ] issue. TitusGold seems to edit exclusively to pushing a certain POV around Wales- and UK-related topics. It is worth looking through their to get a picture of this. This CPUSH is undertaken ]ly, across a wide range of articles, and many articles are created simple to ] existing ones.{{pb}}To my memory I first encountered TitusGold at ] in May 2022, which followed a of bold and in many cases quite blatantly POV edits (eg. removing main and see also links that mentioned the United Kingdom). This conversation stretched across multiple subsequent sections in that archive, and resulted in all their edits . Despite this, they continued with the same sorts of edits, and even them in. It's hard to go diff by diff, but the shows how overwhelming and relentless this was. In July 2022 I brought up some of the repeatedly edit warred parts on ], which had not gained consensus in the previous discussion. In August 2022 TitusGold raised exactly the same things again in a new section ]. Having not obtained consensus there, they raised in ''again'' in December 2022 at ]. The same things were then raised, ''again'', in April 2023 at ]. Each time it was raised at if it was a new issue.{{pb}}Another article I interacted with them on was ]. This was created by them . This was moved on 15 April, with many issues being pointed out at ]. After a period of inactivity and the issues with the page not being fixed, TitusGold unilaterially on 8 May. In both of these cases the clear pattern can be seen of pushing a POV, and then when there is pushback and it is clear there is no consensus, simply waiting and then trying again.{{pb}}Their statement in this report of "I was under the impression that bold moves are permitted by Misplaced Pages" is entirely disingenuous: they are perfectly aware their moves and edits are controversial. It is, as with the repeated Talk:Wales posts, a pattern being deliberately presented as discrete and unrelated acts. It is also concerning how these pushes are often hidden behind innocuous edit summaries. Take the most recent move, the Prince of Wales's feathers article Sirfurboy opened this discussion with. The change of that article name was slid into the Wales article with the edit summary .{{pb}}If it was just the POV that would be one thing, but the clear lack of care for community consensus or any sort of collaboration has made all these edits utterly disruptive. After responding to this AN/I report, TitusGold has gone editing the page the prompted the opening of this AN/I. with multiple users, ], and an open AN/I report are all apparently not enough to bring about even a moment of pause. A topic ban is needed. ] (]) 16:17, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:To clarify topic ban scope, I would support UK-related articles, broadly constructed. The problem extends beyond Wales-related articles, although they are the clearest example. ] (]) 01:07, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * {{ec}} '''Support admin intervention''', it was only a matter of time before this was raised at ANI. A very large amount of time has been spent by several editors, including me, unpicking and repairing (and sometimes deleting/redirecting) TG's edits. TG has largely been civil since I've come across them last year and promises to take advice on board, but the problematic behaviour usually continues i.e. constant moving and renaming of pages, often whilst they are under discussion, as well as creation of content forks, POV "Controversy about..." and "Campaign for... " articles and large scale duplication/copying of info across Wales topics. Depending on the outcome of the sockpuppetry allegations, maybe some sort of break from editing Wales topics would be beneficial for reflection. ] (]) 16:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * Strongly '''Support topic ban''', as per nominator. As a follower of Welsh-related pages, I have watched TG’s activities with some dismay for some time, and have previously called for some community sanction. They edit with a strong POV and are not interested in Neutrality. They are incapable of/unwilling to understand/take on board other views. They are incapable of collaborative editing, although they pay lip service to it. Sock puppetry would not surprise me at all. In short, their passion to promote a Welsh nationalist POV far, far outweighs their wish to build a neutral encyclopaedia. ] (]) 17:08, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| '''Note''' I've just blocked Titus Gold for one week purely for the current active edit warring they're performing on the ] article. This is purely for that specific edit warring, and does not prevent further sanctions from the outcome of this thread, though they will be no longer able to participate in it directly (not that they were showing any inclination to do so really anyway.) ] ] 17:43, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support topic ban''' and suggest that it be extended to cover pages broadly related to devolution and nationalist movements in other UK nations as well as Wales. I've observed similar civil POV pushing behaviour on pages such as ], ], ] to mention but a few. ] (]) 20:04, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support topic ban''' on Wales broadly construed. Unlike many of the editors commenting above, I have no special knowledge or interest in the Wales topic area, but the ongoing disruption must stop. Titus Gold should be warned that any tendentious editing related to Scotland or Ireland will lead quite quickly to additional sanctions. ] (]) 20:13, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *I don't have an opinion on whether a topic ban is justified, but I wasn't impressed with their editing in ]. I do get the feeling that this editor has a pro-Wales POV and sometimes it interferes with editing according to policies and guidelines. (] · ]) ''']''' 23:42, 2 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Reluctant Support topic ban''' on Wales broadly construed, per ] and others - which is a pity as I think this is the only area he is interested in editing. He seems to be getting worse too. ] (]) 01:18, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support topic ban''' extended to cover pages broadly related to devolution and nationalist movements in other UK nations as well as Wales as suggested by ].] (]) 07:51, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Comment''' - Someone has today left some rather nasty porn on my Wikidata talk page. The user, created today, is . I have reported on the admin noticeboard there. However, this has never happened before, and the user's only edit is on my page. I rarely upload there, so I doubt this is random. The timing is such that I would like to know whether a sock puppet investigation is possible across Wikis. Thanks. ] (]) 17:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{U|Sirfurboy}} - Sorry about that and hope it wasn’t too unpleasant. The timing makes it unlikely to be coincidental and with luck some cross-Wiki investigation will be possible. ] (]) 17:41, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{ping|Sirfurboy}} I wouldn't jump to conclusions. If there is a connection with this thread (and there may not be a connection) I know from previous experience that LTAs target participants here for reasons best known to themselves. ] (]) 20:14, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Ah, yes.. True. OK so probably no need for an investigation. Sorry. ] (]) 21:21, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Absolutely no need for an apology. And personally I doubt it is coincidental. But, unpleasant though it was, it is entirely secondary to the key issue that you have raised. And for which there is complete consensus that action is needed. ] (]) 21:53, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|Sirfurboy}} Funnily enough - I had the exact same thing with a brand new user on my Wikinews talk page a couple weeks ago despite not editing there for months. I also haven't been involved in this discussion, so I don't think it's about this. ''']''' (] | ]) 04:15, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Admins at wikidata also suggested it happened before too. Odd timing, but happy to accept there is no connection with this case. No need to investigate that further nor take it into account. This case stands on its own. Thanks. ] (]) 11:21, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| '''Request for Uninvolved Admin''' I don't want this to get archived off and forgotten about. Do any uninvolved admins want to take a look at this and see about actioning if needed and closing this? I think it's had time enough and Titus Gold had plenty of opportunity to respond prior to their continuing editing warring and temp block. They were also given the opportunity to respond on their talk page, but instead blanked everything so clearly have no intention or interest in doing so. ] ] 13:03, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| This goes a bit beyond original requirements, and the last two are effectively preventative measures to try and avoid problems arising. An editor involved exclusively on footy articles has limited to no need for involvement in admin noticeboards. ] (]) 17:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''Comment from Titus Gold's Talkpage''' - Since they are unable to participate directly, they made a post to their talkpage that I'm copying (with their permission and request) directly below. | |||
| :@Canterbury Tail I don't think this ANI has properly considered the evidence at all. I haven't had enough of an opportunity to respond and in the meantime other editors have responded without me being given a chance to answer any concerns. I think the ANI should be re-started with me being able to respond. | |||
| :I agree to those principles and am grateful for the mentorship opportunity! ] • ] ⚽ 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :In hindsight I can see that I may have drifted into edit warring on the Prince of Wales article. Edits I made were generally different and cited in an attempt to meet the comments/suggestions made by the reverting user. I would point to a paragraph I wrote about Owain Gwynedd which was removed without the source having even been read. At the time, it seemed as though some editors were pushing a POV and and reverting my edits without explanation. In hindsight, I could have gone about this in a better and more patient manner and so I apologise for that. | |||
| ::Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. ]] 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. ] (]) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. ]] 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. ] (]) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No bad - let me rephrase if that helps. I am not opposed to mentoring in place of the current CBAN proposal. ]] 18:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ====Discussion==== | |||
| :With regards to Sirfurboy's incident, I can assure you that was nothing to do with me. | |||
| *Going to chime in here as someone involved in footy related articles. I've reviewed some of the editors contributions, and despite all the issues raised in this topic that are very problematic, the user has seemingly made good contributions to football related articles. I otherwise don't doubt that the user previously edited with an IP (I'm pretty sure which IP this is based on edit histories, but assuming good faith it's not part of this topic and not relevant either so won't bother referencing). I only state this to deflect from suggestions that this editor ''could be'' a sockpuppet, as I strongly don't believe to be the case, instead I suspect about 18 months of low-key editing experience up until now. It's therefore a great shame FN2007 went down this road, even if appears to have now retracted the original complaint. Hopefully they can take on board the requests to avoid controversial edits, especially at other user talkpages and such. I'd like to think this is a case of a user trying to run before they can walk, and if they now pace themselves it could work out in the long-term, but alas the damage has also already been done here it seems. Also as a personal suggestion to the editor, if you're here for football articles, then you should be aiming to stay well away from admin noticeboards as they will rarely ever concern you. Generally there ''should be'' relatively low controversy editing football articles, even if most remain contentious topics as BLP. So if football is your editing remit here, you're doing it very badly by ending up at a noticeboard, equally so by opening this topic, even with your good contributions. I am therefore reluctantly offering to act as a ], if the user can commit to the general policy and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, in the hope of not losing a participant in the under edited area of women's football articles. ] (]) 14:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. ] • ] ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. ] (]) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per ], as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. ] (]) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::That's definitely OK with me. ] • ] ⚽ 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Mainly just everyone else at this point it seems. ] (]) 14:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Should I ping? ] (]) 14:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I gladly and humbly '''accept''' your mentorship offer. ] • ] ⚽ 14:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Just to be clear, this would be a ] offer, nothing more than that. Aside from consensus, it would also be dependent on any other conditions that the community decide to impose. ] (]) 14:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Completely not related but wanting to chime in. | |||
| :Generally, some of the accusations of civil pov pushing are unfair and lack clear and definitive evidence. I have fully acknowledged that I have made some attempts to separate England and Wales joined pages because they were out of date and had not caught up with 2023 levels of devolution etc. but have left other pages as they are e.g England and Wales, because justice is not devolved. By now, virtually all the major updates that were needed on Wales related articles have been done. (The final split proposal being the England & Wales water related articles. I will of course respect the outcome of the split proposal.) | |||
| :I admit that at first, as a newbie edit, I was kind of surprised on how @] handled things, and I can understand the perspective that it seems to be in violation of assume good faith, but I’d like to point out that as someone who was in the same situation as @], it’s not really in violation of Assume Good Faith. He just is very organized but tries his best to help others. Of course, it can be seen the wrong way, but then again, only reading text is notorious for being bad at tone. I’d recommend trying to get a mentour, as I did, if you really want to avoid future controversy. I’d recommend FootballNerd to take up CNC’s mentorship offer. ] (]) 14:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Furthermore, no one is perfect. Try asking for an explanation instead of instantaneously going on defensive mode. That will always help. Be humble. ] (]) 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have taken up the mentorship offer. ] • ] ⚽ 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). ] (]) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. ]] 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Agreed, @] maybe hold off on pings for now. ] (]) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Alright, sounds good. ] (]) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Per ] I think pings are appropriate now. ] (]) 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as {{u|CommunityNotesContributor}} has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor. ] (]) 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. ] (]) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm now home and will start drafting after lunch. I'll send it you before posting it here. ] • ] ⚽ 14:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I see a list of conditions but not an explicit proposal for mentoring. Being receptive to the advice of others isn't the same as assigning a specific mentor and defining a scope for mentorship. Can the proposal be clarified, or else renamed? ] (]) 18:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed ]. ] (]) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks for . I did not read the discussion until after you , so it was not evident that a specific mentor had been named. ] (]) 02:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Response from Footballnerd2007=== | |||
| :I would urge editors to reconsider a topic ban as that would be massively disproportional. I'm happy to make further changes to my editing style and look forward to working with other users in future. | |||
| Good Afternoon all, | |||
| Can I start by making something unequivocally clear: my behaviour over the past 24 hours has been unacceptable and has resembled that of a lawyer acting in court, trying to defend my actions in an overly strategic way. This course of action was wrong, and I apologise for it. | |||
| :Thanks for your time Titus Gold (talk) 15:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I would like to add that I've also created many good quality articles and made significant high quality additions to articles and I think that this should be taken into consideration as well. Thank you @Canterbury Tail Titus Gold (talk) 15:59, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't think this begins to deal with all the issues raised here. I do accept that you had nothing to do with the wikidata talk page incident I mentioned above. I had not considered that trolls were probably watching this page and that is why they would have targetted me, so again, happy for that incident to be completely ignored and forgotten. The civil POV pushing concerns have not come from nowhere. These have been expressed by many editors in many contexts over a very long period. Is a topic ban disproportionate? It has been mooted before (in the evidence above and no doubt elsewhere) and any kind of ban is there for the protection of the encyclopaedia, and is not punitive. You edit pages in a rush and move on, leaving editors in your wake to clean up. As I said in my first post, an indefinite topic ban need not be forever. It can be appealed in 6 months, but the appeal will require you, the editor, to address the reasons for it. If you were to edit in other areas of the encyclopaedia and demonstrate you can do so in a collegial manner and with a neutral point of view, and can see why the torrent of bold page moves, the copy and pasting of content from page to page, the continual re-assertion of challenged content etc., have caused these issues, and that you have changed as a result, then I will be among the first to support lifting of the topic ban at that point. I promise you that much. ] (]) 19:39, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :"I have fully acknowledged that I have made some attempts to separate England and Wales joined pages because they were out of date and had not caught up with 2023 levels of devolution etc" is breathtakingly specious. It's so obviously wrong from at a slight glance at the article creation list that it's hard not to see it as deliberate dishonesty. ] is a redundant fork that has absolutely nothing to do with 2023 levels of devolution, and is built on the premise that readers cannot use table sorting buttons. ] has nothing to do with 2023 levels of devolution, and includes the usual coatrack at the end. The ] represents the devolution needs of large mountains, and the ] were glad to have received political autonomy from other flora. There's a series of Wales-related nobility articles I can't look at as they're deleted, but presumably they refer to nobility established by the Government of Wales Act? The list goes on. "In hindsight I can see that I may have drifted into edit warring" is similarly remarkable given the history, and a prime example of how patterns are excused as discrete and unrelated acts.{{pb}}In fact, this is so non-discrete that this whole message is has been seen before. See in July 2022. Compare then, "{{green|I don't fancy an unnecessary "ban" and I'm here to co-operate and listen if you want to make any suggestions. I don't think there are any more pages that need creating anyway and my "customary energy" has been used up!}}", and now "{{green|By now, virtually all the major updates that were needed on Wales related articles have been done...I would urge editors to reconsider a topic ban as that would be massively disproportional. I'm happy to make further changes to my editing style and look forward to working with other users in future.}}". This is a long-term and highly repetitive pattern that many many previous discussions have not changed, and that is why a preventative topic-ban is needed. ] (]) 02:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::'''Comment''' I think {{U|Sirfurboy}} has given an entirely reasonable response to Titus Gold's rather vague reaction to the serious criticisms about their editing. I would like to know what Titus Gold means by "happy to make further changes to my editing style'. Right now, having them blocked from editing has come as a huge if temporary relief from their edits which is in itself significant. I'm keeping a watching brief on this, but am not optimistic of any change. ] ] 10:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm with Sirfurboy and CMD on this. And I entirely understand Tony Holkham's expression of "huge if temporary relief from their edits". It does rather feel that the year-long POV-tornado has just passed through ... at the moment anyway. Hopefully, the unanimity of editors' view of TG will result in some speedy admin action to conclude this, as requested by Canterbury Tail above. ] (]) 11:24, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Another response from Titus Gold. Reposted from their talk page. | |||
| :Thanks. Here is a response to later comments; | |||
| :With regards to the quote, some of the responses at the time seemed to be about me making more radical changes to the Wales article and my own inadequacies in following processes which were unfamiliar to me at the time. Since then I did come across more articles that needed an update. By now, I'm quite confident that the major changes that were required have been done. I'm not aware of any major further changes needed. | |||
| :I know I have previously said this but I think I should be clear that yes I have made an attempt to separate England and Wales as this is an out of date grouping under most circumstances based on the Laws in Wales Act 1536. However, when there is reasonable justification for this grouping e.g in justice, I have not altered e.g England and Wales and in others like Green Party of England and Wales, they have been appropriately left as they are. I have also made contrasting improvements to contrasting articles, e.g both Unionism in Wales and also added arguments against and for e.g Welsh independence. | |||
| :Of course I agree that I am focused on Wales related articles, and there is nothing wrong with that and some of the evidence presented about a POV is a little unfair. In hindsight I agree that I have been impatient more than anything else and made bold moves without waiting for response. I have recently began using the RM which I was previously unaware of. When it comes to RMs I have accepted the outcome when a clear consensus is made. In fact I am often proactive in making the change against my own preference. I have also attempted to address templates and points of improvements brought about by other users. | |||
| :'''My proposals for self-improvement''' | |||
| :With reflection, I need to be much more patient and make use of discussion processes more. | |||
| :I have only more recently become aware of Requested Moves. I'm prepared to use this more frequently and avoid bold moves if there is an indication of controversy. I accept that some previous bold moves could have used the RM process and I have previously been impatient. | |||
| :I'll avoid edit warring by being more patient with reverts to my edits. I'll properly review the reverts and go to comment section as I maybe rushed past these a little recently (which I have apologised for). I apologise for my frustrations at what seemed like unexplained removals recently. | |||
| :The Water in Wales and England is genuinely the last major split that I wanted to propose, after trawling through many Wales related articles. I will of course accept the result of the discussion either way. | |||
| :May I suggest a fairer discipline measure such as extending the general block to two weeks, rather than a 6 month topic ban which seems disproportionate. I will consider a refreshed approach to my editing following such a period. | |||
| :Generally speaking, my plans were on improvement to Welsh TV and cinema and addressing any article requests on WikiProject Wales but became sidetracked by a merging of an article I had created. | |||
| :Thanks for your patience | |||
| :@Sirfurboy @Canterbury Tail Titus Gold (talk) 20:12, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::So TG says "I have only more recently become aware of Requested Moves". Yet he's participated in requested moves before now - see (when his account was called TG11TG15). What's interesting about his participation in that RM was that there was the very characteristic TG manoeuvre of moving the article while the Requested Move was ongoing and when challenged that that to do so was a breach of the RM process innocently explains it away with {{tq|Yes I know. This is merely a temporary change. As it stands, it seems the title "Senedd" is the most strongly supported}}. ] (]) 21:40, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::('''Additional comment crossposted''') ] ] 12:44, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@Canterbury Tail @DeCausa Additional comment. | |||
| ::::I didn't recall that comment on an RM three years ago (I didn't actually start any RMs at that time) and must've been inexperienced with the rules. I wasn't using Misplaced Pages much at all back then and didn't really start as a regular user until early 2022 I think. I only realised they were an option when Sirfurboy (I think) mentioned them recently. | |||
| ::::I've only recently began using the RM system but I will commit to using them more, particularly in potentially controversial moves. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 23:36, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You may not have recalled that RM you were involved in in 2020, but what about the one you started in November 2022 regarding renaming the Snowdon article?. Surely you remember that, yet that was before my comment to you in March about using RMs. In any case you continued to make bold page moves after that comment on your talk page, and by my count, 10 of your bold page moves were reverted from late March until the one that kicked off this thread. And to be clear, bold page moves are just one of the many issues, which come down to an issue with a lack of neutral point of view. Another example (of so many) is ], which is itself a POVfork, you began with the less than neutral {{tq|The Welsh crown jewels refer to the royal relics of the Kingdom of Gwynedd that were stolen by King Edward I of England following the murder of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd}}. {{U|Ghmyrtle}} twice attempted to make the language more neutral in that article, and , but some of it still found its way back in there. POV is the issue. The RM issue is a symptom. ] (]) 17:49, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| '''Support topic ban''' This discussion already resembles the fog that I have come to associate with Titus Gold’s editing, so I hope an admin will do something about this ANI soon. Titus Gold's latest responses, as previous ones, are entirely consistent with their wordy and adversarial editing style we see on articles and talk pages (] being a prime recent example). This style of editing, with its often lack of nPoV, is in my view disruptive, so I am coming off the fence and advocating a full topic ban of all Wales-related articles. Their "proposals for self-improvement" are anything but, and even include an attempt to negotiate the length of the block. ] ] 13:25, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :'''(Additional comment crossposted from Talk:Titus Gold)''' | |||
| :@Canterbury Tail @Tony Holkham | |||
| :I am willing to change my approach and use RMs and discussions more. I don't know what else I can say to show this. | |||
| :What would you like me to do? | |||
| :Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 14:59, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :: (response from Tony Holkham) | |||
| ::I'm afraid it's not up to me, as I didn't open the ANI, which has to be dealt with by an admin. All I can say for now is that I'm pleased you are aware of the difficulties other editors perceive they are having with you. I hope they can be resolved to allow you to continue to contribute. | |||
| :] ] 15:28, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| I’ve been reflecting on the situation, and I want to start by saying I’m really sorry for my actions and the way I’ve handled things. I know I messed up, and I feel it's important to acknowledge that. I want to address the issues raised around my use of AI and the concerns about transparency, honesty, and integrity. | |||
| '''Support topic ban''' As others have said, this is not confined to RMs and forks. For example, Titus Gold injected Wales into our ] article in at best a breach of ] and ], using ] sources and misrepresenting ] sources.{{pb}}Long version: the place of the last battle is unknown and as the ancient historians only describe the Romans marching from Anglesey to fight the revolt and an advance party entering London, there are many theories. Titus Gold made our article's first one that the Romans defeated her in north-east Wales, taken from '']'' and other nineteenth-century ] works by ]. Titus Gold cited modern scholar Marta Vandrei as supporting this theory, but her ''Queen Boudica and Historical Culture in Britain'' not only doesn't support Morien's theory and isn't even about whether the representations she studies are true, but also describes Morien's work at length and with some amusement as a "sensationalist view of Welsh history", "picturesque" and "conjecture", and discusses how "Boudica was a singularly useful figure for Morien".{{pb}}It takes time to unpick such edits and makes me fearful about whatever other articles they've edited. ] (]) 17:34, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| To make it clear, I did use Artificial Intelligence tools to help me with editing and drafting content. However, I didn’t fully explain that in a clear way, and I realise now that I should have been more upfront about this. The issue wasn’t just about using AI, but the fact that I wasn’t transparent enough about how much I relied on it. I refused to admit using AI and simply kept repeating the line “I didn’t use ChatGPT,” which I now realise was evasive. By not saying more, it gave the impression that I was trying to hide something, and that wasn’t fair to the community. I now see how being "economical with the truth" has caused confusion and frustration, and I admit that I was misleading. | |||
| == User:Elelch == | |||
| The issue raised by User:GiantSnowman about me didn’t just focus on the use of AI but also on the way I was interacting with others. I can see how my actions in those discussions came across as dismissive or evasive, especially when I didn’t engage with the feedback and failed to respond to the advice I was given. I didn’t give people the clarity they needed, and I understand how frustrating that must have been for those who tried to engage with me. I admit I attempted to “give them the run around.” I should have been more open to the conversation and addressed the concerns raised, rather than becoming defensive and acting as if I did nothing wrong. This is not an attempt to justify it, but I want to admit that the reason I used AI was mainly due to laziness and an attempt to sound more knowledgeable in order to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy. | |||
| I also want to address how I behaved today. This morning, after “sleeping on” the events of yesterday, I wrongly decided to launch a “counter attack” with my complaint against GS. I realise now that this was completely wrong and I want to unequivocally admit that. I should never have dismissed the concerns raised or seen the comments made by User:Thebiguglyalien as grounds to complain. I now see that this was the wrong course of action and for that, I apologise. | |||
| I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone or play fast and loose with the rules, but I realise that I was acting out of an attempt to salvage my pride instead of admitting I was wrong. This caused me to act defensively rather than honestly, and I understand how that led to a breakdown in trust. I take full responsibility for that. I never meant to cause confusion or frustration, but I can see how I did. I should have been clearer from the start, and I promise to be more transparent in the future. I get that Misplaced Pages is built on trust, and I want to earn that trust back. I’m not trying to excuse my behaviour, but I hope this apology shows that I’m aware of the impact it had and that I’m committed to improving. I pledge that I won’t use AI for WP editing in the future. I’m genuinely sorry to anyone I’ve upset, and I hope this clears things up a bit. | |||
| {{userlinks|Elelch}} is a ] engaged in blatant ] behavior, obviously ]. They edit only a limited number of Peru-related articles. | |||
| ] • ] ⚽ 16:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| occurred on the ] article where they attempted to place a ] on the guerrilla group to describe them as a "terrorist organization" (despite the controversial background of the group, this is inappropriate amongst many groups on Misplaced Pages that may be described as "terrorist organizations"). ]s to place the information back, though they were reverted by a different user. . | |||
| :Thank you for this. ]] 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::You're welcome, I'd really like to put this situation behind us and move on. ] • ] ⚽ 17:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, if that was written without AI tools (GPTzero still says it was 100% written by AI, but it looks a lot more "human" to me than your previous efforts) then you can at least write without them. ] (]) 17:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::To be fair, @], I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... ] (]) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm not surprised. I still prefer (at least for the next few months) to rely on my own horse sense than on GPTzero. ] (]) 09:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Same. I don't find GPTzero and pals particularly useful benchmarks. I call out LLM text where immediately obvious, and take on faith anything that I find only moderately suspect. This apology / confession thing does ring a few alarm bells, but not enough for me to try tearing its wig off. Hopefully we'll gain a constructive contributor after all this. ] (]) 12:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{U|Nfitz}}, please quote or diff one such "writing" so I can try it myself. (And ping me, please.) ]] 10:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It was a bit short, ], but . ] (]) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Well there's something very puzzling going on here. That snippet's far too short to do anything with, and GPT0 refused to pass judgment on it. So I tried something longer of Phil B.'s ({{tq|{{small|I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor.}}}}) and it came back "99% human". ]] 18:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Well, I suppose it's better to be 99% human than 0%. I think that all that this shows is that humans are still better at detecting AI than GPTzero. ] (]) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :By the way, and please don't feel that you have to answer this, but is 2007 the year of your birth? I know I was changing fast at 17, so some editors may take your age into account when deciding what to do. ] (]) 17:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from ]. ] • ] ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well geez now I'm curious what overlaps with Wikilawyering. ] (]) 13:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies. ] • ] ⚽ 14:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I appreciate the maturity in acknowledging your errors. I’d like to clarify this as it’s something I avoided mentioning. | |||
| :The use of AI is not prohibited but heavily frowned upon. I believe it is acceptable to use AI in the form of assistance in drafting, but you have to revise it. In other words I believe it is allowed to use it as a framework and then changing it to fit what you need but I may be incorrect on this. Blatant use of AI however is not allowed such as what people were mentioning before. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :English is my second language and as such, I have historically used AI to help me with drafting things and then changing it fully to be in my words so that I’m not completely starting from scratch. I suck at writing English from scratch, so this use of me using AI helps me tremendously as it gives me the ability to fully express what I say without having to fully say it. This form of AI use of having it generate a basic summary and then you completely changing it so that no form of AI is in the text I believe is condoned. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :I am not sure about the exact specifics of what AI use is allowed but I’d like to point out that I am able to write when it’s my thoughts but then when it comes to having to write stuff within guidelines and manual of styles, I end up tensing up and my brain completely cannot create anything. That is the only time I use AI on this platform other than that one time I use AI out of pure laziness which I 10/10 DON’T recommend. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :I am not sure if this above is correct so I would appreciate if someone here especially @] clarified if this is allowed or not. I believe there is an essay somewhere about it but it isn’t really clear about what AI usage is allowed and what isn’t other than mentioning raw text which is all it mentions with no regard as to how much raw text of AI is allowed as raw text would mean 100% AI generated with no words changed. | |||
| :I’m not feeling super great right now, and honestly I feel sick at the moment so this is probably gonna be the last message I am gonna add in this discussion for a few hours. | |||
| :<br> | |||
| :Cheers,<br> | |||
| :] (]) 19:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::You are looking for ]. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. ]] 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I was about to begin a reply with "]",{{dummy ref|TOMATS}} but it looks like that month-ago discussion has not yet been closed or archived. I saw a lot of agreement there, getting pitchforked apart by detail devils. A well read closure should help move us forward with the word­smithing. ] (]) 12:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Courtesy pings to increase discussion as the following pings all commented in the sections prior. | |||
| :@] | |||
| :@] | |||
| :@] | |||
| :@] | |||
| :{{ping|Black Kite}} | |||
| :{{ping|Bugghost}} | |||
| :{{ping| isaacl}} | |||
| :{{ping| CommunityNotesContributor}} | |||
| :{{ping| Randy Kryn}} | |||
| :{{ping|Bbb23}} | |||
| :{{ping| Cullen328}} | |||
| :{{ping| Simonm223}} | |||
| :{{ping|Folly Mox}} | |||
| :{{ping| Bgsu98}} | |||
| :{{ping|Yamla}} | |||
| :Sorry for the delay CNC. | |||
| :Cheers, <br> ] (]) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. ] (]) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please don't send mass ping ] to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. ] (]) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Seconding Isaacl - these pings were unecessary. Editors who wanted to follow this discussion would have subscribed. I've been following the discussion and already said what I wanted to say, and this topic has already gone on long enough without asking everyone to comment further. ] ] 07:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My personal opinion is that LLM content is not able to be brought into compliance with Misplaced Pages copyright restrictions and is highly disrespectful of others in article talk. As such I don't believe there is any place for LLMs and other chatbots in Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 12:12, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Since we're here (at the most visible venue): ] (2023) concludes inconclusively. {{Slink|Special:Permalink/1265594360|Copyright of LLM output}} (December 2024) seems to indicate potential CC-BY-SA compliance varies by which giant tech behemoth's proprietary AI implementation is used. Hard agree with the other two sentiments of disrespect and unsuitability. ] (]) 12:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That's interesting. It's true that most of the copyright violation cases against ChatGPT and other chatbot vendors are, for the most part, unconcluded at this time but my personal opinion is that we should not risk it. ] (]) 12:42, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Yes, of course, a very good statement of contrition and hope for future editing (hopefully not all AI). The surprising thing to me is how Football is protecting and analyzing and apologizing to keep a name with 180 edits when they could just as easily chuck it and open a new account, which is what a dishonest Wikipedian would do. Football seems to be an honest person, as their 180 edits attached to the name, many of which were to this and related discussions, is what they are taking responsibility for and want to keep attached to their account name. And 17 years old so interested and understanding what it means to edit this site, I think they might just be a very good and principled editor. ] (]) 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' the last change mentorship that has been offered by CNC, as it is the best step forward. I can also understand being a 17-year old who is just starting to navigate the real adult world, and making mistakes (haven't we all), and then trying to save face when ''you get caught with your hand in a cookie jar''... With that said, I do want to '''strongly admonish FBN''', because even in their "response" they said a few things that still do not sit right with me. For example {{tq|I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone }} however, Folly Mox asked about their prior statement of "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering and their age, they said simply {{tq|That comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies.}}. That is in addition to their own statement earlier in the "response" stating that they kept using the phase that ''they didn't use chat GPT'' even whens specifically asked about LLM, and that they {{tq|now realise was evasive}} -- I believe that it wasn't until this ANI that they realized they were being decepitve. I also take great pause at the statement of {{tq|to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy}}. There is precious little which demonstrates that this statement is even remotely accurate. Even in raising this ANI, very few of the instructions were followed. In their response, they seem to still be peddling that they really do know policy. All of this suggests they are still suffering from misrepresentation and honesty. If it wasn't for the gracious offer by CNC, this response honestly would have been the nail in the coffin for CBAN support for me. ] ] 18:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == User:49.206.48.151 == | |||
| The user again engaged in edit warring behavior on the controversial ] article. , which were messy (included an old article title and strangely had ''two'' background sections). . in an attempt to calm the situation. . and reminded them of ]. and accused me of misrepresenting the sources (which I can easily disprove). | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Please keep ] off my talk page . See also . --] (]) 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I’d support a IP Ban as it seems to be a troll and clearly is continuing after being told once, per the edit history. ] (]) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have given them a warning - if they continue, let me know. In future you should try and talk to them before coming to ANI. ]] 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I haven't looked at the civility issues, but a block for edit warring is definitely warranted. They used sockpuppet accounts and continued edit warring even after being warned. | |||
| ::They continued . ] (]) 15:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Also, ] really should be renamed to avoid confusion. ] <sup><i>]</i></sup> 13:54, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Blocked, thanks. ]] 15:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{re|Carpimaps}} Yeah, I’ve reached out about the username and heard nothing. Thanks for bringing that to attention again. ] (]) 20:02, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| : that may have been performed as a ]. ] (]) 16:40, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == 2403:580E:EB64:0::/64: disruptive changes to UK nationalities == | |||
| The problem with {{userlinks|WMrapids}} is that he continues to delete duly referenced paragraphs, despite having been warned to abandon this behavior. For example, he insists on placing the in the intro that "...and the majority of Peruvians showed support for its creation in the weeks following Castillo's actions" (in reference to the intention to convene a constituent assembly) despite the fact that the majority of Peruvians do not support a new constitution or the call for a constituent assembly in 2023 (as many references support).<ref>''«También se reveló que un 34,9% está a favor de convocar una asamblea constituyente, mientas que un 53,7% la rechaza»''{{Cite web|url=https://www.infobae.com/peru/2023/05/01/encuesta-cpi-un-769-desaprueba-la-gestion-de-dina-boluarte-y-un-893-la-del-congreso/|title=Encuesta CPI: un 76,9% desaprueba la gestión de Dina Boluarte y un 89,3% la del Congreso|publisher=]|date=1 May 2023|language=es}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=30 April 2023 |title=Estudio de Opinión Pública Nacional PERÚ URBANO Y RURAL Campo: 23 al 28 de abril de 2023 |url=https://cpi.pe/images/upload/paginaweb/archivo/23/Informe%20de%20Opini%C3%B3n%20P%C3%BAblica%20abril%202023.pdf |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230530131511/https://cpi.pe/images/upload/paginaweb/archivo/23/Informe%20de%20Opini%C3%B3n%20P%C3%BAblica%20abril%202023.pdf |archive-date=30 May 2023 |publisher=CPI |language=es}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=2023-01-16 |title=Nueva Constitución: aumenta el respaldo, pero no es mayoritario |url=https://larepublica.pe/politica/actualidad/2023/01/16/encuesta-iep-nueva-constitucion-aumenta-el-respaldo-pero-no-es-mayoritario-constitucion-de-1993-asamblea-constituyente-referendum-constituyente |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230121045215/https://larepublica.pe/politica/actualidad/2023/01/16/encuesta-iep-nueva-constitucion-aumenta-el-respaldo-pero-no-es-mayoritario-constitucion-de-1993-asamblea-constituyente-referendum-constituyente/ |archive-date=21 Jan 2023 |access-date=2023-05-17 |website=] |language=es}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |date=2023-02-26 |title=Propuesta de una nueva Constitución empieza a perder respaldo popular, según encuesta del IEP |url=https://www.infobae.com/peru/2023/02/26/propuesta-de-una-nueva-constitucion-empieza-a-perder-respaldo-popular-segun-encuesta-del-iep/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230517215727/https://www.infobae.com/peru/2023/02/26/propuesta-de-una-nueva-constitucion-empieza-a-perder-respaldo-popular-segun-encuesta-del-iep/ |archive-date=17 May 2023 |access-date=2023-05-17 |website=] |language=es}}</ref> Also, he insists on deleting the final paragraph of the introduction that, duly referenced, informs about the current judicial status of Pedro Castillo and is putting in its place a paragraph referring to a ruling by the Constitutional Court on the power of the Peruvian Congress to appoint officials that have nothing to do with Article which is about the coup attempt. I have reverted those edits because they have been arbitrarily placed without prior consensus being reached in the discussion section.--] (]) 19:08, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocktannia rules the page. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :I have attempted dialogue and edits to help with these issues. Instead, you continue ] and ] and using socks in edit wars. ] (]) 20:23, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ] is an intermittent but disruptive editor whose last edit was today (my time) and who seems to have quite a bee in their bonnet about describing people or things as English ... they very much prefer them to be described as British. They use highly emotive and inflammatory edit summaries to make their point, ranging from ] to ]. They have been warned in ] and ] in ]. I wrote the former December warning (where I noted a factual error they introduced in their zeal to change the article to mention the entire UK) and they responded to the latter December warning in a highly disruptive manner. I think some sort of block is in order, at the very least. It's hard to communicate with /64 editors like this but I and other editors have tried our best, additionally including ], which they haven't violated in their last two article edits (though one could argue ] violated their warning). ] (]) 15:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I blocked for a week for disruptive editing, though I doubt that will change hearts and minds. ] (]) 16:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == New Family Family Rises Again == | |||
| I know it takes two to edit war, but user has continued edit warring behavior </nowiki>]</nowiki>]</nowiki>] while placing manipulative comments on the talk page and edit summaries, making false statements about the content of sources.--] (]) 22:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:31, 5 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|New Family Family Rises Again}} | |||
| Some odd initial edits to their own user page, and then falsely adding the admin top icon to a user blocked several years ago, for among other things, impersonating an administrator. Probably a sock, but even if not, something is amiss. ] (]) 16:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==]== | |||
| :Oh, I didn't even initially realize those odd initial edits were back in 2020, around the time when said other user was blocked. ] (]) 16:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I would like to report ] for persistent disruptive editing on various pages. This user has been consistently removing references and changing the names of organisations and political parties to abbreviations, as seen in . Additionally, there have been instances where the user has added malicious content, as seen in . The user's edits consistently follow a similar pattern, which includes removing sources/sourced content, changing names to abbreviations, and at times, engaging in evident vandalism. I have reverted most of their recent edits and have warned the user twice about their disruptive editing behaviour but have not received any response or improvement in their actions. I would like to bring some administrator attention to this. ] (]) 09:58, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::That this was the user's first edit in 5 years is definitely strange. I reverted their latest one. ] (]) 18:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *The second edit's much worse than the first. The that you report doesn't seem disruptive to me because the reference he removed was a broken link. I don't agree with the change from full names to abbreviations, but to my eye it's ill-judged rather than disruptive. The should never have been made and a sysop should visit this editor's talk page to offer support and direction.—] <small>]/]</small> 10:51, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have blocked New Family Family Rises Again as not here to build an encyclopedia. We do not need trolls who lie, even if their editing is infrequent. ] (]) 19:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Thank you for your response. However, I would like to clarify that all the edits of ] follow the same pattern, either removing content or changing names to abbreviations. All the edits literally. Two of them were just examples to show the pattern. The user has been consistently engaging in the same editing practices despite my talk page messages. My main task lately has been reverting the user's edits. I believe some intervention from administrators is necessary to address this ongoing issue. ] (]) 09:39, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == MAB Teahouse talk == | |||
| == General battleground and incivility from an otherwise productive editor == | |||
| I didn't want to, but I one-hour protected the talk page of the Teahouse due to MAB going there. The Teahouse itself is already protected. Obviously they're going there precisely to make things as difficult on us as possible, but I don't know what else to do. ] (]) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Recently {{Ping|Tewdar}}'s contributions at ] have become disruptive, they have a long history of editing the page (140 edits, #2 in terms of editors by edits) and the talk (over 500 edits, again #2 overall) but over time they've become less and less collegial. Recent edit summaries and comments include: | |||
| :Would it be possible to create a link (or button) that creates a new section on one's own talk page with {{tl|Help me}} preloaded? We could then add this to the page's editnotice. ] (]) 09:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * "Better? Let's have a ****ing RfC..." | |||
| ::I protected ] for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — ] (]) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * "what a fustercluck" | |||
| :::OK, I've fixed that. — ] (]) 12:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * "I suppose we could say "Jérôme Jamin, a researcher in Political Science at the University of Liège, Belgium" too, but that would just be stupid. Why the **** do we need to say which university Braun works at? "Academic philosopher" or "fully-qualified academic philisopher" or whatever would be fine if you think we're leaving off details from her CV here..." | |||
| Looks like today they're hitting every help page they can find. ] (]) 09:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * "This complaint is easily fixed in like 10 seconds, no need to revert, you could do it yourself if you weren't making POINTs all the time..." | |||
| ::::<small>In relation to "MAB" issues, is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of when the notoriously difficult Queen Mab speech was pretty much hit out of park in 1997's ]? ] (]) 🦘 12:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| * "Consult your optician please" | |||
| * "If you "can't find any support", you must be having vision trouble again. That's the entire point of the fucking chapter!!! Do you have a PARITY source that says this is wrong? I could dewikivoice it for you, if you ask nicely" | |||
| * "Now don't change stuff that I'm guessing you didn't even read." | |||
| * "Actually, fuck this. Not debating sources with people who don't read the sources." | |||
| * "I don't believe you read the source. You just can't have!" | |||
| * "You just DONTLIKEIT because the source says "cultural Marxists", no?" | |||
| * "Attempt to fix ridiculous repetition caused by earlier 'contribution' that fucked everything up for ideological BATTLEGROUND reasons without even reading the source" | |||
| * "This conversation is shit, so I'm going to do something else." | |||
| * "Actually I fucking hate discussions on this talk page" | |||
| There are also bludgeoning and edit warring concerns but they appear co-morbid with the battleground behavior, I don't have much experience with Tewdar on other pages but from their edit history this does not appear to be a widespread problem they otherwise appear to be doing great. To prevent further disruption I am requesting a formal warning and if that does not straighten out this otherwise productive editor a page/talk page ban from Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory. ] (]) 20:53, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *I first came across Tewdar at ] a couple of years ago when they were new to WP and noticed them at various venues here since. My take, FWIW, is that their communication style is somewhat immature/crass but, in a British context, is harmless. I don't think it "travels". I suspect in the global context of WP (if you're not a Brit) it comes across a lot worse than intended. Which is not to say that Tewdar shouldn't modify it. ] (]) 21:13, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::I thought it's ''Americans'' that are immature and crass. ]] 22:04, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::: ] (]) 22:16, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::: "I thought it's ''Americans'' that are immature and crass." From the people I noticed on the Internet over the years, I got the impression that Americans are humorless, prudish, and easily offended. Crass is not what comes to mind about them. ] (]) 18:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Hey, who you calling easily offended? I ought to give you a punch in the nose! ]] 19:20, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *I tried to engage him about this, and persuade him that his behaviour was counterproductive, back in February. () --] (]) 21:35, 3 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * Not sure if responding is such a great idea but here goes anyhow; so hi! 😁 I'm Tewdar. I've ] a ] ] here of quite variable quality and viewership. I like writing articles. My favourite part is finding out that I got something wrong and having to rewrite everything. I contribute to articles I didn't write too. Most of the time my editing is unproblematic. So I'll do an edit, and someone will say it's crap and revert it, and sometimes I think someone else's edit is crap and I'll revert it, and sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong and sometimes it's a bit of both and we come to a compromise and yadda yadda ya. Usually not a problem. | |||
| * One of the few (?) exceptions to this pattern is the ] article. I remember searching for ] about a year and a half ago and being redirected to some crackpot conspiracy theory that I had been dimly aware of. I was pretty surprised by the redirect. Even more surprising was the quality of the article, which was in (B-class my ass). Not that I'm taking all the credit for the improvements since then - lots of people have made changes since- but I must have done a significant amount of the restructuring, content addition, and source checking. | |||
| * There certainly is a battleground there, but it was like that when I got here. Statements that any L1 English speaker could see were a grotesque distortion of the sources required an RfC to remove. Pointing out false quotations were met with insinuations of being a fascist sympathiser or believer in the conspiracy theory. Questioning source accuracy got me called a racist troll. Nobody on that talk page gave a flying fuck about any of the personal attacks. | |||
| * Moving on to the last few days, I ] that the phrase used in the lead, 'culturally liberal values', was not found in the sources and, in my view, a questionable summary for what sources described as 'atheism' and 'socialism', among other alleged goals. Apparently it was pedantry to point out that this phrase was not found in any of the sources used in the article at the time. Well, there was certainly a lot of sarcastic pedantry in response. Perhaps my own responses were not perfect, but I don't think I was particularly rude to anyone. Now, on to yesterday, when I made addition to the article from a new book. This was, to no surprise whatsoever, of the phrase 'cultural Marxists' (the term used in the source) and any reference to the appropriation of Gramsci's 'war of position' by the New Right, on the grounds that 'can't find support' for the claim. Well yes, it must be easy to 'not find support' if you . Now, my one-man edit war (I was having trouble deciding whether to just revert or not, since they obviously hadn't read it) and accompanying summaries were not my best work here, but ''Trudgeon on his tractor'', you can't just go around reverting stuff because you guessed that it isn't in a source that you can't actually read! Anyway, I left it pretty much as it was, with a bit of copy editing because the removal buggered everything up, so I don't know where the claims of edit warring are coming from, unless you mean against myself. | |||
| * To be honest most of those diffs above are a bit daft. The "Consult your optician please" one, about Newimpartial's inability to read italic font, even got a thankyou from NI if I remember rightly. "what a fustercluck", well, yep, that's an accurate description of the structure at the time. And yeah, 'Dr Professor Joan Braun, of Gonzaga University' vs. 'some dude called Jérôme Jamin' requires some sort of piss take for sure. And finally, I really really do fucking hate discussions on that talk page. Sorry about that, but at least that one was accompanied by the blanking of the section I created so we didn't have to talk about it. | |||
| * I could probably manage to tone down the swearing and (what people seem to be perceiving as) battleground behaviour a bit if people really think it's disruptive or problematic. ] 02:14, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:<s>For the record, my difficulty was in seeing '''bold''' font, not ''italic''.</s> I actually still can't see the <s>bold</s> ''italic'' font in the original source that Tewdar insists is there. But I have acquiesced on that prior issue. | |||
| *:And the fact remains that I am able to ''search'' the new source Tewdar added, though I am not able to read it in its entirety, and I have found no references at all to {{tq|Gramscian cultural Marxists}}, which is the phrase he proposed to add in article space and which I trimmed. | |||
| *:Now my text searches may have been mis-specified, or Tewdar may have been making a valid paraphrase that I mistook for ]. I am willing to discuss both of those - and other - possibilities, as I noted with, I think, a good deal of civility. | |||
| *:But if the only tool in Tewdar's toolkit to edit and revert while hammering away in summaries such as, {{tq|Now don't change stuff that I'm guessing you didn't even read...Actually, fuck this. Not debating sources with people who don't read the sources...You just DONTLIKEIT because the source says "cultural Marxists", no?...caused by earlier 'contribution' that fucked everything up for ideological BATTLEGROUND reasons without even reading the source}} - well, I'm not feeling much like interpolating myself as a nail, to be completely honest. I'd rather not be on the receiving end of this (in fact, on either end). ] (]) 12:44, 5 June 2023 (UTC) ''corrected by'' ] (]) 13:39, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::When I say italic, I mean italic. Not trying to be rude here, but can you see the difference between {{tq|''is''}} and {{tq|is}}? The source uses the phrase 'Gramsci inspired cultural Marxists'. Frankly, if an editor cannot access the source properly, they should probably ask what it says before reverting good faith edits if they want to dispute the content. ] 13:11, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Perhaps someone else can access , search for "Cultural Marxism ''is'' a distinct philosophical approach associated with some strands of the Frankfurt School", and verify that the word 'is' is italicized... ] 13:20, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::My comment on fonts is corrected above. Also, I don't have any difficulty telling fonts apart in Misplaced Pages, in my browser. I ''do'' have difficulty telling some fonts apart when chosen by others, such as in rendered .pdfs or on certain search platforms. | |||
| *:::As far as the "Gramsci inspired" phrase, I have explained why I can't accept Tewdar's reading and paraphrase of it - I don't think there are any ANI issues about that. | |||
| *:::What could be an ANI issue, is revert-warring to insert elements of an editor's preferred version while refusing to parricipate in discussion on Talk, which Tewdar has done in of . ] (]) 13:39, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::A rapid succession of edits by myself alone that ended on ''your'' preferred version based on ''your'' reading of a source that you ''still'' cannot properly access. ] 13:44, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Also I ''did'' start a talk page discussion, which I withdrew, because I did not want another discussion like the previous day. I don't want any more discussions on that article talk page. I cannot bear to edit it anymore. ] 13:49, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :It's not unusual for him to engage in troll-like behavior towards people who hold opinions contrary to his. ] (]) 02:59, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::What, like sort of thing? ] 03:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Moarnighar == | |||
| Ehh, I'm a bit torn. On the one hand, some of those comments clearly violate ], as it seems Tewdar acknowledges. On the other hand, Tewdar has given a cogent accounting and seems genuine in presenting an explanation for these behaviours that is based in the principle that "context is king". For what it's worth, I have been summoned to that article more than once over the years by a random FRS/RfC notice, and it must be said, it is truly one of the worst perennially toxic experiences on the project: a true mixing pot of fringe conspiracy theories (of political and racial dimensions), NOTHERE motives, tendentious editing, and policy violations. I can see where even a usually reserved community member might occasionally lose their patience if engaging there over an extended period. | |||
| *{{userlinks|Moarnighar}} | |||
| * pinging editors from ]: {{ping|Rsjaffe|Callanecc|Spicy}} | |||
| That said, I suspect Tewdar could really anticipate what I am going to add here: context is king, but that particular king is not above the law, in the land of the Wikites. Which is my messy, mixed metaphor way of saying that we only excuse so much bad behaviour, in terms of brightline behavioural policy violations, on the grounds that others set the table for the disruption. At some juncture, you bear the responsibility for pulling yourself out of a content dispute or a given space if you are feeling ] and keeping comments within certain bounds. All factors considered--including especially that I don't think the OP was looking to get Tewdar sanctioned, but just wanted an acknowledgment from Tewdar that this was not the best way forward (and/or a nudge from the community along the same lines)--I think that all that is warranted here is said nudge. Tewdar is clearly not in IDHT mode, so I hope they will take it to heart when I say the following: please just dial back the sarcasm, frustrated swearing, and undertones of long-suffering exasperation, and take breaks as necessary to avoid personalized commentary about any other community member's eyeballs, and that sort of thing. '']]'' 06:53, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * pinging editors from ]: {{ping|Gidonb|GreenC|Allan Nonymous|Rainsage|Aaron Liu}} | |||
| :If Tewdar was more civil with his interactions then he would be far more successful as an editor here. ] (]) 08:43, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * also pinging {{ping|Alpha3031}} | |||
| * It does look to me like Tewdar is bludgeoning that discussion. We all get a bit heated sometimes, I think it's probably wise to deliver a trout to his address and tell him to limit himself to a normal amount of messages on that page. Which I know he knows how to do.--] (]) 12:19, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:It would make a change from ]. Which discussion are you referring to? ] To be fair, they were just repeatedly asking me for never-ruddy-good-enough sources over and over again. So I just kept giving them what they were (quite rudely, imo) asking for. But meh. I suppose it might look like bludgeoning. Anyway, SnowRise (and DeCausa) have given me some excellent advice above, which I intend to take, along with the trout. Also, I plan on staying away from that article, at least until the forthcoming peer-reviewed study, ''Misplaced Pages’s Intentional Distortion of the History of Cultural Marxism'' is published, so that should free up editor resources over there for reverting bulk replacement of the article with the circa 2014 version and allcaps additions of "THIS IS ALL LIES WE KNOW THE MARXISTS IS IN CHARGE!!!". Also I apologize for any personal attacks I have made in frustration. So... is that good enough, or is some sterner punishment required? ] 12:52, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::"Also I apologize for any personal attacks I have made in frustration." Tewdar, there are plenty of things in Misplaced Pages that I find frustrating and counterproductive. But to start exchanging insults with other editors is not going to magically fix these problems. Perhaps you should take a break from interactions on certain talk-pages, if they are affecting your mental state that much. ] (]) 18:22, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::To be honest, I should probably just stick to articles that nobody else edits. ] 18:54, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::While I understand the sentiment, ANI of this collaborative project is maybe not the best place to express it. Cf my first post in this thread. Less is more. ] (]) 19:45, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| This editor is making problems once more. As has been noted at SPI for making a very dubious keep (normal, not speedy) close of an AfD (), launching ] afterwards. They also made several promotional edits: . Note that both of the articles have seemingly been affected by UPE. I am also concerned about their username. ] (]) 14:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==] regarding ] and ]== | |||
| *{{Userlinks|Daeva Trạc}} | |||
| == Kosem Sultan - warring edit == | |||
| * ] has been alerted by multiple users about adding badly sourced or unsourced content, particularly flags and maps, in the past few months without changing their behavior. | |||
| Hello, I am terribly sorry if I write this in wrong place, but I really don't know what place would be best to report this. | |||
| * Problematic additions mentioned in as follows: | |||
| ** | |||
| ** without any sources | |||
| ** with incomplete citations, surnames and page numbers but no title, no page numbers for a text over 200 pages long | |||
| ** with a failed verification source | |||
| ** based on blogs and Wiki pages as sources | |||
| ** based on blogs and Wiki pages that don't even agree entirely with the map | |||
| * It has been explained by each user that they need to adhere to ] to support their content. | |||
| * They deflect from ] and RS by ignoring and implying that Misplaced Pages, blogs, or primary sources are legitimate: | |||
| ** - No mention of ], tries to legitimize using Wiki as source, if the subject is legendary in nature then all content can be or the article should be deleted. | |||
| ** - Admits that they cannot find a reliable source and used a blog instead. | |||
| ** - Deflects from lack of RS by stating {{tq|I haven’t add any unsourced flags}} despite to infoboxes. Says that since the subject of the page is legendary, then the whole article should be deleted if they can't use "legendary" sources. Does not understand ]. Repeats that the maps are based on Misplaced Pages sources. The sources are never given. | |||
| ** - More deflection from lack of RS based on ] and primary source "arguments" at and . | |||
| ** - Starting to become a bit unintelligible plus previous behavior | |||
| ** - Deflection from RS and OTHERCONTENT | |||
| ** - No mention of RS | |||
| ** - OTHERCONTENT | |||
| ** - primary source | |||
| ** - blogs | |||
| ** - primary source | |||
| ** - I'm not sure what they're talking about | |||
| * They tried to enlist the aid of another editor ]: | |||
| * Continued to add the same maps ( ) without reliable sources after discussion: | |||
| ** | |||
| ** | |||
| * The user is either ] at this point or has ] issues | |||
| ] (]) 10:26, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :1. About Talk page: | |||
| :First section: I did about an internet-based, self-claimed Nazist party, but had to delete due to unnecessary | |||
| :Second section: have you even read? I literally copy down from Misplaced Pages and that guy claimed I made things up, which then I added sources that come from the exact Wikipage | |||
| :Third section: as I mentioned, nationlists don’t care about spreading there ideas in English on a “reliable” website. | |||
| :Fourth section: you deleted names (that have been written in various sources included in Misplaced Pages) and maps (that have more sources than those maps ]. Then attacked me for some things I did in the past. | |||
| :2. Call for help | |||
| :Since you have known, why don’t you read more carefully. I don’t want my account to be banned by a “Trust me bro” user ],], attacks me and claimed the sources I added are not at best at his ]. If even Lĩnh Nam chích quái and Đại Việt Sử ký toàn thư are unreliable, then what else are? Why do I have to believe in a guy who made maps with no sources? | |||
| :3. This user keeps using my old “flag adding” mistakes to attack me in an argument that don’t even related to the subjects. In ] article, he deleted a sourced file, but keeps his unsourced ones. He deleted names that have been found in other versions of Misplaced Pages along with Chinese and Vietnamese nonWiki sources. In ], he deleted a map that I drew based on <ref></ref><ref></ref><ref></ref>. | |||
| :With an arbitrary admin like this, how can Misplaced Pages be neutral. ] (]) 10:44, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :And not sure why most of the accusations, you only pointed out what I did in the past instead of present | |||
| :*The ] is literally just separation out of ] (During WW2 and Puppet state) (as the contents and title doesn’t really match). | |||
| :*Flag, again, comes from an internet-pased party that I mentioned ] | |||
| :*Ah, the double standards as I mentioned above. I wondered what would have happened if I just didn’t put any sources like here (not sure if this is you, but this user’s files, although unsourced, are still being used). | |||
| :— ] (]) 11:08, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::None of this addresses the concerns raised by editors on ] talk page until now. The problem at ] was not its creation but the lack of sources and now incomplete sources, probably as a result of directly copy pasting citations from another Wiki page without due diligence. This type of failure to acknowledge fault in adequately sourcing ] is the primary problem that has remained until now. You can see it even now in the current discussion between the user and ]. In ] notice that Daeva never once admits ''what'' the sources are besides their Wiki links, which consist of almost entirely blogs and primary sources, or that there is anything wrong with the sources. When Donald specifically mentions not to do add Misplaced Pages as the source, Daeva either ignores it or . If their behavior had changed after the first three times editors had brought similar issues to their page, I might have extended more good faith, but that is not the case. I am perplexed why Donald continues to extend good faith when the user has not shown any significant signs of acknowledging basic Misplaced Pages policies such as ], ], and ]. ] (]) 21:42, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Examples of : | |||
| ::: | |||
| :::*My at ] was disputing the accuracy and sources of the map they added. At ] I was not to remove their map nor did I . | |||
| ::: - | |||
| :::*'']'' is a 14th century primary source. | |||
| ::: | |||
| :::*Immediately after Donald explained that Misplaced Pages should not be used as the source, they argued that having Wiki pages as support adds additional legitimacy. | |||
| ::: | |||
| :::*Does not mention that these non-Wiki sources are PRIMARY and UGC. | |||
| :::] (]) 22:28, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::: | |||
| :::*Of the three names they added to the list of Yue polities , only 東越 appears in the body of version, the other names do not appear in either the Chinese or versions. They are from the unsourced and Chinese versions they listed in the description of the . There is no way to know if they are real without further information since they are not mentioned in the English version of the page nor are there sources provided. There are Chinese and Vietnamese versions for for / with no reliable sources, only dead links or UGC. | |||
| :::] (]) 23:12, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{reflist-talk}} | |||
| I was editing page of ] and I noticed this user: 109.228.104.136 changed phrase in infobox "spouse: Ahmed I" into "consort of: Ahmed I", claiming 'they were never married'. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=K%C3%B6sem_Sultan&oldid=1263148667 | |||
| == Disruptive editing by Chile-based dynamic IPs == | |||
| Because of this, I added information they were married and sourced this with book. However, this person keep revert to their preffered version of infobox. I asked them on Talk page about providing source. When I pointed that their source not disputes or even misinnterprets mine, they deleted my talk. They did this twice and even claimed I 'vandalized' Kosem's page. | |||
| This is a Chile-based dynamic IP who for many months now has been changing details in many film articles against consensus, despite advice and numerous warnings. They change billing block and cast list entries; change the title/headline of citations/references; change wikilink targets; over-link (etc). By the time action can be taken against them, pages are semi-protected, or a proxy bot blocks them, they've already moved on to another article or another IP address, then they return to repeat the same reverted edits over and over and over again, denying the charges against them, even when presented with diffs as proof. | |||
| As inexperienced user I was few times into edit warring, as I did not know how exactly rules are there.I try to be careful now to not make disruptions and while there is instruction to undo undsourced informations, I am not sure if I am allowed to undo their - unsourced - edition, as I already did this few times. I would not label changing 'spouse' for 'consort of' as vandalism per say, but I want to protect my edition and I wish this person provided source so we could each consensus. You can see our - now deleted by them - discussion here: | |||
| You'll see that the majority of their contributions have been reverted by other editors, and yet they persist with making the same or similar changes. Latest response to another editor's level 4 vandalism warning: "Yeah yeah, whatever you say." | |||
| 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267744138#Kosem_Sultan_was_wife_of_Ahmed_I. | |||
| 2) | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267749540#Kosem_was_wife_of_Ahmed | |||
| (I do not know if I linked this correctly, but both shound be find in history of talk page of user with today date) | |||
| I hope it can be seen I was willing to discuss things and I even proposed to merge ours versions, if only this person provide scholar source - which they didn't, as Tik Tok video they linked contardicts statement from my book (see details in discussions). | |||
| I do wonder if this user is on the spectrum, and I appreciate that allowances are made for such users. | |||
| I also want to add that blocked user called Cecac https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:K%C3%B6sem_Sultan#Marriage | |||
| used exactly the same argument, as historian in Tik Tok provided by 109.228.104.136. I do not know if 109.228.104.136 and Cecac are the same person, but I think it should be checked. | |||
| Finally, I do not know how much video made on Tik Tok should be considered as reliable source, so I am not sure how to act in this situation. | |||
| Again I apologize if I leave this message in wrong board - there were multiple issues so I decided to list them all. Please notify me if I am allowed edit Kosem's page and brought back informations, as I really want avoid going back-and-forth and do not want to be blocked myself. --] (]) 14:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''Update''': Current IP is now {{IP|201.188.134.123}}. | |||
| * Example {{Diff|Scarlett Johansson on screen and stage|prev|1158624366|Edit difference}} ("Fixed and updated", but actually changes citation/reference titles/headlines as well. You need to scroll a long way down the source page). | |||
| :I want to add that I informed user 109.228.104.136 about this reprt, however they delete this from their Talk page. ] (]) 23:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Example {{Diff|Jena Malone on screen and stage|prev|1158588522|Edit difference}} ("Fixed; Army of the Dead: Lost Vegas is a TV show and starts streaming this year", but actually changes citation/reference titles/headlines as well. You need to scroll a long way down the source page). | |||
| == SPA User:Muzaffarpur1947 and persistant removal of negative information about ] == | |||
| Previous incarnation: {{IP|201.188.149.37}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|Muzaffarpur1947}} | |||
| * Example {{Diff|Nicolas Cage filmography|prev|1158473301|Edit difference}} (reversion by another editor of multiple edits: "Stop redoing the same edits over and over when they are reverted for a reason"). | |||
| User ] has been warned for removing negative information and and uncited information, seems content to keep trying to blank these sections out of articles and replace them with uncited positive blubs. Persisting past warnings from other editors. Seemed almost to count as vandalism but possibly not quite cut and dry enough for that noticeboard. | |||
| Diffs are pretty much . ] 15:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Example {{Diff|Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania|prev|1158411849|Edit difference}} (reversion by another editor of multiple edits: "Also unreliable, now considered intentional disruptive editing as previously reverted changes were done yet again"). | |||
| == Evading Article-Ban == | |||
| Previous incarnation: {{IP|201.188.143.30}} | |||
| {{atop|1=], and it was a ], not a ]. Closing this. - ] <sub>]</sub> 20:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| * Example {{Diff|Snow White (2024 film)|prev|1157838499|Edit difference}}. Incomplete and deceptive edit summary "Fixed". Actually changes citation/reference titles/headlines. | |||
| {{User|Westwind273}}, who was banned from editing ] and its TP last week following an ANI for uncivil behavior, appears to be evading their ban through their talk page in order to display the same uncivil, ] and ] posts that betray ] and ] behavior, not to mention their refusal to drop the stick that led to them being kicked off the article in the first place. See and . ] (]) 16:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :You must be kidding. How am I evading the ban? No one who is editing the Jeju article is bothering to read my talk page. Why would they? Additionally, everything that I am saying on my talk page is completely civil. I am not making personal attacks on anyone in any way. I think you need to drop the stick on this. ] (]) 17:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Previous incarnation: {{IP|190.21.163.12}}. | |||
| :Westwind273 does not appear to have been banned? The previous ANI appears to be ], but that seems to have resulted in blocks, not a ban. | |||
| :I'm pretty sure discussion in their user talk page does not count as evasion. – ] (]) (]) 17:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::A pageblock is not the same thing as a topic ban, {{u|Borgenland}}. I see no problem with their comments on their own talk page. ] (]) 18:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I agree with Cullen328, as the one whose comment the user in question is responding to. For what it's worth, I do not foresee this editor being constructive elsewhere but have no issue as long as they don't escalate to personal attacks and keep to their talk page.--] ] 19:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == NOt here account == | |||
| Previous incarnation: {{IP|190.21.168.123}} | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 20:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| * Example {{Diff|Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them (film)|prev|1149871570|Edit difference}} (reversion by another editor of multiple edits: "rv disruptive editing". Repeated changes to citation titles, followed by increase in page protection). | |||
| {{User|203.30.15.99}} But this ] is pretty much saying they will continue unless they are sanctioned. ] (]) 16:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Not an account; already blocked for a month by {{u|Bbb23}}. ] (]) 18:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Many incarnations before this, especially editing four ''Fantastic Beasts'' film-related articles. | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Transphobia in my talk page by 136.57.92.245 == | |||
| Some (but certainly not all) earlier incarnations are here: . | |||
| {{atop|1=IP blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{Userlinks|136.57.92.245}} has posted the following - | |||
| ] - to my talk page, after I reverted a section blank which was done to ]. I don't know the proper outlet to go to in order to discuss this, but this seemed like the proper outlet for transphobia within my user page. | |||
| ] (]) 17:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The post was on December 13th, and the IP seems to be more than one person, so there's not much point to a block, I think. You can certainly remove the posting. ] (]) 17:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Your help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time and consideration. <b>]<small> + ] + ]</small></b> 11:33, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I know we don't block IP addresses indefinitely, but this one seems to be used by only one person (or if by more than one they have remarkably similar interests), so a short preventative block is possible if they make any more such comments. ] (]) 17:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I think a block should be placed. Whether on the spectrum or not (personally it doesn't seem like they are), the user is being repeatedly disruptive, ignoring consensus, and being dismissive, with comments such as {{tqq|Dude stop with your drama}} () in response to your ANI notice. —'']'' (]) 17:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::136.57.92.245's edits to ], the apparent prelude to the personal attack, span a period of 29 days. – ] (]) (]) 17:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::All the edits are film-related, and it's like playing whack-a-mole with so much IP hopping. Would a topic ban be appropriate, and would it span across future IPs, making it far simpler to pursue as block evasion? <b>]<small> + ] + ]</small></b> 17:46, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| : |
:(Not an admin) I've left them a level 4 warning for the personal attack. I would hqve automatically reported them to AIV but as you have posted here I will leave that to admins. ] (]) 17:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| ::I'm a newbie to Misplaced Pages, I've only done some simple changes and redirects, figuring out how to report was a tall task in itself, but if any problems like this reoccur, I'll be sure to post it there. Thank you. ] (]) 17:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Lots of reversion by multiple editors, gentle advice, increasingly stern notices, range block, increased page protection, waiting for proxy bot to block have been used thus far, but the user still persists. Your ] went stale before it was even looked at. That's why, not knowing myself, I brought the issue here. <b>]<small> + ] + ]</small></b> 18:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I've placed a three-month {{tl|anonblock}}. They don't need a warning and they don't seem to be multiple people. They can request an unblock if they're willing to talk about their hate. ] (]) 18:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''Update''': Current IP is now {{IP|201.188.134.123}}. <b>]<small> + ] + ]</small></b> 07:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == IP User 103.109.59.32 persisting in unsourced inflation of Buddhist population numbers == | |||
| == User:AsbjornSigurdsson — Long-term NPOV editing related to ] by a ] == | |||
| *{{IPlinks|103.109.59.32}} | |||
| This IP was temporarily blocked a few days ago for persistently editing articles about religion to greatly increase the Buddhist population numbers and decrease the numbers for other faiths. Upon expiry of the block they have immediately resumed the same behavior (for example and ), and are attempting to cite the numbers they inserted to advocate for changes in other articles (for example ). Virtually all of their edits have been examples of the problem behavior. -- ] ] 18:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :While I certainly understand concerns that American demographic sources are making systematic mistakes regarding the population of China the IP is not going about this in anything remotely resembling an appropriate method. ] (]) 18:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ''This report was automatically archived without any discussion or action. Consequently, I am resubmitting it.'' | |||
| == User:CNMall41 is Removing reliable sources and contents == | |||
| '''Subject of report:''' {{Userlinks|AsbjornSigurdsson}}<br> | |||
| {{Atop|I blocked OP as a sock at SPI.--] (]) 19:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| '''Reporter:''' {{Userlinks|Greentryst}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|CNMall41}} | |||
| ] is Removing reliable sources like ], ], ] from ]. He also removed the list from ]. Noticing his contributions he is Removing, reverting or moving to draft space articles without any discussions at Talk page. I also noticed that he always through the new Misplaced Pages users in Sock puppet investigations. He also a major user who delete, revert or move pages from main space to draft space related to Television and film from ] and ]. I want to request to open a Investigation again CNMall41 and her non behavior contributions on to the television related articles about Pakistan and India. He also harasses user to keep away from her talk page. Please take a look on that. Thank you <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :Yes, I removed the unreliable sourcing which is non-bylined, , etc. SPI also filed . --] (]) 18:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *], you have been an editor for 5 days now unless you are a returning editor evading a block. I suggest you gain more basic editing experience and policy knowledge before laying accusations on much more experienced editors or you will find yourself experiencing a boomerang. You also don't know much about how Misplaced Pages works if you think you can request that an "investigation" can be "opened" and you didn't even offer any diffs to support your claims so this is going nowhere. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :This is a content dispute that should be handled on the talk page and if not resolved there, taken to DR. (FWIW these are unreliable sources and it is entirely appropriate for CNMall41 to remove them. This should be promptly closed with a ] to the filer. ] (]) 18:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I have {{Diff|User_talk:AsbjornSigurdsson|prev|1157984972|notified this user}} about this report. | |||
| :: {{re|Dclemens1971}} Given the precociousness of the complaining "new" editor, I think a ] would be better than a ] in this case. ] ] 19:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I also {{Diff|User_talk:AsbjornSigurdsson|prev|1145779783|warned this user}} about this behavior previously. | |||
| :::Correct, I typed that before I saw there was an SPI opened. ] (]) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Looking at the ] history, ] may need a closer look outside of the CU results. To my eye, the evidence shows a pretty close connection. ] ] 19:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Yes, specifically and . Glad you saw that without me pointing it out. --] (]) 19:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have not filed at ANI yet, but if you look at the most recent filings in the linked SPI case, there are other users involved that were not caught up in the CU which are still likely SOCKS and UPE. --] (]) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Per recent claims, I have opted not to close this as I was originally going to do as this comment. This recent new information clearly warrants this discussion. ] (]) 19:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{Abot}} | |||
| == IP persistently removing sourced content. == | |||
| To the best of my understanding, this is a ] related to the ], rather than a content dispute. | |||
| This user's ] have been related to ]. Shetland is one of the 32 ] of ]. | |||
| ] has been persistently well removing sourced content from the articles ], ], ], ] where the content discusses the involvement of people under the age of 18 in those subjects, on the basis of some of the people involved also being over 18. Glancing at their edit history you can see that they have ]red on all four of those articles, although they may have stopped short of breaking 3RR in most cases they are continuing to be disruptive and acting as those they are ]. In they changed the content to state that Burusera products are legal for under 18s to sell, despite clearly understanding that they are not - I would say that amounts to deliberate disruption/vandalism. ---- ]-'']'' -- 19:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Each edit has been an attempt to do one of the following: | |||
| * '''Impose their own unsourced definition of folklore related to Shetland while deleting other users' contributions:''' | |||
| ** {{Pagelinks|Trow (folklore)}} | |||
| *** {{Diff|Trow (folklore)|prev|1135798616|2023-01-26}} — Removed some existing content and added their own. | |||
| **** 2023-01-30 — Reverted by {{no ping|Ghmyrtle}} as "ungrammatical and unsourced." | |||
| *** {{Diff|Trow (folklore)|prev|1138067181|2023-02-07}} — A similar edit, but removing more etymological information. | |||
| **** 2023-03-02 — Reverted by me. | |||
