Revision as of 19:54, 5 November 2023 editHomerethegreat (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,685 edits →In reference to Jewish Zealotry of the 1st Century: new sectionTag: New topic← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 02:27, 10 January 2025 edit undoPARAKANYAA (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers44,795 edits →Requested move 7 January 2025: ReplyTag: Reply |
(34 intermediate revisions by 15 users not shown) |
Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
{{talkheader}} |
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
⚫ |
{{ARBPIA}} |
|
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= |
|
|
|
{{oldafdmulti|collapse=yes |numbered=yes |
⚫ |
{{WikiProject Judaism |class=C |importance=Mid}} |
|
|
|
|date=13 August 2008 |result='''keep''' |page=Jewish terrorism |
⚫ |
{{WikiProject Terrorism |class=C |importance=Mid}} |
|
|
⚫ |
|date2=24 April 2010 |result2='''speedy keep''' |page2=Islamic terrorism}} |
⚫ |
{{WikiProject Religion |class=C |importance=Low}} |
|
|
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|collapsed=yes |1= |
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject Judaism|importance=Mid}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Crime|importance=Mid|terrorism=yes |terrorism-imp=Mid|organizedcrime=yes|organizedcrime-imp=mid|serialkiller=yes|serialkiller-imp=mid}} |
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject Religion|importance=Low}} |
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject Israel|importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Palestine|importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject International relations|importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Military history|SciTech=yes|b1=no|b2=no|b3=yes|b4=yes|b5=no}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Politics|importance=mid}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Disaster management|importance=mid}} |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
⚫ |
{{User:MiszaBot/config|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}} |
⚫ |
{{oldafdmulti|date=13 August 2008|result='''keep'''|page=Jewish terrorism |date2=24 April 2010|result2='''speedy keep'''|page2=Islamic terrorism|collapse=yes|numbered=yes}} |
|
|
⚫ |
|maxarchivesize = 150K |
|
{{Controversial}} |
|
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
⚫ |
|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}} |
|
⚫ |
|maxarchivesize = 125K |
|
|
|counter = 2 |
|
|counter = 2 |
|
|minthreadsleft = 3 |
|
|minthreadsleft = 3 |
|
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 |
|
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 |
|
|algo = old(90d) |
|
|algo = old(30d) |
|
|archive = Talk:Jewish extremist terrorism/Archive %(counter)d |
|
|archive = Talk:Jewish extremist terrorism/Archive %(counter)d |
|
}} |
|
}} |
⚫ |
{{ARBPIA}} |
|
|
{{Archive box|bot=MiszaBot I|age=90|auto=yes|search=yes}} |
|
|
__TOC__ |
|
__TOC__ |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Hebrew Article Photo == |
⚫ |
== Requested move 4 September 2023 == |
|
|
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
|
|
|
|
|
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.'' |
|
|
|
|
|
'''Moved as proposed'''. After much-extended time for discussion, there is a clear consensus for a move away from the current title. The preferred move target is somewhat hazier, but a majority of those participating prefer the proposed "extremist". ] ] 19:50, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
] → {{no redirect|Jewish extremist terrorism}} – Terrorism is not a consequence of “religious” views, but rather of extremist views. An entire religion should not be associated with terrorism, but only the extremists within it. The proposed title meets the '''precision''' test in ] and complies with ] much better than the current title. There seems to be strong support in an ongoing discussion on the ] talk-page for changing that title to ], and we should make similar move requests for ], ], etc.. ] (]) 18:13, 4 September 2023 (UTC) <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' ] <sup>(]) </sup> 00:31, 13 September 2023 (UTC)</small> |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi folks. Can someone add this photo to the article which is in the Hebrew language article(https://he.wikipedia.org/%D7%98%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A8_%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95%D7%93%D7%99_%D7%91%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C)?: |
|
*'''Support:''' per the above and the first sentence of the which defines the subject as terrorism by "extremists within Judaism", and considering the important point that almost all terrorism is on some level partly political, so purely "religious terrorism" is a bit of a misnomer and practically non-existent in practice. The actual examples on this page are deeply entwined with politics. ] (]) 19:32, 4 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Support''' I think arguments above and in ongoing discussions at ] have shown some consensus for these these sorts of changes. ]<sup>]</sup> 01:24, 5 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Support''' --06:56, 5 September 2023 (UTC)--] (]) |
|
|
*'''Support''' Existing title is unusual/strange. There's many ways to interpret "religious terrorism" - does it mean motivated by religious belief or terrorising the religion of others? Unclear and fails CRIT Naturalness. Proposed title is clear and straightforward. ] (]) 10:31, 7 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
::Actually, it's not clear and straightforward. Given that Jewishness is both a religion and an ancestry, we are removing clarity by removing religion from the title. Maybe religion is wrong, but that's another matter. ] (]) 00:07, 29 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Move to ]''' per ] for consistency with ]. And per ], as all terrorists are, by definition, extremists. Which makes "extremist terrorism" redundant. ] (]) 04:16, 8 September 2023 (UTC) ] (]) 04:14, 8 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
*:If a consensus supports this proposed move, I'll propose a similar move from ] to ] and from ] to ]. Per ] we should not associate terrorism generally with a religious group or ethnicity, but only with an extreme wing of it. NPOV is a core policy, whereas ] is not. ] (]) 05:35, 8 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
*::Agreed. I think it would be premature to go on a spree of move requests when you don't know the outcome here. ]<sup>]</sup> 05:46, 8 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
*:We need to consider this aspect also: Both religious terrorism and extremist terrorism involve the use of violence for ideological purposes, the key distinction lies in the primary motivation and targets. Religious terrorism is driven by religious beliefs and often targets those perceived as threats to those beliefs, while extremist terrorism can be rooted in various ideologies and may have a broader range of targets. It's important to note that not all religious individuals or extremist groups engage in terrorism, and the majority of religious and extremist movements are non-violent. --] (]) 06:28, 8 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
*::The latter point is not a source of confusion; these articles ''are'' about terrorism, not about non-violent extremists. To the first point I would reiterate that "]" is itself a disputed term. The more NPOV synonym for terrorism is "political violence", and the reason for this is that the word terrorism contains the sense of violence for political ends. Political violence by groups with religious sympathies is still political violence; why they might be inspired by religious ideology (in the same way that domestic terrorism might be inspired by xenophobia), the end result is still violence with a political goal - making a political statement, changing the conversation or public opinion, intimidating political opponents or attempting to effect the structures of government themselves. In contrast, it is hard to think of an example of something that might be construed as ''pure'' "religious terrorism" without some sort of political end. On this page, the Zealots explicitly instigated a rebellion against Rome; it was political in the extreme. ] (]) 07:03, 8 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
* '''Move to ]'''. I'm in agreement with the consistency and concision point sraised by Rreagan007. The status quo has the modifier "religious" which serves little purpose, unless there's more ethnically but non-religiously Jewish terrorism out there than I'm aware of. The proposed modifier "extremist" is redundant to "terrorism". I'm sympathetic to NightHeron's view on needing to associate terrorist acts with the extremists, not whole religions, but this is the job of the articles and leads, not the titles. I suppose we could have a discussion about moving all "X terrorism" to "X extremist terrorism", but I don't think it'll help. ] (] / ]) 13:26, 12 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Comment''': Note that a move request to ] was discussed in the previous thread earlier this year and failed to get consensus. ] (]) 02:50, 13 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Move to ]''' per ], there is already ] and ]. Or, potentially as pointed out in the lead of the ] article, that's not a good term and we could rename them all "X extremist terrorism". We should probably consider these three things and their associated list articles etc together. But for now I'd say ] takes precedence before that discussion takes place ] (]) 15:16, 13 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
*'''Suggestion.''' I'm not sure I agree with the new name, but the current name definitely needs some work. I can see the merit behind specifying "religious", however, as some might make a distinction between their race/ethnonationalism and their religious practices which is somewhat unique to the demographic. However, this might only be necessary to prevent confusion with another potential "Jewish racial terrorism" page which I don't think exists. Maybe ]? not sure. However, it is interesting that this page is called "political violence". As you suggest, "terrorist" is not very neutral and probably should be replaced with "extremist" or something. ] (]) 17:10, 13 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Move to "Jewish terrorism"''' per MarkiPoli. Either way, the current title is clearly not consistent with the other religious terrorism articles, nor is it neutral. ] ] 01:57, 14 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Support''' per ]]. ~~] (]<span style="color:55a7db">|</span>]) 04:04, 14 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
https://he.wikipedia.org/%D7%98%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A8_%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95%D7%93%D7%99_%D7%91%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C#/media/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A5:Shfaramsqr.jpg |
|
:'''Support''' per ] |
|
|
:--] (]) 12:05, 28 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
Thanks.] (]) 04:56, 30 April 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== ] == |
|
:'''Oppose''' Given that Jewishness is both a religion and an ancestry, we are removing clarity by removing "religious" from the title. Maybe "religious" is wrong, but that's another matter that is being avoided here. ] (]) 00:09, 29 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Is there any reason why this terrorist bombing isn't mentioned in the article? '']''<sup>]</sup> 09:42, 14 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
