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Untitled section

Changed "Mr." to "Dr." Rmpfu89 18:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Allegations of Aiding Milosevic

Taking this discussion to the Talk page. I kindly maintain that a politician's statements (in this case Hashim Thaci's) should never be taken face value and be added under the Controversies section of another politician's BLP. Is there any other evidence, journalistic investigation, etc. that supports Thaci's statement in connection with Berisha aiding Milosevic. If not, it would seem to me such a statement is fabricated and section needs to be deleted.

Something contradicting in this article

There is something contradicting in this article, how can one be an atheist and a Muslim at the same time. It is suggested in this article. Friday 16 February 2007 19:57 (CET)

Berisha is a declared Atheist just like roughly 80% of Albanian politicians. Some people make the mistake of assigning a religion to them by analyzing their names and surnames. But this is not the case anymore. Names in Albania don't show a person's religion, not for at least the last 50 years. Albania is a country of 60-75% Atheists/Agnostics. Everyone is by default considered an Atheist unless he has explicitly declared himself a Muslim or a Christian (where the Orthodox Christians have the majority of believers and depending on the polls they are followed either by Catholics, either by Muslims). Being religious in Albania is the exception, not the norm. This stands a bit as clarification for those reverting the religion field in the article. -- Dimror 14:05, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

According to 2011 Census only 2.50% of Albanians declared themselves as Atheists, 58.79% "explicitly declared" themselves Muslim and 16.99% "explicitly declared" themselves Christian. While it is true that religion doesn't play much role to majority of Albanians UserDimror's claim that "Albania is a country of 60-75% Atheists/Agnostics" is proven false by the responses of Albanian people in the 2011 Census (by the way, if one looks to UserDimror's page one will see that he is suspected of sockpuppetry).89.189.146.118 (talk) 19:24, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

This sentence:

He somewhat affronted Ramiz Alia, the country's Communist leader, with such a need in a tense meeting Alia had with intellectuals in the middle of that year

is confusing. Maybe the phrase with such a need migrated there from somewhere else? I'm not sure the sentence is necessary, since the next sentence doesn't explain the affront or talk about its consequences.

-- Lucy Kemnitzer

Religion

Sali Berisha has never declared his religion. Just because of his name, it doesn't mean that he is a Muslim, at least this rule doesn't apply to Albanians, as user Dimror said above:

Berisha is a declared Atheist just like roughly 80% of Albanian politicians. Some people make the mistake of assigning a religion to them by analyzing their names and surnames. But this is not the case anymore. Names in Albania don't show a person's religion, not for at least the last 50 years. Albania is a country of 60-75% Atheists/Agnostics. Everyone is by default considered an Atheist unless he has explicitly declared himself a Muslim or a Christian (where the Orthodox Christians have the majority of believers and depending on the polls they are followed either by Catholics, either by Muslims). Being religious in Albania is the exception, not the norm. This stands a bit as clarification for those reverting the religion field in the article.

So, for those who are changing his religion, please discus in here before you change it. This means to bring facts to the table where he identifies himself as a Muslim. Thank you.--kedadi (talk) 18:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Could you please provide some proof that says he is atheist. Unfortunately, we can't use User:Dimror's as proof. I've given a source that says he is Muslim. I never assumed he is Muslim because of his name; I assumed he is Muslim because that's what it says in the source I provided. This is same guy who pushed for Albania's entry into the Organisation of the Islamic Conference. --Local hero 22:40, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

There's also an article here that says Berisha is a Muslim (in the third paragraph): --Local hero 22:41, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Below I'll try to give you a better anwser:

Could you please provide some proof that says he is atheist.

• Regarding Albanians (probably in general, but lets say for Albanians because of the specific case), one by default is Agnostic unless said otherwise. And I don't mean by it, that they hate god/religions, but they simply are not committed to any religion. For example, I personally am not committed to any religion, as an Albanian.

Unfortunately, we can't use User:Dimror's as proof.

• We don't have to. I just pointed out to him because of his explanation in the talk page, anyways this may help you: Albania#Religion.

I've given a source that says he is Muslim. I never assumed he is Muslim because of his name; I assumed he is Muslim because that's what it says in the source I provided.

• Unfortunately I don't seem to find anything regarding Sali Berisha's religion on the link you provided.

This is same guy who pushed for Albania's entry into the Organisation of the Islamic Conference.

