Talk:Heckler & Koch XM8: Difference between revisions

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	== ~~NOT A FORUM~~ ==		==XM8==
	Misplaced Pages is NOT a forum. To those who would, do not talk about other rifles (like the bit about the SCAR I deleted and the bit about the AUG A3 in Cancelled I deleted), if you want to use other rifles, DO NOT put something like this rifle is better than this one. If you want to do this however GO TO A DIFFERENT SITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

			Hi, has the US military finally made a decision on their new Assault Rifle? Anyone have an external link that talks about what they are up to now? Thanks. ] (]) 21:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
	== Development ==

			:Try reading the article. It says so clearly there. --] (]) 23:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
	I pared down discussion of developmental issues because many of the issues, handguards melting and ergonomic issues, had been solved by that point. Weight was still an issue, though. ] 20:04, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

			:Nope! ] (]) 23:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
	== AR-18 ==

			::Yep! --] (]) 23:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
	Yes, the gas system of the XM8 was based on that of the AR-18, but the G36 rifle cannot be said to be a newer version of the AR-18 any more than the Glock is a newer version of the 1911 because it shares a tilting barrel, enclosed slide, and trigger! The G36/XM8 utilize the Armalite patents (however not the same ones as the AR-18!) for the single guide-rod above the bolt carrier as well as the operating rod system. The G36 utilizes a unique bolt carrier, gas piston, and 'hanging' guide system for the bolt carrier. These are all novel and, as it turns out, newly patented features. This is all technical garb, so I'll not try to insert it into the main article.--] 21:15, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

			:::Do either of the last two editors have any kind of proof to support their answers? ] (]) 01:08, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
	== XM-8 cancelled ==

			== Similarities to H&K G36 ==
	Voir cette info, excuse me, my english is very poor :

			The XM8 has the same cocking handle, similar carry handle and optics, and similar ambidextrous controls as the G36. Is that all that is the same or are the respective actions the same? <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 21:20, 4 June 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20051103.aspx
			:Both guns are the same inside, they use the same mechanics, only the wrapping is different. ] (]) 20:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
			:Basically just a G36 in a different shell, yes. ] (]) 14:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
			Why isn't this at all mentioned in the main article? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:29, 22 April 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			:Because without a valid source to back it up, such a statement would probably be flagged as POV and removed from the article. ] (]) 12:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

			== Why? ==
	:So, what does the future hold for the XM8? Does H&K plan to market the gun to other organizations, or are they prohibited from doing so by their US Army contract? I'd like to know whether the project is dead, or just "on hold". ] <small>( ] \| ] )</small> 02:30, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
	::From the information you can gather from german sources, as well as H&K itself the project of the XM8 as is is dead. US Army has now openend new project for a rifle, and its not sure if H&K will participate again, since they were not happy with the way they were treated in this as well as in other projects (e.g. OICW). If it will, it will probably not with the current XM8 but with a modified version. The problem here is, that the specs are not yet available. According to H&K the XM8 fullfilled all the project goal requirements, and even more. Though then the army changed the goals, and after that the XM8 did not fullfill it anymore and this lead to the project stop and reopen. What the real causes are is not clear, though rumours say its a political reason, together with that the army prefers us manufactured weapons. Some people say that the army wont accept a weapon that was manufactured "by a country that did not participate in the iraq war, just because their constitution forbids it".

			Why did they cancel the program? It seems quite okay to me. Why does it need to be a metal magazine anyway? Okay, well I guess it's just a qualification, but still...--] (]) 02:35, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
	Technically the XM8 hasn't been cancelled, HK is still keeping it for chance that another army/organisation might want to adopt it. Even HK Systems in Australia is promoting it and has a few demo models. ] 09:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

			: It was canceled mostly because it couldn't handle the harsh desert conditions, like Iraq and Afghanistan. ] (]) 14:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
	== Use in Fiction ==

			::No, that's just speculation on your part unless you have a citation to verify that. As far as I know, there's no concrete reason for why the rifle was canceled. ] (]) 23:52, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
	If I remember correctly, I've seen this gun used alongside other standard armaments like the ] on ], usually when you see a large group of soldiers fighting. Can someone verify this for me? --] 00:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

			:::Because it didn't provide enough of an advantage over the current system to justify the cost of replacing hundreds of thousands of up-to-spec M16s and M4s. That, and replacing your standard service weapon in the middle of two wars is likely to cause all kinds of logistical problems for in-theater combat units. ] (]) 14:36, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
	You saw the similar looking G36. The G36 is almost exactly like the XM8
			::::That's just your rationalization. Truth is congress denied funding for reasons unknown. --] (]) 00:12, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
	] ] ] ] ] 19:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
			:::::I'll leave you to play the "blame Washington" card. I prefer to base my "rationalization" on the merits of the weapon itself rather than politics. Even with a piston and the Starship Troopers-style look, the XM8 is just another 5.56mm carbine and wouldn't be anymore effective in combat than an M4 or G36K already is. ] (]) 12:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

			Well, they could have done it slowly. Start with issuing it out to special forces units, like navy seals, wait till the war was over then replace it completly. Just my opinion on the matter. ] (]) 20:59, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

			:Special Operations are subject to logistical complications just like regular forces. And the fact remains that any advantage the XM8 provided over the currently issued and battle-proven M16 and M4 is negligible at best. Not enough to waste hundreds of billions on a new "cool-looking" weapon when those same negligible advantages can be had with much cheaper M16/M4 receiver upgrades. As far as the US military goes, the XM8 is '''dead'''. ] (]) 13:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

			Multiple issues is why it was canceled such as politics, Funding, rival companies, and BS.
	== XM8 for special forces ==
			Also... every time there is a xm8 thread on a game forums.I hate everyone saying that it "melts" or the "battery power is super low" All those issues have been fixed. Alot of people just dont like the xm8... they spread lies and it catches like wildfire.--] (]) 14:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
			:I wasn't aware the XM8 was battery-operated... :P ] (]) 12:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
			::The XM8's built in scope is battery powered..... -.-. Sorry i didn't make my statement clear but i thought a smart person such as you could have notice that.(] (]) 20:53, 1 January 2011 (UTC))

			It failed because it was a G36 with a new shell, and the G36 is not a good rifle. The Germans have never liked the G36 for a variety of reasons, mostly because of all the shortcuts HK had to make to save weight; HK openly admitted the rifle wasn't made for "extended firefights". It overheats badly after a few hundred rounds, and once it does, the accuracy goes progressively and dramatically to crap. Once the barrel is 30C above ambient, tests showed a shocking 7% hit rate at 100 m. That's...simply unacceptable, virtually useless in combat conditions. The integrated sight, which was seen as such a great idea, also failed much more often than they anticipated and the BUIS were so bad and inaccurate you basically had yourself a sleek plastic Wiffleball bat until you could send the thing back to the armorer. The German Defense Minister declared just last April that, after two decades of trying to improve it, the G36 was an unfixable pile of crap and they were replacing it with the HK416, a modded Colt M4. Imagine that. All the conspiracy talk about "outside influences" (presumably from the evil American gun lobby) is mostly nonsense from HK fanboys who play too many video games where weapons never malfunction. HK pulled the plug on the XM8 themselves once it became evident that their no-bid contract was about to fall apart and the weapon would have to beat out the (vastly superior) SCAR, ACR and 416 in any further tests. They knew it couldn't. And that is why the XM8 died suddenly. ] (]) 22:54, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
	I have heard that the SAS might decide to use the SCAR and Xm8. --]] 01:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

			== Opinion ==
	:Doubtful. The XM8 maybe, but until the SCAR even gets into US SOCOM hands nobody will be using it. ] ] ] ] ] 19:11, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
			"The exact reason why this happened is a matter of debate; some combination of the aforementioned technical issues, funding restrictions, and outside pressure being involved."
	::Saw one source lately (HKPRO I think) that said SOCOM may go with the HK416 rather than SCAR-L. ] 08:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
	:::Not a super reliable site, ESPECIALLY on speculation. Besides, its not exclusive: It's almost certain that SOCOM will take both the 416 AND the SCAR-L/H. They will take a whole bunch of weapons for differing uses and mission requirements. ] ] ] ] ] 12:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

			<s>Without a valid source to back it up, that statement is no more than speculation.</s> ] (]) 14:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
	== Cancelled? ==
			:Never mind, scratch that. I misread the sentence. My bad, sorry. ] (]) 15:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
			I agree with the opinion.... Its multiple issues that caused it to be cancelled.....
			is their any independent work on the xm8 today?..... I would like to see this weapon get through its developmental stage.(] (]) 14:35, 6 June 2010 (UTC))

			== Range/effective range ==
	Why did the XM8 have to be cancelled? From what I heard about this weapon it was lighter and better than the M-16 rifle and M4A1 Carbine. --]] 04:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

			Could someone find out the range/effective range of this weapon and add it in? It's relevant. The US Army is currently complaining that the Afghanistan resistance forces' AK-47 has more range than their M16s. - ] (]) 03:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
	] 18:56, 20 May 2006 (UTC)because of numerous problems, including overheating and ammo feeding.
			:See here: - ] (]) 03:56, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
			:An AK outranging an M16? That's hilarious.

			== In Videogames ==
	No, it was due to error in the contracting process. They didn't give other contracters a fair bid at it. The XM8 actually isn't "cancelled". The project is pretty much nearly complete. It's the XM-8 Military procurement that was cancelled. ] ] ] ] ] 19:09, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

			I removed the pop culture trivia section, per the ]. The guidelines say that pop culture trivia sections should be avoided in firearm articles. Only highly notable pop culture information should be noted; for example, Dirty Harry's use of the Smith & Wesson Model 29 was highly notable because it made that revolver extremely popular. A source that establishes the notability of the appearance is needed. For example, , which says that Dirty Harry's use of the Model 29 made it extremely popular. ] (]) 22:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
	Response: It was cancelled because it's a waste of military budget. Why would we switch to a fire-arm with no more performance than an M16, chambered for the same .223 round. The M-16 is a legendary battle proven rifle, it would be the dumbest possible move for the military to do this. There is absolutely no benefit to the XM8 other than it's lighter because it's made of crap. The M16 is stil a better long range weapon and it's more accurate according to hundreds of military testing on the XM8.

			== "Why does the M16 have a higher muzzle velocity?" ==
	Another reason why it was canceled was cost. Instead of using the standard ], it uses a newer system. Admittedly, this system may be better, but it is new and untested. Worst of all, it is not backwards compatible with the picatinny rail, so all of our Grenade Launchers (203's will not fit on the XM8 without modification, due to the placement of the charging handle, right where the cage mount normally sits), optics, lasers, flashlights, and bi-pods, would be useless, and we'd be stuck buying new (expensive) accessories from HK, because they're the only ones in the world using this mounting system. ---] 03:30, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
	:Waste of money? Entire program costs less than one F-22. Overheats? It's plastic, duh? They put heat shields in it... problem solved EARLY ON. Picatinny rails are mostly dead weight The attachment points were used to attach Picatinny rails and were much simpler, adding no weight to the weapon. Picatinny rails are standardized, not the holy grail. The M203 is obsolescent. I think the new weapon is already being made... the M320. Nobody needed to mount all that crap on the XM8, it had an integrated optical/dot/laser sight on the rear bridge. Think outside the box. If you're calling carbon-fiber impregnated plastic crap, then you'd probably have been against the M16 when it was adopted. It's made of aluminum and plastic. You'd have been against the Garand (as the Marines were) because it encouraged spary fire and wasted ammo. You'd have been against rifled muskets because they were slower to load. It's called progress.--] 17:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

			This question appeared at the Science Ref Desk: ]. I have the most recent change to muzzle velocity info in the article, but that still doesn't help here. Is there a good source for it? Is there a well-sourced answer to the question, if indeed the ] does have a higher muzzle velocity, all else being equal? ] ☯ ] 20:21, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
	That is immaterial. Plenty of weapons these days have been designed with plastic furniture, and some even utilize plastic frames, recievers, etc. The point is, when you're using any material, you must compensate for the weaknesses of that material. Pieces that withstand pressure that are made of aluminum must be made thicker than steel, etc. Plastic is fine, but the developers of the XM8 did not allow enough vent room to prevent the plastic furniture from getting too hot. This isn't poor material choice, this is poor engineering. If you have to add something on to prevent a fatal design, the weapon is most likely flawed. Also, I don't know much about the X320, but I bet it's similar to the M203, merely with a new mounting system. Picatinny rails may not be the holy grail, but infastructure is, and this goes completely against it. And don't compare this to the F-22 project, apples to oranges. The budget for replacing assault rifles is always less than the budgets for aircraft, because vehilces will always be more expensive. ---] 20:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
			:M16 barrel is 7.5" longer than the XM8 barrel. Longer barrel = higher muzzle velocity. ] (]) 12:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
			Actually, ''Automatic Rifle'' variant has 508 mm barrel, this is the same length with the M16 barrel. But M16 has 948 m/s muzzle velocity, XM8 has 918 m/s. Its because, they used different 5.56 cartridges in the test firings. ]] 15:18, 20 December 2011

			== Malaysian use ==
	:They fixed the problem. The second generation prototypes had heat sheilds and reported no problems. The weapon wasn't flawed, it was a prototype. The M320 was designed with the G36 and XM8 in mind. Look at the chart... it shows a 320 right there. The picatinny rails ARE a part of the design, but they are held on these 'attachment points'. Rather than having tons of rail on the rifle that isn't used, the rails can be added and removed at will. While you might think the cost of replacing the entire inventory of M16's is high, they have done it twice since the first M16's hit the field. Once with the M16A2 and now, again, with the M4 variants and M16A4 types hitting the market. We already have to replace worn out guns, why not replace them with a more reliable system? And it is a fair comparrison to point out how much an F-22 costs compared to the XM8 or any future small arms program. If they want it, they will buy it. Remember that the ACOG sights are designed for the M16A2 and have to have an adapter for the M16A4 and M4 flat-top carbine. Now, guess how much they're selling this piece of machinery for?--] 23:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

			Nothing here on the railed version used by Malaysia? Information on it's pretty thin on the ground, I'm not even sure what they call it or how they got it. ] (]) 11:32, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
	ACOGs were designed with the M4A1 SOPMOD kit, thus are picatinny mounted. And we haven't replaced all M16A2s with M16A4s. Also, keep in mind that there is legislation on the books that gives the US army an incentive to purchase from US based companies as often as possible. Either way, they decided that the XM8 was NOT the 100% improvement that they demanded, and have opened up the competition for newer, and better designs. The XM8 may be better, but it is most definately not the best choice. ---] 20:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

			I don't think they ended up adopting it, i do know the Royal Malaysian Police and the Malaysian army had done tests with it too.
	:"Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien." Translation: "The best is the enemy of the good." How it applies here is really ironic. The Army, in their infinite wisdom, chose several "Best" solutions along the way... all ended in failure and wastes of money. The reasons are many, but boil down to the Voltaire quote above. We tried to get the best and didn't bother trying to get the good enough. Remember, the M16 was a 'good enough for now' solution at the time, and "the best" was probably waiting right around the corner in undeveloped weapons like the AR-18 and Stoner 63. Had we spent 1/10th of the money spent on SPIW to improve the Stoner or AR-18, we'd have had a better solution then, if not the "Best." If you continue to strive for laser weapons, particle beams, rail guns, and fusion power supplies to the exclusion of practical solutions, you'll end up with neither.
			From memory they had an improved version which used regular picatinny rails along the top where the US version had the integrated sight. ] (]) 02:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

			:If some version actually went into production the article should focus on it, not on the hypothetical capabilities of a proposed weapon system. It'd be good to get more information on the Malaysian contract. ] (]) 21:36, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
	:That 100% improvement quote is arbitrary and stems from the requirement that ACR rifles meet that standard for hit improvement. It was never specified for the XM8. The XM8 was intended to meet reqirements of weight, compactness, and modularity for future integration with another pie-in-the-sky "Best" dream, the OICW.

			== Name? ==
	:You can't argue with something I didn't say. I didn't say the M16A4 '''HAD''' replaced the M16A2, but that process is, indeed, ongoing. You seem to concede that the XM8 was better... how many times over is the M16 going to be replaced with newer versions of itself before we concede that 'better' is, uh, better, than 'best.' We have to first concede that the M16 isn't good. I've made that conclusion and therein lies the impass in any reasonable debate. If you don't think there's anything wrong with the M16/M4, we will never get anywhere debating replacement.--] 23:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

			XM8 was the US military designation... they name all prototypes with an 'X'. We know the US didn't accept it, but other countries have, ie: Malaysia, which means H&K is producing it. But, is H&K calling it the XM8? Is Malaysia? Any other users? What I'm asking is, does this rifle have any other name than XM8? (an official one) I'm primarily asking out of curiosity, but perhaps this article is improperly named. <span style="font-size: 75%;">(in which case, that stupid 'wp:commonname' policy will somehow come up, I'm betting...)</span> - '']'' 21:58, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
	I do not understand your line of logic. Are you saying best, or good enough is the right thing? You seem to say that when we wait for the best, we make a mistake, and if we go with "good enough," it'll be a mistake. If going with the M16 was just "good enough for now" then I say the same applies to the XM8. It's "good enough," but hardly the best rifle we can get. And I hardly care if it's fair to HK that we didn't apply the "100% improvement" doctrine to their XM8 project. The project is for the US military, not a company. If their weapon doesn't meet our standards, they're SOL. Personally, I believe that the M16 series is squeezing as much performance as you can expect out of 5.56x45mm. If they want a wee bit more reliability, they can go with a new upper, or a drop in gas rod. Hell, if they're not willing to change to a superior caliber, that is the best option, new gasrods and bolts for the current rifles, maybe some new trigger groupings. That'll easily bring up the rifles to the exact same, if not better, reliability of the XM8. Optics are easy. But then again, I think they should change calibers, and that changing rifles but not calibers is just throwing money at the subject. But they never asked me. ---] 01:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

			By a similar token I don't think it should be listed as a prototype if it is being manufactured and a military issues it.--] (]) 00:00, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
	:The best is the enemy of the good. It means that if you strive for the best, you will never get the good. HK themselves have learned this lesson over the years. They strove constantly for the best. Look at excellent concepts like roller-locked pistols, gas retarded blowback, caseless rounds, the G11, and many other 'optimum' concepts that rarely made it into full-scale production. They spent loads of money on a concept that laymen and soldiers alike were laughing at. In the end, they did the 'right' thing and adopted several conventional designs like the G36 and USP. You said, "...they decided that the XM8 was NOT the 100% improvement that they demanded," so that's fair game. Nobody demanded the 100% improvement on any level for the XM8. If you "hardly cared" then why did you bring it up to support your argument?

			== External links modified ==
	:At any rate, the argument is that we should replace the M16. It seems that you concede the point. I personally think the FN SCAR is a better -- if heavier -- weapon. And, BTW, there is NO weapon that will ever meet the 100% improvement level without a quantum leap in technology. If you wait for that leap and keep replacing the M16 with, uh, the M16 then you make no progress. We replace our assault rifles about every 20 years now, right? Why not replace the M16 with something incrementally better. Say, with a fully curved mag, integral rail system, and lightweight composites in the receiver. Say, a G36 clone?--] 04:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	Except that the SCAR isn't designed to be a standard issue weapon: it's a limited procurement weapon designed specifically for SOCOM. The XM8 was designed specifically to replace the M4/m16/249 series. Are there better choices? Possibly. I for one can think of ] as a better choice than the XM8 AR variant. I think the ] is a better choice for the marksman variant, or possible the SAM-R or it's variants. However, the M8 has the ability to bring ease of modularity for those. The weapon can be switched out between variants without an armorer, it can be done at the individual soldier level, and it does it more easily and with better parts compatability than the M4/m16 series which we all agree needs to be replaced. ] ] ] ] ] 06:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

