Revision as of 19:45, 29 June 2005 view sourceArbor (talk | contribs)2,326 edits →Unanswered questions on apparent racist method of presentation← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 12:17, 9 January 2025 view source Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,305,781 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Race and intelligence/Archive 104) (bot |
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''This page was suggested for deletion in June 2005, and consensus was a clear '''keep'''. You can still read ], though it is no longer live.'' |
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*'''Archived discussions''': ] ] ], ], ], ], ], ], and ]. |
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*Please maintain '''professionalism''' in your posts, even on emotional topics like ] and ]. Don't speculate on the motives of the other contributors to this article. If you want to volunteer at Misplaced Pages, follow the civility guidelines: ''See ]'' |
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{{Press |
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| title = Topics that spark Misplaced Pages 'edit wars' revealed |
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| org = ] |
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| url = http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23354613 |
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| date = 18 July 2013 |
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| author2 = Doug Gross |
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| title2 = Wiki wars: The 10 most controversial Misplaced Pages pages |
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| url2 = http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/24/tech/web/controversial-wikipedia-pages/index.html |
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| date2 = July 24, 2013 |
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| quote2 = "Circumcision and 'race and intelligence', both with obvious controversy attached, made the list, alongside a possibly more surprising page: a list of professional wrestlers on the roster of World Wrestling Entertainment." |
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| title3 = Misplaced Pages wars: inside the fight against far-right editors, vandals and sock puppets |
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== a note for Ultramarine == |
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| url3 = https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/03/12/wikipedia-wars-inside-fight-against-far-right-editors-vandals-and-sock-puppets |
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| archivedate3 = March 12, 2018 |
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| quote3 = "In the article on 'race and intelligence', relatively equal weight is given to the two sides of the debate — hereditarian and environmentalist — though environmentalism is the mainstream perspective in psychology." |
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== Piffer (2015) == |
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What was wrong with the bold part of this sentence? --] 16:42, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC) |
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Piffer (2015) found differing frequencies of cognition and IQ-enhancing genes in different racial populations: |
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:Several published consensus statements agree that the large differences between the average IQ scores of Blacks and Whites cannot be attributed to biases in test construction, '''nor do they "simply reflect differences in socio-economic status" (Neisser et al., 1996).''' |
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::This statement seems exclude any kind of influence of SES which is certainly debated today. ] 16:55, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
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:::I think they merely mean to exclude simple influences of SES. Can we say that instead? By simple, I think they mean in a model w/o a race X SES interaction factor, it doesn't seem like SES; but that's not easy to summarize... which is why I was going for a quotation. --] 17:00, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC) |
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::::How about, nor can they be explained only by differences in SES. ] 17:07, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::done... ''just by simple differences'' --] 17:12, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC) |
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We need to be careful with this sentence: --] 16:42, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC) |
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:The Black-White gap is smaller in the UK than in the U.S. |
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I don't doubt that the data exists, merely that we can be certain of the interpretation presented on this blog. I suggest ''is'' --> ''may be'' unless we can find a published secondary source to make that interpretation certain. alternatively, we can do the ''some reports indicate that...'' form. |
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https://gwern.net/doc/iq/2015-piffer.pdf |
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:"Some reports indicate" is fine. ] 16:55, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
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] (]) 23:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:See ] for some well-sourced commentary on the merits of that particular publication. ] (]) 23:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Hybrid vigor == |
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::The criticism appears to be sourced to a journalistic piece in a progressive political magazine and another in a pop-sci magazine. 'Well-sourced commentary' such as this doesn't weigh heavily when it comes to a highly-regarded, peer-reviewed scientific journal. ] (]) 01:42, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::'Highly regarded' went out the window when they had white supremacists on the editorial board. ] (]) 01:51, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Even the two critical sources stated describe it as 'one of the most respected in its field' and 'a more respected psychology journal'. |
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::::If any experts in the field of intelligence research have made a case against the journal's reputation, then its reliability could be questioned. As it is we have mixed criticism from two journalists of a well regarded peer-reviewed publication. ] (]) 02:11, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Nah. We can discard a source without needing to meet your personal standard, which doesn't have any relation to Misplaced Pages's policies so far as I can tell. It is worth mentioning, though, that the ] (noted experts on racism) that spends multiple paragraphs on this specific paper and how it shouldn't be used as a source. A sample quote: {{Tq|Piffer’s credentials, affiliations and the scientific merit of the paper itself are suspect}} - ] (]) 02:54, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::Based on which Wiki policy are you discarding it as a source? It's used several times in articles related to intelligence research. |
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::::::Not than an advocacy organization's opinion really is of note when it comes to population genetics, I do note that these several SPLC paragraphs go into no more detail than to state that scientific merit of the paper itself are suspect (no reasons for this assessment or counterarguments given, at all), to question the author's credibility and to state that there are no reliable sources to dispute it. Which adds up to nothing in particular from an organisation with absolutely no standing in scientific matters. ] (]) 03:38, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::If this Piffer article is used several times, please point those usages out specifically because those definitely need to be removed. ] (]) 04:10, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::As per my original comment and your response to it, I'm referring to the journal ''Intelligence''. Which seems to have somehow achieved the status of a 'pick-and-choose' source. |
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::::::::The argument against mention of the Piffer paper, whether it's flawed research or not, requires something more than commentary from a civil rights organisation. ] (]) 04:30, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Contrary to what you might imagine, we rely on editor judgement for evaluating source reliability all the time, and Piffer is definitely a fringe source per our guideline. This would be ascertainable even without explicit debunking in a scholarly source. Some pseudo-scholars are too insignificant to draw that kind of attention. That said, that explains in no uncertain terms what is so profoundly unscientific about Piffer's methodology. No matter how you squirm, you will get nowhere with this line of argumentation. ] (]) 06:38, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::A preprint is not a fine peer-reviewed anything. |
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::::::::::Our guideline places Piffer as a fringe source based on his conclusions, or is it his associations? |
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::::::::::I'm aware that a past RFC prematurely declared the suggestion that genetics plays a role in population group IQ differences to be 'fringe' rather than merely minority. As RFCs aren't binding and consensus can change at any time, hopefully this will be rectified at some point. Though a consensus against it is emerging, the idea hasn't been conclusively refuted and research is ongoing. ] (]) 08:10, 20 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::The author of that paper is Kevin Bird. Kevin Bird also said: "The past isn't an indication of how the future behaves...I do science because I find it intellectually engaging, to be completely honest...I do it with not as much interest in attaining or discovering truth." He then said that he is "not interested in discovering truth". It is completely impossible to take a person like that seriously. And that paper's not peer reviewed. ] (]) 05:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::: has now been published by '']'', the flagship journal of the ]. It is no longer a preprint. As to your gotcha quote about "truth"... ] (]) 05:57, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::Thanks for the updated cite. But an Indiana Jones meme? What am I supposed to take away from that? ] (]) 06:24, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::That your attempt to smear Bird is thoroughly unconvincing. Also see ]. ] (]) 12:20, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::The SPLC aren't experts on genetics, and they don't cite any scientific publications in their article to critique Piffer. The closest they come is citing a non-peer-reviewed book review of a book Piffer didn't write. ] (]) 05:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::The SPLC may be experts on racism, but is there any evidence that they're experts on science? ] (]) 23:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::Correctly identifying racist pseudoscience is part of their expertise, yes. It's not like they're commenting on an article about astronomy. ] (]) 23:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::Pseudoscience is that which does not employ the scientific method. Neither the SPLC nor Bird have made such an extreme claim about the Piffer paper. Bird may have the expertise to critique the methodology employed, but anything of the sort is well beyond the SPLC's realm of expertise. ] (]) 14:42, 9 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:Please also read ] concerning the journal co-founded by Davide Piffer. ] (]) 23:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Notification about ] == |
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I've started doing a little research on hybrid vigor and my first Google hit produced an interesting illustration of what hybridizing previously isolated lineages can do. People are not maize, but maize may be food for thought. I just thought I'd pass it along: http://maizeandgenetics.tamu.edu/hybridvigor.htm |
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] 14:38, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
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I posted already on ], but would like more eyes on the discussion to provide more perspectives. |
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==Figures== |
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What software was used to draw the figures? ] 11:18, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
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:Excel. Powerpoint to color the top figure. Adobe Photoshop/Illustrator for touch-up. --] 14:43, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC) |
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Also I tried editing the article, to give it more substance, but this is not my area of expertise. Please feel free to clean it up anyway you want. ] (]) 05:20, 31 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== Deletions ex machina? == |
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== Test scores == |
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I have noticed 4 (?) cases of deletions, all since Misplaced Pages came back with new software or whatever it was they changed. That kind of thing has never happened before in the history of this discussion over the last 2-3 months. It seems always to be the po sting that follows newly inserted material that gets wiped. So I suggest that we just watch it for a while and not assume that anybody is maliciously or carelessly wiping stuff out. |
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The Test Scores section has a paragraph discussing disparities in academic achievement and math test scores in the UK, but surely those are a less reliable measurement of intelligence than general mental ability (GMA) tests, such as those discussed here?<ref>https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/1359432X.2024.2377780?needAccess=true</ref> Is there any objection to replacing this paragraph with the results from this meta-analysis of GMA tests? ] (]) 04:03, 3 August 2024 (UTC) |
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It is possible that the page has grown to such lengths that some software is choking on the memory burden. ] 29 June 2005 04:27 (UTC) |
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:There is no reason to remove the current text or the sources used, but feel free to suggest additional text sourced to for discussion here to reach consensus. How to define ''intelligence'' and what's a less or more reliable way to measure it are controversial. Many believe that ''intelligence'' includes many disparate capacities and that there cannot be a numerical value that measures general intelligence. |
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:Note that the reliability of your source is very questionable, since all three authors are closely associated with either '']'' (see also ]) or '']''. ] (]) 06:39, 3 August 2024 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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:No, there is a bug in the new upgrade software. It has been discussed on the wikien-l@wikipedia.org email list. Check after each edit to see if something has been deleted that was unintended.--] June 29, 2005 05:30 (UTC) |
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== Anyone around who can check recent edits for Richard Lynn? == |
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::SB is right. {{swtrial}} ] ] June 29, 2005 15:25 (UTC) |
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Thanks. ] ] 13:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::No personal attacks. Yes, developers are people too. ;) -] June 29, 2005 16:39 (UTC) |
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== Genome-wide association study recent changes == |
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== Unanswered questions on apparent racist method of presentation == |
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Editors who follow this page will probably take an interest in recent edits over at ]. ] (]) 21:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC) |
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Why did someone archive discussions that were active as of a few hours ago? The archiving is rather surprising considering some people kept repeating that I never provide citations but when I do they archive, damage the quality of the text or misdirect away in a myriad of different ways. Anyway, here are some unanswered questions and citations that prove there is no consensus to frame this issue exclusively in terms of race. |
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* The following article goes into some detail about my similar point that the issue is framed entirely in terms of race so everyone is constantly thinking about it exclusively in terms of race, which is exactly how a racist would want us to think. "The new 'race scientists' want us to view everything in terms of... 'race'" |
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:* The above URL is from a larger series of articles with tons of info "The current attack on black people using phony science" |
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* "Intellectual tricks can always fool those receptive to racism" |
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* "Bad Science makes for Bad Conclusions" |
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* "How Media Let The Bell Curve's Pseudo-Science Define the Agenda on Race" ]] 29 June 2005 18:42 (UTC) |
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Zenmaster, I did the archiving. It was a pretty large task, but I am sorry if I missed something that was still "live". Thank you for bringing back your considerations; I will try to be more careful in the future.] 29 June 2005 19:45 (UTC) |
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To actually answer your questions, thank you so much for providing this material. On the face of it, these things seem to be (as Rik put it) tertiary sources that discuss secondary sources (for example, ''The Bell Curve''). Note that the latter work is ''not'' the cornerstone of our little article here, in fact very few citations use material from Hernstein and Murray. Instead, most of the material in the article is based on ''primary'' sources, i.e., studies that appeared in peer-reviewed journals. It would be apt if your counterpoints exhibited a similar degree of reliability. But I will be happy to go through all of them in detail, maybe there is an observation or two that we can put in the introductory section. (You can do that yourself, if you want.) ] 29 June 2005 19:45 (UTC) |
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Piffer (2015) found differing frequencies of cognition and IQ-enhancing genes in different racial populations:
Also I tried editing the article, to give it more substance, but this is not my area of expertise. Please feel free to clean it up anyway you want. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:20, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
The Test Scores section has a paragraph discussing disparities in academic achievement and math test scores in the UK, but surely those are a less reliable measurement of intelligence than general mental ability (GMA) tests, such as those discussed here? Is there any objection to replacing this paragraph with the results from this meta-analysis of GMA tests? Stonkaments (talk) 04:03, 3 August 2024 (UTC)