| *** {{Diff|Trow (folklore)|1142457933|1144018862|2023-03-11}} — Two intervening edits were made by ]. This IP address appears to be a shared IP of "Shetlands Islands Council" per its talk page. It has had repeated warnings for disruptive editing. Its overall history is outside the scope of this report, but these two edits appear to share content and style with the previous edits by AsbjornSigurdsson. | |||
| **** IP userlinks: {{IPvandal|195.194.8.230}} | |||
| *** {{Diff|Trow (folklore)|prev|1144035778|2023-03-11, 3 hours later}} — Further deletions and additions. | |||
| **** 2023-03-20 — I reverted this and the two IP edits while keeping the most recent edits by ]. Looking now, this appears to have inadvertently kept the deletion of two references from the Etymology section, "kvam" and "UIB troll", which likely should be restored. | |||
| *** {{Diff|Trow (folklore)|prev|1152199893|2023-04-28}} — Yet more variation in deletions and additions. | |||
| **** Reverted immediately by {{no ping|ClueBot NG}}. | |||
| *** {{Diff|Trow (folklore)|prev|1152289266|2023-04-29}} — Addition of further unsourced content. | |||
| **** This remains on the page. | |||
| * '''Purge Gaelic terminology from an article related to Shetland:''' | |||
| ** {{Pagelinks|Foula}} | |||
| *** {{Diff|Foula|prev|1136530128|2023-01-30}} — Removal of Celtic name. Edit by ]. This is the sole contribution for this IP. The edit summary: "There is no Gaelic or Celtic name for Foula. Gaelic has no place in Shetland or on Shetland." AsbjornSigurdsson uses a nearly identical summary on 2023-02-04, shown below. | |||
| **** IP userlinks: {{IPvandal|86.148.173.22}} | |||
| *** {{Diff|Foula|prev|1136530591|2023-01-30, 4 minutes later}} — Removal of Scots name. | |||
| **** 45 minutes later — Reverted by {{no ping|Ghmyrtle}}, but the IP's edit remained. | |||
| *** Intervening edit — {{no ping|Bruce1ee}} removed the remainder of the Celtic name tag to fix the resulting tag error. | |||
| *** {{Diff|Foula|prev|1137490127|2023-02-04}} — Removal of Scotland from the intro and the Toponym section, leaving malformed text in the process. | |||
| **** 1 minute later — Reverted by {{no ping|Yoshi24517}} because of the malformed text. | |||
| *** 2023-03-20 — I re-added the Celtic name and the deleted remainder of the tag. | |||
| * '''Divorce Shetland from its subordinate relationship to Scotland, instead trying to present it as an independent territory:''' | |||
| ** {{Pagelinks|List of Shetland islands}} | |||
| *** {{Diff|List of Shetland islands|prev|1139716708|2023-02-16}} — Dissociation from Scotland. | |||
| **** 2023-03-02 — Reverted by me. | |||
| ** {{Pagelinks|Shetland}} | |||
| *** {{Diff|Shetland|prev|1142162103|2023-02-28}} — Dissociation from Scotland. | |||
| **** 2023-03-02 — Reverted by me. | |||
| *** {{Diff|Shetland|prev|1143628176|2023-03-08}} — As above, but with further excisions. | |||
| **** 2023-03-20 — Reverted by me. (Two unrelated intervening edits by others canceled each other out.) | |||
| ** {{Pagelinks|Funzie Girt}} | |||
| *** {{Diff|Funzie Girf|1125240364|1143626898|2023-03-08}} — Three revisions. Dissociation from Scotland and other unsourced changes. | |||
| **** 2023-03-20 — Reverted by me. | |||
| ** {{Pagelinks|Out Stack}} | |||
| *** {{Diff|Out Stack|prev|1144096773|2023-03-11}} — Dissociation from Scotland and the UK. | |||
| **** 2023-03-20 — Reverted by me. | |||
| ** {{Pagelinks|MV Hjaltland}} | |||
| *** {{Diff|MV Hjaltland|prev|1155317676|2023-05-17}} — Dissociation from Scotland. | |||
| **** 2023-05-19 — Reverted by {{no ping|Finavon}}. | |||
| * '''Assert their POV regarding Shetland and their intent to continue pushing it:''' | |||
| ** {{Pagelinks|User_talk:AsbjornSigurdsson}} | |||
| *** {{Diff|User_talk:AsbjornSigurdsson|prev|1152214418|2023-04-28}} — Response to my NPOV warning on their talk page. | |||
| :<small>Courtesy ping, {{ping|Cassiopeia|KylieTastic|p=}} also have tried to warn this IP user.</small> -- ]-'']'' -- 19:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I am unsure what should be done at this point, but I believe that my involvement should be limited to the two days in March shown above. Please note that ] appears to have outstanding issues, as discussed above. | |||
| ::While they don't leave edit summaries except for the section headings, it looks like some of their edits were removing inappropriate content from these articles. Can you provide diffs of edits that you find problematic? Generally, when making an argument that an editor is being disruptive, the OP provides diffs that support that accusation and I don't find the one edit you link to serious enough to issue a sanction. I mean, we are already talking about articles that border the line on pornography. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::It's the ignoring warnings and lack of discussion that's the issue, so pointing to individual diffs doesn't show the whole picture. But to give a couple more specific examples: is deliberately misleading, "High school students include those who are legally 18 years old." is obviously a true statement but doesn't relate to the content being removed - which is about Australia's laws on the matter do apply to adults. . I can't see any instance where they removed removed inappropriate content - rather they seem focussed on removing content that mentions any laws. -- ]-'']'' -- 06:38, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == 92.22.27.64 is edit-warring and abusing editors at ] and on talk == | |||
| — ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 13:22, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked ] <sub>]</sub> 21:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| * I think a simple final warning is required here, that if the user persists in trying to claim that Shetland is not Scottish, they can be blocked. ] 16:26, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{IPlinks|92.22.27.64}} | |||
| *:AsbjornSigurdsson hasn’t edited since 17 May. Maybe he’s taken the hint or maybe he’s run out of things to say. | |||
| Can we get help with an editor who is repeatedly adding poorly sourced, fringe theories into ]? They have been warned several times (, , and ). This started due to insertion of poorly sourced fringe material, such as , into the article, including in the lede . Then there was some edit warring , and . Then accusing editors of covering up "mass child rape" when they attempted to clean up the article , , and . The editor doesn't want to engage and keeps reinserting dubious text, including implications about BLPs. ] (]) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I suggest closing this thread for now. If he does this stuff again, he can be blocked, perhaps indefinitely. | |||
| :Also note the causal transphobia as well definitely neads a block. ] (]) 20:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:—<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 22:40, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Looks like the IP has been blocked for a week. ]] 21:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Edit warring on US politicians around the ] == | |||
| == Incivility from Gwillhickers == | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | result = The Lord of Misrule is blocked for edit warring and there is no merit to their retaliatory report. If disruption returns when the block expires, escalating sanctions can be considered. ] ] 04:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| *{{userlinks|The Lord of Misrule}} | |||
| I'm getting caught up into an edit war with {{userlinks|The Lord of Misrule}} regarding the so-called "Gaza genocide" on ], ], and ]. Rather than continue, I am extricating myself and bringing their conduct here. From my attempts on their talk page, including the Arab-Israel, BLP, and American politics (post 1992) contentious topic warnings, are going unheeded. – ] (]) 20:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Any so-called "commentary" has been removed, ie "complicity" and now just facts related to the subject and topic remain, yet here we are. Cheers ] (]) 20:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I would appreciate some guidance in dealing with some chronic ] from {{u|Gwillhickers}}. I have found it difficult to interact with him without him ] me and accusing me of acting in ]. | |||
| :I will note, per the International Criminal Court, any material support for War Crimes, like funding or vetos allowing war crimes to continue in the UN Security Council, are themselves War Crimes https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Elements-of-Crimes.pdf Cheers ] (]) 21:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * In March, he engaged me in a long discussion about how to present the ].<ref>{{slink|Talk:Constitution of the United States|Beard v. Brown...or 160,000 v. 560,000}}</ref> After I argued that we should avoid the phrase ''the people'' without qualification,<ref>]</ref> he said that I was {{tq|bent on the effort of casting aspersions on the U.S.}}<ref>]</ref> (I am not.) After I said that the United States was {{em|not}} the first democracy in America,<ref>]</ref> he repeated that I was {{tq|bent on slighting American history}}.<ref>]</ref> I asked him to assume good faith and stop making personal attacks.<ref>]</ref> | |||
| ::Unless you can find a RS to back that up, that would be OR. ]] 21:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * On 22 March, in {{u|Headbomb}}'s AN/I thread,<ref>{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1123|Consistant gaslighting behaviour by Freoh}}</ref> {{u|Gwillhickers}} referenced what he called my {{tq|obvious SJW behavior}}.<ref>]</ref> I asked him to stop calling me names.<ref>]</ref> His response doubled down on his ] comment, arguing that it did not count as a personal attack.<ref>]</ref> | |||
| :I just reverted TLoM's most recent , {{tq|has vetoed 5 ceasefire agreements.}} when the source says {{tq|vetoed five resolutions, including three calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, one Russian oral amendment, and a proposal for full Palestinian membership in the U.N.}} The '''three''' ceasefire vetoes are already documented in the article. Elevating this to a separate section and misrepresenting the source violate ]. I question whether TLoM should be editing BLPs. ] ] 21:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * In the same conversation, he described my {{tq|apparent attempt to obscure the discussion and ward off any newcomers to the discussion}}.<ref>]</ref> and my {{tq|hope that we will forever be going over these things}}<ref>]</ref> (Neither of these characterizations are accurate.) I reminded him to assume good faith,<ref>]</ref> but he responded that {{tq|good faith went out the window sometime ago}}.<ref>]</ref> | |||
| ::I find this editors removal of information vs an easy correction of the word "agreement" to "resolution" troubling at best and biased at worst. This section is ripe for expansion as more scholarly works will be forthcoming. It seems the editor would rather delete this information rather than correct and provide more information. Cheers ] (]) 21:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * On 27 March, in an unrelated discussion at ], he tried to canvass more editors into the AN/I discussion about me, describing me as {{tq|an editor who routinely tag bombs articles, and then follows up with reverts, multiple proposals over menial items in the middle of unresolved discussions, with pages of endless talk}}.<ref>]</ref> After I warned him to stop canvassing,<ref>]</ref> he deleted the warning without responding.<ref>]</ref> | |||
| :::If {{tqq|more scholarly works will be forthcoming}}, then ] when ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * On 6 April, I argued that {{u|Allreet}}'s proposed text was not ] because it favored a nationalist point of view,<ref>]</ref> which is inherently subjective. {{u|Gwillhickers}} responded that I was making an {{tq|assumption, that a "nationalist" point of view is somehow erroneous or less than accurate}}.<ref>]</ref> This strikes me as ], suggesting that Misplaced Pages should take sides on controversial issues and prioritize the "accurate" point of view. | |||
| :@], they ] by @] on the 17/02/2024. Should this perhaps be best addressed at ]? '']''<sup>]</sup> 21:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * On 25 April, {{u|Gwillhickers}} deleted one of {{u|Maxxhiato}}'s comments.<ref>]</ref> When I showed him the diff and referred him to ],<ref>]</ref> he denied it and accused me of acting in bad faith.<ref>]</ref> When I suggested that he read ] for help reading diffs,<ref>]</ref> he accused me of ].<ref>]</ref> I eventually convinced him that he {{em|had}} deleted the comment.<ref>]</ref> | |||
| ::No need. Blocked for two weeks for edit warring on three pages in violation of ]. If it continues after the block, please simply let me know on my talk page (or re-report here and feel free to notify me). ] (]) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * On 17 May, I suggested that we should not limit the scope of {{slink|Constitution of the United States|Influences}} to {{u|Gwillhickers}}'s {{em|European}} examples, citing a source about Indigenous democracies that served as an inspiration for U.S. government.<ref>]</ref> He accused me of making content decisions {{tq|on the basis}} of race.<ref>]</ref> (I never make content decisions informed by racial discrimination.) I reminded him that Misplaced Pages considers an accusation of racial discrimination to be a personal attack.<ref>]</ref> He replied that his characterization of me was an {{tq|academic criticism}} rather than a personal attack.<ref>]</ref> I tried to clarify my position, citing another source about Indigenous influence on the U.S. founding.<ref>]</ref> He repeated his accusation that was making decisions {{tq|based on race}}.<ref>]</ref> | |||
| :::Will do. – ] (]) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| As you can see, I have repeatedly confronted {{u|Gwillhickers}} about his inappropriate conduct. I have been trying to follow the ] policy, but it has been exhausting and ineffective, and our interactions continue to be unpleasant. I would appreciate any help, whether it is something more that I can do, a second voice that {{u|Gwillhickers}} might listen to, or a good reason for me to simply suck it up.  — <span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span> 16:02, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Given the thread below I think we should discuss a topic-ban here and now, rather than going thru AE. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 21:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :* I see repeated longstanding disruptive behaviour, but I looking at the actual diffs and not the cherry picked quotes, I don't see that behaviour from Gwillhickers. Being criticized is not the same thing as being subject to uncivility.  <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 17:33, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ec}} Perhaps. I was going to initially bring this to 3RRNB but decided to bring it here. – ] (]) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :* "His response doubled down on his ] comment, arguing that it did not count as a personal attack." It certainly does not sound as a compliment. He/she is trying to discredit all of your suggestions and to portray you as an ] of some kind.] (]) 18:31, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Why in the world have you formatted the diff links in this way? It makes them nearly impossible to follow. ''']'''×''']''' 19:13, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I haven't yet looked is to the rights and wrongs of this post, but I see nothing wrong with the way diffs are presented, which looks clearer than in most reports. ] (]) 20:56, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::{{u|Phil Bridger}}, totally trivial issue, but I disagree, as now the reflist section is below the extended "Comments from Gwillhickers" section and one has to scroll down to find the actual link. Freoh seems to be averse to including an https link but also to be avoiding excessive piped links to e.g. to the ] for the same diff... Freoh has been taken to task for their linking habits so perhaps they are just trying to find the best solution. There are basically six possibilities: | |||
| *::# https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=1144040967 | |||
| *::# | |||
| *::# | |||
| *::# ] | |||
| *::# ] | |||
| *::# <ref>]</ref> | |||
| *::Personally I think #2 is the most appropriate for what is being done here, but I don't want to try to dictate to anyone what formatting styles they use. Freoh is being knocked around enough in all this (rightfully so or not) and I feel they are ''probably'' acting completely in good faith in attempting to meet the community's concerns. ] (]) 21:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I'll simply state that anyone calling another editor "SJW" or "social justice warrior" is absolutely violating ]. The term is only used to belittle others and dismiss them as insincere or ignorant. | |||
| :I won't delve into the rest of this report, but that alone is not cool. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 20:43, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| === Removal of legitimately sourced information concerning ongoing Genocide in Gaza === | |||
| <br> | |||
| {{atop|1=Retaliatory. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ;Comments from Gwillhickers: | |||
| {{userlinks|Bbb23}} has removed legitimately sourced information regarding the subject's involvement with the ]. Cheers ] (]) 21:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :* When Freoh is taken to task over various issues he typically resorts to accusing others of "personal attacks", "canvasing", nationalistic bias", "systemic bias", lacking good faith, etc, To demonstrate this, examples include accusations made to {{u|ErnestKrause}} on his talk page See: ]. Here Freoh also accused numerous editors of bias, including {{u|ErnestKrause}}, {{u|Cmguy777}}, {{u|BusterD}}, {{u|Hawkeye7}}, {{u|Indy beetle}}, {{u|Ceranthor}}, {{u|Epicgenius}}, {{u|SNUGGUMS}}, {{u|Randy Kryn}}, {{u|DIYeditor}} and myself. See: ] This is not at all good faith. | |||
| :What subject? ] (]) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@], see the directly above discussion. '']''<sup>]</sup> 21:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Tendentious editor == | |||
| :* As one can hopefully see, the above claims made now by Freoh are tainted with a lot of opinion. While the discussions in question are not of a friendly nature they do not involve outright incivility or "personal attacks", or anything that amounts to disruptive behavior, for which I have been repeatedly accused. The latest issue began on the ] where Freoh said | |||
| :::{{tq| If we are including influences that are not universally accepted, then we should include non-white influences as well.}} | |||
| Single purpose account {{Userlinks|NicolasTn}} is reverting again . They want to expand the lead which is disputed. They have been warned not to edit war. They claim to "restore deletion" most of which introduced by them to the lead, but in the process removing other sourced information and adding back errors. They know where to discuss edits but avoid doing so as much as they can, so I don't think enough discussion exists to initiate dispute resolution. . ] (]) 23:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::To which I replied — "Seeking other such political philosophers simply on the basis that they may be "non white" is not the way to approach matters". | |||
| :It looks like this article page history has been an edit war between the two of you. You both responded at ], why not try to continue that discussion or, eventually, try ]? Neither of you have had made much use of the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'll just note that this editor, who has only made 51 edits, hasn't edited in 3 days so they may not respond here immediately. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::They would probably respond only after being reverted again by me or the other editor. Since their one and only response, they've left the discussion hanging again while actively editing the article. ] (]) 20:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Adillia == | |||
| :* For this Freoh came to my Talk page and accused me by saying "I do not appreciate your accusations of racial discrimination"<ref></ref>, and for "systemic bias" on the Constitution Talk page. No one ever said that we must only include European, or white, influences only, and in several instances I invited Freoh to provide content on any "non-white" influences if such content was covered in reliable sources. | |||
| {{Userlinks|Aidillia}} | |||
| :* Freoh has engaged in similar matters on the Constitution Talk page, once accusing {{u|Allreet}} of presenting a "nationalist point of view", in spite of the fact that numerous reliable sources were cited, historians Freoh also accused of having a "nationalist perspective".. Freoh has had every opportunity to include other perspectives in the article if they are cited in reliable sources, and has never even attempted it. Instead he engages in endless talk for which he has been , by numerous editors in the recent past. ], lasting approximately six weeks, he made numerous and ever-changing proposals and again filled the discussion with endless talk involving spurious POV's for which he received no consensus by the time {{u|S Marshall}} closed that RfC. Now it seems he is about to make the same attempt here with lengthy talk, as his claims above are highly exaggerated or simply distort what has actually happened. | |||
| I've been avoiding that user ever since we were blocked for edit warring on ] but they keep going at every edits I made, specifically the recent ones on the files I uploaded like ] and ], where the file are uploaded in ] and abided ] but they keep messing up. I'm still at lost and not sure what's their problem with my edits. Additional: I will also hold accountability if I did ]. | |||
| :* If there is anything that can be considered truly uncivil or a personal attack, I apologize for that. -- ] (]) 19:36, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Freoh mentions an ] in which he feels he was mistreated. That discussion was started because of his penchant to misrepresent interactions and to "warn" editors for things that they have not done. It then expanded in scope to several different conduct issues, including the ones that Gwillhickers has described in their disputes with Freoh. I have not seen any evidence that Freoh has learned from that discussion, and if anything it appears that the behavior for which Freoh received a logged warning has increased. The worst offense committed by Gwillhickers here is that they have been far too patient with an editor that has wasted an inordinate amount of other contributors' time. ] <small>(])</small> 19:40, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *I was the uninvolved closer of the well-attended ] by ] mentioned in the OP's opening comment. As I mentioned in part one of my closing statement there, ] did not then deny being a clean start account. ]s usually are provided either for victims of egregious harassment or truly repentant contributors, behavioral offenders who have been blocked or banned for cause, and promised a trusted somebody their poor behavior would change. I'll quote the fourth sentences from both the opening paragraphs of that policy page: "It is expected that the new account will be a true "fresh start", will edit in new areas, will avoid old disputes, and will follow community norms of behavior." "The behavior of the new account determines whether it is a legitimate fresh start or a prohibited attempt to evade scrutiny." <br>Normally I'd wish to see a truly odious ANI reporter trouted. In this case, the BOOMERANG may be more appropriate. For my part, I'll concede it's possible I misread that ANI discussion and closed it incorrectly (as merely strongly warning a frequent ]). Based on behavior raised in that ANI and the OP's behavior since the resulting warning, it seems likely the clean start agreement (if any) has been violated many times. In my opinion, this contributor (whatever their current username) has abundantly demonstrated themselves a net negative to the project and should be indefinitely banned from Misplaced Pages for regularly violating the civility policy and the terms of their clean start. ] (]) 22:49, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I did {{em|not}} violate the ] policy. I created this account because my previous account exposed some personally identifiable information. ] indicates that this is a legitimate reason to create a second account. If it would please you, I can privately share my previous account with a ], who can confirm that I did not return to previous discussions. It seems strange to me to accuse someone of sockpuppetry without filing a ] or even identifying the suspected account in violation. Could you explain (with a diff and a ] quotation) how I violated civility policy?  — <span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span> 00:14, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Having a legitimate reason for creating a second account (no matter that reason) doesn't excuse the contributor from violating the parts of CLEANSTART I quoted directly. I contend the behavior of this new account has told me all I need to know to make an informed decision about the contributor. As to diffs (even ignoring everything linked in the ANI thread) let's just observe two threads on your current talk, shall we? First, we have a thread in which admin Doug Weller ] Then we have a thread in which I try to explain that accusing an editor of not getting the point ] is a personal attack. I'm finished answering questions from this editor. ] (]) 01:07, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::'''Agree''' with BusterD, but I believe the major issue was that Freoh was recently taken to task in an by numerous editors for Gaslighting, engaging in never ending argumentative talk while ignoring well reasoned points in a discussion. Shortly thereafter he went to ] and accused numerous editors of bias. The other day he has accused me of "systemic bias". My last comment to Freoh was on the ] where for the third time I invited Freoh to make any contributions supported by reliable sources. He ignored that and instead came here and filed this ANI, and now he is accusing multiple editors here for spreading "falsehoods", and intends to come back in 48 hours and address all the statements with the apparent attempt of further compounding everything in the discussions, individually. Along with the '''ANI of last March''', and his behavior on ErnestKrause's Talk page, one only has to look ] to realize that this pattern of behavior is wide in its range and is persistent. Freoh at virtually any one time is always engaged with editors over the sort of behavior outlined here, and we're supposed to assume in "good faith" that all these editors are somehow wrong .-- ] (]) 02:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{talkref}} | |||
| Note: Aidillia "accidentally" archived this discussion. ] ] 02:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Proposal - User:Freoh is banned from Misplaced Pages for violating WP:Civility and WP:Clean start === | |||
| *'''Support as proposer''' ] (]) 22:49, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Freoh is a persistent timewaster whos sole purpose appears to be to tendentiously argue on talkpages, wasting the valuable time of other Misplaced Pages contributors. They are therefore a net negative to the encyclopedia. ] (]) 22:52, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - The misuse of a clean start is sufficient in itself to ban this editor. By allowing the possibility of a clean start, the community extends AGF to the maximum, trusting that the editor will no longer cause the previous disruption, and the encyclopedia will retain a valued contributor in return. Violating a clean start is therefore a very serious offense against the entire en.wiki community, worse than mere vandalism or disruption: it is a gut punch that rewards a magnanimous gesture with total disdain. ] (]) 23:41, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' a cban for civility and clean start violations, but also more generally for ]. I think the close of the previous ANI discussion was reasonable at the time, as it gave Freoh an opportunity to reconsider his approach and become a more constructive editor. Unfortunately, Freoh did not take this opportunity. He has engaged in the same behavior that resulted in a formal warning, in some cases continuing the same disputes for which he was warned. ] <small>(])</small> 23:58, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' enough is enough. ] (]) 00:16, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''; I remember watching the previous ANI discussion unfold. This pattern has to stop. I'm unsure on the clean start question; we don't know the circumstances of the previous identity. ] ] 00:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' regardless of the clean start, Freoh is simply too combative. From their own presentation of diffs, it seems clear that they frequently twist or distort comments from other editors and then follow-up with condescending warnings. ] (]) 01:10, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''SUPPORT'''. I still maintain that this is the same sockpuppet account that I mentioned the last time this user appeared at ANI. ], perhaps you remember this discussion from last time? He should have been flushed the first time. ] ] 01:14, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I do continue to think that it's quite a lot of similarities to Mrbeastmodeallday/Awolf58, but of course if I could prove that to a satisfactory degree I would have just blocked. Either way, I'll push back on the argument below about "unproven allegations of sockpuppetry": regardless of whether Freoh has ever been blocked before, "misusing a clean start" is ''per se'' sockpuppetry per ]. And ] expects editors to refrain from disruptive editing or else be considered sockpuppets. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 04:26, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::I endorse Tamzin's views. I'm making a case that Freoh has violated the spirit and the wording of ] policy by failing to follow community norms and by demonstrating through their frequent poor behavior in this new account that even a fresh start has not enabled Freoh to learn to act in a way acceptable to the community. I hate to lose an active contributor to Misplaced Pages over behavioral issues, but Freoh continues to have their wrongdoings pointed out and then they keep acting in this civil POV pushing way, despite the warning at ANI just weeks ago. ] (]) 10:37, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{Comment}} It surprises me to see so many people ] about me in a post about incivility. I do not have time to respond to all of the falsehoods right now, but will try to do so within the next 48 h.  — <span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span> 01:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC)<ins>; fixed 20:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC)</ins> | |||
| *:Freoh has once again a misleading piped link (<nowiki>]</nowiki>) in the body of his comment, demonstrating <s>either 1) a lack of competence, or 2)</s> a lack of willingness to verify the consequences of their edit. For the record, the link ] recommends using an ''appropriate forum'' (like this ANI thread commenced by Freoh) in which to discuss bad user behavior, and the OP's own links to previous discussions provide mountains of evidence himself Freoh refuses to acknowledge, being chock filled with frequent demonstrations of bad faith and civil pov pushing. ] (]) 11:05, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::{{TQ|"Demonstrating either 1) '''<u>a lack of competence</u>''', or 2) a lack of willingness to verify the consequences of their edit"}} The misuse of a link is no justification to descend to the level that you believe he is on. ] ] 11:59, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Yet Freoh is quite an artful link piper, and is frequently decried ''because'' of their misuse of misleading piped links, which seems confusing to some and deliberate to others. I came to this subject as the uninvolved closer of the ]; I spent an extensive time reading over the evidence presented, then several days just looking through Freoh's contribution history. I didn't do this reading for my personal pleasure, but to better understand the context of that previous gaslighting thread. I had no dog in that hunt. I came to it with no expectation, as neutral as I could. Here we are ten weeks after my closure and warning to Freoh; Freoh is now on ANI gaslighting us in this thread about Gwillhickers's not taking his gaslighting very well. I'm disappointed. That's my opinion, but it's based on my reading of Freoh's behaviors since the warning, which I have followed closely. In his reckless use of a bad piped link, Freoh makes my case for me. ] (]) 13:22, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::It appears to me that if he fires a volley of these links, then someone steps up to feed him the ammunition. Stating that there is a possible "lack of competence" is a bold way of demonstrating that his reasoning is not unfounded. Others have made similar remarks. He says there is uncivility and disparaging remarks, and so we treat such concern by being uncivil? Maybe he is saying such things because people ''are'' making negative comments about him. This is not to preach about his innocence, but I am awestruck as to how some can cast such heavy stones while bearing such egregious sins. Please, retract the comment. ] ] 13:44, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::It is not the display of gross incivility that you seem to think it is to question the competence of an editor who continually finds their behavior scrutinized at these noticeboards. Indeed, questions of competence are regularly raised in the course of these discussions. Such questions are undoubtedly unpleasant for the editor being scrutinized, but that does not make them uncivil. Furthermore, it is quite apparent that BusterD has spent a considerable amount of time familiarizing himself with this situation, whereas you have not. I would encourage you to tone down your stern rebukes. Your intentions here are clearly good, but you've let your words run ahead of your knowledge. ] (]) 22:26, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Allow me to list the number of reasons where such a comment is appropriate: ] ] 12:12, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::A quick overview will show that the list is empty. This is because by the policy of civility: {{TQ|"it is as unacceptable to attack a user who has a history of foolish or boorish behaviour, or even one who has been subject to disciplinary action by the Arbitration Committee, as it is to attack any other."}} | |||
| *::::::Furthermore, {{TQ|"In general, be understanding and non-retaliatory in dealing with incivility. If others are uncivil, do not respond the same way."}} | |||
| *::::::This doesn't say {{TQ|"One is allowed to question the competence of the editor has a history of being scrutinized."}} If you @] can show me a policy that suggests otherwise, then I will bite my tongue I guess. | |||
| *::::::Either way, I don't want to be the person who points out the specks in everyone's eyes or fight other's battles, but I wouldn't have brought it up if not for the that there is merit to Freoh's claims that people ''are'' making negative comments about him. This happened on a ''proposal for banning him for violating WP:CIVIL that came from the person who started the proposal no less''. His claims are not baseless. Your seeming agreement that such a comment is acceptable is demonstrative and serves to only prove Freoh's claim that people are indeed ]. | |||
| *::::::Typically, in such a case, this would not be demonstrative of innocence. That is, other people being guilty of the same crime obviously does not make Freoh innocent. However, in this case, it sort of does, since, if people are calling into question his use of the terms and invocation of good faith/civility policies, and then are demonstratively making comments that violate such policies, then it can be shown that his assumptions are not unwarranted, disruptive, or assume a lack of good faith. In other words, he is saying that people are being discourteous, and others are willing to prove it for him. | |||
| *::::::There's still a lot that goes into this. For instance, on the ErnestKrause "No Personal Attacks" section, Freoh accused them of making a personal attack. The comment in question from Ernest: | |||
| *::::::{{TQ|A closer look at Freoh's edits other than Quantum computers seems to show him as repeatedly presenting himself into a SJW for the various causes which he considers to be his own, and then to spend hours, days, and even ''weeks'' grinding down other editors who might not agree with his SJW opinions."}} | |||
| *::::::This isn't a random assumption of someone making personal attacks. Maybe it's reasonable to want to not be called an SJW, which is a negative remark. I find it important to mention that ''this comment also came on a thread about Freoh's behavior.'' | |||
| *::::::Such comments are indeed undoubtedly uncivil, and it is not such an outlandish or alien expectation to see them not be made, and least of all on a page about the subject's civility being called into question. As I have said before, if anyone believes Freoh -- or anyone, for that matter -- is uncivil, then why venture to deign and fall to the level they believe he is on? ] ] 12:50, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::I agree that calling editors SJWs is not helpful and can reasonably be seen as uncivil. ] (]) 18:09, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::I suppose the question lies in whether one considers questions about competence to inherently qualify as attacks. I would contend that they are not inherently attacks, and I am not concerned with persuading you. The was unhelpful; if you're going to join the ranks of the civility police, you'll have to start holding yourself to a higher standard than that. I do agree that the SJW comment was uncalled-for, but that doesn't really change the clear and obvious problems with Freoh's behavior. They have a battleground mentality, as has been clearly demonstrated yet again below. ] (]) 21:55, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{hat|Pointless --] (]) 00:48, 7 June 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
| *::::::::Then would you defend asking someone whether they're – ] <small>]</small> 22:10, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::Probably not, but can you point me to a diff in which those words were used? ] (]) 22:22, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::If you click that link, you'll see they're synonyms of ''incompetent''. – ] <small>]</small> 22:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::According to a dictionary that has no knowledge of the nuanced meanings terms can come to have within distinct communities such as Misplaced Pages. I do not think it is appropriate to replace another user's words with synonyms and then to imply that the synonyms are what the user meant. ] (]) 22:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::{{tq|I do not think it is appropriate}} – I can't believe you just called Raven . ] <small>(])</small> 22:42, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::AN/I thread to follow. <small>''''</small> – ] <small>]</small> 22:58, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::That was a thesaurus, whose other synonyms include ''incapable; amateur; bungling; unfit''. Only ''amateur'' there might not be a put-down, and only if used as "not taking pay".<br>The associated contains even worse: "4... a mentally deficient person." – ] <small>]</small> 22:51, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::Still not interested in synonyms, and I'm even less interested in using a dictionary to tell me what words mean in the specific context of Misplaced Pages.{{pb}} Discussions of editor competence are a staple of these noticeboards. If you have a problem with the terminology, you're going to be correcting a lot of people. ] (]) 23:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| *::::::::Apologies if it came across as snide. I meant it to be more humorous than anything else. At any rate, the SJW comment was indeed uncalled for, and since it was pointed out, there is indeed merit to his concerns. ] ] 22:22, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::Perhaps I'd be a better mood for humor if it weren't for your insistence on Zapruder-level analysis of critical comments directed towards Freoh while at the same time you wave a dismissive hand at the extensive evidence of that user's own problematic conduct. ] (]) 22:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::Have I been dismissive? | |||
| *::::::::::{{TQ|"This is not to preach about his innocence"}} | |||
| *::::::::::{{TQ|"That is, other people being guilty of the same crime obviously does not make Freoh innocent."}} ] ] 23:31, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::Brief acknowledgment is not the same thing as meaningful engagement. The bulk of your focus has been on the SJW comment and BusterD's use of the word 'incompetent'. ] (]) 23:39, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::I think there is a slight misunderstanding. For instance, you see the use of "incompetence" in this context as being not outside the realms of civility. In this same sense, I don't see problematic conduct from Freoh. I see him responding to the conduct of comments and behavior. If you want something that isn't about competence and SJWs, then I did say this in my original post: | |||
| *::::::::::::{{TQ|From General Ization in the canvassing link: Sorry, I'm not a party to this debate, and I agree with Freoh it was inappropriate to try to draft me into it based on my contact with that editor concerning a completely different issue in August."}} | |||
| *::::::::::::This isn't any sort of deep analysis, either. This is just clicking on the links provided. I only brought up the comment on competence because, well, it kind of proves the point. ] ] 00:36, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::::::No, it didn't prove any point because the comment on competence was not uncivil. Your obfuscation will help Freoh to get off here with a very light sanction if any, but I'll be shocked if they aren't back at ANI sooner than later. ] (]) 00:53, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::::::::My obfuscation? ] ] 01:38, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::: I should add I deliberately chose to mention WP:Clean start at the beginning of my closure of the gaslighting ANI thread. There's absolutely nothing wrong with fresh starts and the reason for any editor's fresh start is not even our business. As wikipedians we extend fresh start editors, even formerly blocked and banned editors, the same good faith we extend first day contributors. I did not paint Freoh in my closure as a new account in order to tarnish that account, but to put him on notice that his future misbehaviors would be viewed through the fresh start policy lens. My expectation is (again, quoting CLEANSTART): "The behavior of the new account determines whether it is a legitimate fresh start or a prohibited attempt to evade scrutiny." That's the policy. Freoh was notified and warned. Now he's accountable for his actions in that light. ] (]) 13:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - From my observations, Freoh is not disruptive. He displays a creditable degree of curiosity and eagerness to examine potential biases. Although some might perceive these as real, and others imagined, I see Freoh approaching it with brazen determination, and I would never say he wields force or disruptive tactics. While there is a degree of stubbornness, I do not believe he has ever sought to scourge or lame pages and discussions after a consensus has gone against him. I cannot view every alleged attack Freoh has supposedly made. Even in the material linked that is supposedly against him, I don't see anything stand out as being particularly "disruptive". From General Ization in the canvassing link: {{TQ|Sorry, I'm not a party to this debate, and I agree with Freoh it was inappropriate to try to draft me into it based on my contact with that editor concerning a completely different issue in August."}} This one example suggests, to me, that his accusation was not bad faith and appears to be founded in some logic or evidence. Again, I cannot view every instance of this, and I am not exactly a judge on this or anything. I cannot in good conscience puff and trumpet to others that Freoh's comments and approach are from malice or ill will, and such a declaration on my part would, I feel, be an unwarranted condemnation. In the other example provided (no personal attacks regarding ErnestKrause), Freoh had left the comment because he was called an SJW and had SJW opinions. Let any charge that Freoh is against the spirit or goodness of the project be carried out with the same verve to the peers who make comments such as these. — ] ] | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per Maxx, and... I might easily not have !voted at all, but to see "Support"s based on unproven allegations of sockpuppetry and misusing a Clean Start is upsetting in itself. The subject offered to privately provide their prior ID to a CheckUser; surely the conditions of the prior account's closure could also have been confirmed at that time. But none of these "Support" !voters are asking for that confirmation. What to think when people neglect an offer of proof? – ] <small>]</small> 04:12, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Needs to be educated on civil behaviour, not beaten to the ground with a ban. If they're a sock, take them to the board; if there's a clean start violation, let them know that's a problem. We can consider interaction or topic bans though, if that helps. ] 06:25, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Having first-hand experience with Freoh's behavior, including unsubstantiated claims of personal attacks, incivility and edit warring, I support the proposal per above. ] (]) 06:39, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' My instinct is that I don't wish to see Freoh banned because I think they bring some balance to the POV presented on these articles, and at the least raise some good topics for discussion, but I am ''quite'' dismayed that Freoh has not taken the opportunity of the last ANI to tone things down, drop the stick, and avoid generating so much friction and conflict. When a formal warning is issued, the thing to do is avoid the conflicts that lead to it. ] (]) 08:03, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' if the CLEANSTART was to avoid sharing the user's personally identifiable information, it is obviously and clearly irrelevant here. Accusing a CLEANSTART account of sockpuppeteering purely because they are a CLEANSTART account and without any knowledge of the underlying case smells of prejudice to me. No opinion on the rest of the case. --] (]) 11:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:For the record, I have not accused Freoh of sockpuppetry. Freoh used the terminology himself, not me. I have pointed out that Freoh is a clean start account and he is not following those rules. Misplaced Pages has given Freoh an enormous grant of good faith by offering them this restart. Freoh is not keeping their end of the bargain. ] (]) 11:28, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::{{ping|BusterD}} Above you "endorse Tamzin's views" which DID accuse Freoh of ]. If you do not join in that, perhaps you might amend your comment to say so? – ] <small>]</small> 15:20, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::You have misread Tamzin, an editor whose reputation for boldness, agency and good judgement is well-founded. She says: '{{tq|"misusing a clean start" is ''per se'' sockpuppetry per ]. And ] expects editors to refrain from disruptive editing or else be considered sockpuppets.}}' I subscribe wholeheartedly to those views. But as to accusation she writes: {{tq|if I could prove that to a satisfactory degree I would have just blocked.}} Tamzin wouldn't merely accuse. If they have sufficient evidence they might just block. So you've clearly misread Tamzin's actual words. ] (]) 15:51, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::{{re|BusterD}} I suppose it's a bit of semantics. I don't think there's enough evidence of "outright sockpuppetry" to justify a block, but I do think there's very straightforward evidence of a violation of a different part of the sockpuppetry policy, namely misuse of a clean start. Violating that provision is still sockpuppetry, just not the sort that first comes to mind when one hears that phrase. It's no different from when we say an editor may not have engaged in outright socking but then still block them for meatpuppetry (a kind of sockpuppetry). <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 16:48, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::If the previous account was closed due to a release of PI – as stated, with an offer to verify prior ID (which could also verify the conditions of closure) – then "misuse of clean start" isn't an issue, because it wasn't due to misbehavior... and isn't any kind of "puppetry". So it's really odd that we keep having this brought up, without anyone taking up Freoh's offer. – ] <small>]</small> 20:37, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' for lack of civility, disruptive editing and generally NOTHERE. This user's combative relationship with other editors is made plain on their talk page, which features an autobiography mostly made up of spats with others that this user is clearly proud of. There has been no change since the ANI and zero sign that they are willing to change. ] (]) 12:05, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I can understand and appreciate many users' concerns about a ] violation but I believe {{u|.Raven}} brought up an important point about such discussion. Freoh states that their clean start was due to Personally Identifiable Information cropping up adjacent their original account. Without a checkuser to confirm or reject this claim, or even someone claiming they recognize this user from their behavior, '''We have no reason to not believe them per AGF.''' I think most Support !votes so far are not completely predicated on the clean start violation, but it has regardless affected this proposal. Personally, I would suggest an understanding that a clean start for PII concerns is functionally a different mechanic than a clean start to distance oneself from past behavior. The latter is meant to distance one's present editing from their previous work/reputation on WP, while the former is distancing one's present editing from their real life identity, something which should never matter on WP, COI aside. ] (]) 12:40, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''', there just seems too much confusion about the good faith clean start, which may or may not actually be a formal clean start but a volunteer action. Maybe an admin can work with Freoh to clear that up (especially since it's given as half the reason for this indef nom). Aside from that, Freoh seems to walk the line with civility issues but, although I don't follow their edits, might be improving over time and as long as the improvement is in the right direction then that's a personal judgement (remember, indef is serious, so the reasons to apply it seem like they should also be very serious without a chance of a light at the end of the tunnel). ] (]) 14:25, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::'''Comment :''' It seems we're getting a bit side tracked here. One editor introduced the idea of a sock, and I don't think that's the case with Freoh, even though there may be other Fresh-Start issues - I can't say off hand. I was the victim of sock vandalism in several cases (as {{u|Tamzin}} can attest to), and hiding behind a sock doesn't seem to be Freoh's style. The real issue, imo, is the prolonged gaslighting, refusal to drop the stick, and compound accusations to multiple editors time and again, esp after being warned at the ANI of last March. -- ] (]) 16:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hello {{u|Gwillhickers}}. My comment was not about a sock but about Freoh's offer to prove his change of name was legit, which, please notice, is half the accusation against him. Comments below indicate that nobody has yet to take him up on this reasonable offer. Maybe in the light of that you can cut your suggested ban to 16 days, because half of the question may be inaccurate and lots of editors have based their support comments partly on that. Thanks. ] (]) 03:56, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm not so sure about the sock part of it. Only a couple of editors put that on the table. As I've indicated I'm not suspecting anything to do with sock issues, and from what's been posted here, neither are most folks, including {{u|BusterD}}.. -- ] (]) 04:23, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''': I don't think {{u|Freoh}} has done any specific thing that warrants the "capital punishment" of expulsion. While their behavior in prolonging arguments tends to create a toxic environment for other editors, a shorter ban, 48-72 hours, for example, seems more appropriate. It would also serve as a warning to Freoh to "put down the stick", as {{u|Gwillhickers}} expressed it, rather than going on interminably in content disputes. Should they fail to heed the warning and we find ourselves back here in a few months, then the case will be "open and shut", that is, much easier for other editors to decide. My advice to all, including both Freoh and Gwillhickers, is to try to think about "the other guy" once in a while and with that, do whatever you can to make Misplaced Pages a better place to be. ] (]) 21:15, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I tend to agree, given the ANI warning of march, that a temporary block would be more in order. An ''Indef'' is usually meted out for sock issues, serious threats, repeated vandalism and such, which is why I abstained from casting a ''Support'' vote, though admittedly, yesterday I came close to doing so. -- ] (]) 21:27, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'd be more inclined to support a second formal warning, maybe just a simple one like "Freoh is admonished again to tone it down, dial it back, and when appropriate, to drop the stick." ] (]) 22:31, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Freoh already got the formal warning. Failure to sanction obvious violations merely communicates that the warnings are toothless. ] (]) 03:40, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I admit I have been avoiding looking into details of this dispute since the warning because it simply became annoying to me, which is why I left my !vote above at a "comment". Now I feel obligated to look more closely at it. I can see what you mean about ignorance of a formal warning being the last straw before a block. ] (]) 11:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - Enough is enough, The fact tells me all I need to know about this user. Nothing of value will be lost by blocking them. –]<sup>]</sup> 00:00, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:People whose edits are disputed, but do NOT discuss them on talkpages, are called edit-warriors, a deprecated behavior. Instead Freoh engages in article-talkpage discussions ''slightly'' more often than editing articles (39% vs 36%), and this is blockable behavior? Wow. – ] <small>]</small> 02:49, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::No one has asserted that Freoh is an edit warrior, only that this individual has repeatedly been the subject of gaslighting and ] behavior, here at ANI and elsewhere, compounded by incessant accusations to many editors on all sorts of Talk pages. As {{u|Davey2010}} points out, the amount of edits on Talk pages compared to constructive contributions to articles is glaring, and is no coincidence. -- ] (]) 03:01, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Gosh, I'm seeing "incessant accusations" right here, unproven accusations, ''by other people'', of misuse of a clean start, and sockpuppetry – despite Freoh's offer to have his prior ID confirmed (and with that the opportunity to confirm the conditions of its closing), an offer which nobody is even trying to take up. If this sort of treatment had been directed at me, I'd be complaining about it too, and I expect the stress would cut down on ''my'' editing time. Does no-one take responsibility for their effects on others any more? – ] <small>]</small> 03:28, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'm sure that this subthread, which was opened less than '''30 hours''' ago, has probably caused Freoh some measure of stress. But I don't really see how that explains this editor's editing patterns over the preceding '''10 months'''. Mind you, I don't agree that a high rate of talk page participation is inherently problematic, but in this case the evidence has shown a pattern of battleground editing. If you can get an admin to confirm Freoh's claims regarding their previous account, that's well and good, but it won't negate the behavioral issues which IMO are sufficient cause for the community to part ways with this individual. By the way, with regard to that parting shot in your closing sentence, I'm not seeing any indication that Freoh has taken responsibility for the effects of their battleground behavior. You appear to be applying a harmful double standard by minimizing Freoh's own ABF approach to editing while rebuking those editors who are justifiably skeptical about the validity of this cleanstart. ] (]) 04:03, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I can't wrap my head around the fact that several editors are ignoring (if not outright denying) a documented history of disruption because they got caught up on some wording about how clean start editors are expected to hold themselves to a high standard. ] <small>(])</small> 04:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::"unproven accusations"?? – that everyone is just spinning matters out of thin air? The issue, as I've clearly indicated above, is not about sock issues, at least with almost all of us, but prolonged gaslighting, ], and indeed, accusations. The record(s) speaks for itself. Suggest you look into matters more thoroughly. Thanx . -- ] (]) 04:11, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::> ''"... prolonged gaslighting, wp:IDHT, and indeed, accusations."'' – What I see at Talk:Constitution..., for instance, is a sad show of two sides talking past each other. Freoh looks at the influence of the wealthy and powerful on and in state legislatures, which chose the delegates to the Constitutional Convention, and how the Senate (with 3x longer terms than the House, and originally chosen by, thus answerable to, state legislatures, not direct popular elections) represented and embodied privilege; and he pertinently wonders which "We the People" did this structure chiefly serve... especially given who was ''excluded'' from the newly guaranteed rights and liberties. He's met with insistence that the idealistic language of the document answers him, and that he must be anti-American for doubting it. Gaslighting, ], and accusations, indeed. The ad-hominem fallacy, I should add. – ] <small>]</small> 07:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Raven, Why are you posting on what seems to be every ANI/AN thread here? I had to close yesterday because you were ] and you're now here doing the exact same thing. There is more to Misplaced Pages than AN/ANI in case you didn't know. Go do something productive and worthwhile with your time. –]<sup>]</sup> 12:54, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::There is always an orchard to judge except one's own. ] ] 13:10, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::What??? ]] 17:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' a temporary block of at least 30 days. Another warning, on top of the last ANI warning, would be sort of senseless and sends the wrong message to other editors. . -- ] (]) 00:56, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' block of 72 hours - 30 days such as the closer may find consensus for, but I do not yet find reason for a community ban. If this comes up again, at that time I would say third strike and you're out. What swayed me from merely "comment" to supporting a block was a quick investigation into the allegations about race. {{u|Gwillhickers}}, while I don't completely agree with his position, clearly did not make any uncivil accusations about racism, but instead merely observed what I also observe, that Freoh seemed to be making content decisions based purely on racial categories, in a case of the desired conclusion seeming to drive the selection of evidence and citations, rather than the reverse. I think Freoh actually has some good points (which makes it more difficult to support a block), but to just blankly deny that they are making some assertions based on race is disingenuous, and to try to spin that 180 degrees into faulting Gwillhickers is problematic. ] (]) 12:00, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{Disagree|Oppose.}} See {{slink||Response from Freoh}}.  — <span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span> 20:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose indef block''' <small>(E.C.)</small>. First, I do want to make clear that I think this original posting probably should never have been posted here. I think the edits Freoh has presented to show a ''degree'' of incivility, but nothing near egregious enough to warrant action here. Sometimes talk pages get contentious and editors get frustrated. I also think some of the discussions mentioned have involved weirdly forumy tangents, but that's also to be expected. Relatedly, I also think Freoh has been a bit uncivil and also has shown a hypersensitivity (and propensity to come back with ''strong'' reactions) that seems to exacerbate that issue, but snappiness should be sympathetically seen in the context of the discussion. As both the diffs provided and as Maxxhiato pointed out above, there is relevant context here.{{pb}}Second, I'm somewhat alarmed at how quickly people have embraced the indef ban here. I consider myself a decently article-focused editor, but my main space edits also (partially because I've worked on a few RFCs and a particularly contentious article where discussion is usually required for changes). I also think the ] accusations are a bit weak. There's no real evidence that Freoh created a new account to "{{tq|evade scrutiny}}". Frankly, the precise nature of the CLEANSTART accusations are a bit difficult to understand: Is it really being contended that the "expectat" line imposes the threat of an indef block for any violation of community guidelines? I don't actually think that follows from the policy, and, moreover, I think it'd be bad policy: in a discussion full of uncivil remarks, one editor, who created a new account for legitimate reasons, can face an indef ban for their particular uncivil comments?{{pb}}I can understand how Freoh's discussion pattern might be frustrating to some editors—one user expressed frustration that Freoh had made several proposals that ended in no consensus . But while divisive proposals might be bigger time drains than proposals in which every editor disagrees with the proposer, but I think the fact that other editors agree with the proposer actually suggests that further conversation should be had. From what I've seen, Freoh is a good-faith editor whose input should be valued even if it's rarely followed.--<span style="font-family:Georgia">''']'''</span> 21:09, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I've many proof that shows you're the one who start the problem. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:02, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Response from Freoh === | |||
| ::] you revert my correct upload which makes me so offended. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| First, some apologies: | |||
| :::] i upload as per their official social media. But rather used a poster version, and in the end i revert it. Same like what u did to me on ]. I don't know what is this user problem, first upload the incorrect poster than re-upload again with the correct poster which i already uploaded, then need a bot to resize it. (So unnecessary) <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * {{u|BusterD}}, you are correct that I misremembered the ] for ]. My daughter started crying just as I finished the post, which distracted me. In my rush, I did not double-check the link. I also forgot to sign that post until a few minutes later,<ref>]</ref> after my daughter had partially calmed down. I apologize for misleading you. | |||
| :::I reverted that because it was too early to say that the poster is indeed the main one at that time when it was labeled as . You know that we rely more on ] ] ] rather on official website or social media accounts as they are ], so I don't know why you were offended by a revert. ] ] 04:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * {{u|Gwillhickers}}, I am sorry that my most recent user page warning was more accusatory than it should have been. In retrospect, I realize that I was not clear about what frustrated me, so I will try to explain (more politely) here. The way that I see it, there are two different kinds of bias on Misplaced Pages: {{em|intentional}} (bad-faith) editor bias in opposition to Misplaced Pages's second pillar,<ref>]</ref> and {{em|unintentional}} (good faith) editor bias that is to some extent unavoidable.<ref name="biased">{{slink|WP:Tendentious editing|What is tendentious editing?}}</ref> By suggesting that you expand the Influences section to include non-white examples, I was trying to point out what I saw as an {{em|unintentional}} bias that skewed the page toward white people. It is not that I want to include others {{tq|on the basis}} that they are non-white; it is that I felt your proposal was (unintentionally) unbalanced. When you suggested that I wanted to include {{tq|other such political philosophers simply ''on the basis'' that they may be "non white"}}, I interpreted that as an accusation of {{em|intentional}} race-based bias on my part. I see now that there are multiple ways to interpret these comments, and I should have aired my grievances more politely. | |||
| ::::Why you don't say this on the summary? or u can just simply discuss it on my talk page. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 04:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| A few points on my editing philosophy: | |||
| :::::] and ]. I have other ] in real life. ] ] 08:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * There is a difference between being {{tq|combative}} and ''confrontational''. Misplaced Pages policy forbids the former,<ref>]</ref> but it encourages the latter.<ref>]</ref> I agree that I am more confrontational than most editors, and I am not afraid to confront others when I feel that their behavior is out of line. Ultimately, I am not doing this to pester others, but to encourage others to strengthen ]. | |||
| ::::::If you're that busy, please stop reverting my edits/uploads without any clear explanation. Just like what you did on ]. You will just engaged in ]. I've also seen you revert on ]; someone reverted it to the correct one (which I uploaded), but you still revert to your preferred version without leaving an edit summary. <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 08:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * There is a difference between {{tq|disruption}} and ''disagreement''. Misplaced Pages policy forbids the former,<ref>]</ref> but it encourages discussion when the latter arises.<ref>]</ref> I have focused my efforts on areas which I believe could better adhere to Misplaced Pages's neutrality policies, pages where I disagree with the existing content. As far as I know, this is not forbidden,<ref>]</ref> and this focus falls within the scope of the ] WikiProject. I am not trying to be a pain, but I {{em|do}} end up in more content disputes as a result of my focus. I suspect that ] tendencies play a role in the way that other editors defend their content (but I do not accuse anyone of egregious ]). | |||
| :I have partially blocked both of you from editing filespace for 72 hours for edit warring. I think an IBAN might be needed here. ] (]/]) 03:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Every editor is biased,<ref name="biased"/> and everyone is welcome to share their opinions about content, as long as they follow the policies and guidelines. As I explained on {{u|ErnestKrause}}'s talk page,<ref>{{slink|User talk:ErnestKrause|Canvassing}}</ref> I did not mean to accuse all of those editors of bias; rather, I intended to point out that ErnestKrause's selection of notified editors was significantly skewed toward those who had previously expressed favorable opinions. This seems like a clear-cut case of ], and I still do not understand why people are more upset with my warning than the canvassing itself. | |||
| ::'''Support''' an indefinite two-way interaction ban between D.18th and Aidillia. They've also been edit warring at ]. Also look at the move log there, which is ridiculous. These people need to stop fighting with each other. ] ] 06:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I agree with {{u|GabberFlasted}} that a user who had a clean start because of personally identifiable information should not be penalized for it. | |||
| * "Wasting time" is far too subjective to be a blockable offense on its own. | |||
| I feel that my behavior {{em|has}} changed since the previous AN/I thread. | |||
| * I have not edit-warred at all. | |||
| * Looking at the XTools breakdown,<ref></ref> it should be clear that I am {{em|not}} the only one prolonging the discussion at ]. | |||
| * I reached out to BusterD for help,<ref>{{slink|User talk:BusterD|When do minority opinions disrupt Misplaced Pages?}}</ref> hoping that I could better understand the line between an "uphill battle"<ref>{{slink|WP:SNOW|What the snowball clause is not}}</ref> and a discussion that is officially dead.<ref>]</ref> Ironically, I had to drop the stick in that discussion, as BusterD seemed to lose interest in actually explaining this distinction, pointing instead to my {{tq|lack of support}} among AN/I participants as his evidence of disruption.<ref>]</ref> I would still appreciate someone clarifying the official policy surrounding this distinction. | |||
| Several people have cast aspersions against me in this discussion, and I worry that people responding to the survey may change their minds in light of the facts: | |||
| * {{tqq|When Freoh is taken to task over various issues he typically resorts to accusing others of "personal attacks", "canvasing", nationalistic bias", "systemic bias", lacking good faith, etc}}. These user warnings are not my ''resort''. They are real concerns, and I send these warnings for incivility even when {{em|my}} civility is not in question.<ref>{{slink|User talk:Johnuniq|No personal attacks}}</ref> | |||
| * {{tqq|Freoh has had every opportunity to include other perspectives in the article if they are cited in reliable sources, and has never even attempted it.}} False.<ref>]</ref> | |||
| * {{tqq|Freoh mentions an ANI discussion in which he feels he was mistreated. That discussion was started because of his penchant to misrepresent interactions and to "warn" editors for things that they have not done.}} I am not aware of any warnings I have sent without good cause, except for the one mentioned earlier, which was unintentional and I retract. | |||
| * {{tqq|Freoh was recently taken to task in an ANI of March by numerous editors for Gaslighting, engaging in never ending argumentative talk while ignoring well reasoned points in a discussion.}} I have never gaslit anyone, and I have not ignored any well-reasoned points. | |||
| * {{tqq|... he should have blocked you for making personal attacks on Headbomb in the ANI thread.}} I made no personal attacks on {{u|Headbomb}}. | |||
| * {{tqq|... misleading piped link in your edit summary ...}} The edit summary had no ].<ref>]</ref> | |||
| * {{tqq|... for the third time I invited Freoh to make any contributions supported by reliable sources.}} No, you did not. You asked me to {{em|present}} reliable sources after I had already presented two. | |||
| * {{tqq|Freoh is a persistent timewaster whos sole purpose appears to be to tendentiously argue on talkpages, wasting the valuable time of other Misplaced Pages contributors.}} No, my main purpose is to help articles adhere to Misplaced Pages's neutrality policy, and ] end up wasting {{em|my}} time in this process. | |||
| * {{tqq|The misuse of a clean start is sufficient in itself to ban this editor.}} I did not misuse a clean start. | |||
| * {{tqq|Unfortunately, Freoh did not take this opportunity.}} I did, as explained earlier. | |||
| * {{tqq|... they frequently twist or distort comments from other editors}}. If I did this, it was accidental, and if you feel that someone's meaning was distorted, then let me know so that I can fix it. | |||
| * {{tqq|... this is the same sockpuppet account that I mentioned the last time this user appeared at ANI.}} No, I am not. | |||
| * {{tqq|... the OP's own links to previous discussions provide mountains of evidence himself Freoh refuses to acknowledge, being chock filled with frequent demonstrations of bad faith and civil pov pushing.}} No, I have always acted in good faith, and the only POV that I push is a {{em|neutral}} POV. | |||
| * {{tqq|... it is quite apparent that BusterD has spent a considerable amount of time familiarizing himself with this situation}}. No, they have not. As mentioned earlier, when I asked them about the specifics, it seemed they were basing their decision mainly on the comments of others. | |||
| * {{tqq|... unsubstantiated claims of personal attacks, incivility and edit warring ...}} All of the warnings I left at your page were accompanied by diffs that substantiated the claims. | |||
| * {{tqq|... spats with others that this user is clearly proud of ...}} I am not proud of these spats. You are the first person who has taken offense to my user page, and I just deleted it. | |||
| * {{tqq|Freoh seemed to be making content decisions based purely on racial categories}}. No, I was not. I was making content decisions based on reliable sources. | |||
| Some things that I will work on: | |||
| * I will spend more time editing articles and less time on talk pages. | |||
| * I will tone down any future user warnings so that they are friendlier, more specific, and more helpful. | |||
| * I will be more proactive in starting ] when it is clear that a discussion is not going anywhere. | |||
| * I am open to other questions that you would like me to answer. | |||
| TL;DR: I am not perfect, but I am improving, and far too many people here are casting aspersions against me.  — <span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span> 20:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :It was the best of apologies, it was the worst of apologies. While I sincerely appreciate that you have apologised, the fact that you immediately followed those apologies with a laundry list of grievances and a frivolous attack on BusterB (that you only withdrew because no one supported it) suggests to me that you are not truly willing to change. The main issue for me is that you have a combative relationship with other editors, and your response does little to show that you are either willing or able to move beyond this kind of hostile interaction. I noted above that I think you have been subject to some mild incivility, which is of course wrong, but that does not excuse your behaviour. I suspect that the likely outcome will be a temporary ban, and I sincerely hope that you will prove me wrong and learn to participate in this project with the spirit of cooperation. ] (]) 00:30, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| === User:D.18th === | |||
| {{reflist-talk}} | |||
| {{atop|1=Withdrawn. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{Userlinks|D.18th}} | |||
| <s>This user keeps coming to wherever i made an edit. And this user also ignore ].</s> <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Proposal: BusterD boomerang === | |||
| {{hat|closer=Freoh|2=This is an attempt to avoid future disruption, not a {{tq|revenge filing}}, but I will withdraw it per ].  — <span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span> 22:00, 6 June 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{u|BusterD}} has demonstrated an inability to assume good faith. When I asked them for help, they indicated that they were basing their decisions on comments made about me, and was unwilling to consider the possibility that these other editors were misrepresenting me. They threatened me with a block {{tq|purely for overlinking in talk page discussions}},<ref>]</ref> and less than 35% of their edits are to mainspace,<ref></ref> so I think that a six-month ] from ] would help {{u|BusterD}} contribute to the project in more helpful ways.  — <span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span> 20:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes this is definitely a good way to show you are not combative. --] (]) 21:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{reflist-talk}} | |||
| * {{Works for me|Support}} as proposer.  — <span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span> 20:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' — massive wall of text, in addition to the fact that this proposal makes little sense. ] (]'''-''']) 21:02, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''': I do think BusterD has been a bit quick to jump to conclusions here, but if that behavior is deserving of a block, then I'm not sure how the proposer's behavior does not. To be clear, I think neither should be blocked. Also, I have to add: above, I mentioned that Freoh seemed to have a hypersensitivity and, more serious, a propensity to retaliate in uncivil ways. Those traits aren't helpful. Unfortunately, I think this proposal is an example of those traits in action.--<span style="font-family:Georgia">''']'''</span> 21:12, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Oppose''' Reading the diff for "threatened me with a block purely for overlinking in talk page discussions" shows a disturbing misrepresentation of BusterD's comment. ] ] 21:23, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' the tide seemed to be turning against a cban for Freoh, but I suspect they may have just turned it back. This revenge filing was ill-advised to say the least. ] (]) 21:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| <s>:This user is the most number one who often comes in on my talk page first. But when I came to their talk page, i got restored or, worse, got reverted as vandalism.</s> <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 03:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Discussion === | |||
| :{{re|Aidilla}} You have failed to notify {{User|D.18th}} of this discussion, as the red notice at the top of the page clearly requires. I know they already reported you above, but they may not be aware of your one in return. You will need to show clear diffs supporting the allegations that you've made; expecting us to act on this report with no such evidence is likely going to result in ]. Regards, ]. (] | ]). 04:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Ahem.''' Not just gaslighting anymore, we see. Thank you, ], for your BOLD. Bold is a great starting place for a wikipedian. Unfortunately CIVIL is a pillar. Allow me to wax BOLD: If you can't bring civil to your game, you can't play here. I should offer User:Freoh and the community an apology. It might have been wise if I'd merely proposed what DIYeditor offered during the gaslighting discussion: {{tq|if this warning is not heeded, a '''narrowly construed topic ban from history, human civilization, politics, government and science be put in place.''' DIYeditor — (talk) 00:00, 22 March 2023 (UTC)}} In any event, we still need to deal with this user, not just decline to sanction them. I'm perceived to be involved now. So I'll let the community wrap this up. ] (]) 14:03, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::], you can't remove a post from ANI once it has been responded to by another editor. If you want to rescind your complaint then strike it by using code, <nowiki><s>Comment</s></nowiki> which will show up as <s>Comment</s>. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'll deign to add: we might need to start asking the block and ban question to admin candidates again because a number of editors in the discussion above are using the terms interchangeably. If I wanted to block Freoh, I've already seen sufficient bad behavior and presented adequate evidence to defend myself from bad block charges. Any admin could block. Anytime. I have stubbornly chosen not to block. I have instead proposed the community sanction with some form of ban. A ban derives from consensus, not one rogue sysop. ] (]) 14:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{done}}, thanks! <span style="font-family:Cursive">]<sup>(])</sup></span> 05:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == User:Azar Altman and User:Farruh Samadov == | |||
| == {{userlinks|Rickmoede}} == | |||
| {{atop|result=All of the named parties have been indefinitely blocked with checkuser blocks. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 20:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|Azar Altman}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|Farruh Samadov}} | |||
| {{user|Azar Altman}} was ] for uncivil conduct and MOS violations. Shortley after their initial 72-hour block on December 27, a new user named {{user|Farruh Samadov}} appeared. One of their edits at ] is , the capital of Uzbekistan, in violation of ]. They did this three more times (, , ). And then Azar Altman reverted again twice (, ), leading me to suspect that Farruh Samadov is a ]. Both users edit in the Uzbekistan topic area and both user talk pages have warnings for MoS violations, but Samadov has never used uncivil language, as Altman did on their user talk and in their second edit I linked. –] (]]) 04:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I opened a a couple hours ago. It is indeed highly suspicious that Farruh Samadov was created only a few hours after this block was imposed. ] (]) 04:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] mentality and personal attacks - see . They then proceeded to wikihound me in a later discussion they didn't even participate in - . They then proceeded to post these two comments: , accusing me of "abuse of power" and such. Smells like NOTHERE to me. -- ]]] 19:16, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Pinging @] who was involved in the prior ANI and performed the block. ] ] 04:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The diffs you've linked do not smell like much of anything to me; it's a Rose Mary stretch to claim that some guy saying an article is wrong and he wants to edit it to be correct is ]. To give some comparison here, imagine if the lead of ] said "{{tq|'''Barack Hussein Dingle-Dangle Cherrychomper Obama XVI''' (born August 4, 1361) is an alligator who served as the 489th president of the United States}}". Am I ]ing by reverting that ''']'''×''']''' 19:24, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Suggest these accounts to be blocked as soon as possible if sockpupperty is confirmed. ] (]) 05:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Nope, certainly not - but then again, accusing me of "abuse of power" wasn't the best of things to do, IMO. -- ]]] 19:28, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::], yes, that's how that goes. ] (]) 13:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't think we can expect everyone to be completely familiar with our bizarre and obsessive jargon. Sure, calling it an "abuse of power" is gauche, but Misplaced Pages nerds would take it seriously if he said "failure to ] that indicates ]ership, inappropriate ] use". This seems like a content issue at best. ''']'''×''']''' 19:37, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Regardless of SOCK, suggest that Azar receive another block of at least a week for continued disruption shortly after the block was lifted. They were reverted twice (as noted above) for the same edit by two different editors (Laundry and Melik). Their most recent edit summary was {{tq|Stop discriminating by violating Misplaced Pages rules.}} when MOS was specifically mentioned in the prior edit summary and they are abundantly notified about edit warring and not reverting-reverts. ] ] 05:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Surely, pointing out abusive and irresponsible parties in power is well with Misplaced Pages rules. And the conversation I joined seemed to be entirely related to the edits I appropriately made and you quote inappropriately undid. It also points continuing irresponsibly behavior on your part. ] (]) 19:24, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ::I would not describe these reverts as an "abuse of power"; Prodraxis does not have any more right to edit the page than you do. On the purely content-based side of this issue, I think that your objection to the passage (that it's overly biased) may have some merit, but removing it entirely seems like an unpromising approach; surely some of that stuff should be mentioned. While the ANI filing seems unwarranted, I think that if you keep pursuing this line of inquiry the way you are, it is likely to result in some sort of sanction; you would probably be better served to try and copyedit what's there, or start a ] if you feel very strongly about taking it out. ''']'''×''']''' 19:37, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{ping|JPxG}} Yeah, I agree on that - instead of complete removal maybe rephrasing for neutrality would be a better choice to do. I do have to admit, Rickmoede's statement that the Enneagram article does need to be more neutral certainly has merit. But then again, I initially reverted their edit due to it appearing to be unexplained content removal as there was no edit summary. | |||
| :::{{ping|Rickmoede}} I'm sorry for any inconveniences I caused, if I caused any. I understand that you were trying to improve the article, and I am sorry if what I did got in the way of it. You did not have a mentality of "righting great wrongs" as I have said before - this largely seems to be some sort of misunderstanding caused by the lack of an edit summary. For more information on that, please read ] which explains what an edit summary is (a brief statement which summarizes what you did while editing the article.) Next time, just to avoid conflicts like this, perhaps you can try to rephrase the content instead of removing it and use removal as a last resort solution like JPxG said. -- ]]] 19:49, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Sockpuppetry in Philippine articles == | |||
| ==Disruptive editing by Modern peter== | |||
| {{userlinks|Modern_peter}} | |||
| Request an immediate and extended range block for {{User|49.145.5.109}}, a certified sock of LTA ] from editing ] and other related pages pending a result of a protection request, the second to have been filed for that page after the first instance of sockpuppetry by the same account was deemed not serious enough. See also ]. ] (]) 07:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Well, another day, another problem on a political party. This time the user called ] with less than 80 edits. And I don't believe this user is a sockpuppet account, but he clearly does not know the rules here on Misplaced Pages or is acting in bad faith by aggresively dismissing my warnings when I told him to explain his edits. ]] has had these type of problems before when it was semi protected, and there has been discussions and long standing consesus of their ideology box as evident in talk. This user, a day ago, precedes to delete "left-wing", removing two reliable sources who state the position, including Reuters , calling it a "small edit", and radically replaces it, calling it "far-right" with ] research under another "small edit" disguise although it is over 1500 characters. I of course start with taking a look at the sources and its evident they are all original research as none are backed up by ] or academic sources. The second problem appears that none explicity state far-right, so the user has both removed reliable sources and made assumptions which violates ] and ], without even seeking out a consesus or at least discussion. I conclude that the logicial conclusion is to revert it back to the orginial form, and tell him to take it to discussion, and seek a consesus, along with providing ] backed sources for such a change as its way too radical . He responds with calling me a vandal , I again repeat to de-escalate and explain his changes in talk and give him a warning that he will be reported for violating rules if he continues, and he disrespectfully reverts and calls me a vandal again, ignoring any discussion as he is a "party supporter", whilst he claims "that the party decides the ideology" and not ] which violates ]. Obviously not willing to discuss his changes, he instead just leaves me a message that "I am a vandal" , and that presents with me with the only option to report his disruptive editing as these violations along with the attacks towards me are unacceptable and tragic. Thank you. ] (]) 20:45, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :It seems like this should be reported at ], not at ANI. That's where the checkusers are at although they are generally reluctant to connect an IP account with a blocked sockpuppet. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :There are multiple false assumptions made here either due to trying to feel a power over others or something else silly. Any and all sources provided considering “Far-right” were already on the same page in a different section. No new outside sources were brought in. If you want to undo the section of the page that already had said source that are ALREADY considered ], I suggest you bring it to the Talk section instead of wasting administrators time. This would be considered ] of taking down an edit of an already reached consensus. I then warned you as so for vandalism as it is considered. Again I feel the need to repeat myself, if you want to dispute the sources that have been on the page for months now, I suggest bringing it up in Talk rather than wasting the administrator’s time. I would consider this user to be quite agressive, it is sad to see an “experienced” Misplaced Pages editor fall into this path. ] (]) 21:24, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is already confirmed in the SPI. However, as it is an IP account that can't be indeffed, I'd had to check my calendar too often to see when their existing block expires. 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) ] (]) 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::This user has proceded with reverting the ANI warning on his user page and he has no activity in talk which raises questions in his response to this thread: . None of the "far-right" sources were on the page until yesterday where his comment says "months", which is evident in history , and he removed the ] backed source calling it "update" and his ”minor edits" of radically changing the page. Along with his violations of ], ] and accusing me of being a vandal, there is no mention of far-right under political position in talk which makes me wonder where he thinks he has the consesus. Unserious response and action by the user to this matter, which should give ANI everything it needs to know. God damn lucky that we have edit history. I feel like everything has been said, so I’ll leave this here now. Thank you and have a good day. ] (]) 21:43, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::I keep my Talk page clean because I am a perfectionist, not that I need to explain that to you. As for the continued false allegation of these sources not existing before, I would direct you to ] section of the page to look for yourself and see these sources already existed and already reached a consensus. Again, NO NEW SOURCES were brought in by me, they were all brought in from this section of the page and already used PREVIOUSLY. The “minor edits” check box may have been a misclick. The user is reminded to maintain a civil conversation: ]. Any further incivility will lead to a warning in addition to your current ] warning. The user did not even take a slight glance and refuses to believe the sources that have already reached a consensus that were not even brought in by myself. I strongly urge administrators to take the proper action for ] ] (]) 21:56, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::<sub>For what it's worth, reverting comments and especially templates on your own talk page isn't generally an issue. How editors archive their page is their own business.</sub> --] (]) 21:56, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ping|BastianMAT}} I have no idea who is right or wrong here because you have not linked to ]. Please provide links such as , rather than, as you did, such as , so we can see what this editor did. ] (]) 22:14, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :: {{ping|User:Phil Bridger}} Sure, I’m on the phone, so hopefully the links now are ]. His changes: , , , , . Comments when I revert the changes: , . No activity in talk page: . It is also worth mentioning, the four sources added to the infobox, are not considered ]/considered ] and do not mention far-right; example of a source he used , and he said in this thread, he did take them from the allegations of facism section which raises questions of ] too. Two other users have also told him off now; , . I have to admit, pretty hurtful comments too of the user calling me a vandal. ] (]) 22:53, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Reading Page History without any knowledge of this current thread means nothing and is irrelevant. Regardless of this outcome from admin: From my understanding, the sources are considered agreed upon which you have DENIED this whole thread as them even having EXISTED before until this very point and removing sources and edits with a consensus would be considered vandalism. Although now we also have a disagreement about it being ] as all the sources are very straightforward and you don’t need to connect any dots to get to a conclusion. ] (]) 23:07, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == VZ Holding == | |||
| == Mass ] and ] == | |||
| {{atop|1=OP has been pointed to ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{articlelinks|VZ Holding}} | |||
| VZ Vermögenszentrum - this user named after their ] is heavily editing their bank wikipedia page. should be banned or warned at least. --] (]) 12:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| A user named ] has been mass-adding flags, rank insignia and URLs to the infoboxes of U.S. military unit articles, in contravention of the principles in the Wiki header. In particular, they have done so to the leadership portion of the infobox. The ''Leadership'' portion displays the unit's current senior leadership. While there is no set rule for which leadership should be in the infobox, typically the highest leadership - unit commander, unit deputy commanders (in bigger units, this may be multiple military and civilians) and senior enlisted leader (Army ], Navy ], etc.) are included. | |||
