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== Balham station merge ==

A couple of days ago I merged ] and ] into ], since they're a conjoined interchange complex and it's standard practice to cover those in one article. For anyone unfamiliar with the station, the two sections are co-located and the interchange involves a short flight of stairs from the rail station ticket office that leads directly into the tube ticket hall. It's a lot like ] (and many others) though on a much smaller scale. Support or reject? --] (]) 20:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

:As anyone with a knowledge of my history will be unsurprised to hear, strong support for the merge from me. I'd far rather have one long article than two stubs in every circumstance.<font face="Trebuchet MS"> — ]]</font> 21:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

::Agreed, it should be a single article, as per ] for example.&nbsp;&ndash; ]<small> ]</small> 21:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Agreed on the merge. Should we have a very big article would could always break it out again.] (]) 21:18, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Due to an ongoing edit war, i have requested protection until this can be sorted. ] (]) 02:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
;Misplaced Pages procedures for mergers, : Please see: ] and post in ], and announce it in ] and ]... Above process has not been done. YET, the merger has taken place. Guidelines are clear and precise and are suppose to be followed. The merger templates placed in both articles in question, and all talk sections concerning the merger copied into one Talk page and referenced in the merger template. By announcing it in the Proposed merger page and in WikiProj pages will give others in the Trains and LT communities to review and comment. This process can take 1-2 weeks, sometimes longer. At this point, the discusion is closed and votes taken. THEN the articles are merged with no loss of history or aritcle information... and all Talk pages are merged as well... all images are recheck for any conflicts. But running rough-shod over the merger is not correct. ] (]) 08:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

::I see that ] has remerged the articles shortly before page protection was applied, thereby effectively "hiding" the existing discussions on the validity of the merge behind the redirects (as well as, annoyingly, preventing me adding some new/better images to both pages today), and is rather pathetically arguing on ] that it's a case of "objecting" to the merge rather than going through a proper merge process, claiming - but not being able to cite - previous "agreement" elsewhere. If there has been such consensus, and the crietria for merging station articles is documented and clear - and can therefore provide a solid basis for a merge proposal - then fair enough, but this is all making a mockery of what should be the proper merge procedure. ] (]) 09:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I've started a formal merger discussion ] --] (]) 16:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

=== Cosy cliquey ===

To suggest that a 44 minute exchange on a Saturday night between four editors, not on any of the pages in question, constitutes the "clear consensus" claimed relating to the above merge is grotesque nonsense. ] (]) 22:37, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Proper merge procedure should be followed, as per ] comment on ]. ] (]) 09:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

: Four editors agree on the merge... one objects. I think thats a majority decision, and clear consensus. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 08:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::To be fair - this wasn't exactly a formal discussion. It would be fine as support for a non-controversial change, but as there is clearly some dispute, a full discussion should take place, as I see it is.&nbsp;&ndash; ]<small> ]</small> 09:09, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

:::To be fair, this only became a controversial issue ''after'' the merge had taken place. What was done was to bring the page in line with what has been common practice elsewhere; co-located tube and railway stations have frequently been described in the same article (unless there has been enough content to justify a split). Remember that Misplaced Pages policy states that editors should ], unless a topic is likely to be controversial. Quoting from ]:
::::''Merging is a normal editing action, something any editor can do, and as such does not need to be proposed and processed. If you think merging something improves the encyclopedia, you can ] and perform the merge, as described below. Because of this, it makes little sense to object to a merge purely on procedural grounds, e.g. "you cannot do that without discussion" is not a good argument.''
:::Bringing an article into line with similar ones should not be so controversial, and the fact that four editors agreed with the merge adds weight to the idea that this is a normal practice. Therefore I can see no reason why a formal merge discussion was needed here. The flawed "you cannot do that without discussion" argument seems to be in use here. --] (]) 15:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
:: Four editors, off the pages in question, "agreed" it in 44 minutes on a Saturday night. Hardly an open and wide-ranging debate. Subsequently, of course, if is clear that more than one person is objecting. ] (]) 16:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

== Railcard Template ==

I think the articles ], ] etc would benefit from a template along the lines of <nowiki>{{Template:British railway ticket systems (computerised)}}</nowiki>. Any comments? More to the point, does anyone know how to implement it? <span style="border: 2px solid black; text-align:center; background: lightblue; text-color: orange; link: orange; vlink: green">''']''' - ] - ]</span> 16:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

:How about a navbox with one for tickets covering the UK and tickets specifically for cities? Does it have to be limited to railcards? ] (]) 16:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

::I was thinking along the lines of discount cards (for want of a better expression). For example the ] article makes no mention at all of the other national railcards (YP, Family and Disabled). There are also the Forces Railcard, and the New Deal Railcard (issued by jobcentres) as well as various local cards (Heart of Wales, Cotswold) and of course the Network Railcard so it's quite a big topic in itself.
::I can have a look through retail manuals etc to try and come up with a list of discount cards? <span style="border: 2px solid black; text-align:center; background: lightblue; text-color: orange; link: orange; vlink: green">''']''' - ] - ]</span> 17:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

:::EDIT: To illustrate my last comment i've come up with this list of tickets that can be issued in ] - note it is not definitive, as cards issued by councils and other agencies (for example New Deal Railcard and Forces Railcard) are not shown. See ]. all are valid for 12 months. <span style="border: 2px solid black; text-align:center; background: lightblue; text-color: orange; link: orange; vlink: green">''']''' - ] - ]</span> 17:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

::::There's also cards like ] and ]. ] (]) <small>—Preceding ] was added at 19:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::::In my view they are a whole different ballgame - railcards/discount cards entitle the holder to a discount, and as such I think they should be grouped together, if only to show readers the variety of schemes on offer. Oyster is a travelcard/payment card, and as far as I can tell so is Zonecard - in essence they are season tickets. <span style="border: 2px solid black; text-align:center; background: lightblue; text-color: orange; link: orange; vlink: green">''']''' - ] - ]</span> 19:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::I agree with you, ]. I think a template with the different types of "national" discounted railcards would be a good idea , in order to link them together along with ]. As for season ticket cards such as ] and ], I think there's less need for a template linking these: it's more important that these are linked to the relevant ] as opposed to each other. ] (]) 19:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

:The way i'm imagining it is a box with links to different discount fare schemes, with sections for National R/Cs (YP, Senior, Family, Disabled, Forces, New Deal) and, if considered appropriate Local R/Cs (Network etc). Maybe a list of 'See also' links will suffice, however the 'ticket issuing systems' template I cited above looks a lot better than any list of links, in my opinion. <span style="border: 2px solid black; text-align:center; background: lightblue; text-color: orange; link: orange; vlink: green">''']''' - ] - ]</span> 22:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

::D'oh just realised I've somehow cited the wrong template above - should show this one - <nowiki>{{Template:British railway ticket machines (computerised)}}</nowiki>. Sorry for any confusion! I've had a go at producing a new template for Railcards - please have a look and provide some feedback: ]. Note most of the regional schemes, to prevent redlinks link to sections of the article ] for now. <span style="border: 2px solid black; text-align:center; background: lightblue; text-color: orange; link: orange; vlink: green">''']''' - ] - ]</span> 16:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Since there have been no objections I'll go ahead and insert the template into the relevant articles. --<span style="border: 2px solid black; text-align:center; background: lightblue; text-color: orange; link: orange; vlink: green">''']''' - ] - ]</span> 22:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

::::I've converted it to standard {{tl|Navbox}} format - feel free to discuss/revert as appropriate.&nbsp;]<small> ]</small> 12:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

== Newport station ==

WP:RM Newport --> Newport (Gwent). See ] ] (]) 21:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

==Bloxwich==

I'm trying to find a citation for the opening dates for ] (1989) and ] (1990). The ] reopened in 1989 so I'm fairly certain of the dates, however they are the last things needing citations at ]. Can anybody help? <span style="border: 2px solid black; text-align:center; background: lightblue; text-color: orange; link: orange; vlink: green">''']''' - ] - ]</span> 16:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

:Confirmed. Ref is {{cite book|last=Boynton|first=John|title=A Century of Railways around Birmingham and the West Midlands Volume Three 1973-1999|isbn=0-9522248-6-0}}&nbsp;&ndash; ]<small> ]</small> 17:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

::Many thanks. Had a feeling one of his books would cover it. <span style="border: 2px solid black; text-align:center; background: lightblue; text-color: orange; link: orange; vlink: green">''']''' - ] - ]</span> 17:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

:::When I originally created the page about 18 months ago, I got those dates from a book called "''A-Z of Rail Reopenings''", published in 1992 by the Railway Development Society (see the ). This was in the days when WP editors weren't demanding everything be sourced, so I didn't feel obliged to include a reference! Technically, I still have the book, but it's in an attic 3000 miles away from me, so it's not a lot of use right now..... --] 22:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

== Station disambiguation ==

This may have been discussed before. Do we have a recommendation for disambiguating station names? Suppose there are two stations called "Chigley". To disambiguate, do you name an article ''(a)'' "Chigley (Trumptonshire) railway station" or ''(b)'' "Chigley railway station, Trumptonshire"? To my mind, ''(b)'' is preferrable, and in line with how other geographical articles are disambiguated. However, ''(a)'' should be used if the official name of the station is "Chigley (Trumptonshire)". Any views on this? --] (]) 18:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

:I always thought a was widely used until i saw those in Sydney. ] (]) 18:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

::Some are disambiguated by other items, such as the name of the line, an example being ]. It would seem somewhat strange in that case to disambiguate by county, as the station site is within the West Midlands county today, but during its entire life from build to destruction it was within Staffordshire, meaning that ''Bentley (West Midlands) railway station'' just comes across as being very wrong (as it never was), yet ''Bentley (Staffordshire) railway station'' isn't right either. 18:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC) <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) {{{2|}}}</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:IIRC, the ] for naming places is ''Name, Locality'' so while for ticketing, etc. the name displayed would be "''CHIGLEY (TRUMPTONSHIRE)''" (truncation notwithstanding), the form "''Chigley railway station, Trumptonshire''" looks and reads better for Misplaced Pages's purposes. ] (]) 20:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

::Regarding the naming style, "]" is used as that's what appears in places such as the index to the National Rail Timetable; hence we have ended up with ], even though that's in the ](!).

::Regarding the Bentley situation, perhaps "Bentley (Walsall) railway station"/"Bentley railway station, Walsall" would be a suitable compromise? --] (]) 23:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

== Disused/Historical route info templates ==

An interesting debate has arisen over which route box template should be used to describe the route info for a closed station on an open or closed line. At the moment there are two: <nowiki>>{{Disused Rail Start}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{Historical Rail Start}}</nowiki>. The former came first, the latter was added by ] as "'''Disused' did not give enough scope on lines that were still open but with the occasional closed station''"; see the debate here . In the interests of a uniform approach to closed UK lines, I think it's necessary to either choose one single template or to define parameters for when "disused" and when "historical" is to be used. I have used "disused rail start" for four reasons: (1) the term "disused railways" is accepted as the general term for describing closed routes (see here and here ) and closed stations and open routes; (2) "historical railways" is a misnomer in the sense that a closed railway line or station is not inherently historical in the dictionary definition of the term (here:); (3) Ordnance Survey refers to "dismantled" or "disused" railways", and (4) "disused railways" and "historical railways" have different connotations, the former giving the idea of a railway no longer in use, while the latter suggests (in my view) a special category of railways which are particularly known for one reason or another. I don't honestly mind which one is chosen, as long as there is a consensus on the matter. ] (]) 19:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
:I don't really have a preference for either, but there is another thing to consider problem here. Some stations have closed and then re-opened, sometimes slightly along the line, ], which I visited today is an example. The original station is both disused and historic(al) (in the non-notable sense), however Adwick Railway station is in fact open. ] (]) 19:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
::As several of us within ] have been working our way round Scotland (] on the ex G&SW routes; ] in the Western Highlands; and myself more recently with the ex-] routes) and have been attempting to provide not only the current arrangement, but also the context in which the line was built - specifically the originating company. The quotation from Dreamer84 summarises the reason for the current use. The dictionary definition above includes ''belonging to the past'' and in my mind the information given is ''historical'' as the railway company refered to is in the past. --]<small><font color="maroon"><sup> ''']'''</sup></font></small> 20:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
:::I disagree with the POV on "historical railways". Historical railway is the correct term when it is used to refer to the company that built the line, such as the Great Western Railway or the Glasgow & South Western Railway. Modern spin is to give a line as name such as the "Badger line" - I don't know whether that line exists - but it may. ] is an example of what is now a rebuilt terminal station on a line now known as the ]; however the line was built by the Glasgow and South Western railway (G&SWR), so the historical template (correctly) refers to the preceding and succeeding stations on the G&SWR) which are not the same as the current stations. I consider that there are valid uses for "historical railways" and "disused railways".] (]) 20:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
::::If historical railway is a US term, not used in the UK, why are there books such as:
::::*Simmons & Biidle (1997). ''The Oxford companion to British Railway History: from 1603 to the 1990s. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
::::*Hammilton Ellis (1959). British Railway History: An outline from the Accession of William IV to the Nationalisation of Railways''. Vol 1. 1830-1876 & Vol. 2. 1877-1947. London: George Allen and Unwin Ltd.
::::*]'s "A Regional History of the Railways of Great Britain''.
:::::] (]) 21:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
::::::My understanding is that both templates link to the same category, so its not that big an issue. That said, to me historical says to me the early railway companies, such as the Liverpool & Manchester, Stockton & Darlington, Surrey Iron Railway, Canterbury & Whitstable etc. One thing I have noticed is that many stationboxes do not show the changes through the years, such as change of owner, change of previous/next station etc. Check out the stations and halts on the ] to see what I mean. ] (]) 21:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I have always had doubts as to the usefulness of having the previous/next station boxes providing historical information, either on articles about closed stations, or about open stations with closed lines. The fundamental problem is this: ''it has to be obvious exactly which part of history, or what year, the box is referring to''. For instance, consider ]. The main line south of Derby has, since opening, been operated by the ], ], ], ]/] and ] (ignoring the present-day operator). That's one problem. Second, what the next station down the line has been will have varied throughout time, too. Having these boxes whilst simultaneously dealing with these issues could potentially lead to having incredibly large templates which dominate articles. I advise caution! --] (]) 23:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

::The principle I have followed when adding <nowiki>{{Historical Rail Start}}</nowiki> to articles is to add the original company and adjacent stations. I also add an indication if the line to the next/previous station is still open; and if the next/previous station is still open. ] is an interesting case in point here as the ] to ] is closed, whilst both stations are open.

