| Revision as of 16:42, 31 May 2024 editCewbot (talk | contribs)Bots7,689,289 edits Reminder of an inactive anchor: Old Tongue, Remove 1 notification← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 08:39, 8 August 2024 edit undoChiswick Chap (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers297,195 edits →Copyright (IP) Information: general legal disclaimer |
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== DYK??? == |
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== Paragraph about Tengwar script in article about Quenya language == |
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Since Quenya is a good article, couldn't we make a DYK for it? ] (]) 21:00, 4 April 2020 (UTC) |
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An editor has added a paragraph about the Tengwar script. That is ''prima facie'' not relevant to this article which is not about any script but about the Quenya language. The finer details of the IP of Tengwar don't concern readers who have come here to read about the grammar, syntax, vocabulary, and history of the language. I'm minded to remove all or most of the material as irrelevant in this context. ] (]) 17:44, 5 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Language cleanup == |
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== Copyright (IP) Information == |
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Non-English text on English Misplaced Pages, must be tagged as such. See ] and ]. I put effort into this article to bring it up to this standard but did not complete it (, , ), so I added ]. {{ping|User:Chiswick Chap}} the notice. The edit message reproduced here is: |
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Relevant copyright information pertaining to Tolkien's elvish (Quenya and its script Tengwar) has been ]. This copyright information is necessary for Misplaced Pages itself to render the Tengwar language legally within the United States copyright system, due to ]. Misplaced Pages itself is not publicly advertised as an authoritative Tolkien source. I have added this copyright information using ] and additional information related to the language's technical and hobbyist uses. |
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: well tbh it's going to be qya wall-to-wall; if you feel it's worth doing then do it but don't leave it tagged for ever and a day |
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Removing or misrepresenting this information in the context of an encyclopedic article suggests copyright infringement. We would prefer to use the talk page for discussions. ] (]) 17:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC) |
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This leaves little in the way of rationale, and in my view since the problem has clearly not been adressed amounts largely to ]. But it is correct that there will be a lot of tagging, this article has a lot of Quenya text, and it seems prior none of it was tagged. Simply because meeting the standards of accessibility and style might require work or because one user does not care about them, does not mean that this article gets a free pass. ] (]) 10:48, 20 March 2022 (UTC) |
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: All very fine and dandy, but as I said in the thread above, this article is not about Tengwar so you're barking up the wrong tree. |
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:: Um, I explained as clearly as possible in the edit-comment. Since you have brought it here, you are evidently one of the (extremely few) people who think that tagging every single occurrence of Quenya in an article all about it is worth doing, so I repeat my suggestion that you might like to fix the "problem" that you have raised. I don't think it a problem at all: the article is properly tagged in the infobox, and the subject of the article is unambiguously Quenya, so tagging every instance (we don't wikilink every word, now, do we) seems like ridiculous overkill. But hey, let's compromise: you're a busy person: take a month, and if it's still not "fixed", I'll remove the tag then, on the assumption that neither you nor anybody else thinks the task worth doing. All the best, ] (]) 11:58, 20 March 2022 (UTC) |
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: On legal matters, I suspect you are barking up a different wrong tree as Misplaced Pages articles normally steer clear of any legal statements for a range of good reasons, not least (I believe) Wikimedia policy, but that's way above my pay grade. ] (]) 18:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::: Tagging non-English text is required by ] and ]. If you think that this is incorrect, then this is not the appropriate place to voice that concern. Take it up on those pages. This is not comparable with wikilinking since that runs counter to ] while tagging all foreign text is not only in line with ], but required by it. Your personal feelings of what is enough are irrelevant here since there is a clear standard of accessibility that must be met. ] (]) 14:09, 20 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:: If you are going to speak on behalf of Misplaced Pages, please cite Misplaced Pages's own site policy. The sources used for the information your are trying to have removed are the Unicode Consortium and Tolkien Estate/Middle Earth Enterprises. These are the most direct secondary sources (legal entities) referring to the primary source (Tolkien's writing). Misplaced Pages ]: |
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:::: You're hardly making the page more accessible by "welcoming" all visitors for the next decade with your introductory mega-tag. Bye, I've had enough of this time-wasting. ] (]) 14:22, 20 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::<blockquote>Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to an original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors.</blockquote> |
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::In short, you appear to be in violation of Wikpedia's policies. ] (]) 18:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::: I haven't remotely violated anything, I'm discussing what to do with you, and if that doesn't yield a consensus, I'll seek advice elsewhere. Nor am I trying to remove sources, I'm seeking to understand why you want to talk about subject B (Tengwar) on subject A (Quenya)'s article, and I'm doubting whether legal notices should go in articles at all, as it's simply not our business as an encyclopedia. If we need to remove anything, it won't be sources, it'll be entire sentences (text +source). ] (]) 19:03, 5 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::: The page being welcoming is hardly a concern, we don't remove ] because it is unfriendly, we remove it because the issue is resolved. The page has an issue. You and anyone else are free to ignore the notice, but as long as the issue persists it should be categorized as such. ] (]) 14:38, 20 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:::: I don't think you understand what Tengwar is. ] (]) 19:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::I usually agree. I myself have spent a lot of time tagging Welsh language in English Misplaced Pages articles because it helps text-to-voice software to correctly pronounce words for those who are visually impaired. However, will a text-to-voice reader be able to correctly pronounce Quenya? It is, after all, a conlang with no real-world speakers. – ] (]) 11:11, 23 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::::: Tengwar is a script, Quenya is a language. Any language including English can be written in Tengwar; the script is not the subject of this article, so your additions are off-topic. ] (]) 19:16, 5 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::: Screen readers, although very important to consider, are not the only consideration for language tagging. You can see more at ]. However really this isn't the place to discuss this. If you feel that conlangs or languages with few speakers should be exempt from this accessibility guideline the appropriate place to take that up is really on ]. ] (]) 13:59, 23 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:] or ]? It's not that Latin alphabet is native to the language, although it may be the most frequent. --] (]) 17:02, 22 November 2022 (UTC) |
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:Are you aware that an article ] exists? ] (]) 05:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:: That is getting terribly academic, and if you read the above you'll see what I think of the templates anyway. Tolkien wrote Quenya in more than one alphabet. Feel free to tweak the templates as you please. ] (]) 17:21, 22 November 2022 (UTC) |
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By the way, ], so we don't need to put disclaimers into articles, or they'd all be full of such things. ] (]) 08:00, 6 August 2024 (UTC) |
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: I'd be inclined to remove the whole paragraph, but since that copyright statements, especially if as it looks there is some ] involved, are not appropriate, I've removed the copyright statements only, noting that all Tolkien's works are in copyright and we certainly aren't going to clutter hundreds of articles with such things. Indeed, all of Misplaced Pages's thousands of articles on living authors and their books would have similar clutter, and we do not put legal warnings or copyright notices into those either, as editors have agreed since the foundation of Misplaced Pages. As already stated, Misplaced Pages ], so it is unnecessary and inappropriate, indeed potentially dangerously misleading, to include any further statements in articles that might be taken as any kind of variation from Misplaced Pages's stated position. ] (]) 08:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Stress == |
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The section talking about stress is very short and contains no examples. Seeing as this section closes by stating that syllable weight is important in Quenya verse, I think this needs to be addressed (with citations where possible). – ] (]) 11:05, 23 March 2022 (UTC) |
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== IPA for 'Quenya' correct? == |
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I'm wondering if the IPA for the word ''Quenya'' is actually correct. Does {{angle bracket|qu}} represent /kʷ/ or /kʷw/? After all, isn't the same as nor is it a with a off-glide, it's a with rounded lips. – ] (]) 12:29, 23 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:Tolkien doesn’t use IPA, so the matter is a bit complicated but in ''Parma Eldalamberon 22'', p. 66 he tells us: “''q'' (''kw'') consists of a lip-rounded ''k̊'' followed by a partly unvoiced ''w''-offglide (more marked medially than initially)” (the ring above ''k'' might be Tolkien’s way to represent roundness, I doubt its the devoicing diacritic the IPA uses). In IPA that would be something like , but I really wouldn’t be that narrow. (This quote is from the text ''Qenya Spelling'' from the late 1930s, but many of the ideas also survive in later concepts) ] (]) 11:50, 21 June 2022 (UTC) |
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::So are we saying that /kʷw/ would be a more accurate IPA rendering of Tolkien's description than simply /kʷ/? – ] (]) 11:18, 25 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:::I’m saying that the realization is but I don’t think there is a problem with assuming it’s underlying /kʷ/ (see ] if you aren’t familiar with the difference) For one that’s the analysis inherent to the Tengwar distinction of the ''calma-'' and ''quessetéma''. I think there is a note somewhere in PE19 (I can’t find it right now) that long vowels are permitted before ''kw, ty'' (but before other consonants they are not). having aid that, analyzing it as /kw/ should work as well. ] (]) 12:15, 25 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:::: And what about the ? The problem I see here is that I'm pretty sure Tolkien describes {{angle bracket|ny}} as (maybe ) rather than , in which case surely the syllable break cannot conceivably be between the and ? – ] (]) 05:11, 26 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::For the introduction I would suggest |
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:::::* '''QU''' “consists of a lip-rounded ''k̊'' followed by a partly unvoiced ''w''-offglide (more marked medially than initially)” I‘d read that as implying “initially less marked but still existing”, so I would keep the separate ''w'' but including the ”partly unvoiced” is probably a too narrow transcription for the intro. |
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:::::* '''E''' as . AppE has “were”, RP , but it’s consensus that this is not the sound Tolkien meant to describe, such a vowel system could hardly be described being “of normal kind”, perhaps RGEO contains a better example. |
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:::::* '''NY''' as per “''n'' in ''ny'' is palatal ''n'' but followed (cf. ''ty'') by a ''y''-offglide, more marked medially (where ''ny'' counts as a group), less so initially.” or per “In ''ñy'' ''ñ'' was not lost, but as in the other similar groups became dentalized. Thus ''ŋy > ny'' (with a sound as in English ''new'' ])” . Since the former is the clearer statement, I’d prefer it here. In the second quote, perhaps Tolkien used “dental” just as “fronted compared to velar” and it’s still realized as a palatal? As for the syllable break, the cluster is probably ambisyllabic to some extent, so I would just not opine on the question. |
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:::::* '''A''' as “father”: RP , but this is perhaps not a reliable way to tell the exact quality of Quenya, that’s just the one ''a'' that English has to describe a five vowel system. Personally, I think Quenya ''a'' is unmarked for backness, but I don’t think thats written anywhere we could cite (unless Misplaced Pages accepts ). |
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:::::] (]) 14:21, 26 August 2022 (UTC) |
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Relevant copyright information pertaining to Tolkien's elvish (Quenya and its script Tengwar) has been cited with reliable sources. This copyright information is necessary for Misplaced Pages itself to render the Tengwar language legally within the United States copyright system, due to Misplaced Pages's own copyright policy. Misplaced Pages itself is not publicly advertised as an authoritative Tolkien source. I have added this copyright information using an encyclopedic tone appropriate for this article and additional information related to the language's technical and hobbyist uses.
Removing or misrepresenting this information in the context of an encyclopedic article suggests copyright infringement. We would prefer to use the talk page for discussions. Jellocube (talk) 17:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