| :It is nearly six months since they made an edit. ] (]) 12:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::yes, you are right. If I see something similar in the future, where should I drop a notice? ] (]) 14:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Usernames for administrator attention (WP:UAA, I think), would be the first place to go, followed by WP:COIN, then depending on user response either to the renaming page or to AIV. ] (]) 14:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I will jot it down. many thanks ] (]) 14:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * ] is being violated by persistent addition of rank insignia and rank flags next to the leader's name. Certain reversions, when noticed, are quick to be un-reverted. | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| * ] is far more disruptive here. This user tends to add many non-leadership positions to the infobox (chief of staff, deputy chief of staff, foreign policy advisor), as long as such names are present on the unit's official website (for example, has the chief of staff and foreign policy advisor). This leads to overlinking as the user doesn't use citations for them; instead directly linking to external pages. Additionally, it poses a logistical issue - frequent turnover in military leadership (several a month) means that any excess information is more likely to become outdated over time. This results in tedious editing to keep articles up-to-date. | |||
| == SeanM1997 == | |||
| These edits are not obvious vandalism, making them hard to recognise until a pattern has formed or a user already dedicated to reverting ] violations like Abraham B.S. has reverted them. Even so, such edits are then un-reverted, though due to the aforementioned mass-editing and lack of attention to these U.S. military articles (meaning less frequent reverts), it is difficult to find examples of ]. I request assistance and advice here as the incredibly expansive array of edits means it will be a hassle for a single user to revert them all, should they be found invalid. | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub>}} | |||
| *{{User|SeanM1997}} | |||
| User seems to think that sourcing is only clutter and keeps removing source requests and sometimes even sources. This despite ] and ]. Warnings and request completely fall on deaf ears. This is damaging the encyclopedia. See for example on Manchester Airport which show (in the edit summery) that he has no clue about what independent sources are. And where he removed sources for the connections with some unsourced additions and a source for the airline. | |||
| I have separate concerns of ], but see ] and ] for that. ] (]) 04:43, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Just to note I fixed the username link above. ] (]) 04:48, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Sorry but Misplaced Pages relies on the distribution of responsibility. It is not reasonable to expect people here to become familiar with the background then try to engage with {{user|ACPP10122728}}. Instead, anyone noticing a problem has to start a discussion on an article talk page or a user talk page and gently explain standard procedures. If there is no response despite, say, three such polite attempts without templates, then you could post here. Or, report after there is a response and a few repeated attempts are rebuffed. I can't see any attempt to engage with ACPP10122728. ] (]) 08:16, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Noted with thanks. ] (]) 11:21, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *I have posted to {{U|ACPP10122728}}'s TP, explaining the relevant guidelines and why their edits are of concern. I have also asked them to review their contributions in light of the advice provided. Hopefully this will resolve the issue. I note that {{U|SuperWIKI}} has overwritten the ANI notice on the TP and effectively deleted it, while I was posting my message there. I don't think that was quite the right way to go about things, since I was effectively making a response based on this ANI. While the particular user hasn't seen it, others have. If anything, it probably should be redacted with a note. ] (]) 13:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{U|ACPP10122728}} continues to make problematic edits to infoboxes, though the nature of these edits has changed following my initial post to their TP. I have further posted to their TP in regard to their most recent edits. I believe that developments deserve further monitoring. ] (]) 11:25, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Combined with ], giving him a ], I think something has to be done. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">] ]</span> 12:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Roxy the dog == | |||
| :Reading SeanM1997's talk page is a depressing saga. I have indefinitely blocked the editor for persistent addition of unsourced and poorly sourced content for years, despite being warned repeatedly. The editor can be unblocked if they promise to provide references to reliable sources 100% of the time. ] (]) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::It should be noted that SeanM1997 has in the past posted a tweet to support something, then used a news story referencing his tweet as a source to insert into an article. Despite many years and many many conversations, they don't/won't understand the concept of independent reliable sources. ] ] 17:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Deegeejay333 and Eurabia == | |||
| * ] | |||
| Much of the activity of the infrequently active user {{userlinks|Deegeejay333}} appears to be attempts to whitewash anything to do with the ], attempting to present it as "fact", despite the fact that scholarly sources have consistently defined it as a conspiracy theory (see , ). I think this makes them ]. ] (]) 17:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{tqb|Hardly deadnaming, Manning was very well known, and still is, by both <em>his</em> pretransition and her posttransition names. A bit of an over reaction Maddy. }} | |||
| : Notifed their talkpage . Despite their long periods of inactivity, their most recent activity is today . ] (]) 17:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The rest of their edits on unrelated topics seem unobjectionable. I think page blocks would get the job done in preventing further disruption (I can't get around to doing that right now, but that's my two cents). ] (]/]) 17:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Really? You see nothing wrong with {{diff|Nathan Phillips (activist)|prev|879336081|these}} {{diff|Enhanced interrogation techniques|prev|871177370|edits}}? --] 17:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yeah. It does kind of look like this editor is ] except to do battle with the terrible forces of Misplaced Pages leftism. ] (]) 17:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I did a quick look; I didn't look at all of their edits. I agree that edit is also problematic. ] (]/]) 17:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::White-washing ] was also the very first edit they made at Misplaced Pages as well as their most recent. This is an ongoing issue. ] (]) 18:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Wigglebuy579579 == | |||
| This comment may seem relatively innocuous to the unfamiliar, but it is a part of Roxy the dog's long history of transphobic editing. See in particular ] arbitration enforcement thread and ] topic ban and the connected history on ] and Roxy the dog's user talk page. | |||
| *{{Userlinks|Wigglebuy579579}} keeps engaging in disruptive editing behaviour: | |||
| # they created dozens of articles by copy-pasting AI-generated text; | |||
| # they ignored all warnings onto their talk{{nbs}}page; | |||
| # they duplicated draftified articles by simply recreating them. | |||
| {{U|Miminity}} and I have been cleaning the mess for hours, warned him several times, but he just ignores everything and starts again.<span id="Est._2021:1736271756958:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators'_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt">{{snd}}] (] <b>·</b> ]) 17:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)</span> | |||
| : I would support indefinitely blocking this user. Their output is entirely low quality AI-generated slop, and they are contributing nothing of value to the encyclopedia while placing considerable burden on others. ] (]) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :], can you provide some examples so we don't have to search through their contributions? Thank you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: Some pertinent examples ] (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and ] (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. ] (]) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|Liz}} Examples include: | |||
| :::#], ] and ]; | |||
| :::#] and ]; | |||
| :::#] and ]; | |||
| :::#]; | |||
| :::among others. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{Ping|Liz}} This editor left a message on my talkpage and again it is clearly written by AI. ] '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 00:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Are any of the references in ] real or are they all hallucinations? I'm having trouble finding them on web searches. They're also suspiciously old even though there is more recent relevant literature. — ] ] 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The ] essay recommends G3 for articles for which text-source integrity is completely lacking. — ] ] 01:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|rsjaffe}} Using BookFinder.com, Citation #1, #3 (might be a dupref of 1) does exist but has different author, Citation #2 does exist and is correct. #4 is dupref of #2. A quoted google search and a google scholar search about #5, 8, 9, 11 (The journals does not seem to even exist) yields no result. No result for 6, 7, 9, 10 (Nagaland State Press does not seems to even exist) 12 '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 02:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I would like to hear from @], but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. — ] ] 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Click all the link on the ], all of them are {{tl|failed verification}}. Either the page does not exist or the website itself does not exist. The JSTOR sources leads to a completely unrelated article. I think by the looks of it, this draft is safe to delete | |||
| ::::{{ping|Wigglebuy579579}} care to explain? '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 03:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*] and ], thanks for supplying examples that can be reviewed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| This issue falls under ], but I am filing here because another topic ban is not the right remedy here. Transphobia must not be tolerated, whether the topic is transgender athletes or Siamese hairless cats. Roxy has been given so many chances to improve both in this area and others. It's time to say enough is enough. <b style="font-family:Monospace">-- ] (])</b> 10:01, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Well, not the right time to say enough is enough, eh. Roxy is just presenting why SilkTork may have made a mistake. Roxy isn't claiming that people who change their names should be forcefully referred to with their past names. Don't get me wrong. I have no love lost for Roxy. But this is not his to take the blame. ] 10:07, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Addendum - Roxy's absolutely misplaced 'transexual hounding' comments nukes this whole theme I was peddling. I will support an '''indefinite exit''' from Misplaced Pages for this individual in any manner whatsoever. A topic ban will not be enough as the person will end up spewing such vitriol in other topic areas and we will be back to where we are. ] 04:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::I had just mentioned this, though Shibbolethink walked through it a bit just below. I think we do need to be really careful about misrepresenting RtD on that quote, especially in terms of ]. It does appear the claim by RtD that Maddy from Celeste was hounding them related to trans topics with this ANI had some merit based on discussion below, but instead it has been spun into claiming RtD thinks all trans people are hounders. | |||
| *::Now would be the time to get clarification from the person who said it with a pitchfork handy rather than throw it first and ask questions later. I still think RtD absolutely needs to be out of this topic one way or another, but that quote really needs to be addressed so we can be sure we aren't casting aspersions or violating ] going beyond the obvious topic ban. ] (]) 05:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I think that's a very, very generous interpretation of the comment, KoA. First, it requires us to assume the "standard" refers to, what, such hounding being standard for the topic area? Since, if RtD's (unsubstantiated) allegation was that hounding is standard for Maddy, RtD would presumably have said "standard Maddy hounding". But if what is meant is that it's standard for the topic area, I mean, who phrases that that way? The logical thing would be to say "standard GENSEX hounding", "standard trans-issues hounding", something like that; "transexual" isn't a topic area. If I felt hounded on a UK article, and felt such hounding to be systematic, I wouldn't call that "standard British hounding"; setting aside offensiveness it's just a phrasing that makes no sense. For someone with no history of offensive comments in the GENSEX area, maybe there's be room to assume they just picked a very strange phrasing, but at a certain point ]. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 05:35, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::I'm not the only one who's noticed it, but I'm pretty big on making sure we aren't blatantly misrepresenting someone in a large degree when it seems a fair chance of it happening. That's especially since people have been "confused" by RtD's shorthand language for mundane things in the past like X750's comment below. Still really sloppy on RtD's part (that's being generous) if I'm right and not something the topic area needs to be working with, but I am really cautious of putting words in their mouth, especially ones that would fall into major NPA territory on our part. If it were obvious it was in the other direction and the context didn't match how it currently does, then I'd also be saying more than a topic ban was needed. ] (]) 06:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Roxy has made eight comments since being blocked, including in direct resonse to requests to clarify what "standard transexual hounding" means, and has so far declined to do so. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 07:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *<s>I don't think this is particularly egregious, despite past reports about the user. The initial link in question was talking about the discussion around Chelsea Manning when she was still known by her deadname, which the article was named at the time, and something we even include in her article to this day. Indeed, Roxy used "he" to indicate pre-transition but "her" to indicate post-transition. That distinction might be clumsiness on Roxy's part, but I don't think it's malicious. If Roxy had continued to refer to post-transition Manning by "he" then I'd agree it's an issue. — ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 10:16, 5 June 2023 (UTC)</s> | |||
| *:'''Addendum''' I retract this in light of Roxy's later comments. — ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 21:09, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:To accuse me of transphobia really is a most unsavoury personal attack that should not be tolerated. - ]the ] 10:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:To me this doesn't looks like "clumsiness", but like an anti-trans editor taking any chance to sneak in transphobic comments. AGF is not a suicide pact, and I refuse to believe Roxy the dog is acting in good faith after: | |||
| *:* ] – making a grossly transphobic comment (Roxy later ] while insisting it was an "innocent remark" at AE: ]) | |||
| *:* ] – edit-warring BLP violations into an article about a transgender person not once... | |||
| *:* ] – ...but twice. Note also the grossly incivil behaviour here and in edit summaries on ], and the general agreement that Roxy should have been indeffed already then. | |||
| *:The only sincerity I see here is Roxy the dog's sincere commitment to attacking trans people.{{pb}}Regardless of what you may believe about their motivations, it doesn't actually matter that much. If Roxy the dog is unable to edit without unintentionally attacking trans people, that is no better than doing so intentionally. <b style="font-family:Monospace">-- ] (])</b> 14:49, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * <s>'''No action needed''' per Czello.</s> ''']] (])''' 14:01, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ** In light of later comments, '''support broadly construed TBAN and oppose CBAN''' per Apaugasma and Tryptofish down below. ''']] (])''' 09:44, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *This should have been handled via a talk page discussion, not here. ] (]) 14:07, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *I don't think this is enough for a community site ban, but I'm surprised that an editor with as much experience in this area as Roxy doesn't yet know that ] which AFAIK she has not. ] (]) 14:48, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:(EC) In fact, from Roxy's posts, it's not even clear to me that Roxy understands that it's not acceptable to refer to Chelsea Manning by her deadname on Misplaced Pages unless she has indicated it's fine (which again AFAIK she has not), no matter how common it is, with the exception of where it's needed for discussion or in articles in accordance with MOS:GENDERID. (Which is very very rare for any editor comments.) Again maybe not enough for a community site ban but I can understand why Maddy is so concerned when an editor with as much experience in this area as Roxy still does not understand that. ] (]) 14:55, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Take it to ] if you really feel this deserves scrutiny through a ] lens. IMO, even if Roxy used this as an intentional opportunity to be an asshole, it's not actionable. We are not the pronoun police and it does not rise to the level of ]. Far more egregious behavior has been (wrongly) tolerated in the past, but we shouldn't overcorrect and ban for ostensibly minor infractions. Roxy should be warned and that's it. There's always more ]. ] ] 14:59, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *EvergreenFir makes good point but ] is transphobic (that is unrelated to pronouns). Casting aspersions over use of pronouns is like ], but comparing trans people to dogs is not acceptable. ] (]) 15:11, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I totally agree, but ] was from a year ago. I assume that's already been handled? ] ] 15:13, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::I didn't notice the time. My fault. ] (]) 15:23, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Update: I thank Roxy the dog for dispelling any further doubt over whether they should edit Misplaced Pages: ]. <b style="font-family:Monospace">-- ] (])</b> 15:15, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Perfect example. - ]the ] 15:18, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *<s>No action needed.</s> Some editors above appear to be digging up years ago comments that were already discussed in detail at the time, and have very little bearing here. At issue is whether or not these most recent comments are problematic, and I do not find them to be. It appears like a good faith effort from an editor to discuss the thorny issues of pronouns pre and post transition with attention paid to the sources. <s>I see no violations of policy in these most recent comments. At most, I would support a two way IBAN for these editors (maddy and Roxy)</s>{{pb}}<u>Edit (18:54, 5 June 2023 (UTC)):</u> I have been persuaded by many of the comments elsewhere in this thread re: our differential treatment of gensex and race/ethnicity/religion issues. I would '''support a broad gensex TBAN''' but I don't think this issue rises to the level of an indef site block, not yet anyway. Blocks are meant to be preventative and should be tailored to the area of disruption. As far as i can tell, this behavior doesn't extend outside of this topic space, so a TBAN is the most appropriate sanction here imo. — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 15:17, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:What part of ] does <em>not</em> violate policy? <b style="font-family:Monospace">-- ] (])</b> 15:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::It appears to be a critique of your behavior, alleging that you are hounding Roxy by bringing up minor infractions at ANI. Which is allowed (and indeed encouraged) on user talk, if the allegation has, at minimum, potential merit. (per ASPERSIONS). I'll grant you that it does paint all transgender users with a single broad brush, which is wrong. And probably merits a warning for that. But it doesn't rise to the level of sanctions imo. I would tell you to be careful not to BLUDGEON this discussion by responding to every comment and argument. If your arguments have merit (which they do, they at least deserve discussion and consideration imo) then others will take up that banner and argue along those lines without ''you'' personally having to do it. — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 15:21, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::You think it's okay to say I'm doing "standard transexual hounding of people they dont like"? <b style="font-family:Monospace">-- ] (])</b> 15:23, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::{{tq| I'll grant you that it does paint all transgender users with a single broad brush, which is wrong. And probably merits a warning for that.}} — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 15:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::No it merits a site ban. It's one thing to criticise an individual. It's completely another to blame that individual's actions on some aspects of their identity or to suggest that it's someone all such members with that identity do. ] (]) 15:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::I would add that it's also a particularly dumb comment as such comments normally are. I am one of the ones who called Roxy out on the issue. Yes only after it came here but they were responding at least in part to me. While IDGAF if people think I am, the simple reality is I am not transgender or trans-sexual. I'm sure there are a number of editors who are transgender who do not feel the same as me. (Not an editor, but a well known personality comes to mind.) So blaming my calling them out on my trans-sexuality is just dumb. ] (]) 16:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::Oh I read the comment as actually referring to Maddy and not you, Nil Einne. But I think on further review, as I say above, that it is egregious enough in the context of all the rest of this that RTD should probably be GENSEX TBAN'd. — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 19:00, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::The definition of transphobia. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 17:20, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:The anti-trans stuff doesn't extend outside the area of trans people? That makes sense, yes. The general incivility that they've been warned for by arbcom wasn't related to trans people, though. I'm not sure what {{tq|this behavior}} you mean exactly. ] (]) 18:58, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *While I agree with EvergreenFir that this is better handled at AE, I'm not sure I agree that this is not actionable. Roxy is already subject to a ] for similar issues on the ] article and associated talk page. They should know that this type of contribution has gotten them into trouble just three months ago, and that any further examples of it are likely to be seen in a massively unfavourable light. {{pb}}With regards to sanctions, at minimum I think we need to '''broaden the existing topic ban to encompass all GENSEX content'''. It's pretty clear that Roxy is not able to {{diff2|1138789096|set aside their prejudices}} against trans people, including making {{diff2|1158676382|further deliberately provocative comments}} (ie {{tq|standard transexual hounding of people}}) shortly after this discussion had opened. ] (]) 15:25, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I think Tamzin has also made a good point here. ], and the "hounding" statement by Roxy is pretty clearly in that territory. As a comment it was directed both at an individual editor (Maddy), and the broader group of trans and non-binary editors, disparaging both for who they are. We shouldn't allow that anywhere, either on-wiki or off. So I agree with {{np|Tamzin|Nil Einne}} that we should '''indef siteblock''', in addition to a broader topic ban. ] (]) 17:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support site ban with a minimum of 2 years before any appeal'''. Referring to something as "transexual hounding" is no more acceptable than referring to something as feminist hounding. Roxy the dog can {{rpa}}, preferably for the rest of their life, but at least for 2 years. ] (]) 15:27, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Why two years? Why no appeals? I'm curious to the reasoning here because I don't see a lot of calls for bans/blocks with an altered period before appeals. ] (]) 15:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Because such an utterly disgusting comment deserves it. I'd say the same for someone who treats all black people, or other LGB, females/males, as showing a typical hounding pattern. NB I said feminist in my comment, I really should have said female or black or something of that sort since it's far closer to what Roxy actually said. In some ways I'd prefer if Roxy never came back, but since people can change, that isn't fair. But I'm thoroughly unconvinced that 6 months is enough to change such a disgusting mindset. From other comments here and I suspect this is because they only said something transphobic, I also feel there's too much of a risk they'll be let back in prematurely than if they'd said something racist or misogynic, or probably even homophobic if the wrong people happen to be the main ones to notice the appeal. So better to ward that off from the get go. (Or to put it a different way, there are a lot of cases where 6 months is really just something we don't modify since it isn't needed. It's clear there's no way in hell the person will be allowed back in in 6 months. Unfortunately while that should also be the case here, it isn't.) ] (]) 15:43, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::With regard to "can fuck off from Misplaced Pages", also said to Roxy here: as "you can fuck off", it seems incongruent with calling for refraining from insulting people. I hope we can arrive at a reasoned decision without such a high temperature. (Maybe such strong language arises from the indignant certainty that one is right, but that's just doing what Roxy also did.) --] (]) 20:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::So let's get this straight: You, a self-professed wiki-friend of Roxy, not once publicly called them out for their behavior, at least not in the last month that I can see. But someone tells them to fuck off and ''that'' gets your hackles? --] (]) 20:52, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Well, you might want to get your facts straight. I could compile a list of diffs of me telling Roxy ''exactly'' that, but this isn't about me. (The reason that it hasn't come up in the past month is that Roxy spent much of that month in the hospital.) And I'm quite capable of keeping two thoughts in my mind at once: that "fuck off" is not a good way to discourage people from insulting one another, ''and'' that Roxy needs to be topic banned, as I endorse below (despite my friendship). The most important part of my comment above is that I hope that the community can come to a thoughtful resolution without overly escalating the discussion. If, instead, you think it's a good idea to get huffy with me just because I called out someone for saying "fuck off", that's on you. --] (]) 21:25, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::No, editors should not tell each other to "fuck off". ] is one of the five pillars for a reason; it doesn't have an escape clause for if someone really deserves it. This is not because everyone on Misplaced Pages for the last twenty years was just too naive to realize that there were contentious political issues, it's because they are obvious and fundamental principles of collaborative work. If we want to roll around in our own feces and call people nasty words, we have ] other ] in the ] to do that on; Misplaced Pages is meant to accomplish something, which involves not having every surface of the website covered in puke and blood and shit. ''']'''×''']''' 20:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::], Telling someone to fuck off certainly raises my hackles. It is unacceptable behavior for any editor, especially an administrator. I believe you should apologize immediately or resign.<span id="Jacona:1686161382680:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators'_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt"> — ] (]) 18:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)</span> | |||
| *:Just to aide any closer, I'd also support a GENSEX topic ban and frankly a BLP one too as an obviously far less preferred option. Likewise any other lesser sanction. And obviously the 2 year minimum is not a prerequisite for my support for a community site ban ] (]) 12:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *<s>'''Warning''' per Shibbolethink</s> sequel to ], which I'd consider incivil hounding. But if we're just looking at ''just'' the comments that brought about this ANI report (]), then '''no action needed''' per EvergreenFir and Czello. This is probably better handled at ] anyway, but I don't think Roxy meant to be transphobic in ], I think they were just being inattentive. This one comment doesn't sufficiently show a "long history of transphobic editing" to me; Roxy used a pretransition pronoun when directly referring to a pretransition name, which doesn't seem malicious, just clumsy. '''〜''' <span style="font-family:Big Caslon;border-radius:9em;padding:0 7px;background:#437a4b">]</span> ] 15:34, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Changing to '''support a 3-month site ban''' and '''indefinite GENSEX topic ban''' in light of Roxy's later comments and conduct, though I still question if Roxy's ] warranted a trip to ANI in the first place. While this entire situation could have (and should have) been meted out on ] or the talk page, Roxy's highly aggressive comments have no excuse (including calling someone a "worthless piece of shite liar"), and I'm not sure they have a future in this community if this continues. Their block log shows that past disciplinary action hasn't been enough to deter this behavior; perhaps it's time to look towards stronger actions. '''〜''' <span style="font-family:Big Caslon;border-radius:9em;padding:0 7px;background:#437a4b">]</span> ] 22:43, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Roxy should abide to ] whether they like it or not (I don't like it). However on the other end some people want to enforce ] to ''every namespace''(i.e. editors talking) rather than article's mainspace (recently an Arb corrected an accidential misuse of pronouns after editors brought up). Correct me if I made the wrong observation. ] (]) 15:36, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:The logic would be that it falls under ] which does apply in all namespaces. ] ] 15:38, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Whoa, that makes sense. But I want to ask people familar with transgender topic: at what point of ] do the previous name/pronoun becomes unacceptable? ] (]) 15:48, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::The previous name is fine ''if and only if they were already notable'', and should be relegated to a clarifying mention (ex: “bob smith (formerly Alice smith) is a…”). Pronouns are as far as I know and am concerned Are immediately and completely changed. ] (]) 17:51, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::The guideline allows for using contemporaneous pronouns pre-transition if that's what the subject requests, but I'm not aware of Manning requesting that. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 17:58, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:As EvergreenFir said, BLP applies to all name spaces so in the case of any living person which applies to all examples that have been discussed here, it's an automatic issue. But also Misplaced Pages isn't a place for idle talk. Discussion between editors should generally be focused on improving Misplaced Pages. We allow some off-topic discussion to help build the community here, but not at the expense of either living persons or the well being of the community. Editors who intentionally deadname or mis-pronoun people are being offensive to many of their fellow editors. And so even when it isn't at the expense of a living person, it is as the expense of the community wellbeing. They are free to do what they want in their personal lives, but when on Misplaced Pages they should not be intentionally offensive. If they want to be intentionally offensive, there's a whole wide internet out there for them to do so. Twitter in particular seems to be open to such nonsense nowadays. 15:54, 5 June 2023 (UTC) ] (]) 15:54, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * It's baffling to me that someone already under a partial GENSEX topic ban – and especially someone who was ] – would think it was okay to accuse another editor of "standard transexual hounding". Agreed with Sideswipe9th that {{em|at a minimum}} the TBAN should be upgraded to the full GENSEX topic area. ] (]) 15:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *: I support an indefinite block, per my comments and Beccaynr's diffs. ] (]) 18:23, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Comment''': ] initially wrote: {{tq|This comment may seem relatively innocuous to the unfamiliar, but it is a part of Roxy the dog's long history of transphobic editing.}} I'm thinking that the theme of bias also plays a major role in ]'s other main preoccupation here — and which may have parallels — that of policing ], where bias is openly admitted and believed to be a positive force in protecting the integrity of Misplaced Pages as an encyclopedia (see {{oldid|User:Roxy the dog|1084615477}}) against what Jimbo Wales referred to as "]", and where the language used at times in the sub-culture ("pseudoscientist", "woo-monger", "loon", "lunatic charlatan", "fanboi", "troll", and the occasional "FU") is similarly lacking in sensitivity and decorum. <b>]<small> + ] + ]</small></b> 16:34, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:] is a good read. (Note the author, perhaps deliberately, decided not to include any modern geopolitical disputes, and the gender-themed conflict we are discussing, as areas where bias are legitimate) ] (]) 16:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::One might even say that being a transphobe means that one is being a bad skeptic.... ] (]) 23:35, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::It certainly means one is going against the consensus of relevant experts. — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 20:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Upgrade partial topic ban to broadly construed'''. The claims which brought us here don't appear particularly actionable but the subsequent comment on their user page is honestly shocking, I have a lot of respect for Roxy the Dog but perhaps thats because I primarily interact with them outside of this topic area... If it wasn't that respect and history I wouldn't be here supporting a topic ban, I'd be here supporting a community ban. ] (]) 16:51, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Upgrade topic ban'''. Roxy contributes a lot of good content, but it seems that their opinions are impacting their ability to edit collegially; we have had similar issues in the past with skeptic editors accusing trans editors of being unable to ever edit impartially and treating all such editors as a bloc, which is corrosive to dispute resolution and collaboration (beyond that, it's pointlessly antagonistic and uncivil.) If they cannot contribute in those areas effectively, then they should be forced to give it a wide berth. ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 17:00, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Note:''' I have blocked Roxy the dog for 2 weeks for the "standard transexual hounding" comment (my explanation ]). This is not intended as a conclusion to this thread, as further remedies may still be appropriate. – ] 17:20, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Extend siteblock to indef'''. I have great respect for ], and understand why he erred on the side of caution in a block when sanctions were already being discussed at AN/I, but come on... | |||
| *: '''{{tqq|What Maddy is doing is standard transexual hounding of people they dont like.}}''' | |||
| *<li style="list-style:none;">Would we tolerate that for any other community? "standard black hounding"? "standard female hounding"? "standard Jewish hounding"? This is not an editor expressing a heterodox opinion on gender. This is an editor singling out a colleague's transgender status to deligitimize {{their|Maddy from Celeste}} opinion. A temporary block will not remedy that. A topic-ban, which is about the encyclopedic topic of gender-related disputes, not interactions with editors who are trans or nonbinary, will not remedy that. We have a way to deal with editors who harass others on the basis of minority status: ] <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 17:35, 5 June 2023 (UTC)</li><!--{{subst:i*}}--> | |||
| *I was hoping that the original ''faux pas'' was based on ignorance rather than malice, but that quote shows that my hope has not materialised. ] (]) 17:59, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Check some of the links above, Roxy has actually in the past specifically stated they are a TERF. This isn't an ignorance thing. ] ] 18:08, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Ah jeez upgrade my vote to a STRONG blockban ] (]) 18:10, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Concur with Tamzin and Nil Einne. --] (]) 17:44, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Good lord. It hasn’t been three months since I imposed the partial GENSEX ban. I was trying to be tailored and reasonable to the immediate problem, but that clearly has been inadequate. I remember when I topic banned and blocked in March that {{u|Valereee}} said Roxy was lucky I got there first due to a pretty egregious topic ban. (Long story, I’m not a big fan of single admin indefs of long term editors, but that’s irrelevant to this discussion.) at a minimum, the topic ban needs to be expanded to the entire GENSEX area. A CBAN, I can see it, especially in the context of this being yet another example of treating other good faith editors poorly. ] (]) 17:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Indefinite block-ban''' Roxy has no problem with saying horrible things to other users (back in march they called someone a “worthless piece of shite liar”) and no problem using bigoted remarks to belittle and bully other users. Simple violation of ]. ] (]) 17:58, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:* To clarify: as noted in above, Roxy responded to my March 2023 template message and note with "You are a worthless piece of shite liar, who is officially banned from this page. I hope you choke on your lies" at 13:46, 21 March 2023, and at the Lia Thomas article, with the edit summary: "Restore well sourced, removed by liar" at 13:47, 21 March 2023, and then added ] at 13:51, 21 March 2023. ] (]) 18:07, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Crikey. Skepticism (and this may be an extension of that) may be a noble aim, but belligerence, militancy and vigilantism of any persuasion is toxic and should have no place in Misplaced Pages. <b>]<small> + ] + ]</small></b> 18:26, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *''' Indefinite block-ban' if continue after 2-week-block '''Roxy has been blocked for 2 weeks. If they continue I support an indef for harassment and personal attacks. ]] ] (he/him) 18:03, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Indef siteblock, and if they return a broadly TBAN on GENSEX''' I read through the diffs and frankly they are just plain discriminatory, period. Transphobia isn't, and will never be, compliant with a collaborative project like Misplaced Pages. -- ]]] 18:08, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Update siteblock to '''formal siteban''' now that I've seen their block log. -- ]]] 20:16, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Indef''' If I'd gotten here first it would have been, I have no time for transphobic comments, racist comments, sexist comments, the list goes on. If this has been comments about race rather than a gensex topic they'd sure have been blocked, not sure why we'd treat such broad strokes exclusionary commentary any different no matter the group. And just remember, indefinite does not mean permanent (though maybe it should in some cases.) That way they 100% need to convince the community they will avoid areas, abide by any restrictions, commit to improving their behaviour etc before someone unblocks them. Some blocks should just go straight to indef and a justification is needed to regain editing rights. ] ] 18:10, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Indef''' Regardless of the fact that Misplaced Pages, like much social media, treats the transphobic (oh sorry, "gender critical") far more leniently than racists or homophobes - as you can see from some of the comments above - there is still, hopefully, a line that can't be crossed. And unfortunately (because RTD is a good editor in many areas) it has been here. ] 18:27, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:{{tq|1=And unfortunately (because RTD is a good editor in many areas) it has been here}}<br>I agree the behavior here crosses a line. I think some sort of sanction is now appropriate. But given what you say here (that RTD is a good editor in many ''other'' areas), wouldn't a TBAN from GENSEX, broadly construed, be more appropriate than an indef? My impression was that sanctions should be narrowly tailored to prevent the disruption they seek to remedy. — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 18:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Have you ? Their general attitude, personal attacks and harassment A) isn't new and B) isn't confined to just GENSEX topics. ] ] 18:59, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Part of the problem is they are now a poisoned well. You could say "If they don't edit trans stuff then no one will know they hate trans people," but I'm pretty sure that will also leak into anything else they do. Their presence on an article is a chilling effect on anyone who is or supports trans people. If we wouldn't say "just let the anti-semite edit articles that don't involve Jews", I'm not sure why the same treatment isn't relevant here. Their only option is a massive mea culpa and acceptance that they fucked up. --] (]) 19:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::The only way to stop them from being transphobic is to ban them from anything that mentions transgender people or topics AND interaction ban them from all transgender users. ] (]) 19:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::What, do you want all transgender editors editors to have to state they're transgender on their user pages just so one editor, who has proven they can't stop harassing people no matter the area, can avoid them? No, you remove the people who are not capable of treating other editors like human beings. ] ] 19:07, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Yeah, I was going to say something similar here. While in theory a one-way IBAN with all trans and non-binary editors would theoretically address some of the chilling effect, many editors don't want or otherwise feel a need to declare they are trans or non-binary on their userpages. It would be pretty much unworkable without requiring those editors to out themselves, which opens the door to all sorts of other harassment issues that many openly trans and non-binary editors face. | |||
| *:::::At some point it becomes more expedient and efficient to just show the disruptive editor the door. ] (]) 19:17, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I was being hyperbolic and rhetorical ] (]) 20:00, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::ANI is not a great place to be hyperbolic and rhetorical if the idea is to deescalate and lower the temperature of the discussion. Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 12:53, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::{{re|Shibbolethink}} I just added a bit to ] on this topic. The important difference, to me, is between content disruption and disruption that also affects editors. If an editor is going from article to article pushing an anti-trans (or for that matter pro-trans) POV, but it isn't clearly meant to be hurtful, and the editor is otherwise productive, I personally have no problem with a mere TBAN. But we have to remember that most trans editors don't just edit about trans topics. {{frac|18|1|2}} of the 22 articles I've written are outside the GENSEX topic area. If an editor complains about "standard transexual hounding", and then shows up at one of my {{frac|4|1|2}} non-GENSEX GAs and aggressively starts some content dispute, do I have to then have that whole interaction wondering if I'm being targeted or not? To worry that if I piss them off they'll resort to the same rhetoric they got away with against another editor? What if I run for 'crat (lmao, thought experiment, bear with me) and they show up to oppose? Once they're known to be in favor of singling out trans editors, how do we assume good faith there? And not just me, of course—I've dealt with worse and survived—but any trans, nonbinary, or gender nonconforming editor (maybe even, as we saw with Athaenara, editors who state pronoun-indifference without labeling themself any which way). There's a chilling effect on a significant subset of our editors just to be around that.{{pb}}I always think it's very important to not let these GENSEX conduct threads turn into sanctioning anyone just for having "the wrong opinion" (unless it's a very wrong opinion, like one that advocates violence). I pride myself on an even-handed record on both content disputes, and disputes about editors' conduct in content disputes, in the GENSEX area. But when it's about editor-on-editor conduct, that's where I draw the line and say no, if we allow this, we make the encyclopedia an unsafe place for a lot of people to edit, and lose far more than we gain from one person's contributions. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 19:21, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::{{tq|1=But we have to remember that most trans editors don't just edit about trans topics. 18+1⁄2 of the 22 articles I've written are outside the GENSEX topic area. If an editor complains about "standard transexual hounding", and then shows up at one of my 4+1⁄2 non-GENSEX GAs and aggressively starts some content dispute, do I have to then have that whole interaction wondering if I'm being targeted or not?}}<br>{{pb}}I would argue that a broadly construed GENSEX ban would also prevent RTD from commenting on the transgender-ness of any other editor in the same way that a TBAN about weather would prevent a user from discussing cloud-related userboxes on another user's talk page. If I'm wrong on that, I would be happy to be corrected, of course.{{pb}}And an IBAN from Maddy would be enough to prevent any further disruption from that dispute. I don't necessarily see a site ban as worthwhile here, as the pros of RTD's beneficial editing in other areas outweighs the costs of watching their behavior more closely in those other areas moving forward. That's just my assessment, though. — ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 20:51, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Indef''' I don't think anything good can come out from this editor at this stage. ] (]) 18:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Upgrade TBAN to Gensex broadly construed''', not just <s>one page</s> athletes, '''oppose indef'''. Before this ANI discussion goes full ], I want to focus on what will, and what will not, accomplish some good. First of all, I'll stipulate that I'm a wiki-friend of Roxy. On the other hand, I've repeatedly warned Roxy not to do this sort of thing, and yet, here we are once more. I also feel the need to point out that this incident started when Roxy was simply trying to defend something that SilkTork had done inadvertently and in good faith. On the other hand, it got worse from there. Also, Roxy has been dealing with some very real health problems lately. On the other hand, he is still responsible for what he posts. But a site ban is going too far. Roxy ''does'' contribute positively with respect to fringe topics (and there may be a bit of piling on happening from editors who don't like ''that''). However, I see no way around the fact that gender is a topic where Roxy simply cannot control himself, and we are past the point of warnings on that. So, despite my personal friendship, I believe that he needs to be TBANed from gender and sexuality, broadly construed, and in all name spaces. --] (]) 19:22, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I'm not directing this at anyone in particular. I linked just above to ]. I hope that whoever determines the consensus here will evaluate this discussion with that essay in mind. --] (]) 21:45, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] Purely as a point or order, while the topic ban calls out (the article) Lia Thomas, it’s only because it was the immediate flashpoint. It continues …” well as making any edits about transgender athletes, broadly construed.” which is considerably broader than a single page. ] (]) 19:36, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Thanks, my mistake, now corrected. --] (]) 19:45, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:"and there may be a bit of piling on happening from editors who don't like that" is a assuming a lot of bad faith there, broseph. "On the other hand, I've repeatedly warned Roxy not to do this sort of thing, and yet, here we are once more." It sounds like you agree that there's no reforming them, since even a self-professed wiki-friend couldn't change their mind. "Also, Roxy has been dealing with some very real health problems lately." We've all got shit going on, mate. That doesn't excuse hating trans people. I stand by my earlier statement - if we wouldn't allow an anti-Semite to continue editing so long as they don't interact with any Jews, we shouldn't allow this to continue either. --] (]) 20:54, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::You're an administrator, and you just called me "broseph"? Well, what a ''lovely'' way to advocate for editors being kinder to one another. I was talking about ''serious'' health problems, scary ones. I get it that we all have, um, stuff going on. That's why I also said "he is still responsible for what he posts." You are making it sound like you think I'm arguing for no sanctions. But I said that "we are past the point of warnings" and a broader TBAN is needed. The TBAN will stop him from making any of the comments that are so troubling, and I agree that they are troubling. Treating Roxy simply as a transphobe is overly reductive. He is actually someone in the LGBTQ+ group of people, and there are complex issues going on with him and his views of at-birth versus chosen gender identities. People are complex. --] (]) 21:40, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::If he’s not a transphobe why does he act like one unrelentingly? Being severely ill is not an excuse, being gay or bisexual is not an excuse, being “complex” in ways we never see is not an excuse. You fuck up this many times, you’re out. ] (]) 21:44, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Don't confuse an explanation with an excuse. They are two different things. Don't confuse treating him "simply as a transphobe is overly reductive" with "not a transphobe". And this isn't baseball, with three strikes. --] (]) 21:51, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::So he is a transphobe. And he’s racked up a helluva lot more than three strikes. ] (]) 22:01, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Sorry, but I can't resist linking to this: . --] (]) 22:11, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I have some concerns that my comment here will just set off another barrage of ], but perhaps more thoughtful editors will take what I'm saying in a thoughtful way. There's already been a link above to an earlier AE thread. I'll link here to Roxy's statement within that thread: . I'm not saying that it's perfect. And I'm not pretending that some editors won't use it as an opportunity to take some short snippet of it in isolation, in order to engage in performative indignation. And most importantly, I'm still saying Roxy should be broadly topic banned. But if you read it responsibly, you will see a complicated human being, one who is not reducible to an online caricature as a hater, and one who is, in fact, capable of recognizing that he made a mistake and feels badly about it. This is why I ask editors to recognize that people are complex. If you read it differently than I have, don't bother snarling at me, because that says more about you than it does about me. --] (]) 23:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::{{tq|one who is, in fact, capable of recognizing that he made a mistake and feels badly about it}} I don't know about this {{u|Tryptofish}}. In the ] on Roxy's talk page, you have {{diff2|1158733487|given Roxy advice}} to this regard. That he should reconsider what he's written, understand the concerns raised here, and make a commitment to do better. Instead however it seems as though Roxy is ] by focusing on whether something relating to the block is a trope, trend, or something else. | |||
| *::::It is possible that Roxy will take action based on your {{diff2|1158734597|second attempt}} at the same advice tonight, but if Roxy does not, then at least some of what I've quoted above seems not to be true. For this to be true, in one of his next comments, Roxy ''needs'' to recognise why what he said was an attack, not only on Maddy but the entire community of trans and non-binary editors, and make a commitment to be better. Otherwise he is either incapable or unwilling to recognise that he made a mistake. ] (]) 00:16, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Obviously, I agree with you that he should follow my advice. Another editor pointed out below that some of that may be a defensive reaction to being criticized, so let's not be in too much of a rush to assume that he doesn't recognize his mistake. I'm also seeing an awful lot of comments below that make the jump to characterizing his comments as being "hateful", thus attributing a motivation that is not really what has been going on. | |||
| *:::::Let me also suggest that editors look at ], and recognize that, as I have said, real people do not reduce to caricatures. --] (]) 01:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::I don’t know what the point of this whole section is besides trying to hammer the vague-wave claim that “it’s not what you think”. ] (]) 01:31, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Upgrade to GENSEX broadly construed, oppose site ban (for now)''' I think Roxy should be given one last chance, but these comments show that they need to be banned from GENSEX broadly construed. Any further comments like this should warrant a site ban. ] (]) 19:34, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Indef''', Their showcases that a topic ban upgrade will probably not actually stop personal attacks and harassment. ] (]) 19:38, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support indef or CBAN''', bumped into this editor on a fringe medical topic once (]) regarding the reliability of an author (which eventually turned into the reliability of the source), I got stonewalled so hard I went to the wikiproject talk, asked the same question, answered promptly and with reasoning by someone else. Simply saying "the source is unreliable" (which was already a non-answer since I asked about the credibility of an author) without giving reasoning is just plain unhelpful, not all of us are altmed regulars and it surely would not hurt to just explain. In addition to the litany of god-awfully egregious violations of the civility on their talk page (just because it's true doesn't mean you should say it) and block log longer than the Great Wall of China I think the rope has been extended enough. This User really needs to reconsider whether their habit of snarky remarks is really suitable for the encyclopedia and for collaboration. Using pejoratives such as "despicable", especially when referring to other editors (implied or otherwise) is just simply not the way to go. ]. '']'' ''<sub><small>]</small></sub>'' 21:58, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I took a look at the talk page, and it looks like you were hounding Roxy with pings, who was being curt in responses as a way of minimizing interaction. You really were splitting hairs over journal vs. author when Roxy was talking about the journal paper. That conversation comes across as ] on your part. When someone is being pedantic as you were along with tone, you do have to expect that editors will be short. That interaction looked pretty benign and I didn't see any lashing out etc. from them that would really be evidence here. ] (]) 22:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Nothing wrong with being curt, however, in retrospect the pings were indeed unnecessary but construing it as hounding I think is unfair. The rest of my point still stands, though. ]. '']'' ''<sub><small>]</small></sub>'' 22:55, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support 3-month site ban''' for . This is an attack on certain editors for an arbitrary characteristic, in this case being their status as transgender, that should not be tolerated in a place where anyone can edit. No demographic group should painted with that sort of brush. Now, I acknowledge it was just one comment, so I think a limited site ban is optimal. In my judgment, an indefinite full site ban is excessively punitive. Furthermore, I '''support an indefinite GENSEX topic ban''' for historical and persistent disruption in the GENSEX area along with a displayed POV that apparently interferes with Roxy's capacity to edit the area productively and without bias. ]<sup>]</sup> 22:22, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:You should check Roxy’s block log and reconsider the length ] (]) 22:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Part of my thought process is I've seen a lot of editors here (who I trust) say Roxy is productive outside of GENSEX areas. Working under that assumption, I concluded we need to get Roxy's attention (with a time-limited site ban) while allowing <s>her</s> him to go back to productive editing in areas outside of GENSEX. I think that's a reasonable course of action in this case. ]<sup>]</sup> 22:36, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I thought roxy went by male pronouns? ] (]) 22:37, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Ok, I'll correct it. ]<sup>]</sup> 22:39, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *I don't like any situation where we lose an active contributor, but it's behavior like ] which, if tolerated, discourages other editors and creates an environment prone to personal attacks against specific groups, in this case transgender people. At some point, users who engage in personal attacks hit a threshold where the contributors they push away or otherwise discourage outweigh their own contributions to the project. We are evidently far beyond that point, and '''I support an indef/CBAN'''. Regards, ] (]—]) 22:40, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strong support for broadening TBAN, support for Indef.''' I was pretty deep into looking into the details of the report here, and refamiliarizing myself with the previous discussions where sanctions were proposed, and was generally leaning towards a warning approach before I saw the "standard transexual hounding of people they don't like" comment, which, frankly, recontextualizes everything else. If I were to judge Roxy's conduct in this particular area absent this comment, it would be substantially more difficult to interpret the balance of the scales. Some of the very discussions the OP and others wished us to review for context here were closed as content disputes that had inappropriately been brought to behavioural spaces. Others included a clear community consensus of biased or disruptive activity on some articles connected with trans issues. Looking at particular behaviour on individual talk pages also paints a complex picture. On several of these articles, activity by Roxy that has been intimated as biased or transphobic does not necessarily clear that hurdle for me: on ], for example, I actually think Roxy's position is the correct one under GENDERID, as well as in terms of respect for self-determination among BLP subjects and trans individuals generally. On the other hand, while contributions on other talk pages didn't so much involve big brightline issues (that I saw in the threads I reviewed anyway), there are some indications of a pattern of bias against trans individuals that have become culture war targets.{{pb}}As such, had I shared my perspective here much earlier in the thread, I probably would have focused on whether and to what extent to expand the TBAN. But Roxy's scattershot invective against all trans individuals fundamentally changes the calculus for me. That comment is nothing short of spiteful generalization against a massive class of individuals who collectively have nothing in common other than their belonging to that class of people with gender identities differing from those assigned to them. In short, this is bigotry. Frankly, Roxy let them mask slip, and even if we were able to ignore this pretty blatant display of hatespeech in itself (and I don't think we should, by any means: this should validate a longterm block all on its own), it also puts a new light on all the previous borderline or outright disruption and battleground attitudes elsewhere in this topic area. Nor indeed is this the only time (or the only area) in which Roxy's compliance with basic behavioural policies has been found to fall short by the community. This is an editor with an extensive block log, much of it involving personal attacks, harrassment, and other violations of ]. They have been brought to ANX and AE no small number of times along the same grounds, and been warned about their acerbic or outright aggressive comments on a non-trivial number of occasions. Clearly due warning was given here, and embraced (if at all) in a highly selective fashion.{{pb}}So, I have to agree that "enough is enough" is the appropriate call here: I don't think we should let the boiling frog effect blind us to just how problematic the invocation of the "frothing at the mouth trans person" trope is, in a community that is meant to be open and inviting to all editors of good faith, with rules based on a rational analytical framework. Therefore, I cannot see any alternative to an indef. I support the TBAN first and foremost because I think it is important it be implemented parallel to, and irrespective of, an indef; in the unlikely event that Roxy is not indeffed (or the probably unlikely in the short term, but still quite possible event that they are given a second chance down the line), the TBAN should be implemented as a secondary restrain on Roxy ever contributing to areas where they have evidenced a clear inability to act with neutrality and proper perspective. '']]'' 23:09, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support upgrading t-ban''' to GENSEX broadly construed, '''oppose block/c-ban''' – The comment crosses a line which makes it clear that a full GENSEX t-ban is needed. However, my impression is that this comment, made after this ANI report was initiated (with rather weak evidence), results from a specific frustration rather than from systemic hate. I believe that Roxy may be frustrated over having a ''different'' opinion on gender issues than most other editors do around here, and over feeling targeted for that (as in this ANI), rather than harboring a genuine hate towards transsexual people.{{pb}}This sets the current issue apart from Roxy's chronic problems with incivility, where ironically Roxy is usually on the majority-opinion side, and it's their victims who get the rough treatment for (sometimes just seemingly) having the 'wrong' opinion. It also sets this issue apart from cases where a t-ban may not be sufficient to contain the hate, because hate often spreads over several topics, and because even if it is limited to one topic strong hate will always disrupt editorial processes. I don't believe such hate is present here.{{pb}}All that said, it is merely my impression, and I could be wrong. I realize there's a royal dose of AGF here, but I do think that is warranted when it comes to sensitive topics. I do hope with Bradv that Roxy, preferably after some reflection, make an effort to explain themselves in this ANI report. I would like some affirmation that indeed no civility problems –none at all– will occur after the t-ban is enacted and they are unblocked. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 23:57, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::"results from a specific frustration rather than from systemic hate." If Roxy had said "standard Jewish hounding," would you be so quick to discard it as a mere specific frustration? --] (]) 03:50, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Transphobia, you see, is just a ''difference of opinion'' on the value of other humans, not hatred. (Sarcasm) ] (]) 12:51, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::This has been discussed a bit above by KoA below and by KoA and Tamzin above. I'm reading this as perhaps meant to signify "standard trans-issues hounding". In other contexts "standard Jewish hounding" or "standard British hounding" or "standard skeptic hounding" might be meant to signify, coming from a frustrated and unduly generalizing editor, 'hounding by editors on Jewish topics', 'hounding by editors on British topics', 'hounding by editors on skeptic topics'. All of these would be pretty bad, and betraying a certain prejudice to say the very least, but they would not ''necessarily'' qualify as hate speech. They may, in context, be reactions to a perceived pigeonholing of editors with unpopular views.{{pb}}And yes, I choose to AGF in presuming that an unpopular view lies at the basis of this, rather than hatred. Humans have a natural tendency to brush off views they disagree with as either malice or lunacy. The narrow-mindedness that often results from this may be acceptable and even desirable in certain contexts, but is completely out of place on an encyclopedic project like Misplaced Pages. Any intellectual enterprise needs a window of discourse that is broader than the ], not narrower. We as WP editors need to be far more tolerant of people with different views, including views that we perceive as extreme, than we would be on any other medium. Sure, there ''are'' limits to that, and I very much respect and understand the view of others here that these limits have been crossed in this case, it's just that my personal preference would be to stretch AGF a bit more, both in this case and cases similar to it. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 16:13, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::If you spend any time in ] you will regularly encounter people that use "Zionist" as an epithet for "Jew". Most recently (with no action) at ANI: | |||
| *:::It's always somewhat annoying to see someone bring up antisemitism like anything remotely similar of a standard is being applied w.r.t. that form of bigotry. One wonders where all this outrage is at ANI threads where someone actually complains about other editors being Jewish, rather than incorrect pronoun usage. ] (]) <small>(please ] ] me on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 17:37, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Because some of us are limited to 24 hours in a day and don't see everything on ANI. But, "most recently" is 9 months ago? I was about to block on sight for what I read but finding out about it nine months later really puts a damper on that. It would also really be nice if you didn't disregard the terror directed at trans people as simply "incorrect pronoun usage," especially since that's not even what this section is about. --] (]) 18:10, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::When I first read the comment, I understood "However, my impression is that this comment, made after this ANI report was initiated (with rather weak evidence), results from a specific frustration rather than from systemic hate" to be refering to frustration over finding that there was an ANI complaint. It's not unusual for editors to initially react with feeling upset upon learning that they have been taken to ANI. Taking the comment as a whole in that light, I find it reasonable. The performative outrage expressed by some editors in response, not so much. --] (]) 22:06, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::I've been upset by being taken to ANI but I somehow didn't use that opportunity to disgustingly insult a portion of the audience. Performative outrage? Here's a phrase you've learned well: Fuck off. --] (]) 22:15, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::{{u|Tryptofish}} I understand and respect the desire to want to protect your friend. But Roxy has been given ample opportunity to explain exactly what he meant by the hounding comment, and apologise for it, and has so far refused to do either. I don't think it is fair to anyone, least of all Roxy, to describe the reaction to the comment as {{tq|preformative outrage}}. A plain reading of the words is that it is a pretty egregious attack that was directed to both an individual (Maddy) and an entire cohort (trans and non-binary) of editors. I would strongly urge you to strike that part of your reply. ] (]) 22:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::Sideswipe, then let me be clear: what I was describing as performative outrage are the comments that were directed at Apaugasma. I should have said that more clearly. But there are some comments above that seem to imply that Apaugasma condones bigotry. That's not appropriate. | |||
| *:::::::And I stand by ''that''. Golbez, I said to you earlier that we should focus the discussion on Roxy, and not one another, and that we should do so civily and thoughtfully. However, you have instead doubled down, and now spread the message of inclusiveness by telling me to fuck off. ] (]) 17:08, 7 June 2023 (UTC)</small>]. --] (]) 22:49, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::{{re|Golbez}} I think it's disingenuous that there's multiple comments here claiming that antisemitism isn't tolerated on Misplaced Pages compared to transphobia. That's just not true. From my understanding, conduct in ] is enforced to the point where people will start ANI threads like this one based on using "he" instead of "she" on a user talk page. In contrast, ] closed last month after an academic paper discussed was released, and the title tells you all you have to know about what has been tolerated w.r.t. antisemitism onwiki. I would consider it "performative outrage" to tell an editor who actually contributed evidence to that ArbCom case to {{tq|fuck off}}, and to claim that others might tolerate antisemitism (e.g. you wikilinked ] below as an example of {{tq|where the kind of TERFy rhetoric leads}}). If you're not going to wade into the exciting shitshow that is Holocaust history on Misplaced Pages (and I think you should, because one point I took away from the case is that there's a shortage of admins willing to deal with the drama), you shouldn't criticize people for hypothetically not taking a strong stand against antisemitism/hypocrisy with respect to that area of bigotry. ] (]) <small>(please ] ] me on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 01:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Sorry that I'm not involved in 100% of discussions on Misplaced Pages, I'll be sure to invent a 96 hour day so I can slot into your favored topics. I never said people might tolerate antisemitism, in fact quite the opposite, but sure, read whatever you want into it. I think we're done here. --] (]) 13:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Since this has come up in the replies above: I did not take any reaction to my comments here as implying that I condone bigotry, but to clear any doubt I should perhaps be explicit. I am a male-bodied person who casually and regularly wears skirts and dresses, as well as on occasion make-up, hairpins and other 'female' regalia. I get stared at on the streets, occasionally harassed. I do not condone bigotry of any kind, but when it comes to trans issues I'm rather kinda on the receiving end of it (I say 'kinda' because I'm a 'transdresser' rather than a transsexual, and though I doubt whether actual bigots care much for such differences, there is a big gap in experience because I always have the option to 'cisdress' in situations where I expect to be uncomfortable).{{pb}}My own views on gender issues are complex, and having been a feminist for +25 years I know from experience that there are many different feminists out there, each with their own subtly different views. I disagree with most {{p|grin}}. However, I've always had the biggest problem with ], which in my view has always flirted with bigotry, even though that has perhaps only become really clear to many since the widespread adoption of trans issues in the ]. On the other hand, I do very much respect radical feminists, and I do understand why trans issues may occasionally present a problem from their point of view.{{pb}}In particular, even though I strongly disagree with those radical feminists who think that trans issues have no place in feminism, I believe it's very problematic to assume that they are bigotted simply for holding that specific view. I'm rather concerned that Roxy's self-identification as a ']' is taken as straightforward evidence of bigotry. As encyclopedists I think we have a duty to be more nuanced, and to reject the polarized views which are so widespread elsewhere on the internet. This is in line with my wider views on Misplaced Pages, which I firmly believe should be more conservative than its average editor, including my rather progressive ] self {{p|smirk}}. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 04:03, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support site ban''' I have seen this editor snarling at editors around the project and at DYK. The arbcom formal warning regarding civility was ignored and the editor is pushing other limits. If the editor is successful getting a site ban lifted they should be subject to an upgraded t-ban''' GENSEX broadly construed. ] (]) 00:17, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support TBAN''', '''oppose CBAN or siteban''' or whatever it's called as that's not fixing the problem, it's vindictive punishment. It's like returning hate with hate. Let's try to show some love to all, not just those we agree with. ] (]) 00:35, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:]— transphobia is not a difference of opinion, it’s unacceptable behavior. “Love” is not fixing anything here. Also it’s hardly vindictive, it’s preventative after years of evidence that wrist-slapping is ineffective. ] (]) 00:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::], I guess we have come to a difference of opinion then. Can you find it within your heart to accept that others see it differently?<span id="Jacona:1686015302074:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators'_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt"> — ] (]) 01:35, 6 June 2023 (UTC)</span> | |||
| *:::I’m not intellectually incapable of understanding that other individuals have different opinions. So yes, I guess. ] (]) 01:37, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::{{tq|to accept that others see it differently?}} is such an intellectually dishonest comment. "We agree to see things differently" applies to pineapple on pizza or being a Mets fan rather than the Yankees. it doesn't apply to tranpohbia. ] (]) 02:05, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::@], here's solution for you: first we'll siteban Roxy to ] disruption, then you'll show him some love, prefereably off-site. Comrade ]rado🇷🇺 (]🪆]) 04:35, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::], Thanks for the suggestion. How very kind of you.<span id="Jacona:1686052105712:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators'_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt"> — ] (]) 11:48, 6 June 2023 (UTC)</span> | |||
| *::::::@], sure thing, you're welcome!{{tind|g}} Comrade ]rado🇷🇺 (]🪆]) 11:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::{{tq|Can you find it within your heart to accept that others see it differently?}} | |||
| *:::No. As others said, this is not merely a difference of opinion, and we would not tolerate a difference of opinion on race. RtD has made it very clear that he is going to insult and harass anyone who is trans or supports trans rights. That is unacceptable, and incompatible with Misplaced Pages's values. I will never accept such behavior, and neither should anyone else. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 21:04, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Blocking someone for continued incivility after is not "returning hate with hate", it's preventative conduct enforcement. Additionally, "show some love" to people who harass and insult other contributors does nothing but alienate the victims of their attacks, and is disruptive to the project. ] (]—]) 00:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support indef/siteban''' largely per the editor's extensive history of edit warring and personal attacks. IMO the recent personal attack is bad enough for an indef in its own right, but Roxy the dog's extensive block log leaves little doubt that they've been unable or unwilling to correct course despite a dozen or so blocks and an ArbCom warning. I think it's particularly noteworthy that, although their conduct in the GENSEX topic area has certainly been subpar, there has also been plenty of problematic conduct unrelated to GENSEX. If the siteban doesn't pass, I support a '''full GENSEX topic ban, broadly construed'''. — ] [] '''·''' ]] 00:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment:''' Roxy has been a useful editor in many articles, but sadly does not get the point that some opinions are unwelcome at Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 00:45, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support indefinite site ban'''. Calling this ANI thread {{tq|transexual hounding}}? You must be kidding me if you think anything but a site ban is the way to go here. ''''']''''' <sup>(] / ])</sup> 01:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:To anybody opposing sanctions: I'm sorry, but is blatant transphobia. We desysopped and blocked Athaenara for similar comments... and she was an admin. You know how admins get free passes? If Athaenara got desysopped and indeffed, then Roxy should also be indeffed. ''''']''''' <sup>(] / ])</sup> 22:32, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support indefinite site ban''' per others. I do not think that transphobic comments have a place here, in the spirit of ]. You cannot have editors here who are at their core showing prejudice and hatred towards others. ] (]) 02:05, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support topic ban to GENSEX, oppose indef''' per Trytofish and Apaugasma. Roxy just isn't a fit for this topic, and I've faceplamed quite a few times seeing times when they clearly should have just voluntarily walked away. It sounds like they are just too close to this topic IRL, which I wasn't aware of, but also explains why they had trouble walking away. That's a clear cut case for a topic ban to get them back to working in other areas where they are productive, like fringe/medical topics. A site ban is pretty premature though, in part because I'm concerned about the pile on effect going on that's generating more heat than light that's making it hard to really sort things out, nor would it be preventative when the key problem area is transgender topics. | |||
| :I am concerned about their comments being misrepresented though in many of the indef !votes. The {{tq|standard transexual hounding}} comment pretty clearly comes across as describing ] behavior in context, which is perfectly fine to address as long as it's not an aspersion (haven't been able to dig into the interaction history much yet) as Shibbolethink mentioned near the start. It's not the most precise phrasing, but it would be like me saying "standard disability hounding" for a recent case I saw. There, someone was being disruptive, warned for it, and then they claimed they were being discriminated against for their disability. Instead, they were interjecting their disability (a neurologic disorder) and sealioning about it. Something like that isn't atypical, so that's why Roxy's comment comes across as sealioning rather than jumping to thinking they're talking about all trans people. | |||
| :I'm not seeing evidence presented that would clearly qualify for a site ban though. The had no significant issues in context where it seems like Roxy is addressing issues when a person is known well before and after their transition. Tackling nuance there with Roxy's bluntness though? Not a good idea (no, a really horrid idea with all their red flags already to step back), especially in a tense topic. If I'm reading things right though, this is the most recent issue in the initial filing? Everything else is from old diffs that were already addressed at AE, etc. It seems pretty clear a full ban/indef would violate ], but a full topic ban would fit very sqaurely there. ] (]) 04:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' In addition to above oppose !votes, reading ] it seems they have a poor grasp of the English language ({{tq|Actually, I just looked up Trope (literature) and Trope (disambiguation) and the word Trope clearly doesn't mean what I thought it meant. It is a bit sloppy, but perhaps we could settle on the word trend instead? }}). Ban them, and allow them to return only when they are capable of expressing themself and understand others. ] (]) 07:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :<s>Thinking about it, Roxy might be from a community that despies Western identity politics. It's like some time ago a user was brought to ANI for borderline Armenian genocide denial, and they defended themself by stating they are a Turk and are just following 80% of their compatriots. I don't know their eventual fate.</s> '''Support TBAN, Neutral on indef''' (apparently Roxy is a TERF, making this conjecture useless) ] (]) 07:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support topic ban to GENSEX, oppose indef''' This editor has clearly crossed the line in this topic area, and needs a very long time out. But this editor is an iconoclast who has interesting and provocative things to say, and has made useful and incisive observations about other matters while this conversation has been going on. Many's the time that I wished that this editor would dial it back, but many other times, I found a useful kernel of truth buried in their unique style of expression. I totally understand the sentiments of editors who are saying "enough is enough already" but I recommend ]. ] (]) 07:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I don't know, Cullen, I'm generally inclined to extend ] whenever we can, but here's the problem I run into with that here: I have no good response to any of the comments above noting that if we changed the operative labels here (if the comment in question was "typical Irish troublemaking" or "typical jewish conspiring" or "typical black exaggeration") we would not be seeing anything like the current amount or manner of equivocation about what to do here. And I feel that anything short of consistency with what our response would be in those situations for "typical transexual hounding" is going to send a message to every trans editor on this project as to just how much we value them on this project and are prepared to make it welcoming to them. A message I just don't want to be a part of sending. '']]'' 09:16, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Thanks for the examples. I was trying to say that earlier but simply replacing transexual with black or female doesn't work so well. ] (]) 12:53, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *: ] (]—]) 14:25, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support topic ban to GENSEX, oppose indef''' Roxy is a useful contributor who needs to be kept away from problems, not punished. ] (]) 08:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''support indef''', I personally believe an editor who categorises other users in this way will have a hard time contributing constructively in other topic areas as well, especially when encountering other editors subject to their prejudice in such a topic area. However,<s> I am willing to extend the ] needed to prove my theory for now.</s><sub>Edit, based on other comments here, that rope has long since been tied into a know, so I'm retracting this suggestion</sub> However, if it does become a TBAN I suggest that further hostility towards our trans editors, broadly construed, should also lead to an immediate indef. I strongly suggests this editor strictly follows ] to avoid this fate going forwards. --] (]) | |||
| *'''support indef''' per "standard transexual hounding of people they dont like" comment. The point of an indef, rather than a fixed term, is that it doesn't suddenly become all right after 2 months or that we hold out hope this was a one off and a wee holiday will fix things. As others have noted, this is a pattern of behaviour rooted in clearly stated beliefs. Not going to change baring some Road to Damascus thing. While it ''does'' make a difference that someone is a longterm useful editor rather than some random newbie who turns up to hate, this is a clear "line crossing" incident, and the attempts to keep a "useful" editor by suggesting topic bans seem desperate and frankly embarrassing. -- ]°] 09:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * I am pretty involved with Roxy so I won't be making a bolded !vote, as I think editors without a history with someone (as adversaries or friends) are the best to determine if sanctions are necessary. That said, I'm less than impressed by the {{tq|needs to be kept away from problems}}, {{tq|isn't fit for this topic}}, {{tq|vindictive punishment}}, and similar comments. Roxy has a long history of incivility and editing issues that are not confined to gensex topics, but rather any topic that they edit. This behavior has been chronic, and has not changed. They have had a half a dozen or so blocks for personal attacks before this point, a block for BLP violations, and a few blocks for edit warring. The vast majority of these blocks were not placed for any behavior in gensex. Roxy was also warned by arbcom for their behavior. Despite this, Roxy continues the same behavior. Is there actually a real belief that the problem is the topic area, or that with just one more chance their behavior will change?{{pb}}Moving on to the recent comments, a lot is being made of the {{tq|standard transexual hounding}} which, as has been explained, is pretty bad. I'm even more concerned with This wasn't a comment made in jest, and is explicitly admitting to bigotry. Roxy later went on to say . Yet, despite that self-declared bigotry, the warnings, and the blocks, Roxy continued to get involved in the topic area. Knowing their bias, after warnings about and a block for their editing, they edit warred on the same article they were blocked for violating BLP on. This edit warring included more personal attacks, showing that they attacks come when they're in a disagreement, not because of any particular topic. It's also another clear demonstration that blocks and warnings are ineffective.{{pb}}So we're looking at an editor with a years long history of personal attacks, incivility, and edit warring across multiple topics that doesn't adjust their behavior based on warnings or blocks, who has admitted to bigotry and used bigoted language. This isn't a {{tq|isn't fit for this topic}} situation. It's not that they {{tq|need to be kept away from problems}}. ''Their editing is the problem.'' It is not {{tq|vindictive punishment}} to indef an editor that has had years of warnings and blocks and has not changed their behavior, and has recently made bigoted attacks against an entire group of people. ] (]) 11:30, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:FWIW while I'm very uncomfortable with bigots editing I also do feel there is a risk of the infamous slippery slope once we start banning or blocking simply for self-admitted bigotry. There is the fact they brought it up on wiki, as I said above if you want to talk such stuff elsewhere well whatever but when you bring it here we have to consider the harm that comes to the community when we allow people to say it here. But even with that I'm not certain I'd support a site ban simply for self admitting bigotry. I'm always in two minds about NONAZIS for the same reason and have never been particularly supportive of it. For me the transexual hounding thing is far worse since you're ] in a bigoted way. So it's no longer simply a case of being a bigot but you've demonstrated you will make vile attacks because of it. While this case isn't quite as bad as the other infamous one during an RfA, it isn't that far off IMO. (Likewise if there is any indication from the editor they intend to try and push their bigot views in articles.) ] (]) 12:37, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::One of my concerns with ] or ] is always the fact that we move away from prosecuting instances of incivility or misbehavior to instead prosecuting thoughtcrime, seeking to block or censure those who hold opinions that fall outside the ] whether or not it has any impact on their edits. This is probably why there is a divide on how people feel about Roxy the dog. I'm generally uncomfortable with deciding to block people who self-admit to having certain opinions, because to me it goes against the idea that ''Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit'', and it reinforces cliquish group behaviors on Misplaced Pages, which at certain times may become toxic. But in the case of Roxy, it's pretty clear there is at least a history of belligerent and highly inappropriate interactions with other editors - a history that perhaps Misplaced Pages collectively has overlooked as time has gone on due to also being ]. Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 13:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::{{re|Nil Einne|WaltCip}} The two-mindedness y'all describe is why I wrote ] a while ago to address the shortcomings of NONAZIS etc. There's a subtle but very important difference between "We'll block you if you're an X" and "We'll block you if you let on that you're an X", and I felt that NONAZIS dangerously conflated the two. We shouldn't sanction people for being transphobes; we should sanction them for acting transphobically, because acting transphobic is disruptive. HATEDISRUPTS argues that it's blockable to self-out as a bigot, but I'm actually not sure whether I think "I'm a TERF" qualifies as that. As Colin says, the word means a lot of things, and for better or for worse some of those things are within the ]. To the extent that it's relevant here, I think it's more relevant in establishing that the offensive things said weren't accidental. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 15:39, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Was that essay deleted or is that a typo? Appears to be a redlink to me. — ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 15:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::I agree, and having read over your essay ], I agree with most of its principles. Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 15:51, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::I'm a bit uncomfortable about using the word "bigot" (which in normal circumstances would be a personal attack) because someone has claimed to be a TERF (no problem with using the word because of their other remark, though). TERF is a rather technical jargon that has become a term of abuse that few now are willing to own and prefer something like "gender critical" instead. We need to remember that recent YouGov polls in the UK have only 38% think trans women should be considered both socially and legally women. So when you've got essentially two-thirds of my country with beliefs that could be described as gender critical or TERF-aligned, then throwing the "bigot" word around is going to hit a lot of targets. I've interacted with editors who seem very much careful not to associate themselves with a label, for fear that alone will be used against them, when their statements and edits "out" them quite obviously. ] is often cited, though that is pretty much exclusively on racism with only a brief "other inappropriate discriminatory groups" tagged onto it. The community obviously should discuss when "discriminatory" crosses that line, but it is a hard case to argue that gender critical beliefs have crossed that line, when ''most'' of the UK, where I live, are on the "wrong" side of it. -- ]°] 13:32, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::{{ping|Colin}} You hit the nail right on the head. We as a community shouldn't try to superimpose West Coast U.S. liberal viewpoints as a barrier to entry for editors, because that's not the purpose of Misplaced Pages per ]. We should call out those individual actions which are disruptive and hurtful, but unless that viewpoint is so extreme as to deserve universal censure (this is why ] is so useful), we cannot and should not block for status reasons. Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 14:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Remember a decade ago when gay marriage wasn't legal, or when interracial marriages were illegal? Or maybe when people of certain backgrounds couldn't own land? Or women couldn't vote? Popular opinion isn't the measure of when something is right or wrong.{{pb}}I'm also not suggesting the issue is that Roxy said they were a TERF, what I'm saying is that if you admit to bigotry, admit to bias, get warned and blocked because of it, ''then continue editing in that topic area without adjusting the behavior'' it is an issue. I didn't sign onto the NONAZIS page because if someone has shitty or bigoted views and it doesn't leak into their editing I don't really care, but when someone admits to something like that and edits in the topic with their bias clearly showing, it is a problem. Combined with their history of general incivility and not changing their behavior, why would I have any reason to believe their behavior would improve now? ] (]) 14:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::I concur. It would be a valid discussion on "prosecuting thoughtcrime" if we were banning editors who we merely suspected of holding unsavoury views, but I don't think that the community is anywhere near doing that and in any case that's not what's happening here. <span style="border:1px solid midnightblue; padding:0 2px">]</span> ] 15:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::{{tq|Remember a decade ago when gay marriage wasn't legal?}} To extend on this, if we're measuring views based on popularity among English speakers, the four countries with the most English speakers after the USA are ], ], ], and the ]. None of those countries have legal gay marriage, and Pakistan/Nigeria can punish same sex activities with death. ] that "transphobia is fine because 38% of the UK agrees it is" would be that advocating against gay marriage or the living status of gay people is OK as well given the popularity of said views in countries with far more English speakers than the UK. And I'm pretty sure ] covers calling for the death of gay people onwiki, so I don't think popularity in one country is a good way of demarcating the policy. ] (]) <small>(please ] ] me on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 02:08, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Personal attacks are personal attacks irrespective of the target group's political status. We're at ANI discussing this not because Roxy holds these ideas, but because those ideas manifested in the form of broad-stroke personal attacks, which are inherently disruptive to the project. ] (]—]) 14:50, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::It's not just that they said they were a TERF. It is that they said they were a TERF, ''and then edited as they did''. They didn't end up blocked for BLP violations and topic banned because of their good behavior in the gensex topic. They said they were bigoted and then painted all trans people with a broad brush. To beat the examples given above a bit further into the ground, if someone had said "I'm pro-civil rights, but excluding Jews" and then edit warred and made BLP violations on articles of Jewish people, then when called on it said "typical Jewish tricks," we wouldn't be having this conversation. ] (]) 14:28, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Well, them saying that they were a TERF is, according to you, "explicitly admitting to bigotry". And I'm not sure how one comes back, relationship-wise, from calling someone a bigot. I mean, a dictionary definition is {{tq|"a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."}}. But I stuck my comment under yours and WaltClippers when it also applies to a couple of those further down, who seem convinced that admitting to being a TERF is sufficient for an indef. | |||
| *:::The problem I have is that right now, in the UK, two thirds of the population don't think gender critical beliefs are "unreasonable". In fact they call them "common sense" and "biological facts" and have not only the backing of the current government but also ]. I don't think your "I'm pro-civil rights, but excluding Jews" example is equivalent (in the UK anyway) to being a TERF/gender-critical. (They would argue that a trans woman is fully entitled to all the civil rights of the biological man that they actually are, so there's no discrimination at all). If someone made the claim in your example, I don't think we'd be hanging around waiting to see what bad edits they make. Your "typical Jewish tricks" example is better aligned with the "standard transexual hounding of people they don't like" comment and seems to me to be a clear line crossed. | |||
| *:::I think we both agree that their beliefs explain their behaviour and their behaviour is what got them here. I just wanted to say really that those beliefs alone are not I think sufficient at this point in time (even if I strongly disagree with them). -- ]°] 15:20, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::"of the biological man that they actually are" you just couldn't resist, wow. Also funny how you ignore the existence of transmen but sure go off. Just because 2/3 of terf island is wrong doesn't mean we have to coddle them for it. --] (]) 15:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Can I just say that Roxy is probably British based on their dialect? ] (]) 16:19, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Colin, transphobic rhetoric like “trans women are actually biological men” is the last way to defend an editor accused of transphobia. ] (]) 16:21, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I don't know which part of "They would argue that...." you are trying to associate with me, but I suggest you read what I wrote again. Oh, and based on comments elsewhere, I suggest Dronebogus take this page off your watchlist and go do something else. Golbez, perhaps you missed my indef block vote. I'm not coddling anyone. -- ]°] 17:11, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Hrm. Fine. I can assume good faith. But surely you can see how that statement, without being attributed to someone else, comes across as your own words. Especially the use of the phrase "they actually are", we have no way of knowing if that was your words or you paraphrasing someone else. That being the situation, as you say, then I apologize for piling on. --] (]) 17:20, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::Thank you for the apology. I did "attribute to someone else", that's what "They would argue that..." means. That I am paraphrasing what someone else would argue. Do you really think any editor with half a clue would wade into a GENSEX AN/I dispute and openly say in their own words "trans women are actually biological men". It isn't just AGF you need but a degree of common sense. -- ]°] 19:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::"Do you really think any editor with half a clue would wade into a GENSEX AN/I dispute and openly say in their own words "trans women are actually biological men"." Yes? Have you been on the internet? --] (]) 22:21, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Wrt your {{tq|"Popular opinion isn't the measure of when something is right or wrong."}} I'm not saying it is. All those things are wrong and were wrong then, but we do have the benefit of hindsight. Not everything that bright people believe turns out to be a good idea. A hundred years ago lots of really bright people thought eugenics was a super idea. Someone linked to ]. Misplaced Pages's views on what is acceptable are community-led and so are at the mercy of what the community believe today. -- ]°] 15:30, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::Yes, we have the benefit of hindsight, which is why we know ] where the kind of TERFy rhetoric leads. --] (]) 16:35, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I would like to note the self-awareness and contrition shown , which is exactly what we hope to see in a situation like this. ] (]) 11:22, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''support indef'''. roxy has '''literally called themselves''' a ] - a literal transphobe. the fact that people are even opposing an indef block boggles me. ]] 11:43, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support indef'''. I think the comments that focus on the idea that a block is "punishing" Roxy have it the wrong way round. The priority is the other editors on the project, especially those who are transgender or non-binary. There is no argument for Misplaced Pages accommodating an openly transphobic editor. ] ] 12:23, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *Roxy has ] that I copy the following explanation here (context: ]): {{tq2|Clearly the community has decided that I am unsuitable to be making any contributions in the Gensex area of the project. I cannot but accept this. I note that I haven't done so since my much more narrowly constructed Topic Ban. {{pb}} My comment to Maddy on Silktork's talk page bears examining as ST just didn't deadname her. Her pre and post transition names are well known and in her article here, in the first sentence. {{pb}} Perhaps an examination of the reason I was at the Silktork page may bring some enlightenment. See ] That admittedly minor example and the vast majority of my 30k odd contributions over many years surely speak in mitigation. I have been and would like to continue be a positive contributer to the project. ]the ] 07:00, 6 June 2023 (UTC)}} – ] 12:31, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:If the {{tq|30k odd contributions over many years surely speak in mitigation}}, then this proceeding should also take note of the broader picture of Roxy the dog's interaction over those same years, not just the most recent comments. <b>]<small> + ] + ]</small></b> 12:40, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I do not understand the second paragraph. A deadname is still a deadname even if it is publicly known. ] (]) 13:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::I suspect the verb "deadname" may have been conflated there with the verb "out" (verb), as in thinking it means "''expose'' the prior name" rather than "''use'' the prior name", so you can't have deadnamed if the prior name was already public knowledge. This is of course not how the word is defined in the Misplaced Pages article about it, nor in the dictionaries I've seen by Googling "define deadname". – ] <small>]</small> 18:11, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support indef'''. Can't not comment at this point. Mainly per Colin. Even if Roxy isn't hateful and transphobic, the language (specifically the hounding comment) being used is, and the block would be preventative at this point for the members of our community being hurt. ] (]) 12:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''No action needed''' - was pointing out the obvious, was a personal attack and should be struck, I'm not seeing anything that warrants blocking. –]<sup>]</sup> 12:49, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Did you READ Rox’s block log? Or his “I am a ]” comment? Do you even care how horribly bigoted “standard transsexual hounding” even sounds? ] (]) 12:54, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::I'm not bothered about the terf comment, And no I don't care although as I said it should be struck for being a PA. –]<sup>]</sup> 12:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Oh for goodness sakes, stop going after !votes that oppose your position. As one who myself supports indeffing, you've done it multiple times and it's getting aggravating. I think anyone who has come to this discussion can be assumed to have read most of the salient points without you having to keep ]. Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 12:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Yes Dronebogus please stop your bludgeoning and persistent responses to everything on ANI. You've been blocked from ANI previously for doing exactly this and I've noticed the last month or so you're doing it again, and jumping onto people's talk pages to wind them up as well. I know this isn't about you, but it comes across as you're just running around looking for the next controversy to get involved in. Please stop it. ] ] 13:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support indef''' - Not just for this incident, but a very, very, very long-running pattern of incivility and belligerency towards other editors. --Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 12:55, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support TBAN''' <u>'''or indef'''</u>. As well as the thoroughly-discussed "standard transsexual hounding" comment (which RtD seems to have on their talkpage), I am unimpressed by their doubling down on the claim that "ST just didn't deadname " : as XOR'easter points out above, whether a name is publicly known or not has nothing to do with whether or not it is a deadname. Equally I am unimpressed by their need to shoehorn the claim that they are "" about trans issues into a talkpage discussion with no previous relation to GENSEX. <strike>Undecided on the indef: SFR makes the case above that issues with Roxy's editing are not confined to GENSEX, but without diffs, and I'm torn on whether or not a GENSEX Tban would be sufficient if the only current problems are GENSEX-related, though I'm leaning towards supporting following the arguments of e.g. Tamzin and SnowRise.</strike> ] (]) 14:05, 6 June 2023 (UTC) {{small|Edited 18:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
| *:As one example, in March 2022, Roxy was ] in the 2022 Skepticism and coordinated editing case decision. From my view, this history helps show how the concerns about ongoing personal attacks discussed here are not 'confined to GENSEX' - there appears to be a broader conduct issue that is not limited to nor a function of the GENSEX topic area. And to be clear - editors who are openly trans on this site are ''not part of the GENSEX topic area'' - Maddy is not a 'GENSEX topic,' she is a person and an editor, and just as protected by our civility and no personal attacks policies as all editors should be. | |||
| *:Had this been a matter of editing issues in one or two contentious topic areas by a seasoned editor who by now we would expect to know better, e.g. edit-warring (part of the reason for ) to add content over a good-faith BLP objection in the GENSEX topic area, after previously being for a BLP violation in the GENSEX area, then from my view, this would more readily appear to be conduct that could be addressed by a TBAN. However, despite the broad March 2022 warning from ArbCom, personal attacks by Roxy continued, and previous warnings and sanctions do not appear to have worked to prevent further harm to the collegial editing environment. ] (]) 14:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Thanks {{u|Beccaynr}} for clarifying my thinking on this. You are correct: the problem is not just Roxy's involvement in the GENSEX topic area, but Roxy's interaction with trans editors, and I think you are right that simply expanding the scope of the TBAN will not address this issue. ] (]) 18:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:"Axiomatically correct"? Good grief. ] (]) 17:31, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose any action until two weeks are up''' at least. This happens all the time, you see. Someone gets blocked, is unable to answer back, there's a sudden rush of blood to the head, and there you have it: people start calling for indefs and Cbans, etc. ''Calmez vous''. But, there's no rush. Not for two weeks. See what effect Bradv's block has. Blocks aren't punitive, and there's no need for this to turn into a battlefield any more than it is already; another interesting phenomenon is how, when the main protagonist is removed from the argument—as the Dog has been—everybody starts fighting each other.{{pb}}BTW, if Dronebogus replies to this, you may consider me a '''support''' for an indef from the inevitable ANI Tban that they will doubtless face. ] 14:08, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:], you note Roxy is {{tq|"unable to answer back"}}, as though Roxy's ] was not a transphobic attack, as though there has not been ] by Roxy on their talk page, and as though Bradv had not posted a statement from Roxy merely five messages above yours. We have seen, demonstrably, that with this user...I understand the want to give another chance, but that is a risk, and we as a community have given ''a lot'' of rope already. Best, ] (]—]) 14:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Negative refactoring, ], and please see ] for why your attempted ping to me failed. But, my best to you all the same, and with due respect. ] 14:49, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::The refactoring was me, @], because I was making ] fixes and interpreted your postscript as being meant as a reply to your own post. I've now left your restoration of the original formatting as-is, but removed the signature from the first part (before the para break) because it fools into allowing the insertion of replies between the two parts of your post. <span style="border:1px solid midnightblue; padding:0 2px">]</span> ] 15:17, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::{{reply|XAM2175}} Thank you for sorting that out for me, I appreciate the techno-fixes as it's the sort of thing that can be important but I'll be the first to admit I often don't realise—cheers! And, {{u|Vermont}}, please accept my apology, if you can, for wrongly accusing you; it was clearly ill-founded, as a look at the page history would have told me. Sorry! ] 15:56, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::No worries. <span style="border:1px solid midnightblue; padding:0 2px">]</span> ] 16:16, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:], since you've disallowed Dronebogus from replying to this, I'll be the one to remind you that Roxy the dog , and was not under the two-week block when that was said. This is a problem that's been happening for a while now, and Roxy has been given so much ] that he could lay it down and have it go around the Earth three times. ''''']''''' <sup>(] / ])</sup> 23:15, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::I am unlikely to be reminded of much by a 16 month old account; but thanks anyway. ] 23:24, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Then how about a 19 year old account reminding you of same, young'n? --] (]) 23:32, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::And if I had tried to patronise you and tried to teach you how things worked, that would be a perfectly reasonable response. But unlike the 16-monther, I didn't, so it isn't. ] 14:11, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support indef''' and TBAN. Snow Rise and ScottishFinnishRadish have said everything I would have. <span style="border:1px solid midnightblue; padding:0 2px">]</span> ] 15:21, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support indef''' per Tamzin. ] (]) 15:53, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Indef''' editing isn't a right, but editors have a right to not have to face transphobic rhetoric here. This is not a new editor who didn't know better, this is same old bullshit from the usual suspects. Anyone but Roxy would have used up their last chance long ago. <span style="font-family:Calibri; font-weight:bold;">] ]</span> 16:42, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support upgrade to TBAN, 3-month site ban'''. I've worked in this area, though I haven't worked with RTD before (at least per my recollection). On the other hand, I have worked with and have a great amount of respect for a lot of the editors here, though those editors seem largely split between endorsing just a TBAN or an indefinite site ban. As I understand it, RTD's TBAN was previously confined to transgender athletes. Roxy made a comment about ]—who would not have been within the scope of the TBAN—that seemed to argue a ... borderline sui generis understanding of ]—it effectively incorporated the notability pre/post-transition distinction in ] to conclude that someone who was notable pre transition does not have a deadname. Alone, I probably would've said that the comment was misguided and great evidence of why the current tban should continue, but RTD subsequently accused an editor (Maddy) of "standard transsexual hounding". That's problematic for two reasons: ''first'', it's a clear identity-based personal attack against the editor in question (who, not that it matters, was actually correct as to the meaning of deadnaming), and, ''second'', it's an aspersion against trans people writ large.<br/>For the latter issue, I think upgrading the TBAN is the obvious consequence, and I think a GENSEX TBAN for such comments by editors who have, in other areas, been productive is pretty standard. For the former comment, I think a 3-month ban is called for. I don't think we can ignore that this was an identity-based attack motivated by some of the same thinking that lead to RTD's initial tban. Ideally, a temporary site ban would make clear to RTD what the current tban apparently did not. At the same time, blocks are supposed to be preventive, and it's worth noting that a GENSEX tban would, as I understand, bar RTD from commenting on Chelsea Manning, which is how this began. I also think it should be clear that another identity-based personal attack will be met with an indef ban.--<span style="font-family:Georgia">''']'''</span> 17:05, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::In March 2022 as a result of the Arbitration/Requests/Case/Skepticism and coordinated editing, Roxy the dog was {{tq|warned to remain collegial in editing and interacting with others.}} See ]. | |||
| ::In the enforcement section, it reads: {{tq|0) Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year.}} See: ]. | |||
| ::Is that arbitration ruling still in force, and enforceable in light of recent comments? <b>]<small> + ] + ]</small></b> 17:25, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Speaking as a former arbitrator, a warning is not a sanction that is enforceable, that boilerplate enforcement language is for topic bans, which there was one passed in that case. ] (]) 18:30, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Speaking as a sitting arb, though also only speaking for myself, if asked I would have found SilkTork's December block of Roxy citing the arbcom findings to be in keeping with the case and appropriate enforcement of it. ] (]) 16:50, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thanks to you both. <b>]<small> + ] + ]</small></b> 16:58, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support GENSEX TBan''' per the previous discussion at large. On the main flashpoint of {{tq|"standard transsexual hounding"}}: that ''really'' does not look good, but I'm not convinced it was intended as a PA, per KoA ({{s|I also wish Roxy could respond or clarify, but they're blocked}} is a great venue for them to have explained, and they haven't as of yet). Regardless of that, though, this editor apparently has a history of poor editing in this topic area - I don't think a topic ban is unwarranted at this point. Also, '''Oppose indef block/site ban''', primarily based on their : Since November 2018, I see 4 blocks for edit-warring/content policy reasons, mostly separated by 6+ months. From that, I see an editor who probably has chronic issues adhering to that policy, but typically cools off after a block Repeated infractions probably warrant longer blocks, and eventually an indef, but I'm not sure we're there yet on this front. I don't read a persistent lack of civility across all topic areas from the block log - I think the topic ban would be effective at limiting future civility infractions. ] (]) 17:45, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| **The block on May 22 was for edit warring and personal attacks after . - ] (]) 18:20, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:This IS a {{tq|repeated infraction}} though. If you can say "They've been blocked multiple times before but let's only escalate if they repeat this." when is enough enough? It doesn't matter if they {{tq|cool off}} because the damage being done is disruptive itself. What's the alternative? They go on a disruptive rampage of vandalism for a month? ] (]) 18:48, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support Indef''' and '''require GENSEX tban for any future unblock''' - The transphobic comments by RtD are just beyond the pale, and we cannot allow this to continue. Anything short of a site ban is just allowing this user to continue harassing and hounding trans Wikipedians, and should not be tolerated. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 21:36, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support indef'''. I've read through the various comments above, and, so far as the most recent and relevant behavior is concerned, see enough for that. There have been some fellows of the opinion that an indefinite ban might be too drastic and that a topic ban is sufficient, taking into account Roxy's useful contributions to other aspects of the project. Respectfully, I don't think that's appropriate or relevant. Roxy is a self-admitted TERF, ergo transphobe, and as a result of that has demonstrated transphobia on this project. Trying to silo them into useful and non-useful parts in this particular respect is horrific policy. It's not acceptable to allow an open racist or misogynist to contribute and be part of a community so long as they avoid open discussion about race or sex. The topic ban proposed effectively says that transphobia is a lesser phobia than other discriminatory actions and attitudes. ]<span style="color: #3558b7;"><sup>]</sup>]</span> 22:09, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support gensex TBAN''' for user's history of gleeful anti-trans behavior - user seems essentially incapable of productive contributions in the topic area. '''Support temp block''' for personal attacks, which should be made indef if they continue after unblock. --] - <small>]</small> 23:04, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support indefinite block''' While I do not think not accepting gender theory should automatically result in an indefnite block, Roxy's comments clearly hinder collaboration and are incompatible with Misplaced Pages's values. ] (]) 23:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I don't think anyone has called for a block for "not accepting gender theory." --] (]) 23:36, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::I never said that. ] (]) 06:54, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support indefinite site ban ''and'' indefinite GENSEX topic ban''' - Noting here that Roxy and I were ] where Roxy was warned (and I reminded) to {{tq|remain collegial in editing}} due to interactions between us. I'm ] in Roxy's inability to improve their conduct and to recognize the benefits to the community they could bring if they weren't so immensely high-maintenance. However, ] and if they are unable to learn how to collaborate constructively they should face a site ban. — ] <sup>( ] / ] ) </sup> ⁂ <small> ]. </small> 00:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support indef CBAN with indef topic ban from GENSEX as a requirement for unblocking''' per self-admittance of being a TERF. ―<span style="background:#368ec9;border:solid 2px;border-radius:5px"> ''''']''''' </span> 01:55, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I still subscribe to WaltCip's viewpoint. Also this section in ] is good read: | |||
| :{{tq|Under this essay, bigoted editors are not blocked for their ideologies; they are blocked for their behavior. It just so happens that their ideologies correlate nearly 1:1 with a tendency toward disruptive behavior, especially given that the very act of self-identifying as a member of a hate movement is disruptive behavior.}} | |||
| :{{tq|This distinction is important. Non-bigoted editors outside the political mainstream, both on the right and the left, may read NONAZIS and reasonably worry that their ideology is next. Others may infer a political or geographical bias in the focus on right-wing extremists in Europe and the core Anglosphere. Focusing on ideology, in justifying blocks, raises many difficult-to-answer questions, needlessly complicates things, and leads to drama every time a block is made citing these essays. The real answer is simple: '''Hate is disruptive. We block people for disruption. We block people who say and do and align with hateful things.'''}} | |||
| :{{tq|This only sounds controversial if you go out of your way to make it sound controversial.}} ] (]) 13:48, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{ctop|Here's a tangent that doesn't need to go any further. ] (]) 17:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
| ::Some editors are claiming others, by taking a more nuanced approach, belittles the harm of transphobia. But we all lives in an environment where not all discriminations are opposed equal. For exapmle (from just the race-ethnic ones) the Western world and this very wiki often treats Russians/Serbians/Azerberjiani as lesser than Ukrainians/(ethnic Albanian)Kosovoar/Armenians. Even ] is accepted. So '''fighting all discrimination equally is hard''' ('''I hope we can all do that anyway'''). And can easily result in paradoxes: should Armenian Genocide denial be a bannable offense, and 80% of Turkish editors hold this view (according to a editor's claim at ANI), are we discriminating against Turks, or not? ] (]) 15:44, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{tq|the Western world and this very wiki often treats Russians/Serbians/Azerberjiani as lesser than Ukrainians/(ethnic Albanian)Kosovoar/Armenians.}} | |||
| :::That is a very ''bizarre'' statement to make. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:00, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{cbot}} | |||
| *'''Support indef site ban''' per above. No signs of growth seeing error of ways. Can return at some point. -- ]] 15:05, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support topic ban to GENSEX broadly construed, oppose indef''' ''per'' Tryptofish, Cullen, KoA and others. I agree with what SFR wrote above ({{tq|if you admit to bigotry, admit to bias, get warned and blocked because of it, then continue editing in that topic area without adjusting the behavior it is an issue}}), and it is an issue that requires Roxy to be banned from editing/commenting anywhere within the GENSEX area. But I am also, perhaps naively, hopeful that indicates a (new?) level of both self-awareness and an awareness of others that will result in a much improved editor going forward. I really hope I am not wrong about that. ] (]) 15:36, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support indef and topic ban''' Like c'mon, this is an editor who has a long history of incivility in general ''and'' a record of outright bigotry in this specific area. I am astounded there are any editors that don't support an indef. ] (]) 17:43, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose site ban''', not there yet, and we usually give productive editors (which Roxy most certainly is in medical content) a chance to make right whatever is wrong, particularly when there controversial edits occurred during a period of bad health. ] (]) 18:21, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == User:BittersweetParadox - Overlinking == | |||
| == Moves against consensus by ] == | |||
| *{{userlinks|BittersweetParadox}} | |||
| Buaidh ] to ] and ] to ] with the summary "Perform requested move, see talk page". On the talk pages, the only requested move is from last year, where there was ], a consensus that ''Buaidh supported at the time''. I ] in that Buaidh may have forgotten about the existing consensus rather than blatantly making a series of page moves against it. Instead, I see this more as a ] issue. As a ], this user should know to ensure moves have consensus and/or are not ] before conducting complex round-robin moves. Moreover, this series of moves involved 3 pages being requested for speedy deletion when proper use of suppress redirect could have afforded these moves without need of involving admins. This user ] the redirect ] to ], the latter of which was , essentially improperly employing suppress-redirect to delete a valid {{tl|R from move}} redirect. Similarly, this user requested ], another {{tl|R from move}} redirect, be speedy deleted per ], which ; generally redirects from page moves should not be speedy deleted per G7. Buaidh recreated the redirect ] but otherwise defended the moves by stating "List-02...is the format used for a great many extended lists". However, searching intitle:/-02/ combined with intitle:List reveals the only ] using this scheme are the aforementioned ] and the related ]. The naming conventions at ] do not advise numbering split lists sequentially in this way and instead recommend use of the A–K and L–Z format, where these pages existed previously per consensus at the RM. I come to ANI because rather than risking ] with a fellow page mover by reverting these moves made against consensus, given the above, at a minimum I feel this user should not be trusted with page mover rights, as they are using them to make moves against consensus (or at least without sufficient due-diligence to ensure the moves are not potentially controversial) and are not taking sufficient care with related redirects. ] (]) 18:36, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Is this really an urgent incident or a chronic, intractable behavioral problem? ] (]) 19:38, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::IMHO, yes, this is the most appropriate forum for addressing this. Urgent in that there is a desire to avoid need for further reverts of complex moves, and this is not the first time this user has been involved with issues regarding page moves. ] is not an appropriate forum because it is limited to outcomes of move discussions. I could contact the admin who granted page mover rights, but that could be construed as admin shopping. ] (]) 20:28, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::The use of sequential numbering of extended lists is used extensively in the WikiProjects namespace. The advantage of sequential numbering is that the the component lists can be rebalanced when additional entries are added by moving letter groups around without the need to rename the sequential sublists. The first of the sequential lists is given the name of the List and subsequent sublists are numbered List-02, List-03, List-04, etc. This means that a user can go directly to the name of the List without having to be redirected. This has been a very useful solution to this problem. Thanks for your interest, ]<span style="font-size:75%;vertical-align:middle;"> ] ]</span> 20:45, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::] - Please link to that guidance, so that we can find out why it differs from other established guidance. - <b>]</b> 21:03, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Maybe that makes sense for project space, but is not used in article space. The scheme you seem to favor (but went along with last August) is essentially to use ], which are not allowed in main space (as we discussed at the RM). Articles in mainspace, including list articles, need to have a precise title indicative of their content, hence "A–K" is favored over the ambiguous "-02" per ]. Regardless, there was existing recent consensus in this particular case, and a discussion such as a ] would be needed to change it. ] (]) 21:23, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm not certain that this is the best venue for this, but we're here, so whatever. (shrugs) | |||
| :The "previous consensus", appears to be ] - which had 3 contributors (and a closer). | |||
| :That aside, the syntax that ] appears to use is: colon space letter (or letter range). Which also appears to match the guidance at ], and ]. | |||
| :Is that best practice? I don't know, but it seems to work. And happens to also be what the contributors to the aforementioned discussion seem to have agreed upon. | |||
| :I'll drop a note at ], to see if they would consider updating their edits. - <b>]</b> 20:54, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| : Reverting these moves is appropriate per the various and sundry other stuff Jc37 links to above, without prejudice to some other more-preferred name established at a move request. ] (]) 21:41, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| This user is persistently ]ing throughout most of their edits that aren't dealing with categories or redirects, see for example: | |||
| Meanwhile, as an aside, {{u|Buaidh}} is apparently splitting the analogous county list from two pieces into three (why? I have no idea, seems unnecessary) but is still leaving the same erroneous justification in the ] of "Perform requested move, see talk page". What requested move?! There is nothing about the move on the talk pages. You need to leave an edit summary that describes the justification for the move, linking to the pertinent discussion if there is one. ] (]) 22:01, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| :<s>I did it because I'm an inherently evil person.</s> The requested moves are from the discussion above. While I don't agree with the discussion above, I'm happy to have completed the following moves: | |||
| * | |||
| :*REDIRECT ] | |||
| * | |||
| :**] | |||
| * | |||
| :**] | |||
| * (unexplained citation removal as well) | |||
| :**] | |||
| * | |||
| :*REDIRECT ] | |||
| * | |||
| :**] | |||
| * | |||
| :**] | |||
| :**] | |||
| :*REDIRECT ] | |||
| :**] | |||
| :**] | |||
| :**] | |||
| :As the current coordinator for ], the ], and the ], I do try to stay on top of things. If anyone objects, please let me know. Thanks again for your interest. ]<span style="font-size:75%;vertical-align:middle;"> ] ]</span> 00:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Starting of with sarcasm when your actions are questioned (with good reason) won't help you at all. You claim that these moves are "requested" "from the discussion above", uh, where? I don't see anyone asking for this either in this discussion or on the talk page? Your reference to your positions in meta-Wikimedian groups comes off as an argument from authority, such groups have no bearing at all on our content. And I have my doubts whether someone who doesn't seem to understand or care about standard practices and recently closed move discussions should be the coordinator of a wikiproject, but that is up to you and the members of the project. Your status there doesn't give you any extra authority though, and doing these moves with dubious claims in the edit summaries and while this discussion here is ongoing shows a serious lack of clue. ] (]) 07:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't feel the personal attack above is warranted. <s>While I am elderly, ill, curmudgeonly, and on occasion sarcastic,</s> I try to cooperate with all members of our community and abide by the will of the consensus of our community. I truly regret that I have offended any members of our community. Yours aye, ]<span style="font-size:75%;vertical-align:middle;"> ] ]</span> 11:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You "try to cooperate" by making moves against common practice and against a RM discussion you participated in first, by making some false claims, and then by making new moves / splits because of some request only you can see. You claim a personal attack was made when none is apparent, you claim that "If anyone objects, please let me know." but have no intention to actually undo your splits even though people have objected, you ignore my question about where the split or move was requested... ] (]) 12:25, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I apologize for my slow response to inquiries about list changes. I help maintain hundreds of lists, articles, and templates and I often get ahead of myself on documentation. Please see ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and ]. Yours aye, ]<span style="font-size:75%;vertical-align:middle;"> ] ]</span> 16:03, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You added things like ''after'' my above post, as if they are justification of your moves of before that post which you claimed were already requested. You could just have said "sorry, I was mistaken, these weren't requested, my fault", but instead you strongly give the impression that you try to hide lies behind a bunch of links. So, one final time, you replied to Mdewman6 that "The requested moves are from the discussion above." you claimed in your edit summaries as well that these were requested; just give us a link or a diff to show us who requested these and where, or admit that you made this up and tried to obfuscate it for some reason. ] (]) 16:17, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Just merely as a point of clarity, I think this - ] - is the "discussion above" that he's referring to. It doesn't explain the "-02", "-03" edits, but his explanation above seems to (ease of further splitting, apparently), though that still doesn't explain why, when asked about it he did a "vague wave" to some WikiProject. | |||
| :::::::In the end he did undo the edits, which is a positive, though it might have been better if that had happened through discussion. Especially since nearly all the example links I provided were also in that RM discussion ''which he participated in'', and that he seems to continually refer to. | |||
| ::::::: I wonder if there is some automated tool involved here, which could explain the seeming copy-paste edit summaries. - <b>]</b> 16:42, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I went to look at the discussion again, and see that the talk page was moved. It's now at ]. - <b>]</b> 16:49, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| I have also ] regarding this, but they have seemingly chosen to ignore that warning, as they are still continuing with the same behavior: | |||
| ===Proposal: remove Page Mover right from Buaidh=== | |||
| * | |||
| As suggested by the OP, ], in their opening post above, and as evidenced by the later actions of Buaidh, they can't be trusted to perform page moves according to consensus and best practices, even during a discussion of such moves: so I propose to '''remove the Page Mover user right from user:Buaidh'''. ] (]) 12:25, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| :I find this highly offensive. I'm not sure what has inspired this kind of vitriol. ]<span style="font-size:75%;vertical-align:middle;"> ] ]</span> 13:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| ::You don't understand why people take issue with you moving pages without consensus (in fact, against previous discussions) and refusing to undo them when people object? This isn't vitriol. This is basic responsiveness to concerns. ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 16:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| :I think per ], which predates this AN/I thread, shows that he does respond to requests, and he was willing to address at least some of them. | |||
| * | |||
| :My concern is that it seems like he didn't actually read the guidance that the other editor provided in that thread. If he had, he might have seen that what he said that had been ''"...discussed at length over the years"'', was in conflict with current guidance, and perhaps the two of them could have taken a look to see if that discrepancy between the two guidances could be resolved. | |||
| :In looking at ], I think we could ''maybe'' be looking at #1 and #4. To me, it just depends on if this is a "one-off" incident, or if this turns out to be a pattern of behaviour. - <b>]</b> 17:04, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' (as OP). I want to reiterate that I do believe Buaidh generally acts in good faith, and that their contributions are valued. And this is most certainly not a personal attack. There is more data about Colorado on enwiki than exists for any other state due to this user's efforts. It's just that they lack the ability to always try to go about things in a manner consistent with existing consensus, policies, and guidelines, and this ]. In addition to the issues detailed in my first post above (making page moves without checking for past RMs, or ignoring their outcome; using suppress-redirect to get a valid redirect deleted, even if inadvertent), I am especially troubled by Buaidh continuing to use the same false edit summary even after it was pointed out to them why it was a problem (twice!). Now any user in the future wondering why those pages are at their current titles will be misled or confused. To me, it seems this user either can't be bothered to come up with a more accurate edit summary, or lacks the attention to detail to notice what edit summary they are leaving; either way this says to me "just let me do what I want to do here, and however I go about it is fine". It seems to me this user pretty much marches to the beat of their own drum, doing whatever they think is necessary or best at the moment (which they themselves may decide is different a day or month or year later), and are hesitant to change what they are doing when someone questions their edits for a valid reason. | |||
| This is also not the first time the issue has been brought up to the user, as they were previously warned in ], where even after claiming to understand the issue/say they won't do it again, . With their ignoring of warnings regarding overlinking, it unfortunately appears that an ANI discussion may be the only way to solve this ongoing issue, apart from a block. ] (]) 17:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Though indirectly related to page moves, this user also seems to have problems adhering to guidance in ], as noted ] and in ] and ], in addition to ]. | |||
| ==Repeated pov pushing == | |||
| :] is all well and good, but continuing along a path after someone has pointed out that the edits/moves are contrary to existing consensus or in conflict with guidelines or naming conventions is not acceptable. This is especially true in cases of round-robin moves that can only be reverted by a page mover or admin, and thus cannot be addressed through the normal ] cycle. I am glad the pages above now once again use the format recommended by ], but rather than simply moving all to the A–K and L–Z format to address the issue originally raised, Buaidh also decided to split all the lists from 2 pieces into 3 while this discussion was ongoing. On its own, this is fine, if not perhaps unnecessary, but was this really done just to show that they could make good use of the page mover tools? To me, this is just another example of this user's editing whims. I would not be at all surprised to wake up in a month or 6 or 10 and find in my watchlist that ] has been moved to ] (with a colon this time around instead of a backslash or hyphen) and we go through this all over again. Removal of page mover rights is not a punitive outcome, it means we are merely saying that it would be net positive for the encyclopedia if all page moves this user wishes to make go through ] to establish consensus or ] where another user will confirm the move is uncontroversial and has a reasonable justification. (I don't think this user should have template editor or autopatrolled permissions either, but that's not my call and seemingly beyond the scope of the current discussion.) ] (]) 22:15, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|This is a content dispute and ANI is not the venue to resolve those. {{U|Hellenic Rebel}}, you've had multiple editors tell you that you are not correct. Please take the time to understand why. ] ] 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :<small>(To be clear, removal of page mover permissions would still allow simple page moves (where the move target is unoccupied or occupied by a redirect to the same page with a single edit- i.e. those that can be easily reverted) to be done boldy, as is the case for any autoconfirmed editor). ] (]) 23:40, 6 June 2023 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ] , despite the disagreements, continues to try to impose his personal opinion, for which he cannot cite any source that justifies him. Clearly original research. | |||
| *'''Oppose''': I have always abided by the decision of a consensus of users. I made multiple mistakes in renaming these lists which I have now fixed. Since their creation, I've performed over 95% of the maintenance on these three lists which are under the primary purview of ]. I have no ulterior motives. I don't feel I deserve this rebuke. Yours aye, ]<span style="font-size:75%;vertical-align:middle;"> ] ]</span> 06:32, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| **You have been handwaving about some discussion to rename and split these lists in three parts, where you first used your unsupported naming system, and then made the split anyway: despite your claims, these weren't discussed or requested. The actual discussion from 2022, now at ], was for a two-way split, not for what you did afterwards, and for which you have given no explanation or factual answer. ] (]) 08:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''', single incident of just a single family of pages. Definitely worth discussing, but moving straight to rights revocation seems highly premature. There's been a mistake, not abuse. --] (]) 13:56, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you. I currently maintain more than 300 lists, 2800 templates, and hundreds of articles. Occasionally, I screw up. I am human. I do try to fix things and resolve issues with other users. Yours aye, ]<span style="font-size:75%;vertical-align:middle;"> ] ]</span> 15:16, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Please see ]. Yours aye, ]<span style="font-size:75%;vertical-align:middle;"> ] ]</span> 15:50, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Where you ''still'' couldn't answer any of the questions raised here again and again. You claim to be so helpful all the time, here again you "try to resolve issues", but you have shown no evidence of this at all in this discussion. Instead of humbly proclaiming what a helpful editor you are over and over again, next time try to act like one. ] (]) 16:04, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == LTA Tunisia IPs == | |||
| Looking for some assistance... possibly in creating a ] report as well. | |||
| Essentially, there are LTA IPs based in Tunisia that have been causing issues across '''''numerous''''' articles for months (maybe years?) now. I have previously discussed the issue at ], as well as with another user ]. | |||
| Just for ''some'' of their usual articles they enjoy targeting: | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|MBC 4}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|List of programmes broadcast by MBC 4}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|MBC Action}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|MBC Masr}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|Free TV (MENA)}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|Cinema of Turkey}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|Code Lyoko: Evolution}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|List of Code Lyoko: Evolution episodes}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|Monster High: The Movie}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|The Troop}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|A Loud House Christmas}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|List of Warner Bros. films (2000–2009)}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|List of Warner Bros. films (2010–2019)}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|List of Warner Bros. films (2020–2029)}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|List of films shot in Budapest}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|List of television shows set in Atlanta}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|List of teen sitcoms}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|List of teen dramas}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|List of single-camera situation comedies}} | |||
| *{{Pagelinks|Lucky (2019 film)}} | |||
| And again, these are just ''some'' of the articles they are usually doing damage at- there are plenty more than that. To add onto the fun, there are a multitude of IP addresses and range they use, so many that I'm losing track of what IPs or ranges are or aren't blocked now. For just a sample of some of the ranges: | |||
| See also, talk with ] ] (]) 19:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{Userlinks|197.26.160.0/19}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|197.244.0.0/16}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|102.159.0.0/16}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|102.158.0.0/17}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|197.0.128.0/17}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|102.156.128.0/17}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|197.26.128.0/19}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|102.158.128.0/17}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|41.62.128.0/17}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|41.62.0.0/17}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|102.156.0.0/17}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|197.0.0.0/17}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|197.3.128.0/18}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|102.157.128.0/17}} | |||
| :Replying since I've been tagged. I do think this is a behavioural issue rather than a content one. User has been repeatedly warned on their talk page by several users about edits to the article in question but has belligerently refused to engage in constructive discussion about said edits. | |||
| And for some of their '''''most recent''''' ranges (should be noted that all of these are from just within the past week alone!): | |||
| :User was clearly warned about continuing this in the closure message of the last ANI discussion not to resume the edits but the response on the article's talk page was notably dismissive of said warning. | |||
| :Quite honestly I think this is a case of ]. The user in question has just plead that they have special knowledge we don't and has steadfastly refused to demonstrate in reliable sources the contents of their edits. Despite being informed of how consensus works they have resorted to counting votes and even in that case just dismissing the views of those against him for contrived reasons. ] (]) 19:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: My friends, anonymous user and @], and also dear user and adminis that are going to see the previous POVs. The article had a specific version, which you decided to dispute by causing a correction war, that could easily be seen at the . The administrator in order to reach to a consensus, which obviously couldn't happen, and there was no corresponding participation. Four users in all, the two of us presented our arguments in favor of the original version, Rambling Rambler (and somewhat monotonously and without proper documentation, the anonymous user) presented yours for the version without seats. At the end, you threw in an ad-hominem against me, to top it off. You made a call, no one else did anything, time passed. What makes you believe that the article will remain in your version, while the original was the previous one and there was no consensus?<br/>P.S.: Rambling Rambler, please stop bombing links to wikipedia policies and then trying to interpret them and "fit" them to the issue. This practice resembles clickbait, you are simply trying to show that you are knowledgeable about politics and appear superior, and this is annoying. ] (]) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] an admin locked the page, and then anybody respond even if we make pings. That means that they just locked the page because there was an edit war, and and no one dealt with the article. The discussion ended weeks ago and also you've made a public call. If somebody wanted, they would have closed the discussion. So I don't think it's a case of IDHT, because the time intervals in which someone could engage (either to participate in the discussion, or an administrator to close it) had exceeded the normal. ] (]) 19:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm not going to reopen the content aspect of this here. I have made you aware, '''repeatedly''', of our polices when it comes to including claims. You need to provide reliable sources and the burden is on those wanting to include challenged statements to meet consensus to include them. You have now just admitted there is no consensus yet you felt entitled to reintroduce challenged material. | |||
| ::::This is precisely a "I don't have to" issue. ] (]) 19:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Also tagging @] as they probably have a view on this given their previous action. ] (]) 19:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@] I will prove you that you actually interpret policies as you see fit, and you don't pay attention to what they say. ]:<br/> Sometimes, editors perpetuate disputes by sticking to a viewpoint long '''after community consensus has decided that moving on would be more productive'''. Believing that you have a valid point does not confer the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told otherwise. '''The community's rejection of your idea is not because they didn't hear you'''. Stop writing, listen, and consider what the others are telling you. Make an effort to see their side of the debate, and work on finding points of agreement. Do not confuse "hearing" with "agreeing with".<br/>You can see the bold parts. It's obvious from those, that this policy does not refer to cases where four user with two different opinions participated. It refers to cases where one or a minority of users refuses to accept the community's decision because they believe their opinion is superior. In our discussion, my version never rejected from the community, it was rejected only by you and the anonymous user. In this case, either you believe that the majority or the community in general is you and the anonymous user, or you are simply trying to propagate your position. ] (]) 20:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You were linked ] during the discussion and clearly acknowledged it. | |||
| :::::: So you are aware of it, which bluntly states: | |||
| ::::::''The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.'' | |||
| ::::::In your previous reply you have admitted that there isn't consensus. | |||
| ::::::You have broken policy and are just once again stubbornly refusing to adhere to it. ] (]) 20:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] There was a long time period in which we did not have any edit in the discussion. The original version was the one with the seats. The admins at that cases, lock the article at a random version (otherwise there should have been a clarification from the admin). So the lack of consensus concerns your own version, not the original one, to which I restored the article. Finally, I need to point out that you have made a series of problematic contributions, such as misguiding users by referring them to Misplaced Pages policies that are not related to the subject as I demonstrated exactly above, but also the ad-hominem against me which you proceeded together with the anonymous user in the article discussion. ] (]) 20:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::This wall of text is the exact problem at hand here. You won't follow our site's policies but instead are just making up your own as to why breaking policy is now fine. The "discussion" was barely dormant and as you admit there was no consensus on including the material you demand be included. Ergo, per policy it can't be included. | |||
| ::::::::Frankly you are incapable of editing in a collaborative manner. I think the fact that you've been blocked repeatedly both here and at our Greek equivalent for disruptive behaviour and edit-warring demonstrates this very well. ] (]) 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::@] The problem here is that you don't understand the policy. The one who needs consensus to make edits, is the one that wants to make a change at the page. In our case, maybe the random version in which the page was locked was your version, but that does not change the fact that you were the one who wanted to make a change. You need consensus, you did not achieved it. Also, that is '''ad-hominem''' again, and now you checked and my greek WP blocks? ] (]) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::It is not ad hominem to bring up your history of blocks for edit warring and disruption when the topic of discussion is your conduct. | |||
| ::::::::::The policy, which I quoted for your benefit, '''literally''' says the onus is on the person who wants to '''include''' the disputed content '''which is you'''. You want this claim to be on the article and myself and others have disputed it. ] (]) 21:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::@] there is not such as disputed content. The party has 5 members affiliated with it, and there is source about it. Your edits where those which need consnensus, because you are the one which want to change the original. ] (]) 21:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::The fact myself and others have said it's not supported and therefore shouldn't be there is literally a dispute... ] (]) 21:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::@] yes it is a dispute, but if there is not a consensus that your dispute is valid, the version that remains is the original one, that is also supported by source. ] (]) 21:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::There has never been a specific version of the article. A few hours after adding the uncited 5 MPs, the edit was undone. It is also worth noting that the original contributor of the addition about mps, Quinnnnnby never engaged in an edit war or challenged our disagreements, as you did. ] (]) 20:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I did, but you also did. So the only user to act properly at that case was @]. And guess with what opinion Quinnnnby agreed at the discussion... ] (]) 20:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{ping|Hellenic Rebel}}, Rambling Rambler is actually right: if you wish to include text which has been disputed, you '''must''' include sourcing. You cannot just attempt to force the content in, regardless of what consensus you believe has been achieved. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 21:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::@] this is exactly why I am saying that the users propagandize: there was a source used! ] (]) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Then it's time to discuss that source on the Talk page ''instead'' of just ramming into the article. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@] there was a discussion on the page. The source states that 5 MPs of the Hellenic Parliament are in the new party. And the users, after their first argument that it should have a parliamentary group was shot down (as it was obvious that this policy is not followed in any party), they moved on to a logic that the source should say verbatim "5 MPs '''stand'''" for the party... ] (]) 21:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@] I have lost hours of my life to "discussing" this at this point. They're entirely either refusing or simply incapable of understanding that because they have sources for Claim A that doesn't mean they can put a similar but still different Claim B on the article. They however insist they can because unlike us they're "Hellenic" and therefore know that Claim A = Claim B while refusing to accept this is ]. ] (]) 21:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Automatic editing, abusive behaviour, and disruptive(ish) wikihounding from ] == | |||
| *{{Userlinks|196.224.0.0/16}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|196.233.0.0/16}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|196.228.128.0/17}} | |||
| *{{Userlinks|160.159.0.0/16}} | |||
| ] appears to be making lightning speed edits that are well beyond the capacity of any human to review, in addition to article content that's coming across potentially LLM-like in nature. Since December they've made over 11,000 edits, many across multiple articles within a sixty second window. | |||
| I would just keep reporting at ], but as I submit this here, my report against the most recent range, 160.159.0.0/16, sits at AIV, seemingly being ignored (with IPs being reported '''and''' blocked within the same time frame). I'm really at a loss of what to do, because there are just ''way'' too many IPs/ranges as well as articles being targeted. Of course, we're not going to try and go around protecting every single article they edit, but it seems pointless/useless if my reports are just going to sit in AIV and possibly just be removed as a stale report. | |||
| I attempted to ask about the policies around this at ] and was met with a tirade of obscenities and abuse (which I want to give them a slight benefit of the doubt on, I'd be upset at being accused of being a bot if I wasn't): | |||
| The only other thing I can think of his creating an ] to have something to reference/link in reports at AIV, but I've never created one before and would need/prefer assistance in creating one, especially with something as massive as this LTA issue. There are many more IPs/ranges as well as articles with the same LTA issue than I have listed above. Any assistance with this at all all would be '''''massively''''' appreciated- thanks. ] (]) 20:14, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm not too active these years, but I'll probably have time at some point this week to help draw up an LTA report since that will help at AIV. What you've compiled above is already a good starting point. If there are any active sysops familiar with the case, it may also be easier to request rangeblocks directly on their user talk pages. Additional page watchers would also be helpful, so hopefully this gets some additional eyes. ] (]) 22:28, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Please create an LTA report yourself. Just be ] ] 02:01, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == An attempted ] by ] == | |||
| As far as I can tell this peaked with a total of 89 edits in a four minute window between 08:27 to 08:31 on December 28, 2024. Most are innocuous, but there are content edits thrown in the mix and recent articles were written in a way that indicates it may be an LLM ( not definitive, though if you are familiar with LLM output this may ring some alarm bells, but false alarms abound). | |||
| She misidentifies me, but engages in outing here: . ] (]) 22:58, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Following the quite hot thread at ]'s page, it's quite clear that whoever is operating that bot threw my entire edit history into the mix, because the bot systematically edited ''every single article'' that I had edited, ''in reverse order'' (over 100 so far since this came up about an couple of hours ago), going back a reasonable amount of time. | |||
| She also discusses a living person's sex life and associations here: . I sent it to oversight, but now it's relevant to the issues with this user's behavior. ] (]) 23:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Separate from the incivility/personal argument (wow that's a lot of text to read), it seems Bethsheba Ashe has some fundamental misunderstandings about how reliable sourcing and verifiability work. What started with a discussion about verifiability (where you, Skyerise, are clearly in the right) on Bethsheba Ashe's talk page apparently devolved into a rather long exchange of personal comments/aspersions (where neither participant is in the right). | |||
| :After the above-noted comments are cleaned up (if there is an outing issue)...it might be best for both involved users to disengage for a bit, and optimally a third (uninvolved) party can help explain the WP:RS and WP:V concerns for Bethsheba Ashe. ] (]—]) 23:26, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Fair enough. ] (]) 23:45, 5 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| The problem is that it's clear that a bot was instructed to just make an edit, without concern for what those edits are, so you end up with , , or at a rate far faster than any editor could address. | |||
| After viewing BA's page, I informed them of ] and alleged that their userpage is quite likely to be considered promotional. BA responds with, as far as I can tell, that they will only comply if Skyerise retracts their comments from the ] page. I asked to clarify that this is effectively an ultimatum and BA has not yet responded, despite editing since. This is an absurd and non-sequitur demand that implies BA wants to ] the article or "win" on the internet more than improve Misplaced Pages and adhere to its policies. ] (]) 16:34, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * I have notified the alleged sockmaster about this report, as a matter of courtesy.—]]] 08:56, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Thanks. I didn't know the person mentioned was on WP, or I'd have done so myself. ] (]) 13:35, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| This one is easily one of the strangest situations I've ever encountered on Misplaced Pages. ] 20:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Quick-fire edits == | |||
| :I'm flattered that you've looked into my activity on Misplaced Pages so closely. But if you'd be arsed, you'd understand that it is very simple to do an insource search using a regular expression to find a lot of stylistic errors, like no space after a sentence. If you love being on my back so much, good on you, but I'd wish if you got off. ] (]) 20:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| A month or two ago I reported an instance of an editor making numerous edits to seemingly unrelated, articles, all without explanation, within a very short space of time. I was admonished for not notifying the editor. I have just stumbled on another similar set of edits by ], most of which I reverted with explanation. Most seemed arbitrary changes without improving the article and some changed the meaning of idiomatic language. ] (]) 00:24, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::1) That doesn't explain how consistently abusive you have been | |||
| :I saw the edits. Some are good. Few are problematic. Anyway, this is not a bot; this is a newcomer goaded by our ]. Instead of chiding them on their talk page, please perhaps revert your warning to them and leave a few words of motivation. Thanks, ] 04:21, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::2) While I'm aware that an overwhelming percentage of the errors you're editing out are ones that can simply be addressed by regex, I'm very clearly raising the content edits as opposed to formatting ones. ] 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thankes {{u|Lourdes}}. Did I come across as censorious? That was not my intention, but I will retract and suggest to the editor that they read the whole sentence to establish its intent and meaning before editing. I will have to investigate Newcomer Tasks further: are they calibrated to the user's interests and home country? The list of topics this editor attacked is bewilderingly diverse. ] (]) 05:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :How about we take this off of ANI, of all places? ] (]) 21:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::See my comments at ]. This new, eager editor got tripped up by the same sort of thing. While fluent in English, it was not their first language. Getting little grammar and usage edits right is paradoxically harder in some ways than writing whole new articles. The point about Newcomer Tasks is a good one. --<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 16:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. ] 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Obviously, if there's someone who's making bad decisions on Misplaced Pages (You), I want to check if he has messed up articles. Please tell me what articles you think I have damaged. ] (]) 21:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also, I'd appreciate if you would stop casting aspersions about me being an LLM. ] (]) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. ] 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. ] (]) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::<s>Unless you're doing regex with your eyes, clearly you're using assistance. And the fact you're (still!) doing something that fixes the same type of typo almost as fast as I can click "Random Article" indicates you're doing more than just regex. You're finding these articles somehow.</s> <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 22:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I am doing an "insource" search using regex. ] (]) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. ] (]) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Ah . I wasn't aware one could do that. I retract. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 22:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::And, I would appreciate if you would stop calling my edits strange and odd. ] (]) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You had over 100 edits in a row directily in chronological sequence, from newest to oldest, of my exact edit history excluding wikiprojects and talk pages. I'm allowed to find that a little strange. ] 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Why shouldn't someone call strange and odd edits strange and odd? ] (]) 21:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :@] I suggest you stop with the personal attacks before you get blocked. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that {{u|KMaster888}} should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. ] (]) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. ] (]) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'll just ask you straight up.{{pb}}Do you feel any remorse for this statement? {{tq|remove asshole}} {{pb}}Could you explain why you felt it was best to choose those two words when blanking your talk page? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::And again: {{tq|@The Corvette ZR1 @Tarlby stop clogging up ANI with your comments.}} ]<sup>]</sup> 22:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::, , , , , ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::And this: and this: ] (]) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. ] (]) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You have to abide by the rules like the rest of us. And cool it with the hostile edit summaries. ]] 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::]. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You are clearly ]. Attacking other editors instead of backing off, inappropriate edit summaries, what next? ]<sup>]</sup> 21:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::There ought to be a gossip noticeboard that doesn't clog up ANI. ] (]) 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I will dispute what you said. I AM HERE to build an encyclopedia. Why do you think I would have given 10,000 edits worth of my time if I didn't care? ] (]) 21:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, ] and ] tell me the contrary. ]<sup>]</sup> 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries ''and here'' indicate they're ] in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. ] (]) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: ] over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of ] of the ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. ] (]) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::: is wikilawyering. And this is at ANI, so the discussion is taking place at ANI. Answering the concerns about your conduct that were raised here on here is how you resolve the issue, not "don't talk about it on ANI", as the latter gives the impression of trying to sweep them under the rug - especially since your edit summaries MrOllie linked above make it clear this is very much not "small potatoes". - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Here's some more diffs of KMaster888 being uncivil. From my user talk page. . I think these are forgivable if in isolation since KMaster888 may be frustrated by false accusations of being a bot, but if it's a pattern, it may need addressing. | |||
| :The ] and ] of my user talk page and of this ANI is also a behavioral problem that, if a pattern, may also need addressing. It is disrespectful to interlocutor's time and brainpower to dominate discussions by replying to everything. –] <small>(])</small> 23:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. ] (]) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The problem isn't you responding to those comments. It's about HOW you responded to those comments. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::There are, in fact, {{tqq|specific discussion rules}} - ] and ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Propose indefinite block=== | |||
| == Reporting behavior of ] == | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked and TPA revoked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 06:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|KMaster888}} | |||
| They demonstrate a severe inability to interact in the collegiate manner this project requires. The edit summaries are not merely uncivil, but dismissive: ignoring colleagues is worse than just being rude to them. Their behaviour on Novem Linguae's talk pretty much sums it up.{{pb}}Whether they are actually a bot or running a scruipt doesn't really matter: WP:BOTLIKE is pretty cl;ear trhat "it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance". So 10,000 edits or not, the edits smack of being bot/script-generated, and may also be WP:STALKING.{{PB}}I also don't set any store by the excuse for "wiping ass with comments", "improve asinine comment" and "remove asshole" being that {{blue|Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly.}} WMF servers going down (or not) do not cause aggressive edit summaries, and we are not fools. The fact that the same attitude pervades through this discussion—"everyone, get off my back"—suggests that this is default behaviour rather than a one off. ]'']''] 23:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :You're saying "they" like it's more than one person. I am one editor. ] (]) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Not in that sense. We use they/them pronouns as to not assume an editor's gender. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per above reasoning. ]] 23:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Looks like {{noping|Cullen328}} beat us to that indef. ]] 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per ] behavior. Their blank talkpage, on which they encourage discussion, has a nonexistent archive. ]] 23:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:That is not true. The archive page is at the subpage of the talk page, /archive. ] (]) 23:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Support -''' While I wouldn’t have had the same suspicions about their editing as Warren, their extremely uncivil reactions to it and further questions here, along with the further attention they’ve drawn on to prior recent behaviour has effectively demonstrated an unwillingness to engage in meaningful interaction with any other editor who disagrees with them. ] (]) 23:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] is heavily removing contents in pages about countries, even those with good references, for . They have been warned multiple times by different users such as ] ], ], and ], that at least they should be leaving a template "citation needed" behind to encourage editors to find some sources that are needed, but they back their actions with ], of which they misunderstand it. I tried to warn them ] and even pinged three admins so that they could help/intervene (well, I don't know if pings work anymore). Looks like their new old account (as of today) is solely for removing contents in pages in the name of so-called reference. My concern is that they keep on ] this and clearly, they have no idea about the pages they are removing contents from. --- ]] 07:55, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Maybe revoke TPA too? This is beyond the pale. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :@] From what I'm reading, your concern is that the user doesn't follow ] and keeps using ] as the reason for their removals. While I agree that their removals are concerning, especially since the edit summaries don't explain if they tried to find sources. I also don't see them being informed of ]. I believe @] knows about ] given their experience on here, so not pointing a newcomer towards it looks like ] to me. Just telling them that they're doing something wrong without pointing to the policy is not a good look. ] (]) 08:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Wow… ] ] 00:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] This user has been warned many times and if you read ] thread, you will understand that alternatives were suggested similar to ] but they simply choose their way, or not to. ]] 12:42, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}}I have indefinitely blocked KMaster888 for personal attacks and harassment, and disruptive behavior. ] (]) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Brlob seems to believe that content that's poorly sourced should simply deleted. ] they removed the entire Sports section from ], despite the fact that it did have two sources. ] they blanked the entire article of ], and when an IP ], they ], writing {{tq|"please provide citation to removed content"}}. These are not their only problematic edits: ]. In addition, {{u|1AmNobody24}}, I did not mention ] because I assumed they were already aware of it (judging from the existence of other conversations on their talk page). They were, however, told they were supposed to stop, and their failure to do so (and insistence that unsourced content must be removed) made me tell them to stop. Either way, this section blanking should stop. Someone would also do well to inform Brlob of the citation style of the past that lacked in-line links to sources. Sources may exist in articles even if some content appears unsourced. ] (]'''-''']) 17:25, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :After their latest personal attack, I have revoked their talk page access. ] (]) 23:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::My sense is that this is a new, conscientious, somewhat stubborn editor working to improve Misplaced Pages based on their reading of the content policies. We need people like this that can look at our articles and do some critical thinking. Our challenge is working with them to bring them along so they don't create problems. I don't think sanctions are the way to meet this goal; it would drive Brlob off or lead Brlob to plant his feet. Most of you all have been patiently explaining things and I encourage you to continue doing so even though I know it's hard. | |||
| *'''Support'''. is beyond the pale. This is clearly a person that lets rage get the best of them, and is not responsive to feedback. Not sure if we should close this, or let it play out and turn into a CBAN. –] <small>(])</small> 00:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::P.S. shout out to @] for all the work you're doing on those smaller Wikipedias! --<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 17:30, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Good block''' and I'd have done same if you hadn't been here first. Regardless of whether the edits were improvements, no one has the right to treat other editors as KM888 did. ] ] 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::They've just ] "{{tq|I may restore the latest version after 4 days or so if source are not found.}}" @], since you informed them of the existence of WP:Preserve, what do you think should be done? This appears to be a case of ], and I have no solution for it. ] (]'''-''']) 00:44, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Jeez. | |||
| :::::I just took the liberty, as you’ve by now seen, of responding on your talk page to the deadline he gave you. I also left another note on his talk page. | |||
| :::::I don’t think he’s ever used an article’s talk page - that’s where he needs to discuss all his edits. | |||
| :::::If he doesn’t come around in his next edits, the next step may be to temporarily block him for several weeks from editing article. He could still edit article talk pages. | |||
| :::::We’ll see - I’d like to help him but you others have already been patient with him and he’s still pretty set in his mind. <span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 02:00, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::@], @], This user is not a newcomer, he is just a user in a new account, provided their stubbornness to follow direct polices and not listening from others. Newcomers listen to what they are being advised but this one doesn't. Misplaced Pages is not a game with timeout, everybody can take responsibility of it. Instead of removing some contents and giving timeouts, @] can also take responsibility in finding sources online regarding the subject. Despite pointing them to Misplaced Pages polices, they still don't do what they are being advised. I suggest and '''strongly '''support the block idea for a few weeks till he puts himself together. | |||
| ::::::<br> | |||
| :::::: ] your recognition of my activity on other wikis reassures me that my work has not gone unnoticed ''':)''' Thanks for that! ]] 05:59, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :It's a sock account, master is obvious. I've now filed a report and am confident it will be indeffed very shortly. — ] ] 07:01, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Good catch. Both edit in Vietnamese: | |||
| ::*] | |||
| ::So much for my naivety.—<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 08:42, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I wonder what his motivation is??—<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 08:43, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Good block''' It'd take a hand-written miracle from God for them to change their ways anytime soon. | |||
| == ] at Berber languages == | |||
| :] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 03:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ===Investigating the hounding claim=== | |||
| ] keeps edit warring at ] disregarding attempts at constructive discussion and consensus-building. They keep deleting sourced content and replacing it with outdated unreliable ones that suit their personal bias, such as ones from the 19th century and mirrors of Misplaced Pages (]), even trying to cite images in the talk page. They have also cited a journal from 1986 but I am not sure whether its reliable or not. I have tried solving the dispute by combining all sources in a neutral tone, but this user continues to claim that the word Amazigh was used as an ethnonym for the Berber people, despite his source only suggesting that outsiders used similar sounding words (Mazacs/Mazighes/Mazazaces) to refer to them. They completely misinterpeted it and claimed that Berbers called each other Amazigh . They misinterpreted another source to claim that the word was historically used in North Africa, despite the source being in present tense and talking about modern day usage, not historic. Their assumption just shows that they're just spreading original research. In my talk page, they declared their intention to edit war and made personal attacks, consequently breaking the 3 revert rule in the article. In other related pages, they make unsourced edits. ] (]) 11:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Above, there is a claim that KMaster888 is ] Warrenmck by editing 100 pages that Warrenmck has edited. The suggests that there's only an overlap of 45 pages (42 if you subtract out my user talk, KMaster888's user talk, and ANI). {{u|Warrenmck}}, can you please be very specific about exactly which pages overlap? Maybe give a link to KMaster888's contribs and timestamps of where this range of hounding edits begins and ends? This is a serious claim and probably actionable if enough evidence is provided. –] <small>(])</small> 23:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I know nothing about the underlying content dispute, but ] is showing an unwillingness to settle things cooperatively with . Maybe an admin with a block hammer would be "official" enough? ] (]) 12:21, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Agreed. Looks like ] doesn't know how the Wiki works :/ (and really doesn't want to learn). Clearly ]. ]] ] (he/him) 12:39, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::He was unwilling to accept the fact amazigh people called themselves amazigh in the past and call themselves amazigh in the present demonstrated by Salem Chaker's paper he is still trying to ignore because "its from 1986" the reason why I said that is because he kept reverting my edits and sending me messages that seem professional in my talk page to stop me from reverting his, I was the one who asked for a third party... ] (]) 13:03, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::You have to combat misinformation. He is just trying to discredit my perfectly reasonable sources because one of them was from the 19th century, in what way is that a problem, the source is for the etymology of a word. The only images I sent in his talk page were extracts of works I've sourced that I assumed he didn't have access to, I don't see why it would cause any problem if I didn't use images as sources in the actual article? | |||
| :::In North African politics, it is very common for racist people to call Berbers Bulgar invaders or a French nationalist fabrication, he did a personal attack as well. | |||
| :::I don't see why I should be sourcing a claim like "the letter gaf is used in Shilha", are people sourcing their claim that Jawi uses the Gaf? Matter of fact, nobody sources any claim of usage of the letter in that article. ] (]) 13:16, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Just discuss the issue on the talk page rather than edit war and say that you will continue edit warring. ] (]) 13:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I discussed the issue on his talk page, I invite you to read it. ] (]) 13:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I have already refuted your claims yet you continue to make the same assertions. Your source does not support "amazigh people called themselves amazigh in the past". It only mentions the exonyms which foreigners referred to them as, but you are misinterpreting this and claiming that Berbers called each other with endonyms which is completely false. This only shows your intentions to POV push as you deleted sourced content which clearly said Berbers did not have a collective endonym for themselves, and you continue to edit war to delete this from the page. To address your false accusation, I have never called Berbers "Bulgar invaders or a French nationalist fabrication". Your remark trying to indirectly refer to me as "racist" is another personal attack. ] (]) 15:45, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Here, the word Amazigh was used AS AN ETHNONYM by amazigh people in Antiquity https://www.cairn.info/revue-strategique-2009-1-page-129.htm?ref=doi#no5, amazigh people used the word Amazigh in the middle ages (Van Boogert 1997 in the sources I put in the article), and use it today (Kossmann 2020 in the sources I put in the article). How is it a Berber nationalist fabrication? ] (]) 15:55, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::That source doesn't support your claims either, nor does it mention any specific ethnonym. Could you provide a direct quote? If you are referring to "Masax", it appears that you are misinterpreting sources again. Using a translation of a word by Van Boogert does not prove that the word was used either. Please do not go off topic, the focus here is what they referred to themselves historically, not the present. It is interesting to note that you previously cited the same present-tense source to support your claim about the historic use of 'Amazigh' as an endonym. ] (]) 16:22, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::] ] Would a block proposal for ] be necessary at this point? This user's constant disruptive editing and personal attacks clearly warrant a block. ]] ] (he/him) 16:31, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Yes, I agree that implementing a block would be necessary in this situation. Taluzet appears to be an ethnic pov-pushing account that is clearly ] just like you said. ] (]) 16:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::We'll see what mods decide to do. | |||
| ::::::::::In the meantime it would be lovely of your to answer my question. ] (]) 16:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::It does prove it though? Van de Boogert's book contains a transliteration and translation of a 17th century Shilha Book, where the word "tamazixt" is used to refer to the language, and "imazighn" is used to refer to "Berbers". | |||
| :::::::Did you read my source? "Corippe emploie le terme grec et poétique d’''“armée massyle''” pour qualifier l’armée des tribus maures. Il utilise aussi le mot “''Mazax''” que les Maures emploient pour se désigner". A Latin author from the 6th century reports the word "Mazax" that they use to self designate. | |||
| :::::::Now a question, do you believe the word imazighn is a 20th century invention? ] (]) 16:40, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::In what way is "Maxax" the same thing as "Amazigh"? And in what way does a single word in a 17th century book prove that it was widespread and used all over the Maghreb? To answer your question, I do not make up facts but I will let you read what the source I left on the talk page says . The point of this discussion is not for you to repeat your same arguments, I will leave this conversation for the administrators to decide. ] (]) 17:08, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Mazax is obviously the same word as amazigh, gh and x in Tamazight are interchangeable (hence the variant tamazixt used by Chleuh), of course a Latin author would not write "Amazigh" and will corrupt the word a little, it happens for all ethnonyms transcribed to Latin. | |||
| :::::::::The multiple times Amazigh/Tamazixt are used in modern and Medieval books shows it was in use in the Middle Ages, and since it's used now all over Morocco as well as by Tuaregs, we can conclude there's a contuinuity in Amazigh as an autonym. ] (]) 17:40, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::That's called original research. Like ] said, you're still misunderstanding the nature of this discussion. ] (]) 17:48, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *], you seem to misunderstand the nature of this discussion. Issues of what source says what should be discussed on the article talk page. This discussion is about your behaviour in editing the article before a consensus is reached, and saying that you will continue to do so. Once again, I know nothing about the underlying content dispute, and this is not the place to discuss it. ] (]) 16:53, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I tried to reach a consensus, but all he kept repeating was "your sources aren't reliable" and "your source is from 1876". When he called it a French nationalist invention I understood that his motive wasn't to reach a consensus. ] (]) 17:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::I never called it a French nationalist invention. Do not spread false information about me. ] (]) 17:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Oh my bad, I was refering to this quote from your talk page "The term Imazighen was introduced by Berber nationalists in the 20th century to counter the image that they were a collection of diverse tribes". Although this is also a factually wrong trope used by Anti-Berbers, since the word is very well attested. ] (]) 17:53, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::But please, even if you block me, don't keep that false remark in the Berber languages page, it is such a recurring theme in Anti-Berber discourse and so easily disprovable, just read the talk page. ] (]) 17:56, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::::This just shows that you didn't read any of the sources I sent. "To counter the image that Berbers were a mere collection of disparate tribes speaking mutually incomprehensible dialects, they introduced an indigenous term of self-referral–Imazighen". I did not make up anything or misinterpret anything like you did. ] (]) 17:58, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Ah yes, tribes, that each speak a separate language, definitely accurate and has no undertones. | |||
