| Revision as of 04:50, 19 November 2007 edit208.65.188.149 (talk) →Natalie Erin planning a purge of "anti-Castroites"=← Previous edit |
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{{onlinesource|year=2006|section=2006|author=Pablo Bachelet|title=Cuba entry in Misplaced Pages stirs controversy|org=The Miami Herald|date=]|url=http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/may06/10e4.htm|small=yes}} |
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{{Press|year=2006|section=May 2006 |
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| title=Dueling edits dog Misplaced Pages's Cuba entry |
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| org=The Seattle Times <!--Author is Pablo Bachelet--> |
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| date=May 5, 2006 |
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==Less advised critics use their own non factual ideas of Cuban history and then claim Vandalism== |
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Again it is highly probably that I will be blocked, for inserting information that while true is not flattering to the Cuban government. Just received the following: |
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*{{{icon|] }}}Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Misplaced Pages{{{{{subst|}}}#if:Cuba|, as you did to ]}}. Your edits appear to constitute ] and have been ]. If you would like to experiment, please use the ]. {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{2|}}}|{{{2}}}|Thank you.}}<!-- Template:uw-vandalism2 --> ] 18:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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*''If this is a shared ], and you didn't make the edit, consider ] for yourself so you can avoid further irrelevant notices.'' |
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Apparently is not aware that even senior Stalinist Agent in Cuba Fabio Grobart said it was necessary to support Machado because if Machado fell conservative forces (he used less flattering terms). |
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citation for insertion |
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Massón Sena, Caridad 2004 (accessed 6-9-07) Dos visiones sobre el nacionalismo y las alianzas: Mella y Villena. Centro de Investigación y Desarrollo de la Cultura Cubana “Juan Marinello”. La Habana, Cuba. http://168.96.200.17/ar/libros/cuba/marin/nacion.rtf. “ Según explicara Fabio Grobart a posteriori: “ Esta miopía política se reflejó también en una errónea conclusión que los dirigentes del Partido sacaron, de la justa apreciación de que sustituir a Machado por un gobierno de la oposición burgués-terrateniente significaba dejar a Cuba en su estado de semicolonia y a las masas populares en la misma miseria y esclavitud y que únicamente un gobierno de trabajadores podía producir los cambios radicales que el país necesitaba /.../Dicha a conclusión fue profundamente falsa por ser mecánica, por no basarse en un análisis correcto del desarrollo dialéctico de la situación y, esencialmente, por no tener en cuenta que las masas revolucionarias, enardecidas por la victoria sobre Machado y orientadas en su acción por una justa política de su vanguardia marxista-leninista, sí podría asegurar los cambios profundos, es decir, la realización del programa agrario-antimperialista, por el cual abogaba y luchaba desde su fundación el Partido Comunista.(22)” Reference 22 is Fabio Grobart, 1985, p. 93, This author also refers in this regard to Leonel Soto, 1977, vol. II, p. 8. |
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Collaboration with dictators, who have few sincere allies offers advantages for infiltration of covert communists. CIA 1960 Communist influence in the Cuban government. “The objective of the Partido Socialista Popular (PSP-Cuban communist part…Its tactics, therefore are to conceal the membership, recruitment or reaffiliation of Party members who now occupy key positions in the government.” Following a Chinese model ”These secret Communist Party members are in close contact with known Communist Party members such as Blas Roca, Joaquin Ordoqui, Servero Aguirre, and Carlos Rafael Rodriguez, who establish public Communist Party policy and are in turn, in contact with the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU) and the international Communist apparatus. |
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end of this citation |
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It is common to attribute the fall of Machado to left wing forces this is simple not so, the ABC did far more to defeat Machado than any left wing group. Guiteras did a tiny action at La Gallinita (the place of the little chicken). Most of the action in Havana was done by the ABC which despite its reputation as being racist included a good number of black members. In the countryside Blas Hernandez was far more effective than Guiteras. El Jigue] 21:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Since I am sure that Neobros will again delete the important material that I inserted and will place it here for safe keeping please read it, And make up your own minds. El Jigue] 22:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Machado was a Cuban nationalist and his regime had considerable local support despite its violent suppression of critics. However, it was during this period that ] intrusion into Cuban affairs began with the arrival in Cuba of ]. During Machado's tenure, Cubans gained greater control over their own economy and major national development projects were undertaken. His hold on power was weakened, by the lower demand for sugar because of ], the attacks first by War of Independence Veterans, and later on by secret organizations principally the ABC |
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ref inserted: Dutcher, Rodney (NEA) 1933 Machado Fights Terrorists With Terror To Hold Iron-Handed Foes: of "ABC” Copy Gangster Methods to Rid Island of Despot Who Has Ruled Since-1924 Syracuse Herald Friday evening, April 28, 1933. Front Page “Terrorism has been met "with terrorism in this unique outbreak waged mostly by students and young Intellectuals who brand Machado as a tyrant. On one side is the "ABC," secret terrorist, organization that has copied the methods ol gangsters in the fine art of assassination. On the other side are Machado's strong-armed and equally, ruthless secret police. Murder has followed murder in a series of spectacular killings. The Law of Flight Typical were assinations of Dr. Clemente Vasquez Bella, president ol the Cuban Senate and political ally of Machedo, and Capt. Miguel Calvo former head of the secret police Both were slain on busy throughfares, in daylight, by men who dashed past in autos firing shot guns. Many members, or suspected members of the "ABC" have been slain by the secret police in equally ruthless manner. Often, those killings have been defended on the ground that the victims preferred death to capture, though the evidence. In many cases Is not convincing. One police official alone is accused of 40 official assassinations. Police have also defended killings on the ground that the ley de fuga (law of flight) recognized the right of an officer to shoot an escaping prisoner. But, according to witnesses, prisoners have been released told to flee and then shot down they ran. Bombing has been common. Incendiary fires have destroyed much property. Great numbers oi political prisoners have been jailed. President Machado. whose life has been threatened many times, is heavily guarded by soldiers and machine gun crews in his palace. He rides to and from his country estate in a bullet-proof auto, under escort of soldiers armed with rifles and machine guns. NEXT: Cuba economic distress and America's vast stake on the IslanNext story is Van Paassen Sees Foreign War as Hitler Final Gamble Holds Nazi Course of Terrorism Is Camouflage for Lack of Policy Job Finding Failure Unemployment and Misery Grow With Every Day of Delay By PIERRE VAN PAASSEN Roving European Correspondent of The Herald Paris, April 23 end of reference insertion |
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Then during a general strike in which the communist party took the side of Machado, the Senior elements of the Cuban army forced Machado into exile and installed ], son of Cuba's founding father, as President. In September, however, a second coup led by sergeants, most notably ], overthrew Céspedes leading to the formation of the first ] government. This government lasted just 100 days, but engineered radical liberal changes in Cuban society and a rejection of the ]. |
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Wow Neobros reverted in less than five minutes Ay vey! how some cling to their faith El Jigue] 22:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Goodbye all. Apparently it is a crime to report on the very existence of the ABC and the fact that the communists joined with Machado in an attempt to block the strike that overthrew that Dictator. Notice I inserted a verifiable reference and that was ignored. Well I suppose I will be now blocked for ever. Neobros is already working on that....El Jigue] 22:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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: I've missed this talk page going through my watch list, so I'm sorry for not replying sooner. I assure you, I have no agenda regarding Cuba on either side of the fence, nor am I any expert on the countries history; However, as I added on your last automated warning in your Talk Page, unreferenced, large additions without any credible external sources do not belong here, this is an encyclopedia, not a debating hall. Without reliable sources to back you up, your opinions are just that, conjecture. If you obtain reliable sources to use with your data, then I will gladly allow it to remain as a valid contribution to the article, and apologize for the vandalism accusations. To clarify, I'm only interested in facts, not agenda. ] 22:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Neobros: |
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I am writing on this topic. Just view the citations (some from Castro government sources) on the cooperation of the communists with Machado. El Jigue |
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Massón Sena, Caridad 2004 (accessed 6-9-07) Dos visiones sobre el nacionalismo y las alianzas: Mella y Villena. Centro de Investigación y Desarrollo de la Cultura Cubana “Juan Marinello”. La Habana, Cuba. http://168.96.200.17/ar/libros/cuba/marin/nacion.rtf. “ Según explicara Fabio Grobart a posteriori: “ Esta miopía política se reflejó también en una errónea conclusión que los dirigentes del Partido sacaron, de la justa apreciación de que sustituir a Machado por un gobierno de la oposición burgués-terrateniente significaba dejar a Cuba en su estado de semicolonia y a las masas populares en la misma miseria y esclavitud y que únicamente un gobierno de trabajadores podía producir los cambios radicales que el país necesitaba /.../Dicha a conclusión fue profundamente falsa por ser mecánica, por no basarse en un análisis correcto del desarrollo dialéctico de la situación y, esencialmente, por no tener en cuenta que las masas revolucionarias, enardecidas por la victoria sobre Machado y orientadas en su acción por una justa política de su vanguardia marxista-leninista, sí podría asegurar los cambios profundos, es decir, la realización del programa agrario-antimperialista, por el cual abogaba y luchaba desde su fundación el Partido Comunista.(22)” Reference 22 is Fabio Grobart, 1985, p. 93, This author also refers in this regard to Leonel Soto, 1977, vol. II, p. 8. |
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:* ''"by the lower demand for sugar because of ], the attacks first by War of Independence Veterans, and later on by secret organizations principally the ABC"''. I have found no evidence that Suger was the singular exporting reason for the Economic decline at the time. This section you replaced, ''"by the ], which drove down the price of Cuba’s agricultural exports and caused widespread poverty"'' seems to more factually reflect the event. Nor have I found any evidence that ''"the attacks first by War of Independence Veterans, and later on by secret organizations principally the ABC"'' had a great deal to do with the Economic decline. As a separate argument, the only data I can find pertaining to the ABC is as a short lived and badly organized terrorist group, not as you call it, a "secret organization". |
