Talk:Psychic surgery: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 01:44, 20 August 2007 editConfuciusOrnis (talk \| contribs)5,598 edits →NPOV?: at this rate you'll have misrepresented the entire policy by the end of the day← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 06:24, 14 January 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk \| contribs)Bots7,668,584 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}} and vital articles: 7 WikiProject templates. Keep majority rating "B" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 4 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Paranormal}}, {{WikiProject Skepticism}}, {{WikiProject Medicine}}, {{WikiProject Alternative medicine}}.
(381 intermediate revisions by 30 users not shown)
Line 1:		Line 1:
			{{Talk header}}
	{{WikiProjectBannerShell\|1=
	{{WikiProject ~~Paranormal~~\|class=B\|~~nested~~=~~yes\|...}}~~		{{WikiProject banner shell\|collapsed=yes\|class=B\|1=
			{{WikiProject Paranormal}}
	{{Rational Skepticism\|class=B\|nested=yes\|...}}
			{{WikiProject Skepticism\|importance=mid}}
	{{Spirituality project\|nested=yes\|...}}
			{{WikiProject Spirituality}}
	{{WPMED\|nested=yes\|...}}
	{{WikiProject ~~True Origins~~\|~~nested~~=~~yes\|...~~}}		{{WikiProject Medicine\|importance=Low}}
			{{WikiProject Alternative medicine}}
			{{WikiProject Timeline Tracer}}
			{{WikiProject Psychology}}
	}}		}}

	==~~NPOVness~~==		== Kaufman ==
	"Psychic Surgery" is, and always was a sleight-of-hand trick. NPOV does not require equivocation of fact and fraud. -- ]
	:It is not equivocation. It is simply providing a neutral, disinterested approach that all parties involved can agree to. I have explained the ] position to you at least four times now. ''It is not negotiable.'' If you continue to make the same edits, I'm going to have to get admins involved which may possibly lead to you being banned. I don't want that and neither do you. -- ] <sup>]]</sup> 05:58, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

			I'd say that stating he declared he was cured without a citation should be removed. If he stated it there has to be a source somewhere. If he didn't say it then the statement should be removed. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	], although I agree with that "psychic surgery" is a con game, your edits, which simply assert this on no authority but your own, are not acceptable. Currently, and in its form before your first edit, the article states clearly that "Scientists, traditional medical doctors and stage magicians generally dismiss such practices as mere sleight-of-hand tricks, where the psychic doctor simply produces concealed blood and parts that he had suitably hidden in advance. Notably, debunker and retired magician James Randi has shown an ability to mimic psychic surgery." The ''current'' article contains a paragraph which uses carefully-weaselled language to associate the practice with superstition and fraud. There is no danger at all that anyone would read the article as an endorsement of the reality of psychic surgery.

			: ¡Oh yeah! Kaughman has perfect health now. If it would not have worked, he would have died from cancer, but his running and winning marathons all over the world proves that psychic surgery cured him. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:03, 24 October 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	If you are not happy with the article, you can include additional material on the "anti" side--for example I think that ''in the United States'' there ''have'' been authorities who have taken action against the practice as fraudulent. But they have to be neutral and properly sourced and reference. You must imagine that this article is being reviewed by someone intelligent who believes in psychic surgery, and you must imagine that person saying "I really don't like your putting that in, but I have to acknowledge, grudgingly, that it is factual."

			== External links modified ==
	Third-party quotations are your friend here. The formula is "X said Y about Z." You can't say "Psychic surgery is a fraud," but if you can find a newspaper article that says "Attorney-General so-and-so denounced psychic surgery as a fraud" you can put in a quotation from the article.

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	And if an editor shows up who believes in and is knowledgeable about psychic surgery, you and I have to accept any similar material that they put in the article.

			I have just modified {{plural:1\|one external link\|1 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	Do not simply conduct a revert war with ] or he may file a Request for Comment on your behavior or take other steps. Believe me, you cannot "win" a revert war simply by pitbull tenacity; it doesn't work. You must address the real issues and work with other editors on this. ] ] 10:00, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
			*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/Arigo,%20Jose.html

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx\|Sourcecheck}}).
	== Unsourced statement removed, pending discussion... ==

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false}}
	:The procedure is practiced predominantly in underdeveloped countries such as the ] and ], where practitioners can arguably take advantage of a ] populace, and where enforcement of anti-fraud statutes is low on government's priorities.

			Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 10:59, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
	Primarily in Phillippines and Brazil... OK. The rest seems awfully POV. Is Brazil really an "underdeveloped country?" Is there any backing for the statement that "enforcement of anti-fraud statues is low on government's priorities?" ] ] 14:58, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

			==Psychic surgery, a pseudoscience constituting medical fraud==
	I believe that for reasons of perceived political correctness, the person who wrote that was using "underdeveloped" to mean the classification of countries formerly known as Third and Fourth World countries. In fact, the term "lesser-developed nation" was the preferred term in the european economist community in 2002, and I have not become aware of any change; the term in its economic sense would definately apply in a general way to both Brazil and the Phillippines. Of course, I also think the original quote was written and presented in an awfully unprofessional and decidedly un-Wikipedian fashion, and deserves cleanup. That said, neither can be considered a world power at this point, in any arena in which countries are usually compared. I can't speak to the stance of their governments regarding anti-fraud, since I'm not up on their policies, but while I agree that any such statement should be backed up with sources, I don't think it's so suspect as to be taken out without counter-evidence. Trying to be helpful, hope I haven't stepped wrong.
			I've been to a psychic surgeon, and he helped me a lot with my back. Helped my wife even more.
			Then, reading the start of this article.. :)
			What to say. ] (]) 19:26, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
			:If you think it's biased you're welcome to modify the start of the article, provided you cite ]. ] (]) 14:06, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

	== ~~FTC~~ ~~action~~ ~~highly relevant~~ ==		== External links modified ==

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	I'm restoring this paragraph:

			I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	:The procedure was discredited by the U. S. Federal Trade Commission in 1975. In a unanimous opinion, the commission declared that "'psychic surgery' is nothing but a total hoax." Judge Daniel H. Hanscom, in granting the FTC an injunction against travel agencies promoting psychic surgery tours, said: "Psychic surgery is pure and unmitigated fakery. The 'surgical operations' of psychic surgeons ... with their bare hands are simply phony."
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070202112741/http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/PsychicSurgery.htm to http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/PsychicSurgery.htm

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	It's highly relevant, and probably the most important single action taken in the U. S. in regard to psychic surgery. The sources are two New York Times articles cited in the "references" secton. ] ] 09:54, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	== Globe and Mail links? ==

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 07:00, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
	Well, I'm baffled. If I the top link is to the Globe and Mail... and when I click on it I get the ''entire'' story.

			== Death ==
	But if I take that same link and paste it into my browser's URL field... I get a few lines from the article and instructions on how to purchase it.

			The actor Peter Sellers died after going to one in the Philippines.
	Anyone know how to get a link like Google's that does not require purchase? ] ] 16:43, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
			Should add to article.

	== Mister Orbito ==

			~~Bill~~ ] (]) 00:04, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
	Added 2 links, one to a credulous new age website and one to rickross.com.] 10:53, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

	== Seeking expert eyes on ] ==

	Hi all. I'd like to ask you, as people familiar with topics on or related to paranormal activity, to review the work at ], "the girl with X-ray eyes", which has been undergoing a tug-of-war between a primary source and one of his critics. I've tried to bring it to at least NPOV but apparently I muddled the technicalities and there are still sourcing needs.

	Would appreciate your comments -- the article is currently under protection but I think it can be taken out shortly.

	TIA, - ] ] 21:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

	== Pseudoscience link, Quackery category ==

	In the light of findings by the FDA that ""'psychic surgery' is nothing but a total hoax;" by a federal judge that "Psychic surgery is pure and unmitigated fakery;" and by the American Cancer Society that it "found no evidence that 'psychic surgery' results in objective benefit in the treatment of any medical condition," the Quackery category and the Pseudoscience link are appropriate. They are neutral because of the verifiable source citations showing that some authorities find it a hoax, fakery, and valueless.

	''For the same reason,'' the links to ] and its inclusion in the categories Supernatural healing and Parapsychology are '''also''' appropriate and neutral.

	Psychic surgery belongs in the supernatural healing category because it is factually true that a substantial number of people hold it to be supernatural healing.

