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== Early history of this page == | |||
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Look to the talk pages ] and ] for much discussion of this text. --- ] 18:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
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{{WikiProject Conservatism|importance=low}}<!--Common talking point--> | |||
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* ] <small>(April–May 2005)</small> | |||
* ] <small>(May–August 2005)</small> | |||
* ] <small>(April–November 2005)</small> | |||
* ] <small>(Nov 2005–Jan 2006)</small> | |||
* ] <small>(January–April 2006)</small> | |||
* ] <small>(April 2006–Aug 2009)</small> | |||
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== Archive notes == | ||
Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. | |||
Needs to be done: | |||
If further archiving is needed, see ]. | |||
# The list of claimants to have coined this term needs to be rationalised. My user page ] may be useful to others; | |||
'''Previous discussions:''' | |||
# Weaselly terms like ''However, the goal of an integration of Arab (particularly Saudi) oil riches and theocracy, could be interpreted as a form of fascism.'' need to be rewritten. | |||
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I've not really got a high enough interest level to do this task well. --- ] 18:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
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*]: November 29, 2005 - 17:57, 16 January 2006 (UTC) | |||
*] | |||
You have time to criticize; but not to contribute. Well isn't that "convenient"? ] 20:55, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:I've made plenty of contributions to this material and related material. Check my edits. And criticism ''is'' contribution, when it is constructive. --- ] 21:13, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
== Mentioning Islamic fascism as an actual phenomenon == | |||
That's an interesting excuse. I however would never accuse you of "weaselly" writing. ] 21:16, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
While not the main subject of the article, that being the derogatory term, I believe actual occurrences of a ] of ] and ] (as an actual ideology) deserve a mention. I should note similarly the article ] was solely about the derogatory term but even that mentioned past and present actual "ecofascist" movements, although it has become about genuine ecofascism ideology as the prominent topic after the tragic Christchurch shootings. | |||
:I've been guilty of it on occasion, and there are defences for using it: check out my summary at ]. ''Could be interpreted'' is, according to the wikipedia term of art, a weasel phrase: does anybody so interpret this? Is the fact of such interpretations encyclopedic? It's not false, nor is it POV, but it is vague and fassl short of best editing practice. I was highlighting one example of a few such sentences in the article to bring attention to the problem. --- ] 22:06, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
Anyway some examples of this trend are the ] (a Egyptian corporativist party inspired by the government of ] which wanted to implement Islamic values as part of its ideology) and the ] (Libyan branch of the ], albiet unsuccessful). --] (]) 17:18, 24 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
== removed characterization == | |||
== This article needs a rewrite == | |||
I removed the following unsourced characterization of "Islamofascism". My comments are interpolated, in ''italics'': | |||
There's no mention of either Islamist critiques of facism or the influence of Juliues Evola's Revolt Against the Modern World on Islamism. Why not quote Islamists themselves? This article seems very Eurocentric, as if Islamists have never written about facism before (Hassan Al Banna mentions facism in his magnus opus Peace in Islam https://islamicbulletin.org/en/ebooks/resources/peace_in_islam.pdf ). | |||
Islamofascism is used ''by whom?'' to describe a an ideology with the following characteristics. | |||
* Promotes the establisment of a global puritan (Wahhabi) islamic nation state under the totalitarian control of Islamic religious authorities. ''Who does this? Some Islamic political movements promote the reestablishment of the ]ate, others want an Iranian or Taliban-style theocracy. Which are we talking about here? Or is this just a made-up bogeyman, as the term "totalitarian" seems to indicate?'' | |||
** Islamofascists promote the creation of totalitarian theocratic Islamic states. It's intrinsic to the definition of '''Islamofascist'''. Some may want a caliphate, while other settle for taliban-type total government. Hence the appelation totalitarian. | |||
"Nazism came to power in Germany, Fascism in Italy and both Hitler and Mussolini began to force their people to conform to what they thought; unity, order, development and power. Certainly, this system led the two countries to stability and a vital international role. This cultivated much hope, reawakened aspiration and united the whole country under one leader. Then what happened? It became apparent that these seemingly powerful systems were a real disaster. The inspiration and aspirations of the people were shattered and the system of democracy did not lead to the empowerment of the people but to the establishment of chosen tyrants. Eventually after a deadly war in which innumerable men women and children died, these regimes collapsed" | |||
* Posit's the existance of an eternal violent conflict between muslims and infidels, that will end with the eventual victory of muslims over the infidels. ''An ''eternal'' conflict that will ''end''. . . hmm, yes, that makes sense. Links to ] and ] might have been more informative.'' | |||
** This is still a article in progress. There would be no need to fight the infidel's but that this eternal conflict exists. | |||
* Accepts and promotes terrorism and violence to further its goals. ''Some Islamic political movements do. Some don't. Not very helpful.'' | |||
** Islamofascist movements support violence. Non Islamofascist movements may or may not support violence. | |||
Here's what Khomeini had to say: | |||
* Strongly and violently anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist, anti-American, and anti-western. ''All of these, all at once, then? Always? '' | |||
** Yes always, since Jews, Israel, the US, and the western world are all perceived as implacable enemies of Islam. Hence they must be subjugated or destroyed. This is a key islamofascist holding. Most advocates of islamofascism havent gotten to point of making feckless intelectually dishonest statements such as "I'm a stauch ] and not at all ]! I support palestinian armed struggle but oppose terrorism." | |||
https://www.nytimes.com/1979/10/07/archives/an-interview-with-khomeini.html | |||
* Denies normative western political concepts such as, the intrinsic value of human life, human rights and democracy. ''And motherhood and apple pie, too. Pure bogeyman.'' | |||
** Pure truth, sad but true. an Islamofascist state like Saudi Arabia or Taliban era Afghanistan does not embrace normative western political concepts. There is no democracy, and no human rights. | |||
'''FALLACI:''' Love or fanaticism, Imam? It seems to me that this is fanaticism, and of the most dangerous kind. I mean, fascist fanaticism. In fact, there are many who see a fascist threat in Iran today, and who even maintain that fascism is already being consolidated in Iran. | |||
* Advocates a philosophy of ] ] to convert/subvert non-Islamic societies from within. ''Proselytizing is such an insidious evil, isn't it.'' | |||
** When you are attempting to destroy the host society in bad faith, it could be considered a problem. | |||
'''KHOMEINI:''' No, it is neither fascism nor fanaticism. I repeat, they yell like this because they love me, and they love me because they feel that I care for them, that I act for their good. That is, to apply the Commandments of Islam. Islam is justice. Dictatorship is the greatest sin in the religion of Islam. Fascism and Islamism are absolutely incompatible. Fascism arises in the West, not among people of Islamic culture. | |||
* Advocates genocide of Jews ''or just the destruction or overthrow of the State of Israel—not quite the same thing—and even that isn't exactly a mainstream position.'' | |||
** You can't destroy or overthrow of the State of Israel without killing all or the vast majority of jews therein. Don't pretend otherwise. | |||
'''FALLACI:''' Perhaps we don't understand each other or the meaning of the word fascism, Imam. By fascism I mean a popular phenomenon, the kind we had in Italy when the crowds cheered Mussolini, as here they cheer you, and they obeyed him as they obey you now. | |||
There are two general problems with this text: | |||
#Not a single source is cited. | |||
#No significant movement that has all of these characteristics is named. I cannot think of one. Perhaps whoever added this text had some organization in mind. | |||
'''KHOMEINI:''' No. Because our masses are Moslems, educated by the clergy — that is, by men who preach spirituality and goodness. Fascism would be possible here only if the Shah were to return or if Communism were to take over. Yes, what you say could happen only if Communism would win and wipe us out. Cheering, for me, means to love freedom and democracy. | |||
—]]] 04:47, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
Yes, as a matter of fact I did. In no particular order. | |||
* Hamas and friends | |||
* Al Qaeda and friends | |||
* Taliban and friends | |||
* Saudi Government and friends | |||
* Advocates of Sharia Law | |||
] (]) 13:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
Inshallah, you will never have to live in a totalitarian state or face islamist terrorism, because they both really suck. | |||
] 05:36, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:It’s really an article about the term “islamofascism”, not an article about the relationships between Islam, islamism, and fascism. ] (]) 03:05, 4 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Still no source, I see. Do you have one, or is this just an idiosyncratic definition? —]]] 21:26, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:@] There is no shortage of Islamists such as Khomeini denouncing/dismissing Fascism as unIslamic, inferior to Islam, etc. just as capitalism, liberalism, socialism, and any other ideology is inferior to the all-encompassing and perfect system of Islam. Does this mean there are no connections between Islamism and fascism? no such thing as Islamofascism? ] (]) 01:38, 30 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:: This is a synthesis of many different articles in Commentary Magazine, American Jewish Congress Monthly, Blog postings, articles/books/lectures by ], a large personal library of books on post 9/11 etc. Basicly I'm presenting the consensus Neo-con view of what Islamofascism is.If you can come up with a better definition besides, "Pejorative Epithet applied to violent muslims who attack america and israel" lets see what it is. ] 14:16, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Perhaps. I just thought it was relevant to document how Islamist have historically understood fascism. ] (]) 17:26, 30 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Timothy Winter and Evola == | |||
I think that Klonimus' list could be useful, in that in focusses on specific wishes that exist in the world of extermist Islamism. However I do not think that Islamofascism should be regarded as a term that admits definition, rather it is a polemical term whose various deployments have led its meaning to be a family resemblance concept. It is absurd to suggest that all advocates of Sharia law have all the characteristics that Klonimus listed, and some of the better fits for the term, such as the supporters of the Iranian theocracy, are very far from being Wahhabist. It should be presented as a list of the kind of characteristics that motivates use of the term, but vary in terms of centrality to the concept. | |||
I will delete the part on Evola which mentions that he influenced Timothy Winter, because Winter but I will add it to both their pages respectively because it is important to point out. ] (]) 08:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
One other thing, that is stressed in the article: there is such a thing as moderate Islamism. --- ] 08:44, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
== Paul Gottfried == | |||
:''it is a polemical term whose various deployments have led its meaning to be a family resemblance concept''—Bingo. —]]] 21:26, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
: Agree with Mirv. you've got the | |||
:: Ok, here;s a big dicdef for you. Islamofascism (n) A term used to describe islamist movments that advocate violent jihad against percived enemies and advocate the creation of a unitary nondemocratic islamic state governed by religious authorities enforcing sharia law. | |||
Is Paul Gottfried a reliable source in a conceptual discussion about fascism? I have not read the original source, but since he has direct ties to far-right orgs, it seems like he has a dog in the fight. Given the stigma of the label, it clearly is in his interest to define fascism in a manner that doesn't apply to his political activities. Also, if his claim is indeed that fascism only existed in Mussolini's Italy, why should he be included in any discussion about varieties of fascism? ] (]) 23:01, 21 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
The key points being. | |||
* Advocacy of the creation of a totalitarian islamic state governed by sharia law. | |||
* Violent Jihad against perceived enemies internal and external. | |||
** Jews. | |||
** Western Countries and Israel | |||
** Apostates (I.e muslims who do not agree with the Islamofascists) | |||
== Orwell and Hitchens == | |||
Elements of Fascism in Islamofascism. | |||
The Orwell quote should be removed as it pertains to a general discussion about fascism. | |||
* Violent expansionist nationalism: The emphasis on the creation of a unitary muslim state makes the movment fasicist. Note that since Islamofascists beleive there exist two nation-states, a nation of islam, and a nation of infidels. The muslim state is not geographicly limited. | |||
* ] in the attempt to right various wrongs and insults against the muslim nation, I.e creation of israel, expulsion of Moors from spain, presence of Nonmuslims in Saudi Arabia etc. | |||
* Totalitarian emphasis the role of ideology in every aspect of life, i.e sharia law. | |||
* Is not anti-capitalist. | |||
* Racial and religious intolerance | |||
] 01:38, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
Hitchens was not a scholar? He did not publish in peer reviewed journals and did not acquire doctoral qualifications. Journalist, author or critic would be a more accurate designation. ] (]) 11:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
==The meeting of Islamists and fascists during WWII == | |||
== Unreliable stories on the Muslim Brotherhood == | |||
Al Arabiya news is a Saudi backed news channel. The Saudi government is anti Muslim Brotherhood (since MB is backed by Qatar) and should not be trusted as a reliable source - especially by Tony Duheaume - a man with hardly any scholarly backing. That article sites 0 sources that | |||
] meets with ] (1941)]] | |||
. Banna personally ordered a translation of Mein Kampf (which is nowhere on ] article) | |||
1930s-1940s relations of islamist movements with fascists during ] will have to be a subtopic in this article. | |||
. Banna had personal copies ''Der Sturmer'' (could Banna even read German?) | |||
] | |||
] 20:34, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
== Proposed Outline == | |||
The book I read on the Muslim Brotherhood is ''The Society of the Muslim Brothers'' by Richard P. Mitchell - who makes no mention of any of this. I tried looking in ''The Muslim Brotherhood and the West: A History of Enmity and Engagement'' but again there's no mention of any of that. At most it argues that the MB was funded by Nazis pre war but nothing like what Duheaume argued. | |||
# Origion of the term Islamofascism | |||
** Post 9/11 popularity | |||
With regards to Hamed Abdel-Samad, he cites a statement by Banna () where Banna praises the praised the militarism of Mussolini. But he forgot to include the last section of his speech: (translated from the Arabic with google translate) | |||
# Description of what people mean or implay when they use the term | |||
** Use as a pejoratvie epithet. | |||
*** Use by neoconservatives and warbloggers | |||
** Similarities and difference between Islamism and Fascism. | |||
** Islamism as a totalitarian ideology | |||
** Motivating ideology for islamist terrorism. | |||
<blockquote>But know, my dear, that there is a huge gap between the goal that Islam wants to instill in its sons the military spirit to achieve, and the goal that European politicians and leaders like Mussolini and others want to instill in their nations this spirit. Islam intends by this that Muslims work to preserve the legacy of God that He has bequeathed to them and to guide the whole world to that which contains light and guidance. They do not work out of desire for this world or greed for power, nor do they subject those whom God makes victorious to various types of humiliation and severe torment. As for Europe, it calls for the military spirit in competition for colonization and preparation to eliminate weak peoples and in desire for economic gains and material ambitions. There is a great difference between a divine, humane goal in which the individual becomes a victim of the interest of the group and a private goal in which the strong tyrannizes the weak and the victor devours the vanquished, and in which the atrocities of Tripoli, Tunis , Syria , Algeria, Marrakesh and the Rif are represented. It is strange to see that these are the teachings of Islam and that Muslims are in a deep sleep about them.</blockquote>Also it was Salam Saadi, not Hamed Abdel-Samad, who said that "Hassan Banna, the Egyptian founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, said in a book in 1935 that Italian fascist and dictator Benito Mussolini was practicing one of the principles of Islam.". It's citation three in https://brill.com/view/journals/fasc/7/2/article-p241_241.xml?language=en#ref_FN000003 ] (]) 19:39, 20 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
# Anti-democratic tendancy's in Islamist influence governments. | |||
** Saudi Arabia | |||
** Taliban Afghanistan | |||
** Northern Nigeria | |||
** Proposed World Caliphate | |||
: I took it out. If and when a reliable source is found, it can go back. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 03:43, 21 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
# Islamofascism and Racism | |||
** Anti-semitism | |||
** Darfur Genocide | |||
** Slavery in Sudan/Saudi Arabia | |||
** Meetings of Grand Mufti with Nazi's | |||
== Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler == | |||
===The proposal above is original research=== | |||
There needs to be some mention of the influence of Nazi German fascististic thought upon the Umma due to the influence that Hitler had on the ]. Richard Webster, who is generally sympathetic to Palestinians, blames the British for instilling both anti-semitism in Islamic thought as well as a fascist type response. He says all Abrahamic religions have components of fascism (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) because they want to make the entire world believers. (I don't agree with that, not in the present re Christianity, and Jews have never proselytized.) I also disagree about propaganda disappeared from Europe after WW2 (ha ha!) but I'm not the expert; he is. He is referenced as a source from the earliest versions of the article. A sentence of two that captures the relationship between Hitler's fascism and fascism in N Africa and other Arab nations via Amin should be mentioned (paraphrased) so as to include the impact of Nazi German fascist thought on Islam in the Middle East post-WW2: | |||
By virtue of using an epithet to chart ''a history of'' the fascistic tendency in 20th Century Islam. Was this ever attempted —in such a way— before? ] 08:47, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
<blockquote>'Throughout WW2, Hajj Amin remained in touch with the German government, and in 1941, having fled... to Berlin, he held talks with Hitler... thanked him for the ‘unequivocal support’ he had shown for the Palestinians... Anti-semitic propaganda broadcast in Arabic from Berlin had a significant effect in Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, Tunisia and in other Arab countries. | |||
* Islam + Fascist Tendancies = Islamofascism. ] 09:45, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