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:* Your '''only''' reference in your entire contribution is a long, over-sensationalized, and frankly badly typed extract from, what I can only faithfully assume to be, a factual newspaper article; If you have access to this article you would have been better off scaning or photographing it, uploading to a permanent source, and using that as a reference. I can quote an extract of a news paper article claiming I'm the son of God, it doesn't make that true, and defeats the point of a reference. |
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:* The '''only''' reference in your entire contribution, the newspaper article, simply states the ''existence'' of the ABC, and to my research the ABC have had little, or no impact on the history of Cuba; indeed, it took me several minutes of searching to find ''any'' reference of the group outside of your contribution. |
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:* Your second contribution to the article, while containing much of the same mistakes I've already pointed out, also cut into a link rendering it viod, removed a perfectly valid image and failed to close the reference you quoted. |
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:* And finally this citation you've posted in response seems to be almost unrelated to any of the data in your contributions. And doesn't dismiss the problems listed above. |
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:] 12:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Revised insert on 1933 events== |
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Machado was a Cuban nationalist and his regime had considerable local support despite its violent suppression of critics. However, it was during this period that ] intrusion into Cuban affairs began with the arrival in Cuba of ]. During Machado's tenure, Cubans gained greater control over their own economy and major national development projects were undertaken. His hold on power was weakened, by the lower demand for sugar because of ], the attacks first by War of Independence Veterans, and later on by secret organizations principally the ABC <ref> Dutcher, Rodney (NEA) 1933 Machado Fights Terrorists With Terror To Hold Iron-Handed Foes: of "ABC” Copy Gangster Methods to Rid Island of Despot Who Has Ruled Since-1924 Syracuse Herald Friday evening, April 28, 1933. Front Page “Terrorism has been met "with terrorism in this unique outbreak waged mostly by students and young Intellectuals who brand Machado as a tyrant. On one side is the "ABC," secret terrorist, organization that has copied the methods ol gangsters in the fine art of assassination. On the other side are Machado's strong-armed and equally, ruthless secret police. Murder has followed murder in a series of spectacular killings. The Law of Flight Typical were assassinations of Dr. Clemente Vasquez Bella, president of the Cuban Senate and political ally of Machedo, and Capt. Miguel Calvo former head of the secret police Both were slain on busy throughfares, in daylight, by men who dashed past in autos firing shot guns. Many members, or suspected members of the "ABC" have been slain by the secret police in equally ruthless manner. Often, those killings have been defended on the ground that the victims preferred death to capture, though the evidence. In many cases Is not convincing. One police official alone is accused of 40 official assassinations. Police have also defended killings on the ground that the ley de fuga (law of flight) recognized the right of an officer to shoot an escaping prisoner. But, according to witnesses, prisoners have been released told to flee and then shot down they ran. Bombing has been common. Incendiary fires have destroyed much property. Great numbers of political prisoners have been jailed. President Machado, whose life has been threatened many times, is heavily guarded by soldiers and machine gun crews in his palace. He rides to and from his country estate in a bullet-proof auto, under escort of soldiers armed with rifles and machine guns. NEXT: Cuba economic distress and America's vast stake on the Island<ref> |
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Then during a general strike in which the communist party took the side of Machado <ref> Argote-Freyre, Frank, 2006 Fulgencio Batista: Volume 1, From Revolutionary to Strongman. Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, New Jersey ISBN 978-0813537010 p. 50 and later explained by the communists themselves in: Massón Sena, Caridad 2004 (accessed 6-9-07) Dos visiones sobre el nacionalismo y las alianzas: Mella y Villena. Centro de Investigación y Desarrollo de la Cultura Cubana “Juan Marinello”. La Habana, Cuba. http://168.96.200.17/ar/libros/cuba/marin/nacion.rtf. “ Según explicara Fabio Grobart a posteriori: “ Esta miopía política se reflejó también en una errónea conclusión que los dirigentes del Partido sacaron, de la justa apreciación de que sustituir a Machado por un gobierno de la oposición burgués-terrateniente significaba dejar a Cuba en su estado de semicolonia y a las masas populares en la misma miseria y esclavitud y que únicamente un gobierno de trabajadores podía producir los cambios radicales que el país necesitaba /.../Dicha a conclusión fue profundamente falsa por ser mecánica, por no basarse en un análisis correcto del desarrollo dialéctico de la situación y, esencialmente, por no tener en cuenta que las masas revolucionarias, enardecidas por la victoria sobre Machado y orientadas en su acción por una justa política de su vanguardia marxista-leninista, sí podría asegurar los cambios profundos, es decir, la realización del programa agrario-antimperialista, por el cual abogaba y luchaba desde su fundación el Partido Comunista.(22)” Reference 22 is Fabio Grobart, 1985, p. 93, This author also refers in this regard to Leonel Soto, 1977, vol. II, p. 8 </ref> the Senior elements of the Cuban army forced Machado into exile and installed ], son of Cuba's founding father, as President. In September, 4th-5th 1933) however, a second coup (led by sergeants, most notably ], overthrew Céspedes leading to the formation of the first ] government. This government lasted just 100 days, but engineered radical liberal changes in Cuban society and a rejection of the ]. |
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Then came the bloody events of the Hotel Nacional September 8- and November 8-9 1933 which culminated in the defense by and death of Blas Hernandez at the ancient castle of Atares in Havana, in which Batista loyal soldiers and radicals killed off much of their opposition <ref> Argote-Freyre, Frank, 2006 Fulgencio Batista: Volume 1, From Revolutionary to Strongman. Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, New Jersey ISBN 978-0813537010 pp. 96-102, 110- 122 </ref> |
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El Jigue] 12:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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: I'm rolling it back, again, this time without a warning untill we resolve this. Primarily for the reasons listed above, however you've also badly formatted your contribution, destroying the rest of the article. ] 12:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:: As a reminder, the data is stored in the articles history, and ''is not'' lost; as such we can recover and improve on it if you wish. ] 12:57, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Neobros: Went back and checked my insertion did not appear to damage the article, and it was carefully referenced. Please explain. El Jigue] 14:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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: As you can see on this , several of your tags weren't closed correctly, destroying the Notes and expanding the article to the right by several inches. |
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:: I'm glad to see you're improving your sources, but you've left in the newspaper extract; Such a large, unverifiable citation ideally needs the source paper scaning or photoing, uploading to an external source, then referencing back here; Both for article quality and the Citation sections' well-readability. |
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::: Also, I'd still prefer if you left the economic decline section to point out the failure of ''Agriculture'', as opposed to simply Suger; Suger, as I understand it, was only a portion of the Agricultural problems. If you think Organizations like the ABC and Independence fighters are worth a mention in the economic decline, I can't really disagree, they played a small part. But let's hold back calling the ABC a "Secret Organization", they're anything but the ] ;-) ] 14:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Yes I see that now tell me what to do with those "tag closing," the formating for these footnotes is so arcane I cannot tell what you mean. As to the secret nature of the ABC was essential to its survival in during the Machado era, and that term was used in newspaper accounts, would the word "covert" be more suitable. |
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As to the newspaper accounts they can be recovered from newspaperarchives.com would you be satisfied with the URL from there. However, this is a fee based source and that may cause difficulties.... |
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The puzzling thing about the reputation of the ABC is that it is often labeled "fascist," and yet in included a good number of personages of "Black" or Sub-saharan African heritage. For instance Riera Hernández, Mario 1965 Historial Obrero Cubano 1574-1965 Rema Press Miami Florida http://www.cubarepublicana.org/dobook.php?folder=historialobrerocubano p. 100 Los adversarios del exclusivista ABC endilgan a este groupo el sambenito de anti-negro y mussolinesco. Señalaron los rojos en un volante del Comité Central del Partido Comunista, entonces orientado por Martín Castellanos, la siguiente acusación: “A titulo de señuelos el fascista ABC hace figurar en sus cuadros reaccionarios a los negros Armado León Ibáñez (Cabo Soto); María Ignacio Mareu, Pastor González y Matías Cañizares, en fallido apaciguamiento de una masa negra y democrática que combate a ese aparato del imperialismo yankista de Cuba”. |
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and of course Batista, although he had considerable neo-Taino inheritance too, see for instance Argote-Freyre (p.40 and others) which discusses his covert activities with the ABC. El Jigue] 15:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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: I neglected to format the url correctly, it's fixed now. As a better explaination see , a temporary page correcting the tags, and a few small word changes you can see here . As you can see in the Notes it's still a bit long without external sources, but to be honest if those sources are diffucult to obtain, then we have what we have. |
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:: If you're happy with it, feel free to add it to the main Cuban page. I'll remove those warnings, and thanks for the contributions to the article :-) ] 15:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Neobros that was most kind and generous of you. Inserted section, it looks at least on first reading to be Ok. The 1930s in Cuba probably still need some details, such as the Hotel Nacional, the Atares actions, and the shooting of the ABC demonstration in 1934. I also would like to enter a brief note about the Cuban Navy sinking of a Nazi submarine during WWII. What holds me back is the matter of space. Perhaps there may be some reference to the Hotel Nacional somewhere around, perhaps in the Batista article....will check. El Jigue] 15:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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: Sounds good. Looking forward to reading it :-) |
