| Revision as of 20:20, 17 September 2024 edit82.19.124.65 (talk) →Requested move 17 September 2024: ReplyTags: Reverted Reply← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 08:02, 30 December 2024 edit undoUltraodan (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers1,265 edits →Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 December 2024 |
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== A few points == |
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First of all, some of the English language sources that I've reviewed do not state that ONLY Hezbollah militants were injured. Secondly, the "Background" section contains multiple past attacks involving Hezbollah, Lebanon and Israel, while many of the sources have nothing to do with the pager explosions (not including the defense official issue). This is likely a violation of ], where editors try to connect multiple events together because they believe the events are related even when no reliable source made a connection. ] (]'''-''']) 15:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:There is currently no indication that had anything to do with the pager explosions in Lebanon. ] (]'''-''']) 15:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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*Aside from the fact that civilians were injured, we also know that a girl was killed. But this keeps getting removed. Why? ''']''' <sub>(Please ] on reply)</sub> 17:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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|archive = Talk:2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks/Archive %(counter)d |
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*:I mention it was a claim by Hezbollah, not even by the Lebanese Ministry of Health. ] (]) 17:33, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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*:until further confirmation may be best to wait on that claim or perhaps add "Hezbollah also alleged a 9 year old child was killed by one of the pagers but this claim has not yet been confirmed" though probably best to just wait ] (]) 19:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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{{old move|date1=17 September 2024|destination1=2024 Lebanon–Syria pager explosions|result1=not moved|link1=Special:Permalink/1246569339#Requested move 17 September 2024|date2=19 September 2024|destination2=|result2=Inching ever closer to consensus|link2=Special:Permalink/1252382344#Requested move 19 September 2024|date3=21 October 2024|from3=2024 Lebanon pager explosions|destination3=2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks|result3=moved|link3=Special:Permalink/1253669674#Requested move 21 October 2024}} |
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== Requested move 17 September 2024 == |
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{{requested move/dated|2024 Lebanon–Syria pager explosions}} |
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] → {{no redirect|2024 Lebanon–Syria pager explosions}} – Reports on pager explosions in Syria with multiple confirmed deaths: ] (]) 16:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:'''Oppose''' – It appears that most sources are focusing on Lebanon as this was the primary site of the explosion, with significantly less in Syria. ] (] · ]) – <small>(] <span style="color:#4dac8b;">♥</span>)</small> 18:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''' – while most explosions were in Lebanon, that there were explosions in Syria is still very important politically. ] (]) 18:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:'''Oppose''' – it appears the overwhelming majority of injuries took place inside Lebanon. Reliable sources report 3,000 injuries in Lebanon, and only 14 in Syria (). These numbers may change, but as it stands this seems primarily a Lebanese event – which is exactly how it's being discussed and headlined in most reliable sources. Including Syria in the infobox and lead is enough, IMHO. <span style="border: 1px solid red; padding: 2px;">]</span> 18:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:'''Neutral''' – I would propose a rename to 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions (or similar), since that seems to be the central association between the explosions. Nearly half of those killed were in Syria. ] (]) 18:38, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:'''Oppose''' - I tend to agree with GhostOfNoMan; the overwhelming majority of this incident happened within Lebanon. ] (]) 18:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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: It should be renamed ] because it were Hezbollah's pagers that exploded (not restricting geographic range). ''']''' 19:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''' - Although the majority of the explosions occurred in Lebanon, the number of explosions in Syria was more than a handful (so far it's in the double-digits), and (as of this writing) the death toll in Syria is similar to the death toll in Lebanon. ] (]) 19:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' Jerusalem Post reports that "operatives" are also wounded in Iraq (). ] (]) 19:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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*:The Jerusalem Post does not report a specific number of explosions in Iraq, nor any injuries or deaths in Iraq. Therefore, I would treat all information about explosions in Iraq as "unconfirmed" until we get more specific information. ] (]) 19:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== There's a typo I'd like to fix but I'm a humble IP editor and thus can't edit this extended-protected article == |
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:'''Oppose''' - There are relatively fewer mentions of explosions in Syria in the media and the target remains Lebanese Hezbollah (not to be confused with Iraqi Hezbollah). The fact that Lebanese Hezbollah has a presence in Syria and as such some pager explosions also happened in Syria, is insignificant and likely a coincidence caused by the explosions being indiscriminate. ] (]) 19:48, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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In the final paragraph under ]: |
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:'''Wait''' - We should rename it as "Hezbollah pagers explosions". There were explosions reported in Iraq as well, but we should wait a bit I think. ] (]) 19:55, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:'''Strong oppose''' for this proposed title; the overwhelming majority of the pagers were in Lebanon, as RS coverage has proven. I '''strongly support''' this article's move to the title of '''2024 Lebanon pagers attack'''; this is a ], not an "explosion." ] (]) 20:00, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::@] Apart from Twitter who else is calling it a state-terrorist attack? ] (]) 20:05, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Scholars will eventually describe it for what it is, a state-terrorist attack. Aside from the description, the proposed title of '''2024 Lebanon pagers attack''' is currently supported by RS: ] (]) 20:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::::"Scholars will eventually describe it for what it is" Misplaced Pages isnt your place to speak your political beliefs. Please keep it neutral. Also don't write about the future. ] (]) 20:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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<blockquote>Marko Milanovic writes it is almost impossible for Israel to have known whether Hezbollah issued the pagers to military members or civilian ones, given ''than'' some pagers had been issued mere hours before the explosions. He concludes the attacks were most likely indiscriminate. |
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== Timeline of explosions == |
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</blockquote> |
