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== Why is modern Polish Holocaust denial not mentioned? ==


==Soft Holocaust Denial should be added?==
It has become fashionable in Poland to paint the Polish nation as having been largely uninvolved or unwilling participants in the Holocaust, which is a form of soft Holocaust denial or . Why is this not mentioned in the text? It has gone so far as the ]-controlled senate passing a law making pointing out Polish participation in the Holocaust punishable by up to three years in prison (, ). ] (]) 11:45, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
https://www.thetower.org/article/the-rise-of-soft-holocaust-denial/
The matter with JK Rowling because the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/Transgender_people_in_Nazi_Germany
points here, but this article doesn't mention Rromani, LGBT, who were part of the Holocaust, even though they were not the most public.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/31/deborah-lipstadt-historian-donald-trump-advisers-soft-holocaust-denial
There are plenty of articles to support it. There are examples that can be pulled too. Addressing the arguments that it's more prevalent v. hard denial should also be addressed and added.
⚫ --] (]) 14:18, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


:@] Maybe first try creating an article about this (], I guess)? Is this term used in academia? <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]&#124;]</sub> 11:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:What text do you suggest adding to what section cited to what sources? ] (]) 12:25, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
::The article here is too long to add the soft denial, I think to add the soft part, though I think an insertion of "soft denial" as a header would still be wise, rather than an addendum. There seems to be enough articles to support making it, but I have to admit I don't particularly want to do it alone. ] (]) 14:27, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::Let me get back to you on that, I need to dive into the relevant research. ] (]) 09:21, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
:::I have not tried looking at sources at all, but it may not be that easy to find good ones referring to this "thing" as ''Holocaust denial''. Which is a must per ]. ] (]) 09:48, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
== "]" listed at ] ==
]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 8#The Holohoax}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)


== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 December 2024 ==
== Why no evidence in the article for the denial? ==


{{edit extended-protected|Holocaust denial|answered=no}}
There is literally a complete, separate Misplaced Pages article on the evidence for the standard Holocaust theory. ("Evidence and documentation for the Holocaust")
My suggestion is to add an additional section for the middle east category to include Israel. In 2015, Benjamin Net. voiced his opinion that Palestinian leaders persuaded the Nazis to commence the holocaust. This denial denigrates the Nazi decision to carry out the mass killing and is a way to condemn Palestinians today.


From BBC
This seems to be the only article for Holocaust Denial. Why is there no evidence for the Holocaust Denial / Revisionism here? There are multiple books on the subject, and for example the Zundel trials were places where evidence was given. (The trial evidence is also in books)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34594563


From AP news
So why is there no evidence in this article? For example, hoaxes relating to Holocaust diaries, death tolls etc are pure facts, and can be found even on MSM, but somehow not here. ] (]) 03:02, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
https://apnews.com/general-news-61ead35a427a408e9d93d43f41cfa064 ] (]) 18:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)


:The sources are good, though it can be argued to be not exactly "denial". A sentence like "Historians said that Israeli PM BN served the interests of HD-ers when he claimed in 2015 that..." is not unreasonable IMO. I note that this thing is well covered in ]. ] (]) 18:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
::Because we have a higher standard of what constitutes "evidence".<span style="color:Purple">''' - '''</span>]<span style="color:Purple">'''. '''</span><sub>]</sub> 04:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
::As in mentioned in the intro as part of holocaust denialism, "Nazi Germany's "Final Solution" was aimed only at deporting Jews from the territory of the Third Reich and did not include their extermination.", Which even without an explicit comment from a historian or commentator from the articles stating that is in explicit service fellow HD-ers, it matches the definition as provided in the intro. Thank you for taking the time to review this proposal. ] (]) 20:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Your statement seems to be objectively not true.
:::Point, per the WP-article's definition, this does seem like a version of HD. I've ]d in a couple of places, we'll see if other editors can be arsed to have an opinion. For the interested, the coverage in the BN-article is at ]. ] (]) 05:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:::] (]) 22:48, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
:::Also, there is , '']'', 2015, , , etc. ] (]) 05:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:The same reason we don't list evidence that the earth is flat? ] ] 04:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
::::I would like to suggest adding the following under the middle east section.
::You do realize it is much, much more persuasive to claim the the Flat Earthers are "wrong", if you actually take all of their arguments, and show why they are wrong?
::::=== Israel ===
::Currently, Misplaced Pages clearly avoids every single thing about Holocaust Denial like a hot potato. Not a single mention of e.g. the long, long list of different hoaxes that made it even to MSM through all the years.
::::Israel's Prim Minister, Mr Netanyahu, at a speech to the World Zionist Congress in 2015, insisted Adolf Hitler did not want to exterminate jews but had only wanted to expel them from Europe due too the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini request. This has been seen as a means to reduce Hitler's responsibility for the Holocaust by Angela Merkel and chief Israel Holocaust Historian, Yad Vashem. ] (]) 14:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
::If the theory is true, it will be extremely easy to show that it is true. For example, everyone who doubts the gravity as a permanent physical phenomenom, can be pretty quickly shown to be wrong.
::] (]) 22:43, 14 February 2024 (UTC) :::::Could you include the exact quotes from the sources? (Like what the article said exactly in regards to this)? ] (]) 07:30, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
::Here is literally a list of evidence against the Evolution theory
::https://en.wikipedia.org/Objections_to_evolution
⚫ ::] (]) 22:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)


== Section on Germany ==
:As you noticed, there already is an article that explains the evidence for the Holocaust. ] (]) 06:08, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
::But why on earth there is not a similar article on the evidence against the standard Holocaust theories?
::The intellectual credibility of Misplaced Pages is not very high, if every single piece of evidence against the Holocaust is just censored to oblivion.
::Here is an article against the Evolution theory:
::https://en.wikipedia.org/Objections_to_evolution
⚫ ::] (]) 22:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
:::In order to create an article you need to show there is a sufficient body of sources to establish weight. There is a large body of literature addressing creationist objections to evolution. But there is probably little or none addressing the arguments of Holocaust deniers. Or can you name any articles or books written about it? ] (]) 23:09, 14 February 2024 (UTC)


In the German section, the terminology of "Volksverhetzung" is explained and translated twice in mostly the same way. I think it should be possible to remove one of those (preferrably the second one) to make for more fluent reading. --] (]) 13:11, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
::That other article is "objections to evolution", ''not'' "evidence against evolution", because the former exists, but the latter does not. Likewise, there is no real "evidence against the standard Holocaust theories". We deal in facts here, and ] is not looked upon kindly.<span style="color:Purple">''' - '''</span>]<span style="color:Purple">'''. '''</span><sub>]</sub> 23:07, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
⚫ :Done, thanks. ] (]) 14:48, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I read the Misplaced Pages guidelines on this, and they *specifically* note that these viewpoints can be expressed, and Holocaust Denial was a *specific* example of a "fringe theory", that can and will be written about, despite it being completely contrarian to standard theories of history.
:::"Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views. For example, the article on the Earth does not directly mention modern support for the flat Earth concept"
:::https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight
:::"The notability of a fringe theory must be judged by statements from verifiable and reliable sources, not the proclamations of its adherents. Additionally, the topic must satisfy general notability guidelines: the topic must receive significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"
:::"Examples
:::**Sufficiently notable for dedicated articles:
:::***Holocaust denial"
:::https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories#Examples
:::Thus I claim that Misplaced Pages should 100% have an article about the Holocaust Denial "proof", and that it is 100% in line with the specific Misplaced Pages Guidelines on articles about Fringe Theories
:::Clearly, the Holocaust Denial is a matter of sufficient notability & importance to have it's own article, otherwise this page would not exist. And clearly, a page like that should have in it the "proof" for the fringe theory in question. Without this, Misplaced Pages is not much more than cherrypicked propaganda.
:::] (]) 23:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

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The Soviet authorities estimated the death toll not via historical methodology, but by working out how many people could have been cremated during the entire existence of the camp, taking 20% off to account for crematoria down-time, and using that number: around 4 million. They did not, for example, examine how many people were sent to the camp versus how many did not return, but used the 4 million variant to purposely overstate non-Jewish deaths, and diminish the fact that 90% of those that disappeared following their deportation to Auschwitz were Jewish. Once the Iron Curtain fell, communist pressure to keep the original Soviet estimate ceased and the more accurate estimate replaced it.

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Soft Holocaust Denial should be added?

https://www.thetower.org/article/the-rise-of-soft-holocaust-denial/ The matter with JK Rowling because the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/Transgender_people_in_Nazi_Germany points here, but this article doesn't mention Rromani, LGBT, who were part of the Holocaust, even though they were not the most public. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/31/deborah-lipstadt-historian-donald-trump-advisers-soft-holocaust-denial There are plenty of articles to support it. There are examples that can be pulled too. Addressing the arguments that it's more prevalent v. hard denial should also be addressed and added. --KimYunmi (talk) 14:18, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@KimYunmi Maybe first try creating an article about this (soft Holocaust denial, I guess)? Is this term used in academia? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
The article here is too long to add the soft denial, I think to add the soft part, though I think an insertion of "soft denial" as a header would still be wise, rather than an addendum. There seems to be enough articles to support making it, but I have to admit I don't particularly want to do it alone. KimYunmi (talk) 14:27, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

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My suggestion is to add an additional section for the middle east category to include Israel. In 2015, Benjamin Net. voiced his opinion that Palestinian leaders persuaded the Nazis to commence the holocaust. This denial denigrates the Nazi decision to carry out the mass killing and is a way to condemn Palestinians today.

From BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34594563

From AP news https://apnews.com/general-news-61ead35a427a408e9d93d43f41cfa064 71.229.52.174 (talk) 18:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

The sources are good, though it can be argued to be not exactly "denial". A sentence like "Historians said that Israeli PM BN served the interests of HD-ers when he claimed in 2015 that..." is not unreasonable IMO. I note that this thing is well covered in Benjamin Netanyahu. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
As in mentioned in the intro as part of holocaust denialism, "Nazi Germany's "Final Solution" was aimed only at deporting Jews from the territory of the Third Reich and did not include their extermination.", Which even without an explicit comment from a historian or commentator from the articles stating that is in explicit service fellow HD-ers, it matches the definition as provided in the intro. Thank you for taking the time to review this proposal. 71.229.52.174 (talk) 20:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Point, per the WP-article's definition, this does seem like a version of HD. I've WP:APPNOTEd in a couple of places, we'll see if other editors can be arsed to have an opinion. For the interested, the coverage in the BN-article is at Benjamin_Netanyahu#Fourth_term. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Also, there is Under-fire Netanyahu criticised over 'a form of Holocaust denial', Irish Independent, 2015, , , etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I would like to suggest adding the following under the middle east section.
=== Israel ===
Israel's Prim Minister, Mr Netanyahu, at a speech to the World Zionist Congress in 2015, insisted Adolf Hitler did not want to exterminate jews but had only wanted to expel them from Europe due too the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini request. This has been seen as a means to reduce Hitler's responsibility for the Holocaust by Angela Merkel and chief Israel Holocaust Historian, Yad Vashem. 71.229.52.174 (talk) 14:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Could you include the exact quotes from the sources? (Like what the article said exactly in regards to this)? Wikieditor662 (talk) 07:30, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Section on Germany

In the German section, the terminology of "Volksverhetzung" is explained and translated twice in mostly the same way. I think it should be possible to remove one of those (preferrably the second one) to make for more fluent reading. --131Platypi (talk) 13:11, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Done, thanks. JimRenge (talk) 14:48, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
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