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Revision as of 10:32, 21 December 2007 editJeffpw (talk \| contribs)9,574 edits →why is this protected?: added NPOV tag← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 20:16, 8 January 2025 edit undoMrOllie (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers237,667 editsm Reverted 1 edit by Ihaveceilinghacks (talk) to last revision by MichaelMaggsTags: Twinkle Undo
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			{{Backwards copy
			\| author = Surhone, L. M.
			\| year = 2010
			\| title = Sinterklaas: Netherlands Antilles, Santa Claus, culture of Belgium
			\| org = Betascript Publishing
			\| comments = Surhone 2010 identifiers: {{OCLC\|727199984}}, {{ISBN\|9786130963446}}.
			\| bot = LivingBot
			\| title2 = A Month of Christmas: Santa’s Home & Workshop
			\| date2 = 11 December 2018
			\| author2 = Jochim, Mark Joseph
			\| url2 = https://stampaday.wordpress.com/2018/12/11/a-month-of-christmas-santas-home-workshop/
			\| org2 = A Stamp A Day
			}}
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			{{top 25 report\|December 15, 2013\|December 22, 2013\|December 21, 2014}}

			==Did you know nomination==
	==Semiprotected==
			{{Template:Did you know nominations/Philadelphia Eagles}}
	Per request, the article is now ]. ] \| ] 19:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC).
	:thanks for that,Bishonen. :) I have just replaced the agreed-upon Lead, but could someone check that the references have been replaced accurately. I cannot seem to find the one about the flying reindeer and whatnot. - ] ] 19:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

	== ~~Instruction creep~~ ==		== New-Amsterdam? ==

			The article mentions that the current image of Santa Claus is based on these 19th century Dutch immigrants coming to ''New Amsterdam''. Besides the lack of any citation, New Amsterdam became New York after the second Anglo-Dutch war, in which the Dutch traded their colony for Surinam. After that, the colony became known as New York. So, why is this mentioned? ] (]) 20:51, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
	Just because the page was briefly locked due to a dispute over one word, doesn't mean the entire lead is set in stone. This edit violates ]. -- ]<sup>]</sup> 20:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
	:You're good at ] but in the end, your changes are unhelpful, go against consensus, are not in the spirit of the ] guideline, and generally look ridiculous. --<font color="#0000C0">David</font> ''']''' 20:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
	::It's still instruction creep. I don't believe there's an actual pressing need to exempt the lead from the standard ] cycle. -- ]<sup>]</sup> 20:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

			:Encyclopedia Brittanica:
	:Maybe respect the fact that we are concerned about it, and respect it. If my instructions get people to discuss their edits rather than edit-warring, then the article is served, and jolly good for me. If you disagreed with the article discussion, you had ''ample'' opportunity to speak up then. And yet, once the article is unlocked, you voice your displeasure by tagging the parts of the lead that we've spend the last 10 sections discussing. I'm trying ''real'' hard to assume good faith here, but these seem to be the actions of ] willing to defer to consensus. - ] ] 22:06, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
			:https://www.britannica.com/topic/Santa-Claus
	::I do appreciate that, but at no point was there any discussion above implying some special rule was going to commented into the article to bypass the ] cycle. We still have all the standard tools to prevent edit warring at our disposal. -- ]<sup>]</sup> 14:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
			:{{tq\|The Dutch are credited with transporting the legend of Saint Nicholas (Sinterklaas) to New Amsterdam (now New York City)}} ] (]) 22:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

