Revision as of 17:29, 7 March 2024 editAfghan.Records (talk | contribs)193 edits →Henry Wlater as a source?: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Reply← Previous edit |
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{{WikiProject Ethnic groups|importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Afghanistan|importance=top}} |
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{{WikiProject Pakistan|importance=Top|Khyber=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject India|importance=high|uttar=yes|uttar-importance=top}} |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2023 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Pashtuns|answered=yes}} |
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The total number of Pashtuns should be corrected to around 62 Million if we add all the Pashtuns 40+18 million in Pakistan and Afghanistan and around 4 million across the world as mentioned below it in different countries. ] (]) 09:29, 27 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 05:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::Hi I agree with him and for the sources I guess he's just mentionning those numbers + sources already present in the Infobox ] (]) 19:50, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 19:59, 8 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::just that in the "Total population" the figure, which is old (2009), should be updated following the info in "Regions with significant populations", values being more recent (2023), so perhaps this : |
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::| pop = {{circa|'''60 million'''}} |
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::instead of this |
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::| pop = {{circa|'''49 million'''}}<ref name=":1" /> |
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::thanks ] (]) 19:38, 9 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 08:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::hi.. sources are already there the more recent ( 2023 ) data for Pakistan and so on that should just replace the total ( an estimation of 2009, 14 years ago, a lot especially for an ethnic group with such RISING population ).... ] (]) 20:39, 28 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> The reviewer asked for the references to be provided ''on the talk page''. Unless they are provided here, the request does not meet the requirement for SUNS - {{tq|Any edit request must be accompanied by a detailed and specific description of what changes need to be made.}} Needless to say, detailed and specific descriptions are only those which are accompanied by their references <u>in their correct locations</u> (per ]: ''{{tq|"Propose a specific change '''on a talk page'''"}}''). ] 23:35, 31 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 10 December 2023 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Pashtuns|answered=yes}} |
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Change the "Hindu minority" to "Zoroastrian minority" ] (]) 13:01, 10 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 17:15, 11 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Bactrian theory == |
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@HistoryofIran may you please explain why you remived the Bactrian section? As the section was supported by academic sources ] (]) 00:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Afghan.Records}} Regarding , can you provide URLs to the sources for verification, ], etc. {{ping|HistoryofIran}} The 'descent from Kushan' thing is only a passing mention, a one liner - "So that was the end of the Kushan Empire, though their descendants are still the Pashtun and the Kashmiris." The source doesn't delve on it, so I don't think we should use it. - ] (]) 08:50, 31 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Agree, the author has no expertise in this area either, according to the site, she has a doctorate in Classical Art and Archaeology. They're also now edit warring to add non-] to support their POV . I've already made three reverts, I'll just wait for the verdict at ANI . ] (]) 11:40, 31 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Dr. Karen Carr is Associate Professor Emerita, Department of History, Portland State University her having a another degree does not mean she is not qualified. However I respect your objection and I would add new evidence from Andre Wink about it. ] (]) 16:06, 31 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Yes, it does, she's not even a historian, and this isn't exactly her forte either; I'm not gonna link you the rules again. Also, you are still trying to push the pov that the Khalajs are anything but Turkic , something you got blocked for last time. ] (]) 04:40, 1 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::I provide scholar opinions on the subject especially experts such as Wink and Doerfer who is known for his focus on the Khalaj. Also, I have not removed or edited any statements on their turkic origin but rather provided alternative views. For the violations I did last time was because I was unaware of the rules it was one of my first edits. Also, I am not pushing any views Im providing scholarly views, if they don't match with your views don’t make them invalid. I have removed Dr Carr as requested, but I will certainly be adding more information from historians and experts. ] (]) 05:59, 1 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::Unfortunately I don’t have access to the links if I were to provide you with such it can be regarded ar pirating tho im not certain but I recommend you check the available sites I wlcan however send you the pdf for them ] (]) 16:08, 31 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|Afghan.Records}} Please provide the URLs, PDFs, Google Book links, etc for the missing ones if possible. I wouldn't use Carr's source, it is just a passing mention. Besides, it is too big of a claim that Pashtun/Kashmiris are direct descendants of them. Partly descended, possible. - ] (]) 16:57, 31 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Understandable, I will remove Carrs statement. However, I can not provide all the links, I did for some, but some are for purchase. It would be ethically wrong if I do, maybe even illegal not sure. ] (]) 05:49, 1 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 4 January 2024 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Pashtuns|answered=y}} |
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There are 21 Million Pashtuns in Afghanistan in 2023 |
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Here is the source : https://www.worlddata.info/languages/pashto.php ] (]) 13:42, 4 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 21:42, 8 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== Pashtuns in india number exaggerated == |
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There are NOT 3.2 million Pashtuns in india and the source is a verbal arbitrary statement by an individual as the source without any actual fact checking. Please correct this section. ] (]) 13:38, 11 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:Do you have a mire reliable source for it? ] (]) 18:05, 12 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::The Indian official census states a far lower lumber, around 27,000 if I recall correctly. |
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::The currently cited source (a politician with their own agendas) is not reliable in comparison. |
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::However, some people are obsessed with inflating the number of Pashtun living in India. ] (]) 20:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Edits to religion in the infobox == |
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== Bactrian origin == |
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The current religion section in the infobox includes Shias, Sikhs, and Hindus as Pashtun minorities. The supposed Hindu Pashtuns seem to be an isolated group of a few people who live in India, while the Sikh Pashtuns seem to be a few hundred people in Pakistan. Neither of these groups warrant inclusion in the infobox, as including them presents a misleading image of these groups being significant minorities among Pashtuns. You can find small groups of any religion among most ethnic groups. To compare to other groups - Kazakhs have about 40k Christians according to their Wiki page (a much greater proportion compared to the proportions of Sikhs/Hindu Pashtuns), yet their infobox simply says "predominantly Islam" for religion. Tajiks have 2,600 Christians according to their Wiki page, but the religion infobox lists only Sunni and Shia Islam. Uzbeks have 7k Zoroastrians, but the infobox simply lists "predominantly Sunni Islam". |
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Please state your concern about the Bactrian origin if Pashtuns here before disrupting ] (]) 17:57, 12 January 2024 (UTC) |
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That said, these groups are notable enough to remain in the article in the religion section, though not in the infobox. I propose changing the infobox to simply list "predominantly Islam", which covers probably about 99.99% of Pashtuns. ] (]) 15:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== Never edited? == |
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== Sourced material removing reasons == |
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So, it says I reverted edits from the recently blocked Afghan.Records, but I never remember reverting any edits on here. I only remember warning Afghan for edit warring and disrupting peace. If the edit is an incorrect edit, please fix it as I did not do anything, I swear. ] (]) 06:00, 13 January 2024 (UTC) |
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{{ping|Noorullah21}} |
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:Hi, Me being temporarily banned at nothing to do with this page. so can you please refer it to it was before because you have removed crucial information. ] (]) 01:03, 18 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::Ignore the typos ] (]) 01:04, 18 February 2024 (UTC) |
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Dear user, now you express your logical and reasonable reasons regarding the removal of sourced material in the article. Thank you! ] (]) 05:13, 5 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::@Afghan.Records Please explain what you're trying to do here. Your edit (revert) changed a lot of info. ] (]) 01:25, 18 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:@] As I said, any further reverts would see an ANI report against you, which ]. It was up to you to discuss your edits a long time ago per ]. |
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== Scythian and yuezhi == |
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:Britannica is not WP:RS. ] (]) 05:32, 5 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|Noorullah21}} |
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::You shouldn't have done that, you should have discuss, and if I acted against the consensus, then you could have filed a complaint at ANI, not now. Before that I said that I will discuss on the talk page and I came to a more definite conclusion and reach a consensus and until you do not have a better source than Britannica, sources and materials should not be removed. |
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::And I shouldn't stop editing, which is reasonable and legal by your faulty warning (any further reverts would see an ANI report against you). I have the same right to edit as you do and you should not behave like an administrator. Thank you! ] (]) 08:16, 5 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::'''“You shouldn't have done that, you should have discuss, and if I acted against the consensus, then you could have filed a complaint at ANI, not now”''' |
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:::He had every right to revert you and take this to ANI when you didn’t stop edit warring. Per WP:ONUS, the burden is on you to attain consensus. You were supposed to cease from reverting to your preferred edit and take this to the talk page. |
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:::“The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.” |
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:::] |
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:::That means you in this case. Your trying to add content that got disputed by another editor, which means YOU have to build consensus, not Noorullah |
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:::'''“ Before that I said that I will discuss on the talk page and I came to a more definite conclusion and reach a consensus and until you do not have a better source than Britannica, sources and materials should not be removed.'''” |
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:::Respectfully, It doesn’t seem that you have a good grasp on how consensus works. You can’t just declare consensus because you think you’re right. You need to actually build it by discussing with the community. |
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:::So far you’ve been reverted by multiple editors, and nobody has come forward to support your position. That means you are far from reaching consensus. |
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:::For now you need to refrain from reverting and attempt to gain consensus through discussion here in the talk page. ] (]) 09:25, 5 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Kushan not sakas == |
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I think in the paragraph where talk of " scythian" tribe is quoted, it should be made clear that the Strabo meant yuezhis not scythians ( look the main yuezhi article for more info,) ] (]) 12:24, 26 February 2024 (UTC) |
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The description of fall of the greko bactrians are for yuezhi tribes which strapo mistook for sakas. You can furthur read on yuezhi and kushan empire pages. This is an important mistake that should be fixed. ] (]) 15:08, 15 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Henry Wlater as a source? == |
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== Regarding the 1964 identity change == |
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Henry walter is not a reliable source he isn’t even a historian ] (]) 01:15, 7 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:This article per ], presents "all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources". Bellew's theory is a historical position, and other historical positions are mentioned in the article, such as the ] (though highly unlikely). You have been warned and by others, such as ] who astutely noted: "This is hypocrisy. Fair enough that you remove poorly sourced information, but conveniently you only do it with info you don't agree with. You have no issue using poor sources if they fit your POV." Thanks for your understanding, ]<sup>]</sup> 01:50, 7 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::Interestingly my sources from the 21st century about the Bactrian and Sogdians origin of Pashtuns from actual historians were deleted and but a 19th century surgeons view are cherry picked and published as facts. |
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::My sources from Cambridge, Andre Wink, and Oxford university were called poor but Henry Walter is reliable? HistoyofIran has no fave calling me a hypocrite being the person he is and pushes a surgeons view over actual historians. |
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::More edits doesn’t mean a person has more knowledge in the case of HOI more edits more propaganda and false information he has spread. |
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::I have never seen hypocrisy on this level deleting the Bactrian sources from Cambridge History of Iran publishings and Sogdian sources from Oxford publications then saying “Bellew's theory is a historical position” giving it validation and calling me a hypocrite? |
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::For this reason there should be restrictions on this page because its not a grammar fixing page people who actually believe a surgeon is more reliable and historically accurate than modern academics has no right editing a page of a whole ethnic group. ] (]) 03:40, 7 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Okay, this is enough. You've had your ], the fact that you still try to justify your disruptive edits is baffling. For anyone interested, see their previous ANI report . This user is in no position to talk about neutrality. ] (]) 17:01, 7 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Well I am done with you pushing your agenda and bias and bullying inexperienced editors. Pushing Henry walter as a source says enough about your ability to provide proper and unbiased information, coupled with the fact that you conveniently ignore the part that he is a surgeon and to put even more sugar on top you ignore the part where he said Bangash are the descendants of Samanids and push and cherry pick tiny bits of what you like. You know you cant make a good argument so you proceed to accuse me of what you are actually doing. ] (]) 17:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC) |
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Hi all, I was reading the intro section and read this section "They historically were also referred to as Afghans until 1964 after the term's meaning had become a demonym for members of all ethnic groups in Afghanistan" |
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== Pseudo sources == |
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This part seems strange to me. They were Ethnic Afghans in 1963 and lost that identity in 1964? Did no Pashtun outside of Afghanistan call themself Afghan after 1964? |
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Shockingly a lot of the sources in this page are motivated and cherry picked can someone with actual history knowledge take a look at them? The page stinks of propaganda and false narratives ] (]) 15:19, 7 March 2024 (UTC) |
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Are there any other cases of an ethnicities identity changing in the space of a year? ] (]) 12:55, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
The current religion section in the infobox includes Shias, Sikhs, and Hindus as Pashtun minorities. The supposed Hindu Pashtuns seem to be an isolated group of a few people who live in India, while the Sikh Pashtuns seem to be a few hundred people in Pakistan. Neither of these groups warrant inclusion in the infobox, as including them presents a misleading image of these groups being significant minorities among Pashtuns. You can find small groups of any religion among most ethnic groups. To compare to other groups - Kazakhs have about 40k Christians according to their Wiki page (a much greater proportion compared to the proportions of Sikhs/Hindu Pashtuns), yet their infobox simply says "predominantly Islam" for religion. Tajiks have 2,600 Christians according to their Wiki page, but the religion infobox lists only Sunni and Shia Islam. Uzbeks have 7k Zoroastrians, but the infobox simply lists "predominantly Sunni Islam".
That said, these groups are notable enough to remain in the article in the religion section, though not in the infobox. I propose changing the infobox to simply list "predominantly Islam", which covers probably about 99.99% of Pashtuns. PatriarchMacbeth (talk) 15:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
The description of fall of the greko bactrians are for yuezhi tribes which strapo mistook for sakas. You can furthur read on yuezhi and kushan empire pages. This is an important mistake that should be fixed. 178.232.246.100 (talk) 15:08, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
Hi all, I was reading the intro section and read this section "They historically were also referred to as Afghans until 1964 after the term's meaning had become a demonym for members of all ethnic groups in Afghanistan"
This part seems strange to me. They were Ethnic Afghans in 1963 and lost that identity in 1964? Did no Pashtun outside of Afghanistan call themself Afghan after 1964?
Are there any other cases of an ethnicities identity changing in the space of a year? 2A02:C7C:640:9F00:D07A:203:BB7A:F178 (talk) 12:55, 24 December 2024 (UTC)