Misplaced Pages

Talk:Ghetto benches: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 20:41, 9 October 2007 editM0RD00R (talk | contribs)6,187 edits →Few or many← Previous edit Latest revision as of 19:29, 14 February 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk | contribs)Bots7,771,517 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 3 WikiProject templates. Keep majority rating "Start" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 3 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Jewish history}}, {{WikiProject Poland}}, {{WikiProject Discrimination}}.Tag: Talk banner shell conversion 
(320 intermediate revisions by 36 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Talk header|search=yes}}
{{WikiProject Jewish history|class=start|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Poland|class=start|importance=mid}} {{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|1=
{{WikiProject Discrimination|class=start|importance=mid}} {{WikiProject Jewish history|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Poland|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Discrimination|importance=mid}}
}}
{{DYK talk|10 October|2007|entry=...that segregated seating known as ''']''' ("] desks" or "ghetto benches") were introduced in ] universities in the late 1930s, primarily for ]ish students?}}
{{Broken anchors|links=
* <nowiki>]</nowiki>
}}


==On distinction between " well referenced and relevant info" and WP:SYN==
==Title==
Is this title used in English historiography? Further, wouldn't ''bench ghetto'' be a better translation of ''ghetto ławkowe''?--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


Apparenly we have disagreement what is "well referenced and relevant info" and what is ]
Transliteration is enough. We do not translate slogans from another language - unless the expression already exists in the naitive language.
:The same is true of Book titles, for example.
::Consider this: ]. It's Russian - ans tays so. --] 18:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
:::This is not a book title, however. If the phenomena has a name used in English literature, we should use it. The question is - is there such a term?--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 18:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


Let's look deeper in to it.
Since it has been shown that the term is used in English sources, and is usually translated, I'd suggest moving the article to either ] (more literal translation) or ] (less correct, but for some reason more widely used).--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 00:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


We have this text now:
== ] on the ]s ==


''In the third week of October 1939 there was a liquidation meeting with NKVD directed by lieutenant-colonel Jusimow, during which communist Jewish activists recognized pre-war Polish members of an anti-Semitic organization from their college and pointed them out to NKVD officers. All four were taken out, beaten and shot in the hallway while the NKVD orchestra was performing inside. Their names were: Henryk Różakolski, Jan Płończak (from the student Bratniak organization), Ludwik Płaczek, and Józef Obrocki. The meeting was terminated, shocked people left the hall walking past their murdered colleagues.''
;]


We have sources that this incident happened. Fine, no one is denying it. What we do not have is source linking this incident with the topic of this article, ghetto benches that is. Source number 26 does not even mention ghetto benches, link 27 is a dead link, which previously referenced that ghetto benches activists were persecuted under Soviets, but what is important, it does not talk about this particular incident. So we have perfect example of ] here. Regards. ] (]) 19:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I think we need to remind people that after Hitler finished with the he planned to do the same with the rest of the Slavs - including the ]. So maybe we need the following article: ] - that where the Poles would sit when still admitted into German Nazi universities - to keep the Nazis "uncontaminated" by Slavik presence. --] 18:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
:I think it is incorrect to put Hitler's implementation of his racial theories and Polish antisemitism into the same ballpark. The situation of Jews in the nationalist interwar Poland while certainly a notable example of state-supported mob antisemitism cannot be really compared not only with the situation of the Jews under Reich but also with the situation of Poles under the ]. Let's not exaggerate thus undermining the Misplaced Pages's credibility. The situation with minorities in the interwar Poland was bad enough in its own right and does not have to be compared with the Hitler's genocidal regime to make a point. --] 18:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


:I fully agree; note that previous attempts to remove this OR synth have been met with edit warring. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 19:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
There are some related articles: ], ]. I am not familiar with the term ''polski ławkowe'', it seems gramatically incorrect.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 18:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


:] Poeticbent clearly noted that the references do note relation to ghetto benches.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 21:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
== Polish antisemitism ==
Please avoid undiscussed moves and rewrites in such controversial issues. This article is about ''ghetto ławkowe'', not antisemitism in Poland. We are not discussing antisemitism by country; see also ], and think why there is no article on ] or ], for example. Hence, '''object''' to move to ].--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 18:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
:Agree with the call to never make undiscussed sweeping moves. ], OTOH, is a notable topic and may have its own article but it would have to be written from scratch rather that having it based on a narrow aspect of it, however shameful. --] 18:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
::There should be not only ], but ] as well. And let's not forget or leave out ]. Unfortunately, that to much work for any one editor. --] 18:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I have no objection to a separate article on any notable topic if it is written encyclopedically, carefully, in good faith and academic style rather than to make a point or grind an ax. It is easy to see which is the case from the article's onset. If anyone is willing write such articles, I would have no ''a priori'' objections. But if such articles are created in the nonsense Digwuren's ax-grinding style of ''Soviet occupations of THIS and THAT'', it would be another story. --] 18:45, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
:My comment was wiped out by you beating me to the punch. It appears that this (if accurately described) is an aspect of ]. Are we to have now a little article on every anysemitic phrase or usage in every foreign language? This is a Polish usage, and it seems to small to have a place of its own. What's the problem with starting an article dubbed ]? Or is it that we need an article "]s" too (in the South of the US before the '60's)? How about ]? --] 18:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


::Can we have exact quote which links NKVD incident with ghetto benches, because I'm having trouble to find it. Or is it too much to ask? As far as I know ] is still a policy, and ] isn't. Cheers. ] (]) 21:20, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
::Segregated seating for Jewish students in Poland is a notable phenomenon in its own right and deserves an article, this is all what I am saying. The Polish antisemitism is a much wider topic. --] 18:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
] indeed was significant event in the history of Jews in Poland. But renaming it to the ] would be a stretch. Although it would be very educational to have an article on apologetics of persecutions of Jews and Holocaust denial in ], but as this article does not exist yet to call new article on this subject ] would not be quite fair, despite that similar examples show what some areas of Wiki is not about fairness. ] 21:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


:::This is a textbook example of ]. To call the "aftermath" of this episode the retaliation against some of the purported perpetrators of the antisemitic Polish actions against Jewish students, when the ''actual'' aftermath was the murder of 3 million Polish Jews which Polish antisemitic legislation helped lay a groundwork for is an amazing twisting of history. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 21:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
:::] showed 18 hits on ] for "bench ghetto" (some with ]). The hits included scholarly books on Antisemitism. --] 21:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Polish legislation was made to create Holocaust ? I suggest backing that up, as it seems serious allegation.--] (]) 22:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
::::::Yes it's true but "Ghetto benches" gives us 224 hits of mostly academic books on google books. So it beats "bench ghetto" on popularity by far. ] 21:52, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


:::::Piotr asked me to provide my opinion. The first question is: what is the topic of the article? The "ghetto benches" considered narrowly, or "Discrimination against Jews in education in Poland" It seems to me to be the second. "Ghetto benches" being used like ] in US literature. As far as I can tell, from what Piotr points to in Poeticbent's statements above ], the references do support connection of this incident as revenge for anti-semitic discrimination in education and even the "ghetto benches" in particular. One can argue that Polish discrimination in education was an effect of Polish antisemitic legislation, and perhaps that the latter was an indirect and minor cause of the murder of 3 million Polish Jews, but relating, without a source, educational discrimination to murdering 3 million seems to be OR. Whatever material one has, there is usually a good article to put it in; doing this, not putting it in the fashionable article du jour usually avoids pointless wrangling. Both the material about "Polish independence was ushered in with a wave of fierce anti-Semitism ..." and the more recent material about Max Bodenheimmer have serious OR / SYN problems in my opinion. The quote from Melzer, only found in the footnotes "In fact, ever since the attainment of independence, the universities in Poland had been strongholds of Endejca supporters and centers for anti-semitic agitation.” seems to be a non-OR, without major "synthesis" objections, replacement for some of this. Regards to all,] (]) 22:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
::::Good observation, MORDOOR. I've put that into the article. --] 11:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


I'll try to explain my point again. There are two sources: one cited by Poeticbent (Chapter For the record of this talk page), that mentions persecution of Ghetto benches activists (but does not mention this execution). And there is another source about NKVD execution - it has all the fancy stuff, that is repeatedly inserted here by Piotrus and Poeticbent (like "orchestra playing" etc) BUT IT DOES NOT MENTION GHETTO BENCHES AT ALL. That is the problem. I ask to provide sources linking this particular incident (not persecution of ghetto benches activists in general) to ghetto benches, but time and time I get the ] of both sources.] (]) 22:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
=== ] vs. ] ===
:"Głównie Żydzi okrutnie mścili się za getto ławkowe". . This seems pretty clear to me that this refs "connects the dots" without any SYN/OR.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 23:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
::It connects nothing. This particular NKVD execution we are talkin about is not mentioned in this source. Your reply is another fine example of WP:SYN I was talking about. ] (]) 23:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


:::Actually, the Rabinowicz article, "The Battle of the Ghetto Benches," cited in the article numerous times has it's own conclusions on he aftermath:<blockquote>''"With the measure wherewith a man measures, shall he be measured", say the rabbis.47 Those who resort to violence become victims of violence. A wave of anti-German feelings swept through Poland six months before the outbreak of World War II, following the attacks on Jewish students by Danzig Nazis who tried to force Polish students to occupy "ghetto benches" at the Polytechnic.48 The writing on the wall was not read. Poland was weighed in the scales and found wanting.46''</blockquote>] <sup>'']''</sup> 00:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I guess I just have to accept that Wiki classifications of AS by country are forbidden.
*As a result Antisemitism has only One article that covers all countries.
*But this article is about Antisemitism (in the Modern Polish Republic). So we must make reference to the Main Antisemitism article. --] 11:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


(Unindent) This is problematic largely because of language. I don't know Polish, and am having a bit of trouble. A long time ago when the non-English source policy was being developed, I argued vehemently for liberality and AGF using other languages. So it is only justice that it comes to bite me on the ass! :-). So bear with my errors. I found it not too easy to understand exactly what is at issue, exactly who says what, and I think there are accidental errors of footnoting on this talk page, where people ascibed material in one source to another! I am entirely confident that no one here would mistranslate. So I recommend that people at least very clearly label the sources at issue by name, and then say what the source says in English, and say what it is being used for in the article, and that we continue to all use the same identifying name. The Polish original can be helpful, and links would be good, but those are secondary. I've tried to write this so another non-Polish-speaker could find it helpful.
== Ghetto ławkowe and Ukrainians ==
I remember reading something that there were attempts to put Ukrainian students in such ghettos. Perhaps somebody can find a ref for that.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 18:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


The two sources are:
== Ghetto ławkowe (Polish: Ghetto ławkowe), which can be translated as bench ghetto, ==
* and
*


M0RD00R brings up a sensible point, that we should beware of synthesis of the two sources, call them ZP and PL for short.
Why are you forcing a translation of Polish "shit" into English where it does not exist - and your translation is broken English which is incomprehensible to an English speaker? --] 19:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
PL "mentions persecution of Ghetto benches activists (but does not mention this execution)" , although it mentions the killing of Jan Naborczyk (and is so long that google only translates half of it for me), while ZP mentions the NKVD executions of four university antisemitic activists, but does not have the phrase "ghetto benches."
::Ghetto benches might by not exact translation but the term is used in English literature . ] 19:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


The question of what this article is about comes up here too. See my last response in the section above. ''The important thing is that we decide once and for all, for the whole article. If we use one definition in one place and one in another, chaos, editwarring, accusations and bad feelings are inevitable.'' For example "during which communist Jewish activists recognized four pre-war Polish members of an anti-Semitic organization from their college" - which is in the article now and comes from ZP, could be acceptable if we use (c) above, in which case PL isn't really necessary, else probably not. On the other hand, if we use definition (a) it seems M0RD00R is right. We have to decide whether "ghetto benches" is necessary in a source, or only discrimination in universities, or antisemitism in universities. Hope this helps. Need to get some sleep! See you all tomorrow.] (]) 10:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
None of the English language translations provided here reflect the actual meaning of the Polish phrase “Getto ławkowe” because of our linguistic differences. “Ławka” (as in w “ławka w klasie, w auli”) is not just a “bench” (a long seat)” known in English. “Four types of furniture found to be in use in classrooms: sled desks, chair with arm tablet, table with chair and table with bench.” The most accurate English term is offered by The Jewish Journal of Sociology published by World Jewish Congress. That is the "ghetto desk", though NOT “a desk in the ghetto” of course, but rather a “ghetto desk in a classroom”. Btw, “ghetto bench” or a "Ghetto-bp" is a type of workout equipment used for ]. Don't be misled by an avalanche of inaccurate translations from Polish featured online. --] ] 22:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
::But don't forget that "The most accurate" is your POV. "Ghetto benches" beat "Ghetto desk" by landslide in academic and scientific papers. This term was also used by Encyclopedia Britannica so we should go with established English name. ] 17:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC) ::As a creator of this article I must say that it was never intended to be a summary of discriminatory policies in Polish educational system. It covers (or rather covered) one specific policy - system of segregation known as "Ghetto benches". Here we have good example how this article should look like and what topics it should cover . ] (]) 23:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
:::I've removed most of the apologetic nonsense. Unless a source '''explicitly''' ties the material to the '''ghetto benches''', it doesn't belong, per ], and it will be removed. ]<sup>]</sup> 04:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


==Young Poland League== == Source ==
What's the Polish title of this organization? Without it, its hard to verify its existence, as there are probably several translations of the original Polish name, and this doesn't seem to be very useful.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 19:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
::It's Związek Młodej Polski. ] 17:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Thanks, I've created an article on pl wiki now (]).--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 18:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


This source has been repeatedly used in the article. My question is who is the author of the article? Do Misplaced Pages policies authorize sources with no authors? ] (]) 04:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
==Ghetto ławkowe was the extension of the Russian Empire's numerus clausus policy==
:I am repeating the question again, unverified and unreliable sources are subject to deletion. ] is still valid. ] (]) 23:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Could someone elaborate on this one? Even if from my own experience here in Wiki I know how the scheme usually works, like for example in ] case "Jews were persecuted because they were communists" > they were persecuted by some outside force - evil barbarian neighbors, "Communists" (and "Communists were Jews") therefore > "Jews persecuted Jews" and no one (except the Jews themselves of cause) is to blame, but still I wonder how come 20 years after gaining the independence sovereign Polish state still was implementing Russian policy. ] 22:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Site is maintained by Adam Mickiewicz Institute, so reliability issue is not the concern. ] (]) 23:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
:Cultural contamination, perhaps. After 123 years of Russian rule, some Russian customs and policies were assimilated by the Poles. Unfortunately, anti-semitic policies of Russian Empire appear to be among those. Of course, the fact that such regrettable attitude was on the rise worldwide is another factor, too.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 22:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
:Who is the author of this article? Please answer, we do not want Misplaced Pages to be based on amateur historians, such as, say, Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski. Thank you in advance.] (]) 23:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
::Dear Piotrus,
:::::Since this thread started going off-topic, please, state what exact statements referenced by this source you are finding unreliable CITING relevant policies, you might think, it might be in breach with, and citing reliable sources denouncing claims made in Adam Mickiewicz Institute website, otherwise I'll consider this topic closed. Cheers.] (]) 23:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
:::While Poland was the Kingdom to which Jews fled in the Middle Ages from the West, from Germany, don't forgey that contemporary Jews were believed by Catholics to be guilty of killing Christ. So whatever influence there was from Russia, Jews were the victims of Catholic Polish antisemitism - independent of Orthodox Russia and the Ukraine. --] 11:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::The relevant policies - WP:RS and WP:V - require that unless you can prove who is behind this source, all references to it will be removed from our project.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 00:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
:What is the ]? How reliable is it, compared, to, let's say, ]? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 23:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
::Piotrus, I hold your skills of finding information on Google in high regard. I'm confident that you'll find the answer to the question "What is the ]?" by yourself in quick and easy manner. ] (]) 00:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Mordoor please be polite, ] is still valid and do not leave the debate closed before it has been settled. I am not questioning statements, I am questioning the whole source. We do not know who wrote it, and I am sticking to the topic as much as I can. Since you provided this source, please answer the question. ] (]) 01:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Let me cite the policy "Items that are signed are preferable to unsigned articles". It is preffered that article would be sign but is not a must. I'm still waiting for answer to my question '''"what exact statements referenced by this source you are finding unreliable CITING relevant policies, you might think, it might be in breach with, and citing reliable sources denouncing claims made in Adam Mickiewicz Institute website'''] (]) 09:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
:What policy you are citing? Per ] you have to prove that ] / ] is a reliable source; currently its reliability is dubious (as of any random webpage).--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 10:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Well I'm citing WP:RS policy. And since You, Piotrus, introduced Diapozytyw webstite to this article it would be very helpful if You put some effort into establishing of reliability of this source as well. Currently I'm a little bit busy in my real life, so a little help from You would be very appreciated. Thanks a lot in advance. P.S. Still waiting for answer to my question '''"what exact statements referenced by this source you are finding unreliable CITING relevant policies, you might think, it might be in breach with, and citing reliable sources denouncing claims made in Adam Mickiewicz Institute website'''. ] (]) 10:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
:So far we have not seen evidence of reliability of this source per ], and ] policies. It is up to the provider to present '''referenced evidence''' of the reliability of this source. Please present evidence that this article is reliable. Otherwise the information will be deleted. Thank you. ] (]) 19:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
::I'm confident Piotrus will provide evidence of reliability of website that he introduced to this article. Just give him enough time , please. In meantime Tymek, would you care to answer the question I'm asking for the fourth time: '''"what exact statements referenced by this source you are finding unreliable CITING relevant policies, you might think, it might be in breach with, and citing reliable sources denouncing claims made in Adam Mickiewicz Institute website'''. Cheers. ] (]) 19:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
:::I am repeating myself again. I find this whole source unreliable, unless of course I see referenced evidence that states otherwise. I do not mean Adam Mickiewicz institute, this is not webpage of this institution. I mean this whole text. ] (]) 19:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
::::Your point is clear to me. Now let's wait for Piotrus. I'm confident he will provide evidence that Diapozytyw is a reliable source. There is no rush, I think we can wait as long as it takes him. In this case, personally I do not think it would take him long, because this is pretty clear case. Let's wait OK?. ] (]) 19:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
:Glad we understand each other. If there is no evidence, the information together with the source will be deleted. ] (]) 19:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
::I have great confidence in Piotrus, so I don't think we'll need delete anything. ] (]) 19:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


== Fringe anti-Semitic original research has no place in this or anyu article ==
== Segregation ==


What on earth does the statement <blockquote>Afer Central Powers lost First World War, and the idea promoted by Jewish politician Max Bodenheimer of establishing of German dominated state on Polish inhabited territories where Jews would play decisive factor lost the chance to succed] and is offensive POV pushing of the worst kind. Please explain what relevance this has to this article. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 04:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I think I need to remind - if not inform - our non-] editors that this seating practice falls under the well-known phenomena of ] or ] ]. --] 12:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
:Strangely enough, I was going to ask the same question about this anti-Polish fringe original research. ''Polish independence following World War I was accompanied by a wave of pogroms and discrimination against Jews''. What does it have to do with the article? This is anti-Polish offensive POV pushing,which clearly shows that some editors are not free from hatred. ] (]) 04:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
::Racial nature of this discrimination should be obvious, but somehow it isn't for some. Apparently there are some users protesting the usage of term racial segregation in this case. It would be interesting to see their arguments. ] 12:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
::BTW Max Bodenheimer was one of the main figures in German Zionism, not ''arbitrarily chosen, largely unknown Jewish figure''. ] (]) 04:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
:::So you admit you are putting it in to prove a ]. But, ''Polish independence following World War I was accompanied by a wave of pogroms and discrimination against Jews'' is a well sourced fact relevant to an article about a sad episode in the extremely well documented history of Polish persecution of Jews, while this nonsense about Bodenheimer appears nowhere in any one of the narratives concerning Polish Jewish relations in general, or the ghetto benches in particlar. Again, it just a sad and offensive attempt by a coteries of biased editors who insist of defiling articles on Misplaced Pages by whitewashing the documented record of Polish antisemitism. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 05:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
::::I am not admitting anything and I do not want to prove any point. It is rather you who has been going out of your way to prove your offensive anti-Polish stance. Bodenheimer and his extremely well documented concept is relevant to the article, as it shows Jewish stance against Poland. Please do not call facts ''nonsense'', do not change history according to your dislikes and prejudices. ] (]) 14:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::Bodenheimer is only a small piece of a puzzle much to large for this article. As long as the unfair simplification discussed ] is gone, let's not complicate the issue by adding such material. I do think this should be discussed in the ] and other articles, of course.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 16:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


==Only in Poland and only against the Jews?==
== Background ==
Didn't similar discrimination of students occur elsewhere? Ex. against Jews in Germany, or blacks in US? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 22:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


:See ], ], and ] for starters. In general, education in the United States was segregated; Blacks and whites had ] schools, as opposed to separate seating within the same school. — ]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;'''·''' ]) 22:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
This needs spliting into two parts - beginning with pre-independent, or Poland within the Russian Empire. --] 12:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
::Perhaps ] -- the first link in the article -- should indeed be to ]? --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 22:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
:I don't think such big background is needed. What about improving ] instead?--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


::The racial segregation article are broader in scope than just education. I wonder if there was a similar discrimination in education elsewhere? In other words, should this article be globalized, or is it correctly describing the phenomena that existed ''only'' in Poland? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 23:42, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
==Lead again==
:::Well, they at least got to go to the same schools in Poland. I can't think offhand of any examples of segregation that allowed for receiving the same education; in the US, of course, the black schools were almost always inferior and underfunded. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 00:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


::::The ghetto benches existed just in Poland, just as ] existed just in South Africa, and the ] just in Germany, and ] just in America, etc. So yes, this is obviously a facet of a broad phenomena throughout history, but the Ghetto Benches are distinct enough within that to merit its own article. ] <sup>'']''</sup> 00:54, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I am modifying this:
:''The system was not terminated by Polish legislative enactment; but rather, by the Nazi invasion which eliminated Jewish attendance at universities with the systematic destruction of Poland's Jewish community.''
The only relevant lead-worthy part here is that the system was not terminated by Polish authorities but rather collapsed along with Poland and its education. Nazi destruction of Poland's, or any other, Jewish community is not the subject of this article. We don't and should not throw all issues, no matter how important overall, to every Misplaced Pages article. This article is about a narrow issue: discrimination of Jews through segregation in Polish education. While referring to an overall anti-Semitism of the interwar Poland may be warranted, this has nothing to do with Nazi policies and, obviously, cannot be compared to the latter. Let's keep the articles focused. ] ''is'' a notable topic but if one wants to study present it in detail, this should be done in a dedicated article rather than in the article about a narrow aspect of it.


:::::And ] only in Israel. ] (]) 22:16, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
As for the international reaction, until we have a ref that it was indeed widespread, let's just mention that there was a reaction since this is confirmed by sources. --] 00:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


Piotrus you are guessing it right. The quota criteria for Jewish students existed in United States as well. See ] under United States and http://en.wikipedia.org/Numerus_clausus#Numerus_clausus_in_the_United_States--] (]) 19:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
::You've done a good job of copyediting in accordance with the above. And your statement of principle is correct. However, there are still style/grammar errors to be corrected. But I appreciate your restoration of balance between the two extremes.


== RfC ==
::Furthermore, since this is one aspect of ] ], and we are not allowed to have an article by country, to wit, ], I trhink we need to place it in a proper context - how does this phenomena fit the rest of Antisemitism then, there, before, and/or after. Best, --] 01:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


{{bulb}}An RfC: ] has been posted at the ]. Your participation is welcomed. &ndash; ] 16:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
:::Who says we are not allowed to have a narrower article about national antisemitism? Not at all! We can have such articles. But such articles should be started very carefully and be well-motivated. To often such articles are started by the user with the sole purpose to grind one's ax and make a point about their pet subject. If the article is started in such way, it is almost always destined to become a miserable failure. The subject of Polish antisemitism has received enough scholarly attention and the well-intentioned user armed with sources, patience and honest interest to write good articles rather than "prove that Poles are Antisemites" has a good chance to put such article on a right track. Unfortunately, the controversial subjects too often attract the users who don't write good articles. And such topics attract the most disruptive users from opposite POVs and articles degenerate into an unrepairable shape. Then they may get deleted. That's why there are so few good articles on the controversial subjects yet. But there are some and there may be one more. --] 01:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
==Please follow Misplaced Pages's guidelines on archiving==


Misplaced Pages provides some reasonably clear
:::: "Thereabouts there were no longer any Polish Jewish students sitting on any benches - they had all been deported to ny the occupying ] to ] and ]." This is not a direct response to your remark above. However, after careful re-examination, that sentence is appropriate as an accounting of how Ghetto benches became ''un-necessary''. ''There were no longer any Jews left to sit on them. You may, if you wish, try to find a more "intellectual" way of putting it. I, for the moment, cannot think of any. However, your previous deletion of it was ''arbitrary, capricious, and unreasonable''. You need to try again. The question is: How or Why did Ghetto benches disappear? The answer is that ''those who sit on them had been exterminated.'' You may not find that appetising to your need for a cold, dry, reading. Well, you can try and find a way of doing that. But you cannot do it by ''hiding the truth under your intellectual rug.'' So I'm sending you back to the drawing board, as I've restored the fact. --] 02:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
]. One of the sections within the guidelines concerns: ]. It says: "It is recommended to archive or refactor a page either when it exceeds 75 KB, or has more than 10 main sections". At the point of this edit the page contained 24.2 KB ] (]) 12:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
Ludvikus, please tone down your attitude a little. To the topic now. Ghetto benches were the feature of the Polish educational system in end-1930s. With the collapse of Poland, the Polish educational system seized to exist. There were no Polish universities, there were no benches in Polish universities, including the benches for Jews. In the Soviet part the Universities were soon reopened as the Soviet institutions. As Internationalism was an official Soviet ideology, there was hardly any anti-Jewish policies in the pre-war USSR. Actually, the Soviet takeover opened the doors into the Universities for non-Poles (Ukrainians, Belarusians and Jews) much wider than they were in the nationalist interwar Poland. Soviets introduced had their own antisemitic policies, including in education, but at a much later time and this is not the subject of this article. The main thing though, is that Ghetto benches was a a segregation within the ''Polish educational system'' that ended with the end of that system. There was no Polish education in partitioned Poland. The horrible future that awaited the Jews in the Germany-controlled Poland in the hands of the Nazis and their collaborators is undisputable. But this is not the subject of the article about the the segregation in the Polish education.


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I agree that the issues you keep reinserting deserve to be covered in Misplaced Pages. But they are off-topic in ''this'' article. --] 03:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:Oh yes Irpen, certainly internationalism was an official Soviet ideology. They closed colleges for Poles and opened for Ukrainians. This was very international indeed. BTW - I have no idea what is worse - discrimination based on ethnicity (Nazi Germany) or based on social status (Soviet Union). And as for Polish Antisemitism - it certainly attracts those users who have little knowledge on Polish history, but nevertheless seek for any chance to criticize Poland. ] 04:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


I have just modified 3 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
== Disappearance of Jewish students ==
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070311220308/http://www.diapozytyw.pl/pl/site/slownik_terminow/getto_lawkowe/ to http://www.diapozytyw.pl/pl/site/slownik_terminow/getto_lawkowe/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20020918204723/http://www.binghamton.edu/history/resources/bjoh/PolesAndJews.htm to http://www.binghamton.edu/history/resources/bjoh/PolesAndJews.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.lwow.com.pl/politechnika/politechnika2.html


When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
I cannot understand the persistent concealment (by editing or reversion) in an article about Segregation of the fact that that segregation ended because there were no longer any Jews left to segregate. What is with you guys? Where is your logic? The Question is simple, really. How did Ghetto benches disappear? They disappeared not because the Polish authorities decided (like the Americans in the 1960s) "that separate is not equal" (]). But because there was no longer any need for them - since the ] had eliminated the Jews. --] 05:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:Ludvikus, the benches for Jewish students in Polish universities disappeared along with the benches for the Polish students in Polish universities along with the entire system of Polish universities. That Jews were killed afterwards by Nazis and their Polish collaborators has nothing to do with Ghetto benches. --] 05:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::And with the big Holocaust template to the right it's certainly not ''hidden'' from the article.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 06:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Holocaust template does not belong here and it is not in the article. The Antisemitism template belongs here all right. --] 06:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:::You can put it any way you wish. But you cannot pretend that its irrelevant. Your latest claim is that the whole Polish educational system was shut down. Well then say that: Jewish university students at Polish universities were no longer forced to sit on benches reserved for Jews only because the Polish educational system had been shut down by the Nazis. --] 06:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::::You guys seem desperately wanting to find a way not to state exactly how these Ghetto benches disappeared from Poland - that they were in fact only distroyed by the Nazis - why leave out this ironic fact? --] 06:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::::The obvious fact you guys seem to want to censor is that Poland did not find these benches unjust, or illegal; that Poland never had a chance to continue this practise - because the German Nazis found a better, final solution. --] 06:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that the fact that Poland did not find this practice unjust and worthy to be banned ''is'' important and needs to be said. This, however, has nothing to do with Nazis or the final solution. Nazi Holocaust and Polish antisemitism are different issues and needn't be mixed. Overall, I strongly suggest that you calm down. --] 06:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
:Dear Calm ]:
*We can only speculate what Poland would have done, or not done - and speculation is not for Encyclopediasts to do.
*Why you think I need to ''calm down'', I do not understand. I do not insult, or personally attack, any other Wikipedian.
*Nevertheless, absurd positions can, and should be, attacked not by any means necessary - if permitted.
*Furthermore, you know, I'm sure, that the World is full of ]s; how you expect one to be calm in that context is beyond me; and I think it needs to be said to you in this context that ''six million Jews'' went ''calmly'', most of them Jewish and Polish, to their death; what you're discussing here is one aspect of that same Antisemitism.
*Here in the ] in the 1950's and 1960's the '']s'' also could not get a seat on the bus where a ''white'' person sat. It was the refusal of ] to give up her seat in the back of the bus which began the ]. And, by the way, those who ''calmly'' violated the Segregation restrictions were taken out and ]. So how you expect ''calmness'', or how you can think that what we're discussing here has nothing to do with the ] is incredible, but at the same time, understandable, when one recognizes that one lives in a world where there are so-called ''scholars'' who say that the ] never happened.
:But Peace to you personally, fello Wikipedian '''Irpen'''. --] 13:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::Dear Ludvikus - ghetto benches were shameful, but please do not mix them with Nazi Holocaust as these two topics are totally different. Do not compare Poland in 1939 to America in 1960, during those 21 years everything changed. In 1939 segregation of various kinds was commonplace almost everywhere. Irpen is right, Holocaust template has nothing to do with this article, or perhaps you want to add this template to anti-Jewish riots in Detroit in 1943? ] 15:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:::I have nothing to do with that template. We call that a ]. All I'm asking is to make it clear how ] went out of existence. That's all I want. My comparison to the 1960's is my original research, here, on the talk page. On the regular page I just want the pure fact: that the Poles, through their government, never eliminated such segrigation through their ] process: the did not pass any kind of law making such benches illegal. That is a historical fact. Now I also giving the Poles some kind of excuse: that the Nazis took over. What happened when the Soviets came into power - that I leave to other, hopefully knowledgable editors on the subject. Maybe this will help you understand my position better. The late Polish Pope (], ]) was I Great and Lovable Polish gentleman! --] 16:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 13:56, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
The fact that the benches disappeared because the Nazis closed down Polish school system is obvious. Polish government didn't have the chance to ban the segregation; whether and when it would have done so w/out WWII it's an open question, but the fact is that the segregation '''was not reintroduced''' after WWII.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

*Let me tell you all how law generally works. After countries overcome their ], their laws are automatically restored. So it's not enough for you to tell me that ''segregation was not reintroduced'' - the question is, was it ever ''abolished? Perhaps it was never re-introduced precisely because the Nazis had killed the Polish Jews off. Since this is an article on the racist practice of segregation, it is our responsibility to tell our readers how that practice ended. From what you are telling me now, it is perfectly legal for any Polish university to set up separate seating tomorrow.
*Do not ] the situation by saying this Polish antisemitic practice was not re-introduced. The more accurate way of stating it right now is that ''it was never formally abolished'' - unless you know otherwise! --] 17:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:Ludvikus, the after-1945 situation in Poland was totally different from the pre-1939. The pre-war law system was not restored, as Poland was ruled by the Communist puppet government which rejected the interwar Poland. As for formal abolition of the ghetto benches - I have no idea how it was solved after 1945. But as neither of us knows how the Communist government handled this case, I think we should skip this subject until sources are found. So, if you are not sure, please refrain from stating that ''it was never formally abolished'' unless you check the existing Polish law. ] 18:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:It was also never formally ''established''. Universities had autonomy and Polish pre-war government washed their hands of the issue. The autonomy under Communists was much smaller, practically non-existent during Communist period, so the government obviously did not wish for the ghetto benches to be recreated.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 18:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::Greatings, and Welcome, ]. Please do not confuse what I say here on the Talk page, with what I might write on the Article page. I agree with what you say about references. What I wish is precisely that - sourced accounting as to what happened to students' seating rights during the Nazi, Communist, and post-Communist eras, right up to the present day.
::In addition, the article should make reference to other practices of this kind of Racism. Were ''Ghetto benches'' the only forms of anti-Jewish regulations? Were there, by the way, any ''German benches'', or ''Prussian benches'', or ''Austrian benches'', or ''Russian benches'', or ''Ukrainian benches''? After all, Poland had no reason to love these other nationalities. It seems, however, that only Jews received such special seating accommodations. Is that not true? --] 19:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Thank you for greetings. There were not any ghetto benches for any other nationalities, even though the system for Ukrainians was considered in Lwow in early 1930s. During the Nazi era, there was no education in Poland, not counting ''Nur fur Deutsche''. ] 19:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Not quite. As I recall in one university Ukrainian benches were introduced. It had Polish, Jewish, and "the rest" (designated mainly for Ukrainians) sections. But if memory serves me right it was the only case. ] 19:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::*In defense of my Polish brothers and sisters, let me just say that Poland needs feel not much more shame, if any, than the great United States of America. At least Jews had seats in Polish universities. In the USA a Jew could not even get into ] or ] - the two greatest American universities - before WWII; and Quota systems existed here (USA) too. --] 19:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::*For example, the ] article says:
One American who fell victim to the Jewish quota was late physicist and Nobel laureate ],
who was turned away from ] in the 1930s
and went to ] instead.
:::::--] 19:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::*And a European example:
In Hungary, for example, 5,000 Jewish youngsters (including ])
left the country after the introduction of ''Numerus Clausus''.
:::::--] 19:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

== Lwow Technical College 1939-1941 ==
Zbyslaw Poplawski in his book “Dzieje Politechniki Lwowskiej 1844-1945”, Wroclaw 1992. (“History of the Lwow Technical University”, Wroclaw 1992) writes about incidents that took place at the school in the Soviet years (1939-1941). He writes that in November of 1939 there was a meeting at the school, during which Communist Jewish activists recognized pre-war Polish anti-Semites from college. They pointed these persons to NKVD officers, all four were taken out, beaten and then shot. Their names were: Henryk Rozakolski and Jan Plonczak from the student Bratniak organization, Ludwik Placzek and Jozef Obrocki. The meeting was terminated, shocked people left the hall walking past their killed collegaues.
Poplawski also writes that Jews were systematically taking revenge for the ghetto bench system. Harassed were professor Eberman from the combustion engines department, and engineers Jerzy Wegierski and Zbigniew Budzianowski. In 1940 a lecturer of sculpture, Jan Nalborczyk was killed for pre-war excesses.

To avoid questions - Zbyslaw Poplawski PhD died in Krakow on August 1, 2007, he was 95. He was a graduate of the Lwow Technical College, also a member of the Polish Academy of Sciences

more information about the Lwow Technical:
http://www.lwow.com.pl/politechnika/politechnika2.html#5

IMHO this information could be useful. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I forgot to sign myself, sorry ] 19:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
----
Important observation as to what happened. I personally regret that Revolutions are often the means of terminating injustice. When a system of law and order breaks down, as in a revolution, what is Justice to one, is Revenge to another. Your observations can be applied to the French Revolution as well. Did the French people take their Revenge on the Aristocracy during the ]? At any rate, you are reporting important historical facts that should be included. It shows at least some sort of retribution against the perpetrators of the ''bench system''. In the USA racist Governor ] was shot and crippled, and confined to a wheel chair. Eventually he recanted, as did ] for his racist activities. Anyway, these facts (you state) are clearly relevant to the Encyclopedia. So you should put them in. Best, --] 19:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

== Few or many ==

Instead of avoiding POV words such as few or many some users tend to push their POV at all costs.
Words like this have no place in the lead, but if you insist on putting "many", referenced "few" also should be present. Philosophical question - if so "many" Poles protested Racial segregation, why then ghetto benches were implemented? Maybe because "many many more" Poles there quite happy about them. ] 19:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::Pure speculation, quite unacceptable by our Wiki standards. Please provide source for the "many, many." --] ] 19:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:::By our wiki standards words like "many" and "not many" are unacceptable (especially in the lead) but for some reason you prefer to insert them by all means possible there it suits you. ] 19:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:"many many more" Poles there quite happy about them". This is more fun than a barrel of monkeys. How about this - many many Jews were quite happy about Soviet persecution of Poles. We should refrain from such stupid comments, don't you think so? ] 19:50, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::In that regard,<s> Tymek</s>, I think you are wrong. We should not use such words ourselves. We can quote any kind of source for that. But it most often is a POV expresion. Don't you agree that just one murderer is too many? So "one" means "many." Or do you think that only a Jew is capable of such logic? --] 19:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::Sorry Tymek, if/since it's not your position. --] 19:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Would you believe that, Poeticbent? Phrase "many Poles disliked the Jews" can be referenced, and this book is by Oxford University Press so ] written all over it, in big letters . Does this mean that this phrase can be quoted here or in any other article's lead, according to you. ] 20:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
: "many Poles disliked the Jews" is a slightly different expression from "many Poles were happy about (ghetto benches)". Anyway this is a unique phenomenon. Poland was home to the largest number of Jews, in Poland they found refuge and yet relationships between both nations were far from ideal and both sides were guily ] 20:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::Here we go with "both sides were guilty" tune. But not the both sides imposed acts of racial segregation on each other. Hello! There was one side that imposed segregation, and there was another side upon whom segregation was imposed. ] 20:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Hello! My comment was general, about whole history of Jewish community in Poland, not about the ghetto benches. ] 20:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Oh excuse me. If we talk about whole Jewish history in Poland, pardon me, but still i fail to see "both guilty sides" for example in blood libel (superstition still alive in Poland in the middle of XX century, may I remind you) pogroms. ] 20:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
-----
Doesn't anyone need to go to the bathroom? Anyway, before you do, and I have to go shopping, here in Manhattan, to buy many, many, things. Or mabe it's few things? Anyway, before I go, who is the un-named editor referenced above who is so loose with "few", or "many" as observed above? I'll be away - but I shall return to this lively discussion. --] 20:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:Oh! As I go out the door I see the answer .... --] 20:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::I locked the door. But then I returned. I am absolutely ''shocked'', ] that you use such a subjective word as "many"! Have you no intellectual shame/ Have you not understood one word of our discussion here? Tell me, are there many editors like you at Misplaced Pages who use "many" as you do? Let me say it again, just One like you is too Many. Do you understand ''that'' usage?
::Now I really have to go, and to the bathroom too - what '''Poetichent''' just did makes me want to ''throw up!'' --] 20:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 19:29, 14 February 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ghetto benches article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1
This article is rated Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconJewish history Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconPoland Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconDiscrimination Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
A fact from Ghetto benches appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 10 October 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:
  • Did you know... that segregated seating known as ghetto ławkowe ("ghetto desks" or "ghetto benches") were introduced in Polish universities in the late 1930s, primarily for Jewish students?
A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2007/October.
Misplaced Pages
Tip: Anchors are case-sensitive in most browsers.

This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.

  • ]
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. | Reporting errors

On distinction between " well referenced and relevant info" and WP:SYN

Apparenly we have disagreement what is "well referenced and relevant info" and what is WP:SYN

Let's look deeper in to it.

We have this text now:

In the third week of October 1939 there was a liquidation meeting with NKVD directed by lieutenant-colonel Jusimow, during which communist Jewish activists recognized pre-war Polish members of an anti-Semitic organization from their college and pointed them out to NKVD officers. All four were taken out, beaten and shot in the hallway while the NKVD orchestra was performing inside. Their names were: Henryk Różakolski, Jan Płończak (from the student Bratniak organization), Ludwik Płaczek, and Józef Obrocki. The meeting was terminated, shocked people left the hall walking past their murdered colleagues.

We have sources that this incident happened. Fine, no one is denying it. What we do not have is source linking this incident with the topic of this article, ghetto benches that is. Source number 26 does not even mention ghetto benches, link 27 is a dead link, which previously referenced that ghetto benches activists were persecuted under Soviets, but what is important, it does not talk about this particular incident. So we have perfect example of WP:SYNTHESIS here. Regards. M0RD00R (talk) 19:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree; note that previous attempts to remove this OR synth have been met with edit warring. Boodlesthecat 19:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
#For the record Poeticbent clearly noted that the references do note relation to ghetto benches.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Can we have exact quote which links NKVD incident with ghetto benches, because I'm having trouble to find it. Or is it too much to ask? As far as I know WP:VERIFY is still a policy, and WP:Poeticbent clearly noted isn't. Cheers. M0RD00R (talk) 21:20, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
This is a textbook example of WP:UNDUE. To call the "aftermath" of this episode the retaliation against some of the purported perpetrators of the antisemitic Polish actions against Jewish students, when the actual aftermath was the murder of 3 million Polish Jews which Polish antisemitic legislation helped lay a groundwork for is an amazing twisting of history. Boodlesthecat 21:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Polish legislation was made to create Holocaust ? I suggest backing that up, as it seems serious allegation.--Molobo (talk) 22:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Piotr asked me to provide my opinion. The first question is: what is the topic of the article? The "ghetto benches" considered narrowly, or "Discrimination against Jews in education in Poland" It seems to me to be the second. "Ghetto benches" being used like Jim Crow in US literature. As far as I can tell, from what Piotr points to in Poeticbent's statements above #For the record, the references do support connection of this incident as revenge for anti-semitic discrimination in education and even the "ghetto benches" in particular. One can argue that Polish discrimination in education was an effect of Polish antisemitic legislation, and perhaps that the latter was an indirect and minor cause of the murder of 3 million Polish Jews, but relating, without a source, educational discrimination to murdering 3 million seems to be OR. Whatever material one has, there is usually a good article to put it in; doing this, not putting it in the fashionable article du jour usually avoids pointless wrangling. Both the material about "Polish independence was ushered in with a wave of fierce anti-Semitism ..." and the more recent material about Max Bodenheimmer have serious OR / SYN problems in my opinion. The quote from Melzer, only found in the footnotes "In fact, ever since the attainment of independence, the universities in Poland had been strongholds of Endejca supporters and centers for anti-semitic agitation.” seems to be a non-OR, without major "synthesis" objections, replacement for some of this. Regards to all,John Z (talk) 22:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll try to explain my point again. There are two sources: one cited by Poeticbent (Chapter For the record of this talk page), that mentions persecution of Ghetto benches activists (but does not mention this execution). And there is another source about NKVD execution - it has all the fancy stuff, that is repeatedly inserted here by Piotrus and Poeticbent (like "orchestra playing" etc) BUT IT DOES NOT MENTION GHETTO BENCHES AT ALL. That is the problem. I ask to provide sources linking this particular incident (not persecution of ghetto benches activists in general) to ghetto benches, but time and time I get the WP:SYNTHESIS of both sources.M0RD00R (talk) 22:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

"Głównie Żydzi okrutnie mścili się za getto ławkowe". . This seems pretty clear to me that this refs "connects the dots" without any SYN/OR.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
It connects nothing. This particular NKVD execution we are talkin about is not mentioned in this source. Your reply is another fine example of WP:SYN I was talking about. M0RD00R (talk) 23:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the Rabinowicz article, "The Battle of the Ghetto Benches," cited in the article numerous times has it's own conclusions on he aftermath:

"With the measure wherewith a man measures, shall he be measured", say the rabbis.47 Those who resort to violence become victims of violence. A wave of anti-German feelings swept through Poland six months before the outbreak of World War II, following the attacks on Jewish students by Danzig Nazis who tried to force Polish students to occupy "ghetto benches" at the Polytechnic.48 The writing on the wall was not read. Poland was weighed in the scales and found wanting.46

Boodlesthecat 00:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

(Unindent) This is problematic largely because of language. I don't know Polish, and am having a bit of trouble. A long time ago when the non-English source policy was being developed, I argued vehemently for liberality and AGF using other languages. So it is only justice that it comes to bite me on the ass! :-). So bear with my errors. I found it not too easy to understand exactly what is at issue, exactly who says what, and I think there are accidental errors of footnoting on this talk page, where people ascibed material in one source to another! I am entirely confident that no one here would mistranslate. So I recommend that people at least very clearly label the sources at issue by name, and then say what the source says in English, and say what it is being used for in the article, and that we continue to all use the same identifying name. The Polish original can be helpful, and links would be good, but those are secondary. I've tried to write this so another non-Polish-speaker could find it helpful.

The two sources are:

M0RD00R brings up a sensible point, that we should beware of synthesis of the two sources, call them ZP and PL for short. PL "mentions persecution of Ghetto benches activists (but does not mention this execution)" , although it mentions the killing of Jan Naborczyk (and is so long that google only translates half of it for me), while ZP mentions the NKVD executions of four university antisemitic activists, but does not have the phrase "ghetto benches."

The question of what this article is about comes up here too. See my last response in the section above. The important thing is that we decide once and for all, for the whole article. If we use one definition in one place and one in another, chaos, editwarring, accusations and bad feelings are inevitable. For example "during which communist Jewish activists recognized four pre-war Polish members of an anti-Semitic organization from their college" - which is in the article now and comes from ZP, could be acceptable if we use (c) above, in which case PL isn't really necessary, else probably not. On the other hand, if we use definition (a) it seems M0RD00R is right. We have to decide whether "ghetto benches" is necessary in a source, or only discrimination in universities, or antisemitism in universities. Hope this helps. Need to get some sleep! See you all tomorrow.John Z (talk) 10:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

As a creator of this article I must say that it was never intended to be a summary of discriminatory policies in Polish educational system. It covers (or rather covered) one specific policy - system of segregation known as "Ghetto benches". Here we have good example how this article should look like and what topics it should cover . M0RD00R (talk) 23:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I've removed most of the apologetic nonsense. Unless a source explicitly ties the material to the ghetto benches, it doesn't belong, per WP:NOR, and it will be removed. Jayjg 04:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Source

This source has been repeatedly used in the article. My question is who is the author of the article? Do Misplaced Pages policies authorize sources with no authors? Tymek (talk) 04:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I am repeating the question again, unverified and unreliable sources are subject to deletion. WP:RS is still valid. Tymek (talk) 23:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Site is maintained by Adam Mickiewicz Institute, so reliability issue is not the concern. M0RD00R (talk) 23:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Who is the author of this article? Please answer, we do not want Misplaced Pages to be based on amateur historians, such as, say, Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski. Thank you in advance.Tymek (talk) 23:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Since this thread started going off-topic, please, state what exact statements referenced by this source you are finding unreliable CITING relevant policies, you might think, it might be in breach with, and citing reliable sources denouncing claims made in Adam Mickiewicz Institute website, otherwise I'll consider this topic closed. Cheers.M0RD00R (talk) 23:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
The relevant policies - WP:RS and WP:V - require that unless you can prove who is behind this source, all references to it will be removed from our project.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 00:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
What is the Adam Mickiewicz Institute? How reliable is it, compared, to, let's say, Piast Institute? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Piotrus, I hold your skills of finding information on Google in high regard. I'm confident that you'll find the answer to the question "What is the Adam Mickiewicz Institute?" by yourself in quick and easy manner. M0RD00R (talk) 00:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Mordoor please be polite, WP:CIV is still valid and do not leave the debate closed before it has been settled. I am not questioning statements, I am questioning the whole source. We do not know who wrote it, and I am sticking to the topic as much as I can. Since you provided this source, please answer the question. Tymek (talk) 01:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Let me cite the policy "Items that are signed are preferable to unsigned articles". It is preffered that article would be sign but is not a must. I'm still waiting for answer to my question "what exact statements referenced by this source you are finding unreliable CITING relevant policies, you might think, it might be in breach with, and citing reliable sources denouncing claims made in Adam Mickiewicz Institute websiteM0RD00R (talk) 09:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

What policy you are citing? Per WP:RS you have to prove that Adam Mickiewicz Institute / Diapozytyw is a reliable source; currently its reliability is dubious (as of any random webpage).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 10:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Well I'm citing WP:RS policy. And since You, Piotrus, introduced Diapozytyw webstite to this article it would be very helpful if You put some effort into establishing of reliability of this source as well. Currently I'm a little bit busy in my real life, so a little help from You would be very appreciated. Thanks a lot in advance. P.S. Still waiting for answer to my question "what exact statements referenced by this source you are finding unreliable CITING relevant policies, you might think, it might be in breach with, and citing reliable sources denouncing claims made in Adam Mickiewicz Institute website. M0RD00R (talk) 10:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

So far we have not seen evidence of reliability of this source per WP:RS, and WP:VERIFY policies. It is up to the provider to present referenced evidence of the reliability of this source. Please present evidence that this article is reliable. Otherwise the information will be deleted. Thank you. Tymek (talk) 19:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm confident Piotrus will provide evidence of reliability of website that he introduced to this article. Just give him enough time , please. In meantime Tymek, would you care to answer the question I'm asking for the fourth time: "what exact statements referenced by this source you are finding unreliable CITING relevant policies, you might think, it might be in breach with, and citing reliable sources denouncing claims made in Adam Mickiewicz Institute website. Cheers. M0RD00R (talk) 19:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I am repeating myself again. I find this whole source unreliable, unless of course I see referenced evidence that states otherwise. I do not mean Adam Mickiewicz institute, this is not webpage of this institution. I mean this whole text. Tymek (talk) 19:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Your point is clear to me. Now let's wait for Piotrus. I'm confident he will provide evidence that Diapozytyw is a reliable source. There is no rush, I think we can wait as long as it takes him. In this case, personally I do not think it would take him long, because this is pretty clear case. Let's wait OK?. M0RD00R (talk) 19:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Glad we understand each other. If there is no evidence, the information together with the source will be deleted. Tymek (talk) 19:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I have great confidence in Piotrus, so I don't think we'll need delete anything. M0RD00R (talk) 19:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Fringe anti-Semitic original research has no place in this or anyu article

What on earth does the statement

Afer Central Powers lost First World War, and the idea promoted by Jewish politician Max Bodenheimer of establishing of German dominated state on Polish inhabited territories where Jews would play decisive factor lost the chance to succed

Strangely enough, I was going to ask the same question about this anti-Polish fringe original research. Polish independence following World War I was accompanied by a wave of pogroms and discrimination against Jews. What does it have to do with the article? This is anti-Polish offensive POV pushing,which clearly shows that some editors are not free from hatred. Tymek (talk) 04:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
BTW Max Bodenheimer was one of the main figures in German Zionism, not arbitrarily chosen, largely unknown Jewish figure. Tymek (talk) 04:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
So you admit you are putting it in to prove a point. But, Polish independence following World War I was accompanied by a wave of pogroms and discrimination against Jews is a well sourced fact relevant to an article about a sad episode in the extremely well documented history of Polish persecution of Jews, while this nonsense about Bodenheimer appears nowhere in any one of the narratives concerning Polish Jewish relations in general, or the ghetto benches in particlar. Again, it just a sad and offensive attempt by a coteries of biased editors who insist of defiling articles on Misplaced Pages by whitewashing the documented record of Polish antisemitism. Boodlesthecat 05:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I am not admitting anything and I do not want to prove any point. It is rather you who has been going out of your way to prove your offensive anti-Polish stance. Bodenheimer and his extremely well documented concept is relevant to the article, as it shows Jewish stance against Poland. Please do not call facts nonsense, do not change history according to your dislikes and prejudices. Tymek (talk) 14:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Bodenheimer is only a small piece of a puzzle much to large for this article. As long as the unfair simplification discussed here is gone, let's not complicate the issue by adding such material. I do think this should be discussed in the history of Jews in Poland and other articles, of course.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Only in Poland and only against the Jews?

Didn't similar discrimination of students occur elsewhere? Ex. against Jews in Germany, or blacks in US? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

See Racial segregation, Racial policy of Nazi Germany, and Racial segregation in the United States for starters. In general, education in the United States was segregated; Blacks and whites had separate schools, as opposed to separate seating within the same school. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 22:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps segregation -- the first link in the article -- should indeed be to racial segregation? --jpgordon 22:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
The racial segregation article are broader in scope than just education. I wonder if there was a similar discrimination in education elsewhere? In other words, should this article be globalized, or is it correctly describing the phenomena that existed only in Poland? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:42, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, they at least got to go to the same schools in Poland. I can't think offhand of any examples of segregation that allowed for receiving the same education; in the US, of course, the black schools were almost always inferior and underfunded. --jpgordon 00:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
The ghetto benches existed just in Poland, just as apartheid existed just in South Africa, and the Nuremberg laws just in Germany, and Jim Crow just in America, etc. So yes, this is obviously a facet of a broad phenomena throughout history, but the Ghetto Benches are distinct enough within that to merit its own article. Boodlesthecat 00:54, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
And apartheid walls only in Israel. greg park avenue (talk) 22:16, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus you are guessing it right. The quota criteria for Jewish students existed in United States as well. See Jewish_quota under United States and http://en.wikipedia.org/Numerus_clausus#Numerus_clausus_in_the_United_States--Molobo (talk) 19:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

RfC

Light bulb iconBAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Please follow Misplaced Pages's guidelines on archiving

Misplaced Pages provides some reasonably clear Talk page guidelines. One of the sections within the guidelines concerns: When to condense pages. It says: "It is recommended to archive or refactor a page either when it exceeds 75 KB, or has more than 10 main sections". At the point of this edit the page contained 24.2 KB Gregkaye (talk) 12:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Ghetto benches. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:56, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Categories: