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Bibliography

something wrong in the bibliography text: several "cite journal" or "cite book" phrases, some with "generic" word. (Presumably meant to be template invocations!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.1.59.15 (talk) 16:45, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

History section too specific on methodology/theory

Hello, the history section is primarily concerned with the methods/ideals of translation in various epochs. As such, it clearly, but unwittingly, has a certain Translation Studies bias. The history of translation should also consider its growth as an industry, e.g. statistics on published translations, etc. Then any non-original theory on how these intersected (e.g. readability in 18th C compared to the rise of the novel a la Watt). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.174.46 (talk) 16:17, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Translators, Inc.???

I saw the following when I reached the "Translation" article: QUOTE"Translators" redirects here. For the company, see Translators, Inc..UNQUOTE (sic: with two periods/full stops)

Who are these people?

Have they advertising privileges here that allow them to hijack the plural of a common noun to another Wiki article that reads like advertising and is flagged as such???

I suggest that link be promptly removed.

That failing, there are websites for "translators", e.g. ProZ and Translators Cafe (www.proz.com and www.translatorscafe.com) -- but the hijacking of a common noun in order to vector readers to a publicity article seems unethical. Moreover it appears right at the top of the article: I'm floored! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthurborges (talk • contribs) 09:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Archived

As the discussion was getting difficult to follow, this page has been archived at . Please feel free to copy any relevant ongoing conversations from the archive. maxsch (talk) 01:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Split?

This article is huge. Perhaps it's time to spit some of the larger sections away to create their own articles?--Lendorien (talk) 15:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

If space is an issue, maybe some sections of this article could be moved to translation studies - at the moment, the Translation Studies article is pretty useless. Jammycaketin (talk) 13:46, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

"Translation," and its sections as presently constituted, do not strike me as excessively long. Parceling out sections would detract from the article's comprehensiveness. Nihil novi (talk) 03:52, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Blogs?

On WP:EL blogs are listed under the type of external links that are to be generally avoided. I would bet that there are hundreds of blogs that are related to translation. I don't know why we should include any of them--or, diplomatically, what would the standard for inclusion be? Links to blogs amount to a sort of endorsement, if users want to search for blogs that talk about translation they should do that with a search engine. I propose that we not have a section on this page called "Blogs", but I thought maybe I'd seek consensus. xschm (talk) 03:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Heartily concur. Nihil novi (talk) 06:48, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Merge suggestion

I propose that Translation process be moved here. Surely the general article on translation is where the translation process should be discussed; the process isn't really unique enough to warrant its own article. —Angr 13:53, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

While I agree that Translation process doesn't really merit it's own article, I'm not sure that it contains any content that would help this article. It doesn't have any references and in fact I (personally) think that the central assertion about the translation process being decoding and re-encoding is misleading. I would agree with having the process article redirect to translation but I don't think this article should change because of that. xschm (talk) 22:20, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I concur. Nihil novi (talk) 23:38, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Those are quite the bold statements you accomplish considering that the cognitive mechanisms underlying the translation process is very much an active research object in cognitive psychology and psycholinguistics.90.184.75.69 (talk) 19:47, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Permission

Perhaps something can be mentioned about the relationship of the original author(s) to the translated work through history? Currently, for example, it is illegal to translate something without the original author's permission due to copyright laws, but it wasn't always thus. Even until the collapse of the Soviet Union, because the world wasn't unipolar, you frequently saw translations of works from "the other side" that were done without permission and took many liberties with the original work, sometimes for the better. In the USSR, there were such translations of Winnie the Pooh, The Wizard of the Emerald City and Buratino. Esn (talk) 10:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

A separate article on Translation law? Are you up for it? Nihil novi (talk) 11:17, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

That would be a great idea. But I'm no expert on translation law. The Berne Copyright Convention covers translation law currently for almost all countries, yes. Even though in many countries, it's only on paper and making it real is expensive and frustrating (see the recent spat with the Brazilian Lord of the Rings translator). But it would also be important to mention the situation historically. For example, in the 19th century, the United States' relationship with international copyright law was far more reluctant than today. Esn (talk) 11:42, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

The articles Derivative work, Legal issues with fan fiction and Fansubbing#Legal_and_ethical_issues may be of some use. Esn (talk) 11:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify. While it may violate copyright law to publish a translation without permission of the original text's publisher (not the author's permission, which is actually irrelevant), it isn't illegal to translate. xschm (talk) 21:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, you have to have the permission of the copyright holder. That may be the author or the publisher, depending on the circumstances. (I own the copyright on both my books, not the publisher, and no, they aren't self-published!) —Angr 21:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

"it isn't illegal to translate" - well, it hasn't been made a thought-crime, if that's what you mean. "Don't ask, don't tell". It's legal as long as you don't do it in public. Anything that is posted online is considered to be "published", for example, and since the internet takes up an ever-increasing percentage of our interaction with others, copyright laws are now being applied to spheres that used to be beyond their reach. Esn (talk) 00:42, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

A-Class Quality Requirements

A-Class quality requirements of Misplaced Pages need to be observed. --78.48.48.65 (talk) 03:29, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

"Translation" template

A user has added to the "Translation" article a template titled "Translation" that is ill-conceived and unnecessary. Its first part, "Translation concepts," lists two items, "Literal translation" and "Direct translation," that refer to the same article, "Literal translation."

The template's second part, "Translation process," lists two items, "Transcription (linguistics)" and "Transliteration," neither of which is a central concept in the theory and practice of translation.

Moreover, each concept listed in the template appears in the article's "See also" section and need not appear in a template. Nihil novi (talk) 06:47, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

If you don't like the template, take it to WP:TFD. But as long as a template {{Translation sidebar}} exists, it's ridiculous not to use it in the article Translation. +Angr 10:18, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I've tried to increase the usefulness of the navbox by changing what it does and doesn't link to. +Angr 12:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Translator's notes

Hi there. I notice in several scientific or professional books (about management or social science) translated from French to English the absence of translator notes. Whereas similar books translated from English to French have lots of notes added to allow the French-reader to understand why the English-writing author said that. Is there a "culture" of avoiding translator notes in English please? -- Silwilhith (talk) 22:26, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

No from english to pashto Noor wali (talk) 10:58, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

written literature -> translation_translation-2010-02-26T13:05:00.000Z">

>>The art of translation is as old as written literature.

Why? Art of translation is (imho) much older than a writing system. Writing literature isn't condition of translation. For example incantations in Evenki language was translated into Sakha language without knowledge of writing.--88.83.179.234 (talk) 13:05, 26 February 2010 (UTC)_translation"> _translation">

Thanks. I have added a footnote about this. Could you please provide a reference? Nihil novi (talk) 19:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

"Such research is a necessary prelude to the pre-editing necessary in order to provide input for machine-translation software such that the output will not be meaningless." --This sentence strikes me as nearly example of the very thing it speaks of, as something to avoid.200.160.81.133 (talk) 23:08, 23 May 2010 (UTC)_translation"> _translation">

Please, mind the too-many opinions.

Dear Nihil Novi:

As a professional book editor and translator (English, Spanish, German, vice versa), I understand your translator’s professional enthusiasm, yet you insert your opinions so often that the article becomes subjective, i.e. Who says that language spill-over is particular to limited-proficiency translators? If they are not your opinions, then please cite the name of the speaker. This is especially noticeable in the machine translation and Internet sections, which are over-padded . . . with opinion and weasel words — because there is little substance to such matters; the machine always is inferior to the translator and translatress. Might not “Machine translation”, “CAT”, and “Internet” become a single, substantive section? Then that triune section might not need padding.

Moreover, a history section requires dates of occurrence and publication, otherwise, the layman reader shan’t grasp the entry’s gist — because it reads as an in-crowd article for and about translators and translation. Furthermore, the image captions are editorially necessary context establishing the image-text relations that illustrate the article’s points; otherwise, they are random pictures to which the reader might remain indifferent. After all, in the reading-deficient 21st century, such are the requirements of full communication.

In the lead paragraph, communication is the purpose of the art and craft of translation, the purpose of a translation is the readers’ comprehension of the source-language text, thus why I corrected that construction; otherwise, I concur with you that the entry is not over-long, but padded; unfortunately American English tends to a prolix passive voice. I shall contribute throughout; thanks for your forebearance.

Best regards, Mhazard9 (talk) 15:21, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Translation, please?

Do you seriously doubt that experienced translators are generally less prone than inexperienced ones to spill-over between languages?

What "padding" are you referring to?

Why do you think that in a portrait the subject's name is insufficient as caption?

How do you justify the view that "the machine always is inferior to the translator and translatress "? I've seen man-made translations that are worse than anything that a machine could perpetrate.

I regret that the changes that you have introduced do not enhance the article's precision or clarity but tend to the opposite effect. Something seems to be lost in your translation.

Nihil novi (talk) 09:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Dear Nihil Novi:

Thank you, for replying. The purpose of editorial work is for the article to always answer the readers’ Who? What? Where? When? and Why? queries about Translation.

Every translator risks language spillover; limiting the (unattributed) statement to inexperienced, limited-proficiency, etc., translators is an opinion. The padding is self-evident in that the two or three lines of prolix passive-voice text are spaced so far apart in order to fill space; it calls attention to the writer, not the subject. Remember, the target reader is the general reader, not translators (such as we) for whom this is “translation community” in-crowd knowledge, thus the logical expansion, because — as a European-educated man, you (might) know that in this hemisphere, schooling and education are schematic.

A full answer — In the US, where I reside, technicians (attorneys, physicians, engineers), but not laymen, tiresomely tell me that they, too, studied (English, German, Spanish), but that they haven't the time to translate a three-page document, because . . . yes . . . of course . . . quite . . . really! To most Americans, Cicero is a suburb of Chicago, Illinois (Al Capone lived there!) — not a Roman Republic politician who cautioned the translator against linguistic fidelity, lest he confront the political consequences of such intellectual honesty. Where, in Cicero’s œuvre, might I find a substantiating quotation?

The history of translation theory: “Show, don’t tell” is the writer’s purpose (cf. Heart of Darkness, J. Conrad), thus, full concordance betwixt text and image guides the (general) reader to comprehend why an historical personage is pertinent to the text, especially when the personages come from several times, cultures, and countries, because full information about Translation is the article's purpose. The (article) writer guides the reader, the article’s full information (name, title, date) instructs the reader, hence why a book title must appear upon reference, e.g. Mark Twain’s back-translation exercise; hence, my integration of your most useful, informative, and illustrative explanation of Polish having several words for this matter; reportage, not anecdote.

Business machine vs. human translator — As you accurately note in the article, such mechanical translations require human pre-editing and post-editing, thus the machine's intellectual inferiority. After all, in real life, editorial work is editorial work; the editor (substantively and mechanically) edits (pre-edits) the document then proofreads (post-edits) it after integrating the corrections, so . . . uhm . . . trendy business neologisms notwithstanding, the human translator is not dispensable — which is the “money-saving” business goal of such machines; a point I shall expand in the article, if you permit.

Your regretful umbrage notwithstanding, please, be specific and give examples of my changes that have obscured the matter, made it imprecise, and thus less than . . . so that I might correct them . . . alas, I am not W.A. Mozart, so “too many notes” is unclear. Never-the-none-the-less, thank you for this fruitful correspondence, I look forward to working and corresponding with you; ’til then, you have my

Best regards,

Mhazard9 (talk) 15:31, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

An exhaustive exposition of the damage that you have done to the "Translation" article would require many times the space occupied by the article itself. A modest sampling, however, has been provided by Macrakis in his edits of 26 July, 22:37 through 23:00, in which he has simplified your turgid prose and, in places, deleted needless text ("padding"?). Perhaps, if editors continue the process, we may eventually return to something like the original text prior to your interventions. Nihil novi (talk) 06:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't really much care who wrote what, but I will note that most of the text I condensed predates Mhazard9's recent edits. The article as a whole sounds needs a lot of reorganization and rewriting. --Macrakis (talk) 13:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I concur. This article seems quite sketchy in many places; although seemingly very ambitious to laymen, it stands out as half-baked to those who practise and research translation and its workings. The article would benefit from thorough editing - and not least from a less turgid attitude from the self-appointed custodian Nihil novi.

Best,

Sir Tanx (talk) 20:26, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Traduttore, traditore

"Every translator is a traitor." Italian maxim, adopted by the French as "traduire, c'est trahir". (Good translations ? Ha!) --Jerome Potts (talk) 10:09, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Sworn translation

"Sworn translation" redirects to this article, but then there's no mention of the concept within the article. I hope someone with an understanding of "sworn translation" will add a section for this within the article. Phlar (talk) 19:23, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Verifiability‎‎ - Machine Translation - Request for Comments

Comments are requested from all interested editors at a discussion to amend WP:V. Please participate. Do you support the proposal to amend the guidance in WP:NONENG regarding the use of machine translations, as given below? Please note that the scope of WP:NONENG is limited to the translation of non-English sources for use in English Misplaced Pages.

The proposal is to replace this sentence in WP:NONENG :

• Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians, but translations by Wikipedians are preferred over machine translations.

with the following :

• Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians, and should always be attributed. A machine translation may be used in the text of the article only if the Wikipedian speaks the source language and confirms the accuracy of the translation.

Footnote: Attributions and confirmations may be provided on the talk page or in the edit summary.

Please add your comments at WP:V:talk and not here. Thanks. Rubywine . talk 02:10, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

hemat energy 80% ringan dan langsung nyala dapat beropeasi pada tegangan turun naik antara 17 - 250 Volt tidak cocok untuk rumah lampu downlight tidak dapat di dimmer atau tombol elektronik kinerja terbaik untuk tegangan 220 - 240 Volt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.124.115.207 (talk) 04:45, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

General definition

Isn't the general definition of "translation" already a bit too specific? I suggest getting rid of, or qualifying, the terms "meaning" and "equivalent" since arguably translation isn't just about translating "meaning" (but also content, effect etc.) and the concept of equivalence is now hackneyed in translation studies even though one can't deny translation comprising a degree of equivalence. Most introductions to translation studies (such as Jeremy Munday's) give a broader definition. Just a thought.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.233.212.87 (talk) 05:34, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Etymology and the Rosetta Stone

Does the Rosetta Stone realy belong with in the section about the Etymology of Translation? i can't realy see how it is relevant to the name. Fatalicus (talk) 11:31, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

The text about the Rosetta Stone does not really have anything to do with the etymology of the word translation, so it does not belong where it is. I suppose a note about it being used as a symbol for translation, if justified, might be appropriate in the caption for the image of the Rosetta Stone (to justify its presence), but I would suggest removing the whole sentence.--Boson (talk) 08:13, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Done. Nihil novi (talk) 09:02, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Rosetta stone described as secular icon

I hope I have added this to the correct section, I apologize if I haven't. Rosetta stone a secular icon? By whose standards?? An editor has stated in the article about translation that the Rosetta stone is a secular icon. Since the Rosetta stone is an actual stone (not a myth) and since it represents an unbiased artifact, the editor that used the phrase "secular icon" probably is a support of the religious myths that the Rosetta stone would help to remove from humanity. (When I use the term myth I understand that religious supporters do not identify their myths as fantasies, so my opinion, like that of many secular people, researchers, etc, is based on the fact that the religious community provides no hard evidence to support their claims, thus their claims are mythical and not factual, if we're being logical in these discussions, debates, diatribes.) Therefore, a much more balanced sentence to replace the faulty one would be: "The Rosetta stone is a viewed as a valid linguistic and historic tool by secular intellectuals while simultaneously being viewed as a secular icon by theologians.? We should not let Misplaced Pages continue to be a place where myths and erroneous philosophies are accepted as facts without the balance of the opposing views.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.19.234 (talk) 21:46, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

I would understand the term secular icon in this context merely to mean a physical object that is recognized as symbolic of something, in this case translation; so I don't see what point you are making. --Boson (talk) 08:13, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Overly technical lead

The start is overly technical and could benefit from more explanation or examples. For example, it presumes the reader knows what "spillover" is; if they don't and click on the term they are taken to a seemingly unrelated article. -Reagle (talk) 19:31, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Reagle, thanks for your comment. I've streamlined the lead. I'm not sure it can be made more intuitive without losing precision; the links should explain the terms. The "spillover" article actually is germane to the topic of translation.

Let us know of any other questions or comments.

Nihil novi (talk) 20:58, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Nihil novi, thanks for the response! I appreciate your concern about concision. However, I have more concerns with coherence, clarity, and concision of the prose due to the nominalizations and jargon than with parenthetical explanations. For example, I find the following lead preferable.

Translation communicates the meaning of a source-language text into an equivalent in a target-language text. Typically, this term is reserved for written texts; interpreting describes a similar process for non-written communication, including oral and sign-language communication.

Although I'm not sure if interpreting even needs to be in the lead, and if so, the proper relationship between the two concepts. It interpreting a type of translation? I recommend thinking about the different ways of defining a term.

In terms of concision and clarity, check out Explorations of Style, especially the pages on subject and verbs.

In any case, I think the following terms do need some explanation in the lead.

• spill-over sounds like it might be a technical term, it won't be familiar to many readers. Linking it only makes it more so. If contact language is important, use it more directly. When I go contact language, spill-over is never even menntioned.
• calque is definitely a technical term and could use a parenthetical explanation.

-Reagle (talk) 00:30, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

I've revised the lead, taking your critique into account. I think this version is better. I would eschew defining "calque" and "loanword" in the lead; at that stage, I want merely to signal the importance of conscious or unconscious introduction of source-language matter into the target language.

Nihil novi (talk) 03:04, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

"gender imbalance... in literary translation"

The current final paragraph of this article's "Literary translation" section reads:

In the 2010s a substantial gender imbalance was noted in literary translation (list of women translators). In 2014 Meytal Radzinski launched the Women in Translation campaign to address this.

1. The Oxford Companion to the English Language, Namit Bhatia, ed., 1992, pp. 1,051–54.
2. Anderson, Alison (May 14, 2013). "Where Are the Women in Translation?". Words Without Borders. Retrieved July 28, 2018. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)
3. https://literarytranslators.wordpress.com/2016/07/25/women-in-translation-an-interview-witth-meytal-radzinski/
4. https://www.thebookseller.com/tags-bookseller/meytal-radzinski
5. http://biblibio.blogspot.com/2018/07/exclusion-is-choice-bias-in-best-of.html

It is unclear whether this passage refers to a dearth of women translators or of women authors in translation, or to both.

Could someone please clarify this?

Thanks.

Nihil novi (talk) 23:41, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Phrase promoting gender imbalance

I came across the following text in the article and I feel that it should modified: "translations, like women, can be either faithful or beautiful, but not both". As a gay man I am sensitive to gender inequality and I think the phrase does not add anything meaningful or important to article, but instead perpetuates a phrase that is meant to be funny but it isn't (for women) going against the Misplaced Pages guidelines.

I have removed the "like women" due to the aforementioned reasons but let me know if you disagree. --Jlascar 16:11, 12 June 2019 (UTC)jlascar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlascar (talk • contribs)

Gilles Ménage's trite bon mot (quoted in the "Fidelity and transparency" section) has been around for some three and a half centuries, and deleting it from this article will not remove it from the noosphere, while disappointing some who will expect to find it here, if only as a relic of past coarseness.

Thanks for your interest.

Nihil novi (talk) 16:40, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, see Donne's poem "Go, and catch a falling Star". Liscaraig (talk) 23:51, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Text and analysis available here: https://www.litcharts.com/poetry/john-donne/song-go-and-catch-a-falling-star#:~:text=%E2%80%9CSong%3A%20Go%20and%20catch%20a%20falling%20star%E2%80%9D%20Themes&text=The%20poem%20explores%20a%20traditional,be%20the%20stuff%20of%20legends!

Nihil novi (talk) 21:36, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

these commentators try so hard to justify their existence, always so many glimpses of the obvious, such aa counting the stanzas, and getting the substance wrong. I think it was Frost who said poetry is lost in comment. Liscaraig (talk) 22:05, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

User:Liscaraig, thanks for bringing attention to John Donne's poem "Go, and catch a falling star". I had not been aware of it and linked it to share with other Misplaced Pages users. I agree with you; I've often found reading analyses of literature to resemble medical autopsies – not the most pleasant experiences. Are you a professional student of literature?

Nihil novi (talk) 22:44, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

no, I am a classics graduate aged 94, ie of the days when knowledge of the two languages was important. I can also read French, Italian, German and Russian quite well, was an army interpreter in the last. Have studied much literature as an "amateur". Is novi a verb or an adjective, I wonder?! Liscaraig (talk) 01:28, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Happy new year!

The Latin expression "nihil novi" ("nothing new") appears in the Vulgate Bible phrase, "nihil novi sub sole" ("there is nothing new under the sun"), in Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Novi looks to my half-tutored eye like the genitive case of the neuter adjective novum. What do you make of it?

Nihil novi (talk) 01:52, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Kire Yeyani

Kire Yeyani is a zimbabwean born in 1994 as his real name is clemence yeyani. kire was was born in mutoko maternity hospital which is located in mashonaland east province. he attended hid primary school at kowo primary school from grade 1-7 and half of his secondary was at kowo secendary from form 1-2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kire Yeyani (talk • contribs) 08:35, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has no entry for "Kire Yeyani".

Nihil novi (talk) 02:24, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Sight translation

I'm surprised that this isn't mentioned anywhere on the page.

This is basically reading a text in Language A and speaking the gist of the content in Language B. Professionally, I've seen this used most in legal contexts, where a legal team has received a large batch of hard-copy documentation in a subpoena request and is triaging to find the relevant content to assign for full translation.

Sight translation is also essentially what happens when a Japanese reader reads a text written in kanbun, a particular form of Classical Chinese that the reader reconstitutes on the fly into a kind of Japanese.

I do translation, but I don't have books about translation, so I lack the kind of references needed to cite such a section. Could someone else with relevant references please add a section on sight translation?

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ 23:52, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Despite its name, sight translation is a form of interpretation. (CC) Tbhotch 22:02, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

FWIW, in my graduate level studies of translation and interpretation, "translation" involved reading text as input, and "interpretation" involved listening to speech as input. The Middlebury Institute of International Studies page "Translation and Interpretation FAQs" mentions "sight translation" as one of the skills addressed in a translation degree here (you'll have to expand the heading).

In addition, the mention of "sight translation" in the Language_interpretation article links through to Translation, and describes "sight translation" as a kind of mixture of the two disciplines. I imagine readers of the Language_interpretation page who click the sight translation link there and land on the Translation page might be a bit confused to see no content at all about "sight translation". Ostensibly then, at a bare minimum, the Translation page itself should give a brief description of "sight translation", no? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ 23:53, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

@Eiríkr Útlendi:, thanks for your comments. One thing to consider if you wish to add something about sight translation to the article, would be to include something about what happens in regions where there is language diglossia, such as in German-speaking Switzerland. The local language spoken by everyone is Swiss German, but it is not a written language, and all printed material (except for specialty items) is printed in High German. This creates an interesting situation for children, who, up until they go to school and learn to read speak a language that is not in books. I was curious about how adults read to children from children's books, and the answer is, basically, sight translation. The adults read the story silently as printed in High German, and then interpret it simultaneously into Swiss German for their children. Eventually, the kids go to school and learn to read High German (and to speak it, to foreigners like me) but the language they speak to each other is Swiss German.

There are many other countries and languages that have diglossia situations, such as Egyptian Arabic/Modern Standard Arabic, but I don't know what the situation is with children's literature in those countries. It might make a very interesting expansion to the article to add something about this. Mathglot (talk) 09:44, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Too much history

Different bits of histoy under different sections History of translation (Histories?) Or Traditions of translation should be in a separate article History bits should be slimmed down & summarised here Also I don't understand why some global traditions are literally labelled "other" (!) 88.104.135.242 (talk) 08:54, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

New section on "military translation"

@Des Vallee:

The new section that you started today (14 April 2022), "Military translation", would correctly be titled "military interpreting", as it deals largely with oral interpreting for the military (please see the opening of the "Interpreting" section for the distinction between translating and interpreting).

Also, this new section is much too detailed for inclusion in a general article on translation and would be more appropriate for another article, such as the existing one on "Language interpretation".

Please consider moving the "Military translation" section out of the "Translation" article to a more appropriate article, or starting a separate "Military interpreting" article.

Regards, Nihil novi (talk) 21:37, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Nihil novi I don't feel as those the article has to much detail, nor compared to the rest of the article. The section on Interpreting, is roughly the same length. One could argue that the section on Austria-Hungary is to in depth however, per individual formatting of this article, individual events are stated. I do agree that a full article is warranted, but this sub-section in the article is nowhere near long enough to be created into a full length article, without it being a stub. Interpreting is indeed a specific field of translation as interpreting deals with in oral translation in person, although interpreting is still translation, and using the term interchangeably as synonyms are correct I agree that such distinctions should be made. I think the best course is to create a main article on Military translation and hyperlink it here. Many thanks. Des Vallee (talk) 00:05, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@Des Vallee: In the language industry, I can assure you that interpreting is exclusive to listening (i.e. speech), and translating is exclusive to reading (i.e. text). The only people who confuse the two are those who don't work in this field.

This is based on my experience of going through the graduate Translation & Interpretation program at the Monterey Institute of International Studies (since renamed to the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey) and then working in the translation and interpretation industry for twenty-odd years. Someone can be an interpreter, and someone can be a translator, and someone can be both. But being the one does not entail that one is also the other -- these are very different skillsets. See also the thread above on #Sight_translation, which includes a link to relevant content on the MIIS website.

From this perspective, neither the #Military_Translation nor the #Austro-Hungarian_Empire sections that you recently added belong in this article, since both discuss Interpretation of speech, and not Translation of texts.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ 08:24, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Eirikr Both sections discuss translation, as in the act of conversion of one language to another. The issue with taking the profession approach is that this article isn't about translators, it's about translation as in the dictionary term of converting speech, written or spoken into another, and is by far the most used context. In fact the term translation is used in even broader contexts then this. This is directly shown in the article itself as interpreting is already directly listed in translation. This term is also used for a broader array of terms, such as cultural localization, although this is unrelated to this article. Per the basis that articles are written on the context they are used in. Des Vallee (talk) 23:07, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@Des Vallee: What you write above – "I think the best course is to create a main article on Military translation and hyperlink it here" – does indeed seem the best course of action. (However, "Military interpreting" would be a more accurate title, as the focus is on facilitating oral communication in military contexts.) Will you soon be able to implement your initiative? Thanks. Nihil novi (talk) 08:21, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Nihil novi Yes this will take a large amount of time however so I am finding articles on the subject and also the formatting of the article. The section however discusses both translation into text and speech, and this is important. As an example the section on the Austro-Hungarian empire primarily discusses translation into text, particularly in the context of higher orders and the Austro-Hungarian Compromise of 1867 and it's translation. Des Vallee (talk) 15:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

@Nihil novi and Des Vallee: I endorse the idea of moving this material to another article, and leaving a brief summary here, following summary style. Also, I endorse the proposed title change to "interpreting", as I don't see anything in the current content about translation. That said however, content could certainly be found for military translation, so I think the article could have larger scope and be called Military interpreting and translation (or Translation and interpretation in the military). Des Vallee, since you added the section, you should get first shot at moving the content out and starting the new article. However, I don't think it should be left here too long, and if you are busy or believe it would take you a large amount of time, I can do it for you, because I'm used to creating articles, and could do it quickly. I could either leave it as a WP:DRAFT, so you could continue to develop it according to your vision of it, or I could just move it to its own article outright. Let me know what course of action you prefer. (please  mention me on reply; thanks!) Mathglot (talk) 20:52, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

• @Des Vallee: Regardless of any invocation of WP:COMMONNAME, the very first sentence of the article states (bold+italics mine):

Translation is the communication of the meaning of a source-language text by means of an equivalent target-language text.

Rather that the sections on military translation and the Austro-Hungarian empire, as they currently stand on 2022-04-18, deal primarily with spoken speech rather than text, I would be in firm support of moving this content to some other page. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ 10:14, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

@Des Vallee: In light of the above discussion, I will be deleting the recently added "military translation" section from the "Translation" article. When you are ready to submit a new article specifically on military interpreting, you can find your material in an earlier edition of "Translation". Thank you. Nihil novi (talk) 19:18, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Supply chain network design is the process of building and modeling a supply chain to better understand the costs and time associated with bringing goods to market with the resources and location available

Supply chain network design is the process of building and modeling a supply chain to better understand the costs and time associated with bringing goods to market with the resources and location available 176.18.79.144 (talk) 21:43, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

What is your point? What has this to do with translation?

Nihil novi (talk) 07:50, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

@Nihil novi: I believe a lot of the strange disruptive edits on this page are the result of confused anonymous users attempting to request translation. If this continues, we might need to ask admins to protect the page. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ 17:17, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Etymology of "translation"

Until 30 December 2024, the opening paragraph of the "Translation" article's "Etymology" section read:

The word for the concept of "translation" in English and in some other European languages derives from the Latin noun translatio, which comes from trans + ferre (-latio in turn coming from latus, the past participle of ferre). Thus, translatio is a "carrying" or "bringing across" of a text from one language to another.

On 30 December 2024, User:TheRevisionary interpolated, after "in English and in some other European languages derives from", and before "Latin noun", the words: "Old French, before the subsequent".

Every English dictionary that I have consulted derives the English word "translation" ultimately, as above, from the Latin, even if en passant sometimes via medieval French. The French language itself is one of many languages that draw from the Latin wellspring. TheRevisionary's source for claiming that the English word "translation" derives from Old French, "translation/Etymology of translation". www.etymonline.com. Retrieved 2024-12-30., likewise supports the ultimate derivation of "translation" from the Latin.

Not only have the Romance languages directly modeled their expressions on the Latin prototypes, the noun translatio or the verb traduco, but all the Slavic languages and virtually all the Germanic ones have calqued their terms for the concept on one or the other Latin source-word.

TheRevisionary's interpolation injects an observation that, in this context, would be too niggling even for a footnote, in addition to making the entire sentence clumsy. I therefore, on 31 December 2024, deleted it. On the same day, he restored it.

It should be definitively removed.

Respectfully, Nihil novi (talk) 08:18, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

If you read the revision history of the page before noticing my most previous update, you would acknowledge that there had been a revision of referencing, in accordance with WP:CITE, after it was subject to a formatting error on my behalf. This is notwithstanding of the fact that an editor spoke with me regarding the matter, which you may investigate for yourself on my talk page, before I immediately rectified such when requested.

Any individual who has access to a search browser before researching the issue - specifically translation's etymology - would distinguish that, as per numerous definitions available, there are specific as well as elaborate sources emanating it from Old French before then detailing the matter. There are dozens of pieces of documentation available online pertaining it to the Middle Ages within France, likewise with respective dictionaries.

Furthermore, I'm not entirely certain why you forwarded the broken formatting within the third citation that I subsequently resolved upon attention; That was already removed by your edit, and irrespective of the fact that it was rescinded by my behalf, I reiterate that I have resolved the format. Whether these contradict WP:LGL policy or not, these seem to be an argument against my addition that now have neither bearing nor relevance.

The final assertion before the edit revocation was that it was nonsensical, despite having not issued anything within WP:POLICY behind why it is, a measure perceived as quite an unreasonable and arbitrary attempt to reject my edit and perhaps even a contradiction of WP:LAY regulations.

Should you have any form of query in relation to the etymological description, et cetera, then I would request you forward such to my behalf.

Sincerely, TheRevisionary (talk) 14:40, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

TheRevisionary, I have difficulty understanding what you write above. You seem to be addressing some sort of formatting error "on my behalf" (which I take to mean "by me").

That entirely skirts two crucial matters:

1. Your revision of the text to read "The word for the concept of 'translation' in English and in some other European languages derives from Old French..." provides no evidence for Old French having been the source for the words for the concept of "translation" in those other European languages.

2. The fact remains that the words for the concept of "translation" in virtually all European languages, including English, derive directly or indirectly from two Latin words; and that singling out an Old French word in the case of the English word "translation" is misleading (by your own source) and is altogether UNDUE.

Nihil novi (talk) 02:13, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

I request that you read my response to your notice again; I haven't referred to you in that sentence alone in that specific phrase.

Sincerely, TheRevisionary (talk) 23:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I could not understand what you wrote on 1 January 2025, and I can't understand what you wrote just above on 5 January.

Could you explain your meaning to someone who knows your native language and can rephrase it in English?

Nihil novi (talk) 08:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

The WP:CITE comment by TheRevisonary must be about their edit on December 30 where the reference template was not filled in. Someone mentioned that on TheRevisonary's user talk, and they restored the text with new references.

Not that the cite error has anything to do with the content of the page, as you point out. The main problem is that the added etymology is not well supported by the Etymonline source and not even mentioned by the Cambridge source. Also, as it stands now the text implies that Old French is an older language than Latin, which is just wrong. For those reasons, I think that TheRevisonary's edit should be reverted. Sjö (talk) 20:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I have acknowledged Nihil novi's objections forwarded a week ago; This was an internet-related issue with using source code. Since they have now been correctly defined in their timeline, there should be no reason regarded as WP:UNDUE for removal.

If they have any further queries relating to the subject at hand, then I am perfectly satisfied with responding to their issue.

Sincerely, TheRevisionary (talk) 16:05, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Please see Sjö's note of 7 January, above, which makes perfectly clear why your interpolation of "before the subsequent Old French word 'translation'" (which your first source actually gives as "translacion") is irrelevant, inappropriate, and should be removed.

Nihil novi (talk) 19:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

References

1. Vélez, Fabio. Antes de Babel. pp. 3–21.
2. Christopher Kasparek, "The Translator's Endless Toil", p. 83.
3. . insert. Retrieved 2024-09-dd. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help); Check date values in: |access-date= (help)

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