| Revision as of 23:58, 21 June 2005 editMustafaa (talk | contribs)14,180 edits →Needs lots more info← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 12:56, 24 December 2024 edit undo12.146.12.2 (talk) →far northwest africa as arab as arabian peninsula to the east: new sectionTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit New topic |
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==User:Arab== |
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{{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=a-i|section=yes}} |
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There is a "user page" with basically the same content but reworded and ''Ibrahim'' for the patriarch's name. If a contributory wants to take the user name ''Arab'', I have no problem with that, but let's not confuse a user page with an article page. ], Wednesday, April 10, 2002 |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|vital=yes|class=C|collapsed=y|1= |
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{{WikiProject Ethnic groups |importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Arab world |importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Yemen |importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Saudi Arabia |importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Western Asia |importance=high |Bahrain=yes |Bahrain-importance=high |Kuwait=yes |Kuwait-importance=high |Qatar=yes |Qatar-importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Palestine|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Lebanon |importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Syria |importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Iraq |importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Egypt |importance=Mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Africa |importance=High |Libya=yes |Libya-importance=high |Tunisia=yes |Tunisia-importance=Top |Somalia=yes |Somalia-importance=high}} |
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}} |
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{{Copied|from=Arabs|from_oldid=754076258|to=Arab identity|diff={{fullurl:Special:Diff/754078242}}|date=10 December 2016}} |
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{{Copied|from=Arabs|from_oldid=756042171|to=Demographics of the Arab League|diff={{fullurl:Special:Diff/756044738}}|date=21 December 2016}} |
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* <nowiki>]</nowiki> Anchor ] links to a specific web page: ]. The anchor (#Mecca) ]. <!-- {"title":"Mecca","appear":{"revid":691997701,"parentid":691986190,"timestamp":"2015-11-23T13:04:12Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":,"replaced_anchors":{"Other religions in northern Arabia":"Other cultures in northern Arabia"}},"disappear":{"revid":843186088,"parentid":842489579,"timestamp":"2018-05-27T13:34:28Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} --> |
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== Wrong information == |
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The following text was moved from user:Arab because it seems more like it applies to the ] article than to a Misplaced Pages contributor. ] |
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This is just generalizing on entire groups of people with different cultures and ancestries that they are all Arabs. This article like ] is entirely misleading. There are Arabic speaking people ] of Iranian Ancestry and ] of origin, further more ] and ] in generally have completely ] (same with ] most of which are ]) and history and ] influenced by their older languages. The ethnic Arabs are those with high level of J1 Haplogroup such as Yemen and Saudi, and that's it. Actual Arabs are a minority everywhere else. ] (]) 16:33, 20 September 2024 (UTC) |
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Arab (noun) - descibes a person of Arabic descent. |
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:You appear to be conflating ethnicity with haplogroups. ] (]) 17:22, 20 September 2024 (UTC) |
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Historically, an Arab is descendant from one of two sons of the Prophet Ibrahim. The other son's linage is claimed by the Jews |
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::I understand the distinction you're drawing, but ethnicity is about more than just language. It's a complex combination of shared cultural practices, language, history, and sometimes genetic ancestry. My point is that labeling entire populations as "Arabs" based solely on the fact that they speak Arabic today ignores the diverse ethnic and cultural backgrounds of these groups. |
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::For example, many people in Bahrain ], despite speaking Arabic, retain distinct Persian cultural and ancestral ties—our cuisine, music, language, and traditions have been preserved over time. Similarly, North Africans, like the ], have their own rich history and culture, which predates the introduction of Arabic. These differences are often reflected in local dialects, influenced by older languages and cultures. |
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::Haplogroups, while not the sole determinant of ethnicity, are helpful in understanding deep ancestral origins, especially when discussing the relatively small populations of ethnic Arabs (e.g., in Yemen and parts of Saudi Arabia) compared to the broader Arabic-speaking world. |
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::According to Cambridge, is a noun that refers to a large group of people who have the same national, ], or ] origins, or the state of belonging to such a group - we share none of that with Syrians or Egyptians, we don't speak the same dialect, our culture is entirely different, and we never ever felt like we belong to such groups, they look nothing like us, have different dialects, have different cultures, and our history is entirely different. |
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::Last but not least; I was brainwashed to identify as Arab as a child in school (how is that consensual?) and did so for some time, and then we got older and realize we're all not Arabs. So whatever you say or write, we will always remain as such. I am proud of being able to speak Arabic (Bahraini-which is heavily influenced by Persian), but that's were our similarities end, many words in our dialect are not even understood by Egyptians and co. I also speak English, and Persian, both Bushehri and Iranian/Tehrani,so what am I then? |
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::Moreover, of scholars like ] and ] to Arab culture is factually incorrect. ] (]) 19:03, 20 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== Map == |
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==Copyvio== |
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Haisam - please don't copy and paste that text from again - that page is copyrighted, and so we can't reproduce it here. See ]. You're free to weave in the info on that page of course, but you have to do it in an original way, rather than simply copying it across. --] |
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The map in the lede is a bit misleading. Rather than grading on amount of Arabs on each country, it should be done on the percentage of the population being Arab. ] (]) 12:43, 13 October 2024 (UTC) |
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-------- Original Message -------- |
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Camembert: |
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:The percentages are not mentioned in the article. ] (]) 12:49, 13 October 2024 (UTC) |
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Here's the authorization to use the definition: |
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::Good point ] (]) 12:53, 13 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semitic language == |
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Message-ID: <025c01c2aa9d$43a0e340$7201a8c0@adc.org> |
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From: Marvin Wingfield <marvinw@adc.org> |
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To: <haisam@ido.org> |
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Subject: Definition of Arab |
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Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:03:51 -0500 |
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Semitic is a proto-language or a family. The article should not reference a "Semitic language", because it is not an attested language. It is only known through historical reconstruction. ] (]) 09:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC) |
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Mr. Ido: |
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I am not quite clear as to what you are asking. You are free to used |
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the ADC definition. It is the ordinary agreed on definition. An Arab |
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is someone whose primary language is Arabic, who shares in the common |
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culture and history of the Arab world. |
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:"Semitic language" is the ordinary way to characterize a language as a member of the Semitic language family, in the same way that we say English is an Indo-European language, Malagasy is an Austronesian language, etc. ] (]) 16:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC) |
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] |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 November 2024 == |
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Hm. I see no indication that the person you contacted is aware of the ramifications of placing their text under terms of the ]. This is very different than a one time grant to use the text (which is implied in the message). If the it is OK for us to use it then please ''integrate'' the text into the current article and don't replace it. --] 23:29 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC) |
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==Berbers, semitic, white?== |
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'' The Berber peoples of North Africa, for example, though often called Arabs by Westerners, are connected to Arabia only by often speaking Arabic as a second language, since that remains the official language of the country in which they live as a result of the Arab expansion.'' |
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:Never have I heard anyone refer to the Berbers as being Arabs. Should this be removed? |
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''Racially, an Arab is a person of Arabic descent, whose original ancestry comes from the Arabian Peninsula. Arabs are a Semitic people, who trace their ancestry from the ancient patriarch Abraham.'' |
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:I don't see how this makes sense. The Arabs are racially very mixed, as they're descended from a mixture of conquored/assilimated peoples and millions of slaves from throughout the Old World. |
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::This applies better to the Islamic faith, which claims its founders were descended from Ishmael. --] 00:12, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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{{edit extended-protected|Arabs|answered=yes}} |
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First sentence of fourth paragraph states 'during the middle ages arabs fostered a vast arab union'. This should be changed to something such as 'After the emergence of Islam in the 7th century an unprecedented conquest established a vast Arab empire'. The term 'arab union' is highly anachronistic and the accompanying description fails to capture the reality of this remarkable and violent (see: fostered) event. ] (]) 19:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done''': it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 09:36, 5 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== The map colours are very misleading == |
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''Arabs are racially classified as White. '' |
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The black and dark green colours are too similar, which could lead to a misconception thinking Brazil and Turkey are Arabic or something. I propose using a different colour scale for non-Arabic countries. ] ]<sup>/</sup>] 08:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Um. Which classification scheme are we using here? Because by language, Arabs are ], as the article makes clear; by "]", they are "]", yes, but we all know ]. --] 08:43, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC) |
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== far northwest africa as arab as arabian peninsula to the east == |
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according to this, almost eerie map legend implying whole populations 'erased' and arabized (which does imply genetics, thus 'eerie', as in potentially irreversibly altered to 'foreigners' more likely preference). it'd be like, take italy today, with a long antique and roman history, was depicted today as much say 'russian' as very russia itself, despite the distance, and historical differences. wouldn't you at least wonder whose/if so agenda it served, to see it that way.. |
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==Definition of Arab== |
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in the maps, morocco in the far west is depicted as arab as arabia to the far east, plus the article mentions ancestry as a continuum within the arab sphere.. well, if its indigenous ancestry, and not clear cut sudden to 'appear' at some point in history, would seem to matter.. ] (]) 12:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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<i>such as the Maronite Christian Arabic-speakers of Lebanon, or the Arabic-speaking Copts of Egypt, or Arabic-speaking Jews, reject this definition, wishing to identify not with a group defined by language but with a narrower one defined by religion or shared communal history.</i> |
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Huh? First of all, the classification of "Arab" is not based on language (at least, not anymore...there was a period when this kind of Arab Nationalism was popular during the Ottomon period, but not anymore). Second, only an extreme fringe of Civil War-period Maronites reject the label of "Arab". I myself am a "Maronite Christian Arabic-speaker of Lebanon" and I take offence at such a claim. The only real, modern definition of an Arab is someone who is a citizen of an Arab League nation. --] 13:03, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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*Hi Jad. Though I wrote most of that paragraph, I sympathise with some of your objections to it... I mentioned that some Maronites reject the label "Arab" because I've actually talked to several such people; but I agree, we should make it much clearer that this is an extremist minority. As for the "Arab = speaker of Arabic", though, I think that makes a lot more sense than "Arab = citizen of Arab League nation"; if you call a ] or a ] or a ] "Arab", the substantial majority of them (though not all) would strongly disagree, and conversely, the Arab minority in southern Iran or southeastern Turkey or Chad is no less Arab for having happened to fall outside the borders of the Arab League. - ] 19:10, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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**True, but I think we need to add both definitions: the sociopolitical as well as the ethnoliguistic, because, as you just pointed out, neither is enough as a definition. Maybe we should distinguish between Arab peoples and Arabic peoples, the first refering to the political definition, and the second referring to the linguistic definition. In this way, the minorities in Iran, Turkey and Chad would be Arabic minorities, and not Arab. I know that this may seem like a frustrating play in semantics, but I think that its the only way to deal with the two point of views while mantaining NPOV. Is that alright with you? |
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So, why don't you expand the part on the minorities within Arab nations, and add that part on Arabic minorities within non-Arab nations? |
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*Hmmm... How about something like this: |
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:There are three factors which play varying degrees in determining whether someone is considered Arab or not: |
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# Political: whether they live in a country which is a member of the ]. |
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# Linguistic: whether their mother tongue is ]. |
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# Genealogical: whether they can trace their ancestry back to the original inhabitants of the ]. |
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The relative importance of these factors is estimated differently by different groups. The third factor was the original definition used in medieval times, but is usually no longer considered to be particularly significant. - ] 20:18, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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**Great work Mustafaa...I think we have achieved NPOV! Total wikiness in action! --] 05:35, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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----------------- |
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Ok: |
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According to Habib Hassan Touma (1996, p.xviii), "The essence of Arabian culture is wrapped up in: |
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* the Arabic language... |
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* Islam... |
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* Tradition..." |
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Maronites do not practice Islam. Not Arab. Simple. |
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On its formation in 1946, the Arab League defined an "Arab" as follows: |
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"An Arab is a person whose language is Arabic, who lives in an Arabic speaking country, who is in sympathy with the aspirations of the Arabic speaking peoples." |
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Maronites speak Arabic, but their liturgy is in Aramaic, and they often speak French and English fluently, and often primarily. And their sympathies typically lie with the nation of Lebanon first, and secondly with the WEST. Therefore, not Arab. These are westernized people who worship Christ and who happen to have adopted Arabic due to proximity and previous invasions. How does this make them arab? |
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==Most of the scholars were AJAM (every body who was not Arab)== |
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Strange is that the scholars generally were no Arabs and this applies both to the scientists in Islam and in science. And if there is an Arab under them, then he is '''Arabised'''. Nevertheless the owner of CHARIA (Islamic legislation) came from '''their middle'''. And this comes because the Arabs are ignorant and have had never knowledge. Even those '''whom Arab grammar products has made expatriate'''. First Sibawayh were from '''the Persian realm''' and then Al-Zajaaj, these two were AJAM (everyone who is no Arab). The expatriate have made grammar for the Arabs and learned '''them the Arab language''', art, laws and educate science. '''The most which Al-Hadith after to products have told of origin no Arabs'''. Then the Islamic scholars were not almost all Arabs. The Arabs could not write, note and not to express. And all those scientists who and have explained products have noted Islamic leathers and '''Arab grammar''' and have kept no Arabs of origin. '''Science was conducted by the Persian scientists''', whereas the Arabs for competing with were concerning the power. The Arabs have ternauwernood interfered with science. The industry was carried out by the '''Arabised'''. When the Arabs devastate Egypt and the power there got, the '''Egyptians''' have kept themselves busy with science and Egypt was the country of science and industry. To these '''Arabised''' which kept themselves busy with science were: SAAD ADDIEN ATAFTAZI, IBN ALKHTIEB, NASR ADDIEN ATTUSIE. The work of other '''Arabiseds''' has been destroyed. () |
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hai, mustafaa, why you delite this frenquenly ? he is an arab according to you. and i didn't brought it from my books, it was in the almuqaddimah of the great arab historian. who can he be an great '''''arab historian''''' if we cannot use his works? ,i'll translate other works |
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and are you saying that i attempt to revange ? are you feeling dat did anything wrong against me ? .] 12:57, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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To put something in a Misplaced Pages article, it has to be relevant. I could simply paste vast translations from ] (or is he Berber?) into this article, and he talks about "Arabs", but that wouldn't make them relevant or interesting. Moreover, I'm tired of correcting your English; from now on, if you add a lengthy section which reads like a Japlish VCR manual, I'll just delete it until you fix it yourself. - ] 02:38, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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if you are tired ,late it to an other who can that.] 14:12, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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It would be Nice of the Iranians to agree to a common mispelling of english for all of us to agree on. |
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] |
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== Page protection == |
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Folks, I protected this page so we can have a rest from this reversion war to a while. You can list objections here, but note that protection is completely within the guidelines in these circumstances. --] 23:06, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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i'm disagree sir : ''''Zero''' , i think that you protected mustafaa not the page. ] 12:09, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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ibn khaldun used the name arab as bedouin ? who say that ? is that not a claim ? is that not couinterfeiting ? |
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and further are the moor not Mauri's but mix of arab and berber? this wikipedia is beeing to became a '''theatre''' not ensyclopidia .] 12:15, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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OK: does ''anybody'' watching this article think it's improved by adding a long, random Ibn Khaldun quote translated from Dutch? I don't... - ] 18:22, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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not me...i don't even understand it...--] 07:50, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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...and who write with ease concerning his beautiful historie ?] 11:55, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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:There needs to be a good article on ibn Khaldun. Hopefully someone will write one. But the text doesn't belong on this article. Thank you for making us aware of the quote though. ] ] 17:39, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC) |
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==But it does bring up a point...== |
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Do you think we need to add a section on what "Arabized" means? For example, I know that the Christian Spaniards during the Arab conquest of Spain were considered to be Arabized, and now there is a word in English to describe them (Mozarabs)which comes from the Arabic word for Arabized (Musta'arab). Just a thought... --] 08:03, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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:I think that would be a great idea. ] ] 17:35, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC) |
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::Excellent idea. Maybe here, or maybe at ]? - ] 09:22, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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no and no... i liked just show some body how ibn khadlun is the historian of the arab. ] 11:55, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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...i don't mean to be rude, but i think you should stop posting on the english wikipedia. why don't you write for the dutch version? then you won't have to deal with pesky people like mustafaa ;-) ok? you might be making a great point with your contribution...the only problem is we can't understand it (or at least, ''I'' can't). --] 06:41, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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== Indian numbering system (unrelated to any discussion) == |
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This is unrelated to the current discussion. In India, an ancient numbering system is still in place. '''See ]'''. We use terms such as ], ] and ]. 1 arab is equivalent to 1 billion, (9 zeros). Once the current dispute is resolved, please put up a <nowiki>{{otheruses}}</nowiki> template on top of the arab page, and update the newly created link. ]</font>]] 19:50, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC) |
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:The page is no longer protected. Go for it. ] ] 17:42, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC) |
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::Thanks, mission accomplished. ]</font>]] 20:23, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC) |
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It would be better to comment on the Arabized Arabs such as the Adanite branch (rather than the qahtani Arab pure branch) the Vast majority of the Arabs are Adanite (from Adnan)] |
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==Needs lots more info== |
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This article strikes me as needing a lot of improvement. Some things I immediately notice: |
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#It mentions two traditional groups, the "original Arabs" and the "Arabacized Arabs" but what about the well known third group, the "extinct/lost Arabs"? More detail about the ancient clans in all these groups would be useful. |
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#Jewish tradition does not say that Ishmael is the ancestor of the Arabs, it says he is the ancestor of the Ishmaelites a people who had disappeared from history by the time of Solomon. Josephus says that he was the "founder" of the Arabians but does not use the word for ancestor and calls the Ishmaelites _an Arabian people_ indicating that he was aware of other Arabians. Arab historians had various opinions regarding Ishmael, several producing mutually contradictory attempts at linking Adnan to him while others rejected such genealogies. All this should be mentioned for both completeness and neutrality. Similarly the highly conjectural nature of the equation of Joktan with Qahtan needs to be mentioned for the sake of neutrality (Hebrew form of Qahtan is Kachtan unrelated to Joktan.) |
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#Regarding early references to Arabs and Gindibu it should be pointed out for the sake of completeness and neutrality that there were several different words in ancient inscriptions and in the Bible commonly translated as "Arab" or "Arabian" but that they are not necessarily all the same group (in the Bible we have `arvi, `arviyi, `arvi'i, `aravi, `araavi) and moreover the meaning of the words translated "Arab" or "Arabian" were not always the same (desert dwellers, mixed people, eloquant/pure, person from Arabaya in Assyria, person from the Syrian desert, person from the Arabian peninsula) - its complicated so one is tempted to ignore these subtleties but we need to rise above that. |
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#More info on modern groupings/divisions amongst the Arabs, lingusitic, "ethnic", cultural etc. |
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] 23:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
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:It is a minority view that the Ishmaelites are not Arabs, one that shouldn't be pushed in this article.]<sup><small><font color="#FF8C00">]</font></small></sup> 23:26, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
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::Its not a minority view, its a scholarly view based on what is actually said by historians (mainly Arab historians). Unfortunately it is a topic that has become tangled up with fundamentalist Christian polemics against Islam which has politicized the subject and made people defensive of points of view which in reality have little bearing on religion. ] 23:43, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
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# That could be interesting, yes; is a good source for that. |
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# Arab tradition says Ishmael was ancestor of the northern ("Arabized") Arabs. Jewish tradition says that Ishmael was ancestor of the Ishmaelites, identified already in the Bible with Midianites; as the Arabs become more historically prominent, it tends more and more to identify the Ishmaelites with Arabs, and the Josephus quote you allude to is useful information on that subject, though I would think a detailed investigation of the term "Ishmaelite" and its shifts would belong in ]. Calling the Ishmaelites "a people who had disappeared from history by the time of Solomon" seems somewhat ahistorical, given that the existence of Solomon itself is in question. The equation of Joktan with Qahtan is of course most probably nonsense (did either even exist?), but it's nonsense with a long pedigree. I think "identified with" already makes its conjecturality reasonably clear. |
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# Certainly some uses of the term Arab may be generic rather than specific. That applies not only to the fifteenth century BC, but to the fifteenth century AD! The case of Gindibu seems reasonably clear, being confirmed by the etymology of the name, and is generally cited. However, the article should probably have more on the early attestations of the Arabic language, those being a more certain indicator, and later on the traditional histories of the ]s and their like. Heck, it should have a real history section; that's the most obvious gap! |
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# Maybe. Linguistic doesn't belong here - see ] - but certain ethno-cultural divisions, especially the basic one between Bedouin and settled folk, might be worth discussing. - ] 23:58, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
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This is just generalizing on entire groups of people with different cultures and ancestries that they are all Arabs. This article like Persians is entirely misleading. There are Arabic speaking people in Bahrain of Iranian Ancestry and most Kuwaitis are Iranian of origin, further more Egyptians and North Africans in generally have completely different genetics (same with Morocans most of which are Amazigh) and history and dialects of Arabic influenced by their older languages. The ethnic Arabs are those with high level of J1 Haplogroup such as Yemen and Saudi, and that's it. Actual Arabs are a minority everywhere else. Mrox2 (talk) 16:33, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
The map in the lede is a bit misleading. Rather than grading on amount of Arabs on each country, it should be done on the percentage of the population being Arab. Kowal2701 (talk) 12:43, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Semitic is a proto-language or a family. The article should not reference a "Semitic language", because it is not an attested language. It is only known through historical reconstruction. 83.110.109.171 (talk) 09:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
First sentence of fourth paragraph states 'during the middle ages arabs fostered a vast arab union'. This should be changed to something such as 'After the emergence of Islam in the 7th century an unprecedented conquest established a vast Arab empire'. The term 'arab union' is highly anachronistic and the accompanying description fails to capture the reality of this remarkable and violent (see: fostered) event. Mdmagnitogorsk (talk) 19:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
The black and dark green colours are too similar, which could lead to a misconception thinking Brazil and Turkey are Arabic or something. I propose using a different colour scale for non-Arabic countries. Youprayteas 08:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
according to this, almost eerie map legend implying whole populations 'erased' and arabized (which does imply genetics, thus 'eerie', as in potentially irreversibly altered to 'foreigners' more likely preference). it'd be like, take italy today, with a long antique and roman history, was depicted today as much say 'russian' as very russia itself, despite the distance, and historical differences. wouldn't you at least wonder whose/if so agenda it served, to see it that way..
in the maps, morocco in the far west is depicted as arab as arabia to the far east, plus the article mentions ancestry as a continuum within the arab sphere.. well, if its indigenous ancestry, and not clear cut sudden to 'appear' at some point in history, would seem to matter.. 12.146.12.2 (talk) 12:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 09:36, 5 November 2024 (UTC)