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Revision as of 01:26, 25 May 2007 editCultural Freedom (talk | contribs)1,294 edits →Name of article← Previous edit Latest revision as of 07:53, 11 December 2024 edit undoGråbergs Gråa Sång (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers57,993 edits →top: more press 
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{{comment|There have been huge disputes over the naming of this article. Per '''multiple''' discussions, '''yoghurt''' has been established as the spelling to use, most often due to lack of consensus. Please, barring a change in the rules of the Manual of Style, avoid bringing up the spelling as redundancy has already aggravated some users.}}
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{{Old moves|list=
<p>'''See also''' ]


* RM #1, {{no redirect| Yoghurt}} -> {{no redirect|Yogurt}}, Abandoned discussion; no consensus, 12 May 2005, ]
*]
* RM #2, {{no redirect| Yoghurt}} -> {{no redirect|Yogurt}}, '''Move to Yogurt''', 10 October 2006, ]
*]
* RM #3, {{no redirect| Yoghurt}} -> {{no redirect|Yogurt}} Revisited, '''no consensus, defaulting to keep at Yoghurt.''', 26 October 2006, ]
*]
* RM #4, {{no redirect| Yoghurt}} -> {{no redirect|Yogurt}} , '''No consensus''', 21 May 2007, ]
* RM #5, {{no redirect| Yoghurt}} -> {{no redirect|Yogurt}} , "Not enough consensus"; '''page not moved''', 21 June 2009, ]
* RM #6, {{no redirect| Yoghurt}} -> {{no redirect|Yogurt}} , '''Delisted''', 6 July 2009, ]
* RM #7, {{no redirect| Yoghurt}} -> {{no redirect|Yogurt}}, '''No consensus''', 27 October 2011, ]
* RM #8, {{no redirect| Yoghurt}} -> {{no redirect|Yogurt}}, '''Moved''', 10 December 2011, ]
|title1=Yogurt
|title2=Yoghurt
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{{Press
|author = Nathan Yau
|title = Decade-Long Battle for “Yogurt” vs. “Yoghurt” on Misplaced Pages
|date = June 26, 2024
|org = ]
|url = https://flowingdata.com/2024/06/26/decade-long-battle-for-yogurt-vs-yoghurt-on-wikipedia/
|lang = <!-- default is English -->
|quote = In 2002, a Misplaced Pages article for yogurt was created. Debates ensued.
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|accessdate = June 26, 2024


|author2 =
== Name of article ==
|title2 = The Depths of Wikipedians
|date2 = November 1, 2024
|org2 = Asterisk Magazine
|url2 = https://asteriskmag.com/issues/08/the-depths-of-wikipedians
|lang2 = <!-- default is English -->
|quote2 = Take the page for yogurt. The debate over whether to call it “yogurt” or “yoghurt” lasted seven years and totaled over 140,000 words. What happened there specifically, and what makes the process so inefficient in general?
|archiveurl2 = <!-- URL of an archived copy of the page, if the original URL becomes unavailable. -->
|archivedate2 = <!-- do not wikilink -->
|accessdate2 = December 11, 2024
}}


== "Swiss style" yogurt ==
I was told that user Danielfolsom violated Misplaced Pages policy (or guidelines or whatever) by engaging in a concerted "get out the vote" effort.


This appears to be a North American concept. A quick google produces mostly US and Canadian hits. The article should really clarify that this is a regional, not global, term. ] (]) 13:34, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Danielfolsom. Focus in particular on the period around 2007-05-16T02:01:25.


:Agreed. I don't see any sources cited for this term. The reference has been in there for 20 years; since the . I will ping that editor, {{ping|Collabi}}, as they are still active. As I was looking for the origin edit I did notice at some point there was a citation to a website now apparently defunct, and also it used to say the term is used in the US. But maybe we should say North America because here's a for it. --] ] 03:58, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
I was surprised that so many of the people who voted against changing to the sensible name (''Yogurt'') both 1) always show up on votes where they can keep a Commonwealth or British spelling (like Jooler), and 2) gave, as reasons, things that didn't make sense. (Note, I was also contacted about this vote, though I had already seen it.)


