Revision as of 19:09, 10 July 2024 edit50.4.146.44 (talk) →Swarthy: new sectionTags: Reverted Mobile edit Mobile web edit New topic← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 13:44, 10 January 2025 edit undoGuise (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,440 edits →Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 January 2025 | ||
(42 intermediate revisions by 24 users not shown) | |||
Line 45: | Line 45: | ||
|otd16date=2024-05-30|otd16oldid=1226328197 | |otd16date=2024-05-30|otd16oldid=1226328197 | ||
}} | }} | ||
{{WikiProject banner shell |
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=FA|vital=yes|listas=Joan Of Arc|blp=n|1= | ||
{{WikiProject Biography|military-work-group=y|military-priority=mid|core=yes}} | {{WikiProject Biography|military-work-group=y|military-priority=mid|core=yes}} | ||
{{WikiProject Christianity|history=yes|history-importance=mid|importance=high|catholicism=yes|catholicism-importance=Top|saints=yes|saints-importance=Top}} | {{WikiProject Christianity|history=yes|history-importance=mid|importance=high|catholicism=yes|catholicism-importance=Top|saints=yes|saints-importance=Top}} | ||
Line 53: | Line 53: | ||
{{WikiProject Middle Ages|importance=High}} | {{WikiProject Middle Ages|importance=High}} | ||
{{WikiProject France|importance=top}} | {{WikiProject France|importance=top}} | ||
{{WikiProject Gender |
{{WikiProject Gender studies|importance=high}} | ||
{{WikiProject Women in Religion|importance=high}} | {{WikiProject Women in Religion|importance=high}} | ||
}} | }} | ||
Line 73: | Line 73: | ||
}} | }} | ||
== Didn't she refer to herself as Jehanne? == | |||
== Mixing time-lines? Jehanne v Arc == | |||
In the page it says that she refers to herself as "Jeanne," but isn't this the standardized version of her name? You even have her signature in the page "Jehanne" ] (]) 12:40, 20 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
First to note is how her name is spelled. You see other versions than Jehanne while D'Arc is used. No problem, it's history. I'm just saying it should be noted somewhere about how those two overlap (and maybe why). I consider this bit inconsistent. It probably is D'Arc, according to hand script, and the time-line probably started at the naming of Du Lys. There is concern -- hand script. I know what it says, but I know the brits won't settle on it, too. Otherwise, good work, above! ] (]) 12:38, 28 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Have you seen all the different ways Shakespeare signed his name? More or less, orthography in every European language before 1800 was sporadically standardized at best. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 12:43, 20 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Swarthy == | |||
== Does the lede need to be so long? == | |||
She and her brothers were described as swarthy and marked as a blood horse in features. ] (]) 19:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
This article has a gold star, but I have no idea why so much biographical detail is needed in the summary of a ]. I am not going to attempt to edit it but as someone familiar with being concise I think it can be trimmed down to give a snapshot of her, without being so long. ] (]) 21:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
: ''she requested to be taken to Charles VII, later testifying that she was guided by visions from the archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine to help him save France from English domination. Convinced of her devotion and purity, Charles sent Joan, who was about seventeen years old, to the siege of Orléans as part of a relief army. She arrived at the city in April 1429, wielding her banner and bringing hope to the demoralized French army. Nine days after her arrival, the English abandoned the siege. Joan encouraged the French to aggressively pursue the English during the Loire Campaign, which culminated in another decisive victory at Patay, opening the way for the French army to advance on Reims unopposed, where Charles was crowned as the King of France with Joan at his side. These victories boosted French morale, paving the way for their final triumph in the Hundred Years' War several decades later.''Why all of this detail in a summary? <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 21:08, 22 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:It's four full-ish paragraphs, which is roughly what we aim for. The passage you posted is a pretty memorable narrative arc in her life. If I were to pick an FA to rag on its lead, it wouldn't be this one. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff"> ‥ </span>]</span> 22:03, 22 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Canonization rationale == | |||
The page states that, | |||
"Joan was canonized as a Virgin, not as a Christian martyr" | |||
Whatever the first sources says, the second source, which is the more important, Saint Benedict XV's papal bull, | |||
DIVINA DISPONENTE* | |||
BEATA IOANNA DE ARC, VIRGO, | |||
IN SANCTORUM CAELITUM ALBUM REFERTUR | |||
recognizes her virginity but does not state that as the reason for her canonization. Instead, the document catalogs her life and actions and affirms her motives as consistent with divine inspiration and that her life was devoted to God. | |||
The claim of this sentence, thereby is inaccurate and should be either deleted or modified. Refer, instead to the opening paragraph of the Papal bull, | |||
"coram hominibus definitive sanciehant eius innocentiam, fidem, sanctitatem et obedientiam mandatis Dei, ad quae observanda omnia sustinuit usque ad diram et iniustam mortem." | |||
which translates, | |||
"definitively established before men her innocence, faith, holiness, and obedience to the commandments of God, for which she endured all things to the point of a terrible and unjust death." | |||
She was canonized for being holy, faithful, obedient, and a martyr. ] (]) 00:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:This sentence was carefully worked out during the FAR. The sentence does not refer to the primary source (see ]). As is appropriate for Misplaced Pages, it uses secondary source the complex, detailed context of Joan's canonization-including the wording of the bull itself for readers, particularly the misconception that she was canonized as a martyr. The sources clarify why the opening of the bull declares Joan ''virgo'' and not the ''virgo et martyr''. As the article and secondary sources point out, it is a fine point. ] (]) 16:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 January 2025 == | |||
{{Edit extended-protected|Joan of Arc|answered=yes}} | |||
The page doesn't contain the date of birth, which is January 06th. ] (]) 21:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:What's your source? Thanks. ] (]) 21:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:EEp --> – ] <sup>(] | ])</sup> 13:28, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::As the , medievalists do not endorse Perceval de Boulainvilliers' assertion about Joan of Arc's date of birth. Instead, they emphasize the symbolic value of this Epiphany, analogous to the “birth of a savior for the kingdom”. --] (]) 13:44, 10 January 2025 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 13:44, 10 January 2025
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Joan of Arc article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15Auto-archiving period: 2 months |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Joan of Arc is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 16, 2006. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This level-3 vital article is rated FA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Didn't she refer to herself as Jehanne?
In the page it says that she refers to herself as "Jeanne," but isn't this the standardized version of her name? You even have her signature in the page "Jehanne" Tisthefirstletter (talk) 12:40, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- Have you seen all the different ways Shakespeare signed his name? More or less, orthography in every European language before 1800 was sporadically standardized at best. Remsense ‥ 论 12:43, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Does the lede need to be so long?
This article has a gold star, but I have no idea why so much biographical detail is needed in the summary of a WP:LEDE. I am not going to attempt to edit it but as someone familiar with being concise I think it can be trimmed down to give a snapshot of her, without being so long. Hausa warrior (talk) 21:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- she requested to be taken to Charles VII, later testifying that she was guided by visions from the archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine to help him save France from English domination. Convinced of her devotion and purity, Charles sent Joan, who was about seventeen years old, to the siege of Orléans as part of a relief army. She arrived at the city in April 1429, wielding her banner and bringing hope to the demoralized French army. Nine days after her arrival, the English abandoned the siege. Joan encouraged the French to aggressively pursue the English during the Loire Campaign, which culminated in another decisive victory at Patay, opening the way for the French army to advance on Reims unopposed, where Charles was crowned as the King of France with Joan at his side. These victories boosted French morale, paving the way for their final triumph in the Hundred Years' War several decades later.Why all of this detail in a summary? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hausa warrior (talk • contribs) 21:08, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's four full-ish paragraphs, which is roughly what we aim for. The passage you posted is a pretty memorable narrative arc in her life. If I were to pick an FA to rag on its lead, it wouldn't be this one. Remsense ‥ 论 22:03, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Canonization rationale
The page states that,
"Joan was canonized as a Virgin, not as a Christian martyr"
Whatever the first sources says, the second source, which is the more important, Saint Benedict XV's papal bull,
DIVINA DISPONENTE* BEATA IOANNA DE ARC, VIRGO, IN SANCTORUM CAELITUM ALBUM REFERTUR
recognizes her virginity but does not state that as the reason for her canonization. Instead, the document catalogs her life and actions and affirms her motives as consistent with divine inspiration and that her life was devoted to God.
The claim of this sentence, thereby is inaccurate and should be either deleted or modified. Refer, instead to the opening paragraph of the Papal bull,
"coram hominibus definitive sanciehant eius innocentiam, fidem, sanctitatem et obedientiam mandatis Dei, ad quae observanda omnia sustinuit usque ad diram et iniustam mortem."
which translates,
"definitively established before men her innocence, faith, holiness, and obedience to the commandments of God, for which she endured all things to the point of a terrible and unjust death."
She was canonized for being holy, faithful, obedient, and a martyr. Nicollo (talk) 00:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
- This sentence was carefully worked out during the FAR. The sentence does not refer to the primary source (see WP:PRIMARYCARE). As is appropriate for Misplaced Pages, it uses secondary source the complex, detailed context of Joan's canonization-including the wording of the bull itself for readers, particularly the misconception that she was canonized as a martyr. The sources clarify why the opening of the bull declares Joan virgo and not the virgo et martyr. As the article and secondary sources point out, it is a fine point. Wtfiv (talk) 16:38, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 January 2025
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The page doesn't contain the date of birth, which is January 06th. Saturnsbluebird (talk) 21:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- What's your source? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – macaddct1984 13:28, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- As the French article points out, medievalists do not endorse Perceval de Boulainvilliers' assertion about Joan of Arc's date of birth. Instead, they emphasize the symbolic value of this Epiphany, analogous to the “birth of a savior for the kingdom”. --Guise (talk) 13:44, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages articles that use American English
- Misplaced Pages featured articles
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
- Old requests for peer review
- FA-Class level-3 vital articles
- Misplaced Pages level-3 vital articles in People
- FA-Class vital articles in People
- FA-Class biography articles
- FA-Class biography (military) articles
- Mid-importance biography (military) articles
- Military biography work group articles
- FA-Class biography (core) articles
- Core biography articles
- Top-importance biography articles
- WikiProject Biography articles
- FA-Class Christianity articles
- High-importance Christianity articles
- FA-Class Christian History articles
- Mid-importance Christian History articles
- Christian History articles
- FA-Class Saints articles
- Top-importance Saints articles
- WikiProject Saints articles
- FA-Class Catholicism articles
- Top-importance Catholicism articles
- WikiProject Catholicism articles
- WikiProject Christianity articles
- FA-Class Religion articles
- Top-importance Religion articles
- WikiProject Religion articles
- FA-Class Women's History articles
- High-importance Women's History articles
- All WikiProject Women-related pages
- WikiProject Women's History articles
- FA-Class military history articles
- FA-Class European military history articles
- European military history task force articles
- FA-Class French military history articles
- French military history task force articles
- FA-Class Medieval warfare articles
- Medieval warfare task force articles
- FA-Class Middle Ages articles
- High-importance Middle Ages articles
- FA-Class history articles
- All WikiProject Middle Ages pages
- FA-Class France articles
- Top-importance France articles
- All WikiProject France pages
- FA-Class Gender studies articles
- High-importance Gender studies articles
- WikiProject Gender studies articles
- FA-Class Women in Religion articles
- High-importance Women in Religion articles