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== ] - general/basic/introductory concepts ==
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__TOC__


== Request to merge "megasonic cleaning" into "ultrasonic cleaning"? ==
There have been discussions in several places on the structure of some subcategories in ]. Specifically, we are concerned with basic, general, and introductory phsysics articles. There is already a quite populated ], which probably gives a good overview of the most rudimental physics topics to the layman; so there is probably no point in changing it. During the big cleanup in May ] was created and populated by articles that were in the top level ] and didn't fit too well anywhere else. This category was then largely unpopulated and recently emptied and seems to have lost its purpose. Now there is the question whether we are actually in need of a new, similar category, which might be named ] and would group together basic (fundamental) articles, such as ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and so forth, which are now somewhat disperssed among various physics categories (please notice the difference between ''general'' and ''basic''). If there is more positive feedback for this idea, we can either rename the existing ] or delete it and create a new one. The is also an idea about making something like ], which would encompass the mathematical concepts used in physics. ] 11:28, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC) <small>Note: This is a summary of the posts found in ], ], and ].</small>


I recently joined Misplaced Pages and my first suggested edit was to ]. My guess is that this article would belong better as a subsection of the article on ]. The help article ] suggested that I draw some attention to it, since the article is a bit obscure.<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 07:55, March 30, 2024 (UTC)</small>
:I think things like tensors should be in mathematics categories, but it would be great if they would contain some physics examples. Otherwise we're going to have to make 2 articles about every applied mathematical thingy. Also because one of the things that is seriously lacking from mathematics articles is good motivation and intuition-stimulation I think we should cooperate more.--] 14:52, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)


== Notices of the American Mathematical Society article on Misplaced Pages editing. ==
::I think ] would be easily confused in purpose with ]. Since you used the word fundamental, I think that ] would be more appropriate as it makes clear that the topics aren't necessarily basic in the sense of simple.


This was posted on ] but it mostly also related to physics:
::I'm sure that physics students looking here would appreciate a ] or some such category to cluster all the things we use everyday but don't own. --] | ] 05:56, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


* {{citation|title=''Princ-wiki-a mathematica'': Misplaced Pages editing and mathematics|first1=D.|last1=Eppstein|first2=J. B.|last2=Lewis|first3=Russ|last3=Woodroofe|author4=XOR'easter|journal=Notices of the AMS|volume=72|issue=1|pages=65–73|year=2025|url=https://www.ams.org/journals/notices/202501/rnoti-p65.pdf}}. —] (]) 18:53, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Wild idea here - what if there was a ] (or something suitably similar) that contained a lot of redirects to math pages. Of course, if that happened, it would be nice if those math pages contained physical examples.--] 09:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
] (]) 19:11, 20 December 2024 (UTC)


== Good article reassessment for ] ==
:My suggestion is similar to what has been written above. We need to separate the introductory concepts, which should be accessible to a lay person, from the basic concepts, which generally are not. For example, you can talk about ]s without talking about ]s. I also think we only need two categories, ] and ]; general topics can be left on the main ] page..--] 09:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
] has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the ]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ] (]) 15:26, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


== Nomination of ] for deletion ==
::Yes, you put it very clear - the introductory topics should be differentiated from the fundamental ones. For starters, I would identify fundamental topics (looking at ]) as: ], ], ], ], ], and so on. So it seems we have a group of people that agree on this point. My mixed feelings remain only as to whether some of these articles should actually not appear in ]; after all, not much will be left... ] 21:52, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
<div class="afd-notice">
<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0;">]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article ] is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to ] or whether it should be ].


The article will be discussed at ''']''' until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
---


Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.<!-- Template:Afd notice --></div> This one was missed by Article Alerts, likely because it doesn't have a talk page. –] (]]) 23:06, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
I have just created ] and added some basic articles to it. ] June 28, 2005 17:30 (UTC)


== String of new pages onPlatonists and similar ==
---


There is a stack of pages created directly in mainspace by the new user ], all of which seem to take a particular, unconventional view and are poorly sourced.
Some time has passed, so I nominated ] for deletion. Everyone intersted please see ]. ] June 28, 2005 20:12 (UTC)
# ]
# ]
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# ]
I have tagged a couple for notability because at the very least the sourcing is weak and does not convince me that ] is satisfied; I always prefer to give editors a chance to improve versions. Before doing anything else (e.g. draftify, PROD, AfD) I would be interested to get feedback. Perhaps even someone(s) would help improve those pages if they are reputable topics. (Or this philosophy has been seen on Misplaced Pages before...) ] (]) 12:22, 28 December 2024 (UTC)


:Can you elaborate on how explaining a well established Philisophy of Mathematics is not in alignment with Misplaced Pages policy? You attack the view as “unconvential” which suggest personal bias rather than any objective metric. Additonally the sources are fine and each member of the list already has established Notability. Your argument seems to boil down to “I neither like nor understand Platonism therefore it shouldnt be included on the site” ] (]) 12:28, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
== World Year of Physics ==
::The issue is not that ] isn't notable, it's that your article ] doesn't say anything about it, it just copies material from their articles. It's a synthetic intersection of otherwise notable topics to make a list article about, as there aren't sufficient sources discussing the Platonism of those figures in specific being cited. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 12:41, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Ah I see makes sense thank you, but arent list pages also valid Misplaced Pages pages? I see a lot of them ] (]) 12:44, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Yes, list articles are valid, and like other Misplaced Pages pages there are rules and guidelines for when and how to create them. You can read more about list articles at ]. The notability requirement for list articles is at ]. If I'm reading it right, it says that to create a list of Platonist mathematicians, you need to provide a ] that discusses Platonist mathematicians, to establish that the concept of the list is notable. --] (]) 17:07, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I see thank you for this guidance ] (]) 17:09, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
::::The article "List of Platonist Mathematicians" is not notable because there are no sources use such a list, see ]. The article is not correctly formatted as a list. It looks like a normal article. It should be renamed eg "Platonism in Mathematics". (Most of its content will be deleted unless it has better sourcing) ] (]) 17:10, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::An article might be more interesting and useful than a list of Platonist mathematicians, anyway. ] might be a better title, but we would need help moving the article there over the redirect.--] (]) 17:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Would a category be more appropriate? I find it is hard to discover mathematcicians with verified views on this topic ] (]) 17:20, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::These look like a decent start:
:::::::* {{cite SEP|url-id=philosophy-mathematics |title=Philosophy of Mathematics |date=2022-01-25 |first=Leon |last=Horsten}}
:::::::* {{cite SEP|url-id=platonism-mathematics |title=Platonism in the Philosophy of Mathematics |date=2023-03-28 |first=Øystein |last=Linnebo}}
:::::::* {{cite web|first=Julian C. |last=Cole |title=Mathematical Platonism |url=https://iep.utm.edu/mathplat/ |website=]}}
:::::::] (]) 04:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::We could definitely use an article on mathematical Platonism. It is a notable subtopic of the ], and one we don't already have an article on. Tagging individual mathematicians as Platonists, whether in a list or in a category, is not a helpful way of achieving that goal, and would require a clear public statement of mathematical philosophy from each mathematician listed. We are unlikely to find such a statement for most mathematicians, in large part because most mathematicians are not philosophers of mathematics. —] (]) 20:10, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::I think there is consensus here to change the name of "List of Platonist mathematicians" -> "Mathematical Platonism" (capital because Plato?) and encourage @] to use the refs added by XOR'easter to alter the content to match that topic. ] (]) 01:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::There is a redirect at ] so we are out of luck on the move. ] (]) 01:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:An article on Wolfram's "ruliad" was ]. We don't need another one. The sourcing on the new one is unacceptable: writings by Wolfram himself are ], which we shouldn't use; postings on the ] are almost always unusable per ], and a book from 2014 can't contribute to the notability of a topic invented years after that. A literature search finds nothing better. (Unsurprisingly.) I have accordingly proposed ] for deletion. ] (]) 04:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
::@], since your PROD of ] was contested (i.e. deleted without explanation) I am going to shift to ] where I have placed a request for a {{Tlx|TempUndelete}} of the deleted earlier version so I and others can better judge how to proceed. (Of course you can just go straight to an AfD.) ] (]) 12:10, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
:::]. ] (]) 19:05, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
:] and ] must be deleted at least per ]. Indeed for having such lists one needs either mathematicians or physicists that qualify themselves as Platonists, or a neutral authority that provides such a qualification. Here, we do not know who qualified these people as Platonists. So, one must consider that this qualification is a ] of a unknown philosopher or the editor who wrote this article. This goes against the fundamental policies of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 21:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
:Based upon the input here (thanks to everyone), i just put PRODs on both list pages. If these are contested then I will do AfDs.
:For reference, ] now has an AfD, the appropriateness of ] is being debated (independent of this discussion) while ] has been reviewed as appropriate for Misplaced Pages. This topic is probably "done". ] (]) 21:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
::Both PRODs were contested with a statement that "concensus was not reached" so both lists now have AfDs. ] (]) 22:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
::I am not convinced that ] meets the notability standards for ] or ]. One book generally isn't enough. ] (]) 23:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I don't do biographies much but I would have figured there's an argument for Bessis for ]#C1 -- his papers ''The dual braid monoid'' and ''Finite complex reflection arrangements are <math>K(\pi, 1)</math>'' have both been very influential. (Obviously now this is moot, but I would probably have voted to keep at an AfD.) --] (]) 22:31, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
:In case you wonder why all the pages in question here are now red, they were created by a banned sock puppet so have been (admin) deleted. ] (]) 02:33, 30 December 2024 (UTC)


== invitation to comment: we ought to correct the “thermodynamic deception” ==
I suppose I finally have an appropriate place to ask people to look at ]. I had originally thought it'd be a great idea to have it up to featured standard by the end of the year, but it hasn't really attracted any other editors recently and I feel like without feedback of other editors I may have taken it in a wrong direction (right now it mostly summarizes ]). So take a look if you're interested. --] | ] 15:21, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
{{atop|reason=] as unsuitable. ] (]) 04:23, 8 January 2025 (UTC)}}
I submit this invitation to comment pursuant to suggestion (=OxF= another) on the talk:thermodynamics page.


I suggest<ref>”The single all-encompassing problem of thermodynamics is the determination of the equilibrium state that eventually results after the removal of internal constraints in a closed, composite system” p.26, “Thermodynamics and an introduction to thermostatistics,” Herbert B. Callen, 2nd edition</ref> this alternative at this time:
== The list of articles that attract crank edits ==


govern --> still--> constrain, but we add (revamped with Callen) instead:
As there were voices that ] is unsuitable in the article namespace, I've moved the physics section to the subpage ]. --] 15:08, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)


As “thermodynamics” is a famous misnomer (thermostatics),<ref>” As useful as the characterization of equilibrium states by thermostatic theory has proven to be, it must be conceded that our primary interest is frequently in processes rather than in states. In biology, particularly, it is the life process that captures our imagination, rather than the eventual equilibrium state to which each organism inevitably proceeds. Thermostatics does provide two methods that permit us to infer some limited information about processes, but each of these methods is indirect and each yields only the most meager return.” p.307, “Thermodynamics and an introduction to thermostatistics,” Herbert B. Callen, 2nd edition</ref> it is worth noting out front here that thermodynamics/thermostatics is a ''conceptual framework'' to which reality significantly conforms,<ref>“The choice is between these calculations and no calculations at all. Results for reversible processes in combination with appropriate efficiencies yield reasonable approximations of the work for actual processes.” p.40, “Introduction to Chemical Engineering Thermodynamics,” J.M. Smith, H.C. VanNess, M.M. Abbott, 5th edition </ref> though “quite different” <ref>“Thermodynamics is quite different.” p.2, “Thermodynamics and an introduction to thermostatistics,” Herbert B. Callen, 2nd edition</ref> from relativity and quantum mechanics- “in the sense that thermodynamics does not predict specific numerical values for observable quantities. Instead, thermodynamics sets limits (inequalities) on permissible physical processes, and it establishes relationships among apparently unrelated properties.”<ref>p.3, “Thermodynamics and an introduction to thermostatistics,” Herbert B. Callen, 2nd edition</ref>
:That list is not exclusively about bogus physics theories. Even if it was I wouldn't want it associated with physics in any way. Please remove that again. The physics portal is not the place for it. --] 17:49, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


This is not at all controversial, so there should be no fatal objection. This is not at all controversial, so Misplaced Pages is in a superb position to disseminate the cure. This is not at all controversial, so we Could usher in a world-wide, first-order, phase-transition of Wisdom- in the =x= pr%c3$$ (see ]).
:<s>Yes, please remove this list. Above all, WikiProjects are not intended to host subject articles, including original research. ] 18:56, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)</s>


Personally yours,
::Ugh. multiple problems with this list. 1) some of the theories are pure crackpot, e.g. timecube. 2) some of the topics are highly speculative but academically acceptable (possible changes in fine structure const, etc.) 3) some topics which are records of historical fiascos (]) or were once taken seriously but are not any more (]). ] 19:56, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


] (]) 02:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) ] (]) 02:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:::Of course, most of these theories are pure crackpot. For this reason, they are on the list. And the list is here, so that we can watch, what's going on there. Isn't the task of WikiProject Physics to ensure the correct presentation of physics in Misplaced Pages? --] 20:10, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)


:I edited your post to remove hidden external links. ] (]) 02:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:::And BTW, ] is leaking out of its article. I've just spotted it in ]. What's your opinion on that? --]
::(We are all worse for it* and) you are responsible
::https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Physics&diff=prev&oldid=1268081945
::Consolations for the notice though,
::] (]) 02:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)


{{reflisttalk}}
:::: I think that it would be desirable for part of the wikiproj to be helping keep dodgy psuedoscience in check. So if the list could be restructured to contain *only* the wacko psuedoscience, and a suitable header put on, would that be OK? ] 21:20, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC).
'''Strong oppose'''. The above was never suggested on ], it is appearing in the above form here for the first time. This is ] and ] from an editor with unconventional views, the most recent being an attempt to redefine thermodynamics as fake and use Misplaced Pages as a ] for their unconventional science. ] (]) 02:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC)


:Bro, this is what thermodynamics is; stop and smell the flowers (reversibly, ideally!)
::: The way you guys put it makes it sound reasonable :) that is to have such a repository for monitoring pseudophysics topics. ] 23:41, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
:] (]) 02:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
'''Oppose''' as ]. ] (]) 03:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC).


'''Ignore''' This is just a troll. ] (]) 04:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
:The list should be split into the different categories that linas identified. List 1) shouldn't be part of this project. What we need to keep in check is what is supposed to be physics and what is not. The other two lists would be very welcome. --] 10:34, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== How many timelines of the universe we need? ==
I misunderstood the purpose of the list. Lets change the name to '''The list of articles that attract crank edits'''. This is a list of (mostly) legit articles on (mostly) noteworthy topics, (most of which happen to be noteworthy ''crank'' topics), that, unfortunately, tend to get vandalized in subtle ways. The name change would completely resolve my initial discomfort on reading the list. We can add ] and ] to the list. We can add legit science topics to the list, if they happen to be topics that attract inappropriate attention and edits. ] 1 July 2005 00:39 (UTC)


I just stumbled with the issue of the merges and moves of timeline of the universe article. If we include ], there are at least 3 articles on the timeline of the universe, see ]. I do not see why we need so many versions of it. ] is itself a compilation of sections, where each section is a timeline of the universe. I think this should be reduced to a single detailed timeline and a chronology of the universe article that has two sections, the first discussing an overview and the second section detailing the different epochs. Such a merge requires some coordinate editing which I am do not know if it is feasible. ] (]) 11:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Yikes! Surely what you understood when you read what I wrote can't possibly be what I meant when I wrote it?? We can add ] and the entire ]; some of these articles are already subjects of long-running edit battles; note even ] is an active editor. ] 1 July 2005 01:21 (UTC)


:Some observations:
== 1941 Reich-Einstein experiment ==
:* Most of ] is a series of summaries of detailed articles on each era/epoch. This serves as a route to a detailed reading. The rest of the article is a hodge-podge, including a compact version and a tabular version of itself.
:* ] is really ]. Conceptually it could be a compact version of ] but in practice is incomplete, poorly sourced and chock-a-block with cruft.
:* ] a disambiguation page.
:* ] a redirect to the disambiguation page.
:* ] has two versions of a double log graph with two columns. One reference. I think this one should be deleted.
:* ] compact one page, log-scale timeline. One website source. The log scale is not helpful because it focuses attention on that part of the timeline that we know the least about. The single-page overview is helpful.
:* ] no sources, also not what it claims to be. Delete.
:* ] Timeline scaled onto a day. Poorly sourced but otherwise nice, an independent concept. Maybe to add a few entries to the Cosmology table.
:* The articles named "Graphical" use a markup feature called <code><nowiki><timeline></nowiki></code>, but not (of course!) the ones named "Timeline".
:* ] Wow. 236 references. Here is a quote: "Earliest known twisted rope." No source ;-)
:* ] Basically two sections called Lists which are actually tables.
:* ] An article that wraps around a text-based timeline of the far future.
:* ] compact graphic used on many pages. Fairly effective.
:My suggestion:
:* Delete a couple of the Graphical pages that are unsalvageable.
:* Cut down ] to one or two pages, link into Chronology, and rename it ]].
:* Cleanup ] into a summary of the cosmogenesis articles. Maybe transclude "Timeline of the early universe"
:] (]) 17:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
::I'd say we should delete all three "graphical timeline" pages. ] is, at best, an image description page like you'd see on Wikimedia Commons. It's not an encyclopedia article. The image itself is not great, either (the very top line has two labels printed on top of each other, for example). Presenting all that information as text ''inside images'' is bad for accessibility and gets in the way of editors modifying it. {{pb}} I tried to clean up ] a bit. I pruned a lot on ] grounds (it's not our job to pick which events to list and do all the calculations ourselves). My first thought was to selectively merge it somewhere, but there's no uniquely good merge target, since one book and two TV series have equally good claims to it. ] (]) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
::The best use of editor time is, I think, cleaning up and reorganizing ]. It gets more pageviews than ] by about a factor of 5. It's significantly under-cited. ] (]) 00:16, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
::I also agree with the deletion of graphical timelines. --] (]) 08:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
::I would also propose deleting the logarithmic timeline. It sabotages itself by aiming for an overwhelming scope (and declares that itself somewhat bombastically: ''This timeline shows the whole history of the universe, the Earth, and mankind in one table.''), it is redundant against other timeline articles, and there doesn't seem to be much of a practical reason to include a log timeline other than novelty. Modern/contemporary sections list massive, poorly-organized blocks of world events that arguably go against ]. ]] (it/its) 22:47, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
:Discussion now happening at ]. ] (]) 22:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC)


== FAR for ] ==
Has anybody a reference and quote what Einstein said about the ]? Reich's view and those of the "over unity researchers" are already presented. --] June 30, 2005 08:19 (UTC)


I have nominated ] for a ]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the ]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are ]. 🍕]🍕 (]) 03:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
:There are only 4 google hits in this regard.--] 30 June 2005 13:56 (UTC)

:Can we close ] for ] first? ] (]) 04:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
::I agree: what is the status of White dwarf? ] (]) 16:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
::I suggest voting at ] as Keep/Delist etc. ] (]) 16:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 16:54, 14 January 2025

WikiProject Physics
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Request to merge "megasonic cleaning" into "ultrasonic cleaning"?

I recently joined Misplaced Pages and my first suggested edit was to Megasonic cleaning. My guess is that this article would belong better as a subsection of the article on Ultrasonic cleaning. The help article Help:Introduction_to_talk_pages/All suggested that I draw some attention to it, since the article is a bit obscure.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielittlewood (talk • contribs) 07:55, March 30, 2024 (UTC)

Notices of the American Mathematical Society article on Misplaced Pages editing.

This was posted on WT:MATH but it mostly also related to physics:

Johnjbarton (talk) 19:11, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Fizeau experiment

Fizeau experiment has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 15:26, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of Gravitomagnetic for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Gravitomagnetic is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gravitomagnetic until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

This one was missed by Article Alerts, likely because it doesn't have a talk page. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 23:06, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

String of new pages onPlatonists and similar

There is a stack of pages created directly in mainspace by the new user Transhumanistnerd0, all of which seem to take a particular, unconventional view and are poorly sourced.

  1. List of Platonist Mathematicians
  2. List of Platonist Physicists
  3. Ruliad Theory of the Universe
  4. David Bessis
  5. Wenitte Apiou

I have tagged a couple for notability because at the very least the sourcing is weak and does not convince me that WP:BURDEN is satisfied; I always prefer to give editors a chance to improve versions. Before doing anything else (e.g. draftify, PROD, AfD) I would be interested to get feedback. Perhaps even someone(s) would help improve those pages if they are reputable topics. (Or this philosophy has been seen on Misplaced Pages before...) Ldm1954 (talk) 12:22, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on how explaining a well established Philisophy of Mathematics is not in alignment with Misplaced Pages policy? You attack the view as “unconvential” which suggest personal bias rather than any objective metric. Additonally the sources are fine and each member of the list already has established Notability. Your argument seems to boil down to “I neither like nor understand Platonism therefore it shouldnt be included on the site” Transhumanistnerd0 (talk) 12:28, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
The issue is not that Platonism isn't notable, it's that your article List of Platonist Mathematicians doesn't say anything about it, it just copies material from their articles. It's a synthetic intersection of otherwise notable topics to make a list article about, as there aren't sufficient sources discussing the Platonism of those figures in specific being cited. Remsense ‥ 论 12:41, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Ah I see makes sense thank you, but arent list pages also valid Misplaced Pages pages? I see a lot of them Transhumanistnerd0 (talk) 12:44, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Yes, list articles are valid, and like other Misplaced Pages pages there are rules and guidelines for when and how to create them. You can read more about list articles at Misplaced Pages:Stand-alone lists. The notability requirement for list articles is at WP:NLIST. If I'm reading it right, it says that to create a list of Platonist mathematicians, you need to provide a reliable source that discusses Platonist mathematicians, to establish that the concept of the list is notable. --Srleffler (talk) 17:07, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
I see thank you for this guidance Transhumanistnerd0 (talk) 17:09, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
The article "List of Platonist Mathematicians" is not notable because there are no sources use such a list, see Misplaced Pages:Stand-alone lists. The article is not correctly formatted as a list. It looks like a normal article. It should be renamed eg "Platonism in Mathematics". (Most of its content will be deleted unless it has better sourcing) Johnjbarton (talk) 17:10, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
An article might be more interesting and useful than a list of Platonist mathematicians, anyway. Mathematical Platonism might be a better title, but we would need help moving the article there over the redirect.--Srleffler (talk) 17:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Would a category be more appropriate? I find it is hard to discover mathematcicians with verified views on this topic Transhumanistnerd0 (talk) 17:20, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
These look like a decent start:
XOR'easter (talk) 04:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
We could definitely use an article on mathematical Platonism. It is a notable subtopic of the philosophy of mathematics, and one we don't already have an article on. Tagging individual mathematicians as Platonists, whether in a list or in a category, is not a helpful way of achieving that goal, and would require a clear public statement of mathematical philosophy from each mathematician listed. We are unlikely to find such a statement for most mathematicians, in large part because most mathematicians are not philosophers of mathematics. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:10, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
I think there is consensus here to change the name of "List of Platonist mathematicians" -> "Mathematical Platonism" (capital because Plato?) and encourage @Transhumanistnerd0 to use the refs added by XOR'easter to alter the content to match that topic. Johnjbarton (talk) 01:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
There is a redirect at Mathematical Platonism so we are out of luck on the move. Johnjbarton (talk) 01:19, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
An article on Wolfram's "ruliad" was deleted back in April. We don't need another one. The sourcing on the new one is unacceptable: writings by Wolfram himself are primary sources, which we shouldn't use; postings on the arXiv are almost always unusable per WP:SPS, and a book from 2014 can't contribute to the notability of a topic invented years after that. A literature search finds nothing better. (Unsurprisingly.) I have accordingly proposed Ruliad Theory of the Universe for deletion. XOR'easter (talk) 04:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
@XOR'easter, since your PROD of Ruliad Theory of the Universe was contested (i.e. deleted without explanation) I am going to shift to Talk:Ruliad Theory of the Universe where I have placed a request for a {{TempUndelete}} of the deleted earlier version so I and others can better judge how to proceed. (Of course you can just go straight to an AfD.) Ldm1954 (talk) 12:10, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Done. XOR'easter (talk) 19:05, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
List of Platonist mathematicians and List of Platonist physicists must be deleted at least per WP:NPOV. Indeed for having such lists one needs either mathematicians or physicists that qualify themselves as Platonists, or a neutral authority that provides such a qualification. Here, we do not know who qualified these people as Platonists. So, one must consider that this qualification is a WP:POV of a unknown philosopher or the editor who wrote this article. This goes against the fundamental policies of Misplaced Pages. D.Lazard (talk) 21:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Based upon the input here (thanks to everyone), i just put PRODs on both list pages. If these are contested then I will do AfDs.
For reference, Ruliad Theory of the Universe now has an AfD, the appropriateness of Wenitte Apiou is being debated (independent of this discussion) while David Bessis has been reviewed as appropriate for Misplaced Pages. This topic is probably "done". Ldm1954 (talk) 21:45, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Both PRODs were contested with a statement that "concensus was not reached" so both lists now have AfDs. Ldm1954 (talk) 22:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
I am not convinced that David Bessis meets the notability standards for academics or authors. One book generally isn't enough. XOR'easter (talk) 23:53, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
I don't do biographies much but I would have figured there's an argument for Bessis for WP:NPROF#C1 -- his papers The dual braid monoid and Finite complex reflection arrangements are K ( π , 1 ) {\displaystyle K(\pi ,1)} have both been very influential. (Obviously now this is moot, but I would probably have voted to keep at an AfD.) --JBL (talk) 22:31, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
In case you wonder why all the pages in question here are now red, they were created by a banned sock puppet so have been (admin) deleted. Ldm1954 (talk) 02:33, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

invitation to comment: we ought to correct the “thermodynamic deception”

Snow closing as unsuitable. XOR'easter (talk) 04:23, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I submit this invitation to comment pursuant to this suggestion (=OxF= another) on the talk:thermodynamics page.

I suggest this alternative at this time:

govern --> still--> constrain, but we add (revamped with Callen) instead:

As “thermodynamics” is a famous misnomer (thermostatics), it is worth noting out front here that thermodynamics/thermostatics is a conceptual framework to which reality significantly conforms, though “quite different” from relativity and quantum mechanics- “in the sense that thermodynamics does not predict specific numerical values for observable quantities. Instead, thermodynamics sets limits (inequalities) on permissible physical processes, and it establishes relationships among apparently unrelated properties.”

This is not at all controversial, so there should be no fatal objection. This is not at all controversial, so Misplaced Pages is in a superb position to disseminate the cure. This is not at all controversial, so we Could usher in a world-wide, first-order, phase-transition of Wisdom- in the =x= pr%c3$$ (see mutual-uncertainty mediated, co-thermostatic systemics).

Personally yours,

NedBoomerson (talk) 02:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) NedBoomerson (talk) 02:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I edited your post to remove hidden external links. Johnjbarton (talk) 02:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
(We are all worse for it* and) you are responsible
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Physics&diff=prev&oldid=1268081945
Consolations for the notice though,
NedBoomerson (talk) 02:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

References

  1. ”The single all-encompassing problem of thermodynamics is the determination of the equilibrium state that eventually results after the removal of internal constraints in a closed, composite system” p.26, “Thermodynamics and an introduction to thermostatistics,” Herbert B. Callen, 2nd edition
  2. ” As useful as the characterization of equilibrium states by thermostatic theory has proven to be, it must be conceded that our primary interest is frequently in processes rather than in states. In biology, particularly, it is the life process that captures our imagination, rather than the eventual equilibrium state to which each organism inevitably proceeds. Thermostatics does provide two methods that permit us to infer some limited information about processes, but each of these methods is indirect and each yields only the most meager return.” p.307, “Thermodynamics and an introduction to thermostatistics,” Herbert B. Callen, 2nd edition
  3. “The choice is between these calculations and no calculations at all. Results for reversible processes in combination with appropriate efficiencies yield reasonable approximations of the work for actual processes.” p.40, “Introduction to Chemical Engineering Thermodynamics,” J.M. Smith, H.C. VanNess, M.M. Abbott, 5th edition
  4. “Thermodynamics is quite different.” p.2, “Thermodynamics and an introduction to thermostatistics,” Herbert B. Callen, 2nd edition
  5. p.3, “Thermodynamics and an introduction to thermostatistics,” Herbert B. Callen, 2nd edition

Strong oppose. The above was never suggested on Talk:Thermodynamics, it is appearing in the above form here for the first time. This is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH from an editor with unconventional views, the most recent being an attempt to redefine thermodynamics as fake and use Misplaced Pages as a bully pulpit for their unconventional science. Ldm1954 (talk) 02:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Bro, this is what thermodynamics is; stop and smell the flowers (reversibly, ideally!)
NedBoomerson (talk) 02:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose as WP:SYNTH. Xxanthippe (talk) 03:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC).

Ignore This is just a troll. Johnjbarton (talk) 04:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

How many timelines of the universe we need?

I just stumbled with the issue of the merges and moves of timeline of the universe article. If we include chronology of the universe, there are at least 3 articles on the timeline of the universe, see Timeline of the universe. I do not see why we need so many versions of it. Chronology of the universe is itself a compilation of sections, where each section is a timeline of the universe. I think this should be reduced to a single detailed timeline and a chronology of the universe article that has two sections, the first discussing an overview and the second section detailing the different epochs. Such a merge requires some coordinate editing which I am do not know if it is feasible. ReyHahn (talk) 11:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Some observations:
My suggestion:
Johnjbarton (talk) 17:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
I'd say we should delete all three "graphical timeline" pages. Graphical timeline of the Big Bang is, at best, an image description page like you'd see on Wikimedia Commons. It's not an encyclopedia article. The image itself is not great, either (the very top line has two labels printed on top of each other, for example). Presenting all that information as text inside images is bad for accessibility and gets in the way of editors modifying it. I tried to clean up Cosmic Calendar a bit. I pruned a lot on synthesis grounds (it's not our job to pick which events to list and do all the calculations ourselves). My first thought was to selectively merge it somewhere, but there's no uniquely good merge target, since one book and two TV series have equally good claims to it. XOR'easter (talk) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
The best use of editor time is, I think, cleaning up and reorganizing Chronology of the universe. It gets more pageviews than Timeline of the early universe by about a factor of 5. It's significantly under-cited. XOR'easter (talk) 00:16, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
I also agree with the deletion of graphical timelines. --ReyHahn (talk) 08:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
I would also propose deleting the logarithmic timeline. It sabotages itself by aiming for an overwhelming scope (and declares that itself somewhat bombastically: This timeline shows the whole history of the universe, the Earth, and mankind in one table.), it is redundant against other timeline articles, and there doesn't seem to be much of a practical reason to include a log timeline other than novelty. Modern/contemporary sections list massive, poorly-organized blocks of world events that arguably go against WP:NOTDB. ArkHyena (it/its) 22:47, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Discussion now happening at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Graphical timeline from the Big Bang to the heat death of the universe. XOR'easter (talk) 22:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

FAR for Hydrogen

I have nominated Hydrogen for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 03:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Can we close the FAR for White dwarf first? XOR'easter (talk) 04:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I agree: what is the status of White dwarf? Johnjbarton (talk) 16:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I suggest voting at WP:Featured_article_review/White_dwarf/archive1 as Keep/Delist etc. Ldm1954 (talk) 16:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
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