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| == Christian perspectives in articles about other religions == | |||
| {{re|StAnselm|p=,}} to answer your question in ], I think your third sentence answers your first question. I added the content in question precisely to avoid this essay giving off the impression that all articles on religious topics should weight things toward the largest religions, as ''that would be systemic bias''. An article on a Jewish text of little relevance in Christianity should not have 1,300 words on its significance in Christianity and 300 on its significance in Judaism. You're welcome to disagree with that perspective, but I don't think that your disagreement would be consistent with this essay, which takes the opinionated stance that Misplaced Pages's goals are "inhibited by systemic bias created by the shared social and cultural characteristics of most editors, and it results in an imbalanced coverage of subjects and perspectives on the encyclopedia." Putting more focus on what Christians think of a Jewish topic is "imbalanced coverage". | |||
| And, why is it especially an issue with Christian POVs? Because, again, this is an essay on ''systemic bias''. The majority of English Misplaced Pages editors come from countries where Christianity is the predominant religion. Someone adding 1,300 words on Buddhist perspectives on the Zohar would be ''bias'', but not ''systemic bias''. It's also not something that tends to happen. For instance, I'm sure there ''are'' some Buddhist perspective on the Zohar, but in 20 years of that article existing no one's taken the time to add them. That should tell you why Christian perspectives are "especially" prone to causing bias. Just like white perspectives are more than black perspectives, male perspectives more than female perspectives, cisgender perspectives more than transgender perspectives—the point of this essay. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she/they)</span> 20:00, 13 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :{{re|StAnselm}} It's fine if you don't want to respond to the above, ], but if you don't plan to, I'd like to restore the material I added. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she/they)</span> 03:30, 16 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| =="Average Wikipedian"== | |||
| I just noticed that the data that the Average Wikipedian demographics is cited to over a decade old and concerns the German Misplaced Pages. Has there been any recent sources of information about the demographics of who edits the English Misplaced Pages? The growing dominance of editors who use mobile devices might have changed these characteristics which are basically presented as facts for this language Misplaced Pages. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 20:53, 5 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :I added some published in 2013 that I found at the meta page. With appropriate attribution, these may be helpful sources: ; (via the Gender Gap page). ] (]) 21:21, 5 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::I added a 2010 source, though it cites the same 2005 survey. That survey definitely doesn't concern only the German Misplaced Pages though. The survey was conducted by Universität Würzburg, but it did cover the English edition. {{u|Liz}} would you consider striking that statement about the survey only concerning the German Misplaced Pages? It might cause confusion. | |||
| ::More recent studies would be great, I agree.] (]) 22:41, 5 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Average Wikipedian 2. == | |||
| Point number 5 is {{Tq|an English speaker (native or non-native)}} | |||
| No shit sherlock. Pretty sure you have to understand the language of the Misplaced Pages edition you're working on in order for your contributions to be sensible. ] (]) 15:17, 3 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == CHOPSY and Academic bias== | |||
| Please comment on ], which is systemic by design on wikipedia, and strongly defended by its proponents as a necessary way of combatting pseudo-science and fringe theories. | |||
| == Barnstar == | |||
| I have drafted an essay in response alleging systemic bias in Western Civilization itself, in the church, in academia, and in mainstream news and politics, to argue that CHOPSY is not always "Neutral". | |||
| Shouldn't the project's barnstar (currently the {{tlp|Systemic Bias Barnstar}}) be the Anti-Systemic Bias Barnstar? Consider: | |||
| Also earlier sections may be relevant: | |||
| * {{tlp|The Anti-Wikibullying Barnstar}} not the Wikibullying Barnstar | |||
| {{slink|User:Jaredscribe/Diatribes}} Especially the bottom three sections are relevant in discerning how CHOPSY (and the way it is applied here), may or may not be implicated in a systemic-bias that I alleged to exist on Misplaced Pages against non-native speakers of english, Asians, Africans, Arabs, and a peculiar case of bias against Jews. This is still only a draft, and I don't intend to publish it outside my user space, as it represents my own view that I wish other to consider and respond to for a year or three before trying to form any consensus around it. | |||
| * {{tlp|The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar}} not the Vandalism Barnstar | |||
| * {{tlp|Anti-Spam Barnstar}} not the Spam Barnstar | |||
| * {{tlp|The Anti-Flame Barnstar}} not the Flammable Barnstar | |||
| Ping {{ping|FormalDude}} as the template's creator. I don't think this would be controversial, but I could list it at ] if it deserves more attention. – ] (]) 23:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :{{Doing}} Okay, I'm going to go ahead and change it, and fix all the {{blue|What links here}} links. – ] (]) 15:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC) {{done}}. I think that's it. – ] (]) 16:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Coverage of indigenous topics in English-language Misplaced Pages == | |||
| I would appreciate feedback both on the existing CHOPSY bias and my essay in response, and suggestions on how we can all improve in collaborating on this ] | |||
| Currently, the text acknowledges certain groups of people are underrepresented demographically in ]. | |||
| Regards, ] (]) 09:46, 3 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| However, content might be biased too. There's a recent study that looked at Australia-related articles. | |||
| == Witchcraft == | |||
| {{tq2|To engage with place in the Australian context is inevitably an engagement with settler-colonialism. This research concludes that First Nations histories, current experiences and voices remain marginalised on Misplaced Pages, reflecting the literature (Thorpe, Sentance & Booker 2023; Gallert et al. 2016; Bjork-James 2021). There are other omissions as well. Lucas argued that “basically any non-white experiences or non-dominant experiences are omitted.” Gabriel felt that Misplaced Pages was “quite a hostile space to marginalised people” and that there is “a really frustrating lack of space, I suppose, to me in all three elements: being a regional Australian; being queer; being disabled. None of them feel like something that Misplaced Pages really quite welcomes a lot of the time.”}} | |||
| There's a discussion at ] about traditional vs western/pop culture/neopagan definitions of the word, and which to prioritize in the lead of ]. Input was solicited at the Neopagan wikiproject and that is currently dominating the discussion. - ] <sup>]</sup> ] 17:29, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Should we add a few more sentences about this into the project page? ] (]) 14:18, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm pretty sure the contents of this essay come down on the side of the people arguing for the modern witchcraft definition (or at least ''against'' the one that explicitly calls it evil or harmful). There are reams of academic gender/religious studies that point out how the "traditional" definition is the literal embodiment of systemic repression and codified bias. And the person who notified the Neopagan group says they notified all the projects listed; I verified the notification on the Religions project. ] (]) 12:00, 11 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I am not confident in this piece of research. It is true that many areas are underrepresented on Misplaced Pages. However, the analysis presented is odd. On the quoted text, the idea that en.wiki is unwelcoming to the queer community is a striking claim; the way en.wiki handles LGBT topics is very progressive, especially in an international view. The systematic bias for the treatment of the queer/lgbt lends heavily towards western countries, and to the progressive views within them. I am not sure how regional Australians are being discriminated against either.{{pb}}On the topic of how articles are written, I note this paragraph: <small>"The article headings also contribute to locate each place in space and time: history, geography, demography, culture. The Australia and Tasmania pages have sections on government and economy, the Katoomba page includes sections on tourism–a major industry in Katoomba–and heritage listings. This small sample suggests that Misplaced Pages’s editors are primarily focussed on locating and ranking places on the surface of the globe. What matters most is how a place fits into the geographical and political divisions of the human world. On the one hand, this is an objective focus—the meaning of a place to its inhabitants is relatively unimportant. On the other hand, this is an anthropocentric focus—the meaning of a place to non-human entities is at best only secondary."</small> It is likely true that Misplaced Pages articles focus on locating places on the globe as opposed to meaning, however this isn't due to "the meaning of a place to its inhabitants is relatively unimportant", it's because locating places on the globe is trivially sourceable, and common to every place on the planet. The meaning of a place to its inhabitants is going to be much harder to source and write. The meaning of a place to non-human entities specifically is a further layer of challenge in that respect.{{pb}}I also noticed the claim "More deeply, for a place to even exist in Misplaced Pages, it first needs to exist in the European system of spatial divisions." That just doesn't seem true, all en.wiki would need is sources covering a place. The research does not provide an example we could look at. The desired outcome for place coverage is also contradictory. The researchers state "Country contrasts with the Misplaced Pages notion of “place”" (specifically relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander concept of "Country"), which is true within my personal knowledge. However, the report then offers as a criticism "As a result, country is not represented as a place in Misplaced Pages". If Country contrasts with the Misplaced Pages notion of place, why would it be represented as a place on Misplaced Pages? That would be to misrepresent what Country is, especially, as the report doesn't seem to internalise, as en.wiki has a very global audience rather than simply an Australian one. ] (]) 14:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I really don't think that the Neopagan community is the source of systemic bias, but rather the article itself (until the latest initial corrective edits) displays gross (religious and social) systemic bias, dating back hundreds of years (and also in recent years). Hopefully more-involved editors will be able to come up with reliable sources to correct this. <b>]<small> + ] + ]</small></b> 12:54, 11 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::What most concerns me is the literature building up on this: {{tq|Thorpe, Sentance & Booker 2023; Gallert et al. 2016; Bjork-James 2021}}. So it's not just a single study. There's also this . I can check the other studies as well to see what they say. ] (]) 14:56, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::The Wikiprojects notified were paranormal, horror, skepticism, occult, and anthropology. None of the wikiprojects for the ethnic or cultural groups whose practices are called "witchcraft" on the page were notified. - ] <sup>]</sup> ] 18:25, 11 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::I vaguely remember that paper being discussed at the time, as it bases a lot on named editors, but I don't remember where. ] (]) 16:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm not interested in editor conduct described in those articles. I'm interested in gaps in content that several studies have suggested. ] (]) 16:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 18:32, 8 December 2024
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| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Systemic bias page. |
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Barnstar
Shouldn't the project's barnstar (currently the {{Systemic Bias Barnstar}}) be the Anti-Systemic Bias Barnstar? Consider:
- {{The Anti-Wikibullying Barnstar}} not the Wikibullying Barnstar
- {{The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar}} not the Vandalism Barnstar
- {{Anti-Spam Barnstar}} not the Spam Barnstar
- {{The Anti-Flame Barnstar}} not the Flammable Barnstar
Ping @FormalDude: as the template's creator. I don't think this would be controversial, but I could list it at WP:RM if it deserves more attention. – Reidgreg (talk) 23:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Doing... Okay, I'm going to go ahead and change it, and fix all the What links here links. – Reidgreg (talk) 15:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 
Done. I think that's it. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Coverage of indigenous topics in English-language Misplaced Pages
Currently, the text acknowledges certain groups of people are underrepresented demographically in Misplaced Pages:Systemic_bias#Those_without_Internet_are_underrepresented.
However, content might be biased too. There's a recent study that looked at Australia-related articles.
To engage with place in the Australian context is inevitably an engagement with settler-colonialism. This research concludes that First Nations histories, current experiences and voices remain marginalised on Misplaced Pages, reflecting the literature (Thorpe, Sentance & Booker 2023; Gallert et al. 2016; Bjork-James 2021). There are other omissions as well. Lucas argued that “basically any non-white experiences or non-dominant experiences are omitted.” Gabriel felt that Misplaced Pages was “quite a hostile space to marginalised people” and that there is “a really frustrating lack of space, I suppose, to me in all three elements: being a regional Australian; being queer; being disabled. None of them feel like something that Misplaced Pages really quite welcomes a lot of the time.”
Should we add a few more sentences about this into the project page? Bogazicili (talk) 14:18, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am not confident in this piece of research. It is true that many areas are underrepresented on Misplaced Pages. However, the analysis presented is odd. On the quoted text, the idea that en.wiki is unwelcoming to the queer community is a striking claim; the way en.wiki handles LGBT topics is very progressive, especially in an international view. The systematic bias for the treatment of the queer/lgbt lends heavily towards western countries, and to the progressive views within them. I am not sure how regional Australians are being discriminated against either.On the topic of how articles are written, I note this paragraph: "The article headings also contribute to locate each place in space and time: history, geography, demography, culture. The Australia and Tasmania pages have sections on government and economy, the Katoomba page includes sections on tourism–a major industry in Katoomba–and heritage listings. This small sample suggests that Misplaced Pages’s editors are primarily focussed on locating and ranking places on the surface of the globe. What matters most is how a place fits into the geographical and political divisions of the human world. On the one hand, this is an objective focus—the meaning of a place to its inhabitants is relatively unimportant. On the other hand, this is an anthropocentric focus—the meaning of a place to non-human entities is at best only secondary." It is likely true that Misplaced Pages articles focus on locating places on the globe as opposed to meaning, however this isn't due to "the meaning of a place to its inhabitants is relatively unimportant", it's because locating places on the globe is trivially sourceable, and common to every place on the planet. The meaning of a place to its inhabitants is going to be much harder to source and write. The meaning of a place to non-human entities specifically is a further layer of challenge in that respect.I also noticed the claim "More deeply, for a place to even exist in Misplaced Pages, it first needs to exist in the European system of spatial divisions." That just doesn't seem true, all en.wiki would need is sources covering a place. The research does not provide an example we could look at. The desired outcome for place coverage is also contradictory. The researchers state "Country contrasts with the Misplaced Pages notion of “place”" (specifically relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander concept of "Country"), which is true within my personal knowledge. However, the report then offers as a criticism "As a result, country is not represented as a place in Misplaced Pages". If Country contrasts with the Misplaced Pages notion of place, why would it be represented as a place on Misplaced Pages? That would be to misrepresent what Country is, especially, as the report doesn't seem to internalise, as en.wiki has a very global audience rather than simply an Australian one. CMD (talk) 14:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- What most concerns me is the literature building up on this:
Thorpe, Sentance & Booker 2023; Gallert et al. 2016; Bjork-James 2021
. So it's not just a single study. There's also this . I can check the other studies as well to see what they say. Bogazicili (talk) 14:56, 8 December 2024 (UTC)- I vaguely remember that paper being discussed at the time, as it bases a lot on named editors, but I don't remember where. CMD (talk) 16:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not interested in editor conduct described in those articles. I'm interested in gaps in content that several studies have suggested. Bogazicili (talk) 16:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- I vaguely remember that paper being discussed at the time, as it bases a lot on named editors, but I don't remember where. CMD (talk) 16:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- What most concerns me is the literature building up on this: