| Revision as of 07:11, 8 November 2023 editEntropyandvodka (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,641 edits OneClickArchived "Rename it" to Talk:Israeli war crimes/Archive 1← Previous edit |
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|title = Misplaced Pages hates Israel and Jews |
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== Israeli War Crime Updates plus Gaza Death and Injury Statistics == |
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== Requested move 11 October 2023 == |
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<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' |
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The result of the move request was: '''Moved'''. Numerically, there is a majority of almost 2:1 in favour of the proposal here. And when evaluating the arguments made by the nominator and others, particularly around consistency with the names used for this topic in other countries, due weight issues and the observation that almost all states have been implicated in war crimes in one way or another, there is a convincing case made. The opposition votes focus mainly on the disputed nature of many of the claims of war crimes by Israel... but that was countered with the observation that the same is true for many other countries' pages, yet we have a consistent naming convention across all. Hence I see a consensus to move to the proposed title of ''Israeli war crimes''. Cheers — ] (]) 22:38, 31 October 2023 (UTC) |
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---- |
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] → {{no redirect|Israeli war crimes}} – The current title is against ] and ]. The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice, the High Contracting Parties to the Convention and the most lawyers have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the Israeli-occupied territories, it means that Israel has committed a war crime by building settlements. Also, other articles about war crimes of other countries do not use "allegations"; Like ], ], ], ] and ]. '''Update''': So ] and ] who were convicted, is Israel claiming against itself? ] (]) 20:44, 11 October 2023 (UTC) <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' ] (]) 13:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Support''' per nom. The existing title is also confusing and ambiguously phrased - when I first looked at it, I thought it was talking about alleged war crimes against Israel. ] (]) 00:23, 12 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Neutral for now''' - I '''support''' this in principle, but given that the nom provided no refs I would have to '''oppose''' for ] purposes. For that reason I am '''neutral for now'''. ] (]) ] 00:50, 12 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nom; the information about the Geneva Convention and settlements make sense. I tried to come up with a title that was neutral but I can see now it's just confusingly worded. ] (]) 12:48, 12 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' It is blatant POV to name the article Allegations of war crimes against Israel when other similar articles don't couch the subject in such language, and bad writing. The title could also be interpreted to mean allegations of war crimes committed against Israel. ] | ] 18:11, 12 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per ]. The current title is ambiguous because it can be read to mean war crimes committed against Israel rather than by Israel. ] (]) 20:58, 12 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per the existing explanations of the ample scope for confusion based on the present syntax. ] (]) 21:06, 12 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' The word "''against''" in the title suggests Israel is the victim of "''Alleged war crimes''"by another party. In the current context of Israeli/Palestinian conflict, this title is totally misleading and can easily be interpreted as being about the opposite of what the article appears to be about. Besides, the article does not just cover the allegations it also deals with how the allegation made were prosecuted, so the article has gone beyond the scope of the title, suggesting the title is too restrictive, too. In the process of moving the article, I would recommend the title be deleted by moving the article without leaving a redirect. If a title is to be left, I would suggest it point somewhere else. - ] (]) 11:39, 13 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nom. ] (]) 14:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' Virtually no state involved in a large scale armed conflict has NOT been responsible for any war crimes (just murdering or torturing 1 person would qualify). The current title suggests that it is substantially disputed in RS that Israel has committed at least two war crimes, but this is not the case. (] · ]) ''']''' 16:26, 13 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. I think this has been discussed many times, ''with mixed results'', on talk page of ]. This whole subject is a huge controversy, with claims, denials and disputes by all sides. Based on that, I would oppose to renaming and leave this page as it is, similar to pages ] or ]. Just to clarify, I think that many items currently included to this page can not be stated in WP voice (i.e. as a matter of fact) as ]. ] (]) 18:05, 13 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::Here is why this subject is tricky. A lot of civilians are dying during any serious military conflict. What really makes the difference is only the ''intention'' by the side (Israel in this case). There are 3 different general situations here: (a) the side has intentionally targeted civilians as was established by an international court or just obvious (consider something like ] or ]), (b) it simply did not matter for the side if they attacked civilians or military (this is known as ]s), or (c) some care has been arguably/possibly taken to minimize the civilian casualties, but there were multiple ''allegations'' of war crimes. From what I read on this subject, this is mostly case (c). ] (]) 01:28, 18 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I don't think this is an accurate characterization of the situation. The UN fact finding mission showed cases of deliberate attacks on civilian buildings, the deliberate killing of civilians unlawfully designated as military targets, indiscriminate attacks that killed civilians, the deliberate shooting and killing of civilians in areas the IDF fully controlled (in some cases while civilians were waving white flags and attempting surrender), denial of medical treatment and evacuation of wounded civilians, ''intentional'' missile strikes against civilians, the use of human shields, detaining civilians and depriving them of food, water and sanitation, the degrading treatment of captured civilians, beatings and torture of captured civilians, to name a few. |
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:::Many nation-states, as policy, take care, or claim to, to minimize the killing of civilians. And those nation states also commit war crimes. It may not have been US policy to commit the My Lai massacre, but the war crime was nonetheless committed. With the nature of some of the crimes I listed, intent isn't a reasonable legal defense. It's hard to argue shooting surrendering civilians, torturing and degrading treatment of detained civilians, or using civilians as human shields wasn't intentional. Given the (a)(b)(c) framework you outlined, there are clear cases of (a) and (b), and likely also cases of (c). |
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:::I think a more accurate characterization is that the international system is not effective at prosecuting war crimes, regardless in many cases of clear, documented facts of their commission. As for what is statable in Wiki voice, pointing again to My Lai as an example (as I'm sure we'd both agree this is a war crime), the opening sentence of the article states, in Wiki voice: "The My Lai massacre was a war crime committed by United States Army personnel on 16 March 1968, involving the mass murder of unarmed civilians in Sơn Tịnh district, South Vietnam, during the Vietnam War." It doesn't state it was an allegation of a war crime against the US Army, but only an actual war crime of William Calley, the only one convicted. ] | ] 05:57, 18 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Well, I am simply reading the lead of this page under discussion. The lead summarizes this page well, and the content of the page is well sourced. It says: |