• Yes, that true. I think that Albania entered OIC because of Economical Interests rather than Religious Interests.

There's also an article here that says Berisha is a Muslim (in the third paragraph):

• I think they have made the same mistake from his name or maybe because they want him to be so (you know, the site seems to be a Saudi one). Anytime when there is a Religious Holiday of any religion, he as a Prime Minister congratulates people of that religion because of the Freedom of religion in Albania. I personally have never seen him to attend a mosque and prey, in lets say for a major Muslim Holiday like Eid ul-Fitr (known in Albanian as Bajram).

Thank you.--kedadi (talk) 23:37, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The part that says he is Muslim is at the very bottom of page 146. --Local hero 00:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

This is the link that I'm following, am I right? I can't find anything relevant on that link--kedadi (talk) 09:00, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's the link. It's right at the bottom of page 146. This is what it says:

...the president, who himself is a Muslim, argued that the country.... --Local hero 15:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

He prayed in the mosk in 1991 --Vinie007 15:15, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

In the given sources his religion is of trivial importance and is simply mentioned without any specifics.He himself has never made any declaration about his religion in public.He was member of the Albanian Labour Party wich demanded from the members not just atheism but hostility to religion in general.The claim that he is muslim comes only from his Islamic sounding name.The Albanian page also does not mention his religion so I dont think why should the english page should mention it. Vargmali (talk) 21:29, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Most of the sources I've found state that he is Muslim and then go into detail about his actions that helped strengthen Albania's ties to the Islamic world. I can't find any self-declaration, but I'm not sure if we need that to be able to call him a Muslim. Nonetheless, I'll take it out of the infobox and put a sentence or two about how he is seen as a Muslim by many sources in the 'Personal life' section. --Local hero 18:31, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

He is a pragmatist oportunist and he established relations with the Islamic world bacause he needed investments from Gulf Sheiks.Here in Albania religion has a very different meaning from in most of the world(It basically refers to your family's historical heritage not what you actually practice or if you even belive in god) so it would be very confusing for international readers Vargmali 20:57, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I think my latest edit is a good solution: it does not state that he is or is not Muslim, but that he has been called a Muslim by others. --Local hero 23:09, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

By the way, according to 2011 Census only 2.50% of Albanians declared themselves as Atheists, 58.79% "explicitly declared" themselves Muslim and 16.99% "explicitly declared" themselves Christian. While it is true that religion doesn't play much role to majority of Albanians, UserDimror's claim that "Albania is a country of 60-75% Atheists/Agnostics" is proven false by the responses of Albanian people in the 2011 Census (by the way, if one looks to UserDimror's page one will see that he is suspected of sockpuppetry).89.189.146.118 (talk) 19:25, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

There's something for sure. His son, Shkelzen, is absolutely a Muslim. He is seen praying in Mosques many times Piro ilir (talk) 15:06, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Royalist Party Affiliate

Sali Berisha is a Royalist Party Affiliate according to valid articles. Does anyone have more information on this?

Twillisjr (talk) 15:09, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

References

1. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/10/17/albania-to-bring-home-from-france-remains-exiled-king-zogu/

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Sali Berisha it's very strong

Sali Berisha it's very strong 24.228.129.117 (talk) 18:28, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

conspiracy theory

@EvergreenFir - @FierakuiVërtet and @S.G ReDark are trying to push a conspiracy theory that "Berisha has helped Milosevic" during the Yugoslav wars, allegations that are not based on facts, but rather on statements from a Kosovo politician (who interestingly enough now faces trial for war crimes in the Hague). This is basically what got me blocked, from a substance perspective. Could you provide guidance on how I can keep these editors from including conspiracy theories on BLPs? Albwiki001 (talk) 12:07, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Nope I'm not trying to push conspiracies or anything like that, which is funny since you use conspiracies and assumptions to justify your edits in the discussions we held before. Ironically the "politician" you are referring (who's Hashim Thaçi) was the commander of KLA and not just "some politician" as you said. What got you blocked is that you broke the tree-revert rule. S.G ReDark (talk) 13:44, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

You are pushing conspiracy theories, simple as that. Also, please learn proper English, it is not "political", but "politician".

Also, Hashim Thaci is being tried at the Hague for war crimes. Just because he said it, or any other politician said it, it doesn't make it true. There needs to be investigative reporting from an unbiased outlet. I suggest you voluntarily remove this conspiracy theory before I escalate within Misplaced Pages in a way that will harm your reputation as an editor. Albwiki001 (talk) 13:57, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

@Albwiki001 I'm running low on patience. A few things:

• You were blocked for violating WP:3RR, nothing else.
• Edit warring has a broader definition than 3RR and continuing to revert content after being blocking for that same action is unwise at best.
• Do not accuse others of bad faith without good evidence. This includes saying people are pushing conspiracy theories.
• Do not mock others for their English aptitude
• Do not threaten other editors.

I will copy-paste this to your user talk page as a final warning too. EvergreenFir (talk) 15:45, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir - I am maintaining the highest standards and holding editors accountable. If you don't like it and get triggered, that's not my problem. Albwiki001 (talk) 15:50, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm leaving this here for everyone to see that @EvergreenFir, a Misplaced Pages admin, considers the removing of unsourced claims that Berisha has aided Milosevic, "edits didn't break any rules". I kindly maintain that these are political attacks of one politician against another. If @EvergreenFir believes this is the bar of what constitutes a Controversy for a Misplaced Pages BLP, I disagree and maintain that the bar is set pretty low.

I also kindly invite everyone reading this to review the language @FierakuiVërtet and @S.G ReDark have removed from Edi Rama's page. There's a paragraph I added couple years ago that talks about how Rama benefited from, and was involved in an illegal political donation to a U.S. Presidential campaign. Sources include DOJ press releases (people pleading guilty in federal court) and reporting from Politico. They've removed this paragraph for no reason, and so far have gotten away with it. Misplaced Pages admins, such as @EvergreenFir, are likely OK with such censorship, since neither @FierakuiVërtet nor @S.G ReDark have faced any repercursions. Albwiki001 (talk) 19:07, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh - I saw you reverted my edits and included the conspiracy theory Fieraku and SGRedark are pushing on this BLP. Do you have anything that supports what's claimed, or just going around and spreading misinformation? Albwiki001 (talk) 12:43, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I reviewed your talk page and this discussion. There's clearly nothing I can say that will get you to relent on trying to remove it. What I will say is that you were warned by an admin who reviewed the content and found that it was acceptable. I'll simply copy what they said at your talk page;

The edits in question are sourced and providing a quotation from another important politician. That does not break the rules. If you think it violates BLP, go to WP:BLPN and see if others agree.

You don't get to keep removing something because you don't like it. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:48, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh - Then maybe let the admin take action instead of volunteering to spread misinformation and conspiracy theories? Is that so difficult to do? Your edits are not making Misplaced Pages any better, they're making it a cesspool of conspiracy theories. Berisha is the leader of opposition in Albania. I haven't seen any evidence supporting claims that he's aided Milosevic, if you've seen I kindly invite you to add. Until then, this is just a conspiracy theory that you're helping spread. Albwiki001 (talk) 12:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

So then...

• recognize this is not proving anything, just reporting on a notable statement
• provide sources that dispute the info mentioned
• stop instantly attacking everybody (you've made several remarks towards me already)
• convince others on the talk page with said sources and with an attitude that doesn't push people away
• stop repeatedly removing content after being warned by an admin until consensus is established
• take it to WP:BLPN, as instructed by the admin, if talk page discussion doesn't ban out and the content violated WP:BLP

Misplaced Pages is a collaborative effort. You can't just tell people to piss off, as you've telling me now, because you disagree with them. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:02, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Hashim Thaçi was the political leader of the Kosovo Liberation Army. His words are notable, whether you like it or not. Besides he added that these statements reflected the official position of the Kosovo presidency.FierakuiVërtet (talk) 17:57, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Hashim Thaci is facing trial in the Hague for war crimes. He has no credibility and his words are just political attacks. Do you have any other evidence that Berisha aided Milosevic, or just cheap talk? Albwiki001 (talk) 19:09, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

The fact that he is facing a trial means nothing. He was the political leader of the Kosovo Liberation Army and president of the Republic of Kosovo, his words are really notable. We are just reporting them.

I think you should start reading Misplaced Pages policies because it seems you didn't understand what is considered notable, and what not.

One last time: we are not trying to prove anything here. Just reporting a notable statement(allegation) as per wp. Do you understand? FierakuiVërtet (talk) 18:18, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Notable statements and reports published by reliable sources might be added but WP:NPOV must be followed. Who said what, who reported what and so on must be cited. Please use WP:GoodFaith. Thanks Bes-ARTTalk 13:37, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@Bes-ART: It is what I did. Read the paragraph. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 14:47, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but you should include Berisha's response otherwise it's not NPOV. He also made some statements about the matter and many sources claim that the whole story was a political attack. If you ask me there are a lot of independent media outlets that have done a better job of explaining the story. Bes-ARTTalk 18:51, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@Bes-ART - Could you opine on whether it's worth keeping this "controversy" on SB's WP page or if it violates the policy on BLP? I don't think the allegations of one politician against another alone with no further journalistic investigation should be the standard for including a controversy, and tried to remove but wasn't able to. Admins said I was the minority opinion in this one. Albwiki001 (talk) 12:43, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

@Albwiki001 and @FierakuiVërtet I don't want to enter whether one politician is more credible than another. In fact, I try not to get involved in controversial edits about active politicians at all. The "accusation" is not new, and Thaçi isn't neither the first nor the last to make such statements. So the section could get longer and longer if we want to include such a statement. What I could suggest to you and others is that for the better of this article avoid interviews, statements, opinions, news, primary sources, etc. and focus on providing better academic works and independent institutions opinions. At least on the UN oil and arms embargo, we have plenty of solid sources to use and improve the article. For example and many others. But as I said, I prefer to stay away from in-depth editing of active politician articles, as I prefer not to use the media or newspapers mentioned here for such issues. They simply do not have the independence needed to be used for such issues. Bes-ARTTalk 17:39, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

@Bes-ART: If you ask me: there are numerous reports from official sources confirming that Albania did break the arm and oil embargo and that the government was heavily involved. However, you can add Berisha's response and if you have sources (media outlets) that claim this is just a political attack, go on and add them. Please, don't include Gazeta 55, Syri tv and Exit.al. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 10:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Why not Gazetta 55, SyriTv, and Exit.Al then? You used Top Channel which has a bias as well all news papers have a bias to them. Using Top channel does not simply mean it's more proven then the ones you mentioned. Like that we will have to look at specific articles in a more detailed grasp. Even if Hashim Thaci is right or wrong a "notable leader" does not simply mean he is right. We would have to see official documents with the logic of not using specific news papers. Gjondeda (talk) 00:19, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

We are not proving anything. We are just reporting allegations from a notable figure per Misplaced Pages's policies.

Top Channel is the most reliable media outlet in the country. Gazeta 55, Syri tv and exit.al are blatantly pro-Berisha.

FierakuiVërtet (talk) 15:11, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

@BES-Art: Thanks, I will definitely look into them. If you have others please add it in here. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 08:31, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Even if they are that does not simply mean top channel doesn’t have a bias. Top channel is known for being pro Rama to begin with. Just because you consider it a Reliable source. Again you aren’t placing a npov but only one sides view. You even tried to remove controversial figures over Rama. You seem to have avoided my question I asked you. How does Hashim Thaci prove to be a “notable leader” give you proof that it’s reliable info? Gjondeda (talk) 20:46, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Since when Top Channel is pro-Rama? Top Channel is many things but not that. What was removed in Rama's page was heavily discussed in that talk page, so no FierakuiVërtet isn't POV-pushing. Hashim Thaçi was the commander of UÇK and the main figure behind that organisation although I have to admit I haven't found many information online about this event, FierakuiVërtet if you are reading this, I suggest adding Berisha's reaction of this controversy for the sake to avoid another dispute :p S.G ReDark (talk) 01:57, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

@S.G ReDark:I will FierakuiVërtet (talk) 05:52, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

@S.G ReDark: On second thought, I think it is better to do as @BES-Art: said. There are plenty of official sources reporting these facts and we can simply add them. Therefore, I'm ok with deleting the Hashim Thaçi part. Do you agree too? FierakuiVërtet (talk) 19:45, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Yeah of course. S.G ReDark (talk) 22:01, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Ok, then I am removing it. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 10:52, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Do you still have the sources I sent you? If you need some help just let me know. S.G ReDark (talk) 01:04, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes of course, I have them in the history of my talk page;) FierakuiVërtet (talk) 05:31, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

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