| Revision as of 19:27, 18 October 2024 edit45.37.105.227 (talk) →Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2024: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Reply← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 16:08, 2 January 2025 edit undoAndreJustAndre (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users40,582 editsm Reverted 1 edit by 2A02:9130:FE13:A7D1:1816:A825:2852:39E6 (talk) to last revision by Lowercase sigmabot IIITags: Twinkle Undo |
| (39 intermediate revisions by 17 users not shown) |
| Line 59: |
Line 59: |
|
* RM, Jews → Jewish people, '''Not moved''', 10 October 2017, ] |
|
* RM, Jews → Jewish people, '''Not moved''', 10 October 2017, ] |
|
* RM, Jews → Jewish people, '''Not moved''', 29 April 2018, ] |
|
* RM, Jews → Jewish people, '''Not moved''', 29 April 2018, ] |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{Press |
|
|
|author = Len Sander |
|
|
|title = Bericht: So soll Misplaced Pages von Anti-Israel-Aktivisten unterwandert worden sein (Report: Misplaced Pages allegedly infiltrated by anti-Israel activists) |
|
|
|trans-title = Report: Misplaced Pages allegedly infiltrated by anti-Israel activists |
|
|
|date = October 25, 2024 |
|
|
|org = ] |
|
|
|url = https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/politik-gesellschaft/bericht-so-soll-wikipedia-von-anti-israel-aktivisten-unterwandert-worden-sein-li.2265970 |
|
|
|lang = |
|
|
|quote = Even though most of these changes have been reversed - the English-language version of the article on the subject of Jews, for example, contains the link to the historical Kingdom of Israel - the effect of concerted online campaigns should not be underestimated. |
|
|
|archiveurl = |
|
|
|archivedate = <!-- do not wikilink --> |
|
|
|accessdate = December 5, 2024 |
|
|
|
|
|
|author2 = Debbie Weiss |
|
|
|title2 = Misplaced Pages’s Quiet Revolution: How a Coordinated Group of Editors Reshaped the Israeli-Palestinian Narrative |
|
|
|date2 = December 4, 2024 |
|
|
|org2 = ] |
|
|
|url2 = https://www.algemeiner.com/2024/12/04/wikipedias-quiet-revolution-how-coordinated-group-editors-reshaped-israeli-palestinian-narrative/ |
|
|
|lang2 = |
|
|
|quote2 = In an article on “Jews,” for example, an editor removed the phrase “Land of Israel” from a key sentence on the origin of Jewish people. The article’s short description (that appears on search results) was changed from “Ethnoreligious group and nation from the Levant” to “Ethnoreligious group and cultural community.” |
|
|
|archiveurl2 = |
|
|
|archivedate2 = <!-- do not wikilink --> |
|
|
|accessdate2 = December 5, 2024 |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{archives|]|nobot=yes}} |
|
{{archives|]|nobot=yes}} |
|
|
|
|
|
== Edit, Jews are not a race or ethnic group == |
|
== Non-White Jews == |
|
|
<s>We all know full well there are such things as Arab Jews. Why is there no data on all the Moroccon Jews? They all exist. But we only recognise the Ashkenazi Jews (Modern Israel Jews)</s> Issue resolved ] (]) 00:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
:Not sure what you mean. We have several articles on ] and ], ], and so on. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 03:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
Edit, Jews are not a race or an ethnic group |
|
|
|
::@] |
|
|
::Ik, but shouldn't it be part of the bigger article on the Jews? ] (]) 03:24, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Sure, of course, ''Mizrahim'' occurs at least 7 times on this page, North Africa at least 20 times ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 03:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:Moroccan Jews are mentioned in five places in the article. In addition, there's a section titled "]". So it isn't clear what your concern is. ] (]) 13:13, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::@] oh ok nvm ] (]) 13:21, 28 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Not the only Israelites that had kept their distinct identity (See: ]) == |
|
"A reevaluation of the anthropological genetics literature on Jewish populations reveals them not |
|
|
simply to be a body of genetically related people descending from a small group of common |
|
|
ancestors, but rather a “mosaic” of peoples of diverse origins. Greek and other pre-medieval |
|
|
historiographic sources suggest the patterning evident in recent genetic studies could be |
|
|
explained by a major contribution from Greco-Roman and Anatolian-Byzantine converts who |
|
|
affiliated themselves with some iteration of Judaism beginning in the first and second |
|
|
centuries ce and continuing into the Middle Ages. These populations, along with Babylonian and |
|
|
Alexandrian Jewish communities, indigenous North Africans, and Slavic-speaking converts to |
|
|
Judaism, support a mosaic geography of Jewish ancestry in Europe and Western Asia, rather |
|
|
than one arising from a limited set of lineages originating solely in Palestine." |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Name and etymology: "After the Exile, the term ''Yehudi'' (Jew) was used for all followers of Judaism because the survivors of the Exile (who were the former residents of the Kingdom of Judah) were the only Israelites that had kept their distinct identity as the ] from the ] had ] and assimilated into other populations." |
|
See |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This claim is not totally true and misleading. ] are crying in the corner. ] (]) 08:02, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/702709?journalCode=jar |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== What’s with the glazing in the last paragraph? == |
|
The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis.pdf |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
“Jews wrote the Bible, founded Christianity, and had an indirect but profound influence on Islam.” |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Not only does this sentence contain somewhat misleading (or at least incomplete) phrasing for the first two parts, but the language itself seems to be leaning towards ]. The preceding sentence is sufficient. |
|