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Referenced Reuters article states that the explosions lasted for an hour, not simultaneously. ] (]) 17:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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Italics added to the word in question; it should be that rather than than. ] (]) 06:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:Done, because humbleness in this topic area should be encouraged. Thanks ] (]) 08:18, 1 December 2024 (UTC) |
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*I am sure this will be narrowed down precisely, but the earliest tweet i've seen so far mentioning the explosions was at 13:01 UTC. / ETA 13:00 --''']''' • <small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-3.2ex;*left:-5.5ex;">]</span></sup></small> 17:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 December 2024 == |
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:I suspect we'll be waiting a while for clarity given the pace of reporting, but at the moment I'm seeing reports of an initial wave of near-simultaneous explosions, followed by a smaller number of explosions occurring over roughly one hour. (It would make sense for Israel to aim for simultaneity; maintaining the element of surprise for maximum effect.) I'll review the available sources. <span style="border: 1px solid red; padding: 2px;">]</span> 18:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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{{edit extended-protected|2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks|answered=yes}} |
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== lithium batteries == |
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Under the Heading "Casualties" the article states that Al Jazeera, a pro Muslim and historically anti-Jewish, Anti-Israel newspaper states that "the Lebanese Labour Minister from Hezbollah, said that over 4,000 civilians were injured from the attacks." and does not follow up to state the fact that the Labor Minister, Al Jazeera and Hezbollah all consider Jews and Israel their arch nemesis. There are many articles from sources like the Lieber Report, the West Point military strategy magazine or The Center for Strategic Studies who speak about in their article that Hezbollah's command and control were disrupted by the pager attack, thus verifying that if you were carrying a Hezbollah pager, you were likely Hezbollah operative. Many other articles if you peel away from the lock step media (CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, New York Times, Al Jazeera, AP, Reuters and PBS.) find the attack to be the most precision attack cause mass casualties to a military opponent in History, with minimal civilian collateral damage. ] (]) 07:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{partly done}}:<!-- Template:EEp --> I have added additional context to the Background section explaining that Hezbollah and Israel are historic enemies. If you want any other changes made, please request those changes in a {{tq|Change "A" to "B"}} format. Thanks – ] 22:14, 28 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== CBS journalism deep dive 3 months on == |
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We're currently speculating that the lithium batteries exploded, but that's contradicted by the cited AP article which says: “A lithium ion battery fire is one thing, but I’ve never seen one explode like that. It looks like a small explosive charge” |
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Looks like there is a 15-minute deep journalism TV segment being aired later today by the ] journalists at ]. Appears it will include interview with a pseudonymous Israel Mossad agent. Here's the source for the upcoming segment, but not the segment itself: , CBS News, 20 December 2024. Could potentially have some newly uncovered information in ] that could improve the article. ] (]) 14:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Maybe we should remove the speculation about lithium batteries. ] (]) 19:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:Link to the full 14 minute interview segment: , ], 22 December 2023, retrieved 23 December 2023. It was actually with two retired Mossad agents, including the commander of the project at Mossad. |
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{{outdent}} Here is a print journalism source from a military analysis publication about revelations about how the operations pager/walkie talkie attacks were planned, based on the Mossad agent interviews: , The Warzone, 23 December 2024. This source may be easier to use than the video source for improving the article. ] (]) 02:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Death damage to the milita/terror org == |
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:People are also claiming "PETN" has been used, based on the 1996 operation with the exploding phone I would assume they would use RDX as it's proven with reliable electronic detonation. |
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:https://x.com/vcdgf555/status/1836108274716021204 |
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:It just seems strange to me that you would make your detonation potentially unreliable by not using electronic detonation that could be targeted with specific POCSAG pager device IDs. ] (]) 19:36, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::https://x.com/charles_lister/status/1836109363968176175 |
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::I'm skeptical of the claims relating to overheating the battery to initiate detonation solely because it seems like a horrible choice if you are already capable of putting explosives into the pager. ] (]) 19:38, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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At this two days: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bj7izdk6r ] (]) 06:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:We have a source that mentions lithium batteries as source for the explosion. Until we have information to rule this out, it should stay. PS. Reports are that the exploding pager is a "Gold Alpha Pager 924" from "Apollo Systems". This device is powered by AAA batteries. The compromised device would still need to work until detonated, which speaks in favor of a battery explosion. If the AAA batteries are lihium ion and compromised to e.g. be made without pressure relief vents, and to start a thermal runaway if their charging current exceeds a given threshold, then this could well lead to the observed effect. At least, this cannot be ruled out at this stage. ] (]) 19:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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Under the Heading "Casualties" the article states that Al Jazeera, a pro Muslim and historically anti-Jewish, Anti-Israel newspaper states that "the Lebanese Labour Minister from Hezbollah, said that over 4,000 civilians were injured from the attacks." and does not follow up to state the fact that the Labor Minister, Al Jazeera and Hezbollah all consider Jews and Israel their arch nemesis. There are many articles from sources like the Lieber Report, the West Point military strategy magazine Lieber or The Center for Strategic Studies who speak about in their article that Hezbollah's command and control were disrupted by the pager attack, thus verifying that if you were carrying a Hezbollah pager, you were likely Hezbollah operative. Many other articles if you peel away from the lock step media (CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, New York Times, Al Jazeera, AP, Reuters and PBS.) find the attack to be the most precision attack cause mass casualties to a military opponent in History, with minimal civilian collateral damage. LionofYehuda (talk) 07:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion met
Partly done: I have added additional context to the Background section explaining that Hezbollah and Israel are historic enemies. If you want any other changes made, please request those changes in a 