::The key here is that the line/route/original company in the previous/next box is linked and the history of the route, opening, closing, amalgamation, takeover, current operations is (should be) provided - see ] and ] as an example. Even better in this case as a Heritage Railway operates here as well. --]<small><font color="maroon"><sup> ''']'''</sup></font></small> 10:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

==Previous/Next Station Boxes==

I can't find any discussion on here regarding a standard for previous and next station boxes. I was prompted to look at this by ]'s cautionary words about historical previous/next station boxes in certain circumstances leading to the potential for huge templates dominating articles.

I believe the reason, certainly in the case of ] is because of the way station boxes are strictly sitting with route definitions, and editors have perceived a need to create a box for each "route" without an evaluation as to whether or not the definition of that route is accurate. This has created huge duplication and it's misleading for a user following a route using the previous / next station boxes as their source of reference.

I would suggest that the whole concept of previous/next station boxes in relation to routes is examined to try and eliminate this huge duplication. (The definition of some of the routes out of Manchester Victoria needs very careful evaluation as well. I'd like to work on this after I've finished the Caldervale, and I have a few ideas for definition, but I believe that they should go up for discussion first.) I would suggest that one previous and next box per physical line per operator is all that's needed. ] (]) 03:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

::I would agree here regarding the current opeators of stations. I have noticed especially on the ] routes that multiple (stopping) patterns are given. At this point the information is starting to provide timetable-like information. --]<small><font color="maroon"><sup> ''']'''</sup></font></small> 10:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

:::The situation could be eased by removing the operator/line from the stationbox. That way all that needs to be shown for each station box is previous/next station(s). IMHO a separate box is required each time there is a change, with dates (as per Hundred of Hoo stations). ] (]) 10:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

::::An example - Paddock Wood

{{Disused Rail Start}}
{{rail line|previous=Tonbridge|route=May 31 1842 to September 24 1844<br>South Eastern Railway<small>|next=Marden|col=FECB09}}
{{rail line|previous=Tonbridge|route= September 25 1844 to September 30 1892<br>South Eastern Railway<small>|next=Marden<br>Yalding|col=FECB09}}
{{rail line|previous=Tonbridge|route= October 1 1844 to December 31 1898<br>South Eastern Railway<small>|next=Marden<br>Yalding<br>Horsmonden|col=FECB09}}
{{rail line|previous=Tonbridge|route= January 1 1899 to August 31 1909<br>South Eastern Railway and Chatham Railway<small>|next=Marden<br>Yalding<br>Horsmonden|col=FECB09}}
{{rail line|previous=Tonbridge|route= September 1 1906 to December 31 1922<br>South Eastern Railway and Chatham Railway<small>|next=Marden<br>Beltring & Branbridges<br>Horsmonden|col=FECB09}}
{{rail line|previous=Tonbridge|route= January 1 1923 to December 31 1947<br>Southern Railway Railway<small>|next=Marden<br>Beltring & Branbridges<br>Horsmonden|col=FECB09}}
{{rail line|previous=Tonbridge|route= January 1 1948 to June 10 1961<br>British Railways (Southern Region)<small>|next=Marden<br>Beltring & Branbridges<br>Horsmonden|col=FECB09}}
{{rail line|previous=Tonbridge|route= June 11 1961 to March 31 1994<br>British Railways (Southern Region)<small>|next=Marden<br>Beltring & Branbridges|col=FECB09}}
{{rail line|previous=Tonbridge|route= April 1 1994 to October 2 2002<br>Railtrack<small>|next=Marden<br>Beltring & Branbridges|col=FECB09}}
{{end}}
{{rail start}}
{{rail line|previous=Tonbridge|route= From October 3 2002<br>Network Rail<small>|next=Marden<br>Beltring & Branbridges|col=FECB09}}
{{end}}Thus giving the complete history of the station, with all changes when they occured. ] (]) 10:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

: Yuck! In my view, having a separate entry for every company (each one running an identical route) is definitely ''not'' what the route box is for; that sort of information can be provided in the text. --] (]) 12:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
:: I agree with the sentiment, but it ends up too unwieldy. Also the previous owners of the line are not disused, but defunct (which is actually what the link is says). You may also get examples where the station/line has changed ownership but the previous company is not defunct. ] (]) 13:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

:::] has quite a big preceding / following station info box, but I believe it is still acceptable. Its not too overwhelming in respect of the information provided about the station. The same comment also applies to ].] (]) 15:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

::::I agree with "yuck", and refer everyone to my remarks . --] (]) 16:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

A simple soultion, if possible. If everyone is fed up on space, could the rail boxes be designed so that they can be hidden like navboxes? ] (]) 16:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

:I like the idea of hiding/showing them if possible. I must admit that I've rather given up on editing these as everyone seems to have their own idea of what should be in them. My preferred version is just one line per TOC per physical route, and no wrapping in the box to fit in slow/fast/named services. Compare with ]. ] (]) 16:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
::Concur with Geof. There's just not much mileage in showing stopping patterns unless there's an actual physical difference in the route taken (and then it's different line anyhow). ] ] 17:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

== Citations for ] ==

For those of you who don't have ] on your watchlists, an ultimatum from another experienced editor has been placed on the talk page that all unsourced definitions will be removed from the list in February. A similar message was added to ] at the same time; I've gone through a stack of references to add citations to that article, but as I know much less about British railway practice than I do about US practice, I would strongly encourage editors in this project to chip in and add references as appropriate. I'll be looking through what I have, but any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated. ] <small><font color="black">]</font></small> 19:42, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
:Hey guys,
:Further to what Slambo said, the page (aswell as the US one) has also been exported over to , where we are a lot less strict on citations, particularly with things like this - as it's what we exist for!
:So, in future, if you can't reference something, please add it there!
:Oh and Slambo, don't worry - i'll with what I can here!
:Thanks all,
:'''<font face="Verdana">]]</font>''' 20:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
::I've put a few suggestions on that article's talk page.] (]) 14:25, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

== Co-located tube and railway stations ==

Following the ongoing debate about at ] which shows no sign of ending any time soon, I've done some research on where we have either one or two articles describing such situations. The results of this are presented in my userspace at ].

This is part of an attempt to put to rest once and for all the question of when single articles are needed, and when not. My view is that a single article is all that is required unless the page size guidelines justify it (e.g. the old 32KB limit is exceeded: see ]), or the complexity of the stations concerned demand it (e.g. ]). Neither of these appear to apply to ].

Members of this project are invited to comment. (Please continue the discussion on this page!). Thanks, --] (]) 03:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

:] comes to mind here. When you start to read the article it appears to refer to all three stations in this area, however further down the wikilink to ], with this article covering the Thameslink and North London Line stations. The platforms here are probably closer than in some London Termini. Mention is made of the interchange possibilities and extension to the Chiltern Lines.

: My view is that duplication of information across ''co-located'' articles is avoided. This could lead to contradictory information if edits are not kept up to date. --]<small><font color="maroon"><sup> ''']'''</sup></font></small> 08:50, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Where stations are co located having one article does make more sense to me. But we may need to change article titles to better reflect the status. Where stations are very closely related, like Balham, West Hampstead, Vauxhall then to me having an XXXXX stations are article with appropriate redirects makes sense. For some large stations with extensive histories this may not always work but we can bring ] into play in those cases. ] (]) 17:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

::It would seem that the majority of articles are OK 'as-is'. The West Hampstead stations are clearly separate entities, and deserve to be treated independently. The two Balham stations are also clearly separate, but built next to one another, so the present article title is wrong: it should be "Balham station'''s'''". But I think I would prefer to see them dealt with in separate articles too. There is little point having multiple articles for places such as the Bakerloo stations between Queen's Park and Harrow, Greenford, and Ealing Broadway (which is missing from your list) as they are clearly single stations, sharing platforms and/or tracks. However, where there are adjacent stations built by different companies that are connected -- Balham and Paddington (Circle/District) being two obvious examples -- the history of these stations might be better served by having split articles.
::] (]) 00:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

:::The point isn't that they're separate stations, I'm aware of that. The point is that, because they are co-located, there is material that is common to both stations, and would therefore need to be duplicated in both articles. Also, the presence of the interchange is one of the most important things about somewhere like Balham.

:::I've added Ealing Broadway to the list; I missed it because I was working through ] (and its subcategories), from which it was missing! --] (]) 02:11, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

::::WP:LT founder - The rule has always been join the articles together. The only exceptions are when the article becomes to long or the stations are physically seperated from each other. ] (]) 13:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

:As a rail buff, my view would be different (and would have nothing to do with article size): Stations that were built separately and/or built to be used by separate services should have separate articles, unless the stations are now part of the same rail system. Examples: ] should only have one article, even though the Blue Line station was built much later than the Green/Red line station, because the entire complex is used by the ]; ] should, in principle, have separate articles for the ] and ] stations, even though they are located in the same tunnel structure and were built at the same time, because they were built to be used by the separate services and still are so used. (In that particular case, I think a good argument could be made for the single article that currently exists there, but in general I think physically separate stations used by separate services deserve separate articles.) --] (]) 19:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

::As anyone who's watched the saga at ] will be unsurprised to hear, I'm in favour of keeping the articles together when possible in cases like Ealing Broadway where there's interchange within the building. For stations like West Hampstead, Kings Cross/St Pancras, Vauxhall where the stations are right next to each other there's enough of a grey area that I'd keep them separate, and ''certainly'' keep such dubious alleged "interchanges" as Bow Road/Church, Hammersmith, Tower Hill/Gateway and Southwark/Waterloo East separate. If anyone wants to open a fresh can of worms, if we're treating the Bakerloo and Northern platforms at Charing Cross as a single station, we really ought to treat Bank & Monument as one as well, since the platforms are nearer and interchange is easier at the latter. And we haven't yet got started on Paddington...<font face="Trebuchet MS"> — ]]</font> 19:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Thanks to everybody for their comments. I must confess to having said "oh no" to myself, when I read the comment which began "As a rail buff ". We should remember that we are supposed to be writing for a general audience, not for (fellow) "rail buffs". While I must confess to being one myself, when writing these articles I try to remember that things should be written from the point of view of a general reader. Unfortunately, this is something which seems to be lost on some editors to railway-related articles.

:::The San Francisco case cited seems to be a clear-cut case of precisely when articles should definitely ''not'' be split. Practically everything that needs to be said is common to both parts, so a single article makes perfect sense.

:::Also, the person who commented about "rules" should be aware that there aren't any rules as such; what this exercise was partly meant to do was to demonstrate what existing ''custom and practice'' is, and from that to try and determine some guidelines in order to avoid future incidents such as ].

:::Incidentally, we already do treat ] (and ]) with a single article. --] (]) 21:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

::::Agreed that we should be ''writing'' for a general audience, but there's no point in pretending that we ''know'' as little about the issues involved as a general audience would. In the case of ], the best arguments for keeping this as a single article are, IMO: (1) there's not enough material to justify either article on its own; (2) the two stations share a ticketing facility (the concourse level described in the article). However, I think the second consideration is more important here, and if the two stations had separate entrances and ticketing facilities, I think they would need separate articles, even quite short ones.

::::Another consideration (arguing against myself now): If, say, ] were split into separate articles, where would the ] link then go? As an editor who works on disambiguation as well, my feeling is that having dab pages for the many stations that would need this treatment might be a bit much, and arguably would make the articles less useful for readers. But having a redirect to one of the station's articles also results in usability problems and has the potential for move-warring *shudder*.

::::Ultimately, I think my main point is that some kind of logical principle, rather than article length, should dictate how we handle these articles. --] (]) 19:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::Having a single article for co-located stations seems quite a logical principle to me. --] (]) 21:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

== Places which should link to railway stations ==

I've made a list of places in Great Britain that should link to their local railway stations:

]

Feel free to add links to these places and remove them from the list.

This list was generated automatically, it might include articles that have the same name as a station, but are not about the location of that station. Please check. Some of the stations are disused. Hope this is helpful. ] (]) 13:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

::Sectionised the list and made a few changes. --]<small><font color="maroon"><sup> ''']'''</sup></font></small> 14:41, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

:::It's a pity no attempt whatsoever was made to disambiguate so many pages. For example 'Valley' links to the physical-geographic term. I did some dags, but got fed up in the end. --] (]) 16:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

== Colours and slam door trains ==

I just thought it would be easier if i placed two different topics under one title

Do people think that the colours list above for the TOCs should become a sub-page of the project? ] (]) 19:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

:Yes, that seems like a good idea. I was about to archive this talk page anyway, so I can create a subpage when I do that. --] (]) 01:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
::I've created the list: ]. Comments and corrections welcome! --] (]) 02:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

:::And a reason i kept it back here before was because of the possible clash of NXEC and NXEA. ] (]) 11:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Could i request that someone create an article on the colloqialism of Slam-door trains? ] (]) 19:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

:"Colloquialism of slam-door trains"? What do you mean exactly? --] (]) 01:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

::I mean that there are numerous classes of trains or trains together colloquially known as slam-door trains or along the lines of this. ] (]) 11:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Isn't the term at least partly synonymous with ]? (though I note that doesn't use it anywhere) --] (]) 14:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

::::Not quite: that is mostly true of the DC EMUs found on the old Southern Region, but there were (and still are) other trains with slam doors, based on the ] and ]. --] (]) 16:03, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

==How strict is the definition of UK?==

Does the UK Railways Wikiproject cover the Isle of Man and Channel Isles? If not, should it do so? What is the situation with Eire, which was part of the UK until 1923. Should this be the Great Britain Railways Wikiproject? ] (]) 08:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

: I think you might be opening a can of worms there! I can see your point, the history of the railways upto 1923 should be in the UK one, maybe... ] (]) 09:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

::I don't know about Ireland, but the talk pages of articles such as ] and ] are already tagged as being within the scope of this project.&nbsp;]<small> ]</small> 09:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:::It looks like this subject needs further discussion. I'm minded to make a proposal that this wikiproject covers all railways in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Eire, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. This needs to be thoroughly discussed and a consensus reached before any changes are made though. Any articles already tagged can stay tagged for now, until consensus is reached, but no other Irish, IoM or CI railway articles should be tagged until such consensus is reached. Would this discussion be better on here, or a dedicated sub page? ] (]) 10:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

::::I've been through the talk archives, A question about the Isle of Man was asked in the most recent archive, but not answered. ] (]) 11:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for discussing this. I think that we must be careful to stress that any labels are geographical not political! For myself I would have thought that from a geographical standpoint, Isle of Man and Channel Island railways would be best covered under the umbrella of UK railways - don't know about Ireland though - what about starting an Irish Railways wikiproject? Would it be possible to change the name of the UK railways project to "Railways in the British Isles" or some such? This would cover all bases surely (do Irishmen regard Eire as located in the "British" Isles though? - this may be a ticklish and sensitive subject and I apologise if I have already unknowingly trodden on anyone's toes here!)

Mjroots - thanks for letting me know about this discussion. I'm not an IOM resident but have always had a huge affection for the IOM railway system (I first encountered it in about 1970 - just after most of it closed!). Best ] (]) 14:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

] makes interesting reading but I think it is ultimately unhelpful. "Railways of IONA" sounds weird to me. "Railways of the British Isles and Ireland" would cover it I think but is a bit unwieldy - I'd settle for that though! Best ] (]) 14:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:Agree with Witchwooder - this is not about politics; Firstly it's geographical - the British Isles as a whole are a defineable area. Secondly, it's historical - whether those in Eire like it or not, for centuries the history of their country was inextricably linked with that of the United Kingdom (just stating a fact here}. The British Isles includes Eire, so it would be covered by that title.

: Re the Irish railways Wikiproject, that can be something for the future. If the consensus is to expand the coverage, then all the railway related articles will need tagging and assessing. The new tags should bring in more members to this Wikiprject. Irish railways can still be split off at a later date. ] (]) 15:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

::I've been '''bold''' and made a couple of proposals and created a subpage for the discussion ]! ] (]) 15:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

== Metric/Imperial system (Moved from Talk:WestCoastway line) ==

what is the policy of using the metric/imprial system around here. Some of the articles such as East coastway line only use Km where a this one the West coast wayline only uses Miles and Chains. Standardisation needs to occur regrding these articles. Also as this is not just UK wikipedia or US wikipedia or EU wikipedia. A convertion to the metric system or imperial system is needed depending on the system chosen.--] (]) 13:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:This has already been talked about Lucy-marie as you should well remember (), the UK railway uses the imprial system for distances (miles, chains and feet) so that is the correct units of measurement to use on WP - so until such time as the UK railways convert... ] (]) 15:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not here to start another war I am here to try and standardise the units and in accordance with the way units are presented. Work out the best way to represent both the metric and the imperial as Misplaced Pages is for the whole of the world and not just england. The units used in england may be principly miles and chains. If so why aren't all uk articles on this issue in this system and why is there no metric equivelent in bracket afterwards.--] (]) 20:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:Articles are supposed to be optimised for readers. Most readers of UK railway articles will be from the UK where the imperial system is used for distance and as such articles should reflect this. Whilst recognising that this isn't just "UK wikipedia", it is not appropriate to try to find some global standard for this as any standardisation would disadvantage readers. UK railway articles should use imperial with a metric conversion following if appropriate. See the {{tl|convert}} template for some ways of doing this. ] (]) 20:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

::I would also add that the next two largest populations most likely to read this (English language) version of Misplaced Pages are those from the USA and Canada - both of those countries still use the Imperial system (not sure if Australia still does?). ] (]) 20:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

::: "I am not here to start another war ..."! Would you like me to copy/paste extracts from the previous discussions here for all to see. I think that it has been made quite clear to you on several occasions what the policy is, and to come here (yet again) and feign ignorance is quite breathtaking. Please remember ]. ] (]) 08:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

::::Excuse me but please assume good faith and if necessary read ] and ]. I am here to try and find a way to sort out a problem with in uk trains articles through discussions and certain languge above does not contribute to a discusion on the content, in a civil manner.--] (]) 10:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::If there is a problem (with WP) it's people who know nothing about the subject (in question), interfering and then trying to play the WP rules against those who do when the answer to the 'problem' raised is not what they want... ] (]) 10:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

::::: "I am here to try and find a way to sort out a problem with in uk trains articles ...". I think that the ] is that there is no problem. The only "problem" if one exists is your ], and trying to make an issue where other editors disagree. Apart from you, all the other editors agree that the UK should use imperial units ... there is no problem. Accordingly, please direct your efforts to other more pressing issues for the UK train projects, of which a list can be found on the project home page. ] (]) 11:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::I don't disagree with the arguments regarding the imperial system, I am just querying why east coast way and west coast way templates use diffrent units. I am also querying why there is no metric equivalent in brackets. As that is usually standard practice on all articles. I am not here for personal attacks, could users please refrain, from attacks and the past and discuss the issue at hand.--] (]) 15:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::: Just to clarify, I would agree with ] that UK rail articles ought to use imperial units first, but it is also desirable that there is a metric conversion in brackets afterwards. Is there a consensus to agree with this? And if there is, should we state this as project policy on the project page or an appropriate sub-page?

:::::: P.S. As many readers won't know what a chain is, I would suggest that any measurement in chains should ''always'' be followed by a conversion (to yards or fractions of a mile, as well as metric.) --] (]) 13:28, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Why?! This is an encyclopedia and thus people can (re)search what they don't understand or know - putting "chain measurement" into the WP search box , chains as a unit of measurement being the top level search result. There is another issue here and that is (as I said in the original discussion) one of readability, articles can soon become a jumble of bracketed alternate facts, far from enlightening they just end up confusing. I'm not suggesting that equivalent units should not be used along side, just that it should not be policy but down to common sense and section consensus. ] (]) 14:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::::The aricles should avoid where possible confusion, ambiguity and unecessary linking away from articles. I do not see why if chains are to be the principle units, miles and the metric units cannot be included in addition.--] (]) 15:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::Because it's not needed and could well affect the clarity of the article. If you read a book and don't know what a word means you look it up in a dictionary, you don't expect there to be a definition of the words meaning on the page of the books - never mind next to the said word - why should WP be any different in this respect? ] (]) 15:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

::That creates a disparty of information uecssarily. As was said earlier few people will know what chains are and yards should be included. Metric units are by convention placed next to the imperial units, I cannot see a problem with aditional information on the pages.--] (]) 15:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


== Which sort of DMU is this? ==
:::You have already being told why. ] (]) 15:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


]
::::The dictionary argument while valid, fails to address that people will not know what chains are or what the equivelant convertions to yards or metric are. Without geting out calculators and pencils and searching for a converstion formula. I cannot see a rational for not wanting to avoid ambigutity and remove any possible confusion and at the same time improve the article acesability.--] (]) 15:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I've come across this photograph on Commons, and I would like to identify which sort of DMU this is so I can categorise it. ] (]) 15:32, 13 December 2024 (UTC)


:Probably a ] - see also {{Commons category inline|British Rail Class 105}} ] (]) 15:41, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::The point is, if people were then to use the info here elsewhere they would still need to convert as the units (if metric) would not correspond to other sources of information or worse the INDUSTRY norm. How many times is someone going to have to keep telling you this People who don't know what a "fishplate" is will look it up, why do you think people can't look up what a "Chain" is? I would agree that there is an argument for all relevant railway route/line articles to have a link to a ready-reckoner type conversion table were a conversion can easily be made. ] (]) 16:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
::Just looking at other articles, ] and ] look closer. Not my area of expertise though ] (]) <small>Time, department skies</small> 16:14, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Certainly not a 104 or 108, they have 3 windows across the cab front. ] (]) 16:18, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
:::: It might be a {{brc|112}}? Though I'm not sure how to tell. ] (]) 18:30, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Not easy, they have the same bodyshells, it's the power trains that vary. ] (]) 18:36, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
* Two digit headcode box, it's a 112. ] (]) 21:12, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
*: Or a 113, but you'd need to know numbers to tell that, they're the same bodyshells. ] (]) 21:14, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
*::The 105s also had 2 digit headcodes ] (]) 21:23, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
*It's definitely a Cravens unit (all Cravens DMUs had that window arrangement, which was not used by any other builder), so we have five potential classes: {{brc|105|n}}, {{brc|106|n}}, {{brc|112|n}}, {{brc|113|n}} or {{brc|129|n}}. 129 may be eliminated as being the wrong coupling code and the wrong part of the country; 113 may also be eliminated as they all had four-character headcode boxes mounted in the roof dome, and two marker lights above the buffers. Class 106 all had four marker lights and no headcode box, as did the earlier Class 105 units. However, the later Class 105 units had a front-end appearance identical to Class 112: two marker lights and a two-character headcode. I don't recall coming across the use of Class 112 on the former Great Central main line, it's most probably a Class 105. --] &#x1f339; (]) 22:18, 13 December 2024 (UTC)


== Requested move at ] ==
::::::If you use {{tl|convert}}, then there is an option to wiki-link the unit, which you can do the first time. ] (]) 17:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


See ]. ] (]) 15:04, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Yes that is all well and good but in some cases, such as where a lot of measurements are listed or there are layout formatting considerations) doing so just makes for a more confusing article. ] (]) 17:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


== Too soon / ] ==
::::::::Surly sticking to just one set of measurements which few people have an good understanding of is a bad thing.--] (]) 18:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::A chain is 22 yards, which also happens to be 66 feet; and it is fractionally just over 20 metres - is that difficult for you?] (]) 18:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Having never heard of a chain or used the imperial system in my life, the measuremnts are virtually obsoluete as far as I am concerned. I do though accept that they are used in this case. I may not understand what they are and do as will alot of people, all I say is why not put the metric there aswell.--] (]) 19:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


I am minded to nominate the following for deletion (or blank and redirect) as they have been created way too soon, but wanted to sound out my learned fellows in the project:
::::::::::I've never heard of ] but after looking it up on WP.... Sorry but that is why we have things called ], to look up things we don't know about, or is it me being the thick one here?! ] (]) 20:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
*]
*]
*]
] (]) 08:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)


:I also noticed these, but was hesitant myself on nomination cause at the time, it had been less than an hour since creation. I am not opposed to someone nominating for AfD either; I would assume the creator of all 3 pages (the same user for all 3, to add) was not aware of the policy and just assumed the new TOCs would have the same name, when even we don't know what they'll be called when the new contracts take effect. ] ] 11:21, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Actually I've now changed my mind about chains. Distances such as "10 miles 15 chains" probably don't need an imperial conversion, as most readers will interpret this as "10&ndash;11 miles" which is good enough, although a metric conversion would still be welcome in that case.
::or indeed IF new contracts are awarded, given the political intent to cease the whole privatisation idea. ] (]) 13:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
:::This is a courtesy ping to {{u|Naleork}}. As the user who made these three pages and also added ] categories to the relevant articles, what are your thoughts on this? ] ] 23:20, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
::::: is reporting that the private operators will cease and the government, through ], will take over. If we are going to have articles for potential operators, most of which won't get off the ground, ], ], ] etc, the Virgin one having already survived an AfD, don't see why not for operators that will commence per reliable sources.
:::::The TOCs will have the same names as the trade marks are held by the Department for Transport. Hence why when ], ] and ] were nationalised in the last couple of years, the name and branding was transferred from the private to the government sector operator. ] (]) 23:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::We have no way of knowing what they names will be yet. It's way to soon for articles and it's way too soon to put them in the Toc Template. ] (]) 06:52, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Go-op, Virting Trains, etc. survived AfD because there is extensive coverage of them in reliable sources (i.e. they meet the ]). The same is not yet true for forthcoming operators of the Essex Thameside, East Anglia and South Western franchises. ] (]) 22:31, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
{{od}}
We know exactly what they are called. From the mid-2010s, the DfT specified in franchise contracts what names each TOC was to trade as to avoid the wasteful rebranding that used to occur every time the operating company changes. Hence why ] became Greater Anglia and ] became Great Western Railway when these franchises came up for renewal, but the incumbent operator was successful in retaining. It's why when Northern Trains, Southeastern and TransPennine Express were nationalised, the brands and trademarks all transferred to the DfT OLR TOCs without any compensation having to be paid to the private sector operators. Previously wasn't the case, ] tried unsuccessfully to extract a couple of million out of the DFT for the ] trademark.


In 2021, the DFT renamed all its operator of last resort shell companies from etc to names closely reflecting the existing names including ones to , and . This was at the same time as , and that are the legal entities through which the current TOCs operate.
And I don't think conversion to metric should be ''mandatory''. Some common sense is needed and there may be situations, as mentioned by ], where omission could be justified. For example, I'd accept their omission from line diagrams, to keep the diagram simple. Nevertheless, in my view, conversions ought to be the ideal to aim for, where feasible. It's not difficult, if you use {{tl|convert}}. We shouldn't expect our readers to get out their calculators to perform conversions themselves.


Even if hypothetically these turn out not to be the trading names, not the end of the world. The ] article was established in 2016 as and remained as such until the trading name was announced and the article moved five years later.
So when I said earlier that it should be "project policy", on reflection that was putting it too strongly. It should be a less prescriptive "recommendation" or some similar phraseology. (If we ever get a consensus view, which might be difficult!) --] (]) 18:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


The suggestion that its ] to state that these TOCs are going to commence holds no water, when ] from ] explicitly states they will. The only way I can see that they won't would be if the incumbent operators launched a legal challenge over the DfT actioning break clauses, but there has been no evidence of that.
Ok....... Put Miles, Chains and Feet First. Then follow (if necessary) in brackets any metric equivalents. This should be optional. Most people reading ''English Misplaced Pages'' will be from the UK, USA and Canada that still use Imperial Measurements. Most other English speaking countries are from the Commonwealth, which although may be recently metrified, will understand Miles. PS: For heavens sake a yard is about the same as a metre- don't people have an imagination? ] (]) 18:55, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


Of course they are only stub articles, but as more information becomes available they will expand. Bit like the ] article, not much more in it than the ] article, but it will grow.
:UK railway articles should be in miles & chains first, with metric conversions as appropriate. The only exception to this I know of is ], which should be in Km with imperial conversions. The reason for this is that they were built in imperial measurements originally, thus that is what should be used. ] (]) 19:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


As for not including them in the ], it is perfectly acceptable to include until such time as an ] discussion, concludes that the articles should be deleted or moved to draft space. To date that has not happened. ] (]) 05:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
::First some clarification: Canada and Australia both use the metric system (see ] and ]), having converted in the 1970s and 1980s. That said, the some aspects of the imperial system are still widely used in Canada at least (e.g. fruit in pounds and ounces, height in feet and inches, beer in pints). I doubt that many people would know what a chain is (although many Australians would know that a cricket pitch is 22 yards). Even in the UK, it's only really used by the railway industry. In the USA, yards are not in use: only feet (e.g. traffic signs will say "Exit 1000ft", whereas in the UK such signs are measured in yards).


:You stating things is not the same as achieving consensus. So far I don't see anybody supporting your assertions. ] (]) 11:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
::Regarding the units used on UK railway articles, I do think chains are a problem because they are not widely used (or, in reality, used at all) outside of the railway industry (other than the length of a cricket pitch). Many readers will not know what they are. As I find myself pointing out repeatedly on this talk page, we must remember that the railway articles (along with articles on every other subject) should be written ''for a general audience'', and that background knowledge (e.g. what an obscure unit of measurement is, or what "Up"/"Down" means in a railway context, etc. etc.) should not necessarily be presumed. For this reason, I think they should be avoided if possible.
::A little hard to achieve consensus at 5 o'clock in the morning, don't you think? Naleork's contribution seems quite well reasoned, so if the articles are well sourced then I don't see a problem. ] (]) 16:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)


== Short descriptions ==
::While a significant number of native English-speakers are in the UK, USA, Canada and Australia, the English Misplaced Pages has many readers for whom English is a second language, but who nevertheless can still read it. (For instance, in my office right now, there is an Iranian, a German, a Brazilian and a Ukranian as well as myself, yet we all communicate in English.) Most of the younger generations in northern European countries (Germany, Scandinavia, Belgium, Netherlands etc.) are highly proficient in English, so would be likely to read the English Misplaced Pages to find out information they need (especially about the UK). On top of that, there are vast numbers of English speakers in India, increasingly with access to computers and the internet. So the argument that "English-speaking readers are probably from the USA/UK/etc." is fallacious.


There’s a discussion at ] regarding what constitutes a useful and an overly simplified short description. I’ll be largely unavailable for a few days off wiki, so any other contributions would be welcome. ] (]) 10:51, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::Finally, the issue about using miles and chains only become a problem if there are large numbers of meaurements in an article, which would then become crowded if there were all converted into metres as well. If this is the case, then the article is probably getting too crowded with measurements anyway, and is probably veering towards excessive detail at best, or ] at worst. For instance, the distances on ] (which seem to have sparked this debate) are probably overkill (whether they're measured in miles, kilometres, yards, chains, furlongs, legions, or ]s). --] (]) 21:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
: It's policy at the ] project that descriptions don't have to be meaningful or useful, just conforming to 'short' and some seemingly arbitrary styleguide choices. This is not the first time that WP has made a deliberate, carefully-argued decision to make something completely pointless and useless, but nor will it be the last. So they're just best ignored and don't waste time on them. ] (]) 15:06, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::I've never really understood the point of them. ] (]) 15:19, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The point of them is that someone can use it, in combination with the title, to identify which article in a list of ones that match their search term is the one that they want to read. ] (]) 22:33, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
::::The other value is that they are used by {{tl|Annotated link}} to provide a quick'n'dirty expansion of terse article names in See Also lists that are otherwise only meaningful to the cognoscenti. This encourages visitors to explore further. See ] for the principle.
::::Of course the crazy limitation to 40 characters (specified because of a technical limitation of iPhones. (!) See ]) doesn't help. --] (]) 00:45, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I never add shortdescs, but do check those added by others. The two main things that I look for are: (i) does it exceed "short" (which I consider subjective, I don't stick rigidly to a max of 40 chars); does it redundantly refer to one or more words in the article title. --] &#x1F98C; (]) 16:07, 28 December 2024 (UTC)


== Seaton Delaval ==
:::Regarding use of 'non popular' systems, try writing about ships and boats with out mentioning Knots or Fathoms, are people seriously suggesting that the industry standard is not used, sorry but not only is it non sencical but is bordering on plain 'dumbing down' - if people don't know what a chain is, how long a cricket pitch, what a Knot or fathom is they can look it up - the answer to this problem is not to convert away from the currently used unit of measurement but to wiki-link the terms ], ] or ]. ] (]) 21:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


Does anyone have an up to date photo of the station? It has been open for 2 weeks now. ] (]) <small>Time, department skies</small> 21:03, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Linking to units is certainly an option, and a fairly sensible one. Primarily I was pointing out some of the fallacious arguments and false information that had appeared in this discussion. However, given that a chain is a relatively small unit, it's questionable whether that level of detail is necessary at all: what is to be gained from saying "Chichester is 28 miles 51 chains from Brighton" over "Chichester is 28 miles from Brighton"? --] (]) 23:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
:You might get a response at WikiProject North East England. ] (]) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
::I'm hoping to get up there when I have a free weekend, but that may not be till the end of March. <span class="nowrap"> — ] (]</span> 16:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

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Which sort of DMU is this?

I've come across this photograph on Commons, and I would like to identify which sort of DMU this is so I can categorise it. G-13114 (talk) 15:32, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Probably a British Rail Class 105 - see also Media related to British Rail Class 105 at Wikimedia Commons 10mmsocket (talk) 15:41, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Just looking at other articles, British Rail Class 104 and British Rail Class 108 look closer. Not my area of expertise though Difficultly north (talk) Time, department skies 16:14, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Certainly not a 104 or 108, they have 3 windows across the cab front. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 16:18, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
It might be a Class 112? Though I'm not sure how to tell. G-13114 (talk) 18:30, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Not easy, they have the same bodyshells, it's the power trains that vary. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 18:36, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Two digit headcode box, it's a 112. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:12, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
    Or a 113, but you'd need to know numbers to tell that, they're the same bodyshells. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:14, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
    The 105s also had 2 digit headcodes Murgatroyd49 (talk) 21:23, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
  • It's definitely a Cravens unit (all Cravens DMUs had that window arrangement, which was not used by any other builder), so we have five potential classes: 105, 106, 112, 113 or 129. 129 may be eliminated as being the wrong coupling code and the wrong part of the country; 113 may also be eliminated as they all had four-character headcode boxes mounted in the roof dome, and two marker lights above the buffers. Class 106 all had four marker lights and no headcode box, as did the earlier Class 105 units. However, the later Class 105 units had a front-end appearance identical to Class 112: two marker lights and a two-character headcode. I don't recall coming across the use of Class 112 on the former Great Central main line, it's most probably a Class 105. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:18, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:City Line (Merseytravel)

See Talk:City Line (Merseytravel)#Requested move 18 December 2024. 10mmsocket (talk) 15:04, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Too soon / WP:CRYSTALBALL

I am minded to nominate the following for deletion (or blank and redirect) as they have been created way too soon, but wanted to sound out my learned fellows in the project:

10mmsocket (talk) 08:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I also noticed these, but was hesitant myself on nomination cause at the time, it had been less than an hour since creation. I am not opposed to someone nominating for AfD either; I would assume the creator of all 3 pages (the same user for all 3, to add) was not aware of the policy and just assumed the new TOCs would have the same name, when even we don't know what they'll be called when the new contracts take effect. Jalen Barks (Woof) 11:21, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
or indeed IF new contracts are awarded, given the political intent to cease the whole privatisation idea. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 13:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
This is a courtesy ping to Naleork. As the user who made these three pages and also added WP:TOOSOON categories to the relevant articles, what are your thoughts on this? Jalen Barks (Woof) 23:20, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Every national news agency and industry publication is reporting that the private operators will cease and the government, through DfT Operator, will take over. If we are going to have articles for potential operators, most of which won't get off the ground, Go-op, Virgin Trains, Wrexham, Shropshire & Midlands Railway etc, the Virgin one having already survived an AfD, don't see why not for operators that will commence per reliable sources.
The TOCs will have the same names as the trade marks are held by the Department for Transport. Hence why when Northern Trains, Southeastern and TransPennine Express were nationalised in the last couple of years, the name and branding was transferred from the private to the government sector operator. Naleork (talk) 23:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
We have no way of knowing what they names will be yet. It's way to soon for articles and it's way too soon to put them in the Toc Template. 10mmsocket (talk) 06:52, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Go-op, Virting Trains, etc. survived AfD because there is extensive coverage of them in reliable sources (i.e. they meet the WP:GNG). The same is not yet true for forthcoming operators of the Essex Thameside, East Anglia and South Western franchises. Thryduulf (talk) 22:31, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

We know exactly what they are called. From the mid-2010s, the DfT specified in franchise contracts what names each TOC was to trade as to avoid the wasteful rebranding that used to occur every time the operating company changes. Hence why Abellio Greater Anglia became Greater Anglia and First Great Western became Great Western Railway when these franchises came up for renewal, but the incumbent operator was successful in retaining. It's why when Northern Trains, Southeastern and TransPennine Express were nationalised, the brands and trademarks all transferred to the DfT OLR TOCs without any compensation having to be paid to the private sector operators. Previously wasn't the case, Serco-Abellio tried unsuccessfully to extract a couple of million out of the DFT for the Northern Rail trademark.

In 2021, the DFT renamed all its operator of last resort shell companies from DfT OR1 Limited, DfT OLR2 Limited etc to names closely reflecting the existing names including ones to South Western Railway Limited, GA Trains Limited and C2C Rail Limited. This was at the same time as Northern Trains Limited, SE Trains Limited and Trans Pennine Trains Limited that are the legal entities through which the current TOCs operate.

Even if hypothetically these turn out not to be the trading names, not the end of the world. The Lumo article was established in 2016 as East Coast Trains and remained as such until the trading name was announced and the article moved five years later.

The suggestion that its crystal balling to state that these TOCs are going to commence holds no water, when significant coverage from reliable sources explicitly states they will. The only way I can see that they won't would be if the incumbent operators launched a legal challenge over the DfT actioning break clauses, but there has been no evidence of that.

Of course they are only stub articles, but as more information becomes available they will expand. Bit like the Next United Kingdom general election article, not much more in it than the 2024 United Kingdom general election article, but it will grow.

As for not including them in the TOC template, it is perfectly acceptable to include until such time as an article for deletion discussion, concludes that the articles should be deleted or moved to draft space. To date that has not happened. Naleork (talk) 05:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

You stating things is not the same as achieving consensus. So far I don't see anybody supporting your assertions. 10mmsocket (talk) 11:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
A little hard to achieve consensus at 5 o'clock in the morning, don't you think? Naleork's contribution seems quite well reasoned, so if the articles are well sourced then I don't see a problem. Cnbrb (talk) 16:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Short descriptions

There’s a discussion at Talk:WD Austerity 2-10-0 regarding what constitutes a useful and an overly simplified short description. I’ll be largely unavailable for a few days off wiki, so any other contributions would be welcome. Danners430 (talk) 10:51, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

It's policy at the WP:SHORTDESC project that descriptions don't have to be meaningful or useful, just conforming to 'short' and some seemingly arbitrary styleguide choices. This is not the first time that WP has made a deliberate, carefully-argued decision to make something completely pointless and useless, but nor will it be the last. So they're just best ignored and don't waste time on them. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:06, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
I've never really understood the point of them. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 15:19, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
The point of them is that someone can use it, in combination with the title, to identify which article in a list of ones that match their search term is the one that they want to read. Thryduulf (talk) 22:33, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
The other value is that they are used by {{Annotated link}} to provide a quick'n'dirty expansion of terse article names in See Also lists that are otherwise only meaningful to the cognoscenti. This encourages visitors to explore further. See Guide to information sources for the principle.
Of course the crazy limitation to 40 characters (specified because of a technical limitation of iPhones. (!) See Misplaced Pages talk:Short description/Archive 9#Length – 40 or 90 characters??) doesn't help. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 00:45, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
I never add shortdescs, but do check those added by others. The two main things that I look for are: (i) does it exceed "short" (which I consider subjective, I don't stick rigidly to a max of 40 chars); does it redundantly refer to one or more words in the article title. --Redrose64 🦌 (talk) 16:07, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Seaton Delaval

Does anyone have an up to date photo of the station? It has been open for 2 weeks now. Difficultly north (talk) Time, department skies 21:03, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

You might get a response at WikiProject North East England. Mjroots (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm hoping to get up there when I have a free weekend, but that may not be till the end of March. — Voice of Clam (talk) 16:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)