Also there is no Jüdische Typus |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lmk if I’m totally off base here, this is just my perception ] (]) 07:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
"It has been argued that Jews are not genomically distinct from non-Jews." |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:Seems fine to me, literally true statements, no puffery detected. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 07:32, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
Eran Elhaik, https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/genetics/articles/10.3389/fgene.2016.00141/full In Search of the jüdische Typus: A Proposed Benchmark to Test the Genetic Basis of Jewishness Challenges Notions of “Jewish Biomarkers, Frontiers of Genetics Vol.7, 5 August 2016: ‘Claims that Jews can be accurately distinguished from non-Jews . . and carry “Jewish heritage” in their DNA . . are . .frequently made. Supporters of the alternative school have consistently dismissed any racial notion of Jews over the past centuries, citing the ongoing failures to provide a robust test for Jewishness and the rich historical, archeological, and linguistic evidence for Jews’ history of assimilations and mixtures with non-Jewish populations rather than seclusion periods. This position can be summarized as: “A Jew is a Jew because he chose to be a Jew and not because he was forced – because of biology or by some external social force – to define himself as a Jew”.’ |
|
|
|
::Alright, perhaps I was mistaken. I still think it might be beneficial to reword it in a way that doesn’t oversimplify things as much. ] (]) 11:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::How would you want to reword it? ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 22:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
https://en.wikipedia.org/Genetic_studies_of_Jews |
|
|
|
::::"Jews authored the Bible, established Christianity, and influenced Islam." <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span>🍁 01:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::::Seems fine to me. ''']'''<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">]</span> 01:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
] (]) 01:24, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
::::: The first two clauses seems mostly a substitution of longer words for shorter ones, with no apparent change in meaning or other improvement I can see. As far as the last clause, given that Islam is one of the three ], and the many links mentioned in the lead paragraph of ], the word ''profound'' seems an accurate description, and not puffery. |
|
|
|
|
|
::::: To the IP: a short, assertive statement in the ] is not an oversimplification, if it is a summary of content in the body of the article that demonstrates that the lead statement is correct and lays out the most important points without all the details excected in the body. Not everything can be crammed into the lead; remember that ] is just a summary of the most important points of the body, and that sentence seems fine for the lead. {{ec}} ] (]) 01:50, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
:{{not done}}. Although there's a correlation, neither "race" nor "ethnic group" typically refer to populations which are exclusively bounded by genetics. See our articles on ] and ]. ] (]) 02:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
:::::Agree with Mathglot. ] (]) 02:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
:That's not exactly the case. European Jews are all practically the same genetic group,but Ashkenazim do have a percentage of at least 20% Slavic+Germanic which makes them a bit different from Italkim, Sephardim, and Romaniotes, but other than that they're mostly all southern European and Levantine. They also cluster quite close to Mizrahim such as Iraqi Jews from what I've read, but when it comes to Yemenites and Ethiopians, then it becomes a bit confusing. |
|
|
:In the end though, ethnicities aren't really defined by genetics in the first place,so it's mostly culture and religion. ] (]) 17:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:We are an in fact an ethnic group. Stop trying to erase our history. Enough. |
|
|
:The argument presented here seems to cherry-pick findings from genetic studies to push an agenda that diminishes the validity of Jewish ethnicity. By focusing solely on genetic diversity within Jewish populations, it disregards the broader context of Jewish identity, which encompasses a rich tapestry of ], ], and ]. |
|
|
:Reducing Jewishness to a mere collection of genetic markers overlooks the lived experiences and shared history that have shaped Jewish communities for centuries. It perpetuates a reductionist view that undermines the complexity of Jewish identity and ignores the cultural, religious, and historical factors that bind Jewish people together. |
|
|
:Moreover, the dismissal of the concept of a "Jewish Typus" and the assertion that Jews are not "genomically distinct" from non-Jews without acknowledging the broader context of Jewish history and identity is deeply troubling. It not only overlooks the resilience of Jewish communities in maintaining their distinctiveness throughout history but also echoes ] that seeks to delegitimize Jewish identity. |
|
|
:This argument not only fails to provide a comprehensive understanding of Jewish ethnicity but also risks perpetuating harmful stereotypes and biases against Jewish people. It's important to approach discussions about Jewish identity with nuance and sensitivity, recognizing the multifaceted nature of Jewishness beyond genetic markers. |
|
|
:In addition, I must point out what I feel is utmost hypocrisy. |
|
|
:1. '''Selective Application of Identity''': People who argue that Jews are solely a religious group often ignore the fact that Jewish identity is not simply religion, in fact the religion itself centers around the ethnic and tribal identity of the jewish people, the practices itself center around the Land of Israel, that is what it is. One example is the ], plus the ], etc. |
|
|
:2.'''Ignoring Historical Prejudice''': Historically, Jews have faced discrimination and persecution based on their ethnicity, regardless of their religious beliefs. Anti-Semitic rhetoric often targets Jews as a racial or ethnic group, regardless of whether they practice Judaism. Denying the ethnic dimension of Jewish identity while perpetuating stereotypes and prejudice against Jews as a group is contradictory. |
|
|
:Disregarding Self-Identification: Many Jews identify strongly with their ethnic or cultural heritage, even if they are not religiously observant. Dismissing Jewish identity as purely religious disregards the self-identification and lived experiences of Jewish individuals and communities who see themselves as part of a broader ethnic or cultural group. |
|
|
:3.'''Double Standards''': Those who claim Jews are only a religious group may fail to apply the same logic to other religious communities. For example, they may acknowledge the ethnic or cultural aspects of other religious groups, such as Muslims or Hindus, while denying the same complexity to Jews. This double standard reveals a bias against Jews and undermines the consistent application of principles of identity and diversity in ]. |
|
|
:The other thing I notice is the ] of you attempting to deny the racial or ethnic dimension of Jewish identity in order to justify speaking about Jews as a unified group, ]. ] (]) 15:00, 24 May 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::Can't see a single source in all that wall of opinion text. Only ones I can see are by OP. ] (]) 15:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::{{reply to|Yamnaya|Selfstudier}} Note that before the first reply to this request the OP was blocked as one of the many recent socks of ]. ] was just protected for 6 months because of this editor and similarly themed edits. I suggest that we collapse this thread. ] (]) 18:21, 24 May 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::Sock or not, I would still like to see a proper response to the points made. With sources. I understand that Elhaik might be somewhat controversial, so if we had a couple sources saying that research is fringe or at least not mainstream, that might do. Idk anything about the first one but same idea. OR should the discussion be at the genetics article? ] (]) 18:26, 24 May 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::Now I see that there is a collapsed thread there in the genetics article that I think maybe should not actually be collapsed. ] (]) 18:38, 24 May 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::Yep, I will take my concerns there, so can go ahead and collapse this one here. ] (]) 18:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::I promise I am not that person, Nor am I a sockpuppet. This is an IP address, and a densely populated neighborhood. ] (]) 20:32, 24 May 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Thats why its my opinion. With all due respect I have never used this site before in this manner, but I found the comment I was responding to, to be incredibly offensive and bordering on antisemtism. Perhaps my bias is apparent and I can recuse myself if you'd like. ] (]) 20:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:Eran's work along with the Khazar theory had largely been debunked. Good try though. ] (]) 00:35, 31 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:{{tq|"It has been argued that Jews are not genomically distinct from non-Jews."}} |
|
|
:# "It has been argued that" is far from conclusive information. |
|
|
:# My genetic test assessed my genetic makeup as somewhere between 96% and 98% Ashkenazi Jewish, consistent with my emergence from four Ashkenazi grandparents. They must have some idea of what, at least, distinguishes Ashkenazi genetics to have been able to classify me as that and not, say, Slavic or German, don't you think? I know that's ] but I think it, along with my first point, reasonably suggests to me that you might be cherry-picking and grasping. |
|
|
:] (]) 00:53, 31 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Edit request == |
|
|
|
|
|
{{editprotected|ans=y}} |
|
|
|
|
|
Please add a hatnote to handle the incoming redirects {{noredirect|Juden}}, {{noredirect|Juifs}}, {{noredirect|Juives}}. |
|
|
|
|
|
Please add: |
|
|
|
|
|
{{tlx|redirect-multi|3|Juden|Juifs|Juives|other uses|Juive|and|Juif|and|Jude|and|Juden (disambiguation)}} |
|
|
|
|
|
{{redirect-multi|3|Juden|Juifs|Juives|other uses|Juive|and|Juif|and|Jude|and|Juden (disambiguation)}} |
|
|
|
|
|
-- ] (]) 15:42, 28 June 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:{{done}} ] (]) 05:04, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2024 == |
|
|
|
|
|
{{Edit extended-protected|Jews|answered=yes}} |
|
|
Please change "After the Exile, the term Yehudi (Jew) was used for all followers of Judaism because the survivors of the Exile (who were the former residents of the Kingdom of Judah) were the only Israelites that had kept their distinct identity as the ten tribes from the northern Kingdom of Israel had been scattered and assimilated into other populations." |
|
|
to |
|
|
" After the Exile, the term Yehudi (Jew) was used for all followers of Judaism, because the survivors of the Exile (who were the former residents of the Kingdom of Judah) were the only Israelites that had kept their distinct identity as religious jews; the ten tribes from the northern Kingdom of Israel had been scattered and assimilated into other populations." ] (]) 12:46, 21 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 00:07, 22 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::I am not the original author, but it seems that the intent of the proposed change would just fix unclear writing, not add/remove any factual information. ] (]) 19:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
“Jews wrote the Bible, founded Christianity, and had an indirect but profound influence on Islam.”
Not only does this sentence contain somewhat misleading (or at least incomplete) phrasing for the first two parts, but the language itself seems to be leaning towards glazing. The preceding sentence is sufficient.
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
.svg){kind=small}
