Revision as of 20:58, 29 February 2024 view sourceHey man im josh (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators347,314 editsm Hey man im josh moved page Talk:Attempted genocide by Israel in their 2023 attack on Gaza to Talk:Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza over redirect: Revert undiscussed move (WP:RMUM): This is (obviously) too controversial of a page move to be done without a RM discussion first. ← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 16:29, 9 January 2025 view source Selfstudier (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers41,150 edits →Another important publication: ReplyTag: Reply |
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|author = Aaron Bandler |
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|date = 25 July 2024 |
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{{WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography|importance=Mid}} |
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|url = https://jewishjournal.com/news/united-states/373440/wikipedia-editors-title-article-gaza-genocide/ |
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{{WikiProject Death|importance=low}} |
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|title = Misplaced Pages Editors Title Article "Gaza Genocide" |
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{{WikiProject Discrimination|importance=Mid}} |
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|archiveurl = https://web.archive.org/web/20240731015947/https://jewishjournal.com/news/united-states/373440/wikipedia-editors-title-article-gaza-genocide/ |
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{{WikiProject Israel|importance=Mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration|importance=}} |
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|author2 = Daniel Edelson |
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|date2 = 5 August 2024 |
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{{Annual readership}} |
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|url2 = https://www.ynetnews.com/article/byp188cyr |
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|title2 = Amid Gaza war, Misplaced Pages editors conclude Israel guilty of genocide |
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|accessdate2 = 6 August 2024 |
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|author3 = Jo Elizabeth |
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== List of Supporting Countries == |
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|date3 = 5 August 2024 |
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Please add a list of countries and organisations supporting South Africa's case at ICJ. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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|url3 = https://allisrael.com/wikipedia-editors-label-israel-guilty-of-genocide |
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|title3 = Misplaced Pages editors label Israel guilty of genocide |
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|accessdate3 = 6 August 2024 |
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|author4 = Batya Jerenberg |
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|date4 = 5 August 2024 |
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|url4 = https://tjvnews.com/2024/08/case-closed-wikipedia-editors-say-israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza/ |
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|title4 = Case closed? Misplaced Pages editors say Israel committing genocide in Gaza |
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|org4 = ] |
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|accessdate4 = 6 August 2024 |
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|author5 = Shiryn Ghermezian |
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== January 2024 == |
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|date5 = 6 August 2024 |
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|url5 = https://www.algemeiner.com/2024/08/06/wikipedia-editors-vote-accuse-israel-genocide-ongoing-hamas-war-gaza/ |
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|title5 = Misplaced Pages Editors Vote to Accuse Israel of Genocide During Ongoing Hamas War in Gaza |
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|org5 = ] |
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|accessdate5 = 6 August 2024 |
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|author6 = Refaella Goichman |
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I propose that we split this article into like 10 articles more. Clearly we haven't created enough content forks out of this war, how about we divide it by months or cities or something? I'm sure it will serve for, well, something probably. |
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|date6 = 8 August 2024 |
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|url6 = https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-08/ty-article/.premium/english-wikipedia-editors-concluded-israel-is-committing-genocide-in-gaza/00000191-321a-d4dc-a397-bf1e3fba0000 |
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|title6 = English Misplaced Pages Editors Concluded: Israel Is Committing Genocide in Gaza |
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|org6 = ] |
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|accessdate6 = 9 August 2024 |
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|author7 = Catherine Perez-Shakdam, Elisa.T. |
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This article is at least much, much more serious and realistic than ]. But we have ] already. ] (]) 16:28, 4 January 2024 (UTC) |
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|date7 = 9 August 2024 |
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|url7 = https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1934078/israel-wikipedia-gaza-genocide |
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|title7 = Israel is facing new information war after key Misplaced Pages change to Gaza entry |
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|org7 = ] |
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|accessdate7 = 12 August 2024 |
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|author8 = The New Arab Staff |
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:@]: Redirecting to ] has by ] and was reverted by ] with the comments that these two articles are "''... not the same thing and this should not be merged without a discussion''". Also, while ] should be ], advice also exists that ] should not date quickly. Now it is January 2024, I also have to wonder at the wisdom of including the year in the article title. The current conflict in Gaza does not look like being over any time soon, so a change in title is probably warranted. - ] (]) 00:06, 5 January 2024 (UTC) |
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|date8 = 9 August 2024 |
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:I think we should merge this and the (currently somewhat shambolic) ] into a neutral ] (or whatever the main article ends up getting moved to). Keeping two separate articles is a recipe for POV forking based on original research and synthesis, rather than a collaborative effort to summarize, with due weighting, what reliable sources say - which is what we're supposed to be doing here. ] (]) 10:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC) |
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|url8 = https://www.newarab.com/news/english-wikipedia-editors-say-israel-committing-genocide-gaza |
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::I agree. To me the current situation just seems like a ] situation, editors creating certain articles and other editors creating their equivalent of the other side as a reaction. Though if it was up to me I'd completely delete the genocide by Hamas one and merge this one into the general one for a Palestinian genocide, which is an article in a much better shape and standing. ] (]) 11:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC) |
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|title8 = English Misplaced Pages editors say Israel is committing genocide in Gaza |
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::I'm not sure if there is much in common between the two articles to merit a merger? ''']''' <sub>]</sub> 06:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC) |
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|org8 = ] |
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:::There is, quite obviously in my view, much in common between the two. They're the same article but about the opposite side in the same war. And both are alleged genocides. ] (]) 15:14, 10 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Can you explain what is in common? In other words, wouldn't that article just consist of two sections: "allegations against Israel", and "allegations against Hamas". ''']''' <sub>]</sub> 20:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::At least that would provide some ]. - ] (]) 20:55, 10 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::]. <span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>] 23:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC) |
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|accessdate8 = 12 August 2024 |
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:::::::I also cannot see what is in common, nor what balance. Hamas is certainly accused of having genocidal ''intent'' towards Israel, but I have heard of no one who thinks that October 7 - however indiscriminate and bloody it was - was a realistic attempt to eliminate Israel or the Israeli people. ] (]) 10:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::International law references "genocidal acts" in discussions of genocide. Essentially, genocidal intent + violent action to pursue that intent = genocidal act. Hamas has absolutely been accused of genocidal acts re 7 October. It's why the genocide conventions say "in whole or in part". But that's hardly germane to this discussion. ] (]) 02:28, 12 January 2024 (UTC) |
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|author9 = |
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:::::::It would only be false balance if the two sides were presented perfectly equally rather than in proportion to the weight they are given in reliable sources. I imagine we could have a shorter section about accusations of genocide against Hamas re: October 7, followed by a longer section about accusations of genocide against Israel in the ensuing war. ] (]) 07:28, 23 January 2024 (UTC) |
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|date9 = 12 August 2024 |
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|url9 = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJVpxdtuiO8 |
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|title9 = Did Misplaced Pages editors just conclude that Israel is committing genocide? |
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|org9 = ] |
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|accessdate9 = 16 August 2024 |
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|author10 = Eviva Winton |
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== Request to add Masha Gessen's comments == |
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|date10 = 14 August 2024 |
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|url10 = https://aijac.org.au/australia-israel-review/wiki-cide/ |
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|title10 = Wiki-cide |
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|org10 = ] |
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|accessdate10 = 21 August 2024 |
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|author11 = |
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], when asked if what is happening in Gaza is a genocide , "I think there are some fine distinctions between genocide and ethnic cleansing and I think that there are valid arguments for using both terms". When pressed further they stated, "it is at the very least ethnic cleansing". This was followed soon after ] surrounding Gessen's receival of the ] over remarks in a critical of Israeli actions in the strip wherein Gessen compared them to an Eastern European Ghetto "being liquidated" by the Nazis. ] (]) 03:02, 10 January 2024 (UTC) |
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|date11 = 11 August 2024 |
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:], added, though in the 'cultural discourse' section since she has no claim to being a legal or similar scholar. ] (]) 11:24, 11 January 2024 (UTC) |
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|url11 = https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/israels-genocide-in-gaza-becomes-a-wikipedia-fact-18193873 |
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::That makes sense. Thank you ] (]) 19:42, 11 January 2024 (UTC) |
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|title11 = Israel's genocide in Gaza becomes a Misplaced Pages fact |
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::@] thanks, @] sorry, I should have checked other replies first. ] (]) 06:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
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|org11 = ] |
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::@] *they |
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|accessdate11 = 21 August 2024 |
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::] (]) 06:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:@] If you're able to edit the article then I agree that's relevant and endorse you adding it, but it needs a reference. |
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:If you're not able to edit the article, can you suggest where that fits and give a link to a citation we can use please? |
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:] (]) 06:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::Just saw someone already done. ] (]) 06:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== Proposed Title Change to "Allegations of genocide by Israel in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war" == |
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|date12 = 6 August 2024 |
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<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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|url12 = https://www.naftemporiki.gr/kosmos/1734602/to-wikipedia-anagnorizei-ti-genoktonia-sti-gaza/ |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' |
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|title12 = Το Misplaced Pages «αναγνωρίζει» τη «γενοκτονία» στη Γάζα |
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|org12 = ] |
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|accessdate12 = 21 August 2024 |
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|author13 = Aviva Winton |
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|date13 = 13 September 2024 |
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|url13 = https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-819899 |
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|title13 = Misplaced Pages has an antisemitism problem - opinion |
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|org13 = ] |
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|accessdate13 = 13 September 2024 |
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|author14 = Mathilda Heller |
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|title14 = Misplaced Pages's page on Zionism is partly edited by an anti-Zionist - investigation |
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|date14 = October 21, 2024 |
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|org14 = ] |
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|url14 = https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-825520 |
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|accessdate14 = October 22, 2024 |
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|author15 = Aaron Bandler |
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|title15 = Misplaced Pages Editors Add “Gaza Genocide” to “List of Genocides” Article |
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|date15 = November 3, 2024 |
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|org15 = ] |
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|url15 = https://jewishjournal.com/news/united-states/376425/wikipedia-editors-add-gaza-genocide-to-list-of-genocides-article/ |
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|accessdate15 = November 4, 2024 |
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|author16 = Rachel Fink |
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|title16 = Misplaced Pages Editors Add Article Titled 'Gaza Genocide' to 'List of Genocides' Page |
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|date16 = November 7, 2024 |
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|org16 = ] |
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|url16 = https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-11-07/ty-article/.premium/wikipedia-editors-add-article-titled-gaza-genocide-to-list-of-genocides-page/00000193-0749-d3a2-a3d7-4f491b760000 |
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|accessdate16 = November 7, 2024 |
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|title17 = After Months of Debate – Misplaced Pages Describes Israel’s War on Gaza as ‘Genocide’ |
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|date17 = November 8, 2024 |
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|org17 = Palestine Chronicle |
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|url17 = https://www.palestinechronicle.com/after-months-of-debate-wikipedia-describes-israels-war-on-gaza-as-genocide/ |
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|accessdate17 = November 8, 2024 |
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|author18 = |
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|title18 = ‘It’s not close’ - Israel committing genocide concludes Misplaced Pages ending editorial debate |
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|date18 = November 8, 2024 |
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|org18 = ] |
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|url18 = https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241108-its-not-close-israel-committing-genocide-concludes-wikipedia-ending-editorial-debate/ |
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|accessdate18 = November 8, 2024 |
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|author19 = Shraga Simmons |
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The result of the move request was: '''Not Moved''' - I can see no consensus for moving at this point, and the discussion has run long enough. The nom raises some quite valid points about accuracy in "war" versus "attack". The oppose !votes are making a point that is not obviously connected to the proposed change in title, or if it is it needed more explanation than they have provided. However, with only one support !vote the necessary consensus is also not really here. This close is without prejudice to opening a further discussion. <small>(])</small> ] (]) 15:03, 13 February 2024 (UTC) |
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|title19 = Weaponizing Misplaced Pages against Israel: How the global information pipeline is being hijacked by digital jihadists. |
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|date19 = November 11, 2024 |
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|org19 = ] |
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|url19 = https://aish.com/weaponizing-wikipedia-against-israel/ |
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|archiveurl19 = https://web.archive.org/web/20241113082217/https://aish.com/weaponizing-wikipedia-against-israel/ |
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|archivedate19 = November 13, 2024 |
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|accessdate19 = December 1, 2024 |
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|author20 = Debbie Weiss |
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|title20 = Misplaced Pages’s Quiet Revolution: How a Coordinated Group of Editors Reshaped the Israeli-Palestinian Narrative |
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|date20 = December 4, 2024 |
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|org20 = ] |
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|url20 = https://www.algemeiner.com/2024/12/04/wikipedias-quiet-revolution-how-coordinated-group-editors-reshaped-israeli-palestinian-narrative/ |
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|accessdate20 = December 5, 2024 |
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{{Old RfD |date=17 January 2024 |result='''keep''' |page=2024 February 1#Gaza genocide}} |
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| date1 = 13 January 2024 |
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| from1 = Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza |
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| destination1 = Allegations of genocide by Israel in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war |
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| from2 = Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza |
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| {{cite news | title= Israel’s Measures Intended to Prevent Births within Gaza Strip - occupied Palestinian territory | publisher= ] | url= https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israels-measures-intended-prevent-births-within-gaza-strip-enar | work= reliefweb.int | date= 30 March 2024 |language=en}} |
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| {{cite news | title= Israel’s Measures Intended to Prevent Births within Gaza Strip | url= https://pchrgaza.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Israels-Measures-intended-to-Prevent-Births-within-Gaza-Strip-1.pdf | work= PCHR }} |
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== Complicity == |
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Aside from the above discussion of merging this article with ], the title of this article is just weird. Yes, I assume that some editor(s) with a particular viewpoint/POV chose to name this article as a parallel with that one. However, as many folks have invoked in the aforementioned discussion, that's just a false parallel. The common name for Israel's action is a "war" (Gaza War, Israel-Hamas War, whichever) rather than an "attack". Misplaced Pages refers to 7 Oct as the ] (and frankly, that genocide allegation Misplaced Pages article title should be amended to match this "Hamas-led" usage, to maintain consistent terminology across Misplaced Pages) while it refers to the events encompassing the Israeli response as the ]. If this article ends up merged, the proper title would likely be "Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war" or, for accuracy and completeness, "Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel and Israel–Hamas war" (a bit long, but more precise and clear). For now, though, as a separate article, calling it the "Israeli attack on Gaza" is inconsistent with the terminology for this event in use elsewhere on Misplaced Pages and, more significantly, in widespread media coverage and public discourse. ] (]) 02:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC) |
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I like to check every once in a while this article about this very serious topic, to see what aberration will I find this time. Last time it was an accussation that my country, Romania, was supposedly complicit in a genocide in the Gaza Strip. Now I found that "European Union states" are complicit. The only source for this was an Amnesty International report concluding Israel was committing genocide . It barely discusses complicity by other states, mentioning the word once: "States that continue to transfer arms to Israel '''are at risk''' of becoming complicit in genocide". It's not even a direct accussation, it is not elaborated on, it does not appeal to other authors and experts, it is not the focus of the report. |
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Handing over accussations of complicity in genocide to countries and even cabinets, which carry the names of individuals (]), is a pretty serious issue. This is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect to see on an infobox cited with 10 sources. Can we really not put some more effort in such an ] claim such as that the United States, the United Kingdom or Germany may be supposedly complicit in genocide in 2024? I am not asking for them to be removed, I am not even tagging the infobox, but I am asking for some professionalism. Stop pointing fingers while empty-handed. This is a highly watched article, put some actual effort in pushing your case, and if you can't, remove it. ] ] ] 01:22, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:Please read the 2nd paragraph on ]. That may help. ] (]) 13:00, 12 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:Though I would really rather have the mentioned cabinets removed. It is practically reducing the complicity accussation from an entire country to a reduced number of individuals. Individuals who have nowhere as near of a level of attributed responsability as Netanyahu or Gallant. Now that, that should be very heavily sourced before even being proposed for inclusion. ] ] ] 01:30, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:Okay, sorry for misunderstanding. Now I know what you meant to say, inconsistency of the naming. ] (]) 13:12, 12 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:Have you read ]? ] ] 01:49, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:@] The current title is appropriate and consistent. |
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::Yes. There is nothing about the European Union there. ] ] ] 01:52, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:The Israeli attack on Gaza is an event within a broader war. The genocide claims are specific to that locality and that attack, e.g. Israel are not currently being accused of genocide in Lebanon or the West Bank. There have been attacks in both those areas, but on a different scale. |
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:::Okay. I didn't say that there was. ] ] 01:53, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:Likewise Hamas et al. are being accused of genocide on 7 October, but nobody is suggesting that their current attacks on IDF troops invading Gaza are a genocide (at least nobody even remotely credible) and that corresponding page has a similar narrow title. |
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::::Did you even read what I wrote before replying? This is the edit that prompted my comment . ] ] ] 01:57, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:] (]) 06:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Yes, I saw that edit before I left my comment. I agreed with it, so didn't revert it. I asked you whether you read ] mostly because you said: |
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::Because attack and genocide are simply not the same thing? ] (]) 07:15, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::{{tq2|Can we really not put some more effort in such an WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim such as that the United States, the United Kingdom or Germany may be supposedly complicit in genocide in 2024?}} |
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:@] I re read the middle of what you said. But I stand by what I wrote originally. There is only one war; the "war" goes all the way from Lebanon to the Red Sea, but the genocide is in the Gaza strip. |
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:::::There are multiple sections on this subject with dozens of sources at ]. There's no acknowledgement of that in your first comment. ] ] 02:01, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:An "attack" is an action within a war, the word "attack" possibly isn't ideal, but "war" isn't a good substitute, because the war is bigger. Do you have any other suggestions? |
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::::::The sources should be in the infobox in the first place. That something is mentioned in the article doesn't mean it should be mentioned in the infobox. Let us see the sources, and then we can judge their value and the weight of their claim and whether it should be included in the infobox. And if editors find the listed supposedly complicit countries next to six academic sources for each, maybe they'll think twice before adding a random country to the list again. |
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:"Invasion" doesn't fit, because the first clearly genocidal act was cutting off the food and water nearly a month before the invasion. And the day before that there were bombings that some would class as the start. |
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::::::Actually, this whole segment of the infobox is quite exceptional for Misplaced Pages practices. We have an entire article on ] which argues some level of complicity, but ]'s infobox does not have such a segment called "Potential complicity". The case on the direct perpetrator of this hasn't even ended, and we are quick to jump and list countries and people that have allegedly helped them commit genocide as a certain fact. ] ] ] 11:37, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:] (]) 06:31, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Essentially, this all comes under the heading of "third states" responsibilty, required by the convention to actively (within reason) prevent genocide. If they do not, then they may be complicit, it's not that complicated. is not that difficult to locate. ] (]) 11:45, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:'''Support'''. "Israeli attack on Gaza" implies that this is a single unilataeral attack rather than an ongoing bilateral war. Furthermore, reliable source do not refer to it as the "2023 Israeli attack on Gaza". The article should be renamed to ] ] (]) 08:33, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::The burden on reading and citing sources is not on me, given my apparent position. ] ] ] 12:04, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:'''Comment''' We have ] and ] and apparently we are missing ] to balance things up. Or perhaps we only need the middle one. This sort of titling is common atm, we have ] too but not a ] except as a redirect to the former, Idk why. The current title seems already to refer to an allegation against Israel without the need to further alter it.] (]) 11:24, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:I tend to agree with Super Dro that the EU as a whole aren't complicit simply on the vague say-so of Amnesty, and it's a stretch to even say that the source supports the statement in the article. Actually, I've been recently thinking that Amnesty and other orgs who appear to have taken up a political cause for activism on the conflict, presumably in some small part also to raise more money for their orgs by talking up a cause celebre, should be considered advocacy org think tanks or advocacy charities with a bias that should generally be attributed as treated as ] when they are weighing in like this without any real new substance in their report. Similar to how we use SPLC or the ADL but don't treat them as similar to more neutral sources like reputable news or academic sources. Anyway, unless there are better sources I'd say remove this. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 02:04, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:'''Strong Oppose'''. The overwhelmingly vast majority of the victims in this conflict have been innocent Palestinian civilians. ] (]) 07:38, 12 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::AI recent RFC is green, need to distinguish between factual reporting, which AI is very good at and when they are engaged in advocacy. Attacks on Amnesty reliability are rarely made based on the evidence, {{tq|appear to have taken up a political cause for activism on the conflict}} being more the usual thing. ] (]) 11:36, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:'''Oppose'''. As per @]. ] (]) 08:32, 12 February 2024 (UTC) |
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<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] --> |
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</div><div style="clear:both;" class=></div> |
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* I was writing a comment justifying why in the end I was going to tag the potential complicity segment of the infobox as undue, but {{u|Elshad}} has removed it . I expect that to be reverted, so I will continue. |
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== First sentence of background is awkward == |
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:Reading the United Kingdom subsection, there is not ''one'' single source that is directly accussing the UK of genocide complicity. The entire subsection is lawyers, NGOs and human rights groups saying the UK ''may risk'' being complicit, or individuals who are actually not making use of the word genocide. |
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:Regarding Germany, there is Lena Obermaier writing for a socialist magazine, not very solid. Then there is a mention of German lawyers sueing Scholz and his cabinet, and Nicaragua's sue against Germany. This is at least something more than the UK, but they are ongoing cases without a resolution. The subsection completely lacks academic sources. |
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:Why should we list these two countries and their governments as supposedly complicit in the infobox, when their respective subsections lack accussations with certainty? I don't see credible sources arguing in long papers why these two countries may, in fact, be complicit, nor do I see direct accussations from international organizations. The infobox uses the wording "Potential complicity", but having countries listed on the top of the article under such a segment has its obvious effect on readers. Considering the claims have a weak substantiation in the article, I do not think allowing this effect is appropriate. ] ] ] 12:01, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::By the way, the section on the genocidal actions is titled "Alleged genocidal actions", and that of complicity, "International complicity", treating it as uncontroversial fact. I have renamed it to "Alleged international complicity". I am open to other titles such as "Discussion on international complicity" or other alternatives, which do not treat complicity as an already certain fact. ] ] ] 12:06, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::{{u|Smallangryplanet}}, I reverted you, and invite you to discuss here the header of the complicity section. As I said, I am open to discuss alternatives to "alleged", but considering the name of the second section of the article, I don't think it should keep the header I changed. ] ] ] 00:27, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::The section is about factual complicity in alleged genocide, and there is consensus that referring to it as "Gaza Genocide" does not have to include "alleged", but at any rate the complicity component is not alleged. I also removed some of the text that referred to alleged or unconfirmed complicity, making the header "International complicity" accurate. ] (]) 11:12, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::{{tq|The section is about factual complicity in alleged genocide}} this implies that whether there is a genocide is the only controversial part, and that if we consider there to be a genocide, we must necessarily also consider the perpetrator to have accomplices, for which there is no reason. The section is filled with hypothethical language, at least for the UK and Germany, that Israel has accomplices in genocide is not uncontroversial fact. Nicaragua has started an ICJ case against Germany on the topic of facilitating genocide, your interpretation presents the ongoing case as having a verdict already. ] seems to be a defined thing in international law. Does any help provided to Israel's war effort fall within this legal space? I doubt sources say this. ] ] ] 11:33, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::{{u|Selfstudier}}, thanks for the header rename, it's an improvement. ] ] ] 12:11, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::I think @]'s header rename resolves this portion of the dispute. Thanks for that! ] (]) 17:18, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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{{od}} |
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: First sentence of background reads very strangely, "{{tq|'''Background''' - After Israel began the bombing of Gaza following the ], some Palestinians immediately expressed concern that this violence would be used to justify genocide against Palestinians by Israel." }} |
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There are sources for this. Besides Amnesty International link: |
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: But I'm stumped on how to fix it. Can a better writer than I am please have a go at turning it into something cohesive? |
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* {{tq2|"A failure by states such as Germany, the UK and the US to reassess how they are providing support to Israel provides grounds to question whether those states are violating the obligation to prevent genocide or could even at some point be considered complicit in acts of genocide or other violations of international law," Michael Becker, a professor of international human rights law at Trinity College in Dublin who has previously worked at the ICJ}} |
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: It looks like multiple people have added three opinionated words each? All of the points there probably should be included, but connected better and with a more even tone. |
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: ] (]) 06:07, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::Flaws seem to be that it isn't only Palestinians, it isn't now only concerns about ''what would happen'', it's about deeds rather than only about justification. ] (]) 07:20, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::, I don't know whether this works for others. ] (]) 07:40, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
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* |
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== Civilian attack infobox == |
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* {{tq2|The transfer of weapons and ammunition to Israel may constitute serious violations of human rights and international humanitarian laws and risk State complicity in international crimes, possibly including genocide, UN experts said today, reiterating their demand to stop transfers immediately.<br/>In line with recent calls from the Human Rights Council and the independent UN experts to States to cease the sale, transfer and diversion of arms, munitions and other military equipment to Israel, arms manufacturers supplying Israel – including BAE Systems, Boeing, Caterpillar, General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Oshkosh, Rheinmetall AG, Rolls-Royce Power Systems, RTX, and ThyssenKrupp – should also end transfers, even if they are executed under existing export licenses.}} |
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The article has acquired a civilian attack infobox. It is much less muddled, PoV and synthy than that of the . Still, is this apt for an article about accusations? ] (]) 06:51, 16 January 2024 (UTC) |
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* ]: We don't have any ] sources about this yet, but complicity is mentioned pretty early in this ] source. : {{tq2|Genocide cannot be justified under any circumstances, including purported self-defence.32 Complicity is expressly prohibited, giving rise to obligations for third states.33}} |
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:I would say not. ] (]) 07:31, 23 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::Considering various other genocide accusation articles, including specifically in contexts of war, also use the same infobox for a brief summary, it would seem to be the best one we have until a specific one is created, and would be in line to how we treat other articles of a similar nature. -- ] (]) 13:45, 28 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::This is less synthy than the related infobox, but how do you decide what are the motives for an allegation? Who says that the motives are ] or ]? Finally, where in the article are these motives expounded?] (]) 10:40, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::::It may be better to leave that section blank until we have more comprehensive sources that state the alleged motives. Though for a the three motives listed, on the first that is easy to cite to the statements of Israeli officials on declaring war against Hamas and Gaza. The second you could cite to previous statements in recent years from government officials and politicians, such as declaring Palestine and Palestinians do not exist, alongside statements that declare the West Bank and Gaza as Israeli territory, and the dehumanising language used against Palestinians both before October 2023 and since. For the third point, you'd cite it to such papers as: |
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::::* {{cite journal |last1=Wolfe |first1=Patrick |author1-link=Patrick Wolfe |title=Settler colonialism and the elimination of the native |journal=] |date=21 December 2006 |volume=8 |issue=4 |pages=387–409 |doi=10.1080/14623520601056240 |doi-access=free}} |
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::::* {{cite journal |last1=Rashed |first1=Haifa |last2=Short |first2=Damien |author2-link=Damien Short |title=Genocide and settler colonialism: can a Lemkin-inspired genocide perspective aid our understanding of the Palestinian situation? |journal=The International Journal of Human Rights |date=2012 |volume=16 |issue=8 |pages=1142–1169 |doi=10.1080/13642987.2012.735494 |s2cid=145422458}} |
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::::* {{cite journal |last1=Shaw |first1=Martin |author1-link=Martin Shaw (sociologist) |title=Palestine and Genocide: An International Historical Perspective Revisited |journal=] |date=2013 |volume=12 |issue=1 |pages=1–7 |doi=10.3366/hls.2013.0056}} |
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::::You could also cite it to any of the news pieces written which cover the treatment of Palestinians in the Palestinian territories by Israeli settlers. -- ] (]) 18:35, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
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"Potential complicity" already avoids saying these states are complicit in Wikivoice ] (]) 19:26, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== "]" listed at ] == |
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:I think the only case in which a country should be presented as complicit in genocide is if there is consensus on sources, not if it's only "potential". This is a pretty low threshold in which we could theorically put many countries. No other country is treated at Israel's level regarding engagement in genocide among sources, to my knowledge at least. The sources you listed use wording "could", "may" and "risk", without direct accussations. I am not sure but I doubt this article was moved to its current title based on sources with such wording. ] ] ] 00:27, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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] |
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::I don't think America will ever have a consensus in its newspapers that they are helping with genocide! ] (]) 13:47, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 17#Gaza genocide}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 13:33, 17 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::You can think whatever you wish. We don't need to use American media to talk about the actions of the United States anyway. I don't get your point. ] ] ] 15:20, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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{{od}} |
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== "We will eliminate everything" == |
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{{u|Super Dromaeosaurus}}, we do not require there to be consensus among sources to add content in Misplaced Pages (unless it is ]). Maybe you are confusing this with ], which is the decision-making process in Misplaced Pages. |
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This is a mistranslation and misinformation. The actual quote is {{tq|Gaza will not return to what it was before. There will be no Hamas. We will eliminate it all.}} --] (]) 11:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC) |
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The relevant policies here are ], ], and ] overall. ] is satisfied. The sources above are reliable (and these are the best type of sources available at this time I believe. I don't think there are any peer-reviewed, ] that are published on non-predatory high impact journals yet). Here's another source, : |
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:I've modified so as to report the initial quote - and its correction rather than simply linking to an article saying "the quote was wrong".] (]) 10:35, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{tq2|Thus, the failure to issue the second and third measures requested by South Africa is baffling, particularly in light of the continued supply of more deadly arms shipments to Israel from states with strong financial, military, and political links with Israel, chief amongst them the US, despite the UNSC ceasefire resolution 2728.Footnote166 When analysing the commission of genocide in Gaza, the reasonable conclusion is that the US is a major enabler and partner in crime to Israel.Footnote167 In the words of a leading Israeli commentator: "without arms and ammunition from the US, we would have had to resort to fighting with sticks and stones long ago."Footnote168 In light of the reservations that the US attached to its ratification of the Convention,Footnote169 requiring its consent to allow ICJ jurisdiction,Footnote170 this importance is heightened in the proceedings that Nicaragua instituted in the ICJ against another state, Germany, in relation to its complicity in Israeli genocide.Footnote171 Moreover, even after the second ICJ provisional measures, the UK announced that it will continue to licence arms' exports to Israel.Footnote172 Continued arms supply and the suspension of financial support to UNRWA clearly illustrate these states' failure to discharge their duty to prevent.Footnote173}} |
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:That is NYT correction (ie they reviewed the thing again) of their initial report so they believe it to be "everything". ] (]) 11:13, 29 January 2024 (UTC) |
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Argument for ] is above. The wording is neutral ("potential complicity"). We are not saying these are definitely complicit. We are following the sources. Overall ] is satisfied. |
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Unless a '''valid argument''' (based on sources and/or ]) is provided, I'm going to restore this material. Given the above source I'll only add US, Germany and UK. ] (]) 16:07, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Suggested edit: Main article link for ] == |
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:We need a consensus among sources for ] claims such as that these three countries are complicit in genocide. You are proposing to restore a disputed exceptional claim that isn't even presented as certain. I will tag the content upon restoration. ] ] ] 16:26, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::I don't think the argument that supplying arms may make you complicit is ]. Also, if you go to the policy you cited, none of the bullet points seem to apply. This has been covered by "multiple mainstream sources". Complicity is in secondary sources. Is the prevailing view that none of these countries are complicit? |
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::The only appropriate tag would be <nowiki>{{Template:Better source needed}}</nowiki>, requesting a secondary source for the countries mentioned. But this is a recent and ongoing event, so it'll take time for those type of sources to emerge. ] (]) 16:46, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::{{u|Super Dromaeosaurus}}, please explain the relevance tag you put. Complicity is in secondary sources, so it is relevant. See above. Provide a valid argument based on sources and/or ] please. ] (]) 19:21, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Complicity is nowhere. I am disputing the existence of consensus among sources that Israel has accomplices in genocide, and I am disputing the relevance of adding specific countries to the infobox when the accussations are only potential and non-direct. ] ] ] 19:24, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I do believe the claim that the US, UK and Germany are complicit in a genocide in the Gaza Strip is an exceptional claim. {{tq|Is the prevailing view that none of these countries are complicit?}} yes, most of the sources I've seen here use language employing "could"s, "may"s and "risk"s. ] ] ] 19:26, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::What do you mean {{tq|Complicity is nowhere}}? |
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:::::Complicity is mentioned in this ] source:. There's obviously another ICJ case against Germany. |
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:::::Are there any sources that say these countries are definitely not or unlikely to be complicit? ] (]) 19:29, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Am I missing something? This is all page 4 says: {{tq|Complicity is expressly prohibited, giving rise to obligations for third states.}} No third states that may have violated these obligations are mentioned. That an ICJ case against Germany is currently open does not increase the argument's strength a lot in particular, as obviously we don't know what will the veredict be yet. The ICJ hasn't made any pre-veredict comments either, as, if I am not wrong, has happened with South Africa's case. |
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::::::I doubt such sources exist. I am not disputing the existence of allegations against these countries. I am disputing whether they're relevant enough to specifically mention them in the infobox. I propose to mention the existence of allegations of complicity by third states in the Accused parameters, as a fourth bullet point. But the mention of specific countries sets a pretty low bar that can be exploited to include random countries, so long as one source establishes concern on a risk of complicity over a country that is otherwise undiscussed in this regard among reliable sources. Because one source would not suffice, in my opinion, to give credit to an exceptional claim such as genocide complicity. ] ] ] 19:46, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::There is not one source. Multiple sources are there. |
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:::::::{{u|Super Dromaeosaurus}}, are you disputing ], or ] (based on ], or both? ] (]) 19:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::I've already expressed what do I disagree with. Listing individual countries. I think it sets a bad precedent because it lowers the bar for inclusion of complicity allegations. What criteria would you set, Bogazicili, to avoid the inclusion of fringe claims in this part of the infobox by other users who may be incited by seeing three countries already listed? ] ] ] 20:05, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I'm not asking your personal opinion. I'm asking you to reference a specific Misplaced Pages policy. I need a blue wikilink in your response. If the concern is about DUE, I can direct you to ]. |
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:::::::::Note that ]. ] (]) 20:11, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::You seem to be either attempting to disregard my argument based on a lack of appeal to a specific Misplaced Pages rule, or attempting to get me to cite a specific Misplaced Pages rule and then state it does not support my point. You have an editor who has expressed a concern, and even a proposed solution; if you are unable to discuss that concern or a potential middle ground, you should disengage from the discussion. |
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::::::::::I have not expressed any personal opinion, nor engaged in a forum discussion. ] ] ] 20:26, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::This is the personal opinion part: {{tq|Listing individual countries. I think it sets a bad precedent because it lowers the bar for inclusion of complicity allegations.}} |
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:::::::::::Unless a valid rationale is provided, I'm going to remove the tag. You added the tag, so you need to provide the valid reasoning. Your personal opinion about setting a bad precedent is not a valid reason. |
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:::::::::::This isn't the ] ] (]) 20:31, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::'''I recommend other users to express their opinion on this dispute''', as discussion with this user is completely unfruitful. |
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::::::::::::Obviously, if I find myself in disagreement with a bunch, I will back down and accept the current text and my tag's removal, as, for all those wanting blue links, a ] will have formed against my position. So, do you think it is warranted to mention specifically these three countries as complicit? Based on what, these specific three? Why not previous inclusions like Australia, "European Union states" or Romania? Maybe because these three are more often mentioned in secondary sources? May we reflect this with some heavy citing, discouraging any users from potentially adding any other fringe claim again along these currently lightly-cited (previously uncited) ones? Or will I come back to this page in some months, and see that Hungary is complicit of genocide in the Gaza Strip ? Sorry for the rhetorical tone, but I think it gets my point across. ] ] ] 20:51, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::To the contrary I find an accusation of those three countries in particular being complicit in a genocide to not be extraordinary in the least ] ] ] - however an historical record of participation in genocide isn't what's needed here. What is needed is reliable secondary sources which, per @], have been provided. ] (]) 19:31, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::To appeal to the past, and link the Holocaust, as evidence of something happening in the present, is a pretty weak argument unworthy of consideration. ] ] ] 19:46, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::I also linked to the ] and the ] because my point is that complicity in genocide is not, exactly, extraordinary for any of these countries, all three of which have committed at least one, if not more than one genocide. See also: ] and ]. ] (]) 20:11, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::My dispute, specifically, is that you are describing complicity per ]. Of course reliable sources should provided for complicity in this event which is increasingly being described in reliable secondary sources as a genocide. However it's not extraordinary for the USA to be involved in a genocide. They do so often enough in other theaters. ] (]) 20:13, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::One way of looking at this is whether it would be possible to create, for example, an article ], looking at the refs in the article, there is at least enough for a stub and there exist I think, other sources in addition, like the one I gave above already, or |
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:::::::::"In light of the above, Israel might be committing the international crime of genocide, by killing civilians in Gaza; deliberately inflicting serious bodily and mental harm; and imposing conditions of life to bring about the destruction of Palestinians in Gaza. However, the US has continuously supported Israel's war efforts via diplomatic and military assistance, with knowledge of a plausible genocide being committed in the territory since at least January 2024. This may render the US internationally responsible for not merely failing to prevent genocide but also being an accomplice to the crime of genocide in Gaza." |
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:::::::::Accusation of course but if the sources are there to back it up, then we should show that, I am not that fond of infoboxes because they frequently produce tedious disputes, but as long as we make clear that it is still an accusation and show proper sourcing, I don't see a problem. ] (]) 15:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::The Irish potato famine was not a genocide. The article you link makes it clear that the vast majority of historians reject this view, and so should not be linked here. ] (]) 17:16, 17 December 2024 (UTC) |
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{{od}} Another ] source which discusses complicity: ] (]) 16:09, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*{{comment}} I find that having a template stating {{tq|(relevant? discuss)}} attached to genocide accusations is quite disturbing. Let alone the lack of morals, is complicity in genocide ''encyclopedically'' relevant? '''Yes''', both per international law –which expressely forbids it– and cases like ]. Just stick to sourced accusations tho, of course. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 17:36, 27 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*:Given no one else except {{u|Super Dromaeosaurus}} objected to this in over a week, and given the secondary sources provided, I'm removing this template. ] (]) 14:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I only hope that, given you {{u|Bogazicili}} completely refused to have a proper discussion with me, that you at least do care enough to remove fringe claims about other countries if they appear in the future. ] ] ] 14:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I did not refuse "proper discussion". I asked you to base your arguments on sources and Wiki policies. ] (]) 14:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::I stated my arguments and you linked the village pump or WP:FORUM for some reason. Much of my arguments asked for the removal of content; an argument like this cannot really be based on sources. I also asked for listed countries to be more strongly sourced to visually discourage editors from adding poorly-sourced claims. This is just proof of the disregard of the other side from your part. ] ] ] 14:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Sources such as were provided. You refused to give a Misplaced Pages policy to back up your argument: {{tq|You seem to be either attempting to disregard my argument based on a lack of appeal to a specific Misplaced Pages rule}} . If you want, you can proceed to ]. ] (]) 14:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::I've already expressed what I want: that the diligence that was missing in the past be applied in the future. I don't think I should repeat it once again. ] ] ] 15:00, 29 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Short description (again) == |
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After the heading |
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<code>=== Center for Constitutional Rights lawsuit ===</code> |
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Regarding : I have gone ahead and reverted it. Per the ], I gave other editors ample time to express their objections to my short description proposal. As I mentioned before, a short description of "Accusation of genocide against Palestinians in Gaza" is ambiguous (is the accusation being leveled against Palestinians?). In contrast, the short description "Characterization of Israeli mass killings in Gaza" is far less ambiguous and is a description of this article's content. Again, if anyone has comments/concerns/thoughts on this issue, feel free to raise them here. ] (]) 23:24, 15 December 2024 (UTC) |
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I request that a link to the main article for this lawsuit be inserted on the line immediately following that heading. |
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:{{ping|JasonMacker}} How about "Accusation of genocide ''perpetrated '' against Palestinians in Gaza"? --] (]) 03:56, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::...why? What's wrong with characterization? I don't understand the motivation here. Can you first explain what your problem is with the current short description? ] (]) 04:12, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I'm merely suggesting an improvement of the original description that addresses your criticism of ambiguity. But since you ask, I'm not enamoured with the new description; it sounds oddly vague and anemic. It's best to name names, both who and whom – and preferrably also when. --] (]) 05:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::The current short description is 49 characters, including spaces. Your suggestion, "Accusation of genocide perpetrated by Israel against Palestinians in Gaza" is 73 characters, which would make it among the 3% longest short descriptions on Misplaced Pages. Again, per ], the whole point of a short description is to provide a one-sentence summary of the article's content. Here, the article's content is to discuss how Israel's mass killings of Palestinians in Gaza ought to be characterized, with a large number of scholars & experts characterizing it as a genocide, but government officials and other figures characterizing the mass killings as not a genocide. I don't see how the current short description is "oddly vague and anemic." It's a direct description of the article's current content. On the other hand, I don't see how the "Accusation..." proposal can satisfactorily describe the subject matter of the article. There are just too many articles that can have "Accusation of" added to their short description and also still be true, which indicates that those two words are superfluous. Imagine if the ] article (whose current short description is "Human-caused changes to climate on Earth" was changed to "Accusation that humans cause climate change on Earth." I mean sure, that would be true, but the problem here is that it doesn't actually provide the reader with additional information. At the same time, this article is not specifically about genocide the way that, say, the ] article is. And it's for that reason that your proposed short description, minus "Accusation of" would be an inappropriate short description of this article's content. Instead, this article is mostly focusing on the ''characterization'' of genocide. And so I don't understand the logic behind changing it to begin with "Accusation of" again, and that's ignoring the issue of having too long of a short description. ] (]) 19:23, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== "Date" in the infobox is inconsistent. == |
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{{main|Defense for Children International-Palestine et al v. Biden et al}} |
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Currently, the "Date" section of the infobox is as follows: |
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] (]) 07:43, 5 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:7 October 2023 – present |
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: {{Done}}, thanks. — ] ] 10:16, 5 February 2024 (UTC) |
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How is it that this alleged "Gaza genocide" can be perpetrated as early as October 7, 2023, the very day Hamas massacred / raped / kidnapped Israeli civilians? Prior to any Israeli military intervention? --] (]) 08:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== More sources == |
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:I don't think that "7 October 2023 – present" means that a genocide took place on 7 October, it means that a genocide took place/is taking place during that period. |
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Some more sources |
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:If one looks at the case filed by South Africa, it says (III. THE FACTS A. Introduction, page 9), it begins "Since 7 October 2023, Israel has engaged in a large-scale military assault by land, air and sea, on the Gaza Strip (‘Gaza’), a narrow strip of land approximately of 365 square kilometres – one of the most densely populated places in the world." or from the Amnesty report "Amnesty International called on the ICC "to urgently consider the commission of the crime of genocide by Israeli officials since 7 October 2023 in the ongoing investigation into the situation in the State of Palestine". |
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* {{cite news |first=Jillian |last=Kestler-D'Amours |date=9 January 2024 |title=Israel's war on Gaza and the 'obligation to prevent genocide' |url=https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/9/israels-war-on-gaza-and-the-obligation-to-prevent-genocide |work=]}} |
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:Is there any reason to believe that it should start at some other date? ] (]) 10:24, 26 December 2024 (UTC) |
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* {{cite news |date=5 February 2024 |title=Nicaragua taking Germany, Canada, UK, Netherlands to ICJ for genocide |url=https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/nicaragua-taking-germany--canada--uk--netherlands-to-icj-for |work=Al Mayadeen}} |
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:Israel, even before responding to the Hamas infiltrations in their own territory almost immediately responded to the October 7 retaliation by bombing civilians in Gaza. |
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* {{cite news |date=5 February 2024 |title=Former UNWRA Spokesperson Says UK & US Complicit in Gaza Genocide |url=https://novaramedia.com/2024/02/05/former-unwra-spokesperson-says-uk-us-complicit-in-gaza-genocide/ |work=]}} |
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:Over 200 civilians in Gaza were killed by Israeli bombardment on the same day |
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-- ] (]) 18:47, 6 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231007-sirens-heard-as-dozens-of-rockets-fired-from-gaza-towards-israel ] (]) 10:58, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
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== Recent changes == |
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Would the following sources also be acceptable to add? |
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There has been many recent changes attempting to minimise the conflict, even the clever wording of the first paragraph that some have tried to amend. Can we please discuss this here before making moves like that to the article? Thanks. ] (]) 02:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC) |
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https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/ |
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:{{re|Ecpiandy}} Afaik, there is only one UN agency, do you know of another? ] (]) 09:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC) |
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https://www.972mag.com/israel-police-repression-protests-gaza/ |
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::If there is only one why is it labelled as such? Would you say "a Canadian government has described this as genocide?" No, you would say "Canada has described this as genocide." ] (]) 23:55, 31 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::It said UN agencies, which was just wrong so I fixed it. ] (]) 00:24, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
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::::What was wrong with how it was originally written for months? ] (]) 01:46, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:::::It said UN agencies, which is wrong. Oh, I just said that, did you read it? ] (]) 09:54, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:::::I think it's that "UN agencies" is wrong but "UN agency" is right? ] (]) 10:16, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
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::::::Right, the UNGA Special Committee on Israeli Practices, mentioned specifically in Line 2, has called it out as a genocide. OHCHR has only said that it could be and the Rapporteurs are experts mandated by the UN rather than UN organs. So unless I missed one, there is only one "agency" rather than agencies. ] (]) 10:39, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:::::::Would it be an option to simply name the agency in question instead of saying "a UN agency"? I came to this article as a reader, not an editor, so I'll defer to you guys who are more involved in this subject area, but when I saw "a UN agency" my immediate question was "which one?" -- ] ] 21:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC) |
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::::::::As I just said, it is named, in Line 2. ] (]) 21:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC) |
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== Edit request from ] == |
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] (]) 08:37, 15 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Link to Channel 14 == |
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Channel 14 is mentioned twice in the article. It is not clear what / who this channel is. It would be better to make the first reference a link to the Misplaced Pages article about Channel 14. ] (]) 13:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{Done}}, thanks. — ] (]) 13:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Edit request 13 February 2024 == |
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{{edit extended-protected|answered=yes}} |
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{{edit extended-protected|answered=yes}} |
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Genocide Watch states that: „A genocide of the Palestinian people by Israel is underway in Gaza. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister General Yoav Gallant have demonstrated their intent to destroy a substantial portion of the civilian population of Gaza. Israel is committing war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide in Gaza. It is also committing crimes against humanity against Palestinians in the West Bank.” See https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-emergency-gaza-and-the-west-bank-2024 This information should be added to first paragraph of ] ] (]) 21:59, 3 January 2025 (UTC) |
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'''Description of suggested change:''' Please add a wikilink for "]" to the phrase "intent to destroy" in the first paragraph, so that it reads <nowiki>]</nowiki>. |
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:] '''Not done''': it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 23:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:'''Done''': Reference to Genocide Watch's updated position has been added to the relevant section. -- ] (]) 00:02, 7 January 2025 (UTC) |
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'''Diff:''' |
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{{TextDiff|1=ORIGINAL_TEXT|2=CHANGED_TEXT}} ] (]) 10:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:EEp --> — ] ] 11:11, 13 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thank you. ] (]) 11:40, 13 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Recent edits that detract from the point of this particular page == |
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Hello. |
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by seem to distort the context of this particular page into prioritising the crimes of Hamas over the statistically enormously greater crimes of the state of Israel, which are the entire point of this page, and the initial crimes of Hamas have already been more throroughly dealt with in the "]" page that was already linked to at the start of this page. |
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As such, I would much prefer if we revert this page to how it was organised previously. ] (]) 09:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:Very much agreed. I agree that they distortionary and essentially biased obfuscation. Even if others do not agree, the edits do remain entirely tangential at the very best and have no place in the lead. ] (]) 12:44, 18 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::I think that it is probably fine to revert those edits then. ] (]) 20:10, 18 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Totally agree. ] (]) 06:34, 19 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I added a redirect to this website from the Aaron Bushnell section of political self immolations. I think it provides readers with the most appropriate context and it's an abundant site ] (]) 06:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Rhetoric from politicians in the United States == |
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What does this section have to do with anything? Ron DeSantis and other American wingnuts don't speak for the Israeli government, they aren't proof of genocidal intent. ] 13:03, 22 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:Well, to be fair, as far as I am aware, the Israeli government is extremely closely allied in major policy issues with the politicians of both the main U.S. parties. ] (]) 14:49, 22 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::It is, but then again people like RDS aren't actually in charge of American foreign or military affairs, so it's hard to see how that applies. If it were Biden, that'd be different. ] 10:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I agree. We don't need to quote every nut who decides to comment about the Middle East situation, especially if it concerns legal aspects. Just because someone was shown on Fox News or CNN doesn't mean it must go into an encyclopaedia. — ] ] 10:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::: I've removed the section, as no reason was presented why the internal electoral rhetoric in the US should be given prominence in the section about legal aspects of Israeli actions. — ] ] 11:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Okay. Never mind then. ] (]) 15:04, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Should the information be moved to the following page instead? https://en.wikipedia.org/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war ] (]) 16:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Indeed, looks like a good target. — ] ] 16:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Okay. Would you be willing to handle it, or should we wait for more confirmations first? ] (]) 16:38, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Maybe someone else could do it... I somehow don't find it rewarding to spend my time on DeSantis's speeches. Sorry! — ] ] 17:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::The point is it was deemed prevalent and noteworthy enough to include in the article ], where the "Rhetoric" section is all bar 1 (small) paragraph is about the 2023-2024 conflict. As that article is meant to cover the broader and full history of the genocide accusation, the commentary on politicians complicity and also inciting genocide is better suited being in this article. And, a single day for a "discussion" to be decided, especially on hot articles like this seems a bit premature, to say the least. -- ] (]) 17:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I do not personally mind if the section in question is returned, but what do you think about my suggestion above? ] (]) 19:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::That could work, then reduce the text in the two genocide accusation pages done to a brief overview, while linking to the relevant section of ]. I do believe it's unwieldly for the genocide accusation articles in it's current state, and this is after I've already been through and condensed the text from it's previous even-more expansive state. -- ] (]) 21:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::{{Ping|Kashmiri|Jftsang}} Would that solution be acceptable for you? ] (]) 06:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::It seems like the other, more on-topic, page organises such comments more concisely and in chronological order though, so that format likely needs to be adhered to there. ] (]) 06:24, 24 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Add United States to accused list == |
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The United States and Joe Biden are frequently accused of complicitly or outright participation in the genocide and South Africa has considered opening a case against them. Should they be added to the accused list? ] (]) 21:03, 24 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:Looking through the infoboxes for all the other genocides/accusations, there's not a perfect match for having those accused of complicity in the infobox. The closest is ] with Belarus, but there Belarus is actively engaged in what can be labelled an act of genocide (forcible transfer of children), so while I have no problem personally adding the US to the accused, convincing others it fits in that section of the infobox may be more difficult. -- ] (]) 00:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== The statistical support among the population of Israel for preventing all transfer of humanitarian aid to Gaza == |
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The following public opinion poll by the ] reveals that 68% of the population of Israel supports preventing all international transfer of humanitarian aid to the population of Gaza. That information seems extremely noteworthy to include in this page. |
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https://en.idi.org.il/articles/52976 |
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https://mondoweiss.net/2024/02/over-2-3-of-jewish-israelis-oppose-humanitarian-aid-to-palestinians-starving-in-gaza/ |
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] (]) 17:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:There's also ] , as well as for Israeli from entering Gaza. While this can be evidence towards "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", we'd really need a source to link these opinions and actions to genocide for a solid citation. -- ] (]) 00:25, 27 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::Well, the issue here as I perceive it is that if 68% of the population of Israel actively wants all of the 2.3 million Palestinians to starve to death, that also puts significant pressure on their government to act out that desire, and makes that part of the Israeli population at least partially complicit in the genocide that is currently occurring, so it seems important to mention somewhere in the Misplaced Pages pages covering this horrible situation. ] (]) 04:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::57% maintain the bombing so far is not sufficient and has to be increased, another 35% think that the IDF's bombing volume is more or less adequate. The problem with these things, as with all polls, is that Israeli analysts of their country's war reportage conclude that very little of the realities on the ground in Gaza is covered. Complicity implies full awareness. Civilians rarely grasp in any depth the full scale of what their representatives do, ostensibly in their name. Of course in a digital age, all we see is accessible in Israel, but but ultimately the focus should be on those who plan, and execute these operations, otherwise one falls into the same error Israeli leaders themselves make, of confounding all people under Hamas rule as responsible for whatever has been done by Hamas. Collective guilt is a very dangerous concept.] (]) 05:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::::That is a good point. ] (]) 06:15, 27 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::With Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International's statements on the matter, I've added a section, also detailing the survey. -- ] (]) 18:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Rationale for name change == |
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The absolutely abhorrent actions taken by the IDF, as well as the clear genocidal intent expressed by Israeli cabinet ministers, are CLEAR justification for the name change. To displace millions of people, to tell them to move to specific zones, only to then indiscriminately bombard those zones. To bomb hospitals, schools, areas known to only be home to civilians. To murder thousands of children. The of Israel murdering civilians who were gathering aid. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of stories which justify this name change. |
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We must, of course, not let emotion dictate edits on Misplaced Pages, but this entire genocidal campaign by Israel is beyond disgusting. Any person who still defends these actions is completely morally bankrupt, and it is astonishing to learn of how many deplorable people are amongst us in this world. |
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== Another important publication == |
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There is no other word for what Israel is doing besides genocide. Given other examples on the ], it is again astonishing that this "conflict" is not included. |
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For review: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2024.2448061 ] (]) 09:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC) |
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I am sickened. Everyone should be sickened. We cannot continue to endorse Israeli lies on Misplaced Pages, and cannot continue to peddle the narrative that Israel hold some kind of moral superiority in this situation. ] (]) 18:27, 29 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:That's a more in depth account than the Speri article, I would say, based on "Despite all these, as the above examples suggests, the Israel-critical camp has grown considerably louder in the last year" and given that this is again concerned mainly with the US, we have the balance in our article more or less correct. ] (]) 12:17, 9 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Davidlofgren1996}} Look, I agree with you that what Israel is doing in Gaza right now likely amounts to genocide, but considering how contentious this topic is and the arbitration remedy associated with it, I really don't think it's a good idea to change the name without consensus. I'm not going to revert it because frankly I just don't feel like going through the motions to sort this out and get consensus one way or the other, but I would advise you notify relevant Wikiprojects and editors of articles relevant to this topic via the respective talk pages of the Wikiprojects and articles. ] (]) 20:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::Antisemitism has been quoted back at people so much I'm sure it has made many people antisemitic. It is like an engineer in charge of some building works who was told practically any time he said some work needed redoing that he was saying it because they were black. He couldn't have cared less what colour they were. It just led to his hating the job and the people saying that and leaving. ] (]) 12:58, 9 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:::This seems entirely disconnected from the topic of this discussion. Please see ]. ] (]) 13:47, 9 January 2025 (UTC) |
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::Yes it covers similar ground to Speri but with much more depth and analytical rigour. I agree both largely confirm the balance of this article. |
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:: mentions ], ], ], ], ] and ] and on one side, ] and ] on the other. Of these, all but Hirsch, Goda and Herf figure prominently in our article, so this secondary source largely confirms our sense of who is DUE. On this basis, we should consider adding Hirsch, Goda and Herf to the article. |
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::Speri also notes |
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:::Early in the war, this debate played out in op-eds and . In one, more than 150 academics framed the Hamas attacks as an echo of “the pogroms that paved the way to the Final Solution”. In another, more than 55 scholars warned of the “danger of genocide” by Israel in Gaza and invoked states’ duty to intervene. |
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::I think we might consider citing these letters. The signatories are very notable (including ], ] and ] in the case of ; |
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::Bartov, and ] in the ; Goda, Herf, Gross, and ] ). |
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::IKlein mentions Segal, Bartov, ], ], the NYRB letter, ], ], ] on one side. I think we mention all of those except Moyn and the NYRB letter. On the other side she mentions Bauer, ], ], ], the Grabowski letter, ], Herf & Goda's letter, and ]. Of these, our coverage is weaker, I think only mentioning Berenbaum and Zavadivker. I would suggest we correct that slight imbalance. |
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::The key thing that both Speri and Klein set out very well, which I don't think we reflect, is that the discipline of genocide studies has been fundamentally split by this question, which seems an important point to me. ] (]) 15:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:::I did add something after you posted the Speri article -> "In late 2024, The Guardian reported a continuing split in the field with "with many keeping to the sidelines·" It's just one field and only in the US so I don't think it's that critical but we could expand it a little, I guess. ] (]) 16:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC) |
I like to check every once in a while this article about this very serious topic, to see what aberration will I find this time. Last time it was an accussation that my country, Romania, was supposedly complicit in a genocide in the Gaza Strip. Now I found that "European Union states" are complicit. The only source for this was an Amnesty International report concluding Israel was committing genocide . It barely discusses complicity by other states, mentioning the word once: "States that continue to transfer arms to Israel are at risk of becoming complicit in genocide". It's not even a direct accussation, it is not elaborated on, it does not appeal to other authors and experts, it is not the focus of the report.
Handing over accussations of complicity in genocide to countries and even cabinets, which carry the names of individuals (WP:BLP), is a pretty serious issue. This is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect to see on an infobox cited with 10 sources. Can we really not put some more effort in such an WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim such as that the United States, the United Kingdom or Germany may be supposedly complicit in genocide in 2024? I am not asking for them to be removed, I am not even tagging the infobox, but I am asking for some professionalism. Stop pointing fingers while empty-handed. This is a highly watched article, put some actual effort in pushing your case, and if you can't, remove it. Super Ψ Dro 01:22, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
There are sources for this. Besides Amnesty International link:
How is it that this alleged "Gaza genocide" can be perpetrated as early as October 7, 2023, the very day Hamas massacred / raped / kidnapped Israeli civilians? Prior to any Israeli military intervention? --Guise (talk) 08:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
There has been many recent changes attempting to minimise the conflict, even the clever wording of the first paragraph that some have tried to amend. Can we please discuss this here before making moves like that to the article? Thanks. Ecpiandy (talk) 02:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)