			== Misplaced Pages is not censored for this article? ==
	==WP:LEAD does not trump WP:AWW==
	Y'all need to provide more sources if you are going to make glaring generalizations like are going on in the fourth paragraph. -- ]<sup>]</sup> 20:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
	:OK, I'll just tag this until this is sorted out. There's no point in hiding certain facts, like that criticism began with 16th century protestant groups; that's exactly what the article goes on to say. -- ]<sup>]</sup> 20:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
	::First, style issues are not NPOV issues, so you have mis-tagged the page and there are AWW templates. I suggest you remove the NPOV template. Second, there is a consensus version of this lead that you are edit-warring against. Third, ] refers to the body of the article, where as the ] discusses what is a broad overview of the article, not the specifics. Everything else in the lead is not specific, there are no sources for the legends, or what they say, or who says they say that. I have already alerted Bishonen about your edit-warring an incorrect arguments (against consensus); if you do not remove the improper template then I will bring it up to the admin board. --<font color="#0000C0">David</font> ''']''' 21:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
	:::Ugh, are you like this every time you have a content dispute? I added AWW templates, and you reverted them. My problem is the paragraph is overgeneralizing beyond what the rest of the article says. In the first sentence, it takes no more typing to explain that the article contains information about post-16th century Protestant groups, rather than to say "some Christians for a long time." The next two sentences using one person's opinion on ] to make sweeping generalizations not even expanded upon in the article. I suppose upon review the sentence about commercialization could stand as it is though; my apologies there. -- ]<sup>]</sup> 21:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
	::::If you had a problem with this, you should have brought it up LOOOONG before this. It isn't weren't presented multiple opportunities to make suggestions. We came to consensus about what version was to go in. Did you comment? No. Instead, you wait until the article is unlocked - on my word that the issues were resolved (as you hadn't bothered to pipe up) and then start tagging things. You made me look like a liar, so if it sounds like I'm a tad pissed at you, then you are interpreting my mood precisely. It is your responsibility to voice your issues and seek a consensus for your opinion. If you don't get a consensus, you defer to the consensus that is in place. Ifd you think the consensus is in defiance of rules or guidelines, you file an RfC. You ''do not'' disrupt the article to make your displeasure known. Most incredibly uncool, Kendrick. - ] ] 22:12, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
	:::::I guess I wasn't paying that much attention. I had thought the article was locked because of a dispute over the first sentence, which I'm happy to leave alone. I didn't realize what was actually occurring was some attempt by you and David to ] the entire lead. I simply think the fourth paragraph needs work. I hope we can reach some common ground here. -- ]<sup>]</sup> 14:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

			I don't get it, in one of the templates for the talk page it says "Misplaced Pages is not censored" What is not censored for this article? ] (]) 13:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Ignoring your clumsy personal attack, Kendrick, you might have missed that the article was locked for the destabilizing edit-warring in the article (of which you were a part). You might have seen the resulting tag at the top, noting that the article was locked until 'disputes had been resolved'. This means, when the article is unlocked, you don't return to the same behavior that prompted the article being locked to begin with..
	::::::This isn't my article, or Shankbone's or yours or anyone else's. Its ''our'' article. Which means it should be a ''community'' effort that follows the confines of wiki policy. Considering how sharply divided we are on some of the issues, its seems clear (to me at least) that editing by consensus seems to be the way to go. It seemed to work really well for the resolution of the 'historical, legendary and mythical' descriptors, and for other issues as well that had been fought over for months. I am firmly convinced that using the discussion page as a tool to iron out a consensus edit is the best way to go where notable contention exists.
	::::::If you have an issue that you think is going to be contentious (to others), please afford us the opportunity to either confirm that for you, or to note that it isn't an argued point. That is what helps us find the common ground you seek. I don't think that that is too much to ask of you. - ] ] 15:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

			:It means what it says: Misplaced Pages is not censored. It's not just on this article, too, it's all across the entire wiki. ] (]) 18:27, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
	== Santa Is Real ==
			::Usually, censorship inquiries are about ] ("NSFW") content. Someone might ask, for example, why there is a photo of two real naked adults at ], instead of just drawings.
			::In this case, the application "not censored" means: This article will not tell your kids that Santa is real, or even make it sound like Santa might be real. Parents who wish otherwise might want to read ]. The second paragraph has statistics on age-appropriate beliefs. ] (]) 03:37, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Then again, ] puts the "naughty" in "naughty or nice". ] (]) 03:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::]... ] (]) 01:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

			== Santa is not Odin ==
	This is suported by two siple facts he can be tracked and he is definaly real. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

	== why is this protected? ==
			This is a pop culture idea that has become very popular in neopagan circles despite the history and evolution of Saint Nicholas to Santa Claus being well attested. The source used in the article currently is Margaret Baker, an author who wrote some books on magical gardening and such with no academic credentials I can find, which I don't believe to be appropriate. Here's articles by actual academics on the subject all stating that this idea is modern and inaccurate.
	This is not Christmas spirit. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

	==The "Santa as lie" section==

	I vave thagged this with a NPOV tag, as it only presents one side of the discussion. It does not address the fact that some feel it is not a lie, and others who may feel it is, but feel that there is a positive aspect to telling the Santa story to kids. Please address these concerns before the tag is removed. Thanks in advance, ] (]) 10:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

			Odin Isn't Santa Claus - Youtube video by Dr. Jackson Crawford

			] (]) 16:35, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

			:I spent a couple of minutes looking for a source, and found this:
			:"Meanwhile in England, where he was known as Old Father Christmas – no doubt inspired by the Scandinavian god Odin – Santa Claus was often dressed in green, and wore a holly crown over his head. That pagan figure appeared in numerous Victorian images."
			:in Prah-Perrochon, Anne. 2015. “The Invention of Santa Claus.” ''France-Amérique'' 8 (12): 32–41.
			:That adds a layer of complexity. St Nicholas doesn't descend from Odin, but Old Father Christmas might, and if Old Father Christmas was grafted on top of St Nicholas to produce "Santa", then there would be some connection there. I think this is going to require more time looking for scholarly sources. ] (]) 05:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
			::The words "no doubt" are doing a lot of heavy lifting there. There is to my knowledge no historical evidence of that whatsoever, in spite of popular belief to the contrary. Old Father Christmas was not a "pagan figure" – he was, as the name suggests, a personification of Christmas. Read the first two or three sections of ] (I wrote them, relying on proper scholarly sources such as ]). ] (]) 09:48, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
			::May also be of interest: an editor wishes to add to ] an assertion that "The original mythical gift-giver portrayed as riding a reindeer-pulled sleigh was probably the Finnish god ]." See ]. ] (]) 11:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::@], having thought about this for a very small number of minutes, I've come to a conclusion: If you think anything in this article is wrong, I'd be happy to have you remove it (or tag it, if you think it's redeemable). ] (]) 05:58, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::I've been thinking about tackling this article for several years, but have always been discouraged by the time it would take. There's just so much to do. ] (]) 15:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::True, but perhaps just fixing up the ] or ] sections would feel more manageable? ] (]) 20:10, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

			== Christmas Eve Gift for Santa ==

			In New Zealand today we do not leave sherry/beer/mince pies. We are firmly in the milk and cookies camp. No current references in the article point to why it is believed that New Zealand leave sherry/beer/mince pies - this would possible be a historical thing when we were more closely aligned with Britain. ] (]) 10:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

			:Thank your for the note. The entire paragraph is unsourced. I can attest that milk and cookies are a think in the US/in my news feed, but I've no idea about British or Aussie traditions. Let's see: @] or @], do you happen to know the Australian tradition? Does Santa really get mince pies and alcoholic drinks in Australia? ] (]) 06:01, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Back as a kid I used to just put milk and cookies too – no idea if it's changed or if it differs by region, not too sure. --] (]) 06:11, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Milk and cookies seem to be the universal Santa treat. Claus driving drunk in New Zealand may be OR. ] (]) 12:40, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Or maybe it was a thing 50–100 years ago, but isn't any longer?
			::::I'm going to remove the uncited claim, though https://trialsjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13063-024-08604-w suggests that leaving out a bit of sherry isn't unknown. ] (]) 01:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::: errr.....carrots? ] (] '''·''' ]) 02:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I have heard of people leaving carrots out (for the reindeer). ] (]) 07:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

			== Change the infobox ==

			Santa isn't a legendary person, it's only a mythological person just like all the other characters listed i nthis article that are similar to hin ] (]) 00:38, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Please gain consensus to make that change. The article lead lists him as a legendary person. Also, please review the talk archives for every previous discussion.--] ] 00:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:Because Santa is partly based on the real-world figure of ], that makes him a ]. That is, no matter how much fiction has been larded on top, if you scrape off all the fiction, there is some tiny speck of actual human history inside it. This contrasts with a mythological person, such as a ], or a folkloric person, such as the ], which don't even have a tiny speck of a real human underneath the stories. ] (]) 06:09, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

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This article is substantially duplicated by a piece in an external publication. Since the external publication copied Misplaced Pages rather than the reverse, please do not flag this article as a copyright violation of the following sources:

Surhone, L. M. (2010), Sinterklaas: Netherlands Antilles, Santa Claus, culture of Belgium, Betascript Publishing
Jochim, Mark Joseph (11 December 2018), A Month of Christmas: Santa’s Home & Workshop, A Stamp A Day

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Surhone 2010 identifiers: OCLC 727199984, ISBN 9786130963446.

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by 97198 (talk) 10:38, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

( Comment or view )( Article history links:

)

... that fans of the Philadelphia Eagles threw snowballs at Santa Claus? Source: https://www.thedp.com/article/2020/12/penn-football-franklin-field-eagles-santa
- ALT1: ... that during the Philadelphia Eagles Santa Claus incident, Eagles fans booed Santa Claus? Source: https://www.thedp.com/article/2020/12/penn-football-franklin-field-eagles-santa
- Reviewed:

Created by Sportsfangnome (talk). Self-nominated at 13:03, 6 July 2022 (UTC).

Sorry, Sportsfangnome, but just as in your last nomination, none of the articles is eligible because none of them has been recently created or expanded 5x or promoted to Good Article. Please, please, please read WP:DYK, especially the section on eligibility criteria, before submitting any more nominations. MANdARAX XAЯAbИAM 14:11, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

New-Amsterdam?

The article mentions that the current image of Santa Claus is based on these 19th century Dutch immigrants coming to New Amsterdam. Besides the lack of any citation, New Amsterdam became New York after the second Anglo-Dutch war, in which the Dutch traded their colony for Surinam. After that, the colony became known as New York. So, why is this mentioned? Quirinius Germanicus (talk) 20:51, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Brittanica:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Santa-Claus

The Dutch are credited with transporting the legend of Saint Nicholas (Sinterklaas) to New Amsterdam (now New York City) Helioz9 (talk) 22:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not censored for this article?

I don't get it, in one of the templates for the talk page it says "Misplaced Pages is not censored" What is not censored for this article? 73.216.182.68 (talk) 13:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

It means what it says: Misplaced Pages is not censored. It's not just on this article, too, it's all across the entire wiki. SleepDeprivedGinger (talk) 18:27, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Usually, censorship inquiries are about Not safe for work ("NSFW") content. Someone might ask, for example, why there is a photo of two real naked adults at Human body, instead of just drawings.

In this case, the application "not censored" means: This article will not tell your kids that Santa is real, or even make it sound like Santa might be real. Parents who wish otherwise might want to read Santa Claus#Representation to children. The second paragraph has statistics on age-appropriate beliefs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:37, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Then again, maybe this Puck cover used on the page puts the "naughty" in "naughty or nice". Randy Kryn (talk) 03:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus... WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Santa is not Odin

This is a pop culture idea that has become very popular in neopagan circles despite the history and evolution of Saint Nicholas to Santa Claus being well attested. The source used in the article currently is Margaret Baker, an author who wrote some books on magical gardening and such with no academic credentials I can find, which I don't believe to be appropriate. Here's articles by actual academics on the subject all stating that this idea is modern and inaccurate.

No, Santa Claus Is Not Inspired by Odin

Odin Isn't Santa Claus - Youtube video by Dr. Jackson Crawford

Concerning Yule Fwinzor (talk) 16:35, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I spent a couple of minutes looking for a source, and found this:

"Meanwhile in England, where he was known as Old Father Christmas – no doubt inspired by the Scandinavian god Odin – Santa Claus was often dressed in green, and wore a holly crown over his head. That pagan figure appeared in numerous Victorian images."

in Prah-Perrochon, Anne. 2015. “The Invention of Santa Claus.” France-Amérique 8 (12): 32–41.

That adds a layer of complexity. St Nicholas doesn't descend from Odin, but Old Father Christmas might, and if Old Father Christmas was grafted on top of St Nicholas to produce "Santa", then there would be some connection there. I think this is going to require more time looking for scholarly sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The words "no doubt" are doing a lot of heavy lifting there. There is to my knowledge no historical evidence of that whatsoever, in spite of popular belief to the contrary. Old Father Christmas was not a "pagan figure" – he was, as the name suggests, a personification of Christmas. Read the first two or three sections of Father Christmas (I wrote them, relying on proper scholarly sources such as Ronald Hutton). MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:48, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

May also be of interest: an editor wishes to add to Santa Claus's reindeer an assertion that "The original mythical gift-giver portrayed as riding a reindeer-pulled sleigh was probably the Finnish god Ukko." See Talk:Santa_Claus's_reindeer#Finnish_idea_of_reindeer_(not_Odin). MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@MichaelMaggs, having thought about this for a very small number of minutes, I've come to a conclusion: If you think anything in this article is wrong, I'd be happy to have you remove it (or tag it, if you think it's redeemable). WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:58, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I've been thinking about tackling this article for several years, but have always been discouraged by the time it would take. There's just so much to do. MichaelMaggs (talk) 15:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

True, but perhaps just fixing up the Santa Claus#Predecessor figures or Santa Claus#History sections would feel more manageable? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:10, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Christmas Eve Gift for Santa

In New Zealand today we do not leave sherry/beer/mince pies. We are firmly in the milk and cookies camp. No current references in the article point to why it is believed that New Zealand leave sherry/beer/mince pies - this would possible be a historical thing when we were more closely aligned with Britain. 203.109.193.87 (talk) 10:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank your for the note. The entire paragraph is unsourced. I can attest that milk and cookies are a think in the US/in my news feed, but I've no idea about British or Aussie traditions. Let's see: @Casliber or @SHB2000, do you happen to know the Australian tradition? Does Santa really get mince pies and alcoholic drinks in Australia? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:01, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Back as a kid I used to just put milk and cookies too – no idea if it's changed or if it differs by region, not too sure. --SHB2000 (talk) 06:11, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Milk and cookies seem to be the universal Santa treat. Claus driving drunk in New Zealand may be OR. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:40, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Or maybe it was a thing 50–100 years ago, but isn't any longer?

I'm going to remove the uncited claim, though https://trialsjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13063-024-08604-w suggests that leaving out a bit of sherry isn't unknown. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

errr.....carrots? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I have heard of people leaving carrots out (for the reindeer). WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Change the infobox

Santa isn't a legendary person, it's only a mythological person just like all the other characters listed i nthis article that are similar to hin Viceskeeni2 (talk) 00:38, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Please gain consensus to make that change. The article lead lists him as a legendary person. Also, please review the talk archives for every previous discussion.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 00:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Because Santa is partly based on the real-world figure of Saint Nicholas, that makes him a Legend. That is, no matter how much fiction has been larded on top, if you scrape off all the fiction, there is some tiny speck of actual human history inside it. This contrasts with a mythological person, such as a gnome, or a folkloric person, such as the Tooth Fairy, which don't even have a tiny speck of a real human underneath the stories. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:09, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

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