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::::{{quotation2|Over the course of several decades, the Israel Defense Forces, the military branch of the state of Israel, has been subject to various allegations of war crimes. The government of Israel has denied any wrongdoing, and neither Israel nor the IDF have ever been formally charged with committing war crimes. Since 2021, however, the International Criminal Court has had an active investigation into allegations of Israeli war crimes committed in the Palestinian Occupied Territories....}} |
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:::::'''Allegations'''. ] (]) 10:52, 18 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::P.S. Yes, the ] was a war crime. Of course. But it was not by Israel. Something like ]? That would be pretty much (a) - see above.] (]) 11:00, 18 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::I'd argue that the first sentence there may be a misleading summary of the facts. While true that Israel has been the subject of many allegations of war crimes, there are numerous documented cases by the UN fact finding mission that have been recommended for prosecution. The report I linked shows clear cases of both (a) and (b), with recommendations for prosecutions. |
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::::::It is an inconsistent standard to name other articles about other countries X war crimes, but stress they are merely allegations with respect to Israel. Many of the war crimes discussed in other articles are also technically in the legal state of allegations, simply because the international system is ineffective at pursuing charges, and the governments responsible often don't prosecute their own soldiers. |
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::::::It is reasonable to discuss the nuance of all this in the article, but insufficient to qualify a special exception for the article's name. ] | ] 16:34, 18 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::To drive this point home further, do a cursory reading of the article on Russian war crimes, looking at the language used in Wiki voice and the actual content of the sources. Multiple times in its lead it makes statements in Wiki voice that directly assert Russia is guilty of war crimes, or state as a matter of fact that Russia committed war crimes (some of which heavily imply that issued statements or accusations are actual legal rulings). The sources used to support these lines are often the same or similar that assert Israel committed war crimes (such as the OHCHR). ] | ] 17:03, 18 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::In short, Misplaced Pages can't be used in the following way: When HRW issues a statement that Russia committed a war crime, it's a war crime, but when HRW issues a statement Israel committed a war crime, it's an allegation. ] | ] 18:26, 18 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::"When HRW issues..." You seem to base your judgement on statements by a single source, which is just one of many sources on the subject. I believe that summaries on both pages were more or less correct, even though they were different, simply because the content of the page about war crimes in Ukraine and the content of this page are <u>very very much different</u>. To put it simple, if Russian forces are conducting genocide in Ukraine, it does not mean that IDF does the same in Gaza. ] (]) 03:13, 21 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::That was a rhetorical example to illustrate the problem with the broader practice readily observable by comparing these two articles, and you haven't refuted my point; there are numerous other sources making accusations than HRW. |
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:::::::::::In my view, it would be very inappropriate for the Russia article to have the second sentence shift the article's focus to a Russian denial of the allegations, or stress how relative few convictions these allegations yielded, yet this is precisely what the Israel article does. This is not for lack of allegations or lack of sources, but for undue weight and POV focus, the overall manner in which the article describes the topic. If it is acceptable to say "Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have recorded Russian war crimes", then it follows that we should state "Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have recorded Israeli war crimes" when both have made damning accusations against Israel. You can't, in wiki voice, take those two sources as recording facts in one case, but merely making allegations in another, when they're all, in fact, allegations made by those two sources. And again, these aren't the only two sources. ] | ] 18:38, 22 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::You say: ''and you haven't refuted my point; there are numerous other sources making accusations than HRW.'' Yes, exactly, there are many other sources '''making accusations'''. This only supports my point. As about examples of war crimes committed by other countries (USA and Russia), they are irrelevant here.] (]) 17:31, 29 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::Two Israelis were convicted of war crimes. Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Golan Heights have been classified as illegal (and therefore a war crime) by the institutions I mentioned above, as well as several highly respected human rights organizations, academic sources, and many legal scholars. That these are just "accusations" is false and a violation of ]. ] (]) 18:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::What can be stated in wiki voice when the sources are accusations or allegations by human rights groups and international bodies is very much relevant here; it is the inconsistency with this article's name compared to others that is central to the discussion, and why they were pointed out for comparison. |
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::::::::::::::And, as @] just pointed out, it's no longer just an allegation when it results in a conviction. The name is incompatible with those facts and must be changed accordingly. ] | ] 19:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nom, similar articles about other countries' militaries do not characterize documented war crimes as "alleged." ] (]) 05:28, 14 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nom, the articles should be neutral and/or show a neutral point of view, therefore the word "allegations" in the title can be characterized as one-sided and should be removed. ] (]) 14:35, 14 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''': per ] and ]. Most, if not all, other articles concerning war crimes by a specific country are in the format {{tq|"country" war crimes}} and not {{tq|allegations of war crimes against "country"}}. ] (])<sup><span style="color:Green"><small>Ping me!</small></span></sup> 00:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per consistency across equivalent titles as well as ]. Also this discussion requires extended confirmed to participate. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 02:56, 15 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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*<s>'''Support''' per nom. Israeli war crimes is a more accurate & easier to read title. ] (]) 12:56, 15 October 2023 (UTC)</s> <small>Struck per ] and ]. — ]] 13:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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*<s>'''Merge''' - If we take a look at its history, ] is an article that already existed before it was redirected. ] (]) 12:59, 15 October 2023 (UTC)</s> <small>Struck per ] and ]. — ]] 13:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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*:@] can you explain what you mean by "merge"? ''']''' <sub>]</sub> 16:18, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:As far as I can tell, there isn't an article to merge it into. Was this article previously titled Israeli war crimes and then the name changed? ] | ] 17:44, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*::<s> was an article that was unilaterally first redirected to ] before the redirect was changed to ]. Therefore, ] must be restored as an article and the contents of this article be merged into it. ] (]) 18:23, 15 October 2023 (UTC)</s> <small>Struck per ] and ]. — ]] 13:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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*<s>'''Support''' per nom</s>*'''Restore & Merge''' as suggested by Pirate of the High Seas. Restore the ] article and merge this article into it. --] (]) 18:49, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nom. - ] (]) 18:14, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*<s>'''Neutral''' for now because many articles illustrate the precedent for treating allegations as allegations and not as a decided fact. There are manifold examples such as ], ], or ],.Compare ] where the settlements have been declared illegal under international law and Misplaced Pages still doesn't make a declarative statement in the title. If there is an actual legal finding of criminal activity then I would support a change but on Misplaced Pages it is usually best advised that we don't call something a crime until there has been an official finding of criminal activity. ] (]) 20:56, 15 October 2023 (UTC)</s> <small>Struck per ] and ]. — ]] 13:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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*:<s>Sexual abuse allegations against individuals can't be stated as a matter of fact until proven because of BLP issues. So mentioning them and comparing it with war crimes committed by a state is like comparing apples and oranges. ] (]) 12:46, 16 October 2023 (UTC)</s> <small>Struck per ] and ]. — ]] 13:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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::*Yes, the criminal ''allegations against individuals can't be stated as a matter of fact until proven'', and not only because of BLP, but also because of WP:NPOV (BLP is based on NPOV). Ideally, the same should also apply to groups of people and nations. ] (]) 01:37, 18 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nom, It's also a very ambiguous and deceptive title. ] (]) 22:37, 16 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' against removing attribution from title. Moreover, some parts of this article are supported by sources which don't even mention 'war crimes'. ] (]) 04:58, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:'''Strongly oppose'''. I’m surprised at the votes of support—there is obviously no scholarly/historical/political consensus on the reality of Israel’s alleged war crimes. It’s a hotly-contested matter… so the matter should be presented as a dialogue, which it is. ] (]) 05:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::Most war crimes are hotly contested, yet the naming of this particular article (and frankly some of the writing, but let's focus on the title first) is inconsistent with how other war crimes articles are handled when the subject is another country. Misplaced Pages must handle them all in line with its principles of a neutral point of view. |
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::The implication of the title is that these are ''merely'' allegations, when coupled with the naming of articles like United States war crimes, Russian war crimes, etc. It implicitly makes a judgement on the issue. Given that the article even includes a section on prosecutions, with punishments and convictions, it is inappropriate for the title to imply all allegations of war crimes against Israel were no more than allegations. ] | ] 21:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment''' I received an email summons to this thread. The email goes {{tq|Subject: Important vote. Body: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Allegations_of_war_crimes_against_Israel#Requested_move_11_October_2023 They want to remove the attribution (aka allegations). Could you please also remove the parts in article where sources don't mention 'war crimes'? Iskandar323 would do exactly that if it was an article on Palestinian war crimes -- This email was sent by user "Randy Atkins" (<https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Randy_Atkins>) on the English Misplaced Pages to user "Orgullomoore".}} I believe strongly in transparency on Misplaced Pages. If this is not a violation of policy, it's my opinion that it's inappropriate because it could unfairly allow a user to secretly hand pick users he believes will support his argument and !vote the way he wants. For that reason, I will not participate in the move discussion (which I was not even aware of before receiving the secret summons).--] (]) 05:56, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:] worth looking at this along with the set of Yaniv socks spamming accounts to vote in AFDs? Shocking development that other users who appear to have come after the email notification there are showing up here, but Im sure thats just totally above board and not related to the email canvassing. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 10:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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::When did you receive the email summons? ] is a confirmed sockpuppet account of ]. I think some of the Oppose votes after that email's date might not be organic but biased. Plus we have already reached a consensus and more than 7 days have passed. ] (]) 17:37, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::{{u|DemianStratford}} On 19 October 2023 at 12:44 a.m. (]).-- ] (]) 18:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Its absolutely gobsmacking that a number of editors who happen to attend a number of discussions that have had email canvassing confirmed show up here after email canvassing. Just astonishing (shocked pikachu face and everything so you can tell how non-sarcastic Im being). <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 18:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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::::Yes, it's not a coincidence, this innocent talk is being bombarded with 'Oppose' votes by users who got that email telling them about the vote. Isn't this against the rules? Also, they even opened a new topic below for some reason. There's lots of weird things going on. Hey, ], what do you think? Brigading, sockpuppets, cherrypicking users to influence a vote. I don't think that's good. ] (]) 19:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::{{Ping|DemianStratford}} It should be reported. ] (]) 21:30, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::Looks like all the effort is paying off - I'm finally the talk of the town. ] (]) 18:26, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*<s>'''Strongly oppose'''. The current title adopts a neutral and cautious approach, using "Alleged war crimes" to acknowledge the ongoing debate and absence of consensus. A change to "Israeli war crimes" is implying a definitive judgment using Misplaced Pages's voice. ] (]) 07:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)</s><small>sock of banned user</small> |
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*:{{Ping|LUC995}} ] tells us that there need not necessarily be consensus. ] (]) 08:55, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:<s>'''Oppose''' For the time being, there is no consensus on the matter. Therefore, also the lack of refs to justify it and we need to keep following the ]. Please don't turn[REDACTED] into another news media, supporting one side or the other, cause it will slowly loose credibility that way and we don't want it to happen ] (]) 08:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC)</s> {{small|{{a note}} ] and ] restriction applies.}} |
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::{{Ping|Sunshine SRA}} ] tells us that consensus is not necessarily needed, especially since the authoritative bodies I cited above have all indirectly confirmed that Israel committed war crimes. ] (]) 09:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' per ] . ] (]) 09:07, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::{{Ping|Marokwitz}} See ] ] (]) 09:29, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::This policy does not apply to naming. See ]. Descriptive titles should be worded neutrally, so as not to suggest a viewpoint ''for'' or ''against'' a topic, or to confine the content of the article to views on a particular side of an issue . Having said that, the article should be renamed to 'Allegations of war crimes by Israel' as 'against' has a double meaning. ] (]) 10:22, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::There's ], ], ], ], ], etc. It makes prefect sense that 'Israeli war crimes' also exists. Frankly, I don't see any convincing reason to oppose the title (it already existed, in fact). ] (]) 19:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' per ] and ]; the proposed title is both more clear about the article's main topic and consistent with other articles about "war crimes by (example country)". ] (]) 12:15, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' The present title conveys a neutral position. Better stay away from using ] to confirm the unconfirmed.] (]) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*: It's not at all neutral. It uses the word "against", making it seem like Israel is the victim of accusations here. The title is biased. There's ], ], ], ], ], etc. Israel shouldn't be any different. ] (]) 18:16, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:Using WP:VOICE to categorize everything as allegations only deviates from a position of neutrality. ] | ] 19:38, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:With this argument, the name of ] should be changed because there is a difference of opinion as to whether it is occupation or not. ] (]) 08:23, 20 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' as non-neutral. Also most of the page would have to be removed as it is full of unsubstantiated allegations. ] (]) 15:15, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:Exactly what does "unsubstantiated" mean? The allegations are clearly made with RS, and some have included disciplinary actions, prosecutions, convictions. If the bar was set such that only allegations resulting in convictions could be discussed in an "X war crimes" article, most of the content of all these articles would require removal, as most war crimes remain in the legal state of allegation. ] | ] 18:06, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support'''. There is no question that Israel is committing war crimes, so the proposed title is more neutral and closer to reality. —<span style="font-variant:small-caps">''']'''</span> <small>] | ] ]</small> 19:03, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''', the page is full of wild unproven allegations. ---Lilach5 (]) ] 19:21, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:Which resulted in prosecutions and some convictions, along with highly detailed statements from human rights groups and the UN. ] | ] 19:30, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''': NPOV request based on opinions, not a consensus of reliable sources, article is full of unsubstantiated allegations from one side and needs cleanup. <span style="font-family:Courier;"><b> // ] :: ] </b></span> 22:12, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:Can you state specifically what you mean by "unsubstantiated"? There are hundreds, if not thousands of pages of material substantiating Israeli war crimes. ] | ] 07:12, 20 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose:''' suggested title indicates that there is a consensus regarding the claims, which is simply not the case. The current title is more ] and not taking a stance (which is not wikipedia's role). Like have been stated above me ] and ] are not referring to titles. ] (]) 04:16, 20 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:{{tq|Misplaced Pages aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject. '''This rule applies not only to article text but to images, wikilinks, external links, categories, templates, and all other material as well.'''}} |
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*:With this argument, the name of ] should be changed because there is a difference of opinion as to whether it is occupation or not. ] (]) 08:22, 20 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:Consensus among whom? Human rights groups? The UN? They've determined Israel to have committed war crimes. ] | ] 11:47, 20 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. "Israeli war crimes" would be non-neutral, and also would be an inaccurate description of an article that contains numerous unproven allegations. ] (]) 09:18, 20 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' I've alluded to this elsewhere in this discussion, but feel it needs to be more explicitly stated, as it has not been satisfactorily addressed, if even acknowledged. Comparing this article to other X war crimes articles, there are some noteworthy differences in how the leads are written, as well as the body of the article, when covering the subject matter of allegations; some editors may be citing improprieties with this article as justification for keeping the article's title. This creates a self-reinforcing loop: if the article puts undue emphasis on the fact that an assertion by an independent body is legally still an allegation, and consistently does this, this affords editors opposed to the title change an argument citing what is likely undue weight in the article. |
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:Compare the first sentence of this article to the first sentence of the Russian war crimes article: |
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:Israel: |
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:"Over the course of several decades, the Israel Defense Forces, the military branch of the state of Israel, has been subject to various allegations of war crimes." |
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:Russia: |
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:"Russian war crimes are the violations of the international criminal law including war crimes, crimes against humanity and the crime of genocide which the official armed and paramilitary forces of the Russian Federation '''are accused of committing''' since the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991." (Bold added by me.) |
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:Both of these sentences roughly establish the same thing: the military of X country has been accused of war crimes. The lead for the Russian article explicitly defines the term "Russian war crimes" to not only include allegations, but to ultimately '''be''' allegations. |
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:Further, read the rest of the lead in the Russia article. It asserts in wiki voice that the same independent groups cited in the Israeli war crimes article (Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the OHCHR, etc) have "recorded Russian war crimes", "documented Russian war crimes", "found Russia guilty of war crimes" (that particular one cites an issued statement by the OHCHR, not a legal ruling from a trial), "published a report finding Russia guilty of war crimes", etc. The same groups have issued statements, published reports, made determinations and so on that allege Israel committed war crimes, but much of the language in this article, and the name of the article, put undue focus on the allegations aspect, despite the article having a section on prosecutions, which includes punishments and convictions. The preferential treatment this article, and its name, affords Israel on this subject is a screaming violation of ]. |
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:This is something that opponents of this name change have not yet addressed. I would remind them that this isn't a vote. It is an issue to be settled by force of argument. I would say that, thus far, nothing has been put forward to justify this disparity. If Misplaced Pages applied the standards being requested by opponents of the move to all other X war crimes articles, many, such as the Russia article, would look radically different.] | ] 18:37, 20 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:*This is not surprising because the actions by Russian army in Chechnya, Ukraine and Syria were very different from the actions by IDF so far. Hence the pages are different. Russian forces would not warn civilians to leave. During their war in Chechnya, their target #1 in every city/village was the ], their target #2 was the ]. This is all described in a book by ], for example. Targeting the ''civilian'' infrastructure is a hallmark of their operations in Ukraine. ] (]) 20:43, 20 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:*:Countries can, and regularly have, committed war crimes regardless of whether they "intend" to commit them or not. I doubt the article on Russian war crimes would read differently (nor should it) if Russia told people to leave ahead of time before bombing civilian infrastructure. ] (]) 03:52, 21 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::No, it does make a lot of difference because it proves ''intention''. Consider something like ]. Russian forces attacked a memorial service to kill 59 civilians and no any military. That was a precision strike with a powerful missile, and they had good intel: they knew exact time of the service. This is exactly opposite to making a warning, and it proves the ''intention'' to kill civilians. This is ''very'' different.] (]) 01:33, 22 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::@] Let me ask you this: if Russia claimed they were Actually aiming at military targets (and didn't intent to bomb civilians), would this make the act of killing 59 civilians with an airstrike less bad? ] (]) 04:53, 22 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::That is exactly what Russian government says. But it is irrelevant here. What is relevant in the context of the ongoing war? The ''fact'' that a significant number of civilians (perhaps tens or hundreds of thousands) did move from the Northern section of Gaza (which soon will probably become a wasteland) to the South after the warning by IDF. Sure thing, a lot of civilians will still remain in the northern section. But as soon as such effort has been made by IDF to minimize the civilian casualties (making such announcement, not hitting the civilians like Russian forces did during the ] or as Hamas attackers did in Israel, etc.), Israel can reasonably argue that the death of civilians was not a war crime. Therefore, we should use wording "allegations" in the title - the subject of this discussion. Will the civilians be safe at the South of Gaza? Of course not. The actual issue and a potential war crime is that they are not allowed to completely leave the area of warfare, i.e. Gaza Strip. ] (]) 18:13, 22 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::So when the Russian government says it was striking military targets in hospitals and mosques, it isn't relevant and shouldn't be given weight, but when the Israeli government says it was striking military targets in hospitals and mosques, it is not only relevant, but should be so heavily weighted as to be due in the name of the article? |
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:::::::We have human rights groups asserting Israeli war crimes, as well as UN rapporteurs and others. Israel will argue it hasn't committed war crimes, but they're not a reliable source for making that determination, just as Russia isn't in their own case, nor should they be given undue weight. Imagine if the article on Russian war crimes gave as much attention and weight to Russia's defenses for its actions as this article does for Israel. We would probably both see a huge problem with that. ] | ] 19:13, 22 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::How much due weight should be given to Israeli and Russian "defenses" depends on the coverage of such defenses in mainstream RS. These coverages are very different. Speaking on the "defenses" themselves, they are also very different. Russian MoD usually does not say it "was striking military targets in hospitals and mosques". It typically says that they simply never strike any hospitals, mosques or any other civilian targets. Period. ] (]) 19:46, 22 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Usually does not? After Russia launched the ]: |
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:::::::::{{blockquote|...the Russian ] and the ] claimed that bombing of the hospital was justified by the supposed presence of Ukrainian armed forces at Mariupol ''Maternity Hospital No 1''...}} |
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:::::::::And after the ]: |
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:::::::::{{blockquote|Russia denied the allegations and instead accused the ] of blowing up the building.}} |
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:::::::::And after the ]: |
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:::::::::{{blockquote|Russian Defense Ministry spokesman ] said that "] delivered a strike against hangars of weapons and ammunition from the United States and European countries in the area of the Kremenchuk road machinery factory." He also said: "The detonation of the munitions for western weaponry in storage led to a fire in a non-functioning shopping centre next to the factory."}} |
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:::::::::And after the ]: |
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:::::::::{{blockquote|A spokesman of the Russian Presidency, ], denied that Russia was attacking civilian objects in Ukraine and said that the targeted buildings were used for military purposes.}} |
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:::::::::I remain thoroughly unconvinced. ] (]) 16:53, 25 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::*I am not sure what is your point. Yes, Russian MoD lied. There was no Ukrainian military presence in the Mariupol theater or Kremenchug Mall. But it is completely irrelevant to this page. This is a different state and a very different army. Such argument rather serves as an indication that you guys are on the wrong side of the dispute. ] (]) 03:29, 29 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Please stop talking about Russia, it has nothing to do with anything about this page. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 03:30, 29 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::::::::Sorry about that, my bad. This definitely got sidetracked a bit. ] (]) 04:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Strongly support''' - see ], ], , and the fact that we have a category titled ]. The cognitive dissidence required to merely call these allegations is astounding. ] (]) 20:48, 20 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*{{Question}} Can anyone tell me who is more reliable than the above institutions that believe that the settlements are legal and why the name of the article Israeli-occupied territories is not changed to Israeli-disputed territories even though there is a difference of opinion on whether they are occupied? ] (]) 07:25, 24 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:What above institution believes the settlements are legal? And the difference of opinion among sources is skewed so heavily towards "occupied" over "disputed" that to use "disputed" would be a ] violation. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 04:21, 25 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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*::{{Ping|Nableezy}} I meant that just as the article "Israeli-occupied territories" is not called Israeli-disputed territories, this article should not be Allegations of war crimes against Israel. ] (]) 10:35, 28 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:<s>'''Strongly support''' - for all of the reasons listed by others above, Israel's war crimes are not a "question" ] (]) 10:34, 24 October 2023 (UTC)</s> <small>{{A note}} Struck per ] ]</small> |
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*'''Strongly support''' - For a variety of reasons, all of which have been mentioned above. It's been interesting to read the arguments (or lack thereof) put forth by those in favor of keeping the article name as it is... ] (]) 19:33, 25 October 2023 (UTC) |
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* '''Strong support''' there isn't anything else I can add that hasn't been said already. ] (]) 20:15, 25 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' to be consistent with equivalent titles like ] and the others, to follow ], and because the sourcing is good enough to do so. I'm not convinced by !oppose arguments based on sourcing concerns, since the sourcing is at least equivalent to other articles in the genre. But I would think that all post-canvassing comments should be ignored, including mine, since that's likely the best way to prevent such stealth canvassing from recurring by removing the incentive and the benefit to doing it. ] (]) 07:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. There might well, in Israel's 70-year history, have been incidents and events that are widely reported as war crimes by RS. But the article currently is dominated by ''alleged'' war crimes. If it's renamed, it would remain a catch-all article for any reporting about alleged war crimes, especially if we don't create a new correspondingly-titled article. If anything, the article could be split (but I would be opposed to that too, as it would involve some really fraught arbitrary line-drawing). --] (]) 20:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:{{Ping|Tserton}} The ] article is also full of accusations. Also, the fact that the article does not mention settlements does not mean that the name of the article should not be changed, because it can be included later. ] (]) 20:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*::Yeah, I would say that article's title should also be changed, along with most broad articles about ongoing conflicts. Unqualified "war crimes" articles should be reserved for more focused articles (I'm more comfortable with ], for example). Not sure why you're pinging me about settlements, though? ] (]) 20:53, 29 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::To read my reply ] (]) 21:00, 29 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' The Israel page is filled mostly with allegation, with most international body investigation either unresolved or still in progress. The page is not analogous to Russian War Crimes, or German War Crimes, etc… pages. I think the title is appropriate as it is.] (]) 03:46, 29 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:{{Ping|Mistamystery}} So ] and ] who were convicted, is Israel claiming against itself? ] (]) 12:27, 30 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:Just because the war crimes are different in nature from prior atrocities committed by Germany or ongoing crimes by Russia does not make them not war crimes. ] (]) 21:25, 30 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' This is the simplest way to express recent and past reporting that asserts clear evidence of war crimes (on both sides of the putative conflict), notwithstanding the absence of a conviction as yet.] (]) 12:02, 30 October 2023 (UTC) |
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===Discussion=== |
