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{{1911 talk}} |
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{{WikiProject Plants|class=|importance=}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=C|vital=yes|living=n|listas=Pliny The Elder|1= |
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{{WikiProject Biography|military-work-group=y|military-priority=Low|s&a-work-group=yes|s&a-priority=Top}} |
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==Latin== |
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A translation of the Latin phrases would be nice for those that do not read Latin.... |
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:''nec dubitamus multa esse quae et nos praeterierint; homines enim sumus et occupati officiis'' |
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:Nor do we doubt that there are many things that have escaped us also; for we are but human and beset with duties |
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:I think we should include the full quote, which has a certain charm for wikipedians (since this is the man who wrote the "first encyclopedia"): |
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:''nec dubitamus multa esse quae et nos praeterierint; homines enim sumus et occupati officiis, subsicivisque temporibus ista curamus, id est nocturnis'' (Praef. 18) |
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:Nor do we doubt that there are many things that have escaped us also; for we are but human and beset with duties, and we pursue this sort of interest in our spare moments, that is at night |
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:''plenum ingenni pudoris fateri per quos profeceris'' |
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:a pleasant thing and one that shows an honourable modesty, to own up to those who were the means of one's achievements |
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:These translations were taken from Loeb and they are a bit awkward. If someone would like to clean them up and/or add them to the article, please do. ] 01:39, 24 July 2005 (UTC) |
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==Scientist?== |
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Pliny the Elder was not a scientist, the concept of experimentation did not occur until the 17th century with ] and ]. A scientist maybe described as a person who goes about testing hypothesis by weighing evidence and/or results of experiments, thus increasing our knowledge about the world. Most importantly, science is the continuous exploration for the truth. It is said that the ancients delayed the ] because they were given too much respect, their knowledge was static (See ] on the meaning of science). Pliny the Elder was a naturalist, what he said in Naturalis Historia was brilliant general knowledge. |
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:Resarcher then? He appears to have been very curious about what was going on at the Vesuvio eruption ] 21:08, 2 July 2006 (UTC) |
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::As much as I admire Pliny (I'm the guy who put him online in Latin, and is named after him), no, not even. Pliny's principal involvement was that he was base commander of the local naval base, and was mostly interested in rescuing people, partly because it was his responsibility, partly because he knew a lot of them — he was a local landowner, these were his neighbors — and only secondarily was he curious about the workings of the eruption, etc. He might be characterized as a cultured man particularly curious about everything; but researcher not at all — absolutely no indication anywhere in his own NH nor in anything anyone said about him that he ever did more than compile the material researched or studied by others — and even less of scientist, which, with the exception of a very few top-flight Greeks (Aristotle, Theophrastus, Ptolemy, a couple of others) was not an ancient "thing". ] 21:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC) |
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:::Hi Bill. I would disagree with you a bit if you will allow it. Bottom line: your definition of scientist is perhaps too narrow. Everything you say about science being based on experimentation is true. But then there is a second tradition, which, for lack of a better term, I would call "descriptive science." The grand founder in modern times is Linnaeus. What actually exists in nature? You can't bring it into the laboratory because THEN it is not in nature any more. Here, "experimentation" is limited to various kinds of observation. The first known scientist of this sort is Aristotle. Pliny is definitely in that tradition. Then we have Linnaeus, the big three. Nor are these NOT considered scientists today. Darwin was a scientist. What experiments did he perform? Then you've got Louis leakey and all the anthropological field workers. I know where you are coming from. I just think it is too narrow a base! At some point I will be looking at this article in that regard. Right now though I only want to address the format as requested. PS I hope you do not interpret anything I say as disrespect. I think everyone admires you for your Internet contributions, your zeal and your great heart. I put in footnotes to your site all over the place.] 13:01, 14 January 2007 (UTC) |
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==His Master== |
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"He was often quoted by Pliny the Elder who called him "my Master". " http://www.roth37.it/COINS/Juba/abstract.html |
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:I can't find where he used that exact wording, but yes, there are many citations of Juba's work in the ''Natural History'', so it's believable. —]]] 18:12, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC) |
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::If it is not so believable, you can say: '''according to Prof. G.B.Vai he called Juba II "my Master", but according to me it's inbelievable'''. It is also good. |
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:::Never said any such thing, that any modern person could know. It is not found in the sole surviving work of his, the Natural History; nor is he reported to have said it by any other ancient writer. ] 21:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC) |
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==Absinthe link removed== |
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I just removed a link to " with photographs of the 1481 Parma edition" because that (beautiful and informative) page is not about Pliny but about absinthe and a late medieval manuscript. There are very, very many pages on the Web that discuss some aspect of what Pliny said; if we put all of them as links here, we'd turn into a link directory (which is one of the things Wickedpedia is not). I checked that Oxygenee site was linked under absinthe: it is. ] 17:19, 7 August 2005 (UTC) |
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== Pliny the Elder == |
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I am surprised that there is no mention of the modern "Pliny the Elder" beer manufactured by Russian River Brewing Co. |
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Due to the fact that the beer is named after him, and award winning, it should at least be briefly mentioned. |
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==Juba== |
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Pliny mentions Juba 65 times; frequently as king, but not once as his, or anyone else's master. In fact — this is what bothered me enough to go searching — nowhere does Pliny call ''anyone'' his master. ] 11:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC) |
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:After adding this note, I discovered that someone else had already been struck by the statement earlier. Sure enough, it appears on Mr. Rossi's page, referenced above: it remains wrong. ] 11:43, 6 April 2006 (UTC) |
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==Unhealthy?== |
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Quote from article: |
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:His style betrays the unhealthy influence of Seneca. |
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Is this NPOV? Pliny, at least, would disagree. Seneca too, I guess. ] 09:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC) |
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== Zirkle == |
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:Yes, Misplaced Pages will probably bomb this (true) statement out along with all the other "POV" stuff. It's a perfect example of how Misplaced Pages flattens everything out, and in so doing, loses the perspective and intelligence that makes some other encyclopedias great. It is, of course, not because Seneca would disagree with it that something is false, and a frequent judgment on Seneca is that his style and indeed psychological workings were in fact quite unhealthy (as a cursory look at his essay on mirrors in the Quaestiones Naturales will show for example). ] 13:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC) |
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''"despite his rescue attempt, Pliny never came within miles of Mount Vesuvius"'' |
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::Oh, sure. I hold no brief for Seneca. And I wasn't 100% serious. But "unhealthy" really wants thinking about. I find Pliny's style irritating, in just the same way that I found this quoted sentence irritating, because Pliny's sentences, like this one, tend to steer the reader to a facile moral judgment. Perspective, yes: intelligence, hmm! ] 14:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC) |
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Obviously not, since Stabiae is 10 miles from Vesuvius. So what's new here? |
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== Outside links == |
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And is Zirkle an established/credible source for Pliny matters? ] (]) 10:52, 6 January 2024 (UTC) |
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Most of the outside links link to a Latin page. For an English wikipedia, I think it should link to a translation. Correct me if I'm wrong. ] 21:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC) |
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:I removed that para. Here it is: |
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:In 1967, science historian ] similarly stated that "there is widespread and persisting misinformation" about Pliny's death. He suggested that despite his rescue attempt, Pliny never came within miles of Mount Vesuvius and no evidence has been found that shows he died from breathing in fumes, and like Bigelow, concluded that he died of a heart attack.<ref>Zirkle, Conway. (1967). ''The Death of Gaius Plinius Secundus (23–79 A.D.)''. '']'' 58: 553–559.</ref> |
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:That isn't my para but was added. It looks like a plug for Zirkle and seems redundant. The heart attack theory was already covered. Anyway the statement about Pliny getting nowhere near Vesuvius reveals the profound ignorance of the writer. Does he reslly think Pliny had to be up on the volcano to get hurt?] (]) 21:09, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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== Formatting task == |
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I finished setting this up in footnote format, added a few subheadings for access and readability, and made the quotations of one format. However I'm leaving the template on for the time because there is the question of the translations brought up under "outside links." That probably is a bit more work and would require double links, one for the Latin, one for the English. Next contributor, step up.] 15:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC) |
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== Vespasian bust == |
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== Patent inaccuracy needs correction == |
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It's very obviously not a contemporary work (as noted in the fine print on the media page). So why use it? And what does an image of Vespasian add anyway? ] (]) 10:58, 6 January 2024 (UTC) |
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In section 1.5, it says "The materials collected for this purpose filled rather less than 160 volumes in 23, when Larcius Licinus, the praetorian legate of Hispania Tarraconensis, vainly offered to purchase them for a sum equivalent to more than £3,200 (1911 estimated value) or £200,000 (2002 estimated value)." Since Pliny was born in the year 23, it seems unlikely he had finished nearly 160 volumes by the end of that year. Can someone find the actual date? Also, the amount of money offered in talents or sesterces might be more relevant than in 1911 or 2002 British Pounds. ] 17:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC) |
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:OK I swapped out the bust. I want to say, what do you care anyway? But instead I have to say, thanks for your critique. Oh, I almost forgot. Pictures help the reader to focus on the topic. They relieve the tedium of straight text. I'm very much an advocate of pictures, and I think WP rejected the standard that all pictures of people have to be photographic. The bust of Vespasian is really an ancient opinion of the sculptor about what sort of a person he must have been. If you want to go around taking all the art out of Misplaced Pages, well, good luck with that. If our only objective is to inform what other people think and not to please or entertain, then what are we spending all this money on design for? Why not just a list of simple block paragraphs or bulleted items? Ciao. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Xsign --> |
Obviously not, since Stabiae is 10 miles from Vesuvius. So what's new here?
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Referencing and citation: criterion not met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