| *:::::Anyways, I added a remark that Berbers were not culturally unified, but to say they didn't use the word amazigh is false. ] (]) 18:36, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::It is true that imazighen as a term that applies to all Berbers wasn't the reality, as most Berbers weren't even aware of the existance of their relatedgroups, it was simply a shared word most Berbers used to refer to their own group. You're mixing self-referral and united identity. Amazigh in the modern day was expanded to mean all Berber groups, because it is a well attested word in practically all of the Amazigh languages, that aren't limited to '''tribes''' ] (]) 18:40, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * Propose '''partial block from the article for both users''' due to the straightforward comparison of to , which reflects well on no one. Then, after you've both had a good long read of ], you can move on to the steps described at ]. --] (]) 21:58, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:We discussed it on my talk page. ] (]) 10:40, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| === Block proposal for ] === | |||
| Taluzet has been disruptive editing, edit warring (and when confronted about it, dismissively continued to edit war) and personal attacks. I propose an indef block on Taluzet's account. ]] ] (he/him) 16:58, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Agreed''': this user is clearly ]. Deleting sourced content, source misinterpretation, ethnic POV-pushing, edit warring, personal attacks. ] (]) 17:12, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::You misinterpreted the source yourself, she said "they do not refer to themselves as Berber", and you wrote "they do not refer to themselves as Berber/Amazigh", when did I attack you personally? ] (]) 17:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::I did not, and this place isn't for you to repeat the same arguments. Go and have a look at the talk page. ] (]) 17:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Note that there are >100 ''edits'' across the pages, since they tended to edit in a spree. The number of pages you found seems accurate, even accounting for the possibility of a few outside of this exchange. I’m not sure what exactly I can do to show the relationship to my edit history beyond I guess go pull said histories and compare them? But I wouldn’t be surprised if the vast majority of the interactions you see were from that narrow window after your talk page. | |||
| '''Comment''' noting that I've seen this Amazigh thing elsewhere, , there may be a broader ] issue. ] (]) 15:24, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes it's a pretty well known issue in North African politics, Amazigh is the word Berbers prefer to use to refer to their people, since the word Barbar in Arabic means Barbarian, and that a lot of Berber languages share variants the word "Amazigh" to refer to their people, or Tamazight to refer to the language, but some people, non-Berbers mostly, don't like using it, so they justify it by saying it is a modern invention and that Berbers never used 'Amazigh' to refer to themselves, | |||
| :I don't mind using Berber for terminology, but I was perplexed at the claim that it wasn't used, me myself being a speaker from a group that uses it actively. ] (]) 17:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks for the info, sounds plausible (and quite human). The basic WP-solution is to use what sources generally use, and perhaps ''try'' to add Amazigh sometimes on some sort of ] basis. It ''may'' be productive to attempt a ] on "How should we mention Amazigh in Berber-related articles?" at someplace like ]. ] (]) 18:12, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Sorry for the drama, by the way. ] 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Request action against a long-time disruptive user == | |||
| ::Ah that makes sense. I didn't think of the multiple edits to a page thing. No worries about the drama. –] <small>(])</small> 02:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Please don't apologise for this. Nobody should have to put up with such behaviour. ] (]) 09:47, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:FMSky == | |||
| I have decided to report the user @] for improper conduct and offensive remarks. I will start by presenting the case that impelled me to take this course of action and I will follow with some considerations about the user, in order to provide more information for the best judgment possible. | |||
| {{atop|1=]. PolitcalPoint blocked for a month for BLP violations. - ] <sub>]</sub> 06:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{Userlinks|FMSky}} | |||
| ] has been persistently engaging in ] by constantly reverting (see , , and ) in bad faith over the course of more than a week in order to prevent the insertion of sourced material that states that ] had "{{tq|touted working for her father’s anti-gay organization, which mobilized to pass a measure against ] and promoted controversial ]", which is a discredited, harmful, and ] practice that falsely purports to "cure" ].}}" backed by two ] cited (see and ) in support of the specific wording inserted into the article. | |||
| On 28 May, after I removed some content I deemed irrelevant from a Benfica related page, I was once again accused of censorship by him. I explained what happened ], and two other users agreed with me that the information deleted was not particularly relevant and could be stated elsewhere. I thought that was the second time it happened and I told the user I would report him if he did it a third time, a warning he disregarded with a silly reply. But, to my surprise, after reading the other comment he wrote towards me, I found out I had miscounted and the episode of 28 May was, in fact, the third time he made similar suggestions. The other two times were and . | |||
| For my part, I have consistently maintained a strict self-imposed policy of 0RR, never even once reverting ], listening to his concerns and taking his concerns seriously, tirelessly working to address his concerns with two ] cited (see and ) in support of the exact same wording that ] originally objected to (see ), then, when reverted again by ], I patiently continued to ] and ] (see and ), which he ], then when reverted yet again by ] (see ), explained to him the entire series of events (see ), which ] replied to by blatantly lying that I had not addressed his concerns (see ), which, when I pointed that out and showed him the ] that I cited in order to address his concerns (see ), ] replied by saying verbatim "How is that even relevant? Just because something is mentioned in a source doesn't mean this exact wording is appropriate for an encyclopedia." (see ). | |||
| I do not mind being called a liar. I do not like having my contribution being constantly reverted but I understand that my opinions can be and sometimes are wrong. I have accepted that if I do not take the higher road with this user, by ending or avoiding conflicts (meaning refraining from replying/contributing), these will not be solved peacefully. I am a tolerant person. Now, what I simply cannot consent to is being accused of censorship. I consider these injuries directed at me to be extremely offensive when freedom of speech is the civil liberty I value the most (for those who are not aware, Portugal lived under a dictatorship for several decades in the 20th century, a period that ended on a day that is now celebrated as ]). I value what was achieved in 1974 and I find it insulting to speak in such a frivolous way about censorship. I warned the user I would report him at strike three, so here I am. | |||
| I'm completely exasperated and exhausted at this point. If even using the ''exact same wording'' as the ] cited in support of the specific wording inserted into the article is ''still'' unacceptable to ], then I'm not sure what I'm even supposed to do to satisfy him. ] is clearly engaging in ] in bad faith and is ]. --] (]) 23:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Now, concerning the character of the user. When I started editing Benfica related articles, he was friendly towards me, to the point of . Unfortunately, once our visions started to differ, there was a behavior change and he got more hostile. A few examples of this range from playing the "I already did this before you even edited Misplaced Pages" card, reverting first and creating the discussion sections in the talk pages later (while telling others to proceed the other way around), , or simply reverting a contribution previously made only to add that information moments later (example: instead of adding the source , he discarded my contribution just for the to have the updated info reinstated with the source). | |||
| :@], your for "discredited, harmful, and pseudoscientific practice that falsely purports to "cure" homosexuality" doesn't mention Gabbard or Hawaii or her father's organization. Have you read ]? ] ] 23:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::More the case that trying to assert conversion therapy as discredited is a COATRACK, unless there was appropriate sourced coverage that associated Gabbatd with supporting a discredited theory. We can leave the blue link on conversion therapy carry the worry of explaining the issues with it, it doesn't belong on a BLP.<span id="Masem:1736293194333:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators'_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt"> — ] (]) 23:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)</span> | |||
| ::The wording does not "imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources" as the latter part of the wording, as supported by the second ] (see ), explains what ] is for the benefit of readers. --] (]) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Are you kidding me lmao. I didn't even notice that. That makes it even worse --] (]) 23:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Only commenting on this particular angle: {{ping|Schazjmd}} when dealing with fringe ideas, it ''is'' sometimes the case that sources provide weight connecting the subject to a fringe idea but which do not themselves adequately explain the fringe theory. If it's due weight to talk about something like conversation therapy (or creation science, links between vaccines and autism, etc.), we run afoul of ] if we don't provide proper context. These cases are rare, however, and this isn't a judgment about anything in the rest of this thread. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 02:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The user was previously blocked and was only unblocked after agreeing to 0RR on BLPs. This was violated in the 3 reverts here and the concerns weren't adressed: , , . See also the previous discussion on PoliticalPoint's talk page that I initiated -- ] (]) 23:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{tq|FMSky replied by saying verbatim "How is that even relevant? Just because something is mentioned in a source doesn't mean this exact wording is appropriate for an encyclopedia.}} I love how you, in bad faith, left out the most relevant part that I added: "And the statements weren't even attributed to someone" --] (]) 23:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::As ] (see ), those were edits, not reverts, over the course of more than week, and as also ] (see and ) your concerns with the wording were in fact addressed with two ] cited in support with the ''exact same wording'' that you objected to, verbatim. You are blatantly lying again, as the statement is, in fact, attributed to Gabbard herself as it is she herself who "touted working for her father's anti-gay organization", which is backed by the first ] (see ). --] (]) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No, these were reverts, as the wording I originally objected to was restored numerous times --] (]) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Those were edits over the course of over a week. The wording that you originally objected to was restored only with two ] that use the ''exact same wording'' verbatim. --] (]) 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::If you used the same wording as the sources without an attributed quote you've committed a copyright violation. ] (]) 00:16, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Restoring removed content even without using the undo feature is a revert. ] (]) 00:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::See above, Gabbard isn't even mentioned in one of the sources, which is insane and negates the need for any further discussion. This content should not be on her page & is probably the definition of a BLP violation. --] (]) | |||
| Besides removing obvious SYNTH, I notice that FMSky reworked unnecessary overquoting; looks like good editing on FMSky's part. ] (]) 00:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Due to the constant arguing with this user, I stopped editing several Benfica pages: the most recent season page I collaborated on is the 2017–18 one; my last edits to S.L. Benfica, S.L. Benfica B and S.L. Benfica (youth) articles date to , and respectively, etc. After a while, in which there were , that made me think that this user had changed, I am once again confronted with his defamatory remarks and his over-the-top posture. | |||
| Another thing I just noticed is that the article is special-protected: {{tq|"You must follow the bold-revert-discuss cycle if your change is reverted. You may not reinstate your edit until you post a talk page message discussing your edit and have waited 24 hours from the time of this talk page message."}} No such discussion was initiated on Gabbard's talk page --] (]) 00:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| It is not for me to evaluate, but I truly believe this user cannot and will not change his disruptive and impulsive attitude, specially in articles where he considers himself an authority and believes he has ''carte blanche'' to do whatever he wants (the disdain he showed when I warned him of a possible report supports this statement). He constantly accuses other users of having multiple accounts (to me, it happened and , among others), he edited the user pages of two other users without their consent ( and ), and he engaged in two other unacceptable personal attacks: he called me a (disregarding my contributions and meaning I do not provide value to Misplaced Pages) and he called another user (short for "filho da puta", literally "son of a bitch" in Portuguese). | |||
| *I have blocked PoliticalPoint for a month for BLP violations, an escalation of their prior two-week edit warring block. I had originally intended to just p-block them from Gabbard but I am not convinced they understand the issue and that the problematic editing wouldn't just move to another page. Should they eventually request an unblock I think serious discussion sould happen w/r/t a a topic ban on BLPs or American Politics. ] ] 01:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I am pretty sure he will try to deconstruct my case and clear his image by showing that I also did several things wrong in the past. With that in mind, I only want to point out that I do not recall having a single altercation with any other user, and he has already a conflict history with several users, which granted him a . | |||
| With everything I presented here, I believe the moderation has reasons to intervene and I hope they do. ] (]) 19:04, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :TL;DR. All I know is that, since {{user|P3DRO}} got permanently blocked, for harrassing and insulting me for years, Besteirense become more active again (what a coincidence) and started conflicting with me until the creation of this report. While Besteirense has been complaining, I've been improving Misplaced Pages. Goodbye. PS: you don't own the "2017–18 S.L. Benfica season" article. ] (]) 20:53, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::SLBedit, looking at Besteirense’s edits, it looks like this editor has been consistently making about 20 edits per quarter for at least 2 years. I don’t see much (if any) an increase after P3DRO was blocked in January 2023. | |||
| ::We don’t routinely and repeatedly accuse others of being sock puppets. | |||
| ::You should assume Besteirense is independent of P3DRO unless proven otherwise. —<span style="font-family:Futura">] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup></span> 21:11, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::The feeling I have is that he started editing more Benfica-related articles after P3DRO got blocked. BTW, "a blank file (disregarding my contributions and meaning I do not provide value to Misplaced Pages)" is a complete lie; it wasn't "blank file", but "BlankFile", which is a user from serbenfiquista.com ] (]) 21:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, Be QuietAL728 hasn't retired; actually, he continues very active in Portuguese football-related bios (it seems he can't quit Misplaced Pages), the only difference is that he gave up on his previous accounts, and exposes his IP addresses like he did before the account creation. PS: User is back with another account since December 2022. ] (]) 21:30, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|A. B.}} I find it very odd that Besteirense knows so much about my interactions with P3DRO. It's pretty obvious the two are related (otherwise, why would Besteirense be so interesting in defending PEDRO?), and I'm not saying they are sock accounts! ] (]) 21:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::As for the "thanks", so what? I also and other users. ] (]) 21:36, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::The "long-time disruptive user" (LOL) has contributed more to Misplaced Pages than many other users, and has reverted vandalism (and reported it) countless times. Calling me that is an offense. ] (]) 21:41, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::If I recall correctly, it was Besteirense who accused me of wanting to have the "last edit" (sic) on articles – a way of trying to limit my contributions to Misplaced Pages – while he did/does exactly that in the 2017–18 S.L. Benfica season, article which he created. ] (]) 22:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::This report is the perfect example of cherry picking. ] (]) 22:28, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I would like to point out three things: first, the accusations of being a sock puppet only stopped after '''A. B.''' called the accuser to reason. I guess that is already a tiny win. | |||
| :Second, I was not defending '''P3DRO''' or his behavior; I just used his example (one of many) to prove that the target of my report does not always contribute to this environment with good content, or calling someone a "fdp" is a positive interaction? What is the excuse that justifies and leaves unpunished the author of this personal attack? What about vandalizing '''Be QuietAL728''''s user page, is that quality content? | |||
| :And third, moving right past from the nervous attempts to divert the attention from what is really important, I will make the goal of my complain crystal clear: I did not wrote that '''SLBedit''' did not had an overall positive contribution to Misplaced Pages; I have shown, through my example (again, one of many) that his attitude does not allow other users to have better contributions, namely in Benfica related pages, either by having their words reverted by someone who does not assume good faith or by lack of participation (I mentioned my self-imposed ban on several pages). | |||
| :''Post-scriptum'': six years from 2017 to 2023. So, yes, it has been a long time; no offense there. ] (]) 00:04, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::"his attitude does not allow other users to have better contributions" is another lie. If a contribution is perfect, I'll leave it. If it's good and can be improved, I'll improve it. If it doesn't improve anything or is vandalism, I'll revert it. You are simply digging up the past – all that was settled a long time ago – because you can't stand me improving your contributions. ] (]) 11:23, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{u|SLBedit}}, hi. You both are long-term contributors. It's not conducive to proactive editing if you allude to another editor as a possible sock. I don't want you to get me wrong, but either take the report to SPI or immediately stop these accusations and consider this a final warning. Once again, please don't take these words negatively. My intent is to ensure you guys discuss proactively. To issues of content, I see both your sides and would tend to encourage further proactive article talk-page discussions that lead to consensus. ] is a good way to go if you both don't succeed in gaining consensus. Start with this and let's see how it goes. Once again, no sock accusation any more please. Thanks, ] 10:39, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | status = | |||
| | result = {{nac}} {{u|Golfeditor1}} has been indefinitely blocked by PhilKnight for harassment. ] (]) 13:21, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| {{user|Golfeditor1}} is clearly ]. Their edits have mostly been confined to one article, ], in what appears to be an attempt to write a positive autobiography. No sources have been provided to support their additions and they have removed anything they deem "undesirable". After I reverted their changes to restore reliably sourced content, and valid maintenance tags, they have taken to vandalising my user page. The same pattern of behaviour was seen 7 years ago. Requesting a PBLOCK at the very least to prevent further disruption. <sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:16, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| : I have indef blocked for harassment. ] (]) 19:28, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :: I would put a lot of money on them being the article subject. Especially looking at the photos that are "own work" from them. No one goes around and takes photos of a practically non-notable golfer like that over a decade of time and doesn't cover anyone else. ] ] 20:01, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Yup, confirmed. , . They were just using Misplaced Pages for rather bad self promotion. ] ] 20:06, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Looks like ], ], ] and ] are also the same person (Gary Lincoln Tienie Birch Jr.). ] (]) 20:08, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Likely. Regardless I can't actually see how they are notable, and the article should probably be deleted. However I'm not an expert on sports people notability. ] ] 20:13, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *When my eye fell on the article's passage {{tq|In 2014 Birch changed his name during transition}}, I though ''Uh oh'', but it turns out the sentence in full reads: {{tq|In 2014 Birch changed his name during transition out of active professional sport}}. ]] 20:20, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Gave me slight pause as well. Very poor self promotion going on here, not sure why or to what end but it's pretty terrible. ] ] 20:22, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Page has been AfD'd by the subject's request: ] (]) 10:04, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | {{abot}} | ||
| == User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating ] == | |||
| == Theonewithreason's behaviour on ], ], either dishonesty or competence issues, making false claims and baseless accusations == | |||
| *{{userlinks|Bgsu98}} | |||
| Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.<br /> | |||
| I made on ] adding a link to ] under the ″see also″ section, which was reverted by ] with edit summary ″rv per ], see lack of this assertion in other countries i.e ],],],] etc″ . | |||
| I noticed an editor named {{u|Bgsu98}} who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by ] before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)<br />I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at ]. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought. | |||
| I should note that {{u|Bgsu98}} doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated ] (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (]). One can really wonder why he does this. | |||
| I was a bit baffled how a mere link could be ″undue″, so I started a discussion on ], mentioning that in fact their examples of countries used in their edit summary do contain links to their respective crime articles, with the exception of Russia (which at the time did not have such a link, but now does). Soon after making the edit and starting the thread, I discovered the existence of a ″law and criminal justice″ section that I had previously missed, and changed my stance to that being the location the link should go to, which would be only logical for readers given that ] is also linked there. The discussion then turned to Serbia's amount of crime with TOWR claiming low rates of certain crimes means the link is undue, and that including it means , with me pointing out that even taking ] in account Serbia does have notable instances of crime, such as being behind only Russia in Europe when it comes to organized crime rates, and two highly reported on mass shootings recently taking places within days of each other etc. | |||
| P.S. More information is here: ]. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of ]. It seems that no one acted on this change until {{u|Bgsu98}} came. | |||
| I rather quickly sensed the discussion wasn't going anywhere, with TOWR claiming it is already ″covered″ because the Serbia article contains a link to ] at the bottom of the article, that in turn contains the link to the crime article, which I argued is the opposite of easy access for readers per ] when there is already a relevant section on the article. Because of this, I started an RfC in hopes of more uninvolved input. Eventually another editor responded and made the same point I had made above about the ″law and criminal justice″ section and ″law of Serbia″ link, I respond to them confirming that is how I was thinking as well, and that was the point where for whatever reason TOWR decides to claim that I was not, . Like most others, I don't like people misrepresenting what I say, and thankfully Misplaced Pages has an excellent page history feature making it easy to fact check who said what, so I replied that they're wrong and my stance has been from almost the beginning that the link should go to the relevant body section, when they it started to become increasingly difficult to assume good faith but I figured possibly there's language issues, which they also denied and threw in a baseless false accusation of (for adding a link to a crime article in a section covering law and criminal justice, seriously?). If it isn't a language barrier, it's either lying or competence issues, so when I continue to call out their false claims about what I am advocating for they start accusing me of ″personal attacks″. I find it bizarre behaviour to lie about what someone is saying, and then suddenly victimize yourself and accuse them of personal attacks when you call out their lie, then again the whole situation is bizarre in general. | |||
| P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time. | |||
| P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while {{u|Bgsu98}} has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (). --] (]) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Overall, I suspect nationalistic motivations are getting in the way of easy access to relevant content for Misplaced Pages readers, which is what it should be the priority, not pretending countries are crime free. This behaviour over a link I think is a sign of a ] approach to editing the article, not to mention interacting with others during content disputes. I have included the more notable diffs but I think the full discussion(s) should be read for a full view of the gymnastics being performed to keep the link off the article. --] (]) 21:00, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :This should go as ] and that is why I am countering with report against Tylerburden who obviously has intentions to clear away people with other opinions, first things first I am entitled to cast my vote on RfC without getting insulted and attacked, which Tylerburden did, second TylerBurden first posted crime in Serbia on see also section, then started a RfC trying to push their agenda, I have clearly stated that there is a balancing problem since we do not have this on other articles, and opposed my vote, editor then continued noting that I am lying and "defending" Serbian image, which I find ridiculous. Overall I have right to cast my vote on talk page if RfC is opened without getting insulted or casted ] against me. Thank you.] (]) 21:22, 06 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @] or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @] who is nominating based on community consensus. ] ] 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === User TylerBurden personal attacks === | |||
| ::I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] has started a RfC on ] talk page ], which I respond with oppose, since then editor obviously has some issues with my objection, which I clearly stated why I am against it, after which they started to attack me, calling me a liar few times ] and that I am falsely victimise myself ], I have repeated several times that my vote is because of balancing issues, since we do not have this on other countries i.e ] but editor has some opinion that I am "protecting" image of Serbia ] or that I have a language barrier. I believe that this includes several ] issues, since I am entitled to add my vote however I choose without being attacked so I would like that someone addressed this. Thank you. ] (]) 21:23, 06 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::"''However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules.''"<br />— They don't meet ], but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet ]. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require ], so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.<br />(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --] (]) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{u|Theonewithreason}}, let the RfC continue. Let others comment. {{u|TylerBurden}}, if you don't mind me saying, this is not so egregious as to warrant an ANI visit. Your issue is in a standard ] space. | |||
| : This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. ] ] 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I would suggest to both of you to take it easy, let the RfC continue. Discussing about why crime (or a link thereof) should or should not be included in a country's Misplaced Pages page, is an editorial decision, not administrative. Don't use terms like lying, tendentious, nationalistic, unless you mean to evoke a negative response. There are alternative terms that can be used diplomatically to convey the same meaning. But you know better Tyler. Come back, any of you, if the issue escalates to the level of ANI. Thanks, ] 08:29, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :: I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates ], otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no ] research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".<br />Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping {{u|BeanieFan11}} and {{u|Doczilla}}. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --] (]) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] I don't make accusations lightly much less reports, it is not so much the content dispute itself that is the issue but Theonewithreason's attempts to misrepresent the situation and accuse me of "gaming the system". Those are both behavioural issues, and then playing victim and complaining about personal attacks when that behavour is called out is problematic also, especially on an article like ] that is under contentious topics. Note how TOWR in response to this report simply continues the same behaviour, not actually addressing their misrepresentation of my suggestion and instead doubling down on their "victim of personal attacks" approach. If they had apologized when they made false claims about my suggestion, this escalation wouldn't have been necessary. But it is one thing to make a mistake, it is another to double down, deny it and make more false claims when confronted about it. ] (]) 16:29, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :] claims to be polite, yet wrote : ''"random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom"''. Pinging ] who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time. | |||
| :He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From ]: ''"By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated ] 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"'' | |||
| :I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. ] seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. ] ] 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*C'mon, ], civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*:I apologize, ]; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. ] ] 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*Here's my take, ]. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @] to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @] I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @] is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @] and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @] ] (]) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*::Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while {{u|Bgsu98}} directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)<br />Also, a note to admins: Can it be that {{u|Bgsu98}} finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".<br />And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --] (]) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::@] I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @] pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @], making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @]'s comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. ] (]) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::: I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --] (]) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::: Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::: According to , "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::::@] | |||
| :::*:::::Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people." | |||
| :::*:::::No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion. | |||
| :::*:::::If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep. | |||
| :::*:::::I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon. | |||
| :::*:::::All the best to everyone involved. ] (]) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*:::] wrote the following in his original complaint: ''”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.”'' I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met ], the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. ] ] 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*::::OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --] (]) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...<p>(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.<p>(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's ''exactly'' the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.<p>(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. ] 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --] (]) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::“Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. ] ] 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria ({{tq|What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.}}), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. — | |||
| :] (]) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a ]. ] (]) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ] (]) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Tryptofish casting false aspersions == | |||
| * I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often ''really'' poor; many are simply {{tq|Non-notable figure skater}}, which doesn't say much of anything. ] (]) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{u|Tryptofish}} just published which is so grossly untrue and insulting that I had to immediately bring it here, because it's not like we're going to get anywhere talking to each other. I will not allow someone to say such things about me without even doing even spending the time to pull up any diffs. I have no more to add to this - apart from my membership on SomethingAwful and the fact that I'm an admin here, every other word he said is false. I demand a retraction and apology and whatever other remedies for someone baselessly accusing another editor of "anti-Asian stuff" are warranted. --] (]) 23:10, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. ] ] 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Editing to note his statement below (diff: ) where he links to a diff that, while disgusting, does not remotely involve me. This is now the second gross attack in the last couple of hours he has made on me without a single lick of evidence. I said I won't interact with him, but I will catalog his attacks on me, and I do expect a community response. --] (]) 23:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::And @], you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — ] ] 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Oh Jesus. They're obviously distressed that their friend is in dire straights, and there's a lot of shit being flung. Any chance if you two agree to stop talking to each other for a while we can let this drop for a week, and decide if you think this is worth all this then? ] (]) 23:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:::But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at ]. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --] (]) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm absolutely never interacting with them again. That doesn't change the fact that an editor in good standing has been accused of "anti-Asian stuff" without any evidence. He doesn't get to fling that shit. --] (]) 23:19, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Golbez apparently thinks it was just fine for him to tell me to fuck off, to which I was responding. I stand by what I said. I don't know if Golbez is personally anti-Asian, but he definitely was supportive of single purpose accounts that came here and did stuff like . But that was more than a decade ago. | |||
| :Here's what I honestly think should happen now. Someone should tell '''both''' of us to calm the bleep down. I'm feeling calmer already. --] (]) 23:21, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Are you sure Golbez is behind that harassment (which is genuinely awful and I'm sorry you had to go through that)? It would appear to more likely be related to the sockmaster ]. ] (]) 23:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm not saying that he was behind it. But I watched what was going on at that website, and he was advising them on how not to get blocked here, and he shows negative feelings towards me at, for example, ]. You will find a lot of the spas there (they were multiple people, not all socks, and I even remember one account that said on his user page that he was a high school student in Florida who wanted to go into politics, and we all know the Florida politics about trans people these days, but I digress), and Golbez clearly getting angry at me. I'm not saying that he was being disruptive there (or even that he was wrong on the content, because I was very new to editing and inexperienced), but it shows where the present-day "fuck off" comes from. | |||
| :::But this is all really beside the point. That stuff was a long time ago. What is current is that, in the thread above about Roxy, Golbez has repeatedly directed comments at me that are all in the general tone of "fuck off". I spent numerous comments politely suggesting that we focus on Roxy, not me, and that we lower the temperature. When that didn't work, I posted the comment that led Golbez to make this complaint, really just a taste of his own medicine (he's repeatedly telling other editors in good standing that they are transphobic because they support a topic ban instead of a site ban). As I said, what should happen now is for everyone, including me, to calm down. And I, personally, have calmed down. --] (]) 23:48, 6 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@], in light of your comment and @]'s comments below, are you willing to either (1) strike/redact the comment or (2) agree with an IBAN between you and Golbez? --<span style="font-family:Georgia">''']'''</span> 14:19, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::multi-{{ec}} Let me reply this way. The correct way to handle the comment is not to strike/redact it, but to provide specific diffs, because they will back up what I said (not what some people choose to present as what I said, but what I actually said). That would require finding some links from ] that may not even be accessible anymore, and finding a large number of diffs from here, that are over a decade old. As I see it, that would just raise the temperature further, and would actually be counterproductive. But there were a large number of single purpose accounts and IPs (including those who harassed me), who did things like change "Hillary Clinton" to "Hirally Crinton" and do a variety of disruptive things over the Japanese comic book images, and that was motivated unambiguously by anti-Asian bigotry. I've never said that Golbez made those edits, but I've shown that he got angry at me over the issue, and I can tell you that he was posting at Something Awful to tell the trolls how not to get blocked, and after the dispute was over, posted there to say that he looked back on the dispute with me as something that was very bad and that he continued to resent, as opposed to posting regret over what the other people from Something Awful had done. Those are facts, not a conspiracy theory. | |||
| :::::It's also a fact that I have gone for well over a decade without ever interacting with Golbez, here or elsewhere. If we're thinking about IBANS, I've already been doing it voluntarily. (And ''until now'', Golbez never confronted me.) I commented in the Roxy discussion here: . It was nothing about Golbez, and it was an appropriate and civil contribution. Golbez then attacked me, calling me "broseph" and "mate": . Compare his tone with mine. I also commented that another editor would have done better not to have told Roxy to "fuck off": . Notice how I was working to deescalate the discussion. Golbez again responded to me, and '''very''' falsely accuses me of not having tried to advise Roxy to do better: . I did not respond in kind, but instead tried to make the case for focusing on Roxy and not on me, and for deescalating: . There's a clear pattern here: I was never looking to re-raise my long-ago conflict with Golbez, while Golbez was taking every opportunity to directly confront me. Then, I made another comment that I also think was constructive: , although I would subsequently explain that the last sentence needed clarification. Golbez replied "Fuck off": . I've never seen anyone suggest that he strike or redact ''that''. Only then did I post the comment that Golbez objects to here, and if you look at what I actually said, I said that it was only because my earlier attempts to deescalate were not working, and that it wasn't me who wanted to get into this. | |||
| :::::Golbez says in this thread that he intends to stay away from me, and I believe him. I've said that I will stay away from him, and always have, except for when he ''directly'' confronted me first. I really think the best thing here is just to deescalate. --] (]) 16:54, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::So, really just trying to lower the temperature here. Taking a step back, I think you're right that the right way to substantiate that kind of allegation would be to {{tq|provide specific diffs}}. But you're also saying that you're not going to provide those diffs, because some may be lost and, more generally, because doing so would {{tq|raise the temperature further}}—I give you a lot of credit for being able to consider that latter consideration (I know I sometimes forget to!). So, regardless of whether the accusation is true or not, wouldn't the proper thing be to strike it? (You could leave a note saying that the remark was "off topic" or "not worth going into".) ''Wouldn't that be the proper deescalation?'' Because, as it stands, you seem to simultaneously be saying the comment isn't supported but that you don't plan to support it or strike it, and I can't imagine that's what you mean. | |||
| ::::::As to the IBAN, Gomez is requesting it, and you're saying that you already essentially abide by an IBAN. ... So is there any harm to agreeing to it? (Again, as a means of deescalation.) Seems like an easy thing.--<span style="font-family:Georgia">''']'''</span> 17:27, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::So you're not saying he was behind it, but then immediately after you allude that he was behind it with some very loose circumstantial evidence. I will echo what everyone else has said: now that you've calmed down either substantiate this little conspiracy theory of yours with real evidence or strike and apologize. ] (]) 16:47, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I found many of Golbez's comments in the above thread to be rude and confrontational (see ], ], ], and ], to name a few); however, Tryptofish's rant about how Golbez supposedly mistreated him over ten years ago is both (a) presented without any evidence and (b) entirely unrelated to the discussion being had. The diff Tryptofish links above is undoubtedly a gross personal attack, but I'm not convinced Golbez is responsible for it. Further, I don't follow the chain of logic between "Golbez was an administrator in 2009 and was active on Something Awful" and "Golbez supported {{tq|his anti-Asian bros}} in making anti-Asian edits and incited them to send me personal attacks". I'd suggest a two way IBAN between these two users at a bare minimum, and further, Tryptofish needs to either finds diffs to support the claims he's making or strike his comments and apologize. '''〜''' <span style="font-family:Big Caslon;border-radius:9em;padding:0 7px;background:#437a4b">]</span> ] 14:16, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree they were rude and confrontational. I apparently get violently angry when dealing with anti-trans issues. One of the many things that will come up in therapy next week. But none of it was the kind of gross, calculated personal attack that Tryptofish has apparently been sitting on for a decade. --] (]) 14:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Potential company editing? == | |||
| This was archived without resolution. The comments are still present and there have been no sanctions. I have been an administrator in good standing here long enough that my account can vote, and this is the first time anyone has ever publicly accused me of racism, and there needs to be a community response. At the very least, I want a IBAN between myself and Tryptofish and, should he not do it immediately, I want him blocked until the statements are recanted. --] (]) 13:27, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Closing by OP request. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :I mean, the lightweight "someone removes the personal attacks" works too, but I'm not going to as I'm involved. But I think this goes beyond simple personal attacking. They are lying about me. That's not an attack. That impacts me with others. And I will not let this go unchallenged. --] (]) 13:30, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|Bouchra Filali}} | |||
| ::You could try being the administrator in the discussion and stop needlessly getting into fights and increasing the temperature of fraught discussions. Neither of you are going to gain anything by continuing it, and neither of you look good in the aforementioned discussion. ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 14:24, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{articlelinks|Djellaba}} | |||
| :::::David, I agree with you, and readily acknowledge that I don't look good in that exchange. That's a fair criticism, and I accept it. And I'm done with this, except if anyone has questions they want to ask me. I have no interest in continuing any interactions with Golbez. --] (]) 17:07, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| The user ] uploaded ] to the page ]. They share a name with a fashion company and seem to have replaced the original image on the article with a product from their company (see revision 1268097124]). I reverted their edit and warned them, but due to my concern, and following advice from an administrator on the wikimedia community discord, I am reporting this here as well. I have also asked for advice on what to do with the commons file, and will be filing any necessary reports there. ] 04:49, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Noted for future discussions. But for this case, I'm not dropping it. This was a disgusting attack and I want a community resolution. If the community decides not to do anything, that's fine, good to know where we stand. --] (]) 14:32, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :They have only made one edit on this project which was adding an image to an article, it looks like they uploaded the image on the Commons. Have you tried talking about your issues with them on their Commons user talk page, ]? This doesn't seem like it's a problem for the English Misplaced Pages. We don't even know if they'll be back to make a second edit. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Fuchs has a pretty kind way of saying it's time to drop the ], and I really would suggest taking that advice. I have to agree with Askarion that you are really coming across as the one ]/] people. If you want a community resolution that badly, ] is an option considering Tryptofish has indicated they're trying to walk away, while you are clearly not. | |||
| ::I asked the commons folks on discord and it seems that, since they uploaded an image that they own, all is well. I have to admit that I was a little hasty here, I've never used this noticeboard before. Feel free to close this if you feel there is nothing more to discuss, I'll monitor the user in question. ] 06:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It's been laid out that there was some bad blood between you two way back, but regardless of who was right/wrong back then, it's pretty clear Tryptofish finally had enough hounding from you in this revival of the interaction. Not great when they don't provide diffs (and offsite stuff is tricky), but you are the one pursuing Tryptofish primarily and pressing buttons when I look at your comments that led to the response. This filing really comes across as a ] mentality gotcha attempt even if you have your blinders on and don't personally see it. That's why multiple editors are cautioning you to step back from the precipice. ] (]) 16:19, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The cool thing about being me is I know ] has nothing to hit. Please, go through all ~70,000 edits and cherry pick a few to get me kicked off, if you so desire, like Tryptofish is attempting. ''This '''is''' me dropping the stick.'' I am doing it in the only way I can think of - by getting the community involved rather than doing the needful myself. But walking away after someone has, in the most public forum we have here, accused me of racism, is simply not going to happen. Also, please reconsider the notion that accusing someone of blatant racism without a bit of evidence is considered a valid response to being a jerk, sounds like the exact same justification people were trying to give for Roxy - "They only said a transphobic thing when they were called out on other things!" No, that's not how that works. You don't get a say-vile-thing-for-free card when pissed at someone. --] (]) 16:32, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{tq|You don't get a say-vile-thing-for-free card when pissed at someone.}} You don't seem to apply that to your own behavior though since you basically admit to using your anger to justify your behavior issues on your end that multiple editors are cautioning you about. Read ]. When you pester someone to the point of frustration and then run to ANI to try to get them sanctioned, that's very clear ] behavior to disrupt the encyclopedia. Regardless of the validity of what Tryptofish said, you do not get to distract from your own behavior that instigated those comments. Had you not been pressing buttons so much (which is putting it kindly), you would not be a major source of the disruption in the recent interactions. At least based on current statements and disengaging, there is nothing to currently protect the encyclopedia from when it comes to Tryptofish in this interaction. There is when it comes to your current trajectory though. You need to take these warnings about your behavior in pursuit of battleground mentality seriously. | |||
| ::::::Editors who don't need sanctions knock off and disengage from battleground behavior when cautioned about it rather than doubling down. I see one editor that has done that, and it's not you. If you require sanctions to keep yourself from pursuing Tryptofish, that can be done, but a grown adult and admin should be capable of doing that themselves. ] (]) 17:18, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::], you yourself need to tone down the rhetoric by several notches. It's too much and it doesn't help. ] 17:55, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You think telling someone to fuck off is the same as them accusing me of racism? Wow. --] (]) 18:12, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thank you, David. Watching what is going on in the Roxy the dog thread has brought me pretty close to casting some aspersions myself, which is why I've stayed out of it (no comment on the merits of the actual issue). But on the sideshow, there have been quite a few participants in the threads and talk page discussions (and I don't mean Trypto) who have been ] they needed to drop long ago. And one of them hasn't even after being asked. {{pb}} Are there any human beings left with hearts and souls at ANI? It is quite obvious from Roxy's talk page that they have been quite ill. Regardless of where you stand on Roxy the dog, medical content looks to be losing one of the few medical editors who watchlisted and tackled quite a few topics in the pseudoscience area, and as I know (and Trypto probably knows), it is highly unlikely that anyone else will pick up those topics. Can those folks wielding sticks in here back off and let people have some feelings about unpleasant matters, consequences, et al without adding heat to create escalating sideshows? ] (]) 18:16, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::After giving Roxy a half dozen chances to come back from this and them still refusing, I put the stick down. I agree, absolutely later than I should have, but w/e, this is where we are. However, that is a separate issue from what we're dealing with right now. Also, I don't recall illness being a justification for hate, but what do I know, a lot of people here seem to think telling someone to fuck off allows them to lie about you, so. Where's RickK when we need him? --] (]) 18:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| If I remember correctly the community has repeatedly decided "fuck off" on its own is not sanctionable. But any other editor has the right to feel insulted. Recently I physically felt unwell in an ArbCom case by statement of an administrator that later turned out to be satire. However I support Askarion's observation as well, due to innocent before proven guilty. The parties should apologize to each other and I'll support interaction ban only when they failed to do so. | |||
| (also, very few pepole are , such as the Ustaše and Hirohito, but people just love to trigger Godwin's law using Stalin, Mao, Trump, etc. I've seen a prolific editor do so on his userpage. And now TERF) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small> | |||
| :Not sure why you're bringing that diff up, as it's neither by Tryptofish or by me to him. Seems completely irrelevant to this section, as is your analysis of it. --] (]) 16:25, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::The diff is from Askarion's comment. Anything "relevant to this section" is alreday analysed well by them. ] (]) 16:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{ping|ibicdlcod}} Please ]. Your current indentation makes it look like you are replying to yourself when you are presumably responding to {{noping|Golbez}}. Cheers, ''']'''-''<small>(])</small>'' 17:56, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{Done}}, thank you. ] (]) 18:00, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *For what it's worth, I've redacted Tryptofish's comment; we can't make accusations like that without evidence, and I agree that it is not fair to expect Golbez to just accept this kind of comment as a response to his "fuck off" comment. But IMHO this is enough, and I don't plan to enact or support further sanctions. Others may disagree. It would be fantastic if everyone took a couple of steps back. --] (]) 17:14, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:I'd second this!--<span style="font-family:Georgia">''']'''</span> 17:51, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *I tend to agree with their complaint, but wonder how can someone who is so easily triggered, and who immediately jumps to foul language be an administrator? ] (]) 17:59, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Easily triggered? Easily triggered. I'm easily triggered when accused of racism. Wow. I'd give you the same remark but that would apparently allow you to accuse me of some atrocity without any evidence too, it seems. --] (]) 18:15, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:Also, unless you have some evidence that I've abused my administrator tools, I believe the answer to your question is "because I've been good at it for 18 years." --] (]) 18:17, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == 96.230.191.203’s edits today. == | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | status = | |||
| | result = {{nac}} {{u|96.230.191.203}} was blocked for 31 hours by Caknuck for disruptive editing. In the future, reports of obvious vandalism should be directed to ]. ] (]) 13:24, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| {{u|96.230.191.203}} Seems to be a troll account, with changing photos on election pages (US Elections). | |||
| He has done it to 1992, 1796, 1792, 1964, and 1968. And possibly more.<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small> | |||
| :@] Just please turn this to ] and don't forget to sign your post. ] 02:57, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | {{abot}} | ||
| == User:Smm380 and logged out editing == | |||
| == Non Partisan Election Maps Dispute == | |||
| *{{userlinks|Smm380}} | |||
| Not quite sure how this works but I've been having an issue with the user {{U|AveryTheComrade}}. He continues to post partisan election data for a non partisan election on ]. I've tried to start a conversation about it on the talk page but he ignores it and just reverts my edits when I change the color scheme back to nonpartisan. I've looked at other articles on the non partisan election page and they have similar color schemes like ] and ]. I don't know why he insists on using partisan data for a non partisan election but it goes against the standards used here in the past. Also no notable news networks have used the partisan democratic and republican colors for this race.<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small> | |||
| *{{IPlinks|195.238.112.0/20}} | |||
| :This is probably not the correct avenue for such content disputes, see header above. Also, please use "they" when referring to the user in question. Thanks. —]<sup>(] || ])</sup> 06:38, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| I have this editor twice about logged out editing because they are evidently editing the article ] both logged in and as an IP. This makes tracking their edits more difficult since they have made hundreds altogether in recent months (and they are only focused on this specific article). The IP edits seem to come from ] (at least most of them) and they are often made shortly before/after Smm380 decides to log back in. See for example edit by Smm380 and edit by the IP a few minutes later regarding the same section. This is now especially a problem because they are deciding to make as an IP. | |||
| *{{u|AllSportsfan16}}, not to worry, continue discussions on the talk page of the article and go by consensus. {{U|AveryTheComrade}} how have you been doing? Give some leeway and do join in the comments on the article talk page which are tending to be opposite to your edits. Let me know if I can help in anyway. Just to let you both know something that you already may have known (3RR and stuff). Rest, come back if this explodes. ] 08:39, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| In general, they have not listened to prior warnings. I have given them multiple warnings about adding unsourced text, but they are still continuing to unsourced text without including citations first. But they have not responded to any of my warnings or explained why they are still doing this. ] (]) 09:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Cahnc == | |||
| :I noticed the concerns raised regarding edits made both from my account and an IP address, and I’d like to clarify that this was neither intentional nor malicious. I simply forgot to log into my account while making those edits. | |||
| *{{userlinks|Cahnc}} | |||
| :I apologize if this caused any confusion. My sole intention was to improve content related to Ukrainian history, a topic I am deeply passionate about. | |||
| New user with some good faith contributions that seems suddenly intensely focused on removing sourced content regarding the Catholic identity of largely Italian persons. After being warned and notified of several policies that their editing was running up against, the editor proceeded to continue reverting, violating the 3RR rule at least , including after being notified of the rule. Request action to catch their attention, as they have responded to warnings by blanking their talk page and carrying on with their ]. Actions may be those of a sock, considering the relative of editor with some other policies. ~ ] (]) 06:07, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Regarding the delayed response to your messages, I sincerely apologize. I hadn’t noticed the notifications until recently, as I was unfamiliar with how Misplaced Pages’s messaging system works. Now that I understand it better, I’ll ensure to respond more promptly in the future. | |||
| :User:Pbritti seems suddenly intensely focused on undoing my edits. This included repeatedly restoring extremely poor English like "He started also a collaboration...". They are clearly not really looking at what they are reverting. The fact that the majority of Italians are Catholics is not remarkable, and there are very few articles about Italians, or anyone else, where their religion needs to be stated. I have not made more than three reverts at any article. ] (]) 06:16, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I truly appreciate the valuable work you do to maintain the quality and reliability of Misplaced Pages. I will make sure to contribute responsibly and stay logged in during my future edits. ] (]) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::You are engaged in edit-warring, ignoring requests to adhere to policy regarding both sourced content and MOS (the latter referring to ]). If believe Italians should, as a blanket rule, not have their Catholic identity mentioned despite its presence in sourcing, then seek consensus after your ] edits are reverted. Again, clearly an editor who isn't new. ~ ] (]) 06:21, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::What is the policy regarding sourced content that I am not adhering to? And why have you claimed that I broke a rule which I have at no point broken? ] (]) 06:27, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The ] guideline is generally understood as giving through to discussion after someone objects (see ]). I'm using 3RR as shorthand but more appropriately I should have linked ], as that was the behavior you were undertaking despite my repeated efforts to encourage you to discuss, both in edit summaries and on your talk page (which you repeatedly blanked). ~ ] (]) 06:34, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You clearly wanted to have an edit war; you were the one who started indiscriminately reverting my edits. And now when I ask for what policy you think I am not adhering to, you link to a page which says '''This process is not mandated by Misplaced Pages policy'''. The changes I have made were basic common sense. I did not expect anyone to attack me for them as you have done. ] (]) 06:39, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}}BRD is an explanatory essay on paragraph three of BOLD's lead. I am not attacking you, though I do suspect you of policy-violating behavior despite apparently knowing more than the average new editor about policy. ~ ] (]) 06:43, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{u|Pbritti}}, some of the edits of Cahnc are good. Can you please list the exact diffs you have problems with? ] 08:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{re|Lourdes}} several are linked in my first post but additionally: , , and . There are other articles and on every article it was multiple reversions but the basic gist is that Cahnc deleted referenced statements about people's religious identity (and a bolded alternative name) then refused to engage even when policy was cited. ~ ] (]) 15:15, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Another not here IP == | |||
| == ]'s understanding of Misplaced Pages Policies. == | |||
| {{archive top|status=None|result=Request withdrawn, ] 14:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
| The situation and timeline of events from my point of view is as follows: | |||
| * User ] reports IP ] at AIV (]) for "vandalism after final warning" | |||
| * I see the report and look at the page supposedly being vandalised to see if there is any missed vandalism or long-term damage in recent edits (]) | |||
| * I notice that the phrase "He has also business activities." (]) | |||
| * I notice that the phrase was added by ] in response to the first of ]'s edits. (]) | |||
| * I see that the page in the state it was did not support the statement and assume it's just a mistake and remove it with an explanation in the summary. (]) | |||
| * User ] reverts my edit(]), warns me for unconstructive editing(]) and reports me to AIV for "account is evidently a spambot or a compromised account. It's blocked user who made edits using the IP number 37.39.172.228."(]) | |||
| * I respond to the warning in my talk page which spawns this discussion(]) which I will attempt to summarize: | |||
| :* I ask why they think it's unconstructive, point out the changed appeared to be unsourced.(]) | |||
| :* They say it is sourced, asks me why I'm trying to distort the page.(]) | |||
| :* I explain my thought process, point out the sentence exists because of the IP they reported for vandalizing the page, that nothing in the page says they were currently a businessman.(]) | |||
| :* I ask them that if the change "He has also business activities." was supported, then wouldn't them reverting the IP repeatedly be edit warring?(]) | |||
| :* They answer this: (]) *wasn't able to summarize, in that they mention that I shouldn't do changes without sources. | |||
| :* I point out that that's exactly what their edit was, unsourced. Ask them to not frivously warn and report me as a sock(]) | |||
| :* They say: "your edits should be backed by sources. My report was due to your unsourced edit".(]) | |||
| :* I quote them a part of the ] page, say my removal of their unsourced content was in policy, clarify I only made 1 edit.(]) | |||
| :* They answer: "Then why did not you add a source or sources to correct the incorrect statements in the page as I did? It's my final statement."(]) | |||
| :* I make this report. | |||
| {{User|2601:18C:8183:D410:1D8C:39C9:DCEE:1166}} is altering another users posts to insert political commentary ] as well as making PA's, with a clear statement they do not intend to stop ], and edit warring over it as well. ] (]) 14:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Summary/Description: | |||
| Now past 3rr reinsertion of their alteration of another users post. So its now vandalism. ] (]) 14:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| It appears that ] thinks their behaviour with ](which might have initially involved edit warring, which the IP is now blocked for), their attitude in accusing me of being a sock(even though I did the opposite of the IP) and warning me for unconstructive behaviour when my edit was unquestionably in policy and their edit was unquestionably against policy, is behaviour that is acceptable. | |||
| They are apparently unrepentant, and think that I'm the one who had to provide sources for my removal of their unsourced content. Even though they have now added a source, and have now done in between their other ] to AIV ]. | |||
| I would appreciate if at the very least this ANI could end with making it very clear to ] that they are doing things in a way that goes very much against Misplaced Pages Policies. | |||
| I have left notices to the following users: | |||
| * ] as the user who's behaviour I'm pointing out. | |||
| * ] as the IP who ] reverted. | |||
| * ] as the admin who blocked ] for edit warring. | |||
| * ] as an IP who commented on both my talk page and the AIV report against me, but was never addressed. | |||
| – ] (]) 09:12, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *{{u|Egeymi}} is okay. Don't get too worked up about such interactions. Sometimes, just some time after a previous IP has been blocked, when an IP lands up on an unknown page and makes similar changes as the blocked IP, it is ] to assume what Egeymi did. Focus on content sourcing. Small editing and interaction mistakes do happen by editors from time to time. You need to sort them out at the talk page of the articles (or go via ]) and not at ANI. Thank you. ] 10:14, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:To clarify, I do not have anything against their content changes (they have now sourced them), I just have an issue with how they treated me, I feel that that would be against the purpose of talk pages and dispute resolution. But if them mistaking me for a sock for doing the exact opposite of the other IP (therefore not DUCK) and repeatedly accusing me of things I didn't do and claiming I need sources to remove unsourced BLP content, is alright at the level that it happened, not even enough to get an affirmation that his claim was incorrect, then I think it best if I just forget this completely and not pursue it at all anywhere else. – ] (]) 10:35, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *::Hi. Behaviourally, socks tend to do what you did -- the opposite of the master -- to push the message that they are not socks. Socks tend to follow the editors they wish to troll, as you did, find out connecting links through desks like AIV, as you did, and then justify that their IP edits from their address started on the same day of the other IP getting blocked, and they edited the same line of an obscure article and edit-warred with the same editor, all coincidentally. Look, shit happens. You're not a sock. She acted to protect the project. She didn't repeat her accusation. You understand policies (and edit filters). So unless you want some more investigation on both of you (which I would suggest against), let's move on my friend. ] 10:44, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Personally, I think anyone who would add the text "He has also business activities" to an article is ] to edit. The spurious AIV report, claiming "account is evidently a spambot or a compromised account. It's blocked user who made edits using the IP number 37.39.172.228", is absolutely outrageous. Given that a) there was nothing remotely resembling spam from the IP address, b) an IP address by definition is not and could never be a compromised account, and c) there was no reason to think that the IPv6 had anything to do with the IPv4, I can only conclude that this was a purely malicious attempt to get the IP blocked, and thereby gain the upper hand in a content dispute. I am absolutely appalled by that. I have absolutely no connection with or prior knowledge of the account, the IP addresses, or the articles concerned here, but I was so outraged by this that I felt I had to comment. ] (]) 10:51, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Well, since it was wrong of me to close this noticeboard, I'll just leave a blank statement here that while I disagree with the assessment that I followed Egeymi (being reported as a sock for 1 revert, before the other IP was blocked) or "found connecting links" (what?) - I am willing to believe the word of an admin who has edited for many years more than my 1~1.5 years (not total) of mostly vandalism patrol, on this not being something worth pursuing (in that this won't improve anything, likely the opposite). | |||
| ::::Also just to address 131.'s comment, there is a 0% chance that this was "a purely malicious attempt to get the IP blocked", that goes beyond ] to the realm of nonsense. My problem was solely with how I was treated and with the suggestion that my removal of an unsourced addition to a BLP was wrong because I didn't provide a source in my removal (seemingly repeated even in the very last interaction in my talk page). I also do not have a problem with any of that if nothing good will come of this, as I do not think it will ever happen again. | |||
| ::::I withdraw this noticeboard. (if that is allowed) | |||
| ::::– ] (]) 14:24, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{archive bottom}} | |||
| == Davey2010 editing contrary to COSMETICBOT == | |||
| {{Userlinks|Davey2010}} has in the last month taken to using ] to perform page clean-up, but without adhering to the policy at ] regarding edits that only affect the appearance of wikitext. Of their 56-odd edits made using the tool, I only found four that made reasonable changes to the rendered output of articles. I have included the full list of non-compliant diffs below, but three that illustrate the issue most clearly are these three (, , and ) that only remove a single trailing space each. | |||
| When I raised this at Davey2010's talk page, they {{tq|Then take your concerns up with the script maintainer/creator. That being said I see no issue with removing unnecessary whitespace from a couple of infoboxes}}, then it ({{tq|Or I will continue as I see fit and you can go to the script creator and get them to change the script}}), and immediately thereafter as "resolved". | |||
| {{collapse top|title=Diffs}} | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ford_Ranger_(international)&diff=prev&oldid=1154194078 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Peugeot_405&diff=prev&oldid=1154304632 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Coronation_of_Charles_III_and_Camilla&diff=prev&oldid=1154313983 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Renault_18&diff=prev&oldid=1154500555 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Renault_21&diff=prev&oldid=1154500737 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Loreen&diff=prev&oldid=1154752566 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Loreen&diff=prev&oldid=1154924155 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Airport_bus&diff=prev&oldid=1155740446 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=MSC_Preziosa&diff=prev&oldid=1155982354 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Network_SouthEast&diff=prev&oldid=1156174794 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Kaya_Scodelario&diff=prev&oldid=1156197086 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Turkish_Airlines&diff=prev&oldid=1156201114 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Istanbul_Airport&diff=prev&oldid=1156201490 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Lauren_Brant&diff=prev&oldid=1156204126 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Dena_Kaplan&diff=prev&oldid=1156205434 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Suzuki_Cultus&diff=prev&oldid=1156749483 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=DB_Cargo_UK&diff=prev&oldid=1156775452 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Dennis_Dart&diff=prev&oldid=1156973920 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Traffic_light&diff=prev&oldid=1156974654 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Emily_Atack&diff=prev&oldid=1157014193 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Monica_Bellucci&diff=prev&oldid=1157023620 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Kaia_Gerber&diff=prev&oldid=1157112144 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ford_Ranger_(T6)&diff=prev&oldid=1157167269 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Zoe_Kazan&diff=prev&oldid=1157180735 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ford_Transit_Courier&diff=prev&oldid=1157285858 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Abellio_London&diff=prev&oldid=1157697225 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Go-Ahead_London&diff=prev&oldid=1157697477 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Blue_Triangle&diff=prev&oldid=1157697618 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=London_Central&diff=prev&oldid=1157697735 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hotel_Hoppa&diff=prev&oldid=1157698603 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Uno_(bus_company)&diff=prev&oldid=1157704050 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Get_Busy&diff=prev&oldid=1157847612 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Dodge_Viper&diff=prev&oldid=1158009036 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=New_Routemaster&diff=prev&oldid=1158010919 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=British_Rail_Class_158&diff=prev&oldid=1158084705 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=St_Pancras_railway_station&diff=prev&oldid=1158174175 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=British_Rail_Class_155&diff=prev&oldid=1158213967 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Articulated_buses_in_the_United_Kingdom&diff=prev&oldid=1158221419 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Plaxton&diff=prev&oldid=1158507395 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Britain%27s_Got_Talent_(series_16)&diff=prev&oldid=1158564168 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wright_Endurance&diff=prev&oldid=1158578344 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Britain%27s_Got_Talent_(series_16)&diff=prev&oldid=1158661007 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Dennis_Dart&diff=prev&oldid=1158688140 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Alexander_Dennis_Enviro350H&diff=prev&oldid=1158733891 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ford_Escort_(Europe)&diff=prev&oldid=1158822691 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=First_Potteries&diff=prev&oldid=1158824103 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=HMS_Garnet&diff=prev&oldid=1158859466 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=HMS_Rodney_(29)&diff=prev&oldid=1158859744 | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Metal_Industries,_Limited&diff=prev&oldid=1158860355 | |||
| {{cob}} | |||
| I note that some of these diffs do include changes like the removal of underscores in the targets of piped links, and the replacement of HTML syntax for en- and em-dashes with Unicode characters, but they are all alike in making no difference to the rendered output and not including any substantive changes. I ask that Davey2010 be formally reminded of the community's expectations regarding purely-cosmetic edits, and to not be so dismissive when other editors raise policy concerns. Thanks. <span style="border:1px solid midnightblue; padding:0 2px">]</span> ] 12:35, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Again I personally don't see a problem with removing whitespace from infoboxes and texts in the article and removing underscores from images (prior to the tool I would manually remove underscores anyway). | |||
| :I appreciate it makes 0 difference to the output however internally it tidies it up. That being said if this is such a problem then XAM should ask the tool maintainer/creator to remove the offending features.... I'm just doing what the tool allows me to do. Pointless thread imho. –]<sup>]</sup> 13:33, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::] has a bold warning at the top: {{tq|'''Warning: You take full responsibility for any action you perform''' using AutoEd.}} And the 2d para in its intro says {{tq|AutoEd should not be used to make edits that only remove whitespace, or that make no change in the actual appearance of the article.}} (And also links to ].) ] ] 14:08, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] You're missing the point - If I'm not supposed to make such edits with this script then why does the script ''do'' such edits ?, Should it not be modified so whitespace is not touched ? or failing that shouldn't this script be deprecated ?, | |||
| :::I'm not trying to be combative or obtuse but it's not a me problem - It's a script problem? (I acknowledge I'm responsible for the edits I make but respectfully I can't as far as I'm aware control what edits the script makes, Thanks, –]<sup>]</sup> 16:18, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@], I think the key is in the wording on ], where it says '''only'''. Removing whitespace and such as part of making substantive edits (that change the actual appearance of the article) are okay, but using the script to '''only''' perform cosmetic edits isn't. ] ] 16:28, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@], Honestly, the further I delve in to this the less sense it makes - Why's it okay to remove whitespace from the infobox and bodys of text providing I'm making substantial edits with it ? .... That to me is just being very deceptive or intentionally finding a loophole in order to make those cosmetic changes ?, Doesn't make much sense to me?, | |||
| :::::Anyway whilst I'm not happy about it I'll mess around and will have the whitespace option removed. I will however still continue with the underscore replacements because I've been doing that since I've been here and no one has ever said otherwise but I will cease making whitespace and the "-" changes, Thanks, –]<sup>]</sup> 17:14, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Why? So you don't clutter everybody's watchlists with pointless edits and waste many other editors' time checking that what you did was pointless rather than harmful. —] (]) 18:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == ] at ] == | |||
| {{Userlinks|Triantares}} | |||
| {{Pagelinks|Elive}} | |||
| {{bcc|Aoidh}}], ], ], and ] for ], which barely surved ], by withdrawal. I have attempted to be as helpful as I can be, but am not getting through, and they are only making it more personal. I think a block from at least ] is fitting. | |||
| *] that is consistent with a cited review summarized in body. | |||
| *], if mediocre compared to some. | |||
| *] to article. (reverted) | |||
| *] | |||
| -- ] (]) 13:07, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == ] at ] == | |||
| ] repeatedly inserting improperly uploaded image to ] page, despite having received several warnings. Diffs: . ] (]) 13:24, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * Image deleted, author warned. ] 14:21, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == ] and ] by 10bucchr == | |||
| I believe by {{u|10bucchr}} constitutes a ] and possible ]. I'd like an administrator to review and take appropriate action. ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 16:07, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Why is it a legal threat, I made no threat at all? | |||
| :In what way is it an outing? The vandal (RabbitWolf) admitted to being Ian Erasmus - see his talk page: "I do have the official charge sheet in my possession. And I do know this case inside and out as I am the one who built this case." He has a major conflict of interest as he was fired by the company and has stated that is in legal proceedings with it. | |||
| :An administrator has already reviewed it and upheld my removal of the vandalism. ] (]) 16:43, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm not sure this amounts to outing, and "warning" is too vague to count as a legal threat. Your comment here, however, really clouds the issue and forces me to act. ], this is not the internet: you can't just throw accusations around. I've already asked you to disclose any conflict of interest you might have, and you failed to do so, and you continued here to make accusations. I will leave it to another admin to decide if you should be sanctioned; for now I find it difficult to see how you are a net positive for Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 16:56, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :And if all this wasn't clear to you: do NOT name people. ] (]) 16:56, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :: {{ec}} I concur with the administrator that RabbitWolf's editing was problematic. But your with the user ({{tq|This is a warning to stop adding the entire charge sheet to the Sasol main page}}) has a distinctly legalistic tone to it. And your identification of a user name with a real world person, where the user themself has not made such an admission, is most certainly ]. ]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 16:59, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Apologies x2 to @] and @], I didn't get to stating my conflict fast enough. I used to be employed by Sasol but no longer have any connection, but I guess it still counts as conflicting interest. I won't edit that page again. | |||
| :::I again disagree with the legalistic complaint but do apologize about the naming - I realize not knowing the rules is no excuse. Although my initial (and only) interaction did not identify him - it only associated him? Is that still against the rules? ] (]) 17:06, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Note on behalf of WMF Trust and Safety regarding emergency@ == | |||
| ''All, please excuse the insistent posting. I want to make sure this information reaches most individuals who report emergency situations.'' | |||
| As of June 2023, it has come to our attention that some messages sent to emergency@ wound up in our spam folder. This seems to be a backend issue with our email provider and we are currently reviewing the problem. If you do not receive a response to your message within 1 hour, please send a note to ca{{@}}wikimedia.org. Thank you. Best, ] (]) 16:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Lavalizard101 == | |||
| {{atop|Closing, IP sock is back in it's drawer. ] (]) 16:38, 7 June 2023 (UTC)}} | |||
| This user has, for no apparent reason, started reverting every edit I have made, including some I did months ago. They appear to have taken extreme exception to the fact that today in a handful of articles, I replaced text such as "It is notable for being the host galaxy" with "It is the host galaxy". Their problem with my more concise wording is not clear but they continue to aggressively revert, and have now done so more than three times at numerous articles. Please assist. ] (]) 16:28, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| : You are ]. ] (]) 16:32, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Indeed, the IP also called my revert of their edits vandalism for no reason. I also gave reasons for the reverts upon first making them. ] (]) 16:34, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| As well as this tit for tat report ]. ] (]) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Boulton and Park == | |||
| :IP blocked for edit warring. --] 14:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Does anyone know what is about? It seems there's a content dispute raging, and these edits archive lengthy discussions which have mostly happened in the last ten days - which I don't think is what archives are meant to be for. I would have reverted, but I wondered if this was an admin action for some reason so I brought it here. I'm not involved in the actual dispute and I don't have an opinion. But the dispute doesn't look so heated that it needs suppression. ] (]) 16:48, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Heritage Foundation planning to doxx editors == | |||
| == John_Maynard_Friedman == | |||
| See ]. Various sources are beginning to report on this, see , . It seems they plan to “identify and target Misplaced Pages editors abusing their position by analyzing text patterns, usernames, and technical data through data breach analysis, fingerprinting, HUMINT, and technical targeting,” and “engage curated sock puppet accounts to reveal patterns and provoke reactions, information disclosure,” and “push specific topics to expose more identity-related details.” An IP user on the discussion page says "they intend to add malicious links (sources) that will set cookies, grab your IP, and get tracking going for your device. This has likely already started. Be careful, there are lots of ways to hide where a link goes." ] (]) 17:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| This user is accusing IP editors of being a banned user based solely on the fact they changed things edited by a fairly ] and ] user who has been extremely disruptive as of late. In this case the article is ]. The article was relatively stable until ] there "was no British English" in the article based on an incorrect assumption of theirs. After an IP edited the article NotReallySoroka made a ]y edit changing all of the spelling. JMF seems to be invested in protecting NRS' disruptive edits based on a mutual loathing for the banned editor they are accusing the IPs of being. I believe JMF is abusing ] in their constant reversions which add nothing constructive to the article and reimpose actual errors (such as the word "airplane", which does not exist outside of North American English) based on the specified tagging for editing the article itself. The basis for their accusations of the IP being a WP:DUCK is so broad that ''any'' IP editor who makes a constructive edit to improve an article could be accused of being a sockpuppet. ] (]) 18:19, 7 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I think there's a far more productive discussion going on at ]. ] (]) 17:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::A friendly reminder: It's always a good time to review the strength and age of account passwords, plus consider two-factor verification. The world is constantly changing... ] (]) 17:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Isn't doxing a federal/punishable offense in ten states (more or less), including DC? If they grab the information of or out a minor, that can easily be taken on as a form of harassment and won't end well. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 18:08, 8 January 2025
Noticeboard for reporting incidents to administrators| Noticeboards | |
|---|---|
| Misplaced Pages's centralized discussion, request, and help venues. For a listing of ongoing discussions and current requests, see the dashboard. For a related set of forums which do not function as noticeboards see formal review processes. | |
| General | |
| Articles, content | |
| Page handling | |
| User conduct | |
| Other | |
| Category:Misplaced Pages noticeboards | |
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
- Before posting:
- Consider other means of dispute resolution first
- Read these tips for dealing with incivility
- If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page
- If the issue concerns use of admins tools or other advanced permissions, request an administrative action review
- Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
- Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem
- Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight.
When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.
You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.
Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
Start a new discussion Centralized discussion- Refining the administrator elections process
- Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
- Voluntary RfAs after resignation
- Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
- LLM/chatbot comments in discussions
| Administrators' (archives, search) | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 349 | 350 | 351 | 352 | 353 | 354 | 355 | 356 | 357 | 358 |
| 359 | 360 | 361 | 362 | 363 | 364 | 365 | 366 | 367 | 368 |
| Incidents (archives, search) | |||||||||
| 1156 | 1157 | 1158 | 1159 | 1160 | 1161 | 1162 | 1163 | 1164 | 1165 |
| 1166 | 1167 | 1168 | 1169 | 1170 | 1171 | 1172 | 1173 | 1174 | 1175 |
| Edit-warring/3RR (archives, search) | |||||||||
| 472 | 473 | 474 | 475 | 476 | 477 | 478 | 479 | 480 | 481 |
| 482 | 483 | 484 | 485 | 486 | 487 | 488 | 489 | 490 | 491 |
| Arbitration enforcement (archives) | |||||||||
| 327 | 328 | 329 | 330 | 331 | 332 | 333 | 334 | 335 | 336 |
| 337 | 338 | 339 | 340 | 341 | 342 | 343 | 344 | 345 | 346 |
| Other links | |||||||||
Cross-wiki harassment and transphobia from User:DarwIn
User:DarwIn, a known transphobic editor from pt.wiki, is harassing me here after his actions led me to leave that wiki permanently. He has also harassed me on Wikimedia Commons. I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace. This is severely impacting my mental health. Skyshiftertalk 13:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You don't seem to have notified the other editor. This is mandatory and this section may be closed if you fail to do so. Use {{subst:ANI-notice}}~~~~ on that user's talk page. Additionally, you don't seem to have provided specific diffs demonstrating harassment. Please do so. --Yamla (talk) 13:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- On pt.wiki, DarwIn proposed the deletion of articles I created about transgender topics (Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans), using transphobic arguments, including misgendering and questioning the validity of transgender children. After translating these articles to en.wiki, he is targeting the DYK nomination, again focusing on his personal transphobic beliefs - as it shows, he doesn't even know how DYK works. He insisted multiple times trying to include his transphobic comment on that page and has just edited it again. On Commons, for extra context, DarwIn unilaterally deleted images related to these articles, despite being clearly involved in the dispute.
- Again, I just want to collaborate with trans topics in peace. Skyshiftertalk 13:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --Yamla (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes. However, context is important. This is harassment that began on pt.wiki, has spread to Commons, and is now here. The history has been provided, but, sure, I can provide the diffs instead. He has unilaterally edited the DYK page and put a "disagree", despite this being not how DYK works. This is because he really doesn't know, as he only sporadically edits here and only came back to harass me. His comment is explicitly transphobic and doesn't focus on the article itself at all. After his comment was reverted by me, he insisted saying that I shouldn't call it transphobia, despite it being transphobia. After being reverted again, he reincluded the comment. I asked him to stop harassing me, but he has edited the page again.
- I just don't want to be targeted by that editor here. I've left pt.wiki in great part for that reason. I just want to edit about transgender topics in peace here. Skyshiftertalk 13:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We can't help you with pt.wikipedia.org or with commons, only with en.wikipedia.org. Please provide specific diffs for en.wikipedia.org. --Yamla (talk) 13:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like yet another cross-wiki troll by this user. Already blocked at the Portuguese Wikipédia and Wikimedia Commons, the account is now promoting their POV here, including spreading lies, hideous slurs and baseless accusations against me like "known transphobic", after two of their creations were taken to community evaluation at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for lacking notability. The user is also a known sockpuppeter, with an open case for sockpuppetry at the Portuguese Wikipédia. In any case, I'm not interested in pursuing this case in yet another project apart from the strictly needed, so do as you please. Darwin 13:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. Skyshiftertalk 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which you are well known for abusing whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. Darwin 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And here's explicit transphobia. It's her daughter, no matter how much you hate the idea of trans children existing. The story you've told is also completely distorted. Skyshiftertalk 13:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Questioning a women that declared her 4 year old son as trangender after he refused to play with cars and Marvel puppets and preferred what his mother calls "girl stuff" doesn't fit in any reasonable definition of transphobia, a word which you are well known for abusing whenever anyone criticizes you at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. In any case, I don't think this is the place for this discussion, so this will be my last direct answer to you you'll see in this board. Darwin 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have been blocked on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages for contesting that transphobia was called "valid criticism" on ANI and on Commons for literally nothing. Skyshiftertalk 13:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I simply don't want this editor targeting me with transphobic stuff here after he target me on pt.wiki (and left it permanently in great part for that reason) and Commons. I am considering taking medication because of these events. Skyshiftertalk 13:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I would suggest Darwin review MOS:GENDERID. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. Simonm223 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? Darwin 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn, the bottom line is that you don't get to question that. As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is not the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them any good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. Blue Sonnet (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. Darwin 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're here because this "questioning" appears to be bleeding into transphobic harassment. I would support an indef based on edits like this Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I questioned the mother, not the child. I've no idea why we are discussing this here, anyway. Darwin 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn, the bottom line is that you don't get to question that. As a complete stranger to that child you have no right to do so, plus this is not the place to even enter into that discussion. How does complete strangers on the internet talking about a child's gender do them any good? This isn't the place anyway so please just follow guidelines, which have been put in place for a good reason. Blue Sonnet (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The story told above is completely distorted to fit the transphobic's narrative. Simon223, if you want to get the full story, read Thamirys Nunes' page or read its sources (with the help of a translator if needed). Skyshiftertalk 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. Darwin 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including MOS:GENDERID) - otherwise you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. Darwin 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just so everyone knows, the facts are being quite distorted here. It wasn't really an imposition — her daughter, did not want to play with "boy toys", even when being forced by her mom. That's why the mom said she plays with "girl toys" and everything else. The references on said articles weren't thoroughly read, apparently by everybody here.
- Adding to this too: DarwIn, in some edits to the article in the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, added "quotes" on the word trans and some other parts of the articly, as if was his duty to judge if the girl is trans or not. Anyways, I think what happened in ptwiki stays there.
- And I want to make clear that I'm only stating the things that happened so everyone knows. I do not support blocking him. Eduardo G. 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so. Darwin 16:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Four year olds are generally not considered babies. You really need to drop this - and probably to avoid editing in the WP:GENSEX area.Simonm223 (talk) 16:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would suggest a topic ban is imposed. GiantSnowman 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would support a topic ban from WP:GENSEX. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Topic ban from GENSEX and BLP, broadly construed, is fine for me. GiantSnowman 16:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I do understand this Misplaced Pages rules on BLP. Isn't that not enough for you? Darwin 16:17, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You seem to have missed the part when I very clearly stated there that I retired myself from that DYN debate. Darwin 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given your comments here and at DYK, you clearly do not. GiantSnowman 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given that much of what they've been saying is about living people I think we would need to expand this to at least cover all other BLPs until such a time as they have demonstrated that they actually understand that the BLP policy applies to non-article spaces on wiki as well as articles. Overall this seems more like NOTHERE than something which a topic ban can remedy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @GiantSnowman nice try, but I don't edit on that topic, anyway. Let's calm down and enjoy the Christmas season. Darwin 16:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. Darwin 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You fundementally misunderstand the scope of WP:BLP and the concept of topic area as well. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. Darwin 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it was a collective you. Darwin 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The collective you did not pursue you here either. Only the OP appears to cross over. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it was a collective you. Darwin 16:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think you may be getting different editors confused, I was not a participant at DYN. I did not pursue you to here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Look, I'm at a family gathering and I really have nor time nor patience for this kind of endless debates, specially on culture wars topics. I've already retired from DYN yesterday but you seem to insist on pursuing this kind of Salem witch hunting here, but really, I'll not be anymore part of that. Roger and over, happy new year. Darwin 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You fundementally misunderstand the scope of WP:BLP and the concept of topic area as well. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then get your facts right, as I never edited any biography on that topic here, at least that I can recall. Darwin 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is the opposite of the attitude you need to adopt if you want to remain an editor in good standing. Remeber if you didn't edit on that topic we wouldn't be having this discussion, we're here because of edits you made in that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would support a topic ban from WP:GENSEX. Simonm223 (talk) 16:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I noticed this yesterday but intentionally didn't mention it since I felt there had already been enough nonsense. But since DarwIn is still defending their offensive comments below, I'd note that the child was 4 years old in 2019. It's now 2024 and they've evidentally seen a medical professional. If at any time they express a desire for a different gender identity we will of course respect that whatever her mother says; but at this time BLP full supports respecting a 8-9 year old and not treating her as a baby. Nil Einne (talk) 22:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- None of this is relevant. We follow sources and MOS:GENDERID. There is obviously no Misplaced Pages position on when someone is or is not a "baby" and should have their self-identification reproduced in their biography. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would suggest a topic ban is imposed. GiantSnowman 16:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin - I suggest you drop whatever agenda you have, treat other editors with respect, and comply with our MOS (including MOS:GENDERID) - otherwise you will be blocked. GiantSnowman 15:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Rephrase that as mothers opinions on their 4 year old baby gender expression. Darwin 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to suggest we follow MOS regardless of people's personal opinion of early childhood gender expression. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 I would suggest you to recall we ate talking about a 4 year child whose social gender was chosen by their mother after the child refused to play with what she calls "boy toys", such as toy cars and Marvel puppets. If that's not enough that this kind of gender prejudice was already abhorrent and condemned even in the generation of my babyboomer parents, one of the first things we teached as LGBT activists in the 1990s was that our parents don't own us nor our sexuality or our gender. So please let's refrain from doing that kind of suggestions when what is in question is the gender identity of a 4 year old attributed by their mother. Ok? Darwin 15:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I would suggest Darwin review MOS:GENDERID. If the child uses she/her pronouns we should not be referring to her with he/him pronouns. Simonm223 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- They cannot be trusted. Above they said "I'm retiring myself from this topic" and yet has continued to post. GiantSnowman 16:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I've continued to post where? Darwin 16:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I've already walked away from it yesterday, why you're insisting on that lie? Darwin 16:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? GiantSnowman 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have my own disagreements with that guideline, and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. Darwin 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? Darwin 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn This one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Ad Orientem I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. Darwin 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn Easiest way to defuse this is to post a bolded and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" Darwin 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That is not an appropriate statement, it has your bias/agenda throughout it. Very concerning. GiantSnowman 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, here it goes again: "if in this Misplaced Pages the community accepts the opinions of a mother of a 4 year old on their child gender based on her very biased self declared social constructs about toy cars being for boys and makeup being for girls, that's perfectly fine, even if those are not my own opinions. To each Misplaced Pages community their rules and their stuff. People seem to have become very agitated over something on which I've not the least interest on debating here, specially on this space, so I'm retiring myself from this topic. Good debate everyone, have an happy new year, you can find me at my talk page if you need so" Darwin 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn Easiest way to defuse this is to post a bolded and outdented statement at the very bottom of the this discussion stating you understand MOSGENDERID and will avoid pages or discussions where it may become an issue, and that you will avoid as far as possible, interacting with Skyshifter. If there are other issues here, I have no comment on those. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Ad Orientem I've already done it, but you keep writing below it, so it's not in the bottom anymore. Darwin 17:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn This one. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Which discussion are you talking about? Now I'm confused. Can't you be more clear? Darwin 16:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Simply post a note at the bottom of the discussion stating that given your respectful disagreement with parts of MOS:GENDERID that you will voluntarily avoid any articles or discussions where that is, or may become, an issue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How can I get out of this endless cycle, if each time you ask me to stop and I say I already stopped yesterday, you came back chastising me for having answered again? That's not fair. Darwin 16:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn The issue here is not whether you are right or wrong. The issue here is that you are violating a community guideline. That's it. Either you stop or you will end up getting blocked. I have my own disagreements with that guideline, and as a consequence I simply stay far away from those articles or discussions. You should too. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are continuing to post here, ergo you have not "walked away" from it, have you? GiantSnowman 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Heres the main point I can see RE "Cross-wiki harassment." If DarwIn claims they do not regularly edit this topic space and had not previously participated in DYK discussions how did they come to find themselves there just in time to oppose the contribution of an editor they had extensive negative interactions with on another wiki? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. Darwin 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. Darwin 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 Darwin 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. Darwin 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? Darwin 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Because of edits like this . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? Darwin 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? Darwin 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I answered a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. Darwin 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. Darwin 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- In my opinion we're still having this discussion because you are stonewalling, perhaps its a language barrier but you don't come off as trustworthy or engaging in good faith. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I confess I've no idea why we are still having this discussion, as they were just that. But for the 50th time, these interactions have stopped long ago, and for a similar amount of time I've devotedly accepted and committed to all your rules. Darwin 18:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits on enwiki had nothing to do with trolling or other behavioral issues from that account, if your edits on enwiki were to address valid concerns informed by your experience on other wikis we would not be having this discussion. It was also you restoring your comment which they removed from their talk page, thats you trolling them and it makes their dictator claim look not like trolling but rather accurate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I answered a troll, if there was any harassment was from that account towards me, not the opposite. Please don't invert the situation. Darwin 17:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- We're discussing cross wiki harassment, that makes edits on any wiki relevant to the discussion. You appear to have been harassing them on commons and then followed them here to continue the harassment because a temporary block there (which you appear to have had a hand in) prevented them from being active there. You absolutely can not do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just answered the troll there with another, as I was on the middle of something else. Yes, I know, not the nicest thing to do, but whatever. And why are we discussing Commons here now, anyway? Darwin 17:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- No, that diff is the undo. Thats you edit warring apparent harassment onto someone's talk page on another wiki with a kissing face as the edit summary... In that context this does look like cross wiki harassment. Do you have a better explanation? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- answering an accusation of being a dictator after flushing away the copyviios she uploaded. What's the problem? Darwin 17:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Because of edits like this . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back no, I followed the articles, as they were also created here yesterday. Is that so hard to understand? Darwin 17:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is this a related issue then? It sure looks like you followed this particular user around Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- it's the wikipedia articles created yesterday that we are evaluating, not any kind of DYK note. Darwin 17:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Please link the diff from portuguese wiki where the DYK for this wiki came up. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- precisely because we are currently in the process of evaluating the notability of that bio and association she created at the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, so it's just natural that related issues on other wikis get monitored too, that's part of the process. You don't agree with that evaluation, and that's perfectly OK. To each Misplaced Pages their own stuff 🤷 Darwin 16:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- And how did you become aware that there was something to disagree with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed my disagreement with that note, justifying with my opinion, and there's not even any misgendering issue there, AFAIK. Not sure if expressing that opinion here is forbidden or not, but in any case I've posted a note retiring from it already yesterday, so I've no idea what more do you want. Darwin 16:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't about the transphobia, this is about the harassment (they are seperate by apparently related claims). So how did you find yourself commenting on that DYK? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- that's old stuff, I already posted a note there retiring from that space yesterday. I'm really puzzled on what all this fuss is about. Darwin 16:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
I believe it may help too, if Darwin will promise to avoid interacting on main space with Skyshifter. GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Not that I ever interacted with her there AFAIK, anyway. Darwin 17:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think Darwin should avoid interacting with Skyshifter on all spaces on en.wikipedia.org. It's clear Darwin has made Skyshifter feel uncomfortable, and I don't appreciate it. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. Darwin 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary one-way interaction ban, broadly construed, as in effect. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway yes, that's correct. Darwin 18:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Since you "absolutely agree", then I will take your comment here as acknowledging a voluntary one-way interaction ban, broadly construed, as in effect. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway I absolutely agree with that, I'm not doing any sort of interaction with that account anymore. I'm still answering here because you keep mentioning me. Darwin 17:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think a one-way interaction ban between the editors would be for the best here. While I think there is some merit to a Gender and Sexuality tban, as some of Darwin's recent edits appear to be about righting great wrongs in the topic area, I believe the interaction ban would solve most of the issues raised here. Isabelle Belato 17:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? Darwin 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. Isabelle Belato 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me in the English Misplaced Pages? Darwin 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger Can you explain how my general edit history in wiki.pt is relevant in any way to an accusation of cross-wiki harassment? Darwin 23:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- When there is cross-wiki harassment, then yes, your activity on other wikis is relevant. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato You're evaluating my edits on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages to punish me in the English Misplaced Pages? Darwin 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- All your edits related to the subject, both here and on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. Isabelle Belato 18:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- which "edits"? The 1 or 2 comments in the DYK section? Darwin 18:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Would recommend that Darwin walk away from the general topic. This would avoid any need for topic bans. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Clarification
- Hello @Nil Einne - and others. Please recall that my opinion was specifically over the declaration of the child gender by her mother at or before her 4th birthday, by her mother own account based on classical gender stereotypes. It's specifically about that. I've no way to know what gender the child is or will eventually be in the future, and gladly accept whatever she chooses - as I would if she was my own child. I've eventually been harsher than needed in the DYK comment because that specific situation where a minor is extensively exposed with full name, photographs, etc. by her parents on social networks, newspapers and whatelse is generally condemned in my country, to the point of eventually configuring a crime here. Obviously Misplaced Pages has nothing to do with that when it comes to the spread of information, but in my view - obviously wrong, from the general reaction here - exposing the child in yet another place, let alone wiki.en main page, was a bit too much.
- As for misgendering, I am one of the founders and former board member of ILGA Portugal, which after 30 years still is the main LGBT association in Portugal, though not an active member for many years for moving away from Lisbon, where it's headquartered. For more than 30 years I've been on the fight against homophobia and transphobia, not specially in Misplaced Pages, but on the streets, where it was needed in the 1990s here in Portugal, when the whole LGBT thing was just starting and most people couldn't even tell the difference between a drag queen and a trangender woman. I was beaten up, lost my 2 front teeth on homo/transphobic street fights (the first one at 18 years old, for publicly defending from booers in the audience a trangender girl which was acting at a local bar )- and whatelse. I never had even the least impulse to misgender any of the many trangender people that always have been around me, and the few situations where that may have happened were online with people that I knew for years as being one gender, and took a while to sink they are another, because online there's not the ever helping visual clue. So it's kind of disheartening to be treated like this in a strange place by people I don't know just because I expressed an (harsh, agreed) opinion defending the age of consent for children, and condemning their parents interference on that.
- The TBan is not very relevant for me, as I seldom edit here and despite the activism of my past days LGBT is not my primary interest on Misplaced Pages, but I'm considerably saddened by the misunderstandings, bad faith assumptions, false accusations that have been told here about me, though eventually the flaw is not in the whole group that has their own rules and culture, but in the newcomer which don't understand it well in all its nuances, as was my case here.
- Finally, as the misunderstandings continue, I never came here after Skyshifter, which as is public and she knows, I've always considered a good editor and helped several times with articles and what else (which is also why I felt confident to answer with a 😘 when she called me a dictator in another project, though it was obviously not the most appropriate way to answer it, and for which I apologize to Skyshifter). In this last row I wasn't even directly involved in her indefinite block in wiki.pt, despite being mentioned there. I didn't even touched the articles she created here on Thamirys Nunes and Minha Criança Trans or addressed she here in any way. I came here because of the DYK note, which, as said above, I thought was an exaggerated exposition for that case here on the English Misplaced Pages. As you extensively demonstrated here, it is not, and I defer to your appreciation. Despite that, after this whole situation I've not the least interest on interacting in any possible way with Skyshifter, with or without IBan.
- And that's it. Hopefully you'll excuse my verbosity, specially in such a festive day, but I felt this last clarification was needed. I also present my apologies to all those who may have felt offended by an eventual appearance of cockiness or defiance which I inadvertently sometimes transmit in my speech. I'll return here if specifically asked to, otherwise I'll leave the debate for this community. Again, stay well, and have an happy new year. Darwin 17:58, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
Proposed Community Sanctions
I offered DarwIn an off ramp above and their response was to reiterate their views on a highly controversial subject and their responses to concerns about their interactions with Skyshifter have been entirely unsatisfactory. This looks a like a pretty clear case of IDHT revolving around their strong disagreement with one of our guidelines. Frankly, I came very close to just blocking them after their response to my suggestion. This discussion has already dragged on long enough. For purposes of clarity, nobody is required to agree with all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. And yes, gender is a highly controversial subject. I have my own disagreements with parts of MOS:GENDERID. But as the old saying goes, themz the rules until they aint. Editors are free to disagree with community P&G, but are not free to ignore or flout them. It's time to settle this.
Proposed DarwIn is topic banned from all pages and discussions relating to WP:GENSEX broadly construed and is subject to a one way IBan with user Skyshifter, also broadly construed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I note that Darwin has agreed above to the IBan. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - He's already agreed to avoid that general topic area in future & Skyshifter. PS - If a t-ban is imposed? limit it to six-months. GoodDay (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Why should the community accept voluntary TBAN and IBAN which can easily be reneged on when we can impose it as a community sanction and ensure that any violation is actionable? TarnishedPath 01:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support topic ban and IBAN, both broadly construed - sorry GoodDay but I do not trust this user's words, and so we need a proper sanction. GiantSnowman 18:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Just read through the above and good grief. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I said above I would support this proposal if it was brought forward, and I do. Simonm223 (talk) 18:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Why it should be a one-way iban? Skyshifter started this topic with the characterization of their opponent as "a known transphobic editor". A normal editor would be blocked just for writing this. I am not sure a iban is needed, but if it is needed it must be mutual. Ymblanter (talk) 18:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's actually a fair point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent WP:RGW impulse. Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 You have been misjudging me - It was quite the opposite, actually, if it's worth anything. Darwin 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the WP:GENSEX area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. Simonm223 (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 OK, I didn't knew the child used those pronouns when she was 4 years old, I commit to use them here if I would ever talk about that issue again (which I definitely will not, anyway). Darwin 20:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- The child, according to the reliable sources I have seen, uses she/her pronouns. Your changing your comments from he/him to they/them does not bring even that one comment in line with our MOS. I am not interested in whether you, in your heart of hearts, are a transphobe. I am concerned that your editing in the WP:GENSEX area is disruptive in a way that will likely make trans editors less comfortable working in the en.wiki project. As a result I think you should avoid editing in that topic area. Furthermore I think you should leave Skyshifter alone as you have not provided a satisfactory explanation for your participation in the DYK thread. Simonm223 (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 You have been misjudging me - It was quite the opposite, actually, if it's worth anything. Darwin 19:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would be more compelling if DarwIn weren't so committed to misgendering a child out of some apparent WP:RGW impulse. Simonm223 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's actually a fair point. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- If they weren't before they are now... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, to be clear, I oppose a one-way IB. I do not find this argument convincing. Ymblanter (talk) 19:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support this seems like a reasonable set of restrictions, I hope they can stick to it Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. Darwin 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back And those were the only ones, and I voluntarily stopped them yesterday immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to my stance here. You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. Darwin 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? Darwin 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ Darwin 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? Darwin 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back There was not any "lie", please stop assuming bad faith. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". Darwin 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- At best you're saying that you lack the competence on enwiki to adhere to any voluntary restrictions. This will be my last comment unless pinged by an editor other than you, my apologies that this has been an unpleasant process for you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Darwin has a long history of editing in WP:GENSEX albeit generally less controversially. an example. Simonm223 (talk) 20:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. Darwin 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- DarwIn WP:GENSEX covers gender and sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 Thanks for clarifying that. Fact is that I don't edit much here. I've occasionally added or fixed some LGBT related stuff in the past when it crossed my main interest, History, but it certainly is not a primary interest, despite being LGBT myself. Darwin 20:49, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- DarwIn WP:GENSEX covers gender and sexuality. You have been saying you aren't interested in the topic area. It appears to be one of your main areas of interest on en.wiki. Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Simonm223 That's documented with the sources and all, and the proposition there was that the tupinambá was gay, not a woman. It's not even gender related. So you desperatly want something to justify a TB, bring it on. I'm fed up with what seems to be a circular and nonsense discussion on this board, where whatever I say is a lie and with bad intentions. I don't even edit here in the gender topic, but if it makes you happy, bring it on. Darwin 20:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back There was not any "lie", please stop assuming bad faith. I thought you were referring to the main space only, which I believe is a fairly assumption to do, if the used word is "editing". Darwin 20:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Given the sheer quantity of lies and obfuscations from you (the truth is apparently a last resort) the only fix I can see is a formal one, a topic ban and an interaction ban. Up above you so easily went from "I never edited in the topic area" to "those were the only ones" that I don't even think you understand that you were caught in a blatant lie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back Change to "she", following this wikipedia rules, certainly. So if I can't fix them, what do you propose instead to mend it? Darwin 20:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- You are not supposed to edit comments after they have been responded to in that way. But by fix do you mean change to "she" or do you mean change to "they"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I can fix those too as I did yesterday, if you think it's important 🤷🏽♂️ Darwin 20:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- This edit might help you get the point. At this point your conduct on this page is becoming a serious behavioral issue... you can't lie, sealion, obfuscate, and misdirect endlessly without consequences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your point. What is wrong with correcting the gender to a neutral pronoun in such a situation? Darwin 20:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- How is that in direct opposition to your stance there? Your edit summary says "forgot that English has the neutral pronoun, which is useful in these cases. fixed." which suggests that it is in line with that stance Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back And those were the only ones, and I voluntarily stopped them yesterday immediately after being reverted. How does that configure the kind of systematic behaviour that would justify a topic ban? I really apologize, but in this moment the way I see this is a kind of Salem witch hunt, with people accusing me of all kind of slurs and abominations, even when they are in directly opposition to my stance here. You seem to be punishing me for my opinions and the way I (supposedly) think about a very particular issue (if 4 years old have self determination or not), which comes out to me as really unfair and unworthy of a project like this. Darwin 20:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your edits to DYK were within that topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back I never edited in that topic here, as far as I can remember, not is it a primary interest I have, so it certainly will not be difficult to hold, even if it comes out to me as incredibly unbased and unfair. Darwin 19:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support per Bushranger. charlotte 20:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. As GoodDay noted, the problem appears to already be addressed. If the problem persists then go for a sanction. Look we let people argue their point here and it does seem like most of the support is because editors feel Darwin isn't contrite enough, not that they expect the issue to continue. Note that I'm not weighing in on any interaction bans. Springee (talk) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose per Springee. This entire issue could have been dropped days ago when DarwIn acknowledged he would walk away, and instead seems to have been needlessly escalated again and again and again. * Pppery * it has begun... 20:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Pppery: days ago? I think you might have misread the time stamps. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:57, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support the TBAN; personally I'd have indeffed several outdents sooner, but here we are. No opinion on the IBAN. ⇒SWATJester 23:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support Given what's happened, I think an enforceable topic ban is better than Darwin stepping away. IMO the BLP issues is far more concerning than gensex one so I'd support a BLP topic ban as well, but it seems likely a gensex one would be enough to stop Darwin feeling the continued need to express their opinions on a living person. Since Darwin is going to step away anyway and barely edits en, it should be a moot point and if it's not that's why it's enforceable. As for the iban, while I don't think Skyshifter should have described Darwin in that way when opening this thread, I think we can accept it as a one time mistake under the stress of apparently being followed and given questionable way Darwin ended up in a dispute here with someone they'd had problems with elsewhere I think a one-way iban is justified. Nil Einne (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? Darwin 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times #c-DarwIn-20241229133200-Skyshifter-20241229132800, #c-DarwIn-20241229152900-Simonm223-20241229150600, #c-DarwIn-20241229154200-Blue-Sonnet-20241229154000, #c-DarwIn-20241229154100-Simonm223-20241229153800, #c-DarwIn-20241229160700-GiantSnowman-20241229154400, #c-DarwIn-20241229172200-Ad_Orientem-20241229171800. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like thought police. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here. Darwin 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. Darwin 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- User:DarwIn, I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. Liz
- @Liz: Thank you for the wise advice, I'll be doing that. Darwin 03:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: you can think whatever you like about living persons. I have a lot of views on living persons which I would never, ever express on wiki for various reasons including BLP. Also you defence is bullshit. No one ever asked you to make accusations around living persons to defend your actions. And yes it is fairly normal that editors may be sanctioned if they feel they need to do such things about living persons on ANI as part of some silly argument or defence. I recall an editor who was temporarily blocked after they felt the need to say two very very famous extremely public figure living persons (and some non living) were sex predators to prove some point at ANI. And I'm fairly sure a lot of people have said and feel those people are sex predators including some Wikipedians I'd even probably agree in at least one case, they just understand it's not something they should be expressing here. Nil Einne (talk) 23:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- For clarity, what I mean by my last sentence is that I'm sure quite a few people would agree with the statements. I'm sure such statements have been made elsewhere probably even in opinions printed in reliable sources (I think the editor did link to some such opinions). I'm sure even quite a few Wikipedians would agree that one or more of these people are sex predators, I think I'd even agree with it in at least one case. However most of us understand that our personal views of living persons, especially highly negatives views are generally not something to be expressed on wiki except when for some reason it's important enough to the discussion that it's reasonable to say it. When you keep saying something and in the same paragraph acknowledge the English wikipedia doesn't consider your opinion relevant, then it's clear there was no reason for you to say it. You're still free to believe it just as I'm still free to believe all those things about living persons that I would never express on wiki. Nil Einne (talk) 06:08, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- User:DarwIn, I think at this point, further comments from you will not be helping your case. If this is insufferable (and being summoned to ANI generally is), it might help to step back from this discussion and only respond if editors ask you specific questions. When discussions get this long, often the small benefit from continuing to comment does not outweigh the cost of continued misunderstanding among editors. Liz
- I expressed it only 1-one-1 time here almost 1 day before being recalled here to explain it, and after voluntarily saying in the same page that I would not express it again there. Now I'm being punished for explaining it here too, after being requested to do that? This is insufferable. Darwin 00:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Holding an opinion ≠ expressing an opinion. Only one of these is causing an issue. Blue Sonnet (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- So let's get this straight. You are proposing a topic ban on me because of the personal opinions on (the eventual lack of) selfdetermination of 4 year old children that I expressed here in this board, despite that my editions related to it were limited to a 1-single-1 comment on that issue on the DYK page? This is really looking like thought police. I tell you, my personal positions are my personal positions, and I'll not change them to please you, even if if costs me a Topic Ban for barely mentioned them on this project a single time before this topic was opened here. Darwin 00:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DarwIn: Demonstrating the problem. You claim you only did it once elsewhere but anyone reading this thread can see you did it here so many times #c-DarwIn-20241229133200-Skyshifter-20241229132800, #c-DarwIn-20241229152900-Simonm223-20241229150600, #c-DarwIn-20241229154200-Blue-Sonnet-20241229154000, #c-DarwIn-20241229154100-Simonm223-20241229153800, #c-DarwIn-20241229160700-GiantSnowman-20241229154400, #c-DarwIn-20241229172200-Ad_Orientem-20241229171800. I think it represents maybe 1/3 of your comments here (whether counting comments or text). There is absolutely no reason for you to go around expressing your opinions on two different living persons to say you're going to walk away. And if you need to express your opinion on living persons to defend your actions, you clearly have no defence. Nil Einne (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne What " continued need to express their opinions on a living person"? My single-1-single comment in the DYK? Darwin 23:46, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support - Darwin's replies and conduct here indicates that he simply doesn't get it.
- MiasmaEternal☎ 02:52, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - Per GoodDay and Springee. Ciridae (talk) 05:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Support TBAN per Bushranger. Darwin has already agreed to the 1-way IBAN — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 10:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Given the history at pt.wiki, I think this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. There should be no interaction between the parties, which Darwin has agreed to.Boynamedsue (talk) 14:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose The agreed-upon IBAN takes care of the ongoing issue. While the edits related to the child were problematic, this doesn't appear to be case of significantly wider problems in this topic area, and the full scope of MOS:GENDERID may very well be surprising to editors who don't do much in that area. I don't think there's been near enough here to no longer WP:AGF. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 15:38, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Support TBAN/IBANWeak support TBAN/Strong support IBAN - WP:NQP suggests that queerphobia is inherently disruptive. calling a queer activist a "troglodyte", the previous history of abuse on pt.wikipedia, and the current responses from Darwin indicate WP:NOTHERE behavior. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- "A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. EEng 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. EEng 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- OK boomer. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, you certainly put me in my place with that one. EEng 21:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK boomer. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- No need to thank me. It's just part of the service. EEng 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your valuable input. As always, you have advanced the conversation in a helpful way EEng. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- "A Boy Named Sue", made famous by Johnny Cash sixty years ago , is a transphobic "joke about misgendering people"??? Oh my god, some people need to get out in the real world more. EEng 23:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- I understand. Speaking up for the witch is a sign I too might be a witch. I'll try to be more careful in future.Boynamedsue (talk) 20:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Misgendering BLPs is disruptive. A Johnny Cash related username is not. Suggest the IP WP:DROPTHESTICK - while we may disagree with Boynamedsue regarding their interpretation here they have done nothing wrong. Simonm223 (talk) 21:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- If I was named after a joke about misgendering people, I'd avoid defending crosswiki culture warriors worried about misgendering people. You may just really be into Shel Silverstein. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh dear. Do you think I should have a siteban, or would a TBAN suffice?--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- No. It's stopping a disruptive editor from continuing to edit disruptively. Simonm223 (talk) 17:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Followung editors from wiki to wiki because of transphobic beliefs is disruptive, and creepy. A boy named sue is a transphobic song by the way. 107.115.5.100 (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) NQP is an essay. Essentially it's an op-ed piece. It does not carry any force in the realm of WP:PG, and the views expressed there are controversial. (See the essay's talk page.). IMO words with some variation on "phobe/phobic" &c. are being routinely weaponized by people on one side of hot button cultural/political debates as part of an effort to demonize those on the other side of these debates. As such, I am inclined to view the use of such terms as a specie of WP:NPA. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- fair enough, i'll remove my vote for TBAN.
- sidenote, I have no qualms with labeling a behavior as queerphobia. I don't think calling out discrimination or disruptive attitudes is inherently a vio of NPA. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- ... I am indecisive.. I'll add weak support for TBAN, I still think the topic area should not have folks who are disruptive like this. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:18, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Pervasively misgendering a child based on the belief that a child cannot express a desire to transition is a form of transphobic behavior. If it was a similar comment made about a BLP on the basis of religion or skin colour there would be no mention of WP:NPA. Misplaced Pages is generally good about handling racism. It is a perpetual stain upon the reputation of Misplaced Pages that it's culture continues to worry more about the feelings of people who take transphobic actions than of the victims of the same. Simonm223 (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose as unnecessary given the commitments already given. WaggersTALK 11:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- This reasoning looks like a case of punishing somebody for political and cultural views rather than behaviour.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
| Let's not. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 30 December 2024 (UTC). Edited to include edit conflict comment. CNC (talk) 15:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC) |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
| This is affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC) |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
As a ptwiki user that know what's happening but talked to both sides of the discussion throughout it: This whole discussion started as a beef between Skyshifter and DarwIn. Skyshifter didn't accept some changes DarwIn made to an article "of her" (quotes because articles doesn't have owners. I respect her pronouns), and when discussing with DarwIn, called the whole Portuguese Misplaced Pages project a sewage (here)/in her UP, thus being banned and the ban being endorsed on the block discussion (in portuguese). The discussion was based on the references for the article, was solved in the ptwiki with an outburst from Sky, and that was it. This whole problem was brought here for a single reason only: Beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. A single change or a single opinion on a DYK shouldn't be reason for a TB or IBAN anywhere in the world, especially considering that it was a difference interpreting the references. I know that my statement won't change anything, as there is an apparent "consensus" on TBanning and IBANning him, though I wanted to make things clear for everyone. I am totally open for questioning regarding any of my statements above, and I will supply you with any proof I have and you need. Just ping me here and if the inquiry/proofs are extremely important, please leave me a message on my portuguese talk page (direct url). It can be in English, just for me to see you need me here. Cheers. Eduardo G. 03:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC) JardelW is a user who was banned from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages due to his detestable behavior. This individual used the same Telegram group that he is now criticizing. The editor was banned from this group due to his behavior, in which he called respected users of the community "worms, scoundrels, trash and deniers". And DarwIn is one of the administrators of the group where he is banned, so you can already imagine why he is here. Now, once again he is trying to destabilize the community by defending an editor who called the entire project a sewer and made unproven accusations against an administrator. At this point, the account is practically banned and the article that caused the discord has its deletion or merge defended by several editors. By coming here, JardelW and Skyshifter are, in a way, stating that the entire community is prejudiced. Yet another offense enters the list as proof of Jardel's destabilizing behavior. Furthermore, this user already tried to carry out the same destabilization by contesting on meta the banning of IPs, a consensual decision among hundreds of editors. And when he was still blocked, went to Meta-Wiki in an attempt to intervene in the Misplaced Pages domain, where he is banned, simply because he did not agree with the deletion of an article. And this without presenting any evidence. It is clear that Jardel's objective here is to take revenge on the community, and he will be punished for it. InvictumAlways (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
|
- InvictumAlways - this is your second edit ever, and your account was just created today - how did you get to this ANI post? jellyfish ✉ 05:06, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I saw a discussion in the group and created the account to not appear as an IP. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Jardel The objective of the channel is to be a more relaxed place. And it's not official, as you said yourself previously. Angry moment? Are you sorry? After your block, you attacked editors on a social network, as attested by a CheckUser: . And there are no prejudiced comments. That's a lie. Where are the links? And how much time have you devoted to the project when all you do is attack others? Enough of this nonsense. I ask that an administrator evaluate the conduct of this account. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't realize the discussion was closed. Sorry. InvictumAlways (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Supporting both IBAN and TBAN. Someone who actively believes in misgendering should not be allowed into this area when they have already demonstrably made another editor uncomfortable. The snarky reply to GiantSnowman does not convince me they would respond well if another editor brought up a similar concern in the future.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- Can't we give this child and her mother some privacy? What is it about gender issues, as opposed to other medical or developmental issues, that seems to give everyone a right to comment? Let's just report what reliable sources say and leave it at that. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. Nil Einne (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- talkpages def are covered by BLP as per the policy page.and the policy gives wide latitude about what the subject may have redacted if they object to info, even if they had previously or somehow otherwise placed that info in public domain.
- concerns about privacy have to weigh against dueness but arguing the book gives dueness to try to be internet sleuths and discover and identify a child is probs not gonna pass the smell test.Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Children cannot consent, their parents can. (CC) Tbhotch 21:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would totally agree, but that is irrelevant here, nothing Darwin did was related to revealing the child's identity. He criticised the mother in strong terms on talkpages and this is what the BLP argument comes down to.--Boynamedsue (talk) 23:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? Nil Einne (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ask yourself whether Misplaced Pages would even entertain this discourse if the identity was anything other than a trans one. The answer is a flat no. Darwin's interpretation of the mother's interpretation of her daughter's identity is inappropriate for the project, is disruptive and is openly antagonistic toward trans editors. I think nothing more can be gained from endlessly debating whether we should pretend there is a carve-out to BLP requirements for children within oppressed minorities. Simonm223 (talk) 17:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't feel disputing the validity of the process by which the mother came to the conclusion the child was trans is covered by BLP. The description she made of the process is public knowledge, if a person wants to say "she shouldn't have done it like that" then they are not making any claims about the person at all, merely about whether, in their opinion, their actions are correct.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. He's clearly disputing the child's identity. He might feel that's justified but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for that crap. Whatever the wisdom of whatever the mother did, there's zero reason to think the child is helped in any way by an editor denying their identity. As I've said before, if at any time the child says what the mother said was wrong or otherwise indicates they have a different identity from what's been presented then we'll change our article. But until that happens, we should treat things as they are and not allow editors to question the child's identity. I'd note that DarwIn also kept talking about the child's age in a very misleading way to the extent that I eventually felt complelled point out their bullshit. I did not want to talk about the child's age here on ANI, it shouldn't relate to anything. But what can we do when DarwIn keeps uttering nonsense about the child's age? Nil Einne (talk) 13:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mother may have decided to publicise things, but the child certainly hasn't. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- The woman's book names the child, and photos of her are regularly published by the mother on instagram. There is an interview with the mother in Brazilian Marie Claire giving the child's full name and photos. I would suggest not much "internet sleuthing" is required here. Misplaced Pages, and I include Darwin in this, has (rightly) much more concern for her daughter's privacy than she does.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think BLP covers things that the subject puts into the public domain about themselves or, when we are talking about talkpages, personal opinions on the morality of things they reveal about themselves.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- BLP requires we take great care what we say about living persons regardless of the wisdom of their decisions. This is hardly the first time it's come up where both in articles and in discussions we've required editors obey BLP even if there is a lot of nonsense out there which arises in part from decisions subjects have made. Editors can do that stuff on Reddit or 4chan or wherever they want without such requirements. If editors cannot follow our BLP requirements, they need to stop editing either voluntarily or involuntarily. Nil Einne (talk) 10:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- If the mother had wanted privacy for her child, writing a book which makes it possible to identify her and know intimate details of her biology for the rest of her life, while documenting her transition step by step for hundreds of thousands of instagram followers, seem strange choices. I don't feel there are any privacy concerns here, that horse has long bolted, and we had nothing to do with opening the door.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support TBAN, no comment on IBAN. This is blatant POV harassment. (CC) Tbhotch 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. Editors in this topic area can and often do disagree on the underlying issues, which often helpfully ensures that all such material on Misplaced Pages follows our policies and guidelines. However, the responses to Ad Orientem's request and various replies above shows that the proposed remedies would be appropriate given the BLP issues in play here.-- Patar knight - /contributions 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose any sanctions I’m sorry if I’m interfering in something I’m not involved with, but I’ve been watching this discussion and I think it’s needlessly toxic. What I’m seeing is a misunderstanding of some inappropriate WP:OR on a hot-button issue sparking a dispute that turned into “DarwIn is a transphobic bully” which I don’t think is true. I think the two main parties should simply avoid each other voluntarily and the situation will quickly de-escalate. Dronebogus (talk) 05:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support TBAN, indifferent to IBAN. Having followed this topic for a few days, it's convinced me that a topic ban for both GENSEX and BLP is entirely appropriate in this instance. My initial scepticism passed after reading responses from the editor and realising that the understanding of BLP policy appears to be even more incomplete than I originally thought. The deceleration from the editor to avoid such topics voluntarily is irrelevant, as combined with the lack of understanding over the concept of broadly construed, commitments have already been made and broken within this discussion alone. So respectfully, I believe this WP:NOTHERE type editing, whether it is attempting to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS or simply WP:BLUDGEONING discussions, is nonetheless disruptive and uncivil at times. CNC (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose per Dronebogus. I'd say "we're better than this" if I believed it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Skyshifter, if anything, is harassing Darwin in this instance. Darwin has agreed to an IBAN, never mind that he's expressed desires to deëscelate what has become the longest thread on AN or ANI as of writing. JayCubby 22:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support This is a pretty explicit case of POV harassment. Their replies to the topic likewise do not give me faith they will adhere to a self imposed limitation. Darwin claimed to have agreed to step away before the ANI was created, but the edit history shows that Darwin continued editing the page up until an hour before Skyshifter created the ANI. Thus, there should be an actionable sanction. I fail to understand how it is Skyshifter doing the harassment at all as Cubby suggests. Darwin even called skyshifter a troglydite (here) to boot. Relm (talk) 15:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh my fucking god. This whole thread is nuts. I wish I could pardon my french but this is CRAZY.
- Never in a million years would’ve I expected myself to be responding to a thread like this but I mean here I am.
- Although Skywing’s concerns of harassment are valid especially if he’s being tracked across Misplaced Pages’s website, as far as I know, there are no guidelines that state someone can be punished for actions on another Misplaced Pages.
- I support the notion of Darwin being topic banned from gender related articles (especially trans ones), for the simple fact that his conflict of interest with transphobia has clearly caused a disruption to the Misplaced Pages community.
- I oppose with the IP-ban because if anything this SHOULD’VE ended a week ago when Darwin voluntarily said he would not edit those pages as well as avoid any interaction with Skywing.
Reader of Information (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)- No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. Relm (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I understand, I meant that. Apologies. I misunderstood what it stood for. I would prefer if the IBAN was two way instead of one-way. Seems hardly fair in my honest opinion when both I suppose are equally responsible and to share the blame. This is a messy situation so putting the blame on one when both are equally responsible seems hardly fair. But that's my two cents.
- NOTE: I don't condone homophobia or queerphobia or whatever the term is (I'm not really informed enough in this situation to know what Misplaced Pages calls it so I'm adding both just in case) so please don't take it as me defending either side as that is NOT my intent.
- Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 01:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- This reply reminded me of the essay WP:CLUE. CNC (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lol. It is accurate. That literally is what it is I suppose lol. Reader of Information (talk) 01:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- This reply reminded me of the essay WP:CLUE. CNC (talk) 01:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- No one has proposed an IP Ban. The Aforementioned 'IBan' is a one way interaction-ban. Relm (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose any sanctions against Darwin per Dronebogus. I wish we were better than this, but like TBUA, I don't actually believe that we are. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support both TBAN and IBAN. Their behaviour at DYK might have been mitigated if they had taken responsibility here instead of doubling down. A TBAN and IBAN will reduce disruption. TarnishedPath 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at Special:Diff/1267644460 accusing me of coming to their talk page to "
further troll me with this nonsense warning
". TarnishedPath 01:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- After I left my comment above and after providing Darwin with a CTOP notice they commented at Special:Diff/1267644460 accusing me of coming to their talk page to "
- Support both. I'm baffled that some people above are saying "well, they agreed to stop voluntarily" - did they not read the massive post Darwin made above? It amounts to an extended "I'm sorry that you were offended." Trusting that someone will avoid the same mistakes in the future on their own requires that they understand and admit to those mistakes, which is obviously not the case here; how can we trust that an editor will abide by a self-imposed restriction when they won't even meaningfully acknowledge the errors that made that restriction necessary? Therefore, sanctions are necessary. --Aquillion (talk) 03:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support both. To make sure I haven't lost my goddamn mind, I read this discussion twice. I personally believe Darwin is in the wrong here. His behavior on enwiki violates both GENSEX and BLP sanctions (), and he doubled down when he had the chance to defend himself (Special:Diff/1267644460 and comments above). Even if we play devil's advocate and assume Darwin's claims about Sky being a troll/vandal and sockmaster (which is a heavy accusation to make) on ptwiki are true, her work on enwiki has shown that she's changed for the better. This is coming from a person who has interacted with Sky a couple of times (Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Virtual Self (EP)/archive1, Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Virtual Self (EP)/archive2, Talk:Quannnic/GA1); she is an amazing editor on here. For the sake of everyone involved and to avoid another mess like this, the sanctions above should be enforced. 💽 LunaEclipse 💽 🌹 ⚧ 08:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Skyshifter taking matters from another Misplaced Pages to seek revenge.
| 100% affairs of other wikis. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
This entire subsection is about Eduardo Gottert casting aspersions on Skyshifter and providing no diffs or evidence of this "revenge" except for statements about what is going on on another language Misplaced Pages which have no bearing on what occurs here. I'm closing this now before this WP:BOOMERANGs on to Eduardo Gottert and editors start proposing a block for personal attacks. Baseless counter attacks are generally dismissed at the English Misplaced Pages ANI. Please do not reopen this section. Liz 09:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. On the 29th of December, User:Skyshifter started an AN/I based on a claim that User:DarwIn, a sysop at ptwiki, was cross-wiki harrassing her. To make up those claims, she used as a single proof, of him editing on a DYK nomination here. AFAIK, DYK nominations are open for debate. She accused him of transphobia, a very harsh word, over some 5 edits on the same page, and all the other arguments in her accusation were from the ptwiki with absolutely no relation to the English Misplaced Pages, and she tried to "force" that it was a cross-wiki harrassment, when it wasn't. The sole reason for that AN/I is a beef from Skyshifter with DarwIn. But all of this happened only, and just because of her banishment for the portuguese wiki. She is the cross-wiki harrasser in this situation, as she came to a project where DarwIn hasn't got nearly as many edits as his home-wiki and most of his edits are on discussions or category/commons related, to try blocking him and thus tarnish his block log. This is all for revenge of some articles that are being debated and will be either deleted or merged with other articles, and especially over her permanent block on the Portuguese Misplaced Pages, after calling the whole platform a sewage (here and in her UP), casting aspersions over other users and using ducks and meatpuppets to revert back the articles (one of her meats is currently being blocked from ptwiki too, see it here, with all the proofs). The block discussion taking place at the moment has 10 administrator votes in favour of the block, and absolutely no contrary opinion whatsoever. Despite some not-so-good arguments from DarwIn in the AN/I above, it is more than clear that the reason for the opening of the said AN/I was personal and for revenge. I'm open to any questions regarding this topic, as there is plenty of evidence to sustain my claims. All of this that she's doing would clearly fall under pt:WP:NDD, here called WP:ASPERSIONS I think, and disruptive editing/WP:POINT, and in the AN/I above she's commiting WP:BLUDGEON, repeating the eye-catching word "transphobia" over and over, without sustaining her argument accordingly, seeking to block a sysop at other 3 projects and rollbacker here, with the sole objective of tarnishing his block log, just for revenge and self-fullfillment. Eduardo G. 05:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
|
John40332 reported by CurryTime7-24
John40332 has been blocked sitewide. Reader of Information (talk) 01:33, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Moved from WP:AIV – ToBeFree (talk) 14:12, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
John40332 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – On Psycho (1960 film) (diff): account is being used only for promotional purposes; account is evidently a spambot or a compromised account. User's recent edits have been dedicated almost invariably to inserting links in classical music-related articles to an obscure sheet music site. Behavior appeared to be WP:REFSPAM and WP:SPA. Personal attempts to curb this behavior or reach a compromise were rejected by user. Further attempts to engage with them at WT:CM resulted in WP:ICANTHEARYOU, despite three other editors informing user that their edits appeared to be spam or some kind of advocacy. CurryTime7-24 (talk) 08:50, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not a bot and not spamming, you just keep WP:HOUNDING me repeatedly, I cited sources to the publisher of the books in question. You appear to suffer from WP:OWN and act like I need your consent to edit the articles you feel that belong to you. You also know I'm not a compromised account, you spam Assume_good_faith on your reverts but you're mostly bullying other editors into submission.
- You've been asked to stop disrupting editing https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:CurryTime7-24#January_2025 , and continue to harass any edits that touch "your" articles.
- You also keep saying I add citation to obscure music sites, just because you don't know something doesn't make it obscure. Additionally, you are the only person raising this as an issue because you're extremely controlling of the articles, you don't own Misplaced Pages and hopefully some other editor or admin can remind you of that. John40332 (talk) 09:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you claiming that SheetMusicX is a reliable source for these articles? If so then someone (it may be me but I don't guarantee it) should take it to the reliable sources noticeboard. I note that several editors have queried this, not just CurryTime7-24. John40332 is clearly not a spambot or compromised account, so please avoid over-egging the pudding. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:19, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is reliable and listed with other respectable publishers, it's the homepage of the Canadian music publishing house Edition Zeza, their books are part of the National Library Collections, WorldCat.org shows their books in libraries around the world etc, I shouldn't even have to dig this far because 1 editor decided he WP:OWN Misplaced Pages. The links I had included provided relevant information about the articles I was editing (orchestration, dates, duration etc). Cited information from a publisher of said work, which is exactly what WP:SOURCEDEF suggests doing. John40332 (talk) 18:41, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- The editor's history does seem suspicious. From 2014 to 2023 they made a total of 24 edits to article space, almost all of which were to Charlie Siem and Sasha Siem. Then after more than a year of no edits, in the last 5 weeks they have made 38 edits to article space, of which all except three added a reference to sheetmusicx.com. This is a commercial site that sells sheet music. As far as I can see, every reference added was a link to a page that sells a particular piece of sheet music. This certainly seems like WP:REFSPAM. CodeTalker (talk) 19:00, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- So is the problem that I'm actively contributing now, or that the cited sources aren't good enough? You guys are grasping at straws at this point.user:CurryTime7-24 added links to commercial sites diff1 , such as to Fidelio Music (to which he appears to be an affiliate) and yet no one raises a flag. Even when I added a source without removing his, he removed mine diff2 to keep only his link to Fidelio Music. John40332 (talk) 19:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is no "you guys" here. You have exactly the same status, as a volunteer editor, as I do. I have no idea who CurryTime7-24 is, or whether that editor is an affiliate. I just know about reliable sources and that we should not be linking to any commercial site, except possibly to the original publisher of a work. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:38, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- So is the problem that I'm actively contributing now, or that the cited sources aren't good enough? You guys are grasping at straws at this point.user:CurryTime7-24 added links to commercial sites diff1 , such as to Fidelio Music (to which he appears to be an affiliate) and yet no one raises a flag. Even when I added a source without removing his, he removed mine diff2 to keep only his link to Fidelio Music. John40332 (talk) 19:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you claiming that SheetMusicX is a reliable source for these articles? If so then someone (it may be me but I don't guarantee it) should take it to the reliable sources noticeboard. I note that several editors have queried this, not just CurryTime7-24. John40332 is clearly not a spambot or compromised account, so please avoid over-egging the pudding. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:19, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:COIBot has compiled a page, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spam/Local/sheetmusicx.com of edits with links to this website. This list was not created by CurryTime7-24 but by a bot looking for instances of conflict-of-interests. All of the problems you are concerned about, John40332, would not exist if you would just stop posting links to this website. If you would agree to stop referring to sheetmusicx.com, you wouldn't be "hounded" or be defending yourself and we could close this complaint. Can you agree to that editing restriction? And, if you can't, then why are you insisting on linking to this particular website? Liz 02:09, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because it's a valid source according to:
- WP:REPUTABLE - "Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources"
- WP:SOURCEDEF - The publisher of the work (and not only the first ever publisher, any reputable publisher of a work)
- WP:PUBLISHED - "Published means, for Misplaced Pages's purposes, any source that was made available to the public in some form."
Interestingly, "someone" (and I'm not saying it's CurryTime7-24) came to my talk page yesterday to write "kill yourself", I can only think of 1 person who is hounding me this much though, but that doesn't seem to be taken seriously. John40332 (talk) 07:29, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not "interesting", that's despicable; as is your insinuation. As for sheetmusicx as as source: for what? That they published some work? Why is that noteworthy? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:00, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a source for information about the work. Yes it's despicable, and as I said, no one takes it seriously, I'm not insinuating anything, admins can look into the IP themselves. John40332 (talk) 08:10, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- So, you would prefer that this dispute continue on, which could lead to sanctions for you, rather than simply stop using this website as a reference? To me, when I see that kind of behavior, it's typically a sign of a paid editor. Liz 09:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- There's no dispute, it's a reliable source and user:CurryTime7-24 makes a fuss about it because of his WP:OWN syndrome and potential WP:COI with his affiliation with Fidelio Music.
- Why are you against a source that complies with WP:RELIABILITY ? John40332 (talk) 09:35, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because your use of that source is pretty clearly intended as promotional. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:27, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's hard to understand how you can say "there's no dispute" when there is quite obviously a dispute; six editors in this thread alone have questioned your use of that source. You have invoked WP:RS to claim that the website is an acceptable source, but I'm not sure you have understood what that guideline says about commercial sites; they are allowed as references only to verify simple facts such as titles and running times. You have not used sheetmusicx.com for such purposes; you have used it to tell the reader where they can purchase sheet music (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc). CodeTalker (talk) 01:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- I used it to add relevant information that didn't exist on Misplaced Pages.
- When I added "Psycho A Narrative for String Orchestra" diff that exists since 1968 and never mentioned on Misplaced Pages, but CurryTime decided to harass me there too.
- When I added the orchestration for Tambourin Chinois diff, which CurryTime decided to remove too.
- I used information by the publisher to confirm facts, as per WP:RS, if commercial sources are not allowed to verify contributions, then why is everyone so quiet about CurryTime's affiliation to Fidelio Music links ? So far these comments are a good example of WP:HUNT, first I was accused of spamming, then of being a bot, then that my account was compromised, then that the source used wasn't reliable, if you run out of ideas try my religion or ethnicity. John40332 (talk) 08:50, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you added the bit about Psycho - which included the link with the same phrasing as on the other edits where it was obvious "buy this music here". Your edits are either promotional or are indistinguishable from being promotional. That is why they are being removed. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- You have repeatedly said that CurryTime7-24 is an affiliate of Fidelio. Can you show us your evidence of that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here he removed my source to add Fidelio Music diff1
- Here again to make sure only Fidelio Music exists diff2
- And obviously here, deleting what I added to include Fidelio Music exclusively diff3
- Here he completely deleted everything I added about the piece as part of his WP:HOUNDING diff4 John40332 (talk) 19:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- That may be evidence of something, good or bad, but it's certainly not evidence that that editor is an affiliate. But, anyway, the action that hould have been taken a few days ago has now been taken, so we can stop talking now. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- So, you would prefer that this dispute continue on, which could lead to sanctions for you, rather than simply stop using this website as a reference? To me, when I see that kind of behavior, it's typically a sign of a paid editor. Liz 09:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a source for information about the work. Yes it's despicable, and as I said, no one takes it seriously, I'm not insinuating anything, admins can look into the IP themselves. John40332 (talk) 08:10, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be nice if an admin would compare the IP address 181.215.89.116 that told me to kill myself on my Talk Page, to existing users, now that would be fun to find out who is so against my edits, because so far the only action was a suspension. John40332 (talk) 08:58, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Checkuser is not for fishing. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- In any case the most obvious guess is: some unrelated troll who saw your name on this board. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Checkuser is not for fishing. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
It appears that there is consensus here and at WT:CM against linking to Sheet Music X. Is it possible for an admin to propose a resolution here? —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 17:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- The only consensus is your WP:OWN syndrome, the sources linked are reliable and fit for purpose. People have questioned my use of the source, not the reliability of it.
- You created this complaint stating that I'm a spammer, a bot or a compromised account, has that consensus been reached too ? John40332 (talk) 18:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, John40332, you are wrong about the lack of consensus, and there is clear consensus against you linking to that commercial sheet music sales site. So, either you agree to stop doing so, or you get subjected to formal sanctions. Which will it be? Cullen328 (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- So CurryTime can throw random accusations until something sticks? John40332 (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK, then. John40332 is indefinitely blocked from article space. The editor is free to make well-referenced, formal edit requests on article talk pages. The editor is warned that continuing to attempt to add links to Sheet Music X may lead to a sitewide block. The editor is advised to read the Guide to appealing blocks. Cullen328 (talk) 19:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I made well referenced edits directly from a reputable publisher. Enjoy the power trip. John40332 (talk) 19:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please refrain from personal attacks which violate policy. Cullen328 (talk) 19:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let me quote Misplaced Pages's page for Power Trip "(...) someone in a position of greater power uses that power unjustifiably against a lower-ranking person, typically just for display of dominance.", since you showed up just to block me when I haven't even edited anything else until this incident was cleared. I didn't spam, I'm not a bot, my account isn't compromised, I referenced a reputable publisher that due to CurryTime's WP:COI and WP:OWN made him start this issue. John40332 (talk) 19:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Put that shovel down before you are indef blocked completely. increase indef block to all namespaces for battleground mentality. Lavalizard101 (talk) 19:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let me quote Misplaced Pages's page for Power Trip "(...) someone in a position of greater power uses that power unjustifiably against a lower-ranking person, typically just for display of dominance.", since you showed up just to block me when I haven't even edited anything else until this incident was cleared. I didn't spam, I'm not a bot, my account isn't compromised, I referenced a reputable publisher that due to CurryTime's WP:COI and WP:OWN made him start this issue. John40332 (talk) 19:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please refrain from personal attacks which violate policy. Cullen328 (talk) 19:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I made well referenced edits directly from a reputable publisher. Enjoy the power trip. John40332 (talk) 19:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK, then. John40332 is indefinitely blocked from article space. The editor is free to make well-referenced, formal edit requests on article talk pages. The editor is warned that continuing to attempt to add links to Sheet Music X may lead to a sitewide block. The editor is advised to read the Guide to appealing blocks. Cullen328 (talk) 19:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- So CurryTime can throw random accusations until something sticks? John40332 (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, John40332, you are wrong about the lack of consensus, and there is clear consensus against you linking to that commercial sheet music sales site. So, either you agree to stop doing so, or you get subjected to formal sanctions. Which will it be? Cullen328 (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Vofa and removal of sourced information
NO ACTION AT THIS TIME Participants reminded to attempt communicating with other editors before reporting their behaviour to ANI. asilvering (talk) 21:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This seems to be an ongoing issue.
Vofa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has lots of warnings about disruptive editing in their user page and a block.
Most recent example of removal of sourced information:
I checked the source and the information is there on page 7.
Previous examples include: . Also see: Talk:Finns#Vandalism_by_user:Vofa Bogazicili (talk) 16:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, I just noticed that there is indeed an unsourced paragraph.
- The reason for removal of sourced information would then be "removed text not relevant to Chagatai Khanate and Golden Horde in introduction". However the source does mention
The first of the changes leading to the formation of the Turco-Mongolian tradition ...
and then gives Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate as examples. I don't see any WP:V or WP:DUE issues. - I am concerned about removal of sourced information that does not seem to have a rationale based on Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines Bogazicili (talk) 16:41, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi there. The matter seems to be resolved. I did remove an unsourced paragraph and general claims not relevant to the introduction. I do not see a problem with it. You seem to have linked three edits I made. In the first edit, I had to revert because I accidentally chose the minor edit option. In the second edit, I have restored the previous version, but without a minor sign. I did not remove any sources (based on what I remember) I hope to see through my edits and understand what I did or did not do wrong. Please, avoid making an ANI in bad faith. Vofa (talk) 03:06, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- You removed source information. The part that starts with
The ruling Mongol elites ...
- @Asilvering: from the editor's talk page, you seem to be a mentor. Removing sources or sourced material without explanation, or with insufficient explanation or rationale, such as "Polished language" , is an ongoing concern with Vofa. Bogazicili (talk) 15:12, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Im not sure why I’m being stalked, but the edits you’re showing as examples of myself removing sources are more than two months old. I’ve stopped removing sources. Vofa (talk) 19:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Asilvering: This issue is still continuing Bogazicili (talk) 15:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- And you previously spoke to Vofa about this where...? -- asilvering (talk) 19:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- asilvering, I hadn't talked about removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale.
- I did talk about this however . See: User_talk:Vofa#December_2024
- I don't seek or expect a permanent block over this. But as a mentor and an administrator, maybe you can comment on removing sourced material without sufficiently explaining the rationale. Bogazicili (talk) 19:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Bogazicili, that's a threat, not an explanation. If you have a content dispute with an editor, which is what this appears to be, you need to be able to talk it out with them on the article's Talk page. @Vofa, please be careful to make sure your edit summaries explain what you're doing. I see that there was an unsourced statement in the link Bogazicili just supplied, so I presume that's what you meant by "unsourced". But the other statement you removed did have a source. It's ok to split your edits up into multiple edits if you need to do that to explain them properly, but you could also just give an edit summary like "removed unsourced; also, removed statement " that addresses both changes. -- asilvering (talk) 23:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Asilvering, I would not characterize this as a "content dispute". I was not involved in most of those articles. I got concerned after seeing edits market as minor removing sources or sourced material without any or proper explanation. That is not a content dispute, that is an editor conduct dispute. Bogazicili (talk) 07:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- What Vofa does at articles related to Turko-Mongolian history is not a content dispute but vandalism. It took me a lot of time to manually revert the hoax years and figures he added in Turkmens article to decrease their population and he also removed sourced basic info from the lede of the Merkit tribe which I had to restore. These are just some of few sneaky vandalism examples that I caught among the pages I patrol by Vofa. If you see his talk page, he has been warned a lot of times by many other editors for such mischief. Theofunny (talk) 07:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Theofunny, Vofa hasn't edited the Turkmens article since before they were blocked. That is obviously not an ongoing issue. As for Merkit, I also see no discussion of those edits. If you have a problem with how someone is editing, you need to communicate with them. -- asilvering (talk) 08:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Asilvering, my concerns were removal of sourced information or sources without proper rationale or explanation. Do you think that was communicated enough to Vofa in this topic, or do we need further communication? I'm asking in case Vofa continues this type of behavior. Hopefully that won't be the case. Bogazicili (talk) 08:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Im going to repeat this again;
- I have not removed any sources since I was warned about it.
- I do not see an issue with my recent editing.
- You should communicate with me on any issues that you have with me. Vofa (talk) 11:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vofa, do you see any issues with this edit: Bogazicili (talk) 11:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you implying if I see an issue with this edit of mine or with your removal of said edit? Vofa (talk) 15:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vofa, the former. I am asking if you see any issues yourself with your own linked edit. Bogazicili (talk) 17:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do not see an issue with the linked edit of mine. Vofa (talk) 19:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed, really the issue was Bogazicili's, and it has now been solved in the usual way (by restoring only the sourced content). Apologies, @Vofa, for misreading it earlier. -- asilvering (talk) 19:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Asilvering, I disagree. I did miss the unsourced paragraph. However, removal of sourced content has been an ongoing issue with Vofa. They should not have removed sourced content to begin with.
- There was also a previous discussion in ANI:
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1170#User:Vofa
- Asilvering, again, is the threshold of communication met if removing sourced content by Vofa persists in the future? Bogazicili (talk) 19:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basically, I'm not trying to get Vofa blocked, but they should be more careful in future when they remove sources or sourced content. They should have a reasonable rationale based in Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines, and they should explain that rationale properly. Bogazicili (talk) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed they should. And you should not restore unsourced content once it has been removed. -- asilvering (talk) 20:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- asilvering, the difference is I already acknowledged it multiple times. Is that not obvious? Bogazicili (talk) 21:40, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Bogazicili, I'm going to close this report. No administrative action is required here at this time. You should make a habit of communicating on the article talk page when you get into a conflict with another editor, but you should always try to communicate with other editors before coming to ANI about their behaviour. This should be your last resort. If you make an earnest effort to communicate and are ignored, by all means report here. If there is edit-warring or obvious vandalism involved, please take that to the relevant noticeboard. -- asilvering (talk) 21:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- asilvering, the difference is I already acknowledged it multiple times. Is that not obvious? Bogazicili (talk) 21:40, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed they should. And you should not restore unsourced content once it has been removed. -- asilvering (talk) 20:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basically, I'm not trying to get Vofa blocked, but they should be more careful in future when they remove sources or sourced content. They should have a reasonable rationale based in Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines, and they should explain that rationale properly. Bogazicili (talk) 19:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do not see an issue with the linked edit of mine. Vofa (talk) 19:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vofa, the former. I am asking if you see any issues yourself with your own linked edit. Bogazicili (talk) 17:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you implying if I see an issue with this edit of mine or with your removal of said edit? Vofa (talk) 15:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vofa, do you see any issues with this edit: Bogazicili (talk) 11:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you. Vofa (talk) 11:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Asilvering, my concerns were removal of sourced information or sources without proper rationale or explanation. Do you think that was communicated enough to Vofa in this topic, or do we need further communication? I'm asking in case Vofa continues this type of behavior. Hopefully that won't be the case. Bogazicili (talk) 08:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Theofunny, Vofa hasn't edited the Turkmens article since before they were blocked. That is obviously not an ongoing issue. As for Merkit, I also see no discussion of those edits. If you have a problem with how someone is editing, you need to communicate with them. -- asilvering (talk) 08:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- This member often vandalises, in an article about Oirats he wrote huge numbers without backing them up with sources and tried to prove it was true. This is rabid vandalism. Incall 12:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Incall, vandalism has a specific meaning on Misplaced Pages; an edit being unsourced does not mean it was vandalism. Do not cast aspersions on other editors in this way. @Vofa, you are edit-warring on Oirats. You need to stop doing that immediately. -- asilvering (talk) 19:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have not edited Oirats. I have stopped edit warring. Vofa (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Incall, vandalism has a specific meaning on Misplaced Pages; an edit being unsourced does not mean it was vandalism. Do not cast aspersions on other editors in this way. @Vofa, you are edit-warring on Oirats. You need to stop doing that immediately. -- asilvering (talk) 19:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Bogazicili, that's a threat, not an explanation. If you have a content dispute with an editor, which is what this appears to be, you need to be able to talk it out with them on the article's Talk page. @Vofa, please be careful to make sure your edit summaries explain what you're doing. I see that there was an unsourced statement in the link Bogazicili just supplied, so I presume that's what you meant by "unsourced". But the other statement you removed did have a source. It's ok to split your edits up into multiple edits if you need to do that to explain them properly, but you could also just give an edit summary like "removed unsourced; also, removed statement " that addresses both changes. -- asilvering (talk) 23:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- And you previously spoke to Vofa about this where...? -- asilvering (talk) 19:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- You removed source information. The part that starts with
- Hi there. The matter seems to be resolved. I did remove an unsourced paragraph and general claims not relevant to the introduction. I do not see a problem with it. You seem to have linked three edits I made. In the first edit, I had to revert because I accidentally chose the minor edit option. In the second edit, I have restored the previous version, but without a minor sign. I did not remove any sources (based on what I remember) I hope to see through my edits and understand what I did or did not do wrong. Please, avoid making an ANI in bad faith. Vofa (talk) 03:06, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
Incivility and ABF in contentious topics
Hob Gadling's uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it is problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:
Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883
WP:NPA
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324
Profanity
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966
Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877
Unicivil
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441
Contact on user page attempted
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795
Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Think this calls for a fierce trout slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a forced wikibreak according to WP:COOLDOWN, as this is just an angry user and frankly, I don't see direct personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as
some diffs from the past few days
are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. BarntToust 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)- Would I be the person to provide you with that
further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions
? I did think that it would be more than a WP:FISHSLAP, since that's forone-off instances of seemingly silly behavior
and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern warning. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Would I be the person to provide you with that
- @Lardlegwarmers: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. Hob should know better, and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to WP:AVOIDEDITWAR. But I would caution you about WP:BOOMERANG and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your inappropriate recently deleted user page, removing sections from other people's talk page, and it seems like you're having a problem handling a WP:DISPUTE and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.
- Furthermore it does appear that you might be WP:FORUMSHOPPING because your attempts at WP:POVPUSH for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. passively accusing editor behavior, directly accusing a specific editor bad behavior, claiming WP is political, RSN Report #1, RSN Report #2 to push for an article edit request, bringing the Covid discussion over to the teahouse, and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding Misplaced Pages's policy and guidelines and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards WP:CONSENSUS. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. TiggerJay (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. (
All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.
]) Thank you for your time and input. - Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here:
trying to report other editors in bad faith
. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. (
@Lardlegwarmers: Jay brought something to my attention with a recent version of your user page. It looks like there is large language model (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason! I'm confused. This specific revision also assumes bad faith about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.
I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, since you are here at ANI now, what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT, in your own words. BarntToust 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @Thebiguglyalien, I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a formal warning or a trout slap is what needs to happen to Hob. BarntToust 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @IntrepidContributor, I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. please look at this diff on Lardle's user page for context, in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. BarntToust 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks! *curtsy* Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- ...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". GiantSnowman 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- ...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' here? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word bullshit, which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, this supposed "disparag of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills" seems pretty temperate. And so on. Bishonen | tålk 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
- I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at this user page discussion where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - Palpable (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Hob Gadling failing to yield to WP:BLPRESTORE, apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. SmolBrane (talk) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Propose serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Recuse
Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. SmolBrane (talk) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Recuse
- Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to BarntToust above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a note, Hob Gadling removed the ANI notice without comment and has not responded here. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. BarntToust 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- This comment is actually more of a personal attack then any of the diffs provided originally. Smartass, like a teenager, pissy, lalaland? That's some ageism, maybe commenting on mental health, and some silly insults. I don't think you should see any sanctions for this, but hopefully you compare your comments to the diffs. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 22:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
| Extended discussion |
|---|
|
It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing WP:FRINGE misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as here, and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as here. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. Silverseren 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!)
bullshit
to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that that was what led Lardlewarmers to try and their target on their talk page, a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward WP:BOOMERANG situation. --Aquillion (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "turn over a new leaf" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to tell people to stop before it's too late and stop treating aggressive or uncivil behavior as a "lesser" crime. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a chronic and ongoing habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!)
- I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Silver_seren-20241231185800-Slatersteven-20241230182700) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type. As the Alien above said, you
Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning.
now WP:DROPTHESTICK. TiggerJay (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to Misplaced Pages:Civility, the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the fallacies contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ad hominem, as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person (Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250103194100-Hob Gadling-20250102085800). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record I do agree with you that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been bating you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, rather we depend on WP:RS and WP:UNDUE to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to
steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person
. However, that is not what I read in that reply. Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! TiggerJay (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250105151700-Credibility_of_major_scientific_journals_on_Covid) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. TiggerJay (talk) 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250105151700-Credibility_of_major_scientific_journals_on_Covid) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the record I do agree with you that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been bating you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, rather we depend on WP:RS and WP:UNDUE to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to
- No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to Misplaced Pages:Civility, the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the fallacies contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ad hominem, as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person (Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250103194100-Hob Gadling-20250102085800). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type. As the Alien above said, you
Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a lesser offense
. Simonm223 (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. Simonm223 (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you are describing is a different idea: the COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy theory. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus.
the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ]
The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.
(]) Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Beyond what @Objective3000 said, for all parties, it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil WP:BRINE. TiggerJay (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should not be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Beyond what @Objective3000 said, for all parties, it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil WP:BRINE. TiggerJay (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from WP:FTNCIVIL or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - Palpable (talk) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am in the diffs.
- I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - Palpable (talk) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above:
Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.
] Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above:
- They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you are describing is a different idea: the COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy theory. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus.
- It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. Simonm223 (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
| Extended discussion |
|---|
|
- Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400
Send to AE?
Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to WP:AE since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".
- That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - Palpable (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The IP made no such claim? - The Bushranger One ping only 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - Palpable (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The IP made no such claim? - The Bushranger One ping only 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. Zaathras (talk) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why wp:Being right is not enough is policy.
- Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. User:Barkeep49/Friends don't let friends get sanctioned. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. SmolBrane (talk) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I second to motion to bring this to WP:AE. BarntToust 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit warring to prevent an RFC
@Axad12 has removed an RFC tag from Talk:Breyers#Request for comment on propylene glycol now twice within an hour.
Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Reasons and ways to end RfCs provides a list of circumstances under which you can stop an RFC started by someone else, and disagreeing with the question or wishing that it contained additional information is not in the list.
We have to be pretty strict about this, because an RFC is one of the few ways to attract the broader community's attention when there's an Misplaced Pages:Ownership of content problem or a Misplaced Pages:Walled garden that needs outside attention. The fact that an editor doesn't welcome outside attention sometimes indicates that there is a problem. I'm not saying that these things are happening in this case, but the rules have to be the rules for all RFCs, not just for the ones we agree with, because these things do happen in some cases. We can't really have opponents of an RFC question/proposal, no matter how well intentioned or how justified they think it is in this one case, unilaterally deciding that the rest of the community doesn't get to find out about the dispute.
I wouldn't bother with this here, except that it's already past my bedtime, so I need someone else to handle this. The proper way forward is to run the RFC, and for the loyal opposition to take the advice about how to respond that they'll find in the first two questions of the Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/FAQ. See you tomorrow. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- As previously explained elsewhere, I removed the tag because my understanding is that the serious COI issues invalidate the RfC.
- I am perfectly happy to take instruction on that point if I am incorrect but the removals were undertaken in good faith.
- The idea that I should be reported to ANI for this just because it is past someone's bedtime (and they don't have time for talk page discussion) seems to me rather an over-reaction. Axad12 (talk) 08:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. Axad12 (talk) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, please do not tamper with the RFC. I have already commented there again based on my previous assessment five weeks ago, and I have absolutely no conflict of interest in this matter. In my opinion, you are taking too aggressive a stance on this issue. I happen to be an administrator but I am also involved with the dispute as an ordinary editor. Cullen328 (talk) 08:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, I'd strongly suggest you return the tag. WhatamIdoing, a {{trout}} for WP:GRENADEing. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for both of your advice. I will shortly replace the template.
- The COI issue does not relate to Cullen, it relates to another user entirely. I would be grateful for input on the underlying COI issue, which seems to me to have been an exceptionally serious abuse. Axad12 (talk) 09:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be falsely accused of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that
exceptionally serious abuse
? Cullen328 (talk) 09:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? A company quite reasonably does not want to be falsely accused of adulterating their edible product with antifreeze, based on what a fringe source wrote, and you consider that
- Indeed, I am perfectly happy to volunteer to replace the tag if an administrator indicates that that is the appropriate course of action. Axad12 (talk) 08:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, I'm referring to the series of events outlined here where a paid COI editor has a COI edit request turned down and then starts cultivating a co-operative project member to implement non-contentious COI edit requests before reintroducing the contentious COI edit request and immediately tipping off their repeatedly canvassed project member to implement that contentious request.
- I feel that that is an exceptionally serious abuse - clearly it is an attempt to distort the COI editing process by attempting to make sure that a previously co-operative project member deals with a resubmitted request rather than waiting for a random volunteer working out of the relevant queue (one of whom had previously declined the request).
- As I said above, I am quite happy to take instruction on this point - but personally I feel that what happened there was highly inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Cullen, my post directly above is clearly about a point of process rather than a point of content.
- Even if the original COI edit request was incorrectly declined that would not justify the paid COI editor attempting to game the system to get the request through at the second time of asking. Axad12 (talk) 09:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Asking a second time" is not WP:Gaming the system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. Axad12 (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't. Read the guideline instead of guessing about its contents from the WP:UPPERCASE. See, e.g., An editor gaming the system is seeking to use policy in bad faith, by finding within its wording some apparent justification for disruptive actions and stances that policy is clearly not at all intended to support. Asking an individual to help has nothing to do with finding wording in a policy to justifying disruptive actions or stances that are not intended in that policy.
- I also direct your attention to the item that says Gaming the system may include...Filibustering the consensus-building process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was using the phrase 'gaming the system' in it's natural application (not specifically referring to WP:GAMINGTHESYSTEM, which I didn't know existed until you linked to it above). Clearly the COI user was attempting to distort the COI edit request process in some way - whether one refers to what they were doing as 'gaming the system' or some other similar phrase is neither here nor there. Axad12 (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, but for a COI user to attempt to influence which user will deal with the second request does constitute gaming the system. Axad12 (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Asking a second time" is not WP:Gaming the system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also worth noting that ever since the original COI edit request back in August the clear talk page consensus has been that the material should remain within the article and is not
highly misleading
. - I've been part of that consensus position since approx October/November. Since that time the user who opened the RfC has repeatedly been opening new threads, continually trying to re-address a subject where they are repeatedly in the minority and presumably hoping that those who previously opposed them do not turn up to oppose them again. Axad12 (talk) 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- In other words, you want highly misleading content to remain in the article, just to make a point? Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe we should hold an RFC on whether the RFC tag should be there? Phil Bridger (talk) 09:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Right, I've had breakfast now so am in a position to make a more serious reply. This is a content issue (on which I hold, as yet, no opinion). On this page we often tell editors that the way to settle a content issue that hasn't been settled by more informal methods is by holding an RFC. Axad12, you should express your opinion as part of the RFC, not oppose holding it. By your behaviour you are turning people against you who might have supported you. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've already said that I'd be happy to replace the tag if instructed to do so, and upon being instructed to do so I immediately replaced it. As far as I can see that issue is now resolved.
- I've asked for comment on the underlying COI issue, which is not a content issue. Axad12 (talk) 11:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- RFCs can handle COI issues. In fact, when WP:COIN can't resolve a dispute, they sometimes host an RFC to settle it. The nice thing about an RFC in such situations is that if it closes with an outcome like "The consensus is stick it to these fully policy-compliant, completely disclosed paid editors by making sure that this article implies the company's product was adulterated with a poisonous industrial chemical, just because we found one fad diet book that used this language, because it's really unreasonable of them to not want sensationalist and derogatory information in our article about their product" then you can generally be sure that the result will stick for at least 6 months and usually longer.
- But you've got to get that consensus first, and I'm not sure you will. For one thing, it's been my not-inconsiderable experience that when someone objects to holding an RFC because the question is biased, that's a fairly reliable sign that they expect the RFC result to not match their preference. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My concern (rightly or wrongly) was simply that there was a COI element to the request which had not been disclosed. I swiftly requested clarification on that point and upon receiving that clarification I immediately reverted myself.
- It isn't really relevant here but actually I didn't expect the RfC to develop contrary to my preference. That was because the previous 4 months had indicated a consistent consensus opposing what the instigator of the RfC was proposing. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I don't actually have a particularly strong preference one way or the other on the issue at stake - I've simply consistently observed during November and December that the consensus was against Zefr, which seemed to me to be a simple matter of fact based on the various talk page threads from August to December. Axad12 (talk) 23:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- On matters concerning the Breyers article, Axad12 has been an uncollaborative, disruptive, and hostile editor tag-teamed with Graywalls, who is the main proponent over months of using the slur, "antifreeze", to describe a minor GRAS ingredient that is the subject of the current RfC. Both users have ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate for a factual, well-sourced article. Both users refused collaboration on the Breyers article content at DRN.
Having never contributed a sentence or source to the Breyers article, Axad12 has blatantly reverted simple, sourced edits claiming a false consensus which has no good source to support the propylene glycol/"antifreeze" claim and no evidence of consensus input by other editors over the last many weeks. An evolving consensus on the RfC is to exclude mention of propylene glycol as undue.
Scientific and legal literature concerning propylene glycol (article link) placed on the talk page have been ignored by both users, without attempts to discuss or apply what any objective editor reading the sources would agree are authoritative.
Proposal: Because of Axad12's hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC, tag-team behavior with Graywalls on the Breyers article edits, canvassing each other on its talk page, and here, as another example, Axad12 and Graywalls should be A-banned from the Breyers article and its talk page.
- Support. Zefr (talk) 21:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You need to notify Graywalls of this discussion. I have done so for you. In the future, remember to do so yourself. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose: I have reverted Zefr on 3 occasions on the Breyers article over the last few months. That was because the edits they had made were, at that time, contrary to talk page consensus. The fact that I had not contributed to the article is neither here nor there in that regard.
- I have not
ignored requests on the talk page to collaborate
, I have simply objected to Zefr's repeated attempts over a 3 month period to re-open a discussion where the consensus has always been against them. - Six different users have previously objected to the changes Zefr has been trying to make and that was clearly a majority of those who commented between August and December 2024.
- I accept that the current RfC is going Zefr's way, however that fact should not be used to reinterpret events over the last 4 months where Zefr has historically been in a small minority insufficient to claim a consensus in favour of the changes they wished to make.
- Also, the idea that I made a
hostile attempt to revert a legitimate RfC
is untrue. As I have pointed out above, my actions were in good faith and it can be seen that I immediately volunteered to revert my removal of the template if I received instruction from an admin to that effect. - I cannot see that I was ever canvassed to appear at the Breyers talk page, I arrived there entirely independently back in November having been aware of the ongoing situation re: the various COI edit requests because the COI edit request queue is the volunteer queue that I spend most of my time here working from. I've probably read pretty much every COI edit request that has been made on Misplaced Pages over the last 6 to 12 months and there are a small number of talk pages that I look at from time to time.
- Graywalls and I work on similar cases and sometimes we find ourselves working alongside each other, especially if material has been discussed at WP:COIN, but occasionally ending up in the same place and on the same side of an argument does not entail tagteaming. Axad12 (talk) 22:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I was the one who suggested RfC in the first place. here, because I felt it was not a productive disagreement anymore. Leading up to the RfC, there was rough talk page consensus to include a mention pf propylene glycol, but if consensus in RfC determines that it should be left out, I have no intention of fighting it. Someone raised a concern there was only one source, so I added another source. Other than this, I've not really touched contentious parts of this article recently. I'm not sure why Axad12 removed the RfC and I can't speak for their actions, but the accusation of Tagteam is unwarranted. I've taken deferent steps to not continue to engage in back and forth edit warring and I'd like to believe that I'm approaching this the correct way. I do want to bring up concerns about Zefr's civility though. Please see User_talk:DMacks#Breyers_disruptive_editing for some concerns I raised. I also find leaving snarky comment about being a PhD student who disagreed on contents troubling Special:Diff/1261441062. @Aoidh: also felt Zefr was "weaponing" claims of edit warring to restore their "preferred version" earlier on in the dispute. Please see Special:Diff/1257252695 Graywalls (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd just like to echo that sentiment. I'm all in favour of consensus.
- My position on this article hasn't been motivated by a partisan view on Propylene Glycol but has simply been in relation to serving the consensus position as it stood at the time. That is the approach I hope I adopt on all Misplaced Pages articles. If the consensus alters on this article (as seems likely) then I'll adopt the same approach in relation to serving the new consensus.
- My primary area of interest on this website is COI issues. I'm simply not interested in content disputes or in pushing any kind of POV on Misplaced Pages. I'm not the sort of user who flagrantly disregards a newly emerging consensus by editing contrary to the outcome of an RfC.
- I'd welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that going forwards (i.e. without an article ban). Axad12 (talk) 06:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- The mention by Graywalls for an RfC on 27 Dec had no influence on the one existing. As an uncomplicated process, an editor truly sincere in having community input would have posed a simple objective question. Graywalls, why didn't you take 5 minutes and create the RfC question you wanted? What would have been your RfC question?
- Specifically for propylene glycol (you are still defending its use in the article by adding another garbage source yesterday - see comments about this book in the RfC):
what do you believe propylene glycol does in a frozen dessert and what would you prefer the article to say about propylene glycol? I have asked for this clarification on the talk page many times and in the DRN, but you ignored the opportunity to collaborate and clarify.
- Have you read the sources in this talk page topic?
- Your reverts in article history and combative talk page behavior over months revealed a persistent intent to disparage the Breyers article, focus on the "antifreeze" slur (mainly promoting this source), and restore a skeletal version having no sources more recent than 2018 here, after tag-teaming with Axad12 to do your bidding on 17 Nov. That version also has misinformation under the section 'Ice cream', falsely stating that Breyers changed their ice cream ingredients by using other additives, which in fact, were used to evolve a new category of frozen desserts not intended to be ice cream. I believe you know this, but you and Axad12 persisted to favor misinformation for the article.
- The RfC I provided came from steps in the lead of WP:RFC: 1) generally poor talk page progress, where one editor seeking facts verified by current sources was opposed by Graywalls, Adax12, and NutmegCoffeeTea, all defending a version including "antifreeze"; 2) an RSN post here where Graywalls argued that a web link by the Seattle PI made the Motley Fool article an RS; 3) initiate DRN for which Graywalls, Axad12, and NutmegCoffeeTea abstained from collaboration to improve the article; 4) providing a science- and law-based talk page topic on 19 Dec, which appears to be willfully ignored by Axad12 and Graywalls, who responded only with hostility and defiance against the facts; 5) seeking third opinions from admins, first by BD2412 (talk page on 29-30 Nov) and by DMacks on 27 Dec, resulting in verbose trolling by these two users. Axad12's response on 27 Dec was to revert constructive edits and tag-team with Graywalls.
- Axad12 and Graywalls should be ABANNED from the Breyers article for exhibiting 1) hostility on the talk page to good faith proposals for making the article better, and 2) persistence to perpetuate misinformation on propylene glycol. Simply, what history shows that either editor has tried to improve the Breyers article? Both users meet most of the definitions of WP:NOTHERE for the article, its talk page, and the RfC. Zefr (talk) 18:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Zefr, I've already indicated on several occasions that I welcome and support the developing new consensus. Graywalls has made a similar comment below. That being the case, I don't really see what purpose an article ban would be intended to serve.
- Admittedly there has been some quite heated disagreement over recent months, but it seems that we all now have the robust talkpage consensus that we were hoping for in one way or another and that all three of us are happy to move forward in support of that consensus.
- You were clearly in the minority for quite a long time and I can appreciate that you found that experience frustrating. However, to continue to make allegations above of bad faith, trolling, tagteaming, etc. about those who constituted the valid majority for several months is just an attempt to perpetuate strife on an issue which is now, as far as I can see, satisfactorily resolved. Axad12 (talk) 19:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Graywalls, I think you were correct to recommend an RFC. Hopefully the RFC will reach a consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Filed under: sometimes you hurt articles by treating COI editors as the enemy. The problem here is two users who should really know better edit-warring over the course of months to reinstate TikTok diet influencer silliness into a Misplaced Pages article, repeatedly reinstating WP:PROFRINGE content (implicitly, if not explicitly). We currently treat a little "avoid antifreeze" bubble in a diet book (which includes Breyers in a list of brands) and a book published by one of RFK Jr's antivax publishers as WP:DUE for including the insinuation that an FDA-approved and much-conspiratorialized additive is harmful. They've been repeatedly removed, but two editors keep putting them back, whether because of a misunderstanding of WP:MEDRS/WP:FRINGE or in pursuit of COI purification. — Rhododendrites \\ 13:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I take your point but I think you're misjudging the situation somewhat. Prior to the opening of the current RfC it was approximately 6 or 7 users in favour of inclusion vs 3 or 4 favouring exclusion. I only reverted the attempts at exclusion because those attempts were contrary to the talk page consensus.
- I'm perfectly open to the suggestion that that consensus position was wrong but the simple fact of the matter was that there was at that time no consensus in favour of exclusion.
- It has only been in the last couple of days that the requesting editor has been able to demonstrate a consensus in favour of exclusion. And that's great, I have no problem with that at all. In fact I welcome it.
- My understanding is that editors wishing to make changes to article text should not do so if there is a consensus against what they are trying to do, and that under such circumstances an edit can be (indeed should be) reverted. If I'm mistaken on that score then I'm perfectly happy to take instruction. However, I really want to stress that my actions were based primarily upon that reasoning and were made in good faith. Axad12 (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Axad12, you should not revert something because other editors want it to be reverted. You should only make content changes that you personally support. This is necessary for BRD to work. See WP:BRDREVERT for an explanation of why. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rhododendrites:, the antifreeze matter is WP:DEADHORSE since I believe everyone's pretty much agreed it doesn't need to be in there. Zefr has taken issues with me, Axad12, NutMegCoffee and possibly some others. They've tried to get the article "set in place" to their preferred version, but that was declined admin Daniel Case who determined it to be content dispute Special:Diff/1260192461. Zefr inferring alleging I was
"uncooperative"not collaborating/cooperating in the way that he was hoping in DR, but I don't believe that to be so. There was nothing intentional on my part to not cooperate. I'll see if @Robert McClenon: would like to share their observation on that since they closed the dispute. - https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Breyers/Archive_2#c-Rusalkii-20240814014600-Inkian_Jason-20240801145900 here's another uninvolved editoring erring on the side of inclusion. A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus. Reading through the current plus the archived discussions, up until the RfC, the general consensus is in support of having PG mention and Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus. As I mentioned, if consensus changes with the RfC, I'm not opposed to going with that. Graywalls (talk) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC) (adjusted Graywalls (talk) 13:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC))
- For the record, I never stated the word "uncooperative" at DRN or the Breyers talk page, but rather "non-collaborative", as discussed in the thread with Robert McClenon below.
- "Set in place to their preferred version" and "Zefr's preferred version shouldn't trump consensus" should be translated to using "facts verified by reliable sources", which is the simple goal for the Breyers article that Graywalls has obstructed over months.
- It's incredible that Graywalls says even today above, knowing the comments on the RfC and months of being presented with facts and sources about why propylene glycol is safely used in thousands of manufactured foods: "A one sentence mention of propylene glycol isn't something that is out of line and as others have mentioned, it falls under contents dispute and thus the choice to leave in/out rests on consensus."
- Here's your chance to tell everyone:
- Why do you feel propylene glycol was used in Breyers frozen desserts (in 2013, not since)? What concern do you have about it, and what government or scientific source says it's unsafe in the amounts regulated by federal laws? Give a sentence here that you think meets consensus and uses a reliable source. Zefr (talk) 01:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're right, you did not use that specific word. I've corrected my response due to wording. Graywalls (talk) 13:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
A Non-Mediator's Statement
I am not entirely sure why User:Graywalls has pinged me about this dispute, saying that I "closed this dispute". The accuracy of the statement that I "closed this dispute" depends on what is meant by "this dispute".
I closed the DRN thread, Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_252#Breyers, on 12 December. I obviously didn't resolve a dispute that has been continuing for another three weeks, and the claim that I closed the dispute looks to me like an attempt to confuse the jury. User:Zefr had opened the DRN thread on 3 December, complaining about the insertion of the word antifreeze and of the mention of propylene glycol. I was not entirely sure beyond the mention of antifreeze what the issues were. There were questions about what the procedure was for handling a one-against-many dispute; I think that Zefr was said to be the one. There was a long question that may have been about whether DRN is voluntary; DRN is voluntary. Then Zefr said that the case could be withdrawn because no one else was commenting. The disputants other than Zefr never did say exactly what the article content issues were, perhaps because they didn't want to discuss article content, and were not required to discuss article content. If anyone is implying that I resolved or settled anything, I have no idea what it was.
I see that the dispute either was continuing in other forums for three weeks, or has reopened. I see that User:Axad12 edit-warred to prevent an RFC from running, making vague but noisy statements about conflict of interest. I don't know who is said to be working for Unilever or for anyone else. It is clear that this dispute is longer on antagonism than on clarity. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon:, I pinged you, because I felt you'd be a good commentator to evaluate whether you also felt I was "not cooperative" in the process as Zefr says. I tried to participate, but it got closed shortly after I posted a comment in it. Graywalls (talk) 22:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Was that purposely mis-stated to be provocative and mislead the discussion here?
- I said you were non-collaborative, which describes your behavior throughout your editing history on the Breyers article, its talk page, and the DRN. You refused collaboration at DRN, which is the whole point of the process. DRN FAQ: "refusing participation can be perceived as a refusal to collaborate, and is not conducive to consensus-building."
- You were notified about the DRN on your talk page on 3 Dec, and you posted a general notice about it on the Breyers talk page on 6 Dec, so you were aware of the process, but ignored it. Meanwhile, your editing history over 6-12 Dec shows dozens of edits, including many on the Breyers talk page.
- You made no attempt to collaborate at DRN, posting only one off-topic comment on 12 Dec.
- I requested closure of the DRN on 12 Dec due to non-participation by you and the others. On 13 Dec, I notified the Breyers talk page of the DRN closure. cc: Robert McClenon. Zefr (talk) 00:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
A Possibly Requested Detail
Okay. If the question is specifically whether User:Graywalls was uncooperative at DRN, then I can state that they were not uncooperative and did not obstruct or disrupt DRN. Graywalls took very little part in the DRN proceeding before I closed it. They were not required to take part, although they say that they would have made a statement if the case had stayed open a little longer. The antagonism that I saw was between User:Zefr and User:Axad12, and I collapsed an exchange between them. I did not read what I am told were long previous discussions, because I expect the disputants at DRN to begin by telling me concisely what each of them wants to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Graywalls was not uncooperative at DRN. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. User:Zefr is making a slightly different statement, that User:Graywalls did not collaborate at DRN. That is correct. And I noted above that their mention that I had closed the dispute depended on what was meant by the "dispute". and looked like an attempt to confuse the jury. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon Zefr did not use the word uncooperative although did say uncollaborative and I used the two interchangeably in my ping. I did participate in it Special:Diff/1262763079. I haven't participated in DRN until that point, so I wasn't really sure how it worked. Graywalls (talk) 13:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
The actual content that led to this dispute
Two month ago, Breyers included this shockingly bad content: As of 2014, some flavors of Breyer's ice cream contains propylene glycol as an additive. Propylene glycol is a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze and it is clear fluid made by "treating propylene with chlorinated water to form the chlorohydrin, which is then converted to the glycol, an alcohol, by treating it with a sodium carbonate solution." Propylene glycol is formulated into Breyer's fat-free and Carb Smart ice cream to make it easier to scoop.
The notion that an article about an ice cream company should include a detailed description of how a Generally recognized as safe food additive is manufactured is bizarre enough, as is the cherrypicked and glaringly misleading assertion about "antifreeze", but the reference used to support the Breyers claim was a book called Eat It to Beat It!: Banish Belly Fat-and Take Back Your Health-While Eating the Brand-Name Foods You Love! written by a quack/crank diet profiteer named David Zinczenko. I invite any editor to take a search engine look at Zinczenko's body of work, and come away with the conclusion that his writings are anything other than fringe and unreliable. Despite the glaringly obviously non-neutral and tendentious problems with this shockingly bad content, editors including most prominently Graywalls and Axad12 dug in their heels, fighting a reargard action for nearly two months, determined to make this mundane routine ice cream company look as bad as possible. Their self-justification seems to be that big bad corporations have no right whatsover to try to remove atrociously bad content about their products from Misplaced Pages, and that any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association. I am not an advocate for corporations per se, but I am an advocate for corporations being treated neutrally like all other topics, rather with disdain and contempt, which was the case here, as I see it. I do not know what the best outcome is here, but I certainly encourage these two editors to refrain from any other unjustified and poorly referenced anti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end. Cullen328 (talk) 07:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- A striking and shocking aspect of this sordid situation is that two editors, Graywalls and Axad12 were able to concoct a false "consensus" supporting various versions of this garbage content. And then when another editor tried to start a RFC about the appallingly bad content, Axad12 tried over and over and over again to stop the RFC and defend the atrocious content rather than correcting it, aided and abetted by Graywalls. When the RFC actually went live, it soon became clear that many editors agreed that the content these two editors advocated for was utterly inappropriate. Cullen328 (talk) 08:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Cullen,
- As per my comments above, my motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time. I did not
concoct
that consensus, at least 5 users other than me were against excluding the material. - I have never had any particularly strong opinion one way or the other on the content issue and I try as best as I can not to get involved in content disputes. I have not
dug in heels
or attempted to promote any kind of fringe opinion and nor have I engaged inanti-corporate diatribes that go on for months on end
. - Similarly I do not hold the view that
any editor who tries to assist the evil corporation is also evil by association
, or any opinion even vaguely resembling that view. On the contrary, I have often implemented COI edit requests on behalf of corporations or have pointed out to corporate employees how such requests would need to be amended to conform with sourcing or other requirements. Repeatedly engaging in that activity would presumably make me veryevil
indeed, in my own eyes, if I held the view that you attribute to me. - I reverted the Breyer edits in good faith because there was no consensus in favour of them. If I was incorrect on a point of policy in that regard then fair enough, however please do not attempt to attribute to me sentiments which I do not harbour.
- Also, I did not attempt to stop the RfC
over and over and over again
. I removed the tag twice, then requested guidance from administrators and immediately replaced the tag when requested to do so. The tag was removed, in all, for a matter of minutes and had no meaningful impact on the progress of the RfC. I have accepted elsewhere that I now appreciate that the basis on which I removed the tag was inappropriate. I have also stated thatFrom my standpoint wasn't a process that I was familiar with - but I can see from the many excellent contributions here that this is the best way of resolving content disputes
. I have also stated that I welcome and support the new consensus. Axad12 (talk) 08:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , Axad12, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. Cullen328 (talk) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I
obviously dislike
Breyers or (their parent company) Unilever, or indeed that I consider either to beevil
? - To the best of my recollection, I've only ever made 3 mainspace edits to the Breyers article - each time on the stated basis in the edit summary that the edit I was reverting was contrary to consensus.
- I've re-read the extensive talk page discussions in recent days and I can only see that I ever commented on the COI angle and the nature of the consensus. Those comments were based on my understanding of policy at the time. I do not see
anti-corporate diatribes
or evidence that Iobviously dislike
Breyers or Unilever. - Indeed, I do not hold any particularly strong views on Breyers, Unilever or any other corporations. Axad12 (talk) 09:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said, Axad12, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to Talk: Breyers to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. Cullen328 (talk) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- My activity on that talk page has solely been in relation to pointing out what I felt (rightly or wrongly) was a valid COI concern and observing that from Aug to Dec there has never been a consensus in favour of exclusion.
- Anything beyond that is simply you attributing motives that do not exist.
- I have never stated or implied that
a corporation does not deserve neutrality
and nor do I hold such a view. - I happily admit that I'm quite animated and enthusiastic about COI issues and reverting edits which appear to be contrary to consensus. With the benefit of hindsight probably I should have let go of those issues at an earlier stage and vacated the field for those who actually had an appetite to argue on content grounds.
- I'd also point out that for a significant part of the last 2 months I had actually unsubscribed from the relevant talkpage threads and only ended up getting involved again due to being summoned to the Dispute Resolution thread. If I had been
determined over the last two months to maintain various versions of biased non-neutral content
then hopefully it stands to reason that I would not have unsubscribed in that way - thus resulting in a situation where I was actually completely unaware of much of the talkpage and mainspace activity over the period that you refer to. Axad12 (talk) 10:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your
motivation was simply in reflecting the consensus on the talk page at the time
. You are also obligated to actually look at the disputed content and the sources supporting it. Why didn't you do that? Why were you unable to see what multiple editors in the RfC are commenting about? You shouldn't just blindly revert content like that, without taking a look for yourself to see if the complaint about the disputed content has any merit, like it being reliably sourced and due for inclusion. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- That's a very fair question.
- The answer is that I was inclined to believe the opinions of editors much more experienced than myself who were against exclusion, particularly the editor who turned down the original COI edit request (whose work on COI edit requests I have the greatest of respect for).
- User Whatamidoing has already pointed out above that my error lay in accepting those users' opinions. I agree with Whatamidoing's observation there.
- I can only say that what I did was done in good faith based on my understanding of policy at the time. I now know where I erred (in several different ways) and I am glad to have received instruction in that regard.
- However, I really cannot accept the repeated suggestion that I vindictively masterminded a long anti-corporate campaign to keep bad material in an article. That suggestion is fundamentally not true. Axad12 (talk) 10:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I entirely accept that.
- For clarity, when I said
my understanding of policy at the time
I meant my understanding of policy at the time - I wasn't trying to suggest that the policy has changed since I made those edits. - What I am saying is that those edits were not made with malice, they were made because I accepted the opinions of other users more experienced than myself, opinions which I now know that I ought to have questioned. Axad12 (talk) 11:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said earlier in this thread, I am 100% supportive of the new consensus in favour of excluding the previously disputed material.
- Virtually all of my time on Misplaced Pages is spent at COIN and dealing with COI edit requests. I'm not the sort of user who spends their time edit warring over POV fringe material and generally being disruptive.
- So, the last thing I would ever do is attempt to reinstall material where a very robust consensus at RfC has indicated that it should be excluded.
- I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that I can be trusted in that regard. Axad12 (talk) 12:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, quite so. I have acknowledged my error in that regard in my first response to Isaidnoway, above, re: the very useful input I received from Whatamidoing. Axad12 (talk) 17:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad, if I read what you wrote correctly, and please correct me if I misunderstand: I will stay away from that article because I support the current consensus. My concern is what if consensus was to shift on that article? TiggerJay (talk) 17:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Apologies if my earlier response was unclear. My point was that I have absolutely no intention of edit warring over the previously disputed material (or any other material) so I don't see what purpose it would serve to ban me from the article.
- I have only ever made (to the best of my knowledge) 3 previous edits to the article (1 in November and 2 in December?). These were all on the basis of a misunderstanding on a point of policy which has been pointed out to me above and which I have happily acknowledged and accepted. The issue at stake was not that I harbour any partisan view in relation to the content dispute, it was that I edited to reflect the views of other editors whose opinions I respected on the matter in question.
- I do not see any reason for the community to anticipate that I would made a similar misunderstanding of policy going forwards.
- Hopefully this clarifies... Axad12 (talk) 17:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Judgement isn't about following consensus, it’s about making considered decisions. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You demonstrated poor judgement. Will you stay away from that article? — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Policy at the time, and the policy now, as it always has been, when you make an edit, you are responsible for that edit. So by reverting the content back into the article, you were then responsible for that edit, and also partly to blame for this garbage content being kept in the article when it clearly shouldn't have been. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find the defense of your actions very weak. You've said several times that your
- As I said, Axad12, all any uninvolved editor needs to do is review your 37 edits to Talk: Breyers to see how determined you have been over the last two months to maintain various versions of this biased non-neutral content, and how enthusiastic you have been in denouncing the various editors who have been calling for neutrality. Your consistent theme has been that a corporation does not deserve neutrality, because a bogus consensus has been conjured up. Cullen328 (talk) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you provide a diff there to indicate that I
- Try as you will to justify your participation in this debacle , Axad12, but any uninvolved editor can review the edit histories and see that you fought very hard, over and over again for months, to keep garbage content in the encyclopedia just to stick it to a corporation that you obviously dislike because they tried to correct egregious errors about their products. Cullen328 (talk) 08:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've been expecting something to happen around User:Axad12, whom I ran into several months ago during a dispute at COIN. What I noticed back in October was that Axad12 seemed to be clerking the noticeboard, making prosecutorial noises, and sometimes unsupported accusations (ex:
...the existence of COI seems quite clear...
1,...in relation to your undeclared conflict of interest...
2,As I said, the fact that there was a significant undeclared conflict of interest in relation to editing on Paralympic Australia-related articles was demonstrated some years ago.
3) towards what they thought of as COI editors (this was about whether User:Hawkeye7 had failed to adequately announce their conflict with Paralympic Australia, where they've been openly helping as a volunteer on our community's behalf for many years, and after they had just made an almost invisible contribution on the Signpost). I often find such clerking of noticeboards by relatively unseasoned users to be troublesome; Axad12 has 490 edits at COIN, about 12% of their total 3801 edits (but about a third of the roughly 1500 edits total on COIN since September). If you use a hammer all day, you might begin to think that all objects are potentially nails. BusterD (talk) 12:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin tried to close the thread and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. BusterD (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it would be a good idea for Axad12 to take a break from WP:COIN and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. BusterD (talk) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- In fairness, the overwhelming majority of my posts at COIN over the last year or so have been simple helpful contributions. The two matters discussed above were atypical and in both cases I've taken on board the advice I was given.
- If (per the figures above) I've been making about a third of all the contributions at COIN over that period then my behaviour would have been reported here long ago if I was either disruptive or incompetent.
- That said, I won't deny that I've been seriously considering retiring from Misplaced Pages over the last two months. The only reason I've not done so is because other users have specifically encouraged me to carry on because they value my work at COIN and on COI issues generally.
- All I can say is that what I have done, I have done in good faith and when I have occasionally erred I have learned lessons. I have acknowledged above that I've made mistakes and I'm grateful to those who have given me advice. Axad12 (talk) 15:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard is not the high achievement you might think it is. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. BusterD (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Buster, I know that we've had crossed words in the past so I'm grateful for your understanding and your measured response above. Yes, I deal with many bad faith users and yes it does wear on me sometimes.
- I don't claim any great expertise in COI matters but I do have the time to dedicate to the project and I've picked up a decent awareness of the methods that can be used to detect and prevent UPE/PROMO etc activity.
- I believe that in the past when I've been given advice on points of policy I've taken that advice on board and would hope to continue to do so in the future. Axad12 (talk) 17:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- This comment is not about you, but you might be interested in it: I've been thinking for years that a rotating duty system might be helpful. Of course we're all WP:VOLUNTEERS, but we might be less stressed, and get more representative results, if we each spent a week at ANI and a month at RSN and a week at CCI each year than if one editor spends all year at ANI and another spends all year at RSN (and nobody is at CCI – anyone who is looking for an opportunity to deal with really serious problems should please consider spending some time at Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations. The few regulars there will be so grateful, and who knows? You might find that you like it). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've been reported here now. Over stuff that's current, and applicable. In that matter, you seemed to believe your expertise in COI matters allows you to decide what constitutes a valid RFC. That seems like a problem to me. I'm providing evidence on related behavioral matters. Having made one third of all recent edits on a noticeboard is not the high achievement you might think it is. Stay or retire, but learn to better assume good faith here, even when dealing with COI contributors. Most accounts are fine. You've been working in a narrow area where you deal with many bad faith users. I can understand why that might wear on any editor. The proof will be if you can incorporate these valid complaints into your future action. BusterD (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Only so many ways to screw in a lightbulb. BusterD (talk) 15:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it would be a good idea for Axad12 to take a break from WP:COIN and associated matters and concentrate on other areas of Misplaced Pages for a few months. I was going to use a cliché here, but I see BusterD's already used it in the last sentence of the post before last, so won't. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Rereading the discussion this morning 90 days later, it reads worse than I made it sound above. An uninvolved admin tried to close the thread and chastised Axad12 in that close. The OP asked the thread closure be reversed, so the close comments were moved down to the end of the thread. BusterD (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do think that it's worth zooming out and looking at the article as a whole. Comparing the version from before the current rewrites started to the current version makes it obvious that the tone of the article has become vastly more promotional, with much more focus on glowy feel-good aspects that are only mentioned in lower-quality sources (the story about the original creator hand-churning it?) And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) to the weird
In 2013, Breyers introduced frozen desserts made with food additives (section above) that were intended to create smooth, low-calorie products. However, the new desserts evoked complaints by some consumers who were accustomed to the traditional "all-natural" Breyers ice cream.
, which 100% reads like marketing-speak (downplaying the reaction by making it sound like it's just that people loved the old version so much. In fact, the current version doesn't mention Breyer's cost-cutting measures at all, even though it's a massive aspect of coverage.) That doesn't necessarily justify the version above, but it's important to remember that this was originally a one-word mention in a larger list -Following similar practices by several of their competitors, Breyers' list of ingredients has expanded to include thickeners, low-cost sweeteners, food coloring and low-cost additives — including natural additives such as tara gum and carob bean gum; artificial additives such as maltodextrin and propylene glycol; and common artificially separated and extracted ingredients such as corn syrup, whey, and others
, the longstanding wording, is not unreasonable and doesn't really imply that there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol, just that it's an additive. I think the context of that larger shift to a much more promotional tone to the article is significant (and looking over talk, most of the actual dispute has focused on that.) --Aquillion (talk) 17:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the source being used doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was added back here as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, about this And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) – I don't know what other sources say, but the cited sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually WP:Directly support a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- (As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at Talk:Breyers instead of here.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, WhatamIdoing, and Isaidnoway: would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? Graywalls (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't mind, but my contribution to this thread is relatively minor. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, WhatamIdoing, and Isaidnoway: would you all mind if I copy over the thread, starting at Aquillion's "I do think that...." over to Breyer's talk? Graywalls (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- (As this is strictly a question of content, please consider replying at Talk:Breyers instead of here.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aquillion, about this And the context of the additive section has changed from emphasizing that it was cost-cutting (well-supported in the sources) – I don't know what other sources say, but the cited sources don't say that at all. The cited sources are both from Canadian dairy farmers' marketing associations, saying that their product is good and costs more than imported oils, but doesn't actually WP:Directly support a claim that Breyers uses imported oils, or that Breyers has done anything to cut their costs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree that the longstanding wording doesn't really imply there's anything particularly dangerous about propylene glycol. But the source being used doesn't even mention "maltodextrin and propylene glycol", that I can find, so those two particular additives were not even verifiable at the time. And then propylene glycol was removed, and when it was added back here as "a chemical commonly used in a car antifreeze", was really when this dispute seem to take a turn for the worse to keep this content in the article. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks, and a Diddly Question
I would like to thank User:Cullen328 for providing the background and content information. I also have a possibly minor question for User:Axad12. They edit-warred to try to stop the RFC on the content, and said that there was an exceptionally serious abuse
of the conflict of interest process. I may not have done enough background research, but I don't see where they have identified who has been the paid editor or undisclosed paid editor, or what the conflict of interest content is. If there has been paid editing, who has done it, and have they been dealt with? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, probably the best single overview of the COI issue is given in this post .
- My impression at the time of the events, and subsequently, was that the activity was designed to distort the COI edit request process. I still feel that what happened re: the COI edit requests was irregular but I note that no other user seems to have supported me in that regard so I've not taken the matter any further. Similarly, while I felt that those events had a bearing on the RfC I now accept that the RfC relates solely to the content matter specifically under discussion. Axad12 (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find your characterization of events inaccurate. You stated "we have the resubmission of the request to remove the disputed material in a COI edit request thread here "
- But this was not a resubmission. The original COI request was to remove a list of ingredients (including propylene glycol) which was sourced to a blog and which the COI editor says is outdated and doesn't reflect current ingredients. Meanwhile, the link you give as an example of "resubmission" was the COI editor requesting the removal of "the recent content addition related to propylene glycol". Both requests involve propylene glycol, but they are clearly separate requests concerning separate content.
- We want COI editors to propose changes to talk pages. The fact that this COI editor, apparently frustrated by a lack of responses to their requests went to the Food and Drink Wikiproject to request someone look at their edits, and then went to an active participant of said Wikiproject and requested they look at their requests, is not suspicious or abnormal. And I think it's highly inappropriate how Axad12 argued at length on the talk page that User:Zefr was "cultivated" by the COI editor "to do their bidding". I support other editors in recommending Axad12 take a break from COI issues. Photos of Japan (talk) 00:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd just like to stress here that I only linked to my post above because Robert McClenon asked for the background to the COI element. I was not trying to re-open that issue or to request that any action be taken on that issue. I have already accepted that there is absolutely no support for the position I adopted there. Axad12 (talk) 04:00, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- This doesn't answer my question. The link is to a conversation between User:Axad12, User:Graywalls, and administrator User:DMacks. The links from that conversation show that there is antagonism between Axad12 and Graywalls on the one hand and User:Zefr on the other hand. They show that there is discussion of conflict of interest, but they show no direct evidence of conflict of interest editing by any editor. They don't answer who is said to be a paid editor making edit requests, aside from the fact that paid editors are supposed to make edit requests rather than editing directly, so I am still not sure what the issue is. I haven't seen any evidence of abuse, let alone of
exceptionally serious abuse
that warranted edit-warring to prevent an RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- The paid editor is User:Inkian Jason who is open and transparent about their COI. The edit request which began this episode was when Inkian Jason began this discussion where they pinged User:Zefr about having uploaded a photo of the company's logo and asking if they would be willing to add it to the article. Secondary to that they also asked about the appropriateness of the recently added propylene glycol content. The COI issues centered around whether Inkian Jason "cultivated" Zefr by pinging him to remove the added propylene glycol text after they had previously requested the deletion of a sentence about the various ingredients used in the ice cream (which included propylene glycol). Photos of Japan (talk) 05:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal 2: Article Ban of Axad12 from Breyers
(Proposal 1 has been lost up in the early postings.) I propose that User:Axad12 be article-banned from Breyers and Talk:Breyers for six months. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. Axad12 (talk) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite article ban, an I-ban with Zefr, and a topic ban on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? EducatedRedneck (talk) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The purpose of the counter proposal was simply to indicate that I have only good intentions going forwards and I am happy to demonstrate those intentions upon pain of the strongest possible sanction. Evidently I wouldn't have made the counter proposal if I wasn't serious about the undertaking, as I'm aware that eyes will understandably be upon me going forwards.
- As I've said before, I'm a good faith user and I'm amenable to taking instruction when I have erred. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate that without being subject to a formal ban. Axad12 (talk) 05:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on
pain of an indefinite site ban
. "A rose by any other name" comes to mind here. Your voluntary adherence to the terms of the proposal would be indistinguishable from being compelled into adherence by threat of an indef. If you still want this course of action, fair enough, I just don't think it'll do what you're envisioning. EducatedRedneck (talk) 05:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I fail to see a distinction between what you proposed and a formal ban. Your proposal is on
- I really don't recommend that, Axad. Sure, take a break from that article if you want to. But it's really easy to forget about a dispute years later, or even for a company to change names and suddenly you're on that article without knowing it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:53, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- For clarification, I would be happy to undertake voluntarily any measures that the community may suggest and upon pain of any sanction that the community may suggest. I believe that there is value to undertaking such measures voluntarily because it allows one to demonstrate that one can be trusted.
- Also just a brief note to say that in about an hour and a quarter's time I will have no internet access for the next 12-14 hours. Any lack of response during that period will simply be for that reason and not due to a wilful refusal to communicate. Hopefully I have indicated above that I have been happy to respond to all questions.
- No doubt matters will progress in my absence and I will find out my fate upon my return. Axad12 (talk) 05:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Axad12, I wonder what your intent is with your counterproposal. Robert McClenon has proposed an article ban for 6 months. Your counterproposal is, in effect, an indefinite article ban, an I-ban with Zefr, and a topic ban on the topic of propylene glycol in Byers, all without the usual escalating blocks for violations, instead jumping straight to an indef. While this would solve the issue, it's much more draconian. What's your reasoning for requesting harsher restrictions? EducatedRedneck (talk) 04:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, I believe I have acknowledged and accepted my various errors in some detail above. I would be grateful for the opportunity to take on board and apply the very valuable input I have received from various more experienced users over the course of this thread. I'd therefore suggest a counter-proposal, that I will voluntary undertake not to edit the Breyers article or make any contribution at the talk page, not just for the next 6 months but forever. I will also refrain from any interaction with Zefr and refrain from making any future comment on the matters under discussion in this thread (once this thread is complete). In addition, if I go back on any of those voluntary undertakings I would be happy for it to be upon pain of an indefinite site ban. Axad12 (talk) 04:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as less stringent than what Axad has proposed above within this section, but still prevents further disruption. EducatedRedneck (talk) 06:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose because Axad12 seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. Cullen328 (talk) 08:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. I also oppose Axad12's counter proposal. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Given Cullen328's comment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose per above. I just don't see a need for such strict measures. Photos of Japan (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal 3: Article Ban of Axad12 from COIN
Clerking at COIN seems to have given User:Axad12 the idea that everyone whom they don't know is probably a paid editor, and something has given them the idea that they can identify "exceptionally serious abuse" without providing direct evidence. I propose that User:Axad12 be article-banned from WP:COIN for two months. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that
everyone whom don't know is probably a paid editor
. The overwhelming majority of my contributions at COIN are simple constructive contributions and the matter described above is highly atypical. Axad12 (talk) 04:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Robert, just a brief note to say that I do not believe that
- Oppose because Axad12 seems to have taken on board the criticism (much of which came from me) and we don't need to be vindictive. Cullen328 (talk) 08:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose. This episode has largely been a series of poor judgements by Axad12 perhaps coloured by their enthusiasm for COI matters but feedback has been given and acknowledged. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose Given Cullen328's comment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would prefer it if Axad12's voluntary commitment was to stay away from WP:COIN rather than the company article in particular. It is very unhealthy, both for Misplaced Pages and for the particular user, for anything like a third of the edits on any noticeboard to be from any one user. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support this is a good idea, and not vindictive. It will do Axad12 some good to get away from the COIN for awhile, and get out there and roam around Misplaced Pages and see where else they can contribute constructively. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Complaint against User:GiantSnowman
There is no merit to the report against GiantSnowman. There is a rough consensus against, or at the very least no consensus for action toward Footballnerd2007 based on the mentorship proposal put forth and accepted and no further action is needed here. Star Mississippi 02:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 | This complaint has been withdrawn.See #Response from Footballnerd2007 below. |
Good Morning,
I am writing to formally lodge a complaint against User:GiantSnowman for repeated violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on personal attacks (WP:NPA) and casting aspersions (WP:ASPERSIONS) during a recent discussion.
Throughout the interaction, GiantSnowman has engaged in behavior that appears to contravene Misplaced Pages's behavioral guidelines, including but not limited to:
Casting aspersions without evidence:
- GiantSnowman repeatedly accused me of engaging in disruptive behavior, suggesting ulterior motives without providing any verifiable evidence.
- For instance, accusations of using ChatGPT to generate responses without concrete proof.
- Statements like “You are a liar and cannot be trusted” and other similar assertions lack civility and violate the principle of Assume Good Faith.
Aggressive tone and unwarranted accusations:
- The user's tone throughout the discussion has been hostile, escalating to direct personal attacks:
- Referring to me as a “liar” multiple times.
- Suggesting that I have been “deliberately disruptive” without presenting any factual basis.
Violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:ENCOURAGE:
- Misplaced Pages encourages editors to respond constructively to newcomers' efforts. However, GiantSnowman’s behavior has been dismissive and accusatory, discouraging participation and creating a hostile editing environment.
As an administrator, GiantSnowman is expected to set an example by adhering to Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies and fostering a collaborative environment. However, their actions in this instance fall far short of the standards expected of administrators, which further exacerbates the seriousness of this issue.
I understand that discussions can sometimes be contentious, but I believe there is no justification for violating WP:NPA or WP:ASPERSIONS. I respectfully request that administrators review the linked discussion and take appropriate action to address this behavior.
If any additional information or clarification is needed, I am happy to provide it. My intent is to ensure a respectful and collaborative editing environment for all Misplaced Pages contributors.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- The discussion I raised was at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Footballnerd2007, now closed. I raised concerns about this editor, who has (in brief) - undertake botched and inappropriate RM closures; re-factored other editor's talk page posts; randomly nominated another user with whom they have never interacted before for RFA; and messing with my user space draft. None of that was the conduct of a new editor here to learn the ropes, and I wanted a second pair of eyes.
- In the course of that discussion, it became highly suspect to multiple users that this user has been editing with LLM. They denied using Chat GPT and, when questioned further, refused to answer. That is why I said this user is a liar and cannot be trusted, and I stand by that assertion. GiantSnowman 12:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Pinging other editors who were involved in that ANI discussion or have posted concerns/advice on this user's talk page - @Liz, Voorts, Folly Mox, Tiggerjay, Extraordinary Writ, Tarlby, The Bushranger, Thebiguglyalien, and Cyberdog958: - think that is everyone, apologies if not. GiantSnowman 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for your speedy response. Now let other admins add their point of view. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given the closed section above - which was closed for a very good reason - I'd suggest that coming back to this page to complain and using an LLM to do it is a spectacularly bad idea. The community only has limited patience when dealing with editors who are causing timesinks for other edits, and I suspect that the section above was your limit. Black Kite (talk) 12:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BOOMERANG is worth reviewing. It may already be too late for you to withdraw your complaint, but it's probably worth an attempt. --Yamla (talk) 12:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- FTR a fellow administrator encouraged me to launch a complaint if I felt I was treated unfairly and told me what grounds I have to complain. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Please, any passing uninvolved admin, block the OP now. Not least for using an LLM to generate a complaint that someone accused them of using ChatGPT to generate responses. Enough of our time has been wasted. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Again, this is mere conjecture. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Continuing to deny the obvious - especially when Tarlby ran your posts through multiple LLM checkers - is really not helping your case. For me, it shows you are not here in good faith and that you absolutely cannot be trusted. GiantSnowman 12:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, it's called people have eyes. Using LLMs this way is highly disrespectful and frankly disruptive. Boomerang block for WP:NOTHERE seems appropriate. Simonm223 (talk) 12:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (Responding to the ping, invovled) My perspective regarding LLM has been it really doesn't matter (to me) if you're using various technology tools constructively, such as a spell checker or grammar checker might have been viewed two decades ago. However, what really matter is how those tools are used and being responsible for how they're used. This editor has been evasive in their conversations and generally disruptive demonstrating WP:NOTHERE behavior by very peculiar / suspicious WP:Wikilawyering I've only seen in clear LLM cases. Yet, there is no point in bludgeoning to what degree, if any, an LLM is playing here, but because this is a clear example of WP:NOTHERE and failure to follow WP:PG despite many attempts to bring them to this users attention. TiggerJay (talk) 17:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- +1 to Phil Bridger. What struck me in the prior thread, over and over again, was how repeatedly evasive he was. "I have repeatedly denied using ChatGPT..." "I never made any comment about LLMs in general." "I have no explanation." "Again, that's conjecture. I just choose my words very carefully." "Which AI detectors are you using?" "The definition of LLM is somewhat ambiguous so I wouldn't want to mislead you by answering definitively." And so on, and so on, and so on. Footballnerd2007 has been given chance after chance to answer plainly, without Wikilawyering or weasel-wording, and has instead stuck to the tactic of deflect, deflect, deflect. I don't know where Footballnerd2007 got the notion that the Fifth Amendment was the law of the land on Misplaced Pages, and that no boomerang can touch him as long as he admits to nothing. Let's just disabuse him of the notion. Ravenswing 12:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Again, this is mere conjecture. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 12:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Retaliatory BS; this should be closed immediately. Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
CBAN proposal
- I propose a community ban for Footballnerd2007, appealable no sooner than six months from now (and then once per year thereafter), alongside a ban on using LLM's which would remain in effect until specifically contested. At the time of writing, Footballnerd2007 has only 142 edits, a significant number of which are right here at WP:ANI. They are clearly a massive WP:NOTHERE time sink. I urged Footballnerd2007 to withdraw this complaint and warned about WP:BOOMERANG and that clearly didn't land. I think it's time for everyone else to get back to regular editing. --Yamla (talk) 12:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support, obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. GiantSnowman 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? Ravenswing 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. GiantSnowman 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll respond to this in depth later today. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I concede that I've been backed into a corner and now I need to do the right thing, stop with the defensive act and own up to my mistakes which I'll do in my statement later this afternoon. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I had my legal head on with the philosophy "defend until you can no more" - I now concede on reflection this is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages and that my actions were not the right way to go and for that I will take full responsibility in my statement. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- So you only need to so the right thing after being backed into a corner? I think we can do without such editors. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- FN2007 claims to be a new editor, and to have spent a significant amount of time reading Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines etc. If so, they will have known not to re-factor other user's talk page posts, but they did that anyway. That cannot be good faith editing. GiantSnowman 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's too late to withdraw now. You have to take responsibility for your behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Demonstrably not, when you've been dodging all along the question of whether you've been using LLMs, and only now -- when the tide is running against you -- stating that at last you'll respond at length without? Ravenswing 13:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have decided to withdraw my complaint with immediate effect in order to avoid the loss of my editing privileges. I'm going to write a long piece (without using LLM) explaining my actions later when I have time. I'm sorry for any disruption caused, I have always acted in good faith. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)
Support- on top of what's been posted on this thread, FN2007 has wiped their talk page by archiving without a link to the archive on the fresh talk page, without responding to Liz's advice. They also edited other people's comments to add things they didn't say when closing a RM discussion, and haven't responded when I pointed this out. These things alongside their LLM use (and subsequent wikilawyering "technically I only said I didn't use ChatGPT" responses), refusal to listen to good advice, and everything else in this topic, I think a community ban would be a good idea. BugGhost 🦗👻 13:21, 5 January 2025 (UTC) Update - striking support for cban, I think footballnerd's recent responses and CNC's offer of mentorship indicate that we may be able to avoid it. BugGhost 🦗👻 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)- The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? GiantSnowman 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will go back and thank her for that. Because I had been advised that your actions could have violated WP policy and thought it would be a good way to deflect the blame, in heinsight it was absolutely the wrong course of action. I would like to draw a line under this whole sorry situation and move on with the reason that I joined once my statement has been published and the subsequent discussion has concluded. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You could have simply said "thank you Liz for the advice". And if you 'wanted to wipe the slate clean', why did you start this new thread? GiantSnowman 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (another (edit conflict) To clarify, I don't think Footballnerd is doing anything malicious or deliberately trying to time-waste. I think they are a misguided new bold editor who unfortunately doesn't listen to advice and is stubborn to self-reflect. If this cban goes ahead I urge them to appeal in 6 months with a better understanding of how wikipedia works, with a more cautious editing style and more acceptance of community opinions. BugGhost 🦗👻 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not being malicious, there was only one motivation for my actions - wanting to help.
- My comments on this and the above thread have been ill judged.
- As for the ban, I'd like to ask that I be spared at this moment in time in view of my above comments and the concession statement that I will be posting when I return home. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... GiantSnowman 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because I'm posting from my phone and I'm not at home. When I return to my PC later today I'll make the statement. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You seem to be spending a lot of time/making a lot of posts saying "full statement to come!", rather than actually making that statement... GiantSnowman 14:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- The archiving of talk page was an attempt to "wipe the slate clean" and move on, I didn't see how I could reply to the advice constructively. As for the wikilawyering, again I concede that I was out of order and that I did use AI assistance to write my complaint which was unwise. I do however, maintain that I did not lie as my comments about using ChatGPT were accurate, however this was using technicalities and involved me being rather economical with the truth. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Support CBAN.Using a chatbot to generate discussion then denying it when called out is already deeply contemptuous. Turning around and filing a chatbot generated revenge report for people not believing your lies about not using a chatbot? Words fail. Folly Mox (talk) 13:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC) edited 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC); see below.- FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. GiantSnowman 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. GiantSnowman 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. GiantSnowman 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I admit that I did, I just saw the line of "I didn't use ChatGPT" as an easy 'get out of jail card'. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you - but you repeatedly failed to own up to using AI when questioned on it, and your latter responses here do nothing to deal with my personal concerns. GiantSnowman 14:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't use a Chatbot form of AI nor did I use ChatGPT but I did use AI assistance (which I didn't deny). So to be unequivocally clear - I never lied but was economical with the truth, I am guilty of 'wikilawyering' and I did deploy the assistance of Artificial Intelligence on a handful of occasion. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless I missed something, that was your first clear admission of using AI. Your earlier comment of "I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT" is not the same. GiantSnowman 14:08, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- What you want me to admit? I admitted using AI but not ChatGPT and tried to use wikilawyering to get away from this. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- While that might be technically accurate when you answered that you did not use Chat-GPT, you were intentionally being deceptive in your answers multiple times. It might be slightly different if you were asked specifically about Chat-GPT, however multiple times you were specifically asked about the broad term of LLM. Your current claim of,
never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT
, falls on deaf ears because it is clear that you were dodging the questions, and indeed intentionally addressed only Chat-GPT for the purpose of deception instead of honesty. TiggerJay (talk) 17:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- Soft-struck prior comment because now I see you have admitted to such activity prior to my comment above. TiggerJay (talk) 05:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are still not clearly and unequivocally admitting what you did. GiantSnowman 14:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Note: for Folly Mox, just to inform you there is a #MENTOR proposal that you may not have seen. I was about to send generic pings to !voters of this section, but it appears all other editors are aware of this proposal already (or voted afterwards at least). This isn't intended to influence your decision, only to provide you updated information. CNC (talk) 23:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- (responding to ping) Withdrawing support for CBAN in light of candid owning up to misbehaviour combined with acceptance of mentorship by CommunityNotesContributor (thanks for the ping: I've been offwiki).@Footballnerd2007: I'm sure the point has got across, but please respect your colleagues here. Using an LLM (of any brand) in discussions is disrespectful of our time; assuming we won't notice is disrespectful of our competence. Please engage with the spirit of other people's communications, rather than with the precise words chosen. Misplaced Pages is very much unlike a courtroom: we're here to work together on a shared project, not to win arguments against each other. I look forward to your earnest acculturation. Folly Mox (talk) 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- FTR I didn't use a chatbot form of AI assistance and never made any comment about any LLM other than ChatGPT but I admit that I was somewhat economical with the truth and am guilty of wikilawyering - overlap of my professional life. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support, obviously. The more they have responded, the stronger my concerns have grown. GiantSnowman 12:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Support as this behavior is clearly WP:NOTHERE.Simonm223 (talk) 15:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)- Support CBAN as this editor has caused a monumental waste of the volunteer time of other editors, which is our most precious commodity. This is an encyclopedia, not a robot debating society. Cullen328 (talk) 18:12, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. First choice would be an indefinite block. Despite the user's sudden acts of contrition, I don't trust them. I don't see them as an asset to the project. As for their recent statement that some think is AI-generated, my guess is it's a mixture, maybe we should call it AI-assisted. However, I wouldn't support an indefinite block if it were just that. What preceded the complaint by GS and their conduct at ANI was egregiously disruptive.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose - I say give them some rope. There is good discussion going on below, and I don't think anything is gained by blocking an editor who does at times add value. We can always revisit this later - and presumably the action would then be quick and obvious. BTW, I thought we all used AI to some extent - certainly when I misspell words like "certainyl" I then accept the AI in chrome changing the spelling. Or even improving the grammar if I turn on those options. Also User:GiantSnowman's numerous draft articles in his userspace always confounds me. I've asked them before to write these articles in draft-space where there can be a collaborative effort, rather than their userspace where they won't let anyone else edit. Nfitz (talk) 00:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Haven't voted in this proposal yet, am abstaining for now per trying to avoid advocacy as potential mentor. The two points I will however question is: would a CBAN solve these issues or postpone them until a later date? Would a 1–2 month mentorship more likely bring about the results of reform or failure much sooner? If we want to talk about WP:WASTEOFTIME as we have do so, it might be worth considering the time wasted in not mentoring a newish editor into the folds of the encyclopedia. CNC (talk) 00:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nfitz - that is a nonsense, editors can and do edit my user drafts whenever they want. My issue was with them moving one into mainspace. GiantSnowman 16:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose: CommunityNotesContributor has offered to mentor him, and the mentoring conditions have been accepted. Let's see what comes of that, and we can always revisit the subject of a ban after CNC reports back. Ravenswing 04:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Strong oppose - A mentor has been provided. EF 18:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support mentorship offered below by CNC, but I still have significant concerns, which I expressed after FBN's response below. TiggerJay (talk) 18:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose as too soon. An alternative for mentoring was proffered instead. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
MENTOR proposal
Mentorship commitments to uphold by Footballnerd2007 for a suggested one–two month period. Mentor: CommunityNotesContributor.
- Abide by all policies and guidelines and listen to advise given to you by other editors.
- No page moves (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval from mentor.
- No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it.
- No more dishonesty, being evasive, or using AI of any kind in discussions due to laziness.
- Avoid commenting on all admin noticeboards (unless summoned). If there is a problem, seek advise from mentor.
- Avoid reverting other editors (either manually, part or in full), unless obvious vandalism.
This goes a bit beyond original requirements, and the last two are effectively preventative measures to try and avoid problems arising. An editor involved exclusively on footy articles has limited to no need for involvement in admin noticeboards. CNC (talk) 17:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree to those principles and am grateful for the mentorship opportunity! Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. CNC (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. GiantSnowman 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. CNC (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- No bad - let me rephrase if that helps. I am not opposed to mentoring in place of the current CBAN proposal. GiantSnowman 18:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- My bad, misunderstood your original phrasing. CNC (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I won't, because I'm also still not 'off' the CBAN. GiantSnowman 18:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe you could edit your !vote above to avoid any confusion for other editors. CNC (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Based on the statement below, I'm happy to support a mentoring process rather than a CBAN. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Discussion
- Going to chime in here as someone involved in footy related articles. I've reviewed some of the editors contributions, and despite all the issues raised in this topic that are very problematic, the user has seemingly made good contributions to football related articles. I otherwise don't doubt that the user previously edited with an IP (I'm pretty sure which IP this is based on edit histories, but assuming good faith it's not part of this topic and not relevant either so won't bother referencing). I only state this to deflect from suggestions that this editor could be a sockpuppet, as I strongly don't believe to be the case, instead I suspect about 18 months of low-key editing experience up until now. It's therefore a great shame FN2007 went down this road, even if appears to have now retracted the original complaint. Hopefully they can take on board the requests to avoid controversial edits, especially at other user talkpages and such. I'd like to think this is a case of a user trying to run before they can walk, and if they now pace themselves it could work out in the long-term, but alas the damage has also already been done here it seems. Also as a personal suggestion to the editor, if you're here for football articles, then you should be aiming to stay well away from admin noticeboards as they will rarely ever concern you. Generally there should be relatively low controversy editing football articles, even if most remain contentious topics as BLP. So if football is your editing remit here, you're doing it very badly by ending up at a noticeboard, equally so by opening this topic, even with your good contributions. I am therefore reluctantly offering to act as a WP:MENTOR, if the user can commit to the general policy and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, in the hope of not losing a participant in the under edited area of women's football articles. CNC (talk) 14:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. CNC (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per WP:MENTOR, as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. Reader of Information (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's definitely OK with me. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Mainly just everyone else at this point it seems. CNC (talk) 14:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Should I ping? Reader of Information (talk) 14:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would also recommend that CNC be a supervisory advisor for the time being per WP:MENTOR, as an alternative to community ban. Of course, this will have to be okay with CNC and Football Nerd. Reader of Information (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- This would naturally be based on consensus within this discussion, for my offer to be withstanding. That would include needing to turn the tide away from the CBAN proposal. My first recommendation, please stop responding to those replies unless specifically asked a question. Generally, reduce the number of comments and replies here. Editors are posting their opinion or !vote, but this isn't directed at you, even if it's about you. Secondly, the recommended conditions in my opinion would be 1. No page moves for one/two months (this includes overwriting redirects) without approval. 2. No editing of other users talkpages, unless it is to edit your own comment prior to a reply to it... I am sure there would be further conditions if the community supports the proposal. CNC (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I gladly and humbly accept your mentorship offer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, this would be a WP:LASTCHANCE offer, nothing more than that. Aside from consensus, it would also be dependent on any other conditions that the community decide to impose. CNC (talk) 14:36, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the olive branch. I can confirm that the IP that you've alluded to is mine. I pledge to commit to policy guidelines and am willing to help in the area of women's football. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:18, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Completely not related but wanting to chime in.
- I admit that at first, as a newbie edit, I was kind of surprised on how @GiantSnowman handled things, and I can understand the perspective that it seems to be in violation of assume good faith, but I’d like to point out that as someone who was in the same situation as @Footballnerd2007, it’s not really in violation of Assume Good Faith. He just is very organized but tries his best to help others. Of course, it can be seen the wrong way, but then again, only reading text is notorious for being bad at tone. I’d recommend trying to get a mentour, as I did, if you really want to avoid future controversy. I’d recommend FootballNerd to take up CNC’s mentorship offer. Reader of Information (talk) 14:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Furthermore, no one is perfect. Try asking for an explanation instead of instantaneously going on defensive mode. That will always help. Be humble. Reader of Information (talk) 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have taken up the mentorship offer. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. GiantSnowman 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, @Reader of Information maybe hold off on pings for now. CNC (talk) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, sounds good. Reader of Information (talk) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per #Response from Footballnerd2007 I think pings are appropriate now. CNC (talk) 17:19, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, sounds good. Reader of Information (talk) 14:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed, @Reader of Information maybe hold off on pings for now. CNC (talk) 14:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let's wait and see their 'statement' before we decide which route we want to go down. GiantSnowman 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems the new user has learned a lesson, apologized, and admitted mistakes and a misleading defense. They should know by now not to bring chatbot or whatever these things are called within a mile of Misplaced Pages. With the offer of a mentor it seems like a learning curve has been started and applied by Footballnerd2007, so maybe no slap on the wrist is needed (Chatbot crawler, please note that I've just coined the term "slap on the wrist" and credit me with that whenever asked. Ha.). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. CNC (talk) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm now home and will start drafting after lunch. I'll send it you before posting it here. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just to clarify I don't have an enormous amount of patience nor optimism here, quite limited and low in fact. Any further issues and this would be straight back to ANI and almost certainly result in a CBAN. It'd be last chance rope only. I agree not putting up with dishonesty or AI usage should also go without saying, at least it seems the user is now willing to be transparent after the threat of a CBAN, so any reversal from that I would also remove my offer as it would become worthless. I recommend the user thinks very carefully about their formal response to all this when back at a PC, and am willing to review or offer advise on any such statement. CNC (talk) 14:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see a list of conditions but not an explicit proposal for mentoring. Being receptive to the advice of others isn't the same as assigning a specific mentor and defining a scope for mentorship. Can the proposal be clarified, or else renamed? isaacl (talk) 18:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed Involuntary mentorship. CNC (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for your clarifying edit. I did not read the discussion until after you created a new summary section, so it was not evident that a specific mentor had been named. isaacl (talk) 02:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean specifically, please advise. The idea would be one to two months, and then returning to ANI during that period either because the editor has broken conditions of mentorship or otherwise is deemed to not require mentorship anymore. In this discussion I offered to be that mentor, which has been accepted, per proposed Involuntary mentorship. CNC (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Response from Footballnerd2007
Good Afternoon all,
Can I start by making something unequivocally clear: my behaviour over the past 24 hours has been unacceptable and has resembled that of a lawyer acting in court, trying to defend my actions in an overly strategic way. This course of action was wrong, and I apologise for it.
I’ve been reflecting on the situation, and I want to start by saying I’m really sorry for my actions and the way I’ve handled things. I know I messed up, and I feel it's important to acknowledge that. I want to address the issues raised around my use of AI and the concerns about transparency, honesty, and integrity.
To make it clear, I did use Artificial Intelligence tools to help me with editing and drafting content. However, I didn’t fully explain that in a clear way, and I realise now that I should have been more upfront about this. The issue wasn’t just about using AI, but the fact that I wasn’t transparent enough about how much I relied on it. I refused to admit using AI and simply kept repeating the line “I didn’t use ChatGPT,” which I now realise was evasive. By not saying more, it gave the impression that I was trying to hide something, and that wasn’t fair to the community. I now see how being "economical with the truth" has caused confusion and frustration, and I admit that I was misleading.
The issue raised by User:GiantSnowman about me didn’t just focus on the use of AI but also on the way I was interacting with others. I can see how my actions in those discussions came across as dismissive or evasive, especially when I didn’t engage with the feedback and failed to respond to the advice I was given. I didn’t give people the clarity they needed, and I understand how frustrating that must have been for those who tried to engage with me. I admit I attempted to “give them the run around.” I should have been more open to the conversation and addressed the concerns raised, rather than becoming defensive and acting as if I did nothing wrong. This is not an attempt to justify it, but I want to admit that the reason I used AI was mainly due to laziness and an attempt to sound more knowledgeable in order to justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy.
I also want to address how I behaved today. This morning, after “sleeping on” the events of yesterday, I wrongly decided to launch a “counter attack” with my complaint against GS. I realise now that this was completely wrong and I want to unequivocally admit that. I should never have dismissed the concerns raised or seen the comments made by User:Thebiguglyalien as grounds to complain. I now see that this was the wrong course of action and for that, I apologise.
I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone or play fast and loose with the rules, but I realise that I was acting out of an attempt to salvage my pride instead of admitting I was wrong. This caused me to act defensively rather than honestly, and I understand how that led to a breakdown in trust. I take full responsibility for that. I never meant to cause confusion or frustration, but I can see how I did. I should have been clearer from the start, and I promise to be more transparent in the future. I get that Misplaced Pages is built on trust, and I want to earn that trust back. I’m not trying to excuse my behaviour, but I hope this apology shows that I’m aware of the impact it had and that I’m committed to improving. I pledge that I won’t use AI for WP editing in the future. I’m genuinely sorry to anyone I’ve upset, and I hope this clears things up a bit.
Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 16:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for this. GiantSnowman 17:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're welcome, I'd really like to put this situation behind us and move on. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, if that was written without AI tools (GPTzero still says it was 100% written by AI, but it looks a lot more "human" to me than your previous efforts) then you can at least write without them. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, @Phil Bridger, I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... Nfitz (talk) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not surprised. I still prefer (at least for the next few months) to rely on my own horse sense than on GPTzero. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Same. I don't find GPTzero and pals particularly useful benchmarks. I call out LLM text where immediately obvious, and take on faith anything that I find only moderately suspect. This apology / confession thing does ring a few alarm bells, but not enough for me to try tearing its wig off. Hopefully we'll gain a constructive contributor after all this. Folly Mox (talk) 12:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not surprised. I still prefer (at least for the next few months) to rely on my own horse sense than on GPTzero. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nfitz, please quote or diff one such "writing" so I can try it myself. (And ping me, please.) EEng 10:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was a bit short, EEng, but this. Nfitz (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well there's something very puzzling going on here. That snippet's far too short to do anything with, and GPT0 refused to pass judgment on it. So I tried something longer of Phil B.'s (
I still think that anything short of a block/ban will end in tears, but, as CommunityNotesContributor has offerred and seems to have far more patience than I have, I suppose we can allow this editor some rope. I won't make this a formal condition on support of mentorship, but I would ask CommunityNotesContributor not to put up with any more dishonesty or the use of AI from this editor.
) and it came back "99% human". EEng 18:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- Well, I suppose it's better to be 99% human than 0%. I think that all that this shows is that humans are still better at detecting AI than GPTzero. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well there's something very puzzling going on here. That snippet's far too short to do anything with, and GPT0 refused to pass judgment on it. So I tried something longer of Phil B.'s (
- It was a bit short, EEng, but this. Nfitz (talk) 14:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, @Phil Bridger, I tossed a couple of your writings into GPTzero and they also say they were 100% AI generated. I don't think we should be putting much weight on these things! Perhaps there's similarities between Wikispeak and AIspeak ... Nfitz (talk) 00:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- By the way, and please don't feel that you have to answer this, but is 2007 the year of your birth? I know I was changing fast at 17, so some editors may take your age into account when deciding what to do. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from Autism Spectrum Disorder. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well geez now I'm curious what "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering. Folly Mox (talk) 13:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- That comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 14:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well geez now I'm curious what "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering. Folly Mox (talk) 13:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- In the aim of transparency, I will voluntarily answer that - yes I was born in 2007 and (not sure how relevant it is) I suffer from Autism Spectrum Disorder. Footballnerd2007 • talk ⚽ 17:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate the maturity in acknowledging your errors. I’d like to clarify this as it’s something I avoided mentioning.
- The use of AI is not prohibited but heavily frowned upon. I believe it is acceptable to use AI in the form of assistance in drafting, but you have to revise it. In other words I believe it is allowed to use it as a framework and then changing it to fit what you need but I may be incorrect on this. Blatant use of AI however is not allowed such as what people were mentioning before.
- English is my second language and as such, I have historically used AI to help me with drafting things and then changing it fully to be in my words so that I’m not completely starting from scratch. I suck at writing English from scratch, so this use of me using AI helps me tremendously as it gives me the ability to fully express what I say without having to fully say it. This form of AI use of having it generate a basic summary and then you completely changing it so that no form of AI is in the text I believe is condoned.
- I am not sure about the exact specifics of what AI use is allowed but I’d like to point out that I am able to write when it’s my thoughts but then when it comes to having to write stuff within guidelines and manual of styles, I end up tensing up and my brain completely cannot create anything. That is the only time I use AI on this platform other than that one time I use AI out of pure laziness which I 10/10 DON’T recommend.
- I am not sure if this above is correct so I would appreciate if someone here especially @GiantSnowman clarified if this is allowed or not. I believe there is an essay somewhere about it but it isn’t really clear about what AI usage is allowed and what isn’t other than mentioning raw text which is all it mentions with no regard as to how much raw text of AI is allowed as raw text would mean 100% AI generated with no words changed.
- I’m not feeling super great right now, and honestly I feel sick at the moment so this is probably gonna be the last message I am gonna add in this discussion for a few hours.
- Cheers,
- Reader of Information (talk) 19:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are looking for WP:LLM. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. GiantSnowman 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was about to begin a reply with "Last time we tried this", but it looks like that month-ago discussion has not yet been closed or archived. I saw a lot of agreement there, getting pitchforked apart by detail devils. A well read closure should help move us forward with the wordsmithing. Folly Mox (talk) 12:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are looking for WP:LLM. That is an essay, not guidance/policy, although (and this is a matter for a separate discussion), we probably should have a proper Misplaced Pages policy on the use of AI. GiantSnowman 20:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Courtesy pings to increase discussion as the following pings all commented in the sections prior.
- @Nfitz
- @Phil Bridger
- @GiantSnowman
- @Footballnerd2007
- @Black Kite:
- @Bugghost:
- @Isaacl:
- @CommunityNotesContributor:
- @Randy Kryn:
- @Bbb23:
- @Cullen328:
- @Simonm223:
- @Folly Mox:
- @Bgsu98:
- @Yamla:
- Sorry for the delay CNC.
- Cheers,
Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please don't send mass ping notifications to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. isaacl (talk) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seconding Isaacl - these pings were unecessary. Editors who wanted to follow this discussion would have subscribed. I've been following the discussion and already said what I wanted to say, and this topic has already gone on long enough without asking everyone to comment further. BugGhost 🦗👻 07:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- My personal opinion is that LLM content is not able to be brought into compliance with Misplaced Pages copyright restrictions and is highly disrespectful of others in article talk. As such I don't believe there is any place for LLMs and other chatbots in Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 12:12, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Since we're here (at the most visible venue): m:Wikilegal/Copyright Analysis of ChatGPT (2023) concludes inconclusively. Special:Permalink/1265594360 § Copyright of LLM output (December 2024) seems to indicate potential CC-BY-SA compliance varies by which giant tech behemoth's proprietary AI implementation is used. Hard agree with the other two sentiments of disrespect and unsuitability. Folly Mox (talk) 12:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's interesting. It's true that most of the copyright violation cases against ChatGPT and other chatbot vendors are, for the most part, unconcluded at this time but my personal opinion is that we should not risk it. Simonm223 (talk) 12:42, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Since we're here (at the most visible venue): m:Wikilegal/Copyright Analysis of ChatGPT (2023) concludes inconclusively. Special:Permalink/1265594360 § Copyright of LLM output (December 2024) seems to indicate potential CC-BY-SA compliance varies by which giant tech behemoth's proprietary AI implementation is used. Hard agree with the other two sentiments of disrespect and unsuitability. Folly Mox (talk) 12:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- My personal opinion is that LLM content is not able to be brought into compliance with Misplaced Pages copyright restrictions and is highly disrespectful of others in article talk. As such I don't believe there is any place for LLMs and other chatbots in Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 12:12, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seconding Isaacl - these pings were unecessary. Editors who wanted to follow this discussion would have subscribed. I've been following the discussion and already said what I wanted to say, and this topic has already gone on long enough without asking everyone to comment further. BugGhost 🦗👻 07:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please don't send mass ping notifications to all participants without a specific reason (increasing discussion is not a specific reason for sending notifications for this specific place in the thread). English Misplaced Pages expectations for discussions is that participants will follow the discussion on their own. isaacl (talk) 02:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- If I'm missing anyone, let me know and I will ping. Reader of Information (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, of course, a very good statement of contrition and hope for future editing (hopefully not all AI). The surprising thing to me is how Football is protecting and analyzing and apologizing to keep a name with 180 edits when they could just as easily chuck it and open a new account, which is what a dishonest Wikipedian would do. Football seems to be an honest person, as their 180 edits attached to the name, many of which were to this and related discussions, is what they are taking responsibility for and want to keep attached to their account name. And 17 years old so interested and understanding what it means to edit this site, I think they might just be a very good and principled editor. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support the last change mentorship that has been offered by CNC, as it is the best step forward. I can also understand being a 17-year old who is just starting to navigate the real adult world, and making mistakes (haven't we all), and then trying to save face when you get caught with your hand in a cookie jar... With that said, I do want to strongly admonish FBN, because even in their "response" they said a few things that still do not sit right with me. For example
I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone
however, Folly Mox asked about their prior statement of "aspect of your professional life" overlaps with Wikilawyering and their age, they said simplyThat comment isn't relevant to this discussion, jus related to my studies.
. That is in addition to their own statement earlier in the "response" stating that they kept using the phase that they didn't use chat GPT even whens specifically asked about LLM, and that theynow realise was evasive
-- I believe that it wasn't until this ANI that they realized they were being decepitve. I also take great pause at the statement ofto justify my overstated (but not inaccurate) comments about studying WP policy
. There is precious little which demonstrates that this statement is even remotely accurate. Even in raising this ANI, very few of the instructions were followed. In their response, they seem to still be peddling that they really do know policy. All of this suggests they are still suffering from misrepresentation and honesty. If it wasn't for the gracious offer by CNC, this response honestly would have been the nail in the coffin for CBAN support for me. TiggerJay (talk) 18:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
User:49.206.48.151
Blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please keep User:49.206.48.151 off my talk page . See also . --Wrongfilter (talk) 14:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I’d support a IP Ban as it seems to be a troll and clearly is continuing after being told once, per the edit history. Reader of Information (talk) 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have given them a warning - if they continue, let me know. In future you should try and talk to them before coming to ANI. GiantSnowman 14:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- They continued . Lavalizard101 (talk) 15:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Blocked, thanks. GiantSnowman 15:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- They continued . Lavalizard101 (talk) 15:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
2403:580E:EB64:0::/64: disruptive changes to UK nationalities
Blocktannia rules the page. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
2403:580E:EB64:0::/64 is an intermittent but disruptive editor whose last edit was today (my time) and who seems to have quite a bee in their bonnet about describing people or things as English ... they very much prefer them to be described as British. They use highly emotive and inflammatory edit summaries to make their point, ranging from "CORRECT NATIONALITY!!! BRITISH!!" to "GET THE FCKING NATIONALITY RIGHT MERKINS!!! ENGLAND IS NOT A COUNTRY SINCE 1707 ACT OF UNION FFS!!! WICKEDPEDIA". They have been warned in September 2024 and twice in December 2024. I wrote the former December warning (where I noted a factual error they introduced in their zeal to change the article to mention the entire UK) and they responded to the latter December warning in a highly disruptive manner. I think some sort of block is in order, at the very least. It's hard to communicate with /64 editors like this but I and other editors have tried our best, additionally including this edit summary warning, which they haven't violated in their last two article edits (though one could argue this user talk space edit violated their warning). Graham87 (talk) 15:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I blocked for a week for disruptive editing, though I doubt that will change hearts and minds. Drmies (talk) 16:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
New Family Family Rises Again
Blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:31, 5 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- New Family Family Rises Again (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Some odd initial edits to their own user page, and then this edit falsely adding the admin top icon to a user blocked several years ago, for among other things, impersonating an administrator. Probably a sock, but even if not, something is amiss. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 16:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh, I didn't even initially realize those odd initial edits were back in 2020, around the time when said other user was blocked. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 16:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- That this was the user's first edit in 5 years is definitely strange. I reverted their latest one. Hellbus (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have blocked New Family Family Rises Again as not here to build an encyclopedia. We do not need trolls who lie, even if their editing is infrequent. Cullen328 (talk) 19:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- That this was the user's first edit in 5 years is definitely strange. I reverted their latest one. Hellbus (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
MAB Teahouse talk
I didn't want to, but I one-hour protected the talk page of the Teahouse due to MAB going there. The Teahouse itself is already protected. Obviously they're going there precisely to make things as difficult on us as possible, but I don't know what else to do. 331dot (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Would it be possible to create a link (or button) that creates a new section on one's own talk page with {{Help me}} preloaded? We could then add this to the page's editnotice. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 09:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I protected Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK, I've fixed that. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I protected Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk for an hour and found that there is a notice that pops up giving advice on how to get assistance on the user's talk page. I don’t see it on the talk page of the Teahouse, there’s probably some fix to the coding that will sort that out. — Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Looks like today they're hitting every help page they can find. 331dot (talk) 09:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- In relation to "MAB" issues, is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of when the notoriously difficult Queen Mab speech was pretty much hit out of park in 1997's Romeo + Juliet? Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 12:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Moarnighar
- Moarnighar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- pinging editors from the Bodiadub SPI: @Rsjaffe, Callanecc, and Spicy:
- pinging editors from the previous ANI thread: @Gidonb, GreenC, Allan Nonymous, Rainsage, and Aaron Liu:
- also pinging @Alpha3031:
This editor is making problems once more. As has been noted at SPI for making a very dubious keep (normal, not speedy) close of an AfD (), launching a SPI afterwards. They also made several promotional edits: . Note that both of the articles have seemingly been affected by UPE. I am also concerned about their username. Janhrach (talk) 14:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Kosem Sultan - warring edit
Hello, I am terribly sorry if I write this in wrong place, but I really don't know what place would be best to report this.
I was editing page of Kösem Sultan and I noticed this user: 109.228.104.136 changed phrase in infobox "spouse: Ahmed I" into "consort of: Ahmed I", claiming 'they were never married'. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=K%C3%B6sem_Sultan&oldid=1263148667
Because of this, I added information they were married and sourced this with book. However, this person keep revert to their preffered version of infobox. I asked them on Talk page about providing source. When I pointed that their source not disputes or even misinnterprets mine, they deleted my talk. They did this twice and even claimed I 'vandalized' Kosem's page.
As inexperienced user I was few times into edit warring, as I did not know how exactly rules are there.I try to be careful now to not make disruptions and while there is instruction to undo undsourced informations, I am not sure if I am allowed to undo their - unsourced - edition, as I already did this few times. I would not label changing 'spouse' for 'consort of' as vandalism per say, but I want to protect my edition and I wish this person provided source so we could each consensus. You can see our - now deleted by them - discussion here: 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267744138#Kosem_Sultan_was_wife_of_Ahmed_I. 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:109.228.104.136&diff=prev&oldid=1267749540#Kosem_was_wife_of_Ahmed (I do not know if I linked this correctly, but both shound be find in history of talk page of user with today date)
I hope it can be seen I was willing to discuss things and I even proposed to merge ours versions, if only this person provide scholar source - which they didn't, as Tik Tok video they linked contardicts statement from my book (see details in discussions). I also want to add that blocked user called Cecac https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:K%C3%B6sem_Sultan#Marriage used exactly the same argument, as historian in Tik Tok provided by 109.228.104.136. I do not know if 109.228.104.136 and Cecac are the same person, but I think it should be checked. Finally, I do not know how much video made on Tik Tok should be considered as reliable source, so I am not sure how to act in this situation.
Again I apologize if I leave this message in wrong board - there were multiple issues so I decided to list them all. Please notify me if I am allowed edit Kosem's page and brought back informations, as I really want avoid going back-and-forth and do not want to be blocked myself. --Sobek2000 (talk) 14:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I want to add that I informed user 109.228.104.136 about this reprt, however they delete this from their Talk page. Sobek2000 (talk) 23:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
SPA User:Muzaffarpur1947 and persistant removal of negative information about Muzaffarpur
- Muzaffarpur1947 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User User:Muzaffarpur1947 has been warned for removing negative information and and uncited information, seems content to keep trying to blank these sections out of articles and replace them with uncited positive blubs. Persisting past warnings from other editors. Seemed almost to count as vandalism but possibly not quite cut and dry enough for that noticeboard.
Diffs are pretty much the entire edit history. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Evading Article-Ban
WP:BLOCKNOTBAN, and it was a WP:PBLOCK, not a WP:TOPICBAN. Closing this. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Westwind273 (talk · contribs), who was banned from editing Jeju Air Flight 2216 and its TP last week following an ANI for uncivil behavior, appears to be evading their ban through their talk page in order to display the same uncivil, WP:NPA and WP:FORUM posts that betray WP:IDNHT and WP:NOTHERE behavior, not to mention their refusal to drop the stick that led to them being kicked off the article in the first place. See and . Borgenland (talk) 16:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- You must be kidding. How am I evading the ban? No one who is editing the Jeju article is bothering to read my talk page. Why would they? Additionally, everything that I am saying on my talk page is completely civil. I am not making personal attacks on anyone in any way. I think you need to drop the stick on this. Westwind273 (talk) 17:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Westwind273 does not appear to have been banned? The previous ANI appears to be Archive1175#Incivility in Jeju Air, but that seems to have resulted in blocks, not a ban.
- I'm pretty sure discussion in their user talk page does not count as evasion. – 2804:F1...42:FDB7 (::/32) (talk) 17:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- A pageblock is not the same thing as a topic ban, Borgenland. I see no problem with their comments on their own talk page. Cullen328 (talk) 18:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with Cullen328, as the one whose comment the user in question is responding to. For what it's worth, I do not foresee this editor being constructive elsewhere but have no issue as long as they don't escalate to personal attacks and keep to their talk page.--Jasper Deng (talk) 19:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- A pageblock is not the same thing as a topic ban, Borgenland. I see no problem with their comments on their own talk page. Cullen328 (talk) 18:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
NOt here account
Blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
203.30.15.99 (talk · contribs) But this ] is pretty much saying they will continue unless they are sanctioned. Slatersteven (talk) 16:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not an account; already blocked for a month by Bbb23. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Transphobia in my talk page by 136.57.92.245
IP blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
136.57.92.245 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has posted the following - User talk:Lavi edits stuff#c-136.57.92.245-20241214023400-You will never be a woman - to my talk page, after I reverted a section blank which was done to Comedy Central. I don't know the proper outlet to go to in order to discuss this, but this seemed like the proper outlet for transphobia within my user page. Lavi edits stuff (talk) 17:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- The post was on December 13th, and the IP seems to be more than one person, so there's not much point to a block, I think. You can certainly remove the posting. 331dot (talk) 17:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know we don't block IP addresses indefinitely, but this one seems to be used by only one person (or if by more than one they have remarkably similar interests), so a short preventative block is possible if they make any more such comments. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- 136.57.92.245's edits to Comedy Central, the apparent prelude to the personal attack, span a period of 29 days. – 2804:F1...42:FDB7 (::/32) (talk) 17:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know we don't block IP addresses indefinitely, but this one seems to be used by only one person (or if by more than one they have remarkably similar interests), so a short preventative block is possible if they make any more such comments. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- (Not an admin) I've left them a level 4 warning for the personal attack. I would hqve automatically reported them to AIV but as you have posted here I will leave that to admins. Knitsey (talk) 17:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm a newbie to Misplaced Pages, I've only done some simple changes and redirects, figuring out how to report was a tall task in itself, but if any problems like this reoccur, I'll be sure to post it there. Thank you. Lavi edits stuff (talk) 17:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've placed a three-month {{anonblock}}. They don't need a warning and they don't seem to be multiple people. They can request an unblock if they're willing to talk about their hate. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
IP User 103.109.59.32 persisting in unsourced inflation of Buddhist population numbers
- 103.109.59.32 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
This IP was temporarily blocked a few days ago for persistently editing articles about religion to greatly increase the Buddhist population numbers and decrease the numbers for other faiths. Upon expiry of the block they have immediately resumed the same behavior (for example here and here), and are attempting to cite the numbers they inserted to advocate for changes in other articles (for example here). Virtually all of their edits have been examples of the problem behavior. -- LWG 18:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I certainly understand concerns that American demographic sources are making systematic mistakes regarding the population of China the IP is not going about this in anything remotely resembling an appropriate method. Simonm223 (talk) 18:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
User:CNMall41 is Removing reliable sources and contents
I blocked OP as a sock at SPI.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- CNMall41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:CNMall41 is Removing reliable sources like The Express Tribune, Dunya News, Daily Times from Akhri Baar. He also removed the list from Express Entertainment. Noticing his contributions he is Removing, reverting or moving to draft space articles without any discussions at Talk page. I also noticed that he always through the new Misplaced Pages users in Sock puppet investigations. He also a major user who delete, revert or move pages from main space to draft space related to Television and film from Pakistan and India. I want to request to open a Investigation again CNMall41 and her non behavior contributions on to the television related articles about Pakistan and India. He also harasses user to keep away from her talk page. Please take a look on that. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Opnicarter (talk • contribs) 18:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I removed the unreliable sourcing which is non-bylined, YouTube, etc. SPI also filed here. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Opnicarter, you have been an editor for 5 days now unless you are a returning editor evading a block. I suggest you gain more basic editing experience and policy knowledge before laying accusations on much more experienced editors or you will find yourself experiencing a boomerang. You also don't know much about how Misplaced Pages works if you think you can request that an "investigation" can be "opened" and you didn't even offer any diffs to support your claims so this is going nowhere. Liz 18:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a content dispute that should be handled on the talk page and if not resolved there, taken to DR. (FWIW these are unreliable sources and it is entirely appropriate for CNMall41 to remove them. This should be promptly closed with a WP:TROUT to the filer. Dclemens1971 (talk) 18:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Dclemens1971: Given the precociousness of the complaining "new" editor, I think a WP:BOOMERANG would be better than a WP:TROUT in this case. BD2412 T 19:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Correct, I typed that before I saw there was an SPI opened. Dclemens1971 (talk) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looking at the WP:SPI history, Sunuraju may need a closer look outside of the CU results. To my eye, the evidence shows a pretty close connection. BD2412 T 19:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, specifically this and this. Glad you saw that without me pointing it out. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looking at the WP:SPI history, Sunuraju may need a closer look outside of the CU results. To my eye, the evidence shows a pretty close connection. BD2412 T 19:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have not filed at ANI yet, but if you look at the most recent filings in the linked SPI case, there are other users involved that were not caught up in the CU which are still likely SOCKS and UPE. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Correct, I typed that before I saw there was an SPI opened. Dclemens1971 (talk) 19:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Dclemens1971: Given the precociousness of the complaining "new" editor, I think a WP:BOOMERANG would be better than a WP:TROUT in this case. BD2412 T 19:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per recent claims, I have opted not to close this as I was originally going to do as this comment. This recent new information clearly warrants this discussion. Reader of Information (talk) 19:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
IP persistently removing sourced content.
133.209.194.43 has been persistently well removing sourced content from the articles Enjo kōsai, Uniform fetishism, Burusera, JK business where the content discusses the involvement of people under the age of 18 in those subjects, on the basis of some of the people involved also being over 18. Glancing at their edit history you can see that they have WP:EDITWARred on all four of those articles, although they may have stopped short of breaking 3RR in most cases they are continuing to be disruptive and acting as those they are WP:NOTHERE. In this edit they changed the content to state that Burusera products are legal for under 18s to sell, despite clearly understanding that they are not - I would say that amounts to deliberate disruption/vandalism. ---- D'n'B-📞 -- 19:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Courtesy ping, @Cassiopeia and KylieTastic also have tried to warn this IP user. -- D'n'B-📞 -- 19:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- While they don't leave edit summaries except for the section headings, it looks like some of their edits were removing inappropriate content from these articles. Can you provide diffs of edits that you find problematic? Generally, when making an argument that an editor is being disruptive, the OP provides diffs that support that accusation and I don't find the one edit you link to serious enough to issue a sanction. I mean, we are already talking about articles that border the line on pornography. Liz 04:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's the ignoring warnings and lack of discussion that's the issue, so pointing to individual diffs doesn't show the whole picture. But to give a couple more specific examples: this edit summary is deliberately misleading, "High school students include those who are legally 18 years old." is obviously a true statement but doesn't relate to the content being removed - which is about Australia's laws on the matter do apply to adults. pretty much the same thing here. I can't see any instance where they removed removed inappropriate content - rather they seem focussed on removing content that mentions any laws. -- D'n'B-📞 -- 06:38, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- While they don't leave edit summaries except for the section headings, it looks like some of their edits were removing inappropriate content from these articles. Can you provide diffs of edits that you find problematic? Generally, when making an argument that an editor is being disruptive, the OP provides diffs that support that accusation and I don't find the one edit you link to serious enough to issue a sanction. I mean, we are already talking about articles that border the line on pornography. Liz 04:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
92.22.27.64 is edit-warring and abusing editors at Racism in the United Kingdom and on talk
Blocked The Bushranger One ping only 21:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 92.22.27.64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Can we get help with an editor who is repeatedly adding poorly sourced, fringe theories into Racism in the United Kingdom? They have been warned several times (here, here, here and here). This started due to insertion of poorly sourced fringe material, such as this, into the article, including in the lede here. Then there was some edit warring here, here and here. Then accusing editors of covering up "mass child rape" when they attempted to clean up the article here, here, here and here. The editor doesn't want to engage and keeps reinserting dubious text, including implications about BLPs. Lewisguile (talk) 19:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also note the causal transphobia as well definitely neads a block. Lavalizard101 (talk) 20:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looks like the IP has been blocked for a week. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:36, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit warring on US politicians around the Gaza genocide
The Lord of Misrule is blocked for edit warring and there is no merit to their retaliatory report. If disruption returns when the block expires, escalating sanctions can be considered. Star Mississippi 04:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- The Lord of Misrule (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I'm getting caught up into an edit war with The Lord of Misrule (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) regarding the so-called "Gaza genocide" on Nancy Mace, Antony Blinken, and Linda Thomas-Greenfield. Rather than continue, I am extricating myself and bringing their conduct here. From my attempts on their talk page, including the Arab-Israel, BLP, and American politics (post 1992) contentious topic warnings, are going unheeded. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Any so-called "commentary" has been removed, ie "complicity" and now just facts related to the subject and topic remain, yet here we are. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 20:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will note, per the International Criminal Court, any material support for War Crimes, like funding or vetos allowing war crimes to continue in the UN Security Council, are themselves War Crimes https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Elements-of-Crimes.pdf Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless you can find a RS to back that up, that would be OR. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- I just reverted TLoM's most recent edit,
has vetoed 5 ceasefire agreements.
when the source saysvetoed five resolutions, including three calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, one Russian oral amendment, and a proposal for full Palestinian membership in the U.N.
The three ceasefire vetoes are already documented in the article. Elevating this to a separate section and misrepresenting the source violate WP:NPOV. I question whether TLoM should be editing BLPs. Schazjmd (talk) 21:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)- I find this editors removal of information vs an easy correction of the word "agreement" to "resolution" troubling at best and biased at worst. This section is ripe for expansion as more scholarly works will be forthcoming. It seems the editor would rather delete this information rather than correct and provide more information. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- If
more scholarly works will be forthcoming
, then the sections can be expanded when those works forthcome. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- If
- I find this editors removal of information vs an easy correction of the word "agreement" to "resolution" troubling at best and biased at worst. This section is ripe for expansion as more scholarly works will be forthcoming. It seems the editor would rather delete this information rather than correct and provide more information. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Muboshgu, they were provided with a CTOP notice for ARBPIA by @ScottishFinnishRadish on the 17/02/2024. Should this perhaps be best addressed at WP:AE? TarnishedPath 21:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- No need. Blocked for two weeks for edit warring on three pages in violation of WP:BLPRESTORE. If it continues after the block, please simply let me know on my talk page (or re-report here and feel free to notify me). ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Will do. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given the thread below I think we should discuss a topic-ban here and now, rather than going thru AE. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 21:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Perhaps. I was going to initially bring this to 3RRNB but decided to bring it here. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- No need. Blocked for two weeks for edit warring on three pages in violation of WP:BLPRESTORE. If it continues after the block, please simply let me know on my talk page (or re-report here and feel free to notify me). ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Removal of legitimately sourced information concerning ongoing Genocide in Gaza
Retaliatory. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Bbb23 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has removed legitimately sourced information regarding the subject's involvement with the Gaza Genocide. Cheers The Lord of Misrule (talk) 21:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- What subject? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger, see the directly above discussion. TarnishedPath 21:39, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Tendentious editor
Single purpose account NicolasTn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is reverting again . They want to expand the lead which is disputed. They have been warned not to edit war. They claim to "restore deletion" most of which introduced by them to the lead, but in the process removing other sourced information and adding back errors. They know where to discuss edits but avoid doing so as much as they can, so I don't think enough discussion exists to initiate dispute resolution. Previous ANI. Vacosea (talk) 23:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- It looks like this article page history has been an edit war between the two of you. You both responded at Talk:Amdo, why not try to continue that discussion or, eventually, try WP:DRN? Neither of you have had made much use of the article talk page which is where this discussion should be happening. Liz 02:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll just note that this editor, who has only made 51 edits, hasn't edited in 3 days so they may not respond here immediately. Liz 02:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- They would probably respond only after being reverted again by me or the other editor. Since their one and only response, they've left the discussion hanging again while actively editing the article. Vacosea (talk) 20:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Adillia
Aidillia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I've been avoiding that user ever since we were blocked for edit warring on File:Love Scout poster.png but they keep going at every edits I made, specifically the recent ones on the files I uploaded like File:The Queen Who Crowns poster.png and File:The Trauma Code Heroes on Call poster.png, where the file are uploaded in WP:GOODFAITH and abided WP:IMAGERES but they keep messing up. I'm still at lost and not sure what's their problem with my edits. Additional: I will also hold accountability if I did bad faith.
Note: Aidillia "accidentally" archived this discussion. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 02:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've many proof that shows you're the one who start the problem. Aidillia 03:02, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- File:The Queen Who Crowns poster.png you revert my correct upload which makes me so offended. Aidillia 03:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- File:The Trauma Code Heroes on Call poster.png i upload as per their official social media. But rather used a poster version, and in the end i revert it. Same like what u did to me on File:Love Your Enemy poster.png. I don't know what is this user problem, first upload the incorrect poster than re-upload again with the correct poster which i already uploaded, then need a bot to resize it. (So unnecessary) Aidillia 03:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I reverted that because it was too early to say that the poster is indeed the main one at that time when it was labeled as a character poster by Korean reliable sources. You know that we rely more on independent secondary reliable sources rather on official website or social media accounts as they are primary sources, so I don't know why you were offended by a revert. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 04:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why you don't say this on the summary? or u can just simply discuss it on my talk page. Aidillia 04:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is a volunteer service and WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. I have other WP:OBLIGATION in real life. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 08:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you're that busy, please stop reverting my edits/uploads without any clear explanation. Just like what you did on File:Love Scout poster.png. You will just engaged in WP:EDITWAR. I've also seen you revert on File:Light Shop poster.png; someone reverted it to the correct one (which I uploaded), but you still revert to your preferred version without leaving an edit summary. Aidillia 08:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is a volunteer service and WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. I have other WP:OBLIGATION in real life. 𝙳.𝟷𝟾𝚝𝚑 (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔) 08:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why you don't say this on the summary? or u can just simply discuss it on my talk page. Aidillia 04:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- File:The Queen Who Crowns poster.png you revert my correct upload which makes me so offended. Aidillia 03:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have partially blocked both of you from editing filespace for 72 hours for edit warring. I think an IBAN might be needed here. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support an indefinite two-way interaction ban between D.18th and Aidillia. They've also been edit warring at Close Your Eyes (group). Also look at the move log there, which is ridiculous. These people need to stop fighting with each other. * Pppery * it has begun... 06:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
User:D.18th
Withdrawn. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
D.18th (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user keeps coming to wherever i made an edit. And this user also ignore WP:GOODFAITH. Aidillia 03:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:This user is the most number one who often comes in on my talk page first. But when I came to their talk page, i got restored or, worse, got reverted as vandalism. Aidillia 03:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Aidilla: You have failed to notify D.18th (talk · contribs) of this discussion, as the red notice at the top of the page clearly requires. I know they already reported you above, but they may not be aware of your one in return. You will need to show clear diffs supporting the allegations that you've made; expecting us to act on this report with no such evidence is likely going to result in this not ending well for you. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 04:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Aidillia, you can't remove a post from ANI once it has been responded to by another editor. If you want to rescind your complaint then strike it by using code, <s>Comment</s> which will show up as
Comment. Liz 05:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Done, thanks! Aidillia 05:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Aidillia, you can't remove a post from ANI once it has been responded to by another editor. If you want to rescind your complaint then strike it by using code, <s>Comment</s> which will show up as
User:Azar Altman and User:Farruh Samadov
All of the named parties have been indefinitely blocked with checkuser blocks. Liz 20:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Azar Altman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Farruh Samadov (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Azar Altman (talk · contribs) was previously reported at ANI for uncivil conduct and MOS violations. Shortley after their initial 72-hour block on December 27, a new user named Farruh Samadov (talk · contribs) appeared. One of their edits at Uzbekistan is an emblem before the name of Tashkent, the capital of Uzbekistan, in violation of MOS:FLAG. They did this three more times (, , ). And then Azar Altman reverted again twice (, ), leading me to suspect that Farruh Samadov is a sock puppet. Both users edit in the Uzbekistan topic area and both user talk pages have warnings for MoS violations, but Samadov has never used uncivil language, as Altman did on their user talk and in their second edit I linked. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I opened a sockpuppet investigation a couple hours ago. It is indeed highly suspicious that Farruh Samadov was created only a few hours after this block was imposed. Mellk (talk) 04:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Pinging @Drmies who was involved in the prior ANI and performed the block. TiggerJay (talk) 04:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Suggest these accounts to be blocked as soon as possible if sockpupperty is confirmed. Galaxybeing (talk) 05:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Galaxybeing, yes, that's how that goes. Drmies (talk) 13:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regardless of SOCK, suggest that Azar receive another block of at least a week for continued disruption shortly after the block was lifted. They were reverted twice (as noted above) for the same edit by two different editors (Laundry and Melik). Their most recent edit summary was
Stop discriminating by violating Misplaced Pages rules.
when MOS was specifically mentioned in the prior edit summary and they are abundantly notified about edit warring and not reverting-reverts. TiggerJay (talk) 05:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Suggest these accounts to be blocked as soon as possible if sockpupperty is confirmed. Galaxybeing (talk) 05:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Pinging @Drmies who was involved in the prior ANI and performed the block. TiggerJay (talk) 04:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry in Philippine articles
Request an immediate and extended range block for 49.145.5.109 (talk · contribs), a certified sock of LTA Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Yaysmay15 from editing 2025 in the Philippines and other related pages pending a result of a protection request, the second to have been filed for that page after the first instance of sockpuppetry by the same account was deemed not serious enough. See also Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Yaysmay15. Borgenland (talk) 07:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems like this should be reported at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Yaysmay15, not at ANI. That's where the checkusers are at although they are generally reluctant to connect an IP account with a blocked sockpuppet. Liz 04:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is already confirmed in the SPI. However, as it is an IP account that can't be indeffed, I'd had to check my calendar too often to see when their existing block expires. 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Borgenland (talk) 15:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
VZ Holding
OP has been pointed to WP:UAA. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
VZ Vermögenszentrum - this user named after their company is heavily editing their bank wikipedia page. should be banned or warned at least. --Cinder painter (talk) 12:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is nearly six months since they made an edit. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- yes, you are right. If I see something similar in the future, where should I drop a notice? Cinder painter (talk) 14:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Usernames for administrator attention (WP:UAA, I think), would be the first place to go, followed by WP:COIN, then depending on user response either to the renaming page or to AIV. 2600:1011:B32F:11B9:C884:CFA:FC37:345D (talk) 14:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will jot it down. many thanks Cinder painter (talk) 14:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
SeanM1997
Blocked. - The Bushranger One ping onlyThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User seems to think that sourcing is only clutter and keeps removing source requests and sometimes even sources. This despite WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT and WP:V. Warnings and request completely fall on deaf ears. This is damaging the encyclopedia. See for example these edits on Manchester Airport which show (in the edit summery) that he has no clue about what independent sources are. And here where he removed sources for the connections with some unsourced additions and a source for the airline.
Combined with stories about being a professional in this field, giving him a WP:COI, I think something has to be done. The Banner talk 12:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Reading SeanM1997's talk page is a depressing saga. I have indefinitely blocked the editor for persistent addition of unsourced and poorly sourced content for years, despite being warned repeatedly. The editor can be unblocked if they promise to provide references to reliable sources 100% of the time. Cullen328 (talk) 17:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- It should be noted that SeanM1997 has in the past posted a tweet to support something, then used a news story referencing his tweet as a source to insert into an article. Despite many years and many many conversations, they don't/won't understand the concept of independent reliable sources. Canterbury Tail talk 17:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Deegeejay333 and Eurabia
Much of the activity of the infrequently active user Deegeejay333 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to be attempts to whitewash anything to do with the Eurabia conspiracy theory, attempting to present it as "fact", despite the fact that scholarly sources have consistently defined it as a conspiracy theory (see , ). I think this makes them WP:NOTHERE. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notifed their talkpage . Despite their long periods of inactivity, their most recent activity is today . Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The rest of their edits on unrelated topics seem unobjectionable. I think page blocks would get the job done in preventing further disruption (I can't get around to doing that right now, but that's my two cents). voorts (talk/contributions) 17:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Really? You see nothing wrong with these edits? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah. It does kind of look like this editor is WP:NOTHERE except to do battle with the terrible forces of Misplaced Pages leftism. Simonm223 (talk) 17:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I did a quick look; I didn't look at all of their edits. I agree that edit is also problematic. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- White-washing Bat Yeor was also the very first edit they made at Misplaced Pages as well as their most recent. This is an ongoing issue. see here. Simonm223 (talk) 18:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Really? You see nothing wrong with these edits? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Wigglebuy579579
- Wigglebuy579579 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) keeps engaging in disruptive editing behaviour:
- they created dozens of articles by copy-pasting AI-generated text;
- they ignored all warnings onto their talk page;
- they duplicated draftified articles by simply recreating them.
Miminity and I have been cleaning the mess for hours, warned him several times, but he just ignores everything and starts again. – Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 17:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would support indefinitely blocking this user. Their output is entirely low quality AI-generated slop, and they are contributing nothing of value to the encyclopedia while placing considerable burden on others. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Est. 2021, can you provide some examples so we don't have to search through their contributions? Thank you. Liz 19:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some pertinent examples Draft:Toda_Religion/2 (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and Draft:Indigenous religions of India (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: Examples include:
- among others. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: This editor left a message on my talkpage and again it is clearly written by AI. Here's the link Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 00:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some pertinent examples Draft:Toda_Religion/2 (moved to mainspace by Wiggle and then back to draftspace) and Draft:Indigenous religions of India (exactly the same scenario as previous). These are all obviously AI generated based on their formatting. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:09, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are any of the references in Draft:Pfütsana Religion/2 real or are they all hallucinations? I'm having trouble finding them on web searches. They're also suspiciously old even though there is more recent relevant literature. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The Misplaced Pages:Large language models essay recommends G3 for articles for which text-source integrity is completely lacking. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rsjaffe: Using BookFinder.com, Citation #1, #3 (might be a dupref of 1) does exist but has different author, Citation #2 does exist and is correct. #4 is dupref of #2. A quoted google search and a google scholar search about #5, 8, 9, 11 (The journals does not seem to even exist) yields no result. No result for 6, 7, 9, 10 (Nagaland State Press does not seems to even exist) 12 Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 02:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would like to hear from @Wigglebuy579579, but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Click all the link on the Draft:Toda Religion/2, all of them are {{failed verification}}. Either the page does not exist or the website itself does not exist. The JSTOR sources leads to a completely unrelated article. I think by the looks of it, this draft is safe to delete
- @Wigglebuy579579: care to explain? Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 03:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would like to hear from @Wigglebuy579579, but, if the results of the reference searches on the other drafts are like this, then all those drafts should be deleted as unverifiable. LLM output can look very correct while hiding significant falsehoods, and it will be impossible to sort fact from fiction in those articles if they haven't been validated word-for-word with real sources. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 03:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Est. 2021 and Miminity, thanks for supplying examples that can be reviewed. Liz 04:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
User:BittersweetParadox - Overlinking
- BittersweetParadox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user is persistently MOS:OVERLINKing throughout most of their edits that aren't dealing with categories or redirects, see for example:
I have also recently warned the user on their talk page regarding this, but they have seemingly chosen to ignore that warning, as they are still continuing with the same behavior:
This is also not the first time the issue has been brought up to the user, as they were previously warned in July 2024, where even after claiming to understand the issue/say they won't do it again, continued the same behavior. With their ignoring of warnings regarding overlinking, it unfortunately appears that an ANI discussion may be the only way to solve this ongoing issue, apart from a block. Magitroopa (talk) 17:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Repeated pov pushing
This is a content dispute and ANI is not the venue to resolve those. Hellenic Rebel, you've had multiple editors tell you that you are not correct. Please take the time to understand why. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Hellenic Rebel , despite the disagreements, continues to try to impose his personal opinion, for which he cannot cite any source that justifies him. Clearly original research.
previous reporting of the issue
See also, talk with User:Rambling Rambler 77.49.204.122 (talk) 19:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Replying since I've been tagged. I do think this is a behavioural issue rather than a content one. User has been repeatedly warned on their talk page by several users about edits to the article in question but has belligerently refused to engage in constructive discussion about said edits.
- User was clearly warned about continuing this in the closure message of the last ANI discussion not to resume the edits but the response on the article's talk page was notably dismissive of said warning.
- Quite honestly I think this is a case of WP:IDHT. The user in question has just plead that they have special knowledge we don't and has steadfastly refused to demonstrate in reliable sources the contents of their edits. Despite being informed of how consensus works they have resorted to counting votes and even in that case just dismissing the views of those against him for contrived reasons. Rambling Rambler (talk) 19:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- My friends, anonymous user and @Rambling Rambler, and also dear user and adminis that are going to see the previous POVs. The article had a specific version, which you decided to dispute by causing a correction war, that could easily be seen at the page history. The administrator locked the page in order to reach to a consensus, which obviously couldn't happen, and there was no corresponding participation. Four users in all, the two of us presented our arguments in favor of the original version, Rambling Rambler (and somewhat monotonously and without proper documentation, the anonymous user) presented yours for the version without seats. At the end, you threw in an ad-hominem against me, to top it off. You made a call, no one else did anything, time passed. What makes you believe that the article will remain in your version, while the original was the previous one and there was no consensus?
P.S.: Rambling Rambler, please stop bombing links to wikipedia policies and then trying to interpret them and "fit" them to the issue. This practice resembles clickbait, you are simply trying to show that you are knowledgeable about politics and appear superior, and this is annoying. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 19:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- @Rambling Rambler an admin locked the page, and then anybody respond even if we make pings. That means that they just locked the page because there was an edit war, and and no one dealt with the article. The discussion ended weeks ago and also you've made a public call. If somebody wanted, they would have closed the discussion. So I don't think it's a case of IDHT, because the time intervals in which someone could engage (either to participate in the discussion, or an administrator to close it) had exceeded the normal. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 19:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not going to reopen the content aspect of this here. I have made you aware, repeatedly, of our polices when it comes to including claims. You need to provide reliable sources and the burden is on those wanting to include challenged statements to meet consensus to include them. You have now just admitted there is no consensus yet you felt entitled to reintroduce challenged material.
- This is precisely a "I don't have to" issue. Rambling Rambler (talk) 19:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also tagging @Voorts as they probably have a view on this given their previous action. Rambling Rambler (talk) 19:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler I will prove you that you actually interpret policies as you see fit, and you don't pay attention to what they say. WP:IDHT:
Sometimes, editors perpetuate disputes by sticking to a viewpoint long after community consensus has decided that moving on would be more productive. Believing that you have a valid point does not confer the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told otherwise. The community's rejection of your idea is not because they didn't hear you. Stop writing, listen, and consider what the others are telling you. Make an effort to see their side of the debate, and work on finding points of agreement. Do not confuse "hearing" with "agreeing with".
You can see the bold parts. It's obvious from those, that this policy does not refer to cases where four user with two different opinions participated. It refers to cases where one or a minority of users refuses to accept the community's decision because they believe their opinion is superior. In our discussion, my version never rejected from the community, it was rejected only by you and the anonymous user. In this case, either you believe that the majority or the community in general is you and the anonymous user, or you are simply trying to propagate your position. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 20:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- You were linked WP:ONUS during the discussion and clearly acknowledged it.
- So you are aware of it, which bluntly states:
- The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.
- In your previous reply you have admitted that there isn't consensus.
- You have broken policy and are just once again stubbornly refusing to adhere to it. Rambling Rambler (talk) 20:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler There was a long time period in which we did not have any edit in the discussion. The original version was the one with the seats. The admins at that cases, lock the article at a random version (otherwise there should have been a clarification from the admin). So the lack of consensus concerns your own version, not the original one, to which I restored the article. Finally, I need to point out that you have made a series of problematic contributions, such as misguiding users by referring them to Misplaced Pages policies that are not related to the subject as I demonstrated exactly above, but also the ad-hominem against me which you proceeded together with the anonymous user in the article discussion. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 20:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- This wall of text is the exact problem at hand here. You won't follow our site's policies but instead are just making up your own as to why breaking policy is now fine. The "discussion" was barely dormant and as you admit there was no consensus on including the material you demand be included. Ergo, per policy it can't be included.
- Frankly you are incapable of editing in a collaborative manner. I think the fact that you've been blocked repeatedly both here and at our Greek equivalent for disruptive behaviour and edit-warring demonstrates this very well. Rambling Rambler (talk) 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler The problem here is that you don't understand the policy. The one who needs consensus to make edits, is the one that wants to make a change at the page. In our case, maybe the random version in which the page was locked was your version, but that does not change the fact that you were the one who wanted to make a change. You need consensus, you did not achieved it. Also, that is ad-hominem again, and now you checked and my greek WP blocks? Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is not ad hominem to bring up your history of blocks for edit warring and disruption when the topic of discussion is your conduct.
- The policy, which I quoted for your benefit, literally says the onus is on the person who wants to include the disputed content which is you. You want this claim to be on the article and myself and others have disputed it. Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler there is not such as disputed content. The party has 5 members affiliated with it, and there is source about it. Your edits where those which need consnensus, because you are the one which want to change the original. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The fact myself and others have said it's not supported and therefore shouldn't be there is literally a dispute... Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler yes it is a dispute, but if there is not a consensus that your dispute is valid, the version that remains is the original one, that is also supported by source. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The fact myself and others have said it's not supported and therefore shouldn't be there is literally a dispute... Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler there is not such as disputed content. The party has 5 members affiliated with it, and there is source about it. Your edits where those which need consnensus, because you are the one which want to change the original. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler The problem here is that you don't understand the policy. The one who needs consensus to make edits, is the one that wants to make a change at the page. In our case, maybe the random version in which the page was locked was your version, but that does not change the fact that you were the one who wanted to make a change. You need consensus, you did not achieved it. Also, that is ad-hominem again, and now you checked and my greek WP blocks? Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler There was a long time period in which we did not have any edit in the discussion. The original version was the one with the seats. The admins at that cases, lock the article at a random version (otherwise there should have been a clarification from the admin). So the lack of consensus concerns your own version, not the original one, to which I restored the article. Finally, I need to point out that you have made a series of problematic contributions, such as misguiding users by referring them to Misplaced Pages policies that are not related to the subject as I demonstrated exactly above, but also the ad-hominem against me which you proceeded together with the anonymous user in the article discussion. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 20:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler I will prove you that you actually interpret policies as you see fit, and you don't pay attention to what they say. WP:IDHT:
- There has never been a specific version of the article. A few hours after adding the uncited 5 MPs, the edit was undone. It is also worth noting that the original contributor of the addition about mps, Quinnnnnby never engaged in an edit war or challenged our disagreements, as you did. 77.49.204.122 (talk) 20:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I did, but you also did. So the only user to act properly at that case was @Quinnnnnby. And guess with what opinion Quinnnnby agreed at the discussion... Hellenic Rebel (talk) 20:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Hellenic Rebel:, Rambling Rambler is actually right: if you wish to include text which has been disputed, you must include sourcing. You cannot just attempt to force the content in, regardless of what consensus you believe has been achieved. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HandThatFeeds this is exactly why I am saying that the users propagandize: there was a source used! Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then it's time to discuss that source on the Talk page instead of just ramming into the article. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HandThatFeeds there was a discussion on the page. The source states that 5 MPs of the Hellenic Parliament are in the new party. And the users, after their first argument that it should have a parliamentary group was shot down (as it was obvious that this policy is not followed in any party), they moved on to a logic that the source should say verbatim "5 MPs stand" for the party... Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HandThatFeeds I have lost hours of my life to "discussing" this at this point. They're entirely either refusing or simply incapable of understanding that because they have sources for Claim A that doesn't mean they can put a similar but still different Claim B on the article. They however insist they can because unlike us they're "Hellenic" and therefore know that Claim A = Claim B while refusing to accept this is WP:OR. Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then it's time to discuss that source on the Talk page instead of just ramming into the article. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @HandThatFeeds this is exactly why I am saying that the users propagandize: there was a source used! Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Hellenic Rebel:, Rambling Rambler is actually right: if you wish to include text which has been disputed, you must include sourcing. You cannot just attempt to force the content in, regardless of what consensus you believe has been achieved. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I did, but you also did. So the only user to act properly at that case was @Quinnnnnby. And guess with what opinion Quinnnnby agreed at the discussion... Hellenic Rebel (talk) 20:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler an admin locked the page, and then anybody respond even if we make pings. That means that they just locked the page because there was an edit war, and and no one dealt with the article. The discussion ended weeks ago and also you've made a public call. If somebody wanted, they would have closed the discussion. So I don't think it's a case of IDHT, because the time intervals in which someone could engage (either to participate in the discussion, or an administrator to close it) had exceeded the normal. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 19:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- My friends, anonymous user and @Rambling Rambler, and also dear user and adminis that are going to see the previous POVs. The article had a specific version, which you decided to dispute by causing a correction war, that could easily be seen at the page history. The administrator locked the page in order to reach to a consensus, which obviously couldn't happen, and there was no corresponding participation. Four users in all, the two of us presented our arguments in favor of the original version, Rambling Rambler (and somewhat monotonously and without proper documentation, the anonymous user) presented yours for the version without seats. At the end, you threw in an ad-hominem against me, to top it off. You made a call, no one else did anything, time passed. What makes you believe that the article will remain in your version, while the original was the previous one and there was no consensus?
Automatic editing, abusive behaviour, and disruptive(ish) wikihounding from User:KMaster888
User:KMaster888 appears to be making lightning speed edits that are well beyond the capacity of any human to review, in addition to article content that's coming across potentially LLM-like in nature. Since December they've made over 11,000 edits, many across multiple articles within a sixty second window.
I attempted to ask about the policies around this at User_talk:Novem_Linguae and was met with a tirade of obscenities and abuse (which I want to give them a slight benefit of the doubt on, I'd be upset at being accused of being a bot if I wasn't):
As far as I can tell this peaked with a total of 89 edits in a four minute window between 08:27 to 08:31 on December 28, 2024. Most are innocuous, but there are content edits thrown in the mix and recent articles were written in a way that indicates it may be an LLM (diff not definitive, though if you are familiar with LLM output this may ring some alarm bells, but false alarms abound).
Following the quite hot thread at User:Novem Linguae's page, it's quite clear that whoever is operating that bot threw my entire edit history into the mix, because the bot systematically edited every single article that I had edited, in reverse order (over 100 so far since this came up about an couple of hours ago), going back a reasonable amount of time.
The problem is that it's clear that a bot was instructed to just make an edit, without concern for what those edits are, so you end up with questionable, misrepresented, or edits for the sake of editing at a rate far faster than any editor could address.
This one is easily one of the strangest situations I've ever encountered on Misplaced Pages. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 20:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm flattered that you've looked into my activity on Misplaced Pages so closely. But if you'd be arsed, you'd understand that it is very simple to do an insource search using a regular expression to find a lot of stylistic errors, like no space after a sentence. If you love being on my back so much, good on you, but I'd wish if you got off. KMaster888 (talk) 20:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- 1) That doesn't explain how consistently abusive you have been
- 2) While I'm aware that an overwhelming percentage of the errors you're editing out are ones that can simply be addressed by regex, I'm very clearly raising the content edits as opposed to formatting ones. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 20:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- How about we take this off of ANI, of all places? KMaster888 (talk) 21:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Obviously, if there's someone who's making bad decisions on Misplaced Pages (You), I want to check if he has messed up articles. Please tell me what articles you think I have damaged. KMaster888 (talk) 21:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, I'd appreciate if you would stop casting aspersions about me being an LLM. KMaster888 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. KMaster888 (talk) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Unless you're doing regex with your eyes, clearly you're using assistance. And the fact you're (still!) doing something that fixes the same type of typo almost as fast as I can click "Random Article" indicates you're doing more than just regex. You're finding these articles somehow.closhund/talk/ 22:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- I am doing an "insource" search using regex. KMaster888 (talk) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ah . I wasn't aware one could do that. I retract. closhund/talk/ 22:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I learned about insource searches recently and was able to find spam by the boatload immediately. It is a great tool. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am doing an "insource" search using regex. KMaster888 (talk) 22:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There was no assisted editing. Stop spreading that blatant falsehood. This is why I say to take this off of ANI. It is stuff that is made up in your head that has no basis in reality. KMaster888 (talk) 21:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I said then, and as I'll say again: If there's not an LLM involved in this situation, then I'm sincerely sorry. It was a combination of clearly assisted editing and the verbiage used that looked concerning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And, I would appreciate if you would stop calling my edits strange and odd. KMaster888 (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You had over 100 edits in a row directily in chronological sequence, from newest to oldest, of my exact edit history excluding wikiprojects and talk pages. I'm allowed to find that a little strange. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why shouldn't someone call strange and odd edits strange and odd? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, this feels quite appropriate considering your abusiveness and that your retaliation involved damaging some articles. I said there I was asking a policy question and was happy to let it go, you've edited over 100 articles from my edit history in direct sequence in response to that question, which is just strange behaviour for an editor. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 21:04, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KMaster888 I suggest you stop with the personal attacks before you get blocked. Tarlby 21:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that KMaster888 should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. KMaster888 (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'll just ask you straight up.Do you feel any remorse for this statement?
remove asshole
Could you explain why you felt it was best to choose those two words when blanking your talk page? Tarlby 21:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- And again:
@The Corvette ZR1 @Tarlby stop clogging up ANI with your comments.
The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 22:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And again:
- I'll just ask you straight up.Do you feel any remorse for this statement?
- I have not ignored policy on either civility or hounding. The fact is, there are no automation tools that I have used, and this has been constructed as a theory entirely as a falsehood. It is annoying that one Misplaced Pages user constantly spouts falsehoods about me. KMaster888 (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- , , , , , Tarlby 21:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And this: improve asinine comment and this: I wipe my ass with comments like yours. Cheers! MrOllie (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. KMaster888 (talk) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You have to abide by the rules like the rest of us. And cool it with the hostile edit summaries. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Great answer. Tarlby 21:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are clearly WP:NOTHERE. Attacking other editors instead of backing off, inappropriate edit summaries, what next? The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There ought to be a gossip noticeboard that doesn't clog up ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will dispute what you said. I AM HERE to build an encyclopedia. Why do you think I would have given 10,000 edits worth of my time if I didn't care? KMaster888 (talk) 21:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, WP:CIVIL and WP:SUMMARYNO tell me the contrary. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries and here indicate they're WP:OBNOXIOUS in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. KMaster888 (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wikilawyering over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of the fourth of the five pillars. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is wikilawyering. And this is at ANI, so the discussion is taking place at ANI. Answering the concerns about your conduct that were raised here on here is how you resolve the issue, not "don't talk about it on ANI", as the latter gives the impression of trying to sweep them under the rug - especially since your edit summaries MrOllie linked above make it clear this is very much not "small potatoes". - The Bushranger One ping only 23:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not Wikilawyering. I would also encourage you to come to a discussion on my talk page over small potatoes instead of at ANI. KMaster888 (talk) 23:19, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wikilawyering over what "collaboration" is doesn't help when you're in blatant violation of the fourth of the five pillars. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The product of Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is a body of written and visual work. It is first and foremost about the product, not the community. In this sense, it is indeed a collaborative encyclopedia, but it should not be considered an encyclopedic collaboation. KMaster888 (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regardless of their editing or otherwise, KMaster888's comments in edit summaries and here indicate they're WP:OBNOXIOUS in a way that indicates an inability to participate in a collaborative encyclopedia. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would say that you are here to build an encyclopedia. Unfortunately, WP:CIVIL and WP:SUMMARYNO tell me the contrary. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 21:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That was because Misplaced Pages's servers literally went down, which didn't allow the PHP form to be processed correctly. I would say the same to you as I said to the other editor: get off my back. KMaster888 (talk) 21:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And this: improve asinine comment and this: I wipe my ass with comments like yours. Cheers! MrOllie (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm a little less forgiving than Tarlby, so I would suggest that KMaster888 should be blocked/banned already. Knowing how to write regular expressions doesn't give anyone the right to ignore policy about such issues as civility and hounding. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's some more diffs of KMaster888 being uncivil. From my user talk page. . I think these are forgivable if in isolation since KMaster888 may be frustrated by false accusations of being a bot, but if it's a pattern, it may need addressing.
- The WP:BLUDGEONING and WP:BADGERING of my user talk page and of this ANI is also a behavioral problem that, if a pattern, may also need addressing. It is disrespectful to interlocutor's time and brainpower to dominate discussions by replying to everything. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. KMaster888 (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The problem isn't you responding to those comments. It's about HOW you responded to those comments. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- There are, in fact,
specific discussion rules
- WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless there are specific discussion rules, I should not be penalized for responding to comments that involve me. KMaster888 (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Propose indefinite block
Blocked and TPA revoked. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- KMaster888 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- You're saying "they" like it's more than one person. I am one editor. KMaster888 (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not in that sense. We use they/them pronouns as to not assume an editor's gender. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 23:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per above reasoning. MiasmaEternal☎ 23:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looks like Cullen328 beat us to that indef. MiasmaEternal☎ 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Their blank talkpage, on which they encourage discussion, has a nonexistent archive. Miniapolis 23:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- That is not true. The archive page is at the subpage of the talk page, /archive. KMaster888 (talk) 23:45, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support - While I wouldn’t have had the same suspicions about their editing as Warren, their extremely uncivil reactions to it and further questions here, along with the further attention they’ve drawn on to prior recent behaviour has effectively demonstrated an unwillingness to engage in meaningful interaction with any other editor who disagrees with them. Rambling Rambler (talk) 23:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe revoke TPA too? This is beyond the pale. closhund/talk/ 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- After their latest personal attack, I have revoked their talk page access. Cullen328 (talk) 23:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. This personal attack against blocking admin Cullen328 is beyond the pale. This is clearly a person that lets rage get the best of them, and is not responsive to feedback. Not sure if we should close this, or let it play out and turn into a CBAN. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:17, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good block and I'd have done same if you hadn't been here first. Regardless of whether the edits were improvements, no one has the right to treat other editors as KM888 did. Star Mississippi 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good block It'd take a hand-written miracle from God for them to change their ways anytime soon.
Investigating the hounding claim
Above, there is a claim that KMaster888 is WP:HOUNDING Warrenmck by editing 100 pages that Warrenmck has edited. The editor interaction analyzer suggests that there's only an overlap of 45 pages (42 if you subtract out my user talk, KMaster888's user talk, and ANI). Warrenmck, can you please be very specific about exactly which pages overlap? Maybe give a link to KMaster888's contribs and timestamps of where this range of hounding edits begins and ends? This is a serious claim and probably actionable if enough evidence is provided. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note that there are >100 edits across the pages, since they tended to edit in a spree. The number of pages you found seems accurate, even accounting for the possibility of a few outside of this exchange. I’m not sure what exactly I can do to show the relationship to my edit history beyond I guess go pull said histories and compare them? But I wouldn’t be surprised if the vast majority of the interactions you see were from that narrow window after your talk page.
- Sorry for the drama, by the way. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 01:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ah that makes sense. I didn't think of the multiple edits to a page thing. No worries about the drama. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please don't apologise for this. Nobody should have to put up with such behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:47, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
User:FMSky
WP:BOOMERANG. PolitcalPoint blocked for a month for BLP violations. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
FMSky (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:FMSky has been persistently engaging in disruptive editing by constantly reverting (see , , and ) in bad faith over the course of more than a week in order to prevent the insertion of sourced material that states that Tulsi Gabbard had "touted working for her father’s anti-gay organization, which mobilized to pass a measure against same-sex marriage in Hawaii and promoted controversial conversion therapy", which is a discredited, harmful, and pseudoscientific practice that falsely purports to "cure" homosexuality.
" backed by two reliable sources cited (see and ) in support of the specific wording inserted into the article.
For my part, I have consistently maintained a strict self-imposed policy of 0RR, never even once reverting User:FMSky, listening to his concerns and taking his concerns seriously, tirelessly working to address his concerns with two reliable sources cited (see and ) in support of the exact same wording that User:FMSky originally objected to (see ), then, when reverted again by User:FMSky, I patiently continued to assume good faith and attempted to engage with him directly on his talk page not once but twice (see and ), which he pointedly refused to respond to on both occasions, then when reverted yet again by User:FMSky (see ), explained to him the entire series of events (see ), which User:FMSky replied to by blatantly lying that I had not addressed his concerns (see ), which, when I pointed that out and showed him the reliable sources that I cited in order to address his concerns (see ), User:FMSky replied by saying verbatim "How is that even relevant? Just because something is mentioned in a source doesn't mean this exact wording is appropriate for an encyclopedia." (see ).
I'm completely exasperated and exhausted at this point. If even using the exact same wording as the reliable sources cited in support of the specific wording inserted into the article is still unacceptable to User:FMSky, then I'm not sure what I'm even supposed to do to satisfy him. User:FMSky is clearly engaging in disruptive editing in bad faith and is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- @PoliticalPoint, your source for "discredited, harmful, and pseudoscientific practice that falsely purports to "cure" homosexuality" doesn't mention Gabbard or Hawaii or her father's organization. Have you read WP:SYNTH? Schazjmd (talk) 23:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- More the case that trying to assert conversion therapy as discredited is a COATRACK, unless there was appropriate sourced coverage that associated Gabbatd with supporting a discredited theory. We can leave the blue link on conversion therapy carry the worry of explaining the issues with it, it doesn't belong on a BLP. — Masem (t) 23:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- The wording does not "imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources" as the latter part of the wording, as supported by the second reliable source (see ), explains what conversion therapy is for the benefit of readers. --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you kidding me lmao. I didn't even notice that. That makes it even worse --FMSky (talk) 23:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Only commenting on this particular angle: @Schazjmd: when dealing with fringe ideas, it is sometimes the case that sources provide weight connecting the subject to a fringe idea but which do not themselves adequately explain the fringe theory. If it's due weight to talk about something like conversation therapy (or creation science, links between vaccines and autism, etc.), we run afoul of WP:FRINGE if we don't provide proper context. These cases are rare, however, and this isn't a judgment about anything in the rest of this thread. — Rhododendrites \\ 02:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- The user was previously blocked and was only unblocked after agreeing to 0RR on BLPs. This was violated in the 3 reverts here and the concerns weren't adressed: 1, 2, 3. See also the previous discussion on PoliticalPoint's talk page that I initiated -- FMSky (talk) 23:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
FMSky replied by saying verbatim "How is that even relevant? Just because something is mentioned in a source doesn't mean this exact wording is appropriate for an encyclopedia.
I love how you, in bad faith, left out the most relevant part that I added: "And the statements weren't even attributed to someone" --FMSky (talk) 23:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)- As already pointed out to you at my talk page (see ), those were edits, not reverts, over the course of more than week, and as also already pointed out to you at my talk page (see and ) your concerns with the wording were in fact addressed with two reliable sources cited in support with the exact same wording that you objected to, verbatim. You are blatantly lying again, as the statement is, in fact, attributed to Gabbard herself as it is she herself who "touted working for her father's anti-gay organization", which is backed by the first reliable source (see ). --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, these were reverts, as the wording I originally objected to was restored numerous times --FMSky (talk) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Those were edits over the course of over a week. The wording that you originally objected to was restored only with two reliable sources that use the exact same wording verbatim. --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you used the same wording as the sources without an attributed quote you've committed a copyright violation. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:16, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Those were edits over the course of over a week. The wording that you originally objected to was restored only with two reliable sources that use the exact same wording verbatim. --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:57, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- Restoring removed content even without using the undo feature is a revert. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, these were reverts, as the wording I originally objected to was restored numerous times --FMSky (talk) 23:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- As already pointed out to you at my talk page (see ), those were edits, not reverts, over the course of more than week, and as also already pointed out to you at my talk page (see and ) your concerns with the wording were in fact addressed with two reliable sources cited in support with the exact same wording that you objected to, verbatim. You are blatantly lying again, as the statement is, in fact, attributed to Gabbard herself as it is she herself who "touted working for her father's anti-gay organization", which is backed by the first reliable source (see ). --PoliticalPoint (talk) 23:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Besides removing obvious SYNTH, I notice that FMSky reworked unnecessary overquoting; looks like good editing on FMSky's part. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Another thing I just noticed is that the article is special-protected: "You must follow the bold-revert-discuss cycle if your change is reverted. You may not reinstate your edit until you post a talk page message discussing your edit and have waited 24 hours from the time of this talk page message."
No such discussion was initiated on Gabbard's talk page --FMSky (talk) 00:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have blocked PoliticalPoint for a month for BLP violations, an escalation of their prior two-week edit warring block. I had originally intended to just p-block them from Gabbard but I am not convinced they understand the issue and that the problematic editing wouldn't just move to another page. Should they eventually request an unblock I think serious discussion sould happen w/r/t a a topic ban on BLPs or American Politics. Star Mississippi 01:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating WP:BEFORE
- Bgsu98 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.
I noticed an editor named Bgsu98 who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by WP:BEFORE before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)
I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought.
I should note that Bgsu98 doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated Kamil Białas (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kamil Białas (2nd nomination)). One can really wonder why he does this.
P.S. More information is here: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Figure Skating#Notability guidelines. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE. It seems that no one acted on this change until Bgsu98 came.
P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time.
P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while Bgsu98 has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (source). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @Moscow Connection or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @Bgsu98 who is nominating based on community consensus. Star Mississippi 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. Liz 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- "However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules."
— They don't meet WP:NSKATE, but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet WP:GNG. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require WP:GNG, so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.
(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates WP:BEFORE, otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no WP:BEFORE research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".
Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping BeanieFan11 and Doczilla. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates WP:BEFORE, otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no WP:BEFORE research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".
- Moscow Connection claims to be polite, yet wrote the following: "random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom". Pinging Shrug02 who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time.
- He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hanna Harrell: "By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated Kamil Białas 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"
- I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. Moscow Connection seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- C'mon, User:Bgsu98, civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. Liz 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I apologize, Liz; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my take, User:Bgsu98. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. Liz 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @Moscow Connection to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @Liz I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @Moscow Connection is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @Bgsu98 and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while Bgsu98 directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)
Also, a note to admins: Can it be that Bgsu98 finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".
And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- @Moscow Connection I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @Bgsu98 pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @Bgsu98, making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @HyperAccelerated's comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. Shrug02 (talk) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- According to this, "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Moscow Connection
- Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people."
- No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion.
- If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep.
- I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon.
- All the best to everyone involved. Shrug02 (talk) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Moscow Connection wrote the following in his original complaint: ”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.” I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met WP:GNG, the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. Bgsu98 (Talk) 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Moscow Connection I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @Bgsu98 pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @Bgsu98, making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @HyperAccelerated's comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. Shrug02 (talk) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while Bgsu98 directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)
- As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @Moscow Connection to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @Liz I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @Moscow Connection is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @Bgsu98 and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my take, User:Bgsu98. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. Liz 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- C'mon, User:Bgsu98, civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. Liz 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...
(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.
(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's exactly the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.
(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. Ravenswing 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- “Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria (
What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.
), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. — - Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a WP: BOOMERANG. HyperAccelerated (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ValarianB (talk) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often really poor; many are simply
Non-notable figure skater
, which doesn't say much of anything. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)- I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- And @Moscow Connection, you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- And @Moscow Connection, you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Potential company editing?
Closing by OP request. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Bouchra Filali (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Djellaba (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
The user Bouchra Filali uploaded this image to the page Djellaba. They share a name with a fashion company and seem to have replaced the original image on the article with a product from their company (see revision 1268097124). I reverted their edit and warned them, but due to my concern, and following advice from an administrator on the wikimedia community discord, I am reporting this here as well. I have also asked for advice on what to do with the commons file, and will be filing any necessary reports there. Cmrc23 ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ 04:49, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- They have only made one edit on this project which was adding an image to an article, it looks like they uploaded the image on the Commons. Have you tried talking about your issues with them on their Commons user talk page, Cmrc23? This doesn't seem like it's a problem for the English Misplaced Pages. We don't even know if they'll be back to make a second edit. Liz 06:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I asked the commons folks on discord and it seems that, since they uploaded an image that they own, all is well. I have to admit that I was a little hasty here, I've never used this noticeboard before. Feel free to close this if you feel there is nothing more to discuss, I'll monitor the user in question. Cmrc23 ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ 06:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Smm380 and logged out editing
- Smm380 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 195.238.112.0/20 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)
I have warned this editor twice about logged out editing because they are evidently editing the article history of Ukraine both logged in and as an IP. This makes tracking their edits more difficult since they have made hundreds altogether in recent months (and they are only focused on this specific article). The IP edits seem to come from 195.238.112.0/20 (at least most of them) and they are often made shortly before/after Smm380 decides to log back in. See for example this edit by Smm380 and this edit by the IP a few minutes later regarding the same section. This is now especially a problem because they are deciding to make reverts as an IP.
In general, they have not listened to prior warnings. I have given them multiple warnings about adding unsourced text, but they are still continuing to add unsourced text without including citations first. But they have not responded to any of my warnings or explained why they are still doing this. Mellk (talk) 09:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I noticed the concerns raised regarding edits made both from my account and an IP address, and I’d like to clarify that this was neither intentional nor malicious. I simply forgot to log into my account while making those edits.
- I apologize if this caused any confusion. My sole intention was to improve content related to Ukrainian history, a topic I am deeply passionate about.
- Regarding the delayed response to your messages, I sincerely apologize. I hadn’t noticed the notifications until recently, as I was unfamiliar with how Misplaced Pages’s messaging system works. Now that I understand it better, I’ll ensure to respond more promptly in the future.
- I truly appreciate the valuable work you do to maintain the quality and reliability of Misplaced Pages. I will make sure to contribute responsibly and stay logged in during my future edits. Smm380 (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Another not here IP
2601:18C:8183:D410:1D8C:39C9:DCEE:1166 (talk · contribs) is altering another users posts to insert political commentary ] as well as making PA's, with a clear statement they do not intend to stop ], and edit warring over it as well. Slatersteven (talk) 14:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Now past 3rr reinsertion of their alteration of another users post. So its now vandalism. Slatersteven (talk) 14:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
As well as this tit for tat report ]. Slatersteven (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- IP blocked for edit warring. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Heritage Foundation planning to doxx editors
See current discussion on Heritage Foundation talkpage. Various sources are beginning to report on this, see , . It seems they plan to “identify and target Misplaced Pages editors abusing their position by analyzing text patterns, usernames, and technical data through data breach analysis, fingerprinting, HUMINT, and technical targeting,” and “engage curated sock puppet accounts to reveal patterns and provoke reactions, information disclosure,” and “push specific topics to expose more identity-related details.” An IP user on the discussion page says "they intend to add malicious links (sources) that will set cookies, grab your IP, and get tracking going for your device. This has likely already started. Be careful, there are lots of ways to hide where a link goes." Photos of Japan (talk) 17:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think there's a far more productive discussion going on at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. BusterD (talk) 17:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- A friendly reminder: It's always a good time to review the strength and age of account passwords, plus consider two-factor verification. The world is constantly changing... BusterD (talk) 17:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Isn't doxing a federal/punishable offense in ten states (more or less), including DC? If they grab the information of or out a minor, that can easily be taken on as a form of harassment and won't end well. EF 17:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)