| Revision as of 07:49, 14 February 2024 editMediaWiki message delivery (talk | contribs)Bots3,139,932 edits →Crimes against humanity category removal: new sectionTag: MassMessage delivery← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 13:55, 10 July 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,013,528 editsm Removed deprecated parameters in {{Talk header}} that are now handled automatically (Task 30)Tag: paws [2.2] | ||
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| ⚫ | == Crimes against humanity category removal == | ||
| == Problem with the introductory summary == | |||
| ⚫ | ] is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. ] (]) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC) | ||
| The introduction states "The Great Purge... was Soviet General Secretary Joseph Stalin's campaign to solidify his power over the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and the state; the purges were also designed to remove the remaining influence of Leon Trotsky as well as other prominent political rivals within the party." This is contradicted by the more recent work of James Harris, Stephen Wheatcroft, and others cited later in the article that the purges were not motivated by Stalin's hunger for power but a fear of counterrevolution fueled by misleading intelligence reports, the rise of anticommunist right-wing dictatorships along Soviet borders led by the aggressive, expansionist Nazi regime, intensified fears of invasion, particularly after the emergence of the Anti-Comintern Pact and the beginning of the Spanish Civil War. ] (]) 15:55, 27 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
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| == ] issues with "Stalin's role" section == | |||
| :The works of Arch Getty also provide another outlook, focusing on the nature of how the purges spread out and ended up infecting the intelligentsia at large which caused it to accelerate in scope rather than some grand orchestrated terror campaign to secure Stalin's position ] (]) 10:57, 1 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
| The section, contra ], presents a biased account containing largely only the views of a specific camp of historians. While those historians certainly exist and do have those views, the section incorrectly presents their views as consensus or as fact in Wikivoice. The section should be revised to (1) point out that there is a lively and ongoing scholarly debate as to the extent and character of Stalin's involvement and (2) summarize the views of all sides in this debate. Notable voices excluded from this discussion include the views of ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and undoubtedly others. ] (]) 03:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Why does the link for the "Kremlin Case" redirect to the Great Purge article? == | |||
| :Yeah, the article in general seems to need a serious overhaul with more recent and quality sourcing, like the new Harris book that seems to have been well received. (] · ]) ''']''' 03:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| The Kremlin Case or what is more commonly known as the ] was a distinct event in 1935 that occurred before the Great Purge. No special attention is paid to the specific affair within the article, so if there's a good reason for it let me know. ] (]) 06:48, 17 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *If it was a lead-up event, then it would be worth mentioning, and properly sourced of course, even if it isn't a part of the Great Purge itself. More than likely, the reason it isn't included is simply because no one has taken the time to research, source and write it. Alternatively, if it truly is completely unrelated, you can always start an article using ] and ask for the sourced article (even if incomplete) to be published over the redirect. ] - ] 06:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Western émigré victims in great purge article provides uncited source. == | |||
| comment that ‘americans who went to the embassy of the united states were rounded up and shot by ‘lurking nkvd agents’ links to a third hand report piece which provides no citations. given a lack of citations this section should be shortened to discuss more general issues ] (]) 04:07, 7 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :The statement is also almost copied word for word from the : | |||
| :Article: | |||
| :<blockquote>At the height of the Terror, the American emigrants had besieged their embassy, begging for passports so they could leave Russia.</blockquote> | |||
| :Misplaced Pages: | |||
| :<blockquote>At the height of the Terror, American immigrants besieged the US embassy, begging for passports so they could leave the Soviet Union.</blockquote> | |||
| :Article: | |||
| :<blockquote>They were turned away only to be arrested on the pavement outside by lurking NKVD agents.</blockquote> | |||
| :Misplaced Pages: | |||
| :<blockquote>They were turned away by embassy officials, only to be arrested on the pavement outside by lurking NKVD agents.</blockquote> | |||
| :The cited article is also an advertisement / summary of a book (''The Foresaken'') that Tim Tzouliadis wrote (the same Tim Tzouliadis also happens to be the author of the cited article). As for this author's credentials, : "Tim Tzouliadis is a writer and filmmaker. Born in 1968, he read Politics, Philosophy and Economics at Oxford University, and went on to pursue a career in television current affairs and documentary-making for Channel 4, BBC2, NBC Television and National Geographic Television." If I'm reading that correctly, he doesn't have an academic background in history or Eastern European studies that would make him an obvious expert on the topic at hand. Though, the synopsis on Amazon on the book also claims that, the author looked into potentially reliable sources: "Through official records, memoirs, newspaper reports and interviews searches the most closely guarded archive in modern history to reconstruct their story - one of honesty, vitality and idealism brought up against the brutal machinery of repression." However, from the synopsis, it's not clear how he got access to "the most closely guarded archive in modern history", and it's also not clear how much of his book is based on actual reliable sources and how much on "memoirs and interviews". I don't have a copy to fact-check. There are that say that notes and bibliography take up half the book and that he relies "mostly on secondary literature", while others say that it's mostly based on the memoirs of two Americans, "thin documentary record", that the author "failed to capture the overall historical significance beyond the obvious suffering of select individuals", and that "the book is pretty thin in terms of historical interpretation and significance". | |||
| :Either way, it's definitely not a classical academic source. ] (]) 17:36, 14 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Not in source == | == Not in source == | ||
| I was reading through the article and noticed the following claim "The officials were mandated to arrest and execute a specific number of so-called "counter-revolutionaries", compiled by administration using various statistics but also telephone books with names sounding non-Russian" , I looked through the source that the claim comes from, ] Black Book of Communism, without a page number and could find no mention of this method of choice with the closest being the NKVD looking through Ukrainian schoolbooks to identify possible members of the OUN during the Second World War (229). If a source could be found for this claim it would prove deliberate ethnic cleansing through the campaign however I was unable to find it in this source. ] (]) 07:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I reverted recent changes by @] because no source saying that - ] . ] (]) 18:45, 7 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Official but controversial? == | |||
| ⚫ | == Crimes against humanity category removal == | ||
| The article states that "On 30 October 2017, President Vladimir Putin opened the Wall of Sorrow, an official but controversial recognition of the crimes of the Soviet regime." Why was this monument considered "controversial" by the editor? The source does not support this opinion. ] (]) 23:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | ] is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. ] (]) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC) | ||
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Latest revision as of 13:55, 10 July 2024
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Crimes against humanity category removal
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
WP:NPOV issues with "Stalin's role" section
The section, contra WP:DUE, presents a biased account containing largely only the views of a specific camp of historians. While those historians certainly exist and do have those views, the section incorrectly presents their views as consensus or as fact in Wikivoice. The section should be revised to (1) point out that there is a lively and ongoing scholarly debate as to the extent and character of Stalin's involvement and (2) summarize the views of all sides in this debate. Notable voices excluded from this discussion include the views of J. Arch Getty, Sheila Fitzpatrick, R. W. Davies, Stephen G. Wheatcroft, Jerry F. Hough, Lynne Viola, Moshe Lewin, Bob Allen, and undoubtedly others. Brusquedandelion (talk) 03:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, the article in general seems to need a serious overhaul with more recent and quality sourcing, like the new Harris book that seems to have been well received. (t · c) buidhe 03:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Not in source
I was reading through the article and noticed the following claim "The officials were mandated to arrest and execute a specific number of so-called "counter-revolutionaries", compiled by administration using various statistics but also telephone books with names sounding non-Russian" , I looked through the source that the claim comes from, Stéphane Courtois Black Book of Communism, without a page number and could find no mention of this method of choice with the closest being the NKVD looking through Ukrainian schoolbooks to identify possible members of the OUN during the Second World War (229). If a source could be found for this claim it would prove deliberate ethnic cleansing through the campaign however I was unable to find it in this source. Drgerke (talk) 07:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Official but controversial?
The article states that "On 30 October 2017, President Vladimir Putin opened the Wall of Sorrow, an official but controversial recognition of the crimes of the Soviet regime." Why was this monument considered "controversial" by the editor? The source does not support this opinion. 177.26.92.203 (talk) 23:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
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