Negative, you've yet to demonstrate that Islamofascism is a scholarly concept/name for this topic. You can't give an epithet a meaning it dosen't yet have, even if said epithet is worded very closely to resemble such a topic. If and/or when (you prove) it does, then you can go on to depict such an account using that title. Until then, it's original research. ] 10:31, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
Although such propaganda disappeared from Europe ... in Egypt anti-semitism was taken up not only by Nasser, but also, in a particularly violent form, by Sayyid Qutb... of the Muslim Brotherhood whom Nasser executed and who... shaped the thinking of modern, militant Islam including bin Laden. In Qutb’s view, Jews, who had always rebelled against God, were inherently evil... | |||
I agree with El C here; you can, of course, create any number of words using the formula: ''X'' + Fascist tendencies = ''X''ofascism. How about 'Graecofascism'? 'Sinofascism'? 'Hindofascism'? The trouble is, having created the term, it's also easy to create a concept to go with it, and then to create a history. You don't even need to go outside the facts; there'll always be, in any nationality, race, or religion that's been around for a while, examples of people or groups acting badly. The term 'fascism' is being used in such a Usenet/school-debating-society way that that's all you need. Misplaced Pages isn't here to invent new concepts, nor to parrot whatever nonsense the U.S. neo-cons have come up with as they flail around trying to find reasons to attack other countries. ] (] 11:21, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
* Mel, once any XYZfascism become notable, it deserves it's own wikipedia article. Given the fairly wide use of Islamofascism, to explicate a particular idea ( Violent totaltarian Islamism) it deserves an encyclopedia entry. ] 16:59, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
...the destructive form which anti-semitism has now assumed within militant Islam... is not authentically Islamic; is western. ...dreams of world-domination which drive extreme Islamists have been there from the beginning. But such dreams are not unique to Islam; they are the common property of all three Abrahamic faiths. For, in that they look forward to a time when the entire world will bow down to the God they worship, Judaism, Christianity and Islam have always been...ideologies of world-domination."</blockquote> | |||
== The subject is the WORD, not Islam == | |||
I can try, but this is not something I know much about. ] (]) 10:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
This is just like "]". The "]" article talks about the word. It is not a catalog of bad things that black people have done. Likewise, "Islamofascist" should discuss the term and should not be a catalog of bad things that Muslims have done. | |||
:I think I'd agree with an inclusion on the Mufti and Hitler, but specifically on the academic discourse on the subject. The idea that Hitler "introduced" antisemitism to the Muslim world or helped invent 'radical Islam', as argued by , is not without controversy. This is mainly because it assumes that: | |||
If you want to write about Islamic extremism, there are other subjects for that. ] 11:51, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:# Radical or antisemitic tendencies in Islam did not already exist before the Hitler-Mufti meeting | |||
:# That there was an increase in, specifically 'radical Islamic', antisemitism post war, as opposed antisemitism by the anti-Islamist and socialist governments in Syria and Egypt. | |||
:No, it's about the concept. This isn't a philological work, but an encyclopædia. If it were just about the word, ir would belong in ]. ] (] 11:57, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:# That this increase could '''only''' be attributed to Nazi propaganda and not to other events post-war | |||
:# That Nazi propaganda was widespread and taken at face value in the Arab world, and not challenged in any serious way, including on Islamic grounds | |||
::There is no concept "Islamofascism". The term is not used in a serious academic context, as far as I know. There is a lot that can be said about a term besides its definition. Again, see "]" for an example. ] 12:35, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:# That most Arabs even had access to radios in the first place and could (and did) listen to Axis propaganda (Joel Beinin challenges the idea that Qutb was inspired by the Nazis, since evidence for his radicalism did not appear until at earliest 1948).<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Beinin |first=Joel |date=2010 |title=Review of Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World; From Empathy to Denial: Arab Responses to the Holocaust |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/41308720 |journal=International Journal of Middle East Studies |volume=42 |issue=4 |pages=689–692 |issn=0020-7438}}</ref> | |||
:# That the Nazi ideology was not contradictory; | |||
::: I agree that there's no genuine concept (read what I said above). This article, however, is not about the word. perhaps you mean that it ''should'' be about the word. My view, however, is that the article shouldn't be here. ] (] 13:02, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Regarding the Muslim Brotherhood, as Ulrike Freitag and Israel Gershoni put it: | |||
::: I disagree, Islamofascism is a real concept. It's a form of political islam with totalitarian goals and methods. ] 13:43, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:''"To our mind, the Muslim Brothers' position vis-a-vis Zionists and Jews had its own logic: The Muslim Brothers aggressively agitated against the Zionist project and took a leading pro-Palestinian role in Egypt and the Arab world between 1936 and 1939. They did not need to nurture their hatred of Zionism, and sometimes of Jews in general, with external sources. Actually, at the same time they developed a clear-cut anti-Nazi and anti-racialist position. There is no hard evidence in al-Banna's rhetoric, ideology or practices that demonstrates any sympathy, let alone collaboration, with the Nazi regime in Germany or its aggressive anti-Semitism. On the contrary, al-Banna and other ideologues and activists of the Muslim Brothers rejected and denounced Nazism on the grounds of its racism and totalitarianism. They considered it to be a new kind of Western imperialism, crueller and more oppressive than the old imperialism of Britain and France. Therefore, to accuse them of Nazi influences because of their support for the Palestinian national movement and its leader, the Mufti, and because of his later collaboration with the Nazis amounts to guilt by association"'' | |||
::::It's a slur. Much can be said about Islamic extremism, but this is not the place. ] 14:18, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:https://www.jstor.org/stable/41303595 | |||
:As Mia Lee puts it: | |||
How do you respond the the various arguments that I've offered, here and on the VfD? ] (] 13:47, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:''"Both sets of authors claim that Arabs increasingly participated in operations against Jews during the German occupation. But they do so without showing significant corroborating evidence of this alleged increase in violence, thus creating ambiguity about the reasons behind the rise of anti-Semitism in the region. Moreover, while they emphasise Arabs’ welcome of the Germans, neither set of authors convincingly addresses the findings of numerous studies from scholars of the Middle East that document how Middle Eastern leaders in the interwar era were suspicious or antipathetic toward imperial powers".. "There is no new evidence that the Mufti commanded the support of any significant number of Arab Muslims either during his exile or afterward. Moreover, neither book satisfactorily demonstrates that the Mufti’s anti-Semitic position was shared by Islamic groups in the Middle East during the war"'' | |||
:https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/26852336 | |||
:"Nigger" is a real concept to Ku Klux Klan members too. --] 13:48, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Hitler was fascinated with Islam, but was also incredibly ignorant of even basic Islamic practices. For example, one of the ways the SS differentiated who was Jewish and who wasn't was by checking to see who was circumcised, and then killing them on sight. This was done completely ignorant to the fact Muslims also practice circumcision; the SS killed hundreds of Muslims Tatars before realizing their mistake.<ref>{{Citation |last=Motadel |first=David |title=Veiled Survivors: Jews, Roma and Muslims in the Years of the Holocaust |date=2015 |work=Rewriting German History: New Perspectives on Modern Germany |pages=288–305 |editor-last=Rüger |editor-first=Jan |url=https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9781137347794_16 |access-date=2024-10-09 |place=London |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan UK |language=en |doi=10.1057/9781137347794_16 |isbn=978-1-137-34779-4 |editor2-last=Wachsmann |editor2-first=Nikolaus}}</ref> | |||
:The extent to which radical Islam ''needed'' Nazism to proliferate, that it couldn't possibly spread without the Nazis for other reasons, is not, to put it lightly, an idea without some skeptics. ] (]) 01:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::No, it's a term used by them. ] (] 14:02, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::No, when a term is used it has a concept associated with it. Words have no meaning apart from the concepts they represent. --] 15:19, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::Many words have uses despite expressing no concept (e.g., prepositions, articles, placeholders), just as language can be used to perform many tasks other than making statements (e.g., illocutions, perlocutions). Insults often fall into one or other of these categories. ] (] 17:05, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::: You can't have your shawarma both ways. Either Islamofascism is a merely a pejorative word, in which case merge it, or it is a fairly notable concept with 62.5 Kgoogles that deserves a worthy encyclopedia article. ] 16:55, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
==Wahhabism== | |||
Firebug, your edit summary which reads <code>I agree that Wahhabism sucks, but we can't just present these allegations as fact in a NPOV encyclopedia.)</code> is ''stylistically'' not one that I find acceptable for an edit summary, no matter how reactionary and oppressive I find Wahhabism to be. ] 12:22, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:I put that in there because I know if I just said the statements were NPOV, some people would accuse me of denying the truth of Wahhabism or some such thing. My point is that, even though I personally think some of these descriptions have a great deal of accuracy to them, I feel that all sides of the issue need to be presented in a neutral manner without inflammatory language for NPOV to be satisfied. If we can describe what the Wahhabis believe in their own words, we don't need terms like "wild intolerance for any dissent", which I feel are unencyclopedic. Instead, quote specific statements by prominent Wahhabi extremists like Mullah ]. ] 17:27, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Wow, the description of Wahhbism and Salafism was just out there. Even ] would know better. I'm shocked. ] 12:29, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
== Orientalism is an important related term == | |||
If you understand the concept of Orientalism, you understand the prejudice and bigotry behind those who promote the term "Islamofascism". --] 13:53, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:As for the prejudice and bigotry behind those who promote the epithet Judeofascism (as a term) . . . ] 14:04, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
::I agree, that's why I call for equal treatment for the two terms. Either both deleted, both directed to List of political epithets, or both with equivalently written articles. What we see on Misplaced Pages is imbalanced treatment reflecting the prevalent anti-Islamic biases of many users. --] 15:16, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::I think that ] should be redirected to ], and that ] should be deleted because it simply isn't in widespread enough use. But if both of them remain, I'm thinking about creating an article on ], which has 303 Google hits, and is often heard in the left-leaning blogosphere. Why not have an article for all three of the major ]s with "-fascism" attached as a suffix? Or would that be ]? ] 17:30, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::Don't forget ]. ] 17:41, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
== Obscurantism == | |||
Okies, it looks like there is going to be quite a bit of heavy lifting before we come up a good NPOV article. '''The current edit/revert wars are not helping.''' I am especially disturbed by by certain users who are ''removing information'' from the article thus making it less useful. Especially notable is the fighting over the article's external links section, VfD'ing an article that was inprogress and being worked upon, and a general atmosphere of rancor created by bad faith actions. | |||
Perhaps we can all draw upon the Islamic tradition of ] (Concensus of the Learned) to come up with an article that is agreeable to all. I think it's clear that people working on this article come from a wide range of political background. However to make a good article, you have to '''suspend your political beliefs and work on the subject of the article in good faith. If you can't do that, then you ought to recuse yourself.''' | |||
Negative improvments are not helpful. If you have nothing ] to say, then restrict yourself to the talk page. Deleting other people's contributions while not contributing anything yourself does not further the objective of getting a finished article. | |||
