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Revision as of 16:47, 1 August 2024 editSeefooddiet (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers23,165 edits →Requested move 21 July 2024: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit Latest revision as of 15:32, 17 September 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,301,049 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:East Asian age reckoning/Archive 1) (botTag: Replaced 
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== Factual accuracy of the second lead paragraph ==
== "Real age" ==


The second lead paragraph ("Chinese age reckoning, the first of these methods ") contains no citation. From perusing the article, I have no idea whether any claim in that paragraph is true. ] (]) 13:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
The ] contrasts "Korean age" with "Real age". Even though it's used by most of the world, it's still not ideal to suggest one culture's counting system is more "real" than another. Are there any alternate terms that might be more neutral? I'd ping the image creator, but it appears they're no longer active. ] <small>(])</small> 15:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

:This caught my eye as well. I would suggest "chronological age" as more neutral alternative. ] (]) 16:48, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

:: uses "international system" and "western way". uses "international standards" and "calendar age". also uses "international standards". International standards and calendar age seem like useful and more neutral terms, depending on context. ] (]) 02:07, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
:::International age or calendar age are both much preferable to "real age". <nowiki>:</nowiki>3 ] (]]) 00:13, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
:I've gone ahead and changed the graphic to say "International Age." The closest font I could find that matched was Bitstream Vera Serif Bold, if someone else decides to change it in the future. ] (]) 14:25, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

== Requested move 21 July 2024 ==

{{requested move/dated|Age reckoning in the Sinosphere}}

] → {{no redirect|Age reckoning in the Sinosphere}} – Rationale explained here: ] and in ]. Tl;dr, "East Asia" often excludes Vietnam, which is also a part of the ].

Related previous move discussions that passed: ] and ].

Open to more suggested titles. Alternates:
# Sinosphere age reckoning
#* I think a little confusing; may suggest trying to determine the age of the Sinosphere itself.
# Traditional age reckoning in the Sinosphere
#* This is more precise I feel; currently, as far as I'm aware, the entire Sinosphere no longer uses the age reckoning for major applications, mostly just ceremonial. "Age reckoning in x" can be interpreted as a present and not mostly past practice

] (]) 10:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC) <small>—&nbsp;'''''Relisting.'''''&nbsp;] (]) 10:38, 28 July 2024 (UTC)</small>

:* Weak '''oppose''': because "sinosphere" isn't a common word. "East Asian" may not be entirely accurate but it is close and it is well recognized. —]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]) 19:55, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
:::I know we don't have to have consistency, but this breaks consistency with the other articles I linked above. The issue is "not be entirely accurate" -> frequent exclusion of Vietnam. This debate hinges on how much you value recognizability of name vs the potential exclusion of Vietnam from this phenomenon. ] (]) 00:37, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
::::The Misplaced Pages article on ] includes "Some scholars include Vietnam as part of East Asia as it has been considered part of the greater Chinese cultural sphere". —]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]) 01:33, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::I know, I said "frequent exclusion". Also key phrase there "Chinese cultural sphere".
:::::This is a less strong argument, but when you ask a person on the street "what countries are in East Asia", how likely are they to include Vietnam in the list? And if they do include Vietnam, do they also include Cambodia, Laos, etc (which are not part of the Sinosphere)? ] (]) 01:46, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::So "frequent ''in''clusion" as well, yes? "Sinosphere" is considered a spelling error by my editor. Is it the case that "sinosphere" is exactly the same as all regions and peoples who have reckoned age as described in this article? What if we keep the current title but mention "Sinosphere" and/or "Vietnam" prominently in the lede? We could also add redirects from ] and similar. —]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]) 13:09, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I'd argue exclusion is more common than inclusion. Yes, the scope of the age reckoning overlaps directly with the Sinosphere; the system originates in China and spread from there along with Chna's cultural influence. It's also not the most intuitive system; would have been hard to independently invent.
:::::::The redirect/clarification in lead would be ok, but I'd prefer we make this title consistent with the other articles. The other moves have already passed; should we undo those? ] (]) 21:03, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::::It is considered bad form to propose a move back immediately after a move, though if I had been aware of those moves early enough, I would have opined there too. Was the participation rate for those discussions as low as for this one? —]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]) 21:47, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::I linked relevant discussions above; you can check. I still support my original proposal, especially given the other titles. ] (]) 23:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
::::::The ] article itself includes "The Sinosphere, also known as the Chinese cultural sphere, ''East Asian'' cultural sphere, or the Sinic world, encompasses ..." (emphasis mine). Perhaps that counts as evidence that the terms are often synonyms. —]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]) 13:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::As above, I'd argue not precisely synonyms given how common it is to exclude Vietnam from "East Asia". ] (]) 21:04, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
:Tagging @]; this move discussion is related to your post on ] ] (]) 03:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
:Personally dislike the term {{!xt|Sinosphere}}. Maybe it's because I can't remember ever encountering it anywhere except Misplaced Pages; maybe it's because – like {{tqq|Sinogram}}, a direct translation of 漢字 – it feels like it low key pathologizes a cultural practice, or gives undue prominence to the influence of Chinese culture on its region.{{pb}}I am sympathetic to the fact that this is – as far as I'm aware – entirely an historical practice, so I'd support a move to ], ], ], or the like.{{pb}}But if the problem is that Vietnam is not sufficiently widely understood as being included as part of East Asia, I don't feel like the solution is to expunge the term "East Asia" from our cultural lexicon and leave it in a box on the doorstep of the Geography Department.{{pb}}Also, I could be entirely wrong. Maybe in 2024 "Sinosphere" is actually a super common term in modern cultural studies, and I'm just old-fashioned (I'm certainly at least old). ] (]) 09:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
::The latter two redlinks I'd oppose; the lunisolar calendar is not exclusive to the Sinosphere, and the Sinosphere has unique age-related practices.
::{{tq|I don't feel like the solution is to expunge the term "East Asia" from our cultural lexicon and leave it in a box on the doorstep of the Geography Department.}} This isn't what I'm proposing; "East Asia" is a useful phrase when talking about China, Japan, and Korea. It's just not the best phrase for describing the Chinese cultural sphere, which is what is happening in this article.
::I've seen "Sinosphere" enough times in academic literature that it doesn't seem as unusual to me. I also don't feel like it gives undue weight to the influence of China to the region; China was indeed a large influence. ] (]) 16:47, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

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Factual accuracy of the second lead paragraph

The second lead paragraph ("Chinese age reckoning, the first of these methods ") contains no citation. From perusing the article, I have no idea whether any claim in that paragraph is true. Y. Dongchen (talk) 13:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

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