:::The use of 'Swiss style' and other allusions to Swiss yoghurt packaging was common in the UK in the 1960s (when yoghurt was much less commonly eaten here) and later - see pictures at https://www.skidairy.co.uk/story . It was probably meant to sound all very healthy and pure. As more and more companies started selling yoghurt, this fashion disappeared. But the yoghurt itself had nothing to do with Switzerland. ] (]) 08:36, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
I don't think punitive action should be taken against Danielfolsom, but the name issue should be dealt with fairly. The reason the issue keeps coming up is that the current name doesn't make sense. The solution isn't to get your orthographic anti-American friends together to shut down the polling process, but to take the question of the right name seriously. --] ] 2007-05-23 18:02 18:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
::::Are you sure? I just Googled for “yogurt in Switzerland” and found this statement on a : {{Quotation| The Swiss eat a lot of dairy products and yoghurts are no exception. Everyone eats them, and if you peeked into a fridge of a family with teenagers, it would probably be stacked with lots of yoghurts. Swiss yoghurts are stirred instead of strained (set), which results in a creamier consistency. In fact, if you Google stirred yoghurt, it often comes up as Swiss yoghurt. There are only a few exceptions to this in Switzerland; the chocolate, coffee and toffee yoghurts are set ones, all other ones are stirred.}} —] ] 16:42, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
:I don't want to censor any comments, so I'll leave it here, but I urge people not to respond to this: we've already wasted too much time talking about names. Sorry Cultural Freedom. —<span style="color: red;">] (])</span> 18:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
::I think Misplaced Pages has misattributed that very old diff. I didn't write the initial revisions of the article (nor that factoid about the swiss style); I just fixed some details about the science. ] (]) 23:58, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
::(No need for "sorry," I understand where you're coming from, though I disagree.) I urge people not to allow disgruntled tyrants to close down discussion on something that hasn't been allowed to reach its proper conclusion. If we address the question seriously, and without violating any Misplaced Pages guidelines, the issue can be put to rest once and for all, because it will have been put to rest in the right way. If we, on the other hand, allow irrational people obsessed with their favorite spellings to break rules and/or violate basic protocols of reasoned discourse, WP is harmed. --] ] 2007-05-23 18:15 18:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
While I think more research is required to find better sourcing before we cite the reference in the article, I think we've established the "swiss" usage exists and is not limited to the US or even to North America. --] ] 18:29, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
::: I support reopening discussion, the whole discussion efforts were blindsided by impropriety as soon as Danielfolsom began to manipulate the straw poll, absolutely childish. --] 18:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
:::: I'm sorry, but it will not happen. We have debated '''many, many, many''' times, and we're not doing it again. Please, just work on improving this article or another. —<span style="color: red;">] (])</span> 18:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC) :Hmm. I challenge you to find 'Swiss style' yogurt in a British supermarket, though Nestlé still use the old 'Ski' brand, which has vaguely Swiss connotations. I don't think the issue is important enough to make a fuss about though. --] (]) 16:40, 19 January 2023 (UTC)


== Production - hung sentence ==
:::::I also support reopening the discussion and completely agree with Cultural Freedom's argument above. It is a hallmark of Misplaced Pages that decisions, through consensus, are ultimately made based on logic and reason. That has not happened here because of the "disgruntled tyrants". All of the logic and reason with respect to the naming of this article supports the most common name used for this subject, and original name of this article: ''yogurt''. Anyone who genuinely wants the debate to end would support the name change, which is consistently shown to be the opinion shared by the majority of editors involved in these polls. --] 20:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
::::::Wait a second - what policy did I violate - I went through each previous discussion and just told people that voted that there was a discussion - I alreted both people that voted for yogurt and youghurt. That's absolute B.S. that your pushing there - Misplaced Pages is not a democracy - there are no votes, only discussions - so even if I did do a "get out the vote" thing, it wouldn't matter. Because you said exactly that I violated WP policy because I did a "get out the vote" thing, then I can assume that you don't have a specific policy to back you up.<small>]]</span></span></small> 22:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Second - per Misplaced Pages's policy on Consensus - you can't just do another discussion to try and get consensus - so you trying to push another debate is really worthless, because obviously anything could be reverted per policy.<small>]]</span></span></small> 22:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
::::::::Wow I'm not even done - just to let you know IP address - A) again, WP is not a democracy, it was not a straw poll but a discussion, per ], B) just out of curiousity - who are you? Because I noticed that the comment you just made was your first edit. Ever. So frankly either your talking about things that you probably don't understand - which by the way is "absolutely childish", or you forgot to sign in, or your acting as a sockpuppet - because no one's first edit is on a talk page.<small>]]</span></span></small> 22:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
::::::Oh and ahh ... one more thing. There's a huge difference between policy and guidelines - and the fact that you don't know the difference throws your argument out the window.<small>]]</span></span></small> 22:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::::K Really now '''last but most important thing''' - did you tell the guy who told '''you''' about the debate that he violated WP Policy - because he did the exact same thing i did, only I did it to more people.<small>]]</span></span></small> 23:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


Under the "Production" heading, the first paragraph ends with the sentence: "That step is followed by addition of starter culture and standing "
This is ridiculous. The discussion to move this article is closed as yet another no consensus for the move. In return, some of those who wanted it moved describe those who voted oppose as "disgruntled tyrants". Furthermore, a claim is made that those who opposed the move had no merits to their arguments, and that if they truly wanted to end the arguments about it they would support the move. We apparently fail to see that the American English spelling is the "right" way, and we are accused of Anti-Americanism. The person closing the debate is accused of closing it too early (apparently 6 days of debate isn't enough). Finally, the person who laboriously went through the past debates about this naming change and notified all voters of the new debate is accused of "manipulating the straw poll" somehow, even though he notified people on both sides of past arguments. If you feel that all these absences of respect for other Wikipedians is alright, then you need to take a good, hard look at yourself. - ] 07:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
:Agreed. Furthermore, ] isn't explaining what's more "sensible" about the other spelling. The point of the AmE/BrE ceasefire is that both spellings are perfectly sensible, and that's why we need to stop arguing about it. Nobody will be remotely confused, misled, or misinformed by either title, so let it die, already. -]<sup>(])</sup> 15:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
:: 1) What's more sensible about the "Yogurt" spelling has already been explained. 2) "Letting it die" is not the appropriate word choice. It was "killed" by an active effort on the part of Daniel_Folsom to gather votes from people he knows always unthinking vote against American spelling.
:: What I'm suggesting is that we have a serious discussion about this. We should not let orthographic imperialist tyrants "kill" open, free discussion. We should strive to make Misplaced Pages better. Most of the reasons given for those voting against the change were clearly absurd. Given that Daniel F. made a concerted get out the vote effort and the Oppose votes were NOT overwhelminginly in the majority, I think it's clear the wider WP community would support this move. Let's give them a chance to consider it, fairly this time! Then, if it's been considered in fair way, the result will be more "stable." If tyranny is what's largely responsible for the closing of a discussion, it will just keep coming up again.
--] ] 2007-05-25 01:26 01:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


Now, I'm just a tourist here, and I don't know enough about yogurt to complete the sentence. It's been that way for at least a year I think, looking at the history. I could compare more revisions but again, I'm only a tourist looking for info on how yogurt is made. ] (]) 23:48, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
==Goat-soybean yoghurt==


== Yogurt vs "curds" ==
] has been adding a section on "Goat-soybean yoghurt", which discusses a (published) research project by a Taiwanese graduate school student. This product does not seem to be commercialized or widely used. Ecoinus, could you please explain why you believe this product is worth mentioning in Misplaced Pages? Without some evidence that it is more than a research project, I don't think it belongs in the WP Yoghurt article. Thanks, --] 18:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice to have similarities and differences between yogurt and ] (as in curds and whey). Curds are sometimes made by adding rennet, but can also be made by bacterial fermentation of fresh milk. Differences would seem to include more careful control of the bacterial culture and the temperature, but in both pocesses the milk sugar (lactose) is converted to lactic acid, lowering the pH and coagulating the non-whey proteins. ] (]) 17:47, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 7 January 2024 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Yogurt|answered=yes}}
The article in History section states: 'Isaac Carasso industrialized the production of yogurt. In 1919, Carasso, who was from Ottoman Salonika', however I suggest to be changed to: "Isaac Carasso industrialized the production of yogurt. In 1919, Carasso, who was from Salonika'. Revised the description of Isaac Carasso's origin. Removed the specific mention of 'Ottoman Salonika' to focus on the geographical location (Salonika/Thessaloniki) without implying historical or cultural influences that are not essential to the context of his yogurt business. The goal is to present factual information pertinent to Carasso's business endeavors without unnecessary historical connotations. ] (]) 20:42, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

{{done}}, although with ] (]) 23:26, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

== Oxygala is a type of curd and has no direct connection with the origins of yoghurt ==

The theory of 'oxygala is the origin of yoghurt' needs to be proven otherwise it distorts the flow of the article. The history section should start with the first written or historically valid arguments. There are many other curd types invented or discovered different parts of the world independently, however these either do not follow the same production steps with yoghurt or there is no information about the process at all. Oxygala mention should be moved to later stages in the article, and should not be the very first part of the history section unless it's clearly validated: "The cuisine of ancient Greece included a dairy product known as oxygala (οξύγαλα) which was a form of yogurt. Galen (AD 129 – c. 200/c. 216) mentioned that oxygala was consumed with honey, similar to the way thickened Greek yogurt is eaten today." ] (]) 09:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

:Although I agree with you that the connection between ''oxygala'' and yogurt is not well-established, it is the position taken by multiple ] cited in the article, which is what we have to rely on. If you can find RS which question this connection, we should add those to the article.
:As for oxygala being a type of "curd", that word is itself rather ambiguous. It can mean cheese curd or even yogurt. --] (]) 20:34, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
:Oxygala is probably Teleme. Yogurt is not consumed with honey but teleme is consumed with honey. Teleme is made with the help of figs which is native to the Medditerian sea regions. ] (]) 13:39, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 07:53, 11 December 2024

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See also Talk:Yogurt/yogurtspellinghistory

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
Media mentionThis article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:
  • Nathan Yau (June 26, 2024). "Decade-Long Battle for "Yogurt" vs. "Yoghurt" on Misplaced Pages". FlowingData. Retrieved June 26, 2024. In 2002, a Misplaced Pages article for yogurt was created. Debates ensued.
  • "The Depths of Wikipedians". Asterisk Magazine. November 1, 2024. Retrieved December 11, 2024. Take the page for yogurt. The debate over whether to call it "yogurt" or "yoghurt" lasted seven years and totaled over 140,000 words. What happened there specifically, and what makes the process so inefficient in general?

"Swiss style" yogurt

This appears to be a North American concept. A quick google produces mostly US and Canadian hits. The article should really clarify that this is a regional, not global, term. Ef80 (talk) 13:34, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't see any sources cited for this term. The reference has been in there for 20 years; since the 3rd revision. I will ping that editor, @Collabi:, as they are still active. As I was looking for the origin edit I did notice at some point there was a citation to a website now apparently defunct, and also it used to say the term is used in the US. But maybe we should say North America because here's a Canadian citation for it. --В²C ☎ 03:58, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
The use of 'Swiss style' and other allusions to Swiss yoghurt packaging was common in the UK in the 1960s (when yoghurt was much less commonly eaten here) and later - see pictures at https://www.skidairy.co.uk/story . It was probably meant to sound all very healthy and pure. As more and more companies started selling yoghurt, this fashion disappeared. But the yoghurt itself had nothing to do with Switzerland. Sbishop (talk) 08:36, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
Are you sure? I just Googled for “yogurt in Switzerland” and found this statement on a Swiss website:

The Swiss eat a lot of dairy products and yoghurts are no exception. Everyone eats them, and if you peeked into a fridge of a family with teenagers, it would probably be stacked with lots of yoghurts. Swiss yoghurts are stirred instead of strained (set), which results in a creamier consistency. In fact, if you Google stirred yoghurt, it often comes up as Swiss yoghurt. There are only a few exceptions to this in Switzerland; the chocolate, coffee and toffee yoghurts are set ones, all other ones are stirred.

—В²C ☎ 16:42, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
I think Misplaced Pages has misattributed that very old diff. I didn't write the initial revisions of the article (nor that factoid about the swiss style); I just fixed some details about the science. Collabi (talk) 23:58, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

While I think more research is required to find better sourcing before we cite the reference in the article, I think we've established the "swiss" usage exists and is not limited to the US or even to North America. --В²C ☎ 18:29, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Hmm. I challenge you to find 'Swiss style' yogurt in a British supermarket, though Nestlé still use the old 'Ski' brand, which has vaguely Swiss connotations. I don't think the issue is important enough to make a fuss about though. --Ef80 (talk) 16:40, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Production - hung sentence

Under the "Production" heading, the first paragraph ends with the sentence: "That step is followed by addition of starter culture and standing "

Now, I'm just a tourist here, and I don't know enough about yogurt to complete the sentence. It's been that way for at least a year I think, looking at the history. I could compare more revisions but again, I'm only a tourist looking for info on how yogurt is made. Anafyral (talk) 23:48, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Yogurt vs "curds"

It would be nice to have similarities and differences between yogurt and curds (as in curds and whey). Curds are sometimes made by adding rennet, but can also be made by bacterial fermentation of fresh milk. Differences would seem to include more careful control of the bacterial culture and the temperature, but in both pocesses the milk sugar (lactose) is converted to lactic acid, lowering the pH and coagulating the non-whey proteins. Eaberry (talk) 17:47, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 January 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The article in History section states: 'Isaac Carasso industrialized the production of yogurt. In 1919, Carasso, who was from Ottoman Salonika', however I suggest to be changed to: "Isaac Carasso industrialized the production of yogurt. In 1919, Carasso, who was from Salonika'. Revised the description of Isaac Carasso's origin. Removed the specific mention of 'Ottoman Salonika' to focus on the geographical location (Salonika/Thessaloniki) without implying historical or cultural influences that are not essential to the context of his yogurt business. The goal is to present factual information pertinent to Carasso's business endeavors without unnecessary historical connotations. Neuron1989 (talk) 20:42, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done, although with further editing and a source. Zefr (talk) 23:26, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Oxygala is a type of curd and has no direct connection with the origins of yoghurt

The theory of 'oxygala is the origin of yoghurt' needs to be proven otherwise it distorts the flow of the article. The history section should start with the first written or historically valid arguments. There are many other curd types invented or discovered different parts of the world independently, however these either do not follow the same production steps with yoghurt or there is no information about the process at all. Oxygala mention should be moved to later stages in the article, and should not be the very first part of the history section unless it's clearly validated: "The cuisine of ancient Greece included a dairy product known as oxygala (οξύγαλα) which was a form of yogurt. Galen (AD 129 – c. 200/c. 216) mentioned that oxygala was consumed with honey, similar to the way thickened Greek yogurt is eaten today." 50kalibre (talk) 09:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Although I agree with you that the connection between oxygala and yogurt is not well-established, it is the position taken by multiple reliable sources cited in the article, which is what we have to rely on. If you can find RS which question this connection, we should add those to the article.
As for oxygala being a type of "curd", that word is itself rather ambiguous. It can mean cheese curd or even yogurt. --Macrakis (talk) 20:34, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
Oxygala is probably Teleme. Yogurt is not consumed with honey but teleme is consumed with honey. Teleme is made with the help of figs which is native to the Medditerian sea regions. 84.40.106.211 (talk) 13:39, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
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