Basicly as I see it several issues need to be hammered out. I hope this list grows out organically. I look forwards to peoples comments. | |||
* Does islamofascism exist. If so, what is it? If it does not exist, why do people talk about it? The invention of a word is the invention of an idea, even if the underlying phenominon does not exist, the word does, and so does the idea. | |||
* Even if islamofascism does not exist: '''What is ment by people who say the word Islamofascism?''' I'd like to think I came up with a collection of concepts that are implied when people talk about islamofascism. | |||
* Are there any valid similarites between fascism and and alleged islamofascism. | |||
* Did Islamic Fascism excist pre 9/11? | |||
* Characteristics of governments governed under an Islamofascist system. | |||
* This article is big enough to be broken down into sections. What should that layout be? | |||
] 20:25, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:], you are the most biased person here. You want to turn a '''slur''' into a forum for your "original research". That is contrary to the spirit of wikipedia. "Islamofascism" is not a scholarly topic; it is an insult. To the extent it has legitimate meaning, it is redundant with other topics (such as ], ], ], and ]). ] 21:12, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:], I think that you've a little confused as to what editing is about. It's collaborative, and that means, among other things, that if people think that what you've written is wrong, they'll take it out. There are limits to that, of course, and there have to be good, NPoV reasons — but you can't complain and demand that they not do it ''in principle''. Frankly, I agree with Mirror Vaux that you seem clearly to be engaged in original research here. (I'm not sure what obscurantism has to with any of this, by the way.) ] (] 23:15, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Let us imagine, as a thought experiment, that someone posted these questions to the talk page of ]. What do you think the reaction would be? | |||
<blockquote style="border:1px solid #0000ff;"> | |||
* Do niggers exist? If so, what are they? If they do not exist, why do people talk about them? The invention of a word is the invention of an idea, even if the underlying phenomenon does not exist, the word does, and so does the idea. | |||
* Even if niggers do not exist: '''What is meant by people who say the word "nigger"?''' One could come up with a collection of concepts that are implied when people talk about "niggers". | |||
* Did "niggers" exist pre some date or other ? | |||
* Characteristics of niggers; nigger culture. | |||
</blockquote> | |||
:This example is extreme and will no doubt be offensive. It should be clear that I do not seriously mean or believe any of it; my purpose in writing it should also be clear. (If it's not: this is just a demonstrative restatement of Mirror Vax's point.) —]]] 00:37, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
::I really think this article is redundant, there are already articles on islamic terrorism, militant Islam, and political islam (]). Islamofascism is just a slur that is used mostly by Neo-Conservative bloggers, that is why it gets so many google hits. Are we going to start writing articles on what a Koranimal is, or what the Religion of Pieces is if both terms become much more popular on the internet and in blogs? Or how about the term Jewish Supremacist, that is a fairly popular one among people such as David Duke, should we write an article about it and ask what the Jewish Supremacism culture is, what people mean when they say Jewish Supremacist, do Jewish Supremacists exist? That is why Islamofascist and Islamofascism are slurs, they are not fit for an encyclopedia.Yuber 00:51, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 01:11, 9 October 2024
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Archive notes
Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Misplaced Pages:How to archive a talk page. Previous discussions:
- Meeting of Islamists and fascists during WWII
- Wahhabism
- Judgemental language
- Talk:Islamofascism/Archive01#Aryan Nation material
- SS photo
- Definition of fascism
- Proposed merger with Fascist (epithet)
- how did this page get reduced to a collection if quotes?
- Veiled censorship
- Stop re-directing this article with neo-fascism or other non-sense
- Blogs as sources
- Please Stop Edit War!
- Juan Cole and the 'F' word
Mentioning Islamic fascism as an actual phenomenon
While not the main subject of the article, that being the derogatory term, I believe actual occurrences of a ideological syncretism of Political Islam and Fascism (as an actual ideology) deserve a mention. I should note similarly the article Ecofascism was solely about the derogatory term but even that mentioned past and present actual "ecofascist" movements, although it has become about genuine ecofascism ideology as the prominent topic after the tragic Christchurch shootings.
Anyway some examples of this trend are the Young Egypt Party (a Egyptian corporativist party inspired by the government of Fascist Italy which wanted to implement Islamic values as part of its ideology) and the Muslim Association of the Lictor (Libyan branch of the Italian Fascist Party, albiet unsuccessful). --PanNostraticism (talk) 17:18, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
This article needs a rewrite
There's no mention of either Islamist critiques of facism or the influence of Juliues Evola's Revolt Against the Modern World on Islamism. Why not quote Islamists themselves? This article seems very Eurocentric, as if Islamists have never written about facism before (Hassan Al Banna mentions facism in his magnus opus Peace in Islam https://islamicbulletin.org/en/ebooks/resources/peace_in_islam.pdf ).
"Nazism came to power in Germany, Fascism in Italy and both Hitler and Mussolini began to force their people to conform to what they thought; unity, order, development and power. Certainly, this system led the two countries to stability and a vital international role. This cultivated much hope, reawakened aspiration and united the whole country under one leader. Then what happened? It became apparent that these seemingly powerful systems were a real disaster. The inspiration and aspirations of the people were shattered and the system of democracy did not lead to the empowerment of the people but to the establishment of chosen tyrants. Eventually after a deadly war in which innumerable men women and children died, these regimes collapsed"
Here's what Khomeini had to say:
https://www.nytimes.com/1979/10/07/archives/an-interview-with-khomeini.html
FALLACI: Love or fanaticism, Imam? It seems to me that this is fanaticism, and of the most dangerous kind. I mean, fascist fanaticism. In fact, there are many who see a fascist threat in Iran today, and who even maintain that fascism is already being consolidated in Iran.
KHOMEINI: No, it is neither fascism nor fanaticism. I repeat, they yell like this because they love me, and they love me because they feel that I care for them, that I act for their good. That is, to apply the Commandments of Islam. Islam is justice. Dictatorship is the greatest sin in the religion of Islam. Fascism and Islamism are absolutely incompatible. Fascism arises in the West, not among people of Islamic culture.
FALLACI: Perhaps we don't understand each other or the meaning of the word fascism, Imam. By fascism I mean a popular phenomenon, the kind we had in Italy when the crowds cheered Mussolini, as here they cheer you, and they obeyed him as they obey you now.
KHOMEINI: No. Because our masses are Moslems, educated by the clergy — that is, by men who preach spirituality and goodness. Fascism would be possible here only if the Shah were to return or if Communism were to take over. Yes, what you say could happen only if Communism would win and wipe us out. Cheering, for me, means to love freedom and democracy.
Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 13:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- It’s really an article about the term “islamofascism”, not an article about the relationships between Islam, islamism, and fascism. Prezbo (talk) 03:05, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) There is no shortage of Islamists such as Khomeini denouncing/dismissing Fascism as unIslamic, inferior to Islam, etc. just as capitalism, liberalism, socialism, and any other ideology is inferior to the all-encompassing and perfect system of Islam. Does this mean there are no connections between Islamism and fascism? no such thing as Islamofascism? Louis P. Boog (talk) 01:38, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps. I just thought it was relevant to document how Islamist have historically understood fascism. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 17:26, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
Timothy Winter and Evola
I will delete the part on Evola which mentions that he influenced Timothy Winter, because Winter but I will add it to both their pages respectively because it is important to point out. StrongALPHA (talk) 08:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
Paul Gottfried
Is Paul Gottfried a reliable source in a conceptual discussion about fascism? I have not read the original source, but since he has direct ties to far-right orgs, it seems like he has a dog in the fight. Given the stigma of the label, it clearly is in his interest to define fascism in a manner that doesn't apply to his political activities. Also, if his claim is indeed that fascism only existed in Mussolini's Italy, why should he be included in any discussion about varieties of fascism? 37.96.36.84 (talk) 23:01, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Orwell and Hitchens
The Orwell quote should be removed as it pertains to a general discussion about fascism.
Hitchens was not a scholar? He did not publish in peer reviewed journals and did not acquire doctoral qualifications. Journalist, author or critic would be a more accurate designation. 37.96.55.252 (talk) 11:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Unreliable stories on the Muslim Brotherhood
Al Arabiya news is a Saudi backed news channel. The Saudi government is anti Muslim Brotherhood (since MB is backed by Qatar) and should not be trusted as a reliable source - especially this article by Tony Duheaume - a man with hardly any scholarly backing. That article sites 0 sources that
. Banna personally ordered a translation of Mein Kampf (which is nowhere on Mein Kampf in Arabic article)
. Banna had personal copies Der Sturmer (could Banna even read German?)
The book I read on the Muslim Brotherhood is The Society of the Muslim Brothers by Richard P. Mitchell - who makes no mention of any of this. I tried looking in The Muslim Brotherhood and the West: A History of Enmity and Engagement but again there's no mention of any of that. At most it argues that the MB was funded by Nazis pre war but nothing like what Duheaume argued.
With regards to Hamed Abdel-Samad, he cites a statement by Banna (archived in ikhanwiki) where Banna praises the praised the militarism of Mussolini. But he forgot to include the last section of his speech: (translated from the Arabic with google translate)
But know, my dear, that there is a huge gap between the goal that Islam wants to instill in its sons the military spirit to achieve, and the goal that European politicians and leaders like Mussolini and others want to instill in their nations this spirit. Islam intends by this that Muslims work to preserve the legacy of God that He has bequeathed to them and to guide the whole world to that which contains light and guidance. They do not work out of desire for this world or greed for power, nor do they subject those whom God makes victorious to various types of humiliation and severe torment. As for Europe, it calls for the military spirit in competition for colonization and preparation to eliminate weak peoples and in desire for economic gains and material ambitions. There is a great difference between a divine, humane goal in which the individual becomes a victim of the interest of the group and a private goal in which the strong tyrannizes the weak and the victor devours the vanquished, and in which the atrocities of Tripoli, Tunis , Syria , Algeria, Marrakesh and the Rif are represented. It is strange to see that these are the teachings of Islam and that Muslims are in a deep sleep about them.
Also it was Salam Saadi, not Hamed Abdel-Samad, who said that "Hassan Banna, the Egyptian founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, said in a book in 1935 that Italian fascist and dictator Benito Mussolini was practicing one of the principles of Islam.". It's citation three in https://brill.com/view/journals/fasc/7/2/article-p241_241.xml?language=en#ref_FN000003 Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 19:39, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- I took it out. If and when a reliable source is found, it can go back. Zero 03:43, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler
There needs to be some mention of the influence of Nazi German fascististic thought upon the Umma due to the influence that Hitler had on the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Richard Webster, who is generally sympathetic to Palestinians, blames the British for instilling both anti-semitism in Islamic thought as well as a fascist type response. He says all Abrahamic religions have components of fascism (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) because they want to make the entire world believers. (I don't agree with that, not in the present re Christianity, and Jews have never proselytized.) I also disagree about propaganda disappeared from Europe after WW2 (ha ha!) but I'm not the expert; he is. He is referenced as a source from the earliest versions of the article. A sentence of two that captures the relationship between Hitler's fascism and fascism in N Africa and other Arab nations via Amin should be mentioned (paraphrased) so as to include the impact of Nazi German fascist thought on Islam in the Middle East post-WW2:
'Throughout WW2, Hajj Amin remained in touch with the German government, and in 1941, having fled... to Berlin, he held talks with Hitler... thanked him for the ‘unequivocal support’ he had shown for the Palestinians... Anti-semitic propaganda broadcast in Arabic from Berlin had a significant effect in Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, Tunisia and in other Arab countries.
Although such propaganda disappeared from Europe ... in Egypt anti-semitism was taken up not only by Nasser, but also, in a particularly violent form, by Sayyid Qutb... of the Muslim Brotherhood whom Nasser executed and who... shaped the thinking of modern, militant Islam including bin Laden. In Qutb’s view, Jews, who had always rebelled against God, were inherently evil...
...the destructive form which anti-semitism has now assumed within militant Islam... is not authentically Islamic; is western. ...dreams of world-domination which drive extreme Islamists have been there from the beginning. But such dreams are not unique to Islam; they are the common property of all three Abrahamic faiths. For, in that they look forward to a time when the entire world will bow down to the God they worship, Judaism, Christianity and Islam have always been...ideologies of world-domination."
I can try, but this is not something I know much about. FeralOink (talk) 10:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
- I think I'd agree with an inclusion on the Mufti and Hitler, but specifically on the academic discourse on the subject. The idea that Hitler "introduced" antisemitism to the Muslim world or helped invent 'radical Islam', as argued by Matthias Kuntzel, is not without controversy. This is mainly because it assumes that:
- Radical or antisemitic tendencies in Islam did not already exist before the Hitler-Mufti meeting
- That there was an increase in, specifically 'radical Islamic', antisemitism post war, as opposed antisemitism by the anti-Islamist and socialist governments in Syria and Egypt.
- That this increase could only be attributed to Nazi propaganda and not to other events post-war
- That Nazi propaganda was widespread and taken at face value in the Arab world, and not challenged in any serious way, including on Islamic grounds
- That most Arabs even had access to radios in the first place and could (and did) listen to Axis propaganda (Joel Beinin challenges the idea that Qutb was inspired by the Nazis, since evidence for his radicalism did not appear until at earliest 1948).
- That the Nazi ideology was not contradictory; that the Nazis did not also praise the explicitly secular and anti-religious regime of Ataturk
- Regarding the Muslim Brotherhood, as Ulrike Freitag and Israel Gershoni put it:
- "To our mind, the Muslim Brothers' position vis-a-vis Zionists and Jews had its own logic: The Muslim Brothers aggressively agitated against the Zionist project and took a leading pro-Palestinian role in Egypt and the Arab world between 1936 and 1939. They did not need to nurture their hatred of Zionism, and sometimes of Jews in general, with external sources. Actually, at the same time they developed a clear-cut anti-Nazi and anti-racialist position. There is no hard evidence in al-Banna's rhetoric, ideology or practices that demonstrates any sympathy, let alone collaboration, with the Nazi regime in Germany or its aggressive anti-Semitism. On the contrary, al-Banna and other ideologues and activists of the Muslim Brothers rejected and denounced Nazism on the grounds of its racism and totalitarianism. They considered it to be a new kind of Western imperialism, crueller and more oppressive than the old imperialism of Britain and France. Therefore, to accuse them of Nazi influences because of their support for the Palestinian national movement and its leader, the Mufti, and because of his later collaboration with the Nazis amounts to guilt by association"
- https://www.jstor.org/stable/41303595
- As Mia Lee puts it:
- "Both sets of authors claim that Arabs increasingly participated in operations against Jews during the German occupation. But they do so without showing significant corroborating evidence of this alleged increase in violence, thus creating ambiguity about the reasons behind the rise of anti-Semitism in the region. Moreover, while they emphasise Arabs’ welcome of the Germans, neither set of authors convincingly addresses the findings of numerous studies from scholars of the Middle East that document how Middle Eastern leaders in the interwar era were suspicious or antipathetic toward imperial powers".. "There is no new evidence that the Mufti commanded the support of any significant number of Arab Muslims either during his exile or afterward. Moreover, neither book satisfactorily demonstrates that the Mufti’s anti-Semitic position was shared by Islamic groups in the Middle East during the war"
- https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/26852336
- Hitler was fascinated with Islam, but was also incredibly ignorant of even basic Islamic practices. For example, one of the ways the SS differentiated who was Jewish and who wasn't was by checking to see who was circumcised, and then killing them on sight. This was done completely ignorant to the fact Muslims also practice circumcision; the SS killed hundreds of Muslims Tatars before realizing their mistake.
- The extent to which radical Islam needed Nazism to proliferate, that it couldn't possibly spread without the Nazis for other reasons, is not, to put it lightly, an idea without some skeptics. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 01:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
- Beinin, Joel (2010). "Review of Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World; From Empathy to Denial: Arab Responses to the Holocaust". International Journal of Middle East Studies. 42 (4): 689–692. ISSN 0020-7438.
- Motadel, David (2015), Rüger, Jan; Wachsmann, Nikolaus (eds.), "Veiled Survivors: Jews, Roma and Muslims in the Years of the Holocaust", Rewriting German History: New Perspectives on Modern Germany, London: Palgrave Macmillan UK, pp. 288–305, doi:10.1057/9781137347794_16, ISBN 978-1-137-34779-4, retrieved 2024-10-09