			I have just modified {{plural:2\|one external link\|2 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	"It was cancelled because it's a waste of military budget. Why would we switch to a fire-arm with no more performance than an M16, chambered for the same .223 round. The M-16 is a legendary battle proven rifle, it would be the dumbest possible move for the military to do this. There is absolutely no benefit to the XM8 other than it's lighter because it's made of crap. The M16 is stil a better long range weapon and it's more accurate according to hundreds of military testing on the XM8." obviously you're one of those AR supremists , who believe so blindly in it. the M16 is battle proven... proven to be unrealiable in many enivronments , even the US army will fully admit to it , as most soldiers did in reports from iraq and afghanistan. And this so called "crap" that you seem to think the XM8 is made out of , is somewhat stronger then the weak alloy recievers of the M16. want proof? fine check out the Australian Army reports of the steyr aug frame (polymer as well dumbass!) being rolled over by a APC : no damage at all . now try that with an M16 and see what happens. furthermore the M16's accuracy isn't that much better then a XM8 marksman variant.
			*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20050827001951/http://www.pica.army.mil:80/PicatinnyPublic/warfighter/archive/03-18-04.asp to http://www.pica.army.mil/PicatinnyPublic/warfighter/archive/03-18-04.asp
			*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20060819082409/http://hksystems.com.au/xm8.htm to http://www.hksystems.com.au/xm8.htm

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx\|Sourcecheck}}).
	::First of all, Sorry to be late to the party, I would start a new discussion, but this one is already good (albeit a little stale). Does anyone here have PROOF of the reason for cancellation? Documents, a press-release? Since the original question was "why is this canceled" and not "why is this a candidate for M16 replacement."

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false}}
	::Second, it is incorrect to call the 5.56x45mm NATO a .223. Although, yes, it is (and designed off) that caliber, it is DANGEROUS to shooter a 5.56x45 out of a civilian rifle chambered in .223 Remington.

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 17:49, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
	::Third. The 5.56x45 is getting a little stale, but the round works. It has excellent penetration, and longer range than the "enemy" 7.62x39mm the AK-47 uses. The 5.56x45 also has it's limitations, like its lack of tumble and fragmentation when it impacts at velocities lower than 1700fps. As such, the military is looking into other calibers, and the ] is on the table right now. It offers some interesting balistics, but has a shorter range than the 5.56x45. The 5.56 has an effective range of 300 yards, while the 6.8x43mm has a shorter range. However, when engagements are happening at less that 150 yards, the point is moot, as a DMR can cover up to an effective range of 600 yards.

			== External links modified ==
	::ALSO! Many rifles today are being chambered in all three calibers; 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO, and 6.8 SPC, so even if the M8 is accepted , it can be easily configured to fire the 5.56, 6.8, or 7.62 should the military require it. I also agree with Asmas10's point about "being good enough." We replaced the M14's with the M16 in Vietnam because we needed something different to fight in those conidtions. If an weapons designer would develop a rifle based around what is needed today, there would be a better chance of acceptance. What do we need today? No idea, not a strategist, but I get the feeling the military knows what it is.] 01:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	Be careful when you type somthing. I don't know were you got your information but the range part up here is wrong. Range has to do with both rifle and round. A 5.56x45, when fired from an M4 has an effective rang of 500 metres, thats more than 300 yards. However a 6.8x43,when fired from an M468, which is just an M4 chambered for a larger round, has an effective range of 600 metres.

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	:Why was it cancelled? --] 05:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
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	::I don't know! That is what I want to know! I just found it amusing that you guys got into such a huge debate about it. ] 02:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
	:Point 1) reread my post. I'm TELLING you why it was cancelled. Point 2) It's not amusing when your M4 short-strokes after leaving a round in the chamber with the rim ripped off of it. You may live in a different world than I do, brother, but over here we need the guns to go BANG! Amuse yourself all you want, these are real lives being put in Jeopardy.--] 03:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	== XM8 and G36 ==

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 05:49, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
	The H&K XM8 is a futuristic version of their G36 assualt rifle. The US government spent who knowns how much on a gun that is already in use but with a Buck Rodger look to it.

	::Except for the fact that...it's not. They ended up with a design similar to the G36 but with superior performance. May want to leave your biases at the door. ] ] ] ] ] 06:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

	::The M8 and G36 are developed by the same company, it would make sense to use a system that already works. The weapon however, is not the exact same, just similar.] 01:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

	Yes the XM8 is similar to the G36. The XM8 is based off the G36 platform. But the XM8 is lighter, more reliable. more accurate, more modular and has less recoil. In short it's not the same.

	== Will it be used? ==

	Will the United States Army use the M8, or will they wait for a Future Force Warrior weapon substitute? (A caseless rifle of some sort?). I know the Special Forces are using the SCAR.

	They should, but they most likly won't unless someone high up raises alot of hell. The XM8 is more reliable than an M4 and lighter too. As for caseless, I doubt that that would happen any time soon. Caseless tech is still in its early stages and is alot like Dragon Skin body armor.It will work well if it doesn't come into contact with water. If that happens the ammo comes apart.

	== Small Caliber? ==

	Does anyone else think that replacing the M-16/M-4 is a waste of time without uppping the size of the round?

	Yes. It takes a 5.56x45 mm round 3-5 hits to kill a target. A 6.8x43 mm round takes 2-3 hits to kill a target. The difference is how many bad guys are still shooting at you when you have to replace your empty mag.

	I do. The m16 is not worth replacing until the Army can find a truly next-gen weapon. The M8 is better, but not enough better to be worth replacing the m16. Still, jams are a constant pain in the butt.






	Well, let out a sigh of relief. It is all but confirmed that the M8 will not go into US Military service. The Army/Marines will be stuck with their m16's for another five years until the Future Force Warrior has them using caseless rifles and heat seeking pistols and whatnot.

	:Don't forget to sign your posts, people!

	The smaller caliber is irrelevant. The 5.56x45mm NATO has a longer effective range and greater penetration over the heavier and slower 7.62x39 seen in the AK-47. However, the 7.62x51mm NATO is used, and since most Assault Rifles these days are being chambered in 5.56, 7.62, and 6.8mm, you shouldn't need to worry.] 01:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

	:Longer effective range (meaningless in most real-world engagements, which usually take place at distances of under 200 meters) and greater penetration (minor issue in most cases; it's not like many terrorists are wearing body armor with ceramic plates), but the issue is lethality. The point of any military round is the kill the enemy, and whether 5.56x45 is the best choice for that role is very much open to debate. ] 09:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

	Caliber is very relevant. It's harder to kill someone using a 5.56x45 rifle and considering that our enemies inject themselvs with adrenalin and meth before they engage us makes it harder.

	== Funding and Spending ==

	What I'm trying to figure out here and I've been to many sites is how much the military actually blew on this as well as the XM29 before some pencil pusher decided to make this huge expense a ''real'' waste!
	:Not a ''real'' waste or anything of the sort. It was a drop in the bucket. Try the ] submarine or the ] flying dorrito. How about the ], ] programs. The ] ''uber-tank''. Youre prespective is skewed because you believe that tons of money were spent in vain. As one who's actually had my hands on some of this hardware, troops are SCREAMING for a more effective infantry weapon. The OICW allowed the user to fire a grenade NEAR where the enemy was and the warhead would detonate after traveling a certain distance. Therefore, aim at an exterior wall, pickle, add 2 meters, fire through adjacent window, and the grenade would explode in the center of the room, not at the opposite side or on contact with the window. Enemy ducks behind a hardened wall or into a trench. Same thing. Pop, boom, dead. Wonderful concept and technology will catch up with it. How far have cell phones come in the last few years? The technology for a GPS guided grenade is here. Soon, troops might be able to pickle a target a mile or two away and fire bursts of GPS guided grenades to rain down upon the enemy from a high ballistic trajectory.

	:The XM8 is lighter, more reliable, and superior in various ways to the M16. As one whose M16 has jammed... more than a few times... I can say that I'd like a more reliable gun. As one who has carried 90 pounds on a ruck, web gear, ammo, and M16, I can definitely use a lighter gun. As one who's handled both, I can say I prefer the XM8. Now, I'd probably prefer the SCAR but I ain't touched one yet. Darn the luck. (sign your comments next time). --] 01:09, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

	::The advantages don't help the troops much when the Pentagon chairborne division decides "nah, we'll keep buying M4s instead". ] 09:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

	Nice use of the word chairborne.(] 20:57, 1 September 2007 (UTC))



	Well, I've found it. So many people, even some on the right side are mad how much of our tax dollar goes into the military. Drop in the bucket? That could've built at least two schools!
	] (]) 20:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)The Youth Counselor

	BS. Nobody is mad at how much is put into the military, people are mad about how the money is being misused in the military by politics (like buying expensive yet ineffective armored HUMVEE's and poor excuses for body armor and rifles). People, mostly those with family in the military, often go off and buy things for their family members that the military won't issue even though these items are better than standered issue equipment (think Dragon Skin Body Armor). Army's pissed, bans items, wastes money trying to enforce ban. What's worse is the military buying the same thing over and over and calling it new (M16A2 and M16A4 are basicly the same rifle with minor enhancements, M4 is also the same but shorter, but what happens when you shine crap, you get shiney crap). If they are going to buy something it needs to BE new and significantly better, because this is not a waste. Take the M16, it needs to be replaced. Why don't we replace it with something significantly better, like the XM8? Oh and BTW, as far as military programes are concerned, this is a drop in the bucket. Guess how much we spend replacing all the parts from the M16s that need to be replaced because the M16 is not meant for the harsh deserts. Guess that and you will find that replacing parts from this rifle alone fills more than half the bucket.] (]) 05:23, 19 January 2008 (UTC)13tawaazun14

	==M8 in us service?==
	If the m8 project was cancelled why is the us listed as a user? and germany and malaysian police are listed as users too did the m8 project get started again?

	:*I suspect someone copied and pasted the infobox from another weapon to here. There are a lot of incorrect statements made within. ] 05:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

	==Reliability==
	Looking at H&K's other current assault rifles the claimed reliability doesn't seem especially unlikely. If you have any references to the contrary, feel free to restore the sentence I removed. ] 23:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
	== Continued development ==
	It should be mentioned that a the XM8 is basically still beind developed by HK, as the "GVM8", just with some minor changes (mainly the sight, which has a US Govt. license). It was recently presented to a Malaysian gun paper
	See here -> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/camneus/xm8malaysia_01.jpg ] 08:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

	== References ==

	The article (and the references) gives no explanation as to why the AR was read. ] 01:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

	== Weight of the XM8 Grenade Launcher ==

	It says here that the XM8's launcher is heavier yet in the XM320 Launchers page it says that it lightrer which obviously contradicts what it says here can someone find the right answer and change it <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

	== No mention of the rifle on their website ==

	Anyone know why the XM8 isn't listed on H&K's website? ] (]) 00:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

	:They had it at the SHOT show and submitted it several times through the years to the US government for various tests. They have never offered it for sale as a regular product, though. They already have the G36 family that serves exactly the same function. --] (]) 01:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

	::Most of the rifles on their website aren't for sale as a regular product though. They have the HK416 on their website, but it's not offered for sale. I don't see why they don't have the XM8 as well. Do you have any websites on any news regarding the XM8? ] (]) 01:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

	:The other models are tooled and in production. The XM8 was never in production and the factory never tooled fully for production. HK offers all of the weapons on their web site for sale to agencies on various levels. The XM8 development contracts were all cancelled. HK submitted a modified XM8 for consideration for the SCAR program. They also provided XM8's for recent comparrison testing in heavy dust for the US Army. Again, if you're looking to buy the XM8, you'd have to look at quantities in the 4 or 5 digit range before HK would tool up for production. --] (]) 02:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
	::Will they sell to foreign countries like India or China? Are they still working on the XM8? ] (]) 14:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

	:::You're unlikely to get an answer because, well, Misplaced Pages is not a forum. You seem all for adding what doesn't belong and reverting other's who try to remind you of the rules. Read ]. --] (]) 00:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

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Archive 1

XM8

Hi, has the US military finally made a decision on their new Assault Rifle? Anyone have an external link that talks about what they are up to now? Thanks. Green Squares (talk) 21:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Try reading the article. It says so clearly there. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 23:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Nope! Green Squares (talk) 23:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Yep! --Nukes4Tots (talk) 23:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Do either of the last two editors have any kind of proof to support their answers? Spartan198 (talk) 01:08, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Similarities to H&K G36

The XM8 has the same cocking handle, similar carry handle and optics, and similar ambidextrous controls as the G36. Is that all that is the same or are the respective actions the same? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shortstack2012 (talk • contribs) 21:20, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Both guns are the same inside, they use the same mechanics, only the wrapping is different. 85Pando (talk) 20:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Basically just a G36 in a different shell, yes. Spartan198 (talk) 14:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Why isn't this at all mentioned in the main article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.235.206.240 (talk) 04:29, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Because without a valid source to back it up, such a statement would probably be flagged as POV and removed from the article. Spartan198 (talk) 12:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Why?

Why did they cancel the program? It seems quite okay to me. Why does it need to be a metal magazine anyway? Okay, well I guess it's just a qualification, but still...--Rollersox (talk) 02:35, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

It was canceled mostly because it couldn't handle the harsh desert conditions, like Iraq and Afghanistan. Thegreene2010 (talk) 14:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

No, that's just speculation on your part unless you have a citation to verify that. As far as I know, there's no concrete reason for why the rifle was canceled. ScienceApe (talk) 23:52, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Because it didn't provide enough of an advantage over the current system to justify the cost of replacing hundreds of thousands of up-to-spec M16s and M4s. That, and replacing your standard service weapon in the middle of two wars is likely to cause all kinds of logistical problems for in-theater combat units. Spartan198 (talk) 14:36, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

That's just your rationalization. Truth is congress denied funding for reasons unknown. --87.152.118.13 (talk) 00:12, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll leave you to play the "blame Washington" card. I prefer to base my "rationalization" on the merits of the weapon itself rather than politics. Even with a piston and the Starship Troopers-style look, the XM8 is just another 5.56mm carbine and wouldn't be anymore effective in combat than an M4 or G36K already is. Spartan198 (talk) 12:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, they could have done it slowly. Start with issuing it out to special forces units, like navy seals, wait till the war was over then replace it completly. Just my opinion on the matter. 71.79.110.221 (talk) 20:59, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Special Operations are subject to logistical complications just like regular forces. And the fact remains that any advantage the XM8 provided over the currently issued and battle-proven M16 and M4 is negligible at best. Not enough to waste hundreds of billions on a new "cool-looking" weapon when those same negligible advantages can be had with much cheaper M16/M4 receiver upgrades. As far as the US military goes, the XM8 is dead. Spartan198 (talk) 13:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Multiple issues is why it was canceled such as politics, Funding, rival companies, and BS. Also... every time there is a xm8 thread on a game forums.I hate everyone saying that it "melts" or the "battery power is super low" All those issues have been fixed. Alot of people just dont like the xm8... they spread lies and it catches like wildfire.--68.54.58.58 (talk) 14:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't aware the XM8 was battery-operated... :P Spartan198 (talk) 12:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

The XM8's built in scope is battery powered..... -.-. Sorry i didn't make my statement clear but i thought a smart person such as you could have notice that.(Steve4529 (talk) 20:53, 1 January 2011 (UTC))

It failed because it was a G36 with a new shell, and the G36 is not a good rifle. The Germans have never liked the G36 for a variety of reasons, mostly because of all the shortcuts HK had to make to save weight; HK openly admitted the rifle wasn't made for "extended firefights". It overheats badly after a few hundred rounds, and once it does, the accuracy goes progressively and dramatically to crap. Once the barrel is 30C above ambient, tests showed a shocking 7% hit rate at 100 m. That's...simply unacceptable, virtually useless in combat conditions. The integrated sight, which was seen as such a great idea, also failed much more often than they anticipated and the BUIS were so bad and inaccurate you basically had yourself a sleek plastic Wiffleball bat until you could send the thing back to the armorer. The German Defense Minister declared just last April that, after two decades of trying to improve it, the G36 was an unfixable pile of crap and they were replacing it with the HK416, a modded Colt M4. Imagine that. All the conspiracy talk about "outside influences" (presumably from the evil American gun lobby) is mostly nonsense from HK fanboys who play too many video games where weapons never malfunction. HK pulled the plug on the XM8 themselves once it became evident that their no-bid contract was about to fall apart and the weapon would have to beat out the (vastly superior) SCAR, ACR and 416 in any further tests. They knew it couldn't. And that is why the XM8 died suddenly. Vintovka Dragunova (talk) 22:54, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Opinion

"The exact reason why this happened is a matter of debate; some combination of the aforementioned technical issues, funding restrictions, and outside pressure being involved."

~~Without a valid source to back it up, that statement is no more than speculation.~~ Spartan198 (talk) 14:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, scratch that. I misread the sentence. My bad, sorry. Spartan198 (talk) 15:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the opinion.... Its multiple issues that caused it to be cancelled..... is their any independent work on the xm8 today?..... I would like to see this weapon get through its developmental stage.(Steve4529 (talk) 14:35, 6 June 2010 (UTC))

Range/effective range

Could someone find out the range/effective range of this weapon and add it in? It's relevant. The US Army is currently complaining that the Afghanistan resistance forces' AK-47 has more range than their M16s. - Richard Cavell (talk) 03:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

See here: - Richard Cavell (talk) 03:56, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

An AK outranging an M16? That's hilarious.

In Videogames

I removed the pop culture trivia section, per the firearm project guidelines. The guidelines say that pop culture trivia sections should be avoided in firearm articles. Only highly notable pop culture information should be noted; for example, Dirty Harry's use of the Smith & Wesson Model 29 was highly notable because it made that revolver extremely popular. A source that establishes the notability of the appearance is needed. For example, this source, which says that Dirty Harry's use of the Model 29 made it extremely popular. ROG5728 (talk) 22:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

"Why does the M16 have a higher muzzle velocity?"

This question appeared at the Science Ref Desk: Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Science#Why does the M16 have a higher muzzle velocity?. I have reverted the most recent change to muzzle velocity info in the article, but that still doesn't help here. Is there a good source for it? Is there a well-sourced answer to the question, if indeed the M16 rifle does have a higher muzzle velocity, all else being equal? WikiDao ☯ (talk) 20:21, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

M16 barrel is 7.5" longer than the XM8 barrel. Longer barrel = higher muzzle velocity. Spartan198 (talk) 12:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Automatic Rifle variant has 508 mm barrel, this is the same length with the M16 barrel. But M16 has 948 m/s muzzle velocity, XM8 has 918 m/s. Its because, they used different 5.56 cartridges in the test firings. Avatar9n talk 15:18, 20 December 2011

Malaysian use

Nothing here on the railed version used by Malaysia? Information on it's pretty thin on the ground, I'm not even sure what they call it or how they got it. Herr Gruber (talk) 11:32, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think they ended up adopting it, i do know the Royal Malaysian Police and the Malaysian army had done tests with it too. From memory they had an improved version which used regular picatinny rails along the top where the US version had the integrated sight. 58.174.241.157 (talk) 02:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

If some version actually went into production the article should focus on it, not on the hypothetical capabilities of a proposed weapon system. It'd be good to get more information on the Malaysian contract. Rezin (talk) 21:36, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Name?

XM8 was the US military designation... they name all prototypes with an 'X'. We know the US didn't accept it, but other countries have, ie: Malaysia, which means H&K is producing it. But, is H&K calling it the XM8? Is Malaysia? Any other users? What I'm asking is, does this rifle have any other name than XM8? (an official one) I'm primarily asking out of curiosity, but perhaps this article is improperly named. (in which case, that stupid 'wp:commonname' policy will somehow come up, I'm betting...) - WOLFchild 21:58, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

By a similar token I don't think it should be listed as a prototype if it is being manufactured and a military issues it.--204.9.182.3 (talk) 00:00, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

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