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Revision as of 18:49, 23 August 2023 edit+JMJ+ (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users20,658 editsm →Category:18th-century people from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation← Previous edit Latest revision as of 16:55, 10 September 2023 edit undoPppery (talk | contribs)Interface administrators, Administrators101,019 edits →Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland part 2: Closed 
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==== Category:Eskimo Joe members ==== ====Category:Eskimo Joe members====
] '''Relisted''', see ]<!-- Template:Cfd relisted -->
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Eskimo Joe members}}
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' As per ]. There are 3 core notable members of this band in its 26 year history, this is unlikely to change. The first line of ] outlines these band members. ] (]) 23:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)


==== Category:Religion in the Arab world ==== ====Category:Religion in the Arab world====
] '''Relisted''', see ]<!-- Template:Cfd relisted -->
:* '''Propose merging''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose merging''' ] to ]
:** '''Purge''' Morocco (already in ])
:* '''Propose merging''' ] to ]
:** '''Re-parent''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose splitting''' ] to ] and ]
:* '''Propose renaming''' ] to ]
:** '''Purge''' Libya and Morocco (already in ])
:* '''Propose splitting''' ] to ] and ]
:* '''Propose merging''' ] to ]
:** '''Purge''' Algeria (already in ])
:* '''Propose splitting''' ] to ] and ]
:* '''Propose merging''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose merging''' ] to ];
:** '''Purge''' all countries which are already in ] <small>(Algeria, Comoros, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Sudan, Tunisia, Western Sahara. Egypt can stay in both because it's part of ])</small>
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Bahá'í Faith in the Arab world}}; all contents are already in ] and ]
:* '''Propose merging''' ] to ]
::* '''Purge''' Somalia (already in ])
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' ] ] ]. Follow-up to ]. {{ping|Marcocapelle|Fayenatic london}} pinging previous participants who requested this new fresh nomination. Cheers, ] (]) 22:44, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
:PS: See also ]. ] (]) 23:30, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
* '''Merge''' per nom, too much overlap. ] (]) 05:17, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
* I am not particularly keen on this, as it's part of ] which I consider to be of some value for navigation. I also consider the ] to be sufficiently well defined for regional categories to be valid. However, this nomination does at least deal consistently with the nominated hierarchy, so I am not opposing it if other editors think pruning this hierarchy would be an improvement. – ] ] 19:34, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
*I have added two more sub-cats, but omitting ] and ] since they also form a significant part of ] and ]. – ] ] 20:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
*:Those seem fine additions to me, although I would have appreciated it if you asked me to add them first. The nomination is already complicated, I would not like to see it fail. Cheers, ] (]) 14:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)


==== Category:18th-century people from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation ==== ====Category:18th-century people from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation====
:* '''Propose renaming''' ] to ] <sup>edit: corrected the actualy target category</sup> ] '''Relisted''', see ]<!-- Template:Cfd relisted -->
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' The category and all subcategories name was changed on ] based on two erroneous premises:


==== Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland part 2 ====
1. "the Polish state did not exist," which is untrue because the Polish state did not collapse until 1795; it existed in the form of the Kingdom of Poland since the early Middle Ages, in union/federation with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania since 1569.
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's ] or in a ]). No further edits should be made to this section.''


:''The result of the discussion was:'' '''Rename''' The late additions by Santasa99 will have to be brought to a new nomination. ] ] 16:55, 10 September 2023 (UTC)<!-- Template:Cfd top -->
2. "nationality is the same as being subject to a single state", this is untrue as this concept has a much broader meaning: ''nationality is the status of belonging to a particular nation, defined as a group of people organized in one country, under one legal jurisdiction, or as a group of people who are united by a common culture, history, traditions, and awareness of a common origin.'' Polish nationality existed in both the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, the existence of a sovereign Polish state is irrelevant.

Besides:

3. we base Misplaced Pages on reliable secondary sources, if they describe, for example, ] as a Polish reformer, etc. then that is how Misplaced Pages should describe him, and he should be able to be included in his ] category.

4. the author of the original proposal was banned permanently for sockpuppetry. There is a risk of manipulation of the original vote.

5. category names are inconsistent ("people from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth" vs. "Polish-Lithuanian actors"); ] is something much different, referring to people with dual Polish and Lithuanian identities.

6. the previous move was done messily and created a hole in the tree ordering Poles according to centuries, and leaving dozens of other nations and ethnicities (Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Germans, Latvians, Karaites, Roma, Jews, Hungarians, Vlachs, Armenians, Greeks, Russians and others) out of the PLC people categories

Previous discussions on this topic: ], ] - previous move review, ] - previous nominator request to move back. Related current discussion about ].

Proposed solution: create a separate category tree for ], leaving Polish people category tree untouched. ] (]) 22:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
* <s>'''Procedural oppose''', this is forumshopping after it has already been on move review.</s> By all means populate the category further with people of other ethnicities if you know they are lacking. ] (]) 05:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
*:Misinformation on your part: the previous move review was closed because of technical reasons (''Consensus here found that the main question underlying this move review is whether Commonwealth citizens can be considered Poles or Lithuanians. Debates like these are outside the scope of move reviews, which mainly deal with whether move discussions were closed appropriately''), the suggestion of the closer of the original move discussion @] was to open regular CfD, what I'm doing right now.
*:Please strikethrough your misleading statement. ] (]) 05:58, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
*:* You are right. I did not read the entire MR discussion. ] (]) 06:06, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
*:*:Thank you ] (]) 06:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
*'''Notes''' attempting to clarify this nomination: The stated target category ] does exist, and has several sub-cats including women/nobility/LGBT, but had no occupational sub-categories until ]' recent work. If I understand correctly, the current nomination is intended to split ] and its occupational sub-categories back to ] (formerly a redirect after the original CFD), ] and occupational sub-categories as appropriate.
* I think it is common ground that (i) "People from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth" is the category for official nationality in the C17 and C18, and (ii) that many if not all the citizens also maintained an identity as Polish or Lithuanian. The question comes down to whether to sub-divide the '''occupational sub-categories''' by this Polish/Lithuanian identity, which would result in many even smaller categories, or whether occupations should only be categorised at the level of the official nationality.
*I commend the nominator for linking to previous discussions. As he says, after the unsuccessful ], the original nominator changed his mind and brought a ] to reverse it; this was notified to WikiProject Poland and relisted a few times, but gained no more participation than the original discussion and was closed with no consensus.
*This CFD should be considered alongside the current ] which follows the same direction as the original CFD. Clearly they must not both be approved. – ] ] 20:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
*:'''To clarify:'''
*:* {{tq|The stated target category Category:18th-century Polish people does exist, and has several sub-cats including women/nobility/LGBT}} - mistake on my part, of course the target category is ]
*:* {{tq|If I understand correctly, the current nomination is intended to split Category:18th-century people from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation}}, I'm advocating moving back the said category to it's original name, people whose nationality was Lithuanian are already in the ]
*:* {{tq|The question comes down to whether to sub-divide the occupational sub-categories by this Polish/Lithuanian identity, which would result in many even smaller categories, or whether occupations should only be categorised at the level of the official nationality.}}, Polish and Lithuanian were these people "official" or "civic" nationality (of course such notion didn't really exist back then in the form as we understood it today), since both Polish and Lithuanian states still very much existed. Also your presumption that these categories will be small is wrong, because all categories which are currently in the ] tree were originally in the ] and should stay there. So the size of categories will remain basically the same. Moreover, I emphasise once again, parent ] refers to nationality understood broadly, i.e. as both 'civic nationality' and 'ethnic nationality'. We should base our categorisation on reliable sources.
*:* {{tq|This CFD should be considered alongside the current Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_August_20#18th-century_Lithuanian_people_by_occupation which follows the same direction as the original CFD. Clearly they must not both be approved}}, that's correct; we should restore the previous state of affairs and reconsider creating new category tree for people of the PLC.
*:] (]) 21:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
*] is fine, the PLC one is a bit iffy but I guess both trees can exist as an overcat. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]&#124;]</sub> 00:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
*'''Oppose renaming''', but agree with the '''procedural solution.''' Perhaps it would be wise to have overcats for states - ], ] and ], while there would be separate category trees for nationalities/ethnicities like ], ], and probably ] and others if there are enough people. After all, many ethnicities lived in that state. I am hesitant about the creation of categories for Belarusians and Ukrainians considering that they were both just Ruthenian in the past and drawing a line when one becomes another before the 20th century is rather complicated. Perhaps a ] would be a solution? Just throwing out ideas, perhaps they will give rise to something better later.--] (]) 18:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

==== Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland part 2 ====
:* '''Propose renaming''' ] to ] – main article: ] :* '''Propose renaming''' ] to ] – main article: ]
:* '''Propose renaming''' ] to ] – main article: ] :* '''Propose renaming''' ] to ] – main article: ]
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:::::I really think that we should dicuss it case by case, possibly with involvement of Wikiprojects, unlike you I don't consider myself expert on every culture on earth. ] is the best example of that, afaik state of Azerbaijan isn't the main center of Azerbaijani culture. ] shows it quite well. ] (]) 16:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC) :::::I really think that we should dicuss it case by case, possibly with involvement of Wikiprojects, unlike you I don't consider myself expert on every culture on earth. ] is the best example of that, afaik state of Azerbaijan isn't the main center of Azerbaijani culture. ] shows it quite well. ] (]) 16:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::I've posted invitations to participate in this CfR to WikiProject Countries and WikiProject Culture. I don't think it will be necessary to request permission from everyone at, say, ] to rename ] to ] if the main article has been called ] since 2004 and the scope of the main article and adjoining category have remained unchanged for the past 19 years. But if you think so, go ahead. ] (]) 22:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC) ::::::I've posted invitations to participate in this CfR to WikiProject Countries and WikiProject Culture. I don't think it will be necessary to request permission from everyone at, say, ] to rename ] to ] if the main article has been called ] since 2004 and the scope of the main article and adjoining category have remained unchanged for the past 19 years. But if you think so, go ahead. ] (]) 22:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
::::::@], please can you clarify your position? Above you said {{tq|Culture of foo is much better category name, as it is much broader}} but you seems to be suggesting into should reviewed case by case here. ]] 20:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
* '''Comment on nouns vs adjectives''' Some subcategories also follow the {{xt|Culture of Fooland}} naming convention already, such as ], ], and ]. Especially the latter would be difficult to turn into a "Fooian" formula. Should we really expect Wikipedians who are categorising articles to know all the adjectives of geographical regions and name them {{xt|Category:Auvergnat–Rhônalpin culture}} and such? Surely not. It would be grammatically correct, but fail ]. The {{xt|Culture of Fooland}} convention allows us to simply use the noun of the country or region in question and not having to memorise or look up the adjectives of all possibly categorisable regions in the world (], ], etc.). ] (]) 01:03, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
*'''Fully support''' this nomination - I think this is an excellent nomination and I would dare to nominate few additional cats:
** Propose renaming ] to ] – main article: ];
** Propose renaming ] to ] – main article: ] and ].--]] 15:46, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
----
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's ] or in a ]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>


==== Category:Viziers of the medieval Islamic world ==== ====Category:Viziers of the medieval Islamic world====
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ] ] '''Relisted''', see ]<!-- Template:Cfd relisted -->
:* '''Propose merging''' ] to ]
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Follow-up to several recent precedents:
:* Follow-up to ] being Upmerged to ] (])
:* Follow-up to ] being Upmerged to ]
:* Follow-up to ] being Upmerged to ] (])
:* Follow-up to ] being Renamed to ], Re-parented, and Populated (])
:As the precedents have established, "the medieval Islamic world" was not a "country", so this is an ] that can be upmerged. Unlike the precedents, I think "medieval" is also ] in this case and having a "medieval" subcat doesn't improve navigation, so it's better to just upmerge to parent ]. Cheers, ] (]) 16:10, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''', see above. ] (]) 21:25, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
*:Objection does not seem relevant. No vizier signed a contract with something which was not a state. ] (]) 22:06, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' merge as this would lose the medieval period. As long as the parent {{c|Officials of the medieval Islamic world}} exists, the current name seems valid, although "in" might be better than "of", rather like ] for {{c|Monarchs in Europe}}. If in future the Officials parent is deleted or renamed to something that would no longer parent this one, perhaps "Medieval viziers" would then be in order. For now, '''rename''' to ]. – ] ] 12:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
:* '''Support "in"''', as "of" wrongly suggest they were viziers of the entire medieval Islamic world. ] (]) 14:54, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
:*:Well I doubt "medieval" has much navigational value for viziers. The only other period-based category in the ] tree is ], and it wouldn't make sense to create an "Ancient viziers" parent just to be able to horizonally navseasoncat our way to the medieval ones. Upmerging makes it much more navigable.
:*:Second, I agree that we need to look to parent ] as well. I've already looked into it and there is actually no "Officials by century/period" tree, but there is a ] tree which runs from the 16th to the 21st century. So I would be quite open to '''Rename''' ] to ], and '''Re-parent''' and '''Populate''' it, just like we did with the ]. How about that? Cheers, ] (]) 01:00, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
:*:* ''Civil servants'' is a too modern concept, it makes sense that it does not start earlier than the 16th century (I think even that is too early). Officials is a more generic concept which seems just fine. ] (]) 05:28, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
:*:*:Okay. We could re-parent it to ], but that currently has no "by century" or "by period" branches. What it does have is ]. In fact, ] is already there. '''Merge'''? ] (]) 09:07, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
:*:*:* Agree with re-parenting to ]. But having ] in ] is suboptimal, by dynasty would be more accurate. ] (]) 18:10, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
* '''Nomination expanded''': proposing to merge ] to ]. See my 09:07, 15 August 2023 comment above. {{ping|Fayenatic london|Marcocapelle}} For your information. {{smiley}} ] (]) 18:02, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
:<p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize|91%|] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br /><small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ]] 20:42, 21 August 2023 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:XfD relist --></p>
* Oppose officials too. We lose a relevant connection when merging. On top of that, the subcategories are mostly not based on ''nationality'' but derived from the ruling ''dynasty'', as we usually do for categories in the medieval Islamic world, so the target is off. And the target is not specifically medieval either. ] (]) 05:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
*:@] what if we Alt Renamed the officials to ], and somehow connected them to the target categories you proposed at ]? E.g. ] would become a child of ]. This seems to solve both problems in 1 go. :) ] (]) 14:17, 23 August 2023 (UTC)


==== Category:Greek Orthodoxy by continent ==== ====Category:Greek Orthodoxy by continent====
:* '''Propose renaming''' ] to ] ] '''Relisted''', see ]<!-- Template:Cfd relisted -->
:** <s>'''Alt proposal 1: propose renaming''' ] to ]</s>
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Simply a better way of organising the same information for easier navigation. Right now there is a lot of duplication and sub-sub-categorisation going on:
{{cot|Current structure}}
:;Greek Orthodoxy by continent
:* Greek Orthodoxy in Asia‎ (2 C)
:** Greek Orthodoxy in the Middle East‎ (6 C, 2 P)
:*** Greek Orthodoxy in Egypt‎ (2 C, 5 P)
:*** Greek Orthodoxy in Israel‎ (1 C, 1 P)
:*** Greek Orthodoxy in Lebanon‎ (3 C, 4 P)
:*** Greek Orthodoxy in the State of Palestine‎ (1 C, 7 P)
:*** Greek Orthodoxy in Syria‎ (2 C, 8 P)
:*** Greek Orthodoxy in Turkey‎ (3 C, 8 P)
:** Greek Orthodoxy in the Arab world‎ (4 C)
:*** Greek Orthodoxy in Egypt‎ (2 C, 5 P)
:*** Greek Orthodoxy in Lebanon‎ (3 C, 4 P)
:*** Greek Orthodoxy in the State of Palestine‎ (1 C, 7 P)
:*** Greek Orthodoxy in Syria‎ (2 C, 8 P)
:* Greek Orthodoxy in Europe‎ (4 C, 4 P)
:** Greek Orthodoxy in Greece‎ (2 C, 7 P)
:** Croatian Orthodox Church‎ (3 P)
:** Greek Orthodoxy in Turkey‎ (3 C, 8 P)
:** Greek Orthodoxy in the United Kingdom‎ (1 C, 3 P, 1 F)
:* Greek Orthodoxy in North America‎ (1 C, 3 P)
:** Greek Orthodoxy in the United States‎ (3 C, 1 P)
{{cob}}
:As you can see, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and Turkey are all mentioned twice. But at the core, these are country-based categories and there is no need for continental or regional layers in between. Those are redundant. Instead, I propose:
{{cot|Proposed new structure}}
:;Greek Orthodoxy by country
:* Croatian Orthodox Church‎ (3 P)
:* Greek Orthodoxy in Egypt‎ (2 C, 5 P)
:* Greek Orthodoxy in Greece‎ (2 C, 7 P)
:* Greek Orthodoxy in Israel‎ (1 C, 1 P)
:* Greek Orthodoxy in Lebanon‎ (3 C, 4 P)
:* Greek Orthodoxy in the State of Palestine‎ (1 C, 7 P)
:* Greek Orthodoxy in Syria‎ (2 C, 8 P)
:* Greek Orthodoxy in Turkey‎ (3 C, 8 P)
:* Greek Orthodoxy in the United Kingdom‎ (1 C, 3 P, 1 F)
:* Greek Orthodoxy in the United States‎ (3 C, 1 P)
{{cob}}
:I'd like to establish consensus on this first before going on a tagfest throughout all the subcategories and sub-sub-categories. That's only gonna make people confused. We can do that once we agree that we should simplify this tree by making it country-based. Cheers, ] (]) 16:58, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
* '''Just another problem''', "]" is very ambiguous. Assuming all of this does not refer to the ], these categories should rather be merged/renamed to Eastern Orthodoxy. ] (]) 17:37, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
*:Well-spotted. ] states that {{tq|The Church of Greece part of the wider Greek Orthodox Church, one of the autocephalous churches which make up the communion of Eastern Orthodox Christianity.}} So they are not the same, but you've got a point that (per ]) we should probably rename all categories named "Greek Orthodoxy" to "Greek Orthodox Church" because ] redirects to ]. I'll make that an Alt rename proposal.
*:But do you agree on the proposed new structure? Cheers, ] (]) 21:56, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
*:* Wait, it shouldn't become Greek Orthodox Church either, because that is highly ambiguous. It should become Church of Greece or Eastern Orthodox. As the Eastern Orthodox tree is far better populated, it is probably too early to say that the continent layer is redundant. But I have no objection to a merger of Middle East right now. ] (]) 07:33, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
*:*:Well, I speedy renamed ] to ] per ] ] already. The closed as '''not moved'''. I see you even participated in that discussion and didn't have a viable alternative to propose either. So I'm afraid we will have to accept that this term is ambiguous for the time being.
*:*:But that's not the gravamen of my nomination, namely: the elimination of redundant and duplicate category layers. ] (]) 01:00, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
*'''Note''': ] was previously kept rather than renamed to Greek Orthodox Church, see ]. – ] ] 13:33, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
*:Ok. Whether we call it "Greek Orthodoxy" or "Greek Orthodox Church" is not my primary concern anyway; we can keep that as it is. I just want to eliminate the continental/regional layers of this tree because the underlying structure is country-based. ] (]) 14:27, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
* '''Update''' A closely-related nomination has been submitted by Marcocapelle at ]. I think our ideas are theoretically compatible, but may interfere with each other in practice. For procedural reasons, I think it might be a good idea if we defer a decision on this one for now, and wait for Marcocapelle's nomination to be decided on first. Alternately, I'm also okay with withdrawing this nom to ensure the nominations do not practically interfere with each other. @] Any advice? ] (]) 13:27, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
:<p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize|91%|] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br /><small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ]] 20:15, 21 August 2023 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:XfD relist --></p>
* Sounds a good idea waiting to close this discussion until the other one is closed. ] (]) 05:53, 23 August 2023 (UTC)


==== Wikipedians who believe that a hot dog is (not) a sandwich ==== ==== Wikipedians who believe that a hot dog is (not) a sandwich ====
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==== Category:Recipients of the Ulloor Award ==== ==== Category:Recipients of the Ulloor Award ====
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's ] or in a ]). No further edits should be made to this section.''

:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''delete'''. <small>]</small> ]] 21:04, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
:* '''Propose Deleting''' ] :* '''Propose Deleting''' ]
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Per ], ], and ] :'''Nominator's rationale:''' Per ], ], and ]
:There are 3 different "]" issued by 2 different organisations that are all named after renowned Malayalam poet ]. In practice the 2 articles in this category don't treat the award as defining, ] mentioning it in passing with other honours or ] not mentioning it at all. The recipients are already listified ], ] and ] in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - ] (]) 01:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC) :There are 3 different "]" issued by 2 different organisations that are all named after renowned Malayalam poet ]. In practice the 2 articles in this category don't treat the award as defining, ] mentioning it in passing with other honours or ] not mentioning it at all. The recipients are already listified ], ] and ] in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - ] (]) 01:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
* '''Delete''', ] says it all. ] (]) 05:27, 21 August 2023 (UTC) * '''Delete''', ] says it all. ] (]) 05:27, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
----
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's ] or in a ]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>


==== Category:Prix Emmanuel Roblès recipients ==== ==== Category:Prix Emmanuel Roblès recipients ====
<div class="boilerplate cfd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background:#bff9fc; margin:0 auto; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's ] or in a ]). No further edits should be made to this section.''

:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''delete'''. <small>]</small> ]] 21:04, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
:* '''Propose Deleting''' ] :* '''Propose Deleting''' ]
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Per ] and ] :'''Nominator's rationale:''' Per ] and ]
:The ] is a French literary award for an author's first novel. The award might be initially defining for these young authors but, by the time they are notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article, this award is usually mentioned in passing with other honours. This is one of ''many'' French literary award categories created in late 2016/early 2017 by a banned editor. The contents are already listified ] for any reader interested in the topic. - ] (]) 01:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC) :The ] is a French literary award for an author's first novel. The award might be initially defining for these young authors but, by the time they are notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article, this award is usually mentioned in passing with other honours. This is one of ''many'' French literary award categories created in late 2016/early 2017 by a banned editor. The contents are already listified ] for any reader interested in the topic. - ] (]) 01:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
* '''Delete''', ] says it all. ] (]) 05:28, 21 August 2023 (UTC) * '''Delete''', ] says it all. ] (]) 05:28, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
----
:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's ] or in a ]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>


==== Category:Military personnel of the medieval Islamic world ==== ====Category:Military personnel of the medieval Islamic world====
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ] ] '''Relisted''', see ]<!-- Template:Cfd relisted -->
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ]
:* '''Propose upmerging''' ] to ]
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' As the precedents have established, "the medieval Islamic world" was not a "country", so these are ]s that can be upmerged. Follow-up to ], ], ]. ] (]) 16:19, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' for categories that aren't fully diffused by dynasty such as ]. Some medieval Muslim dynasties were too short-living or too insignificant to have their own subcategory. By the proposed merge we lose the connections. ] (]) 21:13, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
*:Why would keeping that generals category help with the issue you're describing? Suppose a state in the medieval Iberian Peninsula was too short-lived to have 5 generals for its own subcategory, should we then say they should be categorised as having served "the medieval Iberian Peninsula"? That was not a state. Neither was "the medieval Islamic world" a state. No general signed a contract with it. Cheers, ] (]) 21:48, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
*:* We do not organize the medieval Islamic world by state anyway, we organize it by dynasty. At most we derive "country" names from the dynasty, e.g. Ayyubid Caliphate. One dynasty could succeed another without change of territory, while within one dynasty the territory could change a lot. It was blurry. The overarching characteristic was that Islam was the rulers' religion, not that it was any sort of country as we currently know it. ] (]) 22:11, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
*:*:{{!xt|The overarching characteristic was that Islam was the rulers' religion}}. Well, at ] you agreed with me that {{xt|the ruler's religion is ] for the state as a whole.}} So unless there is another defining overarching characteristic, there is no reason to keep these categories, but upmerge them as nominated. ] (]) 00:44, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
*:*:* For India I agree. But the Islamic world of the Middle East and North Africa to Spain was a cultural region (a civilization if you wish) as well. ] (]) 05:22, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
*:*:*:That may be (or may not) be, but we do not categorise "rulers by cultural region" or "civilisation", do we? ]? ]? We don't create ] either, do we? The difference is that the ] were, well, ''states''. They had armies, generals, navies, admirals, everything, because they ''signed contracts and paid for them'' (at least in theory, otherwise you get mutinies or desertion). The ], for example. And though lots of crusaders, popes, patriarchs and (tel)evangelists may have ''claimed'' to represent Christendom (nl: ''christenheid'', as opposed to Christianity, nl: ''christendom''), there were (and are) no "Armed Forces of Christendom", just like there were no "Armed Forces of the medieval Islamic world". This comes back to the core problem that "the medieval Islamic world" was not a state actor or non-state actor. That's why we upmerged ], because treaties can only be signed by state or non-state actors. But the same goes for contracts of generals, admirals, footsoldiers, sailors, you get the idea. No state or non-state actor? Then no army, no navy, no {{!xt|Category:Sieges involving cultural region X}}. Cultural regions don't enlist soldiers and pay their salaries. Cheers, ] (]) 01:25, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
*:*:*:* I would support categories for the medieval Christian world if it wouldn't overlap so strongly with medieval Europe. ] (]) 18:14, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
*:*:*:*:Okay, so you're not advocating for ] etc. because what you would think of "the medieval Christian world" already conveniently strongly overlaps with "medieval Europe"? But there is no ] / ] / ] etc. either. There isn't even a ], even though (ironically) there is a ], a ], and a ].
*:*:*:*:Why should we have to frame medieval military history of the Middle East, North Africa, Central Asia, South Asia, and the Iberian Peninsula purely in terms of the Islamic religion as if those areas were all entirely "Islamic" from the year 500 to the year 1500 (they weren't)? Why should we, for the purposes of military history, assume "medieval Europe" to have been entirely "Christian" (it wasn't)? I don't think we should. Such reductionist generalisations in naming category don't help accurately describe, organise and navigate medieval military history. They merely frame the past from a modern ] and ] / ] ], respectively. That's why I'm calling them ]s. Cheers, ] (]) 14:03, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
:<p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize|91%|] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br /><small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –] (]]) 00:37, 21 August 2023 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:XfD relist --></p>
*:*:*:*:* I did not realize they were missing. When I have time I will create them. ] (]) 05:30, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
*:*:*:*:*:Before you do, maybe it's a good idea to reconsider whether such categories will have actual encyclopedic and navigational value, or be prone to be deleted per ]. ] might not be a bad idea. But ]? Please don't... :/. ] (]) 22:37, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
*:*:*:*:*:* I mean European. ] (]) 05:39, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
*:*:*:*:*:*:Ok. ] (]) 22:19, 22 August 2023 (UTC)


==== Category:People associated with the University of Auckland ==== ====Category:People associated with the University of Auckland====
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|People associated with the University of Auckland}} ] '''Relisted''', see ]<!-- Template:Cfd relisted -->
:::'''Nominator's rationale:''' "People associated with" is a vague category. We already have as better categories: Category:Academic staff of the University of Auckland and Category:University of Auckland alumni. ] (]) 00:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
:*'''Delete''' Classic ]. –] (]]) 00:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
:*'''Delete''' We do have the whole ] tree (which I just added this category to) so a rename would work as well to ]. But there are no direct loose articles in this category yet so delete for now without objection to recreation under the standard naming format. - ] (]) 01:24, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
:*'''Keep''' unless you are also going to also nominate all the other "People associated with the University of" categories for deletion. Have you checked? Just start typing in the Category search, and you'll see that "People associated with..." categories abound. This particular Category has only just been added, so best to let it sit awhile and see who adds to it. ] (]) 12:26, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
:*'''Keep''' per Chrisdevelop. -- ] (]) 13:33, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
::: That is just ] to be nominated too. It is telling that there is no parent category and you can only get there by typing in the search bar. ] (]) 05:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
::::Yes, Whataboutism is a logical fallacy, but logical and syllogistic fallacies can still be true some of the time. The nominator's rationale: '"People associated with" is a vague category' surely applies to all "People associated with..." categories. If "People associated with..." is a vague category, then all "People associated with.." categories are therefore vague, and should accordingly all be nominated for deletion on the identical grounds that they're a "vague category". Why is "People associated with the University of Auckland" vaguer than, say, "People associated with the University of Edinburgh"? Not everyone "associated with" a university is an academic staff member or alumnus. Same goes for other "associated with" categories. ] (]) 12:14, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 16:55, 10 September 2023

< August 20 August 22 >

August 21

Category:Eskimo Joe members

Relisted, see Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:Eskimo Joe members

Category:Religion in the Arab world

Relisted, see Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:Religion in the Arab world

Category:18th-century people from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation

Relisted, see Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:18th-century people from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation

Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland part 2

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename The late additions by Santasa99 will have to be brought to a new nomination. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:55, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C (all are in Category:European culture by country) & WP:C2D (all main articles are called Culture of Fooland). Follow-up to consensus established at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 9#Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland. I recommend leaving a redirect (already exists in 3 cases). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:38, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:51, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Speedy rename per WP:C2C and predecent consensus was opposed by @Marcelus: Oppose, foonian culture and culture of foo isn't the same. Further talks resulted in the decision to move to full.
Pinging participants from previous discussion for this follow-up: @Marcocapelle, Laurel Lodged, and Fayenatic london: for your consideration. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:05, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
@Nederlandse Leeuw please inform all potentially inerested Wikiprojects Marcelus (talk) 22:07, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Culture of foo is much better category name, as it is much broader. For example, Hungarian culture includes the culture of Hungary, but also, for example, the culture of Hungarians in Romania or in the USA. Besides, the borders are changing. Franz Liszt was born outside modern Hungary. Marcelus (talk) 22:45, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
  • I am no longer opposing this. A while back I read it as "Culture in Fooland" and therefore opposed it because I thought it would exclude expatriates. But in hindsight "Culture of Fooland" still covers that too. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
    Fooian culture also covers expatriates, and is much broader in general, because not linked to a particular country, but to a culture as a whole; care to elaborate why you are advocating narrower scope? Logically culture of Foo should be a subcategory of Fooian culture, not replacing it. Marcelus (talk) 06:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Support, following renaming of "society" categories likewise, here and here. I think I opposed these in the past, on the basis that culture also applies in the diasporas, but as Marcocapelle says, this is not a conclusive objection. – Fayenatic London 06:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Rationale expanded: WP:C2C (all are in Category:European culture by country) & WP:C2D (all main articles are called Culture of Fooland). This helps new participants understand the nomination. The main article names are the more important argument than consistency in category tree naming. WP:C2D can take precedence over WP:C2C. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Comment I might add the observation that since the early days of English Misplaced Pages, roughly c. 2001-2006, all articles in this category were created under the title of Culture of Fooland, while in the c. 2003-2008, all the redirects called Fooian culture were created to redirect readers to Culture of Fooland. The move logs don't always accurately preserve the early history of renaming or deleting pages, but it may be that in the early days some articles were originally named Fooian culture (which is why the first sentence of these articles may still feature the boldened phrase Fooian culture today), but they were moved to avoid confusion with the language of the same name. In other cases, Culture of Fooland already existed, and Fooian culture was created as a redirect to it (far more common). Around the same time, subcategories of countries were created about that country's culture. E.g. Category:Barland would have a subcategory named Barian culture. From June 2004 onwards, these subcategories were all grouped into Category:Culture by country.
Some examples
And this pattern holds true for almost all these articles and their redirects in the 2000s. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Comment The following main articles were moved from Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland:
Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:18, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
But we are debating the scope of categories, not articles, aren't we? Marcelus (talk) 15:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
They are the same. They have always been the same. Both the main articles and the connected categories have always included expatriates, and the spreading or influence of the culture of Fooland abroad.
E.g. from the day that Culture of Greece was created on 23 February 2003, it included a reference to (Ancient) Greek philosophy, which originated in Ancient Greece, but spread around Asia, Africa and Europe later. At the time, the article (Ancient) Greek philosophy indicated: There are clear unbroken lines of influence from early Greek philosophers, through early Muslim philosophy especially the Mutazilite school, to the Renaissance and hence the secular sciences of the modern day. There has never been the suggestion that just because the article is named Culture of Greece, we can't talk about how that culture spread abroad outside Greece. Today, Culture of Greece#Philosophy, science and mathematics states: The tradition of philosophy in ancient Greece accompanied its literary development. Greek learning had a profound influence on Western and Middle Eastern civilizations. The works of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and other Greek philosophers profoundly influenced Classical thought, the Islamic Golden Age, and the Renaissance.
Similarly, there is no need to be worried that whatever Culture of Belarus is spread abroad can't be mentioned. E.g. Culture of Belarus#Literature tells a little story: By the 16th century, Polotsk resident Francysk Skaryna translated the Bible into Belarusian. It was published in Prague and Vilnius between 1517 and 1525, making it the first book printed in Belarus or anywhere in Eastern Europe. Nobody is saying we can't mention that just because Prague is not located inside Belarus. This is a nice example of the culture of Belarus being spread abroad, and that's okay. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I really think that we should dicuss it case by case, possibly with involvement of Wikiprojects, unlike you I don't consider myself expert on every culture on earth. Category:Azerbaijani culture is the best example of that, afaik state of Azerbaijan isn't the main center of Azerbaijani culture. Azerbaijani culture shows it quite well. Marcelus (talk) 16:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I've posted invitations to participate in this CfR to WikiProject Countries and WikiProject Culture. I don't think it will be necessary to request permission from everyone at, say, WP:WikiProject Andorra to rename Category:Andorran culture to Category:Culture of Andorra if the main article has been called Culture of Andorra since 2004 and the scope of the main article and adjoining category have remained unchanged for the past 19 years. But if you think so, go ahead. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
@Marcelus, please can you clarify your position? Above you said Culture of foo is much better category name, as it is much broader but you seems to be suggesting into should reviewed case by case here. Qwerfjkltalk 20:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Viziers of the medieval Islamic world

Relisted, see Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:Viziers of the medieval Islamic world

Category:Greek Orthodoxy by continent

Relisted, see Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:Greek Orthodoxy by continent

Wikipedians who believe that a hot dog is (not) a sandwich

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: speedy delete per author request. ✗plicit 13:24, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Nominator's rationale: Fails WP:USERCAT for lacking any discernible collaborative function. * Pppery * it has begun... 13:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Recipients of the Ulloor Award

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 21:04, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SHAREDNAME, WP:OCAWARD, and WP:NONDEFINING
There are 3 different "Ulloor Awards" issued by 2 different organisations that are all named after renowned Malayalam poet Ulloor S. Parameswara Iyer. In practice the 2 articles in this category don't treat the award as defining, (1) mentioning it in passing with other honours or (2) not mentioning it at all. The recipients are already listified here, here and here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Prix Emmanuel Roblès recipients

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 21:04, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCAWARD and WP:NONDEFINING
The Emmanuel Roblès Prize is a French literary award for an author's first novel. The award might be initially defining for these young authors but, by the time they are notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article, this award is usually mentioned in passing with other honours. This is one of many French literary award categories created in late 2016/early 2017 by a banned editor. The contents are already listified here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Military personnel of the medieval Islamic world

Relisted, see Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:Military personnel of the medieval Islamic world

Category:People associated with the University of Auckland

Relisted, see Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:People associated with the University of Auckland