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War crimes obviously did happen, but the discussion above misses something fundamental. This is not just a renaming, this would also change the scope of the article. If the article is about *allegations* then it should include all notable allegations even if they haven't been verified. {{u|Parham wiki}}, in your opinion, if the article is renamed, what should the inclusion criteria be? ]<sub>]</sub> 06:50, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:Only a tiny fraction of the world's war crimes have actually been confirmed in the sense of someone having been prosecuted. Most remain at the level of assertion and assessments from human rights bodies and legal experts. This is mainly because the ICC, the only body really equipped to deal with such things, is a stagnant institution. ] (]) 06:53, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:In answer to the inclusion criteria, it should broadly reflect other similar articles, which rest largely on determinations by major groups that war crimes were committed, not solely on convictions. Look to the language used in Wiki voice and the sourcing for the articles about United States War Crimes and Russian War Crimes. A consistent standard should be applied on this issue across Misplaced Pages. As I pointed out elsewhere in the discussion, the My Lai massacre resulted only in one conviction, but the Misplaced Pages article does not limit discussion to that one individual, and it would be egregious to do so. ] | ] 07:22, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::It should also be noted that this article does discuss at least some convictions and punishments. ] | ] 08:22, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::I agree, we should be consistent with other "X country's war crimes" articles. To be more concrete, consider this example from the article |
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::{{cquote|the report said it was not possible for Amnesty International to be certain of what Israel was targeting; it also said that '''if there were no valid military objectives, international humanitarian law may have been violated''', as attacks directed at civilians and civilian objects, or attacks which are otherwise disproportionate relative to the anticipated military advantage of carrying them out, constitute war crimes}} |
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::So what should be done with this, especially if the article is renamed? ]<sub>]</sub> 08:55, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Including statements like that is still appropriate, provided they're accurate descriptions of what the sources say. The topic of the article is Israeli war crimes (which some here seem to argue translates to "Proven Instances of Israeli war crimes" rather than the name of the topic). When the source is saying a specific instance is conditionally a war crime, the article should accurately summarize or attribute a statement reflecting that conditionality, when sourced and relevant, without taking a view on it in Wiki voice. |
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:::The name of the article should be compatible with covering documented instances of, findings and determinations about, and allegations of Israeli war crimes, which it currently is not. ] | ] 21:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:::An additional note that has more to do with the content of the article than the title, if parts of the article are found to be giving undue weight to the defense of why something might not be a war crime, while not providing sufficient weight to the event the allegation is about and the merit of the allegation, those parts of the article should also be brought in line with Misplaced Pages standards of WP:NPOV, WP:DUE, and WP:WEIGHT. As I and others have discussed already, the very name of the article raises those concerns. I've noticed instances of this in the article, but that's for a separate discussion. ] | ] 00:29, 20 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:Like the rest of the articles ] (]) 09:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:<small>'''Relisting comment''': contentious discussion. extending for additional constructive inputs. ] (]) 13:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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* '''Question''' Per ], is it okay to state that some allegations are "unconfirmed" or "unverified"? ] (]) 18:08, 20 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:If sources say they are unconfirmed or unverified then yes. If we are just supposing that then no. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 19:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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*:We should also be careful not to restate a source's editorializing that something is unconfirmed or unverified. ] | ] 19:57, 20 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*:It depends. A lot of allegations may be simply undue on the page. We should only include most notable allegations covered in multiple mainstream RS. ] (]) 18:30, 22 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' Oh additionally another issue with the current title is that it could be read as "allegations of war crimes committed against the state of Israel" so it should bare minimum read "Allegations of war crimes committed by Israel" ] (]) 20:07, 23 October 2023 (UTC) |
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=== Alternative proposal === |
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{{cot|Closed|As is said below, this is best served as a later proposal pending results of the RM as proposed.--] (]) ] 20:20, 20 October 2023 (UTC)}} |
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] → {{no redirect|War crimes in the Arab-Israeli conflict}} – Per ], "Descriptive titles should be worded neutrally, so as not to suggest a viewpoint for or against a topic, or to confine the content of the article to views on a particular side of an issue... Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing." - The proposed scope change would adhere better to ]. ] (]) 11:27, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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* <s>'''Support''' - Given the number of war crimes perpetrated and alleged on both sides, this seems to be a more neutral option for a title. ] (]) 12:35, 19 October 2023 (UTC)</s>{{small|{{a note}} ] and ] restriction applies. ] (]) 14:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC)}} |
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:'''Support''' - Indeed it would seem to be preferable to include context that is relevant to both parties. I think your title: ], suggestion will reflect this in a better manner. I think you're right, neutral titles would encourage different viewpoints and better more responsible writing. ] (]) 12:56, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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: '''Strongly oppose''': We have ] but also ], so I do not see any reason against having this article. In addition, the discussion above to move this page has already reached consensus. I think an article dedicated to the war crimes of Israel makes much more sense than a combined one. One that attempts to draw equal weight between both sides runs a strong risk of inadvertently violating ] by comparing the crimes of militant groups and individuals with those of a nuclear-armed superpower. ] (]) 13:42, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' - a. wait till the current move request is closed before opening a new one. B. This is its own topic. C. See a. again. Should be speedy closed as an abuse of process. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 13:45, 19 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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*:I support closing this. It distracts from the current discussion, and should be handled as a separate discussion after close of the first. ] | ] 18:14, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*::Agree. It's nothing more than a distraction from the original topic. ] (]) 18:19, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' and agree with CarmenEsparzaAmoux, combining and equaling two completely different entities makes no sense, and seems like an effort to downsize the Israeli crimes. - ] (]) 15:08, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Strongly oppose''': I also completely agree with CarmenEsparzaAmoux's views. Israel should have its own page dedicated to war crimes, just like any other nation involved in modern wars. Also, this is another discussion. The original proposition was for having the page retitled "Israeli war crimes" and its 7 days have already passed and a consensus was reached. ] (]) 17:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Strongly oppose''' That would require an enormous expansion of the article, blowing up length as it would need to focus on numerous other nations. It would be better if each had their own "X war crimes" articles. Such a title would also give the appearance that Misplaced Pages is going way out of its way to give Israel biased treatment on this subject. |
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:] | ] 18:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:'''Oppose:''' Aside from the fact that the proposed title would have an INSANELY large scope (like really?! multiple countries, dozens of conflicts, over 70 years?), that's not what this article is , which is a country-based article about military misconduct, just like ], ], ], ] and ], as mentioned in the nom's original statement. It's likewise not about a single, discrete war. ] (]) 18:21, 19 October 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support:''' the title ] for lack of POV or distinctive narrative. ] (]) 04:22, 20 October 2023 (UTC) |
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{{cob}} |
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<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] --> |
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</div><div style="clear:both;"></div> |
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== Significant misrepresentation of citation in first paragraph of 2023 war. == |
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"Numerous allegations of war crimes were levied against Israel for its actions against civilians during its 2023 war with Hamas. The UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory stated there was "already clear evidence" of war crimes and would share evidence with judicial authorities, including the International Criminal Court's authorities currently investigating war crimes committed in the Occupied Territories." |
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This paragraph clearly indicates that the UN commission had clear evidence of Israeli war crimes. Yet their statement does not state they had evidence of war crimes perpetrated by Israel. ] (]) 00:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:<p> <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 03:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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== Manipulative misrepresentation and hiding of absolute facts == |
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The initial paragraph initially said: |
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Over the course of several decades, the ], the military branch of the state of Israel, has been subject to various allegations of ]. The government of Israel has denied any wrongdoing, and neither Israel nor the IDF have never been formally charged with committing war crimes.<ref>{{cite web |title=Israel, citing ‘bias,’ won’t cooperate with UN rights team |url=https://apnews.com/article/europe-middle-east-israel-geneva-race-and-ethnicity-d71a6a9692959a73806c8356cd7bf2dd |website=Associated Press |access-date=9 October 2023}}</ref> |
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This paragraph has been edited to remove the *factual* sentence that is key - IDF has never been formally charged. The entire paragraph was written in a non-neutral way, to make it seem as if IDF *has* commited war-crimes, while again, it has never been formally charged. |
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It is manipulative and attempting to present the situation as different than it is, as if it is factual that the IDF has committed war crimes, while it was never formally charged nor have these allegations been proven. |
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In fact, the entire page does not including any mention of this fact - that IDF has never been charged or proven to have committed war crimes. |
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Misplaced Pages, please be neutral and display facts. Let people make their own opinions. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 03:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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:They haven't been charged because Israel is not a signatory to the icc, does not recognise the icc and therefore any charge against them is futile. What they are doing does not pass any pub test. ] (]) 09:18, 2 November 2023 (UTC) |
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{{reftalk}} |
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:What do you think formally charged means for war crimes? What state is "formally charged" with war crimes? Israel has however been accused of war crimes by UN fact finding commissions, by the International Court of Justice, by human rights organizations, by academic sources. But Israel is not a member of the ICC, so until Palestine joined there was no formally charging Israel with anything. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 03:33, 29 October 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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:This is a false claim. Here's an example from the article showing why: |
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:<code>In November 2010, two Givati Brigade Staff Sergeants were convicted by the Southern Command Military Court of using a Palestinian boy as a human shield. The soldiers had been accused of forcing nine-year-old Majed R. at gunpoint to open bags suspected of containing bombs in the Tel al-Hawa neighborhood.</code> |
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:The statement that the government of Israel has denied ''any'' wrongdoing is not true, and very much misleading. Convicting, in this case, two of their own soldiers, is an affirmation of wrongdoing. Moreover, if you're talking about charges from the ICC, they charge individuals, not nation states or entire militaries. |
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:Lastly, that claim isn't supported by the source provided. Most of what it discusses are Israel's refusals to cooperate with international investigations into its wartime conduct and treatment of Palestinians. The line ignored what the source actually said and wrote something else. ] | ] 18:07, 29 October 2023 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 November 2023 == |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Israeli_war_crimes|answered=yes}} |
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Please add the following two sections to the article. Thanks in advance. |
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<nowiki>==2006 Lebanon War==</nowiki> |
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{{main|Allegations of war crimes in the 2006 Lebanon War}} |
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In a 249-page report regarding the ], the ] asked the secretary-general of the ] to establish an international commission of inquiry to investigate reports of violations of the ] by Israel, including possible war crimes.<ref>{{cite web |title=Israel/Lebanon: Israeli Indiscriminate Attacks Killed Most Civilians |url=https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/09/05/israel/lebanon-israeli-indiscriminate-attacks-killed-most-civilians |website=hrw.org}}</ref> In a report, ] also said that during the month-long conflict in Lebanon, Israel deliberately targeted civilian infrastructure and committed war crimes.<ref>{{cite news |title=Amnesty report accuses Israel of war crimes |url=https://theguardian.com/world/2006/aug/23/israelandthepalestinians.syria |work=The Guardian |date=23 August 2006}}</ref> |
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<nowiki>==2021 Israel–Palestine crisis==</nowiki> |
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In 2021, ] which documented 'four deadly attacks by Israel launched on residential homes without prior warning', asked the International Criminal Court to immediately investigate these attacks that may amount to war crimes or ].<ref>{{cite web |title=Israel/ OPT: Pattern of Israeli attacks on residential homes in Gaza must be investigated as war crimes |url=https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/05/israelopt-pattern-of-israeli-attacks-on-residential-homes-in-gaza-must-be-investigated-as-war-crimes/ |website=amnesty.org}}</ref> |
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] investigated three Israeli strikes during ] that killed 62 Palestinian civilians where there were no clear military targets in the vicinity, concluding that Israel violated the laws of war and its actions apparently amounted to war crimes.<ref>{{cite web |title=Gaza: Apparent War Crimes During May Fighting |url=https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/07/27/gaza-apparent-war-crimes-during-may-fighting |website=hrw.org}}</ref> |
