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Bbb23's block, revocation of TPA of, and aspersions about Isonomia01

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Isonomia01 (talk · contribs · logs · block log)

TLDR:

1. Bbb23 issued a 7 day block on a newbie for a second revert, after the newbie had stopped engaging in reversion and had went back to discourse. The newbie had previously tried to engage in content discussion on the talk page, and the other user was ignoring this and making false statements on the user's page.
2. It is argued that Bbb23 was involved in the content dispute.
3. Bbb23 made false and disparaging remarks about the user they blocked to try to influence the opinions of other administrators, advocated that the user should be blocked indefinitely without justification, and attempted to influence content consensus discussions with aspersion about the user both before the block, and while the block was in place.
4. Bbb23 accused the user of "refactoring", the user asked for clarification and was ignored, and then Bbb23 revoked TPA for the user while the user was blocked.
5. Editors should not have to worry about administrator tools being applied excessively and over content disputes that can and should be / have been resolved through discussion, without unnecessary drama.

Note: Statements supported by references have (ref) attached. These references can be provided on request, to diffs.

1. Abuse of Administrator Tools

a. Blocking me over a content dispute

To distill the facts as much as humanly possible, I was blocked(ref1) for two reasons (even though only one of these was mentioned in the block justification): (1) a second revert, after which I stopped; after that a warning was issued on my page, and then I was blocked even though I had made no edits, and (2) a frustrated response to the warning template in which the user made false accusations against me and distorted the facts (specifically, the accusation of "disruptive edits", and that I was not engaging in consensus discussion were not just false, but also applicable to the user issuing the warning template). I can't identify anything else significant or remotely relevant that I've done.

I maintain that I had reached consensus properly, and that the talk page should have been utilized by the other parties (this is not incompatible with that I shouldn't have reverted the second time).

I was blocked over a content dispute, where the other parties are choosing not to engage in consensus discussion, and instead resorting to the use of administrator tools, and aspersion, in place of consensus discussion.

The block was issued *without* discussion (or rather subsequent to cursory discussion **without me making addditional edits**), and in spite of my willingness and receptiveness to discussion and to be educated about the rules. It's not like someone told me "a second revert can be considered a breach of the rules in a case like this" (and I continued reverting) prior to the block.

The block was for 7 days, which is an overly long period of time (7x customary(ref2)) for a "first offense" for actual revert warring (bit of a stretch from what I did, considering that I stopped and no discussion or warnings took place prior to me stopping, before blocking me)(ref3).

b. Revoking TPA Improperly & Willful Violation of WP:ADMINACCT

Bbb23 accused me of "refactoring"(ref4). I had no idea what they meant, repeatedly asked them to clarify(ref5) (even quoted the rules that require them to answer my request for clarification(ref6)), and reviewed the edits in question and openly asserted that I am challenging the truth of their statements, and that I am allowed to strikethrough my own text(ref7). They refused to clarify. Again, I have no idea what they were talking about.

I submitted an unblock request, which was declined by Administrator Asilverfox. Their justification for rejecting the unblock request literally has a reply button. I couldn't use reply buttons while I was blocked; I had to edit pages to reply, so I assumed (after I checked the template for indications not to and saw nothing) there was no problem with replying to the rejection (which had a reply button), and did so (within the adjudicated unblock request template).

Without discussion or any attempt at clarification or anything, my TPA was revoked by Bbb23(ref8).

-

2. Lying

a. Indicating that they didn't delete content that I had added(ref9)

I argued in my unblock request that Bbb23 shouldn't have blocked me because they had recently deleted content from my user page(ref10) (in addition to making disparaging remarks about me personally to others during content consensus discussion on Drmies' talk page(ref11)), therefore constituting a content or other dispute / "involvement"(refs12). I made this argument several times(refs14) and it is not reasonable to believe Bbb23 didn't know about this argument. They finally responded to my question, but stated that they had *not* deletete content(ref15). They used the phrase "from this page" (the talk page, as opposed to the userpage). It is unreasonable to believe that they did not know that they had deleted content from my userpage, and it had been specified repeatedl, so their phrasing in their negative response is irrelevant.

b. "Refactoring" and "Distortion"(refs16)

As I stated above (in the Revoking TPA section), Bbb23 accused me falsely of refactoring (the second accusation notwithstanding as petty and irrelevant -- this is about the first accusation) and "distortion"(refA, refB). Their accusation was challenged. They openly refused clarify, and have continued to make this accusation (after being challenged and refusing to clarify), and that I "distort the facts", with no examples or support(ref17), and which I dispute the truth of. As I mentioned in the above section, I reviewed the edits they referred to and all I did was strikethrough my own text, which I'm allowed to do.

-

3. Entangling and discouraging content consensus discussion with personal attacks, aspersions, and their use of administrator tools

During consensus discussion over the content, an Administrator named Cullen (who has stated "It's too emotional for me", and other indications that they no longer want to be involved, so it's not my intent to involve them further) chimed in to the discussion. First Cullen provided Drmies with one of the links(ref18) that I had already provided to Drmies(ref19). They then expressed, and later reiterated, their dissatisfaction that an article was permanetly deleted, and expressed that they didn't know it was up for deletion, and is against its deletion. The article was on the same topic as one of the three sections of my edit, and was made under the content consensus discussion topic that I started on Drmie's talk page (since the article's talk page was being ignored by people deleting content). I had mentioned Cullen's statement on my talk page.

Bbb23 confronted Cullen, and stated that I had mentioned Cullen's statements, and said that I "distort" facts, that me mentioning Cullen's statement was "insidious", that they have blocked me for 7 days, and had revoked my TPA for "refactoring"(ref20 A. and B). This was obviously an effort to influence Cullen's opinion -- *over the content dispute in question*. I have verified that every single part of what I said was precisely true and in context.

Please note that I don't know how to format this template correctly.

User: Bbb23 (talk · contribs · logs) (prior discussion)

Brief explanation of why this action is being reviewed, including why you believe the action should not be endorsed and any background information necessary to understand the action:

These actions are, I believe, contrary to literally all of the applicable principles of Misplaced Pages. Administrators should (a) not block editors over content disputes when those editors are willing to discuss the dispute and to wait until consensus is reached, (b) not use administrator tools in disputes that they are involved in, (c) set a good example, and not engage in personal attacks and disparaging remarks (i.e. aspersions), and have a non-zero degree of civility and courtesy for editors.

"Administrators are not exempt from any of Misplaced Pages's established policies; they are expected to follow them" WP:ADMINCOND Isonomia01 (talk) 16:39, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Comment Pleas use the {{oldid2}} template to revise your submission with diffs. That is, each ref# can stay the same, but you can make it a link to the diff in question, which will help everyone evaluate your complaint. Jclemens (talk) 17:51, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I will provide key diffs tomorrow if I get time. Thank you. Isonomia01 (talk) 06:50, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I will also request that you tighten up your complaint and identify the users you are complaining about near the top of the post. Long rambling posts like the above tend to make my eyes glaze over, i.e., Misplaced Pages:Too long; didn't read. Donald Albury 17:59, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I will attempt to rectify this tomorrow. Thank you. Isonomia01 (talk) 06:51, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I added a TLDR version at the top. I will add diffs to it later (within about 16 hours). Isonomia01 (talk) 15:42, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Endorse as there is no policy violation.You can be blocked for edit warring even if you didn't violate WP:3RR. The length of the block is up to the blocking admin's discretion.I maintain that I had reached consensus properly: No, you haven't. Per WP:ONUS, you have the responsibility to achieve consensus, and consensus was against your edits.Please see WP:REDACT: if anyone has already replied to or quoted your original comment, changing your comment should be avoided. Please also see the section below that: Persistently formatting your comments on a talk page in a non-compliant manner, after friendly notification by other editors, is a mild form of disruption. After you have been alerted to specific aspects of these guidelines, you are expected to make a reasonable effort to follow those conventions. Taking this into consideration, I believe revoking your WP:TPA was allowed by policy.Upon request, Bbb23 has offered you a link to WP:REFACTOR: Refactoring is a redrafting process in which talk page content is moved, removed, revised, restructured, hidden, or otherwise changed.WP:INVOLVED does not apply here: editors should not act as administrators in disputes in which they have been involved. Bbb23 was not involved in that dispute; removing WP:BLP violation from your user page is completely unrelated.I'll note that Administrator Cullen also chimed in on Drmies' talk page, during the consensus discussion that I started there, regarding this edit specifically, and also indicated that he was also unsatisfied with the deletion of content without adequate discussion on this particular subject and stated specifically that he and others had spent a lot of work on content that had been permanently deleted without adequate discussion (other people I know personally are also shocked at the same deletion Cullen was talking about). This is incorrect. Cullen328 said I did not learn about the AfD until the article was gone. and from what I can tell, Cullen328 didn't indicate that the deletion was done "without adequate discussion"; see the AfD in question.Administrators should (a) not block editors over content disputes when those editors are willing to discuss the dispute and to wait until consensus is reached You didn't wait until consensus was reached, instead, you reverted once and twice. Assuming you were right, you are still not allowed to edit war. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 19:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

• Editors are not required to "wait until consensus is reached ".
• I waited 6 months for people to respond on the talk page and no one did. Magnolia had been tagged on Drmies' talk page and did not participate in the consensus discussion there, where consensus WAS reached (with Drmies). Magnolia's talk page is locked. So I reverted. See WP:PRESERVE.
• I've apologized already for the second revert, however I will note that I consciously disengaged from the 'revert war' after that (unlike Magnolia677), did engage in dialogue (unlike Magnolia), and waited. I then received a warning with false accusations from Magnolia, in quick succession with an unjustified 7-day block from Bbb23. I have looked twice now, and I see nothing in the rules saying that a second revert is even against the policies, much less a blockable offense (correct me if I'm wrong). Some language about that should be added to the rule. A newbie mistake does not justify a 7 day block against a newcomer (see WP:BLOCK), and then advocating that they should be indefinitely blocked for no reason.
• I provided 3 examples of Bbb23's involvement, not just 1, and the content that Bbb23 removed from my userpage (which I was using as a sandbox) was on the exact same topic.
• Your entire 3rd paragraph is misleading. I did not do that. The page you link to (which does not construe itself as a rule, but rather merely an explanation and definition of the term) says outright that it's good to "refactor" in some situations. The rules specifically allow me to strikethrough my own text. I did not distort anything (as Bbb23 claimed repeatedly, while advocating that I should be indefinitely blocked, or to influence Cullen's opinion). People should stop trying to make it seem like I was somehow in violation of this. It is false, and constitutes aspersion. The TPA revocation was 100% arbitrary.
• Bbb23 then made false and highly negative comments about me IN the primary consensus discussion to Cullen (as I explained). This discourages editors from even engaging in consensus discussion, and encourages further arbitrary deletions of well-sourced, notable, and ontopic edits under threat of false accusations, improper use of warning templates, followed by excessive use of administrator tools with what doesn't even amount to a lame excuse for the punishment.
• Cullen stated that he and other editors spent 4 and a half years of work on that article, that it was deleted without his knowledge, and that he is unsatisfied with its deletion. My TLDR version was accurate, not verbatim.
• The incivility and misrepresentations were not addressed in your comment. Isonomia01 (talk) 06:48, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

• While the Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle is not mandatory, it is highly recommended that you follow it. You have the WP:ONUS of achieving consensus, and being reverted most likely means that consensus for those edits wasn't achieved.
• Please see this comment by Drmies.
• Please read the first paragraph of WP:EDITWAR: An edit war occurs when editors who disagree about the content of a page repeatedly override each other's contributions. Users who engage in edit warring risk being blocked or even banned. An editor who repeatedly restores their preferred version is edit warring, regardless of whether those edits are justifiable. You could argue that a 7-day block was too harsh, but in my opinion, it's fine.
• The WP:BLP violation might have been about the same topic, but it is still not the same dispute: editors should not act as administrators in disputes in which they have been involved. I think that single comment by Bbb23 doesn't rise to the level of WP:INVOLVED. I'm not sure what the third one is; I'd appreciate it if you could clarify that.
• I believe Bbb23 was referring to you repeatedly and significantly changing your comments after you post them, and you modifying the reviewed unblock template. For the former, see WP:REDACT: Once others have replied, or even if no one's replied but it's been more than a short while, if you wish to change or delete your comment, it is commonly best practice to indicate your changes, which you didn't do. For the latter one, I believe a reasonable person would know not to modify the template.
• I couldn't find anything that was false (please quote what you referred to).
• The article being deleted without adequate discussion is still not what Cullen328 said. The only thing (unless I'm missing something) Cullen328 said was I did not learn about the AfD until the article was gone, which doesn't imply that the deletion was done "without adequate discussion".
• I'm not sure what you're referring to. I would also like to advise you – generally – to please read WP:ASPERSIONS and provide proof for your claims. Thanks. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 18:13, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to respond to this at this time, due to certain messages left here and on my talk page. If I am free to discuss this openly and politely, I may respond later, and I will note that I believe I should be allowed to do so. Isonomia01 (talk) 04:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Again, I apologize for the second revert. I had read that a long time ago, and it was my understanding at the time that I made the second revert that what I did would constitute an edit war. I still think it is vague and subjective, given that the other editors did not engage whatsoever on the talk page (until much later). And I think when a second revert can result in a 7-day block should perhaps either be clarified in that policy (which I would predict that would be difficult), or find some other way of reconciliation.
• It is my personal opinion that I should not have been blocked, because I was willing to hear people out, and because I had stopped reverting. Magnolia re-reverted after I stopped, and it is apparent from the time stamps that I then left discourse on the talk page, and that I waited. I was then blocked by someone who had not attempted to communicate with me.
• You say "While the Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle is not mandatory, it is highly recommended that you follow it." You appear to implying that I did not do that (please correct me if I am wrong) -- and I do not understand why you are implying that. It should be clearly evident from a review of the Sonoma County talk page that that is precisely what I did. I have said this before: if someone had even left a comment on the talk page, I would not have reverted. I would have discussed the matter, and waited until there was community consensus.
• The third example of Bbb23's involvement in the content dispute was his comment to Cullen, in which he stated that my statement was "insidious", that I "distort" things, that he had blocked me, and and that he had revoked my talk page for refactoring, either in an effort to influence Cullen's opinion, or knowing that it would influence Cullen's opinion, in the content consensus discussion.
• I still don't know what you're talking about regarding refactoring. I believe that I did not distort anything. I certainly did not intentionally distort anything. I believe I copied and pasted the template from an above unblock request that had already been adjudicated and that's why it was formatted incorrectly (originally, not that I edited it later or something). The fact that I did not change it is evidence that I was not trying to distort anything and making an effort to leave the historical text in place faithfully.
• It is my perspective that Bbb23's following statement, for example, was aspersion: "The user clearly is unable to edit Misplaced Pages in a collaborative manner. They distort the past to suit their own objectives and cannot be trusted to keep any promises they make about the future."
• I'm not going to cite the rules at this time. I should be allowed to discuss this politely, and to cite the relevant rules. Isonomia01 (talk) 06:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• I think we can agree that this dispute is complicated, it is different from the "usual" edit warring. You have made a good-faith attempt at discussing, although it could have been better (see this comment), and after the second revert, you did attempt to discuss. Taking this into consideration, a 1-week sitewide block does seem too much.
• When I implied that you didn't follow WP:BRD, I said that because BRD states that upon being reverted, you should discuss, but you reverted twice instead, and only restarted the discussion after your second revert being reverted.
• These two comments by Bbb23 1 2 are questionable. I'm curious about what others think about these.
• I'm also unsure what Bbb23 was referring to as "refactoring". You repeatedly editing your comments might be a bit annoying, but I don't think it is grounds for revoking WP:TPA, and those two template errors do seem to be genuine mistakes. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 12:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Of note, the user talk page of the person who was reverting my edits is locked. Otherwise I would have put something on their user talk page (and waited for them to respond, without reverting the edit). This is the same person who was ignoring consensus discussion that they had been pinged in, and who issued the warning template on my page prior to me being blocked even though I had not made any edits after the warning. Isonomia01 (talk) 14:31, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse First of all, the block was certainly defensible, the OP was edit-warring against multiple editors. And there were three reverts, not two. Secondly, the OP says I argued in my unblock request that Bbb23 shouldn't have blocked me because they had recently deleted content from my user page. Yes, they did - they removed a flagrant BLP violation from it. This is an admin action and does not make them WP:INVOLVED ("an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role ... is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area."). I've got as far as these two issues, and find nothing problematic. I may review the rest if the OP manages to format their complaint so that there are relevant diffs. Black Kite (talk) 10:07, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

  • There were only two reverts without discussion and explicit consensus and alteration of the content addressing feedback. The first revert was justified because Magnolia677 was openly refusing to participate in consensus discussion, and their talk page was locked.
  • In hindsight, I shouldn't have made the second revert. I wasn't the only one who revert warred. I was however the only one making any effort to engage in consensus discussion, and I'm the only one who can credibly claim that I didn't know that what I was doing was a violation of (unwritten but apparently standardized) rules. The second revert was a mistake, not a violation of the rules. If there's anything in the rules saying that a second revert is against the rules, or justifies a block, please quote where they say it. Again, this was a mistake, not a blockable offense, and I shouldn't have been blocked per the language of WP:BLOCK.
  • I was using my userpage as a sandbox. Bbb23 involved themselves in the dispute by making disparaging remarks about me in the content dispute both prior to the block, and then again made disparaging remarks in the content consensus discussion, and was partial to another editor who engaged in revert warring worse than I did.
  • I will reformat with key diffs within a few hours. Isonomia01 (talk) 14:00, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

• There were three reverts, because the first one (on 13th December) was restoring material that had been deleted. Two more reverts followed on the 16th. Meanwhile, a BLP violation is a BLP violation regardless of where it is, and any editor can and should remove it immediately. Black Kite (talk) 14:19, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

  • As I explained, the "revert" from 3 days prior was a significantly altered version, after explicit consensus, and I was told to "go for it", which addressed the concerns of the person who deleted the section (2 of the 3 sources were criticized as not meeting Misplaced Pages's standards; I provided at least 4 additional sources).
  • Just to be clear, the content that was removed from my userpage was sourced, and was accurate. And again, it's not just that that constituted involvement. There were two other examples.
  • I'll reiterate: a 7-day block over a good faith mistake (the rules don't prohibit it) (along with 1 single frustrated comment) was excessive, and clearly contrary to the language of WP:BLOCK. The TPA revocation was plainly arbitrary and punitive, and I (and editors in general) shouldn't have to worry about arbitrary misuse of administrator tools moving forward. There were multiple unsupported & false aspersions and personal attacks, along with advocating for an indefinite block (Bbb23's comment here is full of outright lies to try to negatively influence other people) for literally no reason / based on what were objective personal attacks and misrepresentations, in an effort to influence other administrators reviewing the unblock request. I disagree. I apologized for what I did wrong. People should not be defending misuse of administrator tools and personal attacks.
  • I'll reiterate that I'm now going to include key diffs, starting with points that warrant clarification the most. Isonomia01 (talk) 14:54, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse per BlackKite and Kovcszaln6 . User should concentrate on fixing their own conduct issues that led to the block..-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 10:44, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

  • You are the one to whom Bbb23 made disparaging remarks about me, in consensus discussion, prior to them blocking me.Isonomia01 (talk) 14:02, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

    @Isonomia01: Really? I don't recall. Got a WP:DIF for reference? And that in no way changes the validity of my opinion. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 23:12, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I've read over this discussion, and looked into the editor's contributions. I didn't speedy close this - mostly due to WP:ROPE, and the hope that the editor will actually start to hear what the others on this page are trying to tell them. However, I'm going to leave a warning on the user's talk page that if they do not drop the stick, they are likely going to receive an indefinite block. And if the revert warring on Sonoma County, California, continues, they'll be blocked from editing that page, regardless. I'll note here that, after reading this discussion, I very nearly blocked them myself. But I really would like to give them a chance to re-read here and perhaps start to understand why their behaviour is problematic and disruptive. - jc37 22:56, 28 December 2024 (UTC) - Here's the link to the warning, which included subst-ing the warning template: Template:Uw-point. - jc37 23:15, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Well said. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 23:09, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I've been watching this, but refraining from commenting, partly because I don't think it's necessary and partly because I had my fill of reading the lengthy comments from Isonomia01 on their Talk page; it's wearing. However, I'm here to point out that Isonomia01's hardly "dropping the stick": see this edit and this edit. Isonomia01 would do a lot better to work on improving the project with non-controversial edits to article space. This is a user who first edited last May. Since that time, they have made 334 edits. About half of those edits were to user talk space, 75 to article talk space, and 38 to article space. That's all I have to say.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse, for now, for a month, and let’s see how Isonomia01 (talk · contribs) develops from here. Ask Bbb23 to step back from Isonomia01 during this period. Dealing with aggressive newcomers is hard to reconcile with WP:BITE. Perhaps Bbb23 should have better blocked for 30 hours? It’s hard to know without hindsight. SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse block, do not endorse length, which is a bit weird to say I think the block is right but the length is too much, but yes. Bbb23, blocking for a week seems excessive for a first violation with a singular warning, and sitewide even. Good block, but should have been narrowed to the page in conflict, and shortened in duration. 24 hours would have easily sufficed, a week is a bit much. But all the same, Isonomia really needs to drop the stick, because that talk page is a doozy of paragraphs. TPA revocation didn't come soon enough. EggRoll97 08:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  There was not a warning. To be more precise, the user had already stopped reverting prior to the warning. The block was issued without regard for the fact that the user had stopped in the act of reversions. User is allowed to make unblock requests; unless there was something outside the scope of the rules the user did. Isonomia01 (talk) 08:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  You are certainly allowed to make unblock requests. You've mostly used them, I'm afraid, to repeatedly shoot yourself in the foot. Only 11% of all of your edits have been to article space. Please, get back to article space, before someone blocks you for not being here to build the encyclopedia. Leave Sonoma County alone and find something else to improve. I know what happened to you feels unjust. I'm willing to believe it was unjust. But absolutely no one is going to prove it and do anything about it while you're writing these giant WP:IDHT comments and doing nothing to improve the encyclopedia. That's what we're supposed to be here to do. You've got to get back to doing that. -- asilvering (talk) 15:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  • It is my perspective that I was punished over a content dispute, which shouldn't happen. Editors shouldn't have to worry about things like that. The 7-day block, the literal instructions to file an unblock request, the promises of the rules (cited on my userpage), and then the aspersions against me have been, from my perspective, extremely disrespectful toward me, and of my time. From my perspective, it is worthwhile and productive to try to address this before moving forward.
  • This is not the correct venue for consensus discussion regarding the Sonoma County article, or to try to argue that I should not participate in that, at this point in time. There is literally only 1 single person who disagrees with me who either has not reached consensus with me, or with whom I have had a chance to discuss their concerns with. Furthermore, another administrator stated: "As a gesture toward good coverage of policing in Sonoma County somewhere on Misplaced Pages, whether it's the county's article or somewhere else, may I proffer some photos of the sheriff's department and Santa Rosa Police Department staging to intercept protestors during the George Floyd protests?"
  • Further blocks or threats thereof (without specific justification) continuously being put on the table, when my actions have been in strict compliance with the rules, is not appreciated. happen. Editors shouldn't have to worry about things like that. The 7-day block, the literal instructions to file an unblock request, the p
  • You are the one who refactored my usertalk page, deleting meaningful content from it, and accused me of refactoring in your edit summary.
  • All I did in the comment you are responding to is clarify that there was no warning prior to the block. Isonomia01 (talk) 16:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    Lordy. Well, I tried. For the record, regarding You are the one who refactored my usertalk page, deleting meaningful content from it, and accused me of refactoring in your edit summary., my sole edit to Isonomia01's talk page is Special:Diff/1264449314. -- asilvering (talk) 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    You made two edits to my user talk page. The first is when you declined the unblock request, the second was when you refactored the page, deleted my reply to your declination, along with other content. Can confirm on the revision history there are two edits from you. Isonomia01 (talk) 16:38, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    What are you talking about? Asilvering has only ever made one edit to your talk page, and it was declining your unblock request. C F A 16:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

    I wonder if they're confused about Special:Diff/1264595348, which was by Bbb23, but mentioned me in the edit summary, since it restored to my edit. -- asilvering (talk) 16:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse - while we should encourage new users to learn the tools at their disposal and understand what acceptable behaviors they should follow, I see no issues here worth a AAR complaint. - UtherSRG (talk) 15:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Can someone please just indef Isonomia01 as WP:NOTHERE already. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  😲 -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Pppery: Should we take your comment as an endorsement of the block in question? 🤦‍♂️ -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Sort of. I haven't looked closely enough to see if the original edit warring block was justified. But even if it wasn't at the time that was overtaken by events. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:28, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Eeww. FWIW, I don't like "NOTHERE." Misused. WP:CIR or WP:NOTCOMPATIBLE are more fitting. To be clear, what I see in what I've seen of their edits is unrelenting WP:IDNHT, WP:TENDENTIOUS, WP:BLUDGEON, and WP:STICK. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  This is the third time you've encouraged escalation of drama. The first was on Drmies' talk page where you encouraged Bbb23 in his aspersions about me prior him blocking me. The second was when you encouraged JC here when he said he almost blocked me just by reading this. Now you're encouraging someone saying "can someone please just indef Isonomia01" here. My intent here is valid; I believe I was blocked primarily over a content dispute in place of consensus discussion, and then told outwardly that administrators can misuse tools without accountability with the TPA revocation. Regardless of what the consensus here is, I should not be attacked for my actions here, which are strictly allowed under the policies. Isonomia01 (talk) 16:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse per Deepfriedokra above. I'd include personal attacks. An indefinite block is warranted. Doug Weller talk 16:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse: Editor has now been been blocked yet again. I had a conversation with them about their behaviour and I wasn't satisfied then he would address issues with his editing and I'm definitely not satisfied now. I would personally be inclined to remove TPA since the user's siege mentality seems unlikely to change. Fantastic Mr. Fox 17:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Their unblock request has been declined by Acroterion. The editor has continued on their talk page, and I have responded here. - jc37 06:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• It is just amazing how much time this has taken up. The indef block is proper, IMO. Drmies (talk) 18:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

User:Amaury using rollback to revert constructive or good-faith edits without explanation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Action: usage of the rollback privilege – diff 1, diff 2, diff 3, diff 4, diff 5, diff 6, diff 7, diff 8, diff 9, diff 10, diff 11, diff 12, diff 13, diff 14

User: Amaury (talk · contribs · logs) (prior discussion)

Honestly I don't like that I had to come to this, but User:Amaury continues to use the rollback privilege to revert constructive / good-faith contributions without any given reason, despite my clear warning on their user talk page (seen in the "prior discussion" link above, as well as on here additionally). They have not responded to either of those messages, and the fourteen rollback diffs above are from after I posted the warning message about rollback misuse.

Here's an explanation of each diff:

• Diff 1: reversion of a correct grammatical change from 'girl' to 'woman', as the actress is an adult in their 30s now
• Diff 2: reversion of a grammatical change of 'alternate' to 'alternative' which seems better for flow
• Diff 3: reversion of the word 'fever' being wikilinked
• Diff 4: reversion of expansion/updates to the cast list of an article about a TV series
• Diff 5: reversion of a technically correct category addition to a navigational template
• Diff 6: reversion of a new talk page post complaining about the NPOV of an article. While the message may have sounded rude or seemed like an off-topic rant about the person, I don't see how this isn't a valid post criticising the NPOV of the article
• Diff 7: reversion of an actor name being wikilinked. The code of the template at the top may have become "untidied" because of VisualEditor bugs, but comparing the edit before and after the rollback, the untidyness of the code didn't seem to affect the output at all
• Diff 8: reversion of the addition of producers to the infobox of an article about a sitcom. It may be unsourced / original research, but this is not clear vandalism to me
• Diff 9: reversion of the addition of relevant-looking portal templates to the bottom of an article
• Diff 10: same thing as diff 9
• Diff 11: reversion of a copyedit / attempt to improve the grammar/spelling of an article's body text. The copyedit may have been of poor quality but this does not look like blatant vandalism to me
• Diff 12: same thing as diff 11
• Diff 13: reversion of 'Just Fine (2013 theme song)' being wikilinked. This one was a redlink, but to my knowledge there is no rule against adding redlinks that have a possibility of becoming blue in the future, and I don't think adding redlinks is vandalism either. The editor who added the link was even publishing a draft at that article title at the time
• Diff 14: reversion of the addition of citations (re-used ones)

I fail to see how any of these fourteen total diffs meet the "valid uses of rollback" (e.g. obvious vandalism or highly disruptive edits) found under the 'When to use rollback' section over at the Misplaced Pages:Rollback guideline page. None of these 14 edits were made with a custom edit summary (point #6) either. — AP 499D25 (talk) 05:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Amaury)

• Number 6 looks like a WP:BLP violation that might need ] and would have merited a warning of some sort. (back to sleep.)-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:54, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
• Diff 1 was a poor starting point for this report -- yes, the actress is in her 30s now, but the character (who is the subject of the sentence) is a girl, so I don't think you've characterized Amaury's revert correctly. And I agree with Deepfriedokra about diff 6. But you're clearly right to this extent: to comply with the rollback guideline, these uses of rollback would have required a custom edit summary. For this offence, I hereby administer to Amaury the frowny face and waggy finger of mild disapproval.—S Marshall T/C 12:50, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

  ...and now I've seen Amaury's talk page commentary, I'll upgrade that to the raised eyebrow of that's-not-how-we-talk. A sysop can and should use their discretion to remove rollback for the time being, and that need not wait until this discussion is closed.—S Marshall T/C 13:36, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

• Do not endorse obviously, except for diffs 1 and 6. A few of the diffs are fair enough cases for rollback (see number 6, that's somewhat of an aberration in this report compared to the others), but what I'm more concerned about is them not appropriately warning editors. Diff 6 was actually a BLP violation, but the talk page of the IP is still red-linked. The other diffs resulted in no notification to the editor that their edit had been reverted or why, and that's something I think Amaury should commit to before this discussion is closed. Otherwise, yeah, like S Marshall says, waggy finger and a frowny face. EggRoll97 18:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• The roll back issue has been going on for quite sometime, even without explanation of the reason behind the revert. I had issues a few issues with this user as I would disagree with this user reverts and it would get into an edit war without a reason behind the revert. I have also noticed this with other users as well and when other users or I would go to the talk page to ask why there would be no communication on Amaury's talk page. My issues where a few years ago, but still have them on and off every so often. Magical Golden Whip (talk) 21:33, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Amaury: could you respond here to these concerns? -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• I think this is more of an ANI issue than something for ARRV. AARV is generally for reviewing whether a specific action was appropriate (similar to DRV), while this clearly shows a chronic issue that has continued past warnings. Amaury was alerted of their inappropriate use of rollback, ignored it, and continued misusing the tool. C F A 21:59, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
• The question here should be whether the diffs represent the use of an advanced permission contrary to policy.

  Associated questions are:

  • Was it raised with the user?
  • Was their failure to respond a failure of WP:ADMINACCT?
  • Does it really matter? Is Rollback an advanced permission above a threshold worth bringing here? Is rollback just an easier option than the Undo button? Is Rollback not different to Undo without an edit summary?
  • Is the documented policy out of step with policy-in-practice? Are the diffs representative of normal accepted practice?

  SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

  CFA and SmokeyJoe are both correct. However, since AARV seems to me to be evolving into a somewhat less toxic version of ANI, it might be worth keeping this here. If Amaury says “feedback accepted, everyone, sorry and thanks” then we saved the world from an ANI thread. If the unexplained rollbacks continue, then ANI would be next. All that’s really needed is a recalibration of Amaury’s “obvious problem edit” criterion. Floquenbeam (talk) 23:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• I've left Amaury a note asking them to address the concerns raised here.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 23:21, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
• While I think the rollback issue isn't that big a deal, I'm more concerened with Amaurys response. First, they ignored the user when they wanted to discuss it on their talk page; now that an admin asked them again, they responded with a fairly bad reply. As if someone they don't know can't ask them about an issue also the Editcountitis excuse looks bad. It also looks way too much like ABF. Nobody (talk) 06:21, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  Unless an adequate response is made here, someone will need to remove the rollback permission. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 10:37, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  My one time interacting with Amaury attempting to address their unideal editing decisions, was also met with immediate ABF, accusations of "stalking" and refusal to discuss further, so I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 13:05, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

• There's now a response on the talk page, but it just explains the edits themselves rather than addressing why rollback was used. Do not endorse; I'm not especially fond of some aspects of our rollback rules, but I think everyone can agree that you shouldn't revert someone's good-faith edits without telling them why. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 11:18, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
• I think it's pretty clear that the use of rollback here is not endorsed, but providing that feedback is all AARV is really for, by design. The actual reverts themselves are not all wrong; if individual ones are wrong, they can be restored by anyone. Sanctions are explicitly not what happens at AARV. While the tone of Amaruy's response on his talk page was disappointingly discordant, I note that starting on about the 31st, they seem to have actually stopped with the unexplained reverting of good faith edits. I think this can be closed as "not endorsed". Any significant misuse of rollback in the future could result in an individual admin removing rollback, or an ANI thread (Amaury, everyone, let's try to avoid that). --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:01, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
• I don't think that we should get too hung up on the specific tool that is used, but on the "revert constructive or good-faith edits without explanation" in the title of this section. Nobody should be reverting such edits without explanation, whether it is via rollback or undo or anything else. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:31, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
• Just a comment, though I've already made it clear above that I do not endorse these actions. Amaury has not responded here at all, despite receiving the required notification and another full thread on their talk page about this discussion. They have responded to an administrator, on their talk page, though they have failed to respond to the community at large. They manually archive their talk page, meaning they should reasonably be aware of this discussion. ADMINACCT states Administrators should justify their actions when requested, and this extends to unbundled subsets of the sysop permission. While I think Amaury is acting in pretty good faith here, I don't think they should keep an advanced permission if they are showing a failure to respond to the community, which responding on a talk page to a single person and simultaneously failing to respond to a community discussion they were made aware of, should count as. I would see this in a far better light, personally, if they just came by and said something, anything, to the community. EggRoll97 21:20, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
• I expect someone with over 23k rollback uses in main space (according to Xtools) to know better, but their talk page seems to indicate a misunderstanding of when rollback is appropriate. Their mention of not appreciating a user who has far fewer edits than them bringing this up is also a ridiculous point to even mention.

I've read through the discussion on their talk page, and they're lacking in accountability and failing to acknowledge the extent of their errors. They're simply chalking this up to mistakes and being stalked, but this is too many in a short period of time. Good faith edits which are not disruptive shouldn't be rolled back. It's fine to disagree with changes, but it's not simply meant to be a generic quick undo button.

As such, due to their lack of accountability and focusing on the user who reported them, as opposed to the issue with their own actions, I would support removal of rollback perm. Their usage clearly meets WP:RBREVOKE from my perspective. However, I do recognize that a final warning may be more appropriate. Amaury, please take some accountability, seriously limit your usage of rollback, and take some time to self reflect. I almost actioned this report myself, but decided to comment with the hope you'd actually respond here. Not responding to this report directly also contributed to my consideration of removing the perm. Hell I still wouldn't push back if someone else wanted to do so. Hey man im josh (talk) 22:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Hey man im josh: Thank you for the ping. I literally did say on my talk page to Floquenbeam that I would use more care going forward with edits that appear to be good faith, but are problematic, and I definitely plan on doing that, especially since it was a concern from other users, as shown here, not just the OP. My problem with the OP, in addition to what I've already said, is that after only one message to me, they came here rather than to try to continue to resolve whatever or even go to an individual administrator talk page and ask them for an opinion. Unless it were something extremely serious, it would be the equivalent of a problem between two co-workers who don't get along at their job going straight to HR instead of trying to resolve it themselves or talking to their managers—either shift manager or the general manager—in hopes of coming up with something to resolve or help resolve the issue.

I still don't understand what potentially removing rollback permissions would do since, as Phil Bridger and SmokeyJoe mentioned, the same problems can occur using Twinkle, the generic undo button, or even just restoring an older version without having anything in the edit summary. And just to be clear so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not condoning reverting good faith problematic edits without reason, which is the topic of concern here, nor am I saying I am going to go on a spree of reverting good faith problematic edits without a reason using any kind of undo, but the problem can happen with any user using any kind of undo. If not me, it could be somebody else in this report. Removing specific permissions wouldn't stop the issue. I also don't personally see the need for a final warning since this hasn't been an issue since the report was made, as Floquenbeam also pointed out. And where were the level 2 and 3 warnings? However, I will accept the warning and use more care going forward, as I mentioned. Thank you. Amaury • 22:43, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I still, very strongly, feel that you're not acknowledging the breadth of the issues you're having using rollback, so I'm going to expand a bit further.

After going point by point over the diffs linked, on your talk page instead of here, in what I construed as an attempt to justify the usage of inappropriate usage of rollback as opposed to undo. So I'm going to pick out a few points that made me reply the way that I did above. The below quotes are from you within the last 24 hours.

• Having said all that, I don't appreciate a random user who I don't know stalking my edits and trying to cause trouble by blowing a potentially small problem out of proportion, especially a user who not only has far less edits than I do, but has also been around for far less time than I have. – Inappropriate deflection over valid feedback. Since you want to discount their feedback based on their edit count, I'll mention that I have 3x the edit count that you do and that edit count is meaningless and I've surpassed your edit count in each of the last 3 years.
• Unless I'm going around making severe personal attacks that require immediate attention, which I am not, they need to find something better to do with their time than to follow me around just to look for me to mess up. – No, this is perfectly appropriate, especially given your failure to recognize it as a legitimate issue.
• AP was trying to make a mountain out of a molehill and it's pretty clear that they were following me around just looking for me to mess up just so they could have their five minutes of fame and make a report, at least in my opinion. – Inappropriate deflection again.
• ...my almost 1,500 edits for 2024 that are potentially a problem don't show a pattern; otherwise, this would have been raised long ago. – It's being raised now, and it DOES demonstrate a problematic pattern in just this small range of time.
• I do see the point you're making about looking at the edits between December 21 and December 31, but I feel it's also important to look at my edits as a whole. – You're right. Your rollback usage in many of these diffs was inappropriate, and, given that they were all between December 21 and 31, it sends a signal that there's likely far more. If there's THIS many issues in this short of a time, how many more are there that have gone unaddressed? You mentioned 1500 edits in 2024, this could be worth looking further into if it's this many errors in this short a time.
• I can be more careful moving forward, but I also don't want to feel like I have to walk on eggshells in fear of, so to speak, AP reporting me again – You CAN be more careful? No, you NEED to be more careful. I don't walk around on eggshells about my rollback usage, nor do most others, because they don't frivously rollback edits.

Take accountability, your replies on the subject contain so much inappropriate deflection as opposed to understanding and acknowledgement of the errors. It's as if you just want this to go away without admitting wrong doing. Personally @Amaury, I want to see a commitment to adhering to WP:ROLLBACKUSE, because I feel confident, based on the limited timeframe for these diffs, that there's a much larger pile of misuse out there. I don't even care about the part about "what will it do to remove the perm?" because misuse of tools is misuse of tools, whether there's a way to get around it or not. Hey man im josh (talk) 23:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with you, josh. I have to be mindful myself about hitting rollback and explaining what I'm doing; as admins we may be inclined to think that whatever we do is right, and that when we hit rollback it's clear that the edit was clearly vandalism or whatever. But I just went through and revdeleted that comment about Laura Ingraham, and warned the user--so that user has a record of saying pretty awful things on talk pages, and should have been warned earlier. I'm a bit surprised to see the defensive comments, which didn't come until I think Floq left a message. So sure we're not actually reviewing administrative actions, but we are reviewing administrative accountability, and I would argue that as admins we should always walk on eggshells--and I know I've broken plenty of them, and I'm trying to do better. At least we saw that commitment from Aumary, which is great, but again, if a BLP violation is pointed out on December 31 and here I am, on January 3, removing it and warning a user, then Amaury has not fully reckoned with the edit (nor have any of the other admins in this thread!), though they commented on it--wait, they didn't: "were already answered by other users". Hmm. Answered, maybe; acted on, no. Drmies (talk) 23:49, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not deflecting anything, I even admitted where I made a couple of mistakes. I said I would be more careful and also explained why I felt the way I did just simply to explain, not to deflect. I'm told that I need to comment here, not just on my talk page. Then it's still not enough because of the way I worded it. Respectfully, it's semantics nitpicking the use of the word "can," which is often interchangeable to mean the same thing as "will," etc. Now, having said that, I will be very clear here: I made a couple of mistakes, for which I apologize. Going forward, I will be more careful with my use of rollback, which I've already shown since after this report was created, any reversion of a problematic, but good faith, edit has had a reason attached to it instead of just being rolled back. Amaury • 10:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

In response to Drmies, my comments regarding two of the diffs already being answered by other users, namely S Marshall and Deepfriedokra, is that the explanation/answer I would have given for those diffs would have been the same as what they said, such as the character being a girl and not a woman. Amaury • 10:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

From a technical point of view, rollback has a higher rate limit of reversions (+10 reversions via rollback compared to normal undo), and bypasses the edit filter, if I recall correctly. From a practical standpoint though, the difference is that you are using a tool which was originally given only to administrators, and has been unbundled because it would be useful to non-administrators. It still receives the same scrutiny and accountability standards, though, that would be attached to any other unbundled subset of the sysop tools or even the sysop tools themselves. Even the rollback page itself states that administrators can be desysopped to remove access to the rollback tool. This is not the Misplaced Pages Human Resources Department. Your actions with the rollback tool, and even your edits as a normal editor, are subject to scrutiny and questioning by others, no matter what their edit count or usergroups are. Even an IP editor could come to your talk page and ask you to explain one of your actions or edits, and the standard is that you should be able and willing to explain it to them. It's the standard everyone on the site is held to, and my personal opinion is that it's part of what makes this place a collaborative environment. EggRoll97 01:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

On "an IP editor could come to your talk page and ask you to explain one of your actions", unfortunately, no, they can't, because—due to an immature block-evading IP, page has been indefinitely semi-protected. Newly registered users and IPs are not able to post on talk page. For the last year. SerialNumber54129 07:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

This is still an ongoing issue with this WP:LTA, as seen by the history of User talk:YoungForever and other user talk pages. (See the summaries ending with "...next time.") Amaury • 10:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the point is that non-registered or newly registered users could request an explanation, rather than where that request might be made. isaacl (talk) 17:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I am troubled by the implicit elitism, as though non registered and newly registered editors are somehow inferior. I started as an non registered use, and all established registered users were "new" once, and there are non registered editors on Misplaced Pages that are very constructive and very knowledgeable. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Isaacl is correct. Also, though. How comes YoungForever hasn't had their talk page indefinitely protected? I guess we all suspect it's because if they asked, they would be told, sympathetically but firmly, that per WP:UT-PROT, User talk pages are rarely protected, and that A user's request to have their own talk page protected is not a sufficient rationale by itself to protect the page, with the caveats. In the current state of affairs no IP or new user can request any kind of accountability. And a (seeming) refusal to communicate can't be a particularly suave look in the middle of a discussion in which poor communication has been highlighted. SerialNumber54129 18:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Equally, a countervandalist who's attracted a "fan" shouldn't have to put up with harassment.—S Marshall T/C 18:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Hah! I've a couple of those myself. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Do we actually think there's any harassment going on here though? This also isn't a case of a newer user going after someone who's been here a while. The filer has over 10k edits themselves and has edited each month since October 2022. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Not by the filer. No. I mean, when you deal with vandals and other problem people long enough, you're going to attract some LTA's. As can be seen by my user talk page history. I've had some humdingers on and off wiki. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• Do not endorse, predominantly per nom. About these SmokeyJoe's questions: Is the documented policy out of step with policy-in-practice? Are the diffs representative of normal accepted practice? Not seeing evidence that it is and pretty clearly no.—Alalch E. 01:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I’m sensing that too, that the rules of rollback are to be taken seriously. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yeah. There was a time when becoming a rollbacker was seen as admin-lite. Nowadays we have other tools that do the same thing, so rollback is much less of a big deal, but the general principle that powerful countervandalism tools are to be used mindfully remains, I think, very much the community's view.—S Marshall T/C 12:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I hold that view -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Just a followup from the OP here. I rarely visit AARV and this is my first time posting here, so I didn't know about how exactly AARV works, that it is merely for garnering feedback on the use of advanced/admin tools and that preventative measures usually aren't taken here. I went here because the "Before posting:" part in the banner at the top of AN/I suggested that problematic use of tools shall be posted here and not on AN(I). Anyways...
  I understand that revoking rollback won't stop someone from still using other tools, like Twinkle, Redwarn or the Mediawiki 'undo' button to make quick unexplained reverts to good-faith edits. The outcome I'd intended for here is 'a recalibration of Amaury’s “obvious problem edit” criterion' as User:Floquenbeam put it. And if rollback were to be revoked, then I would've definitely hoped there was a turnaround of the unexplained reversions behaviour at that point.
  Regarding 'stalking' concerns: in the warning message I posted on User:Amaury's talk page before this AARV thread, I'd only sampled approx. two weeks of edit history, with an additional diff from many months ago after looking at the edit history of a page. I even presented some diffs where the usage of rollback was valid, to explain what kind of edits regular rollback is meant to be used for. Then, I left the user alone for about 11 days before deciding to check again to see if anything's changed.
  I have nothing personal against User:Amaury of course and I definitely think he is a great contributor and maintainer of film and TV related articles. I'm just a bit disappointed by all these constructive edits being reverted without an explanation in the edit summary or on the talk page of the user, and more so by the lack of response/change since the warning.
  One of the things I do on the regular here on Misplaced Pages is to help out with various different long-term abuse cases - I am very familiar with the Louisiana IP LTA who is responsible for User:Amaury's talk page being protected and that's how I knew about User:Amaury in the first place (I've dealt with that Louisiana LTA numerous times since early 2023). Sometimes when I'm bored but don't feel quite like doing patrolling, I like to go through the latest contributions of some vandalism patrollers I know well (Amaury included, but not just the only one) to look out for maybe further unconstructive edits that have been missed or for other LTAs to explore or take action on if appropriate. (Please let me know if this is an illegitimate use of another user's contributions. Anyways,) That day I sent the warning on the 20th December is when I incidentally discovered those constructive-looking edits by seemingly legitimate editors being rollbacked without explanation. I don't get alert by just one or two bad rollbacks as I acknowledge that everyone occassionally makes mistakes, but when I looked further, I only found more and more of them, to my dismay.
  I'm sorry that User:Amaury feels the way he does, I did not intend for him to feel harassed/stalked in any form, I just wanted to see a change of a habit that is potentially damaging to newbie editors as well as probably puzzling to third parties (other editors), that's all. My feedback is focussed on the usage of a certain tool, and isn't intended to be an attack at all. — AP 499D25 (talk) 05:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• Does this board have a scope or not? because it says pretty clearly up at the top: "The purpose of an administrative review discussion is to reach a consensus on whether a specific action was appropriate, not to assign blame. It is not the place to request comment on an editor's general conduct, to seek retribution or removal of an editor's advanced permissions..." This thread is basically ignoring every word of that. Beeblebrox 01:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think this is on the cusp of a consensus that some of the examples of rollback given were inappropriate. I read Amaury as in agreement. On the talk page there is the start of a proposal to limit the OP, or all, to 200-500 words, and this might help with your apparent concern of excessive tangential comment? SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  My concerns are that the scope of this page is supposed to be single actions, not patterns, and it is explicitly not a place to even ask that permissions be removed, yet this thread is about an alleged pattern and some users are advocating for removal, hence why I asked if there is a scope here or not and quoted the exact material I felt was being ignored in this thread.

  I also reject the idea that rollback is a "powerful tool" when Twinkle and other tools do the same thing, better, and cannot be revoked. but I'm aware I'm in the minority in that regard from reasons I will likely never understand. Beeblebrox 07:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Another followup from the OP since I feel like we're kinda done here and there are concerns about the scope of this forum. I consider the 'issue' (the wrongful use of rollback) resolved, as User:Amaury has apologised and made a statement that they will be more careful with reverting constructive edits (or non-obvious problematic edits) in the future. And I don't think rollback needs to be revoked at this time either. In any case, if I notice a further problem that actually needs action, then I will go to AN(I) and not here. At the time of filing this, I could not make out the distinction between whether it's a simple misusage of a tool, or a more general long-term behavioural issue that involves using a tool, so I just went with what the top banner at WP:AN suggested.
  Although AARV may not have been the best place for this, I think this thread has still served its purpose - numerous users (incl. admins) have commented on whether/how the user's usage of standard rollback (i.e. with the default edit summary) was inappropriate when dealing with those good-faith and unobvious problematic edits, and the reported user has responded accordingly that they will change the practice.
  P.S. I admit some of the example diffs I provided were rather poor examples, especially diff 6, I did rush the initial report a bit due to a time constraint. Also I'm not so knowledgeable in entertainment-related subjects, my big wiki-interests are in technology and electronics stuff, though I still felt that diff 1 could've used some explaining instead of being given the silent revert-hammer. These diffs are sorted in a chronological order btw. — AP 499D25 (talk) 11:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

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