| Revision as of 03:37, 4 November 2003 editKricxjo (talk | contribs)568 edits Regardless of where the article is, it needs to discuss the polemics over the current name of the city.← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 16:35, 1 October 2024 edit undoMacaddct1984 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, IP block exemptions, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers21,627 edits →Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 September 2024: Edit request not done at this time. (Edit Request Tool) |
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Are you sure about the original name "Danapirstadir"? I searched for it on Google and came up with nothing. |
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{{American English}} |
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{{Article history |
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| action1date = 17:45, 21 August 2005 |
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| action1link = Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Kiev/archive1 |
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|action2date = 17:42, 23 May 2006 |
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According to the Ukrainian government, the official spelling of the city in English is "Kyiv". So, I propose moving the page to "Kyiv", and putting a redirect at "Kiev", the opposite of how it is now. "Kiev" is a romanisation of the name of the city in Russian, and as Ukrainian is the sole official language of Ukraine, keeping it like this is somewhat offensive. See how the ] - ] issue was resolved. - ] |
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* Okay, I've moved the page, as I proposed some months ago. There's a redirect. This makes the entry conform to other cities whose names changed after independence. ] 10:56, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC) |
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| action3link = Talk:Kiev#GA Review |
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| topic = Geography |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|vital=yes|1= |
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{{WikiProject Cities|capital=y}} |
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{{WikiProject Ukraine| importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Former countries}} |
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{{WikiProject Russia|importance=Low|hist=yes}} |
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{{Press|collapsed=yes |
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| subject=article| title=#KyivnotKiev:#kyivfourrome Misplaced Pages changes spelling of Ukrainian capital| org=]| url=https://www.unian.info/kyiv/kyivnotkiev-wikipedia-changes-spelling-of-ukrainian-capital-news-kyiv-11150921.html| date=2020-09-18| quote=The press service suggested that the moderators decided to "rename" the article because of the growing use of "Kyiv" in English-language sources.| accessdate=2020-09-19 |
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| subject2=article| author2=Daryna Antoniuk| title2=Kyiv not Kiev: Misplaced Pages changes spelling of Ukrainian capital| org2=]| url2=https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/kyiv-not-kiev-wikipedia-changes-spelling-of-ukrainian-capital.html?cn-reloaded=1&cn-reloaded=1| date2=2020-09-18| quote2=Misplaced Pages couldn’t change the mistake earlier because it just displayed the spelling that is most popular among prestigious international media outlets, the Ukrainian representative office of Misplaced Pages said.| accessdate2=2020-09-19 |
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| author3 = Stephen Harrison |
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| title3 = How the Russian Invasion of Ukraine Is Playing Out on English, Ukrainian, and Russian Misplaced Pages |
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| url3 = https://slate.com/technology/2022/03/wikipedia-russian-invasion-of-ukraine-edits-kyiv-kiev.html |
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| date3 = 1 March 2022 |
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| quote3 = But before covering the latest developments, it’s worth revisiting one of the most brutal edit wars in Misplaced Pages’s history, which also says something about the Ukrainian spirit. The issue was whether the web encyclopedia should spell Ukraine’s capital as “Kyiv” or “Kiev.” |
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| accessdate3 = 1 March 2022 |
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{{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=b}} |
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{{Talk:Kyiv/naming/old discussion list}} |
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::Well if I had seen your proposal I would have strenuously objected. There are 10 times the number of Google hits for the Kiev spelling as there are are for Kyiv and the US embassy in Kiev has its website at http://kiev.usembassy.gov/ . I'm moving the page back to the correct English spelling (which is a matter of usage, ''not'' decree). Furthermore I just did a spell check on this and "Kyiv" came up as incorrect which Kiev did not. --] 21:26, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC) |
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::: It doesn't matter how many web hits there are. Look at ]. That is the official name of the city, even though many people around the world still say "Bombay". Wikipedians decided to put the page at Mumbai and include a redirect at Bombay. The fairest solution is to put the page at the official name (according to the government of the country in which the city is located). As I said before, "Kiev" is from Russian, which is offensive to many Ukrainians because Russian is not an official language of Ukraine. I shall be moving this page back, so that it conforms with the Bombay - Mumbai decision, since the Misplaced Pages is better when it is coherent. It's not as if we lose anything, since ] will still be a redirect. ] 09:23, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC) |
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{{top 25 report|Feb 20 2022}} |
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{{Archives|title=Naming archives (])|root=Talk:Kyiv/naming|search=yes}} |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 January 2024 == |
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::: I should add that occasionally the Misplaced Pages does decree spelling, instead of letting usage decide. For this reason the spelling "Rumanian" was taken out of the article ], since it was perceived as archaic, though many people still use it. Because all documents issued by the Ukrainian government in English contain the spelling "Kyiv", guidebooks to Ukraine now use "Kyiv", scholarly works on the region in antiquity now tend to say "Kyiv Rus", it is entirely fair to believe "Kiev" unsatisfactory. And yeah, the US Embassy uses it, but they are criticized heavily for it (I lived in the city for a couple of years) and perceived as insensitive to the locals post-independence, as few members of the embassy staff speak Ukrainian, and will speak with visitors only in English or Russian. ] 09:32, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC) |
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{{edit extended-protected|Kyiv|answered=yes}} |
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:::OK. I didn't read the "offensive" part. "Kyiv" is therefore in conformance with ] due to that. But it was outrageous to remove ''every'' single reference to the spelling "Kiev" as was done with your first move. Presented with that version of the article an English speaker may not have known this page was about the Kiev they were taught about in school. --] |
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Replace 'also written as Kiev' with 'outdated place-name Kiev' in the title block: as it misleadingly enable a russian promoted writing to continue being used. If clarification is needed, i propose to add 'formerly' into the statement as to emphasize its outdated nature. ] (]) 23:51, 30 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{not done}} The reality is that sources use Kiev, it is not misleading. See ] for more.<span style="font-family:Courier;"><b> // ] :: ] </b></span> 00:23, 31 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::Replace 'also written as Kiev' with 'outdated place-name Kiev' in the title block: as it misleadingly enable a russian promoted writing to continue being used. ] (]) 02:02, 4 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::It's neither Russian nor Ukrainian. It is the longstanding ENGLISH name that readers will still encounter. --] (]) (]) 03:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::"Kyiv" spelling/pronunciation is the newspeak. It has not been used historically. ] (]) 04:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::Right where it says in brackets of the article “(also spelled Kiev)”, can that tiny bit (at least) be updated to “(also spelled '''as''' Kiev)”? 🙂 (It only makes better sense that way). ] (]) 20:22, 6 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== claimed 100k population - not one of the largest in the world == |
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:He's got a point. If we have the articles on Bombay & Calcutta at ] & ], we should have the one on Kiev at Kyiv. - ] 09:29, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC) |
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"Before Bogolyubsky's pillaging, Kyiv had had a reputation as one of the largest cities in the world, with a population exceeding 100,000 at the beginning of the 12th century" - |
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Well I don't think those should be there either. I've never heard of ] & ]. -- ] 10:32, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC) |
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this strikes my as wildly overblown, from looking at the ] list. 100,000 might have been large, for the region (although still considerably smaller than Constantinopole), but nowhere close to "one of the largest cities in the world", as that would have to compete with the likes of Baghdad and large cities in China. ] (]) 07:52, 23 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Spelling error in lead section - "ninenteenth" == |
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This is the English wiki. I'm moving it back to ]. ] 02:59, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC) |
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"Coming under Lithuania, then Poland and then Russia, the city would grow from a frontier market into an important center of Orthodox learning in the sixteenth century, and later of industry, commerce, and administration by the '''ninenteenth'''." ] (]) 23:48, 24 August 2024 (UTC) |
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I agree with RickK & Efghij. ] is the proper english name. For example, Germany is also listed under Germany and not Deutschland, Japan is Japan and not Nihon, Austria is not Oesterreich. Nobody knows ] & ]. ] 12:03, 4 Nov 2003 (JapanTime) |
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:{{ping|Forvana}} Fixed. Thanks. ] (]) 23:57, 24 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 September 2024 == |
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:I think Mumbai is alright...but maybe that's because I had a friend as a kid whose family was from Bombay, and they always called it Mumbai. I guess everyone else knows it as Bombay though... ] 03:09, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC) |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Kyiv|answered=yes}} |
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:Mumbai and Kolkata actually have currency in modern English language publications. Such is not the case however (as far as I know) with Kiev (or Mecca). - ] 03:11, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC) |
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Change demographics GDP title from |
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::: Not so. Travel guides use "Kyiv", some wire services use "Kyiv", scholarly works on the region use "Kyiv". The English-language newspapers in Kyiv (edited by expatriate English-soeakers) use "Kyiv". The new name is here to stay. In fact, I'd say it's even more common than "Kolkata". ] 03:18, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC) |
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::::That is as may be, it's still not the name by which the city is known to '''''English''''' speakers. ] 03:22, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)~ |
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] (]) 02:36, 26 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done for now:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> It's not clear why that's an improvement over the current formatting, especially in a narrow infobox. – ] <sup>(] | ])</sup> 16:35, 1 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::: English-language travel guides use "Kyiv", English-language histories of Ukraine use "Kyiv". Why can you not understand that? ] 03:23, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC) |
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I have no doubt that the Kyiv transliteration will be widely accepted in English someday. But it is ''not now''. Our function on Misplaced Pages is not to set trends, it is to report on trends that have already been set, and as of yet this one has not been set. What matters here is not Ukranian wire services or travel guides translated into English, what matters here is UK, US, Australian etc. wire services and, more important, published scholarly works in the English-speaking world. - ] 03:27, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC) |
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: What? Travel-guides using the form aren't translated into English. The Lonely Planet series, which uses the form, is written mostly by people from Britain or Australia. And works on Ukrainian history by *English-speaking* scholars, from America and Britain, use "Kyiv". This has nothing to do with what Ukrainians call their city (though I guess that should be respected if "Kiev" distresses them), but rather with what is used in educated circles in the English-speaking world. I've recommended to RickK that this be brought up on the mailing list, since otherwise it will be an endless series of moving the article to and fro. ] 03:31, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC) |
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::Jimbo Wales has requested that such discussions remain on the appropriate article Talk pages, not on the mailing list. ] 03:34, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC) |
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Note: On the online Merriam Webster ] the main entriy is Kiev. Variant(s) or Ukrainian Kyiv or Kyyiv. So i agree with Kiev. However, i have no problem at all with the redirect of Kyiv to Kiev.] 12:35, 4 Nov 2003 (JapanTime) |
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Regardless of where the article is, it needs to discuss the polemics over the current name of the city. ] 03:37, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC) |
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Replace 'also written as Kiev' with 'outdated place-name Kiev' in the title block: as it misleadingly enable a russian promoted writing to continue being used. If clarification is needed, i propose to add 'formerly' into the statement as to emphasize its outdated nature. 204.48.92.168 (talk) 23:51, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
"Before Bogolyubsky's pillaging, Kyiv had had a reputation as one of the largest cities in the world, with a population exceeding 100,000 at the beginning of the 12th century" -
this strikes my as wildly overblown, from looking at the 11th-12th century city sizes list. 100,000 might have been large, for the region (although still considerably smaller than Constantinopole), but nowhere close to "one of the largest cities in the world", as that would have to compete with the likes of Baghdad and large cities in China. 2001:9E8:A344:B700:5070:174:C4AA:ACF4 (talk) 07:52, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
"Coming under Lithuania, then Poland and then Russia, the city would grow from a frontier market into an important center of Orthodox learning in the sixteenth century, and later of industry, commerce, and administration by the ninenteenth." Forvana (talk) 23:48, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
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Not done The reality is that sources use Kiev, it is not misleading. See WP:KIEV for more. // Timothy :: talk 00:23, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
Not done for now: It's not clear why that's an improvement over the current formatting, especially in a narrow infobox. – macaddct1984 16:35, 1 October 2024 (UTC)