:'''Comment''': "religious" ''is'' the wrong word, since the terrorists are not necessarily particularly religious, and it is often nationalism (toward Israel) or hatred (toward Palestinians) that motivates them. In the article title we should not be suggesting that a high degree of religiosity correlates with terrorism. What is undeniable is that extremism correlates with terrorism, which is why I suggested at the top of this thread that the word "religious" be replaced by "extremist". ] (]) 00:29, 29 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:It is my understanding from the introduction of this article that it concerns religious-motivated terrorism,and the bombing of the King David Hotel is more of a nationalist character than a religious one. ] (]) 19:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
== the picture == |
|
|
|
::The articles name is "Jewish extremist terrorism" and the lead states "Jewish extremist terrorism is terrorism, including religious terrorism, committed by extremists within Judaism". The lead only states that religious terrorism is included, not that other forms of terrorism are excluded. '']''<sup>]</sup> 23:31, 23 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::That what appears from the categories and templates in which this article is included. |
|
|
:::A ] concerning the more national or ethnic character of Jewish political violence/terrorism is in existence,in which the incident is addressed. |
|
|
:::] (]) 11:27, 24 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::Thanks for pointing that article out to me. '']''<sup>]</sup> 23:07, 24 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::Most welcome ] (]) 23:12, 24 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
⚫ |
== Requested move 7 January 2025 == |
|
the picture is fucked up. can someone change it? ] (]) 19:35, 7 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
:What picture? ] (]) 22:31, 7 September 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
== "]" listed at ] == |
|
|
] |
|
|
The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 15#Judaism and terrorism}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] ] 20:02, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
== "]" listed at ] == |
|
|
] |
|
|
The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 15#Judaism and terror}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] ] 20:02, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
== "]" listed at ] == |
|
|
] |
|
|
The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 15#Jewish religious violence}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] ] 20:07, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
== "]" listed at ] == |
|
|
] |
|
|
The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 15#Jewish religious extremism}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] ] 20:08, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{requested move/dated|Jewish terrorism}} |
|
== In reference to Jewish Zealotry of the 1st Century == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
] → {{no redirect|Jewish terrorism}} – This current page title is at odds with the literature on the subject, which in no uncertain terms and without caveats uses the phrase "Jewish terrorism". This is not a controversial or even contested phrase; far from it, it is the only phrase with substantial usage on the subject – see and also the - most of the titles of which speak for themselves. The term is used both as an academic term in the context of history, and as a very present-day term to refer to certain groups within modern Jewish society, as exemplified by the issued in August 2024 by the Israeli intelligence chief. So this language is neither novel, nor non-current. More broadly, terrorism ''is'' extremism by default, so the insertion of "extremist" here (by wiki community invention and intervention) is grossly redundant and tautologous – hence why it finds so little currency among subject-matter experts. ] (]) 17:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
Seems disconnected from the rest of article. Perhaps section should be moved somewhere else? Most of article is in reference to Jewish terrorism of the 20th and 21 century. ] (]) 19:54, 5 November 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
*'''Leaning support''': We seem to have {{-r|Christian terrorism}} and {{-r|Hindu terrorism}} and {{-r|Islamic terrorism}} as article titles, but this one has "extremist" inserted into it for no clear reason that I can see. The suggested title is more ] and ]. As far as I can guess, the extra word is just unnecessary ]. — ] (]) 19:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
|
*:Perhaps because "Jewish", unlike Christian, Hindu and Islamic is also an ethnic term. No ] and ], ] are redirects. Not saying our current structure or naming makes sense, but there is at least a prima facie reason for treating "Jewish" differently from other religous terms. ] (]) 21:49, 8 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
|
*::So yes, this has been pointed out before, but it isn't a reason to ignore the sourcing on the subject and come up with original, unconcise terminology. To look at it from the opposite direction, there is no Tamil, Basque or Uyghur religion, and those identities aren't religion-based, so there is also a reason for different treatment here from these other terms. ] (]) 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
|
:* '''Comment''' I’ve generally felt that ] as an article title isn’t right, but I would note that this article links to ] when describing Jewish extremism. This isn’t right, as this is simply a religious movement (fundamentalism isn’t the same thing as extremism) and many acts which have been described as Jewish terrorism were committed by secular nationalist groups, for example. |
|
|
:] (]) 20:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
|
:* '''Move'''. "Extremist" is not a precisely defined term. Either all terrorism is extremist, or there is terrorism that is not extremist but we would want to include it anyway. The terrorism is what defines it. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 05:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) |
|
|
:'''Support'''. Succinct, we have Christian terrorism as an article. ] (]) 02:27, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |