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{{Notice|image=Stop hand nuvola.svg| In July 2008 the Arbitration committee issued a ] in the ]: Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to pseudoscience, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.}}
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{{Old AfD multi
|{{anchor|Notice}}'''Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience'''
| date = January 31 2007
| result = '''Speedy keep'''
| page = List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts
| date2 = February 1 2007
| result2 = '''Speedy keep'''
| page2 = List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts (2nd nomination)
| date3 = April 14 2009
| result3 = '''Keep'''
| page3 = List of topics characterized as pseudoscience (3rd nomination)
}}
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*]: 2003 — August 2006
*]: August 2006 — December 2006
*]: December 2006 &mdash; March 2007
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*]: April 2007 &mdash; July 2007
*]: July 2007 &mdash; October 2007
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== Some comments ==

1. As others have said, we have to seperate between stupidity and pseudosciences. Fairies is stupid but not a scientific stupidity.

2. We have to make it clearer that is psuedoscientific about a subject and that is not. To just write Tunguska event and nothing more, makes is seem that the Tungaska event didn't happen. This is wrong.
We should write something like:

Antimatter Tungaska event - the belief that the Tungaska event was not caused by a meteor but by antimatter or similary anomalous causes.

Other subjects that may need rewriting is

*Ball lightning - ball lightings exist. Only some new age uses is psuedo.
*Hypnosis - exists.
*Meditation - exists. Maybe use "Magical meditation - people that states that they can no magical tricks by meditation."
*Stock market prediction - exists. Maybe use "False economic models. Many parts of modern economics makes predictions they have no sound scientific base to support."
*Out-of-body experiences - is it not better to use "life after death" as the psuedoscience.

Should we not add religion, god and soul as psudoscientific concepts?

3. Some things are not big enough to include.
Laundry balls - never heard about. Delete?

4. We should seperate between obscure and parody pseudoscience. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

] 23:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

:For God and souls, it seems difficult to find source about people trying to make these concepts look scientific. But yeah, it is not really clear when something is simply unscientific or really pseudoscientific. ] 10:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
:You missed the "Finally, some of these items are not considered pseudoscientific in and of themselves: only certain aspects, explanations, and/or applications of them. See an item's description text for more information on this" bit. '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 14:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
::Yes, both of us did. ] 00:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

==Bible Codes anyone?==

Should the ] be listed here? <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Conflicting definitions of list ==

The list as structured has conflicting purposes. Is it for anything called pseudoscientific by any critic or for areas where there is a clear consensus that a subject is pseudoscientific? If the latter, evidence of this should be on the article's page (and/or presented here). If the former, the article is misleadingly (and leadingly) titled, as are sections thereof. Some clarification is needed - you can't have it both ways (i.e. include disputed areas but title this article as if only undisputed items are included). ] 10:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I have moved certain subjects from the main list to a disputed area. References are supplied in the article for the dispute (except for biorhythms, which still needs positive citations). ] 13:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

:The purpose is kind of between those two extremes. The razor we came up with a while back is that we'll include it if it's called pseudoscience (or described as such, the actual word isn't necessary) by either a notable scientific body or a notable skeptic or skeptical organization. So, in the former case, it would likely be representing consensus of the scientific community, while not so much in the latter case. Of course, for something like this, there's the possibility of disagreement (particularly between skeptics when it comes to borderline issues, such as ]). What to do in that case isn't clear, though I think it would be appropriate to leave it in with a note that it's disputed and briefly explain the dispute. --] <sup>] ]</sup> 16:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

:To expand a bit, I really don't think a "disputed" section is a good idea. I've all too often seen pseudoscientists try to fram their subject as being "disputed" in order to make it look better. In actuality, most of these cases have been resolved by mainstream scientists and it's just a few fringe scientists who are trying to keep the dispute alive. Also, to show there really is a dispute in an area, a single source by someone saying there's a dispute or disagreeing with mainstream consensus isn't sufficient. There will always be people out there (even some scientists) who disagree with well-established theories. Just look at ] - among biologists, it's taken for granted at this point, but there are scientists all over the place who disagree with it and try to frame it as a dispute (see ]). --] <sup>] ]</sup> 16:51, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there is a range between genuinely disputed areas (e.g. acupuncture), marginally disputed areas and areas only disputed by fringe elements (e.g. evolution, or the roundness of the earth for that matter).
There are also areas, however, that are clearly not pseudoscientific (e.g. meditation, ball lightning, subliminal perception) on this list. Whether the latter two exist or not is an ongoing scientific question; to prejudge this is bad science. The Misplaced Pages entry on ball lightning certainly indicates that there is serious scientific research on the question.

The article says of the areas listed: "a majority of the work ... done in them (or having been done) is of a pseudoscientific nature." This claim is not proven for quite a number of the items, either here or in the corresponding articles. In fact, several of them assert that the contrary is true; that serious work is ongoing. An unsupported claim should either be dropped or proven. If the article is simply a collection of everything skeptic groups, or even single individuals, (both of which are by definition not neutral) consider pseudoscientific, it should be clear about this too.

The terminology and qualifications for being listed should be brought into line. ] 18:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

:Yeah, you make some good points there. I think the question we have to ask here is along the lines of what this list ''should'' be, rather than simply what it is or what it says it is. Once we decide on that, we can rework all sections as appropriate. Personally, I believe the article should include any subject for which the pseudoscientific research into it is notable and not in an extreme minority (and we should of course describe this in the comments about it). My reasoning is simply that if there's significant pseudoscientific research into ], for instance, it would make sense for it to be linked from here, no? --] <sup>] ]</sup> 21:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with this approach, but the list's name and the introduction should then be changed. You can't include ball lightning in a list of pseudosciences, or assert that it is a pseudoscience, when there is ongoing and genuine scientific research into the subject. Let's decide what we want and then title and introduce it accordingly. A broadly inclusive policy will require a title such as "List of concepts critiqued as pseudoscientific". ] 01:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

:We've gone back and forth on this title a lot in this article. If you haven't already, it might be a good idea to go over some of the archives to see what's lead to the current title. I'll probably do that myself as well, since I wasn't around when this last change was made. After that, we can possibly restart discussion on it if you still feel the need. --] <sup>] ]</sup> 03:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

== Questioning topics' inclusion ==

All right, I've gone through the recent archives and the arbitration proceedings. Some questions: First of all, I cannot see many of the footnotes (those formatted like this: <nowiki>{{ref|&#91;S&#93;}}</nowiki>. They are invisible to my browser somehow. Do they exist?

I see problems that remain with the following areas:
#Scientific areas. The following belong to science, not pseudoscience.
##Ball lightning. This appears to have once been questioned but now accepted by scientific authorities.
##Hypnosis. This certainly happens. There are no citations either here or in the hypnosis article to support its listing here.
##Multiple personality disorder. Clearer description that it is not the disorder, but paranormal explanations of the disorder that are in question.

#Non-scientific areas. These are not pseudoscience, but non-science. I propose removing the following items from the list; they are as inappropriate here as "]" would be.
##Meditation
##Reincarnation

In some cases, there are citations in this article supporting a topic's scientific foundation, but none supporting the claim that they are pseudoscientific or undermining this foundation!!! I have fact-tagged these items.

Finally, whatever standard the article applies, documentation needs to be present as to how the topic meets this standard. ] 16:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

===Lead section===
:Allow me to be of service. Please check out Misplaced Pages's policy for ]. Please pay close attention to the "Lead and Selection Criteria" portion of the policy which begins: ''Lists should begin with a lead section that presents unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources.'' -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="2" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 17:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that the present lead section meets that criterion. ] 18:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
:I don't know. From my perspective, it reads a little ambiguously. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="2" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 18:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

::OK, I reread the lead section, and there are some issues. The last paragraph is self-contradictory about hypnosis, for example:
:::'' are included, however, in that a majority of the work being done in them (or having been done) is of a pseudoscientific nature. For instance, while many proposed explanations for hypnosis are pseudoscientific, the phenomenon is generally accepted as real and there are scientific explanations for it as well''
::Is the majority of work pseudoscientific or is the phenomenon generally accepted as real?] 20:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

::::I don't know. Hence the ambiguity. I truly believe that this list would be more maintainable if you limited it to items which only notable bodies of scientists have declared as pseudoscientific. I think including the opinions of certain skeptic organization muddies inclusion criteria with politics rather than pure science. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="2" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 00:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

::A little like listing "Communists" on the basis of the Committee for Un-American Activities' work? ] 11:44, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

:::As absurd as it may sound, that isn't a bad analogy at all. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="2" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 16:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

== Ball Lightning ==
I would like to call into question the reasoning for adding the ref tag to the ball lightning entry. What would properly satisfy the editor in question who added the tag in order to have it removed? There are numerous ref's that can added from the ball lightning entry to support the anecdotal evidence, but is it really worth adding more ref's to the page that already has a ton? From reading through the ref's on the entry, there does not seem to be a single entry that discusses more than 2 specific instances. Thoughts? Cheers!!! ] 19:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

:Both in the main article and in this list entry, there is documentation that ball lightning exists and is a matter of scientific study. However, there is no documentation in either location that documents why it should be included in a list of pseudosciences. (Anecdotal evidence is not per se pseudoscientific.) ] 20:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

::There are accounts of people claiming to have seen ball lightning, but I would not go as far as saying that there is documentation of it existing. As you mentioned, anecdotal evidence is does not qualify it has pseudo-scientific but it also doesn't make a good case for its existence. The scientific community may be leaning towards acknowledging its existence but until it can be replicated, it is still an area shrouded in controversy. As to its inclusion on this list, I have my doubts. I guess it all depends on the the lead. And from how it reads now, I think that ball lightning might warrant exclusion. Cheers!!! ] 22:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

:::The entry in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience merely states that evidence is anecdotal and varied explanations are given; it does not use any term related to pseudoscience. Nor is it up-to-date; the more is that it exists, and the phenomenon is now . The entry should be removed. ] 00:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
::::The encyclopedia labels it an "important pseudoscientific concept." Also, the list item and the cited article don't say outright that ball lightning doesn't exist. '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 00:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::If you don't mind Simoes, could you point me in the direction of the particular entry you are referring to above. With the ref's being busted, it doesn't help to support anyone's particular case right now and I would like to read it, if possible. Cheers!!! ] 00:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::Volume 1, Section 1 (Important Pseudoscientific Concepts) of ]. The article is on page 48. '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 01:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::::While I don't doubt the entry in the SEoP, I do have to ask why a mention of pseudoscience is nowhere present on the actual Ball Lightning entry, yet it is included here. Methinks that if it did qualify as pseudoscience, it would warrant a mention on it's own page. Thought we should discuss that on the talk page for Ball Lightning, we need to address that problem here as well. ] 16:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::::Well, for this article, we have it properly sourced, so it should stay in. You do raise a good point that we should probably then include this information at ], but this doesn't mean we should remove the entry from here until that's done. --] <sup>] ]</sup> 16:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you're right about it meeting the current criteria. I have therefore moved ball lightning to a section for natural phenomena for which there is only anecdotal evidence, and have therefore been doubted by skeptics, but which mainstream science does not question. ] 10:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

== References ==

As mentioned above, many of the references in this article seem not to function (those formatted with <nowiki>{{ref}}</nowiki> templates, in particular). Shall we remove them, or does someone know something I don't? ] 23:59, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to replace dead links with requests for citations if there is no other solution. ] 18:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
:I think someone broke these references along the way. I'll fix it in a bit. '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 22:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

::It seems we have at least 55 refs but we only show 49 in the reflist. Some of the refs are formatted as such: <nowiki>{{ref|&#91;S&#93;}}</nowiki>. Is this a problem? -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 17:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, fixed. '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 22:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

== Title ==

If we stay with the current criteria for entries in this list, I suggest that we change the article title. The situation with ball lightning makes this evident; try this topic in Google Scholar and a host of scientific studies of the phenomenon come up, including book length works. The New Scientist article cited above makes it evident that there is no longer serious doubt about the existence of the phenomenon, only about its cause. The Misplaced Pages ] article records no dispute about the topic's scientific validity. Yet, because it is (apparently) mentioned in a single skeptical work, probably with no citations at all to document its pseudoscientific nature, it can be included in this list.

If an area of serious scientific study can be listed here on such a basis, then the list's title cannot claim that its entries are definitively pseudosciences - only that someone, somewhere, has claimed this, even if the scientific consensus is overwhelmingly against that individual or body. How about "List of topics ever termed pseudoscientific"? Then we get to include ], ], ] and ] (all in Williams' Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience). ] 02:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
:From the article: "Finally, some of these items are not considered pseudoscientific in and of themselves: only certain aspects, explanations, and/or applications of them. See an item's description text for more information on this" '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 02:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

There are, of course, areas like this, and we should be careful to avoid tainting a field with a tar brush meant for certain of its interpreters. This may need review, as well; are we careful enough with this distinction for the general reader?

I was discussing a more general divergence between the criteria for inclusion and the title, however. If one hundred scientists have done serious work in a field but one skeptical writer has called the field pseudoscience, the field qualifies for inclusion here according to the list's criteria. But it is not verifiable to call the field a pseudoscience, merely a field someone has once mentioned in this context. That's different than a list of verifiably pseudoscientific fields, meaning there is a broader consensus than a single individual in a contested area.

Note that I am not here concerned about areas where there is a broad consensus towards pseudoscience except for a few fringe supporters/investigators. I am concerned about areas where there is a broad consensus toward science but a few fringe skeptics. This seems to be the problematic situation where the article title implies a consensus that need not exist for inclusion here. ] 16:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

::<i>If one hundred scientists have done serious work in a field but one skeptical writer has called the field pseudoscience, the field qualifies for inclusion here according to the list's criteria.</i> - Well, that depends. Are these scientists or "scientists"? You really have to be careful these days, especially with many pseudoscientific endeavors getting scientific funding. But anyways, it's not just one skeptical writer that's required, it's a notable skeptical writer. It has to be someone who's earned respect as a skeptic (as an easy measure, they should probably have a Misplaced Pages entry which makes mention of this aspect of them). Even in this case, if you can source significant dissent from this opinion (by other sources which meat the same criteria), then it might be reasonable to not include an entry. --] <sup>] ]</sup> 16:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's the situation with ball lightning. It appears to be a subject of considerable serious scientific research - there are pages and pages of book-length and journal treatments on Google Scholar. But one encyclopedia appears to consider it pseudoscientific, and this apparently solely because people have seen the phenomenon often (which is all anecdotal evidence means). We only have analytical evidence that things fall down when dropped, for example, but gravity is not considered pseudoscience. ] 19:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

:::I thought one of the guiding principles of Wiki was that all notable viewpoints must be presented. How can an article that simply requires one source to state as fact that something '''is''' an example of X, irrespective of how many competing (better? more authoritative?) sources exist, and without even mentioning the existence of those sources, itself be allowed to exist? The title should be changed to "things that have been called pseudoscience." As things stand the article is little more than a piece of POV pushing sleight of hand.] 19:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

This is the point. ] 19:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

:Perhaps we should come up with a sort of litmus test to evaluate a claim for inclusion on this list. There are obvious pseudo topics (creationism, magnet therapy) but there are other topics whose qualifications have to be questioned. I really do think that it all comes back to how the Lead introduces the topic. I will work on something that will hopefully give a more concrete definition for inclusion in the list. Cheers!!! ] 00:14, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

And then let's make sure the title reflects the criteria. ] 00:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

::Here's an idea: all that needs to happen is a careful evaluation of all ]. If the sources that evaluate a subject to be pseudoscience are more mainstream and more reliable than the sources which claim it isn't pseudoscience then we should include it in the article. Otherwise, I think we shouldn't. ] 14:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

== Eugenics? ==

I don't personally consider ] to fall under the definition of "pseudoscience" proper, but it is often, often referred to as such. My thoughts on it might be that it could fall into a somewhat separate category here, if others agreed: things often referred to as pseudoscience, often because specific historical forms of it engaged in what we might call pseudoscience in retrospect, but depending on the current definition of the term may or may not fall under any strict definition of pseudoscience. But maybe that is a bit too wordy. Anyway, just a thought I had. --] 20:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
:Ours is not to question why, ours is but to report what reliable sources say on the matter. Simply put, we have a source for the claim that eugenics is a pseudoscience, so it goes in. Counteracting this based on our own beliefs is ]. --] <sup>] ]</sup> 16:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
::I don't actually see ] listed on this page. ] 18:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

==Anthroposophy POV-pushing==

I understand that ] is a fan of anthroposophy, so that may explain why anthroposphy was so unduly characterized with kid gloves. In particular, the evaluation of the sources discussing this subject was obviously biased. Classifying anthroposophy under the categorization of "conflicting studies" is quite disingenuous as the subject has absolutely zero support from the scientific community for its pseudoscientific aspects. ] 15:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

:Sorry? So far as I know, there is also zero criticism of anthroposophy from the scientific community. The skeptical sources used here are not scientific ones. The article quoted a verifiable source stating that there were conflicting philosophical evaluations of claims that inner experience can be treated with similar scientific rigor as outer experience; this source was removed without justification by the above editor. POV-pushing, i.e. excluding certain POVs and pushing others, is indeed out of place here. So are personal attacks. ] 16:31, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

::Before this begins an edit war, which it looks like it might, let's discuss this on the talk page a little. What do ya say? Raise a pint and talk a bit? ] 18:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I just looked at the source referenced to include anthroposophy and anthroposophic medicine in this article, the Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience. As far as I can see, the relevant article does not refer to either of the two as pseudoscience, nor does it use any phrasing equivalent to this. At the moment, including the two in this list appears to be ]. The articles are written by a person with no academic qualifications; the only critical commentary in the article - which has nothiing to do with pseudoscience - is cited to a self-published website. I'm not clear how this is an encyclopediac source, and it clearly does not support the entry here. ] 02:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

::I humbly recommend that ] cease from editing this page as his direct association with anthroposophy is a direct ]. Typical of many advocates who dislike seeing their pet ideas labeled as pseudoscience, Hgilbert has decided to attack the source of the criticism rather than acknowledge the marginalization of his particular belief per ] and ]. I note also that the sources used to claim that there is "inconclusive" or "active research" in regards to the subject are themselves highly biased meta-studies that are not published in journals devoted to scientific experimentation. ] 11:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

:::How about instead of having an editor leave, we follow through with evaluating the sources on each side in order to find out it's inclusion. In going with what SA mentioned earlier, "all that needs to happen is a careful evaluation of all ]. If the sources that evaluate a subject to be pseudoscience are more mainstream and more reliable than the sources which claim it isn't pseudoscience then we should include it in the article." Lets evaluate the sources for each so that we can not only have a well-sourced claim but we can evaluate the criterion for inclusion. ] 15:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

::::I don't mean to say that Hgilbert should leave, only that he should be judicious in how he edits this article considering his conflict of interest. I encourage him to give some input here, but I don't expect that his association with anthroposophy will enable him to fairly characterize the subject. ] 15:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

:::I suggest with Baegis that we need to evaluate the arguments on their merits. We seem to have one source that does not support what it is claimed to support here, and is an article written by someone who has no professional or academic standing in the field. We have another source, which does support what it is claimed to support, is published by a mainstream academic publishing house, and is written by someone who is a recognized expert in the field. Please correct me if this summary is in any way incorrect. ] 16:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

::::Well, the problem with using the writings of someone so closely connected to the field is that they have a vested interest in seeing that their field is portrayed in a good light. A sort of appeal to authority, if you will. ] 16:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::Um, could you be more specific to whom you are referring, that is, which of the cited sources "has a vested interest"? Merci, ] 16:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

::::::The "recognized expert" in the field. ] 17:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::Sorry to be so dense: do you mean Hgilbert or Robert Todd Carroll? Hgilbert is an editor and not a cited source. The sources he cites are ] as far as I can see. If you mean Hgilbert, then you are really questioning the motives of an editor: I think we need to ] in such cases. If you mean Carroll, I believe Hgilbert raises a question about Carroll as a reliable source, so that's what needs to be discussed. --] 19:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

::I'm trying to understand the justification for which removed several statements and references with the justification being "material was used because it was cherry-picked and unreliable". I don't understand the reasons given. ScienceApologist, can you be more specific what problems you have with the citations of von Rohr et al., Edzard Ernst, Alm et al., and Carlo Willmann? They all look like ] to me and support the statements that you removed. Merci, ] 17:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Mostly, those sources are not directly relevant to the question of whether anthroposophy is pseudoscience or a based on pseudoscientific concepts. Perhaps "unreliable" is not the right word: "irrelevant" may have been better. These sources discuss what may be perceived by some to be positive benefits of aspects of anthroposophy. There, indeed, may be many positive benefits for lots of pseudoscientific beliefs. Indeed, the placebo effect of people associating their magnetic bracelets with pain relief is very real: that does not mean that the process of creating a magnetic therapy bracelet is therefore scientific. See the problem? ] 17:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

::::OK, let's take one at a time: von Rohr, et al. is a peer-reviewed paper by mainstream medical doctors, statisticians, etc. in a recognized Swiss medical journal which characterizes anthroposophical medicine specifically as "complementary" and not alternative: "Anthroposophical cancer treatment is applied in a complementary (additional to conventional medicine) rather than an alternative way." (p. 1183). This is a ] and gives a more authoritative characterization of anthroposophical medicine, I believe, and it justifies the use of that term to characterize anthroposophical medicine, as Hgilbert had it worded.
::::Furthermore, the article states "Our main conclusion is that theoretically it is possible to find study designs which respect the holistic character of alternative or complementary cancer treatments and at the same time, produce methodologically correct evidence on treatment effectiveness. But we have also learnt that unexpected obstacles do occur, which made progress difficult." (p. 1183). This study is therefore quite relevant to whether anthroposophical medicine can be studied scientifically, and indeed the authors conclude that such studies can "produce methodologically correct evidence on treatment effectiveness", although there are obstacles that need to be overcome in such studies. So I think citing the von Rohr et al. study would be quite relevant to this article to achieve a ] and should not be deleted. --] 19:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

::::Regarding the Ernst 2004 citation, Hgilbert said "No thorough scientific analysis of anthroposophical medicine generally has been undertaken; studies of individual medicines have shown a range of positive and negative results." May I suggest a more recent and comprehensive review of controlled trials of anthroposophical medical complementary cancer therapy (Kienle and Kiene, 2007. Complementary cancer therapy: A systematic review of prospective clinical trials on anthroposophic mistletoe extracts. ''European Journal of Medical Research'', '''12''':103-119.) ? This study was done by two medical doctors for a peer-reviewed medical research journal, so it should be acceptable as a ]. Their conclusions are: "Regarding quality of studies and consistency of results, the best evidence for efficacy of mistletoe therapy exists for improvement of QoL and reduction of side effects of cytotoxic therapies (chemotherapy, radiation). Survival benefit has been shown but not beyond critique." In other words, of the 16 randomized clinical trials (RCTs) and 9 non-randomized CTs (n-RCTs) that were considered, the best studies showed that there was good evidence for the efficacy of the AM mistletoe therapy in improving quality of life (QoL) and reducing side effects. There was also evidence suggesting an improvement in survival but some of these studies could be criticized.
::::I'm not suggesting that these results be cited in this article, only that there are reliable sources (this one and the "better" studies that it cites) that suggest a countervailing view, namely that anthroposophical medicine is ''not'' pseudoscience. The efficacy of AM therapies can indeed be, and are, studied with scientific rigor. In fact, I believe that point warrants moving the anthroposophical medicine entry back to the ], because the question is in dispute. --] 05:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

::::Regarding the Alm et al. (1999) ''Lancet'' study, Hgilbert stated "An 'anthroposophic lifestyle' has been shown to reduce ]." ''Lancet'' articles are certainly ]. Again, may I suggest a more recent study following on from this 1999 study, namely, Flöistrup, et al. (2006). Allergic disease and sensitization in Steiner school children. ''The Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology'', '''117'''(1), 59-66. ? This study is a similarly reliable source from a peer-reviewed scientific journal authored by 16 MDs, PhDs and ScDs, involving 6,630 children age 5 to 13 in five European countries, which concluded that certain practices of anthroposophical doctors, such as restrictive use of ]s and ]s, are significantly associated with a reduced risk of allergic disease in children. Again, it's not the study's result that need be cited but the fact that the practices of anthroposophical doctors can be, and are, studied scientifically and their efficacy judged. So again, the question whether anthroposophical medicine is pseudoscience is in dispute, based on reliable sources. The requirement to maintain a ] means that the viewpoint that anthroposophic medicine is ''not'' pseudoscience be given ] weight. Again, I would suggest that anthroposophic medicine be placed in the ]. --] 05:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

::::Regarding the Carlo Willmann (2001) reference, Hgilbert stated "The possibility of such a systematic is disputed and the question remains unsettled." The ] article contains the following statement: "Anthroposophy aims to attain in its investigations of the spiritual world the precision and clarity of natural science's investigations of the physical world. Whether this is a sufficient basis for anthroposophy to be considered a 'spiritual science' has been a matter of controversy.", citing this same source. I don't have a copy of this book. The citation on the book at Google books says that it was Willmann's doctoral thesis at the University of Vienna. The book's bio say that he studied theology. The publisher (Boehlau Verlag in Germany) is a mainstream publisher. Therefore I contend that the Willmann source is a ], being a doctoral dissertation in theology from a major university. Hgilbert may want to quote what Willmann says more specifically, but if a PhD dissertation contends that the question of scientific analysis of inner experience is "unsettled" or a "matter of controversy", that ought to be enough to warrant inclusion of Hgilbert's original statement in the ], if this countervailing viewpoint is to be given ] weight. --] 06:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The cited encyclopedia labels it an "important pseudoscientific concept." I'm not sure what else you could want. '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 22:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

:I have a copy of the two encyclopedia articles (on anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine), neither of which contains the statement you cite. Could you be more specific about where you found this statement?

:In any case, the author of the article has neither expertise nor qualifications in any related field, nor does he cite any author with such expertise or qualfications. In addition, if known POV bias on a subject excludes use here he must be rejected on this basis. Carlo Willmann both has such qualifications and also cites further sources, both non-anthroposophical (Dr. Heiner Barz, a professor of education) and anthroposophical (Kiersch, etc.) that support the contention that the claims of anthroposophy to a scientific methodology are taken seriously, even defended by established academic authorities not themselves connected to anthroposophy. ] 11:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

::Um, Willmann doesn't have qualifications to demarcate science and pseudoscience as far as I can tell, and he doesn't make any claims to this effect in the citations provided by anthroposophy supporters. Whether or not anthroposophy supports "scientific methodology" is a question that is one removed from the designation because we need to know first of all it what fashion anthroposophy is considered pseudoscience. From what I understand, it is pseudoscience of the mystical source, akin to ] or other attempts to "prove" the existence of the spiritual. That is not an issue of methodology but rather one of falsifiability. Unless you have sources which indicate that there are anthroposophists who are willing to accept studies which could disprove their ideas then there really isn't any point in including "counterpoints". ] 22:42, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

:::He actually does address the issue extensively in a five-page subsection of the book titled "Anthroposophy as spiritual science"; here he reviews various contributions to the subject from a variety of people who have addressed the issue, all of whom have appropriate both academic and professional credentials, and comes to the conclusion quoted in the article - that the area is a disputed one - and a second one which I'll try to summarize below:

:::Willman suggests, with citations, that there are three different levels of scientific work, each with a methodology specific to it, but that there are meta-methodological (my term, not his) consistencies that allow one to define a broader scientific methodology. His first form, natural science, makes exact physical measurements that are repeatable. His second form, the social sciences and humanities, addressing as they do the realm of human experience, require a methodology of dialog and interpretation but nevertheless possess methodologically controllable techniques. His third form, "contemplative knowledge", though achievable in clearly defined steps of meditative procedure, is not methodologically verifiable in the sense of the first two. He quotes G. Altner, ''Die Wahrheitsfrage als Herausforderung'' : "One must not play off these models against one another as if any one of them possesses a monopoly that makes the others superfluous." He emphasizes that each form of scientific knowledge must ensure that "charlatans" are exposed, must be open to challenges by the others, but also must be accepting of the other forms.

:::I suggest that Willman is the only review of the issue we have by a competent authority; certainly the only one that cites and critiques a range of sources rather than just asserting an opinion.

:::Finally, there are extensive empirical studies of anthroposophic ideas (for example of anthroposophic medicine in medical journals, in educational journals of anthroposophic pedagogical practice, etc.) These are not directly relevant here; it would be original research for us to survey these and draw conclusions - we need to find others who have done this. But use Google Scholar with terms such as "anthroposophic medicine", "Waldorf education", "anthroposophic architecture", etc., etc. and you'll get an overview of how extensive the literature is. ] 13:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

== Reliable sources ==

Please follow Misplaced Pages standards for reliability and verifiability. Unless a source does not conform to these, please do not remove it arbitrarily (i.e. because it contradicts your POV). In addition, when an active discussion is in hand, it is bad manners to peremptorily take one-sided action. ] 11:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

:Alternatively, we could give the reader some basis in comparing the worth of the various sources. For example, the author of the Skeptic's Encyclopedia articles quoted here was denied standing as an expert witness on that very subject in a California court of law. In fact, the judge expressed "'grave doubts about any reliance upon his opinions about anything that has to do with any intellectual endeavor, including anthroposophy'" (from the trial transcript). Shall we continue to compare the strength of the sources? Or just include this last quote in the article so that the reader can make up his/her own mind? ] 13:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

::Expert witness on what exactly? What was the case in question? ] 16:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

:::He was denied standing as an expert witness on anthroposophy. See more details in the ] article. Or see the actual , p. 28. ] 22:37, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

== Assessing & Rating Sources ==

Above a few editors suggest we should assess the various sources on offer and decide which are the most reliable and/or authoritative and then come to decision here, on that basis, about whether something is or is not pseudoscience. The editors further suggest that once that decision has been reached here, the less authoritative/reliable sources (in our view) should be ignored completely and the article should then state (as fact) only that viewpoint that we have decided here is the most authoritative/reliable source.

This runs directly counter to Wiki policy in at least two ways. First, it is almost the definition of original research. That is, we research the topic, we assess the evidence, we assess the credibility/authority/reliability of the sources, and we then write our conclusions into the article as fact. Second, it runs roughshod over the notion that all notable viewpoints should be expressed. That is, it means that once we have decided what the truth is, we cherry pick those sources we used for our decision and pretend that competing viewpoints/sources don't exist.

On both counts, then, the proposal should be roundly rejected. The problem here is not solved by coming up with new ways to circumvent Wiki policy. The problem here stems from the fact that whether something is or is not a pseudoscience is not a straightforward matter of fact, but is instead, at best, a complex value judgment. And when we add to that problem the problem of the various meanings/uses of "pseudoscience" (one fairly tight definition that includes almost nothing, one fairly loose one that includes almost everything including many sciences, and one that is simply thrown about as a pejorative by various professional "skeptics"), we can begin to see the underlying difficulties with the article as a whole. That is, the title suggests that there is a list to be compiled in a fairly straightforward manner, but the actuality shows that there isn't.

My suggestion, then, is: change the title to "Things that have been labeled pseudoscience", and then in each case state explicitly in what sense something has been so labeled; or else give it up. Anything else is, as stated above, a mere piece of POV pushing sleight of hand. ] 13:19, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

:I strongly oppose a name change to the article. It seems to me you are pushing towards wanting to nominate this article for deletion. If that is what you want to do, it is your right, but I don't think it will be a successful move. I'm not sure if you are talking about Science Apologist's idea or not, but I am going to assume you are for the sake of this. His idea doesn't run counter to any Wiki policy of which I am aware. For every contentious article, you have to weigh the different sources for each viewpoint. We are not conducting original research by any means. These "skeptics" you mention do not throw about the term pseudoscience and I think you are mistaken when thinking they include any actual sciences under this banner. In going with what the lead mentions, it establishes the criteria for inclusion. ] 16:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

1. Nobody was saying that sources don't have to be weighed and appropriate levels of coverage given in the article - this is the essence of Wiki policy. The reason the proposal above runs completely counter to this is that the suggestion there is to weigh the sources here (on the talk page) and then write the article from the viewpoint of only the "winning" source" - the "losing" sources being left unrepresented in the article. This, as noted, is the antithesis of presenting all notable viewpoints because it is the explicit removal of some/many notable viewpoints/sources in order to present a seemingly factual situation in the article (i.e., x is pseudoscience) where no such certainty exists in actuality. The whole point of including all notable viewpoints being to prevent this kind of thing.

2. "Skeptics" such as Robert Carroll and Michael Shermer do throw the word "pseudoscience about as a pejorative and this article does even worse. That is, things are included in this article on no other basis than they are included in a book called the 'encyclopedia of pseudoscience' - a title that was probably chosen for it's rhetorical appeal rather than any actual analysis, carefully considered or otherwise. How else can one explain the inclusion of "trolls, elves and pixies" in such a book. And this is why there is a pressing need for the sense in which "pseudoscience" is being used to be explained in each case - the refusal to do this, or even to acknowledge the appallingly loose manner in which some items have been deemed pseudoscience is the clumsy piece of sleight of hand referred to above. It's not that far removed from having a list called "people born out of wedlock" and including in it everyone who (my friends) have ever called a bastard. That this is being done is amply illustrated in the "ours is not to reason why" response which is so regularly used to respond to anyone questioning anything in the list.
] 17:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

:You appear to be doing original research in the same breath that you denounce it. If you don't think trolls, elves, and pixies have a pseudoscientific air to them, write as much, and get published. Then, if we assess your publication as being reliable, we can cite you as a source! '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 18:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to do any research to know that fairies, elves and trolls etc. are not pseudoscience in anything other than a pejorative and largely empty sense of the term meaning roughly: supernatural or mythological or thought previously by some to exist but now thought not to. One only needs a modicum of intelligence. The point being, the one you don't even try to address - preferring instead a non-argument,is that if a list includes, say, elves, then it is not a list of pseudosciences whatever the commercial or rhetorical or pseudointellectual or pseudodscientific thinking that lay behind the choice to include "pseudoscience" in the title. And the further point being, that once we have shown by reference to the inclusion of, say, elves, in such a book, that the title cannot really be taken as evidence that what is included in it s pseudoscience, we should stop using the mere inclusion of things in such a book as a catch all response to anybody who questions why something is included in our list. Unless, of course, you want to honestly name the article "Things that have been labeled pseudoscience" or some such thing. But then if you did that you wouldn't be able to push your POV that the things here are pseudoscience in actual fact. Which is the whole point of the article after all.] 18:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

:Unless you're aiming to get yourself blocked yet again, I'd keep the personal attacks to yourself. I make no claim about whether any of the items on this list are "in actual fact" pseudoscientific. The threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 19:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

::1. There was no personal attack of any kind. 2. The title explicitly suggests that the items in the list are pseudoscientific in actual fact. 3. The stuff about verifiability rather than truth is a red herring here because we are talking about: a) the exclusion of sources in direct contradiction of Wiki policy; and b) the spurious argument (non-argument) from "x appears in a book with pseudoscience in its title", to "x is a pseudoscience" and why that lying behind the article reduces the article to a mere POV pushing sleight of hand. 4. Please stop the personal attacks. ] 19:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Considering your past history, it might be best if you distance yourself from this talk page, Davkal. ] 19:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

::::Excellent argument, everything I've come to expect from the pseudoskeptic community. Harass, threaten, intimidate but at no point deal with actual points made. Well done!] 19:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::I'm afraid I don't see where this is occurring. Except in your behavior of course. If you would like to contribute to the article, please feel free. If you would rather troll, I'm afraid we can't allow that. ] 20:43, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, let's calm down. I do agree that X's mere inclusion in the table of contents of a book with a title "Encyclopedia of Y" does not qualify as verifiable evidence that X is an example of Y, absent any content in the article that supports this further. I would hope that anyone with any sense for scientific proof, or academic standards generally, would recognize this as a minimum standard.

This is especially true in the case at hand. Heliocentrism, Thomas Kuhn, Occam's Razor, William Harvey, Meteorites and ] all have articles devoted to them in another encyclopedia of pseudoscience. Shall we list these as examples of pseudoscience, too? Otherwise, we will need some content in the article itself that justifies the classification. ] 22:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

:That's a weird strawman you've brought up. If you read the articles on these subjects it is clear that the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience isn't making any claims that these subjects are pseudoscientific. What's your point? ] 23:47, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

::Ditto for the articles on anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine in the Skeptic's Encyclopedia. I assume you're conceding that these should be removed from this list, then? Or do you have a case to make based upon the actual articles? ] 00:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
:::As has been repeated multiple times, anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine are labeled "important pseudoscientific concepts" in the Skeptic Encyclopedia.'''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 03:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Precisely. The articles themselves clearly state it is a pseudoscientific idea. Are you disputing this? ] 15:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


Three Points: 1. All that has been said up to now is that mere inclusion in the book, irrespective of further content is enough. If these things are in the book then they are pseudoscience, according to that line of argument. But now the argument has changed to require some further statement or clarification in the relevant sections of the book, which Hgilbert has already noted is missing in other cases already included here. That is why it is relevant. 2. Following on from 1) and the point I made above, once we have ample examples of things that are clearly not pseudoscience listed in an encyclopedia of pseudoscience, it is going to take much more than mere inclusion in such a book to make the case for something being a pseudoscince. 3. If you, Baegis, think threats of blocks for personal attacks where no personal attacks are made, and references to past "crimes", and accusations of trolling, followed by requests to stop contributing here are not threats, harassment and intimidation, then I suggest you familiarise yourself with the meanings of the words "comment on content, not on contributors".] 00:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:I never threatened blocks of any sort as I merely referenced your extensive history of being rebuked for your editing methods. I didn't commit an act of intimidation or harassment. I asked you to to contribute rather than just come in and try to stir up trouble. Considering your past, I don't know if you will be able to do so which is why I suggested you should move away from this article. You're rants about what constitutes pseudoscience isn't actually helping this article. ] 00:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

4. Points: 1. I never said you threatened me with a block, Simoes did, just above: "Unless you're aiming to get yourself blocked yet again...". 2. To call someones arguments "rants", and accuse them of trolling, and make no real other points about content, is hardly observing wiki policy with regard to the way to respect the views of others. 3. Whether or not the points I make help the article or not is something that only time will tell and is not for you to decide. And 4. the point now under discussion is whether we should reject the argument, much (ab)used previously, and require something more than mere inclusion in a book with pseudoscience in its title to warrant inclusion in the list. The general view now seems to be that we should. ] 00:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::Let's focus on content and get the whole argument away from editors' personalities. ] 00:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Excellent idea. So as far as I can tell the point is this: Encyclopedias of pseudoscience contain many entries that are clearly not pseudoscience. Mere inclusion in such a book, then, can in no way be taken to make the case that any given entry is pseudoscience, nor even that the authors intend it to be so taken. In light of this, we must look at the content of each entry for evidence/claims to that effect. Yes?

:::In addition though, while that would certainly satisfy the obviously essential criterion that entries in the list have at least been labeled pseudoscience (the first problem), it still would not address the exclusion of other competing and/or more authoritative sources. Still, at least it would be a step in the right direction.] 01:03, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::::Why is it listed in the book then? What do you have a problem with being on the list Davkal? Let's just lay it out because you are obviously pointing towards certain items. ] 01:17, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::Ummm...we're going in circles. I just pointed out that many topics and individuals are listed in such books (meteorites, Thomas Kuhn, and so on) that are not pseudoscientific. They should have content in the articles that clearly marks them as pseudoscientific (see the intro to the article for the criteria), and should be written by competent authorities (or they don't meet Misplaced Pages standards). ] 01:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Hgilbert hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned here. My point is not about one topic/entry in our list here. My point is a more general one about using the mere inclusion in certain books as a criterion that x is a pseudoscience (primarily because of the titles of the books!). Something that clearly cannot be any such criterion given the obvious examples of non-pseudoscientific entries in such books. And once we have accepted that mere inclusion is no criterion, we have to look further into the each and every entry we want to use here for specific claims or arguments to the effect that x or y or z is a pseudoscience.

:::In terms a little less abstract: encyclopedias of pseudoscience have been shown to contain many entries that are not strictly speaking (or even loosely speaking) pseudoscience. They have been shown to contain entries ranging from common terms used in "debunking", e.g. Occam's Razor, to people with interesting views on the topic, e.g, Thomas Kuhn, to religious beliefs, e.g., reincarnation, to mythological creatures, e.g., elves and trolls, to alleged paranormal phenomena, e.g., ghosts, to pseudoscience, e.g., phrenology, and a whole host of things in between and beyond that are not so easily classified. Given this, we cannot simply pick any old thing from such books and include it here as "something regarded as pseudoscience" without looking further at the content of each entry. We cannot do this because there is no way to tell from mere inclusion whether the author intends the subject to be fall into the category pseudoscience, as opposed to mere paranormal, or mere mythological or any of the other categories that such books cover. A possible solution would be to change the article's title to "List of Pseudoscientific, Paranormal & Mythological Concepts" or some such thing. Another possible solution is to restrict the entries in the article to only those things that have been explicitly identified as pseudoscience - you could probably identify these ones in the encyclopedias because the entry should begin with something like "x is a pseudoscience..." or "x is a pseudoscientific practice..." or some such thing. A third solution would be to explain in the article that a very loose definition od "pseudoscience is being used such that many of the items in our list are more properly identified as either mythology, or paranormal, or anomalous. This third solution would be a strange one in my view, given how much easier it would be to simply change the title to reflect the actual content of the article. ] 09:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::Electromagnetic fields and cell phones are also listed under "IMPORTANT PSEUDOSCIENTIFIC CONCEPTS" in the Skeptics' Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience. Maybe the table of contents is not a reliable guide to what we should include on this list...] 13:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Interestingly, the supposed adverse health effects associated with EM fields and cell phones are pseudoscientific and probably should be listed on this page. ] 15:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
::::That is precisely the topic of the EM fields & cell phones article. I added it myself months ago, but someone removed it. Feel free to readd it with the Skeptic Encyc cite. '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 21:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Got it. We have a nice ] article too - should that get its own entry, or does the link to elecrosensitivity suffice without crowding the list? ] 23:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

==Anthroposophy evaluations==

This edit removes material which is irrelevant to whether anthroposophy is pseudoscience or not. Whether there are benefits to anthroposophy is irrelevant to whether they are considered psuedoscience or have psuedoscientific characteristics. These points can be listed at the relevant pages (anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine) but do not belong on this page. ] 16:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:The points are obviously relevant since they counter precisely the points made against anthroposophy. That is, for example, Carroll - who knows next to nothing about the topic - thinks the underlying principles are akin to ] (something else Carroll appears to know nothing about) and is therefore out of touch with science; whereas those who do appear to know something about the subject think its epistemic basis is (scientifically)sound. And when a sound underlying epistemology is allied with research which appears to show benefits to, say, anthroposophic medicine, the conclusion is probably science rather than pseudoscience.] 18:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::The source quoted regarding the epistemological basis of anthroposophy did not say that anthroposophy had a scientific basis but rather that it had a religious basis. More than that, simply because a practice has benefits doesn't mean that said practice is scientific or pseudoscientific. It is completely irrelevant. Your distrust of Carroll has been noted, but he has been judged by the preponderance of editors to be a reliable source for skeptical demarcation. ] 18:56, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:::The preponderance of editors here seem to think the points relevant. I am therefore reinserting in line with this notion.] 19:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::::Really? I haven't seen anybody but you argue that the points are relevant: and I've pretty much demolished your claims to relevancy above. Simply stating something doesn't make it so. ] 19:06, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::I'm in agreement with SA here, Davkal. Your feelings about Carroll have no bearing on this article. While there may or may not be benefits, any benefits don't warrant exclusion. People may believe in Feng Shui and it may "help" some people but that doesn't rule out it out of this list. ] 20:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's please avoid editing and reverting the controversial entries on anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine until there is a consensus on what they should say. Merci bien, ] 20:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:I would accept this argument coming from a neutral party, but since you have a couple of hot pokers in the fire yourself, it's very easy to see your argument for "consensus" to be one based on hoping to preserve a commentary which is basically a soapbox for anthroposophy. ] 22:10, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::Excuse me? Proper Misplaced Pages etiquette is not to impugn the motives of editors but to address the content of their edits or their points. My main point earlier was that ] material was added to the two entries to counter the claim that anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine are pseudoscience, in order to give ] to opposing viewpoints and present a ] in the article. Rather than discuss the merits of these points, or whether they do in fact support the argument against a pseudoscience ''here in the Talk section'', the edits are removed without discussion and the editors suggesting NPOV are criticized for trying to uphold a core Misplaced Pages policy. Très intéressant, ] 00:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

== Removal of verifiable sources...continuing ==

In an article with almost no academic sources, and almost exclusively referencing the table of contents of one book as its source, it is a little sad that real citations (to academic journals and books) with clear and obvious relevance are being removed by one user. I am referring to the anthroposophy citations, one about reductions in atopy (through empirical testing and published in the Lancet, which of all sources should be acceptable here) and one about the validity of its epistemological basis. Is it scientific, in order to make a point, to delete Lancet articles and keep citations to people with absolutely no academic or professional qualifications in the field, and who have been judged intellectually incompetent to comment on any field by a verifiable source, as has Dugan, the author of the article in the Skeptics' Encyclopedia presently cited? ] 16:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:Reductions in atopy do not have beans to do with whether the thing reducing the atopy is pseudoscientific or not. The validity of anthroposophy's epistemology is also irrelevant because it simply deals with categorizing the subject as a religion rather than a science. Again, that says nothing about the pseudoscientific nature of some of its claims. Claiming that Dugan is "intellectually incompetent" is quite a bold and unverified statement in itself. It looks to me like your upset that people are criticizing your baby. ] 16:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:Your above comments are OR. The source is OK. Better than others I have seen used in wiki. There seems to a problem with a lot of the articles where people can choose what they think is a reliable source. I have seen opinions on websites used as reliable sources. It seems reliability is in 'the eye of the beholder' here. ] 16:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::Well, we weren't really saying anything here about reliability of the sources, but I point out that there is a guideline on the issue: ]. What's more there just because a source is reliable does not mean it automatically is relevant to the article. ] 16:58, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:::The Dugan statement was not made by me, but by the federal judge excluding him as a expert witness; I'll insert it into the article so it won't get lost again. That the Lancet study showing reduction in atopy is relevant is made clear by a request on this very talk page to demonstrate that anthroposophy subjects itself to scientific study (and, presumably, can demonstrate valid results). Whether something is confirmed by scientific evidence has a good deal to do with whether it is a pseudoscience or not...unless you ignore empirical evidence. Finally, could you make clear how a discussion of anthroposophy's scientific status and basis is not relevant to whether it is a pseudoscience? ] 00:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

==disputed tag==

I have added the disputed tag since there are many serious concerns about this article that have not been addressed. The article excludes presenting notable views by a piece of sleight of hand between the title and the explanation of content (neutrality). Even given the explanation of content the topics included are cherry picked (neutrality again). The definitions of some entries are ridiculous and many ludicrous opinions are presented as fact (factual accuracy).] 20:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:And I reverted your addition of the tag. It is only disputed by you. Btw, thanks for calling me a sock of SA. Really warms the heart. ] 21:04, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Hgilbert disputes for the same reasons. So have a number of others above in the last few days. These points have never been addressed. I have reverted your vandalism. Sockpuppet/meatpuppet who cares. ] 21:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:Are you pushing for a revert ban? Please do not add the tags. Also, please stop the personal attacks. Cheers!!! ] 21:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::Well, it seems others think the tags are justified, and removing legitimately placed tags is vandalism, so unless you would like a ban I think you should desist. ] 22:04, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


This looks like bullying.--] 22:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:It is bullying. We should get some administrator intervention. ] 22:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::I agree, I've been bullied endlessly by Simeos, SA, Baegis and OrangeMarlin. Constant threats of bans, constant references to me rather than the content of my edits, harassment on my talk page, and pretending I'm the only one making a point that has been made by at least three separate editors in the last few days in order to accuse me of disruption.] 22:16, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:::More than one person has jumped on the bandwagon and slapped the disputed tag on the article, indeed - but I can only see ] coming here to argue in its favour, and then the only argument put forward is that "there are many serious concerns about this article that have not been addressed". Please give specific examples of which items are misrepresented, ludicrous, cherry-picked etc. ] 22:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::::The examples have had to be given with tiresome monotony above. Perhaps if you read the talk page you would see that a number of editors have expressed exactly the same concerns over cherry-picking entries from sceptical encyclopedias which include other entries that are not included here. A number of editors have also expressed concern over the way the article breaches wiki policy by writing a disclaimer immediately after the title which straightforwardly excludes any source which does not make a positive statement that x is a pseudoscience irrespective of its status. Those editors have also noted that this disclaimer means the article does not reflect it's title and have asked for the title to be changed. And an example of a ludicrous opinion presented as fact: King Tut's curse is pseudoscience.] 22:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with expanding the list and encourage people to do so. Obviously some of the entries in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience are not pseudoscience at all (for example, biographies of people like Carl Sagan), but the encyclopedia includes other examples of pseudoscience that are clearly not listed here. No one ever said that the article was exhaustive! ] 22:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::I'm glad you agree that "Obviously some of the entries in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience are not pseudoscience at all". The problem this creates though is that for about the last 6 months anyone who disputed any entry was simply told that inclusion in such an encyclopedia was enough - the "ours is not to question why" stock response above. And given this, we now need explicit statements in the source rather than simple inclusion. Lets start with the "sceptics" list. I don't want to fact tag them all at once but will do so if appropriate citations cannot be found in the next few days. In the meantime I think it would show good faith if you replaced the disputed tag pending such citations and given that you now concede that mere inclusion, the criterion used until now, can no longer be considered a valid criterion. ] 23:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:::As long as the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience describes a subject as pseudoscience we can included it here, end of story. Ours is not to question why. There is no dispute, simply having the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience describe a subject as pseudoscientific is plenty good enough for us to include it here. ] 23:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::::But that's exactly what you don't have absent some direct claim to that effect. All you have at the moment is a title of a book and an entry in that book, and you have already conceded that this is no criterion by which to identify pseudoscience - you did that here, look: "'''Obviously''' some of the entries in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience '''are not pseudoscience at all'''", and then here again, look: "As long as the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience '''describes a subject as pseudoscience'''". Grateful if you could replace the disputed tag and then add the appropriate specific citations to the alleged descriptions.] 23:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::::This point "simply having the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience describe a subject as pseudoscientific is plenty good enough for us to include it here", is also in direct breach of Wiki policy on expressing opinion as opinion, and detailing all notable viewpoints, and it is in direct conflict with the title of the article. But we will leave that argument until we at least have some evidence that the entries in the current list have at least been called pseudoscience in the first place.] 23:33, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::The subjects cited in this article are all described in the encyclopedia as pseudoscience. Every last one of them. I don't see how it is a breach of policy to let it be known that subjects have been described as pseudoscience by a ]. ] 23:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

::::::2 points. 1) none of the topics sourced to the encyclopedia of pseudoscience have had clear citations presented re where they have been specifically described as pseudoscience. All that has been offered so far is their mere inclusion in a book called an encyclopedia of pseudoscience. Which, as you concede, contains many entries that are obviously not pseudoscience, e.g., trolls. Unless such specific descriptions actually exist, then, we are no position to simply assert that the source identifies them as pseudoscience rather than, say, as merely mythological, or merely paranormal, or merely religious, or merely anomalous, or any one of the many other categories covered in such books. (King Tut's curse being perhaps the clearest example of something that is so obviously not a pseudoscience as to call your claim into question absent some specific citation. I mean, who in their right mind, surely not even Carroll or Shermer, would call King Tut's curse a pseudoscience?)
::::::2) Even if we get a specific citation from, say, Shermer, it is still a breach of policy to present his opinion as fact - especially when it is highly contentious opinion of a pejorative nature regarding subjects about which he is not an expert. That is, it is totally unacceptable to have an article wholly based on the notion that just because Robert Carroll, or Michael Shermer, say "X", that X is true. This is what the article currently does by pretending that what is in the list is actual pseudoscience (the article is supposed to be a list of pseudosciences in actual fact) rather than merely a list of what a few professional lobbyists with no real expertise in the subject matter have (maybe) claimed is pseudoscience. Opinion should be presented as opinion and not as fact.
::::::My overall point being that I am all for letting the reader know that so-and-so has said such-and-such is a pseudoscience, but only if: a) they actually did say that (and that has still to be shown); and b) it is presented clearly as a case of so-and-so saying such-and-such is a pseudoscience rather than disingenuously as a case of "such and such is a pseudoscience".] 00:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


:Interestingly enough, King Tut's curse is an excellent example of pseudoscience. It presents a falsifiable claim that has been falsified and yet is still advocated by pseudoscientists. ] 00:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to say that I also agree with the ''neutrality in dispute'' tag: "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed." Rather than get into a revert war, perhaps we can discuss the points that motivated that tag? Perhaps the article's editors will allow countervailing evidence to be presented for a listing? So that the article can present a ]? --] 00:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

:Unless the countervailing evidence is specifically about demarcation, it does not belong in this article. ] 00:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Above SA wrote, "interestingly enough, King Tut's curse is an excellent example of pseudoscience. It presents a falsifiable claim that has been falsified and yet is still advocated by pseudoscientists." This is patent nonsense, and shows a worrying lack of clarity about the nature of PS. If I claim that the winners of the 2007 World series in Baseball were the San Diego Padres, and continue to claim this even after someone has shown me the record books, this does not make my claim PS. Much, much more is required than that.] 20:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

===Proposed consensus===
I hope we all share in a consensus that:
#The author of an article cited must qualify as a reliable source.
#The text of the article must clearly support the use of the term "pseudoscience" by citation to authors who use this or an equivalent classification; mere inclusion in a table of contents does not suffice.
#Evidence that relates to demarcation belongs in this article. (We may have a demarcation issue with what evidence relates to demarcation, however!)
If we do have such consensus, we can go on to evaluate case by case. If we don't, I support the disputed tag. ] 00:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

*''"Even if we get a specific citation from, say, Shermer, it is still a breach of policy to present his opinion as fact - especially when it is highly contentious opinion of a pejorative nature regarding subjects about which he is not an expert."''
Citing Shermer's contention that X is a pseudoscientific concept is not presenting it as fact. As a notable skeptic and trained researcher, Shermer's opinion on what constitutes pseudoscience is simply being used as a criterion for inclusion in this list, not to make value judgements about X. Also, I think it is a bit absurd to assert that someone needs to be an expert in a particular field in order to objectively evaluate whether there is a scientific basis to the claims made in that field. Shermer is clearly an expert in general scientific principles and experimental methodology, which is all that is required to objectively evaluate most ''scientific'' claims. —&nbsp;<font face="Verdana">]</font> <sup>'']''</sup> 03:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::Above it is argued, "Citing Shermer's contention that X is a pseudoscientific concept is not presenting it as fact. As a notable skeptic and trained researcher, Shermer's opinion on what constitutes pseudoscience is simply being used as a criterion for inclusion in this list". This is simply wrong because what "inclusion in this list" means here is that X is psedoscinectific in actual fact. The general form of the argument: if you use A's '''contention that''' "X is a Y" as a '''criterion''' (a sufficient condition) for including X in a list of things that are Y, then you are straightforwardly saying that X '''can be regarded as''' Y '''just because''' A '''says that''' X is Y. If you called the article "things that A has said are Y" then there would be no problem, but you don't, you call the article "things that are Y".] 00:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

::::::''I'm'' not trying to say that X is regarded as Y becasuse A said it, but the intro paragraph certainly seems to indicate for incluson in this list, a concept must have been labeled pseudoscience by A. (A = notable scientific and skeptical bodies). Am I wrong? If not, and the introduction does imply that X is Y according to A, then you should be trying to change the intro if you disagree with this rationale for inclusion, or else your argument is a bit weak. By the way, I think that as head of the Skeptics Society and a PhD holding scientist, Shermer qualifies as an "A". —&nbsp;<font face="Verdana">]</font> <sup>'']''</sup> 00:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::::You misunderstand the point completely, please reread it and respond. ] 20:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

::This seems to be an under-the-radar attempt to remove one of the verifiable critics of anthroposophy who was dismissed from a rather poorly argued Federal case. In any case, it's pretty clear that anthroposophy inasmuch as it argues for some sort of objective measurement of a human soul is pseudoscience of the same sort as other "scientistic" religions such as ] or ]. ] 03:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Hgilbert's proposal. Unfortunately, after reading the arguments on the talk page it seems that some editors want to use this list to discuss the validity of each individual concept, which would be better suited to the individual articles on the concepts. The introduction to this list makes it clear that concepts included in the list are "regarded as pseudoscientific by organizations within the international scientific community, and/or skeptical organizations." Therefore, any evaluation of sources should focus solely on whether the concept meets this criteria. If a reliable source within the scientific or skeptical community considers X to be pseudoscientific, then it should be included. Any contradictory evidence from a WP:RS supporting the claims of X clearly needs to be included in X's article in order to maintain NPOV, but is irrelevant to X's inclusion in this list. This list should not be a forum for competing sources. That said, inclusion in the table of contents of an encyclopedia of pseudoscience (without a statement in an article explicitly labeling it pseudoscience ) does not seem to meet the burden of evidence. Surely, we can do better than that. If an item on the list is truly considered pseudoscience by the scientific and/or skeptical community, it shouldn't be difficult to find impeccable, easily verifiable sources to confirm this. —&nbsp;<font face="Verdana">]</font> <sup>'']''</sup> 03:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

:I am not suggesting that someone needs to be an expert in, say, astrology to judge whether astrology is a pseudoscience; rather, that s/he should be an expert with verifiable credentials in a field that would allow him/her to make such a judgment. For example, the philosophy of science, sociology, or a corresponding field. But someone with no professional or academic credentials in ''any'' related field (as is the case for at least one of the authors of articles in the Skeptics' Encyclopedia) obviously has no expert standing. That ] is defending such a case only makes me want to look into the qualifications of the other authors more closely.

:In particular, if Dugan is allowed without any qualifications thereto, what standard are you applying? Sympathy with your POV? What about equally unqualified persons who express the opposite POV - what basis would you have to exclude them? Think it through, you're opening a can of worms.

:Finally, this is not the place to thrash out subjects for which there are divided opinions. But the fact that such divided opinions exist should be noted here, according to the NPOV policy. ] 11:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

:I'd also like to strongly recommend that the text that is being cited to verify inclusion is briefly quoted in the article or footnote, especially as it appears that inclusion in an encyclopedia's table of contents continues to be used to justify inclusion here (cell phones, etc.) ] 16:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

::Done and done - do you disagree with my assessment or description of EHS? ] 22:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

::Thanks, the description is excellent - both clear and accurate. I especially appreciate the inclusion of and emphasis on the scientific basis for the critique. As far as I'm concerned, this can serve as a model (unless there are here unreported studies that report actual effects; I'm assuming the latter is not the case). ] 00:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

:Much as I disagree with ] in the debate, in the meta-debate these criteria seem reasonable (especially since I do not happen to have a copy of the Skeptic's Encyclopedia to check references). It is necessary, however, to avoid POV-loading in the (succinct) descriptions to each entry. Specifically, the note about anthroposophy and atopy is inappropriate as it deals with a particular aspect of the practice, not what it consists of or what it claims. Additionally, this reference is somewhat disingenuous; qualifies for ] and the science seems sound (though I am neither a doctor nor a statistician), but it also notes that an "anthroposophic lifestyle" includes denying vaccinations to children, and that "easles has been inversely related to atopy." ] 22:50, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

::I think we can tolerate quite a divergence in the individual issues if we get the framing criteria right. On the specific issue: I agree with you about the atopy reference in terms of it dealing with a particular aspect of the subject; disagree in so far as it demonstrates that anthroposophic medicine is in fact subject to scientific analysis (but again through a particular example rather than through a meta-review). On balance, I will accept its departure gracefully. ] 00:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

::Actually - the EHS entry is clear and concise but missing a citation that supports its inclusion as ''pseudoscience''. This should be added. (I hope everyone understands the distinction: citations to particular scientific work are not evidence for a meta-classification of the field.) ] 10:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

:::I am of the opinion that "scientific consensus that something does not work" + "people asserting the contrary without providing countervailing scientific evidence" = "pseudoscience", but in the interests of raising the bar I have added more direct quotes. This removes any potential ambiguity, and I do agree with you that it should be done wherever possible. ] (]) 05:39, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

::I have clarified point 2 of the proposed consensus. ] 12:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

::When the article is open to edits again, the items in the list "awaiting wording that justifies inclusion" below should be tagged with requests for citation unless point 2 of the proposed consensus is met: evidence of text that clearly justifies inclusion here (the term pseudoscience or an equivalent). If no evidence is forthcoming, eventually the items should be removed. So let's do the research now and record any relevant wording from articles (not tables of contents) - this will minimize the points needing further discussion. ] 00:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

: Clearly no long-lasting concensus can be reached as long as the article could be put in a similar list called "Misplaced Pages articles with a defamatory title" - see below. ] 11:12, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

==Title Again==

What is the point of having an article with a title that says "things that are x", when it is necessary for the first three paragraphs in the article to explain why virtually everything in the article may not actually be an example of x at all. That is, the first para has the qualifier "regarded as pseudoscientific by organizations..." (which means someone has simply called them PS). And this is further qualified in the second para by: "they '''may''' have explicitly called a field or concept "pseudoscience" or used '''synonyms''', '''some''' of which are identified in the references" (which means they may not have even been called PS, but something like it, some of which we'll tell you about). And this, unbelievably, is then further qualified in the third para by, "Some subjects in this list may be legitimate fields of research and/or have legitimate scientific research ongoing within them" (which is to say that they may actually be scientifically valid after all - ie, not PS). So, in short, we have a "list of pseudosciences" which contains things that have been called pseudoscience, except for those that haven't, and even those that have might not be PS in any event. As Butthead so succinctly put it: STOP in the name of all that does not suck!] 00:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

:You have a valid point. The criteria for inclusion seem very noncommital (I would guess that it is the result of a compromise), but we do need ''some'' operational definition of pseudoscience to justify why concept X is on the list, while concept Y is not. For example, there are practices which have been labeled pseudoscience by notable experts and would seem to fit the ] for identifying pseudoscience, yet are not on the list (e.g., reflexology, craniosacral therapy, aspects of massage therapy, dubious psychology , etc.). In one particluar case, ], ] specifically indicates that this should ''not'' be labeled pseudoscience (it is only "questionable science") because it is "has a substantial following". Plenty of the concepts on this list have a "substantial following"; that doesn't make them (or psychoanalysis) any more scientific. Psychoanalysis has been labeled "pseudoscience" by notable scientists and skeptics (Karl Popper among them), so based on the current criteria, it ''should'' be on the list (at the very least, in the "disputed" section). I am aware that this cannot possibly be an exhaustive list, regardless of the inclusion criteria, but if ] makes the list, then important pseudoscientific concepts should also be included also. If this list is going to be useful at all, the criteria need to be clearly defined, and the majority of important concepts meeting the criteria should be included, whether they have a substantial following or not. —&nbsp;<font face="Verdana">]</font> <sup>'']''</sup> 04:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

::Again, Davkal, you are misrepresenting the situation. You are quoting the lead but putting your own comments to get your own results. Do you think that people just walk around and call things PS all the time? All of the things on this list have reliable sources for their inclusion as PS. With regards to the actual name of PS, there are a variety of synonyms for PS, such as junk science which would still be the same thing. Thirdly, just because there is ongoing research into a topic does not mean it is scientific by any means. Research does not automatically convey a title of scientific. I won't go to the trouble of listing examples, but I suppose if you are going to argue, I might have to provide some. And Diego, I do agree there are many more topics that can and should be included in here but this is where the list is now. There probably is not a reason that these haven't been listed just the fact no one has thought to do it yet. The criteria is already clearly defined in the lead. If we want to rewrite the lead in order to allow the reader to better understand it, that is a solid idea. But the criteria is already there. Remember, this is just a list and by no means exhaustive. ] 05:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

:::It would be helpful, Baegis, if you focused in the points made rather than on other ones. The gist of my point is this: it is consistent with all of the first three paragraphs (the inclusion criteria) that not one single item on the list be PS. It is totally inconsistent with the title of the article that any item in the list not be PS. The certainty of the title is therefore completely undermined by the uncertainty of the inclusion criteria. You need to change the title to something more appropriate.] 20:26, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

: I agree that the current title is '''inacceptable''' for Misplaced Pages. ] 11:07, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

== Evidence unrelated to demarcation ==

We need clarity about whether evidence unrelated to demarcation is allowed here. In the anthroposophic medicine and EHS entries, for example, studies are included that relate to efficacy or lack of effect found. Do all such studies belong to the articles on these subjects, and not here?

There are deeper questions here, some of which we can't go into due to our limited function as editors drawing upon others' conclusions: is something pseudoscience because it is not testable (in which case no empirical evidence, pro or con, ''could'' be brought by definition) or is something pseudoscience because it is tested and found wanting? Can something be pseudoscience if empirical tests show efficacy - do not positive results in rigorous, peer-reviewed trials provide scientific proof? ] 08:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

== Hypnosis ==

Hypnosis isn't a pseudo-science. Past life regression and other silly claims are, but hypnosis is a well documented subset of psychology, sometimes also called "altered state" or "suggestible state" in the literature. The mechanism of how it works might be disputed, but the fact it works is not. This is different to, for example, homeopathy, which has no mechanism and no proof of efficacy ] 17:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
:Misplaced Pages talk pages are not for discussions about a given article's topic(s). '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 17:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
::I don't think that's so out of line given the nature of this article. However, the point remains that we have to stick to what the sources say, and we can't just ] on these issues. We have a source saying hypnosis is pseudoscience, so it goes in. --] <sup>] ]</sup> 18:10, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
:::The source given is the Skeptic's Encyclopedia. Do we has the exact text for the hypnosis entry in this book, so we can see if how it explains hypnosis to be pseudoscience? Currently, what we have in this article seems to just state that certain explanations of hypnosis are pseudoscientific while certain explanations are completely scientific. It seems that the practice of hypnosis is generally well-regarded in the science community even though the effects haven't been completely explained yet. As we begin to understand to working of the subconscious mind more and more, I would be more likely to call hypnosis an emerging science than a pseudoscience. But that's just my opinion and I don't have a source for that. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 18:48, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

::::Once more: let's ensure that ''every entry'' actually quotes the cited text that states the field is a pseudoscience. This citation can be in the main text or a footnote. Citations stating that the field has failed to produce scientific proof do not show that the field is a pseudoscience; many scientific theories (string theory) are unproven. Citations stating that tests have shown no efficacy to a treatment do not show that the field is a pseudoscience; many proposed medicines have been tested scientifically and failed to show efficacy. These are all part of the scientific method. The text will have to relate directly to pseudoscience.
::::At the moment, it appears that the current entry for hypnosis should be revised to say, at most, "certain explanations of hypnosis" -- if there are supportive quotes for this provided. Finally, if there are citations that indicate that hypnosis is a topic for scientific investigation, these should go in too. (Remember something called the NPOV policy?) That's why we need a section for topics for which the categorization as pseudoscience is verifiably disputed. ] 00:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

== Awaiting wording that justifies classification here ==

I propose that, while the page is protected and we cannot enter new material there, we should gather the justifying quotations that are being used to classify entries here as pseudoscience. (It may be that we need to discuss criteria here too.) I suggest that we use this space to list quotations for each entry that does not already have a quotation (not just citation) that justifies classifying the topic as pseudoscience. I'll make a start with two categories that look like they contain controversial areas: ] 00:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
:'''Health and Medicine''' - list quotations here
#Anthroposophic medicine
#<s>Attachment therapy</s> - Please forbear on mass deletion without at least checking the main article for supporting references. ] (]) 07:05, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
#<s>Bates method</s> ] (]) 20:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
#<s>Magnetic therapy</s> - ] (]) 03:20, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
#<s>Faith healing</s> - NSF, CSI, Enc. of PS ] (]) 22:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
#Hypnosis
#Scientific racism - clear skeptical PS refs. with quotes, but could use a scientific body or review article reference as well. ] 20:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
:'''Mysticism, Religion and Belief''' - list quotations here
#Anthroposophy
#Feng Shui
#Meditation
#Neoshamanism
#Reincarnation
#<s>Shroud of Turin</s> While this is primarily a religious/mystical belief, claims of origin that do not account for the scientifically determined age of the cloth and other evidence must be regarded as pseudoscience. ] (]) 21:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

:Eldereft has found citations for almost half of these. I propose that we give this one more week and then archive the remaining areas awaiting verification. ] 11:53, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

:: Sounds reasonable. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 19:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

:::I would like time to find references for Anthroposophic medicine (Anthroposophy I think should go, as it is as far as I can tell more like a religious/philosophical movement than properly pseudoscience), Faith healing, and hypnosis. A week sounds fair enough for anyone to raise further objections, but I do not know that I will have the time for reference hunting this week. Of course these three items should not remain simply on my say-so, but if whoever culls the list comments these out instead it would save me the time of finding the old text and perhaps inspire someone else to seek out justification. ] 21:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

::::We can keep anything that's actively being pursued, of course; I'd like to move really inactive and unverified listings out. ] (]) 23:02, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

:'''Expanded list'''
:I guess that makes this a good time to dump my own deletionist list. Generally I am in favor of inclusionism (''e.g.'' the Shroud of Turin is itself a religious object, but certain claims have been scientifically disproven and pseudoscience is invoked in its defense), but a good-faith search has turned up nothing strong enough to - in my mind - meet the inclusion criteria for this list.

#Levitation
#Materialization - no, an article saying it works like on Star Trek does not qualify
#Séances - debunked by Houdini when he started the tradition of stage magicians promoting rationalism, but I have not found any scientific claims or investigation.
#Spiritualism
#Close encounters
#Out of body experiences
#Animal mutilations
#Tutankhamun's curse
#Laundry balls - notability?
#Stock market prediction - I think this fits better under garden variety fraud
:::] 21:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

::::I am cleaning up as discussed above. See ] for archived items. ] (]) 18:25, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::I saw no ] for this action, and so I reverted you. ] (]) 18:36, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

== Category: disputed ==

I have moved mysticism et al. to the disputed area, as it is unusual to consider religious and spiritual phenomena pseudoscientific and because we have no confirmation of anything more than a listing in a table of contents in an encyclopedia as a verifiable source for most of these being included here at all.] 20:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

: I support this decision. I think we are trying to lump too much into this list with too few sources. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 00:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

::I agree also. Are we back to a revert war after only 6 hours? It seems ] put forward a ] which was discussed and adjusted as a result of that discussion. Evidently some editors do not want to discuss and develop a mutually acceptable compromise, but merely that might be based on the consensus, citing ]. --] 03:55, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

On 2 November 2007 I requested verification that the entries above are actually cited as pseudoscientific. The need for such verification came about because previous "citations" had merely been to a table of contents; no support for classification here existed in the actual articles. I suggest that citations be provided that use the term "pseudoscientific" or an equivalent (this is what the introduction claims of the items included on the list) or else the topics should be removed from this list. ] 13:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

: Clearly this is the way to proceed. Given that no one has responded however leads me to believe that the above items should be removed. If someone feels that one or all of them should be added back in, they should discuss it here in an appropriate manner rather than revert war. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 18:05, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

::There has been no response to this request for verification. I suggest that entries that remain unverified be removed to an archive for storage until verification can be provided. ] 14:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

::: Go for it. If someone wishes to revert, they should discuss it here first. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 01:24, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

::::Why revert to "Topics related to pseudoscience by skeptical groups"? What's that supposed to mean in English? ] (]) 02:31, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

::::: Personally I think the entire subsection isn't even necessary; we should just stick to the topics with the most respected scientific bodies outright and consistently describe as pseudoscience (otherwise this list will remain a POV battleground). But I take it to mean that here are topics which some skeptical groups have related pseudoscience to. The problem with naming it otherwise is that some of the references don't provide an outright pronouncement that such-and-such is considered a pseudoscience but some skeptical group. With this ambiguity in the reference comes the ambiguity in the subsection title. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 02:39, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

::::::Considering the ambiguity of your response and the fact you inserted a header that not only would violate NPOV but is also quite poorly written (what does it actually mean in english?), I have reverted it. ] (]) 07:07, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Or, better yet, sort the "big ones" list into the topical headings. I am not convinced (help with the references, anyone?) that ''e.g.'' ]s really count as pseudoscience, but I do not see anything not generally classifiable as non-rigorous fables. ] (]) 07:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Eldereft, thanks for your vcontinued good work in finding better references to support this list. You are making the need to rename this section unneeded. Thank you. I agree with you that things such as ]s really have no place on this list as they are in themselves not really used/misused as a science. Supernatural? Sure. A pseudoscience? Not really. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 08:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::The header was changed to reflect the fact that a number of entries are simply included in encyclopedias of pseudoscience, thus have some relation to the subject, but are apparently not actually called pseudoscientific - or at least there is no verification that the latter is the case. The above suggestions are excellent; there needs to be clarity about what is considered pseudoscientific by a broad consensus, what is called that (or its equivalent) by a narrow range of sources (often only one), and what nobody citable has called pseudoscientific and thus should not be included in the list.
:::::::::Plaudits to Eldereft; the citation question is finally moving somewhere!] (]) 20:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

==Confused and confusing==
This article seems a bit of a jumble at the moment. That is, it is split into various sections depending on the type of source for the entries, but then in many cases the entries in those sections don't match the sources, and the sources themselves are not alway really what they appear to be. Firstly, for example, Dianetics and Crystal Healing are in the first section, but do not have sources from scientific organizations and so should probably be in a different section. Secondly, almost everything on the list of "paranormal subjects" is sourced to skeptical groups and/or paranormal groups rather than scientific organizations - one of the few science links (32, the "NASA" link) is actually an advertisement for a radio program!. Thirdly, some of the main sources used in the first section could only euphemistically be called "assertions by mainstream, specialized scientific bodies (e.g., a society of plasma physicists) or one or more national- or regional-level Academies of Science". They are, rather, a motley collection and it is therefore a bit of a stretch to move from these rather singular sources to the conclusion "The following have broad consensus concerning their pseudoscientific status". <s>One source, (33 - a science source), for example, actually says "according to one group studying such phenomena, pseudoscience topics include...", which means that the assertion of a mainstream scientific body has, in this case, simply reported (as a report) what "one group" (CSICOP) has said. And therefore this does not mean we have a mainstream science source asserting the pseudoscientific status of the entries, rather than merely reporting that others have asserted this.</s> I've struck out the last section because it seems the source does then go to call many of those same things pseudoscience.

Having read the comments above, it seems that Hgilbert's suggestion should be extended to the rest of the article so that proper attribution can be presented here and the article can then be reordered accordingly. ] (]) 14:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

:I deleted the radio program reference (one of four, makes little difference to the list). ] (]) 15:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

::Extending Hgilbert's excellent suggestion for corroborating quotations in the body or reference - working on it, as I concur. You can too! I would not venture to hazard what sort of consensus was actually reached the other week, but it certainly makes the article better. These quotes should be from respected scientific bodies or notable skeptical organizations, and ideally may usually be found by checking the extant references or by consulting the main articles. My vision of a perfect entry would be: Name; brief description from main article (including legitimate scientific uses where applicable); quote with reference to scientific consensus (''e.g.'' Multiple well-constructed studies have found no evidence for X, nor is there any known physical mechanism by which it might function.); quote with reference to sceptical organization (''e.g.'' X is pseudoscience / quackery / fraud / woo / casuistry / lies / deception / sham / false / mumbo-jumbo / hoax / hocus-pocus / ''&c.''). Also useful would be a parallel project to get multiple sources for each entry (no more "table of contents" arguments, yes?).

As for the WP:RS assertion of ] - mainstream scientific bodies are usually much more concerned with evidence-based theories, so I expect quotes will be forthcoming only for those theories which have attained sufficient notoriety to require debunking (Apollo Moon Hoax) or spur a series of double-blind trials (electromagnetic hypersensitivity). The list certainly needs to be organized and pruned, but if you find a candidate for removal (an entry for which a reasonable search did not yield anything resembling a scientific/skeptical consensus), please at least consider discussing it here first. ] (]) 19:01, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

::I think if this article is to be a list of '''pseudosciences''' then the list of things cited above that can lead to inclusion ("X is pseudoscience / quackery / fraud / woo / casuistry / lies / deception / sham / false / mumbo-jumbo / hoax / hocus-pocus") might need to be considerably shortened. My point, and what I take Hgilbert to be requesting with his list idea, is that we cite here the entries along with the source and the relevant quote where each entry is labeled pseudoscience, or junk science, or bogus science, or maybe quackery. To simply cite a source saying something is false, or a lie etc., or to simply provide arguments to that effect, is not really appropriate. It is surely a given for Wiki that where a claim is made we at least have one source making that claim in a straightforward manner. ] (]) 21:58, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

:::I did not mean to suggest that this become some sort of repository for all manner of magical thinking and April Fool's Day stunts (the list is already somewhat unwieldy, and will probably always remain incomplete), but in the context of a statement to the effect that rigorous science denies a purported phenomenon or effect, more colloquial terms should be allowable. Put another way, a free energy corporation would be committing fraud, and backing it up with pseudoscience. A report describing the fraud and why the purported science just ain't so could be a relevant reference. Simply providing arguments to the effect is, of course, ]. ] (]) 00:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

::::As long as we don't drift into original research. Research that shows the absence of a claimed effect is ''not'' grounds for inclusion here, though it may well be grounds for a verifiable authority to conclude that the phenomenon is part of pseudoscience, at which point we can quote this authority. We would be doing original research in making the link ourselves. ] 15:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

== Applied Kinesiology ==

The addition of Applied Kinesiology based upon these references is a violation of ] and ]. None of these articles are peer review. 2 of these refs are written by partisan Quackwatch writers. One is a popular press book. There maybe good reason to include AK on this page, but these references are inadequate. --] (]) 10:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

:QW is a reliable source for what skeptics consider pseudoscience. Peer review is not required for demarcation. See ]. ] (]) 13:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

:: The problem as I see it is that Applied Kinesiology is in the wrong part of this page given the sources. The criteria for inclusion in the top portion of the page (where AK currently resides) reads as such: ''Indicative of this are assertions by mainstream, specialized scientific bodies (e.g., a society of plasma physicists) or one or more national- or regional-level Academies of Science.'' Skeptics Dictionary nor ] meet either of these criteria. Given these references, AK might be better suited under the section of the article entitled: Topics which skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific or closely associated with it. Here the criteria reads: ''The following are subjects closely related to pseudoscience by notable skeptical bodies such as the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry''. However, now that I am thinking about it, Skeptics Dictionary is just a book and not a "skeptical body" and NCAHF is a self-published site which may indeed (or may not) represent the opinions of notable skeptical bodies, but in itself, NCAHF is not a skeptical body. I am fairly certain that if we dig, we can find better sources (for either an Academy of Science level source or even a notable skeptical body) which explicitly states the opinion that AK is a pseudoscience. Until then, I would recommend striking this one off this list for failure to meet the inclusion criteria. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 17:41, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

:::Agreed --] (]) 02:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

:::: I found a CSICOP entry which essentially characterizes AK as pseduoscience. It's a little indirect but essentially it is there. Let me know if this is satisfactory. Again, I still think the entire "skeptic bodies" section of this article is pointless and essentially a ] within the article, and thus should be excised from the article. But while it is here, I will make it as good as it can be reference/inclusion-wise. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 04:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

My problems with this citation:
* Citation does not support the text of the article. The article's text states that
:''Applied kinesiology is a means of medical diagnosis which proponents believe can give feedback on a patients health. The most common method, called the arm pull-down test, involves the patient lying down and holding up their dominant arm while the practitioner pushes against it.''
The citation states that
:''... procedure known as Applied Kinesiology that is used to test muscles for "weaknesses" caused by certain food or chemical pathogens. Applied Kinesiology is a scientifically discredited procedure. For example, Kenny, Clemens, and Forsythe (1988) found that those using the techniques did no better than chance in determining nutritional status using muscle testing. ''
*Applied Kinesiology is made up of many many procedures. This citation discusses one procedures in Applied Kinesiology, that is muscle testing for 'weaknesses caused by chemical pathogens.' The Kenny et al reference used to discredit Applied Kinesiology in this citation is a study done on another procedure, testing for 'nutritional deficiencies via muscle testing.' In effect he used a 'nutritional deficiencies via muscle testing' study to disprove 'muscle weaknesses caused by chemical pathogens' or to disprove all Ak procedures.

I don't think we're going to find a citation that will discredit all AK. Perhaps one or more that call in to question a particular procedure. This is the problem with a young science, that is, a 'phenomenon' in the early stages of scientific study. Some procedures will be discarded or discredited while other may be substantiated. The same phenomena exists with conventional medicine eg. the history of coronary bypass surgery. Should we add a line for all those conventional medicine techniques that have been discredited? --] (]) 12:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


:The removed very much does indicate that applied kinesiology is pseudoscience: <blockquote>"Many of are known to be absurd (oxygen traversing skin, wet compresses aborting strokes, water “memory,” the iris manifesting a homunculus, “transfer of neural energy” , etc.); others are highly implausible and easily explained by ordinary mechanisms (applied kinesiology by ideomotor action, colonic “cleansing” by the norm of reciprocity, etc.); and still others are barely plausible but highly unlikely and dangerous and, unlike aspirin, are without any empirical support (eg, St. John's wort as an anti-HIV drug)."</blockquote>
:Please consider also a quick search of PubMed results for "applied kinesiology", which easily reveals such gems as:
:*"When AK is disentangled from standard orthopedic muscle testing, the few studies evaluating unique AK procedures either refute or cannot support the validity of AK procedures as diagnostic tests." (Haas, Cooperstein, and Peterson, 2007)
:*"The working hypothesis was the assumption that the reliability of AK would not exceed random chance." (paper confirms) (Staehle, Koch, and Piotch, 2005)
:*"There is little or no scientific rationale for these methods . Results are not reproducible when subject to rigorous testing and do not correlate with clinical evidence of allergy." (Wuthrich, 2005)
:Conclusion: to the extent that it conforms to evidence-based musculoskeletal physiotherapy, AK works fine (though not for the reasons postulated). Any use to diagnose physical, chemical, or mental imbalances must be regarded as pseudoscience. If you can find a reliable source demonstrating any other evidence for applied kinesiology, by all means include it. Please do not, however, expect detailed debunking of "the vast number of A.K. procedures which have been described in the past 40 years" unless it can be demonstrated that they do not fall into the above broad categories. The above linked list of Approved Procedures (with selected descriptions) does not satisfy this.
:] (]) 11:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

::: Eldereft, I'm sure you'll recognize this when it's explained, but some of your wording above can be confusing. In your "Conclusion" you wrote: "to the extent that it conforms to evidence-based musculoskeletal physiotherapy, AK works fine...." I think you fail to distinguish between AK and scientific ], which is what PTs use (I'm one). AK practitioners use manual muscle testing (MMT) and take it a step further into diagnosis of various conditions, which is where they get into trouble. They have stepped through the rabbit hole and have joined Alice in Wonderland. MMT is fine, but they misuse it. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 18:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
:::: That is what I meant, yes. Hopefully the final(???) article version will reflect the crucial distinction between evidence-based therapies and superficially similar pseudoscientific practices. The main article correctly makes note of this. Also, please do not be discouraged from sharing your experiences and expertise (within the bounds of OR and any applicable COI, of course) to ensure that the article accurately reflects reality. ] 08:28, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Please comply with WP:CON
:::: My edit ''"Applied kinesiology is a pseudoscientific means of medical diagnosis which proponents believe can provide feedback on a patient's health through assessment of muscle response as various stimuli are applied. The practice of applied kinesiology can overlap with chiropractic and evidence-based orthopædic physiotherapy, but AK-specific procedures and diagnostic tests have no scientific validity."''

::::You edit is ''"Applied kinesiology is a pseudoscientific means of medical diagnosis which proponents believe can provide feedback on a patient's health through assessment of muscle response as various stimuli are applied. While the practice of applied kinesiology is a commonly used chiropractic technique, and scientific kinesiology (manual muscle strength testing) is a fundamental part of evidence-based orthopædic physical therapy, AK-specific procedures and diagnostic tests have no scientific validity."'' --] 18:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

::::: PTs also practice AK. In fact a whole host of practitioners use the questionable technique including doctors, dentists, chiropractors, osteopaths, naturopaths, physiotherapists, and nutritionists. I think it may show a conflict of interest on your part, Fyslee, that you keep removing your own profession from the description of this practice on this article. Please be aware of at least the appearance of this ].

::::: On a side note, I think we are delving way too much into this in the list article. We should describe the technique provide a ] to attribute the claim of it meeting the inclusion criteria of this list and simply Wikilink to the main article for more information.

::::: I think Anthon01's version is more in compliance with how this list article should be written. However, I this it is unnecessary to state "pseudoscientific" in the description, especially given the inclusion criteria of the list. My version would read:

::::: ''Applied kinesiology is a means of medical diagnosis which proponents believe can provide feedback on a patient's health through assessment of muscle response as various stimuli are applied. The practice of applied kinesiology can overlap with chiropractic and evidence-based orthopædic physiotherapy, but AK-specific procedures and diagnostic tests have no scientific validity.''

::::: I would even consider losing the last sentence entirely, if the matter is dealt with on the actual ] article.

::::: -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 18:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::: Indeed there are some PTs who use it. No one is denying that. Practically every profession has members who do odd things that the profession itself does not approve. The PT profession does use MMT (scientific kinesiology), but not AK. BTW, I didn't remove PT, I only clarified the normal use of MMT by PTs. As far as your COI charge, be very careful when you live in a glass house yourself, since you are the one who constantly deletes mention of chiropractic. The improved version is below and Anthon01 can explain his objections there. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 18:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

::::::: Above you state both "there are some PTs who use it" and "the PT profession does use MMT (scientific kinesiology), but not AK". Which is it? It can't be both. Or am I missing something? As far as glass houses, you know well that I am not a chiropractor, I don't work for a chiropractor, and I'm hardly even a chiropractic patient. You are a PT, you maintain a very anti-chiropractic blog, you participate in very anti-chiropractic groups on and off the web, and your anti-chiropractic agenda has been clearly demonstrated on Misplaced Pages from the moment you arrived here until today. I am tell you that here you have the appearance of ] and per your ], I am telling you to be careful. ''Fyslee is cautioned to use reliable sources and to edit from a NPOV. He is reminded that editors with a known partisan point of view should be careful to seek consensus on the talk page of articles to avoid the appearance of a COI if other editors question their edits.'' -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 18:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: You are indeed "missing something." Rogue PTs can do things that are not part of what the profession teaches or approves, just as rogue MDs can practice quackeries the medical profession considers nonsense. That doesn't make their practices part of PT or medicine. As to the rest of your misplaced attack on me, you have at least as big a COI here, considering you have declared that you are here "to protect the reputation of chiropractic" and are definitely quite "partisan" in your attempts to do just that everywhere at Misplaced Pages, and especially on this article. (If Anthon01 wants to check it out, the history of this article contains some pretty good evidence of how far you are prepared to go to keep any mention of chiropractic out of the article.) That's why I cautioned you about glass houses. No one is innocent here and we both live in glass houses, so don't try to act holy. Keep in mind that your false charges at that ArbCom were noticed by many and it can backfire on you. So I suggest you stop mentioning it. BTW, I am not involved in any groups anymore, and haven't been for some time, nor do I maintain my websites or blog much at all. What you see here is what you get, just an ordinary retired PT who is a skeptic and enjoys editing Misplaced Pages. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 23:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

::::::: You classified "the normal use of MMT by PTs" and inadvertently left out any references to PT use of it. I'm sure it was done unintentionally.(AGF) I didn't realize you have a possible COI issue. Your edit does sounds anti-chiropractic. --] 18:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: I only corrected an inaccuracy (AK is not part of PT as was clearly implied by the previous version) and clarified that PTs use MMT (scientific kinesiology, which is another bird). There is nothing anti-chiropractic about stating that the American Chiropractic Association has found that 43.2% of chiropractors use AK. That is no surpise considering it was invented by a chiropractor and has been aggressively marketed to them ever since. Even individual members of other professions take AK seminars and fall for it. I know that some PTs have tried for years to get the Danish Physiotherapy Association to include it as an officially accepted and condoned PT technique, but they have failed, and will likely continue to do so until there is much better evidence (right now there is zilch) for its use as a scientifically verified diagnostic method. I hope that answers your questions and allays any concerns. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 23:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
::::::::: Has the Danish Physiotherapy Association by any chance issued a position paper on AK? They sound like a relevant professional body whose considered opinion would have to meet the standards for inclusion. ] 08:34, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

::Include it where? Here on the talk page? --] 13:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
::Your edit is a huge improvement over the previous text. --] 14:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
:: I'm not sure why the Skeptics dictionary is considered a RS? --] 16:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

:::This looks like pretty substantial discreditation of AK, but we are still not justified in including it here without a source that links it to pseudoscience (as opposed to a disproved theory). ] 15:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

:::: There are references that are used that identify it as a pseudoscience. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 18:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::Thanks, and the improved version looks like a very well done entry. I want us to hold to this standard! ] 19:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
=== New version ===

'''Regarding your heading (Improved version). From ]'''

{{Quotation |# Keep headings neutral: A heading should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it.

* Don't praise in headings: You may wish to commend a particular edit, but this could be seen in a different light by someone who disagrees with the edit!
* Don't be critical in headings: This includes being critical about details of the article. Those details were written by individual editors, who may experience the heading as an attack on them.
* Never address other users in a heading: A heading should invite all editors to respond to the subject addressed.}}

I'm sure it was an oversight on your part. --] 20:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

: Definitely an innocent oversight. I suspect, considering what is pretty much standard practice around here, that 95% of editors are unaware of this. Thanks for teaching me something. You made my day! -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 23:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Here it is:

*''']''' is a pseudoscientific<ref name="atwood">Kimball C Atwood, IV, MD. , MedGenMed. 2004 Jan–March; 6(1): 33.</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=http://skepdic.com/akinesiology.html |title=Applied Kinesiology |accessdate=2007-07-26 |format= |work=The Skeptics Dictionary|author=Carroll, Robert Todd "These are empirical claims and have been tested and shown to be false" }}</ref> means of medical diagnosis which proponents believe can provide feedback on a patient's health through assessment of muscle response as various stimuli are applied. While the practice of applied kinesiology is a commonly used ] technique,<ref name=ACA_techniques> ]. AK is used by 43.2% of chiropractors.</ref> and scientific ] (manual muscle strength testing) is a fundamental part of evidence-based orthopædic ], AK-specific procedures and diagnostic tests have no scientific validity.<ref name='AK_Haas'> {{cite journal|title=Disentangling manual muscle testing and Applied Kinesiology: critique and reinterpretation of a literature review|journal=Chiropractic & Osteopathy|date=2007-08|first=Mitchell|last=Haas|coauthors=Robert Cooperstein, and David Peterson|volume=15|issue=|pages=|id=PMID 17716373 {{doi|10.1186/1746-1340-15-11}}|url=http://www.chiroandosteo.com/content/15/1/11|format=|accessdate=2007-11-30 }} "When AK is disentangled from standard orthopedic muscle testing, the few studies evaluating unique AK procedures either refute or cannot support the validity of AK procedures as diagnostic tests. The evidence to date does not support the use of for the diagnosis of organic disease or pre/subclinical conditions." </ref><ref name='AK_Wuthrich'> {{cite journal|title=Unproven techniques in allergy diagnosis|journal=Journal of investigational allergology and clinical immunology|date=2005|first=B.|last=Wurlich|coauthors=|volume=15|issue=|pages=86-90|id=PMID 16047707 |url=|format=|accessdate=2007-11-30 }} "There is little or no scientific rationale for these methods. Results are not reproducible when subject to rigorous testing and do not correlate with clinical evidence of allergy." </ref>


Now what are the complaints? -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 18:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

:Please give me time to get back to you. I need time to read the citations. Please comply with WP:CON. Reverted text should be discuss on talk page first to achieve consensus, before continuing. See chart in WP:CCC section. This is policy page. --] 18:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

:First impressions. This is a little commercial for PT and an attempted derogatory at chiropractic. I'm sure it was unintentional. It also leave out the fact that PTs also practice AK. Your modification of the text written mostly by Eldereft is an unnecessary edit. You're filling the reference with a disclaimer of sorts, PT good, Chiro bad. I understand you have an anti-chiro website? Is that true? --] 20:10, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

:: I agree with Anthon01. It does read with a lopsided POV and seems to further Fyslee agenda of chiropractic bashing while protecting his own profession. Further, I believe that the use of the word "pseudoscientific" should be left out because it asserts this description as factual rather than being a POV description. Further, the sources don't support this topic even being included in this list. The inclusion criteria is quite clear. If we are going to leave this entry in the "Skeptical Group" portion of this list, then I suggest we get a source from a notable skeptical organization such as CSICOP. (Again, I feel that the whole "fields that skeptical groups consider to be..." section should be completely excised from this article. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 20:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

::: No need to continue the personal attacks. They only distract from the text and sources being used. There is definitely no chirobashing from me here. If you don't like the chiropractic(!!) sources that discredit AK, then take it up with them. These are good sources and this is an article about pseudoscience. Please don't be deletionist in your attempts to keep the word "chiropractic" out of this article. As explained above, your issues are really not with me, but with the ACA, Goodheart, and Haas, ''et all'', all chiropractors. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 00:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

::::I just read the references; I had no clue what AK was hitherto. This is a case of something clearly identified as pseudoscience in the literature and scientifically demonstrated to have no validity. Good sources, solid case; but feel free to add any countervailing evidence from peer-reviewed sources. ] 14:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

::::* Please modify title of section as it is a violation of policy.
::::* Personal attacks? Where? I didn't see any.
::::* This topic in 2 sections is very confusing. How do we simplify.
::::* You said above ''"I only corrected an inaccuracy (AK is not part of PT as was clearly implied by the previous version) and clarified that PTs use MMT (scientific kinesiology, which is another bird)."'' The text before you edited it said ''"Applied kinesiology is a means of medical diagnosis which proponents believe can provide feedback on a patient's health through assessment of muscle response as various stimuli are applied. The practice of applied kinesiology can overlap with chiropractic and evidence-based orthopædic physiotherapy, but AK-specific procedures and diagnostic tests have no scientific validity."'' There is nothing inaccurate about that statement. They do overlap.
::::* --] 14:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding "personal attacks", the comments (which ] has leveled at me numerous times) were focused on my person, my POV, and my affiliations (and supposed affiliations), all of which violates ] and ]. They were not focused on the text and were thus a distraction, so let's leave it behind us and get back to the text...

* '''NB''': I only edited the last part, which read: ''"The practice of applied kinesiology can overlap with chiropractic and evidence-based orthopædic physiotherapy,.."''

I did it because, as ] realized (after I pointed it out), it contained a misunderstanding which I corrected. That wording mentioned both chiropractic and physiotherapy. I did not introduce that, but it is perfectly appropriate, it just needed to be tweaked to be accurate. AK is a commonly used chiropractic technique that is officially recognized by the profession. Here's just The ACA even lists it and the percentage of chiropractors who use it (43.2%). The misunderstanding I mention is in regard to the wording that makes it seem like AK is a part of PT. ] (manual muscle testing, not AK) is part of PT, and AK has no part in PT, even if some few rogue PTs may practice it and any number of other unapproved and quackish practices. That doesn't make those practices a part of PT or an overlapping with PT.

I not only corrected the misunderstanding, I added to the understanding of the subject and provided some excellent references that everyone here will admit are certainly V & RS. The only part that could be considered an "overlap" is that all practitioners of AK use MMT, which is not what is unique to AK. The part that makes AK what it is doesn't overlap with PT at all. The only overlap occurs among chiropractors and AK practitioners: 100% of chiropractors use MMT and 43.2% use AK, and 100% of AK practitioners use MMT & AK. That '''is''' an overlap of (respectively) 43.2% and 100%. There is nothing critical or otherwise in that analysis. It is not my POV, but is pure fact based on extremely good references. Its accuracy is unassailable, and it definitely improves the section in several ways.

It should be noted that ] approves of my ("improved") version, as noted immediately before this section.

] has unilaterally deleted it without any proper justification. You will notice that in doing so he has fulfilled his mission here, which is (using his own words) "to protect chiropractic's reputation." The entry no longer mentions it at all, even though AK is an approved chiropractic technique used by nearly half the profession. I will leave it up to others to label that type of editing and editor. (If I state the facts, I might be accused of a personal attack....;-)

I have also changed the heading above. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 06:38, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

:: Wow, Fyslee. Please ]. You have pulled a statement completely out of context. I encourage you and others to go back to the discussion you point to from two years ago in which you ask me if I am protecting chiropractic reputation from a false risk statistic which you have been trying to blow out of proportion and include in that article (and several other articles) since you arrived at Misplaced Pages. Please stop these attacks and false accusations. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 17:24, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

:The statement in question "The practice of applied kinesiology can overlap with chiropractic and evidence-based orthopædic physiotherapy,.." on its face does not conflate AK with PT. Applied kinesiology overlaps with PT, chiropractic and a number of other disciplines (eg. tx of MS disorders). The statement clearly states 'overlap.' It doesn't state that AK is part of PT. The statement is not inaccurate. I agree with ]'s deletion as a compromise until we can come up with consensus on the text of that second sentence. Your statement "(If I state the facts, I might be accused of a personal attack....;-)" is in itself a personal attack. --] 15:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

:: There is no overlap. Period. AK may believe so, but PT doesn't. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 18:15, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

::: The ] disagrees with you: ''Today, practitioners who use applied kinesiology include chiropractors, naturopaths, physicians, dentists, nutritionists, physical therapists, massage therapists, and nurse practitioners.'' -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 17:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

:::: No disagreement at all: ''"Today, practitioners who use"'' voodoo, necrophilia, believe in UFOs and Santa Claus, etc. ''"include chiropractors, naturopaths, physicians, dentists, nutritionists, physical therapists, massage therapists, and nurse practitioners."'' Get the point? Lots of people use various practices without the practice necessarily being a part of their profession. It's just a part of their practice and no more. Authorized medical professionals who are inclined to use alternative therapies will often develop their own eclectic manner of practice that includes methods that are not approved by their profession. Such practitioners may become highly successful quacks and earn quite a bit before funning afoul of the law and getting busted for illegalities or other problems related to practicing substandard medicine. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 06:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

::::: Above you state that there is no overlap with PT and AK when according to the American Cancer Society there is. Perhaps I am not understanding what you mean by "overlap". Your above POV soapbox rant is frowned upon by ]. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 19:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::: You are not understanding me. What do you think the edit "overlap" means? Keep in mind that that edit is one editor's own word, and is not found in the sources. The ACA only lists a number of different practitioners who might happen to use it and says nothing about whether the practice is part of those professions or whether a majority or an extreme minority use it. What do you think "overlap" means here? What might be a better word so we can come to agreement on the matter? -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 06:41, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I think "overlap" is vague, but I think so is the separation between what practitioners of a certain profession do and what practices are part of the profession. The ACS clearly identifies several professions in which AK is practiced. However, I think all of this are details which should be reserved for the actual AK article rather than trying to hash it out here. The point of these lists here are to identify a claimed pseudoscience and to provide an RS ref to support that claim. Again, as discussed above and below, if we limited this article to just the most encyclopedic sources such as the various Academies of Science rather than bogging it down with the opinions of skeptical societies, this article would be much more on point and less contentious.
::::::: Finally, just a reminder to contribute to this discussion page to try and seek consensus before making on matters concerning this ongoing discussion. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 23:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::::The current version is very vague. I will restore the clearer explanation. ]] 23:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::::: Please don't restore as there is no consensus to do so yet. Please rather describe here your rationale and what you feel is vague and how it can be improved. Perhaps your rationale will help us reach a compromise. However, edit warring will not, so please refrain from doing so. Thanks. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 23:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::It can be improved by adding the clearer version. Everything is referenced and I do not see any problems with a better expalanation. ]] 23:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::: Please read the issues which other editors have above. These need to be reconciled first before we can reach a conclusion here. For instance, to me, all that needs to be said in this list is a brief description of what AK is and an RS ref which shows how AK meets the criteria of inclusion. Anything else seems unnecessary and would be better served on the actual ] article instead. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 23:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::::: I tried moving it to the AK article and Anthon01 repeatedly reverted it even though it was extremely well-sourced. He got blocked for edit warring for doing that. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 06:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::::A better explanation would greatly improve this article. The current version is vague and seems POV. I think keeping the references in the article are necessary. ]] 23:35, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::::: What is vague about this? ''Applied kinesiology is a means of medical diagnosis which proponents believe can provide feedback on a patient's health through assessment of muscle response as various stimuli are applied.'' This is a pretty precise definition of it. If the reader wants more info, the can always click on the wikilink and go the main article on AK. What you have added in reads: ''While the practice of applied kinesiology is a commonly used chiropractic technique, and scientific kinesiology (manual muscle strength testing) is a fundamental part of evidence-based orthopædic physical therapy, AK-specific procedures and diagnostic tests have no scientific validity.'' 1) This statement is misleading. 2) Describing MMT here confuses the issue and would be better served on the actual AK wiki article for this disambiguation. 3) The no scientific validity line is worded pretty definitively rather than sounding like the opinion of a skeptical organization. If this is a definitive conclusion of science, then AK should be listed in the top list with the proper scientific citations. Anyhow, what do you think should be made more clear here on this article? Please spell out your thoughts for us. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 23:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::The clearer version is referenced and NPOV. The vague version is very vague. ]] 23:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::: You are being vague. I know you feel that "your" version is clearer and that "my" version is vague. But you are not explaining your rationale. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 01:46, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Levine2112, you wrote above "1) This statement is misleading." in reference to this: ''While the practice of applied kinesiology is a commonly used chiropractic technique, and scientific kinesiology (manual muscle strength testing) is a fundamental part of evidence-based orthopædic physical therapy, AK-specific procedures and diagnostic tests have no scientific validity.''

What part is misleading? -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 06:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

== Chiropractic ==

You references are not WP:RS. Chiropractic is currently being peer-reviewed. That process began in earnest in the early 1980's. The AMA lifted it's opposition to professional relationship between DCs and MDs in 1993 or thereabouts. --] (]) 23:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
:The refs are reliable and meet the inclusion criteria. ]] 23:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

::Published peer-review studies demonstrate chiropractic is in some circumstances more effective the medicine, and you want to use a non peer-review source to challenge a peer review claim? The sources are not of equal weight. WP:Policy page states "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science." --] (]) 00:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

:::''The following are subjects closely related to pseudoscience by notable skeptical bodies such as the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (formerly CSICOP). Some of these items are not considered pseudoscientific by these groups in and of themselves: only certain aspects, explanations, and/or applications of them have been thus classified. (See an item's description text for more information on this.)'' The refs provided meet the inclusion criteria. ]] 00:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

:::: I would say that the biggest problem with the refs you are using to make this demarcation is that they are over 10 years old. Much of the scientific research helping to confirm chiropractic as very much a science occurred in this time after the AMA was found guilty of conspiracy to suppress chiropractic research and unfair competition practices. See ] for full coverage.
:::: This conversation does hearken back to a point I made here several months ago. The notable skeptical bodies section should be excised from this list; and rather this article should only rely on the highest caliber of reliable sources (Academy of Sciences and peer-reviewed scientific publications). -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 01:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

::::: There are several problems with QuackGuru's addition:
:::::# It's too broad to just add "chiropractic". Chiropractic is a mixture, as stated by chiropractic professor and historian, Joseph C. Keating, Jr, PhD.: It is only the pseudoscientific aspects that should be listed here, primarily ], ], ] (yes, there are still a few chiros who are very active vitalists), and many of the claims made for ]s. Many other aspects of chiropractic would definitely not be appropriate to list here, so additions should be specific.
:::::# The sourcing could be much better. While the NESS is a good source for skeptical opinion, other sources of several types exist, including chiropractic ones like the one above by Keating. They should be used, in addition to the NESS.
:::::# The abrupt nature of the way it was added and readded (edit warring) is also a problem we have encountered before.
::::: Until it can be done better it should stay out. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 04:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::: How about finding some source less that 10 years old from something which actually meets the inclusion criteria laid out for us in this section of the article? Sorry, the NESS and Keating opinion pieces are over 10 years old; so old that it calls to question whether these opinions are currently valid. We keep running into these same issues with the "Skeptical Bodies" section. Again, I would move to scrap the whole section and only keep the top section which relies on ] of scientific consensus rather than weaker sources such as the often politically-motivated and financially influenced opinions of so-called notable skeptical bodies. The whole section turns this otherwise good article into a ]. Let's lose it and finally make this article into something of encyclopaedic merit. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 04:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

::::::: Did you lay out an argument for removing this section? If so where can I find it. Perhaps it should be revisited. Other encyclopedias seem to take on the subject of pseudoscience in a different way. Are there any WP guidlines or policy statements that might help in this regard? --] (]) 13:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Yes, nothing formal but the bulk of the conversations can be found in Archive 5, especially ] and ]. Your fresh input is most welcomed. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 19:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

==Categorization==

As has been noted above, the current categorization ("Concepts" vs. "Topics") might be taken to be misleading, and at the very least reduces the utility of the article by splitting the alphabetical list. Pretty close to every entry is considered controversial by at least someone, else there would be nobody espousing these theories. I therefore propose that we:
# merge the "Disputed" section into the main article (and metaphorically salt the earth);
# merge "Topics" and "Concepts", keeping the subcategorization scheme present in "Topics"; if it is felt that this gives the appearance of elevating the standard of evidence against topics which have been denounced only by noted skeptics or skeptical bodies, we could alternatively rename and reorganize the sections to reflect more accurately that not every topic is significant enough to have drawn a statement from scientific bodies;
# integrate into each description at least two ] justifying inclusion (including quotes in-line or as footnotes);
# note any evidence-based or scientific applications, as appropriate;
# ] with respect to the inclusion of current entries - at least check the main article and note any concerns here before summary deletion;
# accept that we are choosing to edit an inherently controversial page, and remember to treat co-editors as collaborators, not competitors.
] (]) 11:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

:This is an excellent basis. I would only add that at least one, and preferably both of the citations should include an explicit linkage of the theme to pseudoscience. One to pseudoscience and one broadly confirming an absence of effect found would also be pretty convincing. ] 16:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

== Christianity added to Mysticism, religion and belief ==

I'm happy this entry was made. It just underpins something I've been considering for awhile. I'd say this article is out of control. Everyone get a chance to add whatever they don't believe. So next will add Buddhism, Judaism, Satanism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Muslim, Hinduism, Atheism etc ... I think maybe Levine2112 has the right idea or at least a better idea. Make the page just about what "mainstream, specialized scientific bodies" consider Pseudo and get rid of all this tabloid type stuff. Leave the rest to the wacky websites. --] 23:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

: I see it has been deleted. It would be just as improper to add Christianity, or Judaism, or Buddhism, as it would be to add Chiropractic. There are certain aspects of them that can be added here, but not the whole thing. It is only the parts that make unfounded scientific claims that belong here. If they don't make scientific claims, they are just beliefs. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 00:33, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

::So how does mysticism qualify? ] 14:04, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Christianity and Judaism have nothing to add concerning the understanding of pseudoscience, though prayer(for health) or similar may be. This is an encyclopedia after all. Its about explaining the sum knowledge of the world. Therefore, something like chiropractic would actually be a prime candidate for this article as there are specific parts that are definitely pseudoscientific. The term chiropractic itself is an obscurantism which makes the subject a pseudoscientific subject if not a pseudoscience per se, which would still have the subject part of this list. The core theory of chiropractic would actually be the main reason for assigning it the label of pseudoscience per se. Just because one of its interventions "works" it does not make the bulk of the mess as pure as the driven chaps in white coats. Please refer to the title of this article. The main reasons for keeping christianity and judaism out is because they are beside the point. Subjects such as homeopathy and chiropractic are totally in the core of the point of pseudoscience, even if they are marginally effective (just one alternative and high risk option) for treating stiff joints in chiropractics case, and dehydration:) in homeopathy's case. ] 13:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

::::Agreed. But how does mysticism fit here? ] 13:59, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::Some mystics attempt to give their fields the appearance of scientific credibility. '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 02:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::I would say it would need to be more specific than mysticism. Myths tend to be used, and a lot of pseudoscientists do try to mystify their activities. New age mysticism could qualify but only if it were specific to a particular element, such as left right brain mystification (yin yang dichotomania). ] 03:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Ritual invocation of ] probably not, but any mention of crystal resonances that is not discussing ], ], ], ''et al.'' probably qualifies as PS. ] 04:41, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::::Loci are interesting in the context of this discussion. Drawing magical circles while including the four directions and five elements of the pentagram, and possibly the more superstitious elements of mnemonics () are related to the PS associations relevant to loci. Sure, crystals are the most glamorously flaky pursuit. I truly love the babblingly pursued notion that crystals have some sort of beneficial resonance. I grew up in an area where certain parts of the countryside (glades etc) were good for your tripes etc (who didn't?). Nothing better than reading a good book to raise the spirits though:) One could speculate that the brilliance of the author (eg, Richard Dorkins) is captured between the lines and when you open the book it just blows your hair back with the invigorating wind of inspiration - (probably something to do with the bards and drewids of the previous milleniums, the silk road, Atlantis, qi, the good side of the force and so on). I believe the pseudoscience related articles of Misplaced Pages could be about the most engaging pages on the internet as long as certain financially concerned editors didn't try to sanitize them so thoroughly. The wierd and wonderful beliefs of the world seem to be what vives le difference. I would truly love to report the chiropractic beliefs about levitation of the spine, NLP beliefs of the communicational field, and scientology beliefs concerning the aura. Or is it just the spirit of alcohol talking? What's the difference? Mysticism in general I suppose! Will it happen? Fat chance! We'll just have to put up with mediocrity until we get the web marketeers under control. ] 12:09, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

== Astrology ==
I would like to delete the current subheadings under astrology. At the very least, the wording which seems to imply that the only reason ] qualifies as pseudoscience is its lack of a sidereal calendar smacks of nNPOV and needs to be corrected. Both of the references I added tonight explicitly do not rely on any particular tradition. Alternatively, a better list of subheadings could be generated using ] (checking against Category:Astrology for completeness), but I think the current main heading text would suffice. Possibly another sentence could be added briefly outlining why this cannot be scientific. ] 07:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
:Would anyone object to an assumption of consensus on this issue? After, say, another week to allow sufficient time for any opposing viewpoints to be expressed, of course. ] (]) 07:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
::Well, I wouldn't say there's consensus, but I would say that ] gives you leave to go for it, especially at this point. --] <sup>] ]</sup> 20:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
:::I'd say go ahead and delete the subheadings. A link to the main topic is fine. Linking to every subtopic would be excessive clutter, imo. --]<sup>(])</sup> 07:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
::::Works for me, I just expected contention given its popularity. ] (]) 15:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

== Removing Skeptical Groups... and Disputed... sections ==
The idea has been toyed around with of limiting this list to just items which the highest level of scientific resources deem to be pseudoscience or pseudoscientific. These highest levels would include what is currently described as the inclusion criteria of the top-most list: ''The following have broad consensus concerning their pseudoscientific status. Indicative of this are assertions by mainstream, specialized scientific bodies (e.g., a society of plasma physicists) or one or more national- or regional-level Academies of Science.'' This list article has been contentious since its inception and the edit history makes it clear that the most of the contention is not derived from the top list, but rather the subsequent lists including "Topics which skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific or closely associated with it" and "Disputed subjects". In my opinion, these sections will never be free from contention because they are highly subjective, violate NPOV and come off making the rest of this article seem like a ]. My proposal here is to remove these sections. Thoughts? -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 23:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

: Since we are often dealing with fringe subjects which science ignores, we can't give these fringe practices a free pass and let them go without comment. We use the best sources we have, attribute them, and that's it. This constant attempt to raise the bar to unreasonable heights only serves to let them get away with their practices unnoticed. Misplaced Pages covers all subjects, including fringe subjects and the criticisms that are leveled at them. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 02:51, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

:: Fyslee, consider stepping back from yourself and reading what you wrote here. It reads to me like a mission statement where you want to use Misplaced Pages to attack topics which you deem "fringe". You say that raising the bar to an unreasonable height (which is actually the height set by ]) only serves to let "them" get away with their practices unnoticed. Who is the "them" you are referring to? This isn't about a free pass; this is about making an article which adheres to ] (among other core policies) and does not become a ]. Per your comment here, it seems to me that you are or want to use it as just that... a forked article in which you can push your POV of what you consider pseudoscientific and/or fringe. If it is a "fringe" subject which science is ignoring, then perhaps it isn't notable enough to include here. In essence, "pseudoscience" is a pretty major label to slap on something and I don't think we should be bandying it about lightly; especially in a serious encyclopedia. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 03:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Agreed. Additionally, conflating concepts with broad consensus with fringe subject reduces the stature of the page and Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 03:24, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

:::: Since you choose to focus on my own briefly worded opinion which came first, then let's just reverse the order of what I wrote and modify it a bit so you understand what I really meant and so you don't miss the part that shows how it is in harmony with the purpose of Misplaced Pages:

:::: Misplaced Pages covers all subjects, including fringe subjects and the criticisms that are leveled at them. Since we are often dealing with fringe subjects which science generally ignores, we can't give these fringe practices a free pass and let them go without comment here. We use the best sources we have, attribute them, and that's it. This constant attempt to raise the bar to unreasonable heights only serves to let them get away with their practices unnoticed because this prevents them from being covered by Misplaced Pages. Since Misplaced Pages should cover them if there are V & RS, then we should cover them here. In all other areas skeptical sources other than peer-reviewed research and statements from national organizations are allowed, and no legitimate reason for making an exception here has been proposed.

:::: As to "conflating" (blending) subjects, the subject of pseudoscience is large and includes subjects that are widely known by the scientific community, such as homeopathy. It also includes fringe subjects that aren't yet as well known by the scientific community, but are notable and can be properly referenced. These subjects are condemned as pseudoscience by scientific skeptics based on their understanding of what is and is not science. Scientific skeptics are the scientists and professionals who are in the trenches and who are often the first to examine and condemn these practices. It also includes areas where there is significant debate and lack of agreement within the scientific community, such as acupuncture, but where there are still V & RS that label it as pseudoscientific. They can't be ignored or left out of articles. The articles on such subjects should deal with all aspects, both the aspects that may possibly be scientifically credible (needling), and the aspects that are clearly pseudoscientific nonsense (meridians and acupuncture points). There are a number of such practices that are blends of good and bad. Here we present the criticisms of the pseudoscientific aspects.

:::: There is no reason why this list can't cover both large and small subjects. It's not a question of either/or, but of both/and. Let's not leave any bits of notable knowledge out of our coverage. We don't want Misplaced Pages to have any "knowledge holes." -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 06:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::I am in agreement with Fyslee on this point. It is not our position to weigh in on whether these topics are pseudoscience or not, but this is similar to the approach proposed by Levine. I know that you mean well, Levine, but the standard for inclusion here is not truth, but verifiability with reliable sources. Personal feelings should not play into the matter, but they often do so. And the labeling of these topics as pseudoscientific is often done on the actual article page and not here. We should take a cue from the actual articles in order to judge if they should be included in this list, as these articles are much more exhaustively researched than this list. And further to that point, this list will never be complete. It would be simply impossible to include every pseudoscientific topic, as not only would that list be unwieldy, it would also be impossible to construct. Using the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience as a main reference should also not be frowned upon, as it is one of the best sources available to us regarding these topics. Not the only one, but a very good starting point.

:::::With regards to removing the Disputed sections, please do not do so. In doing this, you are clearly showing a bias towards the concepts in this category. These articles were classified as pseudoscience on their own pages. If you want to argue that point, the place to do it is not here, but at the actual article. The exception to this is the organic farming, which is not currently classified as pseudoscience on the article page. I would be up for discussing the merits of that particular point, but none of the others. In fact, the disputed section should be cleaned up as much as possible and Homeopathy and Biorhythms placed in other sections. ] (]) 07:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::: You keep saying that we are trying to raise the bar to an unreasonable height, but this is exactly what is outlined by policy: ]:
::::::* The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals.
::::::* Items that are recommended in scholarly bibliographies are preferred.
::::::* Items that are signed are more reliable than unsigned articles because it tells whether an expert wrote it and took responsibility for it.
:::::: How do you see skeptical societies fitting in this paradigm? -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 07:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::::: You are mistaken. It is not "policy": it "]"

::::::::: You also leave out the sentences immediately proceeding what you quote above: ''"Misplaced Pages relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world. Items that fit this criterion are usually considered reliable. However, they may be outdated by more recent research, or controversial in the sense that there are alternative scholarly explanations. Misplaced Pages articles should point to all major scholarly interpretations of a topic."''

::::::::: It includes scholars and researchers, and certainly not only of the scientific type, otherwise many articles would be impossible to write and most would be emptied of references since they are not on scientific topics. You are attempting to demand scientific research quality sources on these topics, when such is not always available, simply because the scientific community generally ignores nonsense. There is no good reason for requiring better or other sources than is required in other types of articles. This interpretation would even leave us without newspapers as sources! If this article was dealing with the nitty gritty details of scientific matters like anatomy, physiology, and physics, it would be another matter, but we are dealing with nonsense here. Such matters only need the ordinary sources required for all articles here.

::::::::: The only other limitation on what types of sources should be used are based on the nature of the topic itself. "Pseudoscience" is a judgment call based on the opinion of sources friendly to modern science, IOW scientific sources, scientific skeptics, and allied sources. Pseudoskeptical sources should not be used to justify inclusion of topics to which the fringe objects (antibiotics, vaccinations, etc.) just to make a ] violation. This has happened a number of times here when pseudoskeptical editors get frustrated by their failures to get their favorite nonsense deleted from the list - they start adding subjects that science has long since considered perfectly good and scientific. That's why some discretion and commonsense (not fringe sense) needs to be used. This topic is a POV statement from science. We can't get away from that fact and that is no reason for failing to cover the subject. We just need to state the facts using good sources.

::::::::: This artificially high bar is another type of ] that we should ignore as a diversionary device. V & RS, that's where it's at. That's all we need. No subject should be allowed to fly under the radar because some editor demands that the radar aim right over that subject's head. Such precise aiming (a "sin of omission" designed to miss the target) demands prior knowledge of the location of the target and a desire to spare it from coverage here. In court such a sin of omission would be good enough evidence to bring a judgment as to the intent of the person who missed the target. As long as ordinary V & RS have picked up the subject on their radar, those sources can be included and the topic will often have become notable enough for inclusion. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 05:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::: Excuse me for wanting an actual scientific source to call something pseudoscientific. Honestly. Like a good skeptic, I demand proof from the best sources. Pseudoskeptics are those whose faith is satiated by sources which merely tell them what they want to hear. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 05:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::: The lower half of the list absolutely should not be removed. For one thing, some items in this section have references indicating a broad scientific consensus, making the division of the list arguably POV itself. My main argument against deletion, however, is that many of these theories are closely enough related in their proposed (un)physical basis that the scientific community is unlikely to issue a statement against every minor tweak or change of name. See my recent additions to the Astrology section for an example - there is no known or suspected physical mechanism by which it could possibly work, and it has been shown to have zero predictive power; renaming the constellations or dating by conception instead of birth would not mystically move the new system in to the realm of science. Certainly there are differences, just not meaningful ones. Similarly, every couple of years someone comes out with a new device which purports to violate one or more of the laws of thermodynamics. Invariably they are ignored by the vast majority of physicists, as we have been through this before. ] (]) 08:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::::: And, catching up on the excitement in the article, I see that ] has just demonstrated exactly why it is a little bit silly to maintain two separate lists. Certainly entries should (''briefly'') outline legitimate limitations, contentions, and concerns, but making a whole separate section is overkill and can lead to confusion in anyone actually trying to get information out of the article. ] (]) 08:24, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I strongly agree that the "lower" list should not be removed. We need all these topics there (perhaps even organic farming) if the list is to act as a meaningful and useful article. Not to list them would be a form of censorship or ]-pushing. Perhaps the right approach would in fact be to remove any distinction between "accepted by all as pseudo" and "described by some as pseudo", and lower the bar to include all on the same footing, as long as there is a ] and ] source which categorizes the topic as a pseudoscience. ] (]) 08:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::::Respectable skeptical societies cover the gaps between what is published in the articles you describe. Some of these topics are so laughable (in the eyes of the scientific community) they would never be throughly vetted in order to meet what I can only assume is an unreasonably high level that you are advocating. Skeptical societies and organizations give us reliable sources for inclusion. Eliminating them will only serve to trim the list and harm the neutrality of the article. But again, I will go back to my previous point which you failed to address, Levine. If you want to debate or argue for a topic being included in pseudoscience, take it to that specific article's talk page. It will surely not be excluded if it is marked as pseudoscientific on it's own page. That would just be inane. Nearly all the items listed in the noted section have a big ole pseudoscience tag on the article page. ] (]) 09:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

::::::::: Well let's test this. I pick a topic at random which I know nothing about... ]. Yes there is a category:pseudoscience label on the article, but I just read through the article and this is the only mention of pseudoscience throughout the article. Sure there is discussion about the scientific validity of graphology, but nowhere do I see a RS declaration that it is indeed pseudoscientific. So I don't understand. Who is labeling graphology a pseudoscience? Is it the scientific community? Is it a skeptical organization? Is it a consumer group? Or is it just the POV of some Wikipedians? In my mind, "respectable" skeptical societies are not reliable sources for anything other than their opinion. I am a skeptic but far be it from me to join a group of people who get together to decide on what they don't believe. It seems kind of silly. Again, pseudoscience is far to contentious of a label to allow editors to slap on articles or items on this list based solely on the opinions of skeptical organizations (often times feeling the pressures of political or financial motivations). Pseudoscience is an absolute term that should be dictated by science, not by whim of skeptics. To me, it is clear that this section of this article weakens it and turns it into a POV Fork and therefore must go. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 18:23, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::: Fyslee recently said that chiropractic didn't belong on this page. According to a 2002, CSICOP article chiropractic belongs on this page, due to its lack of scientific validity. <ref>http://www.csicop.org/si/2002-01/chiropractic.html</ref> <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

<undent>Note that I did not say that all of the tags were correct. It is not the place of this list to make judgment calls about pseudoscience or what we believe constitutes it. That is the place of the RS'. If you have an issue with ] being placed in pseudoscience, discuss it on that article's talk page. Not here. I am still confused by your mention of the "whim of skeptics". Do skeptics run about and mark everything pseudoscience? Last I checked they did not. As they have been used as RS in other articles, they surely have some method for determining pseudoscience. And in regards to bowing to political whims, I'd like to actually see proof of the statement. And with regards to the comment about chiropractic, that is a giant can of worms. ] (]) 19:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

: Yes, it is a can of worms and is the "elephant in the room". As the flagship for all of alternative medicine and one of the most criticized forms of alternative medicine, with a long tradition of attacks and accusations for pseudoscience and quackery, it is peculiarly odd (but definitely not by chance) that it is not included here. Strong efforts have been directed at keeping it off this list, and such unwikipedian actions that violate a purpose of Misplaced Pages (to cover all subjects as thoroughly as possible) needs to stop. It will take a superhuman effort and intense work to counteract the disruption that has and will occur whenever an attempt to include it is made. That's all in the history of this list.

: I have indeed previously stated that chiropractic (as a whole profession) should not be on this list, but I have also stated the opposite because the whole profession is based on and identifies itself with ]. In fact its legal basis for billing and existence in the USA is tied to it. That is definitely a pseudoscientific belief leading to unscientific, quackish, and illegal practices within the profession. The reason I have equivocated was my own cowardly and unwikipedian attempt to compromise, calm troubled waters, and spare the feelings of honest, hard working, chiropractors, some of whom don't believe in it. Yes, they do exist and don't deserve the criticism their profession gets because of such beliefs.

: The term "chiropractic" could be included by using the V & RS of scientists, scientific skeptics, journalists, and others, but an editor is trying to exclude such sources in an obvious attempt to protect chiropractic's reputation. This list has included chiropractic at various times and he or his close allies have always removed it. If he couldn't argue against the sources, then he has tried to exclude all such sources (as he does right above), thus also protecting others of his favorite topics.

: The chiropractic topics that can be included are:
:* ],
:* ],
:* ], and the pseudoscientific claims made for
:* ]s. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 06:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

:: Too bad this isn't a list of things which Fyslee deems to be pseudoscience. This just highlights what a ] this article has become. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 07:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Well, if chiropractic qualifies here, then it should be included. Are you referring to Levine? Yes, it does seem quite strange that a "skeptic" appears to whole heartedly support a wide variety of interesting topics. If chiro has the sources, put them in. ] (]) 17:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

:::: A wide variety of interesting topics? What do you mean? I think you'd be surprised at what I think is bogus and what I believe to be valid. But just because I think something is bogus doesn't mean that I am going to do what I can to make sure that it is labeled "pseudoscientific" here. It's called "writing for the enemy" and - in my case - I do so to help make an encyclopedia which is worth a damn and is neutral, rather than a POV attack platform. Baegis, make sure you know who Fyslee is. This is an editor with such contempt of topics such as chiropractic, that I once busted him for trying to add items such as "scientific chiropractic" to the example list of the ] page. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 18:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::"Innate intelligence" ''would'' appear to be quite an obvious pseudoscience... ] (]) 18:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::: That would depend on your interpretation of it. A historical definition might very well be. However, today it is used to describe your body's self-healing abilities (homeostasis). If you cut your finger, the healthy body tries to heal itself. If you get an infection, the healthy body fights the disease. Et cetera. There's nothing unscientific at all about the modern usage of the word. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 19:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

:<undent>I try to explain my opinion by starting with an astonishing example.
:According to the definition given in ], one can prove that ] is a pseudoscience.
:Actually, mathematics applies or pretends to apply the ] on things that mathematicians cannot prove to be true. Mathematicians use to call "]s" those things that they only claim to be true; but they do not prove them and they cannot even prove them.
:Mathematicians can teach the properties of 1000-dimensional spaces, even if nobody ever proved that these spaces exist.
:One can even state that mathematicians are harming knowledge, because millions of students of primary school worldwide are taught by mathematicians that the ] is true even if nobody can prove it; only a restricted group of "]s" that reach graduate or post-graduate education are taught that the parallel postulate may be false.
:Anyway, this does not invalidate that mathematics is an encyclopedic item. One can describe mathematics and its axioms, one can describe the methods of mathematics and the results of it; anyway, one is free of not to believe in the axioms of mathematics (such as the parallel postulate, for instance) but this is just one's personal opinion or one's personal belief.
:The same holds for ] or ] (for instance): one can describe the "axioms" (or the fundaments) of both astrology and graphology, one can describe the methods and the results of both disciplines, as both are encyclopedic items. But it's just up to one if to believe or not in the fundaments (or axioms) of these disciplines.
:The given definition of pseudoscience implies that mathematics is a pseudoscience, and this fact is a hint that the given definition of pseudoscience is still to be perfected. The "study of pseudosciences" has its own axioms or fundaments, just like mathematics, astrology and graphology; one can believe in these fundaments, totally, partially or not at all. Anyway this "study of pseudosciences" is for sure an encyclopedic item, it has its methods and has its results; one of the results of this discipline is the article we are talking about. Assuming that the "study of pseudosciences" is an encyclopedic item (and it is), then this article is an encyclopedic item; if one believes in the fundaments of the "study of pseudosciences", then one believes in the results written in this article, otherwise one does not believe or believes just up to one's personal level.
:The skeptical section in this article actually adds other "axioms" to the "standard fundaments" of the "study of pseudosciences". This means that the results appearing in the skeptical section may not conform to the "standard study of pseudosciences", and these results can be viewed as being the results of a "]" instead. My opinion is that keeping the skeptical section on this article results in an "]". This means that the topics in that section should be treated as that, having possibly their own article and having just a correctly weighted summary in this article.
:The disputed section should not be present at all in this article for the same reasons.
: A last thing that I would like you to notice is ]. The result was "keep" and I agree; but please note that a significant minority (6 out of 14) agree that the category should not be used to label disciplines as being a pseudoscience (3 by voting "delete"; 1 by requesting to include only those articles that refer to the concept of pseudoscience; 2 by requesting a strong case for including the subject in the category).
:--] (]) 15:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with separating the article. It's kinda of like mixing science with pseudoscience. The analogy isn't perfect. The point is that the classifications in the first group are of a much higher order, then let's say the beliefs of a skeptical group. ] (]) 21:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

:That's not quite the issue here. There's a reason why certain subjects merit mentions from "higher order" societies: Because they've tried to infiltrate mainstream science or education, they've achieved some huge level of notoriety, etc. The question is, are these reasons they should be separated? When a user comes through here, is it relevant for them to see a separation of pseudoscience based on whether or not their proponents have made an effort to infiltrate mainstream science? Because that's essentially the break we're giving them.

:When we start dividing subjects up on the basis of the type of source used, we have to think of what dividing line we're really using, and how this appears to the average reader. In this case, it isn't a relevant issue to most readers, so we should leave them all together. Those readers who do care which source claims something is pseudoscience can always simply click on the tags and check the reference themselves. --] <sup>] ]</sup> 16:15, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

== Cleanup ==

There has been extensive discussion about needing clear citations that point to the pseudoscientific nature of subjects listed here. This included the need to remove items that do not have such citations. If verifiable citations cannot be found - and there have been months to do this - the items should be archived and brought back in when/if verification is possible. The discussion has been sitting on the talk page for several months and no one has expressed any doubts about the policy. I proposed on Dec. 4th to wait one more week and then begin archiving. It's 12 days later, and I began. One editor is reverting the archiving. What do people think about this? Do we want unverified items on this list? ] (]) 18:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

: You seem to be deleting items that are sourced. Is it because you don't consider the sources good enough that you are doing this? I think you should deal with them one at a time right here, since discussions may vary depending on the item. Make a header for each one and discuss the sourcing. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 18:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

::Good suggestion. It was implemented a month and a half ago, however; see ]. We had a problem that many "citations" were absent any reference establishing the relationship to pseudoscience beyond the fact that the subject had an entry in an encyclopedia of pseudoscience (as do meteorites, vaccinations and a host of other non-pseudoscientific fields). So we asked that the actual terminology linking the fields to pseudoscience be included here, and suggested that if this was not able to be found there was a problem with verification - and that the items should then be removed from the list. This was 6 weeks ago, and no one objected at any time; several editors got involved and began finding verifiable connections to pseudoscience. We can take a little more time, but if there is no one claiming a connection why should a field be on this list? ] (]) 01:31, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

:::All you need to do is read the entry in the encyclopedia of pseudoscience to figure out whether the item is an actual pseudoscience or not. Do you have a copy? ] (]) 01:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

:::: That would be a ] violation and mere mention in this book doth not a pseudoscience make. Again, before identifying something with the pejorative "pseudoscience" label, let's push ourselves to find the best sources out there (i.e. peer reviewed literature and Academies of Science). -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 01:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

== The original reason for including skeptical groups ==

Several months ago, someone (me!) got the idea of only using sources from science academies. We immediately ran into the problem of a horribly-underpopulated list. It turns out that these academies only denounce the pseudosciences that make their way into business, education, and government. So next went to works from mainstream skeptical bodies, which are in the business of writing about any pseudoscience that pops up on a very sensitive radar. We didn't think it appropriate to throw them in with the academies, so the pseudosciences that only received attention from the skeptical bodies were separated out. Save for a couple people who didn't want their pet hobby on the list no matter what, everyone was happy with this solution. But of course, new Wikipedians visited the list and started objecting without reading the pages of compromise that went into the present version of the article. And here we are today! '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 22:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

:That's not quite the full story. We discovered that many items are here simply because they have an entry in an encyclopedia, without the actual text of that entry in any way supporting inclusion here. We made it very clear that a table of contents is not verifiable support for inclusion, and also gave clear examples of why not: meteorites, Thomas Kuhn and vaccinations all would qualify otherwise. So get on it: give some actual terminology that supports a linkage - that's all we're asking. I'm not demanding that science academies be used, though I think supporting evidence from them would be more convincing. I'm just asking that there be some verifiable source that actually links these items to pseudoscience - and no, the present citations to a table of contents are not sufficient. ] (]) 01:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

::Really? Can you name one instance where the actual text of the entry of the subject that was included here did not support inclusion here? I'll note that the strawman of Thomas Kuhn and vaccinations is not a strong argument: we include items here not just because they are in the table of contents. Anyone who has a copy of the book can read the entries and figure out whether something included in the encyclopedia has the properties of pseudoscience or not. The encyclopedia is a perfectly good source for this endeavor and trying to disparage it as you are doing is a bit tendentious. ] (]) 03:30, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

::: Since the encyclopedia is specifically about pseudoscience, and nothing else, the burden of proof is on Hgilbert to show that the encyclopedia has mentioned an item, not because it was considered by them to be a pseudoscience, but was mentioned for some other reason. Such a thing is a possible "exception to the rule," but it needs to be shown to be the case. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 04:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

::::This was shown to be the case with ball lightning (see ]), where ] claimed this was cited as an "important topic of pseudoscience" and it turned out that this citation was from the table of contents, which was subtitled "important topics of pseudoscience". We thus asked that a concrete citation from an ''article'' be given for all these entries, as many of them seem to have been added on the same basis. If you have a copy of the encyclopedia, it should be easy to quote the wording that supports inclusion here. If you have only looked at the table of contents, they should be removed until a verifiable source is found that supports inclusion. Alternatively, the person who added them can at least certify which, if any, were added on the basis of actual article wording. Then this can be checked and the person held accountable.

::::My main point: topics added here on the basis of the table of contents page or equivalent should be removed. If this is done, the article will be in better shape. ] (]) 17:24, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::The section in the encyclopedia where ball lightning is found is entitled "Important pseudoscientific concepts." Yes, the section title is listed in the table of contents (as one would expect), but I'm not seeing why this fact makes the source unusable. '''<font color="006400">]</font>''' (<font size="1"><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font>) 22:12, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::: Hgilbert still has the burden of proof. If an exception is found, then of course it should be easy to show it here and then we will all agree to delete it. Otherwise the default assumption is that the list of topics discussed in an encyclopedia exclusively devoted to pseudoscience will be pseudoscientific subjects. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 06:02, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::::I think the problem we're facing here is that this book isn't too widely available. It's out of print, and not all libraries would have it. I believe there is one Wikipedian who's come around here occasionally who has a copy, so it would be best to ask them, if they have some time, to provide confirmation that all subjects listed as pseudoscience with that book as a reference are characterized as such within the actual chapters. That will be good enough for the reference; we don't need to quote the actual part of the book to meet ]. After that threshold is met, it would be fair to say that any dissenter has to show that the book doesn't say that. --] <sup>] ]</sup> 16:19, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


== Acupuncture ==

I know that this has been on the list in the past and is guaranteed to be contentious, but ] is probably the most commonly practiced and researched pseudoscience (with the possible exception of chiropractic). As such, this list suffers disproportionately by this omission. Supporting references include the NIH, Mayo Clinic, and AMA, as well as preeminent skeptical organizations. As with every entry, it is of course necessary to outline the legitimate scientific enterprise associated with acupuncture. Please find below for your 'let us please bring this to consensus without an edit war' pleasure, my attempt at an immpeccably sourced NPOV entry:


''']''' is a form of ] in which fine needles are inserted and manipulated at specific ] to rebalance the flow of ]. Within the context of ], acupuncture has been used successfully to treat a variety of conditions, mostly related to pain or nausea.<ref name='Acu_nccam1'> {{cite web|url=http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/ |title=Acupuncture |accessdate=2007-12-25 |date=2007-10-24 |publisher=National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine }} "However, promising results have emerged, showing efficacy of acupuncture, for example, in adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and in postoperative dental pain." </ref><ref name='Acu_NIH1'> {{cite journal|title=Acupuncture|journal=NIH Consensus Statement 1997|date=1997-11-3|first=|last=|coauthors=|volume=15|issue=5|pages=1-34|id= |url=http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1997Acupuncture107html.htm|format=|accessdate=2007-12-25 }} "Such applications include prevention and treatment of nausea and vomiting; treatment of pain..." </ref><ref name='Acu_Mayo2'> {{cite web|url=http://www.mayoclinic.com/print/acupuncture/SA00086/ |title=Acupuncture: can it help? |accessdate=2007-12-25 |last=Mayo Clinic staff |date=2007-12-13 |publisher=Mayo Clinic }} "reliminary studies indicate that acupuncture may offer symptomatic relief for a variety of diseases and conditions, including low back pain, headaches, fibromyalgia, migraines and osteoarthritis." </ref> There is less evidence of its efficacy against a variety of illnesses and physical ailments for which it has been used.<ref name='Acu_NwN1'>{{cite book | last = Barrett | first = Stephen J. | authorlink = Stephen Barrett | coauthors = William T. Jarvis | title = The Health Robbers: A Close Look at Quackery in America | publisher = Prometheus Books | date = 1993-10 | location = | pages = excerpt at link | url = http://www.veterinarywatch.com/Acuref1.htm | doi = | id = | isbn = 978-0879758554 }} "Acupuncture was then given credit for curing illnesses that would have improved by themselves... Another strategy ... was to claim benefit from acupuncture where none, in fact, existed." </ref><ref name='Acu_NIH3'> {{cite journal|title=Acupuncture|journal=NIH Consensus Statement 1997|date=1997-11-3|first=|last=|coauthors=|volume=15|issue=5|pages=1-34|id= |url=http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1997Acupuncture107html.htm|format=|accessdate=2007-12-25 }} "Although many other conditions have received some attention in the literature and, in fact, the research suggests some exciting potential areas for the use of acupuncture, the quality or quantity of the research evidence is not sufficient to provide firm evidence of efficacy at this time." </ref> No scientific evidence exists for the traditional metaphysical mechanisms of action, anatomical theories, or precise clinical placements of acupuncture.<ref name='Acu_nccam2'> {{cite web|url=http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/ |title=Acupuncture |accessdate=2007-12-25 |date=2007-10-24 |publisher=National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine }} "tudies have shown that acupuncture may alter brain chemistry by changing the release of neurotransmitters and neurohormones and, thus, affecting the parts of the central nervous system related to sensation and involuntary body functions, such as immune reactions and processes that regulate a person's blood pressure, blood flow, and body temperature." </ref><ref name='Acu_NIH2'> {{cite journal|title=Acupuncture|journal=NIH Consensus Statement 1997|date=1997-11-3|first=|last=|coauthors=|volume=15|issue=5|pages=1-34|id= |url=http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1997Acupuncture107html.htm|format=|accessdate=2007-12-25 }} "Even more elusive is the scientific basis of some of the key traditional Eastern medical concepts such as the circulation of Qi, the meridian system, and other related theories, which are difficult to reconcile with contemporary biomedical information but continue to play an important role in the evaluation of patients and the formulation of treatment in acupuncture." </ref><ref name='Acu_AMA1'> {{cite web|url=http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13638.html |title=Alternative Medicine |accessdate=2007-12-25 |date=2007-09-24 |work=Report 12 of the Council on Scientific Affairs }} "Endorphin release, stimulation of the peripheral nervous system, and pain mediation through the effects of other neuropeptides are currently thought to be the most likely conventional explanations for the effects of acupuncture." </ref><ref name='Acu_UKSkeptics'> {{cite web|url=http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=acupuncture.php |title=Acupuncture |accessdate=2007-12-25 |last=Jackson |first=John |date=2006 |publisher=UK Skeptics }} "Acupuncture is a pseudoscientific approach to medical care: it is based on untenable, unfalsifiable principles, relies on anecdotes as evidence, and makes no advances or contributions to the field of medicine. The small amount of evidence there is to support its use in pain relief can also be called into question.." </ref><ref name='Acu_CSI'>{{cite news | first=Victor J. | last=Stenger | coauthors= | title=Reality Check: the energy fields of life | date=1998-06 | publisher=Committee for Skeptical Inquiry | url =http://www.csicop.org/sb/9806/reality-check.html | work =Skeptical Briefs | pages = | accessdate = 2007-12-25 | language = }} "Despite complete scientific rejection, the concept of a special biological fields within living things remains deeply engraved in human thinking. It is now working its way into modern health care systems, as non-scientific alternative therapies become increasingly popular. From acupuncture to homeopathy and therapeutic touch, the claim is made that healing can be brought about by the proper adjustment of a person's or animal's "bioenergetic fields."" </ref> Patient response rates and magnitudes and neurochemical and biophysical responses are all consistent with placebo response.<ref name='Acu_Mayo1'> {{cite web|url=http://www.mayoclinic.com/print/acupuncture/SA00086/ |title=Acupuncture: can it help? |accessdate=2007-12-25 |last=Mayo Clinic staff |date=2007-12-13 |publisher=Mayo Clinic }} "several studies have indicated that sham acupuncture works as well or almost as well as real acupuncture." </ref><ref name='Acu_MedAcu'> {{cite journal|title=|journal=Medical Acupuncture|date=2006-01|first=Michael A.|last=Santoro|coauthors=|volume=17|issue=2|pages=|id= |url=|format=|accessdate=2007-12-25 }} "tudies utilizing sham acupuncture, either via use of non-meridian points or special non-penetrating needles, often fail to show a significant incremental effect of "true" acupuncture." </ref><ref name='Acu_AMA2'> {{cite web|url=http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13638.html |title=Alternative Medicine |accessdate=2007-12-25 |date=2007-09-24 |work=Report 12 of the Council on Scientific Affairs }} "Critical reviews of acupuncture ... conclude that no evidence exists that acupuncture affects the course of any disease." </ref><ref name='Acu_UKSkeptics1'> {{cite web|url=http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=acupuncture.php |title=Acupuncture |accessdate=2007-12-25 |last=Jackson |first=John |date=2006 |publisher=UK Skeptics }} "Whether the mild pain relieving properties of acupuncture are real or not, most claims for the efficacy of acupuncture are grossly over-exaggerated." </ref><ref name='Acu_NwN2'>{{cite book | last = Barrett | first = Stephen J. | authorlink = Stephen Barrett | coauthors = William T. Jarvis | title = The Health Robbers: A Close Look at Quackery in America | publisher = Prometheus Books | date = 1993-10 | location = | pages = excerpt at link | url = http://www.veterinarywatch.com/Acuref1.htm | doi = | id = | isbn = 978-0879758554 }} ""Acupuncture anesthesia" is not generally used for children under twelve because of their inability to cooperate. Elderly patients are generally not operated upon with "acupuncture anesthesia," and it is considered "experimental" in animals. (When it is done with animals, they are strapped tightly to the operating table.)" </ref><ref name='Acu_NCAHF1'> {{cite web|url=http://www.ncahf.org/pp/acu.html |title=NCAHF Position Paper on Acupuncture (1990) |accessdate=2007-12-30 |date=1990-09-16 |publisher=National Council Against Health Fraud }} "he scientific literature provides no evidence that acupuncture can perform consistently better than a placebo in relieving pain or other symptoms for which it has been proposed." </ref>


Note that this includes only pure needling; heating, lasing, applying current and suchlike modified modalities would to my mind be better served as subheadings. I also omitted any reference to the dangers of relying solely on acupuncture as a medical diagnostic/treatment tool, as that strays perhaps outside the purview of just a list entry. I also also omitted direct citation to a couple of well-designed studies on sham acupuncture (no statistical difference) and neuroimaging studies (people feel better when we think we are being treated) to avoid any possibility of ] by cherry-picking studies. The issue of lack of worldwide and historical agreement on the placement of acupuncture points, however, might be added to the entry if anyone thinks it useful.
] (]) 10:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


'''Reply to Eldereft'''

Appreciate your work on the proposed entry, though some of your statements (e.g. re placebo) are not consistent with sources cited or with other sources. For example, you say "Patient response rates and magnitudes and neurochemical and biophysical responses are all consistent with placebo response" and cite the NIH statement, but that source says "the quality or quantity of the research evidence is not sufficient to provide firm evidence of efficacy at this time" ''in reference to'' "many other conditions (that) have received some attention in the literature", not ''all'' conditions. Indeed, that report says (albeit arguably a bit too boldly, cf. Cochrane et al) that "There is clear evidence that needle acupuncture is efficacious for adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and probably for the nausea of pregnancy" and "There is evidence of efficacy for postoperative dental pain", etc. If you want a source arguing acu is just placebo, the NIH statement isn't it. Have a look also at the sources under ].

However, the main problem with your proposed addition is that I don't see any source from any body of scientists or so-called scientific-skeptical groups stating that acu is a pseudoscience. Per ], attributable evidence of scientific consensus is necessary to use ], and evidence of a sig POV that the topic is pseudoscientific is necessary to mention PS in the article. For this list, we have agreed upon an intermediate threshold (an agreement consistent with ]): a statement by a group. I see essays by individuals (Carroll) and a piece on the UK Skeptics site, but not a group statement. Perhaps an entry from Shermer's "]" would suffice, since we have agreed that that publication represents some degree of consensus from the Skeptics Society (I guess by virtue of that group having an editorial board and board of advisors).

So, if we can find such a group-based source, and tweak your entry here and there, sure. Does this make sense to you? Criticisms of aspects of acupuncture as pseudoscience do exist in the article, btw (I put some of them there myself), so the issue is not being ignored. regards, ]<sup>(])</sup> 21:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

:Thank you for your careful reading of this proposal. Looking back, I would seem to have been too hasty in the NIH ref. you mention - lack of evidence is only evidence against if there is sufficient reason to expect that an effect would have been observed. I would also like to stress, as ] (and I suspect you) seems to understand, that a placebo response is not no response. And yes, I leaned heavily on ] and references to try to make sure to fairly represent scientific consensus. Additional RS are of course welcomed, but I believe that those provided indicate a significant POV justifying inclusion:
:*Ref. 20<ref name="Acu_UKSkeptics1">20</ref> appears to be a statement of position endorsed by the UK Skeptics, authored by John Jackson (see on their site); should this be cited differently to make this clear?
:*Ref. 19<ref name="Acu_AMA2">19</ref> is from a policy advisory body in the ]. The paper is from 1997, but is the most recent treatment I could find. While they are not a scientific body ''per se'', they are a professional association with a vested interest in providing accurate advice to their members and the public at large.
:*Similarly for the Mayo Clinic<ref name="Acu_Mayo1">16</ref>. I would also appreciate a second opinion on using this reference in support of acupuncture=placebo. They actually say "sham acupuncture" - is it ] to equate this with placebo acupuncture? Several discussions of how to conduct a proper double blinded acupuncture study cited the need for a sham control group to sieve out placebo response.
:*Ref. 15<ref name="Acu_CSI">15</ref> is from the ] newsletter, which is presumably endorsed by the organization. ] (]) 03:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

:::Eldereft, I was just informed by my wife that I need to relinquish the computer, so please bear with me one more day and I'll reply. :-) thanks, ]<sup>(])</sup> 03:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
::::By all means take your time - I did not plan to add anything to the main article without consensus - at least a couple weeks :). ] (]) 04:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::Rereading your comment on the NIH position paper - citing this in support of the placebo sentence would be quoting out of context given their conclusion, yes? ] (]) 11:20, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
::::::Yes, agree, it would be out of context and not consistent with the spirit or the letter of that source. --]<sup>(])</sup> 13:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

(de-indent) OK, finally some time for a reply. I still don't see any of these references making the cut, for various reasons: i.e., the sources don't say acu is pseudoscience, a/o they are individuals rather than groups, a/o they fail ]. I don't think a bunch of "not quite" sources taken together suffice, any more than it's possible to become "a little bit pregnant" from a series of near-misses. There is a certain threshold to meet.

The one statement by a scientific body group (AMA<ref name="Acu_AMA2"/>) does not say that acu is a pseudoscience or anything in that ballpark (e.g., a pretend or spurious science, or that it is misrepresented as science). It appears that you are making the leap of assuming that a treatment whose efficacy is unproven or disputed must be pseudoscience. This sounds like ] to me, and it also leads to the absurd result of including any and all treatments lacking gold-standard EBM backing (see last paragraph , from the ]). Same goes for Mayo Clinic<ref name="Acu_Mayo1"/>, but even more so given context, as with NIH.

John Jackson, at UKSkeptics<ref name="Acu_UKSkeptics1"/>, does call acu pseudoscience. However, there is nothing there to indicate that his essay is a statement by the group, or a list of editors or advisors. Nor does UK Skeptics appear to meet ], and our inclusion criteria do specifically say "notable skeptical bodies". Additionally, the source does not appear to meet ], being self-published, and has no references. A pretty bad source, imo, also because it is factually wrong on the origins of the idea of ] in TCM (it did not originate with Soulie de Morant), and to boot, it looks like the author may have lifted (with minor modifications) some of the WP article (see ]) without attribution. This source is a great example of why we need V RS's. Really kind of ironic not to be rigorous here. (I agree with ] that articles on fringe topics, with little more than self-published sources, can suffer from vanity and NPOV issues, and thus require balancing with a Quackwatch-type, self-published source. But for notable topics like acu, we should use notable sources, and stick close to them.)

The Stenger article at CSI (formerly CSICOP)<ref name="Acu_CSI"/>, similarly, is not evidently a statement by that group. (Are CSI self-pub as well? It gets hard to tell.)

There is one source, NCAHF<ref name='Acu_NCAHF1'/>, that comes close to our criteria. As above, I don't accept the idea that disputed efficacy = pseudoscience. Nor is it clear that their characterization of acu as non-scientific equates to pseudo; classical Chinese medicine predates science and never pretended to be science. But more importantly, ] says that NCAHF's self-published stuff should be used primarily in their own article, and in this case, it is: ].

OK -- I don't mean to be dense or to wikilawyer here. Just arguing for adequate sourcing. Even from the biggest-picture, ] standpoint, I don't think that dubious sources on skepticism are good for either scientific thinking or for this project. I don't doubt that characterization of acu (or aspects of it) as PS exists, but I don't see enough to meet this list's criteria.

I did consider suggesting that we loosen the inclusion criteria, and allow the second tier to include not just statements by groups, but statements by any source meeting ] and ]. I think we should not, per ]. I don't think it's within the scope of the project to include every opinion any notable person has expressed on pseudoscience, bad politicians, restaurants in Paris, etc. The "group" threshold is important to meet ] and ], and we should make sure that in the case of skeptic groups, they meet both ] and ]. Otherwise, we just get a random collection of stuff related to pseudoscience, and for that, the reader can simply google or check ]. regards, ]<sup>(])</sup>
:P.S. <s>Need to go on wikibreak for a few days.</s> ''reprieve!'' Thanks for the good discussion and not rushing things. cheers and Happy New Year, ]<sup>(])</sup> 05:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

== Shroud of Turin ==

As someone already pointed out by editing the article, there is no universally accepted carbon dating result for the shroud in the scientific literature; I would remove the carbon dating part from the paragraph about the shroud if we agree.

--] (]) 10:47, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

:It is not ''universally'' accepted, but the majority-viewpoint is that there was no funny business with the radioactive decay. Interested readers should of course check the main article for details, but the age measurements by three independent laboratories are a major inclusion criterion. (Note - I am the one who added this point). ] (]) 15:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

::The point is that the carbon dating of the sample used is of course accurate and this is not controversial.
::But this does not mean (according to the sources) that you can extend the dating of the sample to the whole shroud because the location of the sample was not accurately chosen. The laboratories themselves asked to repeat the carbon dating on another sample because of this inaccuracy, but unfortunately the Holy See disagreed.
::--] (]) 17:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

:::The ideas that the sample area was invisibly rewoven to repair fire damage or that more recent<sup>14</sup>C contaminated the sample are both adequately addressed in sources that, last I checked, were in the main article. Drop me a line if the article is not making this point clearly enough. ] (]) 19:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

::::I think there is a misunderstanding. I am talking about the paragraph in ] and not about any paragraph in ]. That article is good as that is.
::::But being the carbon dating of the shroud a controversial topic I think that we should remove that information from the paragraph in this article, and keep only the part about the analyses of the paint and the herringbone twill weave of the cloth.
::::--] (]) 16:47, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

== Skeptics Encyclopedia ==
I have obtained copies of the Skeptics Encyclopedia articles on anthroposophy. The closest the article comes to connecting its subject matter to pseudoscience is the following, "Steiner claimed to be able to make scientific observations in the spirit world." That is a characterization; it would be ] to connect this to pseudoscience absent any more direct characterization. The article, in any case, is by someone with no academic or professional qualifications to comment on the area; he is a sound engineer and inventor of a microphone; the encyclopedia's contributors page lists no academic degrees in any field whatsoever.
:I strongly suspect that other articles from this encyclopedia also do not justify the themes for which they are cited's inclusion here. But I am removing this entry as not fulfilling the list's own criteria. ] (]) 00:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
::This is the book from Shermer, with the Skeptic Society? Or a different one? --]<sup>(])</sup> 19:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
:::This is the Shermer book <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::Thanks HG. Is it OR to assume that the book's title suffices as a characterization for topics it covers? Or does it have some articles where Shermer is saying ] is not really PS? thx, ]<sup>(])</sup> 20:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::I believe it actually does have some articles about non-PS. However, it's eminently obvious which those are. In this case, I'd have to read a bit of the article to judge; it's quite possible later discussion would go into why anthroposophy is bunk. If so, then it's fair to say the book characterizes it as pseudoscience. --] <sup>] ]</sup> 20:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
::::::Agree that the source is a V RS as long as we stick close to what it says. It doesn't have to use the exact word pseudoscience as long as it says something synonymous, like misrepresented as science. In this case, presumably the article disagrees with Steiner's claim of being "able to make scientific observations in the spirit world"? If so, then yes, the source is probably sufficient here, and the best thing would be to use the exact quote above. --]<sup>(])</sup> 22:16, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
:::#The article doesn't use any wording that is equivalent to a claim that anthroposophy is pseudoscientific.
:::#The author of the article has no scientific or academic qualifications and doesn't qualify as a verifiable source, in any case. ] (]) 23:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::On (1), I haven't read the article, but I find the title of the book to be "fairly explanatory", to quote ].
:::::On (2), skeptics don't have to have any qualifications to be skeptics. Just opinions and someone to publish them. (That's part of what makes them, as defenders of scientific rigor, such wonderful examples of pot/kettle.) Besides, Shermer edited, and even if he's wrong he's still as qualified a commentator as any, and he and his group notable V RS's for "skeptical opinion", which is what we're explicitly citing, nothing less, nothing more. regards, ]<sup>(])</sup> 09:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, as mentioned above, in Williams' ''Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience'', Heliocentrism, Thomas Kuhn, Occam's Razor, William Harvey, and Meteorites all have prominent articles. Shall we include them here as areas of pseudoscience? If memory serves, Continental Drift also has an article. I suggest that we expect some sort of wording in the actual article that supports inclusion. Otherwise we might just as well copy the tables of contents...but then identify them as such (topics with articles in various Encyclopedias of Pseudoscience). ] (]) 18:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
::::Of course we'll need a little wording within the chapter to justify it, but don't go expecting every article on a pseudoscientific subject to have a line specifically saying "...therefore X is pseudoscience." The book was written with the goal of being a source for a Misplaced Pages article. You just have to ] a little in determining whether a given article characterizes its subject as pseudoscience, or whether it's discussing some pseudoscience-related issue. --] <sup>] ]</sup> 21:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::I was being slightly facetious re (2) above, but I basically agree with Infofile. As long as this source is factually correct on Steiner's claims about Anthroposophy's being scientific, and is critical of that claim, then it is OK here. --]<sup>(])</sup> 04:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
:::Hmmm...I just read the ] guideline, which says that "Your brain is not a source for article content." (first line) You mean, I think, just do a little ] which can link what is not said in an article with what you interpret into it. If an article doesn't call something pseudoscience, then neither should we. We can characterize what is said. But that doesn't qualify it for inclusion on a page of things people have called pseudoscientific. If nobody has called it pseudoscientific or the equivalent, it is not up to us to do original research to determine whether it is or not. ] (]) 00:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

==Applied Kinesiology (2)==
the Applied Kinesiology entry was edited to remove references (and the redundant word "pseudoscientific"). I believe this to have been done with ], but the explanation given in the edit summary cited ], which, while having a certain broad relevance, seems to my mind not to provide motivation for removing these references. I would like therefore respectfully to request a more complete explanation for this edit. ] (]) 08:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

: ] lists fours characterizations as follows:
:* ''Obvious pseudoscience'': Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more.
:* ''Generally considered pseudoscience'': Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.
:* ''Questionable science'': Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized.
:* ''Alternative theoretical formulations'': Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.
: Of these, AK falls under "Questionable Science" - for if it were an "Obvious Pseudoscience" or it was "Generally Considered Pseudoscience", it would be recognized as such by scientific bodies and fall under the first section of this list article. Since it is one deemed "pseudoscientific" by some skeptic groups, it falls under the latter section of our list article. Therefore, it's status as "scientific" is questionable. (I wouldn't imagine that it is an Alternative Theoretical Formulation.) That being so, the ArbCom ruled that Questionable Science should not be regarded as examples of pseudoscience. Therefore, I removed the statement and refs characterizing it as such. Further, and outside of the world of ArbCom decisions and NPOV and FAQs, it doesn't make sense to outright label AK "pseudoscientific" if it is in a section where it is only considered pseudoscientific by some skeptical groups. Technically, if this list article was to present just examples of "pseudoscience", AK's existence here would violate the WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience guideline. However, since we have a ] section here which merely provides examples of what some skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific, we seem to be skirting the guideline. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 19:20, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
::Agree, with one caveat: "obvious pseudoscience" doesn't necessarily require a source, but the ArbCom used that term to refer to tiny fringe topics like Time Cube. Topics with a following, big enough to attract commentary, are according to the ArbCom to be dealt with based on what V RS's say. Astrology, widely considered PS by scientists, falls at one end; psychanalysis at the other, and in between is where we have to do our homework source-wise. And this list helpfully adds an intermediate level, between "Generally Considered" and "Questionable": the "skeptic group" tier, for those "Questionable" sciences that have documentably ruffled a significant number of feathers.
::No doubt there are some "alternative theoretical formulations" that have been rashly labelled pseudoscience; the idea that rocks fall from the sky comes to mind. Self-identified skeptics have been known to be full of (...the obvious), as when ] attempted to debunk global warming. Anyway, our requiring statements from groups, as opposed to individuals, helps keep things a bit more encyclopedic. And the fact that scientific bodies tend to, as ] said, use the PS label gives me hope that discussion of grey-area issues can evolve in a less bumper-sticker-ish direction. --]<sup>(])</sup> 19:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
:::P.S. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see (either in the or the current entry) a reference citing a skeptical-group statement that AK is a pseudoscience. It shouldn't be on the list at all if it lacks that. --]<sup>(])</sup> 20:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
::::I was not disputing the removal of the blanket "pseudoscientific" tag, but by ]'s logic, the entire entry should be removed, not just some of the sources (which, along with the entry itself, have been argued ''ad nauseum'', if I recall). The problem is that, like acupuncture (yes, I am coming back to that ], but it is complex; thank you JB for all your fine work refining the issue) or hypnosis, there are both legitimate evidence-based applications and patent absurdity. The entry should reflect the fact that, for instance, manual muscle testing has a place in physical therapy, but using MMT to determine allergies is pure magical thinking. There is no mystical energy field to be disrupted when a patient grasps a "harmful substance", and certainly nobody can make a medical diagnosis based on such purported disruption.
::::As for the ] of the latter half of the list, I believe that this also has been argued past the point of usefulness (see ]). Additionally, the demarcation does not really divide how it says it does since there are scientific consensus type references in the section. ] (]) 21:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
::::: Please reconsider my logic. According to the ArbCom ruling, we shouldn't label questionable science (which AK is) as pseudoscience. However, we get around that ruling by labeling AK as something which some skeptic groups have called pseudoscientific. So technically we are not calling AK pseudoscience.
::::: I think this is kind of bending the rules to satisfy a specific POV; which is why I think this section does violate ] or something to that effect. I really don't think it is encyclopedic to have a list which has inclusion criteria solely based on the opinions of a very specific and narrow POV. It's equivalent to having a list called "Unethical politicians according to members of the Republican Party". The party with the opinion is too involved to give a non-partisan viewpoint or one with any encyclopedic merit.
::::: Finally, if there is something in the weaker "skeptical group" list which has sources worthy of placing it in the stronger "broad consensus" list, please do so. The "skeptical group" list is shaky information at best. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 22:07, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
::::::I have in the past supported keeping the second tier exactly as it is, neither conflating it with the first nor removing it. However, Levine2112 makes an excellent point about the wording "should not be so characterized". Since ArbCom decisions are binding, that's a pretty strong argument that having such topics in an article called "list of pseudosciences" is inherently an NPOV violation, no matter what the fine print in the body of the article says.
::::::So why not just keep the info but fork out a new article with an appropriate name, as was done with the redirect from the POV-as-it-gets article ]? Or pester the ArbCom about it again, if such a list just feels too wishy-washy. I'd recommend against that course.
::::::Finally, for Eldereft, I understand your concerns about AK (and generally concur with them); I also see that V RS's do exist along these lines and are covered in some detail at ]. If none exists from a group, then I'm not sure what else to do for this list's purposes, given ]. As for the demarcation between the first and second sections, it's quite explicit; any sci-consensus type sources in the second would simply justify moving the topic to the first, right? Or am I not grokking something? regards, ]<sup>(])</sup> 23:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::: Eldereft: AK doesn't advocate the use of muscle testing while holding an object in the hand or placing it on the body. That is a common misconception. ] (]) 00:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, while stuff like ] incorporates AK, you're right (afaik) re AK per se. --]<sup>(])</sup> 01:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
(Unindented)<br>
The common misconception is that all techniques that use muscle testing are AK. It doesn't cost anything to do muscle testing as there are no machines to buy. And that has been a major problem in that anyone can start their own "muscle testing technique", and it often gets lump under AK. Misuse of the muscle testing should not be conflated with the AK, as we are striving for accuracy.
Furthermore, AK does not claim to be a diagnostic technique per se, as it is to be used as an adjunct to standard medical diagnosis. Use of it as a standalone is not sanctioned by the ICAK.
Finally, the research on AK is inconclusive. As is the case with many, alt-med techniques, they do not easily fit into existing models of scientific research, since alt-med seeks to treat individuals and not conditions. The science of how to test alt-meds is evolving. ] (]) 11:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
:Anthon: A satisfactory entry certainly would make it clear that AK covers a variety of techniques, but insofar as I am able to discover the touch/think about an object and homonculus-map aspects of AK are precisely what distinguish it from garden-variety MMT. Ultimately, in an unregulated profession practitioners can say and do pretty much as they like, but it would be a ] of how the term is used to disqualify such considerations. ] (]) 03:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
::As for AK meeting the inclusion criteria, these references are really not difficult to find, and if we dig just a little an unassailably balanced entry can be made briefly outlining all relevant points.
::* The Massachusetts Medical Society (which publishes The New England Journal of Medicine) compiled in 2001 a review () of naturopathic practices, which calls applied kinesiology "outright quackery."
::* considers that "vailable scientific evidence does not support the claim that applied kinesiology can diagnose or treat cancer or other illness." This is given expressly in reference to the 'muscles as map to the organs' aspects of AK, not "kinesiology, a field of scientific study of the movements of the human body," as our entry should make clear. This is also an example of why I support inclusion of reference quotes to make it easy to determine that a citation really supports what we say it does even after heavy revisions.
::* British Columbia and Alberta Skeptics () call AK "most deinitely pseudo-science." (might not meet ], though I think their notability is sufficient)
::* CSI does not have an article exclusively on applied kinesiology, but mentions in a couple of refereed ] articles that it is "a scientifically discredited procedure" (note the use of "discredited", not "unproven").
::* Entries are in at least the online versions of both and , I can check the published versions of each (which are not self-published) at my local library if we need them.
::* Even an insurance company specializing in complementary care () considers AK "scientifically implausible", and does not recommend it "as a useful diagnostic method because validity was not confirmed in any of three independent research groups that have assessed the validity of this technique under a variety of circumstances in a rigorous manner." Translation: tests have been performed which would be expected to have shown an effect if AK were valid. This is not an area where the jury is still out. This site is not so much ] on this subject, but it is telling that even a company promoting other complementary techniques denies AK's scientific basis.
::] (]) 03:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

:::That first one, MassMed, looks like a home run for our purposes, i.e. a first-tier source, if I'm not mistaken. --]<sup>(])</sup> 04:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Depends upon how accurate you want to be. {{Quotation | The Myths of “Toxins” and “Food Allergies,” and Associated Diagnostic Quackery<br> Equally false and alarmist are naturopathic claims regarding toxins and food allergies (e.g., 25% of Americans allegedly suffer from heavy metal poisoning,and food allergies are claimed to be a major cause of problems ranging from learning disorders to kidney diseases). Many of the '''means by which naturopaths diagnose''' these toxins and allergies are outright quackery: electrodiagnostic devices (banned by the FDA as worthless), hair analysis, '''applied kinesiology,''' iridology, and more. A practitioner who expects to find multiple offending substances may well “uncover” these with some of these methods, while missing the occasional real one. Imagine the pressure on the DPH to do something about these horrible toxins and allergies, once legitimized by the official diagnoses of licensed practitioners. Imagine, for that matter, the effect of this on worker’s compensation, disability insurance, union grievances, and civil court caseloads.}}

According to the Mass Medical statement, the means by which naturopaths diagnose include applied kinesiology. Please compare this statement with the Status of the ICAK. The following from the bottom of the statement. {{Quotation | ... Provide an interactive assessment of the functional health status of an individual which is not equipment intensive but does '''emphasize the importance of correlating findings with standard diagnostic procedures ...'''<br><br>When properly performed, applied kinesiology can provide valuable insights into physiologic dysfunctions; however, many individuals have developed methods that use muscle testing (and related procedures) in a manner inconsistent with the approach advocated by the International College of Applied Kinesiology-U.S.A. '''Clearly the utilization of muscle testing and other A.K. procedures does not necessarily equate with the practice of applied kinesiology as defined by the ICAK-U.S.A.'''<br><br>

There are both lay persons and professionals who use a form of manual muscle testing without the necessary expertise to perform specific and accurate tests. '''Some fail to coordinate the muscle testing findings with other standard diagnostic procedures.''' These may be sources of error that could lead to misinterpretation of the condition present, and thus to improper treatment or failure to treat the appropriate condition. For these reasons the International College of Applied Kinesiology-U.S.A. defines the practice of applied kinesiology as limited to health care professionals licensed to diagnose.}}

Herein lies the problem I mentioned above. Naturopaths using muscle testing as a means of diagnosing heavy metal toxicity, or any other malady, are using muscle testing but are not practicing AK. If AK muscle testing required the purchase of expensive machinery or a precription to purchase machinery, AK wouldn't be having this problem. ] (]) 05:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

:]: Please refrain from impugning my editorial rectitude. Please forgive if such was not your intention, but your words were not appreciated. On a lighter note, I am also confused by your apparent ''non sequitur'' about the price of testing equipment.
:In response to your actual point above, yes ICAK restricts membership to those licensed to diagnose or in a program resulting in such licensure, ensuring that AK diagnosis will not be the only tool available to their practitioners. They are not, however, a professional organization governing legal restriction on the use of the term, even within the US. As I mentioned above, we as editors are restricted to reporting accurately how the term is used, not how ICAK wishes that it would be used. Finally, even restricted to the views of ICAK, applied kinesiology still includes "the use of manual muscle testing to evaluate body function through the dynamics of the musculoskeletal system." Unless I am misreading their description, this indicates an acceptance of the pseudoscientific theory that specific muscle groups mystically map on to particular organs in such a way that their degree of function correlates even in the absence of known or hypothesized neurochemical pathways or evolutionary advantage to such a system. ] 04:18, January 12, 2008 (UTC)

:: My apologies. I wasn't intending to question your integrity. There is some degree of latitude we have as editors. Consider it my poor attempt to appeal to reason. If muscle testing required the purchase of an expensive unit (eg. similar to a small X-ray device (35,000 US), then we wouldn't have 'everyone and his mother' starting a new technique that inappropriately utilizing muscle testing for diagnosis. I will respond to the rest later today. ] (]) 13:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Thank you. Now that I see where you are coming from, I see that you raise a very good and pertinent point about imprecision in the definition of an unregulated practice - anyone with some office space and a printer can ''say'' they are practicing AK, which dilutes the specificity of the term. Certainly this should inform our entry, doubly so since there are also scientific aspects. I would also like to seek your expertise (or that of anyone more familiar than I with the issue at hand): is it more correct to say "the practice of applied kinesiology includes a variety of techniques, including both evidence-based (''e.g.'' manual muscle testing) and pseudoscientific (''e.g.'' allergy/tocsin diagnosis or relating organ health to muscle status)"; or to say "applied kinesiologists use a variety of techniques, including ..."? ] (]) 09:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


==Disputed subject(s)==

There seem to have crept in several topics lacking sourcing to meet the list's stated criteria: "This is a list of fields of endeavor and concepts regarded as pseudoscientific by organizations within the international scientific community, and/or skeptical organizations." Rather than revise those criteria (which were hammered out over a long period of consensus-building and attention to ], NPOV, VER and OR) on an ad-hoc basis, I suggest moving such topics to the talk page, and (like references) keeping them in their own dedicated, always accessible at bottom-of-page section, ]. Also removed the subheader "disputed subjects", which had only one entry (], itself lacking adequate sourcing).

Apologies if this ] editing treads on any feet; it's done in the spirit of ], excerpted below. regards, ]<sup>(])</sup> 05:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
:I have to question a few things. Firstly, the stealth edit that took away the qualifier of notable skeptics. Not only did that take away a giant class of reliable sources, it excludes one of the most important sources for this article, notably the Encylopedia of Pseudoscience. Secondly, Jim, the issue of Anthroposophic medicine was discused many months ago. In fact, these talking points are still way up at the top. The Bates Method entry follows along the same lines. The scientific racism one is clearly important and Dr. Gould is clearly a reliable source for this claim. I do congratulate you on your other bold edits though, as alot of cruft does need to be culled from this list. ] (]) 06:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

::We shouldn't go by hidden criteria that are inconsistent with the explicit ones. It's hard to imagine that my fixing hidden text to make it consistent with the article is a "stealth edit". Baegis, I'd a appreciate a retraction of that characterization (although I do appreciate the AGF in ). I could not have been more explicit in my .

::I have not been aware of this (putative) change until now, as my comments above and my edit summaries show. As far as I (and IMO most editors) knew, the inclusion criteria were summarized by the mantra "statement by a group", which has good foundation in ] and ]. The hidden text said "in this section, skeptics or skeptical bodies", but that was never reflected in the ''visible'' text of the article, so I don't think we should populate the list accordingly until or if we agree to the change.

::After a little digging, I found the edit in which . However benign Infophile's intentions, (his|her) ES said nothing about expanding the inclusion criteria to include individual skeptics. Evidently, this change was made without discussion, per ]. The only relevant comment I see is from Infophile, which doesn't say anything about actually changing the article's criteria. I'm sure the reason there wasn't more discussion is that it was hidden, and not mentioned on the talk page, or even explictly in an ES.

::There is no consensus for this change to the list's inclusion criteria. Absent that, all my excisions appear to be sound, given the sources cited. <s>Will leave that for someone else to revert</s>. Thanks, ]<sup>(])</sup> 08:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC) edit: Actually, I feel strongly enough about this to rv Baegis's edits myself. I simply cannot agree with including topics based on a non-agreed-upon "hidden" criterion. --]<sup>(])</sup> 21:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

:::A little clarification of what was going on at the time: My intention with that note was to help prevent editors coming in and blindly adding items unsourced. I wasn't aware at the time that the threshold was determined to be groups, and at the time some of the sources used were individual skeptics. So, I put the note in reflecting what I saw to be going on. --] <sup>] ]</sup> 17:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

:::: I agree that if we are going to include skeptics at all in the list criteria (a subsection with even a weaker threshold for existence in the face of ]) that its inclusion criteria should not only be limited to skeptical groups, but ''notable'' ones at that. We are treading on thin ice as many of topics we list which some skeptical group considers to be pseudosciences, are for all intents and purposes more along the lines of questionable sciences or alternative theoretical formulations - topics which NPOV/FAQ:Pseudoscience warns us should not be regarded as examples of pseudoscience here at Misplaced Pages. -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 17:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::For Levine2112: Yes, it is undue weight to depict the opinion of any individual as being on par with the opinions of entire skeptical societies, let alone mainstream scientific groups. (I'm uncomfortable enough with putting the latter two groups under the same unbrella; the article ought to be called "List of pseudosciences and alleged pseudosciences".)
:::::Additionally, ] applies. I doubt WP needs an list of everything every "notable" individual has called a pseudoscience. Look at the mess ] has become. V RS statements by individuals that ] is a pseudoscience can go in WP, but are better put in individual articles. I see no reason for WP to duplicate Robert Todd Carroll's list here. That's what ''his'' website is for, and WP duly links to it, in the article about Carroll. regards, ]<sup>(])</sup> 21:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
::::::Carroll is a very notable skeptic and his views are very important in this article. The hidden criteria that could only be viewed by an editor when they tried to edit a page is completely acceptable. Could you imagine how unwieldy the title of that section would be if it was included? Topics which skeptical groups or important or otherwise notable skeptics consider to be pseudoscientific. Not a very pretty section title, to say the least. The exclusion of Carroll, on dubious grounds, takes away a giant RS, in the Skeptic's Dictionary (I misspoke earlier about the name). And you are right, WP does not need to chronicle what every skeptic has said about these topics. Only those that are very notable, ie Carroll. I fail to see a valid reason for excluding this source. ] (]) 21:38, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah, just imagine the disruption it would cause if we made the inclusion criteria ''visible''. We might have to get consensus or something. (/sarcasm) So far, three editors oppose your rv and no others support it, so methinks it is a . ''Nota bene'': this isn't ] where scientific consensus is clear-cut. Topics are disputed, and there are cases where notable skeptics express views at odds with sci consensus. Full-steam ahead S(kepticical, not necessarily even Scientific)POV editing here is a bad idea, and ignoring consensus is always a bad idea. --]<sup>(])</sup> 01:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


== Deleted Section on EMDR as pseudoscience. ==
::::::::Make that two ''for''. Carroll is a notable and reliable source. What is the rationale for his exclusion? ] (]) 03:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Indeed Carroll is notable, but he's not an organization. The wording in the lead section and second subsection has, for at least a year, clearly indicated something along the lines of "organizations within the international scientific community, and/or skeptical organizations". We discussed that extensively (see archived talk) and agreed on it for ] and ] reasons, so that inclusion of topics on the list would reflect at least some level of consensus. Now if we want to change that, fine, but that needs to be discussed, and the article's wording changed (visibly). Make sense? cheers --]<sup>(])</sup> 04:05, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


I deleted the section on Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) Therapy. The section was written with very old sources. EMDR now has good empirical support and an impressive research base from the APA and Cleveland Clinic and is a notable treatment for PTSD.
::::For Infophile: Thanks; I didn't think you were being sneaky or anything. You were trying to bring some order to chaos. Apart from the unwarranted inclusion of individual skeptics, it was an . Agree very much on rigor in sourcing. Hope you understand my concerns as well. regards, ]<sup>(])</sup> 21:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::No need to pile on praise; I wasn't put off by your comment, just thought I'd explain it a bit more since the edit was under question. Primary point I was trying to make was that the inclusion of individuals reflected the current state of the article - which used sources from ] to justify inclusion - rather than consensus from past discussion. Which means that anyone who's now using that text to justify using him alone as a source is ]. Anyways, I do see your concerns here. I'll have to think about the issues a bit more before weighing in what the criteria should be (though for now, I think it would be best to go back to the past consensus criteria until we've established that consensus has changed). --] <sup>] ]</sup> 22:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
::::::Cool, thanks. --]<sup>(])</sup> 02:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/treatments/eye-movement-reprocessing
:::::::::: Concerning weight - I put forth that ''e.g.'' Carl Sagan or Stephen J. Gould (disclosure - I added the "Mismeasure of Man" citation to the Scientific Racism entry) might be considered better a source than an entire raft of less notable individuals. Clearly we should not open the doors to include, for instance, your average young physicist well below the WP:PROF bar, but it would seem to be within the bounds of ] to include the considered opinions of an individual "with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Also, we may wish to spend some time with the ] guideline, and hereafter simply evaluate each source on its own merits. People, groups, and bodies noted for an ability and tendency fairly to represent scientific consensus may be cited as such; all others should be referenced only in their own articles or when their opinions are relevant. We have (and should maintain) a stated policy that any legitimate uses of or explanations for a term or technique (one of us really should get the hypnosis entry up to snuff, it is the prime example for this sort of discussion) must be noted, but that does not preclude informed evaluation of each source on its own merits. ] (]) 04:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::: Further, I fail to see why (disclosure - I added this reference as well) reference is disputed as regards to showing that CSI, a notable skeptical organization, considers that there is no good science justifying any sort of racism. ] (]) 04:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


] (]) 19:40, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
==Topics under review==
: this since its better to bring this up in talk first. This entry literally has a section called "Pseudoscience", so it meets the criteria for this list. ] (]) 19:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)


== Falsifiability in lead ==
Please put new sections above this one.


We need a statement about this in the lead. Let's try to formulate something. Here are a few thoughts to work with (and correct if necessary):
Per ]:
"Difficult or contentious subjects for which the definition of the topic itself is disputed should be discussed on the talk page in order to attain ] and to ensure that each item to be included on the list is ] and that the page on which the list appears as a whole represents a ]."


: If a claim is not ], it is not a pseudoscientific claim. All scientific claims are falsifiable, and if a belief makes no falsifiable claims, in other words no claim to be scientific, it is not pseudoscientific, but may be classed as a religious belief. The moment a religion makes falsifiable claims, those claims are subject to examination and, if they are falsified, they are then classed as pseudoscientific claims, and many pseudoscientific claims have been falsified.
*''']''' &ndash; a set of techniques for food production that avoids the use of synthetic pesticides, synthetic fertilizers, herbicides, and genetic technology. One prominent skeptic, Robert Todd Carroll, claims that this is "based on anti-scientific beliefs, myths, and superstition".<ref name='OrgFarm'> {{cite web|url=http://www.skepdic.com/organic.html |title=Organic Farming |accessdate=2007-11-13 |last=Carroll |first=Robert Todd |date=2007-11-10 |work=Skeptic's Dictionary }}</ref> A recent study, however, has shown the possibility of limited beneficial effects to the consumption of organic dairy products.<ref name='organic_Kummeling'> {{cite journal|title=Consumption of organic foods and risk of atopic disease during the first 2 years of life in the Netherlands|journal=British Journal of Nutrition|date=2007-08-29|first=Ischa|last=Kummeling|coauthors=Carel Thijs, Machteld Huber, Lucy P. L. van de Vijver, Bianca E. P. Snijders, John Penders, Foekje Stelma, Ronald van Ree, Piet A. van den Brandt, and Pieter C. Dagnelie|volume=(forthcoming, published online)|issue=|pages=|id= {{doi|10.1017/S0007114507815844}}|url=http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?aid=1318456|format=|accessdate=2007-11-23 }}</ref>


] (]) (''''']''''') 16:23, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
*''']''' is a form of complementary medicine<ref name=vR>von Rohr et al., , Schweiz Med Wochenschr 2000;130:1173–84</ref> founded in the 1920s by ] in conjunction with Dr. Ita Wegman. Adherents believe in a ] and ] approach to health. Skeptic Robert Carroll asserts the underlying thinking can be explained by ] out of touch with conventional medicine.<ref name="Carroll 2003"/> No thorough scientific analysis of anthroposophical medicine generally has been undertaken; studies of individual medicines have shown a range of positive and negative results.<ref>Ernst, Edzard, "Anthroposophical Medicine: A systematic review of randomised clinical trials." Wiener Klinische Wochenschrift, ISSN 0043-5325, 2004, vol. 116, no4, pp. 128-130</ref> An "anthroposophic lifestyle" has been shown to reduce ].<ref>Alm, J. S., Swartz, J., Lilja, G., Scheynius, A., and Pershagen, G. (1999). Atopy in children of families with an anthroposophic lifestyle. ''Lancet'', '''353'''(9163):1485-8. PMID 10232315 </ref>


:The lead word "]" takes the reader to the definition. Do we need to duplicate part of another article here? ] (]) 20:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
*The '''] for better eyesight''' is an educational method developed by ophthalmologist ], intended to improve vision "naturally" to the point at which it can allegedly eliminate the need for glasses by undoing a habitual strain to see.<ref name="Quackenbush"> {{cite book | last = Quackenbush | first = Thomas R. | title = Better Eyesight The complete magazines of William H. Bates | publisher = North Atlantic Books | date = 2000 | pages = page 643 | isbn = 1-55643-351-4 }}</ref> These claims are viewed with skepticism by ophthalmologists and optometrists, and in 1929 Bates was cited by the ] for false or misleading advertising in connection with his ] describing the method.<ref name='Quackwatch Bates'> {{cite web|url=http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/eyequack.html |title=Eye-Related Quackery |accessdate=2007-11-17 |last=Worrall |first=Russell S. |coauthors=Jacob Nevyas, Stephen Barrett |date=2007-09-12 "The claims Bates made in advertising his book were so dubious that in 1929 the Federal Trade Commission issued a complaint against him for advertising "falsely or misleadingly.""}}</ref> Although many people ] to have improved their eyesight by following his principles<ref>http://www.visionsofjoy.org/testimonials.htm</ref>, Bates' theories about vision continue to lack mainstream support.<ref name="educators">{{cite news | author=Robyn E. Bradley | title=ADVOCATES SEE ONLY BENEFITS FROM EYE EXERCISES | publisher=The Boston Globe (MA) | date=September 23, 2003 | url=http://visioneducators.com/articles/advocates_see_only_benefits_from_eye_exercises.pdf }}</ref><ref name=Marg>{{cite journal | author=Marg, E. | title="Flashes" of clear vision and negative accommodation with reference to the Bates Method of visual training. | journal=Am J Opt Arch Am Ac Opt | year=1952 | volume=29 | issue=4 | pages=167-84 | url=http://brain.berkeley.edu/pub/1952%20April%20Flashes%20of%20Clear%20Vision.pdf | format = ]}}</ref><ref name='J.Randi Bates'> {{cite web|url=http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-11/111706rampa.html#i3 |title=Swift: the weekly newsletter of the JREF |accessdate=2007-11-17 |last=Randi |first=James |date=2006-11-11 "This is pure old quackery, it’s wishful thinking, and it’s profitable."}}</ref>
:: You have a point. This isn't the main article. I just thought a mention would be appropriate here, but maybe not. -- ] (]) (''''']''''') 16:12, 18 March 2024 (UTC)


== History ==
*''']''' is a combination of modalities developed by Sharon Weiselfish, Ph.D., P.T., the originator of Developmental Manual Therapy. Integrative Manual Therapy borrows from ].<ref name='IMT'>{{cite book | last =Smith | first =T | authorlink = | coauthors =C. Maurice, G. Green, & S. C. Luce | title =Behavioral intervention for young children with autism: A manual for parents and professionals | publisher =Pro-Ed | date =1996 | location = | pages =45-59 | url = | doi = | id = | isbn =978-0890796832 }}
</ref>


The impact of pseudoscientific ideas ] (]) 16:27, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
*''']''' is the claim that scientific evidence shows the inferiority or superiority of certain races.<ref name='SciRac_Gould'>{{cite book | last = Gould | first = Stephen Jay | authorlink = Stephen Jay Gould | coauthors = | title = The Mismeasure of Man | publisher = W W Norton and Co. | date = 1981 | location = New York, NY | pages = 28-29 | url = http://en.wikipedia.org/The_Mismeasure_of_Man | doi = | id = | isbn = 0-393-01489-4 }} "Few tragedies can be more extensive than the stunting of life, few injustices deeper than the denial of an opportunity to strive or even to hope, by a limit imposed from without, but falsely identified as lying within." </ref><ref name='SciRac_CSI'> {{cite web|url=http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-09/scientific-ethics.html |title=Can the Sciences Help Us to Make Wise Ethical Judgments? |accessdate=2007-12-01 |last=Kurtz |first=Paul |date=2004-09 |work=Skeptical Inquirer Magazine |publisher=Committee for Skeptical Inquiry }} "There have been abundant illustrations of pseudoscientific theories-monocausal theories of human behavior that were hailed as "scientific"-that have been applied with disastrous results. Examples: ... Many racists today point to IQ to justify a menial role for blacks in society and their opposition to affirmative action." </ref>
: Yes, that's a legitimate topic. Have you checked the ] article? That's where we cover that topic. This is just a list article. -- ] (]) (''''']''''') 17:12, 4 April 2024 (UTC)


== Popper's views on historical materialism ==
*''']''' is the search for ]s believed to exist, but for which conclusive evidence is lacking. This includes both seeking out and cataloging undiscovered species in remote areas and searching for known animals believed to be extinct. While much of the planet, particularly the deep oceans, remains underexplored, claims of the more outré ] such as ] or ] are often considered pseudoscience by mainstream zoologists and biologists.{{Fact|date=December 2007}}


I wonder if the mention of Popper's views having been criticized is unwarranted. Almost all of these things being classified as pseudoscience are criticized by their proponents, and it'd be one thing if scientific publications were publishing these complaints, but it's entirely philosophy outlets or an "in-universe" so to speak communist journal. I'm going to remove them because as detailed in ] those aren't really the sources Misplaced Pages should be using on if something is considered pseudoscientific or not. ] (]) 03:37, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
==References==
Please put new sections above this one.


== Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2024 ==
{{reflist}}


{{Edit semi-protected|List of topics characterized as pseudoscience|answered=yes}}
<!-- Please keep this References section at the bottom of the page -->
Lunar effect on humans anb living beings have several scientific studies to avail, it makes no sense to mark it as pseudoscience would be like tampering science itself ] (]) 16:28, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
:]&nbsp;'''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> Happy Editing--''']]''' 18:57, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
::I think what the editor is trying to say is that there is ''some'' evidence that ''some'' human behavior is affected by the lunar cycle e.g. increased epileptic episodes, motorcycle accidents, and sleep disorders. (per the ] article.)
::Of course that doesn't mean there's not a whole bunch of pseudoscience attached to the topic so simply removing the entry would seem to be an overreaction. Perhaps we could be more circumspect in our synopsis, something similar to the wording at the ]:
:::The phase of the Moon does not influence fertility, cause a fluctuation in crime, or affect the stock market. There is no correlation between the ] and human biology or behavior. However, the increased amount of illumination during the full moon may account for increased epileptic episodes, motorcycle accidents, or sleep disorders.
::] (]) 20:04, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

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In July 2008 the Arbitration committee issued a further ruling in the case reported above: Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to pseudoscience, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.
? view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Why has my edit been reverted? What did I do wrong? A1: Check the edit history for the article. Hopefully, the editor who reverted you left a useful edit summary explaining why they feel the previous version of the article to be better; occasionally, links to various policies and guidelines are included. The most common reasons for reversion are that the article should not contain editorial bias and every statement should be cited to sources reliable to the topic at hand. If you disagree with the reasoning provided or otherwise wish a fuller discussion, please check the archives of this discussion page for a similar proposal or open a new section below. Q2: One entry to this list is better described as an emerging or untested area of research, not pseudoscience. A2: A few topics have several facets, only some of which are described by reliable sources as pseudoscience; multiple notable descriptions or points of view may be appropriately included as described in Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories. On the other hand, proponents of a particular topic characterized as pseudoscience almost always self-report as engaging in science. The several points of view should be weighted according to the reliability of the sources making each claim. Advocacy sources are reliable only for their own opinions - it is okay to state that Dr. X claims to have built a creature under the usual caveats for self-published sources, but the creature's exploits should be described as reported in independent sources. If the majority of scientists would be surprised by a claim, it is probably not mainstream science. Q3: Real scientists are investigating this topic, how can it be pseudoscience? A3: Respected researchers, even Nobel Prize laureates, sometimes have or propound ideas that are described by sources reliable to make the distinction as pseudoscience, especially when they are working outside of their core expertise. Q4: Why is the description so negative? Why not just describe the views covered and let the reader decide? A4: The Misplaced Pages policy Neutral point of view requires that the prominence of various views be reflected in the articles. We strive to summarize the tone and content of all available sources, weighted by their reliability. Reliable in this context means particulary that sources should be generally trusted to report honestly on and make the distinction between science and pseudoscience. Q5: Why does this article rely on such biased sources? A5 Scientists generally ignore pseudoscience, and only occasionally bother to rebut ideas before they have received a great deal of attention. Non-promotional descriptions of pseudoscience can only be had from second- and third-party sources. The following sources are almost always reliable sources for descriptions of pseudoscience: Q6: Isn't pseudoscience a philosophically meaningless term? A6 The term describes a notable concept in common use. Q7: Why is a particular topic omitted? A7 Some ideas are not notable enough to be included in an encyclopedia article; other topics have been explicitly rejected by the consensus of editors here at the talkpage. Please search the archives for relevant discussions before beginning a new one. Still, this list is far from complete, so feel free to suggest a topic or be bold and add it yourself. Q8: What relation does content here have to the four groupings (below) from the Arbitration Committee Decisions on Pseudoscience? A8 Many fail to understand the nature of this list. It is not exclusively about "Obvious pseudoscience", but, as the list's title indicates, about "topics characterized as pseudoscience" (emphasis added). That wording parallels the Arbcom description from group three: "but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience" (emphasis added). Therefore we include items covered in the first three groups below, but not the fourth. In this list, we refuse to decide whether an item is or is not an "obvious" pseudoscience (although most of them are ).
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The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to pseudoscience and fringe science, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience

In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines for the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. The final decision was as follows:

  • Neutral point of view as applied to science: Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience.
  • Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Misplaced Pages aspires to be such a respected work.
  • Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more justification.
  • Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.
  • Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized.
  • Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.

Deleted Section on EMDR as pseudoscience.

I deleted the section on Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) Therapy. The section was written with very old sources. EMDR now has good empirical support and an impressive research base from the APA and Cleveland Clinic and is a notable treatment for PTSD.

https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/treatments/eye-movement-reprocessing

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/22641-emdr-therapy#:~:text=Eye%20movement%20desensitization%20and%20reprocessing%20(EMDR)%20therapy%20is%20a%20mental,or%20other%20distressing%20life%20experiences. Malfesto (talk) 19:40, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Reverted this since its better to bring this up in talk first. This entry literally has a section called "Pseudoscience", so it meets the criteria for this list. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:49, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Falsifiability in lead

We need a statement about this in the lead. Let's try to formulate something. Here are a few thoughts to work with (and correct if necessary):

If a claim is not falsifiable, it is not a pseudoscientific claim. All scientific claims are falsifiable, and if a belief makes no falsifiable claims, in other words no claim to be scientific, it is not pseudoscientific, but may be classed as a religious belief. The moment a religion makes falsifiable claims, those claims are subject to examination and, if they are falsified, they are then classed as pseudoscientific claims, and many pseudoscientific claims have been falsified.

Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:23, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The lead word "pseudoscience" takes the reader to the definition. Do we need to duplicate part of another article here? Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
You have a point. This isn't the main article. I just thought a mention would be appropriate here, but maybe not. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:12, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

History

The impact of pseudoscientific ideas 41.115.108.76 (talk) 16:27, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's a legitimate topic. Have you checked the History of pseudoscience article? That's where we cover that topic. This is just a list article. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:12, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Popper's views on historical materialism

I wonder if the mention of Popper's views having been criticized is unwarranted. Almost all of these things being classified as pseudoscience are criticized by their proponents, and it'd be one thing if scientific publications were publishing these complaints, but it's entirely philosophy outlets or an "in-universe" so to speak communist journal. I'm going to remove them because as detailed in WP:FRINGE those aren't really the sources Misplaced Pages should be using on if something is considered pseudoscientific or not. XeCyranium (talk) 03:37, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2024

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Lunar effect on humans anb living beings have several scientific studies to avail, it makes no sense to mark it as pseudoscience would be like tampering science itself 2806:106E:1C:3032:940D:9B46:3679:2CC6 (talk) 16:28, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 18:57, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
I think what the editor is trying to say is that there is some evidence that some human behavior is affected by the lunar cycle e.g. increased epileptic episodes, motorcycle accidents, and sleep disorders. (per the Lunar effect article.)
Of course that doesn't mean there's not a whole bunch of pseudoscience attached to the topic so simply removing the entry would seem to be an overreaction. Perhaps we could be more circumspect in our synopsis, something similar to the wording at the List of common misconceptions:
The phase of the Moon does not influence fertility, cause a fluctuation in crime, or affect the stock market. There is no correlation between the lunar cycle and human biology or behavior. However, the increased amount of illumination during the full moon may account for increased epileptic episodes, motorcycle accidents, or sleep disorders.
Mr. Swordfish (talk) 20:04, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
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