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:: On another note, you may want to register with Misplaced Pages for future edits; As you could see by ]'s mistaken reversion, us anti-vandals get a bit trigger-happy when we see un-registered users making successive large contributions ;-) ] 16:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Thank you. However, El_C is quite familiar with my record. One visit to his Misplaced Pages home page suggests, |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/User:El_C |
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but does not prove, that our conflict is ideological. A person I knew, a non communist 7-26 rebel in the War Against Batista, was falsely accused and executed by the Che Guevara. This one matter about which my book in progress is about, this is one of the reasons that I contribute here; but another stronger reason is my search for truth as "corny" as that sounds. El Jigue] 20:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:Someone reverted you with an edit summary that read "see talk" and you revert without even an edit summary? You know better than that. Are you trying to be disruptive again? As for your book, please review our ] guideline. ] 20:53, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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My book is written in an attempt to be as objective as possible, if that is a conflict with Misplaced Pages guidelines, please advise. El Jigue] 21:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:The problem is the ] between an author and their work, not really the work itself (i.e. may be raised by someone else). Thanks. ] 21:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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I do not follow your argument, so far as I see your personal page promotes your partisan views on the Cuba circumstance, and that does not appear to disqualify you. And yet in your view, my book in progress on Cuba, which naturally you cannot have read since you do not know who I am, does disqualify me. If you would be so kind please clarify this intriguing matter in detail. El Jigue] 21:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:Disqualify me from what? I don't have yet-to-be-published book whose contents I'm trying to add to Misplaced Pages articles, and whose ] is on adding these ]. I, on average, am the top fifth editor in every country article. ] 21:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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El_C one may consider that it is less than wise to presume the content of unpublished book, when one neither knows the name of the author nor the nature of the book, much less to presume that my insertions in Misplaced Pages are taken from my book. While Misplaced Pages guidelines encourage the presumption of good faith. Some who do not subscribe to that guideline might interpret the content of your page as promoting a particular POV. Surely this is not correct. Although several other interpretations of the content of your page could be to taken suggest you are "false flagging" to collect a list contributors who subscribe to some ideological bent, or that you are simply trolling. Please assure me that none of these possibilities are true. El Jigue] 22:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:That "list," you just invented that, or does it actually exist outside your mind? Do you have evidence "that much of that El_C writes and many of those who El_C blocks , derive at least in part from his own political opinion," or are you just making this up as you go along? ] 22:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Cuban Involvement in Africa== |
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There is an important part of Cuban history missing in the history section. Cuba was actively involved in Africa for 25 years. Cuban Intervention in Guinea-Bisau and Angola was instrumental in ending imperialism in Africa and in the independance of Namibia. At the hight of their involvement there were 450.000 Cuban troops involved in a war against FNLA (supported by the USA and UNITA (supported by South Africa); very unique and no small feat for a little country halfway around the world. Cuba keeps the numbers of its fallen soldiers secret. Estimates go up to 10.000. This certainly left its mark on Cuban society. ] 11:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Sundar You are correct that is important. There are a number of descriptions on the web that talk about the actions for instance a Ciuta Canavale. However, they tend to be inaccurate. Are you sure about that 450,000 number? El Jigue] 13:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Sundar Started a section on these matters. PS Cuba is not a little country see Churchill's statement at the beginning of the page. El Jigue] 14:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Maine redoux redoux== |
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The section on the Maine while quite well researched from the Spanish point of view is not that commonly accepted. Thus I took the liberty of changing it slightly to reflect this circumstance. Please add and change as appropriate El Jigue] 16:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Exodus== |
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There is a new book out on the Cuban exodus: |
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*Pedraza, Silvia 2007 Political Disaffection in Cuba's Revolution and Exodus (Cambridge Studies in Contentious Politics) Cambridge University Press, New York ISBN-10 0521687292 ISBN-13 978-0521687294 Which besides many descriptions of escape, and foiled escape from the Island )e.g. the sinking of tugboat 13 de Marzo" and the drowning of families trying to escape (pp. 256, 261, 279), includes such fascinating details as allegations that Marcus Rodriguez. commonly believed to have been the perosn who betrayed the Humbolt 7 survivors of the attack on the palace and eventually executed for this, may have been innocent p. 129 |
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El Jigue] 13:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Cuban support for South Yemen== |
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Apparently some are remise to recognize Cuban government intervention place such as South Yemen. For this reason I have reinserted ] into article and added the following citations: |
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Ramazani, Rouhollah K. 1975 The Persian Gulf and the Strait of Hormuz. Vol. 3 Sijthoff & Noordhoof, Holland ISBN 9028600698 Mentions Cuban intervention in several different sections e.g. p. 75 “Just as the Soviet Union has sought the destruction of the Omani regime by proxy of South Yemini and Cuban support for the insurgents, the United States…” p. 115 “The Soviet Union indirectly intervened in the civil war in Oman by aiding the Dhofari rebels through Cuban and South Yemen.” Fontaine, Roger 1988 http://www.heritage.org/Research/LatinAmerica/bg655.cfm?renderforprint=1 “Third, the U.S. should consider ending its low-level diplomatic ties with Cuba THE EARLY YEARS OF CUBAN TERRORISM Cuban history is replete with examp les of terrorism, most notably in the early 1930s when groups of young Cubans struggled against General Gerardo Machado, who ran Cuba with an iron hand for nearly a decade beginning in 1925. Calling themselves the*ABC it is unclear what the initials stood for (This stood for the level of its cell structure A being the highest level B, the next etc El Jigue)), these young Cubans invented many of the techniques of modern urban terrorism (coordinated bombing, for example which Cuban advisers have passed on in scores of training camps around the world to thousands of Argentinians Brazilians, Chileans, Colombians, Ecuadorans, Hondurans, Nicaraguans, Salvadorans, and Uruguayans, to name a few in Latin America, and to Basques, Namibians, Palestinians West Germans, and Yemenis. ” |
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El Jigue] 17:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC) |
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In addition, changed the title of minisection to Africa and adjacent Asia Minor. El Jigue] 17:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Etymology== |
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Where did Cuba's name come from? It couldn't have come from the mouth of ], who had named it "Juana". was it named for a person? after a native word? after a bunch of natives? <nowiki></nowiki> — ] | ] 23:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:From ], the text says that the name came "From Taíno Indian "Cubanacan" — "centre place". In Portugal, some believe that the name echoes that of the Portuguese town of Cuba, speculating that Christopher Columbus provided a link. In portuguese and spanish, the word "cuba" refers to the barrels used to hold beverages." no source is provided for this info, though. <nowiki></nowiki> — ] | ] 23:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC) |
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== "It is one of the few remaining ] countries in the world." == |
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Before I start, let's just get a couple things out of the way: |
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1. Yes, I'm well aware that there aren't that many left. |
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2. Yes, I'm well aware that many people believe that the ] system in general is flawed. |
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3. And, more unimportantly, no, I'm not Cuban, nor related to anyone from ]. |
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However, I'm having problems with this statement. Let me quote it one more time: |
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''"It is one of few remaining Communist countries in the world."'' |
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Alright, I'll start with the small matters: First of all, "]" has a name...it would be better to just refer to it as "Cuba". Second of all, there are more than a "few" Communist countries in the world, and also rather a lot of ] countries, but I really think that should fall into the same category. Third, basically saying "Cuba's '''ALMOST''' the only remaining Communist country in the world" sounds rather like ] ] from the ], as if reffering to Communist countries as in "They'll all crumble...any day now...". Basically, I find that this statement could have cleverly hidden ] and could be incinuating ] POV, as if written by a staunch Republican. I actually think it would be better to say: |
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''"Cuba is in a minority of countries in the world which are still one-party, Communist republics."'' |
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Well? It makes more sense, it could contain no possible bias (on either side), and it tells the truth. Far better for this article than the previous statement. ] 23:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:Since 'communist countries' are those loyal to the continuity of the third Communist International, I personally have no problem with the original phrase - 5 is a few, and with the majority of those transforming into state capitalist republics, the taken implication that they are a dying breed is hardly contraversial. That said I'd blend the two and say ''"Cuba is one of the few remaining one-party, Communist republics."'' ] 18:51, 14 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Truth hard to find in Cuba, press panel says== |
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An interesting article came out today in Sun-Sentinal showing how difficult it is to get information out of Cuba http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/cuba/sfl-flbpress1016nboct16,0,1631791.story |
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El Jigue] 01:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC) |
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BTW who is that person who keeps erasing complete sections |
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==Overseas involvement== |