	Psychic surgery ''also'' belongs in the quackery category because it is factually true that a substantial number of people hold it to be quackery.

	Categories and links are there to help people find related information, not to pass some kind of final judgement on the truth or falsity of something. ] ] 02:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

	:It isn't pseudoscience since it doesn't pretend to be scientific for the most part.] 02:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

	::Methinks that the "quackery" category tag is appropriate and NPOV. Independently of whether psychic surgery '''is''' quackery or not, it certainly '''is relevant to''' that topic. (Just as (say) "fraud" would be relevant to the topic of "law".) Besides, if classifying as "quackery" were POV, so would be classifying it as "supernatural healing".<br>As for "pseudoscience", many psychic surgeons make physics-sounding claims, with scientific terms like "vibrations", "energy", and the like (check Romero's quote). Many scientists see such declarations as attempts to make the craft seem "scientific". Again, independently of whether that is true or not, psychic surgery is certainly relevant to the topic "pseud-science".<br>All the best, --] 04:29, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

	:::I can't get <nowiki>]</nowiki> to work. –––''']''' <sub>(] Ψ ])</sub> 19:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

	== Inadequate use of terms, lack of references and sources ==

	The article lacks most references and citations and reads as an essay because of its narratory tone, this could be improved to a more editorial or encyclopedic tone for compliance.

	I have inserted requests for sources and citations where needed.

	The terms "doctor" and "surgeon" relate to physical realm of work (aka physicians) and largely contradict the term "psychic" that relates to the non physical realm. "Psychic doctors" is a terminology used and accepted only at common language and is not encyclopedic. A more correct term should be "Psychic Healers" which is the most accepted term in scientific circles sometimes with the added -pseudo- to healers ( but this addition may denote parciality or lack of neutrality). The article has many good points and with the requested improvements may have good acceptance <font color="00A813">]</font><sup><font color="00551BB3">]</font></sup> 10:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	:Not single thing you said makes any sense at all. Try again in english. <b><font face="courier" color="#737CA1">]</font></b> <small><b><font color="#C11B17">(])</font></b></small> 11:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


	::In brief:
	*There is general lack of citations and references
	*It is narratory
	*Psychic healers are not doctors and less surgeons, the correct term is "Psychic Healers"

	Furthermore please keep civility and don't remove the banners which put the article under scope and request references, unless the article provides the requested references the banners will be placed again. The correct way is to provide the requested references. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation <font color="00A813">]</font><sup><font color="00551BB3">]</font></sup> 11:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	:In fact it is largly referenced, the problem is that the statements are not attributed to the references they come from. I don't know what narratory is supposed to mean, but you're in no position to complain about poor grammar. The last point is a non-sequitur. The <b>correct</b> term is "fraud", since they don't actually do any surgery or healing, but the common term ( attested to by ]'s ) is psychic surgery. <b><font face="courier" color="#737CA1">]</font></b> <small><b><font color="#C11B17">(])</font></b></small> 11:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	::Yes that could be part of the problem with the citations.
	*"Narratory" is an ''ab populis'' term popularized in some countries when refering to "narrative style". Style is not grammar and there are clear guidelines and policies in Misplaced Pages regarding style.
	*As you may have realized I didn't challenge the term "Psychic surgery" but psychic "]", please se next thread.
	<font color="00A813">]</font><sup><font color="00551BB3">]</font></sup> 12:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	== Do not remove the flags ==

	Please leave the flags in place until complying with the requests. <font color="00A813">]</font><sup><font color="00551BB3">]</font></sup> 11:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	== Revision ==

	It reads much better with your recent revision.

	One concern continues to be "It is practiced chiefly in Brazil and the Philippines", it could be good if you can provide who says it and where. Another concern is " is performed by psychic surgeons", they are not ], what about trying some approach in this leading parragraph which explains that they call '''themselves''' "surgeons" , perhaps "performed by who are popularly known as Psychic Surgeons..." or something which solves that definition. It is a leading parragraph.

	Be careful in " Kaufman believed the cancer had been removed. However, Kaufman died of metastatic carcinoma on " because you are trying to say that he "anyway" died of that, but if you mention metastases, these could be because of "migration" of some cells of the previous existing carcinoma to other organs and therefore were not necessarily the same cancirnoma. Perhaps you should pinpoint (with a citation) where (in which organ) was the carcinoma located when he got the psychic intervention and where was when he died. Or remove metastatic if you don't have a reference to his diagnose and leave " died of terminal carcinoma". Just an idea for dodging a potential bullet, not a request.<font color="00A813">]</font><sup><font color="00551BB3">]</font></sup> 12:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	:Well with the Brazil, Phili thing, I'm pretty sure we don't have to say <i>who</i> said it, since it's not really a controversial opinion, but a plain statement of fact, and we have sources for that. While you are right, they're not "surgeons", the thing is, they aren't "healers" either, this isn't like herbalism or forms of alt.med like that, where the practitioner believes what they are doing is real. This is an out and out hoax, it's really not possible to perform it <b>and</b> believe it's real ( without being heroically deluded that is ). In any event, we have articles about ] and ] despite the fact that neither of those subject are even remotely scientific. In any case I'm sure we can some to some agreement about some more neutral term like "proponent" or "practitioner". As for the last point on kaufmann I don't know, I'll see if I can find something more concrete. <b><font face="courier" color="#737CA1">]</font></b> <small><b><font color="#C11B17">(])</font></b></small> 12:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	::Practitioner or proponent as you propose is quite good, if you need at the leading parragraph "surgeons" because of easily recognized term, you can think about "popularly known as.." <font color="00A813">]</font><sup><font color="00551BB3">]</font></sup> 12:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	::As you may know, there is also abundant practice of that in Colombia, Jamaica, Portugal, Spain, Marroc, Gabon, Mozambique, Angola, Thailand and a few more, may be you want to consider something like " practiced in many countries been well known Brazil and Phillipines" (with better grammar of course)
	<font color="00A813">]</font><sup><font color="00551BB3">]</font></sup> 13:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	:::I'll see if I can find some refs for the popularity of the practice, that covers those countries. There is already a short section on psychic surgery in other countries, so I reckon they should go in there. I've made the change to proponent. Also I found kaufman's death certificate, though I'm not sure whether that by itself is good enough, it certainly suggests that he died of a metastatic carcinoma. <b><font face="courier" color="#737CA1">]</font></b> <small><b><font color="#C11B17">(])</font></b></small> 13:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	: describes use in the Philippines. ] 14:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	::yeah, that ref is pretty good, it's already used a few places in the article. <b><font face="courier" color="#737CA1">]</font></b> <small><b><font color="#C11B17">(])</font></b></small> 14:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	:::It strikes me that we could leave the specific geography out of the introduction. <font color="red">]</font><font color="blue">]</font> <sup><font color="darkred">]</font></sup> 15:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	== Article contents ==

	Currently, the article goes:
	*Intro
	*Country #1
	*Country #1
	*Elsewhere
	*Fraud
	*Entertainment ('in popular culture')

	I think a better flow would be:
	*Intro
	*Description of practice
	*Fraud
	*In specific countries
	*In popular culture

	That is, I think we need a section describing what psychic surgery is, since that is sorely lacking. And I think the fraud info should come after that, followed by country-specific info. Other thoughts? <font color="red">]</font><font color="blue">]</font> <sup><font color="darkred">]</font></sup> 15:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	:That should be a good flow. It is missing a "History" section, perhaps putting together the historical references which at this moment are disperse here and there. <font color="00A813">]</font><sup><font color="00551BB3">]</font></sup> 17:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


	::We need to have the description of what it is -which in this case is the part of specific countries sections- before fraud. Just as we have it in all the other articles. First you describe, then you discuss. Or, first you state the claims, then you state the counter-claims. We need to do the same thing here. It also allows for expansion. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]){{#if:20:15:56, August 19, 2007 (UTC)\| 20:15:56, August 19, 2007 (UTC)}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

	== A few points ==

	*There is a possible confusion when you refer to candomble, in Brazil, most of the Psychic practicioners pertain to ] they are what they call "pai de santo".
	*The linked article of ] still says surgeon instead of practitioner
	*The death certificate establishes death by renal failure '''caused''' by metastases derivated froma a primary carcinoma, so to be correct, you could say "died of renal failure as consequence of the diagnosed carcinoma" or something like that
	*There are I think many citations to newspaper articles, please see ] you should add a few more solid references
	*Qigong and Shiatsu are unfairly related with this type of practice in the article, that should be changed as the manipulations relate by lineage to umbanda ritual, the touches or movements may look similar to Qigong or Shiatsu but were not inspired on those totally different practices.
	There is a section "other countries which need to be taken away until it has been populated

	<font color="00A813">]</font><sup><font color="00551BB3">]</font></sup> 18:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	:I've made the renal failure change. I'll have to do more research before I comfortably understand the condombe/umbanda distinctions; if the original creators of that section see this in the meantime, their help would be appreciated. <font color="red">]</font><font color="blue">]</font> <sup><font color="darkred">]</font></sup> 19:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	==Continual POV-pushing==

	This article has been the subject of POV-pushing for months. All NPOV editors need to keep an eye on it. At one time, the lead ran , and it seems to migrate back toward that state at regular intervals (previous versions were even ).

	Recently, in controversion of the recent ArbCom on the paranormal (]). This is a call for NPOV editors to put this article on their watchlists. –––''']''' <sub>(] Ψ ])</sub> 20:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	==Lead==

	Antelan, wow, that's a great job on the lead(: –––''']''' <sub>(] Ψ ])</sub> 21:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	== Possible Copyvio ==

	Well it appears that either original authors copied large blocks of text from , or ( much more likely, looking at the history, and the other obviously plagarised idiocy she's got on her sight ) she plagiarised her article from here. Either way, that article is no good as a ref for this article. <b><font face="courier" color="#737CA1">]</font></b> <small><b><font color="#C11B17">(])</font></b></small> 23:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	:Good catch, took it out. –––''']''' <sub>(] Ψ ])</sub> 23:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	== NPOV? ==

	Martinphi, if you are going to tag the article as NPOV it would be helpful to describe why you think it is so. <font color="red">]</font><font color="blue">]</font> <sup><font color="darkred">]</font></sup> 23:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

	:Yes. The lead ''defines'' Psychic surgery as a form of medical fraud. It is, of course, a form of medical fraud. However, there are plenty of sources we could get that describe it otherwise. We therefore must come up with a definition which does not label it from the start. Antelan had a good one, but it was immediately changed.

	:We should also mention in the lead, as well as the article, that the consensus among some very important bodies is that it is a form of medical fraud. But that is not its definition, any more than the definition of Islamic fundamentalism is a form of religious fraud. –––''']''' <sub>(] Ψ ])</sub> 00:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

	::False analogy, and a fundamental misunderstanding of NPOV. Those that believe that this is anything but fraud are on the fringe of the fringe. This is most like ] which defines it as fraud in the first paragraph, because the overwhelming consensus, even among those inclined to believe, is that this is fraud. We have legislators saying it's fraud, we have medicoes saying it's fraud, we have magicians saying it's fraud, and we have proponents admitting in court that it's fraud. It's illegal in most western countries as fraud. NPOV does not require us to define it as anything but fraud. <b><font face="courier" color="#737CA1">]</font></b> <small><b><font color="#C11B17">(])</font></b></small> 00:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

	:::Yes, the very first sentence of the ] article calls it '''highly illegal'''. We are being considerably more conservative here; I see no problem with Ornis's version of this article. <font color="red">]</font><font color="blue">]</font> <sup><font color="darkred">]</font></sup> 00:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

	::::And highly illegal it is. That's a statement of fact, not a definition. Your instinct to stay close to the source was the right one. –––''']''' <sub>(] Ψ ])</sub> 00:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

	:::::And Ornis's instinct to call a spade a spade was even better. <font color="red">]</font><font color="blue">]</font> <sup><font color="darkred">]</font></sup> 00:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

	Too bad about the NPOV thing, tho. –––''']''' <sub>(] Ψ ])</sub> 00:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

	:Instead of sarcasm, you would do well to explain why you think it is NPOV. Ornis and I have already considered your previously offered reasons and we haven't found them sufficient, per analogy with pyramid scheme. Do you have other reasons to consider this NPOV? Perhaps quoting from the NPOV policy and pointing out exactly where we're erring here? <font color="red">]</font><font color="blue">]</font> <sup><font color="darkred">]</font></sup> 00:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

	:(EC) Yeah, look, come back when you have an actual argument. I've pointed out to you multiple times that this is fully compliant with npov, but you just don't get it. Your obstinate refusal to actually present a counter argument does you no credit. <b><font face="courier" color="#737CA1">]</font></b> <small><b><font color="#C11B17">(])</font></b></small> 00:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

	::You have to go directly to policy. I don't know about that article, I know about this one. The fact is, that according to some, the definition is as you suggest. According to others, it is different. So, we use a definition which violates neither view. That's all. Having defined in a neutral manner -as in the curren lead- you then go on to explicate views about it. That's NPOV. –––''']''' <sub>(] Ψ ])</sub> 01:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

	:::Wrong. Your version violate undue weight. <b><font face="courier" color="#737CA1">]</font></b> <small><b><font color="#C11B17">(])</font></b></small> 01:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

	It is in accord with the source. Your version violates:

	:::"Please be clear on one thing: the Misplaced Pages neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. It does state that we must not take a stand on them as encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such;"

	Your version takes a stand.

	It also violates:

	:::"NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth notion, a view of a distinct minority."

	Because it does not represent the minority view in the definition at all. As I said before, you need to read and understand NPOV. –––''']''' <sub>(] Ψ ])</sub> 01:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

	:The mistake you make is assuming that belief in this rubbish is a significant viewpoint. IN fact it's a tiny minority viewpoint and as such we: ''"may not include tiny-minority views at all"''. <b><font face="courier" color="#737CA1">]</font></b> <small><b><font color="#C11B17">(])</font></b></small> 01:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


	::Nope. It's wrong, but it isn't a tiny minority viewpoint among the avaliable sources, or among those who are interested in it. If it's such a minority viewpoint, the subject is not notable, and the article should be deleted. –––''']''' <sub>(] Ψ ])</sub> 01:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

	:::And now you're ignoring the fact the relevant majority we are supposed to represent is that of the scientific community, not the dupes that travel to the philippines for treatment. <b><font face="courier" color="#737CA1">]</font></b> <small><b><font color="#C11B17">(])</font></b></small> 01:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 06:24, 14 January 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Psychic surgery article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3

This article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Paranormal

	This article falls under the scope of WikiProject Paranormal, which aims to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the paranormal and related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the attached article, help with current tasks, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and discussions.ParanormalWikipedia:WikiProject ParanormalTemplate:WikiProject Paranormalparanormal
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Skepticism Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Spirituality

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spirituality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of spirituality-related subjects on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SpiritualityWikipedia:WikiProject SpiritualityTemplate:WikiProject SpiritualitySpirituality
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Medicine Low‑importance

	Medicine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Alternative medicine

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative medicine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Alternative medicine related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Alternative medicineWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative medicineTemplate:WikiProject Alternative medicineAlternative medicine

Timeline Tracer (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Timeline Tracer, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Timeline TracerWikipedia:WikiProject Timeline TracerTemplate:WikiProject Timeline TracerTimeline Tracer

Psychology

	Psychology portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Psychology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Psychology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PsychologyWikipedia:WikiProject PsychologyTemplate:WikiProject Psychologypsychology
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Kaufman

I'd say that stating he declared he was cured without a citation should be removed. If he stated it there has to be a source somewhere. If he didn't say it then the statement should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.155.48.112 (talk) 05:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

¡Oh yeah! Kaughman has perfect health now. If it would not have worked, he would have died from cancer, but his running and winning marathons all over the world proves that psychic surgery cured him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.233.65 (talk) 01:03, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Psychic surgery. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/Arigo,%20Jose.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—_{Talk to my owner:Online} 10:59, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Psychic surgery, a pseudoscience constituting medical fraud

I've been to a psychic surgeon, and he helped me a lot with my back. Helped my wife even more. Then, reading the start of this article.. :) What to say. Gsoler (talk) 19:26, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

If you think it's biased you're welcome to modify the start of the article, provided you cite reliable sources. Uanfala (talk) 14:06, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070202112741/http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/PsychicSurgery.htm to http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/PPI/UnconventionalTherapies/PsychicSurgery.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:00, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Death

The actor Peter Sellers died after going to one in the Philippines. Should add to article.

~~Bill~~ 2607:FEA8:4A2:4100:E4D8:1994:2E91:D60 (talk) 00:04, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Categories: