| Revision as of 18:29, 14 April 2005 editKillerChihuahua (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users34,578 edits →Removed some names← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 05:44, 16 February 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,013,282 edits Implementing WP:PIQA (Task 26)Tag: Talk banner shell conversion | ||
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| ==Links== | |||
| {{Article History | |||
| *''Past discussion of this article has been moved to ].'' | |||
| |action1=PR | |||
| *''People who have been rejected for inclusion in the list can be found ].'' | |||
| |action1date=20:22:10 25 June 2008 (UTC) | |||
| |action1link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Lists of atheists/archive1 | |||
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| }} | |||
| {{WikiProject banner shell|class=List| | |||
| {{WikiProject Lists}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Atheism|importance=High}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Skepticism|importance=mid}} | |||
| }} | |||
| {{Consensus | |||
| |]: | |||
| Names that have been investigated and rejected for inclusion are compiled at ]. Please review the reasons for exclusion, find reliable sources and/or discuss before restoring these names to the list. | |||
| ==Inclusion standards== | |||
| }} | |||
| Who should be on the list of atheists? | |||
| {{Archive box|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III |age=90}} | |||
| So far the ones discussing the subject have agreed on: | |||
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| == Why this list without lists for other beliefs regarding deity? This list is weird concept. == | |||
| *People who have influenced the history of atheism or advanced/influenced atheist thought in a significant way (first section). | |||
| *Notable people (deserving of a Misplaced Pages article) who have atheism as a relevant part of their life, work, etc. (second section). | |||
| Finding this list is flabbergasting! How about lists of christians by denomination or sect, a list of muslims by denomination or sect, etc.? This list really is making me question my ongoing financial support for Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 14:40, 21 November 2010 (UTC) Ivan Soto ] (]) 14:40, 21 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| The first section includes not only activists but e.g. philosophers who constructed godless/humanist theories of ethics (their work contributes to atheism because it demonstrates the possibility of ethics without belief in God). | |||
| :What is your question about ]? Or ]? ] (]) 15:19, 21 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::See also the large religion section in ]. This list is far from anomalous. Not every article on Misplaced Pages needs to be of interest to every reader--even those that contribute money to the project. ] (]) 22:46, 21 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::Ivan....What a strange complaint! -] (]) 02:27, 11 January 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == What is this? == | |||
| The second section is trickier, but we believe that simply including famous people is useless. If you need to dig out endlessly into interviews and public appearances of someone to find one instance of professing or implying atheism, then that person doesn't belong in here. | |||
| Is this some kind of death list that is being maintained by christian extremists? I'm wondering at this point if the FBI needs to be made aware. American christians extremists, especially here in The Christian Republic of Texastan are all over the internet saying they have plans for a genocidal civil war in America, non-believers are leading their target list everywhere. This makes the question relevant. ] (]) 08:29, 21 October 2015 (UTC) | |||
| There could be advantages in dividing the list further. The temp list below is divided by time (pre-modern, modern (up to 19th cent.) and contemporary (20th cent. onwards)). | |||
| == ] == | |||
| --] 12:56, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
| There is an ] on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infoboxes of individuals that have no religion. | |||
| ==How to divide the list== | |||
| As of today, we have "Notables" and "Others", each one divided into "Contemporary", "Modern" and "Pre-modern". | |||
| The RfC is at ''']'''. | |||
| Another possible division would be | |||
| *activists/reformers | |||
| *philosophers/scientists | |||
| *writers/poets/filmmakers | |||
| *entertainers/presenters/actors/celebrities et al. | |||
| Please help us determine ] on this issue. --] (]) 18:46, 21 April 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ] comments: | |||
| What is the distinction being drawn here? | |||
| :With the 'People who have influenced the history of atheism' section, you might try listing chronologically by date-of-birth, rather than alphabetically. In a way it helps illustrate the development of ideas... | |||
| ''Atheism is, in a broad sense, the lack of belief in the existence of deities. | |||
| :I would caution against deletion of celebrity atheists ''just'' because they are celebrities. ... On the other hand, there isn't much wrong with deleting entries and asking anyone who restores them to justify the restore. | |||
| In a narrower sense, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. '' | |||
| I cannot parse that out to find a difference. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:49, 11 April 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ::Currently, the division between "notable" and "other" atheists seems pretty arbitrary. Why, for instance, are ], ] and ] not listed under "notable atheists"? They were certainly notable people who were atheists. The justification seems to be some sort of division between people who made a big deal of their atheism versus those who didn't, without any objective criteria for such a division. In my opinion, this needs to be reworked, perhaps listing them instead based on their professions (compare for example ] and ]). — ] | ] 23:42, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Several faux godless listed. == | |||
| ==Agnostics== | |||
| Many people qualified themselves as agnostics because it was politically or physically dangerous to be outright atheists (Susan B. Anthony); others were philosophically agnostic but atheists in practice (cf Bertrand Russell). We need to adress this. I'd vote for inclusiveness, but there must be a way to avoid letting in the most dubious "presumed atheists". --] 01:08, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
| I just spent a few days researching all names listed. A significant number of people listed as Atheists were either never atheists or were so only at one point in their lives. Grasping for straws here. Shaw and Shelley both had their own brand of belief in a sort of Deity. It's as if anyone who rejects a jewish, muslim, or chistian god is called an atheist. Pathetic. ] (]) 02:34, 29 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :Not sure how we could address this issue. If we are certain they were truly atheists and have a certain degree of proof about it, they should be included. However, the fact that they were seen as agnostics back in their time may be a sign that they weren't all that influential in the first place (??). --] | |||
| == "]" listed at ] == | |||
| ] | |||
| ::Not really. In fact, they may have been too influential/popular. That's why I mentioned Susan B. Anthony -- she was probably an atheist but kept more or less quiet about it since it would have damaged her reputation in other causes that she deemed prioritary (like women's suffrage). --] 12:52, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
| The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 5#List of atheists, agnostics and other nontheists}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 20:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::PS Should we include a brief definition of what an atheist is, weak vs. strong, etc.? | |||
| :::No, I don't think so. It's not the purpose of the article. However, it would be useful to just point to ] and state that an explanation is available there. --] 21:27, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Deletions== | |||
| I've moved the rejected items to a ] subpage, as per the suggestion of ]. I'm also cleaning up some discussion here and summarizing it (hope you don't mind). | |||
| *When you delete someone from the main list or from the Dubious list, place him/her in the ] subpage and note the reason next to it. | |||
| *If you move an item in the ] (as in the case of George Carlin being moved from Others to Notable), make a note in this Talk page (under a new heading). | |||
| *If you check someone's bio in the Dubious list, note what you found next to it, and your opinion. Strike it out if it looks rejectable, then wait and see if anybody objects. If it looks absolutely rejectable from the start, move it directly to ]. | |||
| *For the sake or orderliness, let's place new comment topics under new headings. The top of this page should always be the summary of the inclusion standards. Makes the page easier to edit, too. | |||
| Pablo, it seems as through an unregistered user has deleted a few entries. I would have gone ahead and reverted it, but you did the research on these people, so I think it should be up to you. Took a quick look at Einstein, he seems to be ambiguous. For the others, I don't know. What do you think? --] 04:02, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :For Susan B. Anthony I found . She is one of those people that may or may not be in the list, since there's no explicit profession of atheism, but everything points that way. In any case, I'm reverting. The unregistered user didn't offer a reason (as stated in the consensus policy) and didn't even offer a short explanation in the edit summary. | |||
| :As for Einstein: definitely not a theist, maybe (and that's a big maybe) a pantheist, but it seems clear that "God" was more like a synonym for "the laws of the universe". Cf Stephen Hawking's "mind of God". Again, no reason given, so it'll be reverted. --] 10:56, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Unless the people in the dubious list are being checked, I'll begin striking off those who seem less convincing. And a couple weeks from now, struck-off items will be moved to Rejected. --] 12:02, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ===Einstein (again)=== | |||
| If you're thinking of deleting Einstein from the list, please ''please'' post a convincing reason here. Do not just delete him with a short comment on the edit summary. I'm reverting the last deletion now. Einstein said he did not believe in a personal God (that rules out deism, and theism for the most part), or prayer, or personal immortality, or anything supernatural besides cause and effect. --] 01:51, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :Misplaced Pages's article says he is a pantheist. Is that convincing enough for you? ] 02:08, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :In case it isn't, here is a key quote. | |||
| ::''But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. '' | |||
| :While there are a lot of other Einstein quotes indicating his rejection of traditional theistic belief, and of a personal God, you mustn't always assume that means atheism. Sometimes people's beliefs are hard to pin down. ] 02:23, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :As I on one occasion deleted Einstein, I guess I should say something here. It is true that Einstein empathetically rejected having faith in a personal god (and I would like to note that this does *not* contradict deism, per wikipedia and other sources such as dictionary.com), I believe it was on the same occasion that he described his positive belief in some entity he labelled god. I don't have the exact quote, but it should be easy to find, and runs something like "My god is the god of Spinoza", making him a modern pantheist. I think these are reasons sufficient to at least make it very doubtful that he was an atheist, which is not compatible with belief in ANY god. --] 22:15, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ===]=== | |||
| As mentioned on the ] | |||
| :''Removed Stephen Hawking - although many people imagine he must be an atheist, publicly he is deliberately equivocal on the point. When pressed he has said 'I don't believe in a personal God', but he can believe in a God as the embodiment of the laws of physics. - ] 16:41, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)'' | |||
| Hawking is most likely a deist, so removed again. -- ] 08:20, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::I read in Vanity Fair that Hawking was an Atheist-I'm the one who added him in April 2005. I thought that qualified as evidence. Seriously, is there any evidence to the contrary? -- ] 05:43, 7 Apr 2005 | |||
| :::The 2004 Vanity Fair article was pretty good. I don't recall what it had to say on Hawking being an atheist, but I may still have the article around somewhere. The general view that Hawking is a deist, with several quotes and references can be found on the . -- ] 21:02, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Dubious or in the process of checking== | |||
| *] (1706-1775) - British printer, openly atheist, requested to be buried in unconsecrated ground. | |||
| **''His last request is about the only thing worth mentioning? -PDF'' | |||
| *] - American Pulitzer Prize-winning editorial cartoonist, grandson of former U. S. Secretary of Agriculture and ] prophet Ezra Taft Benson. | |||
| **''This guy denounced the Church for covering up his grandfather's senility, then became an atheist. <strike>Not really important IMHO.</strike> On second thought, he may deserve a small place in the Others section... -PDF'' | |||
| *] - British ] poet | |||
| **''Undoubtedly notable, but is there something else besides a scandalous life? - Anybody? '' | |||
| *] (1970-) - American progressive feminist singer, guitarist, and songwriter. | |||
| **''Very interesting person indeed, yet her atheism should be confirmed. Do her lyrics mention it?'' | |||
| *] (1932-) - American ], more known by his book ''The Population Bomb'', and a founder of the ] group. | |||
| **''Yet another unconfirmed.'' | |||
| *] (1888-1935) - (Lawrence of Arabia), British guerilla ] and ] | |||
| **''No idea about this.'' | |||
| *] - American author of fantasy and horror fiction | |||
| **''Confirm this. The article says he had mystic beliefs, though it might mean he was *interested* in mystic beliefs (anthropologically).'' | |||
| *] - AI researcher and inventor of ]^ | |||
| **''Looks important, but not relevant. Quotes suggest a skeptic. Apparently a talkative guy, yet didn't say much on atheism.'' | |||
| *] (1923-) - Canadian medical doctor and ] rights activist. Founder of ]. | |||
| *] (1903-) - financier and art collector, his preference of wealth over spirituality estranges him from his son, who wrote a book on the need for spirituality in his life and rediscovering Judaism. | |||
| **''Interviews? Anything on the record? At best an "Others".'' | |||
| **''Found that some of his lyrics may be influenced by or discuss religion. I'm not familiar with his stuff, though, so I'm not sure to what extent. | |||
| *] - American actor, director, and writer | |||
| **''Confirm atheism. Seems like many people were included in this list only because they were non-Republican or not willing to thank God in public at every opportunity...'' | |||
| *] (1921-1991) - American TV writer, producer, creator of '']''. | |||
| **''Isolated sentence in bio: "He was a secular humanist". ST fans needed to find traces of nonbelief in the series and movies.'' | |||
| *] - ]n ]. | |||
| **''Confirm, especially literary themes.'' | |||
| *] - American author | |||
| **''Needs confirmation.'' | |||
| *] - author and ] | |||
| **''Nothing about atheism or religion in her bio. Writing topics?'' | |||
| **Sould be noted that she is doing double time at ], atheism a major theme in many of her works, this seems to confirm it. | |||
| *] (1946-) - British writer, author of the '']'' fantasy trilogy, seen by many as a rebuttal to ] Cristian alegory ''Narnia''. | |||
| **''Very likely candidate for "notable", if anyone can confirm his atheism. Imagine writing an anti-Christian children's book and turning it into a bestseller!'' | |||
| ==Unchecked so far== | |||
| *] - French writer and philosopher | |||
| *] - British author and journalist | |||
| **Probably was an atheist but very few quotes to prove it and his writings suggests he was attached to the traditions of religion rather then the beliefs. Not particularly notable for his views on the subject. | |||
| *](1885-1962) - Danish physicst who calculated the energy levels of Hydrogen and came up with the Bohr model of the atom. | |||
| *] - I, ], have found several citations on the internet indicating his atheism, but have not yet verified. I intend to do some research at the university library on him tomorrow (and hopefully settle the question), but if someone wants to check this out before me I certainly wouldn't object. In any case, I added him to the list tenatively. So if you find otherwise, remove him. | |||
| ==References== | |||
| You can find source information on several of these people on the ] talk page and its archive... oh right, that's here. ] for example already has several references. | |||
| ] would be worth some further investigation. He was excommunicated by the Catholic Church, in part for being an atheist (although this may be referring to his masonic connections, and it may have been politically motivated). As a founding farther of several Latin American states, he is potentially very notable as a counter to the history of the Conquistadors under the Catholic Church. -- ] 18:40, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :The net is awfully lacking in this respect. All I've found is rumors. Some say he was a mason, others say he was an atheist, most say he was accused of being an atheist by the Catholic Church (politically motivated as you say), and some Catholic revisionists say he was a devout church-going guy. I'm inclined to believe he was indeed a mason, which would put him in line with others at the time (cf ], Argentina/Chile/Peru Libertador). I find it extremely unlikely to believe that he was a mason ''and'' a covert atheist --] 14:02, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::I know what you mean. One of the better online references for this one in terms of credibility is , but it doesn't really say why or give details on any of the people mentioned. It might take a book to resolve it. -- ] 23:40, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::My thoughts on this are that if the net is ambiguous on the topic, or there is insufficient information, he should be scratched off. A person like this would only be considered again if someone could provide sufficient information to back a claim of atheism or whatnot. --] 21:19, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Removed some names== | |||
| Here are some names I removed, and why: | |||
| *] - Misplaced Pages's own article describes him as a pantheist. | |||
| *] - he wrote an article "Why I am an agnostic", which you can find . | |||
| ] 02:07, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :Albert Einstein was an atheist, not a pantheist, according to Albert Einstein: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." (1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press) | |||
| :Clarence Darrow was an ], not an ]. There's no such thing as simply "agnostic". | |||
| :] 19:03, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC) | |||
| I removed | |||
| *] (1833-1899) - American politician and lecturer. | |||
| Known as "The Great Agnostic" during (and after) his lifetime, he was clearly, by his own frequent statements, agnostic not atheistic. An argument could be made for his being more deist or pantheist in outlook, but agnostic he was not. | |||
| --] 18:29, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Gene Roddenberry== | |||
| Some quotes purportedly authored by Roddenberry: | |||
| "I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain." | |||
| "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." | |||
| :] 19:03, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Note that these do not establish Roddenberry's atheism, just his healthy distaste for the more extreme outcroppings of theism. Criticizing religion and denying an "all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans" (assuming he made these quotes, of course) would still only establish him as a strong skeptic. ] 02:45, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC) | |||
| ==Other== | |||
| I have removed the request for attention to this page, as I think it has sufficiently improved for the moment and is no longer in need of major cleanup. If anyone disagrees with this, please protest here. --] 21:11, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Deletion David Hume== | |||
| I removed David Hume because, at least from what I've read, even though he was skeptic of miracles, the argument from design did make sense to him. Further reading on this, can be found at http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ515.HTM and http://www.vision-uk.org/jrnl/0001/bvdhume.html - ] 06:03, 27 Mar 2005 | |||
| :This has been discussed before, although now it has been side-lined to the ] page. I would say the ~erasmus site has no credibility at all. -- ] 06:21, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::I apologize, it seems Hume did shatter the Argument from Design. However, although some would say the logical outcome of his skepticism would be atheism, it still isn't quite clear to me whether he was one. Some online essays cite him as rather a Deist, but after reading how pragmatic he was, I'm more inclined to think he was indeed an atheist who would keep it to himself just to avoid troubles with the authorities of the time. | |||
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Why this list without lists for other beliefs regarding deity? This list is weird concept.
Finding this list is flabbergasting! How about lists of christians by denomination or sect, a list of muslims by denomination or sect, etc.? This list really is making me question my ongoing financial support for Misplaced Pages. Ivan-Soto (talk) 14:40, 21 November 2010 (UTC) Ivan Soto Ivan-Soto (talk) 14:40, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
- What is your question about Lists of Christians#By denomination? Or Lists of Muslims? Dougweller (talk) 15:19, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
- See also the large religion section in Lists of people by belief. This list is far from anomalous. Not every article on Misplaced Pages needs to be of interest to every reader--even those that contribute money to the project. Nick Graves (talk) 22:46, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
- Ivan....What a strange complaint! -Xcuref1endx (talk) 02:27, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
What is this?
Is this some kind of death list that is being maintained by christian extremists? I'm wondering at this point if the FBI needs to be made aware. American christians extremists, especially here in The Christian Republic of Texastan are all over the internet saying they have plans for a genocidal civil war in America, non-believers are leading their target list everywhere. This makes the question relevant. 69.49.217.158 (talk) 08:29, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Request for Comments
There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infoboxes of individuals that have no religion.
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:46, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
What is the distinction being drawn here? Atheism is, in a broad sense, the lack of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
I cannot parse that out to find a difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.240.226 (talk) 16:49, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Several faux godless listed.
I just spent a few days researching all names listed. A significant number of people listed as Atheists were either never atheists or were so only at one point in their lives. Grasping for straws here. Shaw and Shelley both had their own brand of belief in a sort of Deity. It's as if anyone who rejects a jewish, muslim, or chistian god is called an atheist. Pathetic. 2601:155:8300:6B20:C1C0:8465:4FF0:F75 (talk) 02:34, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
"List of atheists, agnostics and other nontheists" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect List of atheists, agnostics and other nontheists has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 5 § List of atheists, agnostics and other nontheists until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 20:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)