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Have attempted to balance the official Cuban government position on these matter with a certain measure of understated reality. Recognizing the bravery of the Cuban construction workers defending the landing strip in Grenada, and the presence of massive aid from Soviet block directed through Cuban surrogates to the Sandinista government of Ortega. Please add input as appropriate. El Jigue] 15:15, 22 October 2007 (UTC) |
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These insertions were promptly deleted, and the official Cuban version of the invasion of Grenada was reinserted. For the record I have placed the material below. El Jigue] 16:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC) |
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===Role of Soviet Advisers in training personnel for overseas operations=== |
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As early as 1959 Soviet Advisers were helping train overseas agents in Cuba. The agents were in place as early as September 1959 when KGB colonel, Valdim Kotchergin (or Kochergin) was seen in Cuba <ref>(British Foreign Office. Chancery American Department, Foreign Office, London September 2, 1959 (2181/59) to British Embassy Havana classified as restricted Released 2000 by among British Foreign Office papers FOREIGN OFFICES FILES FOR CUBA Part 1: Revolution in Cuba “in our letter 1011/59 May 6 we mentioned that a Russian workers' delegation had been invited to participate in the May Day celebrations here, but had been delayed. The interpreter with the party, which arrived later and stayed in Cuba a few days, was called Vadim Kotchergin although he was at the time using what he subsequently claimed was his mother's name of Liston (?). He remained in the background, and did not attract any attention..” </ref> Vadim Kochergin and also KGB Colonel (later General) Victor Simonov went on to train overseas personnel including Carlos the Jackal (Ilich Ramírez Sánchez) and subcomandante Marcos (Rafael Sebastián Guillén) <ref> Cuban American Foundation 2005 (accessed 10-22-07) El campo de entrenamiento "Punto Cero" donde el Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) adiestra a terroristas nacionales e internacionales November 7, 2005 http://www.canf.org/2005/1es/noticias-de-Cuba/2005-nov-07-el-campo-de-entrenamiento.htm “Los coroneles soviéticos de la KGB Vadim Kochergin y Victor Simonov (ascendido a general en 1970) fueron entrenadores en "Punto Cero" desde finales de los años 60 del siglo pasado. Uno de los" graduados" por Simonov en este campo de entrenamiento es Ilich Ramírez Sánchez, más conocido como "Carlos El Chacal". Otro "alumno" de esta instalación del terror es el mexicano Rafael Sebastián Guillén, alias "subcomandante Marcos", quien se "graduó" en "Punto Cero" a principio de los años 80.”</ref> |
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===Americas=== |
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The Cuban Government's military involvement in other countries of the America has been extensive. The most well known of these were the failed attempts by ] in Bolivia and the support for the ] in ]. Less known actions the 1959 adventures into the Dominican Republic <ref> AP 1950 Invasion Wiped Out Says Trujillo Waterloo Daily Courier Wednesday, June 24, 1959 Waterloo, Iowa, page 7 “The government announcement said Capt. Enrique Jimenez |
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Moya, described by' the exiles as the expedition leader,was killed as he tried to escape, it identified six other bodies among the rebel dead, but did not list the total casualties or |
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the size of the invasion force (other sources give the figure at about 89).”</ref> and Panama. Almost all countries in Latin America witnessed this kind of infiltration. |
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The official position of the Cuban government is that although allegations of the Cuban government's military involvement in other countries of the Americas have been extensive these are not well substantiated. The alleged presence of "armed Cuban military advisors" on the island of Grenada was given as one reason for the US government invasion of the island and overthrow of its government in 1981. The commercial airport that was being built on Grenada with Cuban assistance was also cited by US President Ronald Reagan claimed as evidence of Cuban interference in the region. In a speech in 1983, Reagan stated that satellite images of baseball diamonds in Nicaragua in the 1980s was proof of Cuban infiltration. Critics would observe that Reagan ignored the fact that baseball had been popular in Nicaragua since the turn of the century. The vigorous defense of the landing strip by the Cuban construction workers was one of the bravest ever carried out by civilians. Soviet block weapons used in Nicaragua have been incorporated into a monument celebrating peace. |
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One notes that these deletions were carried out by Meekywiki http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Meekywiki who has no apparent prior experience or expertise in Cuban matters. El Jigue] 16:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC) |
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The above statements of the Cuban position are readily found wanting. Documentation of this has been inserted (in abbreviated form) The first source inserted can be found here in full for scholarly purposes: |
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*AP 1987 Cubans in Nicaragua said to be prepared to fight if invaded The News, Frederick, Md., Monday, December 28, 1987 Washington p. A-8 (AP) - All Cuban personnel in Nicaragua, both military and civilian, have instructions to organize into combat units to assist the Sandinista Army in the event of a U.S. invasion of Nicaragua, according to a high-ranking Cuban defector. Brig. Gen. Rafael del Pino Diaz, who defected to the United States last May, told U.S. officials that the Cuban units in Nicaragua are under orders to cross into neighboring countries as part of a strategy to disperse the invading American forces as much as possible. The State Department has said there are between 2,500 and 3,500 Cuban military personnel in Nicaragua and an estimated 5,000 civilians, including doctors, teachers and others. Brig. Gen. Del Pino says there are only 300 to 400 Cuban soldiers in the country, but adds that even Cuban civilians there are regularly trained to ensure they are in adequate physical condition in case the cross-border march is ordered. Maj. Roger Miranda Bengoechea, a recent Nicaraguan Army defector, put the number of Cuban soldiers in Nicaragua at 500. Brig. Gen. Del Pino's comments had been kept secret, but an administration official made them available to The Associated Press because, he said, they closely parallel information Maj. Miranda provided. Maj. Miranda has told reporters the Sandinista military, recognizing that outright defeat of an American invasion is impossible, has developed a strategy to hold out as long as possible. The goal would be to give international public opinion time to rally support for Nicaragua and to force a U.S. withdrawal short of victory, he has said. Maj. Miranda has asserted that Nicaragua would be intent on "regionalizing" any conflict arising from a U.S. invasion by sending military units into Honduras, to the north, and Costa Rica, to the south. According to Brig. Gen. del Pino's testimony, Cuba would assist Nicaragua in the strategy by dispatching its own combat units into the neighboring countries. The Reagan administration has said there are no plans for an invasion and instead is hoping that the Contra rebels will either oust the Sandinistas or force them, through military pressure, to adopt Western-style democracy. Planning for the joint Cuban-Nicaraguan strategy for dealing with a U.S. invasion began after a U.S.-led military force ousted Grenada's leftist government in 1983, both Brig. Gen. del Pino and Maj. Miranda have said. That government was deposed in a matter of hours. There was no time for international public opinion to campaign |
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against the invasion and force a withdrawal that would have permitted the Grenada regime's survival. According to Brig. Gen. del Pino and Maj. Miranda, both Cuba and Nicaragua place high priority on avoiding a similar fate for the Sandinista government. Brig. Gen. Del Pino has said that a |
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principal element of the Cuban-Nicaraguan strategy is to force the United States to fight in a theater of operations larger than expected, thus complicating the task of the invading troops. He has told U.S. officials that each Cuban in Nicaragua has instructions on where to report once an invasion begins. Arms for the Cuban forces have been stashed lor this eventuality, he has said. Maj. Miranda has said the Sandinista government is operating under the assumption that an American invasion is inevitable. Defense Minister Humberto Ortega, corroborating Maj. Miranda's comments in many aspects, said two weeks ago that a 600,000 member Nicaraguan military force, comprised mostly of militia and reserves, is being planned with a 1995 target date. But President Daniel Ortega has said no final decision on a force buildup has been made. Both the president and the defense minister, his brother, have repeatedly warned their countrymen about the possibility of an American invasion.” |
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And in the second in abbreviated form here: |
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*The Daily Intelligencer Wednesday, November 02, 1983 Doylestown, Pennsylvania Page 3 “…600 Cubans held as detainees… The Pentagon says 18 U.S. servicemen have been killed, 86 wounded and one missing since the invasion. It has listed about 100 Cuban casualties without specifying dead and wounded. Ms. Peduzzi said the Swissair jet was waiting on Barbados for clearance from the U.S. military command to go to Grenada and fly out 35 wounded and 15 ill Cuban prisoners, possibly by Wednesday.” |
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*AP 1983 Searchers may have found Bishop's body Wednesday, November 09, 1983 Doylestown, Pennsylvania page 22 “CALIVIGNY, Grenada (AP) - U.S. soldiers dug up a burned and badiy decomposed body from a shallow pit Tuesday, and an officer said he was "relatively sure" it was the remains of slain Erime Minister Maurice Bishop. … Bishop, Foreign Minister Unison Whiteman, Housing Minister Norris Bain, Education Minister Jacqueline Creft and others were killed Oct. 19 after a crowd freed Bishop from house arrest and marched with him to the army headquarters at Fort Rupert (by Military Junta) U.S. forces invaded Oct. 25The pit is next to a bombed supply shed at the Calivigny barracks, a camp where the U.S army believes the Cubans were training the Grenandian army. … Gen. Jack Farris, who said "I think it's kind of important to find the body (of Bishop). He was a hero to some people here. Bishop and other members of the socialist New Jewel Movement party seized power in 1979 in a coup which toppled the government of Sir Eric Gairy…In Washington, the State Department said Tuesday… an estimated 50 Cubans were killed and 59 wounded In fighting following the U.S. landing on Grenada. Until Tuesday, the administration had withheld its estimate of the number of Cuban dead. The Pentagon has said 18 Americans died in the conflict, and that 18 inmates at a mental hospital were killed in an accidental U.S. bombing. ” |
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El Jigue] 23:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Cuba is not a small island as Churchill who had fought there knew== |
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Again we have the less than enlightened view that Cuba is a small island, a matter of some concern since this phrase is repeated ad nauseum. Saying that Cuba is a small island does not make it so, for Cuba is 766 miles long, and Churchill having fought there at Iguara in 1896 knew this well. Thus I have reinserted: Winston Churchill considered Cuba to be a "...large, rich, beautiful island..." Churchill, Winston S. 1951 The Second World War, Volume 5: Closing the Ring. Houghton Miffin Edition. Bantam Books, New York No ISBN or other number provided. P. 606 “Prime Minister to Foreign Secretary 5. Feb (19)44. Your minute about raising certain legations to the status of embassy. I must say that Cuba has as good a claim as some other places –“la perla de Las Antillas.” Great offense will be given if all the others have it and this large, rich, beautiful island, the home of the cigar, is denied. Surely Cuba has much more claim than Venezuela. You will make a bitter enemy if you leave them out, and after a bit you will be forced to give them what you have given to the others.” El Jigue] 17:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC) |
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One notes the dissenting opinion of contributor http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/207.151.245.218 however, this seems to be the only contribution from that source. El Jigue] 15:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC) |
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== Grammatical Error == |
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I know that the first sentence of the section about the spanish view on the Maine incident is grammatically incorrect. Problem is, I'm not skilled enough with grammar to fix it. Can someone please fix it? ] 15:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:I've made a section out of the whole Maine incident and reshuffled the text, hopefully to improve the flow. ] 17:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Michael the main analysis presented here is extreme and apparently derived the Spanish Government's point of view and is not counterbalanced by the findings of numerous other investigations. See Samuels, Peggy and Harold. ''Remembering the Maine.'' (Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1995) a more balanced text, for details. Thus although I have left the present text as is and unchanged, I have labeled it "an alternative view" El Jigue] 00:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC) |
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== Removed text about the Maine Incident == |
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I removed the below because the source appears to be a random web site. Published professional historians would be much more appropriate. If there are "fringe" theories about the attack, their notability needs to be established and they need to be put in context. The removed text also has POV problems. -- ] 19:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC) |
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---- |
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Even McMorrow <ref>McMorrow, Edward P. (accessed 10-27-07) What Destroyed the USS MAINE - An opinion. http://www.spanamwar.com/Mainemo1.htm http://www.spanamwar.com/Mainemo2.htm </ref>, who concludes that it was most probable but not proven, that Cuban rebels caused the explosion, is forced to speculate on unknown plots and mechanisms.{{POV statement}} For instance McMorrow’s hypothesis relies on complete rationality of the Spanish Weylerites: {{POV statement}} |
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*“Thus, there seems to be a strong argument for Weylerite guilt based on their hostility towards the United States, and evidence of intention to attack the MAINE in particular. However, such an act against an American warship would have been a foolish move for a group of Spanish nationalists who were trying to maintain Spanish colonial rule over the island, for the same reasons that would have made it a foolish move for the Spanish authorities.” |
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and suicidal actions on the part of the Cuban rebels: |
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*”Alternately, a basic mine could have been brought to the side of the ship by a swimmer and directly triggered by the same person in a suicide attack. Thus, it seems most likely that the Cuban rebels were the guilty party because they had the most to gain from the incident.” |
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Neither complete rationality of the Weylerites nor suicidal actions by Cuban rebels have basis in historical fact.{{POV statement}} |
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---- |
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Beltran |
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*Point 1 the web site you maligned is the most respected web site on the Spanish American War. |
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*Point 2 only if genocide can be considered a rational point of view, can the Weylerite actions in Cuba be considered rational |
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*Point 3 to consider that the Cuban rebels, who were consummate and cautious guerrillas, were suicidal is deviating from objective reality. |
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El Jigue] 19:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC) |
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===List of significant military actions during colonial times=== |
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* English landing at Guantanamo (Cumberland)by Admiral Edward Vernon 1741 |
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* English Conquest of Havana 1762-1763 |
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* Annexionist actions Narciso Lopez1850, 1851 |
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* Ten Years War 1868-1878 |
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* Guerra Chiquita 1880 Antonio Maceo Calixto Garcia |
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* War of Independence 1895-1898 |
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Added list El Jigue] 19:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Blank statements without details have not useful purpose== |
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A blank statement e.g. section too long, needs editing, etc. without explanation serves no useful purpose. Such a notice should be followed by some description of the perceived flaw. El Jigue] 13:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC) |
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==Need to compare present to previous conditions in Cuba== |
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It is necessary for balance to compare economic conditions before and after Castro, instead of lambasting past conditions and then white washing Cuban conditions for the last almost fifty years. Thus, in the Carlos Prío Socarrás section of this page, I have inserted: |
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*The influx of investment fueled a boom which did much to raise living standards across the board and create a prosperous middle class in most urban areas, although the gap between rich and poor became wider and more obvious.” <ref> José, Alvarez 2004 Cuban Agriculture Before 1959: The Social Situation. FE480 Extension Service/Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences/University of Florida http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FE/FE48000.pd” Law No. 5 created the Banco de Fomento Agrícola e Industrial de Cuba (BANFAIC), which was enacted on December 20, 1950, by President Carlos Prío Socarrás. (In fact, Law No. 13 of 1948, establishing Cuba's national bank, envisioned an agricultural bank as a necessary complement.) Law No. 15 of 1949 authorized the issuance of $200 million in bonds. Of the $25 million going to BANFAIC, an equal distribution went to the agricultural and industrial branches. … It is clearly stated in the ACU study: “The city of Havana is living an epoch of extraordinary prosperity, while in the countryside, people, especially the agricultural workers, are living in sluggish, miserable, and desperate conditions too difficult to believe” (Gastón et al., 1957, p. 6). |
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Thus it is obvious that the living conditions in the city of Havana, and perhaps in a few other urban areas of Cuba, did not parallel those described in this fact sheet for the countryside.” </ref> However, during the last almost fifty years of Castro government rule, the good economic conditions of urban areas decayed, and the level comfort as judged by foot rationing of the whole populations rural or urban became far worse. <ref> José, Alvarez 2000 Rationed Products and Something Else: Food Availability and Distribution in 2001 Cuba in Transition 11 pp. 305-322 http://lanic.utexas.edu/project/asce/pdfs/volume11/alvarez.pdf “To blame the U.S. economic sanctions for the existence of a rationing system of basic food products is not a very intelligent argument to justify Cuba’s socialist system. It is an admission that Cubans cannot even produce what grows very easily on Cuban soil. If one lists the food products that have been rationed since 1962, it becomes evident that almost all of them were in abundance before the 1959 revolution. Granted, all Cubans were not able to consume a wide variety of products because the instrument for rationing was the price system. But even after the rationing system was established, there have been periods in |
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which the abundance of several products demonstrated the feasibility of returning to a stable and ample supply of food products. I remember the proliferation of a chain of government stores called FrutiCuba devoted exclusively to the selling of numerous fruits and vegetables in the mid-1960s. The existence of the free farmers’ markets in the 1980s, the free agricultural markets after 1994, and the new food outlets described below testify to the ability of Cuban farmers, now including urban inexperienced farmers, to produce abundant food supplies despite the U.S. economic sanctions, that could do away with the food rationing system. It is interesting to recall that, when the Soviet bloc was subsidizing the Cuban economy to the tune of five billion dollars per year, food was still rationed in Cuba.”</ref> |
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El Jigue] 19:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC) |
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:I've removed the last sentence as the comparison is completely unnecessary in an historical description of events. Mind you I do like the idea of foot rationing. El J caught on the hop perhaps? ] 01:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC) |
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==Militant activist keeps white washing Castro government actions== |
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Militant "Frank Pais" http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Frank_Pais (who is apparently unaware that the real ] was anti-communist and betrayed to Batista by Vilma Espin, self-describes as: |
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*"Proud Argentinian political scientist, an ex-pat. Strong interest in Cuban politics, anti-fascism, beer brewing, Chilean history, human rights, international economics, and the saxophone. ¡Vivan las islas Malvinas!" |
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Is now deleting material underfalse pretenses, his last deletion (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Cuba&diff=168376700&oldid=168353402) claims lack of source. on examination this claim proved false. El Jigue] 21:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC) |
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===A somewhat less than flattering note=== |
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Just receive a somewhat less than flattering note apparently from 71.101.58.229 to my talk page at: |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:208.65.188.149&diff=cur |
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the note reads: |
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*The above comment is more garbage by the ultra-right fascists of Miami. To: El Jigue: You are a comemierda. That is the reason you can not go to Cuba. Your brothers and sisters inside the island reject you. Stay in Miami, you piece of SCUM. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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It appears that the lady/gentleman in question is referring to: |
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"One of the matters in discussion in official circles in Washington DC is when, after the Castros leave the scene, will the succeeding Cuban government be responsible for the Castros' vast foreign debts (in excess of 40 billion dollars). One of the factors is that if the Castros' can be considered foreign agents (e.g. given Raul Castro's training in the Eastern Block countries, and Fidel Castro's speech at the funeral of Fabio Grobart etc) then the 1898 Treaty of Paris applies, and the Cuban people are thus absolved of any responsability for this debt. El Jigue 11-24-06" |
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El Jigue] 22:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC) |
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== Footnote 81 == |
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Footnote 81 has nothing to do with the assertion it is supposed to prove! Someone recommend a fix! |
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] 07:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC) |
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==Claiming data was ideological citations were removed== |
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This citation (see below), which is by the same author as previous cite, and presents balanced, factual and data was removed. In other words the citation that describes good urban conditions but poor rural conditions during the Prio administration, is left unqualified by necessary comparison to bad urban and rural conditions in present day Cuba. |
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*However for necessary comparison, during the last almost fifty years of Castro government rule, the good economic conditions of urban areas decayed, and the level comfort as judged by foot rationing of the whole populations rural or urban became far worse. José, Alvarez 2000 Rationed Products and Something Else: Food Availability and Distribution in 2001 Cuba in Transition 11 pp. 305-322 http://lanic.utexas.edu/project/asce/pdfs/volume11/alvarez.pdf “To blame the U.S. economic sanctions for the existence of a rationing system of basic food products is not a very intelligent argument to justify Cuba’s socialist system. It is an admission that Cubans cannot even produce what grows very easily on Cuban soil. If one lists the food products that have been rationed since 1962, it becomes evident that almost all of them were in abundance before the 1959 revolution. Granted, all Cubans were not able to consume a wide variety of products because the instrument for rationing was the price system. But even after the rationing system was established, there have been periods in which the abundance of several products demonstrated the feasibility of returning to a stable and ample supply of food products. I remember the proliferation of a chain of government stores called FrutiCuba devoted exclusively to the selling of numerous fruits and vegetables in the mid-1960s. The existence of the free farmers’ markets in the 1980s, the free agricultural markets after 1994, and the new food outlets described below testify to the ability of Cuban farmers, now including urban inexperienced farmers, to produce abundant food supplies despite the U.S. economic sanctions, that could do away with the food rationing system. It is interesting to recall that, when the Soviet bloc was subsidizing the Cuban economy to the tune of five billion dollars per year, food was still rationed in Cuba.” |
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It is POV to select citations to attempt prove a point El Jigue] 15:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:I didn't select the references. I simply removed an out of context contemporary comparison and the attached reference. If you want to make of this page more of an ideological battle than already exists, then perhaps you would like to insert contemporary comparisons throughout. They do not belong in an historical description and this particular inclusion is clearly driven by the POV you bring to the page. I'm sure those of us more sympathetic to the Cuban revolution could have a whale of a time putting in comparisons which reflected well on current developments, as you could do the opposite. ] 13:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC) |
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===A somewhat less than flattering note=== |
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Just receive a somewhat less than flattering note apparently from 71.101.58.229 to my talk page at: |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:208.65.188.149&diff=cur |
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the note reads: |
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*The above comment is more garbage by the ultra-right fascists of Miami. To: El Jigue: You are a comemierda. That is the reason you can not go to Cuba. Your brothers and sisters inside the island reject you. Stay in Miami, you piece of SCUM. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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It appears that the lady/gentleman in question is referring to: |
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"One of the matters in discussion in official circles in Washington DC is when, after the Castros leave the scene, will the succeeding Cuban government be responsible for the Castros' vast foreign debts (in excess of 40 billion dollars). One of the factors is that if the Castros' can be considered foreign agents (e.g. given Raul Castro's training in the Eastern Block countries, and Fidel Castro's speech at the funeral of Fabio Grobart etc) then the 1898 Treaty of Paris applies, and the Cuban people are thus absolved of any responsability for this debt. El Jigue 11-24-06" |
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El Jigue] 22:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC) |
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===Cuban government partisans on attack yet again=== |
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Cuban government partisans on attack again, deleting data on present conditions, falsely alleging that it is a personal attack on a living person. Ignoring the fact that the present Cuban goverment has been in power for almost fifty years, and thus must bear responsability for present conditions in Cuba. El Jigue] 21:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:Until you plausibly justify the inclusion of contemporary comparison in historical descriptions, I will remove it - and if necessary ask for arbitration. This is not, as I pointed out above, an ideological attack, but an issue of structure within Misplaced Pages. I'm curious about this false allegation - I suspect you are getting the fronts you are fighting on mixed up. I, who deleted the present day data, made no such allegation. ] 05:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::It's good to see El Jigue being more cooperative on these Cuban related articles. ] 15:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC) |
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==Video on Cuba's hospitals== |
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Footnote 30 links to a Fox News report. Given the ideological slant of this channel, can this be in any way considered a reliable source? ] 09:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Yes! Fox is no more ideological than CNN or the BBC or the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal. There is no such thing as "objective." |
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] 20:26, 4 November 2007 (UTC) |
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==Desperate attempts to whitewash Castro's record== |
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Several wiki-personas are desperately attempting by every means, and spurious excuse to delete material that is unfavorable to the Cuban government (see immediately above "Video on Cuba's hospitals"). Matters slated for such a whitewash, include: |
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*the shortage of food in Cuba for the last 47 years or so. |
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*that the Castro brothers have been in power for almost fifty years |
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*foreign adventures of the Cuban government |
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*that Subcomandante Marcos, the Cuban government trained agitator in Chiapas, Mexico, assumes the role of an indigenous Maya, but since he has an appearance far more consistent with majority European heritage. has to cover his face with a ski-mask. |
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These wiki-personas suddenly appear with a very short Misplaced Pages record, or a very short record on Cuban matters. This could be taken to suggest that they are either ad hock personas conjured up for this very purpose, or persons new to this Cuba page. |
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El Jigue] 02:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:I suspect that El Jigue is a collective persona and the current inhabitant of the shell is new to the scene. Anyway whoever you are - will you please engage with the actual reason for my deletion - that contemporary comparisons do not belong in historical narratives, (at least not in Misplaced Pages, which is not a student essay - compare and contrast...), instead of simply replacing the original sentence, amusing typo and all. ] 07:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Michael W. You allege, based upon some secret rule (see Animal House's Dean Wormer, ''double secret codicles'') that "contemporary comparisons do not belong in historical narrative." This would be an action similar, to the teaching of history in second Batista (1950s) dictatorship, when narrations of then relatively recent histories (1930s) were omitted from school curriculums, since they would place Batista in an unfavorable light. Thus, while your point of view is interesting it is invalid, since even were some such secret Misplaced Pages rule to exist it would not apply since Fidel Castro has passed from power, if not quite yet from life... and he has moved to what you like to call "historical narrative." El Jigue (now alleged to be some kind of multiple diety)] 15:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC) |
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: No secret rule, just common sense. I've got no objection in general to time spanning comparisons, but they are the stuff of historical debate not description. A section about one time period should stick to that period. In this case it is irrelevant that a later government was, as you claim, just as incompetent. The section in question is entitled _After WWII_ and covers 1945 - 1952. Your insertion of a criticism of the Castro period is not motivated by an interest in clarity but by your obsessive desire to cast the worst possible light you can on the Cuban Revolutionary period. You are so much in kneejerk mode that you have persisted in replacing the foot/food typo. I'm not the fanatic round here. ] 16:43, 5 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Michael I will move section to later period.... Oh by the way I read your discussion section... |
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*http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:MichaelW |
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it does seem somewhat less than impartial on Cuban matters... El Jigue] 18:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:The temptation to be sarcastic almost overcame me. My sympathies, unlike yours, do not prevent me from trying to help make these Cuba pages as balanced as possible. I've spent enough time living and working on Cuba with a range of residents from pro to anti communist to know that your stance presents a bleak caricature of the reality. The way that you took my 'I suspect that El Jigue is a collective persona...' and translated it into 'alleged to be some kind of multiple diety' speaks volumes about your paranoid and inflated sense of your own worth, not to mention an over-hasty use of 'Save page'! ] 19:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Thank you Michael, for making my points even more manifest. One would presume that since you work in Cuba you are an employee of the Cuban Government and thus not eligible to contribute to this page. El Jigue(bleak caricaturist of the Cuban reality)] 20:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:You presume wrong - here 'have spent' is past tense and work can be voluntary. Your points are blunt and bent and as manifest as American destiny. ] 02:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::Cuban employees are absolutely allowed to contribute to this article, exactly the same as you. We don't prohibit people who live in Cuba or work for their government from working here, we encourage them for their specialist knowledge. Thanks, ] 17:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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==Photographs of a dead Castro are in circulation== |
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Excellent photographs of a dead Castro are in circulation, they are either extremely high quality montages or the real thing. El Jigue] 23:38, 11 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Apparently they are excellent fakes done some time ago see http://lacrudarealidad.blogsome.com/2006/12/28/fidel-castro-ha-muerto/ |
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El Jigue] 00:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:Since they're not a reliable source, they've no place in the article. ] 19:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC) |
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UH!!!!!!!!! I already said they were faked what gives. El Jigue] 01:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:What gives is the usage of 'talk pages'. This stuff is just more ''gossip'' and has no place here. What must myself and others do to make you understand that? ''DON'T ADD GOSSIP ON TALK PAGES, PLEASE''. ] 21:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::Furthermore, If you have no 'intentions' of adding things to the article - Don't post them here (talk pages). ] 21:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:We certainly cannot include pics of an allegedly dead Castro when he isn't dead. Thanks, ] 22:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC) |
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==El Jigue== |
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Por favor, El Jigue, pueda acabar con esta actitud que traigas aqui. Somos un enciclopedia y esto quire decir que todos los editores aqui necesitan traer una actitud de neutralidad a este articulo, o sea que no debemos pensar que Castro es correcto o incorrecto, que es heroe o que es dictador. Hay muchos foros donde uno pueda discutir Castro y su influencia sobre Cuba pero wikipedia no es un foro. Thanks, ] 22:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC) |
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SB: Looks like there is another attempt to ban me, and continue to whitewash the record of the present government. Neutrality does not mean being neutered. Let me repeat the record shows that Castro is an autocrat. It would be far wiser if more time were spent on adding pertinent material to the page rather than trying to whitewash the record of the present Cuban government El Jigue] 16:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:Where do you draw the erroneous conclusion I want to ban you? Nobody wants to whitewash the record of the current government in Cuba, least of all me, but nor should it be blackwashed. The record shows that Castro invokes strong and differing reactions from adoration to blind hatred, you may be bale to continue posting but you cannot use wikipedia to push your agenda any more than Castrosits can so you are wasting your time. Thanks, ] 17:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::EJ, what ''must'' we do to get it through your head - It's not what you're gossiping that troubles us, it's that you're gossiping period. Stop obstructing the talk pages Please. Perhaps it's time to start having your ''gossip colums'' deleted. Since apparently, you're being uncooperative about it. ] 20:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Since EJ has ''no respect'' for Misplaced Pages's policies on talk pages, perhaps we should start ''deleting'' his postings everytime he posts blogs/gossip. ] 20:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:::I think any off topic edits could be removed, if El Jigue wisheds to edit here and his edits appear off topic he needs to be explaining why they are on-topic. For instance I fail to see how fake pics of a dead Fidel could possibly help the article; there are forums and blogs for that kind of thing. Thanks, ] 20:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::::Howabout a 'committee of three editors' to monitor EJ's postings, the postings that are pure gossip get ''deleted''. PS- Though I agree with EJ about the reliablility of Communist sources - that doesn't call for the talkpages to be used as a 'political platforms' for EJ's views. ] 21:01, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::PS- What gossip will EJ post next? ''It's been reported Raul Castro twisted his ankle, while undercover skiing in Austria'' or ''It's been reported Fide Castro jumped a burgler at a restaurant, saving the workers; yet dressed as Groucho Marx'' etc etc. ] 21:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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==Cuban "diplomats" attempt to browbeat French journalist into silence about human rights== |
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*"Havana refused for years to allow U.N. envoys to visit and investigate alleged rights abuses in the country, claiming that such missions would violate Cuban sovereignty." |
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*"The Cuban officials asked journalists in the room to identify the name and agency of the journalist who debated Ziegler." http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071114/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/un_cuba_journalists;_ylt=AgdgibuIz.9fP_28U9C6OCG3IxIF |
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El Jigue] 16:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:And? . Thanks, ] 17:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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SQ Thank you since your response merely reinforces my argument. El Jigue] 18:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:Er you have lost me there. What precisely is your argument? That we ditch neutrality and turn this page into an anti-Castro page? The problem with that is that anyone can edit and the pro-Castrosits won't allow that to happen. We need Freedomwarrior and Ejercito Rojo fighting over the Fidel article the other day, sigh! I am here as an encyclopedia writer and what inter\rests me is a neutrality that incorporates both the pro and anti- Castroists. Take a look at my user page and you will see I am not biased in favour of Fidel. Thanks, ] 19:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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SQ This is merely an example, of a very large number of incidents, and here one can clearly see that Castro is a dictator since only dictators try to inhibit by coercion, rather than manipulate, the press overseas in this way.... Darn it they have been beating up people in Geneva for some time. Don't you remember the Calzon incident, El Jigue] 19:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::Neutrality demands we include both sides, ie the pro and anti-Castroists. Me, I am on the side of the King of Spain but here at wikipedia I am not here to express my views but to help write a neutral encyclopedia. What this means is your stuff can go in if there is other stuff to balance it (not the fake pics of course but the reasonable, well sourced stuff. I think the Calzon incident passed me by. Thanks, ] 20:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
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==Objectivity is not a balance of pro- and anti-Castro but the evaluation of factual data== |
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It is my opinion that factual data is not obtained by trying to achieve a balance of pro- and anti-Castro view points, but by attempting to evaluate each factual event on its own and in context. |
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El Jigue] (]) 16:53, 17 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:Well that is your opinion. But our ] states that all notable views need to be presented. What is not going to happen is that we present either the pro-Castro or the anti-Castro viewpoints as the exclusive viewpoint. Thanks, ] 17:08, 17 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::The facts are not that clear, either...] (]) 00:59, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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== Huge refs== |
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Several references in the history section including multiple paragraphs of the source material. I've removed them, since this is really not the appropriate place, and suggest that if people feel it's important to have access to these particular paragraphs that they be moved to Wikisource. ] (]) 15:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:So, having looked at the notes section, someone made extensive additions to the history section and added an equal amount of content to the references themselves. These long references are much more in the style of endnotes in a book and seem inappropriate in an encylcopedia article, but since there are so many of them and I know Cuba can be a hot topic, I wanted to check with more regular editors of this page before I trim all the refs. Is this in response to some conflict about veracity of sources? If not, I don't see what purpose these extended notes serve, other than to clutter up the refs section. And as I said in my earlier comment, quite a few of these things would be eligible to move to Wikisource. ] (]) 17:22, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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==Was forced to restore material deleted== |
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It is very destructive, almost akin to vandalism,to engage in massive deletions with the only briefest explanation. These changes ignored years of discussion and left the article with a decided pro-Castro bent. It might be wise for Ms Erin to be more prudent until she learns more about Cuban history. El Jigue] (]) 19:25, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:Continued disrespect of Misplaced Pages policies on talk pages concerning bloging/gossiping, must not be tolerated. ] (]) 20:33, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::Firstly, familiarize yourself with ], sooner rather than later. I shortened an excessively long note in an infobox (which are supposed to be brief) and removed unecessary subheadings. If you feel that the information I removed from the box is so vital as to be necessary for the article, maybe you should put it somewhere else in the article, instead of the infobox. I fail to see how this leaves the article with a "pro-Castro bent". I'm restoring my removal of the unecessary subheadings, since you have not addressed that at all. I can only assume you restored them accidently in your rush to revert me. ] (]) 20:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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==Almost 50 years of censorship in Cuba== |
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There has been almost 50 years of ], this has wide ranging effects on the perception of Cuban matters. Outside of Cuba some academic activists have been attacking and in some cases were able to deny tenure to other academics who have non-Castro view points. Communist party activists world wide have been promoting a spurious view of Cuban data. Cuban archives are only available to those viewed with favor by Cuban government, thus one has to be cautious about data generated in this fashion. El Jigue20:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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If one doubts this, ask a simple current question: |
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What year was recently deceased. former chief of Cuban armed forces staff and interior minister, Sergio del Valle Jimenez born? |
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El Jigue] (]) 20:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:Unless the above posting has anything in it, to be added to the article (with citations)? It must be viewed as a ''personal complaint'' blog -- I recommend it be deleted from this talk page (if that's the case). ] (]) 20:30, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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GD So you want to remove the reality of Cuban censorship, and verification of that reality. Would it be malicious of me to suggest that this request of yours merely supports this point. El Jigue] (]) 20:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:Unless the above posting has anything in it, to be added to the article (with citation)? It must be viewed as a ''personal complaint'' blog -- Again, recommend it be deleted from this talk page (if that's the case). Note - that ''editor in question'' continues to ignore requests to ''stop bloggin/gossiping'' on talk pages. Thus showing no respect for Misplaced Pages's policies. ] (]) 20:46, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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== Human Rights section in need of review; who wrote this? == |
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*Yahoo news. 2007 (accessed 11-18-07) Cuban Gen. del Valle dies Fri Nov 16, 12:38 PM ET http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071116/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/obit_del_valle;_ylt=AmEk4BBwcpumIvizYXgNGSC3IxIF |
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::Add to article, ''if'' source is 'reliable'. ] (]) 20:53, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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=== <s>Torture and weird sources</s> === |
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GD the reliability of this source is a matter of opinion, since, the material is taken almost verbatim from an official Cuban Government source the periodical Granma. Apparently even the Granma staff does not know the birthdate of an important Cuba official. El Jigue] (]) 21:00, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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<s>First of all, simply writing "The Cuban government has been accused of numerous human rights abuses including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions" is not sufficient without mention of proper sources, for example NGO's or some recognized polity. I could accuse Norway of torture right now, so? What is this source supposed to be? http://www.cidh.org/countryrep/Cuba67sp/indice.htm It is dated 1967? Surely something more recent should be found, otherwise the section might aswell be moved to "history of Cuba" Torture? Extrajudicial executions? I can't find any mention of these in recent reports. Not even the US state department claims the Cuban government practices torture or extrajudicial execution. Here is the recent report by human rights watch https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/cuba#3159b0 It does not mention torture, sexual abuse of inmates or extrajudicial executions. Those parts should be removed or changed to include what time this accusation was made. |
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'''Needs update''' |
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For AP report taken from the same source: |
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''Cuba had the second-highest number of imprisoned journalists of any nation in 2008 (China had the highest) according to various sources, including the Committee to Protect Journalists and Human Rights Watch'' |
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071116/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/obit_del_valle_1 |
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:Again, if sources are reliable? - add ''General de Valle death'' to article. If sources are not reliable? Please remove mentioning of it at this talk page. Tak note: Editor in question continues to ''ignore'' Talk Page policies on Blogging/Gossiping. ] (]) 21:07, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Here it is mentioned that the statistic stems from 2008, which is good. But this statistic is kind of useless other then mentioning a previous condition. It missrepresents Cuba for the average reader. Cuba did not even make the list of this 2018 ranking for imprisoned journalists: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/12/13/where-the-most-journalists-are-imprisoned-worldwide-infographic/?sh=1b693b336332 |
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GD Make a ] page and then we can talk about it. El Jigue] (]) 21:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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The situation of journalists in Cuba is still under scrutany, but for different reasons. For example HRC writes: Cuba has the “most restricted climate for the press in the Americas” according to a 2019 Committee to Protect Journalists report. |
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'''WP:POV?''' |
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GD guess what a page on him showed up within the last few days. El Jigue] (]) 21:17, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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The section does not balance out the negatives with the positives, such as information about Cubans access to healthcare, free abortions and school etc. Accusations from 70 years ago are being represented as if they are currently being made (torture and executions) |
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:Could you at least try to assume the good faith of other editors and act civil? Your attitude is not particularly conducive to a collaborative work. I think you'll find you have a much easier time here. ] (]) 21:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:Natali, whom are you speaking to, me or EJ (I'm assuming me). ] (]) 21:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::Oh, sorry. I'm actually speak to EJ. ] (]) 21:46, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Tis' alright. I've been trying to ''reason'' with EJ for almost a year. Recently (due to fear of languistic barriers), I had somebody contact him in Spanish concerning usage of 'talk pages'; but apparently it's been futile. Therefore, I've taken his subsequent bloggings as being uncooperative. ] (]) 22:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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'''recomendations''' |
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GD ''Subsequent'' is the most commonly accepted spelling. ''Bloggins'' one can presume is somebody from the Shire in Middle Earth. El Jigue] (]) 00:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC) |
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1. Remove claims of torture and extrajudicial executions from the first sentence |
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:El Jigue, I'm asking you nicely, yet again, to treat your fellow editors with respect. Your attitude on these pages is incredibly uncooperative and you have not responded to anything I've said to you. You've also reverted me twice without explanation. I will not revert back, as that would be edit warring, but you might find ] and ] helpful. If you continue editing in the manner in which you have been editing today, I can almost guarantee that you'll be blocked again, and probably for longer this time. ] (]) 01:38, 19 November 2007 (UTC) |
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2. Mention were all accusations come from and source it |
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3. Remove the part about sexual abuse of inmates |
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4. Update section to represent current conditions. |
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5. Extend the section about the media with more information and remove the part about imprisonment of journalists. |
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-- <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ])</s> 18 March 2022 (UTC)</span><sup></sup> |
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==Natalie Erin planning a purge of "anti-Castroites"=== |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2024 == |
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It would seem that Natalie Erin a real newbie on the Cuba page is planning a purge of "anti-Castroites" El Jigue] (]) 04:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC) |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Cuba|answered=yes}} |
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I am trying to give the Lucumí name for Cuba as well as it's original native name "Cubanascnan" ] (]) 23:24, 27 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 23:41, 27 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Correction == |
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Take this example from her talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Natalie_Erin |
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cuba is a state capitalist country, not socialist. Please fix this. ] (]) 05:49, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Hi, Natalie. Here is ''bibliotecario'' ] from the Spanish Misplaced Pages. The user you are talking about used to be active on es:, as seen on ] while being {{u|205.240.227.15}}, but seems to have disappeared since I blocked him on May 7. He as ''El Jigüe'' ] with his current IP, {{u|208.65.188.149}}. Fortunately, that's all what I have to say. There are, however, some rabious anti-Castro users, but only a checkuser can provide some evidence. Regards, ] (]) 02:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] ]<sup>]</sup> 06:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC) |
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El Jigue] (]) 04:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Here it is mentioned that the statistic stems from 2008, which is good. But this statistic is kind of useless other then mentioning a previous condition. It missrepresents Cuba for the average reader. Cuba did not even make the list of this 2018 ranking for imprisoned journalists: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/12/13/where-the-most-journalists-are-imprisoned-worldwide-infographic/?sh=1b693b336332
The situation of journalists in Cuba is still under scrutany, but for different reasons. For example HRC writes: Cuba has the “most restricted climate for the press in the Americas” according to a 2019 Committee to Protect Journalists report.
The section does not balance out the negatives with the positives, such as information about Cubans access to healthcare, free abortions and school etc. Accusations from 70 years ago are being represented as if they are currently being made (torture and executions)
1. Remove claims of torture and extrajudicial executions from the first sentence
2. Mention were all accusations come from and source it
3. Remove the part about sexual abuse of inmates
4. Update section to represent current conditions.
5. Extend the section about the media with more information and remove the part about imprisonment of journalists.
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale..svg){kind=small}
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jamedeus (talk) 23:41, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. (CC) Tbhotch 06:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)