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<nowiki>==Israeli settlements==</nowiki> |
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{{see also|Israeli settlements and international law#Rome Statute}} |
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According to ], the ] on the situation of ] in the ] occupied ], "the ] violate the absolute prohibition against the transfer by an occupying power of parts of its civilian population into an occupied territory". He therefore asked international community to designate the Israeli settlements creation as a war crime under the 1998 ] of the ].<ref>{{cite web |title=Israeli Settlements Should be Classified as War Crimes, Says Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in OPT |url=https://www.un.org/unispal/document/israeli-settlements-should-be-classified-as-war-crimes-says-special-rapporteur-on-the-situation-of-human-rights-in-opt-press-release/ |website=un.org}}</ref> |
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Gaza Death and Injury Statistics are 7 months out of date. Indeed, I don't see any injury statistics whatsoever. The War Crimes list urgently needs updating ] (]) 05:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC) |
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<nowiki>==International Criminal Court investigation==</nowiki> |
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{{see also|International Criminal Court investigation in Palestine}} |
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:This is an issue across multiple related articles. The main source of information (Gaza Health Ministry) on counting the dead largely lost its means of counting due to the destruction of hospitals and morgues. Other sources have estimated death tolls from 100,000 to 300,000 or even higher. |
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In 2021, ], the ], launched an ] in the Palestinian territories since 13 June 2014.<ref>{{cite news |title=ICC launches war crimes probe into Israeli practices |url=https://apnews.com/article/israel-west-bank-palestinian-territories-courts-crime-19117d4265f5d564256ea7fe75854aa6 |work=Associated Press |date=March 4, 2021}}</ref> ] (]) 20:07, 1 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:Can you elaborate on any specific war crimes/sections that need updating or inclusion? Many of the past conflicts need revision/inclusion in better detail, IMO. I was trying to do this for a bit and made it to around 2006. 2008-2009 is going to be a lot of work. ] | ] 07:28, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
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{{reftalk}} |
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:For reference, I used {{tag|nowiki|o}} tags to remove the second level headings as they were disrupting the talk page structure; remember to remove them when implementing the edit. |
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:As for the edit itself, I don't see any obvious sourcing issues, although given the current structure of the article, it may be better for consistency to put the statements in the second section into the existing sections wherever possible, and retitle whatever that remains as "Other". ] (]) 20:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{partly done|Partly done:}}<!-- Template:EEp --> {{ping|Liu1126}} Please reformat the section for Palestine so it can be integrated into the current structure of the article. ] (])<sup><span style="color:Green"><small>Ping me!</small></span></sup> 00:24, 2 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::I've added the section on the 2006 war. ] (])<sup><span style="color:Green"><small>Ping me!</small></span></sup> 00:24, 2 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::There's already a section for the 2021 events, but anything novel and sourced should be added. The Goldstone report pertained to the 2008-2009 conflict; not sure why it would be in a see also for the 2021 events. ] | ] 00:33, 2 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|ARandomName123}} I have restructured the section on Palestine into three separate sections so it can be integrated into the article. | ] (]) 04:10, 2 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:EEp --> {{ping|ARandomName123|Pirate of the High Seas}} I've added the remaining material to the article. The Human Rights Watch information had already been included in the 2021 Israel-Palestine crisis section, so I only addd the Amnesty International paragraph. The two other sections seemed rather short, so I put them as third level headers under a second level header called "Other incidents". |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 December 2024 == |
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:Also, don't know if there may be confusion over this, but for the record, I did not originate this edit request. It was requested by the IP 39.34.146.93, and I made a comment below it because I didn't have time to implement it at that moment. ] (]) 08:59, 2 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::Thanks for implementing it! Sorry about the confusion, I missed that it was the IP who requested it. ] (])<sup><span style="color:Green"><small>Ping me!</small></span></sup> 12:24, 2 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:::No problem, and thanks for adding the 2006 Lebanon War section. Have a good day! ] (]) 12:37, 2 November 2023 (UTC) |
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{{edit extended-protected|Israeli war crimes|answered=yes}} |
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== Small proofread == |
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The word intentionally is misspelled at the end of the third paragraph ] (]) 04:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC) |
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: {{done}}<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 04:43, 3 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Israel Katz's citation misattribution == |
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In the second paragraph of the section on Jabalia air strikes, the sentence "The Gaza Interior Ministry stated the camp had been "completely destroyed," and the following day reported 195 people and 777 injured, with 120 more missing beneath the rubble." is missing a "dead" after "195 people". I can't edit the article, so I'm giving a heads up here. ] (]) 15:56, 3 November 2023 (UTC) |
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The pronoun "They" in the citation: "Indeed, Madam Congresswoman. We have to draw a line... They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world." , refers to Hamas, not to the Gaza population. It is obvious in the source, not in the article. ] (]) 05:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC) Era |
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:Fixed, ty. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 17:18, 3 November 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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== Israeli war crimes == |
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== Report by Hamas not mentioned as such, under "Forcible transfer" == |
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I am ashamed as a human being reading this article. I cant even imagine how they israelis would feel. So embarrassing, so devastating ] (]) 17:24, 20 January 2025 (UTC) |
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The sentence "Israeli airstrikes reportedly bombed and killed civilians complying with the evacuation order" need to be qualified that these reports come *only* from the Hamas (to which the Gaza health ministry belongs). Please correct this. |
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] (]) 13:46, 6 November 2023 (UTC) |
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This page is subject to the extended confirmed restriction related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Gaza Death and Injury Statistics are 7 months out of date. Indeed, I don't see any injury statistics whatsoever. The War Crimes list urgently needs updating APaul2021 (talk) 05:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
The pronoun "They" in the citation: "Indeed, Madam Congresswoman. We have to draw a line... They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world." , refers to Hamas, not to the Gaza population. It is obvious in the source, not in the article. 85.201.188.118 (talk) 05:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC) Era
I am ashamed as a human being reading this article. I cant even imagine how they israelis would feel. So embarrassing, so devastating Nickodath (talk